Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald - Juicy Con and Marrying the Wolf of Wall Street with Nadine Macaluso

Episode Date: November 7, 2023

In today’s episode, I sat down with the one and only Nadine Macaluso, aka Dr. Nae! Famously played by Margot Robbie in The Wolf of Wall Street, Nadine recalls being love bombed by ex husband Jordan Belfort, their tumultuous relationship, and how it all led to her work as a therapist specializing in dealing with narcissistic partners. She shares red flags and some basic tools for navigating abusive relationships. And of course, you know we had to cover and factcheck some of the iconic scenes from the movie. This is a juicy one. Enjoy! Shop Juicy Scoop Merch: https://juicyscoopshop.com Get extra juice on Patreon: https://patreon.com/juicyscoop Follow Me: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/heathermcdonald TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@heathermcdonald Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/HeatherMcDonald Preorder Nadine’s new book “Run Like Hell”: https://a.co/d/5sLEs6T Follow Nadine: https://drnae.com Treat yourself to the best bras on the market and save 20% at https://honeylove.com/juicy Go to https://theouai.com and enter promo code JUICY for 15% off! Go to https://quince.com/juicy for free shipping and 365 day returns. Request a Cologuard prescription today at https://cologuard.com/juicyscoop To listen to the podcast on YouTube: https://bit.ly/JuicyScoopPodYouTube Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast for free wherever you're listening or by using this link: https://bit.ly/JuicyScoopPod If you like the show, telling a friend about it would be amazing! You can text, email, Tweet, or send this link to a friend: https://bit.ly/JuicyScoopPod Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hey the McDonald has got the juices scoop. When you're on the road, when you're on the go, juices scoop is the show to know. She talks Hollywood tales, her real life, Mr. St.Vizereal data, and serial system. You'll be addicted and oh, take it fast to the number one tabloid real life hot cat. Listen in, listen up. Woo, woo, and a McDonald. Juicy scoop. Hello, and welcome to Juicy

scoop. I'm recording this from my beautiful room at the Plots of Tower where I performed at the Venetian Saturday night just so many GC scoopers. Sold out show, it was all that I ever wanted. It was my favorite show that I've ever done. And I've gotten an incredible amount of compliments in so many in person because the next

day, Sunday, yesterday, I went to BravoCon with Brady and Julie and my sister Shannon and my son Drake. And we had so much fun. I loved meaning so many of you. And it seems like everyone really had a blast. I'm going to get more into that on Thursday show, but in a nutshell, I think they did it really round smoothly. It was a lot of fun moments I saw, but not really very juicy. I think the juiciest moment was at the Heather McDonald live show. And I talked a little bit about that on my Patreon,

which you can listen to right now. I dropped a special one on Sunday. But we did go to the final watch, we had this live last night. We got tickets to that. And it was like the shade room. And it really just wasn't very shady. I think people were really on their best behavior

as far as like dropping juice or really dizzy each other. And the best line was they asked this girl from Dubai, and I'm not that familiar with her, but she was very funny. And they said, who do you think up here wears the most fake designers? And she said, she buy Sheree. Sheree.

And Sheree got up and that was going to funny because she had her her leg and she's like hobbling around. And she's like this dress is Alexander McQueen and the other housewife goes, Alexander McQueen or Alexander McShine. That by far was I think the highlight also, the Vanderpump guys, Tom Sedeval and James Kennedy had a push up contest and James won. I think those were like the things people are kind of talking about. So there should be more fun stuff like that in the future.

But I will do a better review and everybody they met and talked to and the juiciness, but we had the best time, killed it, went to great dinners, just had so much fun. And now I have a great interview I did with the real life wife of the Wolf of Wall Street. You probably remember the movie. The real wife is here, of course, they've sent Stavores and she's gone on to be a therapist helping people that are in narcissistic relationships. So very, very juicy conversation that you guys are going to get to listen to now. Enjoy. Well, we have an exciting show, don't we? I am with Dr. Neh. But her real name is Nadine MacAlusso. She has a new book, Run Like Hal. You can get it for pre-order. But I'm so

excited to talk to you because first of all, you're so fun on TikTok and everything. But you are the real life woman who married the Wolf of Wall Street. So Margot Robbie played you in the movie, Leonardo DiCaprio played your now ex-husband. Correct. The Wolf of Wall Street is one of my favorite movies. It's trending on Netflix right now. And you just said it's been 10 years.

Yes, 10 years anniversary. So sorry. So it's come out. And I mean, I want to get all into it, but I mean, I loved that movie. And that was really the first thing we saw Margot Robbie in. Yes.

And I remember going this, not like I can, I'm sure everyone in Hollywood said the same thing. But I was like, this girl is a star. This is, did you like the way she played you? Oh, I mean, I loved it. She was fabulous and I actually got to meet her because I'm from Brooklyn and they wanted my Brooklyn accent. So they asked me, will you meet Mark Arrabi and I said for sure. Yeah, oh, so before, okay. Yes, yes. So let's just kind of get into your background. Okay. And, you know, we saw the movie, remind people of the movie, what, obviously things are exaggerated

for the movie, but the story of the Wolf of Wall Street in case you don't know, is about your husband, Jordan, ex-husband. Yes. And he was just a go-getter, and he really rose on Wall Street, but he wasn't doing everything correctly. And it all came crashing down, but along with it, what made the movie, which is, what are the genres of film I love?

Is like cocaine, party, New York lifestyle that 80s fast and we see all that happening, 80s, 90s, 90s. 90s, more 90s. Yeah. And it's just a great, great movie. So if you haven't seen it, I say definitely watch that, then order her book. But let's get a little bit into your background of like where you grew up and everything.

Yeah. So I grew up in Brooklyn in the 70s, which was a great time in life. I wish we could go back to that time in Brooklyn with a single mom. And so I had a really charmed, easy life. And then I grew up poor, so I needed to make money. And nobody was handing me any money. And so I went to become a model because I needed money. That was simply the reason why.

And did you know growing up that you were exceptionally pretty? Like when does a really pretty person know that they're pretty? You know, I had no idea. And then at 13, everybody started to act really differently towards me. And I was just kind of like, what's happening? And somebody on my street, it asked me to be in a movie.

And then I started to realize it. But it's a strange phenomenon. I have a very attractive friend, still very pretty today. And he was from a single mom too, who had her very young. So the mom was always young and pretty. Yes. And I remember the mom telling me, she goes, I remember the first time,

like somebody was asking me for directions or something like a man. And then they were no longer looking at me. Right. And they were looking at, yeah, no, I now 13-year-old daughter, who's like, you know, quite attractive. Yes, yes, yes, Yeah. And my mom was 19 when she had me. Oh, but very, very similar. Yeah. And so I, yeah, I started to model in the city and was running around the city,

having the time of my life. It was hard modeling. You know, you have to a very thick skin. So you started to do that like high school college. I did that. Well, I did that at the end of high school and college, but my mother was very against it. She was very into education. Okay. And she did not like it, but I literally needed to make money. So I was like, sorry, Mom, got to do it. And then I was running around the city

and making a lot of money and having fun dating all these rich playboys in Manhattan. And that's just like in the movie, I went to Jordan's house in West Hampton. At a party. At a party. At a big party, a big West Hampton party. That's a great scene.

A big party. And when you went to the party, just someone was like, let's go to this killer party in the hampton. My boyfriend. Oh, you're with someone. I was with somebody, yeah. Okay, so tell that story, how did you meet?

Yeah, so we pull up to this big white house on the beach. I'm 22, I mean, totally clueless. Just in some ago, we're gonna have a great time. We're gonna meet some nice people and we walk in and everybody's acting so weird. Now, I don't know they're all on quail eggs. Okay, so they're all like slarring and like a little strange and then, but what happens in the movie happens in real life

One of the men pulls out his penis like or in front of me and Mordified and I look at my boyfriend. I'm like we got to get out of here. This is like I almost felt scared Yeah, and then we left But I guess Jordan had seen me. I mean, I met Jordan briefly. I barely even remember meeting him at the party. Did you realize he was a younger of the house? No, I don't even think so. I don't even think so. It was such a blur.

And then I guess he saw me and see this white Ferrari testerosa with a muffler that you could hear from 10 blocks away. So I could hear him circling around the hamptons, looking for me. Even though he was married. Okay, so then so when what happened then? How did he get you to go out? So then what happened is this older woman kept calling me and saying, you want to go out? So you want to go out? And I was like, why the hell does this woman

want to go out with me? But I'm people, please. Especially it's 22. So I was like, sure. So well, that guy Jordan Beau, both, what's gonna come? So what is he coming for? So he was gonna be using her to facilitate the date. Oh, he paid her $15,000. To find you, befriend you and get you to come to a restaurant. Yes. Which then he would show up at.

Yes, exactly. Oh my God. So he like saw you and was just, it was like, I guess. I've got to have it. The ultimate goal, like, fixation. Yes, okay. So I had no idea. I'm set up.

And we just got along great. Oh, is the woman still there? She was there. Okay. She was there. And then he was like, I'll drive you home. And I lived in Brooklyn Heights at the time. So he drove me home. And then he started to like touch my like, I was like, this guy might like me. Uh-huh. And then we pulled up to my house and. And is that the scene that we see where he's like, what can guy have friends? No, it's a different.

And it's a little bit different. A little bit different. But yeah, and then he said to me, oh, what's your phone number? And I said, I'm listed under, I feel your lope has figured out. Is that was my best friend that I lived with? Oh, okay.

And then the next day I came home just like, no cell phones. No, there's no cell phones. I just called the apartment and you guys split the phone bill down. Yes. And so then I come home the next day because I'm throwing a party for my best friend

for a birthday. And there are, I can't even, 300 bouquets of flowers. I can't fit them in my apartment. Just the overdoing of everything. And everybody's like, you didn't sleep with him. I didn't even know I was going on a date. Yeah. Yeah. And that's how it started. Guys, I want to tell you about Honey Love. I absolutely love their bras and their shape wear right now are wearing Honey Love's best seller crossover

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But at that point you had been romantic then? No, we hadn't been romantic yet. We got romantic. Like that was probably the summer. We didn't get romantic till around December. Okay. And so that's when he told, I don't know if somebody said to me, I saw Jordan or we got connected again,

and he told me he was separated. He had an apartment in the city. And so I really thought he was separated, but no, I know that wasn't clearly the case. Okay. And unfortunately. And he had a couple kids, or did he have no kids with her?

No kids with her. No kids with her. Okay. And then we went out on a date and that was it. I fell madly in love. Then you fell in love with them. Yeah, we fell madly in love. And so when he's just, you know, doing amazing,

we see in the movie, the yachts of this, that was the John Ham character who's, you know, kind of thinking something's up with his business. Did you, were you, Clueless, did you not, what was it like to be the woman of the guy? We see this a lot now with housewives and stuff. Yes. I know what was going on, which I totally can see how that would be.

Especially when you come into the marriage and he's already doing so well. Yes, you know, he's already, you guys group. No, but he's a very extraordinarily bright man, very bright man. And I mean, I never knew from money like this. Yeah. You know, when we first met, I was going to ask when he's like, here's 15,000. I couldn't even spend it.

To get outfits and stuff. Yeah, I couldn't even spend it. I bought my mother a stereo. I didn't even know what to do with the money. Honestly, and it was, I mean, listen, it was so much fun. I bought my mother a stereo. I didn't even know what to do with the money, honestly. And it was, I mean, listen, it was so much fun. The limos, the dinners, the, I'm just being so in love.

And it just, he swept me off my feet. He really did. He was good at it. Okay. So then you get, you decide to get married. Yes. Yeah. This is when it starts to get tricky. Okay.

I'll explain this. Yeah. So this one starts to get tricky because Jordan's used to getting whatever he wants. And so he's a member, he's a salesman. Right, so he starts to high pressure sales tactic me, right? He's like, we have to get married. Now, how long you'd been dating at this point? Six months.

Yeah. I was like, I don't want to get married. I'm 22, 23 years old. You look, I don't want to get married. If you don't marry me, I'm not dating you. I was like, all right. I guess I'll get married. Yeah, because you loved him.

Because I loved him. And then I just was like, always just miss love me so much that he wants to. And then it's like, if you don't have a baby right away, then I'm not going to marry you. So he was always moving the goalpost. So if you want to get you pregnant right away, so I need to wrap.

Yes, yes. I want to talk a little bit about that. Then I want to get you pregnant right away. So right away. Yes. Yes. I want to talk a little bit about that. Then I want to go back into the movie. Sure. I do think in your book you really get into details and you really explain things. I think this is a great book. And by the way, it comes out when January 9th. And I said, what a great book to preorder. January is that month that you're like, let me work on a little thing, a little of everything in my life, fitness, health, mental. And I just think this is like, so interesting,

because I was telling my Pilates of instructor that I work with, and I said, oh, my interview today is I was planning who you were. And she goes, what is love bombing? And she's like, oh, I think she thought love bombing was when they try to get back together with you. And I was like, no, my understanding is love bombing? And she's like, oh, I think she thought love bombing was when they tried to get back together with you. And I was like, no, my understanding is love bombing

is this initial thing, much like your situation with Jordan. Where they're so into it, moves so much faster than other people you've dated. Correct. That I believe it convinces you that if this guy loves like me this much and is so into me and is so making plans so much, then this must be the right person for me, right? Because he thinks I'm this great and I've never

had anyone think I'm this great before. Yes. Correct. It's the intensity of it. It's the over-the-top generosity, the helpfulness, the intense attention towards you, constant flattery, it's just coming at you, coming at you, coming at you. And it actually kind of puts you in a trance. Yeah. Where you just, like, oh, this is fabulous. And I mean, I would think everybody, like was your mom happy for you?

Was she suspicious at all? Or was she like this and we had the jackpot? She was, but my mom was a very bright woman, God bless her soul. And she sat me down before we got married. She goes, you know, you don't have to do this. And I was like, but mom, I love them. And so, and then we got married.

Yeah. And why did she say that? Because she was suspicious of this behavior. She might have been suspicious. And I think she knew I was so young. Yeah. What the hell did I know? You know, at 22, I think she knew I was so young. You know, what the hell did I know? You know, at 22, you think you know so much.

Right. I didn't know anything. Yeah. Okay, so you have a beautiful wedding. Yes. And then he's like, I want you off the pill, get pregnant right away, whatever. Yeah, well, I was actually pregnant at my wedding,

but I had a miscarriage. Okay. Yeah, and I didn't take talk about that. Uh-huh. Where, you know, the night before my wedding, but I had a miscarriage. Okay. Yeah, and I didn't take talk about that. Uh-huh. Where, you know, the night before my wedding, he's wasted. Now, I'd say to the sky, I'm gonna get married, I'm gonna have your baby.

You would think he's be present with me. No. So the night before our wedding, we get to a big fight because he's, he's stoned the night before. And what was his drugs in alcohol? Quail-ed. Quail-ed with alcohol or what? Mostly just quail-ed. You don't really need a lot of alcohol. Quail-ed is even like around anymore? No, you can't get them anymore.

Because they were so good, they banned them. Right. Well, that was what they talked about at the Playboy Mansion. Yes, yeah. The legs spreaders. Yes, yes, yes. So we got married and then, you know, life, all crazy life began. So then what happened? It wasn't, did you feel it immediate change right after the marriage with him or like once he got you once?

Yeah, it was, it started, I would say, six months with the intimidating and threatening behavior of, you know, you got to marry me or I won't be with you. You got to have babies or I won't marry you. You know, I started to see it, I won't be with you. You got to have babies or I won't marry you. You know, I started to see it, but I had never seen anything like that before. And I grew up in a very calm home without, because my dad, my parents, was divorced.

So I didn't even know from yelling and all of this intimidating behavior. So I was kind of shocked by it. And I really didn't know how to handle it. And I am from Brooklyn. I'm no wall flower. So I would push back at him, but I was no match for him and his temper.

And then I just started to see more of the anger and the control. Yeah. He really needed to control me. And how are some ways that he would do that? Oh, just, you could just feel it like, how can I think about it? Like where I was going, who I was going with, you can't be friends with that person. Oh really?

Yeah. Don't wear that or. And when that happens, is it just that you do push back. Yeah. Right. But then it's fine understanding that when people are in these situations, you push back. But it's like, even though you like this girl, and you know she's not bad news or anything, but the husband is like,

I don't want you being friends with that person. They're not good for you. They're not your friend or whatever. That by the third fight, you're like, you know what, I guess I won't meet them for lunch. Because it's like, I don't wanna come back from lunch and fight all night. And then so then all of a sudden,

that's when the isolation starts, right? Yeah, that's like I said, so it's little things, you know? Then they all start to add up. Right. And then all of a sudden, you lose yourself. Right. And it's a very slow burn.

Uh-huh. So you have your first child. Yes. And who's that? Chandler. Okay. And it's how old? Chandler's now 30.

Okay, great. And she's a therapist. Oh, great. Yeah, she's amazing. And then you had another one? I have a boy. Okay. His name's Carter. He's a musician.

Oh, great. Also fantastic. So you have that we see in the movie, you guys have the two kids. Yes. And one of the, tell me about the scene on the yacht in Italy. And what is the truth of that night versus what we saw because the helicopter comes to save you, but then the helicopter goes down.

Like what? That was all very true. Oh, really? It was the first time I had left my children because my son was really young. And I remember I even went to the backyard and got rocks with them and painted a box so they could shake it if they miss me.

I taped bedtime stories for them. It's a big deal to leave them and we go on the yacht and we lands in Rome. I guess we were going from Rome to Sardinia. And are you with who's the guy that plays his best friend? What's his name, the actor? Oh, Jonah. Jonah, he wasn't on that.

He wasn't there then. It was different friends. It was different friends. Okay. It was three other couples. And we get there and the captain's like, it's gonna be a little stormy, but we're pretty serious boats people by that point.

And Jordan's like, let's go. And we're sleeping and the waves were pretty strong and all of a sudden I look up in the state when I see water coming down on the bed. And I'm like, what is happening? And I go up there and we have a little dinghy about in the back called the Chandler. And all of a sudden, it gets pushed out to the ocean. And I say to the captain, you got to call a me day.

He's like, well, we call a me day. You better get off the shot. I said, we're going to get off the god's dead or alive. Like, we got to call the me day. And we were in Italy. So the Italian Coast Guard didn't speak English, really. They called the Mayday, but then the waves were coming so intensely. We got caught in a squall and they couldn't come save us. What happens is that you think everybody's

going to scream in those situations, but now I know as a trauma therapist, everybody starts to get really quiet and shut down because They think they're gonna die. And what happened was the Italian coat Navy was going somewhere and they rerouted them and sent an intrepid to us. It's like a huge ship to come save us. And at 5.30 in the morning, this was after hours, I lost 12 pounds and 18 hours from nerves.

When I got off the boat, I looked like a refugee, because I really thought I was gonna die. Can you really lose weight like that? I mean, I at least I looked like it. Like I lost a crazy amount of weight. And then they said, you have, you can have nothing on your person, get on the deck, and a frog man came, got me, wrapped me up, hoisted me 40 feet up into a helicopter,

and we all did it one by one and got saved and lived. And then the boat went down. And then the boat went down. Because if you don't drive into the waves, yeah, that was, I had a license playing on it. I did the helicopter cone that was trying to save you that he ordered, did that really go down? Well, we had a helicopter on the yacht.

So the yacht had a helicopter in a scene plane because Jordan goes big or goes home. So we actually had to push the helicopter or off the yacht for the helicopter to land. Okay, but that helicopter number came. Right, okay. So the one did come that came and saved us. Okay, right.

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And but in the movie, it's like he pushed for this even though they didn't really, they they some there was a character that said like, I don't think it's safe and he's like, I don't care, we've got to get there. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's a little bit true. I don't think Jordan want to put us in peril. I don't think he understood. But you have to remember that sort of personality is grandiose. They're larger than life. Right. They think they can handle and manage anything. But no, the sea, you got to respect. Now, did your mom have a relationship with her? I'm trying to remember if I'm wronged. Yes, she did. And what was the deal with that? They had a good enough relationship. Yeah, my mom was very respectful of her.

Uh-huh. And, um, okay, so when did the marriage then, like, what happened? I don't remember. Like, can you go to prison and then you break up? What happened? Well, it's different than what they show in the movie. Well, we'll have in real life. Yeah, what happened in real life is that Jordan's drug addiction got so insane.

And it just, our life got out of control and I used to fight with him and you have to get sober, you have to get sober, you're killing yourself and you know people that are addicted to drugs don't listen. I didn't know anything about drug addiction right? I didn't know how to handle it. I was in therapy at the time and so- And did you have those moments like I down just remembering where he was wasted and he tries to take the kids from you And I mean it can't even imagine how scary that is Yeah, when your partner you know is not in the right mind and your kids are with them or he's trying to take the kids Yeah, there were two that was the big moment in our life when I said to him

We had gone to a drug counselor and He didn't come back the next day and the drug counselor looked at me and she said, if you don't leave this man, you're gonna get cancer. And she snapped me and then that night I went home. Just cancer from the stress of my life. I was like, you have to.

You're physical health is sober. Yeah, she was like, this is way too toxic. So I said to him, you have to get sober. I said, I'm not gonna sit here and want you to kill yourself. I mean, this is insanity. And so that's when he went crazy. Do you know my clothing? I have to get sober. I said, I'm not going to sit here and watch you kill yourself. I mean, this is insanity. And so that's when he went crazy. Do you know my clothing?

Jewelry lit them on fire, put them in the fireplace. And I went into my closet and I leaned on the wall and I said, God, give me the strength to do this. And he went crazy. I left that night. My housekeeper was there. I knew my kids were safe. And then I came back.

And that's when he said to me, I'm taking our daughter to Florida, I charted a private plane. Now, I know he's wasted out of his mind. I'm like, over my dead body, you're doing that. And I went after him and luckily my mother had told me, call the police before you get home because tell them you're going to home to a domestic violence situation. And I chased after him and he did kick me down the stairs. Luckily, I was in a really good shape at 31. And I called the police and they came. And that was when he drove my daughter into the garage.

Because I, we all were fine. But because my mother told me to call the police, they came. And I was able to stop him because I said to my housekeeper close the garage door and we were able to stop him and that's when he drove us on to the garage door and then the police came. And so then then you were done. Yeah. Yeah. After that and was he cheating on you during that time? How do you have your kitchen cheating or was just the drugs? I never caught him cheating. That was more for the movie. I think and he needed to write it like that Which is that's his prerogative? Yeah, but after that we did state he did go to rehab

He did get sober and we did stay together for a year But I was done after that and then when did all the legal stuff happen and you realize it was all crashing down so then he got arrested and This is a very important point is that people say, oh, you know, you left him because you lost all his money. No. I did it because he was now in the government's problem. I knew I was safe.

Yeah. And I tried to stay with him and stick it out after he was sober. But when somebody kicks you down the stairs, it's just not, you can't really love them again. But I tried. And then he got arrested and I knew that he was the government's problem. I was safe now because he's very rich and powerful. I was afraid to divorce him. I don't know if he could take the kids.

And then that was it. And so then how much time did he do in prison? He did about 22 months, many, many years later. Oh, so it wasn't a big. Yeah. And that's all he did. That's all he did. Yeah. And then what about your, what about the money? Like, what, what did you live off of? Like, did all the money have to go back to the people that he, like, stole the money went back? And I was happy to get back. And was it like, now, like, with Erica Jane from Real House as Beverly Hills people were trying to, you know, they're, you gotta give these $750,000 earrings back and then no, they weren't bought with the, with the victims money they were bought with this.

Like, did you have to give gifts? I gave it all back. Oh, really? Yeah, because I gave it, I just, it was hard. What about your like engagement ring? Oh, I, yeah, I gave it back. Oh, you're just like taking all. I took a million dollars of joy

and I drove it to the courthouse with a bodyguard and they took all my homes everything I would say I left with my kids in my curtains because I got to say some furniture But I was happy to give it back because The people needed the money and then we're then what did you live off after that now how old are you? Dervority okay, one the kids are how old the kids are three now in 30. Okay. The kids are held. The kids are three and five, two and four. I had started a maternity company. Uh-huh.

So I had a website store for maternity clothes. Yeah, for maternity clothes, because I was wearing old designer clothes and then I was like, I don't want to wear that. So I started to make clothing. So I had a little business. Okay. And it was working.

So I had some independence. Not, I mean, not clearly what I had, but that was okay. That was okay. And so you had just like a, like a normal little home. So, yeah. So then what happens is, and is he giving you any money or no, because he's in prison and he has no money? He wasn't in prison yet. And I don't know if he was giving me money or he just had some money. Yeah, he could see the kids. Sure. He went to our Southampton home. I stayed in our Brookville home.

And then about it. So what you got to keep two homes? Just for the year. Oh, for one year. For one year. And then they took the hamptons. And they took them both. And then what happened to year and a half later,

I met my current husband. How'd you meet him on a blind date? By the same woman. What if I was? What if I was? Whatever was the same woman. What if I was what if it was the same woman? That would have been a red flag. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, it's different woman and He lives in California and he was in the garment business too like me. So we shared that interest He had three kids still you know still dies and said, you know, want to move to California.

And I was like, that is the best idea. I've heard in a long time, because I want to get my kids out of New York. I didn't want them to deal with that legacy of Jordan. That wasn't theirs to carry. And we moved and had a whole new fresh start. So you moved and started living in this outfit. Yes, in the South.

Which is like the Manhattan Beach area. We took kids so they went to school there and everything. Yeah. And then where was Jordan then when he just come? He followed the kids. Oh, so he then was living in California. Yeah, then he moved to California. He's a good dad.

Jordan's a really good dad. Yeah, he loves his kids and my kids love him. It's really nice. And so when did the book come out and become a movie? Like what was going on with that? Oh, yeah. And so here I am, I think I've like escaped all of this. Right, you're the different last name. Who would know anything, right?

Nobody knows anything, California. And you know, my ex-husband, God bless them. He is a genius. He decides to write a book while he's in jail. Oh, okay. So I guess, Cheech and Chong told him to write it. I was a cellmate. I don't know.

Really? Oh, that's amazing. it. I was a cellmate. I don't know. Really? Oh, that's amazing. So he writes a book and he shows it to me. And I'm so dramatic. And I read it and I'm like, what? You know, I call him up. How could you do this? He's like, I did it for us.

I'm like, no, you did it for you. Like, just say it. Because what did you not like about it? The book. Well, first of all, my life with him, as much fun as we had, was really scary and really traumatic. And he wrote it very funny.

And I didn't think it was so funny. It is a funny movie. And it is funny. And I mean, with that scene of him on the quailoods and going down the stairs of the country, that's my favorite scene. And, you know, and then, and then, and Jonah Hill is hilarious in it as well. Yes. Yes. So, throwing the little people around. Yes. No, I mean, they were crazy. Yeah. And so, I just didn't like it. It wasn't my

narrative. I mean, it was my first response. Yeah. And I would like, through myself and bad and cried. My husband was like, it's time to get up now. Yeah. And then I mean, it was my first response. And I would like, threw myself in bed and cried. My husband was like, it's time to get up now. Yeah. And then I will, you know, I was like, okay. And then I accepted it. I do that. I have to feel my feelings, express them. And then I'm like, okay, I'm going to accept this.

And so then I decided to go back to school to be a therapist at 39. So for any of those females that don't think they can have a career later, we both know you can. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then we can leave it to Jordan. Now he's got to make a movie with Leonardo da Cabo, El Mons, Chris Azi.

Now, did you know it was being shopped as a movie or when did you, or did you only know when it was like, okay, it's actually, here's the deadline article. This is all cast. No, no, no, no, because we have a Because we have a good relationship and he would talk to me. But did you ever think that? No, I thought it was. It's going to be like a lifetime movie. I mean, did you think it was going

to be like Oscar contender? You know, I should have known better knowing him. Yeah. I should have known better. But I was like, oh, it'll never happen. Yeah. And then sure enough, it happens. And it was really crazy timing because 2013,

that's when I was getting my doctorate and I was writing my dissertation. And I had my private practice because I had my masters. And I'm like, who the hell is gonna wanna come to me as therapists? I mean, how can it look like a crazy person? But ironically, the opposite happens.

Totally, because you have the experience, you're not someone, you know. I walk them around. It's not like a Catholic priest giving advice on how to stay married, you know? It's like, well, how do you know? You know, like you've been through it. Yes, I've been through it.

So I was worried about that, definitely for a few moments, and I made them change my name because they wanted to use my name. I said, no, I make no money. I have no creative input. The story is not from my perspective. You can't use my name.

So that's why they didn't use my name. What do they call her? Naomi. Oh, Naomi. I mean, that everybody knew it was me anyway, but it was like by one, like trying to have some independence. But it's like they pick a very similar looking girl and everything about it, right?

Yeah, same burger, yeah. Yeah, so then I, you know, I found out it was nice enough. They sent my husband and I to a private screening. And we just were like, okay. That was the only thing you got out of the movie. You didn't have to spend $10 on the ticket. I know popcorn.

Yeah, no popcorn. But we did that10 on the ticket. I know popcorn. Yeah. No popcorn. But we did that. And then Jordan and I took our son, because he was a teenager. I think my kids were going to the premiere anyway. And I was like, you know what? It's not that bad.

Yeah. It could have been a lot worse. I enjoyed the movie. And the movie came out on Christmas Day. And I had my kids Christmas morning. Jordan has them in the afternoon. And I could tell Jordan was feeling weird. And I was like, you know, why don't you guys come over? Why don't you guys come over for prime rib and green spinach.

And we watched old movies of the kids. The day the movie came out. And so your husband has always been fine. They have been so lovely when you're ex can get along with your husband. And did he ever get married or have any more kids? No, he was engaged for nine years, but now he married a really lovely young woman. Christina, she's great. Oh, that's great.

Yeah, yeah. That is awesome. Okay, so he is fine with now you telling your side of the story and you kind of explaining, oh, fine, is that. You know, I think it's been a little challenging for him, but he's accepted it and we do have a really good relationship and we've always kept a good relationship for our kids.

Yeah. And I always say to my patients, like I I know how hard it is to divorce a narcissist and deal with people like this and post-separation abuse is real. But if you could figure it out and keep it civil for the kids, do it. It's so important. Now, I have some questions about some of the stuff that we talked about in the book. Narcissus. First, the love bombing, like say. Now, I'm curious, did Jordan do this

with his last fiancee and his now wife? Does a guy know that he's doing it or can they grow out of it? Can they recognize it? I think it's part of their personality. They, a lot of them, like Jordan, go bigger, go home. Yeah. And I think it's the way he shows love. You know, I don't think he thinks,

oh, I'm going to love bomb her. Right. And I think it's who he is. And it's a great tactic because it works. Yeah. And, um, and like explain a little bit, because I feel like narcissism, it is a name that I think a word that I do think is being over you. Yes. And I believe you people can have narcissistic traits. But are you really a narcissist unless you have nine to the 11 or like, how do you get the, how do you really be called a narcissist without just the word we throw it in? Because I think a lot of people get confused thinking it means you're vain or conceited and it's not that.

Yeah. How would you best like describe? Right. And that's one of my pet peeves about a psychopathal, right? Is that where there's a lot of misinformation. So in my book, I actually don't call the man in the trauma bonds in narcissists, I call him a pathological lover, because pathological means mentally unwell, right? So they usually have some narcissistic traits, some psychopathic traits, usually a substance abuse disorder, some compulsive process sexual addiction. So it's a very complex personality. Narcissism is actually the lightest of the personality traits. If they're just narcissists, great. You know, that just means they're self-absorbed, grandiose, need a lot of admiration.

But it's the mix of all of the bad personality traits, because usually they're very hostile and antagonistic and very selfish. And this is the way I say it. This person will do anything to get their needs met for money, pleasure, power, and status. They will exploit, betray, and use people that they love. That's a true narcissist. That's a true pathological person will do that to the people that they love. Right. And it's painful. I mean, I think people need to look at that and when they think maybe they're worth a narcissist, go,, well, then I'm probably not with one

because this person wouldn't do that. Do I think, do they admit that they're wrong? No, like never. But does that mean that they want my birthday to suck? Like I want you all these things on TikTok and that like a narcissist will make sure that every holiday is ruined and make sure that if it's something for you,

they'll set out to like pick a fight that morning and everything. And so then there's people that I've thought have been kind of narcissistic in my life and then when I go through those lists, I'm like, oh, actually they're not. And then I've had like Dr. Drew say, well, some narcissistic traits are good.

You know, most pilots, you kind of want the pilots lying your plane to be, some narcissistic traits are good. Most pilots, you kind of want the pilot to be a little narcissistic because you want them to have the confidence to know that they are the best at doing this job. That's right. In some ways, it can just be a very capable in believing in yourself too. Exactly. And those are the good qualities. But at the end of the day, abuse is about control, right? So that's really what happens in a trauma bond is that the person is really controlled and abused by their partner. So they have to have two things for a trauma bond. They have to have a power imbalance, meaning that one person holds the power. Sometimes they get that power by being dominating and intimidating, right?

And so we fear them. Right. So we're like, okay, you're in trouble. Because there's screaming and yelling. Yeah, I just like forget it. If I don't go out to lunch with my friend. Right. And then the other thing is that you have to have intermittent abuse. So people have this thing that gets a cycle of abuse.

No, it was a cycle of abuse. It'd be easy to track. It's intermittent abuse. 75% of the time they're usually controlling abuse of betraying, lying, manipulative, 25 to 35% of the time that generous, helpful and kind. So it's the mix of those two different behaviors and the intensity of them both that keep the bond. And then what if you're also intermittent, do intermittent fasting, intermediate, wait,

intermittent intermittent fasting, Along with intermittent fasting. That you might be hungry. Yeah, so those are the two things that you really need to have a trauma bond. So that's why people think trauma bond. Do you have to bond with somebody else? No, you're bonding with that person, dramatically. Oh, even though they're the one who's causing it. Yeah, that's what I thought a trauma bond was something like,

like you and I both have lived through trauma. A lot of people think that. Oh, yes. No, you're bonded to a person who's traumatizing you. Oh, mm-hmm. Yes. Now, like, is there, is there any, like, I feel like when someone comes and there was someone like this, the,

it's always like, well, it's now we're gonna get better. Get out, that's that. But like, is there, is there any situation in which someone can go, all right, I just have to change the way I react because I do wanna stay with this person. I don't like these things about this person. I think this person is wrong,

but I don't know, maybe play along and let them think they got their way. I don't know, how do this person. I think this person is wrong. But I don't know, maybe play along and let them think they got their way. I don't know. How do someone do that? That what is the solution if you're not willing to like? If you're not willing to leave. Get divorced, sell your house. Yeah, I think the solution is to really,

because I think in a trauma bond, we're very focused on the other person. And I think the solution is to turn the mirror back on yourself and get really focused on yourself. And if you have children, focused on your children, because if you make a choice to say, and I have no judgment on any of that,

then better yourself. Make sure you're physically healthy, mentally healthy, get into therapy. Maybe make sure you have a career. So if you do wanna leave, you have some financial independence. I mean, relationships and marriages are so complex. Right.

And so there's no judgment. Plenty of women come to me. And we just might hold it for years till they're ready to leave. It's not my job. Right? When someone chooses to leave, that's a very personal decision.

Now, unless they're in physical danger, then that's very different. But have you ever had someone where it actually, where you are like, this person absolutely should leave. Yes. And they don't, but then years later, it did get better, or does it never really get better, or does the guy ever change or no? If it's that extreme that I'm really thinking

they should leave, the guy usually doesn't get better. Now, does that mean that I haven't seen men get better? I have and there's been one incidence. Let's talk about the one plus. Where the man realizes the woman doesn't need him. Oh. And he wants to change because listen, I wouldn't be there if I didn't think people could change.

Yeah. I'm in the business of helping people change, right? Right. So, yeah, when they realize you don't need them, sometimes they change. Oh. Yeah. But they have to want to. Right.

Right. And that's not up to you. Right, exactly. No. And then what are these, you talk about the clusters. Oh, yeah, the cluster B personality. Yeah, so that's where narcissism, anti-social personality disorder, borderline

and histrionic personality disorder, those are the personality disorders that lend themselves to pathological people, usually anti-social. It's like histrionic. Because I feel like that's something that we don't hear a lot about. Yeah.

I definitely know someone who was. Mm-hmm. And I was always like, is this person bipolar? Like, did it, did it? And not until someone's like, I think that she's histrionic and then sent me this stuff. And I was like, oh my gosh, this explains everything. So explain a little bit what histrionic is.

Yeah, so similar to all the Cluster B personalities, these people are dramatic. To have a relationship feels dramatic and erratic. They're very reactive. They can be very needy. They can just like start to get angry at you over nothing. They can need a lot of attention. So yeah, it's a person that's very dramatic

and erratic in their relationships. So we call them personality disorders, but now people wanna call them interpersonality disorders because it's not just like anxiety and depression, it greatly affects the people as you're saying, like with your friend, that you're in relationship with, right? It affected you to be in relationship with a person like that. Yeah.

And it's frustrating. Yeah. So that's the cluster B, but then they have the psychop, but the, then they have Machiavellianism. What is that? Highly manipulative. Like, let's look at Jordan, setting me up on that date. That's highly manipulative. Because you just thought it was just like a casual dinner thing.

Yeah. So with this girl, it was supposed to be a friend. Yes. Yes. And seeking you out and everything. Yes, they could be. Really fixated on you. Yeah, they can be highly manipulative.

And then the psychopathic part is very cold, very callous, very insensitive. If you notice they can hurt their partners a lot, betray them, time and time again, cheating on them with no remorse or empathy. It's like get over it, wasn't that bad? And when a cheater is like that, like get over, like, is it like get over because I own a helicopter or because I'm rich or like what is,

like I do think there's women that you know, accept cheating or whatever because they're like, yeah, but as long as you don't bring her home and you don't bring her around and you don't have a baby with her, I'm just gonna compartmentalize because I do have this fabulous life. Like I've had people that,

I've tracked the girls in there like, I just told her, look around, look around, deal with it. You know, like women who are married, it's like, you know, yes, very simple, 100 million whatever dollar people. Yeah.

And I mean, it's not what I would want, you know, it's not what I could deal with. I don't think because it's like, it's not what I would want, you know? It's not what I could deal with. I don't think because it's like, it's like the trust of like, I'm just supposed to not know where you are or. Or I mean, like, what about those type of people? What about a woman that has your own woman that comes to you and is like,

listen, my husband Cheats, he has done it. I'm just trying to find a way that I can still love and respect him because I don't wanna leave. Like how? Oh yeah, I'd just feel like you're way that I can still love and respect him because I don't want to leave. Like how? I would just feel like you're like, like playing an actress. Like how are you supposed to want to sleep with this person or even enjoy a conversation when you're like, I'm fucking hate you.

I know. Cheating with this girl. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think a lot of women stay out of fear, emotional dependency, financial dependency, but also the thing about a trauma bond is hope is the hook. They think that maybe they're going to change or maybe they'll recognize their ways and usually they don't, but what happens in this relationship is the woman's very confused because remember, he has two masks, he's good and he's bad. So then she starts to think,

is he really bad or is he really good? Am I crazy or is this relationship normal? Wait, is a relationship bad? Is it good? So she has something called cognitive dissonance where she's always confused about is he good? Am I good? Am I bad? Is he good? Is relationship good? And that's really confusing. And what the research shows and that's what I write about in my book, am I good, am I bad, is he good, is relationship good, and that's really confusing. And what the research shows, and that's what I write about in my book, it shuts off your executive functioning. Like you really can't think and plan and organize when you're so confused internally. Right.

It's very, you know, and that's why people say, oh, she should leave. It's very, we're talking about very complex psychological topics. Yeah. You know, I saw this thing where this woman asked her husband, it was not a take talk. Yeah. And he's like, probably like late 60s, 70s. And she's like, I just want to ask you, you know, why do you think men cheat? And he's like, well, you know, I've worked with men in all my life, which let's me tell you, he's probably finance something that's a lot of men. And he goes, and

there's this thing back in my day called big man on campus. Okay. I don't want to feel like they're the big man on campus. Yeah. And it's with them. It's not the wife. It's not because their wife isn't Sleeping with them enough or being sweet enough or pretty enough. It's that when they're Is that somebody at work or somebody outside their home makes them once again Feel like the quarterback feel like the big-bound campus either they maybe were once at one time or they never were. And that is why then they pursue someone. Yeah. Well, I have two thoughts on that.

One is that men like that want to be admired, but I try to teach them love is not admiration. And a lot of times they feel entitled to it and they feel superior. Yeah. They really, there's a great book. Why does he do that? By Lindsay Bankropp, who's a total expert in this field, he's worked with these men for 30 years. And he says it quite simply.

They feel entitled and superior. And especially if they're really successful. Yeah. I should get what I want when I want it. I make this much money. Yeah. But not they mean that I want to leave my wife. Right.

Doesn't mean she's not lovely and wonderful. But but but I want but I want this new bet.'t want to leave my wife. Right. It doesn't mean she's not lovely and wonderful. But I want this need to bet. Right. But there's something I want this ego fed. Right. So if we go, they will do anything to get their needs met, right, at their partner's expense, but not understanding that there's another person on the side of that that loves them,

that has feelings for them. But if their feelings are shallow in general, they can't relate to it. They don't have empathy for their wives. You know, I have, I've known somebody and her husband cheated on her, married the woman. And I'm really his life. I mean, she turned out to be absolutely awful, awful. And just the worst. It's over with now. And I said to her, I go, I

got to know, you know, and she's still so lovely, biting him over for Christmas, being great about the kids. And then the second wife made her life hell unnecessarily. Okay. But I said, now, has he ever just said, God did I fuck up? Because my friend is still gorgeous, fabulous, now she's met the next love of her life or whatever. But like, she was never gonna get divorced. She was still down to have sex and work, make money, be a delight, decorate the whole,

like everything's along. And it was really an ego thing where, who knows what, but this woman came, she was the patient of his and she just latched on. Yeah. Like just completely latched on, hooked into him, convinced him, manipulated him, everything. And then continue to manipulate him and cause problems with his kids and everything for all the years until now she's gone. But like, you know, she said he did,

he did finally say something. He said like, I just wanna say, you know, you've just been so great and you didn't have to be because I know I put you through hell. Oh, I thought that was kind of nice. I wanted a little more tea time. I wanted him to really say what the hell did I do?

Yeah. Like more accounts of it. I mean, but I gotta say, but for years I've been like, he's got to be like, why the fuck did I cheat and then end up with this awful person? I know. And you just don't know. You know at least you know what you got when you're married. I mean, have you had many men or women that say that they the men do and say, God, what did I do that? Like how did I just stay with the first? So there's not many that go, God, why didn't I just stay with the first wife? Because I sometimes I see these men, right? Yeah. So they have the, the, the first wife, they have the kids and everything. They,

she get divorced and then they meet the girl. It's 20 years younger and she acts like, oh, I love our life. I'm a nice stepmother. Oh, no, I never want to have kids and then sure enough, they're married and she's like, I got gotta have kids. So now he's got two little kids and he's 57 years old. And he has two little kids with a second wife and the other ones are finally going to college. And I'm like, I just see some of those guys walking around with a new bracelet to Disneyland and they're sweating. And I'm like, is it really that fun with this one?

It's literally the same thing, except that you're 30 years old. I know. I know. You know, I say, I just say like, I'm at the Grand Varens stage right now with my husband. We've been together 24 years. Then trust me, marriage is marriage, right? Yeah.

It hasn't been perfect, but we've made it through. And I say to people, if you could just stay in it, that's what I say. It's so beautiful to be at this stage right now with our grandkids and all of our kids together. So how old are you together? I have a three-month-old's grandson and a three-year-old. And you're from your daughter? My daughter just had a baby.

Okay. And then my sub-daughter had a baby. And it is so great. Oh my God, it's so great. So much fun. And the family holidays and the vacations, you know, and there is something about family. Well, I mean, that's the thing I've always said, like to people, I'm always like, do you

see yourself babysitting your grandkids together with this man? Yes. And if that's what you want, now that you should have to put up with abuse or anything. Of course. But, you know, like just take a breath. Yes. Second up. Marriage is, someone said also to like marriage doesn't mean you're guaranteed happiness

every day. No. No. Yeah, I always say to my patients, if you don't hate your husband once a day, you're not in a good marriage. Yeah. I mean, it is work. Yeah.

You know, and that. And that's different. So we call that situational couple's violence where I think that's what it's called. Yeah. And that's different than like, or situational couples fights. Like that's different than a trauma bond, right? Okay.

So like we all fight. We all fight about what card to buy, how much money to spend, how much sex we're having. I mean, these are common. Domestic. There's just domestic stuff too. They'll disagree on, right? Like they do, like much sex we're having. I mean, these are common. Domestic. There's just domestic stuff too. The leads disagree on, right?

Like, shut the door. Right. Or my husband's like, you're too easy on our son. He's going to not be strong enough. Maybe he's awesome, right? Yeah. So those are typical fights. Right.

And we all have to figure out how to communicate and work through those. Right. But that's different than the sort of thing that I'm writing about. That's why I put, run like L, because if you're with a coercively controlling abusive betraying person has a pattern of that and substance abuse and all the things that go along with that, it's good to get out if you can.

And I believe too that like just because he was, you know, you had your situation with him. Yes. 25 years later or whatever, based on who he gets with now or married with like, I have this other friend and they had an awful marriage and they had the same birthday. Not that I'm into like astronomy, but I did think it was kind of weird. Maybe like it just, I don't know. It's not meant to be just too much alike. Very compatible, very compatible.

They have two kids, they break up, he gets married to somebody else, that's another kid. And she's like, when you go over there, like what's it like? Like do they fight or anything? And the daughter was like, no. Like they don't.

Huh. And I don't, also I don't think it was all his fault. I do think sometimes it's just an awful combination. And sometimes you just find someone, the second time around that's just, we doesn't mean you're gonna have the same relationship every time, you know, or it doesn't mean that if this guy was this way with this woman,

like that you should be like, oh, but definitely don't date him, you know, like I mean, give him a chance, I guess. It's providing it's not, you know. Right, providing it's not too extreme. Yeah. And one of the reasons also why I wrote my book is also for like young women to educate them, right? Because when I left my ex-husband,

nobody was talking about trauma ones, and nice is this, none of them. I was like totally in the woods on my own, right? And so I also offered this as a guide to young women because we need to learn about relationships. So we learn about reading, writing, right, math. Nobody teaches us about relationships and they're the total foundation of our lives.

Right. And they're the most important thing that's what makes life worth living as far as I'm concerned. And so I want wanna educate young women too what to look out for. Yeah, exactly. It's very important. Before you end up in all these complicated things.

What about, have you found that when people do get divorced, I guess it's all different, Typhoon. I was front of really interesting when someone's like, oh, I knew as I was walking down the aisle. Yes. That I shouldn't do it. Yes. And that was me.

So you had the doubts. I had the doubts. I had the doubts. Because the night before he was wasted. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I did a tick talk about it before I

talked about where we got engaged. Where did you get engaged? In Brooklyn in front of my favorite fast food restaurant, Cole Rolling Monster. Yeah. She said, Bay, and we're in his Ferrari and he whips out this five-carat diamond and he gives it to me and I do want to marry me.

I say yes, but inside my stomach said, uh-oh. Yeah. And I totally ignored my gut. Right. Well, I was going to France on the Concord. Yeah, I mean, I think going to France on the Concord. Yeah, I mean, I think all of that fun and fabulousness made me ignore my gut.

It's going to be very, or anything what it is, the wedding's planned, or you're of an age that you're like, I really want to be a mom. That's true. And so true for so many women. Yeah. Yeah. And they're like, many women. Yeah. Yeah. And they're like, well, it's now or never.

Like, and they haven't even had people be like, I was like, hey, well, maybe I'll be divorced at 40 with a four year old, but at least I'll have a four year old. At least I'll have tried or whatever. Yes. Because half the people get divorced anyway. So who's to say? Right. I don't know.

That's true. Sometimes I mean, it is okay to take the leap or whatever, but I mean, who's ever going to totally know? You never really know. You never really know. But they're all red flags now that I now illuminate, you know, like look out for these. If you see them, what are some of the top red flags before you wrap up? Yeah.

So substance abuse, if they tell you their ex was the craziest person in the world, if they don't respect your boundaries, if they want them to monopolize all your time. So they're a thing. What if they want to free some? Initially, might be an issue. We could do that maybe 10 years down the road. But sex should be good and healthy in the beginning. I just saw that the prime minister of Italy, she's a female, a true active woman,

looking at me, she's in her 40s or something, and hot boyfriend. She said they, the story is they broke up because he wanted a three-some and a four-some and it was like recorded or whatever. and it was like recorded or whatever. And I'm like, you are running a country. How did you run for that? And your man is still like, can you go down on this girl while I watch? Like, what the hell? Like, I don't have enough to do in my life.

That's, can I, and then she admitted that? This was like on TMZ, or I saw the story. You saw the story and I read just the headline. Oh boy. But it was that they broke up story and I read just the headline. Oh boy. But it was that they broke up and I guess allegedly the rumor is this is the reason why. But she said we're just going our separate ways or whatever. Yes. Okay.

But I'm like, it's a crazy world. Yeah, it doesn't matter if you're like running a country or just a housewife. And I think that's like a really beautiful point to mention is that, and that's why one other reason I wrote my book is that let's stop blaming the woman. It doesn't matter if she's the most beautiful actress, if she's a housewife, if she's a teacher, no matter who she is, it happens to everyone and everybody. Right. It just does.

So stop saying she's codependent. She's there. She's that. No, she's just a person on the planet that wants to be loved. Right. It just does. So stop saying she's cotapensin. She's this. She's that. No, she's just a person on the planet that wants to be loved. That ends it up with the wrong person. Or when people are like, I can't believe I believe this con man who might be stealing your money, but a horse is cheating or be a con man of love. Okay. Right. I can't believe. I'm so stupid. I'm so stupid. Why would you why do you know no, you're not stupid. Why is it wrong to believe that someone thought you were fabulous and that someone was into you? And that's right.

That's right. You're lovable. Why is that? Why shouldn't you believe that someone's intentions are good? Exactly. Because your intentions are good. Well, that's exactly what I'm saying. You're walking out of the world being out happy person and a good person. So then why would you think not everybody would be a good person? Exactly. That's exactly what happens. We start to see the world being out happy person and a good person. So then why would you think not everybody would be a good person?

Exactly. That's exactly what happens. We start to see the world through our lands and we think everybody else sees the world that way, but they don't. Yeah, but they don't. Yeah. Well, I'm really excited that you came here. It's run like hell.

Nadine McEluso. That Italian? Yeah, I married a crazy Sicilian. Oh, nice. And you tell everybody where they can pre-order the book. Yeah, you can go to Amazon and pre-order the book. And how can they follow you? Yeah, they can see me on the real Dr. Nadine on Instagram.

I post every single day about all this stuff. I've been doing it since 2012, I think. And now I got this crazy following on TikTok. And that's Dr. Neh and A.E. LMFT. And I only did that because one of my young patients was like, you have to go on TikTok. Isn't it great, though? It's great.

And I'm glad I did. Yeah. It's a lot of fun. Well, I'm so glad you came. Thanks, Heather. I'm glad you're a GC scupper, too. Oh, I am a serious GC scupper. I needed after all my serious days as a therapist good that's what I like

I like it that's you know, it's it's a nice little escape It really is it really is it works. Thanks Heather. Thank you