Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald - Dr. Drew on Unknown Number Catfish Doc, Cardi B and Prison Housewives

Episode Date: September 4, 2025

Cardi B wins in court. RHOP Karen Huger is free and I have her next career move. Are Sydney Sweeney and Scooter Braun dating? It appears Travis gave Taylor Swift an ultimatum. Then I sit down with Dr. Drew to discuss the Unknown Number Catfish Documentary about a mom who cyber bullied her own 14-year-old daughter for 2 years. Dr. Drew explains the mother’s personality disorder and if her daughter can ever be safe around her again. We also discuss cyberbullying among real housewives, dating today and why some Gen Z women would rather make their own bread than their own money. So juicy Enjoy! Subscribe to my new show Juicy Crimes!: ⁠https://bit.ly/juicycrimes⁠ -Unlock your best hair & skin with @iRestorelaser and HUGE savings on the iRESTORE Elite + Illumina Face Mask Bundle with code JUICYSCOOP at ⁠⁠https://irestore.com/JUICYSCOOP⁠⁠ ! #irestorepod -Get 15% off plus free shipping on your first set of sheets at ⁠https://bollandbranch.com/juicyscoop⁠  -Find exactly what you’re booking for at ⁠⁠https://Booking.com⁠⁠, Booking.YEAH! Book today on the site or in the app! Stand Up Tickets and info: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://heathermcdonald.net⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald and get extra juice on Patreon: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/JuicyScoopPod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/juicyscoop ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Watch the Juicy Scoop On YouTube: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@JuicyScoop⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Shop Juicy Scoop Merch: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://juicyscoopshop.com ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Me on Social Media: Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/heathermcdonald ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@heathermcdonald⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  YouTube: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@HeatherMcDonaldOfficial⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Heather McDonald has got the Juicy Scoot when you're on the road, when you're on the go. Juicy Scoop is the show to know. She talks Hollywood Tales for real life, Mr. Segment's Serial Data and Serial Sisters. You'll be addicted and addicted fast to the number one tabloid real life podcast. Listen in, listen to us. Whoop, whew. Heather McDonald. Juicy Scoop.

Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. Oh my God, let's get into it. First of all, you may have heard all the funny things or little quick videos of Cardi B on the stand. And you might have been confused as I was. Like, what is this case even about? Well, she just won. The jury went and spoke about it for an hour and came back in Cardi B. B's favor. This is what happened. When she was pregnant with her first child with offset,

she hadn't told anybody, not her family, no one. And she was at her OBGYN. And when she was approaching the office, this female security guard was filming her. And according to Cardi B, she was like in her face with the camera, with her phone, trying to get video of her. And Cardi B had words with her. Well, this woman, this is in 2018, said that she was attacked by Cardi B's long nails. We know that she likes her nails, scratched her face and was suing. Now, they had a full jury trial. And much like those great moments that happened with Gwyneth Peltro when the guy tried to sue her saying that, you know, she ran into him or he ran her or whatever while they were skiing and she was just so, so Gwyneth in every goop way of

just, well, yes, it was a half day of skiing and that is quite pricey, but, you know, well, Cardi B was given us all her Cardi Bs. She wore a different wig every day and it was so weird because the opposing counsel would ask her the strangest things like, is that your real hair? And she's like, I don't think so. It's a wig. And then he was trying to talk about the event. And he says to her, well, who, you know, what do you think of her? And she's like, well, I mean, I think she's bigger than I am.

I mean, she was bigger. And he's like, how do you know that? Why would you say that? And she's like, I know it because I have eyes. I mean. and then you'd be like, because I was pregnant, okay? I was pregnant. Like there were just these moments and the audience would just, not the audience,

but the jury, the people in the court were just burst out laughing. Anyway, it definitely seemed like she was in the right. And she had the doctor and also the receptionists say that they saw what happened. They heard an altercation outside. And that's what she agreed to too. She said it was a verbal altercation. that it never got physical and the jury sided with her and they came back with their verdict in less than an hour. So there you go. Cardi B is free to go on with her bad self. With summer in full

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That's the powerful backing of Amex. Terms and conditions apply. Learn more at Amex.ca. Why Amex. Karen Hugar, a real housewives of Potomac, case you're not familiar, she calls herself the Grand Dame. She's been on the show for as long as it's been around, maybe eight years. And she got her fourth DUI a couple years ago. And she fought it. She decided to go to trial on it. And she was convicted and just finished doing six

months behind bars. And she is ready. She is back. She's got her hair done. She's wearing. She's shorts and a trench coat she's 62 and there you go and she's going to have she's out with supervision I guess that means like probation if she does well that probation for five years will be cut down to three she cannot drive for a year and when she does is able to drive it'll be with a I guess maybe something where you have to blow into it to drive the car and um And there you go, but I'm just thinking, like, can't she just afford a driver or self-driving? I wonder if self-driving would eliminate that whole having to blow into the thing. If it's just an AI robot driving your car, you still have to blow into the ignition.

Just thinking about it. Anyway, so she's done six months. We know Teresa did a full year from Real House of New Jersey. Jen Shaw is going to get out, I think, in less than a year. So I, you're welcome the world. I thought of the next I heart radio podcast with these ladies. It's called Doing Time with Tree, the Dom, and the Shaw. With the tree, the Dom, and the Shaw, okay?

Doing Time with the Tree, the Dom, and the Shaw. Shaw, a podcast where they actually talk about when they did time together and what was similar, what was different, what they learned, whatever. Maybe it wouldn't last forever, but they usually don't. So that's my idea. You're welcome. Okay, let me see. Scooter Braun, you know Scooter Braun, notorious Scooter Braun from the music industry.

He is rumored to be dating Cindy Sweeney. this rumor was a little bit talked about when they were at the Bezos wedding together. And there's, but that video from when they were in Venice like resurfaced over Labor Day weekend and now sources are coming forward saying, yes, they're dating, but it's casual. It's a casual hookup. There is a 17 year age difference. He's 44. She's 27, which I'm like, that's not that big of a difference.

But then when I realize that my own daughter is, you know, 25, I kind of go, that is kind of old to be dating someone that much older than you. But anyway, we'll see what happens with that. Travis, we found out that Travis did propose to Taylor right after they finished recording the podcast. I mean, I was slightly joking when I said he was holding that out, dangling that ring in front of her until she agreed to go on his podcast. And it's true. I wonder how many other male podcasters that, that have a more famous girlfriend are saying, like, look, either you come on the podcast or

we're not getting engaged. I mean, this is, I don't know if there's that many more dynamics like that, but maybe even people that aren't that famous since everyone has a podcast. And you're like, oh, my boyfriend's so annoying. I don't want to be on your dumb podcast. And he's like, really? You know, who went on their dumb boyfriends podcast? Taylor Swift. You know who's engaged now? Taylor Swift. So he, right after they finished doing the podcast, he said, let's have a glass of wine in my garden before we go out to dinner. And while they were doing the podcast, I guess, is when he had the flower people come and set up his garden. So then he could ask her to marry him and then gave her the ring. And then they called their parents and said, don't forget to listen to

tomorrow's episode at drops at midnight. Oh, and also we're engaged. so exciting is that I too have dropped a whole new podcast called Juicy Crimes and you can subscribe right now. The link is in the description below. Click on that and subscribe. The first episode is out right now. New episodes drop every Wednesday and you are going to love it. So do it. And getting into one of a very juicy crime that can captured my attention. I have my friend Dr. Drew who join in to talk about it because you guys were begging for it. So let's get into the mother who cyber bullied her own daughter. Crazy. Welcome, Dr. Drew. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. I have such a juicy guest for you.

You guys specially requested this because everyone is talking about this crazy documentary over the weekend and you specifically said please get Dr. Drew on we want to have him way in on I think one of the worst mothers in modern day history okay and the documentary welcome Dr. Drew thank you for coming thank you a pleasure to be here we rushed it to get to the juicy scoopers and I have always felt so welcome by your world I like I said I inter I've told you before I run into them all over the country and they're such enthusiastic and they're such enthusiast and I welcome I'm such I'm so privileged to be a part of this oh well thank you so much and you know you just reminded me because you have such a great setup at home because we are doing this

via Zoom that when you had your CNN show the HLN show I used to come on a lot and those are good times that's why I feel like our friendship really got strong because we're real friends anyway let's get we're going to go vacation in January yes we have a fun we have a fun wedding to go to which we'll share with you as we get closer but um to fill people in if you've not seen this doc it is um i am going to do some spoilers it was a true story that happened in 2020 that i covered so when i start talking about it if you've been in juicy scoop for for that long you'll remember it because i was fascinated by it it is about um two young teenagers Lauren and Owen that were innocent like 14 year old boyfriend girlfriend known each other since they were 12s

families knew each other. The town was extremely small, Isabella County in Michigan. And all of a sudden, they both start getting text messages in a group text that is very negative towards Lauren saying, like, he doesn't want to be with you, Owen. He wants to be with me. And they kind of walk you through it, and they think for a while it's mean girls or somebody else that may have dated Owen or knew or liked him or a girl on her basketball team that was like her nemesis and the documentary does a great job walking you through making you wonder now why when i right when i saw this i said oh i know it's the mom i remember the story it is the mom it's lauren's mom and so like i said there was going to be a spoiler but they do they did a great job for the people that don't know the crime so a lot

of people are shocked it's getting a lot of reaction it infuriated me when it happened back in 2020 I just couldn't believe what like a thirsty, disgusting bitch this person was and it's not just oh she

you know cyber bully your daughter I mean the texts Drew are disgusting they're very very sexual saying to the boy and to Lauren he doesn't want to be with you if you're not going to give him blow jobs

And this is, I'm going to say it because this is just good, but like his fingers and my, you know, P and all this other stuff, really graphic, really, really sexual stuff, which then even freaks you out more that it's the mother. Yeah. Yeah, it's weird. I did not know that element of it when the story came out in 2020. I just thought it was a girl, a mother that was cyberbullying her daughter to get attention and for everyone to feel sorry for the daughter. and I thought it was very, very weird back then, but this documentary really spells it out. And it went on for 22 months before she was caught. And the way she was caught is finally, I mean, finally the authorities, because they, they couldn't, she couldn't block the call.

Obviously when you get a weird call, I just got a dirty call the other day, Drew. Uh-oh. an old fashioned like a 1970s like you got some big titty's call what did we used to call those we called them like orthographic phone calls no no no they had a name like anyway they used to be a thing people would breathe heavy on the other end of the line yeah like on a landline and it was just a random thing and I hung up and they called back and then I blocked it and then that's it you know but this there was something about the way she set up the phone that it was this um this whatever feature that you could have that would hide the hide who the caller was and you

were able to block it and you know other people wrote in the things why wouldn't you just get your daughter a new phone like how my like what is she running a fortune 500 company you can get a new number you can get a new phone right but it's interesting that the parents didn't do that including Owen's mom. Is that when you knew something was up with the mom? Well, I mean, I already, okay, I already knew that, I already knew the story, but I was watching with my son Drake and he, he, um, he said he didn't know, but then he said he started to figure it out towards like the end and before it was revealed,

but it's a great reveal because it's the body cam, nothing like body cam footage when someone gets caught yeah i don't it's just like the most fascinating and he they show up at her house and the mom well because they basically they finally get the the warrants and the everything to go to the tech companies and to the horizons or whatever and they figure out the IP dress is the mother who's named uh kendra and um it's you know for two years it's been her who started the investigation well they you know the parents of owen other parents yeah you know first owen's parents yeah because he was getting them and lord both they were good friends Lauren and Owen the boyfriend girlfriend both their

mothers Kendra and i forgot her name they were good friends they were social friends they knew each other from before the kids were like at all like a little couple or whatever and so they went to the school they felt the school wasn't doing enough they were trying to do their own investigation like if text would pop up and it would be like in a group text and they kind of be like oh my god it's it's that weird person that started the group text and they'd kind of be looking who is looking at their phone right now that's not part of this call could they be the one that's doing it and the school tried to do that too and you know and it just was so alienating and then you know eventually they break up as a couple and he gets another little girlfriend and she starts getting the gross

calls and text messages so then she breaks up with him and again watching it as awful as it is because you're like no you know when someone's harassed or whatever they shouldn't have to change their phone they shouldn't have to move but at the same time I was like it's a teenager to feel like don't have a phone for three months and then let's get you a new number and like see if like this doesn't go away but really the juice is that it was the mother and when she's confronted with it and I'm just kind of jumping through

not letting you really talk because then I want you to like analyze this woman so she what's crazy is she was a teacher at the school she coached a couple teams she had lied to her husband for 10 months about a job that she had that she didn't have

she said she was quit she quit when she was fired she was in charge of the finances in which they had you know struggled financially but he was just like going through the motions and um also what was so funny in the dock is when they come in with the body cam they said oh we're you know we were going through financial struggles we were so broke i know it's different in other states than california but they live on the water okay they lived on the water as a tiny house they lived on the water and when they walked it it was kind of like a shit show as far as like like, you know, mismatching furniture stuff. But the entire dining room table was stacked with different balls of alcohol. Oh. And the documentary person never mentioned it. Nobody else ever mentioned it.

And she's like, they tell the daughter and she was just like no reaction, which I wondered if people thought, did she possibly ever know that it was her mom or something or, you know, and then she's hugging her daughter. I just want to be with my daughter. I just want to be with my daughter. with her annoying fucking face i just want to be with my like okay and the husband is like uh you need to go you need to call your parents right now we are done we are done like i don't want anything to do with you ever again call your parents right now and go just like but what about my daughter no so she gets

arrested and she did get convicted of like cyber stalking and did 19 months and um and laura and the daughter still is like I love my mom and I miss my mom and the things that she says in her interview so that I was like how was this woman willing to do this documentary? They already

did a movie like I made for TV movie where Lisa Renna played her so now I want to watch that and that came out like a year or something ago. You got to call Lisa. Yeah so I'm like well she probably didn't get any money out of that the people didn't get anything because it's a public

you know, story. Yeah. So I'm like, did she, did they get paid? That I did not know, but she agreed to go do it. The documentarian said that it was hard to get Kendra the mom to agree, but she wanted to answer it in her own words. So the way that the film works, the documentary is they, they get stuff out of her where they can place it so that the watcher doesn't know that she's guilty.

And then when she spills the beans of doing it, she says, well, it started out that there was a real text that wasn't from me around Halloween. Are you going to the Halloween party? And then they stopped. And then I wanted to know who it was. So then I created this person to then see if we could figure out who it was. There's no proof that it wasn't her from the beginning. All right. So keep going. And then they're like, why the initial calls, the initial text were not this super sexual. And she gets to the point, Drew, where she says, why don't you just off yourself already? Bang. Hashtag bang. If you're not going to kill yourself, we will. Hashtag bang. It's September, the season of fresh starts, cooling temps, and getting back

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sometimes you have those hot flashes. I really love them for that. They're absolutely incredible. So feel the difference. An extraordinary night's sleep can make with Bowling Branch. get 15% off plus free shipping on your first set of sheets at bowl and branch.com slash juicy scoop. That's bowl and branch, B-O-L-L-A-N-D, branch.com slash juicy scoop to save 15% and unlock free shipping exclusions apply. And they ask her, the documentary asked her, were you ever afraid that maybe your daughter would go through with what you were telling her to do as a cyber bully? And she goes, um, is her face, uh, no. I mean, I know my daughter really well and I was not concerned that she'd actually do that. And I mean, it was like 50 texts a day, not like once a week.

Oh, this bitch is back. Like 50 texts today because she wasn't working. So this was all her life and she had a tech background. And so I just need, let's just talk about. all right let's first let's first think about the daughter so let's talk about the daughter first because you you mentioned that she seemed to sort of closed off when they came in and of course the daughter is thoroughly indoctrinated in this crazy mom's world right that that's the thing about these sort of munchaus and bioproxy like situations there's no boundary between the mom

and the child and the child is essentially in a cult of two and that cult has completely manipulated her and this is her sense of love or sense of closeness she She is brought up to idolize the mom. Mom needs all that. The child is responsible for the mom's well-being and feeling states. So the daughter's reaction is perfectly understandable, which is shock, shut down, no spontaneous feelings because she's not been allowed to really have any for quite some time. Now, as time goes on, hopefully she got some treatment and she can start to individuate from that mom. And again, the whole thing is to prevent the child from individuating.

That's the deal in these kinds of situations. And so hopefully she's gotten enough sort of distance that she can look back. And so ultimately, you're not going to like this, but it's for a child to kind of get through something like this. They have to be able to look back and find forgiveness and understand mom is sick and she's still my mother and bring together all these conflicted feelings. That takes a long time. Hopefully this child can get there. Now the mom, it's interesting. Let me just start from the beginning of it and say, look,

We don't know her. We're speculating for sure. Also, it is very difficult to make sense of, you know, using your healthy brain to make sense of a sick brain's behavior. It doesn't follow logically necessarily. So to try to sort of apply logic to her behavior doesn't really work. And then finally, she's a criminal, right? She's a criminal. And she may be, she may have a lot more criminality than we know. But let's just state up front. that even if there's an underlying psychopathology, by the point that the behavior reaches a level of criminality, that's on the legal system now and full force of God should be brought to bear because people can be very dangerous in spite of there being an underlying understanding of the psychopathology underneath. I mean, you know, drug addicts kill people because they want their drugs. I mean, things can happen. People drive drunk. There's an interesting flavor in this, which I was thinking before you mentioned the alcohol,

there's an addictive flavor in all of this. And sometimes alcoholics or drug addicts will get into these sort of, I don't know how to describe it. It's often involves process addiction, porn addiction, where they sort of in their alcoholism start to get the dopamine hits from what they're getting off the internet. Now, I'm just sort of framing that to say that that is a thing that I've seen, mostly with porn addiction, that kind of thing.

But it does occur in the setting of other addictions. Then to try to understand all this, I think you nailed it in your TikTok post. I think you were onto it early and often. I think you actually got it right. And you were saying, and I was curious, when you came to that conclusion, was it before the documentary? The conclusion that she's one of those female teachers stuck in high school and possibly out of way

to being a pedophile and in love with Owen? Well, that's not the part I was talking about. That's a possibility. That's a possibility. I was talking about the sort of internet munchausen by proxy kind of thing. Oh, yes. Well, I didn't come up with that. That was one of the things that the detective said,

which I thought was so interesting, being that social media and texting and all of that is such a huge part of everyone's life, not just teenagers, whatever. And so many people, that's their only outlet that's what they live for they can't wait to get back on those pages where they can be anonymous and and you know torture people with their mean words and whatever it is and i do think that she got sucked into that and instead of being on a nasty housewife snark page

talking about i hate this woman and you know her husband hates her too or something it was my own daughter and the things that she said in going after her daughter's appearance to I mean the little bit of excuses that she said in the doc was I never said I was a perfect person

I know that's crazy and you know people do wrong things which kind of reminds me of when I interviewed what's her name Pippin Pepina Stephanie wait what's her name Why can't I remember her name? Papani. The fake kidnapped victim.

Oh, yeah, right. What the hell is her first name? I can't remember, but I do know. Pappini, Sherry Papani. When she did her doc, and now I'm coming forward, and yes, I lied about some things, but some things I was a victim of, it was the same type of thing in that I had a horrible childhood, I had childhood trauma. I was abused, sexually abused.

Sherry Papani says. and therefore you know when this well i found myself in this situation which i was a victim i i chose to lie and keep this like going on and on and on and it same thing she said i had childhood trauma though she never says what it was in the doc and so i was almost like traumatizing myself through my daughter by like and i i should write you you know he's owen's never gonna no one doesn't like you with your anorexic and flat ass. Well, you know, my, I've been, I've been, I've been very, very abused about my flat ass. Riggering. The flat ass is a triggering place to be. Especially with a family member going after you. In a post, in a post-210 world of Kim Kardashian,

a flat ass is, it's a real mean thing to say. No one ever says, oh, you're flat chested. It's fine to be flat chested. Little titties are in. Flat ass. Flat ass. not the way to be. And so, so she says that and she goes, well, I was, I was not eating enough at that time.

So I was actually like abusing myself. It sounds like she, I don't know if she got any kind of therapy in prison or she sort of thought of that whole projecting defense. I was just projecting on myself. But you're telling your 14 year old daughter mean things that honestly, sometimes with these cruel people that are cyber bullies to anybody, whether they know you or not, your daughter.

They sometimes bring up mean things about someone's appearance that the person themselves wasn't even aware of. Oh, sure. Like, so you're, and then now all of a sudden you're like, oh, I do have a weird tooth on that side of my mouth. Like, I never knew that. Well, especially as a young adolescent female. Oh, yeah.

Oh, my God. But so let's state this, you know, posit these things. There's no, therefore, there's no, I was trauma. Right. No, no, therefore. But I was traumatized and people who are traumatized reenact that trauma is a way of kind of understanding what this was, but it's not because, not therefore. Because that sounds like a justification, right? There's no justification for the behavior. The behavior is sick. Now, sick behavior, understand. People get sick and things happen. But when it starts harming other people, now we, we. have to again you have to bring consequences down and this person has to ultimately make amends and you know this takes a long long time to work through somebody in this kind of condition if ever possible and so what what we see with this kind of thing oftentimes is like she mentioned the trauma the trauma is also associated with personality disorders right and borderline personality is

very much associated with this kind of thing where they have sort of split off parts of themselves It can actually go all the way to dissociative identity disorder, and people argue about whether that exists. But DID has been implicated in situations like this. And this woman's sort of her absolute lack of any connection to the behavior, the part of herself that was engaged in this behavior, immediately made me think about DID. So there's at least a dissociated feature in what she's doing.

Like this is a part of herself way off in the distance somewhere. that is acting out in ways that are just reprehensible. And unless she can call it that, that it is disgusting, reprehensible behavior, she's not okay. She is not okay. I think it's like threefold here with this woman. I think she is a certain type of teacher that, you know, chose to be a teacher because she likes to be the smartest one in the room.

and what probably wasn't very popular in high school and now she is popular and gets to see it and I think with certain teachers that seems to be the issue when they then become a pedophile and have sex with boys that are not 18 and their students, whether they're 18 or not. It's still obviously wrong.

But again, it's underdeveloped part of themselves as highly traumatized and off in the distance that engages in these behaviors. that brings the behaviors forth. And so, and I remember, what was your name, Mary Kaye Copicknick, the one that. Oh, Mary Kaye, Lterno. Laterno, Laterno. And she, when you heard some of her phone calls, she sounded like a different person

when she was talking to that 13-year-old. Like one call was like a little baby almost, and one was like a domineering, you know, all-business sort of executive. And it was just like, these are different people that this woman is, manifesting here. It's just so, so, so sick. Now, you know, it's interesting to me also that you've had such a visceral response to this yourself and so many of the juicy scoopers because one thing I learned through working with teen mom, nothing moms like more than coming down on other moms or engage in in not good behavior. There's because men don't, men go,

oh, oh, my God. But women, they, you really, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's, it triggers some very primitive instincts in everybody. You got that feeling? Yes, and I think it's because it is a mother and it's who has a teenage daughter. So the teenage daughter in us is horrified that a mother would do that. And then there, and then as a mother, yes, we are judging of other mothers because, you know, I feel God made it us women that could procreate and carry babies because he knows that we would care more about the life than men. And so I feel like as women, we are overprotective and we are more angry when we

see another mother abuse their power and whether it's physical child abuse, sexual abuse, anything. And this was just another unique crazy thing to do. I mean, you know, there'd be porn and fantasies about, you know, Stacey's mom or whatever about a guy screwing. There was a a scene in the movie, um, was it Valley Girl or something else where, you know, the boy, another boy has sex with his, with this girl's mom. Or does that hunting wives? What's that thing? The hunting wife, they barely touched on the fact.

Oh my God. That the woman was sleeping with her friend's son, who was a senior in high school, as well as, you know, two other women in the neighborhood. That was a story of sex addiction full on and didn't, and just glossed over like a cartoon. I mean, that's what bother me. I couldn't watch it because it's like, these are serious problems here. And they're not really talking about what's going on. I mean, the thing that's always really bothered me about that whole thing of like, you know,

oh, you know, a guy got to sleep with his teacher and everything. Obviously, you know this. But even early, early on, before I even had kids and with the Mary Kay Laeterno and also, you know, just like when a man does it to a young girl, it fucks you up for life. It's such a power and balance that even though you're the guy essentially as a teenager penetrating this woman,

it's like how are you ever going to now have a normal relationship with a woman or a girlfriend or whatever? And there was a great show a couple years ago that came out that was a scripted movie kind of based on all these types of stories but a fictional one. of kind of what happens to the woman and the teenage boy after it's over with and he attempts

to go to college and join a frat and he starts drinking and he gets fucked up and she goes on and gets divorce and marry someone else and has two more kids or whatever and it just was so interesting because i just think people don't think about it and i definitely think she was like living vicariously, like, through her daughter's world and then had weird jealousy over. That's what I'm saying. It's like a number of things. It's one, wanting to live in. It's so primitive, so underdeveloped as part of herself.

Yeah. But I do. I think it's like one, that she was this weirdo that still wanted to be queen, be in high school, and she probably wasn't popular to begin with. And the power of being a teacher. Then it was weirdly being obsessed with this teenage boy and almost a magic. probably she was probably masturbating to it. I don't know because the stuff was so graphic that she said, like very pornographic.

She's texting, right? She's drunk at home doing this stuff. It all kind of goes together. Maybe she was drunk, but I would think if she was drunk, she would have said that as an excuse. I don't know. Maybe they were repackaging the alcohol. I don't know what they were doing. Maybe she's very strange.

Maybe she's still drinking. Not willing to look at that yet. And then I think the other part is the Munchausens by, by proxy via cyber bullying is the same thing of when you make your child sick and they're so dependent on you giving them the medicine and everything

and then also the attention, the sympathy you get from the neighborhood, oh, that woman's a saint. I think the same thing in that she would come home and be like, I can't believe they're writing me this and everything and she'd go ignore it. I am here doing this

and also I'm like I think it was maybe also, I just thought of this now. How is she supposed to do well in school? Maybe this was a way for her not to go to high school, not to ever leave her. I mean, not to go to college. Yeah. Like not to go to the next level and get into college. Stay home with her weird mother forever.

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This episode is brought to you by Defender With its 626 horsepower twin turbo V8 engine The Defender Octa is taking on the Dakar Rally The Ultimate Offroad Challenge Learn more at landrover.ca Yeah And it's like I always wonder when there's these elaborate lies You know the long con

The long grift of a lie when does the person think okay just one more month or how will I come clean or I'll stop doing it or what is that like how does how do you even sleep it's like every other it's like every other addiction it progresses it's progressive and then they get the dopamine hits off this stuff that they they're getting the addictive sort of massage and uh it they don't anticipate the progression that's the part usually catches them off guard that it gets worse and worse and worse and that's how they get themselves into trouble. Then the lies accumulate.

But I want to drill a little bit of what you're saying about the young males because people will go, oh, my God, if only I had that at 16, look at the outcome of those 16 and 17-year-old males, as Heather alluded to, their outcomes are horrible in terms of sociopathy, in terms of addictions, in terms of being able to function in society. Outcomes bad. Now, I don't know if that's the necessarily direct result,

of the sexual abuse, or these teachers select kids that are at risk, or both, probably sort of both. But the reality is that that kind of stimulation at that AIDS shatters the upper limits of the brain's ability to regulate. The brain is not a whole regulatory system yet, and this shatters it, as Heather was suggesting. How do you go from here? Where do you go? It's something that gets etched into their system, and if they have addiction in the background, then that kind of usually takes over at a certain point. Mayor of my buddy, Mike Cathwood, I had to point out to him that because he had bad addiction

and he was sexually abused by an 18-year-old when he was 13. I had to go, he always thought it was a cool thing. And I said, you got to look at that because that was not a cool thing. It had a real impact on you. It turns out, lo and behold, it really did. The other thing is what you were talking about God's plan, whether it's God or evolution, the way female systems work, human women's female systems is we evolved as hunter-gatherer groups and the men would go out to hunt, women would stay in a group. And in that group, they would do the child care and they would gather the food. They would do the cultural transmission, everything, cultural language, everything about culture and about also about cultural norms. And if a female in that

groups jumped outside of the cultural norm in some way that was threatening to the well-being of a child or the threat to the group, that woman would be ostracized. And ostracism back when we were hunter-gatherer groups meant death. You and your child potentially could be ostracized out into the brush, the bush, and the group's not going to support you or protect you anymore or get you food. And so ostracism or, you know, what ends up being sort of judgment or, you know, is a very powerful and gossip, too, as part of that.

These are very powerful instruments that maintain cultural norms that are potentially healthy. God, and it really does all go back to real housewives. I mean, you could have just described. real housewives of caveman era or something um it's why there aren't men groups of this there aren't there is a man's whatever group of housewives or whatever it is there is no equivalent in the mail it is a i think if like if all of a sudden guys just kind of like either they get out of get over it in the friendship last or right they're like that guy kind of bugs and then they don't ever call them again they're not like what's what's

that what's he doing now? Did he have a golf party without me? Why would he, I mean, you know what I mean? It's just completely different. It's just like, yeah, whatever. And we look at that as a total waste of time. Like it's confusing to us. Like if you hit, if you get the guy, go talk to him,

I fight with him, whatever. It's get through this and fine, if you have the fight, establish your boundaries, decide what we're going to do, we're going to be friends or not, and off we go. That's it. That's it. And this all, this goes back to another phenomenon in evolution called Rough and Tumble Play, that all mammalian XY entities manifest, somewhere in late childhood and certainly during adolescent, X, Y's, males, mammals, start beating the shit out of each other.

And it's a way of expressing and then regulating aggression. It's a way of coming to understand what the limits of aggression are in relating to men. And we come to understand that we're always in harm's way. There's always a potential of violence. And we know how to kind of regulate it with our peers. Yes. And so I think that's so interesting, but also like with this woman, like the fact that she would just see her daughter. And then in fact, she did succeed. They did break up. And the daughter, you know, was struggling. But again, that's the other part of this cult of too. She's once control. She wants fusion and control. And to sort of be a part of is the way you're building this case. And I think that's probably true. And then. she wants to be seen as the martyr right i'm the i'm the one that's going to save this child the school isn't doing enough you know it's interesting i was thinking i was as i was reading about this case

that i've seen this exact same thing with men who marry young women very old men the young woman becomes the savior no one's able to take care of him the way i can no doctor is good enough and i've been through some cases like that where you just go oh boy this is sort of that same phenomenon that is interesting because i've noticed that too with people that are it's a big age difference and they're like the second third or whatever fourth wife and as a first wife it's like it's so interesting how much they cater to that husband so like if you're around a bunch of women that have been married 20 years or whatever and then there's that one that's like well it's 430 and um Brian is coming home so he likes it when I'm there

and I'm just like, what? Like, why would you be rushing home? Like, there's so, I've seen it happen so many times where, you know, or even I'll see it like in-house wives with certain wives that are like really, oh, I'm just so, we're just so in love. And sometimes I wonder if they're overcompensating because they are a public figure and they don't want people to think it's a gold digger, May, December romance, that it's real and we're just attached to the hip and we're just so in

sync and you know that type of thing but it's interesting about caring because that's also happened with um casey case him oh interesting with his wife donna dixon and i a couple years ago interviewed his daughters and it was really a case of where they couldn't see their dad they didn't feel like he was being cared for it was such like a you know parental child alienation but from a stepmother's point of view versus a parent and yeah it was it it's well in my experience with it there's often a lot of money at issue the the grandstanding and the caretaking you know sort of drama is to impress the family look nobody cares about your father the way i do and then inevitably the family goes what's up with this woman and they start to come in and that's when the alienation occurs so that's when that's

when they go all in to keep the kids out and usually there's these children usually have a substantial stake in this always a man i've never seen it well there was a do you remember there was a woman remember uh her name last name was ray i think the famous comedic actress who had this jiggleo when she was like 90 years old and the same kind of what was her name something ray i know you mean though yeah and it was like a young guy that looked not straight who was her boyfriend or whatever right yeah i mean i i i think there's you know jigolo grifters on both sexualities or whatever, both genders. In your work, has anyone ever really recovered and said,

this is why I started doing Munchausens. And I really, and I did know that my child wasn't sick. And I proceeded to do it because just like this girl, this woman, she got sympathy within the neighborhood. She always had something to talk about. She had an alliance with Owen's mother. And that's why Owen's mother was so shocked because she was like, we would like commiserate about this and we'd try to figure it out. And they weren't the only victims.

In trying to figure it out, there was a girl named Chloe that they thought, you know, did it because she liked him too and was on the basketball team. Also his cousin, who was kind of like a nerdy girl. And she's like, I didn't even have any friends. And I was being accused of doing this to my own cousin, writing disgusting sexual stuff. And so there were all these other victims, but getting back to my initial question, like, have you ever heard that someone actually admits it and walks you through it of like why they did it? The answer is, yes, I have, but it is not routine. And when I see it get better, it's when people are faced with serious loss, like losing everything, including their freedom. But in this case, this woman's already faced all that, and now she's kind of on the other side of it.

So I don't know if it's a motivating factor for her. The other and part of it when I see it is also part of addiction, where addiction is threatening their life, where their addiction is so bad, their life itself is an issue here. And they must change. And then when they have to do the work of change, when they're motivated to do it, it's hard work, they end up back where I was telling you a few minutes ago,

which was they're disgusted by their behavior, there's no excuse for their behavior. They have to make amends, which is not just apologizing to all these victims, but making it right, doing things to make it right for that person without harming them. So they have to be fully, fully aware of the depths of the depravity of the behavior and be as disgusted and as stricken as anybody else. But it's hard for them to go there.

And depending on how fragile her personality is, she may not be able to do it. And certainly, if she were going to engage in some long-term treatment process, expensive. and she may not have that either. I also think it's just so fascinating the reaction of mothers to this is because there's those shitty mothers of teenage girls. We're dynamics where they're jealous. We'll hear about, you know, something like, oh, is that what you're going to wear, honey? Oh, it's wonderful that you're so brave to show your arms and the girls like a little fatter or whatever.

And it's like, it's stuff like that. And then you're like, oh, God, you know. And then I think it's why, you know, there's always a challenge of, you know, or the mother tries to upstage the daughter or the daughter-in-law at the wedding, you know, and it's like wearing white or too big of a dress or it's, it's, I think it's just like, that's really weird. And then also, I think in this day and age, I mean, I'm, you know, with the like anonymous hate that happens on the internet. But then there's a deeper level where someone who you think is your friend, and this has been found out, whether it's in housewives world, my own world, other people's world, and they really are the ones behind the bots. And it's really, it's what Blake Lively is actually accusing Justin Beldonie of. And then he's coming back and saying, no, you did it, which is to incite online hate for another. person, whether it's hiring bots or sending nasty articles or tips to then get people to go,

oh, this is the horrible woman and this is the horrible housewife. And then they find out like it was all made up or it was actually my friend or my friend of me. And I'm like, what if I found out like one of like my worst like consecutive haters for years was like one of my kids? like how fucking weird would that be like you'd be like what what I don't even know how to go on like how do you even explain this like I definitely think frenemies do this yeah I might have thought they were a friend and they were actually a friend of me or an enemy and they actually are on these pages anonymously or sometimes even as themselves and and you know and I just am like

the fact that she would do this and to such an excessive amount amount. I'm not saying once in three weeks they hop on the hate page out of curiosity. I'm saying like this woman did it over and over and over again for two years to like a vulnerable girl and just watching her come home and the crying.

And again, the dad and nobody said let's, does she really need a phone? Like not to punish her, but like at a certain point, does everyone really fucking need a phone? No, no. That's again, you've got great parenting instincts. And so that's of course, numerous, That is the number one cause of distress in adolescence is the screen, the phone.

And I have friends that work just with adolescent females, say, and their kids, they only allow them an hour to two hours per day, period, and it's carefully structured. That's it, period. And the kids fight like hell. But when you see the consequences so much, it's like somebody who's working in that field, it's easier to set that limit. And those kids always end up thanking their parent for having done so. yeah i just saw a thing um where this kid was saying that they're not allowing phones at the high

school whatever that's essential the fact that we do we allow phones at high school is just the most insane thing in the world in 2000 and like well my daughter was at her high school which is all girl from uh she graduated 2017 so she was there for those four years they did not allow them to have the phone i don't know if they do now they did not allow them to have the phone you'd have to put it in your locker, you could check it, like if there was a message, I think you could check it. I'm not even sure, but you couldn't have it on your person, not even on your person, not just turn off. But then, like, I think at my son's school later on, they kind of said, no, they use it for school and that's what these people were saying. Like, they use it for school. I mean, with AI

now, it's going to be even worse. But there's got to be a way to structure that. Like, okay, pull out your phone now just the way we used to pull out a calculator yeah pull it out now now you can use it you know that's it's it's it's it's look you got to treat it like a dangerous you know like tobacco or anything else we will look at this like tobacco one day uh and well it's a simple thing like you know what's a what's a tip to meet somebody you know oh go to a bar and talk to the bartender and i go but the thing is is that if you're alone at the bar waiting for your friend to join you you aren't looking around and being like hello sir what's good to eat here no you're you're not going to get hit on because everyone is going to have the crux of looking at their phone and

doing business or pretending to do business and so people just aren't like meeting and the same thing goes on at school like now you can easily just go eat by yourself remember when we were in school like there's nothing worse than like having your food and not being able to find your group Oh, my God. And then you were like, oh, my God, do I just have to go, like, do I have to go to my car and pretend I have something to do? Like, they were, and that's sad and terrible. But at least there was an effort on the person's part to like engage in some type of connection. No, yeah.

Listen, I saw a little video online of a sort of lunchtime in a 70s or 80s environment. And it's all these little groups of kids all over the place, you know, talking, socializing, eating. And that, that, when I think back on that, it's like, oh, yeah, completely normal but but there's a gigantic difference between adolescence in the relationship with the phone and adults in their relationship with phone right um the adult thing the bar situation just described i've had friends kicked out of bars for interrupting a woman on the phone and asking you know would you like a drink or can i talk to you literally kicked out for being a toxic and threatening and made her uncomfortable male right and then that's yeah that's why they

then don't approach anybody i know there where's all the men why don't they ever approached They are so carefully ground down by this situation. And if you're a young man and you haven't yet to develop the skill for this, holy shit, it's just over. You can't do it. It's not going to happen. Yeah, I was kind of thinking about that too because I was like, I wonder if back in my day in like the sorority fraternity world.

And maybe they do that if you're at one of these big type of schools that are popular with it. I would, maybe the reason that so many guys were players is because they were kind of taught to be players in the sense of approaching. a girl, get their number, ask them out, get them a drink. Like, if you don't practice that skill like anything else, then you're not, I mean, you don't learn how to do it. You don't learn how to tolerate rejection.

You don't understand who you are in relationships. You don't know how to form a date, form a relationship, break a date. You don't know how to do any of that stuff. And it's all scary and dangerous. You're going to be accused of being a rapist, of being a toxic male. It's, the men are just confused and they're just pulling away and they're going back with they're porn and that's it and they're just not even trying because they've been told that it's dangerous and there's something wrong with them for wanting to try and you know it's funny

Weinstein Harvey Weinstein used that same defense he was like well that's just what we did in the 70s it's like yes there was an excessive actually an excessive push for men to do that kind of thing and it was sort of things were out of control in the 70s but but to have some sort of of happy medium is where we want to get yeah going back to this, why do you think she would agree to then go on camera and be part of this documentary? First, I thought maybe she was compensated, but I don't know. And until I find out they were, they weren't, like we all, like they got whatever, $300,000 to be part of it.

Well, but I don't think that they do. Well, I would be surprised if she didn't get something. Okay. Yeah, but we'll see. I mean, if someone knows, please let me know if they did. Because I'm just kind of curious, or do they think, again, an image of themselves where they don't think that they did something that bad? And then, therefore, I can turn it around and tell my story, like Jesse Smollett or Sherry Papini or whatever. Correct. I think. And never underestimates people desire to be on TV. It's unbelievable.

People will, they want to be on TV so badly. They'll do crazy shit to get on TV. it. So if she gets paid, wants to be on TV, and thinks she can make her case. If she really were, you know, experiencing what she had done, it'd be a long time before she'd want to get out there and talk about it. It'd be a long time. Actually, I think you're right. I think it's about wanting what she did was a way to bring attention onto her as the victim's mother and their family and everything in this small town. So yeah, I think when women are attention seeking, Again, the attention of being the coach, being in charge, being at the center of the, like the in front of a classroom, being able to tell people what to do. Like that is, you know, some people go and and try to be, you know, an actor or whatever.

And then other people with that same desire for attention go in other careers. And if they're a bad person at the route, which I believe she is, then it's a gateway to fuck over a whole different group of people. Let's explore that a little further because attention seeking the way women do it is a little confusing to me. Like as a male, I have trouble quite getting my head around it. Men seek, not the men don't seek attention, it's just a different way. They do it very, very differently. And I feel like you tell me if this is true and please, juicy scoopers, I'm prepared to be wrong on this. So set me straight because I'm not a woman, it turns out, that something about the male gaze is woven into that.

woven into that need for attention. You know what I mean? Definitely. I mean. So it's explained to me what that is. I as a man, I can't get my head around it. And some women, they lose control of that. It becomes like they need it.

And I think this woman has some of that stuff going on in there too. But could you tell me more? Well, I think that something that clicked with me not that long ago is how much media, romantic movies, series, TV, which is what we grew up with, not the internet, just regular storytelling movies, would infiltrate our thoughts

and make us think that this was a reality. And there were so many romantic comedies and whatnot. That's about... Why didn't men get infected by that? You know what I mean? They're the ones writing it. That's what I was going to say. I found out later that...

It's a gay man writing it. Like, but a lot of the, what I like to call, the dry bar comedies, which are the ones from the 2000s that they play when you get your hair blown out at a dry bar. A lot of them are straight men, and they're just following a formula. Okay. And where the girl that has the A-type personality and is working in advertising, she's gorgeous, but she's wearing glasses, so she's ugly. And then she also is always tripping and falling, because they're lazy. It's lazy,

comedy writing but this is what got greenlit until like we realized wow you know it was really fucking funny bridesmaids written by women like then now we're like okay but for so long we would see that and part of it was the girl would walk in and she would you know be so quiet and shy and then the hot guy would notice her across the room and then you know and then oh he'll like me guys don't notice the quiet girl in the corner you know they don't You don't. You need to go right up and push your boobs against him and act like you're getting a drink and have eye contact with them and let them know that you like them. It is not that. But it's this weird fantasy that you're like, oh, you know, if I'm demure, if act like this, like kill. Well, but listen, this is another feature that Christina P pointed out to me once. And I had no idea this was a thing is that women have a motivational system around being chosen. I want to be chosen. We, we, we, we. We don't want to be chosen.

Not unless it's on the football team and then we want to be chosen right up front because we're good. That's it. But this choose me thing amongst other women, that's a pretty much, that's a weird, interesting motivational system. Yeah, I mean, I do think,

I think it could be a little bit less now, you know, with the newer generations of women. But yeah, it was always, you know, you know it's Cinderella it's Cinderella it's like my generation was like you know you wanted to get married by 30 so that you could not have difficulty getting pregnant and this was kind of the routine then with the millennials it was like no you don't have to do it or you can wait now with Gen Z I feel like it's this weird thing where it's going back to trad wives and it's all you know and it's making it's making it sourdough bread from scratch and I'm like there was an expression that was it's the best thing since sliced bread for a reason

we didn't want to make our bread from scratch who the fuck wants to waste all day making bread from scratch but you see it with this girl Ballerita Farms and you know and like oh and this other woman oh I was craving a hamburger so I

you know killed the cow and then you know pick the wheat and you know and they do this whole thing and they kind of know it's like obviously they're not really doing this all themselves and they're doing it all in a day and there's a production team around it. But it's just, I don't know.

It's like this weird thing that so often now these girls just like we were wanting to have that wedding in New York because we watched my best friend's wedding and all these, you know, brides, always a bridesmaids, whatever those, 27 dresses,

all those things. We kind of wanted it. They now are seeing it and want this other thing of like i just want to have like babies and like live on a farm and have my husband just think i'm you know great and that's scary too yeah there's women that are like uh yeah and what happens when you're you know you're 40 and your kids are gone and you know your husband is cheating on you and nothing's in your name or you hate your husband and there and there's no way for you to protect you know like that's there's a balance of like you know it's interesting

because they're like oh my god who sold us the this fake goods of how great it is for women's rights like you know 50 years ago you didn't have to have a job and it was like kind of nice and now it's like if you don't have a job or it's just it's just it's just yeah it is it is such a weird thing and it's just very much we're two different completely different and is it going yeah no for Sure. But is it going to be that women are going to have to sort of pick their poison, like you're going to be a career person or that's going to be your focus or going to be your focus? Or is there a realistic balance that most women can achieve? No. No. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, you cannot have it all. You could have it most, but you cannot have it all. And you will have regrets. You will have regrets. I shared the podium once with a woman who wrote a book. She went out to write a book about the most successful women in America. And she wanted to know what these women had in common with one another.

So as Diane Sawyer and Oprah and all these women, she interviewed like 20 of them or 30 of them. And she said, you know, I can only find one thing in common of the women I interviewed. These were like, you know, really successful captains of industry and things. And she said they were all childless and they were all pissed because they were told do that whenever you want. You can do that part later. Don't worry about it. Of course, window closes. And so, I don't know.

I almost feel like I hope that fertility technology helps women with that because you can freeze your eggs. You can freeze your eggs. You can do these things. You can then wait later than we used to be able to. It's some risk. I think freezing your eggs is the greatest thing you can do for life insurance just for yourself. Yeah. And I would also say to be careful about just having the eggs and maybe not and not doing the frozen embryos because if even if it's like you might not want to be with that person later on.

Right. The embryos. Then you have the Sophia Vigara situation. Right. The embryos have a whole bunch of ethical issues associated with them and oral issues. And you can avoid that by getting your eggs early. by the way, the healthy eggs is a certain, there's an optimal window for that. I will say, because people are going to be mad at what you said, that this woman did a study

that said childless and piss. They're going to say, I love being childless and all that. And I believe that. I believe it. And I do think, I do not judge. I believe one of the things I think Jerry Seinfeld said was like, I think the greatest thing that God did was like, if you choose not to have kids, you don't know what you're missing because you won't know it. You won't know it. yeah and so on the other hand you won't know the stress the worry the fact that the job never fucking ends it you can never retire it's just when you think things are going well it's not wait till you have grandkids it's all over again you're always you're always got to worry about are they happy with their spouse are they happy with their job are they happy da da because

you know again getting back to why people were so infuri about this awful woman is because we do care so much about our children's mental health and their happiness. Our biggest fear for anybody in this day and age is that their child would end their life. Yes. And, you know, so for the fact that she was saying it over and over to her again, what do you think, and then we'll wrap it up like. Wait, before you ask me that question, let me just comment something you said about the

childless women. I think women today who choose not to have children and pursue active careers are probably not pissed because I think they understand what they're doing. My point was in that previous generation, really essentially boomers, they didn't get it. And they were pissed that they were sold a bill of goods, that they could. That's what they were pissed about. But listen, I welcome all types. I welcome it all, everybody. I'm a moderate in all things.

And I love the human experience. and I love that we have different ways of leaving our lives. But thriving is our objective. You know, Aristotle said that thousands of years ago. Human thriving, flourishing. That's what we should look for. And you've got to decide what that means for you. Right.

And I think it's interesting because it's like, wait, so let me go. Okay, let me just go because we got it. I know you have to leave. Okay. I'm in no hurry, by the way. I'm pretty good. I thought you said you, okay. Well, I thought you said we'd be done at one.

Okay. So anyway, I love that you just love me so much. Okay. So what do you think for this girl, Lauren? Because one, I did this impression of the woman because she just made me so mad and that's what I do. And she is an awful person and she chose to go on this doc. So I have no sympathy. But one comment, and of course I only like to focus on the negative comments.

It's like one comment was, take this down immediately. That poor girl, Lauren, has suffered enough. How dare you make fun of this? And I'm like, first of all, I didn't make fun of Lauren, the daughter. I was making fun of this. I wasn't making fun. I was doing an impression of this annoying woman who's awful. And I do kind of worry about this girl.

And there is something very primal I know about a child. wanting to be with her mother, forgiving their mother, and all of that. But, I mean, can do you imagine if she gets a husband? And she's like, can't my mom come over and babysit? I mean, when would you ever let your guard down and think she's okay? Never. That's what I say. Never.

Never. Never. She's done enough damage that even if she's into a glorious recovery and its years down the road, I'd still have supervision. She's still a sick person and she still could have slips. That's all. Learn from all this. That's all. We can all do better. I'm sure I can do better. That's for sure. And make sure this is on Patreon for Heather. That's all I'm sorry. Yeah, we might have to be on Patreon. But no, this was really fascinating. I'm so glad that you kind of weighed in on the, you know, the mental. psychology of someone that does something like this. And I wonder if we're going to discover more or if this would be any kind of a wake-up call to the people that were sitting at home that do hide behind a keyboard and torment someone they may know or is in their group or whatever. And maybe they'll realize like, shit, I could be found out and how humiliating if I was and I should stop. I mean, I do think it's an illness.

I do think it's an addiction. Yes. I mean, even for me in sometimes where I'd want to see like the negative stuff and I really treated it almost like I'm giving that up like I'm giving up alcohol or chocolate or whatever. Yep. And if you don't see it, it really does change. You will have happier days.

If you can protect yourself from seeing it. or blocking people or whatever it is so freeing and you will have a pep in your step that you didn't before it no matter how much you tell yourself like oh it doesn't bother me and I have a tough skin when you read you know you anorexic flat ass like this poor girl did over and over again you're a piece of shit everyone wishes you would die things like that it just you feel like the whole world hates you you don't realize what a small percentage it is and who who are these people anyway? You don't know. That's right.

I agree wholeheartedly with you. It depletes your soul by engaging in this behavior. It's not good for us. It certainly doesn't add to our flourishing and is certainly hurting other people. But I think a way to think about it is conduct your life in such a way as though there's a video camera running at all times and you could look at that video and feel good about

what you saw. And the reality is we live in the kind of world where that's essentially what's happening. Exactly. Exactly where we are. Every story you go into every, I remember there was that episode of Black Mirror just a few years ago with a, I think it was Bryce Dallas. Is that her name? The one that's Ron Howard's daughter. And it was, you know, future, but not too far in the future. wherever she went, she got like a personality rating, not like just like a FICO score, but instead for your personality. So, you know, along with leaving a tip, they would then the barista would rate you on how delightful you were.

And somehow some bad things happened and some gossip started. And her number went down. And then her friend was like, you can't be in my wedding. And you can't. And now you lost this apartment. And, you know, because you are. are not the and so it's very very true well thank you so much dr drew and you have always so much so many shows so in case people don't know where you've been since love line where can they listen the thing to

watch now is you know sign up my website dr drew.com follow me on x at dr drew susan my wife produces a streaming show on tuesday wednesday thursday at two o'clock that really is sort of the focus right now of what i'm doing we're interviewing very very interesting people and um show up there. Well, you can get it on. If you can follow on X, we put a blast out at 2 o'clock before as the show is released. It's live. It's fun. Awesome. All right. Thank you so much. Talk to soon. Appreciate you. Thank you. Thank you, the juicy scoopers. I really, and I welcome your feedback, not your abuse, but your feedback. And I'll try to adjust my point of view based on, I will learn something from your community because they are really a very rich, interesting, smart group of

people that follow you. Like I said, I meet them all over the place. And it's, it's, it's, you've got quite a community there. So please do, give me your feedback, but I'm, I'm here to change. I'm here to take it. So awesome. Thank you. Yeah, you got it. Bye.

Bye.