Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald - Matt Murphy, The Preppy Murder, Girl Kills Parents and Idaho 4

Episode Date: July 15, 2025

Matt Murphy, former prosecutor and author is here! I watched the documentary “One Night in Idaho” and Matt weighs in the Brian Kohberger’s plea. A prep school boys brawl with a rival high school ends in murder. A 17 year old girl turns herself in for the shooting murder of her mom and stepdad. We also get Matt’s controversial take on The Menendez Brothers, Karen Read, Sherri Papini, Gypsy Rode Blanchard and PDiddy. Such Juicy Crimes, Enjoy! Go to https://MeUndies.com/juicyscoop and use promo code juicyscoop for up to 50% off. Save 20% Off Honeylove by going to https://www.honeylove.com/JUICY #honeylovepod Reverse hair loss with @iRestorelaser and unlock HUGE savings on the iRestore Elite with the code JUICYSCOOP at https://www.irestore.com/JUICYSCOOP !  #ad Click this link https://bit.ly/3HDwJKc to start your free trial with Wix Stand Up Tickets and info: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://heathermcdonald.net⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald and get extra juice on Patreon: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/JuicyScoopPod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/juicyscoop ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Shop Juicy Scoop Merch: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://juicyscoopshop.com ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Me on Social Media: Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/heathermcdonald ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@heathermcdonald⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Heather McDonald has got the Juicy Scoop. When you're on the road, when you're on the go, Juicy Scoop is the show to know. She talks Hollywood tales, her real life Mr. Safe and Serial Data, and Serial Sister. You'll be addicted and addicted fast to the number one tabloid real life podcast. Listen in, listen up. Woo, woo. Heather McDonald. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. This is a special Juicy Crime episode with your favorite crime expert, attorney, hot

surfer, OC guy, LA Loyola boy, my Catholic brother from another mother, author of the book of murder, Matt Murphy. Welcome back to Juicy Scoop. Thanks for having me again. The book is a huge hit. It's doing remarkably well, just good for my ego. Yes.

Yeah. And I mean, I hope to see this. I could, we talked about it before. I hope to see this. I could, we talked about it before. I hope to see it like I could see it as a series because you're such an interesting character and then all the different kinds of things that you could write around it. So putting it out there in the universe for you.

Thank you. But we have lots of things to talk about. Thank you for coming to my party. It was great. That was actually really fun. Thank you. I appreciate you coming. It was sort of middle summer, middle of summer fun Thank you appreciate you coming sort of middle summer middle of summer everybody's got that summer like the summer summer look going and I was

It was it was fabulous. It's fun for me. It's the second time I've ever actually stood on one of those red carpets. Yeah, right and then I look and the guy next me I'm like, I know I recognize him from something and it was dr. Drew. Yeah. Yeah. I love dr. Drew He's the best. Yeah, that was a love Dr. Drew. He's the best. Yeah, that was a fun one. Oh good, I'm so glad you came. Think you know everything about The Bachelor? Think again.

Dive into the Reality Steve podcast, your ultimate insider for all things Bachelor Nation. From juicy spoilers and behind the scenes drama to candid chats with former contestants, I'll deliver the scoop you won't hear anywhere else every day. New episodes drop daily, packed with unfiltered takes and on Thursday's episode I'll have exclusive interviews.

Don't just watch the drama, understand it. Subscribe now to the Reality Steve podcast and stay ahead of the rose ceremony. Okay, now we're going to talk about crimes and documentaries and the big news stories. So the Idaho murders, murders. I watched some of this doc, which is on Amazon Prime, came out a few days ago, one night in Idaho. It is very, very well done. And for someone who, you know, is an amateur at trying to figure out what happens in these crimes, we covered a lot of it here on Juicy Scoop. There was a lot of wondering what happened, what happened with the two roommates that

were the survivors that called each other and why did they not wake up till 12 and why when there was a call did they say it was an unconscious person instead of four people murdered. And we never really heard from those people, but we see them on this. Why when there was a call did they say it was an unconscious person instead of four people murdered? And we never really heard from those people, but we see them on this. And it's really, I mean, first of all, it's just absolutely heartbreaking and really hard to watch. I actually told my sister Shannon, I'm like, I don't think you should watch it. I go because the girls will remind you too much of your daughter going off to college

this year. As we know, just to catch people up, there was a plea deal in which he did say, I killed all four people premeditated. I watched that video in front of the judge. Explain a little bit about how those type of things happen. So this is this was a death penalty case. And essentially, the Western United States, pretty much every state of the 27 that still has a death penalty case. And essentially, the Western United States, pretty much every state of the 27

that still has the death penalty, they do what's called a bifurcated trial. Okay, so the first phase is the guilt phase. Second phase is what's known as the penalty phase. In the penalty phase, the jury considers the aggravating and mitigating circumstances of the offense. So for example, somebody that, say they go in and they kill their stepdad who is molesting

them. Okay, so that's an accusation we've heard a lot with the Menendez brothers that we're going to get to, not stepdad, but natural dad. So if there's mitigating evidence, the jury will weigh that, they'll assign a weight to that and then they'll determine whether or not the aggravating circumstances substantially outweigh the mitigating. Okay, and if they do, they can not the aggravating circumstances substantially outweigh the mitigating. Okay, and if they do, they can but are not required to return a reductive death. So a lot of that is it's kind of thick legalese. Quick question. Yeah. What states are, is the

death penalty in every state? No, 27 states still have it and the federal system. And then we don't have it in California. We have the death penalty on the books in California, but there's a moratorium on it. There's over 700 people in death row. We'll probably never see another execution in California. It's a very emotional topic for a lot of people, the death penalty. There are really good reasons against having it

that are philosophical, religious, whatever, and there are good reasons for it. And it's a, when we get out of the crazy politics of our time and actually engage in the, in the pros and cons, it's, those are really interesting conversations that I think are healthy for people to have. Basically- One thing I was going to say about the death penalty is I feel like if you get the death penalty in like a California like if you get the death penalty in like a California where you're probably never gonna get to death, it seems like whether you're

Scott Pearson or whoever, there's a lot more people that are more engaged in wanting to help you or Innocence Project or whatever because you might die versus someone that is gonna spend the rest of their life in prison It doesn't seem like there's as many people that are like, oh my god This person has been put away for life and they're innocent because they're not dying. So it's almost like It almost helps you Too many of what I sit on a board

Where the whole job is to essentially identify. It's in Indiana. It's with Northern Purdue University, where we try to identify people in prison that have been wrongfully convicted. And I've been on the board for five years, and honestly, I've yet to see one. And the guy that is our main veteran, his name's Timmy Murphy, who I love,

he actually spent 21 years in prison for murder. He legitimately did not commit. And he's the harshest critic. He's like, no, this guy did it. This guy did it. This one's full of shit. And they're hard to find. The system really does, despite all the heat,

the vast majority of time a person who's in prison for murder committed the murder that they were convicted of. I mean, I guess the things that would really get someone off is now if they were convicted before DNA. mean, I guess the things that would really get someone off is now if they were convicted before DNA. And now there's some DNA that proves that it was a completely different person or the actual person is in the system and happened, you know.

And that happens. But what you see a lot of times, and I've been in this, I've been doing this for 32 years now. So I've seen, I feel like I've seen it all, but what happens is the standard on appellate reversal is could the new evidence have led a reasonable jury to a breach of different result. So because DNA is so sensitive, a lot of times on those pre-DNA cases, you'll have a murder that's committed, say, by a homeless guy and it's a businesswoman. And he'll come in and say, we had consensual sex, that's why my DNA was there,

but somebody else came along later and killed her. Then DNA comes along, sure enough, they find, it's called sperm fraction DNA belonging to the defendant, but if she has like, if she has unknown male DNA under a fingernail that could be a little boy she patted on the head, the mailman, if she shook hands with him, it could be anybody that's not in the system, that can lead to the reversal of the case.

Then they bring it back 25 years later, and the files got lost in the great flood of 83, or Aunt Millie, who was in charge of the evidence room, screwed something up, or your main witness is dead, and so they don't pursue it again. That guy gets released, and a lot of times, you see people on the Innocence Project coming out, going, aha, another innocent man exonerated and it's not true.

The guy actually did do it and that's a huge percentage of those reversals. Okay, so DNA has freed innocent people, no doubt about it. But a lot of that low hanging fruit that we saw 10, 15 years ago, it doesn't really exist that much anymore. Now it's more nuanced. Certainly does still happen, but it's very rare. It's a lot more rare than people would like to believe. Well, to talk a little bit about these victims, there's some thought of did they push to... I mean, there's many reasons why you'd push to a plea

deal, and two of the families are pleased with it. And those two families are Maddie, who was the one that most people believe that he was obsessed with that he went there. Maybe he didn't mean to kill everybody. Maybe he didn't know there were six people. Maybe he only thought there was one, you know, because in Maddie's room, she had her own room. But on that day, her best friend that she'd been best friends since they were six, you know, was like, Oh, sleep in my bed, whatever girls do that. And they were both asleep in the room. And then most likely, I'm guessing, the young man who was like six, four, which is also so tragic, because he only had a twin brother and a triplet sister, they were actually triplets. And they were all in school together. And he probably heard something and then tried to stop it,

I'm guessing, and then his girlfriend and he were both done. And the girls downstairs, we finally kind of hear from them, or I can't remember if we hear from them or we hear their story of when they woke up at like noon, she's like, something weird happened last night but I don't know if I was dreaming because they were drinking. It was a Saturday football game. They're probably been drinking since noon, went to bed at two, saw the guy with the bushy brows and was like wait was that like did I

dream that? And we people have gotten drunk. You kind of like so then she calls her other friend and the friend's boyfriend to come over and it's he who then sees something right away and he calls 911 and he says it's an unconscious person because he didn't want to say that in front of the girls but that when that came out and we didn't know and the police were being quiet as they should, you know, that was such a, like, why, why at 12? Why, why an unconscious person? Why, why?

And it's like, again, I always say, you know, who's to say how you're gonna react in such a weird, there isn't a playbook for when you find out that four of your roommates have been slaughtered to death while you were drinking one night. Like- That's right. No, and your take on it is exactly what mine is.

I think that's exactly what happens. Like Mike Tyson says, everybody has a plan until they get hit in the face. He had a plan to go in there. I think that he was focused on one and the plan fell apart because there were two girls in the bed and after slaughtering them both, makes perfect sense that Ethan came down

and he probably chased him back to the room that he was sleeping in, murdered him there. And so I think your take on it is exactly right. And of course, they're kids, they're college kids. And for the roommate, I feel sorry for her, because she got a lot of heat, the one that you said that I saw a guy with bushy eyebrows. This is a bunch of girls in college,

guys were coming in and out of that house, certainly all the time. And so this all, and you're right, you never know how you're gonna react to a situation. It's like, you can tell you're in it. Even when she called her one friend to say, come over at 11 45 a.m. I think something freaky happened last night.

She jokingly says to her, okay, should I bring my pepper spray? She was just kind of like, I just, she was like, I'm calling upstairs, but something told her not to go up herself. So I think she knew instinctively it was not just, oh, crazy sex last night and they both passed out and they were not up at noon.

Like I think, but I remember going through it. There was such weird stuff about, Zena had ordered like Taco Bell and the two other girls were at a food truck prior, and they were showing people, the internet detectives were seeing, look at this guy with his hands in his pocket, who's also waiting for a burger, like maybe it was him.

And now we know it was just this freak that was fixated on her and his car was there, and truly is the person that did it. But I was saying, if he was to go to trial, don't you think the defense would have maybe been to spare his life? He only meant to just look at her or something. Maybe he didn't mean to kill her. The two girls woke up and then he killed them both if you're defending him. And then the Ethan comes in and you know, and then and now he killed them both, if you're defending him. And then Ethan comes in and you know, and then, and now he's killed four people

and he didn't kill the other two girls, so maybe his intent was not to kill all four, even though he did plead that he had premeditated killing all four of them. Well, he pled to killing all four as a result of the burglary and with premeditation to go into the house result of the burglary and with premeditation To go into the house. So the burglary okay, the burglar is what makes it what's known as a special circumstance

But I'll tell you what he says. It was a burglary. Yeah, he said he will he that he went in with the intent To commit a felony there and that's essentially a burglary requires and and when the DA Took the plea And I've got strong opinions on that. Well, let's hear it. Yeah, well, look, so I sat on the committee in Orange County that reviewed these for 15 years. I've reviewed over 100, every special circumstance case would go through our committee and we'd make a recommendation to the filing, or to the elected DA about whether or not

to seek death or life in prison. And in California, it's life without possibility of parole or the death penalty. So you go through those aggravating and mitigating factors like the case we were just talking about, like the kid that was molested by the stepdad who murders him. That's a huge factor on mitigation.

Maybe there's drugs involved. Maybe there's more than one person and the person on trial was under the dominion and control of somebody who, like a boyfriend or a husband or somebody that's really the main actor, the driving force. There's a bunch of different mitigating factors that you would consider. There's freaking zero in this case. Brian Koberger was a monster.

He did this because he wanted to. He was obsessed with Ted Bundy. There's a sexual assault component. Oh, he was obsessed with Ted Bundy. There's a sexual assault component. Oh, he was obsessed with Ted Bundy. He was obsessed with Ted Bundy. That's another... That's very Ted Bundy-ish because with the sorority house that... That's right. And for those who... I mean, Ted Bundy was a monster, but the DA said there was no sexual component in that. I just about jumped through my computer screen when I saw

him do that. There is a sexual component to almost every single true serial killer type of murder. And when you go into, he was obsessed with at least one, but I think he was following two of them on social media. And he goes in there with that knife. He's not there to play bingo. There's no ameliorating or mitigating factors that have ever been released that we've heard other than he may have been somewhere He's not there to play bingo. There's no ameliorating or mitigating factors

that have ever been released that we've heard other than he may have been somewhere on the autism spectrum, which is a big fact, keep me at break. There was no- Well, I mean, you're like getting a graduate degree. So if you're that, you're obviously functioning in the world.

And he already had his master's. So he was a PhD student. So this is a guy who, right, he's functional. He had a relationship with his parents. He was capable PhD student. So this is a guy who, right, he's functional, he had a relationship with his parents, he was capable of learning. Like this was not, there was no mitigating factors that outweighed the slaughter and the brutality that he put those families through.

So I mean, there's no, do you, you don't think we're gonna find, obviously there was no other person that might, like they kind of did with the Giglio murder, Peach murder, like where they're like, oh my god, four years ago there was a girl missing. There's, so I mean, are we pretty much convinced that this was the first time he killed? I, it looks like it was his, this was his first rodeo. The reason I say that is, A, he made so many mistakes of leaving the knife, knife sheath,

which is deep, which is like the little leather thing that would cover the knife. Yeah. And this was a Marine Corps bar knife is what it's called. So this is a vicious stabbing instrument. And what the DA revealed in the plea for the first time was that they had an Amazon purchase for a K bar knife. So that's the exact type of sheath it was that we didn't know about before. So a lot of the sleuthing that you're just talking about as a result of the gag order that the court put on that. Because I think that, and there was kind of a- The sleuthing that other people did, you mean?

Yeah, that you could do. There's a great documentary for those who haven't seen it called Don't F with Cats. Oh, I did see it, it was great. It's awesome, that's online sleuthing gone right. This is one where they, a bunch of online sleuths, put it together and accused one of the professors at that college

of doing it who's totally innocent. And that was- Also, Maddie, for a while, people were very suspicious of Maddie's ex-current, kind of back and forth boyfriend. Right. And they had talked that night and, you know, thank God he was cleared pretty soon, but even for a matter of days, do you imagine?

Right. Like having to go through that. And then also people wondering about, you know, the two young girls and what their mindset were, and, you know, obviously they're gonna, you know, be screwed up forever. And he, the DA changing the plea, you know, and there, again, there are good reasons to do that.

Like the families won't go through the process. The families won't have to suffer through the appellate process. But the way they broke it down in Idaho is it looks like he's going to get a parole hearing one day. And imagine this guy being out again because it's 10 plus 10 plus 10 plus 10 for the four murders plus whatever your parole date would be for a 10 year max on a burg So he's gonna do under current Idaho law 40 and if 40 years in a few years before he gets a parole hearing he's a young man

Like you want this guy getting out in his 70s and that's it. That's a problem. It's not life without possibility of parole I got a problem with that. I got a lot life without possibility parole I thought it was because it's a determinant sentence in California it problem with that. How is it not life without possibility of parole? I thought it was. Because it's a determinant sentence. In California it is, in Idaho it is not, apparently. Now, and I got a problem with the way he handled it. I got a problem with the way that the Gonzales family wasn't in the loop. If what they said is true, that they learned about this in an email, and were given like 48 hours to be at court, in California that would violate the constitutional rights of those families. And when he got up, when that guy got up and told us even more information we didn't know,

and then started choking up at the end, I don't know if you saw that. Who, the DA? The DA started crying at the end as he's giving Koberger a break. And Koberger, again, having done a bunch of these, I tried eight of these myself. I prosecuted 13 serial killers while I was in the unit

for the 17 years I was in the homicide. I mean, it's disgusting that there's even 13 on the earth, let alone that you actually prosecuted 13. Oh, the FBI estimates that at any given time, there are between 25 and 50 active serial killers in the United States at any given time. Okay, and they're just, they're out there. These guys are, they're out there.

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like up to 50% off at meundies.com slash juicy scoop. Enter promo code juicy scoop. That's meundies.com slash juicy scoop. Promo code juicy scoop for up to 50% off. Me Undies comfort that's made for summer. How many women serial killers have there really been? Are those mostly just like a weird nurse or poisoning people?

It's not, I think maybe because it's physically they don't have the strength of men. So like what is a female serial killer like? So that's that is a really interesting question. There's a woman of course famously Eileen Warnows in Florida. She was a female serial killer who's killing truck drivers. Oh that was the movie that Charlize Theron. That's right. That's right. So they do exist and the FBI definition of serial killer is two or more killings committed by the same person at different events. That's a really broad net. Okay, that's that's that's very, very wide. That includes gang members that can shoot straight. That includes like mercy killing nurses like you just raised. So or my Scholar de Leon case. I think the really interesting ones like this one, there's an old book, I talk about this in my book,

called Psychopathia Sexualis, which is written by a guy. He's a contemporary of Freud. He was a German psychiatrist in the late 1800s. And he called them sadistic lust murders. So when you're talking about the Dahmers and the Bundys and the John Wayne Casey's and the Ted Bundys or my Rodney Alcala case, the Woman of the Hour with Anna Kendrick, those guys are sexual predators. And those are, it's a subset of the broad definition of serial killer, but those are really, I have no doubt that Koberger is one of those.

So I was pissed when that DA got up and said there was no sexual component. He can't know that. It was, I think it was inappropriate for him to say that. I've been publicly critical of him on that before. And, but for there to be such a disconnect with at least two of those families should never happen. What's really interesting about that is because I knew

that some of the families weren't okay with it. And then I came across this, which was the mother of the triplets, so the mother of the boy, Ethan. She said, there's no appeal, he will go away. My kids were gonna be subpoenaed and his friends were gonna be subpoenaed and some and his friends were going to be subpoenaed and I'm glad that they don't have to go through this. She said we were in contact with the prosecutors throughout it so they are extremely pleased with this. However, Zena, his girlfriends,

parents and family were not happy with it. And they were a couple. And essentially, Callie and Maddie were, you know, together best friends since they were six, which is kind of heartbreaking that they seem to be at odds maybe with Maddie's parents because they met when they were six, the families all got along. Yeah, that's the fault of the DA. You wonder if like, was there any kind of, you know, you lose the most important thing in your life, your child.

Is it, was there any moment of like, if she just hadn't lived with Maddie, she wanted to live over here, like, I don't know. Like, it's just, you don't know what people grasp at in their worst moments. And in the doc, so then last night, I looked up in the documentary, cause I was watching it,

but there were so many kids talking and stuff and I didn't finish it. And they both, both the families that are not happy with this plea were no part of the Amazon Prime doc, which kind of makes me wonder how much was like working together, like with the documentarian and the DAs and not that they did anything sinister, but it just is kind of strange that the people that were happy with the plea are featured

and the people that are not were not, chose not to be featured. So the thing is, if you're going to seek life in prison, make that announcement at the beginning. Don't put the families through over a year of this with all of the motions, remember that, and the change of venue and everything that everybody went through. And it's not just about the families. They're the most important element. First thing I would always do in our office when we would have a case like this, first thing we do is meet with the families.

I give them my personal cell number because you can give them some solace that at least there's people that care about the case. But that kind of communication, sometimes family members can be tough. But that's a part of the job. And there has to be, or there should be a change in circumstance. Some critical piece of evidence isn't going to be admitted. Or there's something that has changed

in the original assessment that makes you look at it differently. And another thing is, ethically, it's really not, I'm not saying they did this. You don't file the death penalty just to extract a plea. You don't do that. You plead what you prove and you prove what you plead. That was the philosophy of the people that trained me. So when you have a guy that announces

that he's seeking death, if you're gonna come off it for the sake of the families or whatever, great, but there should be a change of circumstance and it shouldn't just be, well, now Koberger's lost all his pret-trial motions, so he wants to plead guilty. They all wanna plead guilty. None of them wanna face the prospect of execution

because the vast majority of these guys are actual psychopaths. They are the narcissist, picture a narcissist to the extreme extreme is what a psychopath really is. The only person they really care about on the planet Earth are themselves. And in the state of Idaho, we have over 700 people here on death row in California. Probably never seen another execution. Idaho, they have seven or maybe eight now. So it's a very

small number. They have firing squad there. He faced the very real prospect of execution had he been convicted of this. And so of course he wants to plead. And the big winner that day, I hate to say it, was Brian Copperter and it bugs me. I agree and I talked about this on my Patreon. It was like this guy, you know, everybody that has a podcast will be reaching out to him. And if he can book an interview once or twice a month for the next 30 years, that's something to live for.

That's breaking up your week. That's giving you attention. You can change your narrative. You can say you found Jesus. You can get a wife or two or cheat on the wife that's writing you with a new one, like the Menendez. And you know.

Can I add to that a little bit? One of the most common things you hear is, well, and this comes from a good place, most people. I guarantee some of your listeners are thinking this right now. They're thinking, well, I think the worst thing for them would be to sit in a cell and have to think about it for the rest of their lives.

They don't think like that, okay? They do not, they wouldn't have committed the crime in the first place, and there's a picture of Brian Coburger that he snapped. It's a selfie. He did two of them one He's wearing a hoodie and he looks like a friggin vampire another one right after the murders He's given himself a thumbs up with this sinister grin. That's Brian Coburger that that guy is gonna have zero guilt He's not gonna spend one second in his cell regretting what he did. Otherwise he wouldn't have done it in the first place. He's a psychopath.

That's the way they think. And this whole idea where you humanize these guys, it is a mistake, it is a mistake, and I hear it all the time. It's like the worst thing would be to spend time really regretting it. That's thinking like a human. If you think like that, you don't go slaughter four kids in the first place. Of course, as a parent, he had parents. He was pulled over with the dad prior to him being arrested,

but after the murders for something else, some simple violation. Have you ever dealt with parents who are good people that are just horrified that they raised a murderer. Okay, so this is another great myth about serial killers. We all think of Buffalo Bill from Silence of the Lambs, right? We think of the tortured individual who was killing women to wear their skin because he's trying to metamorphosize. And if you read Mindhunter, the book, that's based on a real guy, but he was horribly abused

as a child. So he's literally driven insane. So we have this, one of the most common questions I got in homicide was what could drive them to do that? What could drive them to do that? The grim reality is a lot of these guys are, it's not from abuse. And Koberger had nuclear parents. He had a biological mom and dad were still together.

He had a good enough relationship with his dad that they're driving across country together. I didn't have that when I was 28. You know, like my dad kicked me out when I was 17. Like a lot of us don't. And so he had a good family. And you see that when it comes to serial killers over and over and over again.

Rodney Alcala, mental level IQ, that's the dating game killer. He had a mother who loved him. He had an aunt in his life who loved him. He had a brother who graduated from West Point, became a hero in Vietnam. Over and over and over again, they are functional. They have high intelligence, a lot of them. They have girlfriends, they have wives, they are employed. They are functional members of society.

They're not doing it because they're compelled out of some horrific abuse. They do it because they get off on it, because it turns them on, and because they want to do it. To them, to true serial killers, this kind of stuff is fun. Have you ever talked to parents that are a nuclear family and this happens? Oh, yeah. And do they come closer together as parents or do they turn and blame each other?

Do they visit the kid or are they just like, yeah, you should be behind bars. Like you are beyond repair, you killed multiple people. Like I don't even. It's important to remember, and you know, another one is Dahmer. There's some great home videos of Dahmer interacting with his father,

even though he was kind of villainized in the, what was it, Netflix? Yeah, the Netflix series. I think that that was kind of a, it's a trope to try to blame the parents. And at the end of the day, the most common trait that you see in these guys isn't abuse, it's that they were spoiled, that they were indulged as kids. I had another one, Andrew Erdialis, I'm gonna, my next book, we just did our proposal for it and it's going to be focused on serial killers. It was a trial we did for six months. He was in the Marine Corps and he murdered five here in Southern California, probably five more in

the Chicago Indiana area. All women? All women, but he also did multiple tours overseas as a Marine. So I know he has victims over there in the middle of his killings. And he's very prolific, super brutal. And when we, because of that penalty phase, both the prosecution and the defense, it's almost a race to mitigation. So when you're working on one of these as a prosecutor,

hopefully the detectives have brought you in, you have to make all those calls and find out what happened in this person's life because if there really is abuse, we need to know about it now because if it's really bad and it's real, and we believe it's real, probably shouldn't seek the death penalty,

like if they really abused his kids. But over and over again, what you do is when you send really good detectives out there and they interview family members who are like, no, there was no abuse, you see that over and over. Erdialis was one of those. And what happened with him, he had a bunch of kids,

blue collar family in Chicago. His oldest brother tragically was a soldier in Vietnam and lost his life fighting for his country, right? Heroic brother, the mom took that, she was so devastated by it, that she spoiled the hell out of Andrew Erdiales. And it was like first in line at the swing sets, he got everything he wanted as a kid.

I think Bundy had a very similar background, Alcala definitely had a similar background, and that's something that you don't see enough in the literature, like these kids that are indulged and spoiled, because then they become young men and the world isn't so kind to them, and they are entitled and they take then they become young men and the world isn't so kind to them and they are entitled and they take what they want and then they find that they get off

on it. I think that that is a component. It's understudied in the literature. I'm hoping to add some chapters in my next book on that because I think it's a fascinating psychological component of it. Yeah, and also just, you know, we know that he was hunting and seeking them out and looking around the house and they were just such joyful people. They were cute, they were all friends.

They were having this fun life. They were close part of the frat sorority world. I'm guessing he didn't have that at any time and that resentment too, just to add to the psychopath of it all. Yeah, and whether he was on the spectrum or not, I mean, he's super high functioning if he was. I kind of think it was crap, but he also had a drug problem.

So he had a lot of the- What drugs? He was a heroin addict earlier on, co-worker was, allegedly. Oh, I think I hit, yeah. So the thing about that is that how much of that social isolation was some poor guy, and I

didn't hear anything about him ever being bullied, was shunned and how much of it was just a product of his own bad decision making, because it really is different. That's another part of this, that one of the things in the debate, and look, believe it or not, I'm neutral on it, the death penalty for or against, I really think there's good arguments both ways, I really do. But when you hear the whole deterrence argument, that's a straw dog argument. Like there's no other crime,

whether it's burglary or robbery, you never hear that. It's like, well, how do we know that by giving this robber eight years in prison, it deters other people? Like you don't hear that anywhere. The death penalty is sought, in my experience, on a case-by-case basis for individual justice for that case. And you talk about this, and you look at those faces, they were, these were innocent kids. They're all beautiful. They're all at the very beginning of their lives. They're going to have wonderful lives.

They're going to have families of their own. And the ripple effect that these families are devastated. And for the families that support the plea, I have zero criticism for them. And for the families that were against it, again, we can't criticize somebody that are victims, and they are immediate victims. Their lives will never be the same because of what happened. And look, in my view, if this went up in our committee,

this would have been a death penalty case all day long. And we wouldn't have come off it simply because the defendant wanted to plead because they all do. And I think that that was, I think it was the wrong call. I think that the prosecution blinked. I think it was a cowardly move and I disagree with it. And you know, as someone who, you know, does talk about this and this is part of my show, of course I feel so much for the victims, but I also think, and as someone that enjoys watching movies about this, we know there's going to be movies. There's going to be a

movie in two years. There's going to be a movie in 10 years. There's going to be, just like Bundy, just like OJ, just like over and over and over again, because when people know this is what's going to get sold, this people are going to watch because they are young, they are attractive. It was a sensationalized story there. So and then sadly, you know, of course, the victims families don't have to watch it, but just to see it to start getting the calls like five years from now, they're going to be like, okay, I now have a grandchild and things are moving on. And then it's gonna be like Netflix announces,

the da da da da. And I just am like, ugh. Yeah. People don't think about that too, that it's never, when it's a sensationalized case, it's never truly over. Well, I've had to think about this one in the true crime world. And I think that when it comes to public education,

I think it's a really good thing. I think that when it comes to, another good part about this plea, which I do kind of like is all those online sleuths, and most of the time, I'm all for the engagement, for people to learn about it. But there were some crazy conspiracy theories and the Koberger, they had's that there's that's some there's that's some name

that they started calling themselves and it was like the and I'm I can't remember exactly what I thought he was innocent yes yeah so it's like hey he came into court and pled guilty like you were all wrong yeah you know all the conspiracy theories right he really did do it all the all the cell phone people that we heard the experts are recalling other you're all wrong. You know, all the conspiracy theories. He really did do it. All the cell phone people that we heard, the experts that were calling out, you're all wrong. And by the way, the college professor didn't do it. The ex-boyfriend didn't do it. The police were right.

This was a really good investigation. The evidence was overwhelming. It was always overwhelming. And he would have gone down, especially in a death qualified jury in Idaho. And I think he would have been sentenced to death. Look, it is the highest level of appellate scrutiny as it should be, especially in a state

that might actually execute, but it should be. Death penalty is something that's very somber, it's very serious. But I, yeah, this is one that just, in my view, my opinion, screamed out for it. Well, we pray for their families. Let's talk about something we all deal with bad hair days But what if those days could become a thing of the past with iris story elite

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Go to wix.com. That's wix.com, W-I-X.com to start building your website today. Thanks to Wix for sponsoring our show, Juicy Scoop. Okay, now this was, I did not even know about this till this weekend, but there is a case, his name is Raul Valley. And the way I understand it is

there were two private schools. One I think was Catholic, maybe the other one was just non-denominational. But so these kids come from means because it's like 19,000 a year, the other ones it was 22,000 a year or something. And the boys were like fighting. I, do you know much about this case?

Why don't you explain, you could probably explain it better than I. Okay. But it got a lot of press because the verdict just came out. So yeah, and I don't pretend to be an expert on all the details of this, but essentially what happened was it was end of the year, high school parties. And these guys go to this kid here on the screen, he's 20 now. He goes with a bunch of buddies to one party and they get in a big fight. Then they go to the party of essentially their rival school and there's a second big fight

and this guy pulls a knife out and stabs four of the kids that are involved in the fight, stabbing one in the heart, killing him. And he was a lacrosse player. Again, these are horrible. And I've prosecuted these myself in Orange County. Young guys, a lot of ego, a little bit of booze, they start fighting and somebody pulls out a knife. And physiologically, it's a really tragic

part of the human body. Okay, the majority of people are right-handed. And we are almost completely symmetrical until you get in the inside. And I saw a bunch of these autopsies with young men who've been killed with knives. Almost all of our really important blood vessels in our heart come out on the left side. So when you're talking about a right-handed person and they're swinging at shoulder level if you get it between the ribs you it's It's very common. It is so yeah. Yeah, that's so and that's what that's what happened here So this kid got stabbed and I've I've I've prosecuted these as murder cases

melee brawl some guy pulls on a knife stabs another kid and that kid will die. And yeah, you get the heart or any of those really critical blood vessels coming out of the left side of the heart. It's usually over within a couple of minutes and it is brutal.

And so, yeah. So I mean, I saw some of his testimony. He did take the stand, which we always talk about, you know, do you put your defendant on the stand? And so often it seems like they don't. Obviously, it worked in his favor. You know, he was, from what I can tell, extremely remorseful, crying, saying, you know, they were all attacking me and I had the knife and I was just inadvertently going like this to just get them away. Now the prosecutor had his former friend say, you know, like they, the other people involved were all exonerated and they were witnesses

for the prosecution, but it was more like he went back to the car and got the knife, which then would say, it's not like it was on you from cutting open a box at the UPS store earlier, you know. That does make you sound like it was a little bit, like you went to the fight with a knife, whether you left and got another, you did go with a knife. Okay, so for your viewers, you went to Louisville.

I went to Loyola. My Christmas dance date and my senior prom date both went to Louisville. I went to Loyola. My Christmas dance date and my senior prom date both went to Louisville. Congrats. Thank you. So look, we did the prep school, high school circuit thing. I got in fights when I was in high school like this. You don't hear about fights as much, though.

I have to say, like, on wood, like both my sons, there were maybe fights that happened at the brother's boys school that my son went to. He was never really, he was never involved in one. It doesn't seem like it happens as much. It's 2025, we're in LA, everything's litigious. It's harmless. So it's like, this was to me shocking.

This is something that would happen in 1988, minus the knives, but stuff like that did happen. But that's the thing, minus the knives. Okay, so having lived in that world, the prep school thing, which we did, going to those parties, which we did, the rivals, the Crescent, whatever, fights happen, people have bruises, and they have good stories

and hangovers the next day. Who friggin' brings a knife? Who brings a knife, and when you pull a knife out, and look, I'm reticent ever to criticize a jury's decision, and of course as an attorney, I accept the jury's decision. This kid is presumed innocent, he was acquitted of the murder, he was acquitted of the manslaughter, that's the way our system works. You know, I accept that completely. That foreperson decided to give an interview interview and he said that he was very critical

of the prosecution saying essentially they had no evidence of intent to kill. I don't know how much more intent you could have than stabbing somebody with a knife in the heart. Okay, like swinging it around, that is a deliberate thing. He stabbed four different people. And I'm thinking about this- Right, so the whole defense was self-defense.

Right, more from the perspective of a kid having been at that party when we were kids, who pulls out a friggin' knife and starts stabbing people? And so that's why the prosecution went after him for murder, and that's why they haven't dismissed the case, and they still have lesser charges that they're gonna pursue.

He faced up to 60 years because he stabbed four different people, and all of the serious charges, essentially, he was acquitted on. Good for him, maybe he'll have a life. But my heart breaks for the family of that boy who was in a high school party and left in a box. And that's an awful thing. And for kids who bring knives to parties to defend your ego.

And by the way, the last one of these I prosecuted was, it happened at a New Year's Eve party. And that's exactly what the kid's defense was. And he testified to, was, well, I was cutting boxes at my job that day and that's why I had the knife. And it was- Oh really?

Yeah. And it was, you worked at a Calvin Klein store. What was the verdict? Oh, it was one of mine. So you won? Yeah, it was a murder. It was one of mine. So you won? Yeah, it was a murder verdict. You got life in prison, and by the way, F him. Okay.

And that family was absolutely brutalized by that. And I mean, that's something that a lot of people don't, and thankfully most people never experience this. These ruin families. Oh, totally. And the term closure is something that's one of my it's one of my pet peeves It doesn't exist when you're the mother of a murder victim and it was a New Year's Eve party and there was These this guy went with his brother and a couple of his buddies and some some a hole

My defendant was having a bad night. He was a rich kid from Southern South Orange County He again kind of spoiled had a retail job He, again, kind of spoiled, had a retail job, you know, and he wanted to pick a fight, and he picked the fight with the weakest kid of this crew, who was, you know, and he'd never been in a fistfight in his life, so he starts to flick the cigarette at him, being that a-hole kid, not realizing his big brother, who's an Air Force veteran, who was there,

who's like four years older, had just gotten out of the Air Force and was about to start school. And he stuck up for his younger brother and the defendant pulled out a knife, same exact thing, swung at him, nicked one of the blood vessels on the left side of his heart. And it's not like TV where you get stabbed and people die.

The big brother finished the fight, won the fight, knocked the guy out, ran, got about 100 yards away and he didn't know he was dead and then he collapsed and died. And that family, they were the nicest people. And this was the vet? This was the veteran, Air Force vet. Oh my God, you know, you get home from a war and then.

Dead on New Year's Eve because some kid wanted to defend his ego with a knife. And by kid, same age, like 1920. And that family, it destroys them. They moved to Virginia because they found horses to be therapeutic. Grew up in Southern California. The sister had a horrible time with it.

The younger brother on the stand, it broke my heart because he had to testify to all that. And in his mind, if he was stronger, if he was a better fighter, then his big brother wouldn't have been dead. And it was all some a-hole with a knife who pulls it out in what should have just been a dust-up. I mean, the fight shouldn't have happened

in the first place. But look, these guys got in two fights in the same night. I don't know. And look, these guys got in two fights in the same night. I don't know. And look, presumed innocent, good for him. However, I know a dozen prosecutors who would have won that, and the four persons said there was no evidence of intent. Sorry, buddy.

And look, part of that really is, part of the whole defund the police thing is we need to have good prosecutors. We need to have people with skills and dedication but they're underpaid and there are they're under supported and in the state of California they are every life case there's an appellate process where every prosecutor is accused of something horrific some sort of dastardly prosecutorial misconduct that could they can get you disbarred. And I fear we've reached a tipping point of skill right now with a lot like we saw this in Diddy,

we saw this in Karen Reed, we've seen this in a lot of cases. Let's get to those, but I will just say a little follow up on this thing is now they will go forward, the victim's family, with civil cases in which they'll sue him, sue his family, sue the people that had the party prior to going to this party, who the parents have provided the alcohol. So I mean, this is why we never had parties at our house with alcohol. I never could understand when I had friends that were like, well, you know, we just let them have truleys or whatever after prom.

And I'm like, what are you doing? Like, why are you having this? Like the minute. Liability is real on that, especially in a litigious state like California. I literally explain to my kids, I'm like, this is our family. You will inherit this. If you have a party and something happens, we get sued.

So like, they didn't want the parties. They weren't like, yeah, let's, oh, let me just have all my friends over drink. I knew back in the eighties that it was a liability to have people partying and drinking at my house. And so it's like, I just cannot understand any parent that has it, even whether what, I don't care what you do.

Oh, you get two drink tickets, kids bring in their own alcohol. Oh, we checked all the backpacks. Why are you having the party? Right. Fuck it. Like they can wait till they go to college. Like, what are you doing?

Yeah, well, and I guaranteed the defense of that civil case is gonna be who thinks anybody's gonna bring a knife to a high school party. That's gonna be the defense. They're gonna say it's not reasonably foreseeable that four hotheads are gonna show up armed with a deadly weapon and they're gonna try to settle whatever beef they start or get started with them with a deadly weapon. That's gonna be the defense. Wow. Yeah. Okay, speaking of other kids, this story just came out. There's a 17 year old girl. She, speaking of other kids, this story just came out.

There's a 17 year old girl, she's accused of killing her mother and her stepfather and then called 911. There isn't a lot on this, except that it was her six year old sister who like found them in their room dead, told the sister, the sister called the 17 year old. They didn't know who did it.

It was like a shooting, like a Menendez. And, you know, this was a few months ago. So she did speak at the eulogy. I watched the video, you know, I don't know if she used chat GPT to write her eulogy, but it was very well written. It was, you know, I'll miss you. You were so wonderful.

She speaks very highly of her stepdad, that he was a wonderful father to her and all this other stuff. And then just a couple days ago, she turned herself in, apparently her biological dad, I guess, brought her. She turned herself in, responsible for the death of both of these people. But they said they're still looking at other family members and other people, as many as four people that also might be arrested. Which is like, what is this?

I mean, I'm guessing, did she have a boyfriend that they didn't want her to see anymore? But it's crazy that she could go on and act normal and everything, much like the Menendez brothers, for months and months. Yeah. So this is, and we don't know yet on this, so it's going to be very interesting. They're trying her as an adult.

She faces obviously life in prison if she's convicted. But this, this, this rings a case I worked on in Orange County, my Mullen X case, where it was a boyfriend girlfriend scenario where the mom did not approve of the boyfriend and they murdered her and she was found in Newport Bay and this is kind of interesting. So she's naked, the mom, and they dump her in Newport Harbor and all she had was, she'd been in the water for a while so we were having a really tough time. When you say for a while, what is it? How many days, weeks?

Over 24 hours. Oh, okay. But that's long enough to prune, right? And to identify somebody, usually with fingerprints, if there's been no call to the police. So we have this woman and her nails were perfect. She's obviously like, you know, she was- Of a certain stature, yeah.

Yeah, and she had some Of a certain stature. Yeah. Yeah. And she had some work done on her boobs. Okay. So she had to see it. So we couldn't identify her, and that's where every investigation starts. You have to figure out who the person is, you know, especially if the body's been dumped. And we're in there, and we're looking at the photos. I was at the dock because we'd go to our scenes, and one of these guys, his name is Tom Voth, walks up with a sandwich. He was a great detective and he walks up and he

wasn't on the case. But he looks and he's like, boob job? And we're tearing our clothes because we can't figure out her identity because the fingerprints didn't work and we had no calls for a missing woman. And I'll never forget it, he's got a sandwich in his mouth, he's like, you know there's a serial number on the implants? He's like, and it's unique, and none of us did. And it's like within 15 minutes we had her name and the investigation was off and running.

And that was the thing, the boyfriend and the daughter murdered her because she didn't approve of the boyfriend and they were driving across country. And when the police, I want to say it was in Alabama when they finally pulled the motor. How did they kill her? They stabbed her and yeah. Like stabbed her in the home

and then wrapped her up and threw her in the? Yeah, threw her in the bay. And did what was the final result? Did the girl try to say I didn't want it and it was all my boyfriend's fault? Yes, she did and said she'd been kidnapped by her boyfriend. And one of the key pieces of evidence in that is she packed a vibrator when they left.

And it's like maybe the first kidnapping victim ever. Hey, wait a second. I want to bring this. And when the state trooper in, I think it was Alabama, pulled them over. It's been a while since I looked at this one. But you could hear her in the car on the dash cam, telling the boyfriend, shoot him, shoot him,

to the boyfriend, and then it was like, I don't know, she was saying that to the trooper to shoot the boyfriend, which of course is nonsense, and then turns out she was completely in on it. She was convicted and sentenced to life in prison. And so was he, obviously. And so was the boyfriend, right. Wow.

Yeah. So I don't know. I'm really interested in the facts on this one. This is, I think the defense, what we can anticipate, they're going to blame the stepdad, and maybe it's true or not. I think that they're going to have problems with that eulogy, because if they say that he was molesting her,

it's gonna be tough for them to come in and say that the eulogy, but you can see it. The Menendez brothers did a eulogy, too, and said what wonderful things about them and how great, playing tennis and being a businessman. Yeah, but they were liars. Speaking of which, what are your thoughts on, since we're talking about young girls who killed their moms, who's got their boyfriend to do it? How do you feel

about Gypsy Rose and where she is today? That's a tough one, right? Gypsy Rose Blanchard. So here's the thing. My view on this, and of course not one of my cases, Gypsy Rose's reasons to murder her mother were real. Right, I agree. It's called Munchausen syndrome by proxy, and her mother passed her off as being developmentally disabled and having all these things. Her mother was a horrible human being who was,

well, she was mentally ill for sure, and what she put her daughter through was horrific. Okay, so Gypsy Rose getting out is a, I understand it. I don't have a problem with it because of everything. You talk about, we were talking about mitigating evidence and a death penalty. That's a great example of mitigating evidence.

My problem with the Gypsy Rose case is her boyfriend who essentially came into this in a super misguided way. Met her online. I mean, they weren't even like, yeah. Believed he was doing a good thing by killing the mom. He's still doing life in prison, and I think that's one of those things,

there's a thing in the law known as transferred intent. Like if you decide to murder me, hopefully I never make you that mad, but if you decide to murder me and you miss and you hit somebody else in the studios, the intent that you have to murder me, hopefully I never make you that mad, but if you decide to murder me and you miss and you hit somebody else in the studios, the intent that you have to murder me is transferred to that other person. I think that you almost have to do the same thing in reverse when you have something like this.

Her intent in murdering her mother is ameliorated and it's mitigated and the slayer here that she got to do it, believed all that and it was true, she really was horribly abused by her mother. I think that he needs to get the benefit of that. That's my view. It's so interesting, because she has her own reality show and I watched a little of it,

because my friend was like, I'm fascinated. And it is kind of strange. She got a husband. She decided all of a sudden when all the press ended and she was just filming her reality show in their boring Louisiana town, she was like, I don't want this. She gets rid of that husband who looks just like her mother, by the way.

Then she goes back to another boyfriend that she had that the viewers all felt were gay has his baby. Now she's divorcing him and allegedly there's letters where she's writing him saying, I know you're gay and da da da da. And that while she was in prison, she was one of those women allegedly who would, you know, get a lot of men to put money on the, on the books and all that kind of stuff and kind of manipulate this. But I don't, you know, again, you're in prison,

what are you gonna do? Like you're a famous person, you're having guys write you. But- That's one of the few cases that you'll ever hear me say, I kind of feel sorry for the killer. Yeah. Like the guy that's- Yeah.

His appeals have been, I think up to this point, they've all been rejected, you know, and technically legally for very good reasons. It was a first degree murder all the way. And like, yeah, if you were that manipulated, that easy to do it, who's to say who you're going to get wrapped up with five years from now when you're out? Like, obviously, your judgment is horrible. Remember that case in, I'm sorry.

No, go ahead. That case in Texas where it was the same thing. She got the special forces soldier who'd been deployed a million times, got blown up, had brain damage in Texas. Oh yes, we covered that one. Yeah. Yeah, and he went and committed the murder of her husband. It wasn't real. She manipulated him to do it. But that was another one, honestly. I felt sorry for that guy. I really did. Right. Because he believed that he was... It was his girlfriend from high school.

Doing a heroic thing. He thought he was helping her. She said that she was horrifically abused sexually by this guy and really manipulated this poor man who was a war hero and he went in and killed the husband. Speaking of that, Sherry Papini came on the show. Everyone knows the story, but it was very similar in that she shared with her boyfriend that she was just doing communication on the phone

with her old boyfriend, but she was talking to him on the phone. Allegedly, she shared that she wasn't in a good marriage. Now, she's coming, she came on my show, said she did, was talking to him, never meant to see him that day, did not intend to get in his car, did not intend to go to Costa Mesa.

I always thought again, so he said I was doing the right thing. I was being a friend to her when she said beat the crap out of me and throw a hockey up my nose, hockey pick up my nose or whatever, hockey stick, burn me with the, you know, Hobby Lobby branding to make me look like that. I was always like, look. Yes, I don't think she's telling us all the truth now or then. I really don't. However, what kind of guy agrees to do that?

So I always thought that was very, very bizarre. And you know, what dumb ones. And we and we do see that we see that quite a bit. Like my Niposky, my Niposky case, Bill McLaughlin, the one that was at Balboa Cove. Oh, how we first met because I was renting the house down the street. Four houses down the road.

That's one where extremely manipulative, horrific woman named Annette Johnston, who manipulated this dummy named Eric Niposky, who played for the NFL. Same sort of thing. She convinced him that she was being sexually assaulted, we believe, by Bill McLaughlin, who never abused her in any way. Gave her an awesome place for her kids, was kind to her daughter and to her son, and he was very wealthy.

And it was all about stealing from her. But also, I do think, just like you say when there's like a financial gain to it in that particular case, once he got rid of the horrible man for her, they were looking for houses. Big time. They knew that. He knew he was going to benefit and he knew she would too. Right. But he was, he bought into it all and he was manipulated and he deserves everything he

gets. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying he's a good guy at all. I'm saying that the guys that these women get to do their dirty work, for lack of a better term, they tend to be really dumb. And Papini, that guy, he meant well. I mean, he didn't kill anybody. But my problem, and Sherry Papini is not a one-off.

There are women, this is a thing, where didn't kill anybody. But you know, my problem, and Sherry Papini is not a one-off. There are women, this is a thing, where they will stage kidnapping. There's another one in Georgia, very famously. The problem- Oh, was that the girl that said, I saw a baby on the side of the road? Yes, yes, that one. And it's almost a trope, right?

It's almost like they go to school for it. She left her Walkman on the side of the road, or her, you know, her iPad, or whatever it was. I know, I'm aging myself there. Or her Walkman on the side of the road or her her you know her I'm aging myself there or whatever her mobile listening musical device was on the side of the road That's exactly what Sherry Pappini did and it was staged. I I I've done some commentary on that case. I've researched that case and And then what I get I'm glad she came on to the show Well, I know she's full of shit if she says that the guy just happened to be there. He lived in Huntington Beach.

They were in Northern California. Absolutely, there's, and I gotta confess, I didn't watch that episode yet if you've aired it. I know, I did air it. I feel like, I'm talking about it, if she really wanted to tell the truth, I think I would forgive her and I would believe it. Right.

If she said this, I was talking to this guy because I was in a shitty marriage and I liked the attention. It was an extracurricular thing that I could look forward to. And, you know, and then it was like, okay, let's meet, let's whatever. And what, how would my husband that doesn't treat me well, that is not into me, how would he react if I went missing? Then he would love me, then he would care for me. I think if the intent was to go away for a couple days

and then it got out of hand and went to 22 days, I think the intent was not to be famous. I think the intent was to try to make her husband realize that she is so valuable and like have this like moment. And I think the whole plan went awry when she saw how much publicity she was getting. And either that he then got weird realizing you've now put me in a place where I could be a kidnapper.

So now you're not going to leave, but I still don't feel even though she sat right across from me, I don't feel like she was telling me all the truth right and I'm bummed that I didn't ask her about the haircut well if you ever get her back on let me know and I'll put together some cross-examination okay that I would love to ask her. I want to ask her I think I didn't for I so her hair which was like my length was then chopped and I always thought that was weird when she said I was kidnapped by two Mexican women. So I'm like, if they were looking, cause they thought you were 15 and they want to traffic you,

why would they cut like your valuable hair? But then when we find out later, well, she said she was, he was into S and M and that's why she was beaten and, and all his creepy stuff. I'm like, who cut your hair though? Like that's not part of S&M. And then someone was like, Heather, it was like a cute bob. It wasn't like, it was self-cut, but it wasn't like, it wasn't like she shaved her head or chopped it like a Barbie doll.

So I don't know. The California jury instruction that every juror gets, which is from 500 years of common law experience, and that is if somebody tells you one lie, you as a jury, you're entitled to believe anything you want that they say after that, and you're also entitled to disregard literally every single word out of their mouth. Sheriff Papini is one of those. I think Lyle and Eric Menendez are another example of that.

Liars who lie, who lie. My problem with the Papinis of the world is, number one, they suck up. Our friend Dr. Drew would say it is the ultimate display of narcissism for them to do that. But what they do is they suck up incredibly scarce, valuable resources when there are real victims out there and they have police, those are all hands on deck. Kidnapping things, I've worked those before.

It's you have the FBI coming in, you have like every cop in the area drops what they're doing with real victims and real crimes trying to find that person. So it's a tremendous waste of resources. But the real problem is when you have real victims on hard cases, when jurors go in and they sit down and everybody remembers the Sherry Papinis, they're far more likely to indulge wild theories and wild defenses that go to the pure detriment of actual victims of kidnappings and sexual abuse. Like the couple where the girl really was kidnapped.

Yes, that's right. And that net flip-stock. Also, same area, like central California. And that's the effect of that woman's narcissism. And her husband seemed like everything he was doing was appropriate. You know, like he was doing public pleas, trying to get her home. It seemed like he really did love her.

Now she kind of says that, you know, he came in and he was miked the minute he saw her, you know, and I don't know and I don't care. Like it was hard though. It was interesting when she was talking to me, because she was a guest, I wanted to get as much out. You wanna be polite.

But then when I listened back before publishing it, when someone's looking at you in the eye, it's like she lied to my face. It's easier to believe than when you're actually listening with no visual, which I thought was fascinating, that I was like, oh, okay. I would love to cross that one. And I have, you have a bigger heart than me.

I have zero freaking sympathy for her. Well, I was always like, there were things, I've talked about it. There were things that I was like, and then when she reached out to come on the show, I was like, I knew she was kind of making the rounds, but I still was like, I've she was kind of making the rounds, but I still was like, I've spent so many hours talking about this.

I shared about how I had like a template for a movie idea of like a comedian that fakes her own kidnapping just to like, you know, get some press on a hard copy. Like I thought, so to me it was always fascinating as a woman that needs attention, but getting to this, we'll move on. The Menendez brothers could have their murder conviction thrown out. This was today's TMZ. I don't know if there's any more on this or if they just like to tease us with it for a headline

every once in a while. What's the latest? Yeah, I don't see that happening. The Ninth Circuit, for your viewers that are interested, there's a Ninth Circuit opinion on this that is scathing about the Menendez brothers, how much they lied, that affirmed their original conviction. And they were very lucky to get their resentencing. My problem with this is that a lot of people who advocated for them after watching the Netflix special believe they were advocating for victims of sexual abuse. And they received life without possibility of parole.

The people that are serving prison time with life without possibility of parole are the worst of the worst. It means that they were, most of them are specialist circumstance murderers. Some of them are kidnappers like my Nyeri case where they severed the penis in the desert. They're the most violent, the most brutal, and they're all lining up now in California

for their resentencing as a result of this. So the precedent, we exist in a system with what's known as stare decisis. So it's what came before. We base our rulings and our law on other cases. It's called precedent. This sets a horrific precedent. I know this is controversial among some of your viewers that love the Menendez brothers.

I'm not a fan. I think that they, and if you take it at its absolute worst, let's say Jose Menendez did everything they said and more. There's no reason you don't get a free murder of the mother. And each one of them is an individual. People talk about them as being the parents. And she had a right to live. And Lyle Menendez reloaded the shotgun and put it to her face

and literally blew her face off. She was still alive somehow after receiving multiple shots. And then they proceeded to lie to everybody, from the detectives to the 911 operator. And the only reason Lyle didn't testify in the second trial was because he was caught on a hot mic with a court groupie, everybody who forgets this, where he was bragging about how well he lied during the first trial.

So again, like Papini, when you got people that lie, lie, lie again, get caught in lies, they lied about the shotguns. There's the prosecutor, one of the two in the original trial, a guy named Lester Kuriyama. And it was something that they trained us in in the DA's office because he caught Eric in the lies about the shotguns and obtaining the shotguns.

It's called putting the witness in a box. And he got, these guys lied over and over and over again. They had cell phones in their possession in the months leading up to it. I know Mark, Gary goes, I like Mark, we get along great. We've done a bunch of panels together. We had cases together back in the day. Mark, I think is a, is a, is a fine defense attorney, but he's doing a job, you know, and, um, you know, they good for these guys. They, you know, I do think if they got out, I definitely don't think they'd be a dangerous society. But I understand how the law works.

Karen Reed, she got a book deal. Now we know a book deal comes, we know a TV show and all these other things will probably come as well, either with her being a part of it or someone just writing from afar, along with unpopular opinions, I'm gonna let you share yours now.

What did you think of the whole thing? Okay, so number one, I gotta preface it, she's presumed innocent, you know, that's the way our system works. She was acquitted, good for her, okay. What breaks my heart about this case is that the man that died here, everybody forgets, he adopted his sister's two kids. So his sister's kids, his sister and her husband

were killed in a tragic car accident. This is a good guy. No, they didn't die in a car accident. Didn't they die in a car accident? No, the sister died first, and then like months later, the husband died of like, the sister was sick, and then months later, the husband died of like, the sister was sick, and then months later, the husband died of like a heart attack.

And then he was raising the kids. He adopted the kids and was raising the kids. Right, and I think he was great. That still doesn't mean that if she didn't do it. Of course, of course. What did you think of all, I mean, I can see why they ran with thinking that she hit him with the car for a number of reasons, including her saying it on the scene.

Because she hit him with the car also. Well, what about the late, what about the woman that said he was not hit with a car emphatically? I thought that was a pretty great moment. Again, she's presumed innocent. I know Alan Jackson, the defense lawyer, he's, I, I can, he's a buddy of mine. And he came up, I was in Orange County, he came up in the ranks. He is an immensely talented trial lawyer, he's a good dude, he's the real deal. And I think that the prosecution from the very beginning,

they overfiled the case originally, they went for a first degree murder because of all the acrimony and the problems in their relationship and the 53 voicemails, where she kept saying, and I don't think I'll ever hear the term again, and I can swear on your show, right? Motherfucker, motherfucker! You know, that's worth a listen just for, you know,

she clearly believed that he was alive afterwards because she kept leaving these voicemails. The only thing I was gonna say, because that's the way I think about things, so I do think when she left, she thought he was in the party. This is one theory. And then she left all those messages.

Again, just like the young girls at the Idaho house, when you've had lots of drinks, and then when she woke up then at 4 45 a.m. and he wasn't there. If I thought I left my fucker boyfriend who's a swinger or whatever at the house and he wasn't there at 4 45, I would still be like, okay, like we're done. I wouldn't immediately panic and think something must have happened at that house. I better call my friends to come pick me up and take him. But I think she panicked because I think there was one moment, if just Karen, Karen Cole, just give me a minute. If there might've been one minute in the back room mind as she was leaving angrily that he might have, he might've gotten in a fight in the house.

He might've walked out and just at that moment was like, wait. And then she inadvertently felt like she hit something, didn't really, didn't stop or think, and was like, fuck it, so drunk, drove home, yelled all the messages, went to bed, woke up, and then a few hours later, still drunk a little bit, but remembering, I think something bad happened. Because otherwise you would just be like, and on top of it, you never came home?

Like you wouldn't, what would make you think that something bad happened at a house party besides you having sex with a girl that isn't you? That's the only thing. And I also think it's interesting that all the people that they do think are responsible for it, the McCabe girl and the Alberts, that they did interviews after.

I'm kind of like, if I knew I was seen as somewhat of a suspect after I gave a testimony and the whole world thinks that my family is in this conspiracy, I wouldn't be doing interviews, but who knows? Or you might be because that turtle boy guy had people picketing in front of your house and you've been accused of a murder you didn't commit

and you'd want to set the record straight. And by the way, you got a bunch of cops inside a house and they murder somebody inside and their grand plan to get him into the body is to dump him in the snow in the driveway. I mean, that's absurd. Okay, the other thing I'm thinking, which we'll never know, the only person that knows what happens is the dog, okay?

Dogs, once AI can figure out what a dog is thinking, think how many crimes we'll solve, okay? From OJ to whatever. But the other thing I was thinking is, if you want to say that somehow, yes, he was beaten up, but yes, a car hit him without intent, like just being drunk and hitting. I always wondered if they got in a physical fight,

the dog scratched him, they got in a physical fight, but he left with his two feet walking out. Something happens, he either collapsed or the car hit him. And he's on the ground. Then the Higgins guy leaves and is like, holy shit, what the fuck just, like he left, he was fine. Like, yeah, I hit him, but like, and that's when he starts calling Albert

and that's when they stay in the house, when the cops come, because they didn't know that they killed him, but something happened between him getting hit in the house and him walking out of the house. I don't think he died in the house and they lifted him up and placed him there. I don't.

This was a botched investigation and it was a botched prosecution from the very beginning and against an immensely talented defense lawyer who outgunned the prosecution from the word go in both trials. And that's, you know, and I think that that accident accident that you were talking about is the last time I was on the show and I got,

I got tons of heat from your juicy viewers. Okay, so I, You will do, we will do it, we will again. I have done a million of these. Okay, this is a, this is so average, it's been all the, the drunken accident that kills somebody are a dime a dozen everywhere. And she was on video at the falls.

She had a million frigging drinks. She had a very high blood alcohol level. When in the data recorder on the car, she had a 74% acceleration rate going backwards, which is punching it. You put all those pieces together, but they over-filed it as a first degree murder, which it clearly never was. So the question in cases like that is, is this a gross vehicular manslaughter, which

is an accident, or is it an implied malice murder, which is also an accident There's and so they they miss filed it. They write this process So do you think do you think if at the time she's freaking out? I can't believe I hit him blah blah blah blah blah, and then they were like we're you know We're arresting you for manslaughter and then she gets an attorney to defend her on manslaughter not first-degree murder What in your opinion, say that was the case, because she's drunk and she doesn't remember and she believes that it's what she thought when she woke up at 4 45 a.m. What do you think she, what would

you think the result would have been like three years in prison? First of all, we never hear about this case. This happens, this happens every weekend somewhere in the United States where somebody drunk hits somebody hits some kid on a bike on an accident. These are accidental deaths. And look, she was acquitted of even that. So I got to say, she's presumed innocent. She's innocent. I'm an attorney. All you know. What do you think she would have gotten had they never gone for first degree? Like, do you think they would have settled and she would have done like a couple years? Yeah, so this would be a the and it depends on the state, but a gross vehicular manslaughter, where somebody who's intoxicated who hit somebody, you know, again, state by state, they'll wind up getting, you know, that's typically

like, you know, somewhere in the in the in the five-year range, you know, maybe they're out in three because it's an accidental death where they're drunk. That's what you see a lot. Some version of that, and again, the sentencing range depends on state by state. Okay, I think it's 11 years in California is the penalty for gross. I could be wrong on that,

and I think they've changed it recently. But somewhere in there, and then you do, sometimes you'll do 50%, so that'd be five and a half years actual. Sometimes there's a range of sentences that are available. But that's the type of thing that you see. Somebody accidentally hits a kid on a bike and maybe it's the first DUI or they're drunk

and they're trying to make a phone call on their cell phone. Accidents happen all the time. Drunken accidents happen. Somebody dies in every state, every weekend in a case like this. But the reason why there was so much, she's pretty. Jackson is amazing, Alan Jackson, and they went with this first degree murder theory of a police officer in the snow and then that's where the sensation comes.

And then we have the conspiracy theories and the online sleuths and we're off to the races. We never would have heard about this if the prosecution had handled it correctly. And it would have been absolutely average if the police had done the investigation the right way. Last thing, Diddy, he's being sentenced October 3rd. My question is why do they do that where they keep him in prison for several months? Is it because they think he's not going to get that much time, so at least he was in prison for like a year throughout it?

What is the motivation? Why does it three months away? They think he's not going to get that much time, so at least he was in prison for like a year throughout it. What is the motivation? Why does it three months away? Okay, so a couple, it could be a couple different things, but in the federal system, judges place a great deal of weight on the, essentially the federal probation department will do an assessment and they will make a sentencing recommendation for the Mann Act violations here. So the federal judges tend to place a lot of weight in the federal probation department's

investigation. And they will almost always go through that process. I think the reason why the court didn't release him immediately is either the court intends to impose more time or I think, and this is pure speculation by me, remember when he was using other prisoners code numbers to call people from the jail? Remember when you got in trouble for that? That is the type of stuff that pisses judges off.

Because you can't follow the rules in jail. Judges, especially federal judges, tend to take that personally. And that's why his- So you think you're giving him a leash, a long leash to fuck up? No, no, I think that when he did that, when he did that originally, he pissed off this judge.

And that's why. Yeah, now that's my guess. But look, the Mann Act is a morality crime. That's, it's a prostitution crime. It's something that was designed essentially to try to go after pimps around the turn of the century. And this is like, this is prohibition era type stuff. It is every lonely divorced guy in New York City, where I've been spending a bunch of time for the ABC stuff lately,

who gets divorced and pays for an Uber for some sex worker to come across from New Jersey across the bridge That's technically a man act violation. It is right. It is some of the least offensive crimes. It's a morality crime I don't I and I could be wrong here. I just can't imagine a big a Big sentence a big sense. Can I tell a funny story along? Yeah, okay. So now that I'm it's since I'm spending all this time in New York, I've been meeting all these fancy people. Okay, and I got a friend who knows this billionaire guy who has a party over 4th of July weekend,

and I get invited to it. And they've got this awesome rhythm and blues band from New Orleans. And it's what you'd expect. It's in the Hamptons, which is super fancy. And you've been there, I'd never been there before, like last summer. And it's like, it's where all the rich people go from New York in the Hamptons, which is super fancy. And you've been there, I'd never been there before, like last summer. And it's like, it's where all the rich people go

from New York in the summertime. So I'm at this crazy party and I'm standing next to this kid who's watching the music and we strike up a conversation. Couldn't have been nicer, couldn't have been more respectful. And we're talking about the music. And so my friend who was our, she goes, hey, do you know who this is?

That's Diddy's son, Quincy. And so, and I just gotta say. Is he the oldest one? I don't know where he fits on it. Cause there's three. For your viewers. I know there's two or three. Quincy, Justin and Christian, I think.

Yeah, regardless of how anybody feels about Diddy. And I know that's the passions run deep on that for very good reasons. Quincy in my 30 minute conversation, couldn't have been a nicer kid for what it's worth. But you also, you know, aren't a cute girl on a yacht, partying hard and being a vulnerable physician. I have very little to worry about

when it comes to baby oil. There are bus boys all over LA that said, OJ was the nicest guy in the world, you know? You weren't Nicole. Very true. Speaking of which, thank you so much for coming. And for people that still have not bought your book and want a good juicy book to read, the book of murder, where can they get it?

Where can they follow you? So Matt Murphy Law on Instagram, and I will respond to all of the DMs. If anybody wants to find me, follow me and send me a DM. I will respond, please be kind. Last time I got, I just got ripped on the comments for my thoughts on Karen Reed before she was acquitted. Don't hold mean comments against me.

I don't control what people write, my guests. A lot of passion out there. Yeah. It's available everywhere. It's Disney books, it's Hyperion publishing, but Amazon, it's also the Audible. And this is again, really good for me. Yeah, people love an Audible for a long trip.

I read it myself, it's 4.9 stars still. And Disney's happy, it's sold a bunch. I just submitted the proposal for my next book on serial killers. We submitted it Friday. Love it. So yeah, hopefully it goes well. But this chronicles my career in the homicide unit.

I talk about the things I learned. I kind of take the reader through the 17 years I spent, the different kinds of murder cases, the stuff I did. I did the Golden State Killer case that's actually not in the book. Rodney Alcala is the dating game killer. Tom and Jackie Hawks, Ed Shinn, some of my more notable cases.

Thank you so much, I always appreciate when you come. You're a great friend. I love being here. This was great. Thank you, everybody go to heathermcdahl.net to get your tickets to my show in Vegas. It is selling out quick. So go get that November 14th, heathermcdal.net to get your tickets to my show in Vegas. It is selling out quick. So go get that November 14th.

HeatherMittal.net. Thank you, bye.