Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald - Donald Trump and Apprentice in Wonderland

Episode Date: July 4, 2024

Ramin Setoodeh and I discuss his new tell all book about the hit reality show, "The Apprentice." In his latest book "Apprentice in Wonderland: How Donald Trump and Mark Burnett took America through the looking glass," we get the inside juice from the boardroom to the celebrities. Ramin interviewed Donald Trump several times as well as many former famous and non-famous contestants of the show. No matter where you stand politically, this is a fascinating part of pop culture and now American history. Enjoy! Go to https://Booking.com. This summer you can book whoever you want to be on Booking.com, Booking.yeah! Book today on the site or app. Go to https://ProlonLife.com/JUICYSCOOP . Right now, Prolon is offering Juicy Scoopers 15% off their 5-day nutrition program. Shop Juicy Scoop Merch https://juicyscoopshop.com  Get EXTRA Juicy on Patreon https://www.patreon.com/juicyscoop  Follow Me on Social Media Instagram: https://www/instagram.com/heathermcdonald  TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@heathermcdonald  Twitter: https://twitter.com/HeatherMcDonald Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Listen in, listen up. Woo woo. Hannah McDonald. Juicy Scoop. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. Well, I'm excited for you guys to hear this interview. This is return guest, author Ramin Seyeddeh. He was on previously when we talked about his book Ladies Who Punch which was all the behind-the-scenes

juicy stories about the view. Well now he's done it for The Apprentice. The book is Apprentice in Wonderland and you guys are gonna love it. It's very juicy and very interesting. Let's get into it. How are you? I'm great love it. It's very juicy and very interesting. Let's get into it. How are you? I'm great, Heather. Thank you so much. You were so kind to my first book

and I'm really, really excited to talk to you about this one. Well, it was such a fun book. All the, and if you haven't read that one, go get it. Cause you guys will love it. It's just, so what made you, you also are, you know, right for variety and many other, you know, right for variety and many other, um, you know, outlets. What made you decide to kind of tackle the apprentice? So you and I are both huge apprentice fans. We love the show. And when I was in my twenties,

I actually was covering the show at Newsweek. I was a young reporter at Newsweek and I would um, watch the show. It was very aspirational and it taught a lot of people about business or so it said it did. And you could really imagine yourself being on the show competing, trying to win Donald Trump's approval. And at the time being a young reporter, I would always call Trump Tower and Donald Trump loved doing press so much. He would always go on the phone with me. He talked to me. He'd answer my questions. And so we kind of developed a connection back then. And I always thought about the show, you know, as he became president, as things changed in our country, I always thought about this show and how influential it was

to Donald Trump's story. But also how entertaining it was. It's a really good reality show. Well, I'm like you, you know, with the age of my kids, this was one of the shows that one of the first shows that we kind of watch like as a family and like that and Shark Tank or like our favorite shows. And you know, when it first started out, it was regular people. And you get into that with, what's his name? Rancic, who, you know, married Julia. And then I feel like how many seasons was it then just all celebrity? Because didn't it never went back to regular people after a while? It was seven regular and then seven celebrity. And they actually needed the celebrities because it was kind of during the era of Dancing with the Stars and skating with celebrities.

And there was all this reality because celebrities used to be very scared to do reality back in the early days of reality. And then when it became okay for celebrities to do reality, they needed to jumpstart the apprentice. There was questions about the ratings. It wasn't doing that well with the regular people. People lost interest in the show. And so when they surrounded Trump with all these celebrities and had Joan and Melissa Rivers screaming about how Melissa had been fired. You're a poker player. And that was the first time I saw like what a mama bear Joan was with Melissa.

And now I knew Melissa personally, but at the time I didn't. And I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. But I can totally see it as a mom too of why when they did this together, that was so good. Yeah. And all of that, I talked to a lot of producers and contestants, all of that was unscripted.

It was real. Joan Rivers was very upset that Melissa was fired and lost her temper and stormed out of Trump Tower with Melissa in solidarity. And so surrounding Donald Trump with all these celebrities ended up making the show continue to be successful for seven more seasons. And there's just so many hilarious moments

of Trump interacting in the boardroom with these celebrities or celebrities trying to win his favor. And it wasn't a winning formula. It really worked on reality TV. I remember, okay, so we always, you know, I loved it too. And I was always like, God, if I ever got on a show I would rather do Apprentice than Dancing with the Stars or certainly

more than I'd ever want to do like Amazing Race or like physically like Really Taxing. But then I was auditioning for the original talk and I was- Oh, you were, I didn't know that. Yeah. So I like it was, you know, I was on Chelsea lately, but my agent was like, you know, was, you know, I was on Chelsea lately, but my agent was like, you know, there's an all day testing thing for the talk. And it actually fell on a day that like we were not working or we were on a hiatus. So I was like, okay, legally and morally, like I'm not lying to anybody. We'll see if I get this show. So it was like an all day matching and in walks Sharon Osborne and then in walks Holly Robinson Pete.

And they did not get along on the apprentice, at least from what I saw. They didn't get along, yes. So I was like, holy shit, like what is gonna happen here? But I remember Sharon Osborne, I started asking all the questions and she was like, oh my God, you know, you, you have to do your own hair and makeup unless you hire someone to come meet you in New York

at 5 a.m. You're working all day long to put these events together. And then I was also like, now, is it true that you're really calling your friends for money and favors like in real time? What is the answer to that one? Cause remember they'd be like, we're putting on an event for whatever. I'm gonna call Toby Keith. Or kind of like let them know prior, hey, I'm going on this show in a month. I might be calling you for a favor. What did you learn?

They would flag that they would call people, but in order to get on the show, the celebrities were grilled about who their friends were. And it was actually a way to get more famous people on the show, either on the phone or in a cameo. And they use that as a criteria for deciding which celebrities would make the cut and which ones wouldn't. So it was definitely a criteria to get on the celebrity apprentice. And a lot of celebrities wanted to be on the show because it gave them such a publicity boost. People were watching the show on Sunday nights on NBC.

There were two-hour block episodes that boardroom scenes were really long and did well on social media. It was seen as maybe a little bit more high-brow than some of the other reality TV shows because it was aspirational. It was about business, it was about trying to succeed in the boardroom, it was about trying to raise money for charity. So it had kind of a smarter element to it than say dancing with the stars,

which was just about how good you could dance with your ballroom dancer. That's a really great point too, because it's like whatever celebrity background, whatever made you a star, everybody wants to prove that they're not dumb when you're in the arts. You're not just a dumb country singer, you're not just a hot pinup girl, whatever.

And so by being like, okay, let me see if I can actually pull off a great event or make a lot of money. You're right. And I'm looking back and I don't really remember anybody, even if there was drama, where it like being on the show hurt them, it only helped them and only made them more known. And had a maybe a memeable moment. But like, yeah, that is very true.

Here's Morgan told me that when he did the show, because he was the winner of the first season of celebrity apprentice, he was on America's Got Talent, right? But people didn't know him in the same way after he won the apprentice, he said people would recognize him on the street. It helped him get Larry King's job on CNN because they realized this Brit was a winner. He had survived in Donald Trump's boardroom

and it gave him a whole new level of fame that he didn't have prior previously to being on the show. I also loved that he used his kids. As someone now who has, you know, my son who you just saw, you know, works with me, especially he's got one year left to college, but then after that he will work with us in a higher capacity.

Having your kids like be part of your business. And the fact that they, you know, were good at that too, because they had all gone to college, they'd all had learned. So I liked that the kids were featured. And I remember being on Chelsea lately, and she wasn't watching the show. And I was like pitching some sketch about the apprentice. And all of a sudden, I just could do, you know, Ivanka's voice. Which was always like very like, thank you. We are in front of the Nabisco Center. As you know, it is an amazing cracker. And today your challenge is to introduce the new red pepper Nabisco cracker. It's always stuff like that. And I loved her style and that

she was so fashionable. So it was always fun to have her. And then those board meeting moments were so, yeah, they were so fun. And then, so there was a time when there was, so much controversy going on in our country that you'd be like, oh, but remember how fun that was? And like the theme song of of money, money, money. I wish they could, in doing your research, did they ever try to bring it back in some

capacity without him? And who would maybe be that new host? So, one of the revelations of my book that I learned in reporting the book was that when Donald Trump ran for president, he actually wanted Ivanka to replace him. And he wanted Ivanka to run the boardroom. And he wanted Eric and Don Jr. to be the judges sitting by her side. And NBC thought the show needed to go in a different direction. They were concerned because the Trump family was entering into politics. And so they actually brought in Arnold Schwarzenegger, who didn't do that well on the show.

Oh, I remember that. That was when they did it in LA, right? Oh yeah, that was just not it. His catchphrase was you're terminated. And also Martha Stewart tried to do The Apprentice back in 2005. Remember when she came out of jail? Is that when Bethany Frankel was on it? That's how Bethany Frankel became famous. She was the runner up that season. And so other people have tried to do the show, but for whatever reason, Donald Trump

is the only person who successfully hosted the show. And I think it's because he's so good at improv, he's so good at the back and forth, he takes himself very seriously on the show, but also really likes the contestants. And I have a whole chapter about the Martha Stewart season and why it was such a huge failure, but Martha wasn't actually that interested in the contestants. She wasn't that engaged in the contestants. She didn't really understand like what the point of any of it was.

And she also was wearing an ankle bracelet because she was under house arrest. So she couldn't spend that much time on the set. So she wasn't like Trump loved hanging out with the contestants. He'd do all these challenges and rewards and invite them over to dinner. But for Martha, it was just a job. It wasn't her life. And for Donald Trump being the host of The Apprentice was his life. He loved it. He thrived on it. It was like the greatest gift for him. Yes. And it's true when you see stuff. And it's the same thing with anybody like, you know, when who really loves the job or not, especially like it's a talk show or something. And you know, when someone's just like cash in a check or their agent talked them into

doing it, whether it's a celebrity that gets a podcast that doesn't last or, you know, you're like, oh, I can see why that didn't let you weren't into it. Someone talked you into doing it. But with the Martha Stewart one, so it was only the one season and that was the Bethany season, correct? It was the Bethany season and Bethany couldn't win that season because she had dated the son of one of the judges. And so they were worried it would be scandalous if she ended up winning.

So she ended up being the runner up and then she ended up making millions of millions of dollars. So they clearly picked the wrong winner. But the other real legacy of the Martha Stewart version was that Martha had her daughter Alexis on. And when Donald Trump saw that, he realized he'd been toying with it, but he realized that this could really be a stepping stone for his children because they hadn't been in front of the cameras. They hadn't been famous. They were more private. So wait, so we're okay. So the apprentice started and in the beginning, the first season,

he didn't feature the kids? No, it was George and Carolyn. Remember those two? No. They were his advisors. Carolyn was a blonde in her 30s that worked in the Trump organization. And George was an older attorney

that worked with Trump for years. And they were just his employees that he picked at random and said, you know, Mark Burnett came in, pitched the show. I need two people to be on the ground with the contestants. I'm too busy. And so he brought in these two associates and Carolyn actually became really, really famous on the show.

People really liked her. She was a cool handed woman in the boardroom, a young woman that kept up with Trump. But when he decided to bring Ivanka in, Carolyn got the axe and they fired her. And Ivanka then came in and replaced her. Okay. So, okay. That's interesting. So, that's how he kind of got the idea of like, why am I not using my own kids? Yeah. And I also remember, so then when Bethany, there's like a clip going around. So Bethany

gets her own talk show and she has Martha come on. And it's kind of a really funny thing because she's like, you know, basically like you didn't like me. And she's like, no, I didn't. I didn't find you. Like it's like, I can't remember what it was like. No, it's insane. Martha's like, I didn't like you. And that is the exact reason why Martha Stewart didn't succeed as host of The Apprentice because she didn't like you. And that is the exact reason why Martha Stewart didn't succeed as host of The Apprentice, because she didn't like the contestants. She wanted nothing to do with them. She thought she was regal and above them. And for Trump, he was smart in that he used the contestants to

promote the Trump brand. So he would bring on the contestants like Bill Rancic, and then they would go on a road show together and they travel together. And Trump knew that every time Bill did an interview, he could talk about how great Trump was. And it was an extension of his brand. And it also allowed him to bring in more attention, to bring in more advertising,

to be at the center of the media. So Trump, even though all these apprentice winners were supposed to go work for Donald Trump, he really employed them as publicists and spokespeople for the Trump organization. And they were supposed to be running like the company as a president, but they were really there to like bolster Trump's image.

So you said there was seven seasons of regular people, seven seasons of celebrities. How many years? Cause I guess there was maybe two seasons a year. Like how many years did this show go on for? And from what to what? It was from 2004 to 2015. Wow. And it was in the early days of reality TV.

And the one other really interesting thing was that Trump's payment structure was very different. So they paid him initially $25,000 an episode for season one. But Mark Burnett, who had been an early adopter to reality TV, he'd obviously created Survivor, had this idea that he could get the money from product placement.

So when they sold the show to NBC, he said, you guys can, we'll come, we'll give Donald Trump a low salary, but if this becomes successful, we get to keep all the product placement revenue. And at the time, Jeff Zucker was running NBC and didn't really understand what that was worth. And so Mark Burnett and Donald Trump

split every dollar they made from every advertiser that came on the show. So Carr would come on, Lexis would come on, they would pay them, Donald Trump said $5 million. And Burnett would take two and a half million and Trump would take two and a half million. So he ended up making $213 million on The Apprentice for those 14 seasons, but it wasn't necessarily through his hosting salary. It was through this backdoor product placement salary that he was getting. And now of course networks are much savvier

and they would never give that money away. But Donald Trump being sort of in the early days of reality TV was able to cash in on all those. That's why like a lot of the episodes were, you're talking about like Nabisco or Alonzo. Yeah, it worked out perfectly. That's why they were so complimentary to all these brands because they were basically running an advertising company

where they were raking in the money doing these tasks and bringing in Mattel or bringing in Pepsi or bringing in whatever brand it was to have the contestants vibe for that brand's approval, but also to get the paychecks. What was some like juicy scoop that kind of, that I may have not heard of that you uncovered in covering this subject?

So what was really interesting to me was the reason why Celebrity Apprentice happened was because of the writer's strike in 2008. And so NBC had actually canceled the show. And they were going to- Oh, so from 2004 and five and six, it was on with the regular people and then it got canceled? They didn't announce it, but it was canceled.

I talked to the executive behind that and he told me it was canceled. They were done with it. They were going to move on. And then the writers went on strike in 2008. And because they went on strike, NBC didn't have any programming. And so that's when Ben Silverman, who came in as the new head of the network, came up with the idea to put celebrities in the boardroom with Trump. And Trump actually was reluctant initially because Mark Burnett didn't think he'd want to share the spotlight with anyone.

But they talked to him, they convinced him, they told him it was basically like he'd be getting his own Sunday night movie, two hour blocks of The Apprentice, and he was talked into it. And he wasn't initially enthusiastic about the celebrities because he didn't know who a lot of them were. But once he realized the show was working and the ratings went back up, he became very, very excited. So yeah, go ahead. The other thing that I uncovered that was really interesting is that Trump loved the boardroom. It was his favorite part of the show. And so we kept asking the producers to make the boardroom longer and longer. So initially, even though on TV it's like 10 minutes, 15 minutes, sometimes he would go on for four hours talking to the contestants,

holding court, being dramatic, asking questions. He just really loved that opportunity to have improv. And he, one of the arguments of the book is that he really is an actor. He was playing this part and it kind of melded with his personality, but he loved the boardroom scenes. And at one point he even wanted to tell Mark Burnett to just make the show about the boardroom,

which didn't make any sense because you'd have to have the contestants competing to win something, but the boardrooms kept getting longer and longer and longer as they were filming the show. And did he have any say in the final edits? He didn't have, he was an executive producer. He didn't really get too involved in the editing

because he deferred to Mark Burnett, but he liked to say that he had final say over the winners. And so sometimes the network would give him notes and they'd say this fire, this person fired that person. And then he would go rogue in the war room and just decide to fire someone else based on how they answered his questions. Or he would play mind games with them or quiz them

or try to see how brutal they were in terms of attacking their other contestants. And he liked to test people to see if they would deliver and perform for him. Going back to when you said about the writer's strike, I've mentioned this briefly on my show, but when I started on Chelsea lately, I was there from the beginning to the end, seven and a half years and only like a month or two in the writers, actor strike happened. And I was a member of the writers, the writers, and they had to come in legally and say, if you'd like to join your comrades on the

picket, whatever you can, but you don't have to. And I, you know, and I'm like, well, no, I'm not going to like, this is this is my job that provides for my family. But we were the only game in town because we were on cable and we were not writer's guild. We were on E. And so tonight show, David Letterman, all those shows, everything went off and we had just started. And I really believe that a big part of the success,

the luck of the timing of people getting used to this different format of a late night show, which wasn't Chelsea just doing a long monologue of jokes. You would see the monologue topical jokes among different people and improv and all that stuff. And it was a really unique thing that people really liked. And I think that, it is interesting. And I remember when the COVID stuff started and I called, I was talking to two of the executive producers who then produced David Spade's show at the time, which is very similar. I can't remember what it was called, but it was David Spade show. And they hadn't put me on because they were like, you're too familiar and we don't want

this to look like Chelsea lately. So finally I got a date to go on and then they shut down the show. Like the date was literally like March 23rd and we've shut down March 20th. But I remember, you know, they didn't know how long they'd be shut down. But I remember I wrote them and I was like, remember this is what popped off Chelsea lately. If there's any way that you guys could get around and still film, you'll be the only game in town. Well, of course you couldn't, you know,

with the government and stuff. But like, that is one of the reasons why I think like, even my podcast kind of popped off a lot is because a lot of people were like, oh, we're told we can't work, then we won't work. And I was like, well, I'm still working. I'm going to still put out a show. And there were a few podcasts that did that that never missed a beat. And so it is really kind of interesting. Looking back in entertainment, like when you're the only game in town, like people get into it. And once they're into it, they don't really leave.

And if it hadn't been for the strike, the apprentice probably would have been canceled. So you would not have had this continuation of the show. Donald Trump at the time was thinking about maybe hosting a talk show, which I don't think would have necessarily played to strengths or doing something different. He was trying to get on Fox Business, maybe with his own show, but the show had run its

course and if it wasn't for the strike, there would have been no Celebrity Apprentice. So because it was reality, they were able to do it. Okay, cool. These days, a lot of people are learning about all the benefits of fasting, like weight loss, mental and physical performance, and gut health. But worry about the whole not eating part. Well, that's exactly why Prolon was created. Introducing Prolon,

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Now what about the rumors of Aubrey O'Day having a romance with Donald Trump Jr. that we've heard a lot about? So I actually have some new information about that. I interviewed Clay Aiken, who was a contestant on that season. And Clay talks about how Audrey was texting Don Jr. throughout the tasks and had his number, and therefore he always suspected that there was something going on. Then she told him they were having an affair.

And so she confirmed it to him. And I actually talked to Donald Trump about it. I asked him about it. And he also said he'd heard those rumors, but he hadn't heard the song that Audrey had written about Don Jr. So she hasn't been that private about it because she wrote a whole song.

I don't know, have you heard the song? When did that come out? It came out like a few years ago. It's not a good song. I remember the way I first heard about it is she was like doing a live podcast at like an improv as a guest. And that is where she basically didn't say the name

but people put two and two together. And then- In the song, it's DTJ. So- Okay. Donald Trump Jr. Donald Trump Jr. So it's like not discreet at all.

It's like who could that possibly be? Who else has those initials? But so on the podcast, she revealed that she was having an affair with someone on the show. Yeah. It was something like she basically said she worked on something and it was the boss's son. And there were moments where it was kind of hot the way she described it. Not that I'm for affairs, but whatever. I just remember seeing bits and pieces and people put it together based on the timeline and her career and whatever. And she was still like mom about it. But now she's like, you know, I'm sure she would share everything. And, and you know, now he's divorced

and engaged someone else. And so it's like, yeah, did that happen? Yeah, probably did. You know, and I don't think it's people care that much about it, but that that it was revealed that, yeah, you know, like any keep some people get together while on the job, you know, whether it's a fake, fake business or TV show or whatever, you know, although as a judge, you probably shouldn't be doing that with one of your contestants because I wonder how it's viewed as judging. You're supposed to be a judge, you probably shouldn't be doing that with one of your contestants. Cause I wonder how it skewed his judging. You're supposed to be impartial if you're there judging. And I know it's long in practice.

How did she do in it? Did she still get fired? She got fired, but they kept her on for a very long time. She actually ended up becoming one of the breakout stars that season because she was, there was so much trauma surrounding her. So even though Donald Trump would always say he had the final say,

they did reward contestants who created a lot of drama and were perceived as being good for ratings. So she cried and she would get into fights and she and Arsenio Hall didn't get along. And there was always something going on with her, but she created great reality TV and it was something the producers milked for ratings. So I mean, you know, as far as like winning the challenges and stuff, how much of that was really real and how much was we're going to let them win because their team has, you know, the people that were more interesting and that are, you know, charting better with

fans that are more, you know, you're more attracted to watching them. So the challenges are real because there was always a monetary value attached to them or some sort of way in which you judge who the winner was. There was one season later on, and I talked to one of the contestants, if she was in the non-celebrity version of the show, where they moved to Los Angeles for a season because they were really hurting with the ratings. And they asked her to throw a competition and she actually threw it. And they said they would protect her. And then Donald Trump fired this contestant. And they had to come back and offer her like to make amends for that because according

to FCC guidelines, you're not allowed to do that. You can't fix a reality show that's illegal. They could accrue fines or she could have sued them. So they went back and fixed that. But for the most part, they were on- Wait, now you can't say who that is? Her name was Jen Hoffman. Oh, okay. And she was, she's not, she's not a known, right. She was one of the regular people. Okay. She was one of the regular people. Got it. But she talked to me for this book and she explained

how disorienting it was for her because she was basically promised immunity. And then when she threw the competition on purpose, they got rid of her because Donald Trump hadn't been told that this deal had been struck by one of the producers. Oh, but do you think with the celebrities that didn't matter as much, even if it was maybe not completely authentic? Probably not, but I don't think they were throwing the competitions. I think that when Mark Burnett created the show and on Survivor 2, there's been some contestants who have speculated that producers favored contestants. And that I think is true, but I don't think that they

would throw the results. But there was always the ability when a team lost to then choose the person on that team who was the least interesting for TV to fire. So they could still game it by firing the person. Maybe let's say they lost the challenge and it was because Dennis Rodman was drunk the first season, right? He was dealing with sobriety. Donald Trump told me they wouldn't fire Dennis Rodman because he was such good TV, he'd fire someone else

to the point that it was, you know, people were like incredulous about it. They're like, how can you not get rid of him? He's, you know, not even sober. And Donald Trump would keep him around for the ratings. And yeah, I mean, I can, I can. Yeah. And also, you know, the winner now remembering it, if they did the commercial for Nabisco's new cracker, then the Nabisco people would kind of decide which commercial was better. So, you know, what? But I don't think they were fixing that. I think that was real.

The Nabisco people. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Now I'm looking back thinking, oh, okay, it probably wasn't, you know, at all. So, let's get into what was the story of Joan Rivers and the poker player and Melissa. Because I can't remember, I just remember Melissa had like a broken leg or a boot on and it was like hobbling out and her mom freaking out. It's like, just remind us of that, like iconic scene. Yeah, so Annie Duke was the poker player

and she in the boardroom, they ganged up on Melissa and they basically convinced Donald Trump to fire Melissa. And Joan was so upset that she thought that she was betrayed because they got rid of her daughter, and so she flipped out. And then Melissa was screaming, and then Joan was screaming. And so on TV, and Donald Trump and I talked about this,

he still remember that boardroom. On TV, the entire boardroom was shaking because Melissa was outside in the lobby with her crutch because she had hurt her leg, screaming about how she was leaving and she wasn't gonna do her exit interview. And then Joan joined in and she left the apartment because they were all living in this apartment

or staying in this apartment. She left the apartment and came down and they both left together. So it was a very dramatic moment. And again, it wasn't scripted. That just is how it unraveled because Joan was such a mama bear and so protective of her daughter.

But it was a moment that really cemented the celebrity edition of the series because it was something that everyone talked about. And we're still talking about it all these years later. And Joan credited the show with really giving her a career resurgence. It helped her get fashion police. It helped her work, continue to work.

And she talks about in her documentary, it was a real booster career because when you won the celebrity apprentice, people then thought you were really popular. There was a whole new wave of audiences, younger audiences watched the show and it really allowed her to have another act in her career. Oh, that's right. She won. She beat the poker player. She beat the poker player. Yeah. And they did a big reveal with like a live audience, right? Just like they used to do on Survivor, which I don't really watch anymore. So I don't know if they still do that, but I remember they would do that. And then like they would show it looked like a campfire and then it would be the draw. I actually like chills remembering like it was so good. It's like a bummer that we don't have something like that where, you know, because we have so

many choices of things to watch. There's a lot of options. So then there's not the one thing that all of America tuned into. But back then the entire country would watch Survivor, the Survivor finale to see Richard Hatch become the first winner or the entire country watched Bill Rancic defeat Kwame Jackson and become the first real apprentice winner and get to work for Donald Trump and get to pick which project. And yes, it was live because they were scared it would leak. If they taped it and there was an audience that saw the winner, they were worried that it would leak to the press, which it probably would have. saw the winner, they were worried that it would leak to the press, which it probably would have. And didn't Joan Rivers and Donald Trump have a, did they ever have like a real friendship

prior to her being on The Apprentice? They were both New Yorkers and they both were in the same circles, but they weren't, The Apprentice really brought them together. And then Joan continued on the show. She would fill in as a guest judge. And Eric Trump told me actually he really loved guest hosting with Joan because she would come in and they had really good chemistry and NBC like their chemistry together. And Eric told me that Joan reminded him a great deal of his mom, Ivana, and they had the same brash New York sensibility. And he thinks that's the producers really like the two of them together because they

connected. So you did all these interviews with all these people. Did anybody not want to talk to you about it? Yes, I couldn't get Ivanka to talk to me. She thought about it. We went back and forth, but she in the end decided she didn't want to talk to me. And then some of the winners, like Bill Rancic, I'd interviewed before when I was at Newsweek, but he decided not to talk for the book because I think it's been so challenging for them in terms of like wading through like the political situation with Donald Trump becoming president and they don't want to necessarily say anything about him that's negative. One of the

interesting things was that a lot of the contestants, even though they weren't politically aligned with Trump, still said how much they liked him and how much they enjoyed being on the show with him. And I think this book also really unlocks how Trump became popular and why a lot of people still like him because he was so funny on the show. And he also was so attentive to the contestants. Even when the cameras weren't rolling,

he would bring them into his office and he would try to mentor them and talk to them. And there was a few cases where he crossed the line. I write about that in the book, but for the most part, he did try to like be a presence in these contestants' lives because he knew that when the contestants did press or when they became famous or when they went out, it was all an extension of the Trump brand. When you say cross the line, which you'll have to read the book to find out, do you mean like flirty or? Flirty. There was one contestant, her name was Jennifer Murphy. They became very close friends and he kissed her in the elevator outside his office, according

to her. And then they continue to have this flirtation over the years. There was another contestant, her name was Christie from the first season and he also found her very attractive and would tell her that. And he told her at one point that he, if he could choose one of the contestants to marry, he would choose her as his wife, but this wasn't the bachelor, this was the apprentice.

So it was like a kind of a weird, creepy thing to say, but she actually told me she didn't mind it. She thought he was just trying to be funny. And she and her fiance were in his office talking when he said it. But he did look at all the contestants as extensions of him and part of his brand and something that,

and one of the reasons why he got so close was that he thought it would just all help his business. And what about the cute girl that they would have different girls all the time be the fake receptionist or real receptionist? How did those girls get chosen? That was Donald Trump or real receptionist. How did those girls get chosen? That was Donald Trump's real receptionist. So a lot of the people on the show were actually people, I think that was Rona, right? We're talking about Rona. I don't remember. I just remember maybe there were maybe a few different throughout the year

and there was always an attractive put together girl, like under 30 is what I recall, but I can't remember like what they look like, but just like put together nice. She really worked for Donald Trump. So there wasn't a lot of creating a world that wasn't the world that Donald Trump inhabited. So the cameras really went into the Trump organization, the contestants, they built this living space for the contestants in Trump Tower, where they would live on a different floor. And then they would get the call to go and compete. And so it was all based within the Trump organization. Mark Burnett paid Donald Trump money to rent out office space and they shot it in his office,

which is also why he liked the show so much because it was very convenient for him. Well, that's true. Yeah. So where is Donald and Mark Burnett today? Are they still friendly or what did you find there? They are really friendly. Mark Burnett doesn't like to publicly talk about Donald Trump because he gets so much backlash and he wants to be accepted by Hollywood, but he also wants to be accepted by Donald Trump. So he hasn't been public about their closeness, but they are still very close. So did he not participate in the book? He's in the book, but he didn't do an interview. So you'll see how I had interactions with him and they're described in the book, but he's not interviewed in the book. But I was able to get some information about what he thought and how he felt. And he actually told Donald Trump that he didn't think that Donald Trump

would have been elected president if it wasn't for The Apprentice. He thinks the show really made him popular and made millions of Americans like him and feel like they got to know him because of the character he played on the show. And I also think it's, you know, interesting when you're going back to Bill Ranzack. I can see why in this day and age when you're a public figure and social media plays such a big role in all of our lives where you are like, I can't win here. And I just don't want the chatter because it can be so And I just don't want the chatter because it can be so anxiety driven, you know, if all of a sudden you do an interview and it's just like blah, blah, blah. And you don't have the ability to like turn it off.

And so you're just like, no, I just would rather not say anything than say something, have it be taken out of context, make a big on a slow news day, make a thing. So, I mean, is that what you think happened with some people that may have turned it down? I think that they are so used to being asked about Donald Trump as a political figure and as president of the United States that they don't wanna wade into that.

But I did have people initially say no and then they would change their mind and talk to me about the show because it was a very influential show. But I think for Bill, it was about just not saying anything that would create a social media firestorm because I think that he truthfully still likes Donald Trump

and appreciates the fact that he got to work for Donald Trump. I think it was a positive experience for him. Yeah. Well, I thoroughly enjoyed talking to you. I've read some of it. I'm going to finish it. I'm going to do some travel and I'm excited to read it.

This is the book. Thank you. Is it currently out right now? It's currently out in bookstores. It just made the New York Times bestseller list. I'm very excited and proud of that. And I really want this to be a fun read where I got into Donald Trump's head,

but also explained how important this show was in our culture and how it really changed everything for the United States of America. And how much time did he spend with you in your interviews for this book? I interviewed him six times over two and a half years. So we watched clips of the apprentice together. We watched the theme song together.

Oh my God, you could have done a rewatch podcast with Donald Trump. Hey, if it doesn't work out, if it doesn't work out, that'll be his next thing. Yeah, go on. Yeah, we watched the theme song. He watched the three times he fired Omarosa and talked about his decision to bring Omarosa

to the White House. Oh, so that's in there too. Because I still don't understand that whole thing. He said that a lot of things he does in life, he does as an experiment. And so he knew he according to him, he said he knew that Rosa things wouldn't end well, but he thought he'd give her a chance and thought it was an interesting experiment. But it also goes into Donald Trump's psyche where he is driven by ratings. He loves ratings. He wants ratings.

And so we'll often make decisions even as president of the United States or made decisions as president of the United States that he thought would intrigue the public. And I think by bringing Amoros to the White House, it was something that he could do that could get people engaged into his administration because they knew were on The Apprentice. And he is really, really proud of The Apprentice still. Eric Trump told me that they hope it's a big part of their father's legacy. People look at the totality of his career, but also this reality TV show he was on. And they do think it was a stepping stone for him to become a national figure that everyone in United States of America knows. Because back before the show, he was a local figure and everyone in

New York knew him, but it's not necessarily true that people in middle America knew him that well or knew his family that well. And Melania was his girlfriend at the time. And then when they got married because of the show and spotted the show, she was on the cover of Vogue and she then became famous for her own right. So it really allowed him to become a superstar in terms of like the tabloids, in terms of coverage, in terms of people magazine. And people were very interested in him and his family. I'm curious if you touched upon being that Baron is now 18 and you didn't watch it when he was little.

Was there any conversation about Baron or no? He talked a little bit about Baron getting tall, I think in one of our conversations, but there wasn't a lot about Baron because he wasn't there when The Apprentice was happening. Yeah. But he's very proud. He's very proud.

And this is something that, regardless of your political affiliation, he's very proud of his kids. He talks about them all with great affection. I did ask him who was the best on the show and he said he wouldn't answer that, but then basically said it was Ivanka. So Ivanka I do think is still the favorite, And he said he wouldn't answer that, but then basically said it was Ivanka.

So Ivanka I do think is still the favorite, but he is very proud of his kids. And he also has this sort of resentment towards other Nebo babies, because I think he feels like other children of famous people maybe didn't have to work for the opportunities, but he in his head thinks that his kids are, you know,

have worked to get where they, to get where they're at. Very interesting. Well, I thoroughly enjoyed talking to you. I think I'm so excited for this book. I think it'll be a fun and really interesting read, like you said, no matter where you stand on something, it's just it's a better understanding of somewhat, you know, our former president who knows what will happen. And but yeah, I'm excited to read it.

And you know, I remember I met Donald Trump. Oh, you did? Mm-hmm. And it was, it was, and it's like, I have the photo and because of everything, I'm like, we can never show this photo. But now I'm like, fuck it. I'm gonna tell you what happened.

My son, who's 21 now, he, there was something going on with where he was playing golf at our little country club. And they were going to go to the Donald Trump one that was in like, uh, Palos Verdes for the junior PGA something. Okay. And so we didn't even know he was going to be there. So we go there and he's there. And this is before he ran for president.

This is just apprentice, but about a year before. I'm thinking this would be like 2015. And so they got Trump a shirt that says Trump on the back. And because my son was kind of like the tallest kid there, they put him next to him. So he's like holding the shirt with him. And then I was like, you know, then we played golf and I saw him and I was like, we're big apprentice fans. And he was, you know, very nice. That was it. That was it. But like, over the years, I'm like, I come across this photo and I'm like, oh my God, you know, like, people are so insane that if I was ever to share that photo, they would misinterpret

the story behind it, which was just like a really innocent, nice story. And it's like, and also like, who, you know, who cares what it is? You would be doing the same thing if you had that opportunity to see the star or the apprentice, but it's like, yeah. One of the things about this book, I think people always talk about reality TV and they look down on it, but this book also talks about how influential reality TV is in our culture, right? And it's changed the way in which we regard people and perception. And we believe that what we see on reality TV is real.

And so I go in and I try to explore what was real and what wasn't real. But this was really one of the early adapters of reality TV. And it was one of the early high brow shows in reality TV, right? It wasn't fear factor where you had to eat bugs or whatever. And I talk about sort of how they cast all the contestants and how they would do a nationwide search and everyone was so excited for the

opportunity to be on a reality show because they thought it would change their life and it did in some cases. That first season, they all lived together in a hotel when they were fired. They lived together in a hotel. When they were fired, they lived together in a hotel. They weren't allowed to go back home because they didn't want to spoil the surprise. And so they took away their wallets. They took away their phones. These contestants were roaming around New York City,

going to shows. The producers would pay for it. But it's an interesting look at the way in which reality TV is made. And I think that is also was one of the fulfilling parts about working on this book. But yes, Donald Trump now because he is president of the states, you can't post a picture of him because people will see that as a political endorsement. But when he was on The Apprentice, he was widely beloved. Everyone in America thought he was great. Mostly, mostly everyone in America.

There were a few people that didn't, but he was broadly loved. With your other book, The View and This, have you been approached to have this be a scripted movie or series, either of the books? So this one, it's too early for that, but The View, there have been talks about making a descriptive series, and I do hope it happens because I think it would be such an amazing thing. And I would be so excited just even the casting. We've talked about it sort of

informally with some producers. Like I think even casting all the ladies of the view would be really, really exciting. Can you tell us what you would like? So yeah, well, yes. I mean, it's just your opinion doesn't mean anything. This is just my opinion. I cast stuff all the time. You dream cast people. So for Rosie O'Donnell, my dream would be for Lena Dunham to play Rosie O'Donnell.

Because I think Lena Dunham would channel Rosie and embody her. And I know she's not acting, she's directing now, but I think she would be the best possible Rosie. She'd be incredible. Yes. I think Lizzo could play Star Jones I think she would be the best possible Rosie. She'd be incredible. Yes. I think Lizzo could play Star Jones and that would be, that would be amazing.

In the early sort of days of working on this book, everyone would be like, you should have Bette Midler play Joy, but Joy was also on that show for so long that I think you'd have to maybe find someone else and Bette Midler isn't acting these days. But I think there just would be, it would be just so fun. And then for Barbara. Wait, who's Joy though?

Who could play Joy? Yeah. Who do you think Joy? No. Yeah. I mean, if you're going back like 15, 20 years, by the way, Joy is like ageless, by the way. She's looked the same for 30 years. Who would you want to play? Who would you want to play? Just trying to think. Jill Zarin? No, just a redhead in New York. That's a good one. I think a lot of really good actresses could pull that off. You know, I mean, it could even, you know, it could be like a really fun challenge because when Julianne Moore was Sarah Palin, like somebody that

you wouldn't expect because seeing her completely morph into somebody would be really like fun to watch. So I would go for like a completely not, you know, not her, you know, someone who has her voice, someone that would take on the voice that's such a good actress that would embody it and we'd forget like you did with the Sarah Palin, you know. I was going to make a joke and say so Nicole Kidman with lots of prosthetics and joy. We would need someone, yeah, someone who's also could be comedic and funny, I think would be or someone who was a standup would be good.

Yeah. And then of course, Barbara, I think is the role. And, you know, I think Meryl Streep could play Barbara, but there's like a hundred percent, so many actresses who could play Barbara. So I'm really hoping it happens because I think it would be really, really exciting. And it would be a-

We and the Juicy Scoopers are going to manifest that because I would love to see that. I would love it. Well, thank you so much. And do you have Instagram where people can follow you? What's your handle? Yes, my Instagram handle is just my name, at Raminstutte, and I'm also on social media

with that handle. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for sending me the book. I appreciate it. And I'm excited for all of your success. Thank you very much. Love talking to you as always. Thanks.

Well, you guys, thanks so much. Remember to go to heathermcdowell.net for all of the live shows, San Diego, July 27th, and so many others, and of course, my Patreon. HeatherMcDowell.net. Thanks. Introducing Prolon, a revolutionary plant-based nutrition program that nourishes the body while making cells believe that they're fasting. If I was going to start a nutrition program, Prolon is exactly what I'd use.

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