Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald - Murders in Newport Beach and Sex on Hollywood Set

Episode Date: August 2, 2022

Will Smith interviewed himself and apologized. Real Housewife of Beverly Hills transfers to Orange County. Actress Florence Pugh is allegedly upset about her director Olivia Wilde’s affair with costar Harry Styles. Then Matt Murphy, who you know from 20/20 and the Hulu show Fatal Flaw gets into detail about his life as a prosecutor. Matt prosecuted many cases in Newport Beach, two of which involved murders. The first involved a sugar baby, a wealthy older man, and the sugar baby’s boyfriend. The second one involved a couple, their yacht, and the heartless murderer who wanted it. We get into details of these crimes, how he went into prosecuting them, what the defense was and where they are today.  Subscribe on Apple Podcasts to get exclusive Extra Juicy episodes every Friday and get all episodes of Juicy Scoop, ad-free Or get access to Extra Juicy on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/juicyscoop To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail]   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Head of McDonald Has got the juices scoop When you're on the road, when you're on the go Juice is scoop is the show to know She talks Hollywood tales Her real life, Mr. Sanctuary, real data And serial sister, you'll be addicted And a-ticks it fast

To the number one tabloid real life podcast Listen in, listen up. Woo, woo, and a McDonald. Juicy scoop. Hello and welcome to Juicy scoop. Well, I've got real juicy crimes happening because I have the prosecutor of those crimes, Matt Murphy, here in person, we went over them

and they were, he was actually the prosecutor of these crimes and he's you'll recognize him He's done many consulting jobs on 2020 date line and now his new show on Hulu fatal flaw But first let me just get into the hottest topics that happen over the weekend Big bravo housewife news Taylor Armstrong originally a real house doesn't Beverly Hills recently seen on girls trip at Durinda's house She's joining Tamra on OC this is the first Cross over this kind of like a historic moment in real house wise because she came from Beverly Hills Franchise and she is being plopped onto OC

So this could be really juicy like Cynthia Bailey lives here in LA. Could she ever be on Beverly Hills or things like that that I think might be kind of fun as we move forward and do different things with housewives. Also, super juicy news, kind of like a housewife situation, but Will Smith has spoken after three months. He did a video and it was kind of smart the way he did it. I think it's a great thing to address when you've been canceled. Maybe don't give some other person this big interview opportunity to ask you the questions or whatever to have full control. And he basically, like a housewife, sat down and answered questions from the fans.

And so he'd say the question and answer them. He said that he obviously feels terrible. He hates hurting people. He has reached out to Chris Rock. And Chris Rock said he's just not ready to talk yet. He feels really badly about Tony Rock because he and Tony were really good friends. And he doesn't think that that relationship will ever be

repaired. And then he said said a lot of you asked did Jada tell me to do something? No Jada never tell did not want me to do anything so he covered Jada's ass. Now I'm like okay this obviously was a decision they made as a family as a couple for him to do it this way which I like said, I think it's a really great way to get your side out of it. We see you speaking, but it's not done on like a 2020 or something. But, come on. Like, Jayda's gotta be a little bummed.

He's not on red table talk. Because I don't really see a lot of people talking about red table talk anymore. People were super excited about the last couple years when she had Jordan who cheated with Tristan. You know, that was real juicy. She had Olivia Jade who got into USC as pretending to row there. You know, she had these kind of like, ooh, that's sort of... I haven't heard much buzz about the show. So, but I do think

for Will, maybe not for Jada for Will, this was the right thing to do. So people are feeling, I think, very responsive to him in a positive way. We'll see. I don't know if he'll ever get to that status of the kind of movie star person he was. I definitely think he'll work again, but I just don't think he'll be that go-to guy like he has been for the last 10 years for like a blockbuster movie. Oh, this is also really juicy in the movies. I went to the movie theater and I saw a

preview of a movie called Don't worry Darling. It is the only movie I'm excited to see. It's coming out in a few months and this is the movie that Olivia Wilde directed and Harry Styles is in and that's when they fell in love. One of the stars of that movie called Florence, I don't know how pronounced your last name. It looks so juicy though, first of all. It's like shot in Palm Springs in the 60s and there's some secret thing that's happening with all these couples where the husbands work together. And I love a 1960s, Palm Springs vibes.

Already I love it and it's juicy, it looks a little swingery, like I don't know, it looks great. But Florence apparently, like a source close to Florence, is saying that she is not happy, was not happy on set when the affair started happening between her director, Olivia Wilde, and her co-star, Harry Styles.

Some people are like, well, God, did you want Harry Styles for yourself? No, I think it's not a cool thing when that happens on any movie set, because I think the director needs to have, you know, like an impartial view of all the players, and it's just the most important role on the film is really the director of the film and so I don't think that she felt it was cool and as you might

have thought it took away from the vibe on set. One story that I always remember was Knight at Throxbury, okay, that was Will Ferrell and Chris Catan and they were best friends and they did this movie. At that time it is out that he had a romantic affair, Kris Kratan, with the female director. And after that, I believe it was in Kris Kratan's book, but they were no longer as close him and what he and Will, that they still did sketches together, they still worked at SNL, but that it really bothered Will that this happened on this movie that they were doing together. It just was not something he agreed with. I think professionally, morally, but really it's like a professional thing. And it was his good friend and he didn't appreciate

that his good friend pursued this relationship with the female director. So I think that's really the juicy part of it. I don't think it's, you know, if in fact this is true or it could be that Olivia Wilde's person or the studio is throwing this story out so that people like me will talk about it and say I'm dying to see this movie. Let's remember everybody, this movie's coming out in a few months.

So you never know where these things really come from and how much truth they are but it is kind of a juicy thing to discuss. Okay, you guys, now for my very juicy interview with Matt Murphy. Hello, and welcome to juicy scoop. Well, I'm very excited because I've seen you on a million shows. I'm talking to Matt Murphy. When you see his face, you're going to say, yes, I have seen him on because all my juicy

scupers love juicy crimes. And you seem to cover a lot of them. But you are also a senior deputy DA for Orange County, which you're explaining a minute. But welcome to the show. We're going to talk about lots of juicy crimes that happened right here in Newport and Orange County. Welcome to juicy scu. Thank you.

Happy to be here. I'm so glad I reached out to you and that you're able to come here because this is like really the highlight of my five week stay in the OC. Wow, okay. Yeah. A lot of pressure.

But a little bit of background on you just so people know who they're listening to. You were just saying like what your former position was, how you became, you know, on all these cases. So just give the slow background. So I was a, I was a deputy DA in the Orange County DA's office. I did that for 26 years. I kind of stumbled into it. And I was a law clerk. I can't believe it. 30 years ago this summer. And I knew at the end of the very first day that I was completely hooked. And my original plan is I want to be a DA for three years. And then 26 years later, it was like,

I really have to like move on with my life. So, where did you go to law school? Went in San Diego, University of San Diego. Went to UCSB, Prondo Grat, grew up in LA, from Toloila High School. And I went to Louisville. Oh, you went to Louisville? Yes, in my son's life. In my son's head.

Cresby. Okay. I dated somebody from Louisville in high school. Oh, the stories. Oh, the stories I can tell. But Louisville. Yeah. So I had some background in sexual assault education in college.

So I kind of got recruited. I got the FBI was really interested in me and women who had Kathy Harper from the Orange Kennedy A. So I basically got recruited in and I loved it. And it's like you, you, you, trying cases is a craft, you know, like anything else like being a comedian. It's a craft to get better and better over time. And like, it's not this similar in a lot of ways because you're standing up in front of a group of people and you are essentially persuading them. The longer you stay and the more serious the cases get, the more skill you become, the more power you have to make it right and to the degree that it can be.

So I went to sexual assault for four years. First you start with misdemeanors and you get into what's called the felony panel where you're doing generic felony jury trials and then they assign you to a specialized unit and an orange county that are called vertical units. So the way it works is you get assigned to a specialized area whether it's auto fraud or gangs or for me I went to sexual assault and then you get certain cities assigned to you and then depending on how you do in your first vertical unit off the panel you might have a shot at the homicide unit. So there's roughly 300 lawyers a little bit less assigned to the Orange County Gays office and there's eight that are assigned

to homicide. So if you get to that level, then you start to immerse, and then you get cities. So my cities were customary. So they're going to be each new port in Irvine. And so I was in the unit for 17 years. We would go to all of our own crime scenes. We get the call out in the middle of the night. You go with your assigned investigator,

because we have a partnership with a police officer within the DA's office. And then you work the same cops over and over again on all these different cases and it's pretty awesome. And so and then some of them were very high profile because they are the juicy crimes that I talk about. They involve affairs and money and deception and murder for hire and one that I remembered and then my friend reminded me when I said where I was running this house she goes you got to check out this crime

and started to tell me about it and I'm like of course I know this one and why don't you give the the breath of it to our people because you could probably explain it better than I am but you can watch it it was was it date line or 2020 2020 just did two hours on it Okay, and it's and it's an awesome episode And it's the victim's name was guy, and it was your case. It was my case Yeah, so this was I mean, it's funny. I was a couple minutes late Showing up here, and I'm I'm at the freeway and we timed the drive so many different times I knew exactly how long how late I was gonna be when I showed up here because it's the same gate.

The last time I was here was for 2020, the time before that, and his gated little bell bell of coach's community, the time before that was all related to that case. So basically what happened was it's the plot to body heat. You know, the old, and I think body heat with the Kathleen Turner and William Hurt. And I think that was a redone no-r from the 30s,

which was a redone plot from when I mean, that scenario has probably repeated itself since K-Manday's. Right, the classic where the woman gets her lover to kill her husband. Or the older man with resources that gets duped into a relationship with a woman who then manipulates a young man to kill him and then makes off with the loot. And that is one of the scenarios and murders. And there's a lot. There's been a lot.

There's been a lot. So this was Bill McLaughlin was, first of all, he's a very good man. He invented the subterfuge. If you ever had a peer peace shot, or that's getting big right now for cosmetic stuff, I just had a Durham Sand, he'd peer a pee in my face after all the Sunday match from the years of surfing. But basically, that plasma gets separated from blood and a subterfuge that was invented by Bill McLaughlin and his business partner in the late 80s. And huge medical advance is still being used today.

So he actually contributed to the world. And he had three kids. And even though they grew up here with a lot of money, there's some of the nicest people I encountered as a prosecutor ever. Well, I mean, just, you know, this happened in 1994. Right. And at his time of murder death, he had $55 million. And the house, I mean, this is nice, you know, but I mean,

he certainly wasn't overspending or flashier. And he think of the house as a nice house, but not a 50, and then 55 million is probably worth 150 today, who the hell knows. But like, I was kind of like, oh, all right. So the fact that this young girl in the net kind of went after him, I wonder if even entering this relationship, if she even was aware at that time of the enormous amount of wealth,

not just a guy that can, you know, support your, support your home and your kids and give you a car, but like real life changing, generational changing well. Right. Well, women like this, there's one thing I learned in 17 years in that unit. And I mean, not just women, dirty John was one of my cases. So John me and that was another new poor one, people like this, they can smell money like shark's mobile. So, it's a fundamentally, it's a predatory thing, and I guarantee that in a net, the second she laid eyes on that guy, she knew. Like one of those things where they, like, where you know, the shoe, the watch, the way he talks to a staff, you know, some staff, you know,

like really wealthy people actually treat staff the best because they've had them for so long and they know they, you know, little things like that that people don't realize, like they're not, you know, it's the new barrage that's, you know, and the people that didn't work hard for it, that are the assholes. And not only that, but this guy was, he came from modest means. I mean, so he was one of those guys, was a kid, and he was in the Marine Corps, and he had a very interesting life, so he's married for 30 years, and he gets divorced,

and I think a lot of us have not been this, I've unfortunately gone through this, where you're in a relationship with a really good person, and for whatever reason, the relationship ends, right? Well, there it's a marriage, or whatever, he'd been married for 30 years, he gets divorced and his picker was completely broken so the first woman he dates is no game he is no game he has and he has no more importantly I don't think a guy like that has any idea like

how much has to offer in a relationship you know much older he's not a handsome as he once was and I think he limps into the next thing. I mean, we all kind of do that. Well, the thing you got is someone that was married for 30 years, and that means he got married in his early 20s. Right. And so it's like, how many girls did he even have sex with before he found his wife? Right. So that the gay is so off.

Right. And I didn't even know how to talk to people. Yeah, and you didn't have all the dating out for these guys to get all the experience quickly. Right, right. So she actually put an ad out. And we will never know how they actually met, but you put an ad out in a singles magazine

because pre-internet, that's what it was. A Boudoir photo of her and Neglige is saying, I know how to take care of my man. If he knows how to take care of me, and it was entitled, wealthy men only. So everybody kind of wondered if he answered that, nobody really knows, and the story kind of shifted, but so he's this really good guy who's got a lot of money,

and he begins dating a woman who is hell-bent on taking it. And high-larity ensues. So after they start dating his son, Kevin, and this is tragic, gets hit by a drunk driver as he's skateboarding So Kevin is like your classic new four beach kid. He's a surfer. He's got blonde hair. He's strikingly handsome He plays water polo And you know, so he's raised here right down the street from where we are right now. He's a good kid skateboarding gets hit by a drunk and suffers severe brain damage

So net is able to kind of inject herself into this and starts you know He's a good kid. skateboarding gets hit by a drunk and suffers severe brain damage. So, Nett is able to kind of inject herself into this and starts, you know, she like ambulanceers herself in and is taking care of him and taking her medical appointments, which opened up with soft spot and vocal offense heart. So, then what she starts doing is she moves in, moves the daughters stuff out. So, there's two daughters that still had rooms there. They're both adults, they've, you know, like early 20s and moved her kids into the house. They're together for about four years. And I think she realizes at a certain

point, he's not actually going to marry her. And he'd out of a sector meeting and she wanted to lock it down with a baby. So I think she started realizing that maybe this gravy train wasn't forever. And it's actually really clever what she did. So he's got multiple bank accounts and she convinced him, hey, look, let's open a new one, a joint check in account. So I can just handle the household expenses, the May, the gardener, whatever needs to be done, which is kind of genius.

Because what that means is she starts transferring, if she had a separate bank account and she goes in and transfers money or search writing checks against his account, four tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars, that's going to catch somebody's attention. But because this is one of his accounts, she's funneling all this money, she's transferring money from his accounts, faking his signature, into another one of his accounts, but she has legal access to that. So it's clever. Meanwhile, so she starts stealing. She also moves her two little kids in from her first husband. Right. Now, they also, this is kind of telling, maybe, he had full custody of the kids, her ex-husband.

So you've got a woman who's... Which is so rare, especially back in 1994. Yeah, it's rare and it's a red flag. But Bill McGLaughlin, she still spent a lot of time with her kids, and she loved her kids by all accounts. And Bill McGLaughlin was good to her children. We've got all these photos of them together, sitting together. So he didn't want to have new kids, but he was really good to her kids.

And meanwhile, she starts dating a guy named Eric Meposky, who is a trainer at a gym. He's an NFL washout, freakish athlete. And he's from a place called Yorktown Heights, New York, played for the New England Patriots for three games before he had a grind injury. And then he's kind of one of these semi-pro vagabond football players, his big dreams, but can't quite make it into the big time. So he's on a bunch of practice squads

for various NFL teams, played for NFL Canada, went to NFL Europe, and basically wants out here working as a bouncer. And there's a place right across the channel, called the Thunderbird Night Club, which is 136 yards away from is our as is now. Yes. Oh, okay. That's what I think you're yeah, you can literally see it Yeah across the channel and he gets a job there two weeks before the murder so you so when we Been look off and gets shot six times in his kitchen

And he's gone through this kind of contentious litigation with the former business partner So the former business partner. So the former business partner, and it looked like he was going to win it. And he was prime suspect number one, and he's eliminated very quickly because he's got a rock solid, Alabama in Santa Barbara. Okay, so I have a question now because in watching, you know, I only really watched the stuff and then read some as much as I could find on where they are today. I believe that they were engaged and part of that engagement between Bill and Annette was

that he did set up something in which she would get a million dollars whether he died before they were married or not. Would still a million is not as much as she could gain if she became the wife. Right. So she had provisions in the will, but what she also did, she manipulated herself into becoming the trustee of his estate. And that's where the real stealing can go on, because she's a trustee, because she's going to have access to all that. And essentially what happens is, so he gets murdered, there's a key that's left in the door, and there's

a pedestrian gate key that's dropped on the mat. And those are huge. The key in the door was an Ace Hardware key. And I didn't know this in the key world. You'll, Ace Hardware keys, the blanks can only be used at Ace Hardware stores. Okay, like didn't know that. There was an Ace Hardware store, very close to where Eric Npowski lived. So this was in 1994. So this man has brutally murdered, shot six times,

a bread of 92F was the gun that did it. And basically case comes in, everybody knows that nuts involved, but it got refused back in 94. Okay, so. And wait, one more question. You had told me, when we talked to the phone, we were sending this up that there was a pedestrian gate here, which no longer exists. So was that towards the end closer to the unit? So their house is, the murder house is right at the end of this street. And it's the second to the last house.

And there used to be a pedestrian access gate, which goes to the bike path, where people can go roller skate, whatever, right next to their house. Basically like 50 feet or whatever just right across the road. And they did they get rid of that because of this murder? You know they did some reconstruction. I don't know. I don't know. They might have as a security thing for the community. So it's that the configuration is a little bit different. We used to be stairs down off that bridge that came down. So there's an access configurations a little bit different. We used to be stairs down off that bridge that came down So there's an access route directly to the murder

But it got refused and the reviewing deputy thought more could you know be done and that was refused again and so 15 years went by And did the daughters always think that yeah,, so imagine this. So the daughters, their father's been murdered. Okay, and they just want their dad to be happy. So they're super nice to them and that, and they're super nice to them and that's kids. And they get into bank accounts, and their brother is disabled. So there's all this money that should be set aside for Kevin and his care. There's no money left.

Okay, imagine that. So they're dealing with the grief of their dad like this and look, in the arc of human existence, the worst thing that we can ever experience is we lose a love one. We will all deal with that if we live long enough. Worst than that is you lose a love one to murder. And then the worst thing, I think that we can experience in life as human beings is someone we loved is murdered and the person gets away with it. That is the worst thing. And these, the daughters, Kim and Jenny McLaughlin, were so patient and they were so sweet.

And they're way of reminding Newport PD that this, you know, they'd send them cookies every year on the anniversary. And they would, and to this day they get, they send me cookies every birthday, you know, they'd send them cookies every year on the anniversary and they would, they would, and to this day they get this sending cookies every birthday, you know, they, and that's one of the things about these things. If you do it right as a, as a prosecutor, you know, you don't, they don't pass anything, you know, but you get, it's like an addiction with the moms and with the family members. And your first five years in homicide, you spend it just trying to find your footing.

And you have dozens and dozens of jury trials under your belt at that point. But learning how to do murders is a little bit different. It's a real subspecialty. And then the next 10 years, you get into more difficult cases. It's almost like, hey, I don't want addiction. You need a little more. The cases need to be a little bit harder

to kind of get that same feeling like you've done something good. You know, it's a train monkey can win most murder cases, okay? Like, Because maybe most we saw the man shoot the man or like there's an eye on it. It's on video, it's 7-11 robbery.

The weapon gets dropped, there's DNA in it's all on tape. You can see the guys' face. Maybe not the majority of murder cases, but a healthy percentage. It doesn't require a whole lot of skill and dedication. Right. But there are those like this one, where it is a very complicated plot.

And when you get into conspiracies, you can remember those are the most fascinating ones, because they've planned to get away with it. They've got alibis that are set up, they've got stories to tell, they've locked down their plan, and the police always enter at a disadvantage because these clever, diabolical people have accounted for police interviews and have accounted for police attention, and they've got a plan. They do do false, you know, they sent false trails. And that's one of the things that is a part of all of these.

Like, same thing with the Hawksmord or something with the Wasnack Mordor, a coastamansar with a guy who cut off his neighbor's head and that whole thing, I'm not, not anyone able to. Well, we'll get to those. I want to get back to this for a couple. What we were talking about that is one thing I always know is because of course I'm huge in this.

And my sister is a criminal offense attorney. But is the leaving the voicemail for the person that you killed. That wasn't part of this case, but I noticed that so much. That is always like, hey babe, I'm coming home. I don't know where you are. We're in about how to meet you at Colin. Yes. Yes. And so if you work with the right guys, so this was in my, I really started getting into this after I've been there for seven or eight years. So I go to Newport with dust off some old cases

and it's like, which one of these can we put together? And I was working with the best detectives. And these are the same guys that I've done hawks with. And now I've been with them for probably eight or nine years at that point. And so they trust me, right? And I, I love these guys. And by guys, it includes a group of women that work there too. I mean, you, you bond when you're there at three o'clock in the morning with them, and I'm helping them

with the search warrants, you know, as we're all getting rained on. And then they're next to me when the jury comes in. And that's what it's supposed to work. You go to the murder scene, you meet your investigator and you meet your cops there and you're there with them. And then they stick with you as a team all the way through the end of the jury trial. And there's that element of trust.

So with these guys, they're gonna do what I need to get done to be able to present it and so with with these two daughters 15 years has gone by they know that they know that Eric and Poskey and and Annette were their dad They just and let's talk about what happened to them afterwards. So you did question Eric right at that or you're not you but they he was questioned at that time. And what was his story back in 94 and his connection with Nene and everything? Right, his story was I couldn't possibly have done it. I was working at the time.

Well, his shift started at nine o'clock. At the nightclub. Right across the channel. And he got that job two weeks before, right? And couldn't possibly have done it. And I made a phone call from T Testin and blah, blah, blah. So we timed that a million times. And in alibi is you're in Vegas.

I'm making the call with this calling card at the Denys at that time. So if you make the call, you couldn't have gotten here in time. That's the argument, no matter how you slice it or dice it, he could be here not only in time. That's the argument. No matter how you slice it or dice it, he could be here not only in time, but the timing is almost perfect. Bill McLaughlin shot at 9-11, exactly 9-11 PM. Because the sun, the handicap sun, heard it and

it was able to call. And Kevin wasn't supposed to be home. He's supposed to be at a meeting that was all a part of his deal with his dad and staying there. Kevin started smoking some weed out towards it. That didn't like it because he thought I was going to damage the recovery. And that 9-1-1 call is heart-wrenching because he's disabled and he's trying to express what he's looking at and his dad is at his feet and he's literally dying at his feet and he's saying, my dad has been shot. You can barely understand what he's looking at and his dad is at his feet and he's literally dying at his feet and he's saying, my dad has been shot and you can barely understand what he's saying. And I mean, that's another thing about these is that when you're talking about the respect of loved ones, it is so traumatic and it is so awful and it's motivated by money.

It's the second most been all reason why anybody could commit a murder. The first is sexual abuse, right? But money as the amount of human grief and suffering that goes into one of these things is unbelievable. So I got to call Jenny McLaughlin and Kim McLaughlin and let him know when we charged them. We worked on this thing for two years and one of the interesting things. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, so, NANAT, they had a beach house down the way. So, we know the killer has a key to the beach house, or to the main house here.

So, if she's innocent, it's one of those things. If she's innocent versus not innocent. And my old investigators, I got him Laramant Gummer, who is Josh McWhits, from Dayline calls him the evidence whisperer. Right, and he's a specialist in homicide. And it's really just a group of people sitting in a room spitball on different things. And a lot of times these cases, it just requires a new set of eyes. But this family's been to nitrouses for 15 years. And the net has moved on. She's married

another guy and forced him like rich guy after rich guy. Right. So I want to just say that because this is where I get fascinated, you know, is, I mean, I guess she was kind of okay looking back now. I don't think she was like that amazing, but put together. And so then after she, this happens with him, she does get in trouble for some of the stealing of the money, correct? The prosecutor for fraud, the numbers. She's out in six months. And then she comes back out and manages to get another,

I think, good-looking guy who also has money, she gets pregnant by him. Why did they get divorced? Do you know why they got divorced? So we got into some of the records on that. It was so acrimonious. You know, it was a horrific force. I don't know, interpersonally, what led to it, you know, from my perspective, didn't really

care, but she goes from him, who was a guy with a lot of money, has a baby with him, to another guy named, well, Billy McNeil, who's a good man who had no clue. He's a good looking guy, masters from business administration from USC. He's a guy on the rise and that's exactly the type. And she's living in. Lops that down with another baby. Yep, locks it down with another baby. And I felt bad for him because he's a, you know, we looked into him.

He's a good man. And he just had no clue. And that's how he issues. Did he have any clue when he got with her that she had any tie to this murder Oh idea no idea. Yeah, no idea because remember at this point it was a fraud conviction in the early early to mid 90s And she had a different name. She's going under a different name. Just once she met him She was using the name last name of her second husband So even if you've done like if you'd Google it to to death, minimal media, because it was, you know.

Back then. Right, back then. But so Larry comes to me and we're going through all the older poor's and there was a moment, now she's a dedicated mom. And it's one of those things, what would an innocent person do versus a guilty person? If she's innocent, she knows that the killer

had a key to the house. And she knows that because she pulled up that night, Newport escorted her in, she knows that the killer had a key to the house. She knows that because she pulled up that night. Newport escorted her in, she gathered some belongings so that she could go to stand in the beach house. And the beach house is a lot better. So they have a second house besides Bobo Co. Yes, second house right here in Newport. On the beach, I mean, I can't imagine what those guys got to be worth now.

But basically right at the jade, it's 54-3, Good Service Bar right on the front. So there's a report that was written back then from two of the guys that are one of them want to be Day of Buyington, who want to be the sergeant, who's my lead on the Hawks' murder. So he's an undercover narcotics officer, which means they look like they're killers,

and they are trained killers, they're trained police officers, they know how to shoot, they know all that, but they look like hell. Like I'll, you know, undercover narcotics cops, they grow their hair out, you know, they don't shower, they think, and these guys get into it. Right. So, here at our report, because they were surveilling her, we watched suspect, or subject

in that Johnston, decorating the Christmas tree, and we can see her two kids inside the VHS. Okay. decorating the Christmas tree and we can see her two kids inside the beach house. Okay, so from a two dimensional perspective, she's, it's the night before the funeral, the two kids are there, she's decorating Christmas tree. It means nothing. But when you inject the element of thought, right, when you think about what does that mean? And this is, this is why I work with geniuses. And this was the moment where I knew I was going to charge them. Okay.

work of geniuses. And this was the moment where I knew I was going to charge them. Okay. Um, an innocent person under those circumstances thinks a killer is on the loose might be after her. It could be that Bill got in the way of this, of this killer, right? She's a dedicated mom. So if the cops can see if the detectives on the sand can see her kids inside, that means that she didn't even draw the curtains. And they're're right. You'd be like, I need to go and witness protection. Head on a swivel, right? Yeah. And there's a safe place for those kids with their father, but she wants them there at the funeral and she wants them basically as props. And also you don't want to leave the beautiful beach house to be in like some inland apartment to be safe. Right, so we get into the checks.

That's right. We get into the checks, we see that she didn't chance the locks for 32 days. So as far as she knew, killer with key to one house, why wouldn't you have key to the other house? Why, you know, in the sketchy lifestyle that she was living, why wouldn't the killer be after her? And you put those things together, there was no way that that woman was innocent.

And when I'm explaining that to the jury and standing up there, you're standing in front of a bunch of strangers, and I'm going through that, and he starts seeing one nod, and then he starts seeing another nod. And that's that human thing, juries are experts on human behavior. You know, like forget about DNA,

forget about like the forensics of expended shell casings, which advanced a lot in that case. That's one of those real human things, like she was a dedicated mom, everybody agreed. Okay. So why is it she's there putting her kids in danger? Why is it, I mean, killer on the loose, if she's innocent, that killer is going to show up and potentially kill her and maybe even her kids. No way that happens where she doesn't at least draw the curtains.

And there are two guys in the sand who literally look like murderers and she doesn't see them, she's not looking for them. Same thing when they saw Napawski. When Napawski shut up on radar, Eric Napawski, they're surveilling the net who's in the beach house and they see this big giant dude like Santa with like a bag, a Christmas present still walking into the beach house. I like who the hell is this guy? And they follow him. That's how they became aware of him. Then we find out that they've been having an affair for a year,

that she's been stealing. And it's one of those things, it's like one of those eligible problems, right? A train leaves Albuquerque at one time. And Arizona and another, when do the two trains cross, which I always sucked out in high school? But she's cheating on them, and she's getting more and more open and notorious about it.

Like she's bringing them to her sons games in Newport Beach, and that the McLaughlin family have been here for 25 years at that point. Like she's getting increasingly risky about somebody seeing her with this other guy, and she's stealing increasing amounts of money, all leading up to the murder. And you put those little puzzle pieces together together and it becomes very, very compelling.

So when they interview Eric back in 94, what is his story? Does he admit to having an affair with her? So this is kind of great. I, this is the old tapes, right? And I'm, and I pop in the lead detective back then as a guy named Tom Both. He's like a big boy scout. He doesn't swear. He's like, I don't know if he's a religious guy. All he likes to do is fish for bass and then let him go. That's his whole thing. So he's this very experienced police officer, but nicest can be. And I pop this tape in and I hear somebody going hard on whoever they're talking to. Like, you expect me to believe that? That's freaking bullshit. Like blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, wow, I don't know if you both had it in them. And then I get this slight New York accent. And it's like, oh my God, that's the suspect. That's an apostasy yelling at the cops. And that's what he

would do. And he's so forceful in his representations. Like you expect any turn to every interview around. And basically what he said was, eric it. And they asked him like, hey, do you have anything? Do you have any firearms? He's like, no, I don't know many firearms. And then it, and then the, as the interview goes on, it's like, okay, well, yeah, I did have one. I was at Jennings 380, but I gave that to my friend, Joe David Homenas. And then later, you know, and oh, yeah, I did have a Beretta 92F, but that thing went to, to, to Joe. He was working a security job, blah, blah, blah. So they get to this other witness, and they interview him, and he's like,

yeah, he gave me a gun, but he didn't give me a Jennings 380. He gave me, I'm sorry, he didn't give me a beautiful bread and nine millimeter. He gave me this piece of crap Jennings. He didn't pay me for the job. So I sold it, and it had what's called federal hydro shock ammo in it.

And he's still, you got the gun back with the clip, and nobody shot it. It was the same ammunition that was used in the murder of Bill McLaughlin, which was like, it's not a, that by itself isn't enough, but it was certainly enough as, you know, one of the puzzle pieces. So it's the same exact ammo that was used in the murder

is loaded in this Jennings 380 that Eric lied about. So they go back and they're like, dude, you lied about, you lied about that gun. He's like, yeah, I did. I misled you so what? You know, so where is your bread and 92F? Because that's the gun that was using the murder. And he's like, well, I'm not. That's my statement. I don't know. I got stolen from my car. I don't know. That's my statement. So when you got a guy that's lying about a firearm and forensic science advanced too. So that was one of like 17 guns that could have shot the expended casings, you know, so that for automatic firearms, there's revolvers,

right, that keep the shell, and there's autos, which are far and away the most popular, that expends the casings. So we had six expended shell casings, and the forensic science of that had gone leaves and bounds in the 15 years. So now we knew that the gun that was used to shoot Bill McLaughlin was a Beretta 9-millimeter is a 92F and that was exactly the gun that Eric had that he couldn't account for. So like all those little pieces kind of. But does he, what does he say about his relationship with the net back in 94? Oh yeah. So the first, it starts with, yeah, she's a friend of mine. She's a friend of mine. She's a friend of mine

Let's say we're good friends. That's basically a quote and then by the end of the interview It's like okay. Well, yeah, she's my girlfriend. I don't know girlfriend. We're not really exclusive So it metamorphosis over the course of the interview and it like so he's clearly trying to hide the nature of their relationship So and I remember another part in the Special that you did was they were looking for million dollar homes together. Yes. Yeah, which is so you actually I found a realtor that like showed the houses and they acted like a cute rich couple that could actually purchase a house for a million dollars Yes, okay That's another thing just broadly in murder cases one of the things that's fascinating is that there are there are broad categories like

Chacon Babies is a toll. It's a toll thing, gang murders, it's a whole thing. People who plot to murder people for money, okay? It's almost as if they go to school and there's almost always a real estate agent involved. They can't wait to spend the money and like in a Hawks murder, which we're going to talk about, and in the McLaughlin murder, both of those couples are meeting with real estate agents before the death. Like people that have absolutely no cash. I have real estate agents, so don't have it hard enough.

As if they don't have it. And then we got to come in and testify in my murder case. Yeah. But that's one of the things. It's a pattern that you see over and over again, they cannot wait to spend the money. And the day of the funeral of Bill McLaughlin, they had a net, there were videotaping her.

She didn't know it, and it's weird, because over time Video goes green, you know, and so we've got these green images of the net getting hugged by at least family members who you know Are super nice people who believe you know, she had nothing to do with it and they're hugging her Everybody and that and that funeral was crying. There's not a single person that wasn't shedding tears Except for one and it was her and they went from she went from the funeral To a place called champion Yamaha that I just drove by on my way in here to buy trail bikes to go like dirt bikes to go riding with Eric Like it was and then and then it's off to San Francisco for New Year's He was murdered on December 15th and by New Year's Eve. She's in San Francisco with her paramour

You know with Eric with Eric. With Eric, yes. And they went, they go on this big spending spree right afterwards. And that's another thing that however clever they are and putting it together, they cannot wait to spend the money. So. That's my other tip for women who kill their husband. Hold off on that boob job. Hold off on that boob job for like at least, what do you suggest?

Six months? Don't, it's six months. You should not it's oh yeah, I'm in private practice now So I would say call me first so I can talk you out of it So you don't kill anybody and why not getting life without possibility of parole? Okay, so then So they they're doing all that but they're still not enough to at that time to arrest either one of them How soon do they like break up and go their separate ways? About a year. About a year.

Now, I don't think she had any real use for Eric beyond the role that he played in the murder. So she kept that thing going long enough for him to go his way without routing her out of life. Right. So he moves back to the East Coast. Basically, he's working as professional trainer, yet another kid.

He's like, he's living his life. She's living her life ripping off other men, getting married, doing her thing. And one of those two undercover narcotics officers, Dave Binton, wanted to get promoted, became a sergeant, and he became in charge of the Crime S against Persons Union at Newport PD. And this is an excellent police department down here. These guys are awesome. It's a very well-run department with a good chief, and Newport PD. And this is an excellent police department down here. These guys are awesome.

It's a very well-run department with a good chief and like Newport does it right. So now he's the guy that's overseeing the revamped investigation. So we planned this out for months. We had a team in Connecticut where Eric was. We're going to get an opportunity to do what's called the cold call, to call the net and try to get her on the phone and get her to admit the murder. You ask Eric to do that. We ask Eric to do that. Does he do that? No, he refused to do that.

And one of the things that I think you'll appreciate, you know, giving everything you do, there's a lot of like gallows humor that goes on behind the scenes on these things, you know, I mean as serious as the top gives, I think people have to do that just to stay sane. And one of those moments came in this tiny little interview room when they're interviewing Nuposky. You know, Eric is 6'5, 250, and a freak of an athlete. I mean, this is a incredibly powerful man.

And they're in this phone booth, I say, interview room and he's handcuffed. And Larry, you know, the evidence whisperer, my investigator, is a master at getting people to talk. And, but Eric Nuposky is in control pretty much with every interview he's done. And he's, that's just his personality. So he's under arrest, and I got a photo of him at the moment of arrest, and he's got this bewildered look on his face, which is, frankly, awesome, considering the pain he put that family through.

So there's Eric, and one of the guys at Newport, again again, Joe Cartwright, who's a fantastic detective. And so Eric is in there with Larry and Joe, and Larry's like, look, I know you did this. He's like, you know, say it again, say it again. And Eric is getting increasingly agitated. And he has no interest in helping us with the net. And they're like, we want you to call the net and do that. Fuck you, I'm not doing that.

Blah, blah, blah. And like, it goes on and on and and because you know I didn't do this you know I didn't do this and finally Larry realizes after about an hour or this and it's not going anywhere it looks Eric in the eye and he goes I know you did do it and we're going to prove it and Eric is like ready to he's just like and he he went up having some sort of like heart event he was so angry and Joe's like okay time out and Joe is hysterical he was so angry and Joe's like, okay, time out. Joe is hysterical, he brings Larry out and he's like, Larry, would you stop making him mad? Can't you see he's big enough to get out of those cuffs

and shove me up your ass? Anyway, probably not appropriate to say, but. No, no, I mean, so, because in the show that we saw the 2020, he says that he was, once he's telling his story, it's all over. Now he says in this interview, I met Nanette, she told me that this guy Bill

was her business partner, that she's the one who came up with the idea that separated the plasma from the bladder, whatever. And one night, he Bill makes a move on her. Which I was like, well, why would you say that? Because now that does give you motive to kill. But you know, and his friends are like, yeah, we thought she was this great like scientist that like, you know, we had no clue.

We thought they were this couple. And I mean, I think it becomes pretty clear that they were in on it. But then is there also the question with the timing that maybe he knew about it and was in on it, but he wasn't the exact person to shoot him? Well, okay, so there's questions, you question that every time.

You always have an open mind as you go through something like this. The problem is that there'll be no reason for him to get that job of all the gen joints in all of Orange County in LA. If you can be a bouncer, he gets one 136 yards away from the murder scene. And when we do the drive over and over again, in every possible route, every, you know, the anniversary of the boat parade, you know, the calendar anniversary of it, he is there with perfect timing. So basically what happened

was they left a game, soccer game from her son, and she drove into a reclated duplicated port, dropped them off, she doubles back to South Coast Plaza and buys some stuff. So when she comes rolling in, she's got an alibi on paper. And so Eric is the shooter. His gun was used. And so what was this call at Denny's on the calling card that he never that evidence was lost. But even if he had, because whatever Julie saw that I thought, did he have someone make that call for him?

Being that was a calling card thing as evidence. But but what is your problem? Yeah, here's the problem is that Everything that Eric said was Essentially a lie virtually everything everything that net said was why we're able to disprove Statement after statement after statement like the thing with the guns. He was completely full of it regarding the guns and so We got to start from the idea when you start looking at the phone call the only evidence that that existed of all the people that are involved the only evidence is from Eric Meposky. So he's the source of the whole story. There is no nobody else at the club said I talked to Eric, nobody else said I called him. It's a hundred percent from Eric. So he, Eric Nuposky, and also it's the third version of the story.

It's, yeah, the first one is, yeah, we left the game, we go to my apartment, I changed, she goes off to go shopping, and then I go straight to work because I was late for work. And then the second interview, this guy for Zell, who's one of the detectives, Eric goes, hey, I got an alibi, and he goes, you don't have an alibi, we check the time, you do not have an alibi, and he goes, well, oh yeah, I went, should I drop my off in my apartment and then yeah, I went to my friend, Eric Jomsky's house to see if he's there. And then, oh yeah, let's see, I got a page and then I wonder if it's a denny's in return of the page. And it's just like, it's off the cuff. It's not believable as he says it. And then he locked down on that.

So he, and think about it. Again, this is one of these common, common things. If you are a charged with murder or somebody suspects that you committed a murder and you didn't do it, and there's a phone record that puts you someplace that you think gives you an alibi, how many copies of that are you going to make? I mean, I would wallpaper my house with it. Like, you're going to tattoo it on the backs of your eyelids. That is the single most important document that exists in your world. If we get birth certificates, passports, you've got a phone record that puts you someplace else at the time of a murder that's people suspect that you did. There's no way he's losing that.

And he came up with 10 different stories about what happened to those phone records, too. Now 15 years later, the phone records didn't exist anymore from the company, but he knew back then that that he believed that was just get out of jail free-car. There's just no way that that thing's getting lost. And the attorney that he had at the time is gonna be Julian Bailey, who's now a judge, who I've known for 30 years, who is as meticulous and professional as you get.

And he said, yeah, I gave it to Julian Bailey, no way. No way Julian Bailey would lose it. No way Eric and Posky wouldn't make copies. No way Julian Bailey wouldn't make a million copies of it. That thing prevents somebody to go on, would prevent an innocent man from going to prison for life. No way. So then we take his story, we say, okay, let's say it's true. Let's do the drive. And we did it, I think seven times. Every single time he gets there in a planet time to commit the murder. I mean, from the football game or whatever, From the soccer game to his apartment, back to John Ski's house,

over to Dandys to make the call and back onto the freeway in time to commit the murder at every single time. And I mean, we drove it 20 different way, I mean, over and over and over again. I was driving my car. So you guys think so, he went there, she dropped him off, he did it, she went to South Coast Plaza,

he did it, got through the stairs or whatever the pedestrian gate, shook it off and then worked as a bouncer for the night. Yep, and it all fits because then there's a, he makes a phone call, she gets a mysterious phone call later, you know, she went to go pick them up, you know, and again, that's one of those things. There's details. She picked them up at the end of the night like 2 a.m. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, we didn't have to prove that.

And did she, when did she first hear that her live in lover was killed? Well she rolls up because that's part of the plant. So she comes in about 10 o'clock. So he's shot at 9 o'clock and about 10 o'clock. She's all the cops. She's all the cops. Oh my god, oh my god, what happened?

Yeah. And so, and here's another thing, just human nature wise. This is back where it's car phones before everybody had a cell phone. Yeah. So she sits there for 45 minutes in the car as the police, you know, police wait here. We've got questions for you. We want to find out. She's sitting there with the car phone right there, calls nobody. Calls no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like, like, that's crazy too. No way. You'd call someone like hysterically crying. You're not gonna believe this, please, or they're like, there's 20 people she has to notify.

Right, and then, and then when Jenny McLaughlin comes up the next day, you know, Kevin is in the house, he's totally distraught. I mean, imagine that. Yeah. Kevin needs care. And she drives Kevin to the beach house. Jenny comes up, so this is one of the daughters that she's known for four years at this point, right? She's going to be family. And Jenny's

a really nice person. She goes up to pick up her brother to try to make sense of which is how her dad and Kevin is outside. The guy has a hard time walking because of his brain injury. He's waiting outside for her to pick him up. And Jenny says she sees the net like looking to the window and then closes the window and stays inside the house. And why does the net get to go to the beach house and not their family? Right. Well, yes, right. I mean, there's so many little things that are wrong with it.

And when you put it all together, there's no friggin' why. So we get this, we get new set of highs and I get to call, you get to call Jenny and Kim. So they've been waiting 15 years and I call, I call Janie, we work with them, concerning a bunch of stuff, you know, like finances and getting all that stuff together. And you know, I call her and it's one of those moments as a prosecutor that, you know, you kind of live foreign away. It's like, just want to let you know, you know, we file charges and there's this pause

and she, she chokes up and she says against who. I mean, this still gets, gets me goosebumps today. Yeah. Against to against the net and Eric. And there's another pause and she said, for what? We get set for the murder of your dad. And she just cried and cried and cried. And that's, there's that human element. Right. And it becomes a dicking as across here. Right. If you're doing it right,

you're, your dedication is to these moms and these family members, when you're in that position where you can actually bring them something. I mean, I still miss it. Being able to sit down with that family and work them so that they know that in this horrific thing, there's actually somebody that cares. There's actually somebody that's going to be there in the middle of the night working with their cops, working, putting it together, doing what it takes to to bring justice to their family's cornice. That sounds and it is like it becomes the driving force. I think for every

good prosecutor out there, it becomes almost like an addiction in and of itself, getting to help people in these really dark moments. So then do you do one whole trial first for Eric and then another whole trial for Nanette? Yes, so I would always I never like to do cotaphena trials I'd rather do the extra work and have one jury assessed the behavior of one defendant because if they don't they tend to kind of a portion blame you know and The I I would rather do more work and separate everybody else out and do multiple trials on the suitcase. So, once he gets arrested and his trial starts and she's like, I had no idea, did Eric do it, baby, but I didn't, you know, and how is her team and her attorneys and her watching his trial and

realizing once he's convicted, she's way worse off. Right, so this is one of the unique things about this case is they both had such good legal teams. Eric got a bunch of guys from New York who are fantastic. And a local guy named Gary Poulson, who's also now a judge, I mean, it's like these are good lawyers. And I know that any mistake I make, they're gonna exploit. And these are, you're hard is in your throat for these.

And when you go on a court on these things, and you're miked up, and there's cameras in there, and the family's in there depending on you. So they both had really good attorneys, you say? These had, they had legal teams of phenomenal. The other's the guy named, Nenead had a guy named Mick Hill, who is, with the public defender's office still, and the guy's fantastic, he's got this Irish accent.

So now she couldn't afford private attorney, she had to go for a public defender or... She went over to the public defender. Okay, because the husband number four, or whatever husband three was like, see ya. I think when he realized, he came and he watched the perimeter hearing when we laid out all the evidence,

and I think he realized at that point that... Well, I got some insight scoop too, that he also found out that she was, ripping them off. And it's, no, not ripping off, but she was like cheating and stuff too. Oh, I didn't heard that. I'm so surprised.

I mean, it doesn't surprise me a bit, but she had, she had like $180,000 in credit card bills and he didn't know about it. Oh. So there's like, what he thought, personally thought he had married to, he very quickly learned was a complete fraud. And at that point when she's going through this, do all the dads then regain custody of

the kids, or is she still being cute, mom, a four living in bed? Oh, once she's been arrested? Yeah, well, here's the beauty of that. So 15 years before she's decorating that Christmas tree, and there's a young narcotics officer in the sand. Fast forward 15 years, he's now the sergeant in charge of this whole thing, working with me. So we had one team in Connecticut arresting Eric. Right. And then we had one team in front of her house. And we did that so that it's early in the morning. And he

knocks on the door and she comes to the door and she actually tried to close it on them. And he put his foot in the door like that classic seed. And she's like, what he goes, hi, to net you remember me? She goes, no, he goes, well, I remember you. Couldn't arrest you back then, but now I get to, now I get to arrest you. She goes, for what? He goes for murder. She goes, which murder? I don't know how many murders are committed. This is for the murder of Gohman Gloufflin and how she went. It's just this awesome full circle. And you have to leave like that day, or can you like brush your teeth and get a couple things together? No, and the thing is also, you're talking about an incredibly vain woman.

I mean, everybody's got vanity, right? Right. But this is one who's used her looks to kill a guy and manipulate a bunch of others. So it was early in the morning, and they wanted to see it early in the morning. And so her booking photo would reflect early in the morning and they wanted to see it early in the morning. And so her booking photo would reflect early in the morning. No, she doesn't get a pressure teeth or anything together. She's in handcuffs at the doorway. She got charged with special circumstance homicide.

She wasn't out awaiting trial. She was in custody. She's not entitled to bail. So that was her last free moment. And hopefully that'll be the last free moment that woman ever has. So she's behind bars for how long like a year while you do the other trial? Probably, and look, it's, she gets her trial as fast as she wants.

But, yeah, she waived time, we did Eric first, and then we did her second. And like, in a nutshell, what was her defense? Eric did it. In a nutshell. Eric did it, he was a jealous boyfriend, he's one-tidd, I had nothing to do with it. Eric's defense was, and that did it, I had nothing to do with it. Eric's defense was, the net did it,

I had nothing to do with it. So they do this, and that's common, we expected that. And yeah, which is... And if someone came forward today, or someone gets caught in catching that person, they're like, I am the person that, the net hired to kill him. And I was just like, murder're like, I am the person that, Nanette hired to kill him. And I was just like, murder for hire, dude, and whatever.

Would that affect either one of their sentences? Like, wouldn't that, what would happen then? So after Eric was convicted, we got, like, remember, get smart, you know what I mean? Would you believe? Remember the, yeah, most people have no idea what I'm talking about. But anyway, yeah, try it. Yeah, okay, you're younger than me.

It's a little show. I don't know how much I can read anyway, go on. Yeah, Maxwell is smarter than common, and he's always like, whenever you get caught, he can go, well, would you believe? So we got a would you believe moment from Eric, where he wanted to interview again. So he's been convicted, it's before-sensing it. It's like, okay, okay, okay. Forget everything I said before, this is what really happened.

I knew to know it was plotting the murder of Belmaglofflin, and I hooked her up with a shooter. I hooked her up with a hitman, and yeah, I knew the shoot, they were gonna murder him, and yeah, they used my gun, but I had nothing to do it. Okay. But I wasn't the shooter. But I wasn't the shooter, okay, being the shooter, I believe ads,

well, back then in 1994, I think it adds, it's a one-year enhancement. Okay, he copped out, he confessed, according to his latest story, of being an active participant and a conspiracy to commit murder for financial gain. So that's life without possibility of going on prison. His best, last, most awesome BS story that he can come up with gets him the exact same

sense. He already got the same with the net. So if a shooter were to come forward, and this was the two of them, there is no, there is no hitman. But if, if there was, if we were wrong, we missed out on everything, and we didn't, and somebody actually came forward and said that, it's the same exact sense for each one of them It perhaps makes it arguably even more diabolical because it was more sophisticated than we thought and They both would absolutely Under California law get the same sentence that they already which is both of them have life life without possibility of parole because this is murder for financial

Again life in California means something very different than life these days. Life Without Possibility Parole means they're not entitled to a parole hearing, or at least it's 33 years until they are. And, in turn, you ever like know what they're doing, like it's the net, like teaching a yoga class, what you doing.

She's teaching dogs, she's in this doctorate program, but part of the job is we go into parole hearings as homicide prosecutors, and so we go to prisons around the state and oppose lifers on our old murders that are about to get released. And when you go up for a female, you get female deputies, and that's a much smaller world, like the amount of women that are imprisoned for murder

is obviously a fraction of men. So that's the tends to be one prison that they get sent to. And the guards would update me on her love life and who she was dating in jail. So she, yeah, like, I mean, I've watched love after lockup. And I can see why men and women both fall for so many because it's like, you know, finally, somebody, you know, is there when I call, you know, whatever, I know he's gonna call him your Sunday at five. Right. And they get sucked into, you know, daily love letters and all that.

And then the person in prison, that's the only thing they have going. And they eat that person to send them money so they can, you know, buy the better food and all that. Right. Right. Crazy. Yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy.

All right. One more before we go. So I tell, I was, I was up on the hawks murder. So just describe that and then it's so crazy what happens to the murder at the end. I was like dying over that part. Yeah, so that's, it's a couple that had a yacht here in Newport Beach

and they were trying to sell it, they were living on it. And they were trying to sell it to move back to Arizona so that Jackie Hawks could basically raise a child. She was in a motorcycle accident when she was younger and couldn't have kids around. So she really wanted to do this and so help raise her grandchildren just graduated from high school. I just got a message from the family. Okay, you wanted to say. But at the time he was a baby. He was a baby.

So she wants to sell the boat. So she can help raise this grandchildren, and they're into it. And Tom Hawks, he loved his boat, but was willing to do that, because he loved his wife. Okay, so if he sells a house, that's what, like, 5% commission, I think, for the agent. He sells a boat, that's what like 5% commission, I think for the agent, he sells a boat,

it's 50 and going right. So he decided to try to sell it himself. And so they put this ad in Yachting World magazine and they disappear. And they're supposed to be moving, they've got family that love them, and they fall off the face of the earth. And Tom Hock's brother was the chief of police

of Carl's bad police department. He's a trained detective. He comes up looking for his brother, puts a business card on the boat and gets contacted by a woman named Jennifer Dalyan who she said, yeah, my husband and I were purchasing the boat. Your brother, you know, we paid them for it. They're supposed to teach us how to use it. No idea what happened to them. Police have them contact us when you get a hold of them. Okay, and it is a good lie. And then they interview Skyler for Husband

and of all my years, my 26 years of being a DA, he is the best liar I've ever seen. And he's like, hey, look, we bought the boat. We have this transaction. I paid in cash, which is the way he I've ever seen. And he's like, hey, look, we bought the boat, we have this transaction, I paid in cash, which is the way he wanted to do it. They had a bunch of witnesses. He's like, you can call my buddy Alonzo, who's with us.

Yeah, so basically they bring Skylar in, and he's, I'm monitoring this. Okay, so right now we've got a missing couple, and I'm watching this interview, and it's embarrassing now, wearing this. So right now we've got a missing couple and I'm watching this interview and it's embarrassing now but he had me. He was so good the way he sold his lives. He's like, look, we bought the boat and I'll tell you right now, I paid way more for the boat than what we actually recorded. He's like, please don't go to the IRS. And the way he sold it was so believable.

And these guys, these cops to their credit, I'm the DA, I'm supposed to be the smart one. And they're like, no, it's off, it's off. Just like gut, gum shoe, police work. And like, really, we're gonna, and they were right. And basically, so this couple goes missing. Their family's like, this is totally unlike them.

It's right before Thanksgiving. And they interviewed this young couple. And they show up with documents saying that the hawks bought the boat. And they had, you mean sold them the boat. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, right. That the hawks, that they bought the boat from the hawks.

So we send the forms into the FBI for forensic analysis. Their fingerprints are all over the documents. Their DNA is on the documents. It's their actual signatures except one of the FBI agents said, there's something off about Jackie Hawke's signature. It looks like somebody went in later and filled in the S. Okay. So that's one of the pieces to the puzzle. And I had been, this is kind of embarrassing.

I had a talk about like staggering in relationships. I had a relationship with a woman where I was we're together for five years. And I basically, we broke up and I kind of thought we'd get back together and then, show I'm getting engaged to somebody else. So I'm like dealing with that shock and I stumble into my own really bad relationship.

And fast forward, like, I don't know, about a year, maybe a little bit less. I'm in a wedding in Napa, and basically, I think it's the only time I've ever cheated on. I catch her making out with some of a college boyfriend at a wedding of her friends. Your girlfriend, girl, friend at the time. My current girlfriend at the time.

Wait, you like go around the corner and they're making out? I literally go around the corner and they're making out. Yes How far into the the has is this the receptionist is the end of the night is still hot This is the wedding wedding reception at about two o'clock in the morning and this has been it It's just this downward spiral the whole relationship sucked and like I want to go to too many details This is like I'm embarrassed to say this, but so I have a relationship that collapses in front of me. What did you do?

So you turn around the corner, you're having, you still have your glass and your boy red white. And she's making up against a wall. And what do you say? I walk up and I think, I think actually, you know, and I'm trained to use English language, right? Like that's what I,'s my make my living. I think it was um, I think that's all I could get out of my mouth like um, and and the guys like he looks at me and she looks at me and he's like, I'm sorry I didn't know and he scurries off and

It was a it was a horribly unhealthy relationship. It was really bad for me and it was so that I'm finally getting out of it This is like the point where you guys are. Do you go back to your hotel room together? Well, I leave, she follows me and I'm the drunk and drama starts, right? Like, oh, but I love you, blah, blah, blah. All that sort of thing. I'm like, can't even deal with this.

I'm walking. So I take a walk, it's two o'clock in the morning. We're in Napa, little hotel in the middle of nowhere. I go walking past the bar now. This guy was one of the groomsmen. And I'm walking out, I can't believe I'm telling the story, I'm walking out and somebody laughs. I couldn't hear what he said, he pops off,

and I couldn't hear the words, and I'm stonkled sober, but I'm also Irish. I'm like, I hear it, and it's like, and this guy's been flirting with her all night. He's flirting with her niece to hook up in college. It's 99% on her, but still he's not respecting the fact that I'm like her boyfriend. Like this wasn't like a date.

I've been with her for like eight or nine months. And it was the worst relationship I've ever been in, far and away. And I staggered into it because I got my heart broken, deservedly so. I deserved that. But anyway, so there I am. And he pops off and I turn around and I'm like, I do the, you know, I should have just kept walking. I do the. But anyway, so there I am. He pops off and I turn around.

I'm like, I do the, you know, I should just kept walking. I do the, what did you say? Thing, right? And then he comes at me and I don't throw any punches, but it's just big. It's like a kerfuffle, okay? Well, security for the hotel comes over. And who knew, like, tiny little hotel has security. And I'm like, I'm like, dude, I cannot get hooked. And I didn't fight. I was making out with my girlfriend. Then he popped off, like I'm trying to explain myself. And I almost got arrested for fighting in the hotel. And I finally say, look, I can't get hooked up.

And he looks at me and he's like, why not? I tell him, I shouldn't be saying any of this. I guess I can't get fired from the DA's office anymore. But I'm like, look, I'm a deputy DA. I've got one year in the homicide unit. If I get arrested, my career's done. I didn't get fired from the DA's office anymore, but I'm like, look, I'm a deputy DA. I've got one year in the homicide unit. If I get arrested, my career's done. I didn't do anything wrong.

I'm like, I will go back to my room. I'll check out right now, whatever it takes. And he gives you a DA, he goes on off duty police officer. I work security here. I'm on the light. The cops are on their way. It's like take a walk. So this guy does me a huge solid.

I'm not on the 18th green at this golf course next to the hotel. With my best friend from law school, this guy's Stefan Kahn, who's one of the smartest guys I know, going, dude, and then she goes, make it out. And he's been, he didn't like her from the get-go, and he's like, I told you she was bad news. I'm like, maybe I should just go explain you to the cops and he's like, listen to me, dumb ass.

Just walk away. You listen to me like you've never listened to me before. You're not talking to the police. You will hitch hike home first. Leave your bag. If you got your wallet yourself on, it's all you need. You're not going back into the hotel and lessen until the police leave. You don't talk to security guard.

You're only getting your bag and then you're out. She's passed out. So basically, I want to get away from the whole thing. I'm like, there's so much psychological stuff here that we could get into, but I basically blown, I haven't processed this relationship, because I got right into this really bad one that took all my time.

I'm fine here. Yeah. So now I'm dealing with all of that. And like, no matter how bad the relationship is, that's still a really shocking thing to walk into. And I'm like, my self-esteem is at a low, professionally, I'm on a rocket going up. But personally, I've dated the worst woman I've ever dated. And so I hop on a surf trip with a bunch of buddies. There's a bunch of my friends

going to Indonesia for three days. And I went up on this boat with this guy named Gary Burns, who I loved to death to this day. And he was a boat guy and very, very early on, probably early 20s. He moved on to a sailboat, and that's what he did. And he's a good guy, like a law abiding guy. But he was cruising around with people that were, he knew criminals and drug dealers and all that because of the boating world. And so I spent a couple of weeks on a boat with him. And you know, you surf all day

and then you talk at night. And he's telling stories and all that. So fast forwarded out of the Hawksmurder. We have no idea what happened to these people. I suspect that Scala, Dylan and his wife have done it, but we've got four months go by. Everybody's telling the same story. We cannot break this case.

And these are really nice people who have disappeared off the face of the earth. And but forensically on the boat, there's no son of violence. There's no blood. There's no DNA. It was almost too clean. We did a bunch of forensic workups. There's no fingerprints belonging to them. There's no DNA belong to them, which is weird for both that they lived on for two years. And so we're desperate. And these are my new pork guys, and I reach out to Gary Burns. And I was like, if anybody knows what we should be looking for on a boat where a murder happened, maybe it's Gary, and it's kind of scary how quickly he had the answer. He's like, he goes,

hey, man, if you guys suspect there's a murder that happened on a boat, and they're selling it, they'll be an inventory, anchors are a big deal, look for a missing anchor, and sure enough, it's been staring us in the face the entire time. There was a there was a missing anchor on the boat and at that moment I knew I was going to be able to charge him and I knew as if I was going to be able to convict Scott daily on. So we wound up I charged him for the fraud that he admitted to as we still try to accumulate the evidence on the case and then it wound up like we wound up flipping the notary, there was a notary public that signed the stuff, and we did a search warrant on a go between. So there's a notary that stamped all the documents indicating the sale of a boat, and she had a

friend that knew Skylar Dayly on. And one of the things the notary always described this transaction as Jackie Hawks having brown curly hair. And when she moved on the boat, she cut her hair really short and died at blunt. So easier to maintain on a boat, right? So when we do the search warrant out of Morrig's house that's the go-between, we find a crumpled up driver's license photo of Jackie Hawks with brown Curly Hair. So she'd never

seen Jackie Hawks. She based her description on the driver's license photo and it was like, and with that information we were able to go back to her and her lawyer. So the notary, notary something without the human being there. She was in on it, but she didn't know it was a murder. It was out to the fact. They said we want you to back date these documents and be more in the pater like $5,000 in cash or whatever. Okay. So and she had she had held her story for four months. We interview five or six times. Everybody stuck with the same story. There was her. There was a Lonzo Machin who was one of the conspirators on the thing. They kept telling us the same story. We had no bodies. We had no evidence on the boat.

So we were dead ended until Gary gave me the tip about the anchor. So it's kind of weird how personal life goes into surf trip, which winds up coming back on this really big case. And at once we've had the missing anchor, that was huge for us. And then we arrest Scholar for the fraud for the admitted money laundering with this

whole other crazy story you told. And then they're a little house card started falling apart. And what happened was, they put together this plot to murder these people, to steal their boat, and to get into their bank accounts. And they had like these things notarized, and then you come back to the S. And the way you present that to the jury is What they did is they took them out to see and they overpowered them they taser Jackie Hawks and they and they taser Tom Hawks And there was this guy John Kennedy who is a founding member of the Long Beach and St. Crips this huge

Big violent guy and Skylar they physically subdue. One of the other ones subdues Jackie, and they handcuffed them together, and they forced them to sign all these things as they take them out to sea. And what happened was they taught them to an anchor and they threw them overboard. That is so horrific. Right. It's like that old thing around.

They showed that in the TV show that you sent me to. Like the way they described it. I was like, I cannot imagine something more horrific that you're going down alive. Right, well, it's like that camp story that we'd all tell those kids, right? Like, what would be worse? You know, who would win it?

Grizzly Barabas would grab what Sharkin, three people are. What's the worst way to die to freeze a death or to burn up? Like, we've all had that conversation at one point and that is the most awful way I can imagine people dying. And they're tied to an anchor begging for their lives. And they're thrown over board with no provision for their physical suffering at all.

They were just at that point, there was something that needed me disposed of. And then the other thing is he took them on the boat and felt comfortable with these three guys because the skiler brought his cute wife, his cute pregnant wife and baby there. And so they appeared like this adorable new port couple. And imagine from Jackie Hawks perspective, she's all about babies at this point. They're selling their boats. So when you've got a couple with a baby, it's going to let, we're going to let our guard down,

but it also shows how utterly divulgated, utterly divulgable this was. So Jackie Hawks, though. So there's like, there's two acts of defiance on the boat. One is Tom Hawks fights. When they're tied up, he kicks, Skyler, he's blindfolded, he's duct taped, but his feet are free,

kicks, skylers are almost overboard. But there's a chair there, and it breaks his fall, and then Kennedy comes over and punches Tom Hawks and hopefully knocks him out. But he's out of the fight. The other act of defiance was when Jackie Hawks was being forced to sign these things, and she wrote Jackie Hawks. Okay, not Jackie Hawks, there's an S. Jackie Hawke. Now, they caught it and they added the S, but they didn't know what her S's look like. Okay. So, when you think about that, the way you present that to a jury is that's an act of defiance. That's basically like shooting a flare off into the future. This is a woman who knows she's about to die of horrible death and she wants it to be made right. You know, so, so ladies and gentlemen, the jury, who is that woman talking to?

She talked like the police can gather evidence, you know, but we, they can't make it right. I can present it, but I can't make it right. You know, the only people who can make this right are you. Right. That woman was talking to you. That woman was making sure that somebody in the future was going to hold them accountable for what they did and the people that she was reaching out to. That's you.

And that's, you know, because it's true. And that's one of those things, like being able to jury to understand the enormity. And it's not tough if you get good people of some of these murders to kill people for money. They will always do the right thing in my experience. And so he gets convicted, Skylar, but also his wife does. Right. So one of the things that happened behind the scenes on that is, as we're trying

to put this thing together, and we can't, we have no break, we go to her and she has a fantastic lawyer, again, a Mike Malfetta, who's as talented as anybody as I've ever known. He's an orange county where we used to be, we were colleagues in the DA's office a million years ago. And he's a very good man and just phenomenally talented. And I told Mike, it's like, look, we want a roller. Let's flip her. I know she knows what happened.

But we thought at the time, she's the wife and she's someone in the periphery. And that's something that you commonly see. And this is also when I'm Pretty early in my homicide career before I encountered enough evil spouses that are actually up to the rivals in it like the net but But it's like look I'll give her transactional immunity if she just tells us what happened Transactional immunity is a immunity immunity you but you know confess to anything you have immunity and

is a meager to meager to you. You know, confess to anything, you have a meager to you. And she turned it down because young love prevailed. And she was visiting him in the jail. And it was, she had a chance never to do a single day in jail. And she turned it down, basically said, screw you, no, no bodies in the world. And as we're, she went and visited him. And we, we were recording all the conversations. And one of the things they would whisper a lot and that was one of the quotes You know, it was barely perceptible. We had to enhance Skylar said remember no bodies no murder to her and so on we made that offer Will and beholds. That's what she went with no bodies no murder and thank God because

As we got into it, and we eventually rolled the lawns out, we realized that she was up to her eyeballs in it from the word go. So the other guy, a lawns out, told everything. Yeah, he laid everything out. So he came and turned himself in, and he fled to Mexico,

where he was, I think originally born, so he's a citizen down there, and he came up, turned himself in, and he got 20 years for it, but we had him testify against him. He explained the whole plot, he explained how he met Skylar, like everything, and he told us about this event where Skylar comes on the boat with Alonso and Tom Hock's,

and he said, Tom Hock's was super suspicious. And basically, he hears Skylar call Jennifer and say, you need to come back, I'm gonna come up and get you, you need to come back down here, and you need to bring Haley, and basically, he hears Scholar call Jennifer and say, you need to come back, I'm gonna come up and get you, you need to come back down here and you need to bring Haley, their daughter, to put these people at ease. And then when we look at the phone records, right when a lot of us said that phone call was made, sure enough, phone call from Scholar to Jennifer,

and then they talk all the way up, the four or five freeway, and then they stop talking, and then her phone pings again in Newport Beach, which is all the corroboration, you know, because they're not communicating because they're together. And then her phone is in Newport Beach, which is exactly what Alonso said. So we get these corroborating bits of information. And then how much time to cheek it? Life without possibility of parole. And the Alonso I saw that he was up for, I guess for all September 2021. Do you know if he?

I you know, I didn't I don't know what the date was that he was up for on that But he'll he'll get out because it was a determined sentence. So we get him 20 for that and And in retrospect, you know, we we did not know about John Kennedy until we flipped to Volanzo. So, Volanzo basically took... Right. He did the right thing at the end. He was basically a dupe for Scholar. He was a... And he knew what was going on, and he deserved this 20 years, but what he gave us, he gave us a whole third conspirator, and he gave us the details what would happen on the boat. And imagine this. One of the things he told us is he was in charge

of monitoring them as they were going out to sea. So it's dark, it's November, it's cold, and they're on the bed that they've spent the last two years of their life together on. It's the state room, they're on the bed, and they're handcuffed and duct taped back to back. And Jackie Hawks is crying because she's going to her death. And Tom Hawks back to back is stroking her hand, saying,

it's OK, we're going to be together. We're going to be together. I mean, just so pointed, a human moment. And the family wouldn't know those details. As brutal as that is to hear, if we hadn't flipped the law zone, if he hadn't cooperated. And the guy was too stupid to lie. And now the craziest end of the story,

so Skylar is then declared as I'm a woman. Declare is I'm a woman, right? I'm pretty sure we as taxpayers in the city of California, and I'm very moderate, but I'm pretty sure we are paying for his transition. It's like, look, nobody's more pro at P.O.M. happiness than me, especially if it's seen some of the tough destruction for as long as I did, whatever it takes people to be happy I'm in. Okay but when somebody commits three murders and it wasn't just Tom and Jackie Hawks because

the investigation we found he'd also murdered a guy named John Peter Jarvey down in Mexico and we prosecute him for that as well, which is it's on a crazy story. You commit three murders and you're in prison, spending money to make that person happy. I don't know. I'm not for that. Sorry. I'm sorry. That's something I think we need a broader public discussion on. And I mean, is that mean that maybe you don't know the answer? So, is Skyler now going to be on death row in a woman's prison? Great question, but here's another thing. Here's my problem.

And does Skyler get a boob job? Right. The thing about the personal is get boob jobs. Every single thing that guy does is an manipulation. So it's not real. It's not like, he'll go through the process because he'll get all that special attention. He'll find allies in different communities and who I support completely. I think we all do, right? Like, you know, I've worked with transgender people before and I've

freaking loved them. Like, I know it's not about that. It's just, I get another like, really. And then also, how do you feel like the woman that is not that she's an awful person too? But like, what? Like now you're telling me that this whole time you were a woman and I mean, there's no doubt that the guy is a girl. Obviously did some, had probably had a fucked up childhood to be such a fucked up person.

But this is just like the top. You're like, you're like really okay. And that's another interesting thing where we're talking about like broad categories of murders One of the myths that's out there like I've done a bunch of serial killer cases Which I'd love to come back and talk to you. I'll do it We have this myth post-science of the lamps. I think we think about Buffalo Bill Like there's this cultural thing where a serial killer must have been horribly abused right in my experience

They're spoiled. They're spoiled. And Skylar claim we've had a really jacked up childhood. And one of the things that did in the penalty phase is actually put his mom on. Talk about how we ran a party, we ran into drugs, and there's time a little Skylar fell in a swimming pool. And you know, and you turn blue and how terrifying that was. And as a general rule, you never, you always be nice to the moms when they testify,

as a general rule. Okay, but here she is, you know, talking about how in a factor in mitigation with Skyler falling in a pool and almost drowning, when he was a little boy. And it's like, okay, was that scary for him? I mean, I decided to cross her. Is that scary?

Is that the drowning? Yeah. Was that awful? Did he seem scared? Like, you're not even seeing the like, like, ever possible. Was he tied to an anchor? You know, like, yeah. And it's like, how dare they?

You know, like, really, that's what he, he, he, there's a, a near drowning as a kid. So he would know how bad it is then. Like, don't, don't, don't, look, it makes it worse. Yeah. It makes it worse. It makes it a thousand times worse. And look, that, that's one of those things, that guy's life, it was it a thousand times worse. And look, that's one of those things.

That guy's life, it was not a part product of abuse. It's a product of him being a psychopathic, like maniacal human. Somebody could look somebody the eye knowing that they're going to time to an anchor and throw a lover. Not kill him first, not at least put him out of the misery, drown them. And the thing is, how do you cry and hold your breath at the same time? I'm a picture of that in freezing cold water, and that's how Jackie Hawks met her end. Screw that guy.

I mean, just on an emotional level, are you freaking kidding me? And here's something that everybody should know. There's this thing floating around out there that, oh, Skyler did this to get the money so you can have his surgery. That's complete bullshit. Skyler had $50,000 in cash, the Dejie Murdered John Jarvey. The transgender surgery is shockingly inexpensive. There's a surgeon in Colorado, and I think it was back in those days, I think it was like $36,000 out of the surgery. Okay, which is kind of, I would think it would be more, but he had 50 grand in cash,

and they bought a car with it. He bought about $800 sex toy, a piss and driven, like Dildo thing, the same day. Yeah, yeah, same day. Which by the way, funny stories of, you know, like Gallus humor, in the heart of every detective there's a 17-year-old boy or a girl right like and there's one of the detectives all these name out but they when we did the search warrant on

Skylar's house they live with her parents who are very religious kind of Uber like churchgoers or some torts like kind of Bible Thumper types right and and of course there's 10 police cars out in front of the house and every neighbor that they have is outside watching this. And when they find this thing, it is a piston driven dildo. Okay, and so one of the detectives throws on latex gloves and carries that thing out by the business and flopping around with all the neighbors

and Jennifer's mother came running out of the house going, that's not mine. That's not mine. Don't know what you're talking about, man. Loaded into the evidence, man. You know, we definitely need to get together more. But the other thing I'm going to say is just, you know, Jennifer's a piece of shit too, but I mean, the amount of women that are probably doing hard time because they fell in love with the wrong man. Right.

Is something that needs to be explored a lot more because it's like really, you know, I mean, come on. Well, she was like the phone records in that. When he, when Skyler printed out the documents for the votes, and you compare the computer records with the phone records First thing you did was call her and then and then he goes back on and modifies the documents more online And then gets down to Newport Beach today the murder calls Jennifer They head out to see calls Jennifer. They get out right when the boat does the U-turn rather they threw them over board calls Jennifer So she is a part of that she's she's on the boat in every way that physically. And she is she every single step of the way. And she was the critical element. Tom Hawks did not trust them

until she brought that baby on the boat. And it's like there are lots of women certainly that were that got brought into things because they were with their man who did it, right? There's tons of them, but there are also, and I made this mistake. When I offered her transaction immediately, believing that she was on the periphery, when it turns out, ups who were frigging eyeballs and all that, including the murder of John Jarvey. And that was a couple made for each other. And everybody suffered as a result. Wow

Well, Matt. I know I'm no Keith Morrison or Josh make-wits, but I am thrilled that you came here so juicy Love to loyal cubs and all those good boys over there as my boy screams upstairs that video games Thank you so much. Tell everybody about your show that's out now and where they can follow you and everything else. Yeah, thank you. So I just kind of got an active with Instagram. So it's Matt Murphy's Law on Instagram. And there's a new show out called FiddleFlaw on ABC. I signed a deal with ABC and they're fantastic the way they treat me. So they brought me on on the series, which is kind of, let me plug it real quick, there's an old technique before photographs

in the early 1800s where they would actually build doll houses so the juries could see a reenactment of the crime scene. And I never knew this before. And so there was a female detective in New York in the 1800s, probably where they ever own story, who would construct these things based on detective in New York in the 1800s, probably where they were on story, who would construct these things based on murders in New York. So what, Ghanik David Slown, who's the head of Hulu, who is, I love the man, he came up

with this idea, let's reconstruct some of these old murder scenes, so they have these doll houses. And the amount of detail that went into it, a couple of these were my cases and I couldn't believe how spot on it was. So they've reconstructed these things and it's called fatal flaw and they basically analyzed these cases and say what was the big mistake that the killer made. And it's on who we right now. They're about to drop this week. I think we'll drop the fourth or fifth episode. And it's worth a watch. It's only an hour. No, we'll watch it for sure when you use your

pros of watching. Good stuff. Yeah. Thank you so much. This is great. for watch, it's only an hour. No, we'll watch it for sure when you do this here for the watch. Good stuff. Thank you so much. This is great. No, I loved it.

Thank you for having me.