Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald - Dr. Drew, Kravis Married? Narcissism, Gaslighting, and Britney

Episode Date: April 7, 2022

Kourtney Kardashian and Travis Barker got married in Vegas but admit that they didn’t have a marriage license so now what? Erika Jayne is being sued in a 50 Million dollar lawsuit. Britney’s mom wants $660K for lawyer’s fees. RHONJ needs more to happen. Dr. Drew is here to examine Britney, Kanye, and Will Smith’s behavior. Who is the narcissist? How do you stay in a relationship with a narcissist? What really is gaslighting? Dr. Drew shares a juicy story about his own mother. Do open relationships ever work? Subscribe on Apple Podcasts to get exclusive Extra Juicy episodes every Friday and get all episodes of Juicy Scoop, ad-free Or get access to Extra Juicy on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/juicyscoop To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Head of McDonald has got the juices scoop. When you're on the road, when you're on the go. Juice is scoop is the show to know. She talks Hollywood tales. Her real life, Mr. Sanctuary, real data, and serial sister. You'll be addicted and addicted fast to the number one tabloid real life hard cat. Listen in, whistle-rope, woo-hoo, and a McDonald.

Jupe-sick scoop. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scope. Well, we've got a big show today. I've got Dr. Drew, but more importantly, Kravis is married. Yes, the couple whose tongues are entwined for now lifetime, hopefully. It is official. They are in Vegas They were there for the Grammys. They stayed an extra night. They got a third night free

I guess and went down to the little chapel with the Elvison personator got married Courtney sharing like 10 photos Seven of them are making out from their event of getting married. It was, you just had a little thing of roses, hair and a pony, sunglasses for most of it. He wore sunglasses throughout the whole thing. It looks like leather jackets. And you know, I think it's really kind of interesting because how does it work? Like, I wonder, is the pressure off?

Is it almost like, once you, now if she has a big wedding, you know, that they film for the Hulu show and all the kids are there and everybody's there, I wonder if maybe she just knowing herself is like, you know what, let's just get married because it'll make planning the actual wetting so much more fun. I'm curious to hear from people that have done that. Does it like make it less

exciting or less pressure or more about the fact that you have already committed and it's not leading up to this big moment of like the olden days of you know is the bride going to run away, is the guy you know someone going to object like there's none of that. So, you know, it's interesting because I remember that one of the first times I met a Courtney, she told me about how she was the one who found out that Kim got married to her first husband in Vegas when she was like 18. That somebody alerted her to it and she found it on the internet and was like, oh my God, found her marriage license. And it was a big issue for their parents and everything that she did it that way. And, but this is a totally different story. They both have kids with other people,

they're madly in love. And I think it's really great. So then there was a couple of articles like, oh, the marriage license isn't 100% or there's no prenup. All of that we don't know. And I'm sure a Vegas situation, they can get a post-NUMP now or whatever, and it really won't matter. The point is they let the world know that they're committed to spending the rest of their lives together. And now it's like really have a big fancy wedding with the sisters being prize-made,

the kids all in it, I'm ready for it. I'm ready to see that. Erica Jane not having a great week, you guys. So I'm gonna explain what's going on with this lawsuit as good as I can. So Erica Jane is named in a $50 million racketeering lawsuit. This guy, Edelsen, he is the attorney that with the local representation in the state of Illinois, their partner was Tom Gerardi's firm to represent plaintiffs in the horrible plane crash situation.

They got screwed, their firm got screwed, their clients got screwed because they did win all this money. Tom Girardi's firm took all the money and never gave it to them. And so now we're at this place where their clients have gotten the money because more lawsuits that were in the works, the derailleur, firm won. And with that money that's come in, since this whole story broke, their clients got paid.

But now that Edelsen firm is suing Tom Gerardi along with his son-in-law, his daughter's husband, who was a partner, a couple other partners, Eric Cajain, there's several people in this involved in the law firm. And what Edelsen is claiming in this lawsuit is that he believes this is a, like a Ponzi scheme kind of operation. He used those words on Kate Casey's podcast

that I just listened to. She interviewed him directly and you know the question is, okay we see why you know why he's naming all these people but this is like a racketeering case, a fraud case. This is basically he's saying they ran this law firm like a Ponzi scheme for the last 10 years and he believes all these other people not just Tom Girardi knew what was going on and They got to this point because they get to they've discovered so much stuff. I assume Now that it's been out there for a year and a half to years. I assume many people have come forward and

Said I've got more information now that I feel safe that I can speak because I think, if you worked for them, if you worked for Erica, they knew how litigious and how powerful and how like revengeful they were. So I think they never wanted to speak about them, but I think since all this has come out, they probably have a lot of information.

They also said, they sub they probably have a lot of information they he also said there's uh... they subpoenaed a lot of footage from bravo that wasn't necessarily used in the show that we've seen but extra footage that they're going to use in which they believe she new what was going on and was accepting money uh... that she i guess might have been aware of or not, but she there's evidence of her accepting

money. So what I'm assuming from this from not being lawyer, we're reading it, that was actually do that were actually clients money that was stolen from them. So now her defense could be again, I I was an answer. I was a performer I met Mr. Gerardi. I told him it's expensive to be me He knew that he let me spend whatever I want I didn't know I knew what he said one of the things he said was There was a moment I don't remember for that watch what happens live or The reunion I want to say it was watch what happens live where this actual law situation legal situation with Edelson came up and it was Watch What Happens Live where this actual law situation, legal situation

with Edelsen came up and it was before the LA Times article and everything and Erica said, not relevant, it's already been settled and they apologized. And so that's a blatant lie. So it's like they're saying how many times does she lie, lie on camera, maybe lie in the show, is she does she lie? Lie on camera, maybe lie in the show. Is she gonna lie? Once she has to actually answer questions in a deposition. But again, if you're gonna take it that she was just that wife that got to spend whatever

she wanted and never asked questions where it came from, he may have also, Tom Draury said, if anyone asks about that, you know, we already settled it and they apologized. Okay, I don't think she was like, can I see where they apologized? You know, can I see where they apologized, Tom? No, she's like, hmm, let me pat the pussy. You know, my way to watch her out of the side? I don't know.

But I'm thinking if they bothered to name her, there's going to be some very questionable things that they found, whether it's emails, texts, I don't know. People coming forward, people who've worked for her, people that were paid out of one fund versus another from a hairdresser to, that's where we're gonna, where it's gonna get really interesting. However, I don't know how much we're gonna actually see

of this juicy stuff on the real housewives of Beverly Hills because actually it's kind of been dead as far as Erica Gerardi news, these last six months that they've been filming. Of course, then the show will start airing. I heard it was airing, may not sure if that's true. And then at the end, then they, then the show will start airing. I heard it was airing may not sure if that's true. And then at the end, you know, then they'll do the reunion. So a lot could happen. They may throw in extra episodes at the end. If this gets really juicy, I don't know where it is.

But I know they had the quote unquote final party in which Kathy Hilton did not attend. And that Kathy Hilton is like stopped filming halfway through and there's a big controversy of what happened in aspin that there was something that she you know the rumor is that kathy said a derogatory term in which was not caught in camera but that airke and leesa runna have

witnessed it and have talked a lot about it and that's going to be the new you know uh... ask in gate story i don't know so there we go with that was so we'll see what happened how she reacts and if she ever does just go hey you know i had a did not know this was going and i did not know that i'm going to my birth i didn't know this is going on okay i've been through a lot

and times houses broken into and going on. Okay, I've been through a lot. And Tom's house was broken in two. And it was snowing and my son came in the car world four times, actually 14. So it was really, it was, I've been through a lot. Now, I don't know what's going on, Sutton. I don't, I don't know what she's going to say, you know, it'll be very interesting to see uh... but you know one thing she could say is like i'm curious to how do you think i feel i was told i could spend all this money i uh... i'm just i'm grossed out that you stole it uh... now i'm you know she

does say that he left me with this mess but how is she gonna really defend herself and what will the attorneys say so good luck speaking about their legal news so Britney Spears attorney just was in court fighting the fact that Lynn Spears her mom is asking that the Britney Spears estate pay Lins attorney fees, which is up to $660,000. And Britney's attorney is saying, hell no. You know, everyone has blood, this chick dry. You got to live in a beautiful house for all these years in Louisiana.

She paid your utilities down to your telephone bill, paid everything. No, we're not paying illegal fees to linds fears is saying britney wanted me to to help on her behalf and i hired these attorneys to help her get out of this conservatorship and therefore i i can't pay these people the six hundred sixty thousand so

you know it's not gonna be a fun mother's day is all i'm'm saying. I don't see a big branch at the cheesecake factory happening. Well, they could just have it at their house, because, you know, Chris Frendle is obsessed with the fact that her house is very, very cheesecake factory decor inside. Okay, I watch real housewives of New Jersey, hen you guys, this is what I think. Listen, sometimes people's lives are boring.

Sometimes being a real housewife, which I am, sometimes my life isn't that juicy. So in their defense, this is their life. But for me sitting on my bed, it is getting very hard to keep my eyes open. Last week we had to watch 23 minutes of an actual baseball game, okay? Last night we had, oh, let's just go through the list.

Well, the main thing was Margaret's mother, Marge Senior, you know, is gonna turn 75. We're gonna have a beautiful party for her. And she was at a Hungarian immigrant. So we got a big history lesson about Hungarian immigrants, which is inspiring, but it's not my usual housewife fund. Dolores's mother is still on FaceTime recovering from a surgery.

Melissa's daughter had a knee issue from cheerleading. We didn't know if she wanted cheer again, but she is at least going to therapy or going to a workout class, which we got to see. Melissa constantly embarrasses her daughter. She goes, oh, we had a pool party here yesterday with, I forgot the daughter's name, with my daughter and all of her,

what, no no Melissa's daughter Anyway, oh yes, so yeah, we had a party here with Antonio and all her friends and ski in skimpy bikinis So then Antonio's like mom I mean listen do you not get this now her friends are gonna be like we just watch the show last night first of all we were not wearing skimpy bikinis or that is so embarrassing or why would you say that and i mean uh...

and so and then the new girl tiki barbers wife no one knows her name and tiki barb they come with their cute little daughter and they have like the shortest lunch ever tiki's dying to get out of the little girl got her suit on and then never went in the pool I kind of thought really bad anyway the little girl she's got a kid a tutor for kindergarten. Now we're literally have four minutes left of the show and we finally get to the Hungarian party and all the guys make up and Marge dances and I mean Marge senior dancers and Marge gives

a nice speech and that's it. The only juicy part of the entire episode was next week's episode where they're in Nashville and Louis is there and Teresa is there and Teresa accuses Margaret at a big table saying, I think you put out the rumors about Louis and Marge is like, you're diabolical. You're a disgusting human being. I didn't put out those rumors, you know, which she didn't. They were all out there. He's got an ex-wife and two ex-fiance saves, two of which are named Vanessa.

It's out there. Okay. And she, and she throws all the drinks on Marge who's wearing a white dress. So you're like, oh my God, this is like some really good cinematic things. Like, I mean, to say, you know, it's like in movies where like the person is wearing a white dress

and then there's like a shootout, like the end of Boogie Night, the guy's wearing a white suit and he goes to the donut shop, sort of run it for you. There's a shootout in it. But anyway, it's like, oh, you know, wearing white. Anyway, a lot of like cranberry vodka drinks go flying at March and that's Margaret and that's what we get to see next week. I want to say something. I know people aren't a fan of Louis, but Louis deserves a million dollar pay check at the end of the season.

Because otherwise, they're literally, we would be watching more doctor's appointments. Jackie, you know, is going through her anorexia struggle, which I think it's an important thing. I don't think we need to see a whole bunch of it. As there's someone sitting home, it's not something I I want to see but I do think it's important. She got to have ice cream for the first time That was about a you know a nine-minute scene about ice cream I only have so much time in the world But I just want to put it out there to thank Teresa and Louis and you know and people are knowing that she is a housewife What do you want them to do?

You gave the producers a pile of poo and they made a chocolate cake out of it, okay? Good luck. I also wanna tell you guys, I think it's time. It's the Lenton season, okay? It's Easter to your Christian service. Why don't you share this episode so easily with a friend? All you do is take your device

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send it to a friend, change their life, watch the world get better for you by sharing Juicy Scoop. I will appreciate it, your friend will appreciate it, you will be the hero that introduced them to the world of Juicy Scoop. So thank you for being a Juicy Scooper and sharing the show. And now a very juicy episode with the infamous Dr. Drew. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. I have one of the original Juicy Scoopers,

a real friend, Dr. Drew Penske. Good to see you. Husband, father. Making me sound better than I am. Podcast host, radio host, doctor. Oh yeah, you know what? Let me, let my wife, will, Susan will kill me if I don't put,

I'm the least promotional person in the world. So let me get that out of the way because I will forget. Please watch, go to Dr. do.tv and watch the streaming show that my lovely wife produces and participates in. And don't forget Dr. do after dark, which is very popular at Dr. do com.

You get it there. So there you go. You have a lot going on as always. So I mean, there's a lot to discuss. Yes. And one of the things I put out to my GC scoopers to discuss with you is something I've noticed because you've been doing these TikTok videos and stuff. And I think so many people have been throwing the word narcissism around. I think I've gained a greater understanding

of it in like the last year of people talking about it. It's a big topic. It's a big topic. It's a topic with celebrities and I feel like some people use it a little, it may be being used too much. It is. Yeah. Along with gaslightings. Gaslightings. And so I kind of want to go through all of that. But my first thing with narcissism is, I didn't really understand what it was. I was at Chelsea lately. You came on as a guest. You had a book in which you could take a test

about your narcissism. Yes. So, and right away, I think Chelsea was like, oh, Heather's gonna be off the charts or something. And when I took it, I didn't score high at all. That doesn't surprise me. And one of the things that stuck out to me that makes me kind of understand it the best,

because I think sometimes people think it's a vanity thing. That's, vanity's a feature, a symptom, but it's not the thing. I'm like wanting to look cute. Yeah, vanity can be with or without narcissism, right? Right, yeah. You know, you have some vanity without narcissism, right? Yeah.

Vanity's not bad. But it was just, I remember one of the questions that then made me, when I looked at the people that scored high on it. Chelsea? Yeah, it was. Yes. And even this other guy that I really like, you know, enjoyed and stuff, was the question, do you think you're the smartest one in the room?

Oh, yeah. And I thought that is so interesting, you know, because it's like, yeah, I don't think I'm the smartest one in the room often times, or it's certainly I want to get other people's opinions and all that. But when I think about people that I do fall, that I do believe fall into the narcissistic realm, that's a big one. I know everything. And I'm right.

Yeah. And it's a forced choice questionnaire. So the other question against that is something like people like my advice can come to me often. Something like that. So it's almost the same thing, but one has a narcissistic flavor to it,

which is I'm the smartest person in the room, that's it. Got it. And people that choose that and stand by it, I don't see that as kind of, whatever, that's narcissism. That's a feature of narcissism. But here's what I want, I'm going to tell a story. Yes.

So I started working at a psychiatric hospital in 1985. And when I was first there, I ended up working there for three decades and took over their addiction services and their medical services and things over the years. So I spent a lot of time really working a lot there. And at the beginning, you feel at these sheets, these diagnostic sheets when people came in.

And Axis one is the mood disturbances in the bipolar and that kind of stuff. Axis two is the personality disorders. And when I first got there, I'd read these things and there'd be personality disorders would be all over the place. Dependent personality, obsessive-compulsive personality, paranoid personality. about in 1988,

I noticed it started shifting, where most people were the narcissistic disorders, which are called cluster B, borderline personality, sociopathic personality, narcissistic personality disorder. And by the mid-90s, everybody had that. That's the only thing you saw, and it was then from then on. So why this sudden shift?

And narcissism is not a common thing. At the beginning of the middle of the 19th century, they debated whether it existed. It's not that common, but it's a common outcome from adverse childhood experiences. And now I think people understand that divorce, domestic violence, having a parent in prison, substance use in the home, these are ACEs, adverse childhood experiences, and they result

in narcissistic strategies to adapt, to survive these situations. And so the first thing I want to say is don't think about these traits, these personality traits is all bad, right? People go, ooh, it's narcissists. Well, if you're a fighter pilot, I freaking want a narcissist in the seat. Thank you very much, you know what I mean? Yeah.

And there are situations where narcissism is not just adaptive, it's something you really want. Now, if you're an intimate relationship with that person, you can get a little challenging, but it's not all bad. The bad part is when, as people accumulate more and more narcissistic traits, and again, not disorder, just traits. Very few people actually have the disorder, but lots of people have the traits.

As you develop more traits, you have a proclivity to empathic failure. So you start, when your narcissist feelings don't matter to you. They're like, whatever. You know, I don't really don't matter. And when feelings don't matter, believe me, yours really don't matter to you. They're like whatever, you know, I don't really don't matter. And when feelings don't matter, believe me, yours really don't matter. And they can fail in their ability to have any empathic attunement, which is not good when you're in a relationship. And they're prone to envy. And envy is different than jealousy. Jealousy is, as I define these things, jealousy is, Heather's got a cool podcast. That makes me feel oh, I wish I had that makes me uncomfortable

Envy and I'm gonna work hard to get it envy is Heather as something I have I got to destroy her I got to bring her down that's envy and think about all the religious injunctions against envy right every Scripture every but this one of the seven deadly It's but it's the one that's always emphasized, right? Because it's so destructive to society. And we are deep in it now. When I wrote that book you're talking about, I'm sorry to ramble on, you know, when I wrote that book you're talking about, I wanted to write a chapter about pre-revolutionary France. That was the only period of history I could find where there was so much childhood trauma,

particularly sexualizing and sexual abuse and parents banning the kids. Free revolutionary France. Like, you know, just like 18, what would that be? 17, 18. What was going on? All the salons and all the kids were, something like four out of five kids were just left in orphanages. I mean, it was horrible stuff for children. Oh, really?

Okay. And we sort of went unnoticed and guess what happened? Guilla teens came out because when people have envy They'll start destroying each other unless they have a collective way to focus their aggression Escape goat and I thought oh, we're gonna have the guillotine's I knew it. I didn't know Twitter would be the mechanism that cancels society would be it But I knew we were gonna happen. I wanted to write about it and they were at no too speculative You can't do that. I know now I'm just now I sound like I'm just saying it as but I knew we were gonna have it. I wanted to write about it, and there were no two spec that I can't do, and now I'm just,

now I sound like I'm just saying it as though I was gonna write about it. But know that cancel culture is the modern guillotine, and it comes from all that envy, and that comes from all the injury and narcissism. Interesting, right? Because social media is available, where everyone can speak their mind and ask.

They act out, they can act out mind and act out they can act out their aggression and they can act out collectively it feels good societies societies you know have a way of using scapegoating as as tying people together the tribe so they focus on an out group an out person that that focus the aggression away from the in group you bond in group against the out group it's's very primitive, it's very stupid. It's not the way to run a society, but here we are. I've got someone say that I love myself too much. You?

Yes. Let's think about that. Can you love yourself too much? Well, the whole, all the rhetoric around loving yourself, I find, I don't think I feel like everyone's telling you to do that. Exactly. Take care of yourself.

Put your mask on first. Got to love yourself. Got to love yourself first. He loves somebody else. Body positivity. Love, love, love, love. No, I think. And then it's like, oh, she just loves herself too much.

Yeah, so most of that, love yourself stuff. I find, and this is the kindest way I can describe it distasteful and And again, not very accurate. So you can't say what are you talking about? Yeah, you should like parts of your stuff. You should integrate yourself You should have you know all parts of yourself You should be using all parts of yourself But you just shouldn't be worrying about loving yourself. I mean you should like yourself Or you should like what you do in the world

But you're your your focus should be what you can do to help other people, what you can do in the world. And you'll naturally kind of like yourself. It just happens that way. So you love yourself too much. I can sign off on that. So I just give you that one. The other loves yourself too much. But I do enjoy myself. I was going to say that's what I say is that you enjoy yourself. You don't love yourself, you enjoy yourself. You think you're funny, you think you have a good time when you're traveling, you think you like, you think you have enjoyed this and the podcasting,

what's wrong with that? What's wrong with enjoying yourself? I guess I'm happy I do what I do, and I'm happier brings joy, and I'm grateful for that. And you include other people in this. I mean, you went to a crystal, you had a beautiful crystal party. We didn't, you just brought us in.

Are you birthday party? Was your birthday party? No, it's my Christmas party. Your Christmas party, okay. Yeah, and, you know what my birthday is, just kidding. No, no, no, it's actually. June 14th, flag day. Okay.

It's very easy to remember. So I won't never forget. Do you know my assistant has the same birthday? Is that weird? That is weird. Yeah. It's cute, it's cute. It's, but, but, but here's, so I won't never forget. Do you know my sister has the same birthday? Is that weird? That is weird. Interesting. It's cute. It's cute.

But here's why it's to enjoy yourself the way you do. You can also laugh at yourself. And that's the critical ingredient. Yeah. Not to take yourself too seriously. Enough about me. That was a little narcissistic. Anyway.

OK, so what do we think? Because I did. We know, we talked a lot about the Jaden Well thing last couple days. And we can I just add something to that. Yes, please. Yeah. Anybody that's engaged in these open relationships and polyamorous up, you do not judge nobody should judge them. They should do whatever they want to do. I can just tell you if somebody's been working in mental health for three decades, it doesn't end well. It may work for a while and maybe say, now a lot of things, and what those people usually say is, well, monogamous relationships don't end well either. True. Well, absolutely. But it is rare. And I mean rare that I see these

boundaryless relationships work out. It ends up with a lot of heavy feelings, a lot of problems down the road. There are armies of people trying to teach two people how to have a relationship. You know what I mean? When you bring more things in, that the very minimum you must expect feelings that you don't anticipate. And sometimes those feelings disrupt the primary relationship. They just do. I just don't see where you can keep the same love and commitment that you would have with other people. I mean, I'm sure there's plenty of people that have an arrangement, especially if you're really wealthy, where you're both like, I'm good, screw, I don't want to screw many more.

And he's like, I don't care what she does, but I don't want to split up this empire. And it still becomes sort of married in name only or married as a visit. Good on them. And they might live, but they might live okay lives in this separate compartmental thing. But they're still not, they still are like not in love with that person in a way of like true commitment

or one or both are actually lonely, you know. Right. That usually ends up like Ozark, you know, things things sort of get weird. But I'm being facetious when I say that, I don't mean that literally. But I would say though that these independent lives find good on them whatever, but don't then advertise this as a great thing. Because that's not the opposite of a really good love relationship. Now, if you want to advertise it as a way of marriage, as a business can operate, okay, that's fine.

But it's not the thing that a lot of people are looking for, which is real intimacy. And that requires time and commitment and passion and friendship. And you have to feed that all the time. And to move it to let it separate or bring other people in, it just gets very wonky, very quickly. I'm thinking about Kylie and what's the name Travis Scott? They had this big woman's word a daily or was it Vogue? I don't know. They had this big article in there that actually got pulled from the shelves in the aftermath of Astro World and it was, you know, beautiful shots of them. Some people got the magazine

and it got out and it was beautiful shots of them and artistic and everything. She prided with their second child story, stormy though they never been married and it was basically like well we're committed as a family but we're not together i don't know what that means i think what it was and then they'll say oh i don't need a piece of paper to do that no but i think what it meant and this is just me analyzing it as like what i see

is i think they really are in love and a couple. But I think they say that because if he gets seen with another woman or it gets out or he does a concert and some chicks come back to the hotel and those girls share it on Instagram whatever. I think that it's almost like might be a protective mechanism to be like, I'm okay with that. I'm okay with it right now because he's not going to have children with those people and he's not, we have a commitment that like- It sounds to me like I'll settle for that because-

Right, but I'm thinking just because the public I'm saying the public persona like almost like I want to be with this person but I'm not and I'm not I'm just saying if this could be her point of view yeah yeah yeah I'm a billionaire this is who I want to have kids with this is who I like being with but I'm also smart and based on his business and who he hangs out with and everything there's an excellent chance that in the next five years that we're still procreating and being parents together there might be a chick who comes forward like the Tristan Thompson girl you know that's Chloe's ex or boyfriend i don't know what they're up so i'm just going to say it right now so that

I won't be humiliated when that happens because i'll be like I wasn't in law I land okay because everyone wants to say that when the when these high-profile women that you know proclaim their love and have had this couple goals that Everyone says and then he is seen as cheating The woman is so humiliated and she's like oh my god I wouldn't have cared if you cheated, but now that the world knows I have to break up with you Like if you would have just had a wild bagus that I really wouldn't have given a shit How about they not do that? How about they actually commit? I know but I'm saying I just wonder that's the part that I just wonder when you get to the stratosphere of like we don't know billionaires and movie stars and rock stars and it's like I

Really want this person, but I not the chance of him never cheating on me. In 2022 and his business and everything. Yeah, Mike's parents though, has been, when I see these people in professional settings and the door is closed, they're exactly the same as everybody else, one exactly the same things, and are pissed and heartbroken when they don't get it.

It's it, same. You mean when they're spouse is the loyal. When they're let down, yeah. Yeah, I'll let down don't get it. It's the same. You mean when they're spouse is loyal? When they're let down. Yeah, I'll let down. Same, exactly. Everything is the same. Right. Now they settle for all kinds of things and then what makes somebody settle, that's the

stuff you're talking about, I think. Yeah. But then they'll say, oh, marriage is a piece of paper. Please tell me any other contract we have that you don't use a piece of paper? Marriage is a contract. And it's the only contract you make with society to stay committed to that person. And it makes a difference when you sign a contract. If you think about it, you get through stuff,

you wouldn't otherwise get through if you didn't have your name on a sacred contract. I mean, it's so absurd when people go to just a piece of paper. Yeah, like every contract. Every contract is a piece of paper. Yeah, like every contract. Every contract is a piece of paper. So give me a break. Let me just point out.

So my two points about this thing. One is that kind of relationship is extremely stressful. It is very stressful and people get very spun emotionally. That's just a fact. Number one, number two, the other fact is, when somebody behaves in a way that violates normal behavioral boundaries, I've seen lots of those folks too.

When you go in the room and shut the door and find out what's really going on, it's way worse than you imagine, way worse. Whatever causes somebody to act out in a public setting where any reasonable person would go, no, this is the Academy of Wars, you know, it would get up and punch. You just, there's a lot more going on

than we know a lot. And whatever goes public, he's entitled to his confidentiality with that. But the reality is I promise you, much different than we're ever gonna know. Yeah. Yeah. And, but no, I mean, I just said, you know, sometimes,

it can be, and a lot, and now there's a lot of shift blaming on jay to so i don't blame jayda for his actions and his actions we're hearing that he wasn't always a delight on sat he wasn't always a delight at home did you see his interviews around his book when he came out and talked about the whole violence in his home right and he said and he said i'm not the person i will smith is this it's a mind of me of Bruce Jenner going I created this

character and inside I felt like a woman yeah I'm exactly of that he said we'll Smith that you know that's not me you don't know what would that be amazing if we'll Smith came out no I'm not saying I know what I just thought that would be fun it would be fun but that's not what I was talking about but it would be fun it would be fun it did remind me of Bruce saying that because when Bruce talks about that, it breaks my heart. You know, when Kaylin talks about it, so.

Well, I mean, when people, you know, and like looking back and he was on the red table talk, I just thought it's a clip today. You know, when it's pulling up these clips, you know, and he says, on your 37th birthday, he's there with his mother-in-law and Willow, the daughter, who's like, you know, 18 or something. And of course, Jada, and he goes,

when it was Jada's 37th birthday, the next day, I said, I'm gonna plan the 40th birthday. It's gonna be so epic. I spent three years planning it, and it was gonna be this, and this place, and it was gorgeous and everything. And he goes, and then Jada didn't like it. Andada and I said why didn't you like it I did this all

for you and she said no you did it for you and then Willow goes and the grandma goes oh and I was like so so you I mean I just thought that was so mean. And also that the three women were all like... That's because there must be a load of shit underneath that that we don't know about. Right. I mean, I don't know. You can either say that she's like a really heartless narcissist, which I don't think so. I think when women are at their wits end with men, that's how they behave.

When they really manage their unresponsive to years of complaints, that's what women behave. Yeah, and I also think, like, you know, and I said this on that line, the couple goals thing, it's also a lot of pressure for these couples. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, just, you know, we are first not only for society, but for black America, couple goals, like it's just so much pressure. It's unfair. Like, I mean,

I feel that way about Chrissy and a lot of people don't like Chrissy Teigen, but I just the Chrissy Teigen, John Legend, they're the cuteness of their family and they're dynamic and they're fun that we see behind, you know, on Instagram and stuff. I'm like, God, you know, I worry that I'm even said I worry about sometimes these couples wanting to get out and literally the pressure of the world keeps someone a bad marriage because they're like, I just don't think I can let down the world like this. It's like too much of a pedestal that you've put me on. But to be fair, I mean, people have done that for their families forever. And this is the same kind of sort of satisfying people other than yourself sometimes.

And sometimes that's good, and sometimes that's bad. But so that's my, and you were saying what you and Josh said about you. Oh, so then Josh talked a lot about, you know, that was that slap actually just like, you know, the anger towards his situation at home or what was that all about. And I said, you know, sometimes it's not always the man that's the narcissist and the toxic person. You know, sometimes it can be the woman too.

And that's why I wanted to ask you, so what in, in the narcissist, what are the traits that are different between a narcissistic woman and a narcissistic, what are the traits that are different between a narcissistic woman and a narcissistic man? The narcissistic, well first of all, narcissistic, female are less common. They usually manifest as a narcissistic disorder called borderline personality disorder. And when women become sociopath, which does happen, they are very dangerous.

They are very dangerous. And what is a sociopath, which does happen. They are very dangerous. They are very dangerous. And what is a sociopath? Sociopath is somebody who, they're not a psychopath. Psychopath really don't have feelings. Like, Elizabeth Holmes, and if you watch dropout... Oh, I'm obsessed with dropout. Okay. Well, they allude to psychopathy with some of the things she says that's them alluding to her being a psychopath. Well, that kind of makes sense to me because I'm watching this show, you know, where I'm like,

how does she keep going? Knowing that this doesn't work. What is she thinking? That it's just one issue's gonna walk in and the lab's gonna say it works. Or we'll pivot to be a different kind of business. That we've got all this money or who knows what she's thinking. Yeah, okay.

What the key is she doesn't have feelings about it. Right? She, she, remember at one point she's talking to Sonny and she goes, I, I don't feel things, I know I don't feel what normal people feel. Do you remember that scene? Yeah. And she goes, I know I love you, but that's about it. And I thought, oh, there it is.

That's psychopathy. Because psychopathy literally don't have a functioning part of the brain where feelings occur. And that's different than sociopaths. Psychopaths have lots of feelings, but they don't care about you except to the extent that you can meet their needs. So you're just there for their enjoyment and happiness. They'll exploit you.

They'll abuse you. They don't care. They don't care. They have total empathic. They're capable of empathy, but they just don't, it's all about me. It's all about me. Narcissist lose track of feelings. That's why women aren't, don't make Narcissist very often.

Usually they do feel things. It's hard for women not to feel things. They have this big corpus colosum, so you're attached to this, the right side of your brain, which is more holistic, bodily-based, feeling connected. And what you get is this borderline disorder, which is actually embedded in chaotic relationships. It's part of the disorder is that you can't tolerate closeness very well.

And the female narcissist, you know, the male, you know, becomes a leader and has very self-assured. And they build a big, what, what narcissism fundamentally is. So let's talk about what the fundamental is. It's that you have an injury, you stop going to the source of development, which is other people, your primary caretakers, mom and dad, we need fueling from mom and dad to build our emotional landscape. Then we can talk about how that works. We actually, the interpersonal neurobiology has all been worked out pretty well now. So with certain interactions, we need with our primary caretakers to develop our sense of self and our emotional regulatory system. When

we've been injured narcissistically, we exit that frame and we stop going where we need to get that developmental fuel. And we start looking for ways to feel better in the environment and one of the ways is to collect from the environment things that make you feel bigger and better and more secure and more invincible, and that's the pseudo-self on top of a very injured core that narcissists develop. And that pseudo-self can be big and obnoxious. And it can be, and because the, you know, motion. And what do you mean like gaining fancy cars and things?

Or what? It more like, I mean, I, you know, Weinstein would be a good example of a severe narcissist. I don't think he was a sociopath. He just, he just don't care about other people's feelings and you want to keep getting from the environment. You need a constant refueling of things

to make you feel big because you've been injured and you feel small inside. Speaking of Weinstein, I just watched the Playboy documentary 12 episodes on a 80. And you know, a lot about Hugh Hefner. And it really came out that he's full-blown rapist according to these women who share their story. And I just wonder, because I was like, does like, does I have to get to heaven? Like, what is, are there people like him

that because this became such a routine to just take a girl and give her a pill and have sex with like a Cosby, whatever, and it becomes so, do they literally even know and give her a pill and have sex with like a Cosby, whatever. And it becomes so, do they literally even know that they like are hurting someone? No, I would say they typically don't. And, but you have to be set up to be insensitive

to that, to do that in the first place, right? Yeah. And then once you're reinforced by the environment and it's no big deal and everybody's doing it, then it's easy to keep going down that path. But you have to be set up. Your personality has to first be non-impathic. You have to not appreciate the impact of your behavior.

Right. Right. Right. And the fact that they do it on going, I think, is more of a social context for it. It's really, it's very deeply disturbing when you think about it. That was the whole sexual revolution was built on that bullshit. Right. Uch.

I know it's just crazy when you think, you know, and just how it affected the women so much, you know, through a timeline. And the men never really were aware of it. They didn't acknowledge it. And women were allowed to talk about it. They're like, hey, they wanted as much as the man does, and I wanted it, so she wanted it. We just helped her out. We're relaxed a little bit.

That's the thing. Oh, it's a quail in just a thinking. That's a fucked up thinking. Right. It's crazy. So, a couple of questions there. And by the way, the TikTok you're talking about, I did a TikTok on how codependency can be a narcissistic trait.

All right, let's explain. It's not immediately obvious how these things are narcissism, but these days they are. Well, how does that work? And I'm still confused by codependency. Yeah, I still don't really understand who am I codependent? In what sense? I don't understand.

Who is the codependent? Are you two people dependent on each other? It sounds kind of beautiful when you say that like I'm just very is that marriage is Let me see if I can define it a simple way For the easiest the easiest way is enabling right okay You you continue to co-sign someone's behavior that's destructive without behavior that's destructive without

caring about what the person is actually doing you just want to Keep the peace or whatever it is that you need okay, okay, and what you so someone could be treating you badly Yeah, and you Don't really call them on it or you don't really you know stand up for yourself Right because you just like I just want this I just want this to end and I, I'll just suck it up and take it. Even though it hurts me a lot, I'll just shake it off. Does that make that person the codependent? Possibly.

That is a codependent construct, but it's not necessarily so. But having said that, I mean, where it comes from fundamentally is, when, remember, I talked about the refueling the kids need, well, if a parent's not, if it has narcissism or addiction, they're not talked about the refueling the kids need. Well, if a parent has narcissism or addiction, they're not available for that refueling, and in fact, they get scary to the kids, or they have contagion. A child starts crying, they, you're making me crazy,

because they catch the child's feelings, right? These are really destructive things in parenting. So if you're loaded, if you're abandoning, if you're having contagion, children just learn, whatever my feelings are, I have to hide them because mom freaks out and drinks every time I have a need, and I gotta focus on her, and make sure I keep her glued together

and take care of her feelings, and make sure that's where it comes from, right? That's sort of an extreme example, but again, that makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense. That makes a kind of situation. So you end up, and you disregard your internal feeling states, your emotional landscape gets completely disregarded and cut off sometimes, narcissism, right?

And then you're busy out here. Now you go into the world with that, and you can be a super nice, super caretaking person, but it's kind of a pseudo-narsicism in that the reason you're motivated to be so focused on other people is every time that other person has a feeling, it motivates your feelings. And you get uncomfortable, or you feel pain, and you need to stop it in that person, whatever, you're not assessing what that person's needs are,

you just need it to stop. I need to rescue them, I need to save them, I need to make them better so my pain stops. And so that to that extent, it's narcissistic. And so part of codependency is boundary problems, having difficulty assessing where somebody's else, your feelings leave off and mine start. So Ken, okay, so.

I had that by the way, I had a big dose of that I was like a lot of therapy to get through that It's microsurgery to get it. What was your issue? Oh my mom was nutty. I've told you that before here, right? Yeah, but I just wanted to eat what repeated. I didn't know you're like gonna share that with the Oh, yeah, whatever you want. Yeah, it's questions. I'm happy. I am open book. I got nothing Yeah, I mean I did remember you told me that like, you know, when I look at someone like you, I think, you know, my God, if you were my son, I would be so beyond proud and joy-spending time with you.

And you got like no actulates, really. No. I only got was, well, when are you going to do this? Or when are you're gonna do that like what's wrong with you who's even though you're like an opera singer a doctor a beautiful family TV no and and certainly didn't really want to spend time with me especially either that wouldn't have been something on the radar yeah that's just so bizarre that

is I think I just don't understand. It's funny. Susan and I were talking about it yesterday, in fact. And she was saying, Susan was saying, you know, your mom, my mom had, with this weird life where she had a life before my dad, do you know this story? No.

Oh my God, this is juicy. Okay, good, tell it. Okay, so let me just remind myself to comment what Susan said yesterday, bring it all the way home. So I was on the radio, the guy I wrote the narcissism book with, and he is a fan of film noir, right? And he wanted to, he was curious about what I did in a level, and he started showing up with me and going in with me at

work. And one night, he goes, you know, I was telling him the story that my mom was in films and was in a lot of 50s television, like Hollywood and TV. Oh, she was an actress films and was in a lot of 50s television. Like Hollywood patrol. Oh, she was an actress. She was an opera singer. Oh, wow. Who ended up sort of being a singer for big bands.

Okay. And got picked up, I think, by Columbia Pictures, and did a bunch of Johnny Weissmiller films, and then a bunch of always playing a villain, always a villain, in like Hollywood Patrol, and all these drag, all these old TV shows. She did a lot of that stuff. And regaled me her whole life with stories about Carolyn Jones and Barbara Eaton and all her friends and Anne Bancroft.

These were all her friends, blah, blah, blah. Fine, fine, fine, interesting. Love, you know, I admired that. I actually was sort of like, I like talking about that. Well, my friend, what the book was there in the radio one night. And during the break he comes in and goes, goes, I found a website dedicated to your mom. I go, oh really interesting, it's in the early days of Google. Yeah, yeah. And he goes, yeah, lean Sansbury was left Philadelphia, age 18,

married Will Something, 60-year-old silent film star. And I was like, wait, would she was 18, she married a 60-year a 60 year old yes silent film star and you had no idea nothing about it zero was marriage of like 14 years or something new zero and I was like well that's interesting and my friend Mark was like what you don't know I got no never ever this gets juice here and juice here okay continue yes all right. So I was like, okay, fantastic, interesting, out of weird reaction. I was like, somebody owe me some money, is this a film star?

She was wife number six at 18. Something terrible must have been going out at home to leave Philadelphia and come out here with a 60 or 55 year old, but whatever it was, it was wife number five or six, an elderly I'm out here with a 60 or 55 year old whatever was it was yeah Life number five or six, you know an elderly gentleman came out here And I found out that and my sister. I told her and she freaked out and I said my mom was like 85 at the time or something I said look she made it this far if she wants to take it to a grave let let her do it Don't don't do that to her. You know what I mean? I mean she's she's like Don Draper

So then she was married to him for 14 years. So like that. So like whatever, 33, 34, then she got married to your dad. Yes, yes. Okay. But hang on, it gets better. Yeah. So fast forward a month, I'm doing something, you know, Corolla and I would go out and do these

pre-suit shows. Yeah. And we were doing one at a big theater in Santa Barbara and we had a meet and greet before him. And this woman comes up to me and goes in Santa Barbara and we had a meet and greet before him. And this woman comes up to me and goes, I have to make an amends to you for my grandfather. And I'm like, what, your grandfather? She was married to my mom.

He was married to my mom, to your mom. And her stepson, this come from, was my father. So my mom had a stepson, which I didn't know about. And yeah, and she goes, he lives in Stockton, is a retired dentist. Here's his phone number. I went, fantastic, I will call him, which I did.

Okay. And so she was his mom for 10 years. And then, if you want to know narcissism, because my mom has kind of a mixed disorder. But one day, she said, I'm down, she goes, I'm leaving, and never saw it again. The son, the step son. To a child, to a 815 year old or wherever he was.

Yeah. Yeah, that's an appropriate reaction. Yeah. Like you did that to your step son, never spoken of again, never saw him again. And he didn't have a lot of feelings about it because his dad was a jerk apparently. And he was so funny. He goes, yeah, every Sunday night he goes, they would have a party and they'd join a golden bed. And you know, this couple would come every Sunday night

for years, the man, the gentleman was a character actor, you've seen him, I didn't recognize the name, and he goes, and he goes, but the woman, he goes, I don't know, you probably, maybe you've heard, she played Granny in the Beverly Hillbillies, I'm like, what? Irene, what's my Irene, I don't know. I'm like, what? Irene, what's a Irene? I don't know.

I was like, what's that show my entire child? She, she, she talk about, Barbara, you'd never mentioned this woman that you saw every week, because it was too close probably to all of this. It's always quite on in your living room, constantly. It was when I favor chose the kid.

And this was a woman she knew really well. Every week, they were in their house. Do you think they were swingers? Uh, Irene Ryan. Irene Ryan, yeah, thank you. Um, no. I'm not here any get to that part. No, well, I, I'm just trying to want to hear that, but,

but so you, so you never Susan had her, maybe you remember Susan had her, uh, yeah, think of my poor kids and all the shit we talk about. The shoes that I talk about and the you, but you put on the hot plate a couple times. Um, so proud of yourself. which was what I talk about, and you've put on the hot plate a couple times. Proud of yourself. So shoot, oh, so you know Susan had that psychic show, right? Yeah. And she, without announcing it, she brought my mom in twice,

right? Yeah. One was, what's up, name a famous, very famous male psychic. She had him in this one day, look, Tyler Henry. No, no, no, no, name a famous, very famous male psychic. She had him in this one day. Look. Tyler Henry. No, no, no, no, no, old school, old school. The John, I know who you mean John.

No, no, not John, not John. Van, Van, yeah. This psychic van, Van, Van Prague. Yeah, Van Prague, yeah. Van Prague was there. She's on the phone. He doesn't know who he's interviewing, and he goes first thing, he goes, we're going to go more than an hour. No, it's fine. Go ahead. She's obsessed the phone. He doesn't know who he's interviewing and he goes first thing. He goes We're gonna go more than hour. We have no it's fine. You go ahead She's gonna let me know I know I just am but I'm just saying don't yeah, but we're this is too good. Okay

She go he my mom comes on the phone. It's it's Van Progg and he goes first thing he says he goes your husband's here And she goes oh, hi more to my dad's name and he goes No, no, he says he's your first husband. And my mom goes, nope, no such thing. I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know what you're talking about. Because she never told you. She called her denial.

But you ensues a new. We knew at that point. Okay. She came back six months later at different psychic. The exact same thing. And she just went, nope. And the psychic got insisted. And she's like, well, I don't know what you're talking about.

I don't know what you're talking about. There's no such thing. That's actually so funny. Because I remember I asked a psychic that once. I said, okay, what if like, you don't want to see your dad as been in heaven. Like, you know, can you like escape them? Like, what the hell?

And I don't think anyone really knows that unless you get to heaven, but like. Like, yeah, just deny it. And it reminds me of Don Draper in that scene when he was in the psych hospital with Peggy and he goes, you don't understand, it just didn't happen. And that was her mindset, it just didn't happen. So what Susan and I were talking about

to bring in full circle, she was going, yeah, yeah, she had all these personality problems and she probably had some bad trauma, no doubt. But she also relinquished her career when she birthed me and already had lots of conflicted feelings about men. And I got the full brunt of that. That's what came down on me, which was, you ruined my career, my husband was an asshole

somebody abused me when I was a kid now it's on mommy dearest type stuff uh... did you have wire hangers no it was mostly really wild crazy yelling never hitting never hitting like a lot of uh... it's just yeah that is great, I definitely think there's an element, unfortunately, with, and again, just so bizarre to me,

of parents being jealous of their kids. There's an element of moms being jealous of their daughters when the daughter Mary's really well, maybe isn't a really loving relationship. Women do that. Let's be honest. Let's be honest. With success, if they succeed in something that they felt they gave up

for that person. Correct. But in my case, both of the issues with me were narcissistic, which was I was an extension of them and had no existence except what they needed me to do for them. That's narcissism, right? My dad a little less so, but I'm I'm explicitly whatever success I had they co-opted but they couldn't they couldn't acknowledge me as separate and go good job ever. They just co-opted it as theirs. Yeah. It should make you angry. It kind of does make me angry. Yeah, but I did but it was at the point where I was like deep in therapy whatever I forgive you. I found forgiveness. By that was an amazing grandfather And that was so meaningful to me. You have no idea. But you were she but she was not into the grandchildren. No

Shouldn't have an inner shouldn't have the I know I think that's also really interesting too when you when people are like mad that they're Or they bring up the fact that their parents are not into being grandparents. It's odd. It is odd, but at the same time, you know, I'm like, well, they did sign up to be a parent, but maybe they didn't sign up to be the greatest grandparent. And then the more common thing is, I can't believe you do this for the grandchildren and you never would have done that for me. It's usually that. It's like the second chance.

I could see that feeling, but we were in survival mode with triplets and stuff. And I was just so grateful to have another, somebody really involved. He was great. I mean, and they love love love to have them. So it was good. Yeah.

So when they were together and they were helping with the triplets, because you have triplets, would she just like go in the bathroom? I mean, do you see it? She really not participate? She was, I appreciated that she dedicated some manpower and time when we needed to travel and stuff like that, which was much appreciated.

But she would like bring a little TV set and watch TV in the kitchen, oddly, wouldn't watch with everybody else, and her would play with the dogs. And so. That is so juicy and weird. Okay, so. Not just juicy but weird.

Okay, so if you are, Anyway, I'm grateful now. I'm happy, I have no, I really know resentments or anything for anybody. I mean, I have a little bit of, hey, you don't do that to a kid. Give me a fucking break. A little bit of like,

I'm not gonna let you up the hook, but I personally don't feel, I had a lot's good therapy, got good attachment to my therapist. I have a great family and relationship with everything's worked out. So, I mean, and I'm sure that's what my mom say,

would say, would be like, worked out, didn't it? She would feel justified in all of it, I'm sure. Well, Peter and I always joke because we watch these shows where, you know, and you, the stories of extremely successful people who say, well, my, my mother was there. They never said, I love them. My dad never hugged me. And then we're like, what's your story going to be that we just loved you too much? Like, is that going to be the thing that like, I don't have a good story because you guys were too around and you know, you're too play too gratifying,

you didn't let us struggle. Yeah, we love narcissistic. That's sort of a narcissistic parenting style, right? I can't stand to see you suffer, I have to quickly stop. I don't think it's that, but I'm just saying like, I'm just saying that's a good start.

Right, I'm just saying like, you can't do it right because what if the next generation, there's a whole bunch of people in therapy because their parents were too loving and too wonderful and they were too secure in their own home. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no so it's a bad parenting so-called the abuse of parenting yeah the children go one of two way they become the hero or they become the scapegoat and they like end up like me and they're doing too much or they end up on the street you know bad yeah so it's a high stakes game when you do that kind of parenting when you hit a kid or to and to the truth of into them goes one way or the other well

okay so let's say you're in a relationship, a marriage that you wanna stay in, and you realize, I think maybe our issues are that my spouse is a narcissist. And what can you, what if you just go, is there any help for this person? Because they're not gonna go to therapy because they don't think there's anything wrong with them, which someone also said that there aren't a lot of diagnosis because they don't

seek the help, because they don't think there's anything wrong with them. So is there a way that you can do something to stay in that without it affecting you in such a hurtful, like if you had a child that, you know, had, was diagnosed with some type of special needs or autism, whatever, then you're going to cut them a lot of slack versus a child that doesn't have any of that. So if you can diagnose your spouse with some personality disorder or something, like a late in life diagnosis. Can that help you staying in it without getting hurt so much?

I think, oh boy, that's a hard question. I think the problems can be solved interpersonally, okay, often. Now, you have to first decide, am I in or am I out? You have to really decide. Can I can as is, you know, is it gone too far? Do I feel completely not into this relationship to painful or not? But if you still love them, you still have passion for them, you still feel the commitment and you feel as though it's safe enough, trustworthy enough, that you want to make a go of it. Okay. And first thing, first order of business is to stop fighting, which is what ends up happening with the narcissist,

a lot of fighting. You have to find strategies to keep in your mind. Do you think they just like to fight? They like want to start an argument. Sometimes, sometimes. It depends on the different flavors of narcissists out there. You know, there's lots of narcissistic traits these days. But most people are not that bad. And you can sort of say, all right, I'm going to find a way to

not have to win these arguments. Because when I, when somebody wins the relationship loses, you have to find sort of a, that's another thing for this that you'll never win. You will not win. So once you realize you'll never win, then you may not get what you imagine are your needs, too. That may not be on the table for you, right? If that's important to you, you need somebody loving and playing, you know, available, you may have to start over. But oftentimes if you're with this person,

you're with the person because your mom or dad was that way also. So you're already somebody who sort of likes, so to speak, or attaches to people with these disorders. The question is, has substance or something else made this now so big that you can't tolerate it, right? Or it's just too much time has gone by, but you got to think these things for yourself and sometimes it requires your own therapist to figure that out. But even though the nurses won't do individual therapy, they often will do couples therapy. And often you can sort of get them into the frame where you can improve the attachment

between the two people. Let me get a little more organized and secure. And that helps with all those traits. It helps with everything. So it really is about the security of attachment. It's interesting when attachments become secure. There's four different kinds of attachments and adults have attachments, the way children have attachments. When you get,

when you help somebody build a secure attachment, some of the character stuff settles down if some of these got issues that way. So that's where I would look to bring them into the fray. And by the way, you're going to be happier too. You may not get all those needs met that you want, but they don't have that. They just don't have it. And you can learn to be grateful for what you do have. Usually there are things that you're focused on, that you really do like about that person. Focus on that. Yeah.

Okay, let's also talk about, now Kanye, you know, drop down a Coachella, and he says he's going way to get help. You know, Will said he's going to some some place. Shocking. And, you know, I guess there are these places now, we're not necessarily an addict, but like. We call this psychiatric hospitals.

No, I think it's cuter than that. I know, but that's what they are. Oh, okay. We just put them in houses now and bring nurses and doctors and social workers and psychologists and vocational rehab specialists. Because you can afford it. Because obviously, people don't like the idea now and bring nurses and doctors and social workers and psychologists and vocational rehab specialists. Because you can afford it.

Because then all we do is like, we just people don't like the idea of psychiatric hospital. So we take the actual treatment of a psychiatric hospital. And we put it into a different shell. Well Kanye said he's, to be fair, it's licensed differently in that kind of thing. Kanye said he's going away too.

But I don't know if he's doing that or if he's, yeah. I mean, I hope they're not going for like Yoga and vegan food because that's not gonna help What hurts but it won't that help you know those kinds of getaways too Right, what do you think with Kanye with everything he's been doing? What's your diagnosis of that? I mean we he is he has obfuscated his bipolar I mean, he has obfuscated his bipolar diagnosis. His mom used to talk about him being bipolar and that she was in charge of his medication and that was what kept him nice and stable. She really looked after that problem. He is now in denial. It's called anusagnosia

about his, if he has serious mental illness, I don't know. Bipolar does get overdiagnosed, or maybe they misdiagnosed him. I don't know. But if he has that proclivity, it's going to get a little rocky. I mean, mood disturbances are very challenging. So, you know, again, it's the celebrities of the exact same neurobiological, neuropsychiatric stuff as all of us. They're not different, they're not special.

And to the extent they get special care, they're getting substandard care. That's Michael Jackson, special care. You end up bad outcomes, bad outcomes. Right. What do you think about Brittany? Well, Brittany. And do you follow her on Instagram?

I don't. How can you not follow her on the ground? Bless her heart, bless her heart. Just fashion shows, eight a day. So good for her. Yeah. Wow, so we know she has bipolar disorder. It's not a maybe. Mm-hmm. And she had such bad bipolar disorder that her life was so seriously jeopardized that not only was she put on a 72-hour hold, but if you remember after she shaved her head, which by the way is a manic symptom when people shave their head, all of a sudden, also face tattoos, another manic

symptom, I'm not categorically so, but commonly so. What do you think, like, if someone does just like a little star, or like a day, you know, though, but you mean like a, like a, what's his name? Post Malone. Well, no, the really like, like Mike Tyson, he was probably bipolar statement but not a post Malone because like what do you know well I just feel like he has I just feel like he has so many are on yeah I don't know like a look then right he and like maybe just David's style yeah I don't know what that is yeah it's a little different it's the it's the well I don't think he

has any on his face yeah well of, of course Travis Barker, he and Courtney, just got married and he has all over. His face, yeah. Yeah. Hair line, yeah. Hair line is different. Hair line is different than face. It is. Interesting.

But, but, anyway, Hair line is more of the trauma stuff, you know, hair and scalp and stuff. People have trauma, do that. I can't imagine. Wouldn't that be so painful? Yeah. Okay. You know, hair and scalp and stuff, people have trauma, do that. I mean, I can't imagine. Wouldn't that be so painful? Yeah, okay. So we know that she had bad enough bipolar that she was on a 72 hour hold.

Then, you're not worried about what it feels like. Yeah, so I just think you like yourself too much. I know tattoos. I'm not gonna hurt this baby. So. This ship. Yeah. So 72 hour hold, then a 14 day hold. hour hold then a fourteen day hold to get on a fourteen day hold you act to see a judge in the hospital

who deems you so severely ill that you cannot leave house very rare to be i mean people fans of her is would say that that was all calculated impossible impossible it's a they don't know who the judge is. The judge's appointed comes in, does the hearing.

Period. Well, I don't want to go through the whole, but hold on, just make a good ass shit. I was severe her disorder was. And then a psychiatrist thought it was bad enough to apply for a conservatorship. You don't get more mentally ill than that. That's as mentally ill as you can possibly be,

where you have a 14-day hold and then a conservatorship. That's reserved for the sickest, serious mental illness. So then she went on a conservatorship, and it was approved, which is even another level, but I won't even argue about that. And she stays in it. Now, she did great in it. I mean, they saved her life by putting her in it.

She would be dead now for sure at 100%. If they hadn't done that. There's often, you know, sort of chaotic drug use and stuff like that that goes along with this and that's often how they die. But they saved their life, they got her back working. She was what, 12 years on conservatorship or something or 14 years ago.

13th. Yeah, and then when it's a try off, she should try off. I completely had a thousand percent support that. I could walk out at the Starbucks where I got you your coffee, two guys that needed conservership more than Britney Spears, just sitting at the Starbucks. There are a lot of guys that needed conservership more than Britney Spears. Just sitting at the Starbucks. There are a lot of people that need conservership more than Britney Spears.

And they're at the Starbucks. And they're everywhere here, Los Angeles. And if so, she wants to try off conservership, because she's done so well, okay, give her a chance. I mean, I go well, but give her a chance. Why not? That's what she wants to do. I mean, I think it's going fine.

I think it's a, you know, I think it's a kind of sad that her only outlet is Instagram. And she is sharing way too much on it, in my opinion. And, you know, she is such a talent, but I don't think she is ready or knows how to then, you know, go and like do a show or want to do a show because here she did these shows for so long and then I think she was doing so well and she had clarity and I think that's when she realized like

but why am I working and I don't get to do what I want to do you know and then she was like and that's when she said I'm not going to do this next big run in Vegas and and then all this stuff came out but imagine you're someone who wants to produce a show with her now Seems you're not going to be feeling very secure about it. You know what I mean? You're in Maine. I mean I put the money down to do it because What is your prediction about her future as a You know as an artist. I don't have no idea But she will decompensate it will happen

I don't know whether there be a mania or a depression but something will happen and the question is will she get care? And will she take the care? That's all. If she takes the care and understands she has an illness and listens to her doctors. What do you think she will have a breakdown? She will have a decomposition. What is it called a D1? Decompensation. It's in the nature of these conditions. They get better and they go worse, get better and they go worse. So she will have a decomposition. I can pretty much promise you. But it may not be for 10 years. And if in those 10 years she wants to be off-conservorship, I always call this. Speaking about Instagram and stars, I was talking about this with Chris Frenjola. It's interesting because it's now every star. And I was going to say, obviously there's something wrong with you to an extent, I say, of people

that want to be comedians or even want to be actors or even get off on it. Now we have this place of the internet and everything where all the, there's so many people that can be a star. Back in the day, there was maybe a hundred stars. Now you can, you know, you can be a YouTuber. And this and that makes $16 million a year. And I don't know who you are. Right. And you can have a little cadre of

startups, a little group of fans. All you need is a small amount, you know. And, and so then you get these stars like Brittany and, and Madonna, that, I think it was weird. What was that? And what she went on her to, well, it's just. What was that? And what she went on her to eat. Well, it's just- It was that.

You know, I don't know she's that. You know, she's got these butt-in plants and she's six years old and she's got this severe plastic surgery. And I'm just like, and she's on Instagram, just trying to get likes. And I'm just going, my God, you're Madonna. Like, why are you trolling like the rest of us? Like, why are you so thirsty? Like the rest of us,, you're Madonna, like, why are you trolling like the rest of us?

Like why are you so thirsty, like the rest of us? Like you're Madonna and I get it because it's like anything else. The immediate satisfaction of like putting something up and I mean, we're guilty of it too. We post a clip and we're like, oh my God, it's at this. It's at this. Oh, why is this one not getting a lot of love?

That's interesting. You know, because it's the immediate of it. But it's also what it was to me Madonna in the first place. Right. What Drover to do that is still driving her now. Exactly, that's what I'm saying. You still wanted it. And now it's like, and I said, and it's like,

it's not like someone can really take the phone away from this person who's going to do it her kids no the publicist or the assistant that she's paying there was there to make her happy you know what's really sad is that somebody like that could probably pivot into something really interesting yeah they just use it's really well I don't know if you know this book mondonand has a podcast coming out but probably probably i but i'm not sure that i'm just saying that she has a huge following said huge impact people want to hear a lot of things from her you know don't don't keep doing

the same thing that that that was that that's that's see what mondonica do as a six-year-old yeah no i don't know it just feels to me like that sad that they can't i mean was she's got this like 28 year old boyfriend. Yeah, she, you know, has the face of like, I don't know a 30 year old now with a, you know, and she's But she doesn't look like Madonna anymore. No, but it is just kind of like I don't know. There's something just kind of A bummer about it because it's like you you thought, you know, it would more be like I'm cool as shit and yeah and I would like to see her just like not be about like her big fake ass and be collaborating with young artists and be like yeah it's your time to shine but I'm gonna like come in here

and sing this part or something yes like why 20 Bennett did it demanded and I mean I kind of feel like that with with Britney with all she does is put on these brown pumps and do these fashion shows and it's been stressing about I'm just saying about of feel like that with with Britney with all she does is probably brown pumps and do these fashion shows I'm just saying about all the out and she just doesn't she just like and she does the same thing and she puts it And she does it over and over and over again and I'm like Why aren't you like so writing a song or singing a song or doing something that that why is it just these cheap clothes off the shoulder something that's that why is it just these cheap clothes off the shoulder it's the immediacy of the feedback from that yeah what I'm saying that's what's just but it's like a like you know the pigeons in the skinner box it just we

keep going what the picture is what there was a famous behavioral psychologist over in the fifties named BF Skinner and yet they can call the Skinner boxes with pigeons in it and he trained the pigeons to do things for reinforcements. Oh, so, oh. So, okay. So the people want you to notice. I would, here's what I'm going to predict with Brittany. You're going to start seeing more extreme makeup.

That's your hint that things are going. Watch. It's going to be, I'm crazy, I crazy live. Do you think she's going to do the Julia Fox eye? What is that? It's like, what is that? She's like, I'm going to make a box. think she's gonna do the Julia Fox eye. What is that? Oh, so that you're gonna see more that that's the that's the idea like the look is is just yeah like Yeah, I put on my makeup and I might not wash my face before I go to bed and then I might add a little more on the next day That's fine, but you're gonna start seeing it. It's not fine. It's not good. It's good. It's

That's fine. That's fine, but you're gonna start seeing. Well, it's not fine, it's not good. You're gonna start seeing. And you learn that at like 14. I must have missed those. Mary K coming to my house and said every day that you sleep with your makeup on, it ages your face by 14 days.

Wow. What did she got that science? You gotta wash your face every night. And reapply our makeup, it'll cost you a lot of money. Yes, exactly. Yes. But okay. Okay.

Well anyway, so keep an eye on that and we'll see how she does. God bless her. I really, she started to me like a tragic figure. I feel bad for her. Well, a couple more questions. Yeah. Another one.

Another big word everyone talks about is gas lighting. Yeah. You gas let me, gas let me. What I know it comes from the movie of what's the movie? Gaslight. Gaslighting. Gaslighting. And that's where it comes from.

And it's just basically. Yeah. It's making you feel crazy. It's denying reality to the point that you feel like you're doubting your sense of reality. That's really what it's supposed to be. And are people really doing this this much? I mean, it just seems like- No, we're overusing the term.

Okay. The term has become- I don't- gaslighting has become- you bick would his term for- I don't like what you're saying. Okay. It's all it's become. It's become so thoroughly overused that it had no longer meaning as its original intent. At all. I mean, even if a guy is cheating and the wife for the girlfriend is like,

thinks he's cheating and saying this and he's like, what are you crazy? I was playing basketball with the guys and took a shower at the gym. You're crazy. That, okay, is he really intending to really make her think, she's crazy or is he just lying? He's lying. He's not out to like make her go to an insane asylum. It's just a certain strategy of lying. And I feel like that's where it's getting a little mushy there.

I think some of the sort of strategy of gaslighting is that you keep going. You know, she goes, here's pictures of you with this chick. That's Photoshop. I know what you're talking about. They don't buy you out. They never just admit it, yeah. Okay.

And there's a lot of that these days. Trust me. And what about the word triggered? When can we say goodbye to that one? I hope now. Let's put it to rest right now. Can we? I mean, I just feel like it's like everything, but it's kind of a genius word because it's like all of a sudden you're like, oh my god, I never realized that, oh my god, that's

triggering me. That's true. But I mean, now people just use it so much and they use it in a way to like make the person feel bad when actually It should make someone feel okay. Like it should be like I'm sorry that just like triggered a really horrible memory for me Yeah, and you know, it's not and that's why I'm being weirded. Well, I'm sorry I did that but I want to challenge you. Oh, no, you can't challenge anybody I want to challenge what you're thinking I want to challenge your way of thinking about it Oh, it's just oh yeah, I that's like, you can't tell me.

You can't do anything with the bit. That's the other thing when it's over. These things all put it into the conversation. Oh, okay, that triggered me that percentage. Yeah. So it's because it's not like, the other part is like, don't tell me how to feel. You can't do not, I, no one can tell you how to feel. And these are my feelings.

And, you know, one thing I did learn from the housewives. Yeah. I can't wait. Is they get very upset when someone says they're mad at the some woman for something that happened at her 50th birthday party or whatever. And the person goes, listen, I'm sorry if I made you feel less than that wasn't my intention. And then they say, that's not what you should say. Because I'm sorry if you feel is the root, is like saying that it's not a real apology.

So it should just be, I'm sorry I made you feel less than. I know you felt that way, I know that it hurt you, I know that it ruined your night. But when I was doing it, I was I mean, I know that it ruined your night. Yeah, but when I was doing it Yeah, I was not aware I was hurting you and I never set out to hurt you. Is that an okay? Of course is, but you know what you'd get back which is well you should know or you do you didn't know you're a liar You're always doing that right. Yeah, they go on and on and on and on and that's but I mean I always think that that's like now I'm actually like if I ever say anything I'm sorry. I'm always like oh, I can't say I'm sorry if you felt that way

You literally cannot say I'm sorry if you felt that way. Well, because you leaves you leaves you a little out of the equation And I guess that's it. You take your piece and own it and that's fine But believe me that won't be enough It won't be enough. That's narcissism. That's borderline stuff. I just don't know. Well, I'm gonna wrap this up. Oh, that's fun. Well, maybe we do some on Patreon. Okay. So we do some more on Patreon.

Okay, so come visit us there. Some of the more of the riskier stuff. Okay. Go to Heather McDonald.net, you don't have Patreon for the real juice. But Dr. Drew, thank you. Everyone followed Dr. Drew. Yeah, go come see my,

I'd love to have the juicy scoopers over at DrDrew.tv, especially if you do that streaming show. And after dark, you may or may not like it's sort of a new incarnation of the love line. Well, that's not a good set. I just, I don't want your people there to be offended because it gets pretty dicey over there. But you like more shoes on the shoes I get than they're heard. They like dicey stuff.

We got used to the stuff that Heather makes us talk about on After Dark. Okay. Susan and I. Good, good. Yeah. I love it. Thank you. All right. Thanks.