Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald - Drag Race Secrets, Bachelor Sex Scandals, and Swiftie Rumors Fixed with World of Wonder

Episode Date: July 9, 2026

We are kicking off today’s episode by clearing up some major drama, including setting the record straight on those Taylor Swift wedding rumors and diving into the scandalous tell-all from a Bachelor producer who hooked up with one of the leads. Then, I am sitting down with total Hollywood royalty: Fenton Bailey and Randy Barbato, the legendary co-founders of World of Wonder! For over thirty years, these two have shaped pop culture, creating the global phenomenon RuPaul's Drag Race, groundbreaking documentaries, and their latest hit summer film, Stop! That! Train! They take me all the way back to their film school days and their fascinating partnership, plus they reveal how they were actually pitched the Kardashians' reality show first, and whether they're still kicking themselves for passing. We talk everything from how they first discovered RuPaul to what the OJ Simpson trial meant for everyone involved, and we even pitch some hilarious new projects together. You do not want to miss this incredibly juicy and hilarious look behind the Hollywood curtain! -Use code JUICYSCOOP at ⁠jonesroadbeauty.com⁠ to get a Free Gift with your first purchase! #JonesRoadBeauty #ad  -Make your summer wardrobe feel easier. Go to ⁠Quince.com/juicy⁠  for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. -For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month’s subscription and free shipping when you visit ⁠Nutrafol.com⁠ and enter promo code JUICYSCOOP. -Our listeners can buy one pair of glasses and get 20% off any additional pairs at ⁠WarbyParker.com/JUICYSCOOP⁠ — and using our link helps support the show. #WarbyParker #ad -If you have an iPhone, head to⁠ ladder.fit/JUICYSCOOP⁠ and take a quick quiz to find your perfect Ladder plan. Use my link and get a free 7-day trial with NO credit card, and $10 off your first month if you join. Subscribe to my new show Juicy Crimes!: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/juicycrimes⁠⁠⁠⁠ Stand Up Tickets and info: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://heathermcdonald.net/ ⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald and get extra juice on Patreon: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/JuicyScoopPod⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/cw/juicyscoop⁠⁠⁠⁠ Watch the Juicy Scoop On YouTube: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@JuicyScoop⁠⁠⁠⁠ Shop Juicy Scoop Merch: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://juicyscoopshop.com/?srsltid=AfmBOopTZFUvAeokrJJ6dQ5wuAW1T3nssO6pHk47u7KymJUBtBgKCvfX⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Me on Social Media: Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/heathermcdonald/⁠⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@heathermcdonald⁠⁠⁠⁠ YouTube: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@HeatherMcDonaldOfficial⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Here we go. Someone's already claiming this is our year. Someone else said that last year too. A round of Jameson, Ginger, and Lime arrives at a table. Smooth enough for kickoff, smooth enough for extra time. New friends pulling up a stool. Debates about whether that was a handball. Cheers rising like a roar around the room.

Because match days are about the shared moments. How did Jameson to your match day lineup? Jameson, it's what you bring. Please enjoy our products responsibly. Heather McDonald has got the juices scoop. When you're on the road, when you're on the go, Juicy Scoot is the show to know. She talks Hollywood Tales for real life, Mr. Sigmund Serial Data and Serial Sister.

You'll be addicted and addicts it fast to the number one tabloid real life podcast. Listen in, listen. Heather McDonald's Juice! Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. I'm going to do a couple topics and then I have such a juicy interview. Let's get into it. First of all, I want to say a couple more things about the Taylor wedding. You're like, Heather, I'm done. Well, I need to correct myself. I talked about this girl who what appeared to be in her Instagram photo in which TMZ picked it up that she was wearing a stark white dress, as I described it. The boyfriend has gone online to defend her and say it was champagne

pink and that the light from her phone made it look more white. Listen, I had no problem with her wearing it. I don't think it matters what you wear as long as you're wearing a formal dress or cocktail dress that follows the guidelines of black tie. I don't even know if her wedding invitations said black tie. Anyway, a couple other words. weird things that they did that people thought were weird, other people thought it was great, is that with the, um, all the different little, like arcade games and stuff they brought in, there was also an auction. And one of the items was a Chanel purse. I'm assuming it was a real Chanel purse. And this wife of somebody important won it. And that was fun for her. And people

thought that was so odd. And they're like, no, it was auctioned off for charity. So then I'm on auction off. So that's on auction off. So, Are the people doing, did they do an auction to or did they just do a cute little raffle? Like everybody take their winning tickets from the arcade and we've got some fun prizes. Still weird. Still weird for a wedding. But again, it was her frickin' day and very atypical. And so that was that.

I also didn't mention all the great performances. Stevie Nick. She had Paul McCartney perform. I mean, that part is all cool. We still have not seen much because these people are being real quiet and about it in hopes not to piss her off or whatever. But there was a big sign, which happens at most parties I go to when a reality show is having a sign.

It was your typical big sign. Just you're going in here. There's filming happening and you might be filmed. Well, of course, at a wedding, you're going to have at least a videographer. Even if it's, you know, you're just a normal person having a normal way. wedding. So some people, Swifty's hoping that this will be, in fact, we will see this in some capacity. And they should warn their guests, especially their famous guests, that they're going to be seen. They're going to be featured. This is what's going to make whatever this is, whether it's

something you pay to see, see on a paid platform. It's free. The money goes to charity. She just puts it on her Instagram. I don't know. Get ready to know that if you walk in here, you know, your privacy is not what it's about. It's about what I choose. So, there you go. Also, someone reminded me that Julie Roberts, who was a guest, was in a movie with her called Valentine's Day. Nisi Nash was also in some project with her. So definitely there was ties to everybody. Bowen Yang knew Travis from S&L. I'm not saying any of those people shouldn't have been there, but there was a tie to every single famous person. Ellen wasn't there and Blake lively wasn't there. That's pretty good.

So this other people were like, was this all just, did you have, she have this big wedding to really even stick it to Blake Lively? Yeah, it makes it worse for Blake Lively that it was a thousand person wedding. Of course it makes it worse than if it was just 50 people on an island and she was not there. That friendship has sailed. Just like her boyfriend relationships are over with, friendships can end to. women are always obsessed when a female friendship ends, yet nobody cares when you break up with the father of your three kids. They were like, good, kick them to the curb. But when you want to stop

being friends with someone that you were very close to for five or 10 years, people can't get over the fact that you don't want to hang out with this girl anymore. Just like you don't want to hang out with your husband or your boyfriend anymore. Sometimes you don't want to hang out with this girl anymore. And that is what happened with them. So that was interesting. Also, I came across, this story, I wasn't even aware it was happening. There is this girl who was a producer on The Bachelor. And her name is Julie La Placa or Laplacea. And she was a young female producer on The Bachelor. And she has come out with a book and she's making the rounds and the book is called The Love Producer. And it's about her time working on The Bachelor. And

the juicy scoop on that, the reason she got a book deal is because while she was a producer on the pilot Pete season, do you remember I covered it heavily on juicy scoop? That's when I was very into the bachelor. I was into the pilot Pete because he was from West Lake Village. He was a pilot. His mom was like obsessed with his relationship and she would cry all the time. And then she kind of was a thirst bucket and like was starting, you know, doing her own Instagram and like, I don't know what she was doing, but they've said all of them, I haven't seen pilot Pete in years. But his name was Peter Weber and he was a real pilot. And she said that when the show ended, they dated.

They met each other's families. They had sex. They had secret hookups, all of this between when. And so the show was airing while she was seeing him. I would have to read the book. And I'm, you know what, I'm not to figure out the timeline. because I don't remember, and I'm not going to go back and watch the season. I don't really care.

But the point is, she was his producer, and they had chemistry, and then they had a romantic relationship until he, so then he was like single, and then he met this girl Kelly at the four seasons in Westlake, and then he dated her for a while. Anyway, he is not happy that she wrote this book and talked about how they had this relationship. He asked her to please keep it quarantined. it. And she's like, too bad. It's my personal life. And I'm going to tell the story. And I'm adding this. Pilot Pete, you are a public figure. She can talk about it. And nobody would have wanted, no one would have given her book deal if she didn't have this element of it. So then it gets juicy.

The fans start figuring out that they're actually seeing each other, the sluice. They see that they're following her and they see that she's taking a photo and it looks to be the same restaurant or the same place that he's at, and Reddit starts going crazy. Is he dating one of the Bachelor producers who's a female? She gets a call from Mike Fleece, who's the creator of the whole thing, and he says, hey, I think it would be great if you were the Bachelorette. And I'm going to pitch it to the rest of the producers. And she pees in her pants with excitement. She tells Pilot Pete, he's like, this is great, you're going to be the bachelorette, I can come back and be on it too. I mean, these are two thirsty thirst buckets.

So many times people that start from behind the scenes, they pretend they want to just be behind the scenes, but they actually want to be famous. And clearly she did. And she's, you know, she's working all these hours, helping the girl. She said she worked with Hannah Brown for a while. she was her then producer and you know where she has to act like they're she's their best friend but then she's encouraging them to break up with this guy and then say she's excited to go on the date with this other person one hour later and they need to do that for television and they need to get

the bachelor bachelor bachelor to say these things to camera to get it going and that's why it's always the same thing because they're not that most very creative people and that's why they say this journey and it's authentic and you really challenge me and this, you know, what this is and opening my heart, all the same thing that they say. So she said she was difficult. Hannah Brown is like, whatever, you know, leave me alone. And so she's going around and saying the, oh, so then, oh, so then the other producers say, no, we do not want a former producer being the Bachelorette, just because she may or may not

have fucked Pilot Pete at a family vacation. No. It's too much inside baseball. It'll screw up the whole authenticity or whatever. Too much, you know, magic revealed thing. So she's devastated that she's not going to be the Bachelorette. Pilot Pete is devastated that he can't come back and be on camera for a while. And then many, many years pass. And then she writes this book. And she's doing, you know, interviews and whatnot. And she's just like, like, her. Like, she's just, very like, well, but again, good for you. You got a book deal, you know? But once this story's told, who knows what's going to happen with you? I don't think anyone really cares. But I thought it was interesting that these producers want to, oftentimes, or behind the scenes, people actually want to be

the star. And can you blame them? It's a lot easier being the Bachelorette and getting hair and makeup done and wearing cute outfits and having a bunch of guys claim that they love you, then running around, of course, it's very hard work to be these producers. You have four hours of sleep a night. You're sweating. You're barely eating. You know, you're traveling all around. You're on these long flights to set up a date at the top of a mountain in China or whatever.

And it gets old. And she eventually, she got real burnt out, especially after she was told she couldn't be the Bachelorette. And she quit and then decided I'm going to spill the beans and write this book. And there you go. Okay, now for our interview, you guys are going to really enjoy this. These are the two creators of one of the top production companies called World of Wonder. They do all the drag race shows, documentaries, movies, and their origin story is so interesting.

And we go off in, we start talking about the Kardashians and, OJ and crime and different things about their careers and their relationship, which even they were surprised about when I asked, I really think you're going to love it. And I know you're going to love it. So here we go. Enjoy. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. I am so excited to have the creators of one of the top production companies in Hollywood World of Wonder. You may have heard of it. They do all the drag race, movies, documentaries, great comedies. Welcome, Randy and Fenton, the creators of it. I'm so excited that you guys wanted to come on Juicy Scoop.

We're excited to be here. Thank you. Welcome. Welcome. I loved the movie called Stop That Train, which is so funny. And it's so clever. We watched it last night, Drake and I. And he was dying laughing.

And it is for the people that may remember, one of the funniest comedies I've ever seen, kid. It's like when I knew like I understood comedy was airplane. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which I felt it, it emulated that with the, with the jokes, like how many jokes a minute got in this thing that was so clever and so funny. How did you guys come about doing this movie? Well, actually, it was originally called Drag Queens on a plane, and it was originally set on a plane.

Oh. So, because the homage, the inspiration is airplane. I mean, I agree. It is one of funniest movies ever made. And we talked with RuPaul for a long time about doing a movie and wanting it to be broad, wanting it to be stupid, wanted to be really funny. And I don't know, over five years ago, we worked with these amazing writers. Connor and Christina.

who wrote a VH1 movie for us, The Bitch Who Stole Christmas, which also featured a number of amazing drag queens in Rupal. And it was so funny. So we had been wanting to work with them again, and we called them up and said, hey, you know, let's do this, let's do a movie, drag queens on a plane,

and can you guys write it? And so that was the first step, was figuring out, you know, come up with some money, getting them to write it, not that much money. And then figuring out, you know, who could we get to direct this. We wanted someone who was super funny and had an amazing studio track record because we did want, we wanted to play, you know, in the big leagues with it.

So we, so Adam Shankman came on board who is an amazing director and. Remind people of some other hits that he's had. Hasbury. Yeah. Yeah, he did hairspray. Enchanted to. He's done a lot of big studio movies and he's got a movie coming out with Arnold Schwarzenegger. A Christmas movie, yeah. So he and he is part of, you know, it's a lot of the people in the movie, a lot of the people who worked on the movie, they're all part of the

World of Wonder family in a way and the drag race family. Adam's been on the show many times. He's also an amazing choreographer. He's done some of the challenges. Jamal Sims was the choreographer, who's one of our judges did the choreography. Leland, who does all the musical challenges and writes a lot of the music for Drag Race. He wrote the musical numbers for it. So it was like, it was kind of like calling all our friends in, let's make a movie. And yeah, and also a lot of the people in front of the camera, whether it's the drag queens who are amazing actors. You know, something that prior to RuPaul's Drag Race, it would always be like, oh my God, and can you believe that these are actually men singing this song or whatever?

And it would be, you know, it was always featured in movies and things. But in it that it's such an entertaining show, it made it into mainstream. And I think it's so great that there is an art of drag now that is respected as a creative outlet. And that through the success, these individuals can make, you know, full. living, being successful entertainers and traveling and doing cruises and all that kind of stuff. And I think that's so great. And then I was thinking and watching the show because you, there you have these three mean girl stewardesses, which are really funny. And one's top bitch and one's a druggy kind of a dits. And the other one is just dumb and like they're, but they're all funny together.

And then you have the two best friends. And the Romie and Michelle. Yes, exactly. I was. was just going to say it reminded me of Romeo and Michelle. And so I thought that was, you know, really lovely. And then there was an arc where like maybe their friendship isn't going to make it. Like it's so, it's so funny. And but I was like now, how did you choose? Which five or ten drag queens were going to be featured in this movie because you have a hundred or more to choose from at this point. 700 to choose from. Probably 100 that are maybe, maybe. at the top that are working and have a following and everything? It was difficult.

And also it just, it's almost like they chose us. You know, there are so many talented queens who are booked and blessed and working in television, working on Broadway. They're everywhere. But these guys who ended up being featured, we either had a long history and we knew they could do it and they just seemed right for the part.

It just like all the, I don't know, everything, all the stars aligned. Yeah. And they ended up being the chosen ones. Yeah. And the ones who weren't in it, there's always sequel opportunities perhaps. Yeah, I definitely think so.

You know, with all of that, like in watching it, I'm like, you know, it's interesting, like, that these guys are so funny. And then they get into drag and it just makes for these incredible characters. As a female comedian, I'm kind of like, wow, like, I'm not, I'm not jealous, but it is sort of interesting. Like, were they always funny guys, you know, that then. But once they got to this persona, it really kind of all pops because it's like this extra layer of glam where female comedians were just like ourselves. And if we ever got that overly glam, women would be like, who's this whore?

Like, you know what I mean? They wouldn't really appreciate it. I just started wearing like a skirt on stage after 30 years of doing stand-it because I'm seeing the younger girls do it. But for so long, I felt like, oh, that would be distracting. I'll wear jeans. blouse. Well, I think, you know, I think one of the things about drag is that it allows you to step into another role and another persona that may not be the persona you walk around with in your everyday

life. Yeah. And it gives you a license and a freedom and can also at the same time be a kind of armor, you know? Yeah. So that where someone might be actually in real life, almost introvert, this, like, they're glam thing just gives you permission to go all out. Now, I sounds like I'm speaking as someone who knows drag intimately.

Randy and I have actually done drag a couple of times. Last century, right, at Wig Scott, you know. So we're not really professional drag queens by any means. But I think that that's part of it, that it gives you a freedom and a license, a license to thrill. I think there also, the queens who are featured in. in the movie, they're all really actors. Oh, definitely.

So it's more their acting chops than their drag that made it worked and got them in the movie. And so it's a slightly, and not all the, like there are amazing drag queens who aren't necessarily great actors, but they're amazing drag queens. They either have a specific persona or they're like total fashion queens. and they have a look. Right. Or they're better at the singing and the dancing and pulling off like an impression or whatever.

I totally agree. I think it's just, yeah, it's fascinating because I agree too. And I also think it's kind of great. It's kind of like the early days of the rock band Kiss in that they would wear these makeup. And we never knew what they look like so then they could go out in public and not be approached. And I think it's kind of cool that these guys,

when they're not doing drag, they are dressed like you guys. They're men and they wouldn't be bothered and people run up to them. But then when they want to do something or are working, then they are these, you know, enjoy the fame when they're working, sign everything,

but they're not being approached at Trader Joe's per se. Yeah, because celebrity is a weird thing that way, right? Yeah. Celebrity is sort of the disease of the 21st century. And I think it's amazing how desperate so many people are to have it without understanding how toxic it can be, right? And how difficult it can be. Yeah, absolutely.

Oh, that's so wise. I think I lifted it from you. Well, yeah, maybe. But there you know. Right. Well, it can be for some people, especially like reality stars and stuff. I think it could be quite addictive. Yes.

Because, but with reality stars, which, you know, is different with actors, drag queens, singers, they are famous for being themselves. And so then when that runs its course, or they're a reality star or a real housewife that doesn't get asked back, it's like, I don't know how to live

because every September, the crew comes into my house. And we have, I've had this routine for 15 years, and now I have nothing, and I'm going to lose this fame, and I don't know how to parlay it into, you know. Do you think they cut out,

Kardashians are Kardashian like at home. That's how they actually are 24-7. Well, you know, I knew them very well right from the beginning. And for like the first, I would say, like eight years, they were seen as like trash in Hollywood. Like Hollywood people were not looking to be their friends. If they did watch it, they weren't gushing over them on a talk show panel like they are now. Now everybody is a content creator.

Now it's cool to like the Housewives and citizens. next to Andy Cohen, you could have an Oscar and say, I'm obsessed with the Real House as a Potomac, and it's totally fine. But back then it was kind of, so they were just having their parties and inviting the same people that they invited before the show and everything. And then when it started to become the J-Lo's and the Tommy Hill figures and all of that, which I am like, yeah, girl, go on Tommy's boat. You don't need to hang out with the 818 Valley crew anymore. Like, you moved on, like skyrocket to the sky. Like, I don't care. But I do think it just like anybody, they get to a level.

And also the security, the horrible thing that happened to Kim, that changed things as far as like being as comfortable. Because they did love the fame so much. They did love going out and having paparazzi. And now I think it's very calculated when they need to go out for press. They will. Otherwise, everything can come to the house. You know, they don't have to shop. They don't have to do anything like that.

And so, no, I think now that the show's gone on so long, I think it's a win-win in that as you get older, even if you live next door to your mom and stuff, you're not spending as much time with your parent. And that was Chris's plan all along, was to get them all in Hidden Hills, have them on a show, be able to work with them forever. And as a mom, it's every parent's dream. Yeah. And this is like the perfect thing. They all are successful in their own right. They all have their own homes. But then the show, the reason I think they keep the show going is to stay relevant and stuff.

But they don't have to, clearly, for money or anything else. I mean, they're, but I think it's their way of like, we get to hang out and have a salad. And all we have to do is talk about that, you know, Kim was a little bitchy last night. And we can have a salad and we can knock it out in three hours. And, you know. It's so true. I think that's part of it. You know, they've really worked it out perfectly.

We were reminiscing about that time, like the mid-90s, you know, with OJ. Oh, yeah. Because how prescient to kind of figure all that stuff out and do it then. They actually, don't you remember that Kim and her mom came to World of World War? Before the show. Yeah. They came to World of Wonder, and we met with them about doing a show. Oh, before the Ead.

We could have been the production. Before the E thing. And tell me what their pitch was. Who brought them in? First of all, weirdly, I'm trying to think, did Steve, because we had done a series about vivid, remember? Oh, Vivido Valley. Yeah, Pornow Valley, it was called. We did it for Showtime.

Stop it. And. Stop. Because one of my wonderful traits in this world is that I remember shows vividly that don't vivid, no pun intended, that maybe didn't make it that I thought were the most brilliant things. and that is one of the shows. Oh my God. Because I remember everything about it. The one family, he's running for mayor.

It was a Romeo and Juliet set in the valley between the king of porno in the valley and this aspiring mayor who was Latino and their kids loved each other, but they both had like, quote, unquote, go, traditional families. Brilliant. I was so excited. Well, it was like, you know, the life of Born Star isn't always. What you see is a consumer may be just... And you know that Steve...

Yeah. What was his name? Steve Hirsch. Steve Hirsch. That owned Vivid. Then went on to date Melissa Rivers for quite a while. Oh, I didn't know that. Yes.

And Joan Rivers was pushing that. She loved it because he was married. Right? He didn't have a married and some kids. He got divorced. And then he was dating Melissa for like a while. Oh, I didn't know that. And it was kind of like,

wow. And then of course Vivid Steve Hirsch allegedly has a role in whatever the truth or the truth may not be with the sex tape getting out there. And if was there a deal and that's why I like

I forget who introduced us to I think they were shopping around for a production company for the Kardashians. And and I think what I understood was we weren't chosen because of our relationship with Steve Hirsch. That's right. That's right.

Because we had made Pornow Valley. Yes. Then Steve Hirsch, they... Was it called Pornow Valley? Pornowalli. Yeah. I remember that we also, um, we spent a lot of that time talking about Kathy Lee Gifford because you and I had just...

Oh, yeah. We had this afternoon meeting. This is so random. No, this is so good. With Kathy Lee, um, in New York. Uh-huh. In a limo. Yeah, you remember?

And we were just driving around and we drank wine and we got a little old hipsy. It's a stretch. Like it just like that's how it fit into her schedule. Kathy Lee was friends with Chris Jenner. Yes. That's how she came up because Chris said, oh, I think, were we going to cast her in Party Monster? Wasn't she going to play Michael's mom? That's what the meeting was about. But what I remember from that meeting was drinking in a limo with Kathy Lee and her at one point saying the difference between bitter and better is one letter. And actually, we were meeting with her. Wait, Kathy said that?

Yeah, the difference between bitter and better is one letter. Isn't that good? That is brilliant. It's so good. I love that. And the reason we met with her is because she had seen the eyes of Tammy Faye and she was thinking about having a documentary. Uh-huh.

Doing a documentary. About herself. Yeah. Which kind of would be really good right now. She's selling the $100 million house. Uh-huh. And I just saw a little interview about that, that beautiful Connecticut home on the water. She did everything.

And it was, Randy. Yes. Okay. Sorry. Excuse me. We got to go. I would love to see it because, well, I had a weird Kathy Lee's story. That's not bad, but it was strange.

Okay. So I'll get to that a minute. But in hearing the interview about her selling the house and she's like, we don't need to sell it. There's no music anymore. Did we hear the same thing? Yes. Where she's like, I used to have all these. friends come over and everything.

And the kids were younger. And then, of course, her husband's passed quite a while ago now. And now the kids are not just out of college. They're at least one is married with kids or they're both married with kids. And, you know, you never know how far it is to get to grandmother's house. And they're like, well, why wouldn't you keep it? You know, all the comments are like, why wouldn't you keep it? And she's just like, you know, you get to a certain age and friendships

change and things like that. And she is well into her 60s or late 60s. And, you know, the friends that were coming over are probably not in the energy or the health to still come over and have those parties. And it's almost probably sad at that point where if she just had a fresh start somewhere else, maybe, you know, in a high-rise condo or maybe in a community that has more community going on that aren't $100 million houses, but maybe they're $7 million. houses around a country club or something and she can go meet people.

I just, yeah, I thought it was, I think it's, you know, an element of life no matter how rich you are, that things change when you get older and your kids get older. I felt for her doing that. I was sad. It was sad. But it's also like she should enjoy. You know, she's worked her whole life. And like this could be a great new chapter is what she's saying.

And, you know, I can't imagine how much. stress goes on with a house like that. Even if you have a house manager and everything. You know, someone says like, what does anyone that rich have to worry about? And I'm like firing people. Firing people that you love or people that you liked or,

you know, well, that person didn't work out and this person didn't work out. That is, that's more money and more problems. Like that is probably the hardest thing I think for someone really wealthy that has, you know,

people running their homes and their companies and everything like that versus not being well. healthy, you know. And it's plumbing. I mean, every house, the more lose you've got, the more problem. Yeah, we just had like a water heater thing. And I'm like, but how the tremendous to deal with it? And I'm like, what would I, he's like, what would you do if I, you have it around? I go, I think I just have a little man move in. I would just need some dude because I'm like, I don't even, there's so many things. And so, and I'm so grateful to, again,

have the issue that I even have a water heater. But like, so imagine a hundred million dollar house, that size and who you're going to choose and is this person stealing or you're taking advantage or whatever and you wake up and you're stressed about is there a leak? I don't know.

She probably's just like, I don't need this. Maybe she just wants to be in a high-rise condo where she locks the door and leaves. I think it might be time for her documentary. I think so. I mean, all the exciting parts, the children making the clothing and she didn't know.

The affair through the window. they got the photo of them making out with the stewardess. It's a great life. The Christian singing. Her being really great friends with the mistress of the Gary monkey business running for president.

He was running for president. I don't know, but that was her good friend. They were in the Christian singing world. And also just like how iconic she was as a morning television. Like that was the beginning of that world. I mean, Tammy Fay was a little, you know, they're in the same family. Right.

And then, yeah, and also being like a super Christian woman that's kind of also like a gay icon, like the gay lover. And that's one thing I think is kind of interesting too. Yeah. Is that like, remember when this story, I don't know if you know about this, but in the real housewife world, Kathy Hilton. And you had Lisa Rina in your show, which was great. And oh, by the way, when I was watching this with my son Drake, who we loved it, thought it was so funny. There's like seven people that movie that have been on Juicy Scoop. When I was like, they've been on Juicy Scoop.

They've been on Natasha Lazaro, Guy Brenna, like, you know, Lisa Renna, like all these people that I was like, oh, this reporter, but on juicy. You know, like, so, but anyway, because I've had this a long time to 11 years. Tell me when you're ready to do my documentary. I cannot wait. I always said, like, I'd be like walking home from school. from my little mile and a half from St. Mel's and my parents forgot that they like drove me that day. So I didn't have my bike because it was raining that morning. And they just forgot because they're doing real estate.

And I remember I'm like walking home and I'm looking at my feet. I'm like, this is going to be the opening scene from my made for TV movie about my sad life. Oh my God. But that will be it. I don't know what their thing is going to be. But so the Kathy Lee thing, I went on her, went on Kathy Lee and Hoda for like one of my books had like a great experience whatever and then we did this this after lately episode which was like a per almost like a curber enthusiasm when i was on chelsea lately and it was like an improv thing

but they were kind of mean and like i didn't understand but i don't know if they were just trying to be funny and then i then i went back on again and i had this it was for this this this show called all about sex but i was wearing like this like kind of i thought a daytime talk show hold show at dress and I had like my boobs out and she was like what's going on there like looking up my boobs and making me kind of feel like while you're on the air or I think it might have been the air or maybe right before but um it's all good like it's all fine it was just interesting I just I thought they were always both really funny together and you know now it's a new generation of the show but it's I think it's fascinating yes I do think it's time for her and um but yeah

Oh, I was going to say Kathy Hilton. Sorry, I'm going on. Oh, yes. So Kathy Hilton, there was this conference that happened while they were filming and which Lisa Rennah said they left this caribou club in Aspen. And in the Sprinter van where there were no cameras and no one recorded it, Lisa Rennett claims that Kathy Hilton was saying very nasty things about the DJ and using a homophobic slur. because he didn't play her request of Michael Jackson. Okay. And she denied it.

And we really don't know, but another housewife kind of confirmed that Lisa was telling the truth. And I think most people think maybe she was telling the truth. But I just think the gay men in this world, they don't really care. And I'm just like, I don't know.

Should they care? Why don't they care? Why wouldn't they care if that is true? And then there was that whole issue with her being the grand marshal of gay pride. Did this story resurfaced during that? This is what I think. It's one of those things that like I talked about the show. I'm like, they don't care.

She has been wonderful to the gay community. Her daughter's Paris Hilton. She's never shown any kind of behavior like that. She's, you know, hired many. gay people. And so nobody cared. Lisa Rennel left the show on her own accord, I believe. And Kathy stayed as like a friend and she's kooky and she's funny and nobody,

nobody cared. And then she was going to be the Grand Marshal as I think she's done in the past. Uh-huh. And then as we were talking before the show started, eight people, maybe one, brought it up and just made enough of a stink about it. And then she just, what can she do? She's like, well, if you don't want me, that's fine. But like, look at the last 65 years of my life. But it's this one story, which again, it really is just a hearsay thing.

There isn't a video of her. But that's cancel culture in the era of social media. And I'm just waiting for cancel culture to be canceled because it's so crazy. And I also think even if that word was said in a drunken, tired night of shooting. and she was pissed about other things that it rolled out. I think it's bad, but I think gay men of a certain age, they give her a pass. Yeah.

And why would they give her a pass, in your opinion? Why don't they turning all against her, as I don't think they should either? There are such bigger battles for all of us to focus our energy on, and it really is redonculus. And like, look who is at the White House. And part of the reason he's in the White House is because we're busy, like, trolling people and policing. Because he targeted trans people. That was like a huge last minute focus of his campaign.

And I think the answer to your question is I think queer people are so used to being attacked and judged and sort of marginalized that maybe they do. have more capacity to forgive and forget or move on, rather than just be in attack mode all the time. I know. So it's interesting because sometimes I think the person in the attack mode is not the person, is not the marginalized person. Right, right. You know, and it's kind of their way of like tapping themselves on the back,

you know, a little bit. The quote, protector of the margin line. The president who is always posing as the most victimized, ill-treated person on earth. the most powerful man in the world complaining endlessly about how badly treated he is. True. Please. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of people of celebrity find themselves in that victim mode, you know, because it just feels whatever they're going through. They're like, you have no idea. Like, when we talk about online stuff, I'm getting death threats. And I'm not opposing that you aren't.

But I am saying like, it is just. just a phone. It is an anonymous, you know, like, I get it. Like, if it's really specific and you've been docs, like, definitely go to the police. But also, you could just block that person and you could take two weeks off of your phone. Yeah. And just, and you don't have to make an announcement that you're taking two weeks off. Nobody is like, where is? Heather hasn't posted for two days. Nobody is like going in the streets and trying to find you. Like, just take. Take a break. You don't do those announcements where you're like, I'm stepping back from social media.

Well, first of all, I've never stepped back. Taking a mental health break. I've never stepped back, but I've definitely like got on vacation and like posted last and was like, you know, I just kind of want to enjoy my vacation. And I know that you guys will be okay, you know, and like I still put out a show. So like just relax. But, you know, I do, yeah, I don't think people need. No one's going to worry about like unless it's really, TMZ, Heather is missing. she went to Trader Joe's, she never came back, it's been 24 hours, I don't think my fans need to take to the streets.

You know, it's like... No, but if you have a book, your next book coming out, maybe go to Trader Joe's and disappear and leak that to TMZ. I've always... There you go. I've always thought this would be a great movie idea, okay? When there was a time when I was, and I've told this story in the show, so I want to tell it really quickly. But, you know, and just trying to get an agent, you know, and I'd just like be doing some stand up the improv for eight minutes and nobody's coming and I invite the eight agents and

no you know, they don't feel. And I'm like, what if, and I was like walking to my car around the corner of Melrose and I'm like, what if I just faked my own kidnapping? This is before Sherry Pippini and stuff before it was in to fake your own. I was like,

what are I faked me on? And I like left my VHS stand up tapes in the car along with my head shots so that the KTLA can like play that over and over again. Where is she? and then I was like, this could be a movie and I get a little, and I'm like hiding out in someone's house. But then I'm like, but then the flip side is all my thirsty friends start to use the publicity for themselves.

We're going to do a charity event or we all do standard to try to find Heather just for them to get like, and then I'm like, and then know what everyone forgets that I'm missing. But then when you came back and all was revealed, then you'd get canceled. Right. How could you make us worry about you?

Like on the late night talk shows. Yes. Tratching you. Having gotten the agent that you wanted. Yeah. That's good. That's good. That's the second idea we got today.

Thank you. So how did the two of you meet before starting this empire? We met at NYU in the graduate film program last century. That's such a classy story. Yeah. It was very classy. It's classy. The education, you're in the graduate program, you're both know what you're doing.

It's like, it's like a beautiful, it's like what you'd hope that it would be, but it's not as juicy of a story as what it could have been. Well, the juicy part is that we used to cut classes. Okay. Our editing class we used to cut. And right around the corner was a bar called the pyramid. The pyramid, just the pyramid, on Avenue A. Fent and I would go there regularly. And that's where we were really introduced to our obsession with drag.

Because all the, you know, it was the 80s in New York and the East Village. And there were all these drag queens and there were incredible artists and they were, we loved them. And we were obsessed early on. It felt like being in Hollywood and going to the Academy Awards would be like, you know, it was so glamorous. and we met Rue, you know, within the first, not the first year, probably the second year we were there. But that was a beginning, and we quit school.

So it's not, it was a new, you quit the graduate program. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was a new kind of drag, though, too, because you had like, in the West Village, you had the sort of old school drag, which was Judy Garland. There you go, right. And this was much more sort of. Where they would just be doing already famous singers. Yes. Judy Garland, Joan Rivers, like that kind of stuff.

And just matronly drag. Great drag. Not to like, but more show tunes drag, which we love that drag. A lot. Caff towns and showtons. Yes. But the East Village thing was more new wave, almost punk. And certainly the brew when we first met him was totally complete drag punk.

He used to call it gender fuck, right? I mean, with sort of shredded. bin liners and football shoulder pads and jock straps and waders. I mean, it wasn't necessarily glam. It was stunning. But it was this sort of mishmash, this sort of... Gender fuck. Yeah.

And just taking bits and pieces from like commercials and advertisements and popular culture and kind of cutting it all up. You know, it was this kind of kooky. And Rue was kind of fully realized back then. He was saying everybody say love. He was putting posters up. RuPaul is everything. He was making music.

He was on his way. And we really enjoyed hanging out with him because even though Fen and I, we weren't really, I mean, we were going to clubs, but we were on the sidelines. We DJed for a while, but really we were watch. We weren't partying and doing drugs

or anything like that. We had jobs by day. We were working in the day. Yeah. But Rue was doing everything at that time. But also he could have these, like we talked about things with him. We talked about pop culture. We talked like he was so plugged in with everything.

We, um, and he had a plan. You know, he definitely was on his way. Was Rupal one of your first projects that really got your production, how many off the ground? Our first real. television project was for Channel 4 in the UK. And it was called Manhattan Cable. And basically we licensed public access shows in Manhattan,

which we would watch all the time, including Robin Bird. Which is there's a documentary about Robin Bird coming out. I used to watch the ones back in the day, the L.A. ones, which was a lot of porn stars. Yes. A lot of porn stars, and I was, like, fascinated by the porn stars, hence why I love you. I love, like, the porn, like, that they were, like, treated it and, like, they were, like, happy porn stars. Like, they were not ashamed.

They were not drug to do it. Like, they were doing it because they wanted to do it. And they had this level of fame. Yeah. We were kind of obsessed with all the porn stars back then, too. Yeah. Didn't really watch the porno. It was, like, more about all the other part of it.

When you wake up in the morning and you leave the house and you, you know, cross services on set and you're doing an anal scene but you have to pick up the kids by three. Yes. Yeah. Mercedes-Benz. That was Mercedes-Benz, you're right. So with Rue, we knew who Rupal was as Rupal, songs, hits, pop culture, when the show started of the drag race. How did that come about?

Well, we're working with Tom Campbell, who is the creative executive at World Director. Director at World of Wonder. And he so said, it's time for, we'd done the Rupol talk show. So we'd done that, you know, I don't know how many years ago. And we talked about doing a Roo show, but it hadn't really gelled. And Tom was definitely a driving force in saying, let's do this competition show. and Rue was ready to do TV again.

But at first, Rue was like, I'm not sure if I want to do a competitive show. And so we did develop some other things and pitched them to Rue. And then Rue was like, we should do a competitive reality show. And I think for all of us, the idea was with drag, you can kind of parody every competitive reality show out there. It really gave us permission to the format. drag queen. Yeah.

It's like a drag queen that reinvents. Well, yeah, I, so I did one episode. Yeah, you did a great episode.

And I got, I was super lucky because I got to do the snatch game for those that don't know. That is where really the actor outshines the person

that just can emulate a look or do great makeup or lip sync because they have to do basically a really great impression. And, and so that was

so fun to judge that. And that's where you kind of really see that, you know, some struggled with it and some just killed it. And, um, but then also like, I remember sitting through the judging when we're like, who's going to make the next round or whatever. And there was this one drag queen. And she was young, like 19. And I'm like there and she's looking at me and she's like, like she really didn't think she'd be picked. And like the mom in me is like, it's going to be okay. Like I was like, I was a lot. Like I was like, and I wasn't, I don't know if we really had a say and like who made it her. I can't remember. But like, you know, of course I would give like accolades or whatever or I'd be like, well, but I just felt so bad. And like her story was like she's only 19 and she's like lived

in Bakersfield. I don't even know. But I just remember seeing her face in front of me and how nervous she was and like shaking. She made it through. Oh, you remember this? Yeah. I think it was Isadora Delano. Yes. And she actually ended up in the top four of... Yes. It was really like such a fun experience. You also had on that episode, because that was an amazing cast and an amazing snatch game.

And I believe Bianca Del Rio was Judge Judy. That was the best. And then I was in Bianca's movie. She had me be a reporter in it. Back in 2018, it came out. And yeah, her judge Judy was just... I was like, wow, this is, you know, as someone who does impressions and stuff, I was so flattered that I got to do that because that's not in every episode, you know, the snatch came. And it was just so, like, just so clever, so funny and such a good time.

But, and Rue is such, is so good as a president in this stop that train. Like, first of all, we never see her in a sensible, mature wig. Uh-huh. Super flattering. Like super flattering. Like I was kind of like, ooh, I kind of like like this look on her face more than the big. And just so, like, so funny. Like just so funny with, you know, like they do this thing.

So she's the president. And it's like, where's my rating, you know? And there were just so many. I don't want to give the jokes away. But I'm telling you, like, you guys need to watch it because it is just like a good time. You watched it with your son, right? And you say your son is straight.

Yes. And he loved it. Well, he has a great sense of humor. So I was like, okay, we're going to watch this because he works with me. And I go, you won't, you know, he doesn't know airplane, whatever. So you don't need to. But it's just that joke, that joke, that pile on joke, like, you know, kind of funny things. And nothing is too stupid.

Yeah, we're boom, boom, boo. And he's like, this is so dumb. This is so funny. Like it is dumb and it's like you know, you know, and maybe if you didn't understand campy humor or drag humor, you might be like, what is this? But I think even people that are like, what is this? Still laughed and enjoy it. You know, so it's really great. I think also so much of humor and pop culture has gotten campier.

Like I think there's a broader understanding of that sensibility. Yes. Then people realize. Yeah, and it was just so funny to see, like I said, so many of my friends that I've known throughout the years, whether it's growlings or stand-up or whatever, have a funny little part in it or big part or whatever. It was just, yeah, it was really fun. Wait, I want to go back to one thing that we talked about because I feel like my audience is going to be like, what happened? So when Kim and Chris Jenner then pitch their show and you said, we didn't get it, what was your vision for if you had? gotten it of a reality show.

Would it have been what you saw on E? Well, we'd never have to work again for one thing. No, we did question it, though. I think that we weren't sure what it would be. I mean, the initial meeting was a meet and greet. It was a love fest, though. It was a love fest. And yeah, but we didn't pitch out a hardcore dynamic or a format for them.

We just hung out and talked. And I remember Kim came in with sunglasses on and then took them off when she sat down in the conference room and just took everything. And she wasn't a star then, though. No, but she really was. She behaved like one. She really was meant to be a star. And when you see even old, like, videos of her at like 14, like, I'm famous and blah, blah, blah. I remember, like, you know, meeting them for the first time.

And it was over 20 years ago. And I was like, oh my God, I'm going to have lunch with Courtney and Chris Jenner. All I want to do is ask about OJ. But that would probably be offensive. So we have, you know, half of our meal. My younger son is like in a stroller. And then I go, do you mind if I kind of ask? Because, of course, I was obsessed with the OJ trial.

I lived in Brentwood at the time. And I always lived true crime. And I was just fascinated by the whole thing. And they were just open-faced. sandwiches. And like just right away, Courtney was like, well, we kind of took my dad's side because we felt sorry for him. And we've being that OJ's innocent because we felt bad. And then Chris was like and, you know, at the time Robert and Chris were co-parenting quite nicely. She's pregnant with Kendall or got pregnant with Kendall right after. And but was during the trial. And she's like, we'd have to, you know, meet at like a hillside to exchange the kids. because the paparots who were following and all this other stuff

and I'm like how weird it was and then I remember I'm like so the day that you went for the verdict what were you expecting and she's like

we all were expecting guilty she and at the time Bruce everybody thought it would get and so it was just like really so I was always just like oh these people are gonna this is fascinating but at the time it was just

I remember then another time we go to lunch Chris goes, I have a big announcement, big announcement. So Kim was filming with Paris today on her show. And Paris said, announced, Kim, you're going to be my new best friend. And the producers loved it because Paris didn't know if her chihuahua was pregnant. And they thought it was so funny that Kim got a real like EPT test and was trying to see if the chihuahua could pee on it. And they thought that was such a funny scene.

and I was like, and I remember at the time I go, wait, Kim wants to be on TV because at the time, they had their little baby store and Kim was, wanted to be a stylist to the stars. And she was meeting with like the style channel, which doesn't exist anymore, to do like how to organize your closet. And they were all super, super anal organized. Like, I think the only one that's not crazy like that is Kylie, which is more like the creative, what, not that she's messy, but. All the girls are like, you know, well, I don't have that gene. And I'm like jealous of the gene.

We're like, I can't go to bed before. Everything has to be hung up and put away and in color coordination. But they're all like that. So it's like that's the way Kim was and Chris was and Chloe is. And, you know, so it's like that I just was like, oh, I remember thinking, oh, she wants me on TV. I thought she just wanted to be like in fashion. Do you know, I wanted to go back to OJ because we were obsessed with that whole time. the local news was always so crazy.

And the one thing that I remember so clearly was Robert Kardashian. And it was like, what's in the bag, Mr. Kardashian? Remember he went to the estate and left with a bag? And there was this whole sort of meme or sort of went viral like, what was in the bag? What did Robert Kardashian take away from OJ's house? And then there was another thing. We still don't know.

I know. We still don't know. And I don't know that we. ever know. What do you think? I think it was evidence. And I think he was, I think he got in this weird position and he thought he would be guilty. I think he knew he was guilty and I thought he'd be guilty.

And all I have to do is look at that face. It wasn't a face of an attorney that's like, got him. I told you hugging, crying. It wasn't the face of a defense attorney that felt like their guy did the, it was like he was, I think he was. I think he was the best friend truly and he knew and there was and he was confided in but he gave you know

the case was Robert Shapiro and all that and then of course Johnny Cochran and so he was there as the friend and he wasn't really part of it and he was really his business at that time though he was an attorney was music management so he wasn't like really working on the dream team it was just more like

I think he wanted to stay on it so that he wouldn't be deposed. Oh, that's good. I just thought of that right now. That makes sense. My sister's a criminal defense attorney. That makes a lot of sense. So I think maybe that's why,

because I feel like they knew they had a super volatile relationship. And you know who really got the short end of the stick at all of this? Was Faye Resnick. Because when her book came out, I read that book. And for 20 years, people, you know, thought she was an opportunist and she did Playboy and this and that and she's selling out for, and then about 20 years later, all these other documentaries came out

and every single thing in that book has been proven to be true. From like this other, you know, him looking through the window when she had another boyfriend and like all this stuff that at the time people still were like, well, could it be that, you know, they were doing cocaine and it was an angry drug. drug dealer. Like, no, this, there wasn't the case, you know, like. And so I, I just, and Faya's wonderful. Like, she's always so nice. And I've asked her to like, come on the show and she said yes. And then one day she called me and she was like, you know, it just brings up so much if I talk about it. Like, and I was like, I totally get it. Don't. Who cares? Like, you know, as much as I'd

love to have it on the show. Like, I can imagine the hate and the weirdos and everything that will then pick apart your story or accuse you of being an opportunistic person. When this was truly like Chris and Faye and Nicole and this other girl, I've Coriant Coroner or something, they were like four best, like four best mom friends. Like all the kids were preschool like Chloe's age. That's how they knew each other and like, and a couple of them were divorced. A couple of them were like, fun and going out, but essentially they were like very active moms. And it was just, yeah, that's why it was so fascinating. And then I rented the house right across the street.

So for years, even a couple years later, people would come park in front of my house and go with like, it was like, I couldn't, you know, back then there was, it was an old house and brought with a couple girls. Now it's probably $5 million. But you'd look, and then people would be taking photos of the crime scene and they eventually changed the. actual address. Wow. Like they were able to change it. And it was just, yeah, it's fascinating. That whole time, that was like such an amazing era in L.A.

You had the L.A. riots. You had the Menendez brothers. Yes. You had. And they all affected the other cases. Yes. Yeah. Right.

It's like, you know, right from the riots, which was Rodney King and how he was treated. And then to, and then that affected the OJ trial and like a pay back kind of a thing and how, you know, there was such a race divide in L.A. with the police. And it was just something that like we didn't really realize it until years later when people and it was like the beginning of Bob Turr, the helicopter. Yes. Who found everything. Who discovered the Bronco on the on the freeway, right?

And Bob became a woman. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. We did. He was in two things we did. Yeah. she was in two things we did.

We still sort of stay in touch with her. I mean, it's just like an amazing. A crazy time. It's just amazing. Like, you just wouldn't, you know, if someone was to tell someone this 40 years ago, you would go, there's no way this is what. Right. Because there's not just one story.

If someone was to tell. Like my parents died over 10 years ago and I'm always just like. If only you could. You know, like sometimes I've been watching these TikTok for people, people go to like the grave site of like somebody and they they tell them like what's been going on with other people and it's such a like a joyful way to remember the dead because they're like you won't believe it and they're like oh and and Kelly got pregnant I get I know and like whatever it is and I'm like yeah I'm always just like oh my god my parents would just be like what but aren't they

watching yeah they're watching but it's like I don't want to be the one to tell them so And then it's like, I've got the juicy scoop or the last 12 years that's been going on in the world and you just won't believe it. Like, you just will not believe. It's, yeah. So I think, though, in getting back to the carnage of a little bit, they had that taste of fame, unwillingly, not wanting to be a part of it. What, the sex tape? No, the OJ. And then I think they, she was always like a little bit.

She was always at events when she and Bruce doing like the workout. stuff and everything like that. I think she always liked that. She was always made for it. It was perfect. Yes. And then it was, but then it was like, oh, they ran this. She ran a little, you know, baby store in Calabasas that I would go to. And, you know, and, but she would meet people and, you know, she had some famous friends, you know, Sugar Ray Leonard and, like, Allen Thick. But it wasn't like, this is what, this is the end goal. But then when it happened, she was like, of course this was meant to happen. Yeah. It seems to me. me like she was incredibly aspirational and was a player.

But, you know, I think reality television hadn't evolved into the obvious option yet. Like that was still in its infancy. And so the timing was all perfect. I mean, so many things, don't you think, especially being in this business, there's so many times that when there's a show, I think Valley Porn. Was that what it was called? Porn O' Valley. Porto Valley. Ahead of its time.

There's some shows that are just... A lot of ours are ahead of their time. Yeah, sometimes you're just the right timing and you want to be ahead of your time because you want to be the trailblazer. And then sometimes something is ahead of its time. And you're like, that was just ahead of its time. And people just didn't get the brilliance

or didn't catch on. And I feel like with them, it was the most perfect timing. But you nailed it because it was a reality show. everything that was happening in those years was a reality show. The news cycle was full of one amazing story after another. And all the details were just so fascinating and sort of ordinary. You know, like on the OJ thing, Patrick Healy, the local news correspondent, he went to the ice cream shop where Nicole was at and then bought a cone of ice cream

and went back to her place to see how much it had melted. You know, and he's like showing the ice cream cone. Like sort of ridiculous stuff, you know, and sort of, I don't know. I think if reality TV hadn't been invented, what's the phrase? I don't know. If it hadn't happened, someone would have had to invent it is the gist of it. I don't know. Yeah.

And with, like your adventures in this partnership together, was there ever a time that you guys were like, I hate you. Oh, God, every day. Still. We fight a lot in the edit bay. Oh, Randy, we fight all the time. We do fight all the time in a great way. And you've only ever been platonic business partners?

No, no, no. We were together for 20 years. Oh, you were? And when we were at film school, it wasn't like we were in the closet, but we were in the same class at film school. And in the morning, we'd go to class and we'd walk in separately. We would be like, okay, you go. You go in first or follow in.

Because, I mean, it was a different time. Of course. But what we did was the final assignment of the term was to make a music video. I mean, this was a time of MTV. You had to make it on film. It was film school. But it was like take a song and make a music. Randy did, I like to live in America, West Side Story.

In a shopping, in a grocery store. Supermarket. Yeah. And I did radioactivity by craftwork. But then we did an extra film. Secretly. We did Boys Keep Swinging by David Bowie. And we slipped it into the pile.

They showed them all to the class. And we put this one in anonymously. And it was us. In our underwear. In our underwear, yes. Well, not just, I wasn't porno. It was like it, but it was sort of, it was hardy. It was sort of like.

So we didn't put our faces in. So it was like. It was like Pop-Tarts popping up from toasters and just campy imagery. So then how did you break up romantically but stay business partners? Does this only work out because you are both men? I think that helps. I think that helps. I don't think they can do that.

I don't think they, I don't know. I feel like they have a harder time staying friends. I don't know, though. I'm not a lesbian. But I definitely think it's rare that a heterosexual couple can. can, I think it's getting better with anybody learning to like co-parent and like get over it. But I don't know, I think it's hard.

I know there's been people that have been romantic and can keep their business going. But I mean, I think it's a challenge. So how did it happen? I think it took a couple of minutes, but it was never, I mean, first of all, we were together for 20 years. We worked together.

We lived together. it was this real tight collaboration. And when we broke up, it wasn't, we never really had lots of fights. No. Like we had a really peaceful 20 years together. And so I think we knew we were going to keep working together. And I think it was more awkward for people around us.

I was going to say, did you have a moment where you went to the staff and the, and we didn't have a meeting, but we told people and were they scared that like this could all crumble? I think there was anxiety there, but I think it was short lived, I think, because really we, you know, it took like six to eight months for it to become very natural. But it wasn't. So then who moved out of the home? I did because why did I? I'll tell you why I did. I did because Fenton fell in love with the house that we were in instantly. And so for me, I felt like this was like me being like selfless.

I did it. That's why I did it, by the way. I made out really well. but that's what I also feel like that is what's really interesting about a gay male romantic relationship too, that there is the logic that is, I believe, special to a man's brain that's different than the logic of a woman. And that I feel like when a heterosexual relationship happens, even though sometimes that can happen and the person can go, you care more about that both than I ever did. but oftentimes it's like a woman hates the boat and she's like I'll take that boat

just to be like and then the guys like you hated that but like you know like just whatever and so sometimes I do feel like there's something in just men in general regardless of sexuality sometimes they just look at things like more black and white and dry and more logical and more financial and I feel like then their breakups can be nicer yeah it wasn't a vengeful breakup you know because we were going to keep working together. So I suppose it wasn't much room to go at it, you know, in like, I think it's so great. I think like anybody would wish to have something where it seems somewhat very.

I think it's also very rarely that it's so mutual. And well, also for 20 years, like our friends, we had the same friend group, our family, like his family, I was very close with his family. with my family, there was, there were deep relationships across the board and those didn't really end. So no one had to pick and choose. No, I don't think so. Because oftentimes in a breakup, it's like who we're getting custody of and who are we, you know, we have to side with the one that we were new first or the one that we were closest with. No, there wasn't that. The one thing that was, we thought we should do couples therapy. And we only went once because it was so ridiculous. We were like,

And in a way, that was helpful in a sense of like, well, look, we certainly know we don't need to do this. And when you went to the couples therapist, was it a gay man? It was a gay man. And he would, he would play act behind like, Fenton would say something to me. And then he would imagine I would, he was my voice. And he would go behind the sofa and say, well, I don't, you know, he would, it was crazy. It was like being... Do you think he wanted to be an actor?

Yes. Oh, maybe. Maybe he was pitching us something. My parents went to marriage counseling. They always went... Did it work? I mean, they died, you know, married. But there were times definitely where my sister and I would go to bed and be like, when will they get a divorce?

Like, can you... And then when they were like old and going to my kids like, you know, T-ball, whatever, people would be like, your parents are the cutest. And I'm like, when they were that cute and age... like whatever, but they went to this marriage counselor and I was doing stand-up and they loved going to see my stand-up.

They loved going to the growlings and seeing my friends and everything. And they would spend the whole time just like bragging about me and talking about me. And then the guy's like, I want to be a stand-up. So then they're like,

oh, you're performing at Luna Park in West Hollywood. I don't think that exists anymore, but it would go to Astaire's. And I'm like, and they liked that place because it was nice. there was easy parking and my mom could get like a salmon dish. You know,

they didn't like when it was just like chicken wings, right? And they'd bring clients. They were realtors. They'd bring clients. And they're like, we're going to bring the marriage counselor. And I'm like, this is so weird mom.

The marriage, she's like, I just think he wants to be a standup. But you know, whatever, he's signing with me. So I don't really care. Let's bring the marriage.

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. That is so funny. But I'm like, okay, so you guys are paying him. But then you're also treating him to the fun night. Like it was just She got him as a client? No, no.

No, they had clients. They were realtors. But no, they would invite real estate clients as well. Okay. And, but like, yeah, it was just so. But no, he wanted to be a stand-up, I think. You know, our other obsession is real estate. Fendon and I've done a lot of real estate television, like million-dollar listings.

Oh, I love it too because I was so my parents were realtors. That's what their business. They were like the first to have bus benches and stuff. And then I remember d a mray? Well this we were woodland hills so it was bomb pam McDonald and welcome you to woodland hills was all over in terrible art and then I was and then I got my license and I would do that in pursuing stand-up or whatever

so it was kind of great so like if someone got a sitcom while I was at the groundlings I wouldn't be sad that they booked something I'd be like you know I think we look for something around 300 in Sherman Oaks which back then you you could get something 300 north of the boulevard in Sherman Oaks. Let's find a cutie for you. And they'd be like, oh, this is great. You know, and then I'd like get the listing or get the sale.

But yeah, I love real estate stuff. Now, do you still do real estate shows? Do you feel that's... We did owning Manhattan on Netflix with Ryan Serram. That was huge. Yeah. And now, was that a big deal for him to skip, to leave Bravo to go to Netflix? Well, Bravo put a pin in a million-dollar listing.

Oh, so then he had it out. Yeah, yeah. So, and with New York first and with L.A., like real estate and Bravo doesn't seem to fully, at the moment, it doesn't seem to I think there's a weird moment in streaming and cable where people are thinking property isn't quite where it's at. I think they're wrong. Yeah.

Because I think we all like to look behind the curtains. I mean, I call that real estate porn. I feel like I like to, especially when it's like OC or whatever. Like I remember I was like I have a pool. I have a, it outs, my house in Lakeita. We have a TV out there. And I'm like, I just want to watch the entire thing of OC, selling OC from my pool. Okay.

Because it's hot, but I'm in my pool, but I'm looking at like oceanfront property. That's great. That's so good. Like I make it like an. That's a scene. I make it like an interactive experience. And then you just like stream the whole thing. From the feet walking down.

Yeah. She's like, I go on vacation. And then you guys always have to, like, who chooses that cheesy music? And I got my heels and I got my money. They have a library. They have a library of,

they just make money on that. Yeah. Well, this has been so much fun talking to you guys. Absolutely love it. We have several projects that we are now doing together. Yes. Zoo? Your documentary.

My documentary. Kathy Lee Giver's documentary. My movies. Yeah. So just you know where to find me. But no, seriously, it was so interesting to hear kind of your history and how you came together. The movie is so funny.

Stop that train. I'm telling you. Bring whomever. It's not too dirty at all. It's just edgy and funny enough. And it's so clever. And there's lots of pop culture. There's even, there's political jokes.

that both sides will love, which I thought was good too. Just the absurdity, like, there's some like VEP moments that I kind of like, that are really funny. You know, though, the satire in there was written to be so ridiculously absurd that it wouldn't look like an attack on... Not at all. But events have so overtaken the movie. Now it looks like it's a real targeted satire.

If only President Gagwell was the president of the United States. And the voted the president was Chief Fern. Yes. She fun. Yeah, just that it's a train and just so clever and funny. So hats off to everybody that put that movie together is really funny. And I want to see Drew wear that wig. I want to see Drew wear that wig a little bit more.

I'm telling you, she looked great. I was like, I like this. Well, here's a little secret. next season of drag race, people are going to kind of gag with some of the hair that Rue is wearing. Good. Good. It's fun. It's so great.

Anyway, tell everybody where they can, anything else you want to, how they can find you or follow you? Do you have your personal Instagram or no or just? Fenton J. Bailey is on Instagram and you're, what are you, Randy? I'm Randy Barbado. Yeah. On Instagram. But people can still see, stop that train.

in movie theaters. And mid-July, it'll be on video on demand, on prime video and Apple TV. And then later this year, it'll be streaming, but we can't say where yet. Oh, that's exciting. And everybody, I'm at Heathermerythorne.comnet for all my things on my Patreon.

Thank you. Love you. Bye. Thank you.