Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald - Justin Bieber’s Coachella, The Comeback’s Dan Bucatinsky & Alex Cooper vs. Alix Earle

Episode Date: April 14, 2026

We are diving into the Coachella chaos to see if Justin Bieber’s performance was a total hit or just pure rage-bait, plus the latest updates on the escalating TikTok war between Alex Cooper and Alix Earle. Then, the multi-talented Dan Bucatinsky joins us to pull back the curtain on the genius of Valerie Cherish and HBO’s The Comeback, revealing the "thirst bucket" inspiration behind his character and his groundbreaking time on Scandal. Dan also shares hilarious and poignant stories from his book, Does This Baby Make Me Look Straight?, offering an honest look at his journey through gay fatherhood and adoption. It’s hilarious, it’s heartfelt, and it’s incredibly juicy, don't miss it! -For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month’s subscription and free shipping when you visit https://Nutrafol.com and enter promo code JUICYSCOOP. -Refresh your spring wardrobe with Quince. Go to https://Quince.com/juicy for free shipping and 365-day returns.  -Use code JUICYSCOOP at https://jonesroadbeauty.com to get a Free Shimmer Face Oil with your first purchase!  -Head to https://dosedaily.co/JUICYSCOOP or enter JUICYSCOOP to get 35% off your first subscription.   -Get 15% off your first order plus free shipping at https://BollAndBranch.com/juicyscoop with code juicyscoop.  Subscribe to my new show Juicy Crimes!: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/juicycrimes⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Stand Up Tickets and info: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://heathermcdonald.net⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald and get extra juice on Patreon: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/JuicyScoopPod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/juicyscoop⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Watch the Juicy Scoop On YouTube: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@JuicyScoop⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Shop Juicy Scoop Merch: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://juicyscoopshop.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Me on Social Media: Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/heathermcdonald⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@heathermcdonald⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ YouTube: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@HeatherMcDonaldOfficial⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In communities across Canada, hourly Amazon employees can grow their skills and their paycheck by enrolling in free skills training programs for in-demand fields. Learn more at aboutamazon.ca. Heather MacDonald has got the Juicy Scoot. When you're on the road, when you're on the go, juices scoop is the show to know. She talks Hollywood Tales for real life, Mr. Segment's Serial Data, and Serial sister, you'll be addicted and addicted fast to the number one tabloid real life podcast. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. I have the best show for you today.

You're absolutely going to love it. I know many of you follow me on Instagram and TikTok and you're like, Heather, you were at Coachella. How was that? Give us a scoop. Well, I technically did a rage bait video, which was my sister's show. Shannon was coming over because we were going to record a juicy crimes, which by the way is every Wednesday, please subscribe. It's always so good and juicy. And as she was coming over, I looked at

this little weird dress I had and I put together a Coachella outfit. And so I greeted my sister at the door and she's like, what the hell is this outfit? And then Drake was like, oh wait, I think it would be really funny if you did like a photo shoot like every other Coachella girl. And we post it. And so we went out just outside my pool and did this thing. And I loved the comments. Now, 94% of you were like, oh my God, you're never too old for Coachella. You look great. And then the other 6% the rage baiting worked. And they were furious. Like, how dare you wear this outfit? What are you doing? I did not attend. We streamed it. We, I went out to a fun dinner with Martin Ballard, the interior designer to the stars who will be on juicy scoop as well in Palm Springs and went to his beautiful

home. I just had a great weekend. We just had so much fun. But I did not actually go. You know, I did not camp. I did not go to Coachella. But we did watch our boy, Justin Bieber, where he was a headliner Saturday night. And not a fan of jorts, never been. The outfit was not the look that I love my Justin Beeb's wearing. He basically wore the same thing that he wore every morning when he goes to vintage coffee, which is in La Quinta, and everyone knows that he goes there, and he loves to get his coffee, which is fine, but I don't think that you should be mad that, you know, other people want to see you at vintage coffee.

You are Justin Bieber. You can have the coffee delivered to your house. So if you come, because you want to be out in the wild, just know that now you're out in the wild. and you better be a delight with your hoodie on. But he is a delight when he goes there. And by the way, go to the local, which is next door in Lakeita and get the best food of your life. That's where you love to go for brunch, lunch dinner.

Anyway, so he comes out and listen, I was looking forward to, I liked when he wore his underwear and sang about the Yukon and Tucson. Okay, I like that. I'd never heard the song before. That was the first time I saw out. I've watched it a bunch of time. I like a shirtless, Justin. I like seeing a little more of the body.

He's 32, so it's okay now to say that. Anyway, no, he never took off his shirt. He kept this outfit on. And he played a lot of new songs, all of which I know I will love. But then he got on the laptop. And this is where there was some controversy. And he was looking up himself,

and then he would play some songs where he was almost harmonizing with his younger self, which that I thought was really cool. So you would get like a half of a song like baby baby, like a hit or whatever. But there wasn't any, there was no big stage thing. There was no big dancing.

There was no shirts being removed. The jorts stayed on. I kind of was like, I don't know. I could see the controversy, okay? But a lot of people really loved it that he didn't have to do a big stage thing, that it was a unique and that it was kind of an artistic thing, and it was like a full circle being that he's been in the business for 19 years.

I thought that was really cool. It's reported that he made $10 million. However, YouTube was the sponsor of this event. So I wonder if this was in collaboration with YouTube in thinking of this creative way to also utilize YouTube and how great it is. and I love YouTube, and I hope you're subscribed to Heather McDonnell's juicy scoop and juicy crimes here on YouTube.

Please subscribe, share, like, the whole thing, leave a comment. So I watched the whole thing from my house, streamed it, and was very happy to just crawl into bed after, as many of you did. And I still love Justin. I thought it was unique and different. And obviously, it's an hour and a half show. He can't play every song. He was smart to do his new stuff.

and but it was probably I think like 15 minutes too long scrolling on the Apple computer in his bedroom for the Coachella. I thought it was a little too long. But other than that, it was still good. Then we watched the Masters and I, and just relaxed on Sunday, had a great time. So for me, it was a perfect weekend. I loved it. So speaking of Coachella and influencers and all that, there was kind of, there is a juicy

little thing going on with Alex Cooper of Calder Daddy and Alask. Alex Earl, who's like the number one influencer. They joined forces. Well, rather Alex Cooper kind of took Alex Earl under her wing. And it was like, oh, this is really smart. She's not threatened by this new blonde Alex. And she gave her a podcast under her network. Something happened and they ended it.

And neither of them really fuck with each other. They don't talk about each other. They don't, you know, do anything together. But there's always like, wow, what happened with that podcast? I have speculated that maybe. the podcast, the art of podcasting, as you will, might just not have been for Alex Earle. She makes so much money as a fashion beauty influencer. That's what people are attracted to, seeing her get ready with her videos and stuff. Maybe talking for an hour and interviewing somebody or whatever that

show was, just wasn't for her and she wasn't willing to put in the work for something that financially wasn't worth it. That's one theory. But recently, Alex Earle started to repose negative videos about Alex Cooper and like comments that were negative and it all got back to Alex Cooper. So today she spoke of caller daddy. Alex Cooper's like, bring some receipts. Tell me. Stop hinting. If you really have a problem with me, put it out there because I am sick of this shit. And I would just like, so I thought that was pretty juicy. And then of course, Dave Portnoy of Barstool Studios of Barstool Sports gets involved. And he said, he's like real gossipy. He's like basically

like a character in Mean Girls. And he comes out and he's like, well, what I heard was their friendship broke up over the Carl's Jr. commercial. Alex Cooper wanted to do the Carl's Jr. commercial. They shared a publicist who's a female.

And in fact, Alex Earl got the Carl's Jr. commercial. You know, Paris Hilton did it once where you're like hot and skinny and you're eating a big like messy burger. Is that really Alex Cooper? She's, you know, know, pretty podcaster, and she's thin, but she's not necessarily the way Alex Earle is and her sexy outfits. So, who knows if we'll ever know the truth. And I am kind of surprised that Alex Cooper

addressed it. But I think it's good that she did because I feel like there's a bit of a backlash towards Alex Cooper. She's the elder Jen Zier. Alex Earl is the newer Gen Zier. And people always want a story where they think that an older, more successful woman fucked over a new younger one. And sometimes there just isn't that story. So who knows, but it was pretty juicy. And then I went to bed with good news, finding out that Britney Spears voluntarily went to rehab for substance abuse. And I think that is so great. And I hope that she finds some peace and gets healthy and it's good for her and the family, so that is all great news. Now, for our very fun, juicy interview, you're absolutely going to love it. I know it. I can't wait to hear your thoughts on it. Hello and welcome to Juicy

Scoop. I am so excited to talk to my guest. First time here, you will recognize him. He is a delight. He's funny. He's an actor. He's a producer. He does all the things. He's a dad. Dan Bukotinsky. Well played. Okay. So excited. Thanks for having me. Oh, I'm so excited that you're here. You know, I love you. We know each other. Yes.

And I've never gotten to sit on the couch. I'm so glad that I just went raw-dogging it, DMJ. Yes, you did. We didn't go through any of the important ways. And I was like, yep. I'm so excited because my audience knows that I have been obsessed. Here you are looking real cute. Thank you.

The comeback. Dan Bukotinsky is ready for his. close up. I have been obsessed with the comeback since it started. I love that you've been a writer-producer and been on it as a character this whole time. It's such a unique show in that it started in 2005. Yes. And right from the start, when we discovered it, my husband and I, we've been married a long time, like you have been married to your husband for a long time. He was like, this is you. He's like, this is you. Now, I don't know if you know that Lisa was my teacher at the groundling. I did not know that.

And I immediately had like such a thing with her because I grew up from Woodland Hills. She grew up in Encina. Tarzana. She was Taft. Yes, she did. And that her story was, you know, she was, you know, this brilliant person. Their dad was a doctor. She's going to like go that route.

She went pre-med. And then her brother was friends with John Levitt. John Levitt, who was at the Groundlings and she was like, I think I could do this. And then I always thought it was so interesting because she kind of, Keenan Ivory Waynes also was an engineering major. Yeah. And when I would, and I wrote white chicks with him and worked on his TV shows, and he would always in writing the things go, the math of the joke, the math of the joke.

And so I was like, oh, that's really interesting that Lisa has that part of the brain as well as being funny and creative that is necessary in which people don't realize. Yeah. There is an element of that that really is great once you kind of get the math of the joke, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, and Lisa was pre-med, like all the way through. We overlapped in college. I went to Vastro College up to state, New York, and so did she. We did not know each other in college because I was artie-farty, and she was in the biology building.

Amazing. And I was doing a dance troupe off of the steps of the science building, which is as close as I ever got to the science building. And she was like, oh, those annoying dancers. And that was me. And then we met 10 years later on the set of my husband's movie, The Opposite of Sex, where Lisa starred. and she and I connected. And we're like, you know, we both went to school together at the same time. And we became friends right from there.

It'll be 30 years next year. I mean, we've been friends for a very long time. But Lisa, her approach to character and comedy, and there's so much intuition inside of her. But also, she's an incredibly smart, logical, rational. Like, both sides of Lisa's brain are operating at 100% all the time. And it's fascinating and inspiring to watch and to be a part of. And, you know, we've been business, we were producing partners for 15 years, but we also have been friends for almost 30.

And certainly as an acting partner on many things that we've done together on screen, the comeback very, very satisfying to be on camera with her. It was, what's so interesting about her, too, is like, you know, I just relate to her on so many levels and I relate to this character too. and just how she, you know, got married, married someone not in the business. My husband's not in the business. He eventually got into helping manage the podcast when that was like a hit, but he was not an actor, comedian, you know, wasn't trying to be.

It helps. Yeah. And it was just so what I also love is her husband in the show is like a finance guy. Yeah. So, but also in real life that she said in an interview recently like, well, I didn't have that going on where both people are actors in the family and how that can, you know, help a marriage or not make a marriage or get you jobs or, you know, she was always just sort of like, and she said, yeah, and the success of friends, the energy, she felt like the entertainment

energy was towards the other people and not really her. Yeah. And so it's so wonderful that she continued to work in these great, unique, funny projects and it's just, and just keeps going and doing different things. She's very balanced. Her family, and we don't have to keep talking about Lisa, but the thing that's so inspiring about her is that, you know, she's very close to her parent.

She was very close to her family. Yes. Her siblings all live in Los Angeles. Her dad lives in Los Angeles. They all get together very often. Her family is very important to her and it balances her out. Right. And in many ways, that is, that was very important to Lisa and Michael Patrick King

when they created the comeback. It was important that Valerie Cherish have a husband at home. have a nice house and have a stable life that was outside of the business. She does not need this. She wants it. She loves it. Valerie or she leaves it? Valerie, Valerie.

Valerie is creatively driven and driven by attention. Right. And driven by cameras and fame. Absolutely. But she doesn't need it. She comes home and she's going to be just fine. Right. And that's a very important aspect of the comeback.

Because back in 2005, people found it really difficult to watch. that this woman would face so many setbacks of call it humiliation, call it embarrassment, call it failure, call it the stumbling blocks that all of us go through in this business. And then to feel like, oh, no, she's not going to, you can't tell the story of that person who can't pay their health insurance. You want it to feel like something that they themselves have chased and not because they need it. Okay. When I sell my business, I want the best tax and investment advice. I want to help my kids, and I want to give back to the community. Ooh, then it's the vacation of a lifetime. I wonder if my head of office has a forever setting.

An IG Private Wealth Advisor creates the clarity you need with plans that harmonize your business, your family, and your dreams. Get financial advice that puts you at the center. Find your advisor at IGPrivatewealth.com. So a question about, this is such a unique situation and that it was, 20 years ago, and was it just the one season 20 years ago? Yes, we were canceled. So you were canceled.

Okay, so when I was watching that... This is like the best cancellation story ever. Because when I was watching it, I really, right off the bat, said, this is ahead of its time. Yeah. This is ahead of its time because the character was a sitcom star who then gets a reality show. Yes. And as someone who has loved reality TV since like MTV, you know, real world. Real world and all that.

Like, always loved it. wanted to be on one. Yeah. And then when I was writing for Chelsea lately, I was immediately like, I like, I remember where I was when I saw an ad for Orange County Real Housewives. Holding the Orange and I go, this is such a good idea. Like, you know, it was just like, oh, my God. So my husband and I are watching it. We're dying laughing because he's like, this is you.

And there was this one scene where they get the free explorer, whatever, to go drive to Palm Springs. And as he's driving, he's like, well, this does handle nicely. The guy in the back pops up and is like, can you say the... The Lincoln Navigator handles the road really nicely. You're going to have to say Lincoln Navigator in front of each of your sentences. And then he tucks back down again. So like, you know, how many people are in that car? Brilliant.

And it's like, I feel like maybe, I think at that time, you know, with a little too inside. It was. And it wasn't a lot of product placement back then. Yeah. And I think they were kind of like, what? And then just other little things like they go to the pause for explain. And they fall asleep and she wakes up and she forgets to have saved her lounge chair. And she like pulls open the drapes and he's naked with his bare ass and all these kids are swimming.

She's like, the day is rude. The day is rude. We've not done the. And I'm like, oh my God, that's everything about it is me. Like I'm just like. And then it's just so great. It was ahead of its time in the sense that there wasn't a lot of, the kind of reality that has already. that had already been established, were the competition shows,

like Amazing Race, like Survivor. And there was this show, to be honest with you, there was this show that Anna Nicole Smith was doing on E. Yes. Where the cameras were following this celebrity around her home and in her life. And Lisa, who had played a character in the groundlings, that was basically Valerie Cherish. Oh, I love that.

Pitched to Michael Patrick King over lunch in 2004. What if, like the Anna Nicole's show, show, a camera crew is following Valerie Cherish around in her life. And Lisa would improvise as Valerie Cherish. And the two of them started to cook up this idea that we are living in a time, and this again, 2004, 2005, where the greatest threat to writers of television at that time was the very notion of reality. Of reality TV. And so that was just what the theme of the story was. It was like you're working on a sitcom, but the only way you're allowed to work on this sitcom is if you're also in the reality show. And the way the writers, and particularly Paul E.G., this showrunner, reacted

to the fact that he's being forced to be on a reality show, is with such rage. And we were canceled after that. And then audiences found the comeback over the years. Which is also so great about streaming. We were on DVD, though. Yeah. Oh, on DVD. Oh, wow. They found it on DVD. It was there was no streaming at that point. Oh my God, that's amazing. They were watching the comeback because they would find it. Either HBO continued to play it, which they did, but also the DVD with all the DVD extras, I highly recommend looking at them because that's the only place they exist, those DVD extras.

But then we had this opportunity to maybe come back and do a season two 10 years later. And in 2014, it was a very different landscape in television. So suddenly the shows took on this sort of time capsule feeling. we're catching up with Valerie Cherish now 10 years later and now the threat to broadcast television is cable you know like premium cable is now going to is going to stomp out basic cable you know basic network television and then people kept asking will there ever be a third season of the comeback

and we were like I don't know we don't know and finally Lisa and Michael who would have lunch every year and talk about what do you think we could what do you think is going on in the life of Valerie Cherish and Lisa was like it would be so cool if we had seen her during the strike because to see someone like Valerie taking advantage of the opportunities of the strike and that's so brilliant that led them to this what if forget about the strike because the strike was about AI what if Valerie gets offered the first ever written sitcom by written by AI and the two of them blit up and they were like this we

have to do it and they pitched it to HBO and they were like if you're going to do it you have to do it right this minute. And they, Lisa and Michael wrote all eight episodes and we were, we wrapped in November and are on the air in March. It's amazing because I've talked, I've had this show for 10 years. My audience is really great and they're,

you know, a great demographic of women and men, but mostly women. And they're like, I've said, like I've come across shows. And I'm like, I think this was written by AI. Like, this is so freaking bad. And so then when people are like, Heather, the new,

comeback is about AI, like you're going to die. And so I love it because you guys go back a couple years so that she can do like deal with the strike and COVID, which just stopped. Yeah, we dealt with that. She gets the part of Roxy Heart in Chicago, which I've also talked at nauseam about how it was like, there's always, I remember when they did this with Rizzo? Yes. When every sitcom star.

It was like the revolving cast of Rizzo on Greece. Rizzo and the revival of Greece. This week it's going to be. and next week it's going to be. Rosie O'Donnell, Brooke Shields. They all did it. And the same thing with Roxy and Chicago, and it's still that way. But now it's kind of like the reality star gets it.

Yeah. Correct. And just the fact that she was like, how do the fuck do I get out of it? And I've had things in my life where I said yes to it. My husband being a financial person will be like, why would you do this? This makes no sense. And I'm like, you are not an artist. You don't understand.

Standups don't do gigs for the money. And I just want to do. I'm an artist. I just want to do the stand-up thing again. And then I'm like, oh my God. So when she's like, well, why did I do this? Like, why am I here? What am I going to do?

I can't quit. I can't quit. I mean, I have a contract. Why can't you quit? And then using the COVID excuse with the, and I love. Not just the COVID excuse. That's the assisted. But the notion that she left, she left that Broadway show because she needed to stand side

by side with the writers who are in L.A. on the picket line. That is classic Valerie. It was so funny. because when Chelsea lately started, I was just a writer right from the start on it and then got on the panel and then she kind of realized, oh, we could have a group of writers that, you know, and we have our own world around them.

Anyway, but prior to that, I think one of the reasons it was a hit is because we were not Writers Guild. And there was a strike at that time in 2007. Yeah, yeah, there was. And only one other writer myself were Writers Guild. And so our EP at the time walked into my office And she said, Heather, Ted and I have spoken.

And we want you to know that if you need to leave and be with your comrades on the picket line, that your job is safe when you return. And I go, I haven't had a Riders Guild job in like 10 years because I was like my first job since having kids. And I go, so thank you. But I'm good. No, I'll be the story producer and whatever. Yeah. And, but it was exactly that thing. Like, would you?

I'm like, no. And then it was great because then we were like the only game in town. And I really do think that helped because everybody else couldn't do it. And we were still doing like funny things. Sure. And then so I love that whole thing. That's just hilarious. It was her out.

It was her out for sure. And then we cut, you know, this is an episode one of the, of our new season. But we, we catch up with the present. Yes. And she like, like she would. Yeah. She's got a podcast. Cherish the time.

I love... And she's taking advantage of whatever opportunities are coming her away, a little indie movie one day on an indie movie and her podcast. But thank you for...

I love podcast humor. I have been doing this for a long time. Yes, you have. And I started it for the exact same reasons that Valerie did is after Chelsea lately ended.

I had two different pilots at TLC that aired but didn't go further after six episodes. And I, I just like Valerie said, well, I guess it's time for a podcast. And I made $250 a month the first year. I just did it to let people know I was at the chuckle hut wherever.

And, you know, then it became a thing. And then it was like, oh, everyone can have one. Yeah, but you were doing it early. Right. So I was doing it early. But I love how, of course, she would have it. And then kind of realized, like, well, it doesn't matter. This is supposed to be professional.

But then realizing, like, wow, we talked a long time. And patience, the brilliantly. We acted. Ella Stiller. Amazing. Cute, like, Jen Zier is like, you're at 14 minutes.

Well. What else is on the list? Yeah. What else? Peach lipstick. It's one of my favorite lines in the whole thing. She's like,

well, let's look at the list of topics. Peach lipstick. And then she was like, you know what? We're at 42 minutes. She's like, okay, good, good. And she's hurry. Oh, my can't. Yeah.

Her cans are off of her face fast enough. Because there are so many people that have started podcast and stuff that did it during the COVID time. and if someone convinced them, you know, I can get you this deal. She's just doing it though, and it's not really generating a lot. And it's the reason why we set the table that way

or the way that Michael and Lisa set the table that way is so that when Billy walks into her condo and says, are you, you know, are you ready to hear incredible news? Which is your character? My character, Billy, are you ready because you have been offered the starring role? I mean, I don't even say that yet.

You've been offered a role. And the scene, we could. You know, the scene got cut down a little bit. There was a moment there where I was showing her how much they were offering her, how much money. And she looked at it. She's like, for the whole thing. I'm like, no, per episode. I mean, my head's going to explode because it's such good news.

Did Billy check to see if the unions are okay with it? No. Did Billy check to see AI, meaning what? Will there be any writers on it? He doesn't care. The bottom line is Billy got an offer. It doesn't matter. It's for a lot of money.

And it's the first window into the fact that Billy is just chasing opportunity. this is a chance to be an executive producer on a show and who cares, and I'm sure it's legal or else they wouldn't be doing it, which is the dumbest thing he could possibly say. And therein launches a big idea that Michael and Lisa were thinking, if we're going to do another season, we better be doing one that is a big idea that feels like a big threat right now, which it does, and it's relevant and is hilarious.

It is so hilarious. And then so the husband, the finance husband comes, and he is also going to quit his job to do a reality joke. He's left his job for reasons that have not come out yet, which when you watch the rest of the season will unfold. But he told a joke and he was asked to step. She's like, well, that was in 2020. You couldn't, jokes were illegal then. Jokes were illegal then.

You know, jokes, that was back when jokes were illegal. And it's so true and it's so funny and like, it's just so good. And he's trying to figure out, what do I do now? And she's like, he's got a reality show. Finance bros, dudes. And she's like, he's our own Mauricio. Like, there's just so many funny references. Oh my God, you guys are so good.

Everyone's going to love it. Everyone's going to love it. You're so good. Okay, so what I love about your character is, even though you're the manager, we all know. And we've all had someone either being our assistant or our agent or our manager or something along the way that actually want to be in front of the camera. You know what? My first publicist. I came out with a book in 2012 called Does This Baby Make Me Look Straight?

Oh, that's so good. I love that. Which was my kind of chronicle, comedic chronicling of how I became a dad, how my husband and I became parents. But when I was promoting the book, I got booked on The Talk. And I had fired my publicist, but he insisted on coming anyway. And so he was in my dressing room, and I was like, this is so awkward. I mean, what are you doing here? You're not my publicist anymore.

And before I could literally blink and turn my head, he was on stage. Julie Chen Moonvest was sort of like the lead host. And before I could literally turn or get miced up, this publicist was chatting with her about getting himself on the talk. As like what to talk hot topics or Hollywood scoop? Hollywood scoop. His job as a publicist in Hollywood PR, like I could be a great guest. He was there to pitch himself on the show on the day that. that I was there for the first time on a talk show to promote my book.

And I was like, oh, my God. Like at every turn, everyone is looking for their moment. So there is a lot of that in Billy this season. Had you thought about that in creating this character and where the character's going? Listen, it was going to be a thirst bucket. It was a character that Michael and Lisa created back in 2025 when Lisa needed a publicist. She was desperate for a publicist. and she says to Mickey, her gay hairdresser back in 2005,

I gotta get a gay, Mickey, I gotta get a gay. And so she meets Billy. And Billy is this kid, this young guy who's not that young, you know, who had just been passed over for a promotion by a very big firm and was pissed off about it. And shoves everybody in season one. You see this rage in Billy. He's unable to deal with conflict.

And so he shoves anybody who doesn't give him what he wants. You don't quite get. a hint that he's kind of after a certain amount of credit for himself. In season two, he's like throws the phone and throws a hissy fit because, you know, someone else is trying to do his job better than he can. And so he's self-hating and kind of, he's got inner demons. But only this season now, 20 years later, are you seeing that he's looking for opportunity for Valerie? He's been a really good manager. And now he wants to be a producing partner. But what he's after for himself doesn't really come to play until like last night's episode where suddenly he's

literally being filmed for varieties 50 over 50. 50 under 50. No, 50 over 50. Oh, it's 50 over 50. 50 over 50. It doesn't even exist, but one could, can you imagine that existing 100 percent? So he's got, he's on a photo shoot. Valerie needs him.

She's in a total code red. And he's like, I'm there for you as soon as I'm done with my single photo shoot and my group photo shoot for Variety's 50 over 50. And my also favorite is that he is using her social media person for himself now. Yeah. Yeah. And he says the words that says everything you need to know about him and most of the planet, I am suicidal for some solo press.

Like if you don't get out of the frame, they're just going to run with a photo of you in it. So step away. Right. Exactly. It's my turn. Let's go right here. It's my turn. Yeah, this is in town and country.

This just came out, this piece. Very cute. And it's really just, it's really about the fact that Billy is this opportunist. I also love that, remember when also in this business where all of a sudden managers and agents were like, we are going to be your, like, we are going to produce it to. And we were like, what? And then like, but then you don't have to pay commissions. That's right. Okay. But then when you're trying to sell shows, it would like, I mean, I've had it fuck up a deal.

And I was like, wait a minute. I didn't need this. Look, to be fair, some managers became among the best EPs and producers in town. It's fewer and far between. It became a foregone conclusion that your management company became the production company that made, you know, anonymous content has made a lot of television. And there are great management companies that became great production companies. Right, absolutely. But not every manager knows how to be a producer.

And Billy is a manager who's been given the title of executive producer. and is running with it. In episode two, he's had hats made that say executive producer on them. What the hell? Like, are you kidding? How much did that cost? And why would you do that? This episode is brought to you by FedEx.

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that she's like, I don't think we should do it. And then they do the photo and just as the actual executive producer, show her to watch it. We're taking a picture. It's so embarrassing. The truth of the matter is, it really is saying something much larger about society in general, which Lisa said recently in an interview,

which is, and it's what our season is, And it's what our season's about a little bit. Everybody, everybody has become Valerie Cherish. We now live in a world where you don't need a reality crew to control your narrative. You've got one of these. Everyone's got a phone and Instagram and TikTok and you can tell your story and be the star of your own story. And the thirst that people have for that kind of attention, it exists in the palm of our hands. I also love, and I think this is really relatable to any business, is you go to,

meet. She's going to do the show. She's excited. You bring her for this first meeting. And you think you're going to walk into a room of actual people. And no, it's just the screen with the Zoom. 30 people on a Zoom in a conference room with no one else there. And I also love that they show all the faces. And when they're like, hi, Valerie, and then you can spot like the three very effeminate gay guys that have been watching her since they were 12. And they're like, hey girl. And I'm I'm like, oh, I just, this is so funny. It's like there's all those subtle things that you guys thought of. I just am like, it's so good.

Michael Patrick King, it was such an incredible director. The two of them, the chemistry between Lisa Kudra and Michael Patrick King, when they're writing the comeback, is just magical. Like two people who just lock in and can really tell the world of a story, the problems and the challenges of Valerie Cherish, and also make every other character in her or. orbit real people. And when Michael was directing, even those background artists to be some of the people on that Zoom, he gave every single one of them a situation, an environment. Here's the person

you are at work. Think about what your office looks like. What do you, you know, he gave everybody something to actually play. And so the world of that Zoom feels full because it was, we paid attention to it. And then it ends. And then the guy was actually down the hall, which I literally had that happen. Yeah. I had a meeting. You think that they're in New York. I had a meeting and I was like,

oh, the people are in New York and they're like, no, but they're just going to do it on Zoom. On Zoom. And I'm like, but I had to drive an hour and a half to get to Netflix. Like, why do I like? It's unbelievable. I know. I know.

I once pitched at, I think it might have been one of the major platforms at, at the building of their platform. and the executives who were employees of that platform were joined me via Zoom, I guess from home. And also, I just think that it's just so cheesy and real when they're like, how do we get in the Valerie Cherish business? I know. Like, I totally remember people saying that to me and I'm like, I'm a business.

Like just, I was like, what? Wow, blowing smoke a little bit. And it helps. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Like, or you're like, you know, deciding between agents or whatever. And it's like.

Well, you know, Lisa got Emmy nominated for the first season and the second season, and and it never went her way, but, but for the comeback, for the comeback. No, no, yeah, Lisa's got an Emmy for friends, but, but for the comeback. And this has been a, you know, this is the, I think the only show in the history of television that took 22 years to make three seasons. And it really allowed us to tell these very big stories 10 years apart, kind of like a time capsule of our business, but she channels this incredibly three-dimensional character who's emotional, hilarious, outlandish, is trying to control her narrative. But also, I believe, is a heroic

figure. I mean, Valerie Cherish has a way of flipping the switch to the positive, even when she's being kicked in the teeth. And would that we all have that ability to turn it around when it's really not good? And like the woman of a certain age, like even when she said, when she's like I left you a voice message or like voice message. Why don't you just leave a voice note? All right, whatever. No one. Yeah. There's so many times where I like, you know, I remember a few years ago or something I was, I had this assistant working for me. And I'm like, no, I called them. She's like, called them. That's like pretty. You left a message on the machine. She's like, that's pretty aggressive. And I'm like, oh, actually calling someone is like,

see as like, yeah. I've been attacked. I'm like, no, I just think it's like, sometimes people misinterpret the text. So I'm just like, and also like, like, you can't, now I always call because I'm like, you see these like scandals where someone has screen grabbed the text. I know. And you're like, I'd just rather call you because you can't use that. But that's why people like a voice memo because they're not going to listen to a whole answering machine message, not answering machine, voicemail message. How old am I? But the idea that Billy's like, don't send me a text or an email. Why would I answer any of the emails? Well, maybe because you're an executive producer on the show. Have you read any of the scripts? No. So it's like, just send me a

voice memo. And what he does at the end of the episode last night is so egregious. It's so egregious and so awful that it's going to have repercussions for a bit. But, you know, to literally record Valerie giving me the what she thinks is going to be the words that I should use when I talk to the network. And he just sends her voice memo to them. It's so funny. And I love it. We can talk about forever. And I'm so excited that there's still like four episodes left that I can. can enjoy and milk out. And I love that it's once a week. Please, please, please, I don't want to binge. I don't want to binge. No, it really gives you something to look forward to. I mean, I have so few things to look forward to. And they really did. I said, you know, Lisa and Michael really came up

with an arc for every one of the characters in the orbit of Valerie Cherish. And Billy is no exception. I mean, Billy really takes this opportunity. And something starts to emerge in him that the audience can track happening for the whole season. And then there's an unbelievable transformation. Well, there's an unbelievable thing that happens in the last two episodes. Okay. I'm so excited. And I can talk about this forever.

Okay. I do want to talk a little bit about your other big roles that you had, you know, in scandal. Scandal? Again, ahead of its time. It was an amazing moment in time for two reasons. One, and I remember reading the pilot, Shonda Rimes, wrote this. pilot that was this unbelievable, I call it genre bending because it was a soap opera, but it took place in D.C. and was about politics. And yet it was also about underground torture and the

dark side of D.C. and this fixer, this Washington, D.C. sort of scandal fixer that every week was also a procedural. Like there was a case every week that would wrap itself up. Of course, the soap of the show kind of took a. over. But I was really lucky at that time. I had just written my book about my kids, about becoming a dad. And Shonda and I met. I had done an episode of Grey's Anatomy. And I was meeting to be a writer on Grey's Anatomy. And they hired me to play the husband of the chief of staff on Scandal and who really wanted a baby more than anything in the world, this writer. So there was a lot about me as a person that kind of went into playing James on Scandal. The writer

who wanted to be a dad. You know, that's so interesting because I don't know if you watched that doc about this writer that was on Grace Anatomy, that lied about cancer and all that. Did you know anything about that? Well, she, when I left the writing staff of Grace Anatomy, she came in. Fascinated by that story. There's a story in my book that I mentioned before that is about how Don and I met. And this is true story.

Your husband. My husband, Don Ruse, who I met years and years and years ago. And when I met him, he was taking care of his assistant who had cancer. And so part of the circle of friends that I met when I met Don and in the first 10 months of our dating, so much of our time was about caretaking this person who was going through chemo and lost her hair and was going in for treatments and had a shunt in her chest and was incontinent. and we were buying her diapers and we were visiting her at her. It was really ugly, the first 10 months of my dating Dawn. But a very similar, it had a very similar ending. Wait, stop.

And the assistant was also not being truthful about her illness? She was not being truthful about her illness. And the discovery of that fact and what it did and the repercussions of it, I chronicle in a chapter of my book, because it was so important to how, I met Don. I mean, it was the first year of our dating, and she was very threatened by my presence. And so her cancer kept rearing its ugly head because it was a way of getting his attention. So cut to years and years later, right? 15 years later maybe, more, I mean, 20 years later maybe. And I hear this story about this woman who is lying about her own cancer and using it in the writer's room as a way of pitching herself as a writer,

as a way of pitching stories for Grace Anatomy. Which made sense. Which made sense. And the way in which she was found out. And it became a documentary, I think, is on Hulu's still. It was fascinating. It's fascinating. Because as someone who's been in a writer's room and how you do use a lot of your own stories.

Oh, yeah. You're there because you're... And, you know, you were like, yeah, let's use that. Let's, you know. And then also, I'm just... I'm fascinated by grifters. Yes. The lying about cancer grift is so...

crosses such a huge line. Well, it's a kind of emotional abuse that is praying on the empathy and the sympathy of others. And also, in our case, I mean, she was, there was so much money being spent. And most of the times it does turn out to be a money grift because it's, you're getting money from the church or the charity or the lady down the street or your boss. A lot of this is about attention. A lot of this is about trying. Sometimes it does turn into money. It does.

when it becomes a crime. If there is no money, then you were just a liar. Correct. Yeah. Yeah, you can be the victim of that kind of emotional abuse and there's no there's no repercussion legally. The only way we were able to put this particular person in jail, which we did, was because we had records of how much money we had spent on her. And we were able to turn it into a felony. And this was his assistant. This was someone who began as his assistant on a movie he was doing with Michelle Pfeiffer. And, you know, I mean, I'm also fascinated. by the world of a Hollywood assistant. Oh my God. And they, I mean, the, it's just, it's, the old version is all about Eve. Yeah.

Which I've talked about this movie because my mom was like, this is such a good movie, which is more the understudy, who acts like she's a fan. Correct. You know, becomes the understudy and then eventually becomes the woman. In fact, stealing her husband and everything. It's about ambition that. When you want to. But it's the ambition.

Yes. It's the ambition, which, and it's like such a hard thing because whether it's like, you know, one of those is like Rachel's Owen and Brad, you know, and she's tried to, you know, not say anything and he's gone on his way and been successful. But the audience is so fascinated by it because we watch them work together

and we love them together. So we're like, well, why couldn't you stay together forever? And it's like, well, nobody's meant to be the assistant forever. No, this is why it's tricky. If you're, you know, everyone should use their earlier experiences to help them grow and step, and then try to leave the nest and go do the next thing. No one can blame someone for doing that. But when you are using and manipulating the leverage of the person you work for in order to step over

steps or you're making up a story or you're abusing your privilege or your access in order to get through the door for something that you're ambitious for, that's when it becomes really tricky. And in show business, the lines are so blurred. Your assistance, there's a A great assistant is an amazing thing. Yeah. But the access they have and the proximity they have and the ability. Right. And then when you find out that they have been deceptive, it's truly like, it likes being cheated on. 100%.

It's a betrayal. You're like, what? Like, I took you on a trip. I did this and that. I met everyone in your family. And then you turn around within months and say or film a TikTok about me or do this awful thing. Like, what? I know.

It's why NDAs are so important. But even then, what are you going to do? It's still a betrayal. It's still a betrayal. Right, because then it's like, are you really going to go after this person? And spend a fortune. And that's 30 years younger than you. Correct. So now you look like the, you know, crumagity, you know, JetX are going after the gens.

It doesn't pay off for them, though. By the way, anybody out there thinking this all sounds like a good idea. Here's the thing. At the end of the day, it doesn't pay off because really you want to have the goods. When you get an opportunity that then helps you grow and inspires you to the next step, The only thing that's going to happen is a door is going to open. And whatever you have, whether it's a script or your acting talent or your singing talent or whatever it is that you're bringing to the next thing, that door that opens, you have

to have it. The talent needs to be there to show. Right. Whenever, you know, when they say, oh, you were lucky, it's like, I think this is the expression. No, luck is where preparation meets opportunity. Correct. So sometimes the opportunity comes too soon and it's not going to work out. No, it's lucky.

You know, you have to see the opportunity, but also be ready to. handle it correctly. Yes, luck plays a role in what doors happen to open when you were standing in front of them. Yeah. But once you walk through the threshold, luck has nothing to do with it anymore. Right. You better have the goods. You better be talented, be smart, be hardworking and all that. So, so you guys fell in love and how old were you when you? We, you know, we did it. It wasn't, it took a little bit. I have to say, like one of the reasons I think we've, we've been together for 33 years is because it wasn't fast. We met and we immediately got along.

And Don's 10 years older than I am. And I was in my 20s. So I was in kind of a different place. He was coming out of a relationship that he had been in for a while. And I was in no, really in no position to want to be with someone who was as well established as he was.

I was working in the box office of the theater in Beverly Hills. Like I was, my group of friends, we were all aspiring. We were all working minimum wage. We were all sort of actors, writers, musicians trying to get a gig. And he had just sold a movie with,

he was at the top of his game as a screenwriter. And that was really off, it wasn't off-putting, but it was not really, we were not at the same place. But we got along so well, and we made each other laugh. And so we just kept landing as much as both of it. He was like, I don't want to date someone 10 years younger. I certainly don't want to date an actor. So this is never going to work.

Nobody wants to date an actor. No one wants to date an actor. Yeah, I wouldn't want to date me, by the way. I don't blame him. Everybody's like, it was doomed from the start. I was like, yeah, this guy is way more established than I am, and he's just coming out of a marriage,

and this thing will be over by Christmas. Now, was he married, he was married to another man? He was in a long-term relationship, and they had just split up, and I was like, this is never going to, this won't last until Christmas. And, you know, Valentine's Day, the next, that next year, we were still together,

and it really, we put the time in, to really get to know each other and become friends and have a foundation for our relationship, And I think it's one of the reasons why we've had staying power for 33 years. We didn't have kids for 10 years. So we had established ourselves as a couple before we even thought about adopting our kids. And as a couple, you know, at that time, gay marriage wasn't legal when you first got together.

No. Though there were many, there were many long-term couples and they were parents and stuff. And Don wasn't into marriage. He was like, I don't even like the whole idea of marriage. It's just like, what's, I don't think that we should put a. bunch of all put everyone together in a giant room to force ourselves to commit to each other in public as a way of coercing he don had a kind of more romantic view of it all it's like every day should be a decision that you make to stay with that person for that day and the next day is another day

and the next day is another day and at any point when it's not working or you don't want to be there anymore there should be a feeling that it could you could move on and i've always loved that idea where like every that forever isn't really something that you can commit to on a day. You can commit to today and then you can commit to the next day. And then you look back, forever something you look back on and realize that what you've done is stayed together for years and years and years of today's. You guys did get to a place where you could get married legally. Correct. In 2008, we had already had a kid. We adopted our daughter. Okay. So you did adoption. We adopted. How did you decide? How did you decide?

on adoption versus surrogacy. There was a lot of pressure to do surrogacy. Like all the gays that we knew were meeting with surrogates and going that route. And Don did not feel comfortable given the number, and he was right, given the number of children who need homes and babies that are being carried by birth moms who don't have the means or whether physical, mental, emotional, or financial means to be parents. there's such an opportunity to become a parent of an existing soul rather than create one. And Don really wanted to go the route of adoption.

And I just wanted to be a dad, so it didn't make a difference to me. So did you use like a lawyer? A lawyer. We had a lawyer who connected us to a birth mom. I tell this entire story and does this baby make me look straight. Yeah, everyone needs to get this book. We went down a path that didn't work out. And then we...

So I was just going to ask, that's always really life. It's a real lifetime movie sad. Lifetime movie storyline of where, you know, you fall in love with this young mother and she's chosen you and everything's great and you buy her car and you do this and you get the house ready and then either it was a scam or she changes her mind or whatever. Yes, it didn't work out with the first one and then pretty quickly after we met the birth mom that is the birth mom of our both of our daughter and then two years later our son. Oh, okay.

And as it turns, and she had had twins to begin with. So my kids have biological siblings. And have they met them? Yeah. Yeah. Every other year we travel to Wisconsin and meet, hang out with the bio family. Oh, really? It's a very open thing.

There's still a lot of complicated feelings around all of it for every side. Yeah. But there's a lot of love there too. And my kids Snapchat with their birth mom. And it's an open thing. And I think that's been a good thing for them. And when she, you know, was choosing a family, obviously she was okay with... She picked us because of Queer Eye.

And then I became friends with the guys who created Queer Eye. And I was like, you know that we be, that we're dads because of your show. Because our birth mom thought that all those guys, I'll never forget it. She was, you know, very thick Wisconsin accent. And she was like, you know, I think you guys would make awesome, awesome dads. Because of all those guys on Queer Eye, they all seem like they'd make awesome dads. So she wanted, and there's a phenomenon a little bit. When you're a birth mom and you sort of always want to be the only mom, even just literally the only mom.

So there is some comfort sometimes in letting a same-sex couple, guys, be the adoptive parents. Yeah, I could see that. And also just the safety that you feel when you have gay friends or gay men versus when you have a platonic, friendship with a guy that's not gay. You know, like there's always going to be that kind of, oh, and, you know, I always was like, yeah, having a gay best friend whose man is just the greatest because they still are men, they are still shiveralless, I'm saying the word wrong, but they're still like opening the door and helping you.

They're all still gentlemen. Yes. But then, and you can still laugh and you can still talk about guys and have so much fun. But then unlike a girlfriend, which is also a really special relationship, unlike a girlfriend, there's never like this like competition. Yeah. The only problem. No, the guys are just, you know, there's a comfort in a straight woman having a gay best friend

because he's not trying to get into her pants unless the pants would fit him. In which case, maybe he would if they look, if they're cute, you know. But no, there's like there's a whole element that is removed from it. Yes. That doesn't feel charged. And it kind of allows there to be an. a kind of pureness to the relationship. I think guys feel that way about their straight women friends too.

I mean, the only thing, and I've said this before, that I don't think a lot of women realize is that we're oftentimes not the only one. Yeah. But they love relationship with your gay best friend, even though you're not the only one. You feel you are the only one. Yeah.

There's no way that he could. could have the chemistry that he has with you, with another woman. There is a lot of that. And once I like accepted that, it's fine. But there's times where I think other women might be a little too confident in that. In their position in the pecking order. You know, I've tried to write. I've written pilots for, I've been a television writer in addition to being an actor

for so many years. And I've written so many pilots about that relationship, about the relationship. between either the gay guy and his straight sister or the gay guy and his gay best friend, the gay guy and his straight best male friend. These are dynamics that we don't always see dramatize. Will and Grace, of course, did it so beautifully. But I love to see those, the way in which those relationships foster aspects of our lives that we don't normally see on TV.

And it's true. So your kids are now 18 and 21. 18 and 21. And so you were definitely like at the forefront of the gay dad, L.A. movement where you could be out and about. It's not a secret. It's nothing weird. Kids understand that their friend has two dads instead of a dad and mom. It took a little bit though. Tell me like what were some of the challenges.

Back in the day when we were, you know, Donna would walk through an airport. A lot of questions of like, where's their mom? People would come up to us. Oh, like in other places. We would be traveling somewhere and they would assume that they would try to figure out what's going on. Yeah. It wouldn't be as commonplace as it is now. Modern family had not been a TV show.

Oh, you're before modern family. Yeah. So the notion of two men having a baby on a plane in a restaurant, on a bus, on a boat, on a goat, with a mouse, in a house, all those things did not exist yet. Yeah. Or if they did, they were unique to Los Angeles in New York and Chicago and San Francisco, the big cities. So oftentimes, and I'd get really, Don would use it as an opportunity because he's nicer than I am to just educate. And I would be annoyed. I'd be like, you know, none of you, you know, well, you just assume, you assume that this can't be my baby because I'm not a woman.

You know, I was very defensive back in the day. Because I felt confident that we're going to nurture this baby and she's going to get fed and I'm going to change her diapers. And why are you assuming that we're holding it for the mom who's clearly in the restroom? Right. You know, like, where's the mom? Well, you know, a lot of that question. And did your daughter ever? Like, how did that come as she got older?

Did you ever feel like you needed to have a strong woman in her life or no? Well, I did. You know, we have a lot of female friends a lot around the house that god mothers and my sister is an important, really important to me. She lives on the East Coast, but Don's got two sisters on the West Coast. And we had a nanny and who has been in our lives since the kids were. born and is still in their lives and is the closest woman to my kids in our family that in addition to all of our friends and sisters who were female figures in their lives that was really important and guys straight guys in their lives that could actually throw a ball I do

I do a pretty good job but not nearly what others could do yeah you know when when Jonah I have a clearly straight six foot three inch 18 year old son who is nothing like me yeah nothing like me when did when did he come out when straight when did he come out of straight yeah when he was born i knew the minute in in diapers there's another chapter in my book called bam bam i used to call jonah bam bam because i don't know if you know the show like flintstones he would walk he would bound down the hallway like a destroyer in a way that just made me feel like he was going to steal my lunch money you know what i mean Like I was like, this guy's going to bully me. I can just tell and he's only two.

I loved him to death and he was so cuddly and so amazing. But he was like, that kid, there's no way. And, you know, it was just clear. It was clear pretty early on when he was biting his toasts into the shape of a revolver that I was like, this is not something I ever did. I had a joke of my act that, you know, you would study this thing, like, you know, introduce your kids to, you know, Barbies or whatever. And I'm like, yeah, but if you have a certain kind of boy,

They will beat the shit out of each other with the Barbies, and they will make a chicken, a gun. They'll make a gun out of a chicken nugget. I remember sometimes there would be chicken nuggets that had a shape of a gun. Yeah. And they'd get so excited. Because they'd notice it. Yeah, they would notice it.

It's in the DNA. You can't teach that. There's no way we were teaching that. My son was driving. We were going out to Lakeita. And there was a train going by. And I go, you know, that was always so interesting that you and your brother, as little kids, Thomas of the train, were so into trains.

I'm like, you know, my daughter that I raised, she's not my biological daughter, she's my stepdaughter. She wasn't into the trains. No. I wasn't into the trains. Why a train? It's nature. The nature, nurture thing, I can tell you right now because I've had in a 21 year, 22-year experiment. It's nature 100% nurture zero in the battle.

Maybe not zero. Nurture is important. But nature is, there's so much about my kids that is so, that it was, predetermined by the DNA of their birth mom and by generations before them. Right. And, you know, we, our kids are our kids, and I can't imagine anyone else being our kids, and obviously we love them, as though they, as though I birth them out of my own loins. But I don't recognize myself in my kids.

There's not a quality or a gesture or a look in their eye that reminds me of anything in my lineage. And same with Don. They're really unique individuals. By the way, every kid is. That's probably the biggest lesson I learned. You know, the control and power we think we have over our kids when they're one, two, three, four, five, what they're going to eat, what you want them to eat, what you want them to be, where you want them to go to school, what you want them to be interested in. All this stuff that we want for them is none of our business.

And as it turns out, they are who they are and are going to emerge as that regardless. No much, how much Julian Andrews we played in our house, my kid was going to eventually play, you know, whatever the video games. Yeah, yeah. You know, what's also interesting as they get older and I've said this and then I saw like someone do a video, like TikTok on or whatever, is they're not thinking about you the way we think about them. No. And they're never going to. No. And I have to think God, I have a good memory.

And I loved my parents very much and wanted them to be, you know, happy. I didn't like when they fought. They have passed and everything. But like when I was in college, I remember like they were realtors. And my dad like sends me this big package of like photos. And so I'm only at SC. Like I'm living in Woodland Hills. And he sends me the flyer of their latest listing.

Like, isn't this great? You know? And I was like, and what a bitch. Because the sales of this house are paying for my USC. But I was kind of like, oh my god, Dad. Why are you sending me your real estate? Isn't that so funny? And I'm just like, oh my God.

And sometimes I just always have to remind myself that. Like, they are not like going, God, I hope mom's like having a really great day today. They take us for granted. And by the way, oddly enough, it feels like absolute shit to be taken for granted. You so want them to want to be with you and see you and know how your day was and be proud of you when you do things that you want them to be proud of. they really, you know that you have raised them to feel completely comfortable and safe because they take you for granted. Exactly.

That's what they say. They say, like it's when your kid behaves badly with you, but then it's on better behavior with even grandma or somebody else. It's like because they are so comfortable with you. Right. That if they feel like a meltdown's coming, they can have a meltdown. Yes. That's right.

That's right. I mean, believe me, my kids treat me like absolute dirt most of the time. And I wonder why I don't have an HR. office at my at my house so that I could I could file a claim almost every day I would because the ways in which I allow them to talk to me is not really something that would fly in the real world yeah but that I always have to remember healthy attachment healthy attachment healthy attachment like because I read early on that like their ability to feel like they can get angry and let you know how they feel or tell you to get out of the room or tell you that they hate you

because you know that they don't. The freedom to tell you that they hate you is not something that you need to squeeze out of them and say, don't ever speak to me like that again. It's like it's actually a sign that they feel safe, that they know that despite how they're feeling and what they're saying to you, that they know you'll never leave them.

I saw this thing that they said, imagine if you were to tell someone who's 25, hey, this person is going to pay for the next 20 years, they're going to pay for your room, you're bored, your food. All you have to do is return their call and be nice to them. Wouldn't you do it? And everyone's like, yeah. And I'm like, well, that was your parents. A hundred percent. How do you think all this is happening? Do not think that this is, it just appears, you know, and I'm such a sucker. Like, I'm making my kid. My, Jonah's 18, he can make his

own breakfast 100%. But I love, for whatever reason, I love making breakfast. I love making breakfast. And I have to own it. For a long time, I was like, oh my God, the thanks I get. Like, I was up early. making pancakes. Who asked me to make pancakes? Nobody. Who loves making pancakes? Me. I was doing it for me. And I continue to do it for me. And there's a joy that comes out of a giant man that you raised being fucking hungry. I know. And eating food. I agree with you. I totally agree with you. That's because I don't get it in other ways with him. Although I took him fishing this weekend and that should have been a documentary in and of itself. But I mean, honestly, I'm so like literally, I didn't want to touched the bait. It was so disgusting, like giant defrosted squid. And I didn't have gloves.

So I was using, we were near a park. And so you know those dispensers that give you doggy bags out of the dispenser? I was using two doggy bags around my hands trying to manipulate this squid onto a hook. It was not a pretty picture. Do they know growing up, did they like care that you guys were a big deal in Hollywood or? I think that they're really not showbiz kids in any, like they, I think they like the perks. Yeah. They like the perks. They love meeting Lisa.

They call her Aunt Lisa. Would you take them for like the kid movie premieres and stuff like that? I did take them to some kid movie premieres along the world. I would do that too. They didn't, they were fine. They didn't really, my daughter doesn't love being photographed. My son, as it turns out now as he's older, kind of likes a little bit of the glamour. Yeah.

I took him onto a red carpet for the accountant too. with Ben Affleck's movie. And last year, and he had the time of his life. He was on that red carpet and they were yelling, Jonah, Jonah, do you ever smile? And he said, nope. And everyone laughed. And I posted it on Instagram and he got such a kick out of it. So he's got a little bit of a showman inside of him.

My daughter is not that into it. And they won't watch anything that I'm in. I mean, they watched me in one episode of Superstore 25 times. I don't know why they thought it was so funny. but not an episode of scandal, not an episode of, I think they liked the Baker and the Beauty. I did a serious call.

They're not watching the comeback. They're not watching, they came to the comeback premiere with me, which was a little bit of a fight, but I really, it meant a lot to me. And I told them, you're going to be doing this for me.

Yeah. And I would love for you join me, and they did. And the comeback's not their cup of tea. Yeah. But they came for me. And I was so, here's the truth of it.

I'm such a softie. Everything makes me cry. Everything makes me cry. Me too. We stepped onto the red carpet when the car arrived and my publicist met me and I saw my kids and my husband standing there waiting for me to join them for the photo and I burst into tears. I had to step away and get myself together and I was like, oh my God, I can't believe this is happening right now with all these cameras like grabbing me and I got my act together. I got back on there and my daughter put her arm around me and I felt her rubbing my back to soothe me from my stress. and I almost lost it again.

It was so sweet. It was so sweet. They were so supportive. Do you feel like in the gay community, like, that you guys being that you're kind of like the big brothers to maybe like younger gay couples that are thinking about like having kids or whatever, have you, do you think there's more of a shift going towards parenthood?

Or do you think just like straight couples and women, a lot are choosing, I don't want to, I don't have to be a parent. Like it was such like a, it was such a positive thing. And it was, I feel like it was like pushed on them the way it was pushed on like, like my mom being like, I got the, I got it at the church. You're going to be married before you're 30. Like the date. Isn't that nice? Yes. And I was like, oh, I guess that is nice. I guess I will be married two weeks before I'm 30. Like how weird now. Like who cares if I got married at 31 or not married at all? No, good for you that you waited that long. My God. Yeah. Do you think? There was a, I have noticed a shift. I'm actually noticing a little bit of a bounce back at this point because I'm old enough now that we were a little bit ahead of. the curve. There were a few guys ahead of us that were real role models to us. Yeah. We were sort of

the role models to many. Yeah. It is now part of every conversation. There are so many young gay guys in their 20s that know they want marriage and a baby as part of the package right up front. There are so many more 25 to 30 year old gay guys who are looking for partners for the purposes of marriage and children in a way that did not happen when I was 25. 100%. And, and you are looking. And And now there's even a little bit of a shift back a little bit where it's like, I'm 25, but I kind of don't want to feel pressured just because I'm a gay guy who may want to find my guy. Why do I have to get married? And why do I have to have kids? You don't.

Right. Like I kind of remember that, you know, like the glory of like the greatest thing about two gay guys is double income, no kids. Yes. You're smart. You're successful. You can have this great life. It sounds dreamy, doesn't it? And travel around.

Oh, my God. you can have a third and not get them pregnant something that a straight couple can't really fuck around with like a third dude or a dog or you could have your fun and no one's getting pregnant no like the biggest problem the biggest problem about heterosexual

cheating is that the wife could get pregnant with someone else's baby or this guy could get a baby so I'm like it is kind of a beautiful thing if it you know so but then you throw in kids and family and so I'm like oh I want wonder if more gay guys aren't like, hey, you know, this lifestyle that became like she can cool before gay marriage was legal, like, this is pretty good over here. Well, you know, just it's all age-related.

Like, I grew up at a time and I was coming out of the closet at a time that was just post the AIDS crisis. And so the notion of what it means to be gay and say you're gay and even sex and promiscuity, it was very hard to be sex positive when I was coming out because we were on the tail end of a horrible, horrible plague that was blamed on sex positivity and promiscuity. And so your approach to sexuality was my approach to sexuality was completely hindered by having been 15 to 25 during that decade. Younger people now and the last five, six years of so much sex positivity and thankfully on the shoulders of those who have made AIDS something that is

treatable and is you know there are drugs now that people can take so that it's not as much of a threat right of course the notion of that being something that can liberate a gay man from having to pick one partner or even a couple from having to not have an open relationship and have AIDS be the reason why they don't want to go that route or STDs the fact that that there is a a move these days with young people towards sex positivity allows for people to make decisions that are more about, I want to enjoy my partner and enjoy sexuality and enjoy freedom. I don't know if I want to bring a child onto the planet. But there was a decade in there where the fact that it was possible and that gay marriage

was possible and that adopting and surrogacy and having children and all these what people call heteronormative conventions were possible for young gay kids who always thought of it as not even a possibility. Right. Or that would be the sad thing of when a child came out where the mother would be like, I guess I'll never be a grandparent. And that's a hundred percent, not the case. But now there's probably a lot of pressure on gays that don't have kids. And then they're like, well, all your gay friends are, I have two, you know, two people that. Grandparents, grandparents want their gay kids to give them grandkids. Yeah. One hundred percent. Everybody wants to be a grandparent. So we live in a different time now. And hopefully, like, ultimately, I think you only should be a

parent if that's something that you really, really want. And I think it's a gift to not want it. It's a gift to not want it. And to have done it and not be able to take it back is really unfair. Yeah. You know, I love my kids with everything and I love that I became a parent. I'm sure with all your funny stories and your book, you must have wanted to this to be, this could be a show.

I mean, your situation, I mean, I'm sure you've gone down. I've tried to adapt. Yeah, yeah. My book was optioned a couple of times, just like little stories within it, because it's a series of stories. Ways to sort of tell this story in multiple ways for television. I've gone down that path. I mean, visually, it's just so easy to see. Like, I literally can just, I see the kitchen.

I agree with you. I see the da-da-da-da. I see the boy. I had one that got very close, very recently, that took three years to develop. And it was really about Don. and I, Don and me, raising our teenage daughter and then her relationship with the birth mom and how that gets integrated into the life of an adopted kid. I'd never seen that on television before.

And I wrote a pilot that I was really proud of. And it went down the path for three years, different incarnations of it. And then never happened. I had a friend who was adopted and she kind of had a famous story. Sorry, I finished her. No, no, no, I'm saying it didn't happen and it was painful. It's hard when you tell a story that personal that you care that much about it and then it doesn't wind up a show. I mean, and that's that there's something interesting elements like you said that haven't been played out.

The adoptive child, the birth mother, the gay, the gay couple, the kid that's not like the gay couple, like has its own thing. Like, but I, I, years ago, I had a friend and she found out she was adopted, didn't know for a big part of her life. she was adopted, found the adoptive parents who actually gave her up her adoption and then did get married and had two more. Yeah. And we're still together. Yeah. And then found them and brought them out to LA and it was a little bit like a modern day Beverly Hillbilly type of thing with adoption and and then her being in Hollywood. And I thought it was the freshest fish out of water kind of story. Totally. And we went down the whole of pitching on it didn't go either. Yeah. But I still think that is just, you know, and it takes some stigma and all that away for, like, the more that we see in

media, the more it's like, this isn't a weird thing. And also talk about the trauma of it. Listen, no matter how you slice it, no matter how much love there is, moving both ways, the love that it takes for someone to sacrifice their baby and want to find a family to raise it, and the love that that family gives to that child, no matter what, no matter what, there are feelings attached to all of it. When you meet your birth mom and then you see that years later, maybe she got pregnant too early in her life and she wasn't settled and she couldn't possibly have had the means emotionally, maturity-wise, financially at that time.

And then 10 years later, she was able to do it. And then she had kids of her own. But the kids who were placed in an adoption plan 10 years earlier meet them and are like, oh, so you could do it now, but you couldn't do it then. Like you were willing to just and no matter what, there are always feelings that have to be. And I always feel like being able to dramatize that, find the humor in that and also find the humanity in that. And how do we talk about it so that there's no shame involved and that no one's getting their

feelings hurt? Yes, it's true. All that love does exist. And yes, you were loved and yes, you were wanted. But yes, it must really hurt when you think about what it must feel like to know the facts that you were part of an adoption plan. And speaking of that as a stepmother, who, you know, we were,

had her right when she was born and we did share with the mother and there's a whole juicy story that I've talked about that in my books and on my podcast and Patreon, but she's 26 now and doing great. And then, you know, and then there comes a time where, you know,

we're raising her full time, you know, as, as, and she's always called me moms and she was like, you know, could say the words. and people would always be so shocked. She's like, Mom. Yeah. You know, I'm like, yeah, like, kids want to feel normal. And if everybody else in the house is calling me mom, she's going to call your mom too.

And it doesn't take anything away from the biological mom. Like, she's just a kid. Like, when people are like, we're doing a court order that the kid can't call the new girlfriend mom. I'm like, the kid is four. Give them a fucking break. Like, give them a fucking break. I was so threatened by the idea of referring to the birth mom as mom because I'm like, oh, I don't want it to be confusing. Like, we're the two parents.

We're the parents raising these kids. We're two dads. But we should refer to the birth mom as the birth mom, and because that's what she is. And let's be really accurate about it. And your siblings, you know, that are your birth siblings as opposed to, I mean, my daughter is my son's birth sibling. But so we're the two twins who live in Wisconsin. Like they're also birth siblings. And like, should we use the words and what words should we use so that we don't make it awkward?

It's like the only thing that's awkward is this conversation. Yeah. There's nothing awkward about it. And when my son started referring to his birth mom, his mom, and it's like, I just got a call for mom. And he loves saying mom. And he loves referring to her his mom. And he loves the fact that he has a mom. And she lives where she lives.

And he talks to her when he talks to her. And it doesn't take away the fact that we're his dad's. It, you know, to take your personal threat away from it, it gives them so much freedom. And as the adult, I always say, you have to be the adult in the situation. Yes. And your feelings come last. Yes. Because so if you're the dad that, who's broke up with his wife and the teenage daughter is being a little bitch and she missed your brunch date.

You don't call her and call her up and say you're being a little pig, Alec Baldwin. Like you say, you know, you go, okay, we're going to make another plan. You're going to suck up your feelings. Yes. Because when she gets to be 23, 24, she's going to be very proud to say I'm having brunch. with my dad. Yes, she is. Because she's going to have a friend who doesn't have a dad. Listen. And so it's like, just give it a minute and just be the consistent thing. Be the parent. And it'll all work out, you know, because it's like what I was thinking about

stepmom is like, you know, there's a million videos on TikTok about a guy going to your stepfather. And dad, I changed my name to you and everyone's crying. But the stepmother, I've judged with my act, is always like, who's this whore vixen? I'm like, oh, really? You think as a stepmom, this was a fun time to marry, you know, some broken man that got divorced and you took on the three kids and a con and you're like constantly looked at like you made it like the jack. Like the stepmom gets absolutely no credit. And my goal in life is to change what Disney did to the step mom to make it that it is, it isn't. It's not somebody who had a plan to steal a human from, you know, it's always like a like a plot. It's like this woman chose to love your dad.

Yeah. And he had kids. You know, I mean, granted, there's bad. Step dads are bad. Step-mothers are bad bylaw. Of course. But like just the trajectory of just always being like this horrible negative thing where it's just like. When you feel threatened, your first thought almost always, I read this in a book, is the child inside of you reacting.

Almost always, as a grown adult, when you're feeling the rage and the threat and the need to have the words be right. and to tell your kids, that first impulse is almost always the child within you who is looking for a parent who's also you to quiet them down. And it's really important to be the parent to the kid inside you who's causing trouble and say, yo, you know what? Take a deep breath. Take a time out. It's okay. It's going to be okay. And you parent yourself so that you can parent your kid because otherwise the kid inside you is is parenting your kid and that should be your next book parent yourself before you so you can parent your kid so you can parent your kid because and we all do it we're all victims of it I always know that when I'm getting threatened in a really big way I'm like

the the petulant kid inside of me is getting threatened yeah and somebody's gonna who's gonna parent that kid it's me right gonna call my mom who's 86 and ask her to parent the child in me it's it's it's on me to parent the kid who's reacting badly right now yeah And take a time out and deep breath and go into this thing like the grown up you are so you can be a parent. Yeah. But it's hard to learn how to parent ourselves. Are you kidding? No one's doing it.

I have so enjoyed talking to you. And I love and I remember your book. Like I forgot that you, I remember I had that book and I forgot that you were the author of does this baby make me look straight? Yep. Such a great title and so funny. The answer is no, by the way. And where can they follow you? Oh, follow me on Instagram.

Instagram at Dan Bukotinsky. I have a right here. I think all my social is just basically my name. And they can still get the book. The book is on Audible. I read it. I recommend that way just because they're sort of written as fun stories to be told. So you may as well have me read them to you or on Amazon.

And then, of course, the comeback is every Sunday on HBO. And if you've not seen it, I'm going to go back and watch season one and two because I love it so much. It's a good watch. It's a good watch. But it's just so brilliant. And as of tomorrow, this movie I did called The Highest Stakes is a Paramount movie that we did in Bulgaria exactly a year ago. It's the wildest ride. Seth Green and Kevin Dillon and myself.

And it's a great cast. So it's a comedy. It's a, it is the only way I can describe it is Willie Wonka meets the Shining. It is a dark comedic poker movie. Oh, love. That's also a wild ride. It's a wild ride. And what's it called again?

It's called the highest stakes. On Paramount. On Paramount. You can probably, you can download it from Paramount as of tomorrow. Tonight's the premiere. That is so awesome. Congratulations. Thank you.

Thank you. I had the best time. Thank you for coming. I could talk to you forever. I know. I'm going to hit you up. You're going to come back. We'll do like hot topics or some light gossipy stuff now that we know your whole life

story. Thank you, everyone. All right, you guys. And you know the juiciest stuff when you're like, I wonder how Heather feels about this or why Heather mentioning this juicy thing about these people in her life, I do. It will be on Patreon, but only on Patreon. So you go to Heather McDoll.net and you can listen if you, if you're new, there's well over 1,100 episodes, always commercial free and all the juiciest stuff. And it's every

Friday as well as bonus episodes over there. So check it out. Thank you, Heathertall.com.