Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald - Munchausen by Proxy in Hollywood with Andrea Dunlop

Episode Date: July 18, 2024

Andrea Dunlop’s podcast “Nobody Should Believe Me” explores the criminology and psychopathology behind Munchausen by Proxy. She gives her background about why she started exploring Munchausen by Proxy - because of her sister having it. We discuss how in many cases of Munchausen and Munchausen by Proxy, people start to do fraudulent fundraising. Let’s not forget Real Housewife of Beverly Hills Yolanda who said she and her kids had Lyme disease which certain cast members challenged. We also discussed the film Take Care of Maya and whether the medical professionals took too much of the blame. Buy Andrea’s book: Women Are The Fiercest Creatures. Enjoy!  Go to https://TheOuai.com and use code JUICY for 15% off your entire purchase. Wash your OUAI to healthier hair with shampoos and conditioners made just for you. Go to https://Booking.com . This summer you can book whoever you want to be on Booking.com, Booking.yeah! Book today on the site or app. Head on over to https://awaytravel.com/juicyscoop to see the new softside luggage from Away! Go to https://Ro.Co/JuicyScoop . Sign up today and you’ll pay just $99 for your first month—and $145 a month after that. Medication costs are separate. Shop Juicy Scoop Merch https://juicyscoopshop.com  Get EXTRA Juicy on Patreon https://www.patreon.com/juicyscoop  Follow Me on Social Media Instagram: https://www/instagram.com/heathermcdonald  TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@heathermcdonald  Twitter: https://twitter.com/HeatherMcDonald Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Benefits vary by card, other conditions apply. Heather McDonald has got the Juicest Scoop. When you're on the road, when you're on the go, Juicest Scoop is the show to know. She talks Hollywood tales, her real life Mr. safe with serial data and serial systems. You'll be addicted and addicted fast to the number one tabloid real life podcast. Listen in, listen up, whoop whoop, Hannah McDonald. Juicy Scoop. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. Well, aren't we having a fun July? You know what's going to make it more fun? When you come see me in San Diego and Humphreys by the Bay with

the hilarious Julie Goldman. And then, hello Texas, get out of the heat and laugh with Chris Vangelo and I. I'll be in Houston August 8th, then August 9th Dallas, August 10th Austin. Everything is at heathermcdowelland.net. Lots more dates are there. This interview is really juicy. We really get into what causes people to suffer from munchausens and munchausens by proxy. It's fascinating. We talk about some of the housewives

that had storylines about it and possibly had it themselves with an expert on it who is a very interesting author and podcaster herself. So now here is my interview with Andrea Dunlop. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. I've got a juicy one. I have author, podcaster, Andrea Dunlop. I've got a juicy one. I have author, podcaster Andrea Dunlop. I know you from your podcast. No one will believe me.

Nobody should believe me. Oh, sorry. Nobody should believe me. But you also have all these books which we'll get to that look really juicy and, you know, wonderful. Welcome to Juicy Scoop. Thanks for coming. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Heather. So let's get into how I heard about you, which was your hit podcast, No One Will Believe Me, which is where you talk about your sister having Munchausen's by proxy.

So you wanted to get into that a little bit. Yeah, absolutely. So on Nobody Should Believe Me, we talk about medical child abuse and munch hasm by proxy cases. So I come to this through, as you mentioned, a really personal connection. And I just want to give the disclaimer that my sister has never been charged with a crime. As most people who commit this crime or not, I have learned throughout talking to all of these experts that I've interviewed for the show and also she has not been formally diagnosed with anything. Again, extremely common, practically ubiquitous. People do not get diagnosed with this mental illness outside of the context

of a criminal court basically. So just with those caveats but yes. So I have an older sister. We have been estranged for almost 14 years now, since the first- What's the age difference between you? We are very close in age. We're less than two years apart. So we were close growing up, less close as some things started to happen in our 20s, which I talk about on the podcast, most notably, she had a fake twin pregnancy that she allegedly lost about six months in.

And during that time, I really believed that pregnancy was real. I found out later that it wasn't. That was obviously a very trying time, but we did stay in each other's lives up until she was investigated the first time for abuse of her older child, her son. And because both my parents and I felt very concerned that that abuse was happening.

And that was the medical abuse. Yes, medical child abuse. So you know in that case, he followed what I've learned is a practically ubiquitous trajectory with these cases. He was born premature. He had failure to thrive, which is sort of the catchall term that they use for when babies have developmental issues, when they have, or delays, when they have feeding issues. So how old was he when this started to happen? I mean, it happened, it started right away, right? It kicks off with the premature birth.

Oh, okay. And then, you know, so he was in the NICU for a time now most babies born premature actually do really well in this day and age even the ones who are born you know very very early and he just continued to have issues and it was this you know what I've again learned is just extremely common in these cases which is sort of this collection of things that just didn't quite seem to make sense. And at the time, you know, my family and I had no knowledge about Munchausen by proxy.

This is not something that we knew about. I mean, I think my only exposure to it had been in that movie, The Sixth Sense, where there's the, Misha Barton plays the little girl ghost. Right. And that was when I first like, was like, oh like oh you know I feel like maybe I'd heard a little bit about it but prior to that that was like well over 20 years ago that movie came out with Bruce Willis and and Haley Joel Osmond was the kid and yeah he you know sees dead

people and he sees this little girl and she lets him know that the reason she died is because her mom kept feeding her this poison in the soup. And so, what I want to ask you though, in like being kind of an expert at this now, with your sister, were there cries for attention and lying as a kid that maybe were not at this level, but then got to a place of that? Yes, absolutely.

So my sister had munchausen behaviors, which is when you exaggerate, invent, or induce illness on yourself for the purposes of sympathy and attention. So munchausen by proxy is when you do those things to another person. So she had those behaviors. Really, I remember incidents mostly

from when she was a teenager. My parents remember incidents that go further back. And there are a lot of things that fit in this question mark territory, where I really can't be sure if that was something that she did to herself or if that was something that was real. And I think one of the biggest misconceptions is that if you can point to a real problem with a person

or with their child, that disproves that there's any of these behaviors going on, which isn't true. Sometimes there is a real underlying condition. But if you're exaggerating it, if you're making it worse, or if you're lying about it, then that still fits into this behavior. So with Megan, the biggest things that stuck out

that I absolutely know were not real. She, when we were in high school, started losing her hair. And as you can imagine, for a teenage girl, what could be worse? You're suddenly having these bald patches. And you know, so she, my mother took her to the dermatologist and the dermatologist told my mother, it's not falling out, she's shaving it.

So obviously that was very alarming. I think my sister was 17 at the time, so my mom at that point, I think, tried to go and get her some counseling, but she didn't want to do it, and it's hard to get. It's hard to get 17-year-olds to do anything that you want them to do it and it's hard to get, I mean, it's hard to get 17 year olds to do anything that you want them to do. So I think they just kind of, you know, let it go. And it wasn't as though someone pulled my parents aside and said, this could be a munchausen behavior. They just, it was like, okay, it's a weird thing for attention. But like teenage girls do weird things for attention. That's not completely, I mean, that's an extreme one. No, but I mean, they do, You know, I mean, it is.

One of the reasons I think this is so interesting is, yes, it's way more predominant in women, because most women are the main caregivers. But also, I believe, and this is a general statement, but I think it's true. I think women cry for attention a lot more than men in these kind of more elaborate ways. Social media, I mean, I've even said it, I cover a lot of Housewives, it's always like

the daughters that kind of want to be on the show more than the boys. Like I just think it's just that constant, there's more women and doing stuff on social media and TikTok and all that. I just think there is just more of an attention seeking thing that happens where they want to feel special. Well, I think, you know, there is such a gendered aspect to this, right? Yeah.

Because with Munchausen by proxy, 96% of perpetrators that we know about are women and it's usually mothers of children. And I've thought so much about this, right? Because one of the things that sometimes people say is like, oh, this is just another way to pathologize female behavior. You know, you're being unfeminist or unfair to women. And I've thought a lot about the gendered aspects.

And what I think is that people who are abusers are going to find power where they can. And one of the only places that we give women unchecked power and control is over their children. That's one of the only spheres that we really let women have power. And so that's where people who are going to be inclined to abuse are

going to abuse their power. And I think with the sort of attention seeking overall thing, you know, I heard this term only a few weeks ago, vulnerable narcissism, have you heard this? No. So, you know, narcissistic personality disorder, we usually think of it as the grandiose things, the like Elon Musk style people,

and now I don't know anything about Elon Musk's self, that's a speculation on my part, but that's sort of, you know, the really like larger than life kind of look at me and they're really looking for power, right? And so I think like this vulnerable narcissism is more about like give me attention for being a victim, you know, look at kind of that much sort of more feminine expression. And so that for me really sort of fit the bill of what these people do. And I think, you know, and we can talk about some of the moments

that Munchausen has had on reality television and Housewives specifically, because it did make a very notable appearance. Yeah, let's talk about that with Yolanda. So with Yolanda on Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, and you know, this was many years ago, but she started getting sick and everything, and she said it was Lyme disease. And she was doing all these different homeopathic things, and she was sharing it on social media

because, you know, she's on social media. She's a TV star. And she did get divorced because of that. Not because of that, but during that time got divorced. And it was Lisa Rinna who then like said, Oh, I've been getting people sending me this stuff. Could it be Munchausen's? And she like, what is that? They all act like they don't know what it is. And, you know, there's been speculation now that was it Lisa Vanderpump who told Lisa Rinna to do it. They

wanted to get it out just like they're doing now on these other shows where a lot of the storylines and things are coming from social media people that watch the show and give information. So, I always thought it was sort of suspicious and very strange. And then she said, and two of my children have it as well.

And then it came out, well, they both have Lyme. And it was like, people started doing some research about like, okay, your kids grew up in Malibu and Beverly Hills, and there's just, there aren't these ticks that bite you that are Lyme disease related. Did they spend a summer at a camp on the East Coast? No, they did not.

Like it was strange. And now we never hear about it from the model children that supposedly had it. Right. Yeah, I mean I have to say that season I did watch it. I'm sort of an on and off watcher of Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, but I mean now I cannot say for sure obviously whether or not this is much outside, but I mean it has a parade of red flags for it. So number one, Lyme disease in and of itself. Chronic Lyme. And this is not to say, and I always want to put this caveat out, this is not to say this is not a real condition. It is real. But it falls in this category of diseases that have unfortunately been

sort of infiltrated by people who are doing these behaviors because they fit into this thing of it could look like anything or it could look like nothing, right? So these chronic pain disorders, CRPS, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, chronic Lyme disease, not to say that they are not real, and they are horrible for the people who encounter them partly because they're not well understood by the medical establishment. And people do suffer and get misdiagnosed and all of those things are very real.

However, that also makes it just perfect for someone who wants to engage in these behaviors because you can say, as we saw Yolanda do throughout that season, oh, today's a good day or today's a bad day. And it comes and goes, and it could be anything, any time, depending on whether or not I want to go out to lunch

with these two and then skip this party at the last minute or today I want to be in bed all day and tomorrow I want to go on a yacht, right? And also, now she was a naturally beautiful woman and a model, but you're doing the TV show and I understand maybe you don't have a lot of effort to want to put on makeup. But lime or not, like you could have put on a little makeup, you could have had a makeup artist come in and do it. But it was just absolutely not even like a tinted lip gloss,

like to really, like to really send your message home. Oh, yes. Look how sick I am. Look how, you know, I've been bedridden. I can barely get out of bed. I can barely get ready. I mean, it was so funny how they all reacted to the idea of her showing up barefaced. I mean, it was just like, look how brave she is to come out of the house with no makeup. I mean, what a warrior. And I just thought, oh, she still looks beautiful. She's stunning, you know, but like, yes, it's sort of like, you know, yes, she had like a little she's stunning, you know? Yes. Yes, it's sort of like, you know, yes, she had like a little bit of a, you know,

probably just what a naturally, like what a woman who's maybe, you know, she said, oh, I'm not getting Botox because of Lyme disease and everything. And I'm like, yes, this is what a gorgeous woman of this age probably looks like without a full glam squad. It's not that she looks so horrifically ill. It's just that you all are not used to seeing faces that don't have, you know,

two hours worth of makeup on them. And the other things that really stuck out, I mean, she rents this other apartment because she can't be in the house for some reason. And she has the health advocate, Daisy, who's coming there. And whenever you see someone, and again, with the caveat that people who have chronic illnesses do end up having to educate their doctors, but it definitely is a red flag where they have the health advocate come and they have the big, and I don't know what this person's qualifications are. I didn definitely is a red flag where they have the health advocate come

and they have the big, and I don't know what this person's qualifications are, I didn't look her up, but they have the binder. There was some shady stuff with her, I don't remember where it was. I don't know where it was. So look it up yourself, I'm not saying it. Do your own research guys.

Coming in with the binders of, and there was actually, there was an article on the AMA, American Medical Association, about how this has really created a problem within Lyme disease is that people are getting misinformation and they're sort of doing their own research, which obviously can be necessary, but also can create a lot of,

you can get a lot of bad information about, especially chronic conditions like this. So, you know, and she shows the closet that's full of medications. And you had, I think it was Eileen, right, who was on there who just had a sister that had died. And so of course she was, you know, very sympathetic understandably to Yolanda.

And she said, oh, her apartment looks like my sister who is just in hospice for cancer. I mean, that's very notable. And then of course, with the children having it, which, you know, she has these obviously like three supermodel children, you know the chances of them all having Lyme disease and then on top of that all getting chronic Lyme disease, infinitesimal right? And then there's all of the sort of making it your identity right? So it's not just that she has Lyme disease, she brings it up every time she sees everyone and that could be editing, but then know, she's going to the gala,

and she's doing that, I mean, really, really making it such a huge part of your identity. And then we know that she was having, you know, this is another dynamic that we see all the time with Munchausen and Munchausen by proxy behaviors, since it is mostly women. You see the sort of absent husband dynamic, right? So we see during the season, David is traveling around.

He's this busy music I can't actually yeah, what specifically he does. Oh, he writes and produces the biggest songs. Yeah, right So he's you know, he's traveling all the time It's certainly you can see where she's sort of using it as a bid to kind of bring him back in right? Like you're having a crisis the point of this of this behavior is to get, you know, your emotional needs met. Right. And I think she even said something at one point where she said, like, you know, nobody like this sort of like when you first have an illness, everyone comes to your side and then they sort of disappear and sort of sort of

having these constant crisis and having to miss things and having to go with the surgery for the breast implants at the Cleveland Clinic and having David fly out there. I mean, sort of these dramatic bits for attention. And then sure enough, you see that whether because of this behavior or the behavior was a reaction to him pulling away anyway, we have no idea. But you know, you do see that their marriage falls apart in the end. Hey, our hair is different from other people's, right? Whether your strands are fine, medium or thick, what's great is whey has shampoo and conditioner. That's your type from volume and shine to deeply hydrating, which is what many of us need

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And she did go to prison because part of the cancer stuff was going to different churches, getting fundraiser money, getting this, getting that, people paying for her kids to do gymnastics. And it was always a constant thing. And she went online and was like, hey, warriors, I love the support and got all these people to follow her and love it that she was this young mom that was not giving up. And she would go so far as to like go to another state to get the treatment. And when finally this reporter somebody got was this like getting into it and then she used the

legal system to constantly sue try to sue this woman and have her life run, which is like, turned out she did go to prison. All this was fraudulent. And I was like, well, what was she doing going to New York? Well, she would get people to pay for her trip for the treatment. And she was like going to Broadway plays and stuff just by herself and like, and you know, never having anything wrong with her.

And you know, and I think it's and then you wonder, does the husband know? And you know, is the husband just so trapped and just such a in a weak position that he's just like, I don't really want to know the truth at this point, because this becomes so much of a reality. And in that case, he was benefiting from it too. People are paying their mortgage and rent and it was a crazy story or like the story of the Brooks faking cancer. Yes. Yeah. I mean, and there are... On O.C. with Vicki. Yeah. There are male cases, right? This does happen with men also. And I think that there

is also a chance that it might just be also under-recognized in men. And there is also a separate behavior called malingering, which is when you're doing those specifically for the financial rewards. It's not about the intrinsic reward of the emotional gratification and the attention. But many of these cases do cross over. You see so much fraudulent fundraising.

So when people are held accountable in a court of law, it usually is because they were able to bust them on the fraudulent fundraising. But we see so many GoFundMe's with kids, the Make-A-Wish Foundation shows up in every case, the Poor Make-A-Wish Foundation. Yeah, and I mean, it's really like that it goes to kind of the harm that it causes is that people are putting

their money and just also their attention, their caretaking. I mean, it's a huge betrayal to be on the other side of one of these. So you did watch those, did you watch the OC seasons of that, of Brooks and Faking Cancer? No, I think I sort of dipped in and out of the OC. Okay, to remind people, this is what's really interesting

because before it all got exposed, so Vicki was married to Dawn, her second husband for many years. She, this is my memory and from watching the show, it's my opinion, she meets Brooks at something. And I think they were sort of, I don't know, dabbling in a little bit of like being able to date other people, I don't know how much they were committed.

And she tells Tamara, cause Tamara reveals this on the reunion, that this person that she felt she had a connection with has cancer and could die. And she's like, why didn't I pursue that? I feel like that is my real person, who is Brooks. Now I don't know if he then recovered from it, then they got together and then it came back, which would make us realize that why she would believe it.

If he said the lie before, because a lot of it was like, how much did Vicki know? What did she know? Now I always felt that as it went on and Megan King-Edmonds and Heather Dubrow, who's married to a doctor, were kind of like putting the pieces together, like, oh, he didn't go to Hogue Hospital, he didn't do these things. I think she started to realize this could be BS. But then was so far deep with the cameras and everything that she was like, and then she did, she a little bit had the sympathy card being like, why was I being nailed to the cross? Like, Jesus Christ, I just wanted some casseroles.

If my living boyfriend has cancer, why were you just not bringing me casseroles and feeling sorry for us? And that's when it made me think, and I guess we'll never know the truth, but I would love for her to come clean and be like, I totally believed it, totally believed it. And then on this day I realized, oh fuck.

And either we had a conversation and was like, this is the new plan to get us through this season. Or did she keep it to herself because she was still in love with him and didn't really want to lose him yet and was like just like a man might not want to blow up his family because his wife is doing this thing and he almost is lying to himself being like well I do think that my daughter is sick or whatever. What is your thought? Yeah I mean and I want to extend some sympathy to Vicky because, you know, I've been in her shoes, right?

Like my sister faked an entire pregnancy and I, I mean, I try and sort of project myself back to that. Like, how did I just let that go? And we sort of blamed the boyfriend. Oh, it was his fault. She was, I mean, which makes no sense at all. But when someone that you love does this to you, I mean, which makes no sense at all. But when someone that you love does this to you, it's so disorienting. It's so, you know, it's just, it's such a betrayal. It's so hard to accept. I mean, you have to then accept

that they're doing it on purpose, right? And that they have been lying to you. And basically the reality that you've been living in isn't real. It's not easy to accept. And denial is a very, very strong human emotion, right? Like we will stay in denial to keep our lives, you know, intact for, I mean, some people really go all the way

over the cliff with this. I mean, I've seen this with my brother-in-law and his parents, you know, two investigations, just so much evidence presented to them. And they still are just sort of, you know, and you go further and further out into sort of conspiracy theory behavior to explain it. So I'm not surprised, especially with that much attention

on you, that it's partly like you're embarrassed, you wanna save face. I mean, it's an element of grifting too, where it's like you start a lie, and then you just, I don't know if you partially believe it yourself. I don't know if you're just like, I'm too deep. Now with your sister's fake pregnancy, did it get to a place where she like patted her stomach?

Yeah, I mean, Heather, she was wearing maternity clothes. We had a baby shower and truly the most disorienting moment of my life. I was home for the holidays. I was living in New York at the time know, I was home for the holidays, I was living in New York at the time, and I was home for the holidays, and she was allegedly pregnant with twin girls, and she had named them, and she said,

"'Oh, put your hand on my stomach, the baby's kicking.' And I put my hand on her stomach, and I thought I felt a baby kick. I don't know what that was, presumably I was not suffering from delusions. But it just, you know, when you believe, I believed her so wholeheartedly and I just didn't, I don't, I can't explain it, right? But it's, you really like, she sort of created this reality distortion field around her.

And then, you know, when she lost the babies that were there. Did she ever admit, too, that they didn't exist? You know, in a sort of dodgy way, right? And this was always how it was with her. And again, something I've learned is really ubiquitous about the personality that engages with this.

Like, you could never pin her down. And that was the other thing when I was watching the Yolanda season, where I was like, yes, they're trying to pin her down. I'm like, well, Yolanda, why are you posting this and then this? And then she's like, how could you accuse me? You know, it becomes this very defensive thing.

Like how could you accuse me of lying about this? Same with Vicky, like Vicky's like, I made all the binders. She was the binder girl. I made all the binders. A lot of people go to Office Depot. I made all the binders and you know, I sat in the waiting room, but I didn't go in.

Right. You just kind of overload people with information. So with Megan, we eventually, my mother, I think the thing that really just how it fell apart was she had called me and told me, narrated this whole thing, losing these babies from the hospital and they're doing this and they're turning me upside down and this, that and the other thing. And, you know, it narrated this whole really emotional story, which I was really thought was happening. So I mean, I was really heartbroken for I was heartbroken because I thought I was going to be an auntie.

And then very quickly after, you know, my father called me and said, this story just isn't adding up. And they had found this paperwork in my sister's apartment that she had been admitted to the hospital that same day that she allegedly lost the babies for dehydration. So she had gone to the hospital, but there was nothing there about a pregnancy. And then we started sort of trying to corroborate stories.

And I talked to her best friend, who I'd been very close with growing up myself. And she had told my sister. So she told me that her best friend had taken her to the hospital when she wanted to labor because her alleged fiance who was not her fiance anymore was out of town and she told her best friend that her fiance had made it back in time and had told her, had taken her to the hospital. So she just told different stories to everyone. So it sort of became, again, it's this pattern of like, lie, minimize, justify, and then, you know, project, right? So it went from this is the story to, okay, well, I was pregnant, but I lost it earlier,

and I didn't want to tell anybody for some reason to, okay, well, I wasn't, but I did it because, you know, my fiance had left me. And if you are inclined to believe it, because I was not ready, and this is in my 20s, I was not ready to believe that my sister was capable of this. So I just made excuses for her, right? I just was like, yeah, you're right. It was your bad boyfriend and it was his fault.

And okay, I believe, you know, just, and we just moved past it, you know right. It was your bad boyfriend and it was his fault. And okay, I believe, you know, just, and we just moved past it, you know, and at that point in her life, and my sister is very, very smart. She's very charming. She's very charismatic. She seems very normal.

If you were to meet her in a normal, you know, sort of situation, you would just think she was this lovely, nice, you know, kind of mom next door. And so she's so convincing and at that point you know she then met her now husband and so we're like OK it was a rough patch but she moved past it and you just kind of move along because that is the easier thing to do than face what's going on.

Well I think you know since the beginning of time people have faked pregnancies. Yes. Since the Bible story of the woman saying, that's my baby, and that's the other woman going, no, it was my baby. And then the guy goes, well, I'll cut it in half. And then the one said, no, then she can have the baby.

And he's like, well, you're the real mother. Yeah. This one, you know, two people faking pregnancies. I love, by the way, that not wanting to cut a baby in half is like the standard, like, that a normal woman who's not the mother would be like, nope, cut him in half.

I mean, like, it's a wild story. Who knows if these stories were made? But the point of it is like, the selflessness of a mom would be like, I'll give up my baby rather than that, you know? But from the beginning of time, people have made up pregnancies to get a man, get money, you know, that's why, I mean, that's why I think

in the gold-digging world, there's a lot of men that are choosing to get vasectomies early on, and they'll still put their sperm to the side, and they'll have a vasectomy, and you know, that still is not 100%. I didn't know that was a whole strategy, wow. It's a Hollywood thing that's kind of happening on the DL. OK.

Oh, that's so interesting. Get the vasectomy and keep your sperm saved. But this way, you can't have someone, you're not going to be having babies with people that you aren't ready to have babies with. But women will lie about it for attention. I know someone that, you know, close to me that would lie about pregnancies,

but she'd never go so far as to say that she had a miscarriage or pretend to be pregnant. She would just be like, "'Well, I'm pregnant again,' and da-da-da-da." And I'd be like, "'Oh my God.'" And then like a couple of days later, "'Oh, no, it was a false test or whatever. But for those three or four days,

it was drama because she's not getting along with her husband and everyone's on the phone with her. And it's like, you know, but like, so yeah, I mean, it happens. And then the extreme is faking the pregnancy and then killing a pregnant woman and stealing their baby. And then so that your lie is done and because you want a baby. I mean, those crimes are horrific and they've happened,

unfortunately, more than once. And it's like, wow. Now, in our biggest cases of Munchausen's, obviously Gypsy Rose Blanchard, and with her whatever whatever what's going on now with like her celebrity and everything which I'm like okay with like I think she's like handling it really well and I'm glad she's not with that guy anymore that looks like her mother but you know in that case it was a very similar thing this it was kind of a one-night stand with her dad and thank God she stand with her dad. And thank God she's with her dad and stepmom now. But like, so it started there.

And then because she had all these ailments, he appreciated that this woman was taking care of their daughter. And you know, he certainly couldn't do it. Also, I think it's like, I just hear my mom, like rest in peace, my mom's path, but like where she would always be like, that woman's a saint. Like if someone had something going on or a child that, you know, struggled or whatever

the case, it was always, you know, that woman's a saint. Yeah, like don't leave that woman alone. That woman's a saint, you know, like we can never say a bad thing about that woman because you know, that martyrness. Right. And I think, you know, the biggest question that people have especially with munchausen by proxy cases where they're harming their child is you know why why would anyone do this if you've you know you have kids I have kids your

kid gets a little bit sick or has a few is the worst. You know like I would take it on like you're freaking out. I wish I could have I wish I would be throwing up if my child's throwing up I'm like I would throw up for you if I could. Right. Because you know, you have a 24 hour stomach flu and you're like, oh no, I feel so bad for my kid who can't keep any food done for 24 hours, yeah. Yeah, it's horrific to watch your child suffer.

And so I think, you know, that's what makes it so hard for people to believe, but I think, you know, and with these cases, there is a piece of it where you can see what they're getting out of it, right? It's like they get money. A lot of times people do, funny as that was certainly the case in the Indeedee Blanchard's case, where they got their home from Habitat for Humanity, and you get people just going out of their way. And I mean, people, there is no more sympathetic figure in the world, to your point, than a mother with a sick child. So if someone's inclined to exploit that,

which most people never would, most people would not take the trade off of all that attention for actually having a sick child, but there are people that do. And then the other big case was the Maya documentary. What was the name of the actual documentary? Well, I refer to it as a film rather than a documentary. But yes, Take Care of Maya on Netflix.

Take Care of Maya. And we did a Juicy Crime on it, which is on my Patreon. And you know, we were not, my sister Shannon and I were not as sympathetic as most were that watched that. I felt for the medical professionals for the mere fact that we're told about abuse, if you see something, say something, all this kind of stuff, it's a lot of extra work for these medical professionals to go the extra mile.

I mean, most of the time these people get away with it because they go from doctor to doctor to doctor and nobody goes and checks on the last doctor. Hey, did you have this person come in? No, they're getting along with their day and these people are busy. So I'm like, what are they benefiting by questioning it? And the whole thing was unfortunate,

but I also feel, you know, in the end, the mother so distraught by being accused of this, you know, ends her life. Well, I do believe if you, I'm sorry, if you end your life, that is your decision. And it's not because someone accused you of something or somebody broke up with you or, you know, or maybe you're doing it because you murdered someone, you're going to go to prison for the rest of your life. But like, so I don't think that can be a reason of, oh, obviously, if she went to if she had she that's if you end your life, you obviously are mentally very much

hurting and disturbed. That is not a rational thing that someone does. Right. Like unless you're going to electric chair and you have the opportunity to end your life. Like I don't see why, you know, and that's what's so hard about it, why people need to get help when they start to feel that way because it's not irrational, it's not a good decision, and you know. Right, and obviously that is a horrible outcome for one of these cases.

Right. And there should have been, you know, measures put in place to make sure that someone was looking after her. I mean, the circumstances around her, we've covered this case in our third season and I have read thousands of pages of court documents. I watched every moment of the trial.

The Kowalski's got a $261 million verdict in court. That's now headed for appeals, so we'll have to see how that all plays out. But one of the things was that they implicated the hospital for Beata's death. And the circumstances around her death were so bizarre. I had so many questions. I still, I have yet more questions, you know,

after listening to her brother's testimony about how that all went down. It's just very strange. And, you know, the case itself, as I dug into it, I mean, to say that there was so much left out of the film is the understatement of the century. And really, you know, the origins of this film, as I know from listening to interviews with Caitlin Keating, one of the film is the understatement of the century. And really, you know, the origins of this film, as I know from listening to interviews with Caitlin Keating,

one of the film's producers, you know, she read about this story in the local outlet where it was covered originally, and she called Gregory Anderson, who was the lead attorney for the plaintiffs in the case, and that's how she was introduced to the Kowalski family. And I really, you know, looking at everything in this case, I'm like, this really was a PR vehicle for their lawsuit. I mean, they had maybe seven minutes or something

of testimony from the doctors that was put, put them in the worst possible light. The reality was this was a nine year old girl who came in, or I think she was 10 by the time she was hospitalized. She was given 55 infusions of ketamine that were, you know, 50 times what an adult dosage would be for this condition that she allegedly had. You know, excuse me, it's, I always want to say it's chronic regional, but it's complex regional pain syndrome, which is another one of these, you know, sort of somewhat murky diagnosis, definitely real, but very, you know, hard to sort of, can be hard to pin down.

I really came to the conclusion that this was not a real diagnosis because Beata, you know, was communicating. There was a lot that came out. This happened in Florida. The sunshine laws are very permissive. So a lot came out. You know, Beata had a blog that she kept in Maya's voice about, you know, narrating her journey. And she also had all these- The mom was doing a blog? The mom did a blog in Maya's voice. On social media. On social media. And then had a bunch of, I think there was nine social media accounts that were subpoenaed by the police.

Those in the middle of a criminal investigation for medical child abuse when she died. She had nine social media accounts. Nine social media accounts that were dedicated most in Maya's voice, right? The blog, I've read the whole thing. It's incredibly disturbing. There's innumerable pictures of Maya. accounts that were dedicated, you know, most in Maya's voice, right? The blog, I've read the whole thing. It's incredibly disturbing.

There's innumerable pictures of Maya. I think there was, I redacted the photos when I released the blog because I really feel strongly that, you know, pictures of kids in medical settings should not be shared on the internet. Just full stop. There was like 14 pictures of her in a coma. She went into this, you know, to Mexico for this five-day, you know, medically induced ketamine coma that was, you know, the doctor told them had a

50-50% chance of death for a diagnosis that was not real. And I'm comfortable saying that because Beata Kowalski was on a message board for parents with children with CRPS. And she said, I'm trying to get this diagnosis. She'd been to three world-class hospitals by that time that all had diagnosed Maya with something called conversion disorder, which is when you have a physical manifestation of emotional symptoms. It doesn't mean it's all in your head.

The symptoms are real, the feelings are real, but it's just, you know, it's not this other thing that she was saying that she had CRPS. So she was looking for the specific diagnosis and a fellow parent told her, go to Dr. Anthony Kirkpatrick, he will give you the, he's the best one, he'll give you the diagnosis. So she reported, Beata reported to a pulmonologist

a week before she saw Dr. Kirkpatrick, who was in the film and who testified on the stand, that Maya was, had CRPS. So she gave her that diagnosis, not a doctor. And when she came into the hospital, when she ended up under this shelter order in Johns Hopkins, all children's, she was insisting that they give her this massive dose of ketamine that was not, you know, part of their, it was, it's not the, you know, it's not the standard of treatment. So they were not going to do it. That's not something they did in that hospital.

You don't just give whatever a parent tells you to give. And she was insisting on it. And what she started to say, which was one of the things that really raised the red flag, was she said, if you, and I'm paraphrasing a little bit, so I remember the exact quote, but if you do not give her this treatment that I'm asking for, I may as well just take her home and put her in hospice because she doesn't want to live like this anymore. So I'll put her in hospice so she can finally die. This is a 10 year old that has allegedly a condition that is not life threatening.

And this really mirrors, you know, when I first heard that, that just made me feel sick because this mirrors other cases that we know about, like the Olivia Gantt case in Colorado, where a mother did just that. She took her child home and put her in home hospice where she died. She starved to death. And that was not discovered until that parent took her older child in for cancer treatment that she did not need. And then the grandparents of Olivia Gantt started to suspect. They looked into this case, and the hospital

had suspected this mom of Munchausen by proxy. And they let her take her child home and put her in hospice care where she died. So this is not without precedent. Well, I mean, it's like it's the fear of telling other parents, like, if you don't allow your child to, you know, whatever, change their gender at this age, whatever, do you want at this age, whatever.

Do you want a dead child? Do you want a suicidal child? Or do you want that? You know, it's that kind of stuff that just the fear of it, whether it's to a medical professional or an apparent, it's like that language is just so like, wait a minute. You know, like this is that is terrible. Yeah. And it's, you know, as you said, like I also really sympathize with, and not only do medical professionals

not get anything out of this, they suffer. I mean, Dr. Sally Smith, who I had on the show, was an extremely experienced child abuse pediatrician who evaluated this case. And you know, her opinion went to the courts. The other thing is they kept saying the hospital was holding them. The hospital had no desire to have this child

under shelter there. They knew that this family was upset about that. They tried to transfer her to Nemours, which is a nearby hospital. Beata didn't want her transferred there because they wouldn't give her this other really invasive treatment. So they were trying to transfer her. It just was a mess, right? So the court ordered them to keep that child there. They did not kidnap, you know, this term medical kidnapping, they did not kidnap her child. But Dr. Sally Smith, you know, who did the evaluation in this case, and the shelter order definitely was in part, you know, in large part based on that. I believe those doctors' interventions saved Maya Kowalski's life. This was not headed in a good direction.

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if before this appeal comes up, that the attorneys for the hospitals don't find a really good film company to do that documentary. Because it is. I mean, people are so swayed by a movie you see, or a documentary, or whatever. Well, I want to get going here, because you are an incredible author and you have a new juicy book out along with all your podcasts. Tell us a little bit about this book, Women Are the Fiercest Creatures.

Yes. And this is a novel, so this is like a juicy escape. Yes, yes. So yes, if you are not in the mood to listen to many hours of me talking about early child abuse cases, if you would like to have a little peek at the more fun side of my life, my novels, very juicy, I always describe them as like family dramas crossed with psychological thrillers. Which I love. Yeah, so this is my fourth novel, Women Are the Fiercest Creatures came out about a year ago

from Zibi Books, and this is the story of the books and this is the story of the current wife, the ex-wife and the ex-girlfriend of a tech entrepreneur whose lives converge and they all have children by him and so it is a big sort of like if you liked Big Little Lies, I think you'll like this one. So it's a lot about sort of, you know, female ambition and just sort of the complicated nature of being in midlife, right? I'm 42, so I'm kind of at the, you know, early stage of midlife and I just think things, this is when things really get interesting. So this is sort of my, like, I call it a coming of

middle-age book. So, Andrea, tell everybody where they can find your podcast, your Instagram, get your books, and all of that. Yes, so my books are available wherever books are sold. I actually have my first nonfiction book coming out in February, which I co-authored with Detective Mike Weber, who is the detective that's been on the podcast a bunch of times. So we're covering three of his cases.

So that's called The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Medicine Deception and Munchausen by Proxy. Juicy. So that's coming out next February from St. Martin's. So you can find all five of my books wherever books are sold. Pre-orders are much appreciated. Any author knows that. Those are a huge deal. And my podcast, Nobody Should Believe Me, you can find wherever you listen to podcasts. And you can find me at Andrea Dunlop on Instagram. Yes, thank you so much for coming. I really enjoyed talking to you. Oh, thank you. I really appreciate being here and the chance to talk to your listeners. Thank you. Love the Juicy Scoopers.

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