Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald - Taylor Swift’s Mistake, Sherri Papini and Karen Read with Matt Murphy, Prosecutor

Episode Date: June 25, 2024

Taylor Swift didn’t listen to me and put her boyfriend Travis Kelce on stage with her. Former prosecutor, Matt Murphy is back, and he is an author! Pre order “The Book of Murder” now! We discuss the Hulu documentary, “The Perfect Wife” about Sherri Papini. What makes a mother fake her own kidnapping for attention? Karen Read is on trial for murdering her boyfriend. Matt is friends with her defense attorney and shares his insight on this crazy Boston case. There is a new book out about the tragic University of Idaho murders. Matt explains why the suspect, Bryan Kohberger is not the definition of a serial killer. Enjoy these triple juicy crimes! This summer you can book whoever you want to be on Booking.com, Booking.yeah! Book today on the site or app. Get 15% off OneSkin with the code JUICY at https://www.oneskin.co/#oneskinpod Go to https://ProlonLife.com/JUICYSCOOP for a special offer: 15% off their 5-day nutrition program Shop Juicy Scoop Merch https://juicyscoopshop.com  Get EXTRA Juicy on Patreon https://www.patreon.com/juicyscoop  Follow Me on Social Media Instagram: https://www/instagram.com/heathermcdonald  TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@heathermcdonald  Twitter: https://twitter.com/HeatherMcDonald Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dry skin, deeper wrinkles, creepiness. These are just a few of the visible sides of aging. Something today's Juicy Scoop sponsor, OneSkin, knows all about. OneSkin is the world's first skin longevity company. By focusing on the cellular aspects of aging, OneSkin keeps your skin looking and acting younger for longer. Get started today with 15% off code JUICY at oneskin.co. That's 15% off oneskin.co with code JUICY. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support Juicy Scoop and tell them we sent you. Heather McDonald has got the Juicy Scoop.

When you're on the road, when you're on the go, Juicy Scoop is the show to know. She talks Hollywood tales, her real life Mr. Safe and Serial Data, and Serial Sister. You'll be addicted and addicted fast to the number one tabloid real life podcast. Listen in, listen up, woo woo, Hannah McDonald, Juicy Scoop. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. Well, as always, I have such a juicy show. I have returned guest, Matt Murphy.

We're gonna get into all these juicy crimes. He's a former prosecutor, so great. First, I wanna thank everybody that came to my shows this past weekend. Tampa at the Hard Rock Casino was so much fun and same with Orlando. And we had the best time. I brought Brandon. It was just so great. I just want to show you this one photo.

This cute Juicy Scooper took a bottle of Rumbauer and crystallized it. Hand done crystals. Just like this cup from a different Juicy Scooper. Now listen, if you're coming to my show, you're bringing me a gift. I need you to make sure that you tell me your name and give me a card with like the at whatever for their instro. I can personally thank you because I get these gifts and I love them and I can't remember the girl

who made me this, but this is the cute girl who made me that. Anyway, everyone's cute. I got chocolate chip cookies. I got homemade apricot jam. And some people say, are you afraid to eat it? No, everyone's cute. I got chocolate chip cookies. I got homemade apricot jam. And some people say, are you afraid to eat it? No, I'm not. We ate everything. We love it. I love meeting my juicy scoopers. The shows were so, so fun. And next up is July 27th in San Diego, Humphreys by the Bay, outdoor gorgeous weather. Julie Goldman will be joining me.

Then I'm going to Houston, Dallas and Austin August 8th, 9th and 10th. And then I'm in Saratoga winery country in California with the fabulous Christopher Angelo and then Vegas in September with Brandy and Julie. So everything is at HeatherMcDonald.net. Make sure you buy your tickets there. And also, you can join my Patreon. So make sure you get it so you're not bummed out, you don't miss out. And then there's a bunch of other fall dates. Okay, first of all, oh, here I am dancing around. Brittany Brave also opened for me. She's a very funny comedian. We had so much fun. Okay. I woke up to this story being sent to me by probably over 100 people. They said, Heather, why are you always right?

You're the first person I thought of. Should we be concerned? And I say, yes, we should. I am talking about that fact that Taylor Swift did a new bit on stage at her heiress tour with her boyfriend, football player, Travis Kelce. As Juicy Scoopers, you know I've had concern about his thirst and also her wanting to masculate him, not emasculate him, masculate him, make him think he is more funny, more charming than he is. Now, this was her choice to put him in this bit. And I'm sure 99.999 Swifties absolutely love it.

And they're mad that I'm thinking it's anything but a delightful sight for the eyes and ears. However, I do not think this is good for the relationship. First of all, I think he should have already asked her to marry him by now. And I think putting him in this bit it's just too... it's dork. It's dorky. It was corny. Now I have yet to go to a Taylor Swift concert. I love her songs. You know I've been behind this

relationship. But the fact that so many people sent it to me shows me that you had concern as well. The bit is and I only saw from like what page six showed, she's like a little doll, like a dead doll or something, and they bring her out and he's wearing like Tails tuxedo from like, I don't know, the 20s, and they have like do do do do do do kind of music, and he's with two other guys, and the crowd's going crazy because they see that it's him, and then he's doing her makeup, and then she takes off her clothes, and he's like, wow, wow, I can't believe she's so pretty. I don't know what this was.

It's my opinion, it was a mistake. It was a mistake for their future of their relationship. He's already got a talk show that he's doing, a game show. He already has sung at certain events. Now people said, Heather, is it okay? He didn't sing. He just danced. I think that could be worse. She made him a comedic backup dancer. I'm going to say a prayer. I want them to work out. I don't want you to attack me for my opinion, but

it's everything that I feared. It's everything that I predicted would not work out if this happened. I don't want work out if this happened. I don't want my predictions to come true. People are like, Heather, why are you even putting it out in the universe? So I'm going to pray that this was a one and done, that they get engaged and get married and have babies and he continues to play football and keep his podcast and leave it at that, that he doesn't become a professional dancer or country singer. But it's looking like everything I feared is coming true. And I apologize for that. Good luck to you.

I did an emergency Taylor Swift video about it and most people are agreeing with me right when I found out. So you can find that on Instagram. Of course, follow me. Are you actually listening to Juicy Scoop and you're not following me on Instagram? Crazy. All right, you guys, now let's get into the juiciest crimes ever with Matt Murphy. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. I am very excited and you are going to be too

because I have a return guest. Prosecutor turned commentator turned now author, Juicy Scoop regular Matt Murphy, Catholic schoolboy turned good guy. Welcome back to Juicy Scoop. Thank you very much. I was telling my son Drake, because he drove me to the studio so I could work on what we're going to talk about today. And I said how we met. And I go, well, the story is kind of great in that we rented this house for five weeks in the summer in Newport.

And my friend, Kate Casey, who a lot of people know, she's got a great podcast too, she lives in Newport and she goes, you know, you're staying in that gated community where one of the juiciest crimes ever happened. She told me about the crime and I'm like, why does this sound familiar? And I go to YouTube and I watched the 2020 on it and you were part of it. And so was this other guy that I knew from college who was like basically the woman, which we already talked about in that episode years ago. This woman was Goldinger. She got an older guy. And she hired the boyfriend to kill him.

Right, the Goughlin case. And you were the prosecutor. That was one of the cold cases that we did. Where you go in and you literally dust off the old boxes. And you go in with a couple of investigators. And I was assigned to Newport as a vertical prosecutor for the homicide unit. So I did all the murders for 17 years.

And that was one that I knew about. And we thought we'd get DNA because there was a couple of clues left. There was a key stuck in the lock and there was some expended shell casings. And we didn't get anything like that. But the case was so fascinating. And we dug in and kind of had a new set of eyes. And you were staying about, I don't know, maybe a dozen or so houses down the street from where that happened. And the family, they haven't changed anything.

The new family that lives there, the door is the same. The crime scene is virtually unchanged. I know and it made it so interesting because after I watched that, then I went down, then I contacted you and then you came to the house in Newport and we did our first Juicy Scoop. And you are a commentator for mostly 2020, but other- ABC News. ABC News on lots of different crimes,

which we're gonna get into all the juiciest crimes. But I will just first say that you have your first book out, the Book of Murder, and it's available for pre-order. It comes out September. 17th. So this is a great time. Pre-order, you guys. That means once you get it,

you can leave a five-star review, or not. Not telling anybody, but I probably. And tell us a little bit about the book. So it is, I had a dinner with Sadiya Niu right when I started putting it together. And essentially, it's my story It is, I had a dinner with Sophia Niu right when I started putting it together. And essentially it's my story of my time in the homicide unit. So it's coming in knowing nothing about murders

and what I learned along the way and some of the cases I got to do. But I had this dinner where, I was trying to figure out how to write it and I've never written a book before. And I really, I want to pour my heart and soul into this thing, and I hope people don't hate it. I think it'll be interesting,

hopefully it'll be educational. But this woman I was with, I'm explaining, like, you know, I've got this, I don't really know the approach, and I had these, some old journals that I'd written at the time that I- That's so valuable. Yeah, that I was able to go back to,

but it was all my stony thoughts. And she kind of waved her hand and goes, nobody's going to be interested in your personal musings on this. And yeah, and it kind of hurt my feelings. And I was walking home. I got a place in New York for my work with ABC. And I thought about it.

And so I quadrupled down on all the personal musings. So this is very much like interpersonal from my perspective. I start with my very first crime scene that I ever went to, my first murder scene, and how I was going through a breakup at the time, and how that all sorta came together.

And I told you the story, one of them, about how I went up dating this woman who I caught her making out with a guy at a wedding. And it was- That was so juicy. It was one of those horrific moments in life that turned into something kind of awesome. So I wasn't, I have an annual surf trip

to Indonesia every year with a bunch of buddies. And I was skipping that year because I'd just gotten promoted to homicide. And she took me to this away wedding and I told him I couldn't go. And I catch her making out with this guy she used to hook up with in college. And it was horrific. So like after the day of drinking and the reception's over, and you turn the corner and there's your girlfriend.

Making out with some dude she used to hook up with in college. Right. And it's like some obscure little hotel in Napa, 100 years old, surrounded by wineries, and you can picture the scene. And I'm at the bar, and I go to the bathroom, and I'm walking down this old dark hallway, and there's this couple making out in the corner, and I look, and it's like, oh, it's my girlfriend

in the last nine months. And so that kind of ended that, and I called like, oh, it's my girlfriend in the last nine months. And so I, you know, that kind of ended that. And I called my buddy Sean, because now I really wanted to go on the surf trip. Yeah. And I go, I get on last minute, there was still an open spot, long story short, the captain of the boat, of the surf charter,

was a very colorful character named Gary Burns. Great guy, we became friends. But Gary had seen some of the seedier side of the boating world, which I knew nothing about. And I spent 10 days on this boat with him and had some great conversations with him and he was like kind of my outlaw friend and I was his prosecutor friend.

And three months later, Tom and Jackie Hawks went missing from their yacht in Newport Beach. And we'd worked that boat up three times. And you were the prosecutor on that. And you had that better knowledge from meeting him and everything. But I didn't yet. I knew nothing.

So we did two forensic workups on the boat, couldn't find a thing. And we were at a dead end about a month and a half into that investigation. I called Gary in Australia and in my cave. We think a murder happened on a boat. What should we be looking for? And without missing a beat, he said,

look for a missing anchor. If they're selling the boat, it would be on a manifest, look for that. And it had been staring us in the face the whole time. Sure enough, missing anchor on the boat, that means they were tied to it. And from that- The couple who owned the boat.

That's right. Because they were tricked by some grifters, criminals that acted like they wanted to buy it and they took them out, right? To show them the boat, and then they tossed them over and stole the boat. Right, so I do a whole chapter on that in the book. Yeah, that was a really juicy one, too.

Thank God for cheating girlfriends, because it literally, it led to the break we needed in that case, and their whole house of cards came tumbling down, and we prosecuted everybody. I always, you know, think of that, too, and maybe like it's faith, whether we share or whatever, but in my life, there's been so many times when something's happened and I have regret.

Oh, I should have picked up the phone. I wish I would have done this. But then every single time a moment will happen, whether it's three months later or three years later or whatever, where I'll be like, you know what? If I had acted differently in that moment that I had regret or if that person didn't show you who they were, I wouldn't have done this, wouldn't have done that and wouldn't have ended up this much better place.

So I definitely do feel like, people always say, oh, everything happens for a reason. I mean, really it does. But I also feel like everything does happen the way it's supposed to be, besides a horrible tragedy. But like, you know, like things like this, losing a job, having a breakup, not getting maybe the house or moving to the city that you wanted to at the time and your heart broken. And then you realize, oh, thank God that worked out that way, you know? It's bizarre.

It really is. It's like you are lowest moments often turn into our best victories. And that was one that like my little stupid broken heart turned into this critical moment in this really important- And cracking a case. Yeah, and a brutal one. And putting away someone that could have done this to many, many more people and been horrible. Dry skin, deeper wrinkles, creepiness. These are just a few of the visible

signs of aging, something today's Juicy Scoop sponsor One Skin knows all about. Now look, you know I do care about the way I look and I want to keep my skin healthy as I get older and I have noticed some of those changes. That's why I love their topical supplements. They actually help your skin feel and behave younger as you age. Founded by an all-woman team of scientists, OneSkin is the first and only skin longevity company to target cellular senescence with their proprietary OS1 peptide.

OS1 is scientifically proven to decrease lines and wrinkles, boost hydration, and help with the thinning skin that often comes with age. Don't just take my word for it. They've got over 4,000 five-star reviews for their full line of face, body, sun, and travel-size products, all of which I'm using, and I absolutely love. OneSkin is the world's first skin longevity company.

By focusing on the cellular aspects of aging, OneSkin keeps your skin looking and acting younger for longer. Get started today with 15% off code JUICY at oneskin.co. That's 15% off oneskin.co with code JUICY. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support Juicy Scoop and tell them we sent you.

So let's talk about some, oh, but you were saying one other thing that I told you something about haters when we met three years ago. and I was like, save it for the pod. You know, yeah, it's the funniest thing. So now I've been doing, with ABC News, I've been doing some podcasts and they've got me promoting the book a little bit and I did Megan Kelly's show and she couldn't have been nicer, by the way. She could not have been nicer or more professional.

And you know, I could have no social media as a DA because you get death threats and all that. And now I've become a 13-year-old girl on Instagram and I'm constantly like, and I'm reading the comments, which I shouldn't do. It's like, I'll get like 30 really nice comments on the Megyn Kelly show. And then a hater that is is so just they're so mean. And I have one that was like I commented about that. We're talking about Ed Shinn, which is another chapter in the book. And it was this guy who who stole from his business partner

and ripped off millions of dollars and blew him on on hookers and gambling in Vegas. Right. I guess I'm not supposed to. He blew the money on hookers, not he didn't blow the partner. Right, right, he blew all of his money. Yeah, he did not. Yeah, he did not blow the partner. He blew the money in Vegas on sex workers,

I believe is the term I'm supposed to use. But anyway, so she plays a clip from the actual trial and I'm watching this and I'd forgotten how nice his suit was. He wore Giorgio Armani- like bespoke suits that he had done. And I'm looking at the clip and the little clip, my comment was that guy had, you know, just for starters, his suit is more valuable than my entire wardrobe. That was my comment. And there was a comment online like, I don't know anything about this case,

but the fact that Matt Murphy would comment about the price of his suit says a lot about him as a prosecutor. It's like, you can't win. You can't win. No, you can't, but you know, when someone says something like that, whether you're reading it in a comment or whatever, and it's sort of, that's kind of stabbing at your character.

I think that's where people, whether you're a prosecutor, a comedian, a reality star, and the stab at your character is not true. That's where you get like, oh my God, that's not true. And I want to defend myself. And you have to just learn to just be like, I'm never going to win you over. If that's how you feel about me,

I'm not going to win you over no matter what I do. You've decided you don't like me. And you're going to constantly look for things where you can poke holes in my character. Right, it's like, but I'm reading it just going, dude, who hurt you? You know, all I know is it wasn my character. Right, it's like, but I'm reading it just going, dude, who hurt you? All I know is it wasn't me. Right.

OK, so last night we just started watching the Hulu doc, which is several episodes, I'm one and a half in, the Sherry Papini story, which to bring people up to date, though if you're a juicy skipper, I started talking about this the moment it happened which was in 2016 because I've had the show for nine years and this is a really pretty blonde two little kids like two and four married to an equally cute guy was in Reading he comes home from work

she is not there he said she must be on a run. But then she didn't come or he thought she must be taking the kids, picked up the kids. He finds out the kids are still at daycare. He finds her iPhone and her earbuds with the plug and her blonde hair wrapped around it. They call the police. Now when this was happening, you know, I was all part of reading all the stuff too. And it was like, there supposedly is trafficking. And I thought since she was a young blonde and natural, no makeup, I'm like, you know, maybe they thought she was 16 and she'd be more valuable and all of this stuff. So she's gone for 22 days. And then on Thanksgiving Day she waves down a driver and she's chained and her hair is chopped off. But though they never showed us until I just saw the clips of the Hulu

doc, the way they described her when they found her is like we found her, she's been burned and like in a branded way, she has bruises. She looks completely different. Her hair has been chopped off. So I was imagining, because they wouldn't show us, like the way you would take a Barbie doll and cut off the hair, okay, and have it look like a crazy person. In last night's episode, when I said I learned some new things,

it was just cut like a cute bob, which is important because I'm gonna root it for you guys and for my son who started to watch it because he keeps going. Because when it started, he's like, the husband's involved, the husband's involved. But since this has been a story that's been highly publicized,

no, she faked the whole thing, which we can talk some about that. But she faked the whole thing for attention, obviously, and who knows what. But I also remember hearing that people thought that they not, people did not really think, I believe, that she was involved until she came back. And then her story didn't seem to add up

when she said, two Mexican women are the ones who kidnapped me. And I was like, okay, so she's saying two women, are they lesbians? Why would they want to keep her? And then I was like, and if their goal was to traffic her, and they never really told us the cops, because they must have been suspicious, which I want to ask you about, but they never told us if she was sexually assaulted or not. And so I was like, if these people want to traffic her, why are they destroying her looks by bruising her and everything? Are they two Mexican women who are just jealous that she's beautiful? It made no sense. And

then of course we found out quite a bit later. How much later did we find out that she was – Well, I don't know when we officially found out. I was still in the office when that happened. We were watching it. She turned up in Huntington Beach. That wasn't one of my cities, but I did a bunch of murders with them. That's a top-notch police department.

Now, tell us about the Huntington Beach. You can share that part about how she was staying at this former boyfriend's house. Yeah, it turns out she spent, what was it, 30 days or so, or three weeks with an ex-boyfriend from high school that she had basically broken up with him and then married the guy that she was with, who is in fact, by all accounts, a really good guy. Yeah. So when she first went missing, the media, as we've seen, when somebody goes missing,

that's really when the media gears up because people want to help find them. That captures the public attention more than anything else. And sadly, being a pretty white blonde, predominantly those people get more press. But now there are so many people that do press, myself included. I was obsessed with the story too. So it's like you're getting traditional press, but then you're getting people doing videos and discussing on social media as well because of the circumstances of her looks too. Right.

Played a role. Yeah. And the thing is, my head and everybody else in law enforcement, when a woman like that goes missing, you're not thinking law enforcement when a woman like that goes missing You're not thinking they're being trafficked like you know that Liam Neeson movie what taken right like that's I guess it's real it's real somewhere out there, but it's What actually happens in those cases those are those are rapist murderers, and that's those guys those predators exist, they've existed forever. And unfortunately, California right now, we're tacking back towards early release. And there's more of those guys out there. And that's where everybody's head goes. Like, okay, she's been kidnapped, raped, and she's going to be found. If she's ever found,

she's going to be found dead. She's going to be in a ditch, she's going to be raped, murdered. That's it. As soon as she turned up with that story, every cop in California, every prosecutor who's done murders said, there is, can I swear on this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, that's bullshit. There's no, that doesn't, her story doesn't happen. She's kidnapped by two women, and you're exactly right. You immediately eliminate every motive to actually do that.

There's no sexual assault described. Right. Okay, so, you can't say that never happens, but that never happens. Okay. And then, so there's no sexual assault described. Right. Okay, so you can't say that never happens, but that never happens. Okay. And then, so there's no sexual assault, there's no murder. They brutalized her looks exactly like you said. If they're going to sell her in some way or in some way trying to traffic her, that makes no sense. And they branded her, don't forget. And the way she described that, she described it as a hot tool, I think.

Even the description didn't make sense. None of it made sense. And immediately everybody knew that there was something radically off of that. And then her ex-boyfriend, I think, came out. He was... Well, I'm kind of excited to watch it because I was trying to remember. But basically, the way I remember reporting on it in the past was I was like, oh my God,

this guy is not the sharpest tool in the shed. He just didn't seem very smart. The ex-boyfriend? The ex-boyfriend, he believed her. He, she did the story of I'm with this abusive man. And so what I learned from last night's show, which I didn't know, is the husband, there was viral video of moments that they shared

of him being interrogated, but then also when she came in. But these interviews I'd never seen before. And in the initial interviews, he was like, well, after we got married, but before we had kids, I saw text messages that she was texting with this guy that she like met on a work trip. And so he's like, so I did a post-nup with her. And so he's like, so what would that mean? The cop said, and he's like, if we were to get divorced, she would have nothing, not a car, nothing, which I was also like, well, that

doesn't make you look very good, dude. But whatever, she agreed to sign it. But she was flirting and everything on text. So then that guy or one of these, there were several guys that she was flirting with. So then this one took the bait and she said to that guy too, I have an abusive husband, this and that. He's like, okay, so he made a plan to pick her up and then they went to Huntington. And what I still don't know, and do you know, did she ever sleep with that boyfriend?

Because from the initial reports, it was that she didn't. And I was like, this guy really is a chump. Like he really did screw up. That's supposedly she did not. So imagine that. So that guy has her staying there. Like he's like, he's like a triple chump. Yeah, like an idiot.

Like you totally used, looks like a fool and got zero action as a result. Yes, and what I also don't remember is like somehow I wanna say that, how did they, do you recall how they found out that it was his house and he was involved I want to say like somebody on his in his life was like you got to come forward like a cousin I want to say like a cousin or somebody Was like dude, but he did come forward and he cooperated

He did come for like someone's got him to come forward and then what was interesting about liars is And then what was interesting about Liars is when she described the room that she stayed in with, and then what was crazy is she names the two girls, Shmetty and Tate. Tate as in like, you're Tate. And she goes, Shmetty was the big one, and Tate was the little one. And I felt like Tate wasn't as mean as Shmetty.

I'm like, this is comical. This is crazy. But when I remember this, that she, and when in her describing her lie to them about Shmeddy and Tate, she described the room exactly as the room that she actually stayed at his place in Huntington. Like where the window was and all that, which is what?

Tell me about liars. Which is the genius of every good liar will tell you as much truth as they possibly can. And then they will insert the BS like like Scholar Dilley on that case. We're just talking about that guy was a gold medalist liar, which which he was the killer of Tom and Jackie Hawks. Oh, of the boat people. Yeah. And it was he would inject so much truth. So when you investigate it, it's like, hey, well, they really were looking to sell their boat.

They really were looking to buy property in Mexico. And so when the police go and they try to corroborate stuff, they find things that are true and then they just can't corroborate the lie. So it's like, that's advanced lying. That's like, that's varsity lying. And she was doing some of that. And what's interesting in episode two,

they start to get into the lies that she told throughout her life. So she had these two like cuts that had kind of slightly scarred over on her back that looked like little wings. She told the husband that an ex-boyfriend took two knives and went like that. She told a friend that her dad did it. And of course, she had self-inflicted it.

So these wounds that happened to her, they were all self-inflicted? They were all self-inflicted, yeah. Like very gone girl-ish. Yes, yeah. And you know, the problem with that There's a woman outside of Atlanta who just did something very similar. This is not a one-off. This is a this is a thing What's the story in Atlanta? Same kind of thing. She might have been inspired by Sherry Pappini. She went out

on a on a run and I think she had headphones that were found on the side of the road. And there was, she called 911 and said there's a child running across the road. Oh, that's right. I remember that story. Right, remember that?

Yes. Yeah. So this is Sherry Papena's, I mean, we refer to the phrase, you're in good company. She's in very bad company and that she's not alone here. The problem with this, of course, is that, and I've been on the inside of these things. When you have a woman that goes missing, or a child that goes missing,

or in the Atlanta case, it was both. She said there's a child on the road, and then her phone cuts off. Every cop in that entire area drops what they're doing and goes to work on the case. It's like all hands on deck. And they did that with Sherry Pappini. Oh, yeah.

And they did everything that they could. And you know, there's a lot of really... Like, the vast majority of police officers are hardworking, dedicated people. Despite the bad press that they've gotten the last couple years, they're some of the best humans I've met over the course of my life, and they drop anything they're working on to try to find that poor woman or that poor kid. And for this attention grab, whatever the motivation is for people to do this, they are hurting not only the local community, every victim that is losing ground on their case, but for jurors, because people like this exist, they are willing to entertain

fanciful conspiracy theory nonsense because people like Sherry Papini or the woman outside of Atlanta are out there in the world and they do crap like this. It is incredibly harmful. And one part of it, I'm doing criminal defense now, right? So it's like, I can see this from both. Yeah, but it's, but you know, from a rational point of view,

it's like, I can see this woman's obviously got issues, but she's not mentally ill in the sense that she's got some, you know, organic, she's not bipolar, she's not schizophrenic. She is somebody that, you know, is warped, but not mentally ill in the sense that it's mitigating in any way. Well, not mentally ill in the sense

that you don't know right from wrong and that kind of a thing. Right, that's right. Yeah, so she did her time, they got divorced. She didn't show up for the divorce, but they got divorced divorced and she did not participate in this, which we can understand why. And then she just talks to him. According to him, he has full custody and she talks to the kids on the phone like once a month. Okay. Which is the right thing, right? You give the husband custody and that.

Yeah. How much time does she get again? I don't have it in front of me, but it wasn't that long. It was like a couple years, Max. Yeah. I don't have it in front of me, but it wasn't that long. It was like a couple years max. And, you know, of course, but what I, what just, you know of course I thought about the wasting of resources and stuff like that. But my thing was like, first of all, how could you have left your two and four year old

for 20 days or whatever it was? Because especially when they're that age, you crave like holding them and touching them and so like that was extremely bizarre to me but then did when you see like her own sister and stuff crying remembering thinking that her friend her sister was dead and that and they show the video when the When the best friend tells her husband that they found her alive and that you would ever put anyone through that tells her husband that they found her alive, and that you would ever put anyone through that,

of course you don't want that person in your life ever again. You're like, hey, go dye your hair brown, change your name, go to another place, maybe meet another guy, be a black widow. I don't know, but no, no one's going to forgive you for that no matter what you say or do. And I mean, yeah, you talk about the ultimate betrayal. I mean, that's the and look, in a relationship like that,

the very first suspect there is always the husband. Right. And it's like and he's going to get and look, there was that guy, I'm forgetting the name of the case, where it was it turned out it sounded weird, but it was real. Oh, that was with the couple. Yes. They just recently did a doc on that one, which I remember that one too, which the couple,

a guy came in in the middle of the night and kidnapped her. And of course, no one believed the weird story, but he really was a psycho who just wanted to see if he could kidnap somebody. And the police, yeah, they blew it. Yeah, they blew it. And they went after that guy super hard, the husband. The boyfriend, boyfriend. Boyfriend, yeah, they blew it. Yeah, they blew it. And they went after that guy super hard, the husband. The boyfriend, boyfriend, yeah.

The boyfriend, yeah. But in the end, they ended up getting married and having kids and made money off the dock and sued. So good for them. But it's because of stuff like this that then people don't believe the stories. Or it is the story of the, unfortunately, you know, this, I remember when I saw this too.

And I do say, look, I'm not the only one that thinks it, but I know where I was when the Jussie Smollett story came out. And I was about to go on Wendy Williams as we were doing guest panels because she was not doing the show at the time. And I was like, this is a horrible story. But I remember they told, they were giving the details because they wanted to talk about it. And they said two white men had ski masks on. And I remember I said, well, how do we know they're white if they have ski masks on?

And MAGA hats. And MAGA hats, but I was like, but how do we know they're white if they see? And I remember they were like, don't say that on the panel. And I was like, okay, right. So I just remember what I said. And I said,, okay, right. So I just remember what I said and I said,

this is so horrible and to me, this is domestic terrorism because, because I still felt like it could be fake, but I was like, whoever is the terrorist, in this case it was Justice Smollett because he ignited in our already horrible situation socially in America by making us think another, that people are so evil. Right. You know, but then of course, going out for a subway sandwich as a young actor at two in the

morning in like zero 40 below zero, like all of it. But it's that thirst that like, that I just, I think has been exasperated. Like the people being thirsty for attention, we see it in real life with this woman, Cherry Papini. We see it a lot online with people making up stories, crying, acting like a victim, creating their own bots and things to go after themselves to look like a victim. It is this whole thing. It's knowing that if you go and do a crying video, you're gonna get more views than if you were just like,

I had a great day at a birthday party. Like nobody, it's so insane. I think that, first of all, anybody who hasn't seen it yet should watch the Dave Chappelle breakdown on Jesse Smollett. Oh yeah. It is absolutely biting. He calls him Juicy Smollett or something. Smollett, it's French.

Yeah. And it is, it's French. And it is, I think that that, if there's culturally, what's going to help is when people like that get mocked. Because then there's a sense of shame to it. And you know, like- Yeah, don't do it. Yeah, don't look what happened to him. Right, it's like the old stocks that they used to do in the Middle Ages where whoever

is bad in the village, they'd make them sit there and the kids could throw rotten fruit at them or whatever, you know what I'm talking about? Yeah. Like Pilgrim Times, that the things. Right. We have a version of that in social media now.

And that's like, I think that's when comedians lampoon them because it's like, that's the worst, in a way that's the worst punishment, especially for an actor. And even Eminem's new song has Sherri Papini in the rhyme. Oh gosh. He just made it come back and he mentions Sherri Papini. As a liar.

Yeah, because it's like, but we should, we should always remember that like, I mean, and then also in this day and age of where you know the husband is always gonna be found as guilty. And it's like, but what I wanna know, and I hope we find out in this OCK and I don't know, is like, what was the plan? Because 20 days is pretty long. And I just love that, and I joke too when it happened.

I'm like, oh, and isn't that nice that she comes back on Thanksgiving because she was like, today's going to be a real good meal and I'm pretty hungry, so let's have a Thanksgiving. And I want to have Christmas with my family and I want to be a hero and I want to do this whole thing. But I'm like, but what, I still don't get what was the plan.

That was the plan. You just said it in the head, it was be a hero. It was be Elizabeth Smart. It was be, you know, do the true crime circuit, write a book and nobody would know. And look, another thing about people like this is they're enamored with their own intelligence, right? It's like they're, they love how clever they're being without understanding. It's like the their own intelligence, right? It's like they love how clever they're being

without understanding. It's like the old adage, right? Isn't that narcissistic behavior? Like where they think they're the smartest one in the room. Right, and it's like if you were insane, how would you actually know? Like that'll, right? If you were really stupid, how do you know?

And they never really do, right? We see it all the time. And it's people like this, like she, that was the plan. And it was, she was going to come back, be a hero. Her kids were going to adore her. Mommy got saved from the clutches of freaking international white slavery or whatever, whatever her story was.

And that, that was it. And they don't, I don't know, an investigator later in Montgomery who, who used to say these people play checkers, not chess. You know, so she's thinking one move ahead, she's not thinking 10 moves ahead. And universally, they think that cops are idiots. They think investigators are idiots.

And they think we are idiots, that we're gonna buy off on it and nobody's gonna question it. Like the Jesse Smollett, I mean, that whole thing was, and he's still unrepentant. I mean, he's- No, he's still acting like it wasn't-

Yeah, yeah. Dave Chappelle broke that down beautifully. And that's, I think there has to be more of that stuff. I think if there's a sense of shame that is attached to getting caught, I think that consequence will win. Cause the woman in Atlanta got next to nothing. I think she did even less time than Chappelle.

I've got to look this up when I leave and figure out, because she was in federal court. Federal judges don't mess around. So I know she did some time at least. But I would not be surprised if she is able to stay cute and hook some other guy. I'm sure she already has another boyfriend and she will probably have, probably even if once this dies down after this,

she's probably hating that this doc is out. But then, you know, she'll be called, she's probably called Sharon, not even Sherry anymore. She'll have some new married name and she can just like reinvent herself. And she'll have friends and she'll probably even have another baby. Well, that's like Nanette on our case at a Newport.

All right, that's what I just did. She changed her name. The gold digger who hired the? The gold digger, so she got prosecuted for fraud back in the day, but never the murder. And so she just moves on to the next name, marries another guy. Her husband at the time had no idea that she was even a suspect in that murder 15 years

later. No clue. Really good guy. So she's living the Newport High Life. Living that whole day. She was in Ladera Ranch. She had a church group. Like 50 of them showed up for the arraignment.

You know, like this has got to be a mistake. This is a case we worked on for two and a half years. Right. She's the best at the bake sale. They've got this totally wrong. Like I rubber stamped something that some cop threw on my desk. You live a case like that as a prosecutor, as a detective,

and you know every single detail. And these people came in who were all also manipulated, and that's the thing. She just changed her name, nobody knew. Nice person in the world. So sweet. Yeah, because that's what these grifter, liars people are.

She had all these, Sherry Papini, in the first episode they share that she kind of ran away from home at like 16. And from like 16 to like mid 20, she had several boyfriends and one played hockey for the Ducks. Like she was finding like, you know, not total losers. Like people had their shit together

and she could hook these guys. And when she met him, this husband, she was married to somebody else. And the first night they met, she's like, I'm married but he's abusive and we're getting divorced. So it's again, every guy was told that the previous person she was with was abusive. So they get to be the hero too.

Right, right. There's a country song about that. Something like always check for the boots under the bed and you'll know your future or something like that. But- Wait, what does that mean? It's basically like the guy before you is what your experience is gonna be.

Like the man that she's talking about is exactly that is your future. Oh yeah, that's good, yeah. But yeah, as a prosecutor, the thing is when you, people forget, when you actually have to try these things, when somebody actually does it, a lot of the defenses are these fanciful, outlandish stories.

And as a DA, they only need one. So the defense just needs one juror to hang it, right? And all you need is, it's like the lowest common denominator. And when you stand up and say, this is absurd, that, well, there's people like her. So all you need is one person to remember that. And it makes the good guy, it makes the job for the good guys a lot tougher.

And by good guys, I mean, the actual victims, the forensic personnel, the detectives, and the other jurors, you know, that come in. So well, speaking of juries, okay, so Karen Reed, I've talked about this a couple times on the show. This is the case of this, she's a professor, I believe, at a university. She was dating a Boston cop. She's in her early 40s and she and he were drinking, they went to an after party. She dropped him off at the after party, was pretty buzzed when she came home, passed out, woke up.

He wasn't there. She went back to the house and she dropped him off. And now this is where I messed up some of it. Did she find his body or he was already taken to the hospital because the owners of the house found his body outside at the end of the driveway? She found his body and called 911. She got two friends and went back and she made a bunch of really sort of incriminating statements along the way.

She got two friends to go with her. I think they were in two cars, but she made, she's like, I know I hit him, I know I hit him, things like that, and went back. And as they're pulling up, the other two women couldn't see him, but she's like, there he is. Because he's in the snow.

Right. Right. I know Alan Jackson pretty well. Who's that. Because he's in the snow. In the snow, right. Right. I know Alan Jackson pretty well. Who's that? Alan Jackson's her defense lawyer. Okay. Alan Jackson is the real deal. He was a former DA in LA and a very, very good trial lawyer.

And so me watching this, I think the prosecution's a little bit outgunned based on some of the things I've seen. Well, I mean, it's definitely gonna be a movie if not a doc. I'm sure there's already a documentary team that are following it. If she was smart, if she and her dad probably already said yes to letting them film her waking up every day

kind of like the staircase one. It's a lot of accusations as far as the defense that these cops were involved in protecting each other. So the theories are that A, she was drunk, backed up, inadvertently hit him, and then he died in the snow, and nobody ever saw him at the party. The other one is she dropped him off,

he went to the party, and she was buzzed, came home at the party. Some shit went down with these other guys, one of whom she flirted with and kissed. And they hit him or they got in a fight and killed him there and then threw him out in the snow or got in a fight. He went and left and had a head injury and fell and died in the snow and they didn't know that they had contributed to his death. And then the cover-up and everything,

and phones have been thrown away. And so yesterday, they had the, or the latest ones, are that the defense is putting on their case. And they had somebody drive by, someone who said, I drove by the house numerous times and I didn't see anyone. Yeah. Which I don't think that's that great

because it's nighttime and it's snow and- And it's snowing heavily too. Yeah. And yeah, not seeing somebody under those circumstances, especially you're not looking for a body that's down. And yeah, they charge her initially, it's a murder case, right? And there's two ways you can get to a murder.

You can obviously murder, murder, like intentionally killing somebody, which is what the defense is arguing. The other way is if you are so impaired, or it's called implied malice. Essentially, you recklessly disregard the safety of other people and if you do so with a depraved and malignant heart is the old language we

used to have in California that's now been changed but in other words if you if you act so bad that you disregard the safety and well-being of other people you can be charged with implied malice you don't actually have an intent to kill but you act so badly that we imply the mouse. You imply the intent. Got it. So it's like fourth time DUIs or like that Grossman woman that happened up in your neighborhood. Yes, we talked about that one.

The one who's racing with her boyfriend or whatever she was doing. Yeah, to remind people, she was a socialite. She is married to a very prominent plastic surgery, but also has the Grossman-Burn Center. And they had an open marriage at the time, and she was racing her boyfriend, you know, was part of the story, to go to a place that she was running to have sex probably.

And there was a mother and her four kids walking, and her two boys were hit by her, who was speeding. And there was all proof that there was speeding and everything. And so her whole thing, I think her defense was, they went and tried to say that they, whatever, the turn,

it's the city's fault. I don't know what that was going. Do you remember that? Yeah. What was going with that? That's your classic implied-malice murder. That was a horrific case. And she, despite, I'm not a fan of George Gascon, is the DA of LA at all.

And the woman who was in charge of that case was named Diana Turan. She just got charged with a bunch of felonies by the California Attorney General's Office. The DA did? The DA's right-hand woman in Los Angeles County. George Gascon's a disaster. We won't get into that.

But the prosecutors who did that case were outstanding and they achieved a murder conviction on that. Same theory here. So- And she got, I think, 20, like 19 years. She got 19 years. Yeah, to life, right. And then I guess, so is that done now

or can she still appeal? No, there's a motion for new trial pending. Hopefully that goes nowhere. George Gascon is in everything. He can't just screw up that case. And in my view, my opinion, those little boys deserve justice as this family. And that woman is, if you read any of her stuff,

she's very controversial, the defendant on that, just because she's so awful. A lot of people think that she was- Grossman, the defendant. So, Grossman, the defendant. So yeah, I don't know her, but... I know, and one thing obviously you know about working with the victims as a prosecutor, but to just then, you have a horrible death,

you lose someone special in your life, but then with each trial, you have to appear, you have to live through it, then you get the conviction, then there's an appeal, then there's this, then they're there, and then you have to go and make sure that they don't get out. And it's like you're living through that trauma every time versus just someone who died in the hospital or whatever.

California's taken a big left turn away from victims, unfortunately. And Gascon is a perfect example of that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. of the prosecution from the word go. What I don't like about the defense, and it's probably gonna be very effective,

but it's just hard to watch. And Alan, I've had dinner with Alan, I really like Alan. Her defense lawyer. And he is an excellent trial lawyer. And he's, you know, people think of LA and you think Marshall Clark, Christopher Darden, which are not excellent trialers. And no shade on either one of them.

And I know Chris Darden, he's a nice guy, we get along fine, but Alan's the real deal. So you get a really powerful orator like Alan Jackson with these theories. My problem with Karen Reed is that she didn't just, it's not just about, hey, I didn't act recklessly because I didn't know that I hit him and like running without the fence.

It's blaming people in the house for the death of this guy where, you know, because now it's not just about her. She is, and there's some, is this guy's name Turtle? Turtle Boy? Yeah. There's some local, some local radio host who's got a podcast who is off the rails completely. And he's got people showing up at the homes

of the people that were in the house. Of the cops and stuff. Of the people that lost their friend who are from the prosecution's point of view, these are totally innocent people. They're just witnesses that thought their friends were coming over after a night of drinking. And he didn't show up and they go out

and they learn that he's died in the snow. And then he's got all these followers showing up at their house, like picking them, saying that they're involved in this conspiracy. Like it's kind of gotten a little bit out of hand. I mean, the thing about it as far as like, you know, because I was thinking like, is it gonna be a documentary?

Is it gonna be a movie? The only way it could be a movie is if somebody comes forward and we really find out what happens. If, if, even if she gets off because they're just, you know, the classic, if you're not 100% sure you can't convict her and it just goes and we never really know, which I kind of feel like that's what's going to happen, then then that doesn't really make for a good movie. It's like, if it's gonna be a movie about what happened, then we have to find out what someone has to finally,

like, confess or say, you know, so-and-so did get into it. And he punched him out, and we were like, get the fuck out of the house, and then he stumbled and whatever, but there's no ring camera to show that, you know? And there's no witness that is ever gonna come out and actually say that. No way, not in Boston.

And not only that, but it's a pretty, and look, I think the way this is going, I think it's gonna work, I think the defense is gonna work, if I have to call it, but there's jurors there, I guarantee they're looking at this going, it was a heavy night of drinking, cause it was. Right. She was three sheets to the wind, because she was.

She had something in her mind, because she kept telling her friends, I know I hit him, I know I hit him, before his body was discovered. Which is really bad, because it's like, you know when you do drink a lot, and the next day, it's like you sort of have like flashes like a movie, and you're like, did I fucking say that?

And that's why you have like alcohol anxiety the next day. So it's like she might have been like, oh fuck, no, I kind of remember like I shouldn't have been driving or even, you know, when that happens and you're like, wake up the next day and you're like, I probably shouldn't have driven last night. But they said they had clocked evidence that at least seven drinks had been consumed by her. It's on video. It's on video. I think it's called The Falls.

The place is called The Falls. They went to two different bars, I think. But there's her drinking patterns established with the receipts. And literally, they have internal cameras, and you can count the drinks. So she was hammered. And I don't even think she could.

So the argument, arguably, should be, this is a horrible accident, she didn't mean to kill him. What does that mean? Is this a misdemeanor manslaughter? I mean, that's kind of one direction the defense could go. Alan has gone all in on this conspiracy theory that, you know, which, you know, if he's right, then good for him. That's the job of a defense lawyer, right?

Yeah. I mean, I think that is the only way you can go. Because if you just went like she was wasted, but didn't mean it, then she's still going to be convicted and do a decent amount of time. So this is the only way you could go. Well, not necessarily. Because if it's, there's, manslaughter breaks down into, there's the implied malice murder, which means you've gotta be consciously disregarding the safety, which is tough when somebody's that drunk

under these circumstances. But if it's just an accident and she loved the guy, then you get juror's sympathy, and then you're talking about a misdemeanor manslaughter, which typically, at least in California, results in no time. So it's, you know, there's a lot to work with there from the defense perspective.

So then but then the defense could say the reason it didn't go this way is because the cops and the prosecutor and everybody knew what really happened. So they were like, we have to paint this narrative. And I'll tell you what, Alan, I mean, I've talked, talked to me, he is incredibly persuasive and passionate as he goes to this and look, I don't know, it's not my case. So I'm- Yeah, well speaking of drunk driving, over the weekend Justin Timberlake got arrested for- The cop didn't know who he was either.

Amazing. Which is awesome, amazing. Yeah, amazing, best part of it was, so he supposedly had a very stiff, martinis or something, and was driving home in the Hamptons, and the cop pulled him over and didn't know, and he's like, this is gonna ruin the tour, and the driving home in the Hamptons and the cop pulled him over and didn't know. And he's like, this is going to ruin the tour. And the guy's like, what tour? And he didn't know who he was, which is so funny and great. They found there's

a photo of the guy, he's 22. And I'm like, can't wait to see him on The Bachelor next season. Like, you just know. Because everyone's like, I love him. That's what cops are supposed to do. But of course, he just saw another guy in his 40s that looked wealthy and white, who was trying to get out of a DUI, and he's doing his job. And so like good for him. Yes.

And then other people have conspiracy theories. Were the ticket sales doing that well, much like J.Lo? Did he want to be arrested? No, I don't. I don't think anybody wants to be arrested for a DUI. Nobody wants to not do the tour. Thank God he was arrested because if he pulled a Rebecca Grossman or something like that, then he really would be done. He can twist this around, but there was a video of him recently performing and his eyes were like this and everybody was like, he's on cocaine. Like, what is this?

He didn't, he and then people wrote, I was at that show and he wasn't finishing the songs and he was out of it. So you know, if he has a problem, maybe this is thank God this happened and he, you know, gets on the wagon and like gives up alcohol. My dad got sober after a DUI. That actually happens, you know, like having some consequences to that sort of thing. Some people kind of figure it out. So hopefully, you know.

And then people expect you to. Like there's, you know, a Real Housewife of OC that got a DUI. And the new season hasn't started. But they sure show her in the trailer going, oh, I'll have a double vodka with a lemon twist and everyone looking like she shouldn't. So, you know, do you totally give up alcohol? You know, you should, but not everybody does.

And you don't necessarily have to, you just can never drive drunk again. Yeah, and the thing is, is that the days of, this is gonna ruin the tour, those days are long. Those days are long. Yeah, no one cares about the... No, and not only that, like I know judges and DAs getIs, and not all the time, but when it happens, they get a DUI.

Nobody's driving you home under those... Like it's 1955 and like, yeah. Exactly. Those days are long and long since in the review. Well, that's good. Yeah. Okay. The latest on the horrible Idaho murders.

There is a book coming out, which is, they said, this is from New York Post, a bone chilling new book claims to reveal that the true target of the infamous University of Idaho murders were the four young kids are murdered in their home. How do you pronounce his name again? Coburger. Yeah, Coburger. They have a suspect, He is arrested. He's going on trial. Is there really anything new in this book from someone that follows it?

Now, if you didn't follow it and you want to know all the details, I'm sure they just collected all the details. But I always remember that was the theory, because he comes in the house, and the two girls that lived on the first floor, he didn't go in there. But they saw one saw him go up there. So he went to the main Madison room, who they think was the main, and normally she would

be there by herself, but her girl was a drinking night and the girlfriend just crashed in her bed, her friend. So then he killed both of them. And then we think the boyfriend and the girlfriend who were sharing a room heard the commotion, got up and tried to stop it. Like what the hell's going on? And then they were killed too. And then he left and then the two were saved

at the bottom floor. Right. Yeah, so this is, first of all, that's an awesome photo. Look at how creepy he looks. And of course he's presumed innocent, I have to say that as a lawyer. But this is one of the things that's interesting about this

is this is kind of what homicide prosecutors do all the time. Cause the thing about murder cases, which is different than any other kind of crime is that your best witness is always dead. So it's about sort of filling in the gaps. And they have a whole forensic science known as blood spatter, without the L, spatter, where they try to reconstruct what happened in crime scenes based on the blood pattern,

the way the victims bleed out. Sometimes there's blood on the ceiling, which is called cast-off. And they try to reconstruct it. The theory in this is that he was targeting one of them, which makes, it does make a lot of sense. And because she was actually in bed with her friend, not in bed in bed, but they used to sleep together.

Just sleep over, yeah. Right, which he might not have anticipated. Now he'd been to that place, he'd been to that about a dozen times based on surveillance video. The house that they lived at, yeah. So he was very intent on somebody. And Serial Killers is another chapter

that I do in the book, and it's fascinating. You know, there's this myth out there that they are, it's a product of modern America, and we think of, because there's so many famous ones here, but Serial Killers have been around for thousands of years. Some of the most interesting cases we know about, Jack the Ripper, of course. There are people in continental Europe at the same time, late 1800s, when they first started trying to study this.

And there's this fascinating book written by a German psychiatrist, kind of a contemporary of Freud, trying to figure out what makes serial killers tick. And he technically doesn't meet the, I mean, assuming if he did it, allegedly, he doesn't meet the FBI definition because this would have been considered a spree, but there's almost always, for the true blue serial killers, there's almost always a sexual or an obsessive component.

And they will, you know, he, if you- So you think, so they think, or you or whoever, the theory of it is that he was obsessed with her and because he was studying criminal, criminology and everything that he was one of those that I was like, I'm going to see if I can do it. Like, I do think that's really creepy when I've seen stuff like that. Like, all of a sudden, he really hadn't done anything. He was a creep, but he hadn't done anything. And he was just like, I want to see if I can do it and get away with it. He was getting his PhD at Washington State.

Yeah. And I want to see if I... And so his plan might have been kill her, get out silently, someone would find her the next day, and no one would ever know who did it because they never dated, there wasn't any connection to him. But being that the friend was also in the room, that threw it off, that added to loud commotion because he had to kill two people and then he ended up killing four. And so it was like the accidental serial killer. Like it wasn't his whole and that's interesting because the accidental serial killer. Like it wasn't his whole... And that's interesting because like you said, he didn't fit the profile. What is the profile of a serial killer?

Of a true blue... Of a true serial killer. So the FBI definition is somebody who kills two or more victims and they might have added three, three or more victims at different events. But the typical, the long-standing definition is two or more victims at different events. But the problem with that is that that includes gangsters who are good aim, you know, like active gang members or nurses who are who do mercy killings, you know, of like geriatric patients and things like that.

So not those though, if we're just focusing on the predatory kind. Yeah, the real guys. There's a it, it's, and I'm gonna butcher it because it's, I think it's all German, but it's this book written by this guy, this psychiatrist, Dr. Von Ebbing, and it's Psychopalus Sexualis. Essentially, he tries to figure out where serial killers are on a spectrum of sexual paraphilias.

So he tries to fit them in and he called them sadistic lust murders, which is really interesting because the true blue guys, like my Rodney Alcala case or my Andrew Erdiales case or Ted Bundy, the Night Stalker. Who were those two cases that you just mentioned? Rodney Alcala was the dating game killer that was on the line.

He appeared on the dating game in the late 70s when he was at the height of his murder spree. Oh, and they never found him? No, we eventually found him. But all those years later, that's why you were... No, he got convicted in 79, and then it just kept getting reversed by the California Courts of Appeal, basically.

And so I got it. We had one victim in 1979, Robin Samso, and then it went up to the California Supreme Court, Rosebird reversed it once, retried in the 80s, went convicted again, sentenced to death again, went back up, and then it got gutted by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, where they took out, they essentially,

it's called law of the case, where they find evidence that shouldn't have been admitted, so you can't use it again. So it winds up on my desk and I've got a really good composite and almost nothing else. And then we start getting DNA hits, which was awesome in LA County. And we went up prosecuting him for five.

Oh, so he was never let out and committed more crime. But you figured out that he had killed a bunch more people than the one that he was originally convicted for. He wasn't let out after the first murder he got caught for, but he was let out after kidnapping, raping, and almost killing an eight-year-old named Tally Shapiro in 1968. So he got caught. He got out the back, went to New York.

They found him working in an all-girls summer camp in Vermont and changed his name. He was a graduate of UCLA film school and the guy had a genius level IQ, went to Cantwell. And then, and had also been on the dating game. And in the middle, so he goes to prison, gets out after 34 months and this was a brutal kidnapping and she was in a coma for 32 days. He gets out after 34 months. 34 months. Absolute example of prosecutorial incompetence. Every time I read about it, I get more upset.

But they let him out. He got returned, devalued his parole a bunch of times for essentially grooming kids. And then the lead detective, his estimate, he's now a Superior court judge and a hero, estimates he killed over 100 people. And it was all after he'd been released by the CDC, by the California Department of Corrections.

And that's real. And that's, yeah, it's scary. But anyway, but these- Getting back to- Yeah, sorry, we digress. That these guys are fascinating. Serial killers are fascinating because, like I always sat there like Buffalo Bill,

you know, like when I got into homicide, we've all seen Silence of the Lambs, you know, like this outcast and as the story goes, he's killing women to steal their skin because he wants to wear it. And, you know, and then we've got Hannibal Lecter also in that movie who was killing people to eat them, you know, which are both based on real characters,

but the true blue guys, there's a sexual component. And I have to think, and again, I don't know, I did some commentary for ABC on this, but there has to be, I mean, you look at how pretty all those other young women were. And it's like the old saying, right? Mike Tyson had a quote, "'Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face.

Like best laid plans, never survive, first contact with the enemy. I speculating wildly based on nothing but my own experience, you know, prosecuting these. I bet he went in to get one of them. I'm sure there had to be a sexual component. And then he was surprised by another person in bed that wanted being too loud.

The boyfriend, Ethan, that's a strapping young kid. He was an athlete, he was 6'4". He came down, and it's all speculation. Right. And we'll see what comes out of it. It's kind of like the Ron Goldman. Yeah, that's right. The Ron Goldman came upon what was happening with Nicole

and did an instinctual good guy thing. Right. And it was, you know, whatnot. He was not on the target list. That's right. And neither were those other two kids. I feel sorry for the other roommate downstairs. Both of the girls that survived. I mean, how are you supposed to go back?

Or like, what if just, you know, I was just thinking, like, what if somebody is like, listen, introduce this cube today, and then realizes, like, oh my god, you know, how triggering it must be and how are they supposed to go back to school? How are they supposed to, you know, because there was a lot of speculation, why didn't they do this?

Why didn't they call and you know, and who knows, you know? Yeah, and they were, it was a night of drinking. This is not what they expect. Those girls are innocent. Of course, yeah. But this, the prosecution seems to have it. This is a very good case against Klobogor. That cell phone stuff,

having presented those on murder cases before, that is incredibly powerful evidence. And then his little Hyundai Elantra is seen on video. And he, have you seen the clip of when he got pulled over as he's driving across country with his dad? Yes, yes. And he's driving across country with his dad? Yes, yes. And he's got look in his eyes that, then he was also putting trash in his neighbor's trash can.

Like he's trying to avoid DNA, which is exactly what they're looking for, which is something that a PhD student in criminology would know they were doing. But what I love about it is he was, he's studying criminology, he's studying these cases formally. And if he really did do it, allegedly, allegedly,

he's too stupid to turn off his phone before he left his house. So it's like, I read the surfboard affidavit on this and he's driving towards the location, pinging off the exact same transponders that you would if you were going to the murder scene and then he turns off his phone at like, you know, 1 32 o'clock in the morning

and the timing fits up perfectly. So he is, my prediction on this, he's gonna be convicted, he's gonna be sentenced to death. And Idaho, the difference between there and California is they have, I think they have seven guys on death row. That's a real sentence potentially in Idaho. So it'll be interesting to see what happens. Well, we're gonna end up,

you sent me this photo. This is, are these sharks that I see? Yeah, those are, so I just went to the, that's a place called Wolf Island in the Galapagos. And I just did a live aboard dive trip. And now you're not scared that any of those sharks wanna eat you? So the funny thing about that, so those are hammerheads,

and they accumulate before they migrate. And there were some Galapagos sharks that I don't have pictures of. Those ones were a little bit more scary. The hammerheads are actually really shy. And I love this shot because it's the first time they actually got close enough for me to get a decent photo because they're so afraid of people.

That's insane. There's so many different fishes in this photo and you see the turtle and I went to the Galapagos Island and I couldn't believe the snorkel situation that I saw. It's amazing. It's a trip everybody should try to do. If you like critters or animals or nature, it is. Crazy.

Yeah. So getting back to your book, tell everybody where they can follow you and find you and order it. So it is available now. You can follow me on Matt Murphy Law on Instagram. It is available now on Amazon, Disney Books, and also Barnes and Noble. And there's two ways, you probably know this. There's two ways you can do a second book.

And one is the publisher waits to see how it does. And the other is you can sign up to do one if they're willing to do it based on presales. And I guess I'm announcing this for the first time. I'm in negotiations right now. They're probably gonna get mad at me for saying this. So let's get another book out of him. Get your pre-sale.

You guys know you're gonna love this book because you know him. You are readers. And this adds personal juice, murder juice, and so much more. So good. Yeah, please. I hope everybody likes it.

If you hate it, it's okay to lie to me. Wait, did my quote make it or was it too late? No, no, no, your quote is a part of the online advertising campaign that they're about to start. Good, good. Okay. Well, I'm so happy that you did it and thank you for always coming back on Juicy Scoop

and this was really a great episode. So thank you. Oh, I love being here. So hopefully you'll help me back. Thank you.