Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald - Vanderpump Rules and Co-parenting in Hollywood

Episode Date: November 28, 2024

Vanderpump Rules is over as we know it. Who is in their new cast and what does the future look like for its senior waiter staff? Then I talk to Dr. Drew Pinsky and Gage Edward about narcissism in Hollywood. Gage shares his unique co-parenting situation and how to navigate it going forward. Enjoy!  • Join the 17 million members who are already saving! Start all of your holiday shopping at https://Rakuten.com or download the Rakuten app to start saving today, your Cash Back really adds up! • There’s a limited supply available, so head to https://mycuire.com  to get your leather care kit today. • Get Up to 50% OFF @honeylove by going to https://honeylove.com/JUICY ! #honeylovepod • For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners ten dollars off your first month’s subscription and free shipping when you go to https://Nutrafol.com and enter the promo code JUICYSCOOP. Stand Up Tickets and info: https://heathermcdonald.net/ Subscribe to Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald on iTunes, the podcast app, and get extra juice on Patreon: https://bit.ly/JuicyScoopPodApple  https://www.patreon.com/juicyscoop  Shop Juicy Scoop Merch: https://juicyscoopshop.com  Follow Me on Social Media: Instagram: https://www/instagram.com/heathermcdonald  TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@heathermcdonald  Twitter: https://twitter.com/HeatherMcDonald Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Guys, it's that time. It's holiday shopping. We've got so much to do, so many things to buy. And Rakuten is the best way to save lots of money this holiday season because you can stack holiday sales and deals on top of cash back to maximize your savings at over 3,500 stores. Join the 17 million members who are already saving. Start all of your holiday shopping at Rakuten.com or download the Rakuten app and start saving today. Your cash back really adds up. Heather McDonald has got the Juicy Scoop. When you're on the road, when you're on the go, Juicy Scoop. Happy Thanksgiving. Okay, there to Juicy Scoop. Happy Thanksgiving.

Okay, there's some hot topic update. I'm sure you know what I'm gonna get into. And then I have a great interview I'm excited to share with all of you. So first of all, you've now heard the news. Maybe you haven't, that's why you're here on Juicy Scoop. Vanderpump announced that it is coming back but with an all new cast.

Everybody, nobody that we know. I had heard so many things leading up to this. I had heard that they were meeting with new people. I was at Vanderpump and a bartender told me, I'm auditioning for it. I also heard that they were doing, filming with new people, but with James Kennedy. However, James Kennedy, along with Ariana and Lala and Sheena and many people,

posted within hours of the news that they are grateful for Vandermomp Rules, are excited for the next chapter, they had the slideshows of their favorite photos and videos from the last decade, or however long they were on. I may or may not have knowledge that this was coming, from the last decade or however long they were on. I may or may not have knowledge that this was coming, and I think that was a fair thing to do as producers to let these, you know, icons of Vanderpump Rules

know that this announcement was coming, and so that they could not be blindsided, gather their photos and whatever together so that their announcement can be the way they want it to be. And so this will be interesting. I mean, this is what we have complained about, that it has changed. They're not still waiters. A lot of people say, how, we don't like the new Rony. How could the new Vanderpump keep our interest? the new Werner Pup to keep our interest. I think this is a genius move on the side of the producers,

because so many of them are friends with the Valley cast. Jackson and Brittany have broken up. That's gonna be very juicy to watch. It's sad, but it's gonna be super intriguing. People like these shows because they can relate. They can relate to parenting. They can relate to co-parenting, they can relate to breakups and relationships changing.

And The Valley has been so open and honest about that. We like their new friends that we are not familiar with. Kristen Doty just announced she's pregnant. She's engaged and she's pregnant. And good for Kristen Doty. She was fired along with Stassi and Jackson Brittany a few years ago. Stassi's off doing great on her own, doing her own thing. She's got her own show coming out.

She's going to be on the Vanderpump Villa as well. And then now Kristen is really on the show that is probably the most anticipated Bravo show this year, The Valley. And Brittany and Stacey and Lala are really great friends. They're mom friends as well as being old friends. Their kids go to the same school. There's gonna be activities and things. I'm sure they're making many appearances. Also, this means for the Valley producers

that they're not probably going to play playing hardball about, hey, Tom Schwartz, want to come to this party over at Jack's condo or do you want to come to Cruz's fourth birthday party? We'll pay you this amount. They want to stay in it. And they really are friends. Schwartz's condo is very close to Jack's, which is very close in the valley to his restaurant and also to Brittany and Cruz's house now. So I think, um, it was a brilliant move on the producers. I don't think they were, you know, they knew this was going to be an issue. We saw the way it ended. We knew that real friendships were not what they once were. Many of these players were not hanging out with each other anymore and really didn't

want to like Ariana and Tom Sandoval. So I think we're going to see many of them make appearances. And then as that show grows, it could really evolve into something really juicy. In the meantime, I wish them all the best with all their endeavors. They are all famous. They all have huge followings and different businesses and streams of income.

So it will be a really interesting thing to see what happens with Bravo, because as I said, it looks like that mini fan fest was not a huge hit. And will BravoCon happen in September or next year? Whenever will it happen? Will it happen in Vegas? If we don't have New Jersey happening with those icons

so that we can actually be interested in the panels, if they just come on and tell about the old shit that they've been saying at every city winery and a live show, I don't think that's that interesting. It's only going to be interesting because we're watching it. So if we don't have New Jersey to talk about, the OGs of Rooney to talk about, I don't know. Is there enough? And now the Vanderpump kids aren't going to be there. I still call them kids. And if they're only one season in, I don't know how super interested we're going to be. I mean, it took us years to get to know the cast,

but as far as the new cast, I wish them the best. I think this is kind of exciting. What made Vanerpump so relatable was these people were real friends. They were really struggling actors. They said yes to this reality show, hoping that it would lead to bigger things. And you know what it did.

It really did. But that's what the LA life was like 15 years ago. Does it still reflect that with social media and ways for people to instantly kind of become famous via TikTok or Instagram? I don't know, but I think it's a really smart move for the production company of both The Valley and Vanderpump Rules and for Lisa Vanderpump. And so let's see, you know, let's see what happens. You know, DJ James Kennedy has a huge career already doing really well with DJing.

So there could be almost little mini reality shows, if not on TV, on different, you know, YouTube or whatever, where we really, where these people kind of put their own production companies together and follow their own lives and their own friends. And so I'm really, I'm excited to see where all of this goes. All right, you guys, I want to remind you that a lot of people will say, gosh, you know, I wish I could listen to Juicy Scoop without ads. You can.

If you're listening to this on Apple, that is what the Apple subscription is for. You will get all the Tuesday and Thursday shows ad free, as well as all of the back episodes of the Tuesdays and Thursdays show. That is different. Apple subscription offers you that and Patreon offers you more of a community in talking and sharing, which is even going to get bigger. So those are the differences and a lot of people belong to both for those reasons. So I wanted to explain that, and you just do that Apple subscription,

you'll get this whole thing ad free. And now I am gonna share something that was shared on my Friday paid platform, which I will share now. It got a lot of conversation going. It was really positive for the two interview guests that were part of it, Dr. Drew and Gage Edward. And people could relate to it as far as co-parenting, past relationships, moving forward, healing oneself. But also when there's been many years of where you've been portrayed or discussed on a big public platform and you haven't responded until now, I think that was really important.

I think it's going really well and you probably will have some questions after this. I've been receiving the questions since I posted it on Friday's Patreon. I will be addressing those questions and curiosities on tomorrow's Patreon. And I will be addressing those questions and curiosities on tomorrow's Patreon, which you can get at heathermcdahl.net. So there you go. Have a great Thanksgiving. And here's my interview with Dr. Drew Pinsky and Gage Edward.

Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. Well, this is gonna be a real juicy one. It's something that we've talked a lot about on the show. You hear a lot of people talk about narcissism and how many people are narcissistic. We hear they talk about it on reality shows, everywhere, and also how hard it might be if you are co-parenting with who you believe might be a narcissist or at least have many of the traits. So I am here with my friend of 15 years, Gage Edwards, who he is a father and he is co-parenting, which anyone knows is never even the best situation.

It's not necessarily easy. And then we're also here with my dear friend, Dr. Drew, who has written a book on narcissism. That book came out about 15 years ago too, right? Yeah, about that. We saw it coming. Yeah, yeah. So what was it called? What is it called? It was called The Mirror Effect, but it was built, do you know how that happened, that book? We did research on celebrities. It was the only published research in history. All there was all this speculation

about celebrities and narcissism. No one had ever studied them. Well, because a celebrity came on our radio show every night, we gave them a narcissistic inventory for like 250 of them. And we were able to document that lo and behold, people that are musicians and comedians and particularly reality show participants, high, high levels of narcissism.

Very interesting. Okay, so Gage, tell us a little bit about your background and why this definitely pertains to what Dr. Drew wrote about. Well, I think that in the last few years, so I was in a relationship for over a decade. At eight years, we had our daughter, who's now eight years old.

Two years after she was born, the relationship just disintegrated. And in the five years of sort of the aftermath of that decade long, highly public relationship, there was a lot of obviously processing trying to. I had also run his business, you know, created multiple streams of income together, product lines, all of these things, we were completely enmeshed and was reliant on that. And when the relationship abruptly ended one night,

it took a couple more months of business not working out together, obviously, in hindsight. And it just got to a breaking point where that also wouldn't work. So then I was thrust into the last five years of recreating who I was at 33, starting over, fighting for custody. She had lived for her two years in our family home and then, you know, it was the trying to sort it out without legal intervention and then, you know, defending myself through all of that. I think that there were two key elements in the failure of that decade-long relationship and she was, she was the impetus to one of them because it was highly documented and shown on TV and

all of it. And I think I was a little bit blind and disoriented in that I didn't see what was going on. And to be fair, I don't think that he changed. I think I changed. And I think that's what led to the end of the relationship because suddenly the way I was spoken to daily, the way things were handled, all of which were on a TV show already. Like it's not like, oh my gosh,

that just something morphed and changed. It wasn't that, it was that now there were a set of eyes and both of you as parents, your kids are mimicking all behavior. They're mimicking how you speak, all of it. I'm gonna interrupt you, because there's already a lot going on. A lot, a lot.

Well, I just wanna say one thing about the TV show, which still you can watch for free on all these streamers or you buy the streamers. And I don't know anything about anything. I come as a virgin novice. So I'll just tell you, so his ex-partner was on a TV show for many, many years. From a juicy scoob standpoint, isn't it

crazy how no relationships ever survive reality cameras? It doesn't. It's just crazy. It really doesn't. And part of what you were saying made me think, not only are you seeing things through the eyes of your daughter, but you're literally seeing things as they occur on TV. Because it's that reliving and revivifying of things

that I hear people talk about when their relationships fall apart because of TV. It's like, oh, we dealt with that a long time ago, and here it is back again. And I can't deny it anymore. And just one of the scenes that I recall from the show after their daughter was born was his ex-partner was getting very heated about something,

which is what made him a memorable reality show character. Always, right? Yeah. And, but, this is your partner and your co-parent and everything, and he's speaking to Gage and he's like, if you messed up this one thing, like, and what is the point of having you? What is the value of having you? And I was like, I don't understand. It wasn't just that, it was that if I have people

taking care of our daughter and you're not doing this in the business, what is your value to me? Yes. And that was as the parent of, I don't know, she was probably six or nine somewhere months old at this point, where it's just like, you know, you asked me before about that and it's like, what did you think in that moment? And I thought in that moment was,

this is, I'm already here mentally, I'm already thinking this, but I've got cameras on me. And these are parts of the end. This is, this won't, this isn't sustainable. It's actually a really heartbreaking story. It's terrible because it's also something she can then go watch. I feel what he's feeling.

It's like, oh my goodness. I also feel because this was, you know, we really hadn't seen a relationship between two men raising a daughter, which I thought is great. Why I saw that and why it's been in my head for many years is because the audience of your show and his subsequent show, which is just a radio show with video component, is the audience is again, predominantly female and it doesn't seem like anybody sees how hypocritical that is. If we saw a man speaking to his partner who is a woman,

who is the main caregiver of the child, we would be horrified. Like we watch A Housewife and the guy's like, get your own coffee and that guy is crucified, divorce that, you know, whatever. And I, so I think that's like an interesting element of two of just like in the perception of watching these people's lives for entertainment, sitting back and being like, oh, I never really thought of it like that and how unfair that is. What I have thought is that with the people

that are in our lives now, my relationship now, our two kids, that kind of personality and the way that is sort of spoken to me indirectly through another means of media, I would never have someone like that in my life. You would not be allowed to be my friend in that time period. Let's hear Drew's analysis a little bit.

So Liz, I need a lot more information. And some of you may not be able to give me. Sure. Because I don't want you to divulge anything that would hurt anybody or be uncomfortable for you or anything, but you did say that one night it collapsed. Yes. Was there a discovery or something?

I had started seeing a therapist, and a therapist that in particular works with gay men, and was referred by another gay friend couple that had gone through some stuff, and I had been seeing him for probably four or five weeks. We were in a tough spot, I think a very transitional time, that the relationship was morphing into something that I also was not okay with.

And so I started seeing a therapist sort of talk through. You understand that's vague, right? What's vague? It was morphing into something I was not okay with. It just wasn't the, it wasn't the, it wasn't what I signed up for. It was on a personal level. You're using code.

I think I understand the code. I don't know if I want to out the code. Yeah, but your code is probably, you know. Right, but that's just another problem here too. Okay. Right, more than just personality. Well, I don't know what that problem is, but I'll tell you what it is.

Well, it is. Was there infidelity problem? I think that there was, it has been said. Yes or no? Was that part of the collapse that night? Or was that where it might have led to? Yeah. Like it wasn't your traditional family view of what you, the trajectory of your life was

more similar to what you were raised in and this was going in a path, even though you're gay, going into a path that you were not. You didn't want. I didn't want. And you know, it was said really loudly after, which I think.

And I don't know anything about anything. Yeah, but I think that it was said after, you know, very publicly that a lot of people have the perception that I had cheated in this relationship. And I had not. What I see, what I hear from you is this extreme codependency, right? And did your therapist put names to what you were struggling with? Did he or she tell you kind of how to understand or have you learned since? Well, what I had said is that I need basically a break.

And we're in this for over 10 years at this point. Because of mistreatment? Yes, and I needed to sort of back away for a second to get some perspective and clarity of I can't be pummeled and just constantly. And I, you know, to be honest, I didn't want to be intimate anymore. He spoke about that.

My feeling was I don't like how this is going and I can't even become intimate with you even though we've been together for a decade. And by the way, you described your new friends in really interesting language that suggests actual intimacy, I mean physically, I mean emotionally. So you for some reason had an intimacy problem.

You were attracted to things that were not intimate, but were intense. Yeah. And were dramatic and interesting and fun and all those things, but not intimate. Yeah. And as things started unraveling, it was not working for you. Yeah. And then it collapsed, right? But you stayed together for six months?

This all happened in the course of the final year. Okay. But you were still together, working together, trying to, trying to make things work. Yeah, we were intensely working together. for six months? This all happened in the course of the final year. Okay. But you were still together, working together, trying to make things work. We were intensely working together. We were trying to make things work or were you trying to get things- Working as in we physically worked together. A lot of people described it as it was a much better business relationship and it seemed

transactional. Were you trying to unravel the- I was not. He was leaving. I felt like it was a feeling. I don't want to out any stuff here, but so what is it, so it's the sort of the mistreatment that we're talking about.

Yeah, and I no longer felt, you know what it really was is I no longer felt safe and I no longer felt protected in the physical relationship of it all. And then you compound that with now you've got a one and two year old, not yet looking at you, but soaking everything up and learning language and learning body language and learning my longer term fear was that

I'm trying to teach you to be a strong, confident woman and she's gonna look at me and be like, yeah, but what if the television show, for instance, continued, how did you tell me that I should be a strong, confident woman when he's saying what he says about you daily? And that sense continued for five years. Which is a classic reason why a lot of women feel they have to leave once their child does

get to a certain age. Because they see it. In real life. No, in real life. Like why women leave? Because they have that aha moment where they're like, how can I raise my daughter when she sees what I'm putting up with and being treated? Or I have friends that got too deep.

They realized it, they didn't do anything, and now the kids are 10, teens, whatever it is and they're like, it's just a few more years to get them launched into college. But I also wonder, seeing the effects of that, I can now see that in those older kids that they have. Like, okay, and now do you notice who her boyfriend is? That daughter's boyfriend? Does it look a lot like your relationship? And it does. And that's what people do.

That's what humans do. They repeat the patterns of the past. Especially when they're negative and traumatizing. Yeah. It was the opposite of what you would think, but that's how we work as humans. And in a way, I felt like at two, if this does fall apart,

it actually is kind of an ideal age. Yeah. Because really, what is her recollection memory of us being in the same house and now two houses? Anyways, so that's what sort of led to it and where I felt like, again, it just, it was that those set of eyes were an issue for me and in the aftermath of five years later,

I could not be the dad that I am today in the same environment. Guys, it's that time, it's holiday shopping, we've got so much to do, so many things to buy and Rakuten is the best way to save lots of money this holiday season because you can stack holiday sales and deals on top of cash back to maximize your savings at over 3,500 stores. Stores will be at the highest cash back rates of the year, all the way up to 15% cash back at some of your favorite brands

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including fashion, beauty, electronics, home essential, travel, dining, and so much more. Plus, membership is free and it's so easy to sign up. Join the 17 million members who are already saving. Start all of your holiday shopping at Rakuten.com or download the Rakuten app and start saving today. Your cash back really adds up. Ladies and gentlemen. What are you doing? What do you mean? Just keep it simple.

I'm making the promo. Just keep it simple. Just say, hey, we're the Brav Bros, two guys that talk about Bravo. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, we're the Brav Bros. No. Dude, stop with the voice.

Just keep it simple. I've seen promos on TV, dude. This! Dude, stop with the voice. Just keep it simple. I've seen promos on TV, dude. This is how you get the fans engaged. This is how you get listeners. We're trying to get listeners here. If we just say, oh, we're two dudes that talk about Bravo, people are going to get tired of it already. We need some oomph.

All right, then fine. Let's try to do it with your voice. Braav Bros. Good job. Hey, everybody. My name is Bob the Drag Queen. And I'm on Xchange. And we are the host of Sibling Rivalry. This is the podcast where two best friends gab, talk smack

and have a lot of fun with our black queer selves. Yeah, for sure. You know, we are family. So we talk about everything, honey, from why we don't like hugs to Black Lives Matter, to interracial dating, to other things. Right, Bon? Yes. And it gets messy and we are not afraid to be wrong.

So please join us over here at Silver Ivory, available anywhere you get your podcast. You can listen and subscribe for free. For free, honey. But in my home, it's actual play dates at our house. It's play dates out with other kids. It's families that I respect the women, the wives, the mothers, the husbands, their relationships. And I can watch where, you know, the husband will walk into a room at the end of a play date

in the evening and come up and kiss his wife. And she's peering around the corner watching this engagement. Your daughter is. Yeah, she's watching to see it. So I feel comfortable in how she is in this environment that she's learning the social, sort of the social skills, but also how to be treated. To then notice when you're not being treated well. And Heather, I told you this the other day, but one of the biggest things for me in being a parent, and I don't need, I'm not here to say,

oh my God, you're a great parent. You're not, I don't need the accolades. The one thing reality TV taught me was that you don't believe the good and you don't believe the bad, because I'm probably never gonna know you anyway. So you can say I'm the most handsome person. You can say I'm the ugliest person. I don't know you, because I'm probably never gonna know you anyway. So you can say I'm the most handsome person. You can say I'm the ugliest person. I don't know you.

You're not in my orbit. But what became kind of my thought process in parenting, and especially for having a daughter, is that I want you to be kind and respectful because to me the education part, unless you're a doctor or you're gonna be an engineer, lawyer, your kindness and you just being a great human gets you real far in life. Yeah. And so if you're kind and respectful, you will attract that kind of person.

I tell her this, she's only eight, but I tell her. Did you stay in therapy after... I didn't. That therapist really didn't know my ex, but really didn't like him. And I was like, you know, I think this is about, and he said, my mother was a narcissist, and I see it, and I didn't fully process what he was saying then.

But your mother. No, his, the therapist. Oh, the therapist's mother. And I was like, okay, we're talking. And so that was the first time someone thought maybe your ex could be this. Correct, and I didn't, and it took me years later where I started to think, like, gosh, what he said, that's really interesting.

Because at the time, I thought, no, I don't know. But back to your original question, sorry. The thing with parenting, just to wrap that up, and she's now noticing it with schoolmates. She's noticing that. So I thought, you know what? That lesson to me is so important. She's becoming such an interesting person

that I couldn't have done that in that same environment. So I think that the benefit of this ending is that I am able to parent her how I would like to, and that's been good for her. Of course. To the end, what happened was, to your question about what caused that night, the therapist said, you need space.

I said, I do need space. And I'm not exiting this relationship, but I need space. And he said, you need to go in and tell him you're gonna be staying in the guest room. You have space in the home to do that? Yes, I do. And I told him, I said, he's not gonna like that. It's not gonna go over well at all. And he said, well's not going to like that. It's not going to go over well at all.

And he said, well, then you have your answer. Because he said, what do you want to do? I said, I don't want to leave the relationship. I don't right now. I need to like step back. And as soon as I told him, get your shit, go to hotel. And we in 10 years had never done that. And do you think it's because you asserted your stance for the first time and he felt the control was lost? And that's a question for you too, Drew. Why is it that, you know?

It makes me wonder, there's called cluster B personality disorders, right? Which are the narcissistic disorders. Borderline sociopath, narcissist. And let me just say, one of the things that has happened in the last 50 years is we've all developed narcissistic traits. The three of us have them. There just is pervasive.

That's the pandemic. And is that because everyone has an Instagram account? Because everyone takes selfies. Because everybody's on our photos. Is narcissism how we look in the mirror? Is it that we want to be pretty? No, no, no, no. It's deficiencies in childhood. Is narcissism how we look at it in the mirror? Is it that we want to be pretty? Is it? No, no, no, no.

It's deficiencies in childhood. And maybe because everybody's working and everybody's busy and kids are abandoned or left to caretaker, whatever it is. To care for ourselves or go to daycare and all that, which didn't really exist 50 years ago. That's what you're saying. And then also the television and the social media.

I mean, it's just been one thing after another. So I watched it. When I started working at psychiatric hospital in 1985, there was not a lot of narcissism. By 92, only narcissists. And Cluster B was being admitted to our hospital only. And from then on. So it just came in the late 80s.

At the time, I thought, oh, it's because of all the abuse of the kids. Cause there was a lot of sexual abuse, physical abuse, neglect, a ton after the seventies, the seventies perpetrated all over the place, but I think it was even more than that. So this trend has happened. It's happened worldwide and in cluster B, some of those personalities have a deep preoccupation with abandonment. And so the fact that you said, I've got to move away

felt like an abandonment and he has to sabotage in the face of that. And that's something that he's spoken a lot about. And a lot of times in an argument would be, well, you know, that's the fear of abandonment that I have. So that moves his personality a certain direction. But a lot of people have that.

And it can be, it's why people sabotage relationships relationships it's a fucking fear of abandonment is a mess it was relationships all over the place and it makes people volatile and irregularly dysregulated it's a mess so we're in that zone here but I guess in that zone what I've kind of noticed it's almost like the person that I sense you're gonna break up with me, so I'm just gonna jump the gun. Exactly, because they can't deal with the abandonment. So they'd rather sabotage than have you abandoned. So they're in control of the lives.

Right, but I also feel like sometimes there is an element where they also create chaos because they can control the chaos. They can almost start, whether it's a triangulation with people, this is something that has been witnessed by a lot of people in this five years that I'm watching it and I'm like, it's very similar to this situation and that situation. And all of that over the time that we were together, it keeps going. And when you step back away from it, I'm watching it. I bring these things up again to open up the conversation

to people that may be going through this, but not knowing it and not being aware, but also because there is our daughter in the middle of this too. And I'm wondering and I'm starting to see ways that this is manifesting in her and some of her behavior that has become kind of interesting. OK, so I think you sort of talked

about triangles and chaos. And I think you're talking about splitting behaviors. This one's all good. This one's all bad. Pit them against each other. Yes, yes. That's a split. I've watched that happen so many times

with a lot of people. But when you talk about splitting behaviors, you you have can you give a hypothetical example? Because I don't really understand what you mean. It comes from Mom, I want an ice cream you go. No, you just had ice cream three hours ago. No more ice cream Dad mom says I can have some ice cream. Is that okay? And and by the way, she's really mad or something, where they pits two of you against each other to get your way. Oh, for a kid to get the way, okay.

But it starts in childhood. Got it, okay. Well, splitting of mom, dad, and in early in life, we kind of can see things as all good and all bad. This is what's, I mean, look at what's in social media today, people freaking out, it's all bad, it's all good. That is pathological. Nothing is all good and all bad. It's all good. That is pathological. Nothing is all good and all bad.

Everything is sort of gradations. But children see things all good, all bad. Certain personality styles see things all good, all bad. The splitting behavior is sort of a way of, it's sort of what's going on inside of them. And it's also a way of getting their way, as you said, using the chaos, using the drama of the split. But what I want to tell you is you're seeing

splitting behavior, how old's your daughter now? She's eight. It's normal for an 11 or 12 year old to start doing that stuff. It's an adolescent thing. Is she in puberty or pre-puberty or anything? No. Okay, so be careful, tell her to just, you know.

I think that is very hard and I've talked about it on the show and I had it with my daughter, McKinsey, and I understand in California on the show, and I had it with my daughter, Mackenzie. And I understand in California, they really wanna get both parents like 50-50. And, but it is so, if a parent can see that they're not losing any control as a relationship and know that it's just, I believe a lot, talk to any kid that's like over 25

that had to live in two homes. And they'll say what, and you ask them, what was the hardest part about your parents' divorce? It wasn't like, oh, I wish they were together. It's like going from house to house, having the clothes, forgetting the book, da da da da, and then really rich people will have two soccer uniforms and they will do all that and have three school uniforms.

It's still hard. It still really is hard. And I almost feel like the old school way of every weekend or every other weekend and Wednesday nights and things like that. I remember one of my friends, Jill Zarin, she said that they were supposed to share more like 50-50 with her daughter, who's now 32, Allie. And the husband said, I don't think this is working. I think that she should, and to this day, the three of them all work together. And she's gotten remarried and blah, blah, and it's like, and the relationship did not suffer because the physical time was different. But I see that that's a trend,

and it's part of the legal system, especially in California, kind of starting with giving men more rights, which I agree with, the traditional father role. But I do think it's very hard on a kid when they're that age. I agree, be aware of that, I agree with you. But I'm interested in your missing the signs, your denial, your compartmental.

My role. Well, it's interesting because when we think about it, we want to help other people see these things. That's something you could help folks with. Because that's a really common thing. When you idealize somebody else, when you subjugate your own feeling states, when you deny what's actually happening, when you minimize, when you compartmentalizeize these are all strategies that people use. Yeah, and I

Obviously not aware of that at the time and again as you look back to as I go back to being 23 Starting this relationship. This was sort of a larger than life personality that suddenly had an interest in me also and So it fueled your narcissism. It ju... Maybe it did. And in this process, I've always thought, like, am I the narcissist? Like, am I the...

What, what out of this? Cause it is, I've, I'm moved on. I have a great set of people. I have a great relationship. You have real relationships now. Yeah, yeah. And you said it, not me. But that's what you're doing. Stable intimacy. Kind relationships. Use that word. Kindness

is something that people look for when they come out of something like this. It's interesting because I went on a few dates with some pretty high profile people in the time and I really didn't have a serious relationship until the one I'm in now, which started two years ago. So three years of just like surface level stuff. And I immediately picked up, I'm like, nope, not you. What do you think of my personality based on what you see on Instagram? What's your perception? Like, are you kidding?

That's what they would ask you on the date, yeah. This, yeah. And I was like, you know, this is, let's wrap up dinner and this is, we're good, we don't need to talk. But anyways, so I started like, you know, this is let's wrap up dinner and this is we're good. I don't we don't need to talk. Yeah. But anyways, but so I started to notice those things. But in the last couple of years, I really thought what was my where was my headspace at? Yeah. And again, there were good things that came from it. But it also that was 10 years of my life. And I think that some people look at like I don't feel made it work for 10 years. I made it work for 10 years. I learned a lot.

But I think a lot of people probably look at it like I don't feel. But you made it work for 10 years. I made it work for 10 years. I learned a lot, but I think a lot of people probably look at it like I was robbed. And now I'm, especially women, it's like, you get into your 40s and I have friends that are like, those were my good years. I'm like, that's so crazy because you have so much ahead of your time. Women saying that.

Yeah, like I felt robbed in my 15 years or 20 years of marriage and it, whatever. But in my case, what I felt like, I don't know that my mom had full narcissistic tendencies, but what she did was if there was an argument, and I was a middle child, if there was an argument, she would shut down. Her way of communication was shut down.

And I felt like I became, looking back in childhood, I became the middle child that, is everyone okay? Is dad okay? Is dad okay? Are you okay? Are you mad at my older brother? Why are you mad at him? Really getting into the mix of it, to where now with my daughter,

it's very easy for me to sink into that, like I'm just gonna shut down because it's how I know how to communicate. I do not. I probably overly communicate. Anyways, when all through childhood, I became that sort of like- Caretaker, peacemaker.

Yeah, peacemaker more than anything. Was your mom an alcoholic too? No, she was not. And then I think at an early age when I met him, here's this like magnetic personality, very successful, like just sort of in awe a little bit. He was running business. And fame, and famous. Well, the fame was, I think, a part of it,

but it also was like, there was just, I come from an entrepreneurial family. This guy is just making stuff happen. He's hustling. He's been hustling. He's older than me. Wasn't anything I was attracted to. Like that wasn't what I was,

I had never dated anybody older. It was really my first real relationship with him. And so I realized that I felt like there was comfort because very quickly what happened, we moved in pretty quick. We were completely together, you know, and then shortly into it, you start to get little things where you're thrown into a little bit of disarray.

And it's- These are the signs you were talking about. Yeah, and I think it's even- What were the signs? I think the things I can talk to are probably more on the show, that were on TV, where it's like, you've done it- Meaning you're comfortable talking about something

that's already public. Yes. Okay. Because also, at the end of the day, we still have a daughter together, and there's parts where it's like, I don't understand how end of the day, I still, we still have a daughter together. And there's parts of it where it's like, I don't understand how you've said what you've said, because eventually I would assume she hears these things.

And I don't, anyways, these are things she could watch. Yeah, about me and the aftermath of this has been a true nightmare. But these are things she can go watch on TV and be like, oh, okay. But it's to the point of what you said, like, I'm not sure what your value is, yet we're running a very successful, very successful business.

And then you're saying this stuff just ripping me apart at my core. And those moments throw me into, and at that particular moment, we have a newborn daughter. We are, for the first time, actually completely locked in for her life, or the rest of our lives. We didn't really have that. I was never any ownership in the business. I was never any ownership of any of the real estate, none of it. And so you then say that and we're not married, but that's a life commitment. And now you're throwing us into this disarray

where I'm just disoriented and I'm kind kind of blacked out like what we're in this now we're in this for that argument probably happened at eight or nine years in and it's public and I'm gonna have to relive it in three months he's talking about the moment in the car from from the TV show that I always remember when I think about how cruel it was when he says, what's the value of you? If you didn't do this and I have a nanny, and what's the point of even having you here?

I see, so you're just something to be exploited. Yeah, and I think early in the relationship, if I had my own family issues at that time, didn't really have a friend group around, you don't talk about the relationship outside of the relationship, which I think is problematic when people don't. I think now talking, I have a friend that listened to this

and she's like, dude, what the fuck? Like what? All that was going on? And so I think whenever you start to isolate and get away from people that could be third-party to just say, Hey, just so you know, that's weird. It's a weird situation. You don't have to be that. But I got into that and then it would be just sort of blown up. There'd be an explosion of stuff. And then I'm like thinking, fuck, I'm like 25, I'm 26. like what? I am fully in this. And it almost is, when I'm fully in that,

how I felt was that it wasn't like, I guess it was kind of trapped, but it's how are you that upset about something that I think now is this all ending? Like what happens to me? What happens to what I've thrown and invested all this time and this commitment to- So it's all these other considerations

kept you in longer than you should have been. Well, and then I found myself just figuring out how to make it work. And then I ended up my- Did you ever think about getting treatment as a couple? We did at times, but it was with his therapist. He has a therapist. It wasn't like a third party.

Was it ever on the show? Yes. That's always great, right? Therapy on TV. Ooh. I mean,'s always great, right? Yeah. Therapy on TV. I mean, it's okay, but... Then have the whole world then chime in too. That's the other thing that I think as someone who's studied reality TV, because I love it

and I talk about it so much. And that's why, because it's very fascinating, especially now with social media, whether it's just a podcast or radio show or TV show, people can get to you and write to you and say, like, you were wrong, you did this, you're, you know, really nasty things. And even if you don't want to go to that site, somehow it slips into the DM or someone who thinks they're doing you a favor says, oh, Gage, I just want you to know what was said about you today. And I have that, and I'm like,

I didn't really need to know, but I like the recap. I can't, I physically cannot listen, even if they send me clips, unless it's real bad, I can't even listen to it, because it's so hard. That's all abandonment stuff and narcissistic rage. Narcissistic rage is afoot, everybody. Well, I mean, there's a lot of that. And what I don't understand in that

and sort of doing this open therapy session with you, I don't understand how, going back to what you said, a male-female relationship with a mom, a wife that's now an ex-wife, the berating that goes on about, you should have never been on the birth certificate. Because you're not the biological father. That's a common thread.

So he's not the biological father, his partner is. But also- And then they got a surrogate and an egg donor. So that gets thrown a lot towards his direction and by fans. By a lot of fans. Who are women, which I just find shocking. I think that's, it makes me embarrassed to be a woman,

that you would look at a gay father and because he's not the biological dad, somehow think he's less than, because you're such a fan of this personality. But that's, am I doing the math correctly? But that's always gonna be somebody in a gay relationship with a child. Correct. Correct.

And a lot of, they're being homophobic by saying that. They think that they're being supportive of this gay man, because that's who they listen to every day. But they're not. They're like, they're so, they're not even seeing how wrong and hypocritical is, you know. And the worst thing, the world is for a child to have a deep relationship with somebody and then it rupture and vanish.

The child feels responsible for that. Correct. And I don't care who the biological father is. That's gonna damage the child. So like that's, of the multitude of things that have gone on, that has been a really strong narrative of even as of I I think, last week, worst regret was putting him on the birth certificate.

Like you had, this was IVF. Like, there was not a discussion. We were both, father one, father two in the state of California. Let me flip it around. It's just like that, I don't understand how you could treat someone and talk like that. Is there a way that this relationship could have worked?

Anyway, and that has been said publicly by your ex. how you could treat someone and talk like that. Is there a way that this relationship could have worked? Anyway, and that has been said publicly by your ex. I wish I hadn't have put him on the... I mean, more than a dozen times. As of recently. Cultivate the word whatever. Whatever. Yeah. Of course he feels that, because he's having pain,

he doesn't like the abandonment, he doesn't like the hassle, whatever, whatever. That's interesting. Whatever. Yeah. It's all craziness. But is there a way this could have worked out? I mean, could he have gotten, are there

things he could have softened? I mean, again, I hate- You mean as having a better co-parenting relationship, or worked out staying together? You know, if you're- Romantically staying together. Yeah, could there is, I mean, would there were, you could have seen him realistically and he softened some of his splitting that it could have worked out?

I know. Because? Because to me, and I actually think this enraged him more personally. She became the priority. For you. Yeah. And because she became the priority. You've said that many times already. I couldn't, and I know now,

there was something I got at the time, but I know now, I look at my daily life with her. I absolutely could not do that with her if I was still in that relationship, and that became more important. Even if he had softened his stuff. There's not a world that exists that, it's even that I'm criticized that I don't work enough. I don't have a job I don't all these things that's this narrative that they've created that's completely inaccurate down to she takes the bus now that became a whole recent episode that

He then had wanted to control how sure transportation was to get to school yet I'm thinking dude you're lucky that I have a job that technically I have a window of time, but it's really crucial. I'm actually at the office working during that exact time because it's East Coast hours. So in the morning, it's like, you want to control that. I don't work enough, but then work more and do this and do that. And that environment was consistent For the whole time so being a parent and doing the parental things I like to do with her that I think are helping her. I would never be in that relationship

Because of that thing just light funniness of the Taking the bus. Okay, first of all, you know, he has hired help to take her to school in a car. So now she's going on a bus of, this is not dropping her off on Ventura Boulevard to get on the RTD by herself and go to Koreatown. Like this is a private school that provides small, cute, safe buses.

Because there's people, people that don't live in LA don't know, but there's people from all corners of it, and there's traffic, and so it works out. Okay, these people meet at this corner, and their kid goes on, and they have a little fun. So, but that is drama for content for the show. And then people like, so this gets shared on his show.

So hold on, so hold on. Yeah. I'm Louie, AKA the baddest perra. And I'm Yoazi. And we're siblings. We might not be the most intelligent. Or the smartest. Or inteligentes.

You just said that. Oh yeah. But at least we're pretty. You may have seen our viral challenge videos, Mexican food mukbangs and family vlogs. But did you know we're also the hosts of the podcast Pretty Not Smart? On our show, we expose all the chisme in our lives, from our wildest dating stories to childhood feuds to our scary ghost stories. But don't worry. It's not all drama all the time. We discuss financial hardship,

the importance of taking care of your mental health, and our experiences dealing with complicated family relationships. Because we're siblings, we know each other better than anyone, which means we also know how to beef with each other like it's nobody's business. Who doesn't love listening in

on a little sibling conflict? We've also had some amazing guests join the show, like YouTubers Adam Ray and Laura Mellado, and so many more. At the end of the day, I'm happy to be the pretty one, and you'll have to be the smart one. No, it's definitely the other way around. And who told you that lie? Ask the audience.

So if you want to hear the juicy perspectives of two pretty siblings, tune into Pretty Not Smart. Available wherever you get your podcasts. So, so on one hand, when I hear these stories, I think, well, he's in pain too, and he's got rage and he's acting it out and blah, blah, blah. You as the codependent tend to act in, he acts out, right? Yeah. But you're saying that he's continuing to exploit Gage just for content.

All we've told you is all, yeah. I mean, in my opinion, when I think about how many episodes Gage has been mentioned over the last five years since they've broken up, I would say it's 300 to 400 episodes. It's not just him acting out his stuff. With his name and everything because he. But he wants to hurt him because he's hurting too. And that's again, so that's what I feel.

Right. I also feel like in a way, I feel like, and again, I have my core group of people, right? But I feel like in a way, the intention is to get ahead of what could possibly be the truth coming out. And I'm going to accuse you of things that maybe I did, so that if you came back and said, I did those things, it looks like it's a tit for tat childhood argument. Like, no, you did that. No, you did that.

And I feel like there's been this like, and I don't fully get it, because I don't need to be in the limelight that this entertainment has been his business for 15 plus years. Go do it. That's your thing, great. But at the expense of me, you know, to say that three or 400 episodes,

like you're building a career off of talking shit about me. That's a little pathetic on one hand, but also it is almost like this intentional way to just destroy any credibility that I could have because of a fear that if what really went on came out, it would be, I just feel like I'm under attack constantly with the person I'm supposed to compare with. I would need more information to be able to respond to that.

That's where I feel like the rubber hits the road. Whatever that is that you want to talk about, I feel like there's a lot there. And so we're talking about personality styles and other things, but there's something else. There's something missing. You can tell me off the air, whatever. I mean, I just think in the world that we live in,

and in reality TV, there's a lot of storylines and whatnot that the girls get back to filming and they're like, you went on Juicy Scoop and said, I didn't come to your party because I thought it was lame, whatever, and that happened. And then that becomes like a little storyline. That's one thing- That's so crazy.

To listen to one or two podcasts where maybe someone talks bad about you that either you make up with or you're like, why is that person talking about me? But when I think about Gage's situation, to have every moment of their custody issues, their daily pickups, that an hour was changed, whatever, and then have people that are also being paid to be there as co-hosts chime in to please their

boss who's paying them. Which makes sense. To say, well, I don't know what's wrong with Gage. He clearly has issues or it's clearly, you know, these people aren't therapists. These aren't, or the therapists you have, I don't really agree with, but whatever. And I just, you know, I'm like, when I did kind of like the math and I was like, how many episodes do you think

while you're no longer on TV and no longer on your own radio show and just trying to like be a dad and have your business, how many times do you think you're talked about and mentioned? And I've seen even where someone's like, the only time the show is interesting now is when he's going after Gabe. To how many?

I think probably three to 400 episodes since you've broken up. But when I saw that little comment somewhere of people that listen to the show. But it's totally consistent with how reality shows are done. It's like a new manifestation of reality show. It's very much that. It's an extension of what that originally was,

and that's what that show has become. But to me, I think it's almost sociological, not psychological. Yeah. You know, it's weird. But I mean, I guess the question is, my hope is that in this, that it would stop for you. Oh my god, of course.

That it would stop for you. That the content about you and your daughter, because what I also want to say is, when a couple gets divorced in this world of reality TV, for example, Tamara Burney on OC, when she divorced Simon, Simon said the minor kids can't be on TV. So they couldn't be on TV. Same with Brandi Glanville. But what's different about today where these podcasts become reality shows, you know, even if she isn't gonna be on TV, your daughter,

there is this like loophole of that you can talk about her and tell these stories. And to a child, when they're 35, they might not care, or even when they're 25, they might not care that you told an embarrassing story about the day they got their period. Okay? But to think that there's been conversations about what will that day be like when our child gets her period or when she wants to get plastic surgery,

and speculation and funny and laughing and talking about a child that's just walking around. And we don't know now if her friend's parents have heard this and maybe are like, I'd rather you not play with this child. Like we don't, you know what I mean? That can happen too. Some screwball young male is gonna play it back to her. Believe me, believe me.

And a 12 year old female, when they hit that age, they're gonna use it against her for something. That's just how that age works. That's how it is. And you know, this is, this is not good for kids. Yeah. And I just, I'm shocked that like the hardcore fans and stuff that are vocal in comments have never said, guys, I don't know that my eight year old would

like to be talked about weekly when they said something or if the, even at the show, even if the story is funny or exaggerated or made up or whatever. It's just that because I remember with my own kids I you know I said when I did my stand up I my first special which was over 10 years ago I was like you can't watch this till you're 16, you know? And now that they're older, I can talk about them on stage. They do think it's funny. They do look back at an old bit and think it's funny about the Hot Wheels car. But I remember somehow Brandon did see a little bit.

And I joked and I said, Drake is my least favorite. But it was a joke because I said he's so much like Peter. Now Brandon loved that joke. He loved that I said that. But then there was something else that I said and it made him mad. Of course. And I was like, I told you guys

can't watch this till you're 16. And I realized like, even though it's talking and stuff like that, and that's why I'm, you know, and I was always like, can I post this? Is it okay? Can you be part of this video or not? And now they are good. I heard about this with Bert Kreischer

when he first showed his daughter at one of his stand ups. And they were like, is this what you talk about? Do you talk about us like this? He's like, yeah, I'm making fun. He's like, they didn't know how to process it. They were overwhelmed. And I thought, yeah, that makes sense, right? That's the kids.

It's their whole world. But there's a weird delusion with reality stuff generally, which is people watching delude themselves into thinking they're in the room. Right. They don't, they're a fly on the wall. Not that there are a cameraman, a cable guy, a sound guy on one side, are a cameraman, a cable guy, a sound guy on one side, a sound

man, a cable guy, a director with a video village and 12 people in it outside over here. That's how reality is done. It's very manufactured and you were not in the room and you don't know these people and what you say can hurt. It's like a weird, it's like they treat the reality, everybody on TV like they're comic book characters. Like they don't really exist. As in the audience.

The audience believes they're in the room and that the actual people are just sort of cartoon characters. Well, and I feel like that's a weird thing, right? The fans that had watched this show for, I mean, I think I was on for 70 episodes of TV, talked about for hundreds of whatever the number is. And these people, when they say these things,

I'm like, you do all realize that the root of this, the whole, it's not, we don't have a conversation outside of co-parenting. It is all about co-parenting, and that's what's then shared. At the root is a girl who's innocent in all of this. And everyone's commenting, saying this stuff. Whatever the personality types are on either side,

it's been shocking and eye-opening to me. I don't need you to be my fan, but to your exact point, the audience thinks they know everyone in this mix. And they don't. And the way they're treating, it's really hard for me to stand by because it's like, you're all in a way mistreating my daughter by what you're doing, what you're saying.

And that's, it's exactly your point. The audience thinks they really know and they know all the players and all the- And they're entitled to their- And they're entitled. That's why they're like, we want to hear this, and Gage is ruining it for us. Gage is trying- And Gage is this, and Gage is that. And why are you trying to shut it down? And what all of this stuff, because that makes the show so interesting. It's like, but I am just, it's like you said.

It's so funny. Would you come back to this relationship? No, not at all, because I couldn't be who I am as a dad. And then when you look at that, it's like, don't shut down the radio show from being able to talk about her and to talk about him. And that's what also, this is what makes the money, is me talking about my personal life, which involves you, my ex, and my kid.

And the audience will say that too. Like, well, if Gage doesn't want them being talked about, then he just shouldn't get his child support. And it's like, you have all these other people on the show. You can talk about something other than your eight-year-old daughter and your ex, you know, child support. And it's like, you have all these other people on the show. You can talk about something other than your eight-year-old daughter and your ex, you know? And you can talk about your feelings, but talk about in explicit ways the other people

that sort of, it's rough. But it's true, it's like people, the entitlement of like, well, don't ruin our fund, you know? Like, why are you such a bus kill gate? Yeah, exactly. It's not a- Care protected age, you know?

Yeah, I'm sorry you're trying to protect your daughter and you couldn't work a normal job if you wanted to because we bashed the shit out of you every day. And they're also very mad that he did, you know, doesn't want photos of her on Instagram or whatever because people, she's beautiful and she would be very recognizable. Just like you'd see a Disney kid walking around the Grove,

you might recognize your favorite character on an ABC sitcom, which is a scripted show, which they're getting paid and protected. So you had some stories where, you know, women or whoever fans will come up to her and she doesn't know who they are and it's freaky. She got really freaked out at the Grove one time a few years ago. And I pulled everything off.

Well, I brought up the Grove because the Grove is a story, but still. But we were shopping at some store that she normally, we would always go to and get dresses for her. And this woman came up and just started like, like a grandma type of figure and just intense. Oh my God, Monroe, Monroe. And she grabbed a hold of my neck, she was probably four,

squeezed it in my ear, she's like, Daddy, how does she know my name? And I was like, oh my God. And I immediately, because everyone's like, you deleted your Instagram, because that was a baby. And as soon as she communicated her discomfort, I freaked out, I was like, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, you have no idea what's coming.

Because you were born, she thinks she was born on TV. Like is someone gonna come? I told her that, I told her that was the end cap of documenting how you were born. You know that Aunt Alexandra grew you in her belly. You knew that your two dads came together and made you a doctor and with science. And we showed that so it could help other people.

But that was the end cap of you, you know, your experience. This wasn't a TV show about you. This is a Truman show. Yes, and it's like, so with the, that becomes a constant fight, like, because it's not fully documented that you can't post it. And it's, but it's just, she is beautiful and I don't need her to read 4,000 comments

about how beautiful she is. They're swelling up. Or the five that are like, you're not. The nasty ones, you need braces, you blah, blah, blah. Why would you exploit that to open that conversation for a kid that would then have to process that when we don't need to? If you want her to be in entertainment,

she wants to be an actress or she wants to, we know everybody in Hollywood to be able to make that happen when she needs, she is not a kid in Kansas that's trying to get her break, why do we need to exploit her? You don't have to do it now. She also can, she can be in the theater department, in college, she can do study film. And learn the art of it.

But it's like this kid right now, This kid right now wants to be an astronaut. She loves space. Everything about space, she's, let her be who she's gonna be. We don't need to label. And that's another struggle. Yeah, let her explore all that fun kids stuff.

But to your point, I feel like, yeah, that's one thing that is a struggle, is that the audience, it's just at the expense of whoever. Cause I don't really give a shit. I'm watching you as a character Gage who's not been on anything for seven years. It's a manifestation of the culture of narcissism. We all have these traits,

and so these fans have empathic failure, and they don't appreciate what they're doing to her. They can't, because they don't have the capacity. Empathic failure. Empathic failure, empathic attunement, the ability to appreciate the experiences of others emotionally, and certainly not appreciate their impact on others. I didn't expect to be so heartbroken by this conversation.

There's a lot of really sad things in this one. And I'm sorry. Thanks, I'm gonna go back to my life now. No, I don't mean right now, right now. You found kindness and intimacy and all these things that you found your way out, it's all great. But there's a lot of sadness for me in this hearing this story. Right now you found kindness and intimacy and all these things that you found your way out. It's all great, but it's all, it's there's a lot of sadness for me

in this hearing this story. Before we wrap up, for the people that are at home that are not with a famous narcissist, but might have a narcissist ex, or they see that their partner does have it or certain traits, but they're not ready to leave, is there anything that they could do or study or get to a place so that they could have pleasant days

and not the kind of anxiety that might come with being with a partner like this? Read about narcissism. I don't want people, again, don't, because there might be traits doesn't mean they're a bad person, doesn't mean their relationship can't survive. There's, I'm sure, tons of good things

about that person too, and try to focus on that, but I think the one thing, I mean, oftentimes this also carries other things, addictions and things with it. That stuff needs to be treated. If it's not treated, this will not work. You have to, you as the codependent, the person attracted to these kinds of people have to learn about boundaries and codependency.

It's good, I think it's still out and around a good book on narcissism called Why Is It Always About You? That's a good primer book on narcissism. learn about boundaries and codependency. I think it's still out and around. A good book on narcissism calls Why Is It Always About You? That's a good primer book on narcissism. And learn to set boundaries and ask for your needs to get met and ask for kindness. It's funny that the kindness is the word that came up for you.

That's often something people within, with narcissists aren't getting and don't know they need and don't know how to take it sometimes. But you should ask for that. And ask for them to practice paying attention to your needs. And it can work out. It doesn't have to be a disaster. This is from Caroline Strossen.

I don't know if she just came up with this or if she's a doctor, but this is a smear campaign is what a narcissist does to damage your reputation and credibility because they perceive you as a threat or someone who rejected them. So that's what we've been talking about. Yeah. The other thing is, so the other thing is if you're with a real narcissist, I heard a psychoanalyst say this the other day and it was really great. He just goes, if that narcissist says to you, says you are what you should hear is I am. It's a projection.

They do a lot of projecting a lot of, and that's what I've had to help a few friends recently that are in breakups or should be in a breakup that they're like, but they said this and they said that. And the one thing that I've taken away is you cannot change their story. Their story will morph into whatever their story needs to be. So they sleep at night as yours. Probably you have your story. Stop trying to control that because you will not be able to control their narrative.

But I feel like this type of thing is basically my last five years of it's just like, what I don't understand is what is the intent of the, I've always thought why would you come for me personally, as I'm a horrible dad, I'm a this, I'm that, and this like wraps it up. I think it's more the abandonment than even the threat.

But there's no overcoming that for a person like that that has those issues of abandonment. Yes, they can get treatment. The problem is that if you- They don't see it. Right, if you really have a disorder, if you really have a narcissistic personality disorder, why would I get treatment? You're the problem.

The problem's out there. Here, the locus of control is out there. But that's not a good way to go through life. You wanna take, be accountable for everything that's going on inside you. That's important. Well, I mean, this has been really, really helpful, and I'm really glad we got to have this conversation.

And Dr. Drew, tell everybody where they, if they are not aware, where they can listen more to you or follow you in your book. Drdrew.com, drdrew.tv, you can see our streaming show, Ask Dr. Drew, it's Tuesday and Wednesday, Thursday at three o'clock, typically. Rumble's a great place to subscribe, we have Rumble channel there, check it out.

Gage. I'm just me, going back to my sad life. No, you're not a sad life. Going back to your love, he knows it's. Gage. I'm just me. Just going back to my sad life. He knows it's a lovely life. I'm going back to the story is sad where you are. I hope that this brings some clarity, not more trauma. I don't know what it'll bring. I'm praying that maybe a few months from now, maybe even after this airs, there will be a shift and this won't continue for the next five years. That's what I'm really hoping. My hope is that I agree with you,

there's nothing wrong, like it's everybody else's issue. I just think that people should, in the world today, look at a little bit more kindness and a little bit more empathy. He brought that up, I think that's the word. Empathy is my word, kindness. Just realize maybe another perspective, the same as with a personality like this, if you're in it,

look at it, there is maybe a deeper problem you have nothing to do with. And the lashing out on you is nothing to do with you. They're actually in pain, so feel for that. In this circumstance, in this situation, because it keeps becoming so public every day, maybe a listener of that should be a little bit more empathetic of at the core, you can hate me.

I don't care if you hate me. That's fine. You're talking shit about the other parent of that girl who didn't sign up for any of this. So just, I feel that would be a great takeaway. If people are like, oh, you know what? Maybe we shouldn't say, gosh, your show's boring unless you talk shit about gays or the other.

Maybe that's a start. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. And there's a whole other topic we've not discussed. Another show would be a topic of shame. Shame operates in many levels in all these things. Maybe we've died sweet. You mean if the narcissist feels shame,

they react a certain way? They have shame at their core, yeah. Oh, interesting. And if you get near that, that's when you get the break. Maybe we need a follow-up. We can do a follow-up, yeah. So you just digest all of what we just dumped on you, process your sadness, and maybe you come back

and tell us the things that you need to share of what really is going on. Oh my gosh. Well, thank you so much you guys. Thank you. Thank you