Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald - Juicy Crimes: Karen Read, Idaho, Lori Vallow with Annie Elise

Starting point is 00:00:00 Heather McDonald has got the Juicy Scoop. When you're on the road, when you're on the go, Juicy Scoop is the show to know. She talks Hollywood tales, her real life Mr. Safe and Serial Data, and Serial Sister. You'll be addicted and addicted fast to the number one tabloid real life podcast. Listen in, listen up. Woo woo.

Starting point is 00:00:26 Heather McDonald. Juicy Scoop. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. Well, I have a real juicy show today. We're gonna cover some juicy crimes and I love my guest, but I know you want me to get into the Valley, what's going on. And I, because we did such a full show today,

Starting point is 00:00:49 I'm gonna cover the Valley and the inside scoop that I have about some of the players, cause you know I'm one of the Valley girls. I am going to do that on my Friday Patreon. So you go to heatherringdahl.net and you click on Patreon and you'll get that along with all the most personal stuff about my life. So let's get into it. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. Today we're gonna get into some of your juiciest crimes that you guys have been talking about, that I've been talking about and I have an

Starting point is 00:01:19 expert, yes, because you tell me you don't know what you're talking about, Heather, sometimes with these crimes. But I love them. And that's why I love having someone who really is an expert. And please welcome Annie Elise from your YouTube show. It's hard to say serialist Lee YouTube and podcast. Serial, serious, great show. I've been a guest on your show. And I'm so excited to have you here

Starting point is 00:01:47 because I am obsessed with the Karen Reed case. And it's one of those that I've covered on my juicy crimes, which I do on Patreon and I've covered it here. And I love all the different theories and I've tried to cast her of what the show would be, the movie that'll be about her life. Who do you think it'll be? Oh, well, I thought of someone last night that I think would be really good.

Starting point is 00:02:11 Who? Jessica Biel. That is a good one. Do you think she could do a Boston accent? I think she's a really good actress, so I think if she wanted to. Of course, we could also go with, I'm gonna go to Karen Reid, we could also go, I mean, it doesn't

Starting point is 00:02:27 have to be the exact look. And it doesn't have to be someone who's brunette and doesn't have to be someone who kind of has like, the like the kind of hooded slanted like sexy eye. I think who's the girl that played one drop? Amanda Seyfried, Seyfried. Because I think she is such a good actress, I think, and because she embodied that character of Elizabeth Holmes, I think she could do her really well. I just know that when you talk about can she do an accent, there's certain actors that

Starting point is 00:02:56 like you know can get it down and do it. I don't want Blake Lively to do her awful Boston accent from the town. From the town. From the town where she was having an affair with Ben Affleck, allegedly. Oh my gosh. I just saw a clip recently of someone posted of Reese Witherspoon, and they were like, I think she's talking about her friend Jennifer Garner, because she was being starkey.

Starting point is 00:03:21 She was doing a roast or something. And she was like, and when you send nudes to your married boyfriend don't include your face and everyone was like I think that's because you see how Jennifer Garner recently did some posts this is how I talked to Blake Lively like everything's just coming out. I know there's also been the new information I just saw this weekend we can talk a little bit about that. I know there's a real crime. No I have some new information too, so go.

Starting point is 00:03:46 About Justin and Blake. Okay, so what I had heard this weekend is that her company she created, the Van City, which is Ryan's, and hers was like Tarzana, something, and how they were saying that the affair did for sure start during the Green Lantern,

Starting point is 00:04:02 and that that's when the company was created, and it was like a hybrid of the name and all of this stuff just kind of again illustrating. Allegedly. Yeah, allegedly illustrating all of the shadiness. This episode of Juicy Scoop is sponsored by booking.com, booking.yeah. When it comes to planning travel,

Starting point is 00:04:19 it's really specific to what you need for that specific trip. So whether I'm going with the whole family and now I have young adults and maybe they're bringing a special someone, we need to find a place where we can all feel like we can get together but have our separate time alone. That's why I love Booking.com, Booking.yeah. They have a huge variety of options from hotels to vacation rentals and I'm always able to find something that fits my specific needs and my family's specific

Starting point is 00:04:45 needs. Find exactly what you're booking for on booking.com, booking.yeah. I know getting your hands on Ozempic or Rogovie might be difficult. You don't know where to start. Maybe you're negotiating with your insurance provider. Will they cover it? Where do I go for it? That's what I love about Roe. All you have to do is submit your insurance card and Rho will take care of the rest. No paperwork, no negotiating, no waiting on hold. Go to rho.co.gov.uk-sha-juicy-scoop for your free insurance check. That's r-o-dot-c-o-slash-juicy-scoop to see if your insurance covers GLP-1s for free. Go to row.co. slash safety for black box warning and full safety information about GLP-1 medications. You guys know how much I love quints and spring is upon us. We've got into vacation mode and I love all my quints items.

Starting point is 00:05:40 I love my silk. I have these great silk dresses that roll up easy, look great, are perfect for summer and layering with some of their great cashmere sweaters. You know I love all of their stuff. And the best is, Quince now has premium luggage options and stylish tote bags to carry it all. Their luggage is so great and I just got a dark green carry-on bag and I'm feeling so chic as I go through the airport. By partnering directly with Top Factories, Quince cuts out the middleman and passes the savings on to us. So we love that and they only work with factories that use safe, ethical, responsible manufacturing practices. So for your next trip, treat yourself to the lux upgrades

Starting point is 00:06:21 you deserve from Quince. Go to quince.com slash juicy for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's q i n c e.com slash juicy to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quinn's.com slash juicy. The other part of that whole thing is that that it was that company that that they said this is this company brought made this like weird lawsuit that then was able to have that publicist go oh my god I'm being sued okay here's all the text messages and because the Justin Bell Donnie side never understood how this even began and now they're realizing that that company,

Starting point is 00:07:06 whatever you said, Van. It's like Tarzan, some weird thing. Sent out this thing, this frivolous lawsuit that then got those text messages, but then from there, they surmised, oh my God, there was a smear campaign against us, against Blake Blake from Justin Bell Doni side. And according to people that are talking to the Justin Bell

Starting point is 00:07:30 Doni people, they now they were so blindsided Justin and so confused from the beginning of when she first did the lawsuit, then the New York Times article and now they believe in their research some of the bad press and videos that they're getting from her supposedly being rude on set and whatever it was really came from DV victims domestic violent victims who are unhappy with her the way she promoted the movie. And they were fans of Colleen who wrote the book. And it's them who got, who were doing the kind of

Starting point is 00:08:13 getting out the bad stories about Blake. And it was never Justin and his team, which the one of the things I find fascinating about this whole thing is all of that. The bots, the spirit campaigns, how it comes about, how it can roll, how when you're the recipient of it, it seems much larger than it really is. Why sometimes you should probably not acknowledge it and let it go. Because I always said, I forgot about the bad press by the time the New York Times article

Starting point is 00:08:41 came out. I'd forgotten all about it. A hundred percent. And it tracks if other people were responsible for it, because I remember when I saw the movie, I saw it with my sister, I had read the book, and I myself was like, this is horrible, the way they're portraying this is completely wrong,

Starting point is 00:08:55 they didn't even stay true to the book, so I could see where people were getting angry about that and how spoken. But to your point, yeah, you just ride the wave of the bad press, because it's gonna be in the rear view mirror before you know it. Just like, don't get sucked up and now look at what's happening. And now according to, you know, what's out there is yes, like the depositions are coming

Starting point is 00:09:16 and Taylor Swift will have to do it, which I mean, that can end a friendship where you're like, I have to, I mean, anything that's like friendship. Yeah. Where you're like, I have to try. I mean, anything that's like turn over your text messages will make everybody's butthole clinch. Like, it is just anything like that is like, what? How far back do we have to go? Like, what do you mean? What did I say?

Starting point is 00:09:38 I would never want my text messages out there. Nobody hack me. Please, nobody hack me. I mean, it's like, yeah. It's just like, what the hell? It's crazy. Anyway, so let's get into Karen Reed, who will not be played by Blake Lively.

Starting point is 00:09:54 Yes, definitely. She is a juicy scooper. Karen Reed is? Yes. Ah, OK. Somebody I know met her. Can't say who met her. So I want to give her case justice.

Starting point is 00:10:08 And I have said this is, why don't you, since you're the expert, why don't you say to the people that might still be confused of what this case is about, why don't you explain a little bit about it? Okay, so Karen Reed is a 44 year old woman from Massachusetts and she's accused of hitting her Boston cop boyfriend John O'Keefe with her car while she was under the influence and then it ultimately resulted in his death. This was back in January of 2022 and so they had gone out

Starting point is 00:10:38 drinking that night with a bunch of other cop friends. They went from bar to bar, consumed a fair amount of alcohol. It sounds like a lot, yeah. And then towards the end of the night, one of the women that she was with said, oh, we're all gonna go back to my sister's house, who's also married to a Boston cop, and we're gonna kind of have the after party keep going.

Starting point is 00:10:57 So they go to the house, and according to Karen, she pulls up, they'd never been to that house before, so she wanted to make sure that they were welcome. And so John got out of the car, he was gonna go pop his head in and be like hey Is it cool for here and then like come back out and get Karen they had obviously been drinking so he goes in and she Says he doesn't come back out so she just increasingly is getting irritated and then ends up just being like F John I'm going back home to his house Then she wakes up around 4 in the morning. He's still not home.

Starting point is 00:11:25 And so she starts panicking. She calls her friend, Jen McCabe, who was the one who invited them to that house. And she's like, where's John? Where's John? Like, have you seen him? Nobody has seen him. All-

Starting point is 00:11:37 Does that girl, so that girl was just, that girl was the sister-in-law of the owner of the house? Yeah, her sister is Mary. Yeah, so the sister-in-law of the owner of the house? Yeah, her sister is married. So the sister-in-law is the owner. Was she able to... At that point, did that girl answer the phone at 4 a.m.? The sister-in-law? That's where it gets interesting.

Starting point is 00:11:54 She never called her sister. When they got back to that house, they went to John's house, then they came back. And then she gets like two friends, right? Two friends, Carrie and Jen. To come with her to go- Carrie and Jen. To go back to the house. And they go back to the house, she sees John, she-

Starting point is 00:12:08 In the snow. In the snow, jumps out of the car, she's like, that's him, that's him. She goes, tries to start warming him up, getting hit, like doing CPR. They're in front of the house, which is Jen's sister who lives in there. They just found a dead body on the lawn.

Starting point is 00:12:22 She doesn't even go up, knock on the door to make sure her sister's okay. Her sister's husband, who's a first responder, a trained cop doesn't come out. Okay, so wait, just so I can... So Karen gets her friend Jen, whose sister lives in the house. They hop in the car with Karen first thing in the morning, four or thirty in the morning, 5 in the morning, to go back to the house, and that's where Karen, who is still behind the wheel, right? She's driving or is Sonny Welles driving?

Starting point is 00:12:51 So at first she drove to Jen's, and then their friend Carrie met up as well. They said, let's go check John's house again, even though that's where Karen just came from. They're like, maybe you didn't see him. Maybe he came home and he was in another room. So they get back to John's, he's not there. So at that point they're like, okay, let's go to the Albert family home.

Starting point is 00:13:09 Let's go see if we can find him or if we can see anything on the way. Maybe he was hit by a snow plow driver. Maybe something happened. So then they all drive back. Karen's not driving at that point. She's in the back seat. Carrie's the one driving. Freaking out.

Starting point is 00:13:22 Yeah, Karen's. Just freaking out. She's like, could I have hit him? Did I hit him? Trying to figure out what had happened. Okay, so then they get to the house, she sees her boyfriend in the snow, she tries to revive him, they call 911. Yes.

Starting point is 00:13:34 But nobody goes up to the house to ring the bell, including Karen. Including Karen, and nobody comes out of the house. To see what the hell is going on. Exactly. And there are sirens and things, and no one comes out? It was a blizzard, so the wind was, I guess, like howling and really loud,

Starting point is 00:13:53 and so they're saying they didn't really hear everything. But yeah, paramedics are coming. Karen, you can hear here in the body cam footage, she is just screaming, hysterical. So I personally don't know how you wouldn't be able to hear that right below, you know, a window in your front yard. But nobody came out.

Starting point is 00:14:08 They never went in and knocked on the door either, which is kind of odd. Maybe not for Karen, but certainly for the sister. I know if it was in front of my sister's house, I'd be like, somebody's dead. I need to go check on my sister, you know? Right. I mean, obviously. Or like when you call the police, check on people in the house. Is everybody okay?

Starting point is 00:14:24 You're right. Like, wouldn't you be freaked out if there's a dead body? Could everybody be dead in the house? Right, and what's so interesting is that when the police arrived and all of the first responders were on the scene, they never secured the crime scene. The police never went and knocked on the door to talk to anybody.

Starting point is 00:14:40 And when they started collecting evidence, they collected it in red Solo cups and stop and shop bags, like 7-Eleven type bags. Like nothing was secure from the get-go. It was just mishandled right from the jump. Okay, so we get to, like, then what happens? Why do they think that she did it? Because she says it out like in a panic?

Starting point is 00:15:02 Did I, I know there's like a lot of that, like right in the moment of being like, oh my God, did I back into him somehow? Did I not see him? Yeah, she was asking, you know, could I have hit him? Did I hit him? She had a cracked taillight, which then she pointed out to her friends.

Starting point is 00:15:15 She's like, could I have hit him? Look at my cracked taillight. Come to find out later when reviewing ring camera footage. There's actually footage of her when she's leaving John's house that morning going to look for him. She reverses and you can see her car hit his car that was parked and hit it with her the passenger side taillight so hard that his entire wheel starts moving and shaking. So that could have been when

Starting point is 00:15:37 she cracked the taillight when she reversed in, not from hitting him when he was you know out front of the house in the snow. But so they find him. He has cuts all over his arm, which we can get to in a minute, are not consistent with being hit by a car. He has a black eye, blunt force trauma on the back of his head. He's bleeding. And they say that his ultimate cause of death, I don't think they officially ruled it,

Starting point is 00:16:00 but they believe it was the blunt force trauma, and then he died of hypothermia in the snow. So after they start ruled it, but they believe it was the blunt force trauma and then he died of hypothermia in the snow. So after they start investigating everything, they end up arresting her for I believe the very first arrest, it was just for manslaughter. And then they ended up increasing the charges to second degree murder, manslaughter, and then leaving the scene of a crash that resulted in a death. So she first went to trial last spring. Did they ever at that point give her a breathalyzer?

Starting point is 00:16:28 I believe there's some conflicting information. What I had gathered when we first started covering this case about a year ago is that they tested her blood alcohol level, I want to say 24 hours later, maybe a little bit less than that. And at that point it was at a 0.08. This is all alleged, everybody, nobody freak out. But then when they were doing the math of what it would have been at midnight the night before, it would have been like a.19 to a.21 or something like that. But I believe all of it from what I've read of how many drinks they had. And I know from my sister being a criminal defense attorney that she has had clients that have gotten DUIs the next day, like going to get breakfast and things like that.

Starting point is 00:17:13 When you're that drunk, even if you slept and woke up and had a cup of coffee, you could still be kind of drunk. So yeah, I believe she was drunk driving for sure. But it's like, okay, so then we get to the trial, the first trial. And that's where they do put all these people from the party on the stand. And let's get into the juicy stuff that's confusing but juicy of their relationship, cheating, what is the thing that, where these crossover relationships happened

Starting point is 00:17:54 with these cops and her and everybody? So this is where it kind of all starts to fall apart is in this first trial because obviously at this point now the phones have been seized, they're doing, they're looking at everything as evidence and everybody's dirty laundry is on display. So Karen had been texting with another former, another officer, I believe, is he, he's a DEA agent?

Starting point is 00:18:13 I can't remember exactly. Brian Higgins. And they had been sending very flirtatious messages back and forth in the days leading up to when they all were at the bar that night, when they were all, you know, having drinks and things like that. And she and John had a little bit of, you know, not a toxic relationship, but they would have spats, they'd have issues.

Starting point is 00:18:31 They even fought the morning of them all going out and having drinks that night, but then they were fine and they all met up with friends. So these text messages get released, which shows that Brian Higgins was interested in Karen, that she had exchanged some flirtatious messages with him too, but then ghosted him a few days before the night in question. This episode of Juicy Scoop is sponsored by booking.com, booking.yeah. When it comes to planning travel, it's really

Starting point is 00:18:56 specific to what you need for that specific trip. So whether I'm going with the whole family and now I have young adults and maybe they're bringing a special someone. We need to find a place where we can all feel like we can get together but have our separate time alone. That's why I love Booking.com, Booking.yeah. Every time I use Booking.com to find a place to stay in the U.S., I know they'll have exactly what I'm looking for. They have a huge variety of options from hotels to vacation rentals and I'm always able to find something that fits my specific needs and my family's specific needs. I have found that booking.com has something for everyone. Maybe you have some teens that need to get out and do their own thing and you don't want to baby of a place.

Starting point is 00:19:39 You want to make sure that they can walk off and maybe go around the corner to shopping or get their own food. Booking.com has all of that. Find exactly what you're booking for on booking.com, booking.yeah. You guys know how much I love quints and spring is upon us. We've got into vacation mode and I love all my quints items.

Starting point is 00:20:02 I love my silk. I have these great silk dresses that roll up easy, look great, are perfect for summer and layering with some of their great cashmere sweaters. You know I love all of their stuff. And the best is Quince now has premium luggage options and stylish tote bags to carry it all. Their luggage is so great

Starting point is 00:20:22 and I just got a dark green carry-on bag and I'm feeling so chic as I go through the airport. By partnering directly with Top Factories, Quince cuts out the middleman and passes the savings on to us. So we love that and they only work with factories that use safe, ethical, responsible manufacturing practices. So for your next trip, treat yourself to the lux upgrades you deserve from Quince. Go to quince.com slash juicy for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's q u i n c e dot com slash juicy to get free shipping and 365 day returns quince.com slash juicy. Was Brian Higgins a completely single man when he was flirting with Karen? To my knowledge, yes.

Starting point is 00:21:05 Okay. Yeah. Continue. And he was at that house that night too and at the bars, all of that. So she ghosts him apparently a few days before and then they see each other at the bars and everybody in the footage, the CCTV footage from the bars, everybody looks happy, everybody's getting along. But there are some people out there who theorize that Brian didn't look very happy in the footage and that he kind of looked on edge.

Starting point is 00:21:27 So that's where then I think all of the conspiracies start to take flight of what really happened to John, who could have been responsible, was he maybe angry when they were all back at the house. Question. Of the flirty texts, to your knowledge, were they like... What was the guy that passed away? John O'Keefe. Okay, was it like anything about John, or was it just like you're cute too? Maybe we could talk, were there any like naked photos sent?

Starting point is 00:21:55 Like how deep was the flirtation? It wasn't like no sexting to my knowledge from what I had seen, no like bashing on John, more of like, oh yeah, you've caught my eye from the beginning, seen, no, like, bashing on John. More of like, oh, yeah, you've caught my eye from the beginning. Or like, little things like that. Not innocent, but like, not outright. Little fishing on both sides.

Starting point is 00:22:11 Yeah, exactly. Exactly. OK. OK, so then who else is the player? So then Jen McCabe also comes into the picture here. Which is her friend. This is her friend. Whose sister lives in the house.

Starting point is 00:22:21 Yes. And who are the owners of the house? The Albert family. OK. And is Mr. Albert a cop the owners of the house? The Albert family. OK. And is Mr. Albert a cop as well? Brian Albert is a former cop. OK. Yes.

Starting point is 00:22:30 And what's interesting is that Jen McCabe had a Google search at 2.27 in the morning that said, how long to die in the cold. How was incorrectly spelled. It was H-O-S. But she Googles this, and then John's body wasn't found until 6 a.m. So that, of course, when that got brought up in the trial, everybody's like, why would you be Googling that?

Starting point is 00:22:52 And what was her answer? That she really Googled it at six when they all were at the scene and when they were trying to make sense of what had happened and that Karen had said, like, Google, how long does it take to die in the cold? And that the reason it was time stamped at 2 27 is because you know how when you open your phone, there's like old browsers in your Safari or whatever.

Starting point is 00:23:11 She's like, I opened a browser from when I was searching something else at 2 27 and it just like triggered that. I think that's a pretty, that's something that if I was in jury, I'd be like, I can't say that that couldn't happen. I would say that I that couldn't happen. I would say that that seems somewhat reasonable. So let me ask you this then. If that is reasonable, would you ever search that

Starting point is 00:23:32 and then delete that search later? No. I don't even know how to delete a search. She deleted the search. It shows as deleted. I know. And then there were some more searches after that that did happen around 6 a.m. Okay so what were some more searches? Just like again like another

Starting point is 00:23:49 one of how long to die in the cold and some random things like that. From her or from other people? From her but that all aligned with the right timeline. But then there the 227 one is what stuck out. And what's also interesting with that is around that time period of 2 30 a.m. there were also two phone calls from Brian Higgins to Brian Albert, the homeowner of the house. And when they were questioned about this on the stand, they said they did not talk to each other that night, that they didn't make any phone calls. And their excuse was that they but dialed each other by accident. So they're saying we were all at the house.

Starting point is 00:24:23 And they said we never saw him, right? Yeah. They said he never arrived. And then what did Brian say? Oh, then I went home and then accidentally dialed him once I was home and in my bed. Well, so Brian didn't go home. He went to the police station to start like move some cars because it was the snowplow was going to come or something like that. While he's drunk. Yeah, and they were all drunk. All these cops were drinking and driving. I mean, it's insane.

Starting point is 00:24:52 So he goes, and I believe he went around to 130 to the station, give or take, to move these cars. He says that he never talked to anybody on the phone that night. He definitely didn't call Brian Albert. And he even testified to that under oath. I never called anybody. Since that first trial, there is now footage of him

Starting point is 00:25:08 outside of the police station at 1.30 on the phone. And so when the first calls were brought up, they explained it away being like, oh no, it was a butt dial. The homeowner, Brian Albert, said he was being intimate with his wife and that that triggered it, which is your phone in your pant. Like, I don't understand. Yeah, like the phone was on the bed and he rolled over while boning.

Starting point is 00:25:29 And then like his butt literally did hit the phone and then it was called him. And then the other guy just coincidentally butt dialed him back and then the phone call connected for 22 seconds. Got it. Yeah. And then what was the other part I remember about someone getting rid of their phone or their SIM card? And he's like, oh, I do that all the time as a DA agent or something.

Starting point is 00:25:50 So that was Brian Higgins, the same one who had the flirtatious messages, the same one who went to move the cars that night, who butt dialed. They were going to give him formal notice. Like, say, I forget what the exact dates were. But right now, if I was going to say, Heather, tomorrow, you're going to get formal notice from the police department, from all of us, that you cannot destroy your phone

Starting point is 00:26:09 because we're going to need to go through it as evidence. And today, you break the SIM card, you break the phone, you put it in a trash bag, you drive to a military base, and you put it in two different dumpsters. And then you explain it by saying, I'm a DEA agent. I have sensitive stuff on my phone. And so what he did admit to doing in two different dumpsters and all that stuff, why do you think he admitted to that then?

Starting point is 00:26:33 I don't know. I mean, maybe he had no other choice at that point. I'm not really sure. But like, and this is where it starts to get really sticky, because there's just so much reasonable doubt in this case because even if Karen was blackout drunk and hit John, what these people are doing isn't helping themselves in any way.

Starting point is 00:26:54 I mean, there's so much shadiness, all the way down to, again, the evidence collection, the Google search, the calls, all these things. And then during the first trial, there were experts, crash reconstruction experts, that testified that said the wounds on John's body were not consistent with a vehicle. There even were experts who said they looked more like dog bites, dog scratches. The homeowner owned a German shepherd who conveniently was rehomed three months after John's body was found. They also

Starting point is 00:27:21 redid their basement flooring allegedly. They sold their house under value. I mean there's just so many different things at this point that it seems people are covering up for one reason or another that it certainly makes you ask the question is she innocent or being framed or did she do this? So when everything came and then there was also something about like some other thing where there was a part of didn't they find like a piece of the tail light glass or something in or claimed to have found it in him? I believe there and they think that was planted or something.

Starting point is 00:27:58 The tail light in general it's alleged that it was planted because when they first arrived on the scene that morning at 6am they did two searches they did one when they first arrived and then they came back later that day and did another search where they used a leaf blower to move the snow and kind of get things around it and When they did that this is how much they were drinking to right John had a cocktail glass that he took with they took with Them from the bar and so when he was in the snow they found clear pieces of the cocktail glass on the snow, which is very difficult to see, right? But they were able to find that. They didn't see any red tail light, no pieces of tail light for two searches. Then Karen's car was brought into the Sallie Port for evidence. And this is a whole nother thing which I'll go into, but it was brought in later after that, hours later, when they

Starting point is 00:28:44 went back out for the third search with the cert team, they found pieces of tail light. So the allegation is, okay, well how did you not see it for two searches, but you found clear glass and you didn't see any red against the snow. So they think once her car was brought in, maybe they took a couple little pieces of the already broken tail light and threw that in the snow or said they got it from the snow. Yes. And part of the reason for that as well is because there's footage of her car in the Sallyport, which is where they were checking it all for evidence. And

Starting point is 00:29:11 they said, you know, you can see right here in this footage, nobody goes near her tail light. Nobody's trying to like mess with it. Nobody's shattering it more or taking pieces. It's right here in the footage. But then upon closer look, the footage was completely inverted, mirrored. So it was as if you were actually looking at the driver's side tail light, not the passenger. And when you look closer on the opposite side of the car, you could see somebody next to the passenger tail light.

Starting point is 00:29:39 Oh, wow. There's just so much shadiness. So OK, so the first trial, they go into deliberation and how quickly do they come back and say, we cannot, it's a mistrial, we need to do this again? So the jury came back, I can't remember if it was two or three times to the judge saying like, we cannot agree unanimously. And the judge kept, Judge Bev kept sending them back saying- And what was their thing to either say,

Starting point is 00:30:06 manslaughter or second degree or innocent? What was the choices? So the total charges were a second degree murder, manslaughter, and then leaving the scene of a crash that resulted in a death. And just to remind people, like, second degree is you killed them, but you didn't plan it. Yes.

Starting point is 00:30:22 It wasn't premeditated. And then manslaughter is like you were driving and you accidentally hit someone. And then what was the last, or innocent. Yeah, and she had the charge of leaving the scene of a crash that resulted in a death. The problem was, apparently it wasn't communicated to the jury that all of these charges

Starting point is 00:30:42 could have individual verdicts. And they all were under the impression it had to be unanimous on all of these charges could have individual verdicts. And they all were under the impression it had to be unanimous on all of them. So they kept coming back, but she kept pushing back, saying you guys have to come with a verdict. The judge? Yeah, they finally come back, they're like, we can't. And so it's declared a mistrial.

Starting point is 00:30:56 After it was announced that it was a mistrial, jurors started coming forward saying, well, no, we all unanimously agreed that she was not guilty of second degree murder being the highest charge. And one of the other charges, I think it must have been, was it leaving the scene or manslaughter? I can't remember now.

Starting point is 00:31:13 But they had said, we agreed that. Like, unanimously, she was not. But because it was never announced as a verdict and read into record, technically, it doesn't count. And they said they were never clear on the instructions that they could even do that. It wasn't told to them in that way. So everybody when that came out was like, there's no way they're going to do a retrial then at this point. Sure enough, the state announced though, that they planned to retry

Starting point is 00:31:36 her. And that's what is now beginning this week. And with this retrial, there's some things that I have seen that the judge is not allowing that I think will hurt Karen's case. Like, isn't it that they can't bring up all these people? Do you know where we are in that? Yeah, there's been some conversation about not allowing the ARCA experts, the reconstruction team, their testimony back in. But as of what I heard most recently, it looks like they are going to be allowed in, but she needs to meet with them sidebar first and see what their report was.

Starting point is 00:32:09 Yeah, before she allows it in. But because there was like money exchange, the state is saying that they've now like colluded and that they have more of a personal relationship. And so they're trying to pull those experts out. They also have said that they can't bring in the third party defense during opening statements, which they already had opening statements. And the third party defense is somebody in the house. Yeah, somebody else did. So now they're saying they can't or they will bring it up? They can bring it up during the trial itself, but not during opening statements, which we

Starting point is 00:32:39 already had opening statements on Tuesday, and they obviously didn't bring that up. Okay, so that's not that bad. No. And I mean, how do they find a jury that isn't aware of this from the media already? It took them a lot of time to get the jury, I think over about two weeks to finally seat the full jury. And I mean, out front of that courthouse, there are hundreds of people every single day

Starting point is 00:33:01 with signs, shirts, saying, free Karen Reed. She didn't do this or certainly there's not enough evidence to convict her, so much so that the judge had to issue a 200 foot buffer zone from the courthouse because it was becoming such a circus out there. And so there wasn't there recently a show or documentary and she was interviewed in that. Yeah, Body in the Snow.

Starting point is 00:33:24 And what was your opinion of that? Was that good for her defense? Or what do you think? I personally don't think that it, I don't think it hurt her in any way. I think a lot of people were like, why would she do this when she still is going to be going on trial?

Starting point is 00:33:39 Especially because she has a little bit of a bold, abrasive personality. But I think it kind of just, to me at least, showed her conviction in the fact of her saying, I didn't do this. Let me lay it all out for you. Let me walk you through it. And I think they did a really good job showing that.

Starting point is 00:33:53 And clearly so, because now it's taken social media by storm. And everybody is following this case and interested in what's going on. And even when I do polls on my podcast and on YouTube, right now it's at like 95% think that she's innocent. So I don't know what's going on and even when I do polls on my podcast and on YouTube, right now it's at like 95% think that she's innocent. So I don't know what's gonna happen. But it's scheduled to go on for eight weeks.

Starting point is 00:34:12 And if she was convicted of let's just say the least thing, the manslaughter, do you know what she would be looking at? What kind of time? I don't know the exact time. I would imagine, I mean maybe a few years, I don't know what exact time. I would imagine, I mean, maybe a few years. I don't know what the exact time would be. Was she ever presented with like, okay, you completed this and we don't have to go to trial?

Starting point is 00:34:31 And she was like, fuck no. Not to my knowledge. Yeah. Yeah, because it's, I think they, you know, there's people in the town that have written, you know, and been like, yeah, this is like a problem with, you know, corrupt and, you know, something went down, let's take it to the grave, let with, you know, corrupt and, you know, something went down, let's take it to the grave.

Starting point is 00:34:46 Let's, you know. So where does it leave with the two friends that were originally in the car, one being the friend of the homeowner? Does she not talk to those girls anymore? Like, where is that? Well, Karen doesn't talk to any of them, but they all are still friendly with each other.

Starting point is 00:35:01 One of them, Carrie, was actually testifying today and was on the stand. But another piece that I didn't even bring up. For defense or prosecution? For the prosecution and then on cross. OK. But one of the things that's so major in this case, too, is the lead investigator of the case, Michael Proctor.

Starting point is 00:35:17 He was a state trooper. He was the lead investigator. He has since been fired for misconduct during this investigation, not during anything else, but during the Karen Reed case. His text messages were pulled to where he called her SCU next Tuesday, said she should off herself,

Starting point is 00:35:33 said he was looking for nudes in her phone or like didn't come across any nudes yet and like just fully disgraced. And so he hadn't been fired during the first trial since that first trial, he now has been fired. So that's what the defense brought up in opening statements, too. They're like, the state's not even mentioning Michael Proctor.

Starting point is 00:35:50 He was their lead investigator, the state trooper. He's not even a part of the force anymore because of how poorly he handled this particular investigation and the colluding and the cover-up and everything that went in with it. And so I think that's going gonna be a huge win for her this go-around, because once the jury hears that, they're gonna be like,

Starting point is 00:36:08 the lead investigator got fired for misconduct on this case. This episode of Juicy Scoop is brought to you by Legacy Box. You guys know that I recently moved and I found old videos, like the first time I did standup, lots of great photos, of course. And I got Legacy Box and it made it so easy and I want to share with you how simple it is. All I did was put those items in the Legacy Box, send it out, it's so affordable, they've thought of everything, and just to preserve your

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Starting point is 00:39:37 for details. I know getting your hands on Ozempic or Rogovie might be difficult. You don't know where to start. And it can be a big hassle. Maybe you're negotiating with your insurance provider. Will they cover it? Where do I go for it?

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Starting point is 00:40:51 from what I remember, which intrigued me, was it sounds like he might've had some infidelity, the victim, and then so maybe this was her, kind of getting back at him. There was also some talk of, you know, she was a professor, he was a cop, so there's like that little weird like Boston townie kind of a thing where like she wouldn't necessarily be in this group of like cops. So maybe she was slightly the outsider.

Starting point is 00:41:24 Have you heard any of that? I haven't heard much of that, but I could definitely see that. And they did have a fight on a vacation that they went on around, I believe it was a New Year's Eve vacation prior to this happening. So like a month before, a little less than a month.

Starting point is 00:41:37 So I, and she was getting jealous on this vacation. So I could see where maybe she was trying to like poke the bear a little bit or see what her options were. Or just see if like, you know, an elf flirt with you. What, is her attention change yet? Yeah, whatever. So now with all that being said, I'm gonna tell you what my theory is, okay?

Starting point is 00:42:00 Because there's a few. There's, he goes in and starts talking whatever and you know yeah she's like pissed like hello I'm your girlfriend sitting out here in the fucking cold like I don't you know are we really invited to this party one of those things like come back to the house then you get to like the third location and you're like do we want to keep going just go in and see and so enough time goes by or maybe not much time at all and she just starts to go oh I don't even want to keep going, just go in and see. And so enough time goes by or maybe not much time at all. And she just starts to go, oh, I don't even want to go in there. He's not even coming out and checking on me. So it could, I think she could have maybe only waited like three minutes, you know? And so then there's a couple of things that could happen. Either he did

Starting point is 00:42:39 get in an argument with somebody, you know, and get hit, whatever, and die, and they threw him out there. Or he may have been hit and stumbled out there to see if she was still there and then saw the car wasn't there and slipped and hit his head on the snow and didn't get up. And the people in the house didn't know that he was dead, didn't cover it up. The other part is, was he also attacked by the dog? And that's why he had the marks on his hand and again then walked out to see like where she was or whatever. I will say one of the biggest theories that I have seen out there from everybody who's been following this case and it's all alleged but's out there, is that Colin Albert, the nephew of the homeowner, was at that house.

Starting point is 00:43:30 And that he- How old is he? Oh, gosh. Roughly. I think early 30s, maybe late 20s. Okay, not a kid. No, not a kid. Okay. But maybe a little younger. And so I've heard that he had issues with John for reasons which I will not get into just because again it's all alleged. Well what is it? Just alleged.

Starting point is 00:43:50 That he's a drug dealer and that John was kind of onto his onto that. The nephew might have been telling you John might have known. And so that when they got when John got to that house that Colin didn't know that he was coming over. So then that was an altercation when he saw him. And the reason people suspect that too is because Colin had all of these scrapes and blood all over his knuckles. And he says that it's from falling in the ice or on the ice rather. So the defense was going to bring Colin's name up as a third party defense.

Starting point is 00:44:23 But then the judge ruled that there wasn that there was insufficient evidence to name him, specifically him, as a third party defense. But a lot of people believed that he had some involvement. And then because he is a little bit on the younger side and he's the nephew that all of these people are trying to protect another cop's family member. With the dog scratches and bites or whatever, can't they have, can't they figure it out if that's canine teeth or paw scratches versus a woman's scratch? So they did have an expert from the defense who said that it was consistent with claw marks and dog bites. They tested the dog bites and

Starting point is 00:44:58 it did not show dog DNA but it did show pig DNA which was kind of like why the hell would this guy have pig DNA on him? And so while it's unclear why, a lot of people are like, oh, well think of like the pig ears that you give to a German shepherd or like treats and things like that. But then the dog was rehomed. So any further testing or like impressions

Starting point is 00:45:17 or anything like that. Can't they find the dog? I don't know how you, maybe, I don't know. I don't know where he got rehomed. Or she, sorry Chloe. Or they just decided, or maybe even the defense was like, let's just throw it out there, but because if it doesn't match.

Starting point is 00:45:29 It's enough reasonable doubt. Right, if it doesn't match, then what do we do if it doesn't match? And that's maybe not how we wanna. Do you have any idea how she's paying for this defense? They've started raising a lot of money. I believe most of her team is working pro bono at this point, but they do have a defense fund, which when I saw yesterday, it was like over 800 grand at this point.

Starting point is 00:45:49 Wow. So, you know, the other thing is, it still is possible. I mean, it still is possible. Or do you think it's not possible that she accidentally backed up? Like he came out, she was like, oh, fuck this, didn't see him come out, backed up, hit him, and then left. I think it's definitely possible. Could it be possible that he went in there, had this altercation with a fucking crazy dog, and nobody else, and was like,

Starting point is 00:46:19 went, was like, fuck it, I'm not staying here, what the fuck, take care of your dog next time, walked out, and just as he was walking out, she had lost her patience and still hit him. Maybe, but I guess my hangup with that is that it would make sense because of how much she had been drinking and to not remember it. But with the injuries not being consistent

Starting point is 00:46:41 with being hit by a vehicle, I don't know how you would explain that. Like the punched eye. Yeah, it's like the black eye, the blunt force trauma on the back of his head, the stuff on his arm not being consistent. The blunt force trauma on the back of the head, I do think could be consistent with being hit

Starting point is 00:46:54 and going fast down on the back of hard ice. Like flying. Yeah, or a driveway or whatever. But the black eye, and then sometimes, yeah And then sometimes, when I fainted on stage, like within 24 hours, I had two black eyes. And I was like, oh my, why do I have black eyes? I didn't fall on my face. And they said, when you hit your head really hard,

Starting point is 00:47:20 it can happen. So sometimes like you, you know, or like, I was like, oh, I wonder, you know, so then I was like, that kind of makes sense. But if there was, were there two, were there one? I think two, I mean, when I had first heard about this case, in my mind, I was like, well, what if she had dropped him off and he was like bending over to like grabs,

Starting point is 00:47:38 he dropped something and he was bending something, bending over and like she hit him while he was bent over and that's what hit his head. Or like, that's why there wasn't anything to his body here because the impact was on his head possibly. But I don't know, I think there's a lot of possibilities but I think there's too much reasonable doubt.

Starting point is 00:47:56 As a juror, I would be like, there's just not enough for me to put this girl away. Exactly. There's just too, it's beyond a reasonable doubt and there's so much doubt. There's so much doubt. I think I would come back with just driving under the influence, because she basically admitted to that.

Starting point is 00:48:15 Yeah. I mean. I don't know. Can you, I guess you can charge somebody after the fact with that, wouldn't you be? I don't know. Maybe you can at that point. I don't know. I mean, she's obviously you can at that point. I don't know. I mean, she's obviously suffered enough.

Starting point is 00:48:28 She never, she always was out on bail. It wasn't like she had to like stay in jail during this time, right? No. I do think she kind of likes the limelight and there's nothing wrong with that. I think so too. I think that she's gained so much support from the public

Starting point is 00:48:43 that she does like that. And I think she likes her voice being heard. I think the defense team's like that as well. How soon if she gets off that she starts a podcast? I think it's about a 99% chance. You know what? She actually is already doing what? No, I'm just kidding. Probably.

Starting point is 00:49:01 Maybe her co-host could be Gypsy Rose. Oh, my god. Who else? Definitely a podcast or like a TV special, something. I mean there's already TV specials in work. Right. What about The Real Housewives of Boston? That would be a good one.

Starting point is 00:49:15 Could she be on that? I think, well I mean, she's definitely, if she gets out of this, she is going to be like the leper in Boston, like because all of Boston's police force is like against her. Yeah, but what about all these people that are for her? Yeah. I don't know. This is what they're going to do. They're going to cast Real Housewives of Boston.

Starting point is 00:49:33 She's going to be on it. And then there's also going to be a woman who's, it won't be her current husband, but her ex-husband was a cop. And so they kind of form an alliance. But then there's another woman that, you know, is an attorney and she's like, you know, but now she wasn't, she's an attorney, but now she's like, it's a lot easier being an influencer. So I'm going to be an influencer, but she says little snide remarks about legal things and we're off to the races. You're welcome, Andy Cohen.

Starting point is 00:50:05 I also like it for a Lifetime movie. For a movie? Yeah, but if we... Come on. We need a Boston Real Housewives franchise for sure. Get rid of New York. Go to Boston. And there you go.

Starting point is 00:50:16 Could be real good. Well, okay, so the trial just started. Do we have any idea how long, any prediction of how many days this might be or anything? It's slated to be about eight weeks. Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay. God, I mean, it's pretty terrifying because traditionally, in my experience and my knowledge,

Starting point is 00:50:39 is a mistrial reach, like another second trial, seems to benefit the prosecution. It does. Statistically, if it goes to second trial, it benefits the prosecution. But I will say opening statements is usually what impacts the jury the most. And the opening statements this week, the defense crushed it. And the state was like, so boring.

Starting point is 00:51:02 They did it from a paramedic's point of view. It was just not engaging, not compelling. And then the defense came out swinging to where if I was on the jury hearing those opening statements. What was the, in a nutshell, what was the defense opening statement? Pointing out all of the inconsistencies,

Starting point is 00:51:16 the Google search, the phone being destroyed, Michael Proctor being dismissed and fired for the misconduct, all of these different things. The experts who had testified that it wasn't a collision that caused the injuries. I mean, just everything in a nutshell summarized, almost like the reel that you saw on my Instagram. And they just came out swinging,

Starting point is 00:51:37 and it was such a rock-solid opening statement. Great. Do you think that it would be a different fascination if she wasn't an attractive brunette? I think she wasn't attractive. I think it would still be fascinating because from what I like, I feel like a lot of the public doesn't like her because of her attitude. That's what I'm saying. It can be both. It can be both. Like I've asked my sister, you know, you know, how much goes into telling your client what to wear or how much makeup to wear, you know? And one thing she specifically said,

Starting point is 00:52:12 like yeah, like big blown up lips and stuff like that, it's not good. Yeah. Well yeah, remember- Like not good. Remember Jodi Arias and she put on like the little glasses and she tried to like sex herself down a lot. Right.

Starting point is 00:52:26 And then, yeah, or, you know, the Menendez brothers, you know, second trial or something. The sweater. Yeah, doing the, or no, I think the first trial they did the sweaters and the second trial they didn't or something because they were like, you're too old for the sweaters. But like, yeah, you wanted them, you want to feel sorry for them. I mean, it all makes sense, but like downplaying her looks or putting someone in a suit that's, you know, a gang member or whatever, it all goes with it.

Starting point is 00:52:53 It appears like she's, you know, just staying consistent to like her style and look as what she was before. Yeah, she's in blazers, like sheath dresses, yeah, just buttoned up and professional. Right, and, but it's not like she's, do you think there's any, like, I wonder if anyone's giving her clothes? Maybe, I haven't seen any, but I'm sure. I mean, if I like work for Theory or something,

Starting point is 00:53:14 I'd be like, okay. Tag me. Yeah, or like, you know, why not? Like, I mean, you're gonna get a lot more out of that than just sending it to some, you know, little twat on TikTok that's gonna dance around in it. Like, you know what I mean? This is a great looking blazer that you can get for $82 or whatever.

Starting point is 00:53:32 Market to the millennials and the Gen Xers, I get it. Moving on to another crime. Give us the latest. This says, judge permits bushy eyebrow testimony in the Idaho quadruple murder trial. Where are we with the horrible quadruple murder trial of the Idaho college students that were stabbed and butchered to death by possibly this guy, Brian? Yeah, Brian Koberger.

Starting point is 00:54:01 So the trial is scheduled to start in August of this year. Right now, they had had a gag order on the case, but now with all these pre-trial motions being filed, we're starting to get a little bit of a glimpse into what evidence they have, what's happened. So it started a few weeks ago with the 911 call finally being released, which everybody, of course, had been giving the roommates ship for because they waited, what was it, seven hours to call 911.

Starting point is 00:54:23 So we hear that call. We also started... And what. So we hear that call. We also start- And what is your understanding of that call? Because I mean, I remember when it went down and I remember I was at a party with a mom whose daughter was friends with one of the girls. One of the girl, the girl that that one of the two girls that survived. And you know how much they were going through and how horrible it was.

Starting point is 00:54:53 And I was like, what was it? And I remember back then it was like, they, you know, they heard something and then just like hoped that it wasn't anything big deal and went to bed and was drunk and didn't want to be nosy or interrupt or whatever. And then, so then I was always confused with, they were too scared to go upstairs, so they called a guy that lived across the street and it was he? What was that 911 call? Explain what now your understanding is. They kind of, they were all together.

Starting point is 00:55:26 It was the two surviving roommates and then the guy, Hunter. And I don't know if he lived across the street or where exactly he lived, but he did come over. And so the 911 call is pretty chaotic when you listen because they're passing the phone around to each other. They obviously are terrified as they're like realizing what's happening.

Starting point is 00:55:42 But the way it's laid out, and Kaylee's father has even spoken out on this after the fact, Kaylee's one of the victims, that the girls weren't going into any of the rooms and seeing what happened. And there's a part in the call in which you can hear Hunter where it sounds like he opens the door and finally, because one of the bodies was against the door

Starting point is 00:56:02 for Zana and Ethan in that room, and that he sees what happened. and you can hear his voice trembling and him yelling at the girls get out get out of here because he's does he's trying to shield them he doesn't want them to see it so you hear the call where they're like we're trying to figure out what's going on she's not breathing she's passed out but there's still some confusion as did they not see any blood did they were they not getting into the room How did they know she was passed out? Were they trying to get in and they could only see

Starting point is 00:56:27 maybe like a crack through it? Or was it because they were banging and like she wasn't coming to the door and so they were assuming she was passed out? Because they haven't testified yet, we don't know all of that information. So everybody's ripping this 911 call apart trying to say, how would they not smell the blood?

Starting point is 00:56:45 How would they not see any blood? Why would they have waited that long to call? But in my opinion, after hearing a lot of 911 calls, you can hear the sheer terror in their voices. So when they were calling each other because they're like, I saw something that's freaky. They were texting each other. Texting. Do you think it was just, you know, they were drunk too. And they were like, this is weird, this is freaky.

Starting point is 00:57:06 And then just passed out, fell asleep, and then didn't wake up till 10? Well, they did wake up earlier because now their phone activity has been released and they woke up as early as 7 a.m. And they were on Instagram, on Snapchat, calling their, like, a phone call out to a parent. Like, nothing major, but definitely phone activity.

Starting point is 00:57:27 My, just going back to my early 20s, I think they were probably out wasted that night. They come home, they did text each other that they saw someone and they were like, it's, I'm freaked out, it looked like he was wearing some sort of ski mask or something like that. But then again, they had so many people coming in and out of that house at any given moment.

Starting point is 00:57:45 So I could see where if you're wasted, you're like trying to make sense of it and almost being like, I'm not going to call the police or I'm not going to freak out. They tried calling, I believe, the surviving roommates. They didn't answer. But then just being like, I'm probably overreacting. I'm just drunk.

Starting point is 00:57:59 I'm going to pass out or I'm going to go to bed. Then when they wake up in the morning, whether they're still a little high or drunk or whatever it is or hungover, that you're just rotting in bed. You're sitting there going on social media, checking your DMs, looking at your Snap history, not thinking, being like, oh, I overreacted last night

Starting point is 00:58:18 and not thinking I need to get out there and check what's going on. But then when they finally wake up and start moving out and going into the house, they realize that something's wrong. They bring the friend over. Because it's so quiet up there. Exactly. They're probably yelling hello.

Starting point is 00:58:30 They're probably called them. They're probably like, hello, hello. And then they invite the guy over. Yeah. Yeah. Which there's this whole group now, I will say, in the past probably 14 months, I feel like everybody was pretty much in the camp,

Starting point is 00:58:44 although he hasn't gone to trial, and it's all alleged, that Brian Coburger was the guy. Over the past 14 months, there has been a significant shift where there's this whole group of people out there, they now, they call themselves, or they've been dubbed the Pro Burgers because of his last name, where they believe he's innocent,

Starting point is 00:59:02 that he's being framed by law enforcement, that it goes deeper into like drugs and this and that because some of the victims' families were involved with drugs and things like that. And so I don't put much weight into those theories, especially now given that his Amazon history has been released. And what is that about? It shows that he bought a K-Bar knife, that he bought a knife sharpener, that he bought the sheath, that they were delivered to, under his name, delivered to him but at his parents' house in

Starting point is 00:59:29 Pennsylvania. But that was, you know, months and months before the murders happened. Then his browser history allegedly shows that after the murders, he went back to those listings, maybe to repurchase them because he realized he lost the sheath or to see if it was gonna be. In his history, I think there was even recently, it came out that he had tried to delete some of the purchase history as well, which I've never deleted a purchase in my Amazon history ever.

Starting point is 00:59:57 So documents also show that his phone pinged on the towers near the house in the months leading up to the crimes in late night hours as though he was stalking and casing it. So, a lot of things, in my opinion, that point to this being the guy. But there are a lot of people out there now who say he's innocent, and I think they're kind of further bolstering that theory based on the questionable activity from the surviving roommates, the delay in the 911 call, which, how?

Starting point is 01:00:26 Horrible. Oh, you know, that's one thing that always, being a true crime fanatic is, you know, when they suspect the husband, when they suspect the wife, and you know, you get this cop and it was like, it was a small town, whatever, and the cop's like 30. And he's like, I thought the behavior was strange. I'm like, really, how many murders,

Starting point is 01:00:48 how many cases have you been on where a woman slipped or drowned in the bathtub and the husband wasn't hysterically crying? Like, what are you comparing it to? Who is to say how you're supposed to act when your dog dies, when your grandma who's a hundred dies versus my wife died but I have kids in the house and I'm just hasn't even hit me yet.

Starting point is 01:01:13 Like all those things and there's been so many times where like you know a mom was there was a famous case of a mom they thought that she killed her kids on a couch, stabbed them, and she said someone must have come in and stabbed them. And I don't know, you know, she's where it is, but there was, you know, she was always claimed her innocence. And when it was the kids' birthdays, she went to their graves with somebody and she sprayed silly spray. Oh, Darlie. Darlie, and was like laughing. And that clip was all over the news, being like she's laughing and having fun.

Starting point is 01:01:53 And it's like, well, her kids are dead. They loved silly string. That was, she went to their grave. Had they been cremated, then she wouldn't have had that moment. If, and then someone would have been like, why would you cremate? It's just all those kind of things. So it's like, and to think that these girls,

Starting point is 01:02:12 like what I heard about the girls, and I believe like one, maybe you don't know, did they both leave the school, I would assume. I mean, how could you stay at the school? How could you, I mean- I would think so. I think there's just so much PTSD and survivors. Yes, I mean, imagine like,

Starting point is 01:02:29 how are you supposed to deal with this? I mean, you know- And they're just getting ripped apart. I mean, there's survivor guilt and, you know, people that were in the sorority house of Ted Bundy that like lived or was next door and weren't attacked. Like the fact that it's just, maybe they didn't live. I don't know, but I know there's people that were there.

Starting point is 01:02:50 And it's just, yeah, you can't, that part sucks. And the thing about the Ted Bundy sorority victims that maybe they were in the house and lived, they didn't have to open their Facebook and see that there's a new group forming. Like they didn't have to see all this stuff and just be scrolling and see us possibly talking about it or whatever.

Starting point is 01:03:13 And that part I just think is like horrible. Now what is this bushy eyebrow thing? So Dylan, one of the surviving roommates, the one who saw him in the hallway that night, said that all she, to her recollection, when she was giving her statement, all she could recall saying was bushy eyebrows. That was her term.

Starting point is 01:03:32 So now they were trying to get that stricken so that they couldn't bring that up. The defense. Yes. And they're allowing it because it's what she saw. It was her testimony. And what's so interesting too is he took a selfie. What was it?

Starting point is 01:03:46 At 10 31 in the morning after the murders. So. Brian did. Yes, Brian did. Where he's kind of, he's in front of a shower curtain in his bathroom. He's kind of like smirking, giving a thumbs up. And people are wondering like, is this like a proud moment?

Starting point is 01:03:59 Why was he taking this selfie? Did he, did he have like, was he done cleaning up? What had happened? So they're saying that the importance of that selfie needs to be admitted as well because his eyebrows in the selfie look bushy, which then ties back to what Dylan had said, whereas now of course he's probably more groomed and trimmed and making sure he doesn't have bushy eyebrows. Do you know if they have collected any, like, hair that is his or anything?

Starting point is 01:04:24 They just have the touch DNA that was on the button of the sheath. They there hasn't been anything else released. The state feels very confident in their case. So I would imagine we will find out more. But as of right now, it's only that piece of touch. And where do his parents stand? Because I know he was in the car with his dad when they pulled him over and arrested him, right?

Starting point is 01:04:47 No, that was— What was the story that— They were going on a cross-country trip back to Pennsylvania, and they got stopped for a traffic violation. Oh, and they had that cam footage, but they didn't know it was him yet, right? No. Oh. But then they started watching the parents' house while he was there in Pennsylvania, and

Starting point is 01:05:03 that's when he was throwing things away in the neighbors' bins, putting things into Ziploc bags, wearing gloves, detailing the car. So that's the whole time when we were like, who did it? Who did it? Who did it? And they were like, these cops don't know. These are Keystone cops, or they don't know what they're doing.

Starting point is 01:05:20 That's another thing I think people don't realize, that they have to keep their cards close to them. They can't share all this stuff because there's so many sleuths, there's so many content creators, real reporters, people that are doing their own reporting, which I love too, but that can screw up that investigation.

Starting point is 01:05:40 So they were on to him pretty quickly, weren't they? I think it was within a few weeks after the murders, yeah. They started figuring things out, and they had pulled different traffic cams and things like that and started piecing it all together. And saw the white car, yeah. And so we don't know where his parents stand. Are they... They're in his corner. Oh, they are?

Starting point is 01:06:02 They are. Are they paying for the defense? I don't know. I think... I want to say that she's a public defender, they are? They are. Are they paying for the defense? I don't know. I want to say that she's a public defender, if I'm not mistaken. I could be wrong. I'd have to double check on that. And Taylor.

Starting point is 01:06:12 But what's interesting is they're supportive of him. They want to be there at the trial. And one of the hearings and motions that's been filed recently has been because the state is listing his parents on the witness list, which would then mean that they can't sit through the trial until they go and testify so that their testimony won't be tainted in any way and so that they you know just to keep it pure. So now they're the judge has ruled okay you can have

Starting point is 01:06:37 them on the witness list but you need to put them like earlier at the trial so that then they can be there for support of Brian for the balance or for the majority of it. What I always think is so crazy that you know I've asked about it I don't know that anybody else has really asked about it but when I had Kim Goldman, sister of Ron Goldman, I said you know I've never really interviewed someone that's been in such a like a high-profile trial for so long. I'm like, did you ever find yourself in the bathroom with like OJ's daughter?

Starting point is 01:07:07 And she's like, yes. Oh my gosh. Like it just, that's what I can imagine. Like they're at this courthouse. Like his parents, his mom might be in the ladies room with one of the victims' mothers. Or even the surviving roommate. Right. Right.

Starting point is 01:07:25 Yep. I know, it's weird to think about. It's just so, ugh. So he's saying I'm innocent. He's saying he's innocent. They've also now requested that the words sociopath and psychopath not be used during the trial, which because it's technically a medical diagnosis,

Starting point is 01:07:44 they did agree to that. So they said he can be referred to as a murderer because that's what he's been charged with, but they can't use the other terms. They also have what else is going on with that. They are bringing in his autism diagnosis as a factor. Who's bringing it in? The defense is bringing it in to explain his social behavior. Why he's odd. Well, I think that's a good, I would use everything too. I think they're going to use everything they possibly can. Yeah, socially awkward and this and that,

Starting point is 01:08:13 and strange or being obsessed or about one thing or another. Just to put any kind of doubt, but it sounds like the physical evidence is what's going to seal the deal. The DNA is the biggest piece of actual physical evidence that they have. Everything else is pretty circumstantial. However, it's a lot of stuff that is circumstantial, like the phone pings, the car. One of the things too that people thought early on was that there was a particular target

Starting point is 01:08:40 in the house. That was my personal opinion. It still is to this day. I think that one of the girls upstairs was the target, which I don't know if she said it. And wasn't that the girl, like, wasn't there, she worked at a Greek restaurant and he also frequented the Greek restaurant? Yeah. So there was speculation that that's how he first was, you know, became fixated or saw her and was exposed to her. Then there was talk of him following her on Instagram

Starting point is 01:09:03 and things like that. But now experts have said that they've gone through all the digital and forensic information that there's no digital connection to him or any of the victims. Which that of course doesn't mean anything, right? Pete usually good serial killers or murderers in general wouldn't have a connection. They would pick a random target in a lot of cases. So I don't think that that necessarily means anything, but they have scraped Venmo history, social media, any sort of digital footprint where he could have had any connection to them, and they're saying that there is no known connection. Yeah, but I do think that helps the defense because I think people always want to know why. Right, the motive. You know, if they believe that a man killed his wife, it's because he had a girlfriend that he wanted to live with. She killed her husband

Starting point is 01:09:49 because there was a two million dollar insurance. Like, people need, like the defense needs a reason why. And just to say, oh he was fascinated with, you know, murder and killing and, I mean, look at us. I know. Well, like, I mean, we're fascinated with it. Does it mean that we're gonna try it? Like, I mean look at us. I know. Like I mean we're fascinated with it, does it mean that we're gonna try it? Like I mean, I'm just, I like to always just kind of think like we'll, you know. I think the argument is that because he was a criminology student, that he studied it,

Starting point is 01:10:19 he did that big thesis with convicted murderers that he wanted to see if he could get away with it. And my belief is that he went into that house with the intention of killing one person, was surprised that the friend was in bed, came downstairs. I do too. She had her friend spend the night in a room.

Starting point is 01:10:34 Yep, in bed with her. He goes downstairs. He didn't expect anybody else to be awake. Xana was still awake. She was active on TikTok. She had ordered DoorDash. I think that spooked him. He was kind of then doing this frenzy killing, in just my opinion. But I don't think he went into that house, if it was him. I don't think he went into that house expecting to kill four people that night.

Starting point is 01:10:58 So do you think he did know her then? And targeted her? I think that maybe there's no digital connection, but I think that I believe he was targeting Maddie. It was not a random thing. Because he was, if you believe that it's him in the car, the car was hadn't the car come around prior to that night? Yeah, for like a couple of months leading up to the murders, it had gone around I think 23 times in total, it had pinged in the area between the hours of like 10 and one or something like that. And then the morning of the murders,

Starting point is 01:11:31 it came in, kind of went in through the back roads and that like they had been in that area before. I mean, also a common defense and this is always gonna be, you know, this town needed to find someone because otherwise they are gonna be walking on eggshells and scared. And so their marching orders were to find somebody.

Starting point is 01:11:54 I believe he did it as well. I feel like that, but those are all the things that we're probably gonna hear from the defense. Yeah. Wow, okay. Okay, Lori Vallow, world's worst mother. So she was representing herself in the crime of her husband who was shot and killed when he came to pick up his children for an exchange. So it was her ex-husband and he

Starting point is 01:12:24 was shot and killed by the brother who claimed that he had hit him with a baseball bat, though there was like barely a scratch on his head. And a baseball bat would have probably possibly killed you. So she is in Arizona and decides, because that's where the crime was, she's going to represent herself.

Starting point is 01:12:44 Which when I talked about this briefly before, I was like, you know what? I kind of can't blame her. No, it's like a field trip. Right, and it's like, you're already, she's sentenced to life, right? Yeah, mm-hmm. So, fine.

Starting point is 01:12:57 What do you have to lose? Yeah. And so, what did, so I, she, she did, they did reach a verdict. Yes. How short was the deliberation? So what did you, so I, she, she did, they did reach a verdict. Yes. How short was the deliberation? I think three hours.

Starting point is 01:13:09 And it's also because they had like a mandated lunch break, I think. So I think it was like, it was pretty quick. I don't think there was a doubt in anybody's mind that she was guilty. And so what did you gather from this? I mean, I didn't really watch it, but people were like, Heather, you have to watch to watch it It's like she's playing a lawyer. The questions are so

Starting point is 01:13:29 Bizarre she is such a fucking loony tune like watching it It's it would be comical if it wasn't so offensive Yeah, right And but yeah when one of the women who Charles her former husband had gone on a date with when she took the stand Lori was crossing her cross her, asking her questions, like, so you guys were on a date and just talking about me the whole time? She was more concerned with things like that.

Starting point is 01:13:53 Even when a family member took the stand, she's like, will you remember all of the green enchiladas that I made for all the family gatherings? Like, it's just so detached from reality of what's happening. And she had her lawyer speak like she was, knew some vocabulary to throw out there, but she was not good. Didn't and didn't even do a closing argument.

Starting point is 01:14:16 I mean, you know, obviously it's never a good idea. Like I was even thinking like, will Brian from Idaho murder crime, the suspect, will he take the stand? And it always seems like they rarely ever want their client to take the stand because they could cross examine and everything. But I always think as a juror or whatever, or I always think if I was Karen Reed, if I was... But the thing with the Karen Reed case is like, because there was this fogginess,

Starting point is 01:14:49 it's like, okay, like let's say I, my husband, I woke up and my husband was dead next to me or whatever. And they were like, Heather poisoned him or something, who knows? And I know I didn't. I know I didn't, I know we were getting along, like this is... And I was on trial.

Starting point is 01:15:06 I would want to go on the stand and be like, I did not do this. I want to shout it from the rooftops. Of course, you got to believe your attorneys to say it might be better that you don't. Right. But I always think that's, like, such a weird thing, because if you...

Starting point is 01:15:26 If you have conviction in it, why not take the stand? I think it's because if there's a very talented opposing attorney, it's like they can just eviscerate you. They can twist you up. Yeah. And it can go really far. And then also you can, because you're so emphatic, you can look insensitive or your tears could be fake or there's all these things you could also

Starting point is 01:15:45 be someone could also pick apart but with her I mean this this story was just insanity so I could see why she was like but she did she ever take the stand on herself she didn't and she doubled down she still is doubling down with her story that she didn't do it in the most recent Dateline interview. She tried to blame JJ's death on Tylee, her daughter. She's just sick. She said that maybe Tylee did it. She did?

Starting point is 01:16:15 Yeah. To the little boy? Mm-hmm. Which is like, just let your daughter rest in peace. Now you're trying to just destroy her memory and her legacy. She's awful. And a friend of mine was actually covering this trial the entire time it was happening. And I was talking with her this morning a little bit. And she said that the jurors yesterday, once the verdict was announced, they didn't know about Tylee. They didn't

Starting point is 01:16:38 know about JJ. They didn't know about Chad's wife, Tammy, because none of that was introduced in this because it's something completely separate so they would then found out after the trial had concluded that she had been convicted of killing her kids and that Tammy was dead as well and she said that the jurors were so shaken up that one of them was physically shaking which you can imagine at that point they're all going home researching the case like getting caught up with it right but that had to be very jarring to learn all that. And then if I was thinking, when I heard that,

Starting point is 01:17:07 I was like, if I was on the jury, even if I found her guilty, then hearing that after the fact, I would probably have such a pit in my stomach being like, thank God we got it right. Can you imagine if we like let this person go or had found her not guilty and you learn all of these other things after the fact?

Starting point is 01:17:22 It's just such a heavy responsibility. In your opinion, how soon if she doesn't already have some male pen pals writing her? Oh, I'm sure she already does. I have some juicy scoop for you, actually. Give it to me. So a girl who used to work for me, in the true crime circuit, who went to these trials,

Starting point is 01:17:43 I found out that she has been messaging with Lori, putting money on her books, pretending to be a Mormon herself, that she's relating to her on all sorts of levels. I sent her to the first Lori trial, and I never knew any of this. And I just found this out maybe two weeks ago. I was so sick to my stomach, like I couldn't sleep. I was like, because she started, like I couldn't sleep. I was like, because she was started messaging her while she was covering the first trial.

Starting point is 01:18:09 And so I don't know if it was like she was fangirling over her or became so fixated she didn't realize like this is real life. She's not a celebrity because you know how people are like obsessed with Chris Watson stuff too. Right. But full on started like a pen pal relationship with her. So wait, this girl was working for you like with research and stuff?

Starting point is 01:18:29 And so how did you, had you already let her go before you found this out? Yeah, she left and works with another, with a different news company. Okay. Do you think it could be like a lesbian thing? No, no. I think it's more like a lesbian thing? No, no. I think it's more of a fangirl type situation.

Starting point is 01:18:48 And just wanting to get close? Yeah. And just being the one that's like, I'm the closest to this woman and all these other things. But she's not sharing it with anybody. That's what's so bizarre. She never told me that they were in contact. And this started while she was still working for me.

Starting point is 01:19:02 So how do you message someone in prison? They have prison portals where it, it's almost like email. Oh. But she didn't, but not to your knowledge, has she gone to visit in person? Not to my knowledge. And then she gives her money for like the noodles or whatever. Yeah. Oh my God.

Starting point is 01:19:17 And like created a whole fictitious backstory of her own upbringing. She's not Mormon. She said, she like did all this research trying to relate. To connect, yeah did all this research trying to relate. To connect, yeah. And just bizarre. So bizarre. And she was at this trial covering it too,

Starting point is 01:19:31 for the new company that she works for. Crazy. Which I'm like, do you have any integrity? No. And yeah, it goes so beyond that too, because she has advocated to be an ally for the two kids, that she has talked with some of the survivors, like the family members, Kay and Larry.

Starting point is 01:19:48 The grandparents of the little boy. The grandparents, yes. Yeah, sorry, I think I said survivors. Meanwhile, she's messaging Lori and befriending her. It's so sick. It makes me sick. I do think there's a lot of fan-girling, fan-gotten, you know, with it.

Starting point is 01:20:05 Why women marry the Menendez brothers and things like that. Okay, where do you land on the Menendez? Where are we now with the Menendez brothers and resentencing hearings and all of this? So I believe they had a hearing last week and now the next one is pushed to May to where they will be resentenced. Well, May is right around the corner. Oh yeah you're right. Yeah so that's gonna happen in May. I think that they'll be out and to your point they'll probably start a podcast but I think they'll be out. I feel like now it's like so much

Starting point is 01:20:39 time has been served that I don't know it depends whether you stand on the fact of they should have been incarcerated this entire time, that they're guilty, that they did this because they wanted the money, or if you're on the opposite side that they were abused, I don't think they're a threat to the public at this point. So I think they probably will be resentenced and released. That's my guess. Yeah. And they'll get a lot of tail. And I don't think either of, well, maybe Eric will stick with his wife that he's had. It's Lyle who had Anna Menendez who found out he was cheating on her. Then

Starting point is 01:21:14 he got another wife who then she found out he's cheating with the young English girl. Oh, I didn't know that. And now Rosie O'Donnell says she's in love with Lyle. What? Yeah. Isn't Rosie O'Donnell a lesbian? Well, she just says she loves him, like an auntie or whatever. The way she loved Tom Cruise back when she was acting like she was straight. I think what they should do, aside from a podcast, is the Gap should hit them up, and they should do a sweater campaign.

Starting point is 01:21:41 There's so many things they could do. Even Rolex, they could do a thing. It's gonna be weird because they're gonna probably try to be like classy when they first get out, but they shouldn't. No, they should just milk it. They should just tap, they should just make their money. Tap on the frenzy when it is,

Starting point is 01:21:59 cause if you wait too long, people get over it. But you guys, look, the show has already gone a long time, but of course we talked more and we got in gotten deeper to the Menendez brothers. We covered Scott Peterson. We got into Gypsy Rose and Gypsy Rose Blanchard and also a crime I was unfamiliar with. We kept going and I was like, you know what?

Starting point is 01:22:22 This really is too juicy. We are gonna put it on the Patreon under the triple scoop, which is juicy crimes. So if you're part of that, you're going to hear that as well. If you're curious about Patreon, you haven't joined, change your life, go to heather Mcdahl.net and join, and you'll get that the rest of this episode, as well as my Friday episode this weekend. So don't miss out. Thank you so much. Love you. Bye.

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Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald - Juicy Crimes: Karen Read, Idaho, Lori Vallow with Annie Elise

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