Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald - Kim Goldman Shares All

Episode Date: July 25, 2024

Kim Goldman, the sister of Ron Goldman who was murdered with Nicole Brown Simpson answers all of Heather’s questions from what it was like to be in court for years during both trials, how she first heard the news, the day of the verdict and when OJ was sent away for 9 years. The aftermath with her family. Her confrontations with Marcia Clark, the lead detective, Judge Ito, Kato, The Browns and the press. So so juicy! • Visit https://Sonobello.com/summer and listeners can access the exclusive summer savings event featuring the best pricing of the year • Go to https://Booking.com This summer you can book whoever you want to be on Booking.com, Booking.yeah! Book today on the site or app. • Go to https://ProlonLife.com/JUICYSCOOP Right now, Prolon is offering Juicy Scoopers 15% off their 5-day nutrition program. Shop Juicy Scoop Merch https://juicyscoopshop.com  Get EXTRA Juicy on Patreon https://www.patreon.com/juicyscoop  Follow Me on Social Media Instagram: https://www/instagram.com/heathermcdonald  TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@heathermcdonald  Twitter: https://twitter.com/HeatherMcDonald Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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She talks Hollywood tales, her real life Mr. Snake with serial data and serial system. You'll be addicted and addicted fast to the number one tabloid real life podcast. Listen in, listen up, woo woo, Hannah McDonald, Juicy Scoop. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. Hope you're having the best time ever.

I know I am. Remember you guys go to HeatherMcDonald.net. That's where you're gonna join my Patreon every Friday and also special juice I've been dropping all month. So make sure you get on that. And of course go there for my dates because right around the corner this weekend, I will be in San Diego July 27th

with the hilarious Julie Goldman. I'm so excited to be there, looking cute, laughing with you guys for a fabulous juicy scoop experience. That is at heathermcdonald.net. Now for this interview, I wanted to bring one that back up that you guys have talked over and over about. Let's listen to it again. Here we go. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. Well, I am very excited for this guest because she has a hit podcast, which was done so well, which I didn't listen to all of it, but I've listened

to a lot of it. It's Confronting OJ, Kim Goldman, sister of Ron Goldman. And I mean, I just feel like there's, but I can't believe this is the first time I'm meeting you because there's so much connection and I'm doing your incredible charity this Thursday, which this will air Thursday. So if you're listening to this and you're anywhere near the Santa Clarita, Valencia area and you'd love to see a wonderful comedy show, I will be there performing. Let's go down to Lori Kilmartin who's been on my show, which people love.

It's Steve Simone and Jimmy Schubert. Yes, he's hilarious. They're both, everyone's hilarious. And you were just telling me what the, it's a nonprofit, what the money goes to. Right, so the Youth Project, we've been open since 2000, and we are active on all of the junior high and high school campuses out in Santa Clarita, and we provide free mental health to teens. So kids that are dealing with depression and suicide, substance abuse, domestic violence, sexual assault,

I mean all the stuff that, if we're honest, is Yes. That we dealt with when we were kids. Our kids are dealing with that and so we do one-on-one and support groups. I mean it's just so important because I don't think there's you know it's just such a tragedy when someone is not aware that their child is hurting and it gets to the point where they hurt themselves and so that's wonderful. Well I mean being both parents you know you're acutely aware of what's going on, hopefully. And if you're not, there's other people that can help too.

And I think there's no shame in asking. One of the things that we see a lot is if our adults can't cope, our kids can't. So I bypass the parents sometimes because they're not astute enough to realize that they might be struggling. So we focus on the kids. And I love that they come in wanting

help on their own volition. I mean, that's amazing. That's awesome. Thanks. So let me just tell you about, first of all, I was living in Brentwood when the murder happened. I lived right off of Granville. I eventually rented a house that was

on the corner of Dorothy and Bundy like a year and a half later in which people Constantly came and took photos. I hung out at Mazzaluna I knew the one the one other waiter that was often be interviewed that had like the beard Yeah, yeah, I would see Nicole in her Ferrari late for a date I mean, I was just did you know my brother? I did not know your brother, but I remember going to Cheesecake Factory

and seeing the hot guy, because at the Cheesecake Factory, which is in Brentwood, they had this menu with a lot of ads, and he was a model, and he was modeling a suit. And so I remember the whole thing, and being like, oh my God, and I remember hearing about it, and being like, oh my God, I remember hearing about it and being like, yeah, I think I recognized him from seeing around because that Starbucks right there

was where I went all the time. And it was like people like my age and your brother's age, like in our early 20s. And then there were these like hot moms that were like divorced moms, like the Faye Resnick's. And I would this, and I would like invite some of those moms to my standup shows. Like it was kind of an internet, like it kind of an, so I was sort of obsessed, you know, with my God, and it's right here. And, and then of course, as the, as the trial and then the evidence and everything went on, it was, you know, riveting like anybody else. And so I was working in real estate with my parents and we'd work out of the house. And thank God my parents were as obsessed because we watched the trial every single

day. And I mean, I have so many questions for you. I mean, the first question is, what was it like to wake up every day and go to that courthouse? Every time I watch like a Dateland or anything, I'm like, what is that like where that's your routine for like months? Like, what do you wear? What are you eating? Do you eat the same thing every day? Do you pack your own lunch? Do you walk? Did you go into the bathroom and like run into like OJ's adult daughter? Like, that's what I want. That's, I have so many questions, but that was just one of like your experience watching you, you being just a couple

years younger than I am when I was watching it going, how is this girl ever gonna like have a life after this? Well I don't have an answer to the second part. I can tell you that, you know, I was living in San Francisco in my last semester of school for psychology. I was working at Wells Fargo. I had an internship at a psychiatric hospital. I was quote unquote in love and in a relationship. When my brother died, I moved home. I really had nothing except my suitcase and my cat.

I mean, I left all my belongings in San Francisco. And so did you get the news? Did your dad have to call you in San Francisco? Yeah. I was at work that day, and my shift was ending at whatever, 6 o'clock. And I normally took the bus or the Muni home. My girlfriend Amy drove me. And so I walked in the house around 6.30 and my boyfriend at the time, Joe, was standing

there and yelling at me. Well, not yelling, he was urging me strongly to call my dad because my dad had called. And he knew. He knew. My dad found out around five o'clock. My brother was identified earlier in the day, but they didn't make a notification to our family because no one was home. And so it was the coroner, Claudia Ratcliffe,

that finally got a hold of my stepmom because she finally answered the phone after Meza Luna had been bugging us all day and told Patty, you know, did you hear the news? She said, I don't know what you're talking about. You didn't hear anything on Brentwood. I don't know what you're talking about.

Do you know who Nicole Brown Simpson is? I don't know who you're talking about. And then she said the other victim was your son. And Patty was so confused. And then my dad walked in the house at that exact moment that Patty was freaking out and she yelled, Fred, you have to get on the phone. Something happened to Fred. I mean to Ron. Same thing. Did you hear anything on the news? Well,

my dad had been listening to the news all day because he's a salesman in LA, he spent a lot of time in your car, even just going to the grocery store, it's 20 minutes. So he was in the car and had been listening to talk radio all day. And so he heard all about the murders. Yeah, because I remember hearing about it in the afternoon too. And I remember when they said, it's OJ Simpson's ex-wife. And I was like, oh my God, that's late for a date. That's that hot blonde with the perfect, she was really physically fit.

And I remember seeing her back and being like, God, that chick works out. I'm like, why are these women in better shape than us? That's what I was like. So I was like, oh my God, this is so, and I'm going, and it was around the corner from my house. So I'm like, why are these women in better shape than us? That's what I was up to. So I was like, oh my god, this is so, and I'm going, and it was around the corner from my house. So I'm like, wait, what? And I remember immediately thinking even back then,

husband did it. Like, what the hell? But we didn't. I mean, my dad, so when they told my dad that it was his son, then within about, I don't know, 30, 45 seconds basically, they told my dad that it was his son, then within about, I don't know, 30, 45 seconds, basically they released my brother's picture. And so my dad called me,

and I obviously wasn't home for about an hour and a half. So, and then I had seen a bit of it on the news, but I didn't know what I was watching, and I hadn't paid any attention. And it wasn't really anywhere on the news up in San Francisco the way that apparently it was down here. So I packed a bunch of crap in my bag, a bunch of underwear. I always joke that I had no idea. I'd never been to a funeral. I didn't know what to wear. So my boyfriend was walking behind me,

fixing everything in my bag because I just was kept throwing more underwear in. And he was like, okay, let's put some pants in there. And he was trying to help me prepare. I also always think about when I hear these tragedies, again, what is it like to be on the flight, to be waiting at the airport, to load, and this is what you're doing. I can't even imagine. In San Francisco, so I flew out of Oakland. It was the last flight of the night. We hopped in the car and booked it to the airport because we needed to get home.

And I remember we parked the car and I was walking through the parking lot and there was this gentleman that was, I don't know what he was doing in the parking lot. He worked for the airport and I was disheveled and running and he's like, man, he's like slow down. Just kind, he was like just let me smell the roses kind of a thing. Just no hurry, you'll make it, you'll be fine. And I was bawling. Did you say it?

No, I didn't say anything. I was so confused as to what was happening and this is you know just two hours later after I'd heard and then you know I get into the airport I go through the security thing and I take off my belt my shoes I'm just undressing I'm crying I mean it was just and then we finally get on the plane and I'm balling and then the flight attendant she said are you okay and I said no like and then the flight attendant, she said, are you okay? And I said, no. Like I just, I couldn't put a sentence together. And then we got off the flight, my boyfriend and I, and you know, this was before 9-11,

so your people could wait for you at the gate. So I came down, it was like the longest path to get to the lobby or whatever, and my dad was standing there and then I just fell apart and I wasn't expecting my dad to come he was going to send a family friend to pick us up and So that was just a mess and then it got in the car and KFI was on the radio And it said you know today's news Nicole Brown Simpson and and her friend were found slaughtered to death in Brentwood, and that was the first time that I had heard it.

So to answer the rest of your question, going to court all the time, it was my job. I mean, it was—it didn't feel like a job, but it was what I committed to. How many years between the civil trial and then, of course, you did the—how do you call it—the other trial? So the criminal trial and the civil trial. Oh other trial so the criminal trial in the civil trial So sorry criminal trial in the civil trial like how much how much? How many how many years was that from beginning from the moment you got the news to the moment that this the civil trial ended? Okay, so about four years. I'd say I think I think I think the civil case ended in 98 97

I'd have to go back in the calendar. Yeah, but I mean, that's amazing. And it does. It was just where I went. And so I didn't have a car. So I relied on my stepmom to take me to court or family friends, and we would carpool. Would your stepmom also go there?

Because we always just saw you and your dad. So my dad went as often as he could but he was you know working dad And he had you know, my stepmom had three kids and I know it's my other question watching it I'm like, what are they living off of if if the dad is here every day? So my dad couldn't he couldn't go every day He had to kind of pick and choose and it was really hard for my dad to be in there So he would get the debrief from me and and Patty went as often as she could but she had young kids and how many days? was the whole trial?

Like in court? It was nine and a half months. So I don't… Of court dates. Well, yeah, of court dates. Of actual appearing. I think 265 or 70 days of that was actual testimony. So with the jury sequestered for 200 days?

Yeah, 260-some odd days, yeah. Like that is crazy. Yeah, and some odd days, yeah. Like, that is crazy. Yeah, and they complain about that, you know? I mean, it's on, in the podcast. In the podcast that you talk to one juror. Yeah. And yeah, they were just dying to leave. They just were like, just how,

let's just fucking wrap this up. Yeah, and I got that sense from them early on too. I mean, I remember, you remember, I joke about it. I mean, we're raised to not judge people, not to judge people. You're not judged book by its cover, but that's all you do when you're sitting in a room of people and you can't talk to them

and they can't. So I'm watching eye rules, I'm watching gasps, I'm watching doodling and how focused they are on the person on the stand or if they, looking around like, and I'm assessing what does all that mean and you know when Marsha and Chris from the prosecution would come in you know they would kind of look the other way or you know and then when the defense team would come in they you know sit up in their seats and I was like what does that mean and I mean it's terrible

it's terrible because it goes against everything that I was raised in terms of what you you know what you assume about people and not to assume about people. And so I learned quickly that they just seemed detached from the prosecution, which gave me more relief. Yeah. So I was talking to my sister, who is a criminal defense attorney, that I was going to see you today. And I go, do you have any questions for her?

And she's like, you know, she's a defense attorney, but she is like, there's times when she's doing something and she's like, wow, I'm impressed with the prosecution. Or was there any time where you were like, you know, about the defense, like, wow, that's shit? There were a lot of, I can't tell you exactly how many, but there were often times that I'd think, that seems like that could be plausible,

and it starts to mess with that whole reasonable doubt. And I'm like, God, if I'm questioning that, then the jury must be questioning that. And that can't be good, and because of all the other evidence, it can't be this, but my God, my mind is starting to wonder if that's a plausible solution or resolution to something,

and I was frustrated with myself for thinking that way. And I, you know, I was 22 at the time. I'd never been inside of a courtroom. I probably maybe got one speeding ticket at that point. Like I just went to court thinking this is where truth prevails. This is where you go to, you know, to be honorable and live with integrity. And so I didn't think that early on that what the defense was doing was manipulating the law, being disrespectful.

Right, which was basically the biggest thing was to try to say that the cops and the evidence, they were racially motivated to get this black man and plant evidence. And they were allowed to do all that. And I think I didn't expect that because I'm thinking well You don't have any proof you can't just say those things But yes, you can you can because that casts reasonable doubt and that flies in the face of reason for me because that's not what the Quorum is supposed to be about it's right. I'm gonna search for the truth. And so I learned quickly I well, I tried to learn quickly how to realign my thinking but again

It goes against everything that I was taught to believe in. And so I was super frustrated because I would think that your sister would say this too. You bend and you push as far as you need to to make sure that your client has their fair day in court. I think that this set of attorneys pushed far beyond moral and ethical boundaries and guidelines and they were well within their authority to do that because they had a judge These episode is brought to you by LEGO Fortnight. LEGO Fortnight is the ultimate survival crafting game found within Fortnite. It's not just Fortnite Battle Royale with minifigures.

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you said that you requested to speak to him and then he wrote you an email back saying that he hopes you're doing well, but he promised one journalist this interview. And I tell you this, but I am the journalist. Just kidding. Oh, so he's in the hallway? I'm gonna be the-

Day in your life. He is going to Juicy's Coupe first for Judge Ito. Sweet, yeah. I mean, when you think, when we look back, the fact that like, and I love Jay Leno, but that he had like the Dancing Judge Edo's. I was telling my husband that I go, I just like what the fuck was wrong with our country? I mean, our country's fucked up now. But I mean that that that it became such truly a circus that

you had a joking bit about two incredible humans, a mother, a son that were murdered. two incredible humans, a mother, a son that were murdered. And you have these dancing Eidos on your show. I have to tell you that that part still trips me out. I mean, I was talking to Kelly before we started about, I started watching Billions. And in an episode the other day, they referred to the civil case, but by name. Like usually it's just, there's like a suggestion to it. But this was like, I'm going to take him down like the Goldman's took down OJ.

And I was like, wait, what? Like it was situate. And then the other character is like, well, he got away with it. If he can get away with it, then I can get. I'm like, this is just a trip. And this is just on TV. And so I catch myself even 25 years later, I'm still so fascinated with how much it's referred to.

It's so much part of our part of pop culture. It was not just part of pop culture because when I'm speaking to Shannon, she says, you know, my sister has been an attorney for like 25 years now. And she says every seminar after seminar, they refer to the cases because they were so. And I appreciate that. And I'm grateful for that. And I think throughout the, and we have a bonus episode that's coming up

I think actually this week with Robin Sachs. Who is Robin Sachs? Robin Sachs is a, she's a prosecutor from the DA's, or she's a past prosecutor from the DA's office. She's a social worker, domestic violence expert. That name is very familiar. Yeah, I think she's out in this world. Yes.

But she talked a lot about how so many of the laws changed and the policies within law enforcement and within the courtroom changed to benefit the system to make it better. I know that there was a lot of movement in the domestic violence arena to help. So I appreciate that, but the jokes and the other side of it, the humor, I just,

that was hard. It's hard to be watching something and, you know, now my son is old enough to be paying attention, so he hears things and he sees things. He's like, wait, did they just? Like, yeah, babe. And it's just a trip because people yell at me for not being able to get over it and I should just be moving on. I should find closure, just get over it, blah, blah, blah. But I'm like, do you function in the world because it's everywhere. So even if I don't want to, I don't get to because the whole rest of the world's doing it and I'm just like the recipient to it.

And we watched the entire thing. I guess we watched it on Court TV. Was that what we watched it? And also the I guess we watched it on Court TV. Was that what we watched it? And also the Menendez trial was on Court TV. So after that, did they stop doing that where we could watch the whole thing? No. Court TV is just making a comeback, actually. Court TV was on for quite a few years.

And who decides? Who says, yes, this can be on Court TV or no, it cannot? I don't know. I guess if a case has enough sex appeal or enough, you know. So is that somewhat above like a Judge Edo or does Judge Edo decide to bring in the cameras? Judge Edo can rule whether or not to let the cameras in the courtroom.

So once the judge decides that cameras can be let in and the media petitions or does whatever they need to do to get a pool camera, however that works. And I remember that all went down and he agreed to let the cameras in. And I thought that was gonna be a huge mistake, which I think in some ways it was because there was a ton of pandering for the camera.

But in hindsight, that we got the verdict we did, I appreciate because people got to watch for themselves and make a determination based on what they watched rather than listen to the pundits give their impression of the day, which wasn't always accurate. Right, true, and I do remember the moments about it. I remember when Marcia Clark did this little ballet move

to get through the, she lifted herself up and did this little dance to get over, and I don't think she was doing it for the cameras, but I just remember. I totally remember that now that you've seen that. Yeah. And I was like, oh. And then the day which, did you watch the Ryan Murphy series? I don't know how you feel.

Obviously, you have your own opinion. I thought it was fabulous. I love the portrayal of Marcia Clark. I love the information that came out. Like the one night that Sarah Paulson is like out having a drink or something and somebody's like, well, he might be innocent. And she just goes fucking off on all the physical evidence. Like we've never had more physical evidence in this. Like, and I was like, yeah, like how is, how is it suddenly that you forget that because of the drama, the

theatrics? Yeah. And then how they're like, I remember reading like Marcia Clark has a Caesar salad with chicken every day. And I was like, actually, Caesar salads are kind of fattening. How is she staying so thin? Every single, it was like in every tabloid and of course the hard copy, which was a very popular show at the time.

Like a strip show every night at like seven at night. And there's a connection to that because with Kato, Kato knew my brother and sister and they were like friends. And he, and so when all this went down, my sister goes, you know we have a video, like they hadn't kept in touch with Kato, but it was a couple years back. My brother-in-law had a restaurant downtown

near the convention center. And one of Kato's jobs was being like a person for the car show, like, hey everybody, you know, like, come. So they made friends and- Is this after the trial? This is before the trial. And so my sister is like, I, she goes, Oh my God, remember with my nephew's like extravagant four year

old birthday party, they had like some magician that like brought a tiger or something. And like they had Kato be like the MC and Kato's little daughter came. Oh, okay. Who is like probably 35 now or something or 33. She was like the age of my nephew. Sorry, I'm nervous like, my scratchy voice. And so I'm like out somewhere and I'm talking to somebody and now the trial is going or it's about to happen. All the news is coming out. And I'm talking to this girl and she's like,

oh, I work for hard copy, whatever. And I go, oh, you know, I go so weird. I go, you know, and I tell the story. I never give this girl my number. She calls my, like, I remember like listening to the voicemail, like, or the answering machine message. This is Hard Copy, I wanna talk to you. I can give you, if you can get me that video,

no one has seen Kato's daughter. If you can get me a video, no one has seen Kato's daughter. If you can get me a video of Kato's daughter, we'll pay you for it." And I was like, this is so fucking sick. What does Kato's little daughter at a party three years ago have anything? But it was new content because every night they had to do something on this show about what was going on. I think that part, you know, for us that was so frustrating. So anyway, I got $500. No, just kidding. Do you imagine?

Yes, because I laugh that like back then if you weren't offered money for your story, you were nothing. Now it's like people can post on their own, so money for your stories doesn't happen. Yeah, they won't. So, I mean, looking back then, you know, again, we were just at the beginning of cable, I mean, Court TV, we barely had CNN, I mean, it was just so new. You know, the tabloids were so popular still. Yes.

You know, but we just didn't get it. We didn't understand how far-reaching, we didn't understand how popular the, the popular, if that sounds positive, but like how obsessive people were with the case across the globe. And so I didn't, we didn't have the internet then. I mean we would just get letters,

Goldman family, Agora, California, hordes of letters that would show up, gifts that were being sent to us, blankets, I mean it was just amazing. People were so supportive and then you'd get the death threats and the stock and All that crap in there too, but I just had no idea. I was so sheltered and what we were a Part of because we would I would go to court all day. I mean was downtown LA from Agora

So you know is hours or you know through three hours a day in traffic We'd listen to talk radio listen to their interpretation and get home We put the news on I'd listen to you know Whoever was on the news that night talking about it and then you'd flip the channels and you'd see hard copy and then it was on CNN and then it was on somewhere else and then it was just we couldn't escape it and I think you know when the cases ended everybody went away and then I was like wait where everybody go because it we were so consumed by it all the time that when they stopped covering it

I was like, oh wait, something's weird. And then I started dealing with my brother's loss because I hadn't really processed it before. Right. Sometimes, yeah, there just isn't even time because your days were so full. But when you talk about her, like all that stuff was going on and I just, that's the part to me that I think I was so detached from because it was impacting so many people. So when you talk about the FX show, you know, I thought it was lame.

And I was bitter going into it because— Did they ever show someone playing you? Yeah, which was lame. Was she not cute enough? No, she wasn't cute enough. No, she—they didn't consult with us. They didn't tell us. I found out like everybody else, Marcia and Chris—Marcia and Cato got advance copies so they could watch it.

We asked for advance copies, we were shunned. Oh, that sucks. And I was really disappointed in how that all went down. I felt like, what is the point of this? Like, I don't understand what you're doing. Why do you need a dramatization? Like, do something on the up and up? And then you wonder, you know, so much of what they discussed

was supposed to be attorney-claiming privilege, so what was truthful with the things they were sharing and what was made up. Well, what were some of the things that you didn't think were accurate? I should have replayed before I came. I don't remember. There were just little things here and there. I'm like, that didn't happen. I don't—there was something about the chase scene and how he was, the night that they,

after he, the Bronco chase was in, but that scene that didn't happen, there was a scene in there with my dad and I, that didn't happen. Conversations between Marsh and I that didn't happen. Like, it was just little things that it didn't, it only bothered me, because I like to be honest. But to everybody else that just spoke to his guilt,

which I appreciated that. But I don't know, I just, the whole thing was gross. but to everybody else that just spoke to his guilt, which I appreciated that. Right. I don't know. I just, the whole thing was gross. I just remember with Connie Britton playing Faye Resnick, and I know Faye Resnick. Yeah. And her book was one of the books I read the minute it came out. And what was interesting about Faye Resnick's book, and I've said this, after 20 years later when you read it,

there was another documentary that ESPN did. 30 for 30. That was truly, if you go back to Faye Resnick's book, everything she fucking said was true. Yeah. And, but people dismissed it and dismissed her as being thirsty or whatever the word was at the time, wanted to do Playboy, whatever.

But like, you know, all this stuff leading up to his going crazy because of their tumultuous, you know, an abusive relationship and her taking him back and then her being like, no, I am done. And he being like, how dare you take me back? And then, you know, embarrass me like this, which had set him off. All of that was was in her book. Yeah. And people, you know, just saw it as like this, you know, cheesy book or whatever. And so when they had the Connie Britton playing Faye Resnick, I was like, I love Connie Britton. I go, but you were you were 35 and you look 25. So I was like, are you all annoyed that like and she and I had reached out to Faye, like would you ever, would you like to come on? And then the day that she, or like a couple days before,

she was like, you know what? It just, every time I only wanna speak about domestic violence, every time I speak anything about this, it just doesn't serve me or Nicole well. And I go, I said, don't, then forget it. Like I'm not here to give anyone a stomach ache or stress them out. You know, I'm like, I just, I just wanted the world to know that you were truthful. Like, I just feel like people didn't think that, you know, and then even when she had a little bit on Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, the one girl that was like

the, she was married, at one time she was married to, was it Marcus Allen? That Nicole had had an affair with. That came up. And I was like, well, Faye was telling the truth. Like that happened. That all added to their crazy relationship. The defense painted Faye to be the intended target that it's her fault like they really did a number on her Yeah, they tried to say that they were doing cocaine all the time and drug dealers were coming for them I got an email yesterday. I mean legit email yesterday from someone saying that it was Nicole I mean that it was Faye. I mean I get them all the time, but it was Faye that she was intended target My brother was collateral damage although

He's a drug addict and that he was the biggest drug lord in Brentwood, which is hilarious. Seriously, he's a drug lord, my brother, because he had a beeper. Welcome to Brentwood. He all did. I know, but that was the thing, that my brother had a pager,

so therefore he was the drug addict. Oh, he didn't even have a cell phone, so he wasn't that good of a drug dealer. He went to the pay phone and tried to. But I felt for Faye. I don't know what went on on and who cares if she did cocaine Like who cares right and so but what they did to her, you know I'm just saying when you talk when I was mentioning before about like the rules of efficacy and like being moral like they didn't care

Who the defense they didn't care who they took out in the process and they're and they're zealous defense of their of their client They didn't care who they took out in the process and their zealous defense of their client. They didn't care who they took out in the meantime. And you talk about Kato, I mean, that was one of our conversations in the podcast. Like he was devastated, you know? Meaning he hibernated for a year after. He just couldn't go out in public, would get spit on and cursed at.

And I think he said he had gum thrown at him. And it's damaging to people's personal and professional lives and you don't think about that. Hey everybody, my name is Bob the Drag Queen. And I'm on Xchange. And we are the hosts of Sibling Rivalry. This is a podcast where two best friends gab, talk, smack, and have a lot of fun with our black queer selves. Yeah, for sure. You know, we are family.

So we talk about everything, honey, from why we don't like hugs, to Black Lives Matter, to interracial dating, to other things. Right, Bon? Yes, and it gets messy, and we are not afraid to be wrong. So please join us over here at Silver Ivory, available anywhere you get your podcast. You can listen and subscribe for free.

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As well as creative pest control, tasty limeade recipes, and fun sex act trends. We also chat about boobs and movies and wigs and stuff, which is obviously the public service part of the podcast. So get ready for screaming, cackling, and some occasional educational moments as two massively unqualified queens talk about what it's like to be the epitome of fabulous. Go subscribe to The Bald and the Beautiful with Trixie Mattel and Katya Zolmolechkova on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening right now. And with Kato, because we were friendly after that.

And then when I started my podcast a couple of years ago, I had him on. And I said to him, people are such assholes that aren't in the business, but he wasn't like somebody that wasn't doing anything. Like he was booking stuff. Yeah, was he, you know, was he taking, you know, did he take an opportunity of Kesthouse in Brentwood, so he could go on his auditions,

but it wasn't like he wasn't talented or funny. He just hadn't made it yet. And so I said, you know, look at Kim Kardashian. She didn't make it till she did it sex tape. So like, I mean, honestly, I mean, Well, let's wait, I wanna, you know, look at Kim Kardashian. She didn't make it till she did it sex tape. So like, I mean, honestly, I mean, let's wait. I want to touch that element. But like, so I said to him, I was like, you know, did you, you know, do you ever think like, had this not happened,

had this whole thing not happened and you just went the regular route that we all did auditioning for sitcoms and trying to pitch TV shows. What, and he's like, yeah, of course. You know, in some ways people are like, the only reason we know you is because of this, but how do you know that we wouldn't have known him in a legit talent way?

People say that to me too, you know, that I'm profiting off my brother's murder, that I'm writing The Killer's Coat Tales, that we wouldn't even know who you are if this happened. I'm like, uh-huh. So am I not entitled to write a book then? Am I not entitled to speak out on victims' rights? Am I not entitled to have an opinion on something

because you might not know me if my brother didn't die? I don't understand your thinking behind that. And why is that a joy? Like, you were starting to be a psychiatrist. Your goal wasn't, you know. And so what? Like, I'm living my life. It's my story to tell.

Yeah. You know, people are like, well, everybody else is making money. And I said, and I've said nothing about that. There's nothing I can do about it. It is what it is. But why am I the only one that isn't entitled to try to do something with the platform that I've been given? I could choose to do nothing and that would be fine too, but I'm trying to do something with the platform that I'm given. I could choose to do nothing and that would be fine too,

but I'm trying to do something positive with the platform that I'm giving and the negativity that I get slung at me because of that is so frustrating. Because if I have a voice, I'm gonna use it. And people are like, well, you're profiting. I'm like, okay, I don't know what that means. I'm profiting, I'm earning a living. I also do not profit work

I've been running like yeah, this is the stuff that people get you know Speaking of speaking of the Kardashians I met them a long time ago and the first time I met them was They were they had the baby store and my friend goes you you wanna go have lunch with Chris Jenner and Courtney? And I was like, I mean, I was like, the first thing I'm gonna ask about is the trial. And I was like, oh, they probably will be offended, whatever. And I immediately sat down with them

and I was with Jillian Barbary, you do you know from the news? So she was equally obsessed, right? Yeah. So I was like, I know you probably don't wanna answer she was equally obsessed right? Yeah. So I was like I know you probably don't want to answer this but like I gotta ask you you know and it was really interesting because the time Courtney was you know early 20s and. So Courtney is like one of my stepbrothers wife's best friends which is such a weird thing so when she got married she was gonna have a

bridal shower the bachelor whatever and she's like Courtney's gonna be there do you want to come? I'm like okay I can't do this. So we didn't go Well, she didn't end up happening, but that was part of the so anyway, so Courtney but one of the things I said I was like, you know, what was that like because Chris was with Bruce at the time and Very much on the prosecution side a hundred percent, you know believed OJ was guilty. And I go in here, your ex-husband raising your teens, your children, you know, you're co-parenting these kids, is now sucked into the defense side. And what was that like? And she was just like, it was terrible. Like

we had to meet secretly to exchange the kids because people were following them. And Courtney said, Kim and I, we kind of took our dad's side because nobody else was and we felt sorry for him. Like in their world, it was not at all that he was innocent in their world. So I said to Chris, I guess, so the day that you go down there, because I remember, I remember seeing Robert Kardashian's face. I remember seeing your, you know, the hair all over your face. And like, you know, I remember seeing it like it was my own family, you know, because you

lived it. And I said, what were you guys thinking as you're driving down there? Like were you? I don't remember the Kardashians being there at all. I remember Chris and Bruce being there. Chris and Bruce. No, that's from, oh, Chris and Bruce. Oh, not the kids.

That was the other thing in the FX thing. They painted them that they were very much a staple in that courtroom. No, no, no. Chris and Bruce came to, and I remember seeing Chris's face and she goes, we, she's, what I recall her saying, and this is my memory, so like, but is that she, they were very confident he was being convicted. They were shocked. And so my question to you is when you went down that day, were you confident? Were you scared? What were you, what was your thought? I don't think I

was confident. You know, so the verdict came out the day, the verdict was told that they had it the day before, so we had to wait the full day to have it be read. And so we were sitting in a house full of people that were very convinced that because, you know, they had three and a half hours of deliberation that must mean guilty. And, you know, the pundits were all over the TV sharing their stories and insight. And I hung out in my brother's room kind of kept to myself because I wasn't sure. I sat in that courtroom every day. I didn't miss one bit of testimony. And I just wasn't sure. I knew all the evidence pointed to him, but like I said before, the jury just seemed so enamored with the defense.

The dream team. And so that day, I didn't ask anybody for their opinion. I didn't want to know anybody's opinion. We drove down to the courthouse. I remember I was sitting in a hallway on the floor where the district attorney's office was, and one of the—Furman's partner, Ron Phillips, he and I were pretty close. Furman was the detective that had, you know, that they were saying that he must have planted the evidence because he had, you know, horrible evidence of him using racial slurs and stuff

with a writer. Right, and pluggers and a lot of other things. Yeah. Yeah. So he was noturs and stuff with a writer. Right, and plucks ifs and a lot of other stuff. Yeah, so he was not turned into a designer. He wasn't very welcome in the district attorney's office anymore, but I was still close with Ron Phillips, and I don't know why we used to call each other Puppy and Kitten. It was kind of silly. But so I said, Puppy, what do you think? And he said, Kitten, I think a quittle.

And I was like, what the? And he's the only one I asked, and I didn't ask him why. And how many minutes of this before you got the real word? Just half an hour, maybe 20 minutes. It was just right before we went down and then I was in the hallway going in and one of the DA investigators, we were transported in and out of a private, not a private, like a hidden door kind of thing. And George was with me and he was pushing me into the room

and I just, I remember feeling just stuck. Like I couldn't, my body was sort of paralyzed out in the hallway and he's like, you got this. I'm like, I don't think I can do this. And he's like, you're strong, shove me in. And then the verdict was what it was. So I think, I just, I didn't, I don't know. I don't think, I don't know if I was just concerned

or worried, I don't remember feeling confident. But I remember feeling betrayed, you feeling betrayed when the verdict was read. And I know that they read Nicole's verdict first. And I remember wanting people to be quiet because I wanted to hear Ron's verdict because I had tricked myself thinking that it would be different. I mean, I don't know.

Yeah, I was young. Yeah, I thought that was interesting because you said that in your show that there was this, you know, where once you hear that, well, clearly, but that you were still this little bit of hope. Yeah, and I think there's just that moment where you still hold on to everything you can and then I was not guilty again. And I just absolutely remember just feeling completely betrayed by the system and the

jury and just shocked all of it. And then we left, and there was a ton of people in the hallway. When we walked out of the courtroom, everybody just sort of parted, sort of the parting of the Red Sea, and not a word was spoken. And then we ended up in the service elevator to go up to Gilgarcetti's office, and everybody just burst into tears. It was horrible.

I mean, it just—you know, I've had twenty-five years to think about it and to kind of assess, and I still can't figure out how they got it wrong. But they tell you that they—you know, it was retribution for Rodney King, and they tell you that they didn't really seem impressed by the domestic violence because just because you beat the shit out of your wife doesn't mean you'll kill her. They didn't believe in the evidence. And what I always thought was so interesting about Marsha, what I've read or heard is that Marsha being that she had been very successful in convicting domestic violence abusers who abused their wives who might have been African-American,

that she was okay with not, she wasn't, like I want to say like she was the least, it seems to me if I can say, my opinion, she was probably the least racist person there because she was like, I'm fine, I'm fine with all of it being African-American because I've done quite well and these women love me. And like- And because she believed in her evidence and she believed in evidence and so and then I thought that that was so interesting when it came out when they did jury selection and they realized that like African American females over 50 really didn't like white women who married black men and so

their sympathy and empathy were gonna not be there for Nicole Brown Simpson at all. Well, I think, you know, in the, I forget which it was Lionel Cryer in the episode said that, you know, I think Marsha was banking on the opposite of that. I think she thought that African-American women would be pissed at him for dating outside his race. It was, you know, it could be that.

Yeah, so he's like, she missed the boat completely. I mean, he even said that as soon as he looked around American women would be pissed at him for dating outside his race. Right. It could be that. Yes. And so he's like, she missed the boat completely. I mean, he even said that as soon as he looked around and saw all the black women on the jury that he's like, no, they're never going to get this. So from the get-go, because he thought Marcia flipped the strategy of her thinking. Got it. You know, again, I go back to, it should have just been about the evidence.

And I didn't realize. And when they went to the house, when they took the field trip to the house. Now that part was revealed in the Ryan Murphy series that, and this has been proven to be true, that Johnny Cochran went in and put a lot of African American art and photos of his family. It was all next to his bed. Yeah, got rid of all the white man cronies on the golf course photos and made it really like an episode of the Cosby show.

I remember Chris Darden telling me, I don't remember if it was that day or the next day in court telling me all about that and he was pissed and he was like, what are you gonna do? I mean, there's nothing you could do. I was pissed. We didn't get to go. But we knew that that all happened, that they went in and did like a redesign of the inside of his house.

And I mean, what a fun day for the, I mean, of all the days, that was probably a day if I was being sequestered for 260 days and I got to go out to Brentwood and see the house, I'd be a little excited. It's like going to a museum. Okay, great. We'll finally get to leave the boring classroom and go on a field trip, literally. So they were like then starstruck and enamored by it all. And I can't remember though if the jury knew that. I feel like there was an argument and sometimes, you know, what my memory kind of merges together that I don't remember what was done in front of the jury and what was done when they weren't in the courtroom. I know that there was conversation around,

they changed all the artwork. They did not show you the real home because we had documentation of what was going on inside because we had the video of the evidence and we knew. Yeah, when they went in the house the first couple days. Right, so they knew that they changed the picture. So I don't remember if the jury knew that that had happened or if someone thought it was a real,

I remember an argument about it because that's BS. yeah but that's not why they went there I mean they went there to show the trail in the past they were going there they thought we have this opportunity to do this yeah um with the Brown family I always thought about if I was Judith is that her name? Judith? The mom? Yeah, she did. Because she's German. Yeah. Was there ever a moment that she ever felt badly? Like I left the glasses because for people that don't know, they had a dinner celebrating Sydney's recital and OJ went there and the parents were like, are you coming with us to Mezzaluna? And Nicole was like, no, he's not invited. Like, I'm done with this asshole.

So he was very embarrassed and pissed that he wasn't invited to that dinner. And her mom, Judita, Judita, it's a bit difficult to say, left her glasses there. So they go home to the OC and she, this is the way I remember, she calls Nicole and says, I left the glasses or she calls Miss Luna. And Ron is there and he's like, well, I know Nicole's just down the street. I'll just walk down the street and give her the glasses so that since she has then the mom can come in the morning and get them. Right. Like I just wonder if there was ever a moment in her life or in speaking to you like.

I honestly, I can't remember. I remember, I don't know that she came up to me specifically and said, Kim, this is how I feel. I know we talked about it. I know that she did have a lot of guilt about it. Emotion and guilt about it. Yeah. And I, and you know, it's not her fault.

Like, you know. Of course not. I mean, so, but we did, I remember, we didn't see the Browns that much. They didn't come as often as we did. So we didn't have a ton of opportunity to exchange thoughts and feelings. It was probably more in the beginning when Tra was first happening,

we spent more time with them. But I do remember, I mean, she's very, very quiet woman, very stoic and you know very much the matriarch of the family. You know Denise was kind of the one that did most of the talking for everybody. But mom was just just like fragile, you know, just kind of broke my heart. She just was so fragile and Lou just the dad, same thing, big teddy bear of a guy, just very jovial.

Yeah. I mean, we were all kind of just trying to figure out how to function in this. Right. They were in a different position because they still, they had the kids. Right. They were raising Justin and Sydney at the time

who were six and nine, I think, or five and eight, six and nine. And so talk about Chris and Bruce with the Kardashian, that's what the Brown family was dealing with. Call to the jail and having to talk to him on the phone. And I always just had such compassion for them for having to be dealing with that on top of everything. And I remember that was another thing that I believe either the defense brought up or maybe I read in magazines,

was they were trying to say, he paid for the younger girls USC education, OJ did, and her younger sister Tanya. And he got the dad in Enterprise franchise. And so this family was like very dependent on him. And I'm like, well, the family did love him and were very nice to him until he killed their daughter. Like, even during all the breakups and everything, they were still like the parents that tried to like not get overly involved in their daughter's relationship and have respect for it.

And you know, that's all I saw it as is because I looked at it as like, at the time, my sister had kids that age and her marriage wasn't great. And the way my parents would be respectful in a way of her ex-husband, like even though it wasn't that, but I kind of was like, they're just maneuvering, they're just old school trying to stay out of it during those years.

I think, yes, I would say that. And I'd also think, one of the things that I've learned over the years with just speaking and just my own research and stuff and learning from so many other people, you know, about domestic violence and what it does to a family. And, you know, we talked about it in a couple of the episodes. Um, I, I, I was really upset that the Brown family didn't do anything to help protect Nicole.

Like I, I, I was just, I was troubled by that because I think when you see someone, do you, do you rally, you go and you save them and you protect Nicole. Like I was just, I was troubled by that. Because I think when you see someone, you rally, you go and you save them and you protect them. But did she reveal it to her parents? I felt like she... Well, that's what I'm saying. So I think in my heart, I was like, how could they not know? And so I don't know. I know that Denise said she witnessed some things.

I know the family did talk that they saw things. And what I learned, you know, and again doing this the show is that that family can't always step in and Nicole may not have painted a picture of how brutal it was and she may have downplayed it and poo-pooed it and and there are so many different layers of emotions when you're dealing with abusive relationships that I lessened the anger I had towards her family and friends for not stepping in because I understood it more. Friends would say like when they'd have those fun parties at, what was the street

that his big house? Rockingham. Rockingham. That people attested the fact that they were friends with Nicole, but maybe they weren't her best friend. And they'd come with the kids for the pool parties and she wouldn't come down. Oh, she's not feeling well. And they, I guess, didn't feel close enough.

Like it was my girlfriend, I'd go right up and be like, how are you? But I guess guess didn't feel close enough like it was my girlfriend I go right up and be like, how are you? But I guess I didn't feel close enough to like go but those were times that she had bruises and stuff and and I think I think as a culture, you know, we see that I'm not like well, you know what I love it episode 9 I think that the expert that I had on, you know, we always say why don't why didn't the woman leave? We don't ever say why does he hit her? And so I think that that was really such a mind shift for me, in all these years with questioning domestic violence and trying to understand it,

that she probably wasn't out there, she didn't come down. She's not telling the world this is what I'm experiencing. And so I don't know how many people knew. People probably had an inkling, because I know that he was vocal and there was enough instances that he was explosive in public and people did know some things but maybe not to the point that someone felt like they could step in

and try to protect her. But I carried a lot of angst with me towards them for that for a long time because I was like, my dad would never do that to me. That's my naive thinking because you never know until you're in it. And I think I can't imagine how isolating. No, and you don't know how much she covered up or shared or said, well, I get heated too. Or you know what?

Sometimes when they say, I went after him too. She was 17 or 18 when she first started dating him. And I don't think it was the ESPN. There was another documentary that was done, I think, 2020 or something. And two of her friends that used to come to court talked about the first time that Nicole went on a date with him. I don't remember if he was 17 or 18.

And she came home from the date and she was all like messed up. Like her pants were ripped or like there was something she was all disheveled and they thought that was odd. Like she just looked no I remember that and I want to say it was like a male friend that was like what happened yeah she's she she was like basically like she kind of said like you kind of like date raped her but she's like but I like him right and that was the first date and I think yeah and I remember when I watched that I'm like how could they let her

like she was and that was the first time that I realized that I was having those feelings I couldn't I was I was ashamed that I was feeling these feelings towards their family yes but that was that moment like how could you not step in she was 17 or you know I mean I just think we know so much more now than you know it's like 40 years ago actually or whatever how many years that was because they were together a while but But like, yeah, and then, you know, she had, and it was like such a, she had to have two babies before he finally married her,

and she got abortions in between, because she didn't wanna bring another child into this, or he didn't want it. It's like, and then so finally she has this wedding, and it has to be at Rockingham, and then even that, like, how, why did she get this little condo with her two children? Like he just held all the cards always. And it was just that type of situation where, and, and, but she was trying to have a business

over in the Faye Resnick book. She's like, let's open our own Starbucks. And she's like, oh no, we have to, we'll have to make our own coffee shop because that's all she didn't know that it was not a franchise. So she was so Fey was like, no, she was really trying to like, really be gone from him and really try to do her own thing. And it was. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they were they were a mashed you know, I mean, I have a divorce in my life. Like, that's what happens when mine is separate. But they were amashed, and they were trying to co-parent. And there was just a lot going on. And I can't even imagine how you function

in that on top of being in a relationship with someone who's so physically and verbally and emotionally abusive to you. And how do you? So when all this went down with your brother, you did have a boyfriend. Like, how did that happen? I mean, how did that play out? I would imagine that would have been very hard to keep that relationship going. Yeah, it ended. You know, I... it was probably for the best. I think I saw the writing on the wall before, but you know, you're kind of in it and you make excuses and blah, blah, blah. But I just couldn't carry my weight of a relationship. And I was gone and he was in San Francisco

and I was in LA and couldn't focus. I mean, my friendships struggled too because I couldn't do my part. And I didn't know how to ask for help. I didn't know how to explain and share my experiences because I was just so in my own space. And so a lot of relationships suffered after that. so in my own space and so a lot of relationships suffered after that thing. I'm just checking to see what I... oh okay the author of If I Did It. Pablo

Fendez. I had lunch with him. Oh you did? There's like a million connections. I did because before I wrote my two books my book agent time was like you got to meet this guy you know he wrote If I agent said, I was like, you gotta meet this guy. You know, he wrote if I did it. And I was like, well, I don't need a ghostwriter, but I'm fucking meeting this guy. Like, who writes this book? And I remember being at like Barnes and Noble and picking it up and like didn't buy it. So don't worry, I didn't buy it.

But I did look through it. And I was going, this is so weird. Who writes this book the premise of the book was it was from OJ saying I didn't do it but if I did it this is this fantasy of a story that may have happened. It was the most bizarre thing. With a knife in his hand covered in blood so I'm confused. When we first heard about that I was sitting in front of Kinder Care picking up my son from daycare, and a friend of mine who was a radio host at the time called me and said, Did you see the National Enquirer?

I'm like, I don't see the National Enquirer. It was all over the National Enquirer that they broke the story that they paid him upwards of a million dollars to do this book if I did it. And I was like, What the fuck? And then that it was written ghost-writen By Pablo Fennves who was one of the prosecution witnesses He was the one that did found the dog right plane of whale sound he heard the dog crying right? Yeah at a certain time which then helped the timeline correct and so he oh my god. That's right. Yeah, he testified

And so I was like what what? I was so upset. We had a civil judgment. We still do. We had a civil judgment at the time. So anything... So because after the trial, then you went for the civil. Correct. And how long did that take?

Our civil case was four months, six months. And was there any moment that you guys considered not going forward with that? No. Good for you. The civil case started during the criminal case. Well, we filed the papers for the civil case because there was a statute of limitations. And so we wanted to make sure that we got that in. And that was before the acquittal came. So I had no idea even what the civil case meant.

We just did it because that's what the attorney told us to do. So even if he was convicted, you would have still gone forward with, with, no you wouldn't have. We just wanted, we wanted it on the record that he was found guilty of the crime. I didn't, the civil system, you know, was because we didn't have the guilty conviction.

We wanted it on the record. What came with the civil suit was the judgment, the financial judgment, because that's all the only way that you can punish someone is to hold them financially accountable for what they did. Criminal system is obviously general. So we had this monumental judgment against him, which he was not paying. Which was what? Was it 33 million or something?

It was 33 between the Browns and us. Our portion was whatever, 19 or something. So at that point, our judgment was whatever it was because it collects interest, and now it's like almost worth 80 million. Have you received any money at all? No. Well, we got a little bit from If I Did It,

but only because we ended up requiring the rights to the book. Okay. So I'm bearing the lead. Sorry, go ahead. No, no, no, so we attach to the book because he's not supposed to make any income. Well, in that process,

we found out that he had opened up a shell company and that's how he was laundering all this money that he was making. And he named the company after his two daughters, Arnelle and Sydney. It was Lorraine Brooks and Associates. It was their two middle names. And all four of his kids

were the signatories for the account, I mean for the company. So they were the ones making the money so that nothing would be attached to him. So he had learned that this was not the first time that he had done this. So he was hiding money and hiding his assets. So yada yada, he files bankruptcy on Lorraine Brooks and Associates, which then put the book into bankruptcy court because that was the only asset of the company. And then the judge ordered the book to be liquidated and monetized because there was so much money that he owed.

And so we ended up with the rights to the book because he owed us so much money. So we wanted the book pulled because it was disgusting and we thought it was at a manual for murder. And then I read it and I'm like, oh wait, this is actually kind of a confession. Yes, so we ended up we were forced and we were ordered by the court to publish the book So we added a couple chapters We added Pablo Fenves to the book because I was like, what the fuck did you do? Yeah yourself

Um, so it was interesting and he was on your podcast He was and he was very good And I softened to him because he was like, I thought I was getting a confession. Like, well, I wouldn't know I wanna be part of that. You know, this was gonna be amazing. And then he realized what he was dealing with. And so, but we ended up publishing. Was that like, so was that just terrifying for him to be

like in a hotel room with him or wherever they met so that he could like get the story down? Like how to- Yeah, he was nerve wracking, but he was like, I have this business. I need to be professional. and you know he he remembered he and he said I'm who testified against you and I think you're guilty or whatever I don't remember the exact conversation but he said it was a lot of work to get the story out of him but then the killer just was flowing you know like he was

just but what about in that book there was like this other person Lee and everybody thinks that Charlie that he refers to like it was really this friend of him He had a friend with him in this situation and he blanks out and has the knife So it kind of says like Charlie did it Charlie is OJ like it's like Charlie's his alter ego And I truly have always thought that that OJ and certain and people like him, whether it be murder or just being an awful person, they start to believe their own story, their own line, because that's the only way they can go to bed at night. Like Scott Peterson, who killed his wife or convicted for killing his wife in Modesto. You know, does he now like sitting in that, you know, death row cell? Does he said does he just now believe

that he didn't do it? Like, yeah, you know, I, you know, for him, for in our case, you know, he's he's a psychopath, you know, yeah. And he's a narcissist. And I've always felt that he hated that everybody's been talking for him for all these years. I mean, he did it, I think, right after the case ended. He did a I want to tell you or something, like a video. He was walking around the grounds. I remember he was in this beige sweater,

giving a tour of his rocking hammers. It was just weird. He just wants to talk, you know? And so, you know, doing the interviews with Pablo for the book, he did start getting on a roll. And then he'd be like, oh, well, you know, let me back up, that's hypothetical though. Yeah. You know?

And then the interview that he did with Judith Regan that didn't air at the time and it aired later. Yes. Same thing. Like he's telling the whole story. He's in it. He's putting himself in it. And then he's like, oh, I mean, if it were it were me you know but he is fully putting himself at the scene the first you know five chapters of the book. And why did they pull that interview again? We successfully pulled that book down from her book. So therefore the

interview then couldn't air till now and why was it able to air now? Because now I don't care. Oh okay. Because it was just in the vault at Fox. But at the time- Did you get any money from them airing that? Because they acted like, we just found it. And you're like, well, clearly you didn't just find it. Yeah. You put it away and then brought it out.

I think they did. And they put it out at a very... They put it out against something... I remember some people, television people were saying, oh, this was like a network move to like screw over another. Wasn't it the FX thing? Wasn't the rhyme, wasn't it right around? Because I feel like it was in the last couple of years that they put it out. It was, but I feel like, oh, I know what it was. Oh.

America's, no, American Idol. American Idol moved from Fox to ABC. So the night that it aired on ABC, Fox is like, oh, guess what we found? We found the OJ confessional interview with Judith Regan. Yes, that was it. And I had never seen, we wanted that book on, because I was disgusted by it.

And the first couple of chapters was very negative towards Nicole. Is it available for purchase now? Okay, go on. So, you know, and then we ended up with that stupid thing, you know? And then we had to promote it. I mean, we literally were, court order, the judge said, you own this, you have to monetize it.

And then what was happening is the people that he owed money to, like the car company or like DirecTV or whoever he was sing. They threw all their bills into the kitty. And so the money that we made from the book got put into the bankruptcy court and then divvied up to all the people that he owed money to. So I paid off his fucking debt. And the money that he owed us for the judgment. So we did all the work.

And then the day that the book was published, my dad and I did Oprah, which was a hot mess. And that night, he broke into the hotel room and stole all of his stuff back. The night that our book came out in Vegas. Wait, the night the book came out was the Vegas night? That he stole all his stuff? Oh my God. And that day you were on Oprah? What, you filled Oprah that day?

Well, that's the whole story. So do you think he watched Oprah and that like set him off? I'm going to take some credit for that, sure. Yeah, I don't know. It's just too coincidental. Well, it's also coincidental that the day that my podcast came out, he joined Twitter. And the first thing he said is, I am getting even to do. So I'm going to have an ego about it and think that there was maybe something that my dad and I in our constant pursuit just put him over the edge. Because in the hotel room, he talked about, you talked about not wanting the Goldman's to get any of his

stuff. So we must have been top of mind. And so when that went down, so just to let my listeners know, so he's been free for nine years or something. I mean it's been not, it was about nine years or how many years? Which between what? Between the murder and him or maybe he went to jail for nine years. I can't remember. He went to jail for nine years. Okay so there

was a span of time that he's golfing and has these shell companies and he has a girlfriend that looks just like Nicole Brown Simpson lives in Florida and the kids now are living with him. They lost custody or maybe as teenagers they chose to go with their dad. I think once they went to college and then like once they turned 18 They were no, but I think they I think halfway through they did live they I feel like that he fought her custody Yes, and the Browns lost. Okay. Yeah, I think the Browns lost or maybe they were preteens and chose to do it. Yeah, so he

there was some deal that went on with his memorabilia and he went and got a gun and some other people and stole it back and because it was a locked room and then there was a gun, it was kidnapping and he did nine years for this. I mean, when you found out he was going away, was it just like a feeling of like, I just can't believe it. He's finally, it's not what it was for,

but wow, what a treat. You know? I felt pretty giddy the day that we found out that he broke into the hotel room. We were doing- Was there any part of that you were afraid that he would get away with that too? Oh, of course.

Yeah. 100%. 100%. And so- So you felt pretty giddy, yeah. Well, we were doing CNN or something. We were doing a live interview and they broke the story. I remember my dad and I, because it was during If I Did It, right that day. Oh my god, crazy. Or the next day, whatever, when he was arrested. My dad and I were both cracking up and on camera, as they were telling us, we were cracking

up. I'm like, this is fantastic. Because they showed him with the handcuffs and yes is awesome You know and then you know, we found out more of the story and the trial happened in Las Vegas I don't remember how long it took but the night that the verdict was being read They read that it was like 10 o'clock at night or something. They did not hold it over till the next day I was by myself. My son was asleep.

My dad, I remember, was visiting Patty's kids in Michigan. So the time zone, like I was completely alone. My friends couldn't come over because they were like my boyfriend at the time. He's like, I've been drinking. I can't come. And so I'm like, I'm just by myself sitting on the floor as a verdict's being read. My dad finally called. And my my manager, who I'm just super close with, he's on one phone, and I had the house phone and my cell phone listening,

and we were all watching, screaming, like when the verdict was read that he was found guilty. It was just the weirdest moment, and I just remember feeling such relief. And then we were able to go for the sentencing. There was a lottery system for people to get into the courtroom for the Vegas sentencing. We were told—there was a press release that happened that my dad and I were not allowed to come, that they were not going to welcome us into the room, that we would have to wait in line like everybody else.

And so we did. I did not get the golden tickets. None of us did. Michael, my manager, agent, friend, he got a ticket, and then he gave it to my dad. And then there was another woman that was in line that got the ticket, and she saw me crying. And she came up to me and she said, I'm from Santa Clarita, and I know all about you,

and I need you to be in there, not me. And she gave me the ticket. It's, yeah, bawling, bawling. It was amazing. I mean, she's like, I've been waiting here all day, and she's like, I just have chances of her being from my home town. Yeah, yeah.

And so we're waiting in line and we're walking up and we're just about to enter. And then the bailiff halts and the killer's family comes in. Like his sister is the same freaking people from the criminal case. The Arnell and everybody. Yeah, and his sisters, I can't remember. I feel like the Justin and Sydney, they've kept very private life it so

they all come in now I'm all coming in took seats away from the public so now I'm like I'm gonna give a seat I can't get I'm literally at the door with my golden ticket and the the bailiffs like I can't and so she went to close the door and I stuck my foot in the door and I'm like, I am coming in this room. I'm like, I have to get in there. And she's like, okay. And she opens the door and she, you know, like motions for me to come in quickly

and my dad and my stepsister. And what were you expecting him to get? I have no idea. I honestly, I had no idea. I just, I needed to be in there. I needed to see him. He was pretty disheveled. And I remember the counts was like 13 counts of guilt.

And each count had a different punishment attached to it. And I remember Jim Moray, he used to be on CNN, but then he did hard copy and some of those things. And he was sitting in the row in front of me, and we were all getting on our calculators, trying to figure out how many years, because we couldn't do the math quick enough. And then they figured out that it was a minimum of nine, maximum of 33.

And that was just awesome. It was awesome. And he did get out after nine. Yeah, he was paroled. I just remembered I had dinner with Al Cowlings too about like three or four years ago. And I did ask him after a few drinks. You did? Yeah.

I go, come on. I go? Yeah. I go, come on. I go, all right, like, come on, let me just, like, what were you, what was, and then, yeah, then. And what are you doing? Well, Chris kind of stopped me because Chris hadn't had dinner with him. I might have to cut this up and show you Mark this. Yeah.

I had a dinner with Chris Jenner and she had never talked to Al Cowling all those years. They were estranged. And then friends of their, like this caterer friend of ours that's like a great guy, he was friends with Al and he was like, is there any way that you would ever talk to Al? And Al was at her wedding. I mean, she like adored him. Yeah. And so he came over for this dinner. It was a small dinner that, you know, and he was really nice.

And I like, I basically said, like, we'll just say this for Patron. I basically said, come on, Al, like what were you thinking like on the Bronco? Like you had to go there every day. And Chris was like, and I, Alec, what were you thinking on the Bronco? You had to go there every day. And Chris was like, and I remember she goes, Heather, this is, I just don't think she,

I think she just felt like that was awkward for a guest. I don't know what it was. But I was, and then I looked back and I was like, well, my God, that's why I stopped getting invited. But I just, I just couldn't not ask. I was like, what was it like to be the best friend because I understand how hard it might have been and even when he was driving him and stuff I think maybe he thought he was innocent or that he would confess or you know what

I mean? He was being a friend at that point and then so I was kind of like okay so after that and throughout the whole night and now, because they don't talk, is my understanding. It's not like that friendship continued. Yeah. I don't know. I don't really know whatever happened to him. I mean, he kind of fell off the grid. I mean, he's fine, doing fine. I mean, he's walking around this earth and looks good. And I think he has a decent life. I don't financially what he's doing, but he's fine. I always remember thinking back to the day of the criminal verdict, Robert Kardashian's face

always stuck out to me. I'm like, he's like, shit, I'm stuck with him now. That was my feeling at the time thinking because everybody else kind of fell by the way. He's like, no, I've aligned myself. Yes, and I mean, I really do yes, and I mean I really do think and I think people have said that you know later on he was You know he he then yeah, I think he definitely knew he did it and what was stuck there

And then you have this attorney-client privilege and all that type of stuff. Yeah, you were stuck with it Yeah, you know, yeah, but I don't know. I mean, I think you, you know, I interviewed one of the defense, because none of the defense attorneys would come on the podcast. Shocking. And so I had the private investigator, Pat McKenna. He talked to me and he was the private investigator for the defense. Yeah, thank you. And, you know, his whole thing is like he has to be innocent because of his demeanor.

I'm like, wait, are you talking about like what kind of a, his demeanor? Like his first phone call was to his attorney. Yeah. You know, like my first phone call would be my family, my kids, my check, you know, the mother of my kid just was killed. Um, and so, and I said, and then he wrote a confession, you know, the letter. Yeah. Yeah.

And I was like, this is your proof. You know, he's like, well, I don't know. And I said, that's proof of a psychotic person Like you know psychotic people and guilty people do those things you know trying to flee the scene and yeah, you know And then that if I did a book and you know and so you know I said like I don't I don't understand your Rationality said I don't know But people believe that you know if you want to believe that he's guilty you do if you want to think he's innocent you Hunker down yeah people he has now

surrounded himself with people that believe what about in all that you know the last couple years because it being 20 or 25 years what did you think about when when the jurors did say now I do think he's guilty um because I saw a couple of those interviews. So I didn't watch, um, I can't remember where I know I know I like seeing like an older woman and like a guy. There was a show I think the jury speaks. Yeah, I don't know. I didn't watch because I didn't care. Yeah. I'm actually having the jury on the podcast was probably that was one of the harder conversations for me because I

was like I don't want to. You just had the one guy? I had two. I had two in the same episode. David Aldana and John Lionel Cryer. I didn't want them to come to me and be like, I think he's guilty and blah, blah, blah. And they really didn't. They justified their decision to me. And I appreciated that they didn't backpedal. I mean, there's a little bit of like kind of in hindsight and what I know now maybe and but they stuck

to their their their choices and and and I appreciated their candor with me in that regard and I'm you know a lot of it was you know they talked about retribution and I didn't really want to be a confessional for them and I think I was really worried that that was gonna be what it was because I wasn't in any way looking to give them a pass. You know, they're both very apologetic for not giving me what I wanted, but they couldn't. And you know, I'm like, okay. That's the way it felt at the time. Yeah.

And I, you know, and with one of them, David, I said, you know, I sort of feel like if we would have shown you a video of him committing the crimes that you'd still vote the same way and he's like, yeah. Right. You know, I mean, I'm thinking, really? I mean, he believed in the conspiracy. He believed that these—he believed sort of that the LAPD was framing probably a guilty person, that they had enough evidence they were trying to do more.

Got it. That's—you know, and then Lionel Cryer, he's just all over the place. Yeah. He's the one that did the Black Power. Oh at the end. At the end. Which he says that wasn't what that was. It's kind of the symbol. You know when you guys did the civil trial there was this woman that did like an HBO one-woman show after. Did you ever see that? Because I went to the HBO workspace and saw it when she was trying to sell it. I think I was at something like that. I feel like I was at something. So I remember like you and I were probably like two ships. I know. The last 20 years I feel like you just like

walked in front of me and I went like it has to be. So HBO workspace was a small like hundred person theater that people would test out stuff. I did like, it has to be on HBO. So HBO Workspace was a small like, 100 person theater that people would test out stuff. I did like a one on one show, they're not for HBO, but you could just do it and like executives would come and see it. And so this girl that was part of the civil jury, she did that and they actually made like a show out of it. I remember then seeing it.

She was told what it was like. And I remember then seeing it. She was told what it was like and I remember she said this, you know, got into details of what it was like to see the autopsy photos and she's like this woman's head was a Pez dispenser and I remember her using that and then they shot it very much like when Monica Lewinsky did that HBO thing, like Monica Speaks, like in black and white, like it was in black and white and it was just this woman's experience of being on the civil trial.

I'm going to have to look. I can't remember. Maybe it sort of sounds familiar. I mean, I don't think it was like a big hit. It's just like, I was just like, I have to, you know, so I remember I took like a date, like I was, he's like, want to go out? I'm like, I'm going to see this HBO thing. I was girl for, I have to, you know, so I remember I took like a date. Like I was, he's like, want to go out? I'm like, I'm going to see this HBO thing. This girl for the silver dollar.

He's like, okay. And like, it was totally depressing and sad and like, and the, and the woman was not attractive. And so it was just like, it was just, she, she'd almost look like she could be like a little bit. She mousy, like small and mousy. Mousy almost. Yes.

Very like curly hair. I know exactly who it is. Like just very interesting look. I know exactly who it is. Okay. And yeah, she got that deal going. I asked her to do the podcast and she sort of like what you said about Faye,

she's like, it just doesn't ever serve me well. I wish you the best. I'm big, you know, I love your family and all of that, but she didn't, and I get that, you know. Because it's like every time someone family and all that, but she didn't. And I get that. Because it's like every time someone does something like that, they take one sentence and it's like, then all of a sudden you get this headline and you're like, well, if you listen to the whole thing, you would know that wasn't my intent, but who's going to

listen to the whole thing? And then you get like the heat from it and that's the bummer of stuff. You know, and the benefit of me doing the podcast was that I you know I didn't have to try too hard to get people to do it. But part of the pitch was it's me It's like my my perception, you know, and I have creative control and how did the podcast come about because I mean it was done Great. It's from Wondery Which really does these type of shows really well like well we put it on Wondery So glass glass Nancy glass who okay at American Journal really does these type of shows really well? Well, we put it on Wondry. So Glass,

Nancy Glass, who used to be at American Journal, she and I came together and she brought the idea up together to do it. So Glass Productions actually produced it and then Wondry distributed it. So she approached you? Were you into podcasts and thought, you know what, maybe now it's time? I had a development deal with her for a show that I've been working on, on victims and survivors, excuse me, on victims and survivors and what they do in the aftermath and it was an amazing show which apparently is too smart for TV. So we like came up with this idea to do the podcast and sort of figured that I could still do that concept but do it in this

world which I never really experienced too much. And so we very quickly put the idea together and made our asks and everybody said yes. And so we're like, holy crap, we have a show. And so I started doing all the conversations and then they have this amazing production team that just went and pulled from the archives. And like, I mean, I heard the first episode, I was like, oh my God, this is amazing.

Yeah, those are a lot of work and so when they're done, right? It's really good. And one of the things I loved is when I'm sorry What what is glass his first name Nancy when Nancy glass then? Called the attorney that was harassing you online who is now OJ's attorney in Vegas Trying to say I mean she was amazing because she's like well You just called Kim Goldman a piece of shit online and she'd like to talk to you. And he's like, I don't know.

I mean, it's like, and he basically said something like, get over it. And she's like, well, do you think, he's like, a lot of things have happened since then. 9-11. Well, yeah. Do you think someone that left their dad or husband or wife in 9-11 is over it either.

Like, didn't he talk about one of his friends dying of a natural... Like, the truth about Malcolm, and I don't want to give him more power than he deserves, but he was his attorney for the parole hearing. And so I'd have to go back and look at the tape from that, but I don't think he had much to do in the parole hearing. I have vague memories of him, like, dropping his bag or not having the piece of paper prepared or whatever. The guy was getting paroled that day, regardless of who he had show up as his attorney.

It was at that point that he started trolling and stalking me online. I mean, you could go back to 2000, whatever year that was. And he was relentless on the internet, on Twitter with me. And he just, he refers to me as a slave master and I'm a plantation owner, slave master mentality. Plantation owner? Yeah because Santa Clarita? Yeah because the killer's black and he owes our family money and and

then his new thing is well he doesn't owe Kim any money, it's Fred and she's greedy so now he calls me Greedy Goldman, wacky Kim, I'm a piece of shit, I'm demented, I'm delusional, I'm living off the gravy. I mean he just it's but every day there's something and he's... She handled him really well thoughusional. I'm living off the gravy. I mean he just it's but every day there's something Um, and he he's she handled him really well, though. Yeah, I love that it got taped Yeah, she's like do you mind if I take this? He's like, yeah, i'm taping it too. She must have been like Yeah, and now he he's he says he's suing us. Oh god. Good. Go have fun. Yeah, um, i'm almost done with you But I have one a couple more questions now

Did you um I'm almost done with you, but I have a couple more questions. Now, did you know about Nicole Brown? Were they just friends? Did you ever think there was something romantic between your brother and her? No, I did not know about her. My brother was dating another young woman at the time, Andrea. And you painted a very perfect picture of how Brentwood was. It's pretty small bedroom-y quality. I assumed they knew each other.

And I know now that they did, that they had a friendship. My brother didn't go through his list of friends with me, but if he was dating someone, I would know that. And I knew he was dating Andrea. And then, and I don't mean this to be negative towards you, but so what if they were? No, no, it's I'm saying, yeah, because people like to, well, you know, I get a lot of messages from people. I actually don't think they were. Well, according to Kessie Faye and like the people that were her closest friends, they weren't. I mean, but I think that it was one of those things

where like there's the hot group guys, like your brother was friends with like these other hot guys that would go to the Starbucks, you know, And then there were the hot 35-year-old divorcees. And everybody worked out and everybody got coffee. And I think it was just kind of like a friendly thing. And like, yes, we're at the, you know, yes, I got the good table at Moza Luna because I kind of know somebody there. And I think, you know, the reason I think people thought they were romantic is because she had set up the bath with the candles and stuff. But then other people said that was her thing.

Like a lot of moms do that. Yeah. Well, and I'm by myself and you have a glass of wine and some, you know, she had a fucking wicked night with fucker, the weirdness of OJ and was just, and then I think she was like, okay, I'll come down. Right. You can hand me the, and I think he walked in on it. Yeah. I think it was happening and he walked in on it.

I agree with you. And I think that's what the evidence painted. And, you know, but I get a lot of people that will, the people that believe that the killer, you know, is innocent, that my brother got what was coming to him because he was having an affair with a married woman. And that's usually the sentiment. I'm like, first of all, they weren't married.

And second of all, really? Like, that's what you think? You know,, first of all, they weren't married. And second of all, really? That's what you think? That someone deserves to get their head cut off? That's disgusting to me. But it's usually where people, they want to make it. They either want to justify why it was OK for him or for whomever. No, not at all. But that's usually what happens.

And it's just more of a sexy story. It's kind of sexy to have just this nice guy trying to return a pair of glasses. He had a girlfriend, O.J. He had Paula, whatever her name was, he had a girlfriend. He was still obsessed with Nicole. Nicole would still make him crazy, but he had a girlfriend, they lived separately.

Like, you know, no, that wasn't at all. And I think that for me, you know, the killer, I don't know who says it, but you know, he's always proclaiming his innocence. I'm like, I don't think so. Like, I don't remember him out there proclaiming his innocence all that often. But why isn't he more grateful

that my brother tried to save Nicole? Like, how come that never gets brought up anywhere, even the criminal case or the civil case? My brother, like, how come no one stops from their, his side and thinks, you know, right, you're right, if he loved her so much, he would have been like, oh my god. Thank you for trying to save her. We need to find who killed this this young man. He tried to save the mother of my child. Yes, you're right. Like he's never ending. And I'm thinking, you know, I just had to

always bugged me. Like my brother, you know, he, he, you know, he, he just. Yeah, the wound, his wound showed that he was trying to. Yeah. And he, and the evidence shows too that he walked up, and if you believe it, that it's the hey, hey, hey was my brother walking up and seeing Nicole being attacked. He tried to stop it. Nicole, my brother, was killed first. And Nicole, my brother was alive probably about for an hour, excuse me, a minute. And Nicole was killed second. I think my brother could have run. You know, and as much as I wish

that he would have been more selfish that night, but that's just not him. His instinct, his instinct was that. Well, you guys, thanks so much. Remember to go to heathermcdowelland.net for all of the live shows, San Diego, July 27th, and so many others, and of course, my Patreon. HeatherMcDowelland.net, thanks.

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