Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald - My Gay Husband and The New Bachelorette Controversy

Episode Date: September 11, 2025

The new Bachelorette is announced! Will Taylor Frankie Paul from Secret Lives of Mormon Wives find real love? Then what would you do if you found gay porn on your husband’s computer? Jessica Frew did and she shares her incredible story with me. This is one of heartbreak, love, humor and co parenting. So juicy! Enjoy! Subscribe to my new show Juicy Crimes!: ⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/juicycrimes⁠⁠⁠ -For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners ten dollars off your first month’s subscription and free shipping when you go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://nutrafol.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ and enter the promo code JUICYSCOOP! -Find exactly what you’re booking for at ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Booking.com⁠⁠⁠⁠, Booking.YEAH! Book today on the site or in the app! Stand Up Tickets and info: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://heathermcdonald.net  Subscribe to Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald and get extra juice on Patreon: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/JuicyScoopPod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/juicyscoop ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Watch the Juicy Scoop On YouTube: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@JuicyScoop⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Shop Juicy Scoop Merch: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://juicyscoopshop.com ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Me on Social Media: Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/heathermcdonald ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@heathermcdonald⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  YouTube: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@HeatherMcDonaldOfficial⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Heather McDonald has got the Juicy Scoot when you're on the road, when you're on the go. Juicy Scoop is the show to know. She talks Hollywood Tales for real life, Mr. Segment's Serial Data and Serial Sister. You'll be addicted and addicted fast to the number one tabloid real-life podcast. Listen in, listen to us. Whoop, woo. Heather McDonald. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. All right, I have a great interview for you where I interviewed a woman who has one of the most unbelievable stories about her marriage that won't be believed. It's super juicy. But first, let's get into some hot topics. But not until I tell you once more, because I do not want to hear you cry about it, that you better get your plans together for me.

Vegas, November 14th. That is a Friday night at MGM Grand. You've got to come to my show. There is a low ticket alert. There's still really great, well, the whole theater, there's great, there isn't a bad seat in this theater. But I want to make sure you get your tickets for the girls that you're with. If for some reason you're going alone, you will not have a bad time because the fans that'll be there that weekend for BravoCon are top notch. But the best fans are the juicy scoopers and so they will be there and they're always so nice and fun so get your plan together you don't want to miss out on this who knows how many more live juicy scoops will be or bravo cons or whatever so get it together go and enjoy we spend so much time talking about

all this stuff do it also of course uh patreon is this friday and i've got really deep inside scoop as promised, about the juiciest stuff in Hollywood, some dark shit I'm going to share that is juicy, and so much more. So that's going to be this Friday. I hope you're part of my Patreon. Go to Heather MacDonald.com. Okay, big news. The new Bachelorette on ABC is Taylor Frankie Paul, the one who started the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives show because she was part of the mom TikTok that decided one day to get on and say, yeah, the reason my mom talk is kind of dismantled is because we were swinging. We were soft swinging and people caught feelings for each other and it all exploded and it was quite shocking because all these girls were so cute.

They could all dance. They all had long hair and, you know, little peach cheeks and were cute and tiny and married young and Mormon. Well, the show starts and by the time the show starts airing, she is now divorced from her first husband and who she has two kids from. and now she's dating this other guy and she gets pregnant with him. She is no longer with him. And now she is the Bachelorette. This is extremely juicy.

Genius, I think, to ignite into the franchise of what is the Bachelor, the Bachelorette, the Golden Bachelorette, and the Golden Bachelorette. Because it also makes sense because people thought, how was she, who's really the star? the most recognizable face of Mom Talk. Why wasn't she chosen to be on dancing with the stars?

Because the two other girls, Jennifer Affleck and the other girl Whitney, who did the dance while her son was in NICU and Love You. And she'd like do a little ass jump up and she was, you know, doing this dance and her child was just in the clear little NICU cradle. That's what I just did a juicy crime about this. here next week, by the way, let me remind you. Link is in the notes description below. You're going to subscribe to Juicy Crimes. You're going to leave a review, and you're going to also do that on the juicy crimes on YouTube, and you're going to tell a friend. Okay. Talking about how quickly

the quote-unquote canceled people, what happened. When that girl did that video dancing with her ass in the air while her child was on breathing mechanisms, she thought her life was over. She thought She was going to be canceled. The whole world hated her. Well, then she got on Mom on Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. Now her body snatched, just squirted out her fourth kid and is doing dancing with the stars. So, you know, life can work out, girls. Hey there, it's Heather McDonnell from Juicy Scoop, and I have the juiciest of them all on Audible.

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And now Frankie Paul, who we've seen on two seasons of the show, crying with her parents about, you know, that she needs to stick with guy number two because she had baby number three with guy number two and all of this. And why didn't she get Dancing with the Stars? Because ABC, who also airs Dancing with the Stars, was, had this secret going that she was going to be the next Bachelorette. this is very juicy because I don't even know, and you guys would know better, I know we've had contestants, men and women on the Bachelor of Franchises, Bachelor

and Bachelorette, who were parents with one, maybe never more than two kids, but mostly I think just one. And that's always like a controversial thing. And usually the Bachelor of Bachelorette doesn't know that the suitor is a parent until like the third or fourth date. where they've hung out with them and they're like, oh, I love that you're a parent and then maybe we see the kid

and maybe we don't. But this is pretty juicy. Not only is she not part of the Bachelorette franchise where they recycle people, which I have been telling them for years, stop doing this, get somebody exciting, get somebody who's, if it's a guy, get somebody who's truly good-looking

and successful and rich, not a has-been leftover from a bachelorette season, get something that we're excited about she's beautiful, she can dance she's got a good body she does drink whether she does anymore or not but she was kind of like a drinker party or boozer

that's why she fell into the swinging she was a swinger she knows how to side swing which means like it just starts off I guess with you laying next to each other and I don't know I'm kind of joking but there is a thing about I guess you just give

like a BJ from the side of your mouth. I don't know. So she was a side swinger and then also a mother of three that's juggling two baby daddies and she lives in Utah and she, you know, has some nice hair. So listen, this is going to be good. People are going to watch this. This was a very good TV movie move on their part. Also, the Golden Bachelor is happening. that comes out September 24th and one of my very best friends that I have known since my early 20s that is the reason why I became a stand-up because we had a job together and she threw down the Learning Annex magazine and she said leave this dumb cubicle job at Robinson's May and become a stand-up. She is on the Golden Bachelor and her name is Maya. I can't tell you what's going to happen

because I don't know what happens. They are sworn to secrecy, and I do not know. But she is a mother three recently divorced. So she, too, is a mother of three. It's going to be good. I feel like this franchise is, it had a big dip, and I think it's back, and I think this is going to be a very exciting season.

Okay, now we're going to get into one of the juiciest marriage stories I've heard, and coming off on the Mormon talk of Secret Lives of Mormon, mom's secret life and Mormon wives. This woman that I interviewed has such an interesting inspirational story about her life. And she did come from the Mormon church, her marriage, what happened in her journey with her husband. And it's just, it's a good one. You will like it.

It's juicy. So sit back and enjoy. And here we go with my interview. Thank you. I am very excited to talk to my first time guest because she has a very juicy book coming out about her life that I love. I love the subject. So you knew you'd be perfect for juicy scoop when you reached out. Jessica Frue, the book is called Shove Your Shoods.

And, I mean, let's get into what got you into realizing that your life is pretty crazy and that you can. also help people in the process. Yeah. It's always funny because I don't view my life as being crazy. I'm like, oh, this is just my life. And people are like, girl, what just happened to you? Like, what have you been through? But yeah, I mean, you want me to go into this story to tell you all things? Yeah, let's just kind of start. So, I mean, the line that caught my eye was my, I found out, my husband told me or whatever I found out, and we're going to find out in the interview how, that he's gay, which is something a lot of women deal with. It's not an unheard story.

But then you went and met the man he had an affair with and had dinner with to kind of get the scoop. Yeah. But then you also went back to the original gay husband to see if you could date him again. Yeah. Then you got married. So I want to hear all of it. First of all, first of all, first of all, let's go. Let's go.

up and everything. Yeah, so I grew up mostly in Idaho. I was raised in a very conservative Christian religion. We are Mormon, LDS, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I will get crap if I do not say the full title, so there you go. And my husband, my first husband was as well. We were both raised in this community and very much- Were your parents and grandparents? Like were they for generations you were Mormon? Yep, yep. And so does Idaho have a big Mormon community? Oh yeah. It's similar to Utah. It's not quite as much, but very similar. And so, like, Matt and I, my current husband and I always say, like, in Boise, where I live, if you go outside of Boise, it's Little Utah. Like, all of the surrounding areas just feel like Utah. There's lots of Mormons, all of the soda drink

shops that you see, like, all of the things, Secret Lives and Mormon Wives. I didn't know that the totally that. Okay. I didn't know that the dirty soda means you get like a, like a soda pop and then you put, like, cream in it? Yeah, it has, like, coconut cream and lime. Into, like, a root beer or a, yeah, like, so if I'm going to get a dirty soda, I thought, you can't have caffeine. Okay, so, yes, there was, like, at one point where people, I don't even know where it came from, but there was this thing in the church saying that we couldn't have caffeine.

I'm like, I've never heard this. Like, I never heard these rules that we can't have caffeine. Coffee was always a no. And, like, black tea and green tea, I don't know. I don't understand. Where it started. Yeah. I mean, there's like a, we have a word of wisdom that they live by that's supposedly

scripture. And in that there is like no hot drinks. And so I'm like, did they just take that? But all of us drink, all of us drink hot chocolate. Like, so I don't know. And herbal teas are fine. I don't know how the lines all came to be drawn. But it is interesting.

Yes. Like my ex-husband, when I married him, he's like, you can't have caffeine. And I'm like, what? I didn't drink caffeine growing up just because I had heart issues, but I didn't understand. I'm like, this is not in church doctrine. Like, this isn't a thing. Okay, so we'll. So yes, dirty sodas.

So you have all that and you meet your husband. The first husband's name is Matt? My first husband is Steve. So I met Steve in college. Okay. Which college was that? We were at ISU, which is in Pocatello, Idaho. Uh-huh.

Super little town. And we met there. That was not a religious college. No. Uh-uh. No, neither of us went to BYU or a religious college at all. But I remember meeting Steve, and it was like, I knew this guy was going to change my life. And he did in many ways that I did not expect.

But we met, and then the next day he called me, and we went out the next night, and we were together any chance we could be after that. We were just really compatible and had fun together. But no premarital sex. No premarital sex. We did not have sex. And it's interesting because later we were talking, and Steve's like, I didn't even really made out with anybody until you.

I kissed a couple of girls, but nobody ever interest me as far as girls went until then because he's like, I don't know. And he always said the thing that attracted him to me was just that I was not afraid to be myself. He's like, you just showed up as you. And I couldn't put that together with like the church thing. And also you were bold and loud and didn't dress like everybody else. And so I think that's kind of what made our connection work.

We met in February. We were married in December, very much typical in the Mormon church to get married very quickly. And we got married in the temple, all of the things. So you're sealed and all that? Yep. We were sealed. We did the whole shebang. And it was interesting, like a few days before our wedding.

Which sealed means that when you go, if you believe, when you go and after you die, then the two of you will be hanging out for eternity. Yeah. And like your kids. So anybody, so any kids that you have within that marriage are also sealed to you. I find it so interesting because I've talked about this before. I mean, obviously there's been a lot of interest in Mormonism and reality TV. We have real housewives who are Mormon. We have the TikTok girls, Secret Lives, Mormon Wives. And the amount of divorce is sort of surprising to me because growing up Catholic, it was like we were told like, well, Mormon. is a way more like stricter religion about stuff like that, but there's so much divorce. Now, what happens if you divorce someone who you were sealed

with, can you get that remove, like the way Catholics get, I forgot the word that you use when you get married the church, but you can get it not exonerated, but like taken away so you can get married the church again, which doesn't really happen. Most people get married

church in once. If they get married again, they don't even try to like do it. I'm done. But for super religious people that were like Then you have to prove, like, that he lied to you early on or he was mentally ill or she was or whatever to get anulment. Catholic annulment. That's what it is. Okay. So how does it work with the ceiling?

The ceiling is interesting. And there's a lot of controversy around this, quite honestly. So in a ceiling, if you can get it canceled is what it is. And you have to get like basically a permission or like a letter from your ex. And you have to go through this process of canceling that. Now, women are still technically sealed to their exes until they are married and sealed to somebody else. And men can be sealed to more than one person, but women cannot. So maybe it's that like my husband Matt is still technically sealed to his exes.

ex-wife and me, because he and I did the temple thing, too. So husband number two is Mormon, too? Yes. Okay, so let's go back to husband number one. Yes. So you guys get married, sealed the whole shebang. Yeah. You're how old?

I was like 19, 20. I was 20. Did you guys have kids? We ended up having a daughter about five years in after like some fertility stuff. And I knew he was gay at that point. So he came out. Wait. So let's hear about that.

So. What year? and how far into marriage did you suspect first, or did he tell you before you even suspected? He could never, so I knew before he could even say the words, I'm gay. So I found back in the day, there were all these pop-ups that would come up on your computer. So I opened up our laptop one day and he's at work.

And what year is this around? This would be like 2004. Okay. Yeah. So all are, yeah, right around there, 2005. all of these pop-ups start coming up on the computer and it's all porn which I wasn't shocked by I knew he looked at porn but it was all men

and I was like I didn't know this and I knew like sure there's some straight guys that look at gay porn but there was something in me that was like this my husband is gay and when he came home that night he knew I wasn't okay we talked about it and how did you say it I said are you gay like Steve are you gay and and he's like no

I just felt it was better tonight disrespect women and so I convinced like I and so I only looked at men like I didn't want to disrespect women this is like how deep in denial he was yeah that's crazy he was so deep in denial and he told me years later he's like that night was the first night I even let myself think to myself I'm gay it hadn't been until that point that he could even let those words enter his mind fast forward two years later he's in counseling and the counselor's like hey yes you're dealing with all these other issues but the main issue is is that you're gay and until you accept that. Now was this counselor a Mormon counselor or just a person

that you guys found through like marriage and family counseling? I don't think it was a Mormon counselor at this point. I think we had tried a couple and we were like and was he going to therapy alone or always together? On his own. This was totally on his own. Okay. Yeah. And the counselor's like you're gay and until you accept and love that about yourself, you're going to struggle with all these other things. Like they're going to be an issue. And so at that point Steve came to me He told me he's gay. How did you tell you? He didn't actually tell me.

Now, at this point, do you have your daughter? No. Okay. No. So this is like two years in, two and a half years in. We're like in the middle of moving. And how often are you boning and stuff? Yeah.

I mean, we had a really healthy sex life. Steve, when we talked about this at some point on our podcast, he was like, wow, I forgot we had that much sex. How often were you having it? I mean, like, three, four times. week at least. Oh, wow. Yeah. It was very healthy.

And it was interesting because I talked to my friends who were in a heteronormative relationship and they're like, we're not having that much sex. And they didn't know Steve was gay. But I was just like, that's just what we do. Yeah. It's our thing. And I think it's because we are emotionally connected. Like, I was the only one that knew he was gay.

Yeah. And he was the only person that knew this truth about him and it created really deep connection between us. Anyway. But he was still, he was still coming around like making you feel. beautiful while you had sex and when you were to be having sex with him would you think I wonder if he's thinking about gay porn right now or did you never let your mind go there I mean during sex I never let my mind go there like I just enjoy yourself yeah this is about us this is about us right now

I mean there were moments of thinking that outside of the bedroom where I question all of those things and we got to a point where we would talk about like who he thought was attractive at the grocery store and like nudge each other and we would watch yes with the guys at the grocery store because I really wanted him to feel safe being who he is and like accepting himself what were your careers at this time um so at that point when I found out he was gay Steve did hotel management and we were actually in the process of moving to Belize and so he was down there and I had just quit my job why were you moving to Belize he managed a hotel down there we went on vacation. He applied for a job, got one, and we moved down there. How fun. Was it

great? It was really fun. And that's where our daughter was born. She ended up being born in Belize. What's the gay life there? I mean, there's not much. Which was good for our marriage at the time. You know. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It was like, I've got a hotel to work out in West Hollywood, everyone. Okay. Yeah. I remember him coming on trips to California, like work trips for trainings and things. And coming back real happy? And coming back, and no, he would feel so much shame and guilt because he would go to, like, the gay parts of town. And he'd tell you all this. He would tell me this.

And he'd never, I mean, he did things that were outside of the boundaries of what I felt was appropriate for our marriage. Like, going to, like, clubs and going to porn shops where they have, like, the little rooms and people knock on him to see if you want help and things like that. He's like, I never let anybody in, but he would go do these things. But he would tell you, like, hey, by the way, after work, I'm going to the peep show. He wouldn't tell me before. This was always after the facts. So it would be like, oh, how was work? It was great.

Actually, last night, I just, like, got an itch. And I went to a gay club. He would tell you, like, how would you tell you? I mean, it was usually after he got home and it would be like a check-in. Because I knew these things were, like, quote-unquote, temptations for him or things. Like, that's how we talked about that. Where's your family? You're not sharing anything with your family, are you?

No, our family doesn't know. Steve's mom, he told his mom like a year before we got divorced. Okay. She was the only person in the family. And what was her reaction? She was a mess, like, total mess. It's been a rocky road with family and navigating all of that. And some of that is more like Steve's story to share on that end of things.

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spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L dot com promo code juicy scoop. That's Nutraful.com promo code juicy scoop. Yeah. But yeah, so I mean, these were conversations we had. We were very open with each other. And it took Steve often time to be able to. to own some of the things that were going on or be able to tell me, but I always knew something was going on. Like, I knew Steve well enough to know something had shifted, something wasn't okay. And I knew the instant he had an affair. Like, I knew that second. So all those other times, besides peeking at gay porn and the privacy of his own computer at home, when he'd go to actual places where gay men were, he would just say, I just looked. Did he ever say, I exchanged

numbers do you ever say I did a handy J but nothing more like none of that none of that do you believe it I do actually okay just because he's been so honest with me he had no reason not to tell me and you were never afraid that he would cross the line and then possibly not be open with you and bring you home some type of disease I I was worried he would cross the line that there would be an affair like I I wasn't dumb I knew that was a real possibility for our relationship and and stayed in the relationship knowing that like I knew that I was choosing into something that was very highly likely to end in divorce and or an affair and so and did you feel like you were kind of being like the ultimate ostrich with your

head in the sand procrastinator because like you did love his companionship and everything so you're just trying to tell yourself that this could continue with that. though your soul was saying this can't go on forever like this and it's not fair to me you know it i stayed until it really didn't feel right there was a point i mean after he had the affair and stuff and we still tried to make things work after that there was a point where i was like steve you're ready to just go embrace this like go be who you were created to be and i'm good penny and i pennies our daughter will be fine like we'll figure all of this out and so at that point well let's go back because i'm jumping ahead let's go back to the infamous day of where he hasn't said i'm gay but he says

i like gay stuff and looking at men and attracted to men but we're still having sex to the point where he comes to you with this bombshell and what where and when and what did he say okay so when i found out he was gay. He didn't actually come to me. What happened was he had moved to Belize and he had bought a bunch of stuff like at our church's book store. But weren't you living in Belize with him? I was like getting our house. Oh, you were to join him. Rented and like the car sold and like that type of stuff. So I was coming in three weeks. Yes. And at this point, he's like, hey, I have some stuff I need returned to the bookstore. Will you take it back for me? And I'm like, sure. Like I'll, I'll do that after you leave. So I'm in line at the bookstore.

and it's our church bookstore. And I'm looking at the receipt and it's like homo, homo, because it just has like the first part of all of these books that he bought. And I'm like, oh my gosh, he's come to terms with the fact he's gay. But wait. And so the Mormon bookstore has homosexual books?

They have things for individuals and they'll say like people who struggle with same gender attraction. So it's a book to kind of try to convert you back to being heteroa. help you stay in a heteronormative relationship to give your hope, to help you stay like in line. Like keep the path type thing. And which I didn't know they had until that moment either.

I was like, what the heck? And he bought them, but he was returning them after. He was returning some other stuff and he forgot that was on the receipt. Oh, I see. Okay, go, go. So, and like his counselor was like, they probably have some stuff at the bookstore, go pick it up. So he did. Okay.

To take with him to Belize. and so I was returning this stuff and I was like oh my gosh so I went and bought a couple books and started reading stuff and I called him and I'm like hey just so you know like I went and got this I saw this on the receipt and I'm like I'm assuming you've come to terms of the fact you're gay and he's like yes I am like whatever and my current husband Matt is always like why did you not leave right then like why did you not leave like that was you were already separated he's in Belize. You don't have a, like your assets are separated basically. How old are you at this point? I was 23, 24. Yeah. And during those times of having regular sex, you weren't successful in getting

pregnant or you were? We were actively trying to have a kid. We were actually in like artificial insemination and I was on. So you went to that because you couldn't get pregnant. Was it your, did you ever know who was, whose issue it was of why you guys couldn't conceive? I've never been able to get pregnant again. Okay. We, we, I've randomly gotten pregnant once. And so I'm assuming there's something off with me, but nothing that they've ever pinpointed. Okay. And so I had my one, but I got pregnant with her when we moved to Belize. So at that point, but through IVF? No, I ended up just naturally getting pregnant with Steve. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Oh, okay. Okay. So, okay, continue. Yes. So he says that to you and then, but you're like, but I'm still going to be your wife or what? I mean, we talked like, what does this

look like what do we want and we both were still in it so we're like okay let's keep going forward until this doesn't work basically like that's kind of how it was and at that point you didn't say but if you're gay are you going to want to actually have intercourse with a man I mean we had all those conversations and he was just like no that's not something I want that's not how I ever envisioned my life which he hadn't because he'd only been shown one way of living I mean only because you're in the church juicy scoop I'm going to ask you ask me, ask me the things. I mean, were you like, do you want to be a top or do you want to be a bottom?

What do you see yourself as? And does that freak you out? And did he ever ask you to peg him? No, uh-uh. And I actually had offered to do things and he's like, nope, I can't do it. I can't, I can't mesh those two worlds. He, like, in no way. But did you ever ask him about what he desired in a man-on-man relationship and what role he would play?

But I think he couldn't even. picture that or like grasp that in himself until he had the affair and when he had the affair I remember him telling me he's like just I'm I'm crushed because I know I've hurt you like this is so how does he tell him let's go to the affair part yes so you go to Belize you're still lived there you're living there but had a baby but how often are you talking about his gay side at that point I mean it comes up like probably a few times a month okay or so I mean it's not like a daily conversation. I mean, do you go see Black, what is it called?

Mountain, what was it called? Oh, he was watching that. Brokeback Mountain. What was it called? Brokeback Mountain. Did you go, when that movie came out, did you guys go see it? He had already seen it. Like, that came out. You already seen her 10 times. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure I do remember that was one he watched a bunch. You're like, it's like the child that's always watching Frozen. You're like, oh, yeah, my gay, bourbon husband is watching. Why don't we just buy the deal? at this point. Sorry, you don't have to keep checking it up. Okay, so, um, okay, so what happens? Get to the day. Yeah, we, we, we had moved back from Belize. We're in the States. We had our

daughter. She was almost two at this point. And Penny and I had gone home to Idaho for a family reunion. And we came back and it was Labor Day weekend, actually, which is coming right up. And, uh, we get to the airport and Steve picks us up. We come out and Penny runs over to Steve and throws her arms around him. And I'm just standing there watching, like, this cute little moment. And also, I felt sick. Like, I could just tell something was totally different. It's the full instinct.

Everything in me. Yeah. I mean, Steve didn't look different. Like, obviously, there was no visual signs. But it was just like your women's intuition. Yes. And so we go have a little lovely evening. As a family, we put Penny to bed.

And I'm like, Steve, is everything fine? And this was the other indicator. He didn't want to have sex, which always when I came home from a trip or he came home from a trip, it's just, you know, what we did. And it wasn't a requirement. It was just who we were. And I was like, what is happening? Like, this is so weird. And he's like, nothing happened.

We're good. I'm fine. Everything's fine. I was like, okay. And so fast forward just a week later. And I was still like, not okay. I was up at night, crying. I was having to watch friends to fall asleep at like two in the morning to like get my brain to calm down.

Friends and I were real tight at that point. It's a good distraction. Yeah. And I was like, I know where I can get the answers. And Steve left his phone home. And so I was like, I'm just going to look. And I'll look at his email. I know which email to check.

I know which friend he would message. And I go on to check. I opened the email. I start reading. I'm like, I can't do this. This isn't who we are. Like, we've never had this type of a relationship. Right. And so I shut it and put it away. But that night, I told Steve, I'm like, hey, I'm really sorry. I want you to know I got on your phone. I didn't read anything, but I started to. I don't know what was in that email, but this is the one I opened and whatever. And he flips on the lights at that point. And he's like, Jessica, you have no reason to be sorry. I had an affair with a man.

I was with him the whole weekend when you were gone. I'll tell you anything you want to know and just had this really deep conversation. I didn't want to know anything. I'm like, I don't want to know details. I don't want to hear all of the things. I just need to know, like, general things when this started, what you're feeling now, where we go from here.

I don't want to hear details, which I'm really glad I had that in me because it's not something I want to hold on to. Yeah, it wouldn't be me, but. Yeah. You would want all those juicy details. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

And I mean, it was like his first weekend having sex with a man and drinking and like all of these things. And so it totally like flipped so much. Oh, drinking because you guys were not drinkers. Yeah. So he was able to do. Oh, he was just doing all the fun things. Yeah. Yeah.

Doing poppers too or no, you don't know. I don't think so. Okay. But at that point that's when he said to me, he's like Jessica, I. I've this has never felt so right like I've never felt something so right in my life except for the fact that I know it's going to hurt you so badly he's like that part feels crushing and it's like these two dual things that he's juggling at that point and we tried to work it out for a while he's like I don't want to leave this guy had the affair with is like stay with her

I didn't know you were married all of these things and then ultimately I was like Steve like we need to be done like this needs to end so how far how far between that infamous night and you actually being like we're done it was like six to eight weeks so it wasn't terribly long right we were but now you're establishing your life oh no because you're already living in belize for a while okay sorry so um okay so now get to who this guy is yeah yeah so when i decided to leave we had just moved to Oklahoma. And I was like, Steve, I know nobody here. I can't stay here and navigate this. And you went there for his work. Yes, for his work. And he's like, okay, that's fine. And we owned a house in Boise. He's like, go back to our house and we'll figure out all the things with Penny and all

of that. And I was like, okay. And I told him, I said, okay, but before I leave, I want to meet this guy because it sounds like you guys are going to stay together. So he kept seeing him during those six weeks? He was not seeing him and he cut contact at first. but then I knew there were emails or texts going back and forth. Because you're looking at the phone? No, just because Steve would, like, I kept checking in, and Steve was honest with me about it. And so I was like, listen, like, your words are telling me you want to be with me.

Your actions are speaking otherwise. Like, let's just be done. Like, we can figure out something new. So, but I did tell him before I leave, I want to go to dinner with this guy. I want to meet him. Now, during this time, are you sharing this with anybody? girlfriend's friends family nothing we had so we had just moved from Colorado to Oklahoma and so a couple of my friends in Colorado knew and I actually went and stayed with

them for like a week or two and were any of them were any of them like fuck him and like like or a little bit more negative than you're like completely open accepting heart they really weren't uh-huh those friends weren't I mean I'm sure there were people who said that but there also people knew I wasn't open to receiving that. Okay. I was like, you can say that and do that, but I will not be on board. Okay. Like this is the husband, like my dad's, my daughter's dad, I'm not going to throw him under the bus.

I'm not going to treat him that way. He's a good guy. There were big feelings, though. I always, I'm like, there were still, there was still a lot to process through. I still had to go through the feelings of anger and resentment and bitterness. And not necessarily at him, just at the situation. But it was all there. Everything that comes with infidelity and all of that was still there.

Yeah. But yeah, we, so we went to dinner. Like this guy he had the affair with and Steve and I and Penny because she's too. And what was he your age? Was he good looking? Like what was he like and what was his story? I mean, he was the most gentle, kind man. He was close to our age at the time.

And we were like 27, 28 at this point. And it was interesting because Steve was just like a ghost. He was pure white sitting at that table. And this guy and I are just having a conversation. And Steve, I think, was just having an out-of-body experience. Like, what is happening in my life right now? And so the guy at the end asked if he could drive me home. He's like, can I drive you back to your guys' house?

And I was like, yeah, that's fine. And he just sobbed. With MX Platinum. to exclusive Amex pre-sale tickets can score you a spot track side. So being a fan for life turns into the trip of a lifetime. That's the powerful backing of Amex.

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He just to you, so the husband wasn't there. No, just the two of you. Just the two of us. He sobbed and said what? He said, he's like, I wish. Well, first he said, I'm so sorry. It was never my intention to break up a marriage. And I'm like, listen, if it wasn't you, it would have been somebody else.

Right. This isn't about you. I don't view this as you broke up my marriage. This was what Steve decided to do, and that's fine. Like, I'm not dumb. I was married to a gay man. I knew this was a possibility. And he was like, I just hold him to stay with you.

I've always wanted a wife and kids. And if I could have found somebody that was accepting as you, I would have done that. But I was like, listen. And at this point, Steve's not okay emotionally. I'm just really glad he is somebody like you around to watch out for him because I'm not going to be here. So please just be aware of him as much as you can. And that's kind of how we left things. And then I drove Penny and I home across the country the next day, cried a lot and sang a lot.

And okay, so then where did you guys go with like divorce proceedings and stuff? So I went to my friend's dad Had him right up our divorce Steve signed whatever I put in front of him It was super fast and easy And we got that done And then what did custody look like Because now you're in different states

So we just put it as like the I had 100% custody Just because we were in different states And we're like we're going to figure this out Like we get along We had he came home for Christmas So I left at the end of October And he came home for Christmas. He's like, I am scared to death to go to Christmas with my family and like be in.

Because now they know. They know. My parents know. Everybody knows. I remember calling my parents and telling him and it was like silence on the other hand to the phone like what? And were they at all like negative towards him like what the how could he do this to you? Why did he ever marry you in the first place?

Was there any that kind of reaction? I mean initial reaction, sure. Like there was some of that. And I remember my mom. We went shopping after I got back there to pick up, like, some house things that I needed. And I needed a strainer, like a colander. And we're in Walmart buying whatever we can get. And she got so pissed in that aisle.

Like, just pissed. I'm like, the strain is what brought it out, Mom. And she's like, yes. I'm just so mad. And I'm like, let it out. Like, you get to be mad. Like, this sucks. Yeah.

But there were moments of that. But they also saw, they followed my lead on my side of my family. My family very much. My brother got really pissed for a while, one of my brothers. And then I told him, I'm like, listen, you can be pissed as long as you want. And also, Steve's going to be at her birthdays. And he's going to be at holidays. And he's going to be at all of these things because that's what we're hoping for for Penny.

And like, so if you want to be there, you got to figure this out. You can be pissed. Embrace it. But then figure it out. And so he came around really quickly too. But Steve coming home for Christmas, he's like, I can't do it. this on my own. So I went and spent Christmas with Steve's family. And we got family pictures taken. Steve and I and Penny because we didn't have any family pictures. And I wanted her to see

like us together and how much we loved each other and all of that. So we have the cutest family pictures. We were both really skinny because we were on the divorce diet. So they're rocking. And so now let's go to where you wanted to give it one more chance with Steve. Oh my gosh. Yeah. How did that come about? So I. I started dating very quickly. I think I'd processed this as being my reality for quite a while. And so I started dating pretty quickly, and I was dating this guy, and I messaged Steve one night, and I'm like, hey, I'm falling in love with somebody else.

And I know you had messaged a couple times saying that you might move back here, that you might move up to Boise. And I don't know if that's for me or if that's for just so you can be close to Penny and either one's great. But if it's for me, you need to let me know now. And he calls me the next morning and he's like, Jessica, I can't leave you. I can't do this. Like, I'm still so confused. Now, are you legally divorced? We are legally divorced at this point. Yeah. And how old is your daughter now? She's still too. Like, this is all within a year. Yeah. She turned

to right after I moved home to Boise. Okay, got it. And he's like, I can't do this. I can't, I can't leave the church yet. Like, I can't do any of this. And I'm like, well, then move home and let's figure that out. He's like, I've been trying to figure out. He's like, I've been trying to figure out the job thing. I said, screw the job. Like, take the action. And so he quit his job the next day. And three hours later, they called him back and they're like, we just had a job opening come open and Boisey, do you want it? And he's like, yeah. So he's thinking all the signs from the universe God, yep, is saying this was just a little blip in your life. Yep. And you're meant to be the traditional straight dad and husband. Yeah. And stay in the church. And it's interesting because at some point along the line, well, it was my penney was six months old, I had this deep feeling that this was going to be a story I was going to share. But at that point, Steve and I are married and I thought it was going to be how we made this relationship work in the church.

And, you know, you can have a mixed orientation marriage. So you kind of have like a vision of like, I know this is, this bad thing's happening to me, but I know it's going to be something bigger later in the future. That's really, yeah. Yeah, I'm kind of like that too. So it's really interesting when you look back and you're like, no, I know. knew there was something like in the future. There was more for this. Yeah.

And it gave it deeper purpose. Right. But like now I'm so glad that's not the message I'm sharing. Like I give support to so many women who have had a partner come out. And through our podcast, we've helped so many people. And so I'm grateful for that. Okay. So get back.

I'm really glad. He comes back. He gets the job in Boise. Yeah. And like, yeah, he gets the job in Boise. And we start dating. again, we're like, let's commit to like six months. Let's see how this goes. And it was a complete shit show. Like, there is no other way to describe how that went. How is it a shit show?

I mean, he's like drinking behind my back, which I didn't care of these drinking. I'm like, just be honest with me about it. And he's got guys behind my back. And we aren't sleeping together because I'm like, I'm not sleeping with you. I don't know where you've been at this point and what's going on. Did you say you've got to be fully tested before we get intimate or I was like I won't I won't sleep with you again until we're married oh okay partially just because of my own boundaries with right I don't know what this is going to be I don't know where you've been like I'm not doing this until smart we're really committed we know what it's like to be together yeah this isn't a question on that end but um yeah it was a mess and we were both so emotional and all over the board and it was interesting he was going to church he came to the same church congregation as me and my current husband had just moved into that ward too

or like the church congregation and he and Matt became friends so Steve and Matt started mountain biking together and they would always leave from my apartment complex because it was near the trailheads and so Steve and I are mess and one night they're going mountain biking Matt and Steve and some friends are going mountain biking together

and I go up there and I didn't met Matt yet I had no clue we went to church with us or anything I took Penny to see Steve And Steve's like Hey this is Matt He goes to church with us And I saw Matt And I was like

I'm gonna marry that guy I was like That's my future husband Steve and I ended it a week later You didn't think at one moment Maybe they're fucking No Did not cross my mind

How long are these mountain bike rides Steve did always tell Well he tells Matt and I both this He's like I just would ride behind him And be like that man has nice calves which is very true. He also told me once when he was really wasted that Matt has really nice pecks

and he was like, no, I didn't. I'm like, you did tell me that, Steve. And he's like, no way. It's like you were also trying to kiss me, but. So you guys never in your attempt to try to get back together, did you live in the same home? No.

He had gotten an apartment. I was living in our home. and you never were intimate again? This is what the main like deal breaker was for me is he really wasn't attracted to me after he had the affair with the man. He was up until that point and then it kind of cut that.

And I felt guilty for a while feeling like why do I need him to want me? Like why is this such a big deal? I'm like, that's like what a marriage is. Like this is a big thing that makes it different from any other relationship. Of course I want to be wanted. That's so natural.

in us. I want to be desired. I want somebody that wants all the girly parts and all the things. And so, so yeah, that's what ultimately, I was like, I can't do this. You don't need to do this. Like, we don't need to do this. We're going to be fine. We're going to be friends. Let's go our ways. So we did. Once it was over that time, it was like done. And then, so then you start dating. I called Matt or reached out to him. I think it was on Facebook Messenger. Then next week. I said, hey, Matt, you want to go to my friend's party with me? He's like, wait a second. I'm so confused because he didn't know enough. Yeah. And you're still going to Mormon church every Sunday? Yeah. Do you still go to church now? Up until the beginning of this

year. It's been like... Up really? Why now have you... It's been a slow burn of releasing a lot of that and and honestly not something I've talked about a lot but it was it's just been like there's there were things that didn't feel right for me then even when Steve and I were married in the church that I really struggled with and especially that was like when prop eight was like a huge thing and Steve and I always yeah gay marriage Steve and I always joked that we supported gay marriage because I was married to a gay man all this stuff which I did support gay marriage even as an active member of the church. I'm like, I very much support this. And I don't understand, like, I knew people were created this way. So I'm like, this is part of, if I believe in God, this is part of God's

plan. Like people came this way. I've watched it in my husband. And so there was no question. Anyway, there was a slow unraveling for me of what I believe and all of those things. I have nothing against the church. I'm not like angry or bitter. But it doesn't resonate for what. I believe in what love looks like or what God's love looks like or any of that. In going, now, I've never been to a Mormon service. So I can only compare it to what I've been to in Catholic, which is like a whole, mass is like a routine of things. And, you know, and I've been to like Christian stuff where there's like a cute preacher

and, you know, like maybe like some tats or something. And I'm like, okay, do you see that this might be. a little more entertaining, but what is it? What is a Mormon weekly ceremony like? Yeah. So one of the things that I have liked about the church, and now I kind of see is like, I don't know if this is a good thing or bad,

but there's the same things taught all over the world every Sunday. So we have like the same messaging, at least there's two hours of church, at least the second hour is very much like if you are having this lesson in Boise, Idaho, you're also having it in Europe somewhere. Like it's the same lesson. It's the same type of program. And which made it like when you did travel, like when we moved to Belize, there's a community

there that you instantly feel connected to and that feels familiar, which always felt good. That's like Catholic too. Yeah. Catholicism is universal. Yeah. So it's like there's like a calendar. Okay, so the scripture, like, you're reading the same scriptures leading up to Christmas. Yeah.

And the same is leading through leading up to Easter. Yeah. And so, yes, if you're going to Mass in this place, I believe all the scriptures are the same. What the eulogy is like the speech. Not usually, that's very funeral. I forgot, I forgot like, well, like after the, they. read like the gospel yeah uh which is in the testament you know second testament bible of like you know jesus and then the priest it's up to the priest to say i met this woman at target he could say

whatever he wants and and somehow related that's so you know and some priests are way more entertaining than others you know some are podcast worthy and some are not you know what i mean like so you're like oh okay so then those might become more popular and then and then sometimes you're stuck with a real dud yeah and you're like I don't even want to go to church anymore but I have so much guilt about not going to church but I'm not really getting anything out of it yeah and I think that's what catholics like struggle with and the same type of thing and that the universal like laws of what is okay and what is not which is changing in the church as well especially with gay acceptance with the last pope and the previous and the new one which is good it's like

like the same thing. And then we used to call it, but growing up, my dad would be like, oh, she's a cafeteria Catholic. You need to take what you want. Like, you know, you will be on birth control, even though they're against birth control. You are accepting of gay couples. You, you know, that type of thing. But if you're truly the Catholic, you find the church on vacation. Yeah.

And we used to, we used to be that family. They had to find the church on vacation and go do it. And then... That's so funny. You know, and then even as my parents got older, they, like, started to blow it off. Yeah. And then it's like, oh, you know, and then you finally, like, realize, well, I'm an adult. What do I want to do today?

Yes. And I believe that from a good person, there isn't some checks and balances in heaven where they're like, can you pull up Heather and see if she showed up at the 11 a.m. Mass or not. Like, whatever it is. But other people feel like, no, it's my routine. like going to the gym. Yes. And if without it, I have a bad week and I need that spirituality and that community and all that. So I didn't really know that. So I'm like, I never really understood that there's a similarity in how it sounds, how the, how it was sort of established

in that it is like a similar thing in every place. Yeah. And one of the different things is that I know is a little different is like, so we have our first hour that's everybody together. And they pick speakers from like the congregation. Okay. So there will be like two or three speakers each Sunday that are from the congregation. And then like the next hours are just teacher led. Okay. Okay.

Yeah. And so, so then did you ever feel like that kind of a thing? Like you know you believe in God or like what is your belief system that then said maybe this, this, you know, established thing is not working for me. the way it used to. But I'm grateful that I got a relationship from God by being in it for 35 years or whatever it was. Yeah. Yeah, I definitely think that's how I feel about it. Is it gave me a base to believe in something greater than myself and to believe that there is some sort of plan for my life. That brings me comfort as a person. And not that I'm saying like the plans laid out. I can't

mess it up. Like I don't have my own agency. But that I could be used for something good. Or there is like purpose to my life like I was saying I knew I would share this story on some level of what we've been through an experience to help other people and knowing that like brings me a lot of comfort but ultimately for me I didn't feel like it didn't feel like love anymore if I believe the things I believe about God about the universe whatever is out there then they don't this the way we're taught in church doesn't feel like love to me. Like you're saying all of the shame

and the guilt and those things and not accepting everybody fully like they're not truly welcome in our church. Like Steve as Penny's dad would never have the same privileges or experiences as me within the church if he came back.

And I, that just doesn't sit right. Yeah. Yeah. That's really hard. And there's other things besides that also, you know, patriarchy in how women are treated and all of those things and I don't think it's done I mean I don't I say I don't think it's done intentionally I think there are people that do it intentionally I think the mass as a whole maybe it's not intentional but there's just so much

to unpack there I've had I've had to unpack that it's okay for me to have a voice and to want to be seen and to you know do things like this come on podcast yeah to share our story to be a speaker and presenter, and that that's okay and valued as a woman. And I've always just only seen that as that's men's, that's their job. They're the ones that will be seen. I will be in the background being supportive. That's not my job. Do you watch Real House v. Salt Lake City? Are you familiar? I have not watched that one. So one of the things I found, well, our audience is familiar with it. And there are, they're not all from Mormon backgrounds, but some are. And, and And there's the one Heather Gay who leaves the Mormon church and has written two books about bad Mormon and whatever.

And she, you know, got divorced and all this. And what I always thought was interesting is that she would get upset how she was like, you know, kind of like bashing the church in the sense of just like, I don't want to be part of it anymore. But then she would be weirdly, in my opinion, as a viewer, like jealous that this other girl, Lisa Barlow, who, wasn't raised Mormon, she was raised Jewish, married a Mormon man, and gets to go to all the cool, fun, Mormon things, but she also has a tequila company. So I'm always like, sometimes they'll be like budding hands. And I'm like, I think Heather Gay is like, why does she get to still have the, like, I really felt like with Heather Gay, she really missed the sense of community that you even see with the

the ones who are polyamorous, not polyamorous, polygamy. Yeah. Like, you know, and how they all work together and how it's all this and, you know, and the healthy eating and the Valerina Farms lady who like cooks from scratch. I think there's like a desire for that and there's some really lovely goodness about it. For sure. You know, like the healthy eating and it's like, you know, you look at like, you know, Mitt Romney when you're

he was running for president and I'm like oh my god no caffeine no alcohol like this guy looks fucking great for his age like yeah like I mean I think that's why they're like oh my god these girls are so attractive and so pretty and everyone's like you know pretty good looking and they're also great salesmen because they had to go be rejected for two years straight on a mission like there's some like kind of cool things about it so I'm I'm sort of fascinated by that for those reasons but yeah yeah there definitely is a community there that it can be hard to leave. It can be hard to kind of walk away from.

And I feel like I kind of still get to dip my toe in that. And so it hasn't been like something that I feel I've lost, which is nice. But also... It's not like a Scientology that when you leave... You are... Like no one can talk to you. You can't be invited to a party anymore. That'd be so horrible.

Yeah, it's not like that. Yeah. So then you and Matt, how soon after you start dating do you realize, like, you are ready to take it to the next level and get married for a second time? So when Matt and I met, I asked him out, we hung out a couple times. He's like, first of all, I need to know more of this story. Like, what's going on with you and Steve? What's the dynamic?

I don't really know. So he came over and we chatted about all that. And did he know Steve was gay? Uh-uh. Because he only knew that Steve and I were dating. He just wondered why Steve always wanted to ride behind him. Yeah. He's like, oh, whatever.

You want to check it out? Check it out, man. That's how mad. is. Okay, go on. Yeah. But I went after Matt. I was like, hey, I would love to hang out with you. I would love to go out. And we had the conversation, got all the clarity, shared about like what happened with him and his ex, because he had been married and has two kids. And he, anyway, we hung out again. And he's like, listen, I'm super flattered. You're really cute. And also, I'm dating this other girl named Jessica. And we've been dating just long enough that I don't feel good about

dating her name was her name was jessica as well he's dating two jessica yes and he's like so and i want to see where it goes with this other jessica and i said i said okay let me know when you break up with her and he's like okay and we still talked like we would see each other at church i would go to the gym i'd try and plan my gym routine around when i thought he'd be there because i wanted to see this guy like i knew there was something there and i was dating lots of guys along the way like I like dating. It's a fun game. But you're not having sex with anyone because you're still a good Mormon.

I am not having sex. Okay. Uh-huh. But I'm having fun. Being that you're still a good Mormon but you're divorced to a gay man. Is it like everything but penetration or is it like only touching above the clothes? Like what kind of rules are you doing for yourself as a mother who's in her 30s now? I was so straight edge. Like if you hit me at this.

point things would be a little different with what would happen when I was dating but I was so straight edge in that like I mean no guys touched my boobs no guys there was no dry humping there was none of that like I was not I know but it was just like and I was fine with it like it took a lot of drama out of dating for sure but there are a couple guys I'm like oh yeah I could have gone back and done that yeah yeah yeah um anyway I drop in every few months with Matt and I'd let him know again like hey let me know when you break up with her right and I think we've got something so one day at church he texts me during church he sat by me which was weird and then during the second hour he texted me he's like hey do you and the kids like do you want to meet

us at the park and I was like yeah this is different and we met up at the park he was telling me how he's never getting married he's done dating he's over all this crap he's breaking up with Jessica tomorrow and then that I was like okay and he broke up with her the next day and the next day And then next night he was up at my house and we were married eight weeks later. Like we just went for it. It's crazy. And so how long have you guys been married for?

We've been married 12 years now. And okay, so for the last 12 years, how has the dynamic been with ex-gay husband and new husband and all of it? They are so good together. It's been a journey. Like there's been a lot of times where, you know, I'd invite Steve to something.

I check with Matt still to this day. I'm like, hey, is it okay if I invite Steve? But at the beginning, it was like, let me know afterwards how this felt if I can invite him again. Like, let's check in. Yeah, we need to have these conversations. And I remember, like, Matt ended up teaching Penny

how to ride her bike because his kids were out riding bikes and she really wanted to learn. And Matt's like, I don't know what to do here. Because he felt it was maybe overstepping him. He didn't want to overstep bounds with Steve. Or have Steve be like bummed. It's like a haircut thing. I remember sometimes my mother-in-law, I'd be traveling so much, and I'd come home and the kids would have their haircuts.

Yeah. And I know that she thought, well, Heather doesn't have time. You know, she's doing stand-up. She's working at Chelsea lately. But then little boys, they get their haircuts, they end up looking like they just came out of boot camp. And you're like, why did my kid age five years? So it's like there were those things. And then, but it wasn't her fault.

Like I understood. So I see how that can happen, you know, especially when there's stepdad. and things like that. And the intention is positive. But it's so amazing that you guys were so, like, in tune with, like, thinking about someone else's feelings. Yeah. It's too bad and more people cannot be like that.

Yeah. And it's... Yeah. But I can understand, you know, it's a challenge. It is a challenge. It's hard. And I remember in that moment, like, Matt and I had both kind of separately told Steve

and sent him pictures and videos because we wanted him to feel included. And he was coming that night to pick Penny up. and Steve's like I'm really glad you told me he's like because it was a moment of like heartbreak and he's like and also I wanted to match Penny's energy because I knew when I got there she was going to be excited and want to show me and I didn't want her to have to worry about what I was feeling I wanted her to like I joined her in her excitement and so there's been a lot of moments like that as co-parents that we've kind of embraced those things and really talked about You know, I've talked a lot about this too because I'm a stepmom and it is a, it shouldn't be the child's job to have a court order where they can't accidentally call a stepparent mom or dad.

Yeah. Like when there's other kids calling their mom and dad and like, and I understand why that would be hard for somebody, but like if you just put it in a small child's perspective. Yes. And not your own and what's rightfully yours and how dare this woman that took her for ice cream where she goes, thanks, mom. And then she sees that a real mom saw that she accidentally slept. Like, I mean, it's hard enough that they're sharing two different homes and, you know. Yeah. And I always like to share like, Steve and Matt, so our podcast, when we had it, the three of us hosted a podcast together.

And it was called husband-in-law. Great title. Thank you. Because that's what they called. each other and it was such a like it brought them closer together and healing for Steve in so many ways and I think for Matt as well but just this coming together of hearing the story from Steve's side and understanding the pain and the heartache Steve went through um Matt tells people all the time he's like I love him like he's just part of our family and it's not like Steve's in our house all the

time but he's there you guys live in the same neighborhood we're like five minutes away from each other. Oh, that's so nice too. It's so great. And, but he does come over for holidays if he's around. And, like, we do, his birthday was at our house with my parents last year and things like that. And is he in a relationship, Steve? I don't know what's going on there right now. But he's never, has you ever been in something super serious or lived with someone? Yes, he has. And his partner was very much a part of our family as well and is welcomed with open arms um did he ever talk about steve having another child with a man or anything like that steve like talked about it for a little bit and then i was like hold your role steve i need you to

realize that this child doesn't go back and forth between our houses you have a full time child like this is your responsibility not my kid he's like oh because you because you think that you think that he thought it wouldn't be i think he just didn't think about the gravity of that. I'm having another child with someone else. Like this is a full-time job with this other person or whatever, not just me. He's always trying to get me to have another kid. I'm like, I try and I don't produce children apparently. We got lucky with the one. So you and Matt, if you were to, if you had got pregnant naturally, that would have been great, but you weren't going to go the next levels. No. I just like I don't want to. You said he had two kids. So you are a stepmother as well. How has,

how has his ex and you've gotten along? Oh my gosh. That's been a whole shit show. And I always say, like, the divorce was hard. Blending families and co-parenting and second marriage is the hardest thing I've ever done. Stepmoms, stepparents in general, it is a lot to navigate and to figure out. So my heart goes out to you as a stepmom. I don't know what your journey has been like. But it's a lifetime movie.

But it's very easy now. She's 25. It's very easy now. been very easy for quite a while but no it's it's very very hard and you know it's very hard for anybody and yeah yeah so but so it's been a challenge for you it's been a challenge and i think i mean matt fell apart when we first got married i think trauma from his first marriage came up that he wasn't expecting and then i was trying to sort through is this about me is this about something else I don't know. He's not communicating because he didn't communicate in his first marriage.

Like that wasn't an open door. So we were dealing with that. And then on top of that, we're dealing with his ex-wife and the kids and all of that. And it was, it was a mess. I left at one point. I was like, I'm not doing this. Like, I can't stay. I'm completely losing who I am. And I would rather lose him than lose who I was. Like, I can't. It's not something I'm willing to give up. And why was it so hard? Because, I mean, there were things that were being said about me there was parental alienation that was going on just all of those i mean at one point matt was accused of abuse to her like domestic violence and it came out that that was a lie and just so many things those types of things are so awful like did you do the exchanges at the police station

we did them at the church oh at the church okay at the end of all of that it was it was always good times before and after church pick up and drop off i'm still triggered like if i go certain police stations. There's one in Recita that that's where we used to do the exchanges. Yeah. And one in Fullerton

and they even have like a little box of toys like for the people because the reason for someone who's like why would you do an exchangeable? Because one of the spouses might make a false accusation

that in just exchanging the child that you chuck something at them or do something physical. So you want police. Witnesses that everything is copacetic. Yeah. It's so not fun. It is not fun. It is not the way to do it, man. It's, yeah, we did one at, like, we did a fire station for a while. And I remember the day after, maybe two days after the assault charges were put, like, laid out there. We met at the fire station. By the way, we had all that too. Yeah. We had all that too. Yeah. We met at the fire station. And I'm in the car. recording out the back window. We had to do the recording next to. And Matt's got a recording going and the kids

went out to their mom like, Jessica's recording this and then there was this huge blow up and we're like, why would you not expect us to record this? Like you just accused him of assaulting you. Like we're going to have our backs. So there's been stuff like that. Now we're good.

We can sit at sporting events together. How old are all the kids Penny and your step kids? So yeah. Our oldest is 18. He just left for college. And then we have a, Matt has a 17-year-old daughter that lives with us almost full-time. And then Penny's almost 16 and she's with us basically full-time. I mean, they see their other parents. It's just like at that age, it's hard to go back and forth.

Yeah, they can do their thing. Yeah, it's up to them to have, to form their relationships and hope that those are good. Yeah. So tell us about the book and what it covers and why people should order it. Yeah. Yeah. So the book goes into basically creating deep connection back to ourselves. And I do that through decision making. I help women mostly walk through how to come back to themselves. So when life doesn't go as planned, because when does it ever go as planned, you know how to make decisions that are

in alignment for you. I did this work in real time as I navigated the divorce in seeing how this played out of like, oh my gosh, I have so much power in this process because I know who I am and I'm clear about what I want moving forward, which often when we hit divorce, we don't know what the hell we want. This wasn't the plan. This wasn't what our life should look like or where we should go. Or even that you're so angry and hurt and you feel tricked and deceived that you give your power away, right? To like the anger and all of that instead of truly being a best friend to yourself. Yes. Yeah. We get stuck in those emotions and they're not leading us towards what we ultimately want. Yes, we need to fill them. Yes, we need to let them right to them.

Yes, you are totally entitled to all of them. But maybe don't let that be the key thing that's guiding your decisions. And also, don't let your aunt and your best friend and your dad and your mom be the decision maker in those moments, which those voices get so loud when you're going do anything big in life because everybody has their opinion. Well, you should do this. You should be getting divorced faster. These are things I heard. You should get divorce faster. You shouldn't let him be in your life anymore. Like all of these things. And I use the word should because it's easy to identify of where we're placing judgment on our actions. So I wanted a way to be able to support more women. I'm like, listen, I do coaching programs. I run, I mean, they cost a chunk of money.

and I know not everybody can afford that. So the book's an opportunity to be able to support more people and help them release that conditioning that we've been in. I mean, so much of it comes for many of us, from religion or culture or society. We're going to release that. And we're going to understand how decision-making works and how we can utilize it for us,

how we can really get in tune with our intuition without all of the should that's been put on us. I love it So tell everybody where they can find you, follow you, order the book And then when would the book be available once they order it today? So you can pre-sale is open right now until September 12th, I believe And then it goes into regular sale Okay

Right now when you, if you, I don't know if this is dropping before September 12th Oh yes. Yes. You can go get like there's extra coaching bonuses So if you get it now you can buy into some of those things and get extra support in releasing that conditioning so that you can make aligned decisions. And you can go to shove your shoulds.com anytime you're hearing this and pick that up. And then I am most active on Instagram. You can find me at Hey, Jessica Frue.

Thank you so much. I think it's great. And I'm so glad that you came down in person. And we got to spend this time together. It was a really great, inspiring conversation. Thanks so much for having me. It's been awesome. Thank you.