Judging Freedom - Wagner boss Prigozhin Presumed Killed in Plane Crash w/Scott Ritter

Episode Date: August 23, 2023

Wagner boss Prigozhin Presumed Killed in Plane Crash w/Scott RitterSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Thank you. Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Wednesday, August 23rd, 2023. It's about 2.30 in the afternoon here on the East Coast of the United States. Scott Ritter joins us now. There is, of course, breaking news want to call it, coup against President Putin earlier this summer has been killed in a plane crash. There were other reports that there were two planes carrying the Wagner leadership and Mr. Prigozhin was in the other plane. There's a report that the plane was taken down by an explosion of some sort. Was it a missile? Was it a bomb? Was it a malfunction? We will get to all of this as best we can. And of course,

as breaking news develops, we'll give it to you. But who better to discuss the Russian mentality, the Russian concerns, the Russian military, the power of President Putin, the inner workings of the power groups at the Kremlin, than a man who spent much of his adult life studying at Scott Ritter. Scott, thank you for joining us. What do you see as the probable and likely, more likely than not scenario here? Well, you know, as somebody who was in the intelligence business, I learned a long time ago that you don't call something dead until you actually have eyes on the target, see the dead body, and confirm it. We learned that lesson in the Gulf War regarding Scud missiles, both in terms of Patriots not shooting them down and our aircraft and Delta Force not killing them on the ground. Having said that, if Evgeny Prokhorin was alive, if Dmitry Utkin was alive, there would be, I believe, positive communication. It would have been made with either one of those individuals at this point in time,

and people would be saying, no, we're in contact with them. The fact that people closest to Rogozhin are saying no comment, then according to some sources, confidentially telling others that we don't have any contact with him, suggests that more likely than not, he was on that airplane. But again, until you see the body, I wouldn't confirm it dead. Gary, can you put up the B-roll of the crash? Now, that's the crash. It would be almost inconceivable that anyone could have survived that. It's theoretically possible, but it's pretty devastating. The plane itself seems to be consumed by a fire. This is from a Russian television station, the camera folks of which rushed to the scene we also have a video of the plane coming down we obviously don't have a video of what caused it to come down can we go to the plane coming reports to be the player there's that purports to be the plane itself coming down in a field somewhere outside of Moscow. The plane was flying from Moscow to St. Petersburg.

And apparently on the plane with Mr. Pergosian, let's put this picture up uh was not only uh progession but the actual military commander the guy who helped found you can get that picture up guys the guy who helped found uh the wagner group and who does the military commanding with progession a little scary looking there but that's i'll just just say that the photograph on the left is not Utkin. That's not him. It was put up there by anti-Putin people because the man has SS runes tattooed on his shoulders. Utkin is the guy on the right with the circle around his head, a heavily decorated Special Forces veteran of the Russian Army. But the man on the left, the scary looking bald dude dude with the Nazi runes, is not Uthgen.

That's information, yeah. That's good to know and much appreciated, Scott. Would Vladimir Putin, would the Vladimir Putin you've studied and analyzed and interpreted have caused this plane to come down by having the military shoot at it? Let's put it this way. Putin called the actions of June 23rd, 24th treason, and there's a penalty for treason. Putin also negotiated a settlement to prevent the potential or possibility of a civil war that would have killed thousands. That had Prigozhin basically taking exile in Belarus. But Prigozhin has been traveling freely back and forth, basically violating the terms of his parole. During the St. Petersburg Africa Summit, Prigozhin was holding a shadow summit meeting with African leaders negotiating deals with Wagner behind the scenes.

He was just negotiating deals to sell food, which is what made him a billionaire, or negotiating deals that purport to be on behalf of the Russian government, which he does not represent? Neither. He was carrying out private business between Wagner and these African nations, one would believe, in concert with Russian foreign policy objectives, which at that summit were to provide necessary security assistance. But the point is, he was in St. Petersburg, where he's not supposed to be. He was banished to Belarus. Vladimir Putin gave a very interesting interview several years ago

when someone said, can you forgive? He said, yes, except for one thing. Betrayal. Progression and betrayal. Here's that very idea, Scott. I'll voice it over because it's in Russian with English subtitles. Are you able to forgive Putin? Yes, but not everything. What is impossible to forgive? Putin. Betrayal. Putin, yes, but not everything. What is impossible to forgive? Putin, betrayal.

You were also harsh about betraying you in life. Well, you know, I didn't want to talk about it, but I can't really welcome the idea that I've had to deal with any kind of serious, serious event that could be called a betrayal. No such maniac in my life. Afraid, are you? It's hard to say. Maybe I picked the people, the right people, the people who aren't capable of that.

Let's just run the very beginning again, Gary. Are you able to forgive Putin? Yes, but not everything. What you able to forgive? Putin, yes, but not everything. What is impossible to forgive? Putin, betrayal. All right, back to Scott. So there it is. I mean, that's the core of the man.

It's not the core of the man. It's the core of almost any leader. You know the line from Shakespeare. I think it's Shakespeare. When you strike at the king, you must kill him. Yeah. A pre-ocean. What happened on June 23rd, 24th is just literally unthinkable for anybody who claims to be close to Putin, who claims to know anything about Putin.

I'm neither. So I'm somebody observing from a distance. But you're right. If you're going to take out the king, kill the king. They made a bold move towards Moscow. I mean, people need to understand the scope and scale of what happened. 8,000 troops with tanks, with anti-aircraft systems, with artillery moving towards Moscow, the capital of Russia, in a way that was without any approval. They deployed for combat outside of the village of Serpukhov against Russian troops,

and they were prepared to have a fight on Russian soil, something that hasn't occurred on that scope and scale since the Russian Civil War. They shot down Russian military aircraft, they being Wagner. Utkin was the military commander. They murdered 12 Russian service members, murdered because what they did wasn't war. It wasn't self-defense. These were unlawful bandits operating without any legal authority, threatening the leadership of Russia. And yet they still came out of it alive, only because Vladimir Putin made the decision that he, for the greater good of Russia and the Russian people, was going to avoid the circumstances that would create a civil war. But he was strict. He said, I will pardon you for these acts, but the conditions of the pardon are, you go to Belarus, you're done here.

Proposition violated the terms of his parole. And one would think that that might play into what happened here. Because I'll tell you this, the way the plane went down, it lost a wing. You don't lose a wing, generally speaking, from an internal explosion, say a bomb inside the aircraft. That would lead to a rapid decompression of the aircraft, but the aircraft would retain a semblance of aerodynamics and move forward. When you lose a wing, that's generally because you've been hit by a surface-to-air missile and you've now lost aerodynamics and you're pancaking in, which is what that plane was doing.

You know, again, that's just a brief examination of the evidence. But, you know, it's been exactly two months since Prokofiev shot down the Russian airplane that lost eight men. Exactly two months. I would say that it's sort of bitter irony if, in fact, Russian air defense brought down the man that murdered 12 of their fellow certain leaders. When the coup took place and then ended peacefully and without any military or legal or judicial or even extra legal repercussions against Prokosian and his fellow mutineers, in fact, the mutineers were expressly pardoned, the neocons and the globalists in Western Europe and in the United States said, see, Putin's weak. Putin can't control things. Putin fled the city. Putin escaped by the skin of his teeth. I doubt they're saying that now, Scott. Well, first of all, the people that said that,

frankly speaking, don't know anything about Vladimir Putin a he wasn't weak uh but you know I I did an interview with a guy uh Vladimir soloviov he's a very powerful media figure in Russia you can hate him you can love him you can be indifferent about him but you can't ignore the fact that he's one of the most influential um you know media forces in Russia and uh he's met Putin and I asked him tell me about Putin. He said, well, the thing about Putin, he said, is he listens. He listens to everybody. And then he thinks, he contemplates. And when he takes a decision, when he acts, he does only for the benefit of Russia and the Russian people. He doesn't care how it impacts him. And this is a critical thing because in the West, we oftentimes, we project a mirror image of how we think.

And we know how American politicians think and behave. What's good for me? How can this be to my advantage? They don't think about the greater good. They think about themselves and their political position. Putin doesn't play that game. So when he acted in June, he acted in a way that opened the door for people to be critical of him. But he avoided a civil war. He avoided thousands of deaths. He saved Russia. He saved Russian lives.

But that doesn't mean that he's weak. It doesn't mean that he's weak. Scott, we have a huge audience right now for which I'm deeply grateful. I want to remind the audience of Progozhin's ranting and raving and threatening, which preceded the coup in June. Watch this. Yeah. Вот это вот парни, чувака Вагнер Которые погибли сегодня Еще кровь свежая Сними все I realize my mic wasn't open.

There you go. You'll recall that Prokosian threatened Defense Minister Shoigu and said he wasn't interested in the defense of the homeland. It didn't know how to wage a war. The world is so different now. Why is Ukraine losing so badly? They're losing badly because of Shoigu and Gerasimov. They're losing badly because of Shoigu and Gerasimov. They're losing badly because of effective military commanders. Remember, I mean, Prokofiev is criticizing Shoigu, the man who's been at the helm of the Russian Ministry of Defense in a conflict where Russia is enjoying an 8 to 10 to 1 kill

advantage. That's unprecedented modern warfare. That is, for every Russian soldier dying, there's eight to 10 Ukrainian soldiers dying. So the Russians are clearly doing something right. What Prokofiev did in June wasn't about doing the right thing by Russia. It wasn't about the troops. It was about business. He lost his contract because a private military company can't exist on Russian soil. And Lugansk had gone from being an independent entity to being part of Russia. The contract expired on May 1st of 2023.

And Prokofiev was trying to bully and pressure people into extending the contract. And he was calling out Shoigu and Gerasimov as the culprits, the people who were threatening his financial well-being. And let me say this too about Prokofiev. Wagner, from what I understand, and I've met them, I've spoken with some senior leaders in communication with some of their commanders and their fighters, very tight unit, very tight, very loyal to the brand. But the brand is Russia at the end of the day. Their organizing document clearly states that Wagner can do nothing that's critical of Putin or anything that's against the interest of Mother Russia, the nation. So it's a patriotic organization. The Wagner soldiers are very, very patriotic,

very, very hard fighting, patriotic people who like Wagner because they can avoid the bureaucracy and the lumbering mythology of command that comes with the army. They have a shortcut, they have a system that works for them. But they're not anti-Russian. And many of them were disgusted by what happened in June and are relieved, in fact, that they're out of this nonsense. And they are heavily engaged right now in Africa. Ironically, Boghossian was just in Africa, I believe, on the Mali border, bragging about the role that Wagner was playing in fighting ISIS. And yet he returned to Russia where he's not allowed to be. If Bogosian is dead, if the plane was shot down by Russian military forces, how is President Putin perceived in Russia?

Look, the Russians love President Putin. I mean, he enjoys the highest ever approval rating. I can guarantee you this, that Putin's hands will not have the blood of Prokhorin on them. Whatever happened, it's not going to be linked to a presidential order um but um you know there's some people say this is karma some people say it's justice delayed but i i think there'll be very few russians who will say he didn't have it coming to him. Evgeny Prokhozhin, for everything he did and everything his organization did for Russia, murdered 12 Russian servicemen. Murdered them.

How will, in your view, if at all, Prokhozhin's death affect the fighting in Ukraine? How will it affect the morale of the Ukrainian troops? How will it animate, if at all, the Russian troops? How will it affect President Zelensky and his folks? No, it's so, I mean, Wagner's done in Ukraine. The 30,000 troops they had in Lugansk have left Lugansk. There's nothing left. No, no, I mean the image of Progozhin's plane being shot out of the sky a month after or two months after he tried a mutiny that was essentially resolved peacefully, two months after he murdered 12 Russian troops and destroyed two Russian helicopters. How will that be perceived by the Russian military on the ground?

Will it demoralize the Ukrainians? Will it terrify Zelensky? The Russian troops, I think, they may have personal opinions, but frankly speaking, they're alive today because they haven't allowed outside thoughts like that to interfere with their daily routine of combat. They're frontline combat soldiers. They stay alive. They prevail because they remain singularly focused on the task at hand, which is to close with and destroy the Ukrainian enemy through firepower maneuver. And that Yes. But there's some things I can't forgive. And betrayal is one of them. Remember, we're dealing with the Ukrainian president signed a peace agreement back in March, or had his government signed a peace agreement back in

March of 2022 that could have ended this war and saved tens of thousands of Russians' lives, hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian lives. And Zelensky betrayed Russia by ripping that up and walking away. That's a betrayal, and Zelensky will pay a price eventually. Does the death of Prokofiev shorten the war? Not at all. Prokofiev was out of the war. He was done. Prokofiev's, you know, Wagner was exclusively engaged in combat operations in Africa and in training Belarus forces. And I'll point this out. Prokosian was not a critical element of this.

Utkin was, but Utkin was tainted. Utkin was a man who killed 12 Russian servicemen. And so the patriotic members of Wagner, remember, 36 members of Wagner, including Prokosian and Utkin, met with Putin shortly after, less than a week after the coup was brought down. They met in the Kremlin and Putin gave them an opportunity to do the right thing, joined the Russian Ministry of Defense and all that. And the majority of them wanted to do it. Prokosian said no. And so Prokosian's gone.

Utkin's gone, according to the news. Maybe they're alive. Who knows? The senior staff is gone. Wagner, as an entity, still exists, and they're commanded by people who want to do the right thing by Russia. So Wagner's there. Wagner will continue to be there. Wagner will continue to operate on the ground in Africa. Remember this, while Progozhin was in Ukraine screaming about the dead bodies and what commander shows his dead troops on camera. That's unthinkable, but he did it. Africa was being run by a separate Wagner command staff that was there for a year, experts on Africa. They're still alive. They're still doing the job. They're not going to skip a beat. Here's the question I was going to ask you before the news about Prokofiev broke. How much longer will the war go on? We are rapidly approaching the culmination of what I call the process of collapse.

The Ukrainians have run out of troops. They've thrown their strategic reserves into the Battle of Robitino in Zaporizhia, where the campaign started two months ago and two and a half months ago in June. Same village, same place. They haven't cracked that nut yet. And their last reserves are being spent. They're already finding they don't have enough troops to man the line

continuously up north in Kupyansk. The Russians are advancing, stretching the Ukrainian lines thinner. There are no troops. They're going to have to rob Peter to pay Paul. And eventually, you're going to see that the front line is going to lack the continuity. And Russia has a quarter of a million reserves they could put in to exploit those gaps. I think what we're going to see in the coming month is the compelled withdrawal of the Ukrainian army to the Dnipro River, because they will be unable to hold their line.

They will move to the Dnipro River, and then Russia has a decision. Do they ask the Ukrainians, do you want to live? Do you want to have peace now? Or do they pivot south and go and take Odessa and finish the fight? But the bottom line is the Ukrainian army, I don't believe, could maintain its viability as a fighting force much longer. They're out of troops. Russia's not out of troops. And it's going to become very difficult for Ukraine to hold the positions they currently occupy. Looking down, a lot of you are asking, is there a confirmation on

Prigozhin's death? I'm watching the wire services and the various feeds that I get, still from my former employer, and there's no confirmation on his death yet, nor is there any proclamation that, in fact, he is alive. I guess we're just going to have to monitor this as it goes, Scott. Last question. Is President Putin stronger today than he was two and a half months ago before the coup. Yes, because Wagner was a problematic entity at that time. Wagner was out of control. You can't be strong as a national leader when you have a private military force

capable of putting 8,000 troops on the road to Moscow. That was an unthinkable action, and it was greatly harmful to Putin, to Russia, etc. Putin resolved that issue. Did Prokhorin and Utkin need to die? I don't know the answer to that. I believe in due process, and if they committed a crime, I believe they should have been arrested and tried. That's the way it's done. But when you carry out acts of treason on that scope and scale, on that level, when you threaten the president of Russia in a time of war, you're not long for this world. That's the bottom. I said it then. I'm on record.

They're not long for this world. And unfortunately for them, today may be the day that they checked out. Scott Ritter, you're turning on a dime. And neither of us, none of us thought this was going to happen when he woke up when we woke up this morning, even at lunchtime when we scheduled your appearance. Deeply appreciated, I know, by the many, many people watching us now and certainly by me. All the best to you, Scott. Thank you. Thank you. Wow. If you like what you saw and our ability to turn on a dime and our ability to bring you the most up-to-date and insightful analysis on events that affect lives around the world,

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