Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald - Hollywood Friends Cleanse, Narcissism and Gaslighting with Dr. Leslie Dobson

Episode Date: February 15, 2024

Psychologist Dr. Leslie Dobson analyzes me! Not just me, but we get into her book “The Friends Cleanse” and how our friendships changed in our post pandemic world. Dr. Leslie has also worked with psychopaths and serial killers so naturally I brought up real housewives and what drives them. She shares about working for a decade in the most dangerous prisons and how she can relate to her life as a mom now. Can children who show sociopathic behavior be cured? What is the best way to manage working and stay home moms at your kids school? Can a friendship shift because one of you went on Ozempic? Best ways to deal with a narcissist and the true definition of gaslighting. We get into it all including my personal life. This is juicy!  Get 20% off @honeylove by going to https://www.honeylove.com/JUICY! #honeylovepod #sponsored  Get 15% off OneSkin with the code JUICY at https://OneSkin.co #oneskinpod #sponsored  Go to https://TheOuai.com and use promo code JUICY for 15% off any product Shop Juicy Scoop Merch https://juicyscoopshop.com  Get EXTRA Juicy on Patreon https://www.patreon.com/juicyscoop  Follow Me on Social Media Instagram: https://www/instagram.com/heathermcdonald  TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@heathermcdonald  Twitter: https://twitter.com/HeatherMcDonald Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Heather McDonald has got the Juicy Scoop. When you're on the road, when you're on the go. Juicy Scoop is the show to know she talks Hollywood tales. Her real life Mr. Sakeman cereal data and cereal sister. You'll be addicted and addicted fast to the number one tabloid real life podcast. Listen in, listen up. Woo, woo. Hannah McDonald.

Juicy scoop. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. Well, here is a juicy one, a first time Juicy Scooper. But a smart pretty lady. I have Dr. Leslie Dobson, psychologist. You know about psychopath, serial killers, narcissistic, shitty friends, the whole lot. Welcome to Juicy Scoop. Thank you.

We are going to get into it. First of all, you have a book that I want to share. Let's just talk about that real quick. Tell us what it is. I wrote a book called The Friend Cleanse. What I noticed was during COVID, even though COVID was horrifying, people really enjoyed it inner personally. Yes. And they were relaxed. They were reserving their energy,

and they were appreciating not being pushed into these events with social friends that were toxic and sucking them dry. And so I started thinking about this idea that once we are out of COVID, what are we going to do? Because now I'm seeing everyone jump back into these relationships and they're drained and they're complaining and they hate everyone but they're still going.

So now we didn't have that external moment to say no, we need to find it in ourselves. So that was what the book is. Let's step back. That is really interesting, the COVID breakup, the COVID friendship breakup. And how some people, you know, it was really great. And I remember Jennifer Aniston said something about it.

She goes, well, I've loved it because I couldn't work in the beginning of it when they were so strict about it. I couldn't work, but neither could anyone else. So as an actor or a creator or whatever, there is that competition that happens where if you're being lazy, if I'm not going on the road and doing standup or whatever, I sometimes I'm like, you know, heart of myself because I see my friends doing it.

And I'm like, come on. But when nobody could do it, it was kind of nice. Yeah. You know, I mean, just for that, obviously the people are gonna get on me, it was awful and no, no, no, no. No, I understand no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, positive to it really. Right. It was people were happier in one of the worst times of our lives. Yeah. And it's strange to say. I picture Jennifer Aniston, you know, almost dying on the morning show. Right. But that's true. Like this is so. Right. Such a great opportunity for us to realize,

hey, we needed this external permission to say no to people we don't like. So tell us about that. What have you discovered? Like what is realizing that? I mean, mostly with my friends, I've had a couple of friends that just said, there were just some people that were in the circle of the peripheral friends, and those people they didn't see, they didn't keep up with.

And then they were like, wow, I don't really miss that person. Not because they were a horrible person, but they just didn't really miss them. Or they realized the time that they gained by not having that person, they put towards something better, like their kids, or they weren't on the phone all day. It's talking in their closet, telling their kid to go away,

because that friend wasn't that intoxicating gossipy friend that you might have had or whatever? Exactly, yeah. What I offer in the book is it's almost journal-like where you can actually write down all your friends, we describe them. Are you the texting friend that will never really show up? Are you the long-term friend that once a year

we can have a meaningful conversation? But if we really start to define people's ability to be there for us and then what we need, then we don't waste our energy being sad with these expectations that are never met. So, what, because I just saw something on TikTok, where it was like, where it was, you know, a thing kind of evaluating the friend too. Like, are you the only one that reaches out? When was the last person person time someone reached out?

And sometimes it's just kind of hard to accept that you're like, I guess this person doesn't really wanna hang. And like, you have to be like, and you kinda gotta go through your texts and be like, okay, I was the last person that always initiated it, or I was the last person that tried to make plans the last four times, and catch a clue, bitch.

Like, there are times where you're like, catch a clue about your own self. Like, they're just not that into you. You know that book about the guy? Remember the movie, he's not that into you. Well, sometimes your friends just aren't that into you. Or they're, in being in Hollywood, or podcasting, whatever,

you are the person that's useful because they come on Juicy Scoop. And that has tapped out for them. And it is no longer that necessary. And I thought we were really friends. I had a higher value of the connection and the friendship. And then I realized, oh no, it was just to come on the show. And at first I was really devastated because it like cracked open this year. But now I'm just so grateful that I'm not wasting

another year or two with people that were truly never really my friend. I might have even been their enemy and I didn't know it. Who you surround yourself with shows who you are and your character, right? Yeah. I mean, I really, and as a psychologist, I struggle with it so much. But I had to say goodbye to people I really loved

because of who they were friends with. Yeah. And that was the boundary I had to set. Right. If you want to be in that, if you want a social climb or you want to be around somebody who isn't lifting me up when I'm not there, you don't get to be around me. Just still really bothers me that people just don't seem

to care. They don't. And I'm shocked. I mean, as a therapist, I probably see 10 or 15 people a week in therapy right now. I am shocked. We assume people think about us 90% of the day. No, they think about us 1%.

They don't have the capacity, they're consumed with their lives, they're assholes. Most people are very, very selfish and self-oriented. And it always shocks me, even in husband-wife dynamics that I see all the time. What's that book? Women are from Mars.

Yeah. It's so true. Or better for Mars, a little bit of Venus. Yeah. It's so true. People do not have the capacity to understand other people's thinking or communication. And then when I see it in practice, I'm like, whoa, you really don't give a fuck about that person and you really don't have any insight into what's going on.

Yes, I mean sometimes yes with my husband too. I'll be sometimes I'm just like there is no I know he doesn't think about me nearly as much as I'm thinking about him and how to make this better or this bothered me I just have to and I'm trying to tell myself because I'm like if I can just accept that then maybe I'll have to, and I'm trying to tell myself because I'm like, if I can just accept that, then maybe I'll have an easier day. Right, that's my problem too. Like I'm ride or die friendship. And when you can't meet me at that level,

I don't know what to do with you. Right. Like that's, and that's the boundary I set for myself. You're gonna be ride or die or you're out. Right. Because that's the life I wanna live. I wanna be able to 100% trust the people in my circle. Yeah.

And this is such a cutthroat industry. Yeah. That you really have to. I never really had experienced something like this in Hollywood. Really? And I never had really been a part of it where it was such a deliberate like planned

to like take me down and hurt my reputation, hurt my business, hurt my personal and professional relationships. He had all the bombs lined up like a dictator. And then when the one thing happened where I supported these two other women, that's when he pressed the buttons. And I figured that all out later, and then other people are like, oh, stop talking about it, move on, loser. And there's always other women that are like, move on.

And then you wonder why we're not further along. It's because we don't have each other's back. Or we do when it benefits us. When it doesn't benefit, it's very few people that step out on a limb for something that, it's always like when I'm like, you know, when a celebrity is like, and this charity is very dear to my heart because now I have this disease.

And I'm like, well, where were you before? Yes. And like, it's vapid. You know, it's so it's like, and when I chose a charity, I'm like, I was, it's for foster care. I'm like, I was never in foster care. I never adopted a foster care child, but I know this is really important

because I always thought about that. I'm always like, it's always someone's charity that's like their foundation. Right. You're kind of like, okay, is it really that amazing that you're doing or even like my sister has it or whatever, which is still nice, but still.

Right, right. No, it's- Like until it affects is still nice, but still. Right, right. No, it's- Like until it affects you, you don't care. Right, yeah. It drives me crazy. Right. It drives me crazy. I mean, that's part of that,

the reason I wrote this little book and I just strive to empower women to stand back and say, what the fuck, what do you want? What is really happening around you? And let's really have that moment of, this-uh, this doesn't work for me anymore. So in doing the book, is there some examples that you can kind of share of where someone kind of realized or?

Yeah, I mean, I share a few examples, but a lot of it is working with psychopaths, being manipulated, how to use that to understand when there are red flags around you. You've been so gaslit that you're not trusting your intuition and you're riding along in this relationship with someone That you need to step back and really reflect on that and like what are some of those or some examples or clues that you should be aware of for me, I think narcissism is such a huge issue in our society.

And the concept of triangulation was huge for me. And it's been huge to teach my clients. But that a narcissist will always have a triangle, right? I say he because it's usually a guy. But he'll never feel the power enough to take down the spouse or the other person. He'll always have a third power to make him bigger. And that might be a threat, that might be, I have photos of you doing something that you can't see,

or it might be, I have a person that saw you doing something. But it's always gonna be this third triangular entity, so that you feel smaller and you feel weaker. And then that's the gaslighting part, right? Then you're slowly like, well, I can't combat if he has something that I don't know about. What if I was drunk one night and I did something and you just get smaller and smaller and smaller.

And I want to move on, but thank God I do have people that are like Heather, you can talk about it as much as you want. Like how am I supposed to look back at like, when they came on my boat and we celebrated their birthday or they celebrated mine, How am I supposed to not look back and realize that they probably were talking shit about me on the way to the event? Right. They probably were. That's the, I mean, that's the intuition, right? Your God's

telling you. They probably were. But I don't want to believe it because reality sucks sometimes. But once you come to terms with that, man, it opens up real relationships and real connections. but I don't want to believe it because reality sucks sometimes. But once you come to terms with that, man, it opens up real relationships and real connections and really trust in it. You don't just think about it. Do you watch Housewives at all? Yes.

Okay. So Housewives is the ultimate of like, you know, we were growing up and you would talk behind your girlfriend's back on the phone. Yeah. Were you ever of the age, I think you're younger than I am, where they would do this trickery, then this is probably you're too young for this. So a lot of us had our own lines, okay? That was like a big deal if you could have your own line, whatever. I had my own line because

my parents used the main line for real estate. So my sister and I shared a line. Anyway, I never did this to someone, but I had it happen to me where they would call you and they would start talking shit up. You'd start talking shit about Jennifer or whatever. And there was a way you could do a three way call and then Jennifer would be listening, which is really what is housewives. They hear what you say in the confession or they see what you say at lunch and they see it months later. It really is. And now it's podcasting. Now I actually did an episode where like I heard what you said about me on your podcast. And that's why I said the real housewives of podcasting and podcasts were like, now everybody this, you

know, and eventually there'll probably be some AI chip that people could now think what you're actually saying as you see them now think what you're actually saying as you see them walk up and you're like, that skirt is awful. I would love that. I would not love that. I want my thoughts to be private, please. Already I share all the thoughts that come in my head,

but there's still some that I'm like, that we'll know and we'll know. But like, yeah, I think that is what is so, you are like selling your soul to the devil to be on one of those shows because or you're just accepting this is the new reality that you're going to know what everybody actually thinks about you. And sometimes I'm like, I don't want to know. Right? Like I had to stop looking at the hate groups and it was very tempting. And I finally one day just treated it like alcohol and I'm like, I will not look. And I'm like, haven't looked since December 24th.

Because it's really hard, you start to hate yourself. It's really hard and people are vicious and diabolical. Right. But what kind of person becomes a housewife? I mean, is it the part of the person that's acting or a genuine presentation of somebody that wants to be seen in that light. Well, I mean, you're the psychologist.

What do you think? What's the prototype? I think they're all pretty narcissists. I think they're all pretty A types. I think some people are better humans than others and have better intentions than others. I think some wanted to be actors and never pursued it. I think some hate their husband and secretly hate their husband and want the world to see what a dick he is.

So that eventually either he'll feel bad, which never happens. He normally just resents her for putting him in this position to be seen. And then when they get divorced, she has a paycheck and she has some fun and people treat her like a rock star at BravoCon and she can sell a line of leggings or whatever and kind of get something else cooking.

Do they make that much money though? I think it's more about the becoming leading to other things because they don't really make the real money until they're like season four or five if you can make it that far. So I think about Tamara and, you know, I've seen Tamara out at the bars and in areas in Orange County and she doesn't present the way she does on TV. Like there's so much acting involved and a desire to be portrayed in this certain way.

So do you think she's more low key? Yes, definitely. I mean, she's not on a slip and slide with her tits out at the bar in Laguna. I should just, she's very reserved. She's very performative. Yes. And, you know, we were close at one time

and she would tell me like, I'm a producer's dream. I am a company girl. Like I will do what it takes to make it happen. However, it works to an extent, you know, but I do think the audience is way more sophisticated now. And they don't really appreciate that type of craziness when let's do tequila shots and take up our tops

and we're like, we know you don't really wanna do that, but that's where all the drinking comes into play because these women aren't professional actors or comedians and they can't really bring it or be silly or they are nervous, so then they do over drink. And then people are like, oh, it's unattractive. Or then they become sober and people go well you're boring well Jesus what do you want from me? Oh yes like New York yeah Leah. Leah I mean she's got a backbone

but yeah she got more boring. Yes and she blamed everybody for you know not now she's like wanting to like to the braver or whatever saying that you encouraged me to go naked and throw the Tiki torches and. That was quite an episode. Yes, yeah, but it was more fun than when it was like. It was, like I don't, I mean there's science behind how we need really bad TV as women to calm our brains down.

Like we need to counteract it. Our husbands are different. Yes, but what are the husbands? Like that's why the husbands want what? The sports and stuff. The sports, like the simple things. Yeah. Because they keeps their mind at a lower level, but we need something more engaging and dramatic

to actually calm our minds. It's kind of like ADHD and the stimulant. I won't say which franchise, because I don't want to be mean and I'm no stranger to plastic surgery myself. But there was an episode of a show on and my now 18 year old son walked in and he goes, who are these people? He goes, they all look like the people in Whoville.

And my God, they really did. And they were fighting, so they were all like, they could all like, were lifting up their face and they all had like the same nose and the protruded lips and like the blonde hair and it was just, and I was like, yeah, but, you know, sometimes I like it. Sometimes it calms me down and sometimes it puts me to sleep and sometimes I'm like, I get a little tired of it, but.

I feel so peaceful when they are full out screaming, and sometimes when they're physically abusing each other. I'm so calm. Well, that's why when friendships do end in real life, I will say I'm not being paid by Bravo to have a lunch with you and move on, and I'm gonna invite you to my charity event now because we're all filming.

And, but I also think sometimes, do you think there's a possibility that housewives have become so much part of our life as women that watch it that in our own lives, we get overly dramatic? Cause I've had some moments where I'm like, I'm sorry, are the cameras here? Why the fuck are you acting like this? Exactly, yes. And I've seen this moments where I'm like, I'm sorry, are the cameras here? Why the fuck are you acting like this?

Exactly, yes. And I've seen this like working in prisons and all these bad places, when you work with inmates more, crimes become more okay to you. Being a bad person becomes more okay. You know, if you're inundated with Hollywood and the housewives, being dramatic becomes more okay.

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It's time to expect more from your skincare routine. Invest in the health of your skin with one skin. Tell me how you got started in your profession and how you did end up working with prisoners and is that something you wanted or was that the bottom of the barrel and tell me? No, I wanted to. I was the typical Orange County white girl,

totally naive. Everyone told me I couldn't do these grand things I wanted to do and so I just said fuck off, I'm gonna go to the LA County jail, I'm gonna find someone there who will train me. And so where did you go for undergraduate? Oh, undergraduate was Colorado and England. Okay.

And then I realized there's a five year wait list for a doctorate in England because of socialized. Education. Yeah, so I came back. So I went to Loma Linda in San Bernardino. And then I decided that I wanted to work with the most criminally insane, violent people in the entire world.

And I was gonna make it happen. And I got them to start the first program. And that was the craziest year of my life. I mean, the apples being thrown at my head, flaccid penises, P2. Well, I mean, were they, when you wanted to do that, was being that you're an attractive woman, was that something that they were like, please, this is straight out of like silence of the

lambs because Jodi Foster was young and attractive. Like I watched that last night. Oh, just to help me sleep. Um, no, they just, they were worried about me being naive, which I was, I caused a lot of problems. Like I, one day I passed out gum in all passed out gum in a group to a bunch of inmates, and they had to lock down the facility. Why?

Because you can use gum to block your lock of your cell. Oh. Then they could just all get out. Oh, they never told you that's a no-no. They never told me that. Okay. No, because I had no experience. I was so naive.

Right. So I learned the hard way. And then I became really fascinated with how dark and deep these people are. And what is your thought? What makes, I assume it's all different things. It could be that they were abused. Other times, like Matt Murphy said in the serial killers he's dealt with, oftentimes they're just very spoiled actually. They got everything they wanted as a kid. other times like Matt Murphy said in the serial killers he's dealt with oftentimes they're just very spoiled actually they got everything they wanted as a kid. What have you found? What have you found to be is there any similarity or? Yeah I think it depends on location

too so a lot of my work is in California Los Los Angeles. And I have found a lot that just grew up in really shitty environments. And we couldn't do anything about it. They learned to be gang members, and that's how they had to survive. Because that was their family, that's what all they knew. All they knew, right? We had to kill or be killed. But then there were individuals who at five years old were, you know, ripping apart animals to taste the hearts.

And so we have this pattern of childhood deviants. If you found your kid, because I always think about that, there's always like, do you remember the movie, The Good Son? It was in the Kali Culkin? Oh, yes. It's a very juicy one where this woman

takes on her nephew, I believe, because the two parents have passed and also his little sister, somebody had passed. And then she realizes that maybe this kid, the nephew, was responsible for these deaths and it's very, very well done. It's a juicy scoop history movie. But I think knowing what we know now, if you did see your child hurting your pet or whatever, what should you do at that moment, knowing that this is a pattern to go to a much worse place?

Well, I think you look at all the signs, right? You look at bedwetting, fire starting. Why bedwetting? Bedwetting is very common with night terrors when children are psychopathic. Oh. You look at all these different signs, you look at their relationships.

But I mean, right away you get them in to see like a pediatric or a child psychologist. Right. But I've had clients where you have to remove the knives from the home. I mean, you have to prepare that this little boy girl may be psychotic and may kill a sister. Is there a way, is there a way to save this kid? Like what, do you have success stories where they were showing all this, but they got the right therapy or the right medication and grew out of it. Sometimes, sometimes.

A lot of the times the parents suck and they don't follow through on the care that's recommended and then the kid gets stuck in the system. But some, you know, if we get like a wealthy family to do and they're really devoted to curbing this kid's behavior, yeah, they start to come out of it, they get interests and they usually still have this dark side as they grow up, but they know how to handle it, right?

Like Dexter style. Oh. Um, so have you ever, um, and so, and then what, I assume there's different kinds of serial killers that like,, I always remember that one movie, and I don't know if it was based on true story, but it was Sandra Bullock and Keeper Sutherland, I think, and they stop at a gas station and she sees this guy and he has like a cool bracelet on.

And it's like one of those big gas stations, like, you know, where there's restaurants and like everybody stops there on the way to like Vegas or whatever. And she goes, I really like your bracelet. And he goes, Oh, I make them and I have them. And she goes, Oh, cool. I think my boyfriend would like that. He and then he never sees her again. And he's screaming and you know, it's been four hours. And so he goes and the whole point of the story was it was this guy that just kind of was like,

I wonder if I could kidnap and kill someone. I just wanna see if I can try it. Like nothing had let up. Like there wasn't something prior to that. There wasn't just like, there's the serial killers that like it's the gateway, right? It's like they're peeping toms, then they maybe sexually assault,

then they maybe kill someone, but then eight years later. And then like, is there any? I think there's a fantasy that just starts to grow. Uh-huh. And especially in media now, we put them on the media. Like, people, they feel like if they're gonna go out, they're gonna go out big.

Right. But with serial killing specifically, they usually, I mean the ones I've always talked to, not always, but we're not friends. But they've been really interested in it for a long time, figuring it out, sorting out, and they found the kill the most stimulating part of their life. And then the second stimulation was hiding in the crowd

as people found the body. Oh. And then the third was was hiding in the crowd as people found the body. Oh. And then the third was now finding the next victim. So it was, you know, there are brain changes, there are emotional changes, but they get off on it. And they've got to keep building it and growing it. Like, are you familiar with the Long Island murderer guy, the gigolo giglio beach or something.

That guy who's the architect, who all the, they were sex workers that came to us. And it went on for years and they didn't really get the attention that they needed because the girls were sugar babies or sex workers or whatever. And now his wife obviously divorced, she, not obviously some maybe wouldn't, but she divorced him.

And they're being approached to like, be on shows or whatnot and people think that's wrong. And I'm like, well, I mean, I would like to know what their point of view is. Like, did they ever suspect? Did they ever think? Have you ever talked to family of these people? And how do you rectify that if you're the mother of someone

like this or something? I have to say, some of the mothers are the most difficult because they're so enmeshed with the children they believe them and they enable the behavior. Like, OK, he had child porn on his phone, but he never met the children. Oh, but he did send dick pics to them, but he never met them, so he's not that bad.

And these are the conversations I have with them, and I realize, okay, this is useless. Like, we have to bring this guy consequences. But the family can be difficult. Some family members just, they enable the behavior, they're totally ignorant of the behavior, or they ignore it. And it's until the police and bigger things get involved

that they have to say, okay, let me pay attention. We have all these, now we're going dark, should we? No. I was just thinking about mass shootings. Like, if you look back on all of the mass shootings, we could easily have told you they were gonna happen now that we look back. Well, the couple of the one boy,

they're on trial now, the parents. And saying they should have known and there was, but then I was reading some of the comments and they're like, well, shouldn't have the school known too then? Because he drew it, he drew disturbing things like on a math test. Right. So didn't the like on a math test. Right.

So didn't the school get the math test? And didn't he turn in the paper? Like and all the kids that were. But I mean, I think the parents are awful too, but like, yeah, I mean, everybody, you know, but so often you tell somebody and you tell them and that person just is like, they don't care or don't think you're thinking you're being dramatic and you're like, well that person just is like, they don't care or don't think you're being dramatic. And you're like, well, see something, say something, but that doesn't mean that the person you told gives a shit.

They're just someone that someone else hired. Like people are human and they're fallible and they make mistakes and yeah. Yeah. But there are clear signs leading up to these behaviors that I wish people would pay attention to. I'm in this threat management group.

It's a national threat management group. And I'd say like 95% of threats are stopped before they happen or they make the news. But everyone does a really good job, CIA, FBI, at stopping it. But the ones that actually get to the point of mass shooting or something that makes the media, we still had all those signs. It was the failure of the government. It was the failure of people to actually stop it before it happened.

Yeah. Like, you know, the kid getting all the weapons and dressing in camo and the trench coat with a briefcase at school. Yeah, yeah. That's different than another child. Wait, let's go back to something a little bit lighter. Okay, so let's go back to,

I think it's really interesting, like with going back to the friend breakup thing. Why are women so judgmental of like a female friendship breaking up and like you should get back together, you've been friends for a long time. Yet if you get divorced, someone that you stood in front of a church or whatever

and made a legal commitment to stay with forever and had three kids with, if you wanna leave that person, they're like, kick him to the curb, girl! You know, and like. Yeah. Why do you think that is? Why are we like that?

I think it because it makes us uncomfortable. We don't wanna have to shift our dynamics or pick a side or develop a different friend group. It makes us so uncomfortable to have to navigate people that don't like each other. Right. And I just personally don't give a shit. I won't be around you if I don't like who you're around.

That was a good moment when I came to that conclusion. I felt freed. Could you kind of explain without naming names, what happened? It's happened a few times. But just feeling like you were saying, if I don't reach out, I don't hear back. And I started to feel with like certain friend groups, if I don't initiate the social event or if I don't initiate the texting or the group texting, it's crickets.

And then I thought, well, if I pull back, then, you know, F you all, let's see if you're actually going to reach out and no one did or one or two people would. And that was my, I was clear. I was like, okay, I'm done. And then again, maybe I'm just more of an anxious person. A few months down the line, I would hear from someone and I would be like, no, this is just not good enough for me. Like again, like ride or die.

I want it to be fast and hard. But sometimes I think, Like again like ride or die. I want it to be fast and hard. But sometimes I think, like I saw this girl on TikTok and I've talked about it before. And I think her name might be a French. She created the expression fringe mom and she goes I'm a fringe mom and meaning I'm just not in with the group of moms that plan all the stuff and go to mom's night out and whatever. But meanwhile, I'm like, well, it's not helping that you're doing a tick talk about it. Like if you're standing on the sidewise of the soccer game and you're like, well guys, this is where I'm sitting by myself. Oh guys, this is where I'm sitting by myself where all these moms are having fun and I'm left here

and I'm like, well now I wouldn't wanna fuck with you either because I don't wanna be part of your, you know, video that gets 30,000 views. I don't want someone to figure out. And so sometimes with that, I'm like, look, these moms are really busy too. And you, if you weren't on the initial hookup text on September 8th, when your kid was in kindergarten,

and now your kid's in fifth grade, at the same school, you may never ever really be part of it. They might not be rude to you, but you're not part of the group. Right, especially if it's a group that grew up there. Right, right. Or even just started it, like maybe you worked and now you're not working,

which was kind of my situation. Like when I tried to get back into the school thing after like my TV show, Chelsea Lytley ended, I had, I was gotten kind of real like chip on my shoulder about it. I'm like, what, these women don't owe me shit. They don't owe me, like let's just give the stay at home mom that did everything at the school.

Let's give them some props. It's not their job, along with running the classroom and doing everything else to be like, you know what? You know, the attorney that's never here is here. So let me make sure that we invite her to dinner. Because they're a little resentful that you get to have this fun life. So I think that's off a big thing with women too.

Because there's the stay at home moms that do a lot for the school and they have a chip on the shoulder. And then the working mom has a chip on her shoulder that she has to go out and work. And that she can't go to breakfast with you after. Yeah. Because she would like to do that.

And then the working, the stay at home mom is like, well, I would really like to go get my hair and makeup done and be on a talk show. So you can fuck off. Like I just think it's kind of, and sometimes you can be friends. I have a variety of friends from the school that I've been able to,

but I finally just said, you know what? This just like wasn't my moment in life. It's too much work. It just, sometimes you just can't have it all. Sometimes you cannot have it all. You can have it, some people can have it most, having it most. But that's what I-

But maybe not all. I feel like that's amazing to say, like to realize it and then act it out. Like to stop fighting against the obvious, especially with school moms, because it's true the dynamic is gruesome. Yeah, like my friend always said, there was this Irish priest that had this expression

and she would say it to me, Yeah, like my friend always said, there was this Irish priest that had this expression and she would say it to me, she'd be like, nobody's looking at you, nobody's thinking about you. Like, and you kind of have to think like, nobody's thinking about you. Nobody woke up and was like, you know what? When I go to the fifth grade poet thing, I'm gonna snub this mom.

I highly, maybe, maybe some bitches, yeah. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I'm not saying you're delusional, but also like, you might be able to get through these times and be like, you know what, it's not about the moms and stuff, but it is with Facebook, it is hurtful sometimes, because we do see that a birthday happened.

Right. I mean, I've had those moments where I'm like, fuck you, like, you you know my kid doesn't, you know, isn't super popular and you had this party and thank God my kid can't see it, but I saw it, you know? And now that my kid, my youngest is 18, I am just so happy. And when I look back, no, I thought the experience would be better. I thought

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on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com slash juicy to get free shipping and 365 day returns quince.com slash juicy. Yeah, these are lessons I need to learn because she's seven. I mean, I wasn't and I don't know what, how much I could have done differently. I finally just kind of accepted.

Like I actually was happy when COVID happened because I can say this now and I don't care cause my kid is doing great. But at the end of eighth grade, it was a lot of politics and a lot of like, and there was like a friend, the one friend I had, like, we weren't really friends anymore and the school year was coming and there was gonna be all these eighth grade things to do.

And I was like, I immediately said, can I go on the bus? Can I be a mom on the bus to go to Disneyland? And they're like, no. Those moms were already picked or whatever. Yes, how do they get picked? Well, the reason I wanted to do it is because I was afraid he might not have a friend to sit on the bus with.

But if the mom was there, no one would say anything, right? I'd just sit with my son. And I was like, oh my God. I was so worried about it and I remember I said, people are not going to like this. I said, God, I wish something would happen that would just cancel all this end of the eighth grade bullshit. 100%. I think I said it around March 10th. And March 20th, 2020. Not that it brought on COVID. The world shut down.

But I'm not sad about it. Hey, if you put it in the universe. He was like, oh, I never got to go to Disneyland and did it. But I had so much anxiety about the parties, the all this. It's like, he was okay with it. I just wasn't. And I mean, it's really hard. Like, and so when I hear somebody like my daughter

got bullied or like there was this other thing where this mom that was very, that I know that was very like involved. And all of a sudden her daughter was just on the outs, on the outs. And she went to the principal and she was like, I don't know what to do. And the principal said, pull her out,

put her somewhere, put her somewhere else. She's never, she's, she's, school's too small. She, it's too painful. She can go somewhere else and reinvent herself. And I thought that was like the greatest advice ever because I'm like, you know? Yeah, you stood up for her. Yeah.

Well, I mean, the principle did. The principle did. She lost a paying customer. She lost a mom that did a lot. But she was like, I know how this dynamic works and she's not gonna ingratiate herself again. Whatever she did, being a dork or whatever, it just like you gotta start over with these people.

You're not gonna win them over. And I think that as an adult, you have to tell yourself that too. Yeah. I think that's great. I'm not gonna win them over. I'm not going to win them over. I'm never going to win them over. They're never going to see the person that this person sees.

So let me just hang out with this person who thinks I'm great. Yeah. And these people think I'm a piece of shit or whatever, or these people think I'm a dork. Or they're jealous and envious. Yeah, I think that is like. And so, and I also think homeschooling. I used to be the person that made fun of homeschooling moms. And now I'm like, fucking, I think that is like, and so, and I also think homeschooling, I used to be the person that made fun

of homeschooling moms, and now I'm like, fucking, I hear ya girl. Like, who cares? Because by the time they get to college, people are nice. Yeah. People are mature, and they're nice, and then people, oh, that'll make them weird,

they won't know how to be social. I mean, the kids don't know how to be social now. They're all at home on their phones anyway. So why do they have to see it in their face and eat lunch alone every day? If they can eat lunch with you or create your own little dynamic in your neighborhood or where you know my kid is safe.

I mean, I do feel like education can be your own experience now between AI and homeschooling and computers and whatever you want as a parent, I think you can take that and do what's right and just hope that you don't know that you're making the right decision. You'll never, you never will, you know?

I don't, yeah, I don't know. But a lot of people say, and this was. You know? I don't, yeah, I don't know. But a lot of people say, and this was not the case when I grew up, and I also notice it somewhat culturally too. No sleepovers. Oh yes, on my Instagram, that's the most common thing. I've ever thought of that, ever.

We, our whole life was sleeping over. Like if I didn't have plans, like with a sleeping bag on Friday, leaving it by the side of the school so that I could go home with my friend, I was like, I have no plans this week and I'd get so depressed. I was like in the seventh grade. Yeah. And when did that like become such a no-no just because assaults and stuff would happen?

And then so now people are like, it's not worth it. I mean, I don't think it's necessary. Why do you need to sleep over? I do agree. Why do you need to sleep over? The kids stay up all night, they wake up, then the mean dad comes down. And like, there was a lot of that.

I remember being like, they put, I went to a public school girls party. I went to private and they just, again, since I was eight, there is something about me to a certain type of personality. I irritate the shit out of them. They are like, she thinks she's all that, I hate her, okay. Because you're confident?

And people are so insecure? It has existed since I was like eight. I think it says so much more about other people than you. They can't, they're intimidated. No, I know, but I think there's a certain type of person that just cannot get into the Heather McDonald vibe. And I wish I would have realized it earlier, you know? Like, but there's something about me, yeah, the confidence,

the way I look, that I think, that I'm not great looking, but I'm happy with the way I look, that really pisses off people. It's the same way that people get mad when, you know, curvier people have great confidence, why people come after Lizzo for no reason, things like that. Well, now there's a reason

because she was kind of mean to some people, but whatever. But the perfect example of like how men would get really angry about that. And you're like, why do you care? Like who cares? And so that people will like that hate me will like write like, you know, you have a bump on your nose or whatever. And I'm like, okay, first of all, yeah, I'm a comedian. I was ever trying to be a model,

but even if I was trying to be a model, who cares? Like, it's just kind of like this, but no, it's because you're putting yourself out there and you're actually succeeding at putting yourself out there. And that irritates me because you're not that great and you shouldn't be so confident. You actually should hate yourself because I hate myself. Exactly, it's the projection. Yeah. Yeah. People are so insecure and you're so quick-witted

and you can think so quickly, you're so smart. That's so, it's super intimidating to people. But I mean, the truth is, I mean, I'm insecure too. But verbally. Yeah. But I mean, I think that's also what kind of makes people surprised is that they're like, I can't believe that would bother you. Like you're a comedian. And I'm like, but it does, you know, it does because I'm like, I liked you and you didn't like me and I never knew, you know, like it's just kind of like weird.

It's like that Friends episode where Rachel says, or Ross says, why do you care? And Rachel says, because they're people. Yeah. Right? Because we care. Yeah. We care what people think of us.

It's the hardest part. Yeah. So getting back to the sleepovers. So now that's more of a thing, right? But it just shouldn't happen? I think it's like 60% of CPS cases right now are from sleepovers and men in the home. So that's why, and I don't know if that's just more

on the media or if it's happening more and being reported more, but yeah, there's more. Well, you know what, it's just an easy thing to avoid. Yes. So why not? You know, it's like, in my day, you used to be able to wait outside of the school for your mom to pick you up. And then, and she showed up.

And then girls were kidnapped. No, and then they said, okay, from now on, nobody waits outside. Then, okay, from now on, now every school has a security guard. You know, and now people have cell phones and stuff, but I mean, there was a time where we didn't have a cell phone and you said,

okay, I'll see you there at three. And then your mom who's a working mom has something to do. And now she's there and it's 415 and you've been sitting by yourself. And then you're a girl and you don't wanna be a burden. So then someone would be like, oh, can I give you a ride? No, it's okay, my mom's coming.

That's what happened like in the eighties. And that's why, and thank God we don't. So I mean, I think you like learn from everything. So what that we had sleepovers? You don't have to sleep over. If there's, why even risk it? Who cares? What's so fun about sleeping over?

Just pick them up at eight or nine at night. Let them have dinner, watch a movie. Oh yeah, and you don't want my kid sleeping over. She sleepwalks. I mean, you can even enjoy your evening. You'd have to like find her. When did that start? That's interesting.

Her whole life. She'll just sleepwalk and walk around. And when they're sleepwalking, their eyes are open. Oh, fully open, but she's not awake. So I just silently turn her around and walk her back to bed. Doesn't that scary that she could go out? So you have to, obviously you should lock the doors anyway, but do you like have a top lock and stuff?

Oh, top lock, alarm system, ring cameras. But your two-year-old doesn't do that. No. And when did the seven-year-old start? When she could get out of the, when she was in a big girl bed and could go out. And is there anything to stop that? I think they age out of it a lot.

But what, we moved houses when there's a big life shift, it happens more, and then it kind of calms down. Or when she's overly tired, it happens more. Now you said you, at one time, worked with your husband. Yes. How did you meet? Yeah. We met in our doctorate program, and then we

worked at these prisons and jails together. So he did the same work as you? He did. He did it a lot more. So he coached me and said, you know, stop doing these things. People are going to attack you. You're making yourself vulnerable.

Like what? We'll show you the things. Like, you know, if there's an elevator, you would choose that rather than walking in a stairwell. Or if, you know, don't naively walk into a room of 40 felons and just say, hey guys, ready for group? Like just my bubbly, normal Orange County personality,

I had to really subdue it because my husband is trained in martial arts and had testified and worked in Chicago and just the horrible areas of Chicago and with prostitutes and he would have to navigate all that. Well, I mean, so in doing it, how long did you do it and what did you like about it? Did you actually ever make real headway with someone

or help anybody? Not really, no. No. Wait. Not inside the walls, maybe outside. Maybe I like the honesty, I like the honesty, but yeah. You know, I, probably 10 years, and in about that amount of time,

I think I had one guy get discharged and not come back. And this, I mean, one facility I worked at had 1200 inmates and 2000 staff members. So we're talking large numbers, and they are just, you know, they get released, they come back. Or staff than inmates. Yeah, because they weren't funded for actual police.

So it was kind of custody officers without weapons that would be in the facility. So because there's a psych ward thing. Yeah, so when something would go down, there was violence every single day, we'd have alarms on our hips. And I frequently, like every day would pop my alarm and there'd be lights on the ceiling

and everyone would come running. But if you were the first one there, you had to like go hands on. So were you ever physically attacked? Oh, yeah. And that's one thing my husband always says. Like, how? Don't run so fast.

I'd say that the first time I was kind of pushed against a wall and had my boobs grabbed. And I could tell he was coming in to do more. And then I popped my alarm and staff were close enough to pull him off. That was pretty scary. And then the next time was, one of the psychiatrists was being assaulted

by someone brutally assaulted. We say a lot in our field, like when there's an individual with schizophrenia and they are in a psychotic aggression, they look like the road runner. They move so fast when they are throwing punches. So you walk up to that and you're like, what am I supposed to do?

But I was like, oh, fuck it, I gotta go. So I'm gonna step into this and try to get this guy off my friend, this elderly psychiatrist. And I'm so glad that a bunch of inmates at that time picked me up and threw me against a wall. And I thought, okay, like now I'm just gonna die, right? They went in and actually saved the psychiatrist. Oh, wow.

So I wasn't attacked, but the whole situation was so shocking. I mean, I just ruminated about that for weeks. When did you leave? I left when I was pregnant. I was gonna say, I can't imagine going when you're pregnant. I had this say, I can't imagine going when you're pregnant. I had this kind of OG game member come up to me in the visitation room and he said,

I gotta tell you because you're one of my favorite staff members, you know, I helped him get a little extra canteen here or there, that they're taking bets on who can kick your belly first. And I thought, okay, I'm done. So, because you were already showing? I was showing, yeah. I don't know if I was showing because you were already showing? I was showing, yeah. I don't know if I was showing because I did IVF

and I was so bloated, but I think they knew, they watched you like a hawk that I was trying to get pregnant. Right, so then that was the last time I was inside and then I went to work with veterans. Cause it was- And then what was that like? At least they have jobs.

Yeah, but what's that like with the veterans? Really good stories. Really good stories, major PTSD though. I can imagine. The trauma was, I've never seen it before. And just hearing the top secret stories that America gets our men into is pretty incredible. And yeah, like my dad was a Marine in World War II,

so he was only 17 to 20 fighting Japan. That's crazy. And when he, we would always be like, you know, he would always just tell funny stories. Like, oh, my friend got shot in the butt, or my friend used his other friend's purple heart to get a job, whatever, something like that. And he's like stories, and then at the, you know, how they on the boat back from Japan

to San Diego, they only had one movie. So they watched it over again and they'd like reenact it and just keep doing like just fun stuff like that. But so I never heard anything. And if I said, did you ever kill somebody? He'd be like, Oh, stop it. You don't know to ever tell me anything. So then he had a, like a stroke or something or a minor stroke and he was kind of going in and out of it.

And he just like looked at me and he like told me the story of how he killed two guys. And then afterwards I said, you know, you told me about the two guys and I repeated it. And he was like, no, I didn't say that. And I thought, my God, I can't believe my dad is like 88 and has been carrying this burden as a Catholic moral man that he killed these two men in combat. Yeah, that were probably his age or close to it or around it and what that would do.

And I thought about all the times, you know, with his couldn't control his temper and his mental issues and stuff, which he had even though he's a successful man and husband and good dad, but yelled a lot and shit, like, you know, lost his temper and things like that. And I'm like, because he never let it out. And they never, and especially then they didn't have any therapy.

They were like, here's a, you know, here's your GA bill, go now, then he could go to college and he went to college and then he got a job and that was that, like moving on. And I mean, I just can't imagine, you're like telling these kids that this is what they have to do. Exactly. I work with police and firemen a lot, and every time they go to these horrifying calls,

they just get back in the truck and start joking around. You know, they go back to the station, they start cooking, they wait for the next call, they never actually like spend a moment saying that was really serious. Like we need to honor that we just saw death or we need to honor what happened. And how can they?

Because that's their job. It's like, I know when I see stuff like that and I'm like, my job is like watching a housewife thing and doing an impression or going on the road and making people laugh. I just, and I- But we need that, right road and making people laugh, I just, but we need that, right? Well, of course, I mean, we need these jobs and we need these people that are good.

And their wives. But I mean, and I so respected it. And I feel bad, I want to apologize because this girl wrote me and I made a light of, kind of made a light of something of just, Taylor Swift had a stalker and they caught the stalker and he was like loitering in front of her place and I'm like, but what about all the women that have been loitering and-

And the police don't care. This girl wrote me and she said, that's not true the police, you know, about the police and I said, you're right. I said, oh, the police don't care. That's not what I meant to say. I want to correct it. I wanted to say the laws in LA protect that loitering, someone who unfortunately is unhoused. There's nothing that says that they can't lay in front of your property or whatever.

That's what I was saying. And therefore, the police cannot enforce those kind of things now until we get a better DA and things like that. So I wanted to say that. I felt badly because I have a tremendous respect for military law enforcement, firefighter, all that. Because we do need it so badly

and I can't believe they have to do this every day of their lives. Like it's so hard. And putting people before themselves, you know? That's the thing, they're people too, right? I mean, if they know they're getting called out to Taylor Swift, they're gonna drive faster. Yeah. Like there's a real, right. I mean, if they know they're getting called out to Taylor Swift, they're gonna drive faster. Yeah.

Like there's a real, Right, there's an interest. Yeah, there's a little more of an interest. Just like when like a DA may go after a high profile case more so, or be harder on somebody that is in Hollywood or go lighter on someone, whatever. You know, if it's what they think might versus someone that's like,

eh, that case isn't that interesting. Cause that's the only thing that they choose not to take it. Then they choose not to take it. Right. You know, so wrapping up, like I want to ask a couple more things about how, I wanna ask a couple more things about how, what can you do if you're with someone that has narcissistic behaviors? Maybe they don't have all, what is it?

Is it like the nine signs or the 11 signs? Oh yeah, I mean there's a bunch. Yeah, there's a lot of signs. There's a lot of signs. And I think there's some people that might just have some. Yeah. Right, so then you're not and we throw the word around so much. Right. So it's like what if you're like, look,

I'm married to this person or whatever. I work with this person and I've noticed these things. What is some advice you can give? Because it always just seems like when I see all this stuff, it's like you got to get out, you know, and you read the comments, I left my NARC, and now I'm so happy. What about the people that are like, it's bad, but it's not so bad? And I would like to try to navigate this personality disorder that I have to deal with,

whether it's the father of your kids, or, you know, what is your advice? I don't think it's hopeless. You know, I really see narcissism as, you know, you've got wounded people, like if we picture an egg shell, and when they're feeling strong, they're at the top of the egg shell. If that egg shell cracks because somebody hurts

their feelings, that narcissistic wound makes them fall into the egg and it's just hot lava. They can't do it. They'll do anything to prevent falling into that lava. So it means they're gonna hurt you, they're gonna grab onto you, they're gonna manipulate you, they're gonna try to impress upon everyone.

And so if you start working with somebody- Impress upon everyone that you're the fault. That you're the fault, that they're strong, that they're okay. Okay. You know, they're gonna project out all the bad stuff on everyone else. But if we start to build them up and build their confidence and build

a layer over the lava that they're not horrible people, that they can start to have some identity, then their fall from grace won't be as significant. And then they can be more present in the relationship and they won't attack or hurt because narcissists can go real low. If we can build that confidence in them, we can start to make that relationship heal. And I've seen both happen. So you have some of these being awful to you and then you have to blow them up and say you're great?

Yes, yes. I think. Oh my God, that's hard. That seems annoying. 100%. But you're right, that's hard. Yeah. That seems annoying. 100%. But you're right, that's probably the trick. You got to play poker. Yeah.

You got to play the game if you have the end goal of... What about the gray rocking? The gray rocking. Explain what the gray rocking is. I find that gray rocking just pisses people off. Okay. You know, it's... Because I was kind of wondering about that too.

I do think it works an extent where if you're dealing with someone who just kind of likes to fight and They're like coming in and they're like da-da-da, and you're like all right. Okay, won't happen again Da-da-da like I do think there's some people that it does work for because you are like exhausted Yes, and you're just like I Why am I defending myself so So, but I do, but, so how do you think it also kind of makes it worse if that's what you're saying? I think if you're drastically changing

how you relate to the person, like if it's your husband, all of a sudden you just go mute. Yeah. He's gonna be like, well, I'm gonna try harder to get something out of you. Oh, okay. And it can just make things blow up more.

But I mean, if you're going to gray rock maybe, and that's just acting like a gray rock, like a no personality, I would start slow and subtle and kind of build that. You don't want them to think that you're having a stroke or something. We need to look at the end goal and how we're going to move the relationship in that way. But if it's like someone at work or a school mom that's just friggin annoying,

Greywalk right away all the time. It's perfect. I love that trend. I think it's a great topic. And then, what about the narcissistic thing? And fortunately, I have not experienced anybody like this. So thank God for this, because this would really bug me out. But where they're like, my narc, you know, will ruin any big event. The narc that ruins Christmas Thanksgiving, your birthday, some big thing that you're excited for. And they do it in a covert way where you don't really

realize it until like you put it all together and then you look at the last 10 things, giving's and you're like, what? What are you supposed to do about that? Run. That one you can't fix. Run. I think if you have a,

there's a real longstanding relationship with a lot of abuse and resentment. I mean, there's things in relationships you can't come back from. Yeah. Yeah, and how much of your life do you want to spend building someone up and fixing them rather than living your life?

I definitely think that's happened with adult sibling relationships or even if you have a narcissistic parent or grandparent, whatever. And, you know, placating that person for all the years. Okay, we'll go to your house, we'll pack up the kids, we'll go to your house, and then, oh, nobody wanted me anyway, you know,

like that type of stuff. And you're like, oh, jeez. And then now I feel like people are like, no, like, this is my family now. And I am not going to play your bullshit game. And I mean, I shared about my adult sibling situations that I couldn't believe when I first shared it the amount of emails I got that were like,

thank you for allowing me to be like, no more. And I just think there's this like blood is thicker than water and dead water and it's like, okay, we were siblings. We grew up in the same home, we had the same parents. Sometimes you can't get free of that person until the parents die. Right.

Because then you're like, well now there's nothing that ties us together. And there isn't a parent that's like, well, we would, you know, mom wants us to be together and then, but it's like a weird jealousy or whatever. And sometimes I think the jealousy between kids that then bleed into adulthood, I do think the parent could be responsible.

Because why? Yeah. I'm very lucky. Like, I'm like, my kids are not jealous of each other. But why did I grow up in a home where the kids were jealous of each other? Yeah. Oh, and I did too. Because my parents were jealous of each other.

The mom and dad were. Yeah. Oh. You know, I think we model these behaviors significantly. Oh. Definitely. I mean, I had a very, I do have no offense, Dad. I love you. A very narcissistic attorney father. Uh-huh.

I think my dad definitely was narcissistic now. Yeah. It's hard to tell though with being a veteran. Right. I mean, he's also such a badass too, so. A badass, but also like kind of bragged about it. Like, you know, I can say it cause he's passed too, but like, you know, I just remember,

I had to write the essay for college and it was like, who do you most admire? And he basically just wrote it for me cause it was him. Did you get in? Yeah. Yeah, okay. I got in, but it was just so like, you know, combat marine and this football player had four letters in high school and held three jobs and drove a nice truck and, you know, all this kind of, and it was amazing.

And they were amazing individuals, you know? But then the ego was like so fragile. Yes. Like, I just remember one time my sister graduated or did something, and when she graduated, we were all waiting there and we had flowers for her and stuff. And she went hugged everybody, hugged everybody, you know, all her friends. She said, we're going to see her friends again, you know?

And we were just waiting behind it. And my dad was so pissed that she didn't come directly to us first and hugged. So she was like six years older than I am. So then after that, any play, anything I ever had, I would be on stage, I mean, dad had stark white hair and I'd be like, okay, he's right there. And from the moment I'd get off stage, whether, even as an adult doing stand-up,

from the, I would, well, I mean, eventually I got to a place where they could meet me backstage. But like, before that, like just at the, I would be like, it doesn't matter if fucking, you know, Jay Leno wanted to stop and talk to me. I'd be like, dad! Because it's like he needed to have that. And it's kind of ridiculous. And then you feel so guilty if you don't fulfill it.

Like it was so much. Like just to be making sure that like his ego was intact and it was exhausting. You know the first celebrity I met was Jay Leno. He's so nice. He was 17, he called me up on stage at his show and we took pictures. Wait, why?

I don't know, I was with two very pretty girls. Probably just that, yeah. Yeah. It's a good picture though. Yeah, very pretty. He was super, always very, very nice and I was on his show and stuff, but I'm just saying like before that,

like yeah, it is interesting. And I do think I had Dr. Drew say that like, most pilots have a lot of narcissistic traits because some of them can be really great. They need to feel like they're the smartest one in the room. They're fucking driving the plane. Like we do want that, we do want a lot of doctors and lawyers. I think there can be some really positive traits.

And I do think there's like a saturation of like throwing the word around. Along with gaslighting, those two words I think are overused. We sensationalize it. Yeah. Yeah, but there's real. And I still think gaslighting is confusing. I find are overused. Yeah, we sensationalize it. Yeah. Yeah, but there's real. And I still think gaslighting is confusing. I find it confusing too.

When I, I like to explain like, if you think your husband's having an affair and you have actual physical evidence, like underwear, that's not yours, in your hand, and he says no, it was probably yours and convinces you it's yours. Like that's the epitome of gaslighting. You don't even trust physical evidence anymore

that they've taken your intuition away to that degree. So then if you look at it subtly, there's all that. They can come. Yeah, so then I do think that it's, that that is what it's supposed to be. I don't think it's supposed to be like, you know, you don't think I'm capable of this. That's crazy.

Yes, I do. That's not gaslighting, right? No, gaslighting. That's where I feel like it's been like, anytime you say something and someone goes, you're being crazy, then you're like, stop gaslighting me. It's like, well, maybe someone really does think that, you know, what you're saying doesn't make any sense because they truly don't feel that way.

Like, yeah. It's an emotional manipulation. I mean, it's a serious thing, but we definitely, it's sexy to say right now. It's super sexy to say gaslighting and narcissism and we're thrown around diagnoses every day because I don't know, it's just where we are. It's in the media.

With your book about your situation with friends, do you think there is hope of, you know, the expression, you know, friends are part of your life for, you know, a reason to season or a lifetime type of a thing and kind of figuring out this was a really good friend. Do you think there's a time where you can put a pin in a friendship and go back to a friendship? Or do you think no? No, I mean, I think it would be rare.

Uh-huh. Rare. To be honest, yeah. Yeah, but I think it's possible. Like, there's some people I really adore, but I don't adore the people that they are around. Okay. And they're going to be around those people through school because of aged kids or jobs or whatever.

And so I'm definitely in my mind thinking, pin right here and reach out when life transitions. But it's rare. Most people just, if they're toxic, they're out. They don't fit life, they're out. If the world brings us back together. I had a situation with a friend and we had like, If they're toxic, they're out. They don't fit life, they're out. If the world brings us back together. I had a situation with a friend and we had like,

just one of those things and it was not a big deal and then so much time passed. And then it kind of got weird and, but we'd still occasionally text like, oh, congrats on this or something like that. And then when like all this shit happened when social media people were coming after me, I found out that she was participatory in it online and agreeing, oh, I'm so glad that you've exposed this part of her. And I was like, I can't believe that she's using

her own name and doing this and I knew it. And then I see her out at something and I really wanted to be like, I can't believe, you know, but I'm like, wait, it's been like three and a half years and I'm just gonna be kind of fake because I don't want her now going back and saying, oh, getting in the car, oh, I ran into Heather and she fucking one psycho on me and said,

even if I was in the right. So I was just like, oh, hey, da, da, da, da, da. But then the other day my friend said, well, you know, oh, remember we were at this place with that girl. Would you, you know, if you ever want me to facilitate, you know, because I'm kind of, and I was sort of sad for a moment. I remembered like a fun moment we had. But then I'm like, she danced on my grave. Yeah, she danced on my

grave. She was happy that I was suffering and she contributed to it. I go, she could have picked up the phone and been like, holy shit, I'm kind of loving this, but not, but she showed that she was loving it. And so therefore I feel like once you know that, it's like this one thing to be, when someone really goes, look, we're not hanging, but I do wish you're the best.

And some people lie about that, but some people really do. Some people are like, oh my God, I'm glad, I'm glad you got that job, I'm glad I'm glad. I'm glad you got that job. I'm glad you got married. I'm glad you got pregnant. And they really are glad. And then there's people that are like,

they aren't glad when things go good, but they are glad when things go bad. And it's hard to prove. And then when you have the proof, you're like, there's no way you can go back then. Yeah, oh yeah. And in my book, if you disrespect go back then. Yeah. Oh yeah. And in my book, if you disrespect me, you're done.

There's no coming back from disrespect. Yeah. I mean, that's not my book, book of life. Book of life, yeah. Like I recently, not recently, over the past couple of years lost 120 pounds. Oh wow, congratulations. Shit done, yeah.

You know, one time I said that to a girl, the, my big fat, what's her name? She has a show in TLC. She, my big fat life or whatever, it's like. I know, making me too much trauma. No, it's been on a show in TLC forever. Oh, okay. She's a very big personality, very funny girl, whatever.

And we're doing it on Zoom and she's like, and then I, you know I lost 50 pounds, whatever, and I go, oh, congratulations. She goes, actually, that's really offensive. Why? Because I guess I shouldn't have said that. Like, I was like, oh, she's like, because weight doesn't matter.

Okay, all right. So now I just realized I congratulated you. Oh, fuck yeah. But it's okay. It's okay. But I don't know, like maybe I'm not supposed to say that sometimes. She's the only person that's ever called me on it, but whatever. I mean, congratulations for being healthy and feeling happy and living a longer life.

Trying to say that it doesn't matter. I don't know who goes. Go on. So you lost the way, congrats. I am going to say congrats because you are happy about it. Okay. Yeah, I appreciate it. Thank you.

I'd rather not be 120 pounds more. I wouldn't fit in the chair. Yeah. But I lost friends as I got healthier. And that's juicy. What do you think? Because that's happening with Osempic. Yes, they, I think there was envy.

Like people were along for the ride because I was kind of the wounded one that could carry with me or carry with them. But as I got healthier, people, I started to get more attention. I started to get invited to things more. I kind of, I don't know if we call it popularity at this age, but things shifted in friend dynamics.

And then I think- But also isn't that sad that just because somebody is a smaller dress size, that they might go up in the social stratosphere. But it's true. It's so true. And then it's true that then people are like, wait, I liked you when you were my fat funny friend,

not when you were my pretty funny friend or my thin funny friend. Yes, because now you are hurting my confidence because now you're coming at me with too much. I said that too and there's this one, there's, you know, when people, I haven't had someone go, I don't like the osempic. And I'm like, why, you've been skinny your whole life.

What do you care? You don't need it. Exactly. And she goes, because it's the one thing, and she was like joking, but I was like, this is exactly what I was talking about. She's like, it's the one thing that I was, like joking, but I was like, this is exactly what I'm talking about. She's like, it's the one thing that I had over other people is that I never struggled with food and with weight gain. And so I'm like, but that is why people are,

that is why people are like, you cheated and did it. And I'm like, who cares? It's a miracle thing. Hopefully it doesn't backfire. Sure, a couple of people it doesn't agree with like anything else, but for the most part, it seems to be making people lose the weight that they've wanted to easily.

And so I'm like, as someone who was lucky enough, sure I've gained a little weight here or there, but like I'm pretty lucky in that I don't struggle like other people have throughout life. I've never had a needing disorder and I, you know, so I'm like, but it's, but that's what it is. It's that someone, someone like you who's really pretty. Thank you. Who then loses some weight is pretty and now their size. And the friend that kind of probably had like not a cute face, but was always thin, was like, well, we balance each other out,

but now we don't. Right, the relationship gets thrown off. And that's how simple people are, right? Yeah. That's how simple relationships are. I mean, I can tell you think so much deeper than most people, but it's really that simple. Yeah, that's that's how simple relationships are we I mean I can tell you think so much deeper than most people It's really that simple. Yeah, like oh damn you you might look as good as me now or better. I gotta go. Yeah Or someone that's like it's fine if you get to a size six, but if you get to a four or two

Oh, that was a good day. I don't want to be around you anymore. Like, yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it's, I think it's good to, you know, see it and admit it and kind of go out. Yeah, that's shitty. Like, why wouldn't you be, just like something else. Why wouldn't you be happy if your less wealthy friend finally does great? Yeah. You know, and I think that happens too.

Like, oh, I'm fine when we both were at this level, but now if you're at this level, and you have this nicer house, or you have the ability to whatever, go jump to the next, now I'm not okay with it anymore. And then there's some that are smart, that are like, cool, invite me over. And then there's some that are not, you know?

I wanna celebrate people's gain, right? I don't lead with the jealousy or the envy. I don't know why, I just never cared or maybe because my dad's rich and I got to doctor it. But I want to celebrate when people are happy. Like the last thing I want to do is cut them down. I just think there's, I think it's just recognizing that there might be some people in your life

just like you said. And sometimes they can be the oldest friend, maybe they can be a new friend. And it's just, it's like, it's nice to have the clarity and to also recognize, like I recognize I'm not perfect. I, you know, I have these things that piss off people, whatever. But, you know, and recognizing too, I, you know, I have these things that piss off people, whatever. But, you know, and recognizing too, like, okay, I was, I was into people seeing,

like, I'll be real honest, like I, I became friends with the awful grifter girl who told me that these earrings are with, I'm still these are the 42 earrings, that they're worth $3,000, lied to me. And I kind of became friends with her and I thought, oh, this other friend that I'm no longer friends with, let's see if she still follows me, she'll see if she's not going to the premiere now, I'm taking her.

Oh yeah. And I can say that. And it's not like I would have chosen somebody else. I really didn't have anybody else to choose from, but I was like, there was a little bit of that. Now I recognize that like, was I, do I, did I kind of deserve what I got because I didn't really investigate. I mean, I just believed that she I got because I didn't really investigate? I mean, I just believed that she was a nice,

normal person and she wasn't, but like my intentions weren't completely pure. I don't think we ever have pure intentions though. I mean, come on. What would that look like? We would be walked all over, we would be doormats, right? No, no, no one can screw with me if they don't want to be screwed back.

Yeah. That's unsexual, it doesn't mean. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like people are gonna know that if they mess with me, they are going to meet the very dark side of me, but that's only gonna come out if you invite it. Yeah.

Otherwise I'm rooting for you all the way. So tell everybody where they can follow you, get the book, everything that they need to know or contact you if they have a specific question or whatever. My Instagram's Dr. Leslie Dobson. My TikTok is too, but I think it was just banned because of the content. So I'm trying to figure that out.

Oh, I can tell you that. You have to say essay. Okay, I think I've been using too many backwards. And you can't say, you have to say, Fetifile or Schmetophile. Right. Spelling it differently. Yeah. Okay. And you could probably look up what you kind of kind of say, I just did one. And then I just was about to post it and I realized, oh, I said the full words, which I think is really annoying because I think that does keep people from getting the information. Yes.

But you have to say, you can't say like R-A-P-E. Well, right. But if you're saying grape, then you're minimizing rape. So like, I don't really understand. But if you're going to bother to do it, you might as well just play the game and get people to see it, you know as well just play the game and get people to see it, you know?

Yeah, because my goal is to build awareness. Because they'll still see it. I mean, they'll still get the message if you do the little game of the algorithm, which is annoying. And, you know, who knows, maybe that won't exist any year or whatever. Yeah, it changes all the time. I'll play the game. I just want women to be awesome and empower themselves.

Yeah. Give themselves permission to be just the awesomeness they are. Right. That's the message. But the book at my website is drleslydobson.com. And it's on there. And there's an interactive little game on there too. So you can actually put your friends on the sphere around you.

Oh, I love that. And see if they're draining your energy or not. It was a hard one because I put like, OK, my two-year-old, does he give me energy or take it away? And I'm like, no, he really does take it away. So if I put him in the middle, then I can't have a lot of other people around me. So depending on how he is,

I gotta move him around the sphere. So I had a lot of fun making this little interactive game. It's free, it's just on the website. I love it. Well, thank you so much. It was great meeting you. Yes. Thank you for analyzing me.

You're wonderful. Bye. Juicy Scoopers do not miss out. A lot of you so much. It was great meeting you. Yes. Thank you for analyzing me. You're wonderful. Bye. Juicy Scoopers do not miss out. A lot of you are crying. You did not buy your tickets to my LA show in March and it's sold out within a week. Well, lucky for you, Scottsdale. I'll be there Friday, May 3rd. Also, I'll be in Denver May 17th and 18th. But just announced today, your first day to buy tickets to Ju scooper to my show June 1st at Pachango resort talk about a perfect time of year to be there So fun you can buy those tickets today go to heather mcdonald net only go to heather mcdonald net Buy your tickets and then if you are not part of patreon, what are you doing with your life join my patreon today was a very

Intimate deeper conversation. That's the kind of juicy stuff we get into and so much more on the Patreon. I've been doing it for seven years, whatever level you join, you will have all the episodes for all those years available to you as a member. So do it, go to heathermcdonald.net

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