Judging Freedom - U.S. Sending Cluster Bombs to Ukraine - Good Idea? w/ Tony Shaffer

Episode Date: July 10, 2023

USA has announced that it will supply CLUSTER BOMBS to Ukraine as part of a new $800 Million Support Deal that takes the total amount of support provided by the USA to over $40 Billion. Cluster Bombs have been BANNED by over 120 countries and their use is highly controversial.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Resolve to earn your degree in the new year in the Bay with WGU. With courses available online 24-7 and monthly start dates, WGU offers maximum flexibility so you can focus on your future. Learn more at wgu.edu. Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Monday, July 10, 2023. Larry Johnson joins us now. Larry, of course, a pleasure. Thanks very much for your time today. You know, just when we thought the Prokosian stuff was behind us, the Kremlin announces that President Putin invited Yevgeny Prokosian and its 35 senior commanders to come to the Kremlin, and they met. I haven't seen the photos, but apparently there are photos

out there that the Kremlin has put out. So what was this? A stunt, a coup, a temper tantrum? It's increasingly looking like that Prokofiev was used by Putin and the intelligence service as bait for the West. And the West took the bait and swallowed it. Because there was fully the expectation in the United States and in the United Kingdom that Prokofiev was going to march on the Ministry of Defense and overthrow Shoigu and Gerasimov and that Putin would be on his way out. They were really banking on that. And then it didn't happen. And so now the fact that Prokofiev is still walking around alive and he's being invited to this kind of meeting, that tells me that he was a complete tool.

He was used and he was compliant in being used. I think the argument you make is a credible one. The fly in the ointment is he killed Russian soldiers. He shot down helicopters and people died because of this. Yeah. Well, what happened is when, so if you're staging a fake coup, let's call it what it was. I mean, it was, it appeared to be legitimate from the outset, but you're not going to tell all your lower level guys, hey guys, we're just kidding. We're not really going through with this. So some of the lower level guys may have acted on their

own initiative and you know that got out of control but but the fundamental point remains that the russian intelligence was aware of what what uh progression was doing they had pre-positioned forces to interdict anything that the Wagner group would do. And, you know, I think it's always the possibility that this got out of hand. But as you correctly note, these guys died. And if it was, if Prokosian was really a traitor, he'd be dead by now. The fact that he's walking around seems to, around seems to confirm that he was a ploy. He was a bait. Do intelligence communities, I use the word loosely, so I'm talking about the CIA, the FSB,

MI6, et cetera. Do they do these things to each other just to embarrass them, embarrass their adversaries? I mean, might the FSB have set up the CIA so they had that briefing the weekend before and told the gang of eight in Congress, here's what's happening. It's a real coup. It's going to happen. We're not behind it. We know about it. We're not going to interfere with it. We're not going to warn Putin. And it turned out it was a dud in order to embarrass the CIA. No, embarrassment is just a peripheral, you know, let's call it just collateral benefit. The reality is the Russians were aware that Western intelligence agencies have been trying to subvert and destroy Russia. They recognize that the United States intelligence service is a hostile

force, and they have to be prepared to deal with that. And to that end, their counterintelligence capabilities are far better than that of the United States. And so I'm not sure at what point they became aware of Prigozhin's activities. I think Prigozhin was sincere in his desire to betray Russia initially, but he got flipped and became a cooperator. And to that end, it was not so much to embarrass the West, but to frustrate any attempt by the West to subvert Russia and embarrassing them as just sort of a collateral benefit. Were those photos that we all looked at and which we showed here on Judge and Freedom last week that showed the raid of his headquarters and the discovery of gold bars and Prokosian in a wig and a disguise, was all that a fraud? No, no, no.

I think it's real. Part of it is this is the price Prokosian is going to pay. You know, he will be stripped of his wealth or some of it. He gets to live. You know, that may be the deal. You know, you cooperate with us. We're not going to kill you, but we're not going to allow you to continue to live in unbridled luxury.

There will be a price to pay. So that also feeds into the public narrative of damaging Progosian's image and putting him in that category of these despised oligarchs. We're taking a look at some of the things that were found. I mean, this one now has the faces blurred, but it supposedly was severed heads. There's weapons. We saw him in the disguises. There's gold bars. There's a Russian uniform with medals that he didn't earn. He has no personal military background. Ten billion Russian rubles. Can that be true? Yeah. No, I think it's very true. But what fascinates me about this is, I'll call it the Western obsession with Prokofiev. And it highlights

the erroneous belief in the West that the Russian military power boils down to the Wagner Group. And so that whatever the Wagner Group does, it's either a sign of Russian military strength or weakness. And I think the Russians are happy to put Prokhorin and the Wagner Group out there to just distract Western attention, or to focus its attention on Wagner while they ignore what the actual military in Russia is doing. The Russian army is far larger and it's far better trained and equipped than the Wagner Group. Well, Wagner is a very small operation by comparison, but you couldn't tell that if you look at the coverage in the West.

They exaggerate the capabilities. What has become of the Ukrainian spring offensive here the second week in July? A bust. You know, it's the summer blockbuster that was promised and nobody showed up to buy a ticket for it. The amount of equipment that's being destroyed is devastating to Ukraine. Even worse is the loss in manpower. They're being killed and wounded in huge numbers. And they're not making any significant advances on Russian territory. You know, a few kilometers here or there, but they still haven't even reached the first line of defense.

So that's what, and in fact, it's gotten so bad, as Joe Biden admitted the other day, that the United States is finally going to, we're going to send 155 millimeter cluster bombs to the Ukrainians because we no longer have the ability to produce the conventional shell and Ukraine's running out of it. And so we got, this is all we have left. And it's a bunch of old ammunition that's been in storage. And in contrast to the claims that, that oh it's going to be highly reliable that's ridiculous here's uh admiral kirby on cluster bombs the president made the decision to send cluster munitions they are banned in so many places around the world including most of our allies why Why send them to Ukraine?

Simple, this is about keeping Ukraine in the fight. You were just there. You talked to President Zelensky about the counter offensive and in some ways it's not going as fast as he would like. They are using artillery at a very accelerated rate, Martha, many thousands of rounds per day. This is literally a gunfight all along from the Donbass all the way down towards Zaporizhia and Kherson. And so they're running out of inventory. We are trying to ramp up our production of the kind of artillery shells that they're using most. But that production rate is still not where we want it to be. So we're gonna send these additional artillery artillery shells that have cluster bomblets in them to help bridge the gap as we ramp up production of normal 155 artillery

shells. So you're sending those cluster munitions because we don't have enough of the kind of munitions they need. That is right. Wow. Well, a couple of a couple of questions. How dangerous, how reckless Tony Blinken, Lloyd Austin, Jake Sullivan, Joe Biden, is it for us to have depleted our substantial American need for artillery weapons? Question one. Question two. Had you heard anywhere, Larry, before yesterday, Sunday, that the Russians were using cluster munitions in Ukraine? Yeah, no. Last question first, no. The Russians were not using it. The U.S. was claiming they were using it as a propaganda ploy. But now going back to the first question, the United States has stripped its industrial capability. And Kirby's talking

about, yeah, well, we're ramping up to start producing. And you've heard Jake Sullivan say the same thing. And I tell you what, by the end of next year, the United States will be in a position, in one year, we'll be able to produce the amount of shells that Ukraine right now is firing in one month. So just do the math. In other words, the United States is never in the foreseeable future going to produce enough artillery shells to keep Ukraine in the fight. But you know what? It's going to become moot after December, I believe, because there is no way Ukraine can sustain itself in this combat operation with the loss of manpower and equipment that it's experiencing. Should the Secretary of Defense resign if the President

asks him to deplete the supply of an essential armament for the defense of the United States of America? If he had any integrity, which he doesn't. So, you know, the reality, Judge, you realize why do people ban this cluster of munition? Because the munitions themselves look like small balls. And who picks up a ball

to throw it? Kids. A child. Yeah. So it is, it's really, it's a horrendous weapon from the standpoint that when those bomblets fall, they don't all explode. And so it's laying around and the kids being kids, they're going to pick it up and throw it. Some adults may do so as well, but this largely is for kids. I mean, that's the downside of it. Plus, these things, I think Scott, you know, Scott was on your show recently, noting that these ammunition, these pieces have been in storage for quite a while.

And while they're insisting that, oh, yeah, they have a low failure rate, that's nonsense. They have a high failure rate, which means when it explodes, it's going to scatter a lot of these bomblets that are not going to go off, and that will pose a hazard. And you're going to have to have somebody, you know, explosive ordnance demolition teams go out to try to clean those up. Here's President Zelensky over the weekend being asked about the counter offensive. What is your assessment of how the counter offensive is going right now? All of us, we want to do it faster because every day means new losses of Ukrainians. We are advancing.

We are not stuck in one place. We've already overtaken the initiative. Several months ago in some places in the east we had to retreat. In some other communities we would regain lost ground. But it was kind of a stagnation, meaning loss of manpower and equipment. And of course we would all like to see the counter-offensive accomplished in a shorter period of time. But there is reality. Today, the initiative is on our side. Sounded like he was being relatively candid until the last line there.

It sounded like he knew he was losing, but was trying to put a good face on until he said he had the initiative. Have Ukrainians even touched the first of the three rings of Russian defenses? No. And it's like that line from the Princess Bride, the movie, you know, Zelensky's using the word initiative. I don't think you understand what that word means. You know, he's speaking a word that doesn't translate into the reality. They have not penetrated even the first line of defense. They have suffered massive casualties, not just, you know, minor, but massive casualties. And equipment, I mean, even showing the video that was on ABC, you know, it looked like a junkyard, a flaming, smoldering junkyard

of tanks and armored personnel carriers that have been blown up. They don't have... The reason the offensive doesn't progress is Ukraine does not have mobile air defense systems, mobile artillery, and combat aircraft

that can go up and create, pose a credible threat to the Russian entrenched forces. I mean, it's that simple. And so there's not enough lipstick in the world to paint this picture, Judge. What you said earlier is so terrifying to me. Does the American public realize that the reckless foreign policy of the Biden administration has depleted the Defense Department? Can you tell me if I'm overstating this, Larry? I know you'll be candid. Is depleting the Defense Department, there's Chris weighing in, of an essential component, an essential weapon, an essential projectile needed to defend the

United States. No, not a clue. In fact, the best evidence of that was an interview, a podcast that Ray McGovern did with a former NPR correspondent named Robert Scheer. Now, Scheer is in his 80s. But when Ray was just telling him the truth about what was going on on the ground in Ukraine, Scheer was he was flabbergasted. No, no, no, that's not true. Russia's losing. The majority of American people actually believe that Russia's losing, Ukraine's winning. One of these days there's going to be a wake up call where reality is going to intrude and they're going to realize they've been sold a pack of lies for the last 18 months. Let's get to NATO. I'm going to have to get up and close the door since Chris wants to get involved in this.

Were you surprised? I will step away for a second while you're answering. Were you, now he's listening to me, were you surprised at the announcement over the weekend by President Erdogan of Turkey that he, in an unbelievable backstabbing to President Putin, is now in favor of Ukraine becoming a member of NATO? Yeah, I was surprised by that.

And I think it's a sign of Erdogan both, he keeps trying to play both sides of the fence and it's going to catch up to him at some point. Russia, I think it's probably grounded in anger in a couple of areas. One, he's angry at the Russians because the Russians are crushing the Syrian rebels that Turkey has been backing. So these Islamic extremists that Turkey has been funding to try to overthrow the government of Bashar al-Assad, Russia's crushing them.

And then on top of that, Russia signaled that it's going to abandon the Green Deal because the Green Deal was being used by Ukraine to smuggle in armaments and other things. So, you know, Russia is going to put that to rest. So I think a little bit of this was peak on the part of Erdogan. But, you know, Erdogan, I think, has made a mistake. Yeah, it's going to make him look better at the NATO summit because he had been under pressure to let in Sweden. So, you know, now he'll probably be able to keep up his, I'm not letting Sweden in because they desecrated the Koran, but he will be able to say, hey,

I'll look at everything I'm doing to support Ukraine. I'm going to build a drone factory with drones that don't work. I'm going to, I want Ukraine to become a member of NATO right now. So, you know, it's just, I think it's more for show for the West. Isn't he also looking for Turkey to become a member of the EU? Turkey is a member of NATO, but it's not a member of the EU. I can't imagine that happening, but doesn't he want that? Yeah, which is what a bizarre request. You know, there was a time when the hell, it was cool to join the Hell's Angels,

but now that you've got a bunch of 80-year-olds on motorcycles that have to wear pants, that's not exactly the club you want to join, and that's exactly what Turkey's wanting to do. I mean, Europe is in decline. Europe is in trouble. You know, look at, they're facing some significant economic headwinds.

Militarily, they're a bust. Turkey has the second largest army in NATO. So Germany, France, and UK combined don't even match what Turkey has in terms of manpower. And they want to join that mess? It doesn't compute. What is this rumor that came out over the weekend that Turkey helped save high-ranking American officers trapped in Mariupol in eastern Ukraine? Yeah, there were always rumors circulating back when that battle was raging a year ago, May, that there were high-ranking U.S. officers there. I frankly, I don't give a lot of credence to it for just this reason. One, just talking to friends who are still involved, there were never any hints whatsoever of any kind of concern about high-ranking U.S. officers trapped at Mariupol, number one. Number two, if they'd actually been released, you can bet that somebody would have been talking about it.

We're not just talking about one guy. If you've got three, four, or more, that word is going to spread. The grapevine exists. And so I think this was more designed as part of propaganda operation and information warfare to put out that message to suggest that Russia was actually cutting secret deals with the United States behind the scenes. Larry Johnson, always a pleasure, my dear friend. Thank you so much for joining us. All right. Thanks, Judge. More as we get it. Colonel McGregor this afternoon. Jack Devine. I'm going to let him have it this afternoon as well. Judge Napolitano for Judging

Freedom. Thanks for watching!