Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald - Taylor Frankie Paul and why Mom Influencers use their Children for Content

Episode Date: March 19, 2026

Taylor Frankie Paul drama heats up with the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives shutting down production due to DV accusations involving she, her baby daddy and child. I talk to reporter and author, Fortesa Latifi, whose new book “Like, Follow, Subscribe” explores influencer families. What is it like for a child who is part of a family vlog? Is it right to shares your baby’s childhood online for clicks and dollars? How should The Bachelorette air this season with Taylor? What if was the bachelor who was accused of DV? Such a juicy show! Enjoy and preorder the book! -Take off 20% sitewide plus free shipping at ⁠https://BollAndBranch.com/juicyscoop⁠ with code juicyscoop. Exclusions apply. See site for details.  -Head to ⁠https://dosedaily.co/JUICYSCOOP⁠ or enter JUICYSCOOP to get 35% off your first month subscription.  -Go to ⁠https://quince.com/juicy⁠ for free shipping and 365-day returns  -Our listeners get 15% off plus free shipping when they buy two or more pairs of prescription glasses at ⁠https://WarbyParker.com/JUICYSCOOP⁠ using our link helps support the show. #WarbyParker #ad Subscribe to my new show Juicy Crimes!: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/juicycrimes⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Stand Up Tickets and info: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://heathermcdonald.net⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald and get extra juice on Patreon: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/JuicyScoopPod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/juicyscoop⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Watch the Juicy Scoop On YouTube: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@JuicyScoop⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Shop Juicy Scoop Merch: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://juicyscoopshop.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Me on Social Media: Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/heathermcdonald⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@heathermcdonald⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ YouTube: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@HeatherMcDonaldOfficial⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Heather McDonald has got the juices scoop. When you're on the road, when you're on the go, Juicy Scoop is the show to know she talks Hollywood Tales for real life, Mr. Semicen serial data and serial sister, you'll be addicted and addicted. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. Oof, I've got such a juicy show for you with an expert who's going to weigh in. I'm going to explain that in a minute. But first, let me remind you again, Salt Lake City people.

I mean, we are going to be talking about Secret Lives of Bormon Wives. We're going to be talking about Real Housewives Salt Lake City. We're going to talk about real house with Beverly Hills. We're going to talk about all the juicy, funny stuff that's happened. It's going to be a fun escape. And it's going to be at Wise Guys this weekend. Please go to Heather MacDonald. com.net to get tickets.

I'll see you in Salt Lake City. Okay, latest on Taylor Frankie Paul. As of this recording, the Bachelorette is still ready to air on Sunday night. They don't give a shit, okay, of what is going on. Super juicy info coming out of TMZ. People that were on set and were part of the taping of Reunion 3, the third reunion, 3. the third reunion, third season. They said there was a whole moment at that reunion between Taylor and her baby daddy on and off boyfriend, Dakota,

where he accused her of physical abuse. She accused him back. They chose not to share that footage with us. They claim the people that, according to TMZ that worked on the show said it didn't have to do with the season, because the fights that they're talking about was not aired. Now, we know we've all watched plenty of reunions on Real House House of Beverly Hills, and that doesn't matter. Someone could be like, at our trip, you said, you know, and at dinner, and it was not filmed.

And that comes out and you're like, oh, that's why those two women, you know, really had an issue. Or like when Kyle on Real House of Beverly Hills said to Garcell, you held up your paddle to pay a donation to my charity and you never paid. Well, that's something we didn't see happened on the show. So obviously, in my opinion, I think that the production knew that this was a volatile, awful situation that probably should have been handled

prior to this latest incident causing the girls who are now executive producers. The last report I read, it's them who said, we don't want to film with Taylor Frankie Paul anymore. That's the latest rumor I'm hearing. That's what caused them to stop filming. Not necessarily their moral high ground. And then they said, but we want them both to have psych evaluations.

Well, who's telling the truth? We're going to get more into that with an expert in my interview. So now I'm going to switch to something a little lighter. Okay. Demi had a crazy last year of her life because she went to the villa, also a show on Hulu, and Marciano was there. And they, according to him and coming on my show, spent six hours talking about intimate things in their life. They shared a kiss. And when she left, they both said, I love you. And they talked after that. And then he got involved with the other cast member named Jesse. That's why the show is juicy. Okay, but it can be funny too. And Demi is still with her husband, and all of a sudden, they just show them heading to a recording studio. And you're like, Heather, of course, they're starting a podcast. No, it's scarier than that. They did a duet. They sang a song. And she, because she refused to do interviews, there's no point where they normally would cut to an interview, and they would say, you know, tell me

why you thought it would be good for you and Jordan to become the next Sunny and Cher? We don't know why. We don't know if they're going to do cover bands. We don't know if they're going to do a Tom Sandoval thing. We don't know if they're going to be Sunny and Share. Or if they're going to be Donnie and Marie. We don't know. But they decided to work on a song that we could see.

Or if this was their audition for the mass singer, where they're singing true colors. You know your true colors are shining through. Cindy Lopper, it was her original song. And he's singing and she's like, you're a little flat. And he's like, that's why I love you. And don't be afraid for what it show. Your true colors, you're beautiful like a rainbow. It is, it was by far the highlight of a comedic moment of the show.

show when a lot of it that we're discussing is dark. But they're both attractive, both can't sing, let's go, let's do it, let's go see them like we did Tom Sandoval, Luanne. Every reality star can become a singer because there's enough of you that will go buy tickets and get drunk enough and think that they're good. And I love it. Okay. This is a juicy story that I want to tell you about Rebel Wilson, the actress Rebel Wilson, you may recall the story. She was in a legal battle with the producer of a movie named Amanda Ghost. And it was a very confusing weird story to follow in which there was another female cast member in which Rubble Wilson said, I believe that Amanda Ghost was inappropriate with this other female

cast member, then that female cast member was like, no, that's not true. And it was just like, what is this all about? Well, Hollywood Reporter has revealed that there has been leaked audio that reveals that Rebel Wilson's PR team plotted to smear movie producer as a sex trafficker. I have listened to the audio. And it is pretty shocking. So the PR agency is called the agency. groups. That's what I was saying the agency group. And the recording is that Nathan's the agency group, a top PR shop in the entertainment industry whose clients have included Drake and Johnny Depp, okay, has frequently worked with Friedman, Brian Friedman. He represents Justin Bell Doni, which is interesting, just that all these people work together. Okay.

deployed websites. This is what they, that's what is saying, featuring character assassinating claims about ghost. So what it says is you hear this guy saying, we can't just have it be that Amanda Ghost is, you know, whatever, difficult. We have to make it that her involvement with this billionaire is because she is. bringing women to him. So like the article said, creating a narrative that this woman, Amanda Ghost, who is a producer,

I really don't know what the background is, why she and Rebel Wilson really had rift in the beginning. That's a whole other thing that I have not overly studied. But this story is available by the Hollywood reporter. That she's a sex trafficker. And he's saying,

if we could get this out, if we could get some of the anonymous websites that cover this to then say it. I'm guessing he means like, you know, a type that is like crazy days and crazy nights, Des Moines, I'm not saying that they did it, but put this out there. Now, Crazy Days and Crazy Nights has been an anonymous website in which they basically say this housewife who's newly joined real, you know, the LA franchise of Real Housewives. Like they won't say it, but anyone with two brain cells puts it together. That's where Diana Jenkins, who was on one season, was why people thought that she was a trafficker of some sort. She, I believe, sued and won.

So this is how this stuff gets started. Also, on the Ladies of London, that's a storyline where they're accusing this woman who has since left the show after the first two episodes of also being a madam, which I said, it used to be fun to be called madam. Now everybody's just a sex trafficker and it's sad and wrong. So that's not even why she left the show, but she was accused of it. So it's crazy to hear this guy say, we need to create this story and put it out there that probably also meets any kind of anonymous type of sites where it's not a legit, you know, people article or whatever. the conversation was originally recorded in order to relay instructions from Wallace to the former TAG Vice President Katie Case, who was not on the call.

She was told to review a document detailing accusations the site ultimately alleged against the producer. In the recording obtained by the Hollywood reporter, the digital fixer, Jed Wallace, instructed a top entertainment publicist, Melissa Nathan, to assert, without evidence that the producer Amanda Ghost is a madam whose work involves procuring young women for wealthy and powerful men. Some of the quotes was, we just can't do like, oh, she's a bitch, she sucks. Wallace says in the recording, it's like got to be really, really heavy and connected to something that heavy. I listened to it. I am going to guess that the defense would be, I was saying it has to be something like she's such an awful person that she's a sex trafficker. I don't think that's going to help your case.

It's pretty creepy because in the report that I told you about before, there was accusations going around that maybe she was inappropriate this woman with a female cast member. So then that goes with the story that maybe she is a Gislein Maxwell type. It's very interesting and it's a lot to follow. But basically, these major power players from Brian Friedman, who represents Justin Baldoni, his case is, you know, that they both acclaimed that there were publicity smear canes made about each other. These smear campaigns happen. They work.

I don't think we ever thought they were coming from a legit PR firm. We thought, oh, these are just crazy content creators that are pulling things out of their ass and making up stuff and they shouldn't be taken seriously. But there's clearly a road to making it get out there. It's something that Blake lively claimed happened to her, that there was all this negative publicity about her, her behavior, whether she's difficult on set, whether she's not a nice person, interviews, this and that. It's not that hard to do in this day and age. you know, to sneak it to a blogger that writes for real house, that does real housewives content about another cast member.

That happened with several franchises in the last couple years. It gets out there, it gets people talking, it affects either a reality show, but in some cases it affects people's real life and livelihood, blatant lies, but to think that it's getting from a legit PR firm, which back in the day, PR firms were, we're going to get you on this talk show. We're going to get you on the cover of this magazine.

We're going to set you up with a reporter who's going to write a flattering article about your next movie. It's become really crazy and dark, and by using these different entities to get your story out there that didn't exist 30 years with content creators and with anonymous sites and with Reddit pages, that is the real story that I think is,

very shocking and disturbing. Rebel Wilson said she had no clue this was happening. She was not instructing it or asking for it, but it doesn't make her look good at all. This interesting story, Chelsea Handler says that RFK Jr. and Cheryl Hines left a $6 million dollar L.A. Mansion unlivable. I saw the clip. She was doing her show or an interview, and she is talking about him. She's not a fan of RFK Jr's politics or his style. And she mentions that she bought the house five years ago and she hasn't been able to move in because it's so unlivable. Well, you're thinking, how could that happen?

Well, I read the article and she said, we did it through two different trusts so that it wouldn't be an article on TMZ that she bought the house. this way also have their privacy and someone doesn't know that you own it. However, I don't know why she didn't get proper inspections. As a former realtor grew up in real estate, home inspections are very, very important. Now, oftentimes when you watch, you know, million dollar listing and selling sunset, people are like, all cash, waive all inspections. Okay, sometimes that happens. You waive the inspections. It's a very risky thing to do because you don't know if the house has mold,

whatever. She says it doesn't even have foundation. You know, she's also just being funny, but still, the house was built originally in 1937. They did not build it, build it. They are not the original owners. They probably lived there for a handful of years and moved on. This is why you have to get your proper things. I actually went house hunting with Chelsea back in the day, and she wanted to buy a house that I said, I don't think you should buy it for a safety reason. and it just makes sense when I think about how she is sometimes maybe putting her opinion in someone else, like giving them the power to do it. I have a whole thing.

I'll talk more about it on Patreon, why this happens in L.A. with Stars when they allow their financial people to make the decisions for them. But the point is find a good home inspector and be there for the inspection and have them walk you around and actually show you what they think is a concern or not. Don't leave it all up to your staff when you're spending $6 million on a house. Hope that she knocks it down and makes a beautiful house. Okay. Speaking of more legal stuff, Leah McSweeney, this was from last week, her case against Bravo with Annie Cohen will be heard in public. So they wanted to keep it to be under arbitration, which is probably part of their contract. If there's any disputes, we go into arbitration,

means it's behind closed doors, the judge has said no. This is a very interesting case. This is her claiming that Bravo kind of fucked with her sobriety, encouraged alcoholism, and a lot of, you know, that she would go back to drinking. Also based on Ultimate Girls' trip, there was, I remember there was one little moment where Heather Gay joked and said, oh my God, we should get you drunk then or something. Again, you don't, you can't really sue for what another cast member says, but apparently she feels she has evidence to prove that she deserves a big payout. They are not settling.

She hasn't really worked since. She hadn't worked before. Real House was Beverly Hills. She had a clothing line in which she started after she got in a situation with the NYPD where she was drunk and unruly, allegedly, this story, I remember, and she was tackled her. I mean, she was, tackled her something in the arrest and was able to sue and get a big payout. So that worked in her favor. And once again, she believed she has been wronged here. So the fact that this could maybe be an actual trial that we kind of walk through and see would be obviously extremely juicy. Also, below deck alum, Amil Coetze is suing below deck and the production company and Bravo for a mere. $850 million.

He's saying that based on what was said about him on the show, that he was made to look horrible, that he has been defamed. And therefore, usually you come up with the lawsuit amount of money based on what you lost by no longer being on the show

and what you'd lose in future earnings. Well, being that he was a guy who worked on a yacht, I don't know how a future of his whatever out up to $850 million, but some lawyers chosen to take it. They're probably just hoping again that there would be a payout. But you put yourself on these shows, and I know that these contracts are very clear in that people can say stuff about you.

You can't sue for defamation. You can't sue your cast members. You're also working on the show. It's just a very reality TV is why, you know, remember the reality reckoning and that was all going to come crumbling. now, well, it hasn't yet. Somehow people are still signing up to do it and to watch it and like me, talk about it on a podcast. So it's not going away, but you just have to know once you go on the show, you don't have final edit, you don't have a say in what people say or do about you.

And I don't know of any case where someone has really won when they've gone for it. So it'll be interesting to see if one of them does prevail. And then, that doesn't mean a settlement. That means like you went to court and was awarded something. So that's different. When West Jet first took flight in 1996, the vibes were a bit different. People thought denim on denim was peak fashion. Inline skates were everywhere. And two out of three women rocked, the Rachel. While those things stayed in the 90s, one thing that hasn't is that fuzzy feeling you get when WestJet welcomes you on board. Here's to WestJetting since 96. Travel back in time with us and actually travel with us at westjet.com slash 30 years.

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The comeback. Lisa Kudrow, my former teacher at the Groundlings, born and raised, right in the valley, in Tarzana next door to me, went to Taftai. I love her so much and I'm so excited for this. This is my umpteenth request to have Lisa Kudrow, please come on Juicy Scoop. I would love to interview you. This is hands down my favorite show. I can't believe it's coming back yet again. And it's airing on HBO Max on March 22nd, and I'm just so excited. Nothing brings me more joy than this show. Kylie is on top is the title of the Vanity Fair cover, and it's Kylie, and she looks amazing.

You know, she's doing the power move that started about eight years ago where women just, like, spread their legs like this, like a big, a big crotch spread, which is the opposite of crossing your legs, just like very much. And she's wearing, like, acute equestrian. outfit. It's a great cover. They've lightened her brows, which is always like a weird, unique look, but it looks going on her. And she's smoking. And I just want to say, somebody, please find the episode where I said, smoking is going to come back in. That's going to be the cool thing to do. That's going to be the sign of luxury. Like, yeah, I can afford a $10

pack of cigarettes. And I don't give a fuck that it's going to hurt my health and get my teeth yellow and age my face because I could afford plastic surgery after. And I don't, I'm not going to vape like some loser on the corner. I'm going to actually smoke a cigarette and look like a fucking badass that lived a life of previous decades that we all yearned for. So I told you what's going to happen. It's fucking going to happen. No, I don't endorse it.

No, I don't like it. But this was a direct move. Grab a cigarette. Everyone lost their minds when Doreet smoked. It's something about like, I don't. it's the ultimate, I don't give a fuck. We know that it's caused lung cancer and horrible disease and empathy. We used to have to watch a commercial where the lady had a hole in her neck and he'd be like,

I want to tell you kids not to smoke. Doesn't matter. We forget everything. Everything, including that smoking kills, even though it's sexy and it keeps you skinny. All right, you guys, I'm very excited to have you guys listen to this great interview. we get into so many juicy things. Let's just get right into it. But remember to go to Patreon where that's where the real juicy shit happens. And that is at hathermcdolland.net and a brand new episode this Friday. As always, commercial

free. You can listen to all the back episodes if you have yet to have joined. Don't miss out. Change your life and everyone loves it. So here we go. Okay, now I am very excited to have a return guest and author, a reporter, a reporter, a mom. mom. She's been on Juicy Scoot before. For Tessa Latifie, who has a new book coming out that you can pre-order right now, call Like, Follow, and Subscribe. And what a perfect person to be talking about since we're coming off the topic of Taylor, Frankie, Paul, and her controversy right now with Secret Lives of Mormon wives and The Bachelorette and the accusations of domestic violence and child abuse. So with all that being said, welcome back. Thank you for having me. Glad to be here.

So for Tessa, I mean, what are your thoughts when you saw what happened in the last, you know, 48 hours? Yeah. I mean, it was really harrowing. I think obviously this is not the first time that Taylor Frankie Paul has been accused of domestic violence. But I think, you know, you can look at one time and think maybe it was a one-off. Maybe it was like a strange thing. that happened and they obviously seemed to be in a pretty toxic relationship. But for something to come up a second time is really difficult and especially when it seems like the children were involved. I mean, the first time in the police report, you can read that she threw a chair at Dakota, her boyfriend, and it hit her daughter. And this time it seems that it's alleged that their son, their young son ever, who's a toddler, was in the room while they were having this experience.

And so that's, that's really troubling. Also, someone else cut a, showed a clip from the actual show of Secret Lives of Born Wives in which Demi, who's no longer really part of the show, she refused to do interviews this season. She's having it out with Taylor among the other girls in season four. And she says, when are you going to stop? And, you know, yeah, why don't I ask Dakota, why don't you stop with him? And I think now that in light of things,

It sounds like, you know, men can be physically abused. There's an incredible documentary out about this man, I believe he was in England, that was like physically abused by his wife for years. And he, like, recorded it. And it's, you know, because people don't think it can happen. I'm not saying that is her. And it's just very interesting. And everyone can chime in because we've all watched her for years.

on social media where many people fell in love with her and on the show for these last few years. And the comments on a video I did where I just kind of asked, what should we do? Should they still film? Should they still air the Bachelorette? And I didn't even post a question on that video, but I think the biggest question is, if this was a man, you know, would we be featuring him as the Bachelor? And in the comments of my video, someone said, he knew how to set her off. And I'm like, whoa, would you ever, in 2026 tell a female who is a victim of a domestic violence situation, you knew how to push his buttons.

No, that feels like victim blaming. You knew to bring up the fact that he hadn't a job in six months and therefore you deserve to be hit. Like, what do you mean press someone's buttons? No one, no matter what someone says to you, you shouldn't put your hair. on them, especially in 2026, whether you're, you know, a 6-5 man or a 5-200-pound girl. Like, it's, so more and more is coming out. And I guess this fight happened now, like February 24th or something. Yeah.

And so, so again, the fans of Taylor are saying, well, he's choosing to go forward with this account or whatever now and share his story because he's so. jealous that she's coming out with The Bachelor. And I'm like, and then the other part is we know that now that she picked some guy named Doug and that clearly she didn't last with Doug because she went back with Dakota and then probably thought he was cheating or something. I mean, pretty ironic that you're mad at someone for cheating when you went and dated 30 men prior to that. Yeah. But it's it's all ugly. And then it all comes to the kids. And, you know, in this particular show. Everybody has a fresh baby for us to

ugle at and they're all adorable. Yeah, of course. I mean, they're babies. They're perfect babies and they're all attractive people and some of the couples have great partners who are the dads who are like very supportive like Whitney's husband. But I mean, what do you think about that? That's truly the Truman show and that these kids from the moment they're born. I mean, it happened with Mason on the Kardashians and he's kind of. really doesn't want to be in the camera as much anymore.

From the moment you're born, you're on TV. Or, you know, I think about the kids from teen mom. You know, I'm 32 and I grew up with teen mom and 16 and pregnant. And those kids were, their births were literally taped. And, you know, Mason's birth on keeping up with the Kardashians was literally taped. And so these kids are just in the spotlight from the very beginning. And I do think it's fascinating, especially on Mormon wives, where they're having these really adult conversations around. older kids who can understand it.

I mean, if it's a baby, obviously a baby doesn't get it. Like, you can talk about whatever in front of a newborn baby, but there's this scene where Taylor and her mom are talking about her toxic relationship with Dakota in front of her older children. And I'm just like, it's just strange. And for the camera to be there and to be capturing every moment of your mother's toxic relationships, I can't imagine how that must feel. I also feel in this day and age it's such a hamster wheel because, and you talk about this in your book,

because one of the people that you interviewed that's making $500,000 a year doing what she's doing, is like, she's like, if I could not be on the internet, I wouldn't be. But it is how I make $500,000 a year. She was a Christian girl who, you know, got married young, had a baby 18, and just had a nap. for putting out content that was, you know, she knew how to edit it and people liked it and all this. Of course, she has her haters too. But like, what is she going to do now? Is she going to, you know, throw it away and go to nursing school, which is incredibly difficult and it's not going to make her $500,000 a year?

So I get. And now all the guys, they don't have their jobs anymore because they had to step in as the dads. So they were trying to make this stupid dad talk work. Nobody wants dad. Talk. Stop trying to make dad talk happen. I literally, can I tell you that I fast forward through the dad talk scenes? I don't care. Also, they're like making fun of the women and they feel resentful towards them. They're so resentful. riding their coattails. And it's just like gross. I'm just like the only one who I think is a truly supportive husband is Connor as Whitney's husband. When she's crying about like, I feel like I'm not around for the kids, blah, blah, and he tells her, I've got you. Like, I've got them. Like, don't worry. Like this is a big moment in your career. And when you. And when you. look at what Jen's relationship where her husband is telling her like, why aren't you home more? Why aren't you doing this? And it's like, but you're, but you don't have a job. She's the breadwinner. So what do you want her to do? When I saw that with a Jen and Zach, I felt the immediate anxiety of

codependency that you would feel having a great moment and looking over and seeing that your man is like annoyed that you're getting the attention and he is not. And how now you have to manage that along on being a delight. You know, these girls, which is just fascinating when I saw Jen have the stylist come, you know, with all the clothes lined up, you know, which she needs. And it's like, I've done that. I've had a press tour and all that kind of stuff. I didn't have a stylist. I did my own thing. But it is very overwhelming. She's, for a normal person in Hollywood,

this would have been many years to get to a level of a stylist comes over to make sure that you have something for the Emmys and the this and then that. I mean, that's 15, 20 years. Like, from the time that you were taking acting classes to then you got the five and under spot. Then you got the sitcoms. Now you're, you know,

you did the groundlings. Now you're Lisa Codrell. You're 30 years old. You're finally on friends. like that's that's the trajectory that my generation knew this is you know you have you have a hot spot on TikTok because you admit to being a swinger and literally three and a half years later you're the star at the Emmys or the Oscars yeah right which can all be taken from you like with you know Frankie Taylor Paul and I mean right time we can mix everybody Taylor Frankie Paul and as we and it's a great name, by the way. It is, yeah.

TFP, but she's on the Today Show. You know, they clearly want us to watch this. They are not, there's, as of now, there's no talk of not airing it. I think it's incredible that when you look at people that have had TV shows for years, like some of the Vanderpump stars and things like that, that they found a tweet that they wrote when they're, were 15 and it was instant firing, you're losing a tour, da-da-da-da, this is over with. You said a dumb thing on an Instagram.

You sang a song that was caught on video that had the N-word in it and you said it. You're done. Like losing guilt. And this, I'm just kind of like, it is shocking. And it, I don't know if it's the state of how bad Hollywood is as far as financial and morality and everything else. but listen, am I curious to watch it? Yeah. I mean, I haven't watched The Bachelorette in a few seasons.

And I actually was on it years ago. And so I was going to watch it, at least skim through her to look for the highlights. With this, even though we know she ends up with the Coda and what goes on, I think people would watch it because they're like, who is this chick? So I can see, I just can't imagine what are the calls and. is happening with all these executives. Yeah. And can they just make us forget the way they do? People forget.

People forget, but I also think that, like, there are sponsors pulling out, like Cinebun pulled out of the Bachelorette as a sponsor. Oh, I didn't realize Cinneman pulled out of the show. I just thought she had a deal with cinnamon. No, no. It was from the show. Yeah. So I think if it affects their bottom line, they might have to think about it a little bit differently. because I think this is all a financial decision, right?

Like they're deciding, is the money we sink into the show worth, you know, going forward or worth scrapping it? But if they're going to lose future advertisers, like, maybe it's not worth. I mean, the thing is, is that, you know, what are you going to put in an old season of some ABC sitcom? Like, this is still traditional TV. It has a time on an actual night. So it's like, if something goes to happen with my show, I'm like, okay, let me scramble. and, you know, let me do something else, and it's me. But you're not, if they don't air it, they're essentially losing whatever, 20 hours or how many episodes they are.

Totally. That's set in the schedule of traditional TV. And I think that's why they're not automatically saying, hey, we're not going to air this. And it's one thing for the production on the other show, Secret Lives, to stop because they're just filming it. So they can tell everybody you're going to take a two-eastern. week break. They probably won't pay them either, but, you know, poor staff. Yeah. And I, and then, so what do you think should happen as someone who has really studied this with your book, which is all about the whole world of family vlogging and mommy influencers and also Mormons being

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So no matter what day of the week, Go's got you covered. Find out more at go-transit.com slash tickets. I think everyone honestly has to make their decision about whether they're comfortable watching this on their own. And I think I was looking at The Bachelor subreddit last night and there were just thousands of comments of people being like, this is the first season that I will not watch. And people really were taking this seriously because I think part of Taylor Frankie Paul's allure is that she's like this messy kind of girl and like she's always kind of making mistakes and she's like owning up to it or whatever. But then this is different, you know, like alleged domestic violence and alleged child to be. like that's not messy like that's just terrible you know so i don't think people want to see it and it's like interesting because i wanted to watch her season i was really interested and i also haven't

watched the bachelorette in years because i think it's just like a waning show but once i saw that like she ends up back with dakota and she ends up in this terrible situation it's like why do i want to watch her get there like it it just takes the wind out of the sales of the whole thing because the promise of the bachelorette is you're like watching some people fall in love but if you know that she's going to go back to her ex-boyfriend, then it's like, well, what's the point of watching? And also, you know, we've had parents on the show before on The Bachelorette and The Bachelor, where a guy has a kid or whatever. And part of it is, oh, you know, by the seventh, you know, episode, the little girl can come on the Disney trip with them or whatever. But other than that, they're not seeing their kids.

Now, there are people that don't see their kids for months because they're on a movie. set or they're fighting a war or it's the dad. So I don't want to like parent shame her. And I don't know that in her case, maybe they had an Airbnb down the street with grandma and the three kids the whole time and she could visit them all the time. So we don't know what that situation is. But at this point, as she's doing the press and everything, and she's like, my kids come first. I'm like, okay, if they come, if you're saying they come first because this is how I make my money now, is to film and be on The Bachelor or everything.

But when you just think about like, you have two, you know, two baby daddies, three kids, you have a swinging scandal, you have, you already were arrested before, you have this volatile relationship with this guy. I mean, if it wasn't about money and a career, you could not think of a worse opportunity for her. Anything could have been better. Mass singer, dancing with the stars like the two other girls did.

Anything could have been better than, and I feel like when she was offered it, if someone was around her, that it would go, hold out for Dancing with the Stars. Maybe go on, whatever, something else if you need it, but you probably don't. Like, it just was like the worst thing that you could do. Like, really? You need to go now date 30 more. guys. I'm sorry. People are going to be mad that I said it. But like, I'm sure most girls that are watching this, especially ones that have young kids, are like, we all, yeah, we all deserve to find love. But also, I know a lot of single moms that take off significant time between relationships and don't date at all. And then what, you bring this man home that they don't know at all? And you're like, this is my new fiance. Like, did you watch Love is Blind

this season? Um, just parts of. of it. But you go ahead, talk about it. Yeah, there was a mom. There was a single mom named Amber on the show. And I loved her as a character. I loved her as a person. But like, it was so troubling to me. Like when they showed up to the wedding and her daughter, who I think was around like eight had just met the like future husband like the day before. And then the daughter like looked really uncomfortable with like the filming and was kind of like, which like duh, it's really overwhelming. But like I was watching that and I was like, Amber, girl, you deserve love, et cetera, et cetera. But like,

this is not a good choice. Like I, maybe a hot take and like people won't like it, but I don't think that single parents should be on dating shows because then what? You come home and you introduce this guy and you're like, you don't know him, but he's your new stepdad, you know? And then this couple divorced, they got married on the show and then they divorced a few months later. And in the reunion, she's crying about how her daughter took the divorce. And it's like, I really feel for them, but I'm also like, this was almost like bound to happen. Like, I don't understand, like, bringing in a random guy into your daughter's life. I mean, how can an eight-year-old understand their eight?

This is your new daddy. Oh, good. Now I have a dad. And now he's gone. Is he gone because of me? Right. Now my mommy's crying. Did I do anything wrong?

Was he not cut out to be a dad? I mean, those must be the thoughts. And talk to anybody who's an adult now that had multiple step parents. and it's a different childhood than someone that didn't. That didn't just or they just, it's different than someone who had a solid single parent. It's different than someone who had, you know, gay parents. It's different than someone who had a traditional family, you know, per se. It's, they go through stuff that if you did not go through that as a kid,

you don't understand that feeling of abandonment and did I do something wrong. And it's not to say that single. parents don't deserve love, obviously they do. But like, I think part of being a parent is putting your child first and saying it's not the time right now or this is not the right way to do it to just show up at home with this new fiance. Yes, I totally agree. Let's get into some of your book because it's really fascinating. I know you've worked on it for a long time. You've done so many interviews. And one of the things that I thought was the juiciest is that you found from numerous parent influencers, mom influencers, said the videos that always did the best, meaning they got

the most views immediately were being shared, watched through the entirety, was when it featured their children being sick, sick, injured, or sad. Yeah. Wow. I know. I know. I mean, for me, I've had that instinct for a few years that this was true, but for them to know it consciously and to admit it to me.

me and to tell me about it, I think it really changed my understanding of what's going through their mind when they recorded. Yeah. And I always remember that one video where the girl got caught. She was filming with her son and it was that the dog had died. The dog had like parvo. I don't have dogs so I don't know. But it's like a disease, a like fatal disease that young puppies get.

And she was telling the son that like the dog might die. she's he's crying on her shoulder like legitimately crying. I think he was like around eight years old. And then she's saying and she accidentally uploaded this to YouTube instead of editing it. And she's saying, no, no, turn your face so they can see your tears and cry this way. And he's like, mom, I am crying. Like you don't have to tell me to cry. I am crying. And she's just like coaching him on which way to turn his face to that they see the tears. And it's just like, I don't know. There are a lot of things that I can like empathize with. Like as a parent, I wouldn't make those choices. but I can understand being in a different position in my life and choosing those things.

But to coach your kid when they're already devastated and crying and to tape it and to post it, I mean, I don't understand. Like, can you understand that? What are your thoughts on it? I just think that with this younger generation who are parents, they were raised themselves being into social media. So they start doing it and they like the views, even if they're not making money from it. They like that it's getting attention.

And it just becomes natural, just like if you were to tell your kid 30 years ago, they're 12, but they're still going to work at the ice cream shop that the family owns. Sure. Like you still have to show up on Saturday and stock the cones or what. whatever it is. And technically, yeah, he's 12. He probably should have been doing that. When my parents were realtors, I had to drop off these notepads at every house and I had to deliver pumpkins and we had to stuff envelopes and I had to try to get them listings. And so I do get it. But it's about the weird exposure and the emotionalness of it all. And the illness too that with the other crazy story was that family, and you talked about this as well, that put one of their

daughters on the thumbnail. And I know how thumbnails work because we do YouTube for my show as well. And but you don't want to be dishonest about what the thing is, you know, like I wouldn't put, you know, whatever, something that's not the guess, you know, like, like, let's say for this, I put, I'm talking to, I got an exclusive with Taylor Frankie Paul. Well, I didn't get exclusive. if we talked about her, you know. But this one was even worse. They did the little girl and it said whatever name was Posey or what was her name? Yeah, Posey, yeah.

Posey has cancer story or something. Yeah, she has cancer documentary. Yeah. And so people are like, oh my God, now they're invested. They've watched this little girl. They think this family's cute. And she didn't have cancer. And then the video switches to some other little girl that has.

has cancer and at the end you could do a go fund me. And I think what happened to that vlogging family? Because I know there was a lot of backlash over that. There was a ton of backlash. I mean, people were like, you basically clickbaited us into thinking that your daughter has cancer. Like, what, what are you thinking? And they had had a lot of like clickbaity titles in the past, but nothing so explicit. And to clickbait with like a child's potential cancer diagnosis is just like kind of beyond the pale. So there was a ton of backlash. And I think they've started doing less personal content because of that, but they're still one of the biggest family vlogging families out there. So I think when it comes to backlash, the bigger you are, the more you're able to withstand it,

you know, like it kind of bounces off you, whereas that woman who posted the video of her son crying where she's encouraging him to cry, she only had 500,000 YouTube subscribers, so she wasn't able to bounce back. But the LeBrant family who did the She has cancer, they have, I don't know, over 8 million, I want to say, YouTube subscribers, so they're able to bounce back. You know, I remember, but before I forget, I want to make sure that before I talk, go off of this tangents, that's my head, so much going through is I also want to talk about how a person described in your book, why family vlogging is popular. And that was, so just hold that thought real quick. But I do want to say, it reminded me of, remember the woman who got, who claimed that she was being followed around. by what she believed were kidnappers at the Michaels in Northern California.

Petaluma. And I remember where I was when the video popped up and what she said. And I remember, I don't mean to pat myself on the back, but I literally said to the person that was working from at the time, I think this is fake. I think this girl is trying to get views. It was in her car. She acted like she was panicked.

We later found out. She filmed that after she came home, thought about it, went into the car and filmed it. Later on, it became a case. This poor family, they were grandparents. They weren't doing anything wrong. The whole thing was made up. But there was a panicked time of where, you know, and people are, kids are getting stolen in traffic. But it was a time where, oh, my God, you know.

So it got a lot of views, beware, all this other stuff. really damaged that couple's life and they were completely innocent. And again, like, the same thing of, I want my kid to be feeling sad or hurt gets a lot of views. It's why adults, we've joked about, they're about to cry. And they're like, let me fill myself crying because they, those, get viewed because you're scrolling and you see someone you follow or even someone crying. And you're like, my God, what do they cry about? So now you're, and now you're, and, and you're, and, you're, and, And it's like there's no other time where, you know, that's what people would do in their privacy. And now it's like, oh, my God, this will get you views, your vulnerability to show that you're crying, you know?

Yeah. It's crazy. And so now I wanted to mention that, the going in the car, because, you know, I made a funny video the other day of how, like, you have to eat or do contouring your nose or go in the car or walk or even act like you're driving. That always works well. Like something about it works better than you just talking to the camera. Like last night when I did the thing about my take on Taylor and asking people what they think, I'm like, I'm just going to talk to the camera. I know it's not going to get as many views if I was like, and you know what? I'll tell you something else, you know.

But why do you think that is? I don't know. I'm always like this makes me nervous. Why are you driving? Yes. But I think it's something. I think it's because they worked out the, they know that the algorithm, whatever works better. if you're doing makeup, eating, even walking in your neighborhood, something about it.

And so it's like just like your influencers that you followed said, I realized. So I think once you realize it, you're like, well, why would I go back to anything else? So the kid who's crying is sad. Nobody invited him to the birthday party. I mean, that's another thing. When people do that, when they're like in the car, like they just got, dropped the kid off the, and I was like, let me tell you something. All these moms are so mean. They don't invite me to anything. And my kid wasn't invited to the birthday party. I'm like, what do you think those moms are going to do now? Like, is this going to help? They're all going to share it with each other. And they're going to be like, we don't want to fuck with you. Essentially, that's what happened with the stars with the Hillary Duff thing where Hillary Duff said, oh, wrote the thing about toxic moms. And everybody's like, we're certainly not going to invite you now. Like, you don't need to, like, we know who you are.

Yeah. We know you're at our school. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's also really sad about when people say, like, my kid wasn't invited to anyone's house or they have no friends. Like, why would you do that? And then, and then, but then I think that's a lure, too, because then people are like, that's it. Where's the go fund me? I'm going to send your kid to Disneyland.

It's so bleak. it's so bleak and I think it's like taking those things that you're worried about for your kid, like we all have those, right? Like, oh, I feel like my kid isn't as socially adept as other kids or they're not invited to things or whatever. But then taking it online, like, that's not going to make it better. Like especially when the kids are older, like those kids, their peers can find it online and then they're going to be like, ha ha, Jimmy, your mom's talking about how you don't have friends. You know what I mean? Like, it's not going to help. No, it's not. And the other thing in your book that I thought was interesting that I talked about before is why do people like

are attracted to following these families? Because I don't follow any family vloggers. It doesn't interest me. My kids are older. It doesn't interest me. I don't want to see it. But what your expert said was it's like when you would go to someone's house for the first time for a sleepover, which now no one has sleepovers either. And no one's going to each other's houses because even if you played video games, it used to be kids 15 years ago had to sit next to. And you know, to each other to play video games? Well, now they don't. So they really don't have to go to anyone's houses and everyone's like, don't go to another person's house because they'll molest you. But when you'd go to someone else's house and you'd see, like, did, oh, they, I love

that they do this. Or, oh, my God, you guys are just going to, like, I remember that I went to this lady's house and she had like seven kids and they had a nice house. And she came down and was like, can you guys be quiet? And she was always in like her pajamas. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. Like, that's interesting. You know, like, We had fun and they're like, okay, you know, like, and that's, but also in our generation, people went to other people's houses. So I thought that was really kind of crazy, like, getting that eye in someone else's house. Yeah, the way that we think about other families is it's just fascinating, right? It's the same reason that like keeping up with the Kardashians or teen mom or,

you know, John and Kate Plus Aid or the Duggers, like all of those things. Like, it's so fascinating to see how other families live their lives. Like, especially when there's some kind of hook, when there's like a ton of kids or when they're religious or when they homeschool or that kind of thing. It's like, wait, people live like this? And why when you talk about religious, you did a whole chapter of your book of how the Mormons have really excelled in influencing and can you explain what you found? So there of the U.S. population, only 2% identify as Mormon or from the Church of Latter-day Saints. But if you compare that to the amount of influencers that are Mormon, it's like astronomical. Like I would say most of the most famous family vloggers and mom influencers are Mormon or Mormon adjacent.

But it's not surprising when you look at the religion. And there are a few different reasons for that. But one is that they are encouraged to have kids really young and have a lot of kids. We know that does really well for the algorithm. The algorithm loves babies. We also know that the Mormon church says that being beautiful is godly. And so presenting yourself in a beautiful manner is a way to be closer to God. And not only that, but they have this thing called the prosperity doctrine, where basically

the idea is that the more godly you are, the more likely you are to prosper financially. And so you have this religion where young women are told to be beautiful, to have kids really young, and that making money is a sign of godliness. And it's like, well, of course they're perfect influencers. and they're always, their journaling is a really big thing in the Mormon church. And so young women especially are taught to journal from a very young age and keep very detailed records. And so it's like, what is influencing, if not journaling out, you know, out loud? And it's like, it's also Mormonism is a very patriarchal religion.

And so they're not meant to work outside the house, but this is kind of a loophole of like you're working inside the house, but you're also working outside the house. Right. The same reason MLMs strive to do so well. Yeah. Yeah. I do think it's interesting in watching the Secret Lives of Moran Wyes because they all have these hair extensions.

Yeah. And I'm like, wait a minute. Are you telling me not one girl could like naturally grow her hair that long? Like it's this excessive amount. Like I'm guessing you guys without the extension could still have beautiful hair. Yeah. And I'm not against extensions.

I just think it's interesting that every single one feels the need to have that and lip filler and be really thin. You know, and so I did not know about the beauty being a part of godliness. And I think that is so interesting because it's like in Catholicism, it's like vanity is sin. Yeah. That's not good. Yeah. So it's like you get too much. It's almost like, oh, my God.

You know, my mom would always be like, that woman's a saint. And she'd look like seven kids. She'd be like, you know, cleaning out the vestibule and like doing all the things at the church. And like, no, that woman was not put together. You know, it was, it's just so. I find that fascinating. Another thing I wanted to talk about is you said, oh, I wanted to know art. Did you find if when the kid is on a big YouTube and stuff and they're of elementary age or middle school, does that make them more popular in the school?

Yeah, it's really complicated because some of the kids that I talk to told me people are really interested in my YouTube fame. But once they realize that I won't put them on my channel, then they kind of turn away from it. And then I'm a bit of a pariah because the thing is like kids are the same as us. they want that clout. And if it's a family channel and you're not going to bring friends on it, then it's like not as interesting. But I think it's also difficult because I talked to a few years ago, a young woman who her mom, and this is not uncommon. People are like always mind blown. But her mom made a sponsored post out of her first menstrual cycle. And then she had to go to middle school and people were like, ha, ha, we know you got your period. And that's like terrible. Like, what?

That is crazy. I remember that story. Like, that. is so crazy. And I also think like, you know, my, my sister was successful child actor doing commercials, just commercials. So she never left the school, but she'd be taken out for one day or whatever. And that's back when, you know, there was only whatever, five channels and people would see her commercial, bold three and a couple other things. And it was a big talk at the school. And she was like kind of being bullied. And but in that, case, she couldn't put them on TV. Yeah. Right. So like, I get why, well, and I wonder if like other mothers want to be friends with that mother too. Like, well, maybe I should be doing this as well. I know from real housewives

that I'm friendly with and have interviewed, they get to a place where they don't know if a new female friend is truly interested in being their friend or they're vying to get on the show somehow. Totally. And not just to attend the party with the cameras. Like, get on the show. And then they, you know, and sometimes they definitely don't want that so they don't make like any other friends for years. Or they do want it and then the friend turns on them and then they're like, well, I'm never doing that again, you know. Right. Right. Yeah. I think it's really difficult as a kid in general to make friends, let alone being like, oh, I'm this huge famous YouTuber and do people want to be my friend because they want to like clout chase off of me or because they think I can make them famous or do they genuinely want to be my friend? Yeah. Now, you said also, in the book, which I thought was really interesting, is, you know, most people, and like I was

constantly talking about, you know, well, with the Coogan law, there's laws where you're supposed to definitely give, pay, put your kids money when they're on a TV show into an account. I've also said it's a very hard thing to keep track of. A check comes in for $800. The family easily can cash it and keep for themselves. Now the kid is 30. Yeah, they're really going to track back 15 years. Where's my $800? So it is. It is. It is. It is. It is. You can't. It, you can't, is a law, but, you know, I know there's a couple of states now that are trying to do that for the money that an influencer makes for their kid, if they're all doing a ad together. So we've talked about that, but what you said was it's really about them being bribed with something else to do the

act that they need to get the scene done. Yeah. So I talked to a few different family influencers for this chapter who told me that their worry is not that kids are not getting paid, but it's that they're getting paid in the form of bribes. And so these laws really don't touch that because if you're, if you're still paying your child, like you're technically abiding by the law, but if it's bribery where like one of the family bloggers in my book told me, I used to give my kids $1,000 each for a 30 second video. Because, you know, if you're making tens of thousands of dollars off the video or more, then it's like, what's $1,000, you know, a few times?

Like, it's not a big deal. But it's like that I thought was really interesting because advocates really talk about we need to make sure these kids are paid. But what this family blogger told me is they are getting paid, but it's bribery. And so then where does that leave us? Well, they don't have free will. And it's like there were laws, you know, made in the early 1900 or whatever it was in the Industrial Revolution time where they said kids couldn't work in the factories. You know, that's when child labor laws. But entertainment has always been the one place that kids can work. Because on actors and on set.

and all these other things. And now this. So my point is, they don't have the same right to say, no, I don't want to work today and I'm a child and you can't make me, Mom. I don't want to dance around and do the video. It's also really complicated because I think it's difficult as a child to go against your parents in any way, you know? And so let's say your parent is an influencer parent and they love the work that you do. do and you realize that you're making a lot of money and you live in a beautiful house and they have a beautiful car. And like one of the young women that I talked to, Claire, she told me that she told

her dad once, I don't want to do YouTube anymore. And he said, okay, that's fine, but we're going to have to move out of our house. Mom and I are going to have to go back to work and there's going to be no money left over for nice things. And so it's like, are you really listening to your kid when they're telling you that or are you guilting that? That's what I'm saying. It's a truly a hamster wheel. because now, well, you know, what are we going to do? Like we're in, so it's like, I mean, it's just such a slippery slope. I mean, what, what, how has people's views been affected of the few moms that have said, I'm going to honor this situation.

I'm going to give my child some privacy. I'm not going to feature them getting their first period or when they have the or even their birthday party? Like what happens to that person? Do they still make money? So it depends. If they're a huge creator, they oftentimes can withstand that and kind of like change their content.

But they're not making as much money because I talk in the book about these, these creators who don't show their kids, they'll apply for brand deals. And the brand deals will be like, okay, but you have to put your kids in diapers and show, you know, this new diaper or whatever. And the creator's like, I'm not doing that. and, you know, the brand passes because they want the child to be in it because we know that content with children does better. And so sometimes they can continue their career, but they're definitely not making as much money as they would, maybe even by half as they would if they still showed their kids.

Right. And then I wonder if there's a moment where that woman turns around. We thought Mommy Dearest was bad, you know, that movie. But, you know, at least the kid didn't. There was a scene in Mommy Dearest that's like, we were supposed to feel. sorry for the girl because they were taking one professional photo as a family. Yeah. I mean, she was being mean to her and she was physically abusing her and everything. But when you compare it to what a modern day mommy dearest movie could be, which I'm sure someone's working on it.

Yeah. You know, about an inflores. Like, even if someone did try to do the right thing. And then the kid is being a bratty kid, like we all have kids that are ungrateful and they don't get it because they're little. And you're like, you little shit. Yeah. could have been making twice this amount, but no, I tried to respect your privacy and now

you are not even doing well in school. So you're not going to get a regular job anyway because you're a dumb ass. Like you don't know like what someone could say to their kid. I'm done. No, it's so true. And I think about that like how difficult it would be to get a child to do what you want them to do. I mean, like my daughter's a toddler, but you see this content of other toddlers on Instagram and they're perfectly posed and their hair is perfect. and their matching outfit. And like this morning, my daughter went to the park in a pajama shirt because she didn't want to change.

And I was just like, okay, whatever, it doesn't really matter. Like it's a shirt. It doesn't really matter. But like if I were a mom influencer, how would I convince her, you know, or how would I make her do what I needed her to do? But at that age, you know, that's them asserting themselves. And if you constantly deny them, you know, wearing cowboy boots to school or, you know, my sons,

it was always the biggest thing is we don't need a jacket, We don't need a jacket. Yes. We don't need a jacket. And I'd be like, all right. And then I would just pack the jackets. And then when they're shivering, I'd be like, guess what? I actually have a jacket for you.

Okay, thank you. But I get it. It's because, you know, they're growing up and they're like, you don't know everything, mom. It's sunny now. And I'm like, I know it's sunny now. But we're going to be out for five hours. Yeah, guess what? It's going to be like, and I will be like, I've lived on this life, on this earth a little longer than you.

Yeah. I'm going to start using that. But they won't. No, they won't. I mean, this morning I was just like, you cannot go to the park in a pajama shirt. And then I was like, who really cares? But I do think about, like, if I had to put her in a perfect outfit and get her hair done and do whatever and have her pose perfectly, like, what would that look like? How could I get a toddler to do that?

I mean, it's just like the toddlers and Tierra's days, those shows. And they had to put them all in. And the girl just goes, I just want to swim in like the days in pool. And they're like, well, you can't because we, you have hair extensions and a flipper in your mouth. And, you know, we don't want you getting your makeup removed. Yeah. But I have a four hour break. Well, too bad.

Because, you know, it was, you know, and we were fascinated by that show, you know, 15 years ago. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about your interview that you did for Rolling Stone with Piper Raquel and her history and what she's doing now. And what's so interesting about it. So I talked to Piper Raquel, who is one of the main child influencers of the last 10 years, and she just turned 18. The really interesting thing about her, and I'm sure that most of your viewers have watched the Netflix documentary, bad influence, dark side of kid influencing, that really showed the dark side of Piper's upbringing, allegedly. And she says that it wasn't true, that it wasn't an honest reflection of what she experienced. But the point is with this and with the court case against her mother, who was alleged to have abuse.

used other kids, other YouTube kids that Piper worked with. Piper was kind of blacklisted in the industry. Like she, no one wanted to work with her. No one was giving her brand deals or sponsorships. And so when she turned into- You mean after, after the dock or before the dock? So after, so before the dock. Okay. And then even more after the doc, but basically when the lawsuit came out, which was a few years before the documentary, against her mother. Against her mother, right. From the other kids that were like doing the YouTube videos for free. and being possibly manipulated or sexually exploited kind of, yeah. Right.

And so people kind of blamed, I don't know, Piper was kind of caught up in her mom's downfall. People didn't want to work with her. And as she approached 18, there were lots of rumors about like, well, is she going to join only fans? Because she did post a lot of salacious content, even like on Instagram and TikTok. And then a few months after she turned 18, she joined only fans. and she says that she made $2.9 million in the first few days. Is it continuing to roll in like that? You know, I'm not sure.

It seems very popular. Like, she is definitely up there on the only fans ranking, but I'm not sure exactly how many. Right. And then I saw a clip of a TMZ podcast interview that she did with this other girl that she's, you know, collaborating with or whatever. and they show a clip of her being like and then I was dying and it's one girl

pouring like a jug of milk like down her throat but it goes on her boobs I was and the comments were like we don't need to see this like we don't need it's fine make your money but like and I get it because it's a cycle and TMZ will get more views off that clip or that podcast then you know and I also see like

would you turn down two point? $2.9 million. Like, and maybe just like, just, right. Back in the day, you know, there were strippers. And it was always like, well, I'm in a strip to put myself through school. And once I get to a certain age, then I can quit stripping or whatever. And this is, you know, or the, uh, the dark side of porn. And, and, you know, those people went to become realtors. And then the market dropped. They'd go back to porn. Like, I mean, it's, it's, at least they're not having to, at least they have their own say in what they're doing.

You know, at least they're not going to some gross house in the valley and, you know, making a one-time payment and having no say and their images can be shared forever. So, like, I do think the model is a million times better. Totally. But it also is like, oh, well, I guess you never will experience, whatever, whether people experience. But, I mean, it seems like she's happy. Do you think she's happy? She seems happy. I think it's just difficult for me to like talk to her and talk about this because she she is 18, but she's so young. I mean, the things that I thought I knew at 18 that I don't believe in now at 32 are just so drastically different. And so I think it's difficult when you're making these decisions that are kind of permanent. Like you can get off only fans, but you can never not be not have been on only fans. You know what I mean? Like that content will always be out there. Yeah, and I just kind of wonder like, you know, like anything, like what what are your, you know, romantic relationships like? Yeah, I can't imagine.

You know, it's one thing to join when you're, whatever, 28 and another to join when you're 18, you know. Yeah, I find that very interesting. Also, last thing was I thought the article, the interview, sorry, the chapter in your book about when fans become. I don't know how you, what was the title of that chapter? Like, what I don't, I don't remember. Okay. Well, it was like when fans become, uh, haters or whatever. Oh, when love becomes hate, parisocial relationships and the rise of snart communities.

Yeah. Yeah. And I, I do think that's so interesting because I never knew that existed until I found mine. I was going to say, have you, I haven't looked at yours. Is it big? Is it, what is it like? I mean, just like your people, I don't want to give it a lot. Yeah.

What is interesting, what I thought was really interesting. And it's really helpful. Everyone should read that chapter that might have one of those. Yeah. Because I have tried to tell people that are suffering from it. And I literally will have a friend that's, you know, maybe a couple of years behind me on the rise of what we do. Yeah. And they discover their thing.

And I see them spiraling. I see them giving an attention. I see them defending themselves, making videos about it. Because it's like in your head, it's like the whole world is saying this. And so I think it's a very like interesting, helpful chapter of how some of the people that you interviewed talked about how hurtful and everything it could be, which I agree. But then also how the only way, which is what I have said, the only way to. continue to do what you're doing when this exists is what I've said is to treat it like if you were a drug addict and that's heroin and you can never touch it again.

Right. And it is tempting sometimes. I can't imagine. When you have your phone and you're like, because someone said like, what if your whole life, you know, before this time you'd go to school and you'd find out two of your best friends were talking about you. And you're like, what do you mean? What did they say?

So it's like you can go and see. that these people that are still your fans because they're spending the time and they're still in truth. They are. They are fans. They're anti-fans but they're fans. Yeah. And you know, and there's been people that have really gone off the deep end and I remember there was this one influencer that someone sent me a thing about because they're like, because I've talked about this before and I felt so badly for her. She was doing really well. She was like known for like being curvy and having a cute husband and they would go and go to a city and try all these restaurants and everything and the group had in her opinion got into a place where they were going to jeopardize

this trip for her and calling restaurants and making up lies or going to the restaurants and you know doing 100 one-star Yelp reviews and all this so you're fucking up the restaurant fucking up her career and I had said like the doc I really want is exploring the person that doesn't just lurk on it and read it because maybe they knew the girl in high school and they're just kind of like enjoying reading the hate and they kind of enjoy dancing on the grave. But the person that actively goes from being a fan to then spending hours a week to try to like take their deals away and take money out of their mouth and what we, What did you find in that? You know, I found that most of the snarkers that I talked to were former fans of the people that they were snarking about. So that's what fascinated me is like that's why the chapter is called from love to hate is because these people, they, it's really interesting because they say they hate the people that they're snarking on.

But like, I was talking to my mom about it. My mom was like, if I hate something, I just don't pay any attention to it. I don't talk about it. I don't put my effort into it. But these people are spending, like you said, sometimes hours per day or per week talking about. these people and trying to change their lives for the worst. And so it's like, I don't know that you can really say that you're a hater. Like, you are a fan of some sort. Like, that is fan behavior. What I thought was interesting when you're talking about some of the secret snarkers is they're like,

but we're calling them out on, you know, if they were wrong or. There's a moral high ground that it's a moral high ground. Like, we are not going to allow this to happen. Like the same thing. I'm like, you know, I found, I mean, you know, I found that, you know, in 2008, on an interview, she mispronounced a word, what a fucking idiot. And like, you know, and then also finding their address before they've even closed on a house, things like that. And I always just wonder if, if you're that person and you're even like listening to this right now. Like, does it make you feel good?

Or does it make you feel like? a loser who needs to get help yourself. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. I can't imagine it feels good to spend all that time tearing someone else down. And then going to the group, it's almost like, you know, I've said, and people are going to real mad when I say this, but I don't care. I always find it crazy when someone gets caught for child corn because they were sharing it with other people. And I'm like, why would you, why I would think that if you're that sick of a fuck, you would keep it to yourself. Right.

Why would? It's something that I think by sharing it, it like normal, it makes them feel more normal, that they're not the only ones that are saying these cruel, mean things about somebody. In their case, I'm saying the same reason someone shares something as dark as that. Obviously, this isn't that. but like wanting to find this camaraderie of join and um but you know what i i'm like it is there it's contained over there yeah you don't have to look at it you don't have to participate in it and you know someone would argue like it's a level of a fame like you should be proud that you have one because if you don't have one, why don't you have one? Yeah. You've been influencing for years or

you're a podcast for years. Like, why don't you have one? So I think once you get to that other side instead of going, but that's not true, I didn't do that or I didn't say that or I don't feel that way, forget it. Like, that is the most powerful thing. And on the other thing, go have your fun. Go screen grab, you know, every story and say this outfit didn't look good. And, like, that is the most powerful thing. And then the other thing, go have your fun. Go screen grab, you know, every story and say this outfit didn't look good. or look at a wrinkly elbow. I mean, but when you look at it and read it yourself, I don't care how much of the Kardashian playlist that you have in your head of putting blinders on,

Chloe used to get bothered. Kim didn't. Most people, if they even see it, it will seep in and affect their mood, their day, their weak. it will be bad. I don't see how it couldn't. I mean, knock on wood, I shouldn't even say it out loud, but I don't have one. And I'm like, I don't know how you would be able to not look at it or if you did look at it, how you would be able to not take it in. But I think you're totally right that like if you have that many fans, you're going to have haters. And it is kind of like a badge of honor. Yeah. I mean, maybe if people realize that on both ends, it will just change like, you know, I would just hate for anyone. to get into a place of real darkness because of some strangers, you know. But like I said, sometimes it can go another level where it can, like, affect friendships,

relationships, business partnerships. Yeah. And that is, that's also just being a public person putting it out there, you know? Yeah, it is. Totally. Well, the book is so good. Like, follow and subscribe. Great title.

You've really done your research. It's really interesting. I also think it's really fun if you are someone that does follow all these people. You do give all the Instagram accounts and where they are. And it made me want to look up and kind of go, oh, that is. And you might find some people that you end up really, you know, finding interesting or fun. Or you might be hopping over to the start group. Yeah, you might be.

Who knows? I don't know. So tell everybody what it comes out and how they can pre-order and all that. Yeah. The book comes out on April 7th. You can pre-order it now wherever you get your books. And you can find me online everywhere at High Fortessa, H-I-F-O-R-T-E-S-A. And I cannot wait for you guys to read it. It is so juicy. I think you're going to be astonished at the things that I found. Yes. So we kept a lot, we didn't get into. So we read the book and we'll do another one and talk about it once everyone's bought the books and you're a number one best New York Times best thing author. willing. Thank you so much for coming on. Yeah, thank you for having me.