Julian Dorey Podcast - 😱 #104 - Detective EXPOSES Satanic Cult Murders Coverup | Mike Codella

Episode Date: June 16, 2022

(***TIMESTAMPS in Description Below) ~ Mike Codella is a former NYPD / DEA / Secret Service Detective and Author. His career included stints as an undercover Narc, head of the Missing Person’s Squad, International Fraud Task Force Investigator, and more. Codella later published a book about his career called, “Alphaville.” After his retirement from active investigations, Mike opened the Renzo Gracie Brazilian Jiu Jitsu / MMA Academy in Staten Island. Check Out Mike’s New YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMFruWlhHWgJZ89TudoOnuw  Mike’s Book, “Alphaville”: https://www.amazon.com/Alphaville-Crime-Punishment-Battle-Citys/dp/1441787437  ***TIMESTAMPS*** 0:00 - Mike talks about growing up in Brooklyn and almost becoming a mobster 16:01 - New York City in the 1970s and 1980s; Mike talks about his work as a Narc in NYC; Environments shape the individual 39:21 - Mike’s work with the DEA; Lynne Stewart: Controversial Attorney / Peeling Left Guard; The Puerto Rican Takedown 53:32 - The Story of Mike & the School Boy Hitman; Building relationships with communities in detective work 1:16:42 - Mike’s work Undercover for the DEA; Mike’s move to Missing Persons 1:29:19 - The Etan Patz Cold Case and Mike’s WILD investigation in the 1990s that uncovered Satanic Rituals, Son of Sam Connections, and Covered Up Crimes 2:01:18 - The Andre Rand Case and how Mike finally took him down; Mike talks about the man they now alleged and convicted as Etan’s killer; What’s the deal with Satanic cults? 2:29:14 - Mike’s work on the International Fraud Unit with the Secret Service; Mike’s experience at the Twin Towers on 9,11 ~ YouTube EPISODES & CLIPS: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0A-v_DL-h76F75xik8h03Q ~ Get $150 Off The Eight Sleep Pod Pro Mattress / Mattress Cover (USING CODE: “TRENDIFIER”): https://eight-sleep.ioym.net/trendifier   PRIVADO VPN FOR $4.99/Month: https://privadovpn.com/trendifier/#a_aid=Julian Julian's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey ~ Beat provided by: https://freebeats.io Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You know, she was into it, the girl. And we laid her on one of those cement tables, you know, like the way they play checkers or chess on. Yeah. They lay her on the table, and they take this heavy sword, like from the Renaissance ages kind of looking sword, and when she thinks she's going to be blessed with it,

the president of the biker gang actually crashes it down on her chest. He says, if you could find that case what's cooking everybody i am joined in the bunker today by mr mike codella and if you heard that little intro snippet out front, yeah, this one got pretty fucking nutty. Mike spent over two decades in the NYPD where he served in all kinds of capacities, including working with the DEA a lot of good funny stories in there and then the second half is where it got fucking insane and that was mostly involving his work as one of the lead detectives in the missing persons unit at the NYPD this dude uncovered some crazy shit on some cold cases that included satanic rituals stuff I've never heard of in my life that's absolutely insane some of it obviously wildly scary and look it was my

first time hearing any of the things that he was presenting here so it's going to be probably your first time hearing it too these are things that as you'll find out some of it ended up getting shut down internally investigations so we'll never know the truth publicly but judge for yourselves i my head's still spinning i don't know what to believe but I really really appreciate how Mike presented it because He just told you what he found and some wild shit like I said So if you are not already subscribed, please hit that subscribe button as always hit that thumb button right there that like we need that We love that if you're on your phone take your own thumb hit the thumb if you're on the computer take the mouse hit the Thumb you know the drill everybody down in the comment section let's get the party rolling and to everyone who's been

sharing these episodes with friends and on social media thank you so much that's the number one thing we can get let's get that train rolling even more you guys are the people who drive this show couldn't do it without you so let's let's pump it into overdrive shall we anyway that said you know what it is. I'm Julian Dory, and this is Treadfire. Let's go. This is one of the great questions in our culture. Where is the nuance? You're giving opinions and calling them facts.

You feel me? Everyone understands this, but few seem to do it. If you don't like the status quo, start asking questions. Mike Codella, thanks for coming down here, man. Thanks for having me. And thanks for doing it on short notice too. I know this was like a quick turnaround, but your background was pretty wild. And I was like, we got to get this guy in.

I know you're going out of town, so I'm glad we got to do it. But I actually had not had a chance to read through your book yet which usually when someone comes in here I've read the book first so I'm flying blind today okay but I did get the cliff notes when you and I talked about some of the things you've done so I think your career you know obviously you were a cop in the NYPD and everything, but you did like a million things. I did a few things. So when you grew up, like, did you always want to be a cop or did it just kind of turn out that way? No, I didn't always want to be a cop, to be honest. For a long time, I just hung out with the wrong crew and saw what that looked like and just lucky to take the test and get called and then i once i got called i decided i really wanted to you know be a cop what where'd you grow up brooklyn kenosha

brooklyn oh kenosha kid yeah yeah so a few of your buddies went the five family route yes that's that's what i hear from it's like people that grew up there you know maybe like pre-1990 or something like that it was like everyone became1990 or something like that, it was like everyone became a cop or in the mob. Yeah. No middle ground. Well, some of my friend's fathers were pretty big heavyweights. Anyone in particular you're allowed to talk about?

Well, Vick Amuso, the head of the Lucchese family. Yeah, I know that one. My friends, he was my friend's godfather. Wow. And their father actually owned the bar that Vic would hang out in, so to speak. But it was Vic's bar, but under my friend's father's name on Flatlands Avenue. And just a bunch of guys, you know, whose fathers were connected and, you know, all that kind of stuff. Did you, like like was there a moment when you were a kid where you kind of maybe not a kid but like when you were a teenager or something

before becoming a cop where you were like oh this isn't good i don't want to do this yeah there was two actually two uh two two kind of heavy incidents so the one, I think this one happened first. I was about 17, and two of my friends, not my close friends, not guys I hung out with every day, but guys I grew up with, and that's the occasion. They wanted to, for a guy named Eddie Lino. I don't know if you're familiar with Eddie Lino. He was a Gotti. I don't think so, no.

He was one of Gotti's top guys. And the mafia cops actually killed him on the Bell Parkway eventually. This guy, Eddie Lino. What was that guy's name? Eppolito? Eppolito and Caracapa. So they kill him. They kill Eddie Lino eventually.

But obviously prior to that, these two friends of mine, who again, I just would knock around once in a blue moon. They said they were going to do... Now, Eddie Lino supplied a lot of Canarsie guys with cocaine he was he was a big deal for for God these guys and and Canarsie guys none of my friends dealt dealt drugs uh but in any event Eddie Lino one of these guys knew Eddie Lino somehow and there was a bar in Brooklyn in Red Hook Brooklyn and there were joker poker machines in there and cigarette machines in there what do there were joker poker machines in there and cigarette machines in there what do you mean joker poker machines uh joker poker are like these illegal machines

and they're in bars and restaurants especially years ago and you put money in and you you pull the the lever and you could win money so it's kind of like a slot machine it's like kind of like a slot machine yeah right but it's a poker game but yeah it's a slot machine and that was illegal they're illegal and they were run by mob guys so there was a uh a closed down uh bar in redhawk that had a bunch of joker poker and all the stuff in other machines and he asked my friend to go to go and even basically heist these machines on his behalf on eddie's behalf, Eddie Lino's behalf. So it was two of my friends, and they asked me if I would help them out. And there was some money to be made.

To be honest, I didn't need the money that badly. I had a job. I always worked. How old are you? I'm 16, 17. And this is like late 70s, early 80s? When does fast grocery delivery through Instacart matter most? When your famous grainy mustard potato salad isn't so famous without the grainy mustard. When the barbecue's lit, but there's nothing to grill. When the in-laws decide that, actually, they will stay for dinner.

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Right. So, I knew it would be fun, for lack of a better term. It would be fun, something to do, you know. So my friends, they get a truck, a hot truck. You know know they steal it uh like a panel truck and we go to this place in red hook and i go out the back and i hop over a fence i get in and i open the front door for them and we take these joker poker machines and they're heavy and

um and we're in a stolen truck and it's this whole thing so we get the trucks i'm sorry we get the machines and as we're driving to meet eddie leno cops are behind us with the siren so i thought for sure we were pinched but it wasn't for us they just went by us but we get through that now we go meet eddie in this uh parking lot in brooklyn flapper shayv go meet Eddie in this parking lot in Brooklyn, Flapper Shave, the Marine Park parking lot on Avenue U, or off of Avenue U. And Eddie, he's there in this, you know, leaning on his Cadillac. We get out. My friend gets out because he knew him.

He says, I'll go talk to him. He tells him we got the machines. Eddie wants us to follow him now to a different location. And when my friend came back to tell me that I thought it was like a lot of you know a lot of bullshit basically I'm like I

you know this ain't the deal man we almost got pinched once this is it man I'm you know we were supposed to get paid when we got here and it's not happening and uh

Eddie Lino hears me argue with my friend basically so he calls me over. And as I walk over, he's obviously pissed off. And he asks me, what's the problem? But not in that terminology. And so I told him. I thought this was it.

I thought we were coming here, getting paid. And he asks me my name and where I'm from. And I tell him. And he's very condescending towards me obviously he's you know he's an adult i'm 16 17 you scared at this point i'm a little yeah at this point i'm a little afraid yeah and um i thought he was gonna just to be honest i thought he was gonna hit me just throw a smack at me or punch me uh he takes out a lot of money and he throws it like in my hand. And he says, all right, basically,

you could get out of here. And he gives me the money. And as I turn around, I still thought he was going to shoot me when I turn around. That's how pissed off he was. So that's how pissed off he seemed. So I walk back to my friends and I'm like,

obviously, he didn't shoot me. I go to my friends, I'm out of here. And they're, well, where's our money? I'm like, I don't give a fuck where your money is. I got my money. You guys made, you made the deal, you deal with them. And then they end up following him somewhere. I don't even know where.

I get, I call up, I get a ride home, which wasn't far from my house anyway. And that was the one incident that kind of make me, I said to myself, if I can't trust the guys I'm with, meaning him and down the road, these two guys, just to tell you, not that I'm sure you'd know, but the life that they eventually got caught up in. One guy gets his head decapitated. Oh, wow. It washes up in Plum Beach, Brooklyn, in Sheepshead Bay.

And the other guy gets a job, an armored truck, working for an armored truck company. And obviously he decided that wasn't good enough money. Yeah. Right? Suddenly the truck wasn't armored yes tries to take the truck him and some guys try to take the truck off he gets popped gets caught and he flips on everybody oh yeah it's usually how it goes

yeah and so that's just that was one incident sounds like you just were like you saw whatever the look in his eyes was i mean the fact that you turned around you're like oh fuck i think he's gonna shoot me that's got to be just whatever that thing on your shoulder is going all right this this ain't it you know exactly so that was one time but there there was another time after this there was another time after uh a guy named bruno faciola i don't know if you ever heard of him. He is... Carla from Mob Wives. I don't know if you're familiar with that show, Mob Wives. Anyway, he was her uncle.

Okay. Bruno Facciola was her uncle. He was an old-time wise guy from Canarsie that everybody knew. What family? Bruno Facciola was a Lucchese guy. But he had a brother that was a Gambino guy. In fact, he or his brother in the movie Goodfellas is portrayed as the guy

who takes Tommy DeSimone to his death. Oh, okay. Yeah. Right, because one guy was a Gambino, the other guy was a Lucchese, and they had a relationship.

And when they wanted Tommy killed, he killed the Gambino guy. And so the two brothers were called upon to do him in. Anyway. Got it. So now I'm with my close friends. And we're walking home one night. And we stopped by in front of Bruno's.

We didn't know it was his pizzeria. But everybody in Canarsie knew Bruno by name. We just didn't know his face. And we stopped by in front was his pizzeria, but everybody in Canarsie knew Bruno by name. We just didn't know his face. And we stopped by in front of this pizzeria in Brooklyn, and we're just 17-year-old kids, 18, knocking around, and he comes out and he tells us to leave.

And, of course, we ignore him. Probably not the guy to ignore. Right. Okay. And he comes out again, and he tells us to leave again. And, of course, we told him, basically, go back inside and make your pizzas. Right? So, during this, I decided, we were all on a football team, high school team together, me and my friends. And I decided, me and one of the other guys decided to leave.

And we leave. After we left, Bruno comes out again with a baseball bat. And my friend's pretty tough kid, they take the bat from him and do a number on him with the bat. On Bruno? On Bruno. They took the bat from him? Yeah. Like I said, they didn't know who he was.

He was just to them a regular guy from a pizzeria. I guess they'll never know now. Looking for trouble. Well, let's just say he got revenge on everyone there and the consensus say it again but not you no i had left oh you were gone already me and one of the other guys left got it right um and the consensus was that one of these get one of my friends and we know, or we think we know who, ratted everybody out. Because he found out everybody who was there. And everybody got, he got retribution on everyone that was there. And they're still breathing?

Yeah, one had a plant in his head, one got shot up. The other guy took off for months. And the other guy just took a really, really bad beating. But one of the guys there was Vic Amuso's godson. Two of them, actually. And I think Vic was able to keep them from getting

killed, basically. Not keep them from getting hurt, but keep the 16, 17-year-old kids from getting killed. Wild how that goes. I mean, I was a moron when I was 16 or 17, but I do feel like that's probably not the guy I was taking the bat from. Well, to be honest, we didn't know.

Or they didn't know. But had I been there, it would have been just a bet for me. Now, that wasn't one of the pizzerias with the whole pizza connection thing, was it? No, but it's close. Right there. Right there. It's right there.

There's a whole other thing. But wow. i i guess you got out of high school and then how soon after did you become a cop uh i took the test probably when i was like 19 and i got called when i was 20 turning 21 i went on i became a cop so that's kind of like when that happens because again like a lot of people who grew up in the neighborhoods like that like that's a direction a lot of them went they went to become a cop if they didn't go the other way but like when that happens is there like a serious change like oh he's one of them now or like did you was just kind of like oh no this is just how it goes no when i became a cop, I lost a lot of my friends, like those guys. We just, you know, well, I went there one time shortly after I became a cop to the bar that was Vic's bar.

And one of my friends told me, oh, I'm glad you're here. We haven't seen you. It's been a long time. You got your gun on you? I'm well yeah yeah why maybe why well you know they were having trouble with some game these look easy guys more or less we're having trouble with these gambino guys down down the block i'm like what the fuck man that's my uh that's my welcome nice to see you my god so so that was obviously that was like a moment where you're like oh we're not going to use the badge for that yeah yeah interesting but like when when you went in was it did you start off as just like a regular beat cop

or where what did you get into right away yeah i came on a job i was a housing cop what does that mean well years ago there was three departments in new york city today i went to bed at about 7 30 a.m and that is because i had a great edit last night it was a great session ideas were flowing and when you're on a heater you can't stop it so i go to bed and i woke up at about 1 p.m so by my very bad math that's only about five and a half hours of sleep and yet yet i've already done about five more about five and a half hours of sleep. And yet, yet, I've already done about five more hours of editing today, two hours of a workout, I've had a meal, and I'm talking to you, and I got a lot of energy right now. And you know why? Because I sleep on an

8sleep Pod Pro cover. The 8sleep Pod Pro cover comes in queen or king sizes. It goes right on top of your current mattress. So if you already have a mattress you like, you stick this right on top, and it's wired directly into 8sleep's proprietary app that measures your sleep stages and all kinds of sleep science and shit throughout the night to make sure that you get the best sleep possible and you can wake up having all this energy like me so if you use that link in my description along with the code trendifier check out that's t-r-e-n-d-i-f-i-e-r you will get 150 off your own eight sleep pod pro cover today you should do it because it's going to change your life and it supports the show so check it out the housing police which basically covering all new york city projects the transit cops which did the subways and the regular nypd guys that did the streets so to

speak right and i was a housing cop and i was assigned to when i first came out i worked in coney allen uh projects which like i always say for people that don't know what coney allen is it's not all ferris wheels and you know nathan's hot dogs it's gritty it's ghetto and it's tough uh and the projects are low income and you know those are the guys that are committing the crimes and the drugs that's that's how it goes and you know when people are born into really tough environments like it's like you become the cop or the criminal it's it's it's like you got the two choices with it but i mean when when you were doing that was that i'm trying to think that's like the early 80s so that was 83 that

was like after the frank lucas days, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, I mean, did you see any shit there that then pressed you on to say like, oh, I want to get into working NARC or stuff like that? Well, when I was in the police academy, a good friend of mine's father, every once in a while would drive us because he worked in emergency service which was actually right behind the police academy right he was like a SWAT basically emergency services NYPD SWAT team okay and every once in a while he'd take a shortcut to the police academy and he'd get off on east housing street exit and take the streets to 20th street that's where the academy was as opposed to taking the FDR drive all the way to 23rd Street. When we got off on Houston Street, I'll never forget, there were lines of people waiting to cop heroin. Lines like... On Houston?

On Houston, on the Avenue. Down Avenue D, down C, down to 14th Street. And you'd see lines. And I was a pretty street, smart kid, at least I assumed, I thought I was, and I asked my friend's father, what are these lines? What's going on here? It was almost like they were on a cheese line, or a bread line, or waiting for food or something.

He said, I'm waiting to cop dope. I'm like, 25 people waiting to cop dope? Just right in public in public in an orderly fashion had their money in their hands were ridiculous like for people who aren't familiar with new york i mean i'm i'm thinking about houston street that's like one of the most wide open streets on the entire island of manhattan right like that just that idea obviously we know that these deals happen on streets and stuff, but they happen on corners. They happen on back streets.

They happen on side streets, stuff like that. They don't happen like the way we think about it. They don't happen on like a literal main strip of Manhattan like that. That's nuts. It's nuts, really. And the truth is NYPD, not the housing cops, but NYPD weren't allowed to make drug calls, street drug calls since the Knapp Commission. What is it? Wait, explain that.

What does that mean? The Knapp Commission was the corruption case of New York City cops back in the mid-70s. Early 70s, mid-70s. And they found that where there were drugs, there's money, of course. And that leads to corruption for uniformed cops so NYPD basically said uniformed cops stay away from street drug arrests so they just kind of completely avoid it yeah so avoid it so if they're dealing drugs here let's say fogging me say just walk away walk across the street and and when and like

I said when I drove we drove by like, what kind of bullshit is this? And my friend's father, he had told me that. And he also said that the city doesn't matter. It's not the worst thing in the world for the heroin to be contained in one area, meaning Alphabet City, which is Avenue D. And it's been like that for years prior. He said, oh, keep going on like that. Well, that stuck in my head. And after a couple months in Coney Island,

I put in for a transfer to go to Alphabet City because housing cops could make arrests. We didn't have that limitation of not locking up uniform, locking up street drugs. Why are you allowed to do that but the nypd street isn't it was makes no sense it made no sense but nypd was more afraid of corruption and the guys in the cops in the projects our supervisors chiefs and right up and down the line weren't afraid of corruption so cops uniformed housing cops could make drug arrest that's wild

i mean obviously like every time you hear one of these things like where there was a major thing obviously you think like mike dowd and stuff like that like seven five where it's like a full district and there's all kinds of corruption where guys are making money they can make it wherever they want where there's crime they have leverage it's not just drugs like if they catch someone doing something else like oh well you want to pay me off or you want to go to jail right but but where you grab a guy who's dealing drugs you know he's gonna have he's gonna have a pocket full of money on him true and that's the point that's what they didn't want they didn't want a uniform guy grabbing a guy and coming up with three thousand dollars worth of 20 twenties so they did away with it but again we weren't we

didn't do it my job didn't do away with that they encouraged it was there any point like i'm trying to think about where we were i feel like i probably know the answer to this question but i still gotta ask like was there any thought from people across the nypd that oh, this is also a public health crisis that we should figure out working with different commissions to get people help if there's so many people doing heroin? Or was it still like at that point, okay, people are doing heroin bad, arrest them, lock them up? There was no help. No, there was no, you got to remember, and not so much 83, but later, a few years down the road, AIDS came along. People, you remember, people dying, you know, Alphabet City were dying, left their, people. The thing about heroin on Avenue D, are you familiar with Avenue D at all?

Houston Street and Avenue D? I'm very familiar with Houston. I'm familiar with C. I haven't spent a ton of time on D. Well, D is all the projects, basically. And they run from 14th Street all the way to Delancey Street, really. Yeah.

Walled houses, Reese houses, Baruch houses. The AIDS, so many people from the Avenue died. And what people don't understand is heroin in Alphabet City was like a way of life. And everybody made money from it. Unless you were totally legitimate,

you didn't make money from it. But if you weren't, kids made money being steerers or lookouts. The dealers, the small-time dealers made money dealing. Grandparents held it in their apartment for the dealer. So it was like the money just funneled throughout families and the whole buildings were involved it's a way of life it was a way of life so if you were looking to call a guy or a dealer somebody out upstairs on the third floor may whistle so this guy knows that this cop's coming because they know

they're going to get hurt off for a 5050 bill for saving this guy from getting caught. Right. You know, it was ridiculous. But as far as the aides go, so many people, like, it wasn't looked down upon to be a user, really. I locked up so many people that I was shocked were users maybe not necessarily injecting but everybody used dope just snorted it was like no big deal the way it's wild because it's heroin you can't i'll tell you a story that i sometimes i shake my head i can't believe it so when i went down to avenue d when i worked down down there i hooked up with a guy that actually grew up in Brooklyn with me, near me. Grew up in Flatlands area.

A year older than me, and we became really good friends. His name was Jeff Sear. We were partners. And we thought alike, and we did stuff alike. And we did a lot of stuff off the, not according to police procedure. We did... What do you mean by that? So like, well, first we were in uniform

and we made a million collars, drug collars. Then we got into a unit called Operation 8. And Operation 8 was a federally funded unit that the government paid for our overtime, gave us a vehicle. We had radios from Operation 8 eight it was a federally funded unit and the eight stands for the eight worst projects in alphabet city and that's what they wanted us to focus on so that was like i said walthouse reach houses baruch houses gompers and a couple

other projects when you say federally funded unit does that mean that there were national politicians who who were crafting legislation that allowed this to happen? Or was it specifically like a department, like Department of Homeland Security or something like that says, oh, we got a problem in New York. Like, okay, let's enable the NYPD. Well, they didn't enable the NYPD. They enabled the housing cops. The money was specifically for the housing cops to pay x amount of cops so it was initially was four cops and one sergeant and the money came from the federal government to try to basically

stop the crime in the projects you know crime in the projects aside from the drugs was always a disaster guns and robberies and you name it was always a horror it's just like the war on drugs time like 85 yeah something like that yeah yeah yeah makes sense yeah um oh so you asked me what we did that was non-procedural yeah so in uniform i would say most of the time we did things i guess by the book while we were in uniform on patrol because you didn't have the opportunity or the leniency to go and change things. But when we got in plainclothes, we realized that to get these guys, the drug dealers, you have to do things, you have to work with the community.

And when I say the community, I don't mean the good community. Right. Everyone's in on it right so you have to work with the bad guys because if you're going to catch a criminal you got to deal with the criminals so we would either pay the money to tell us who's working out of our own pocket or out of your own pocket yeah yeah well you can't use enough see people don't realize you can't use an informant if If you're going to use an informant, you have to register them. Meaning you have to fingerprint them.

You have to take their picture. Their paperwork has to go through the police department. They can't be on parole. They can't be on probation. Really? That's the whole Avenue D. I never heard that before. Yeah.

That's like way too many dogs and wizards. Imagine if the CIA had to do that. Well, they already probably do know everything, but still. Yeah, and I'm sure they have things where they're supposed to do, but they just overlook it. And that's what we did. So we didn't do anything. First of all, nobody wants to get fingerprinted.

And nobody wants anything on paper with their name on it. No. Because if anybody finds out, they're dead. Yeah. So we would pay them out they're dead yeah so we would pay them out of our pocket or we'd pay them what somebody else's door we'd grab a guy who's dirty and we'd hit off the guy that told us this guy was dirty on the qt obviously you know or we'd leave a couple of bags under the radiator in the building so and tell him where it is and he'd go

get it were you ever tempted i mean because you know you're making limited money as a cop were you tempted to to take money for yourself because there's all kinds of money floating around as you said all kinds of money you know what i worked me and my partner worked in this specific area for a long time and we used to see the same bad guys all the time and we we both had the same feeling that once you um lower yourself their respect for you was gone and it would have been true so we were really and they knew we were on top you know we were unapproachable as far as taking money or you know how they how you think they knew that you don't think that there was're like, oh, one day they might give in?

Because a lot of guys did. Yeah, no, they might have thought that. But if they did ask us, we'd let them understand in a not-so-nice way that we ain't taking your money. That we want you, we don't want your money. And they wouldn't ask us again. Wow. Yeah, when I had Luis in was uh he may come up later when we start talking about some of this stuff but he was he was an original cocaine cowboy down

in miami and he was actually through his family his father was connected and so he was the guy who brought the cubans to the italians in new york with all that stuff and he he talked to me both on camera and off camera about the whole cop angle because like today he has a lot of friends who are police he always has but he's like some of them were friends because i paid him and he's like the moment they take a cent right they're done they're done they're done he's like i will do whatever i want from that point forward because they're now dirty. And even if it's not much, they know it. They're compromised. Yeah.

Yeah, they're screwed. You're screwed once you take a dime. And we never did. Sometimes a dealer would tell them. When I went into the DEA and we were working a wiretop, I was actually in Brazil at the time. And one of the guys stepped off and wanted to deal his money. And he got on the phone, and he said that I took his $3,000. It wasn't a lot of money, but he said that I took his $3,000, but I was in Brazil.

He stepped off? What do you mean, stepped off? Like, in other words, he was supposed to go out there and make a deal, and he said that I took his money. Oh, the dealer blamed you yes the dealer blamed me for the that he had no that he did the deal

excuse me and he couldn't get the money to the big guy because I Mike Cadillo took his money but I was in Brazil so which it saved me

you know which I was in good shape yeah you had a good alibi yeah holy shit yeah so you know they did you know they do lie and they did work you know, which I was in good shape. Yeah, you had a good alibi. Yeah. Holy shit. Yeah, so, you know, they did, you know, they do lie,

and they did work, you know, they do work around. But for the most part, they knew we were, you know, couldn't be bought. Now, how long were you doing this as a housing cop in Alphabet City? So I went down there in, like, 85, and we stayed there. Then we hooked up with DEA, so like seven, eight, nine years. Wow. And again, a lot of that is in plain clothes when you're doing this.

Yeah, and we weren't undercover. We were in plain clothes. We were like an anti-crime team. So they knew who you were. They knew who we were. My partner and I had more informants that you wouldn't believe it. We'd tell somebody we'll meet them on the roof. Like if somebody wanted to talk to us, we'd tell them we'll meet them.

484 East Houston Street is the first building on Houston Street when you get off the FDR Drive. And we used to like that building. So we said, we'll meet you up at 484. We'd have one guy come up. We'd talk to him. He'd go out one door. And literally another informant would come up and come up another door. It was like the departed.

They're all going up to the roof. It was ridiculous. Man, I'm telling you. Everybody's ratting on everybody because they all want to ingratiate themselves with us. But if you're... That's the thing, though. It's a big community. Yeah.

But it's a small area. So if you're a plainclothes cop you're not hiding you're not undercover that's a long time eight or nine years ago i watch people grow i've seen kids grow up and uh like how do you last like eventually people are going to be like oh no that guy knows everyone i can't talk bro i used to know the name of a deal would put a dope brand out you know they stamped their brand yeah there's blue magic yes all that stuff right right this guy put out a dope name presidential you know these names all stick in my head of 30 40 years later he put out a dope name this guy's name was savage the black the the perp the bad guy he put out a dope called presidential it wasn't even out on the street 20 minutes

somebody told us savage got a new brand of dope we We saw Savage. I said, hey, Mr. President. He says, I don't know. I just put that. Yeah, crazy, crazy. Wow. Because that's got to be like a huge social experiment too for you because you're like, you know, you develop relationships with people, most of whom are totally compromised.

But, you know, a lot of them i assume stay in for a long time so it's like you ever seen the wire no oh my god you haven't seen i know that's like actually embarrassing you have to see that i have a hard time watching so many shows to be honest it's but i know it's really good that but you live that like you i always tell people it's it's a show but it's a documentary there's actors it's a script right but it's like whoa is it real and guys who more importantly guys who were in the life talk about all the time like police who worked undercover or worked as plain clothes policemen they're like this is literally what it is right and like you see that and there's

characters like i remember the guy bubbles who was in there who was you know he was he was a heroin addict but he was friends with the cops for a long time and they put up with you know the fact that he was this homeless heroin addict right because he was useful in getting information and they actually like some of them legitimately were friends with him it was like this weird like psychologically for someone like me that never did that it's such a weird thing to think about because this isn't like five minutes you know you're in these people's lives as you said to watch their kids grow up literally you know and and play with some of these kids were cute little kids and i would throw the ball around with them football and then as they grow up one kid in particularly he got so um brought into that drug dealing life. And he eventually got killed when he was young.

He was only 19 and they killed him. But he was such a nice kid to us. And, you know, happy to see us and all that stuff. And little by little, you could see he just like didn't even want to look at us. And we say, you know, what's up, man? You know, what's with the attitude? You know what, though? This is so interesting because I'm so obsessed with environments and what they do to people.

And, like, you know, people have to – you come to a point where your actions, you know, they're your actions. And that is what it is. But there is such thing as I'm sure you're well aware of people who are in a position where they're much more likely they have a much or they have a much lower chance of being in a position to choose a lot of good actions absolutely right i agree that's hard to like i can't imagine that i would not want to be a part of to see like someone like oh this is a cute kid and then it's not his fault he's born here no and it took me a long almost maybe it did take me a long time, but I changed a lot. You know, in the beginning, I only saw black and white.

Not as far as what I was doing legally and illegally with the deals, but I mean, as far as guy's a good guy, always a bad guy. But that's not true. Like you said, the environment, your friends, your friends your family you know some of these kids don't have a shot even if they want to be legitimate kids or have you know you hear stories of you know pro athletes or actors that made it out of you know they made it out they made a good life but for the most part it's really hard when your mother's a dope addict right of whether she's an out-and-out junkie or just a functioning dope addict either way either way you know and you see that shit in your house and your father's uh committing stick-ups and

or in jail or in jail i mean it's just like what one of my buddies is from one of the neighborhoods up there and there's he's told me a lot of stories to stick with me teaches me a lot but you know he made it out. And he's unbelievable. But there was a point where he got put on a track where he got to go to a high-ranking school in a neighborhood, meaning for the people who are very smart. And so obviously that's like a golden ticket. And his parents, who are are both amazing they're both around like great people they were like 100 like you got to do this and he tells a story he's like outside of some of the shit that would happen where we'd fight with people after school because

they'd stop us and be like oh you're the kids from that school he said there was one day when he got a little older where some of his friends who would never be involved in that stuff, they still fucked with him and were still good friends with him. But they'd be spending less time. And he got to this day, I don't know if he was like 13 or 14 or 15, strapped, working for the guy in the neighborhood as he was approaching him. And he looked at him and there was a moment where he was like, oh. And he literally grabbed my friend and said – walked him across the street and said, stay on this side. I got you. And then walked back and it was just – you know what I mean?

It was understood like this is how I got to go to put food on the table don't you dare come over here that's such a huge it's heavy to me yeah man that's a heavy thing yeah for you know misery loves company yeah not in that case apparently but wow he was lucky yeah you know yeah that's a human moment though you know what i mean absolutely and there's more people that would have rather been on the wrong side of the street with him than watch him do good right right and you know about that too from growing up yeah yeah with your friends as you pointed out at the beginning absolutely it's it's some sort of it's necessity and then it's also you know you see you look around who's got the nice car right who's got who's got the stack of cash who owns the pizzeria?

Right, and all the girls like the money. Nobody's going out with broke guys. Right. So yeah, it's tough. Yeah. So you were a bunch of years in there, but one of the things you and I were talking about before we got on camera that you mentioned quickly

was the whole DEA thing. Right. I've always been curious about this, because as you told me you didn't go into the DEA but you were as a part of the NYPD I guess narcotics division you were yeah you were assigned to work with them for a long time well what happened was um so me and my partner on the alphabet city for years and like you said we knew everybody which which we did we knew everyone um and we had done stuff with different agents in the new york office even one particular guy uh

an agent uh a shop agent he came to us on a couple of occasions with pictures and he said hey i'm looking for there was a kid hector he was looking for we did this, they actually did a warrant on his house, but they missed him in the projects. They did a warrant in the projects. How'd they miss him? He wasn't home. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, they missed him.

Have you ever, have you seen Hector? We're like, yeah, we'll see him once in a while. We're looking for him. Sure, we got him in no time. Another guy who was actually Hector's partner, that guy, Cesar, we got picked up Cesar. So this guy, the word got in the DEA office, if you need anybody in Alphabet City, you know, let...

So one of the groups up there, Group 34, did a case with some Puerto Ricans from Alphabet City and a Chinese dealer. And somewhere along the line, I think the U.S. Attorney refused to prosecute some of the Puerto Rican guys who were buying from the Chinese. But they were still criminals, obviously. They just, for whatever reason,

the U.S. Attorney didn't think it was enough. So they came, they heard of us through this other agent, and they came with a bunch of pictures, like 10, 15 pictures. They said, you know these guys? And we're like, yeah, that's Lucho, that's Tio. We named them all. We knew them all.

Yeah. What are they? I'm like, well, we don't see them here often, but we know who they are. They called up our chief. You know, obviously, they asked us first, and they said, can we borrow me and my partner? And we're going to work this case on the Lower East Side, in Alphabet City, and we'd like to use them. So what they did was they took us up.

They swore us in as a federal, it's like a federal marshal. Basically, you can carry a gun all over. You got federal powers, arrest powers, and they swore us in. And they had a civilian undercover who was working off a bid, working off, I think his brother had been arrested. So to work off his brother's bid, this civilian guy was going to do some undercover work for them. As an informant. As an informant.

Right, confidential informant. So they asked us, who should we send this guy to buy from that'll lead us to our guys? And that's what we did. We had him in an undercover truck van for a while. And then we found out what dope these guys were behind, basically. And we put him in there. And then he bought. And then he just bought his way up. And then we ended up going on a wiretop for quite a few months and we ended up taking down 40

uh alphabet city uh heroin dealers wow now were they these guys i'm trying to think like of the organizational chart here these guys weren't the guys who were at the top providing it but they were the guys who were like kind of managing on the ground then in this case yeah but we got to the top guys oh you did yeah like rico type stuff yeah yeah yeah wow yeah we did we we locked up 40 guys and uh it was a rico case yeah wow so with the wire taps like how long did this go on? Quite a few months. I think we were up on a wire, like, between four and six months. And separate wires, too, like different phone.

You know, if I call your phone and we talk dirty stuff, dirty business, then your phone could get a wire. Then we could put a wiretap on your phone. So how many phones did you wiretap by the end? I think we did, like, maybe, I want to say, like, five, maybe. Wow. Yeah. It's like the top guys. Several, like top guys several yeah yeah the top guys so all basically at the end of the day all the pertinent information at some point or another is coming through those yeah wow yeah and and uh we had them so good that

the number two guy was uh the top guy was a puerto rican guy who was kind of like soft-spoken and kind of, for lack of a better term, kind of a wimpy kind of looking guy. We thought for sure he was going to flip. For sure we thought he would flip. The top guy. The top guy. And the second guy under him was a street, tough, black kid that had done jail time. And we never figured him to flip. Well, he flipped, and the top guy didn't flip.

Once the number two guy flipped, everybody took a plea and copped out, and everybody just, we didn't even go, not even one trial on the whole case. Wow. And Lynn Stewart, I don't know if you're familiar with Lynn Stewart. Larry Davis, remember Larry? Larry David, Larry Davis remember Larry Larry David Larry Davis the guy that shot the cops in the Bronx shot like seven cops no no not what's what was the first name Lynn Stewart yeah Lynn Stewart she's a counselor uh protege oh is this the woman

that went to jail for representing the the uh the blind chic yeah yeah so did she represent them she represented yeah yeah she did she represented a lot of them yeah she hated i'll tell you this really funny story so she we used to lock up guys and they used to say her husband came from there from alphabet city i don't know how true that is they say he came from Gompers Project. I don't know if that's true. That was never confirmed, but a lot of guys used her as a lawyer. And so it made sense that maybe the husband did introduce her, but who

knows. But in any event, guys would tell us, you know, Lynn Stewart will get me out and, you know, all that shit. So we used to, and they would come back and say, man, Lynn Stewart, I hate you meeting me and my partner. She hates you. So we used to, and they would come back and say, man, Lynn Stewart, I hate you meeting me and my partner. She hates you.

So we would tell them all kinds of shit to tell Lynn Stewart. Tell her we think she's this, she's that. We really must have drove her insane. Tell her she was hot? Yeah. Everything but she's being hot. Yeah.

Well, we lock up these 40 guys, and they're all in, like, the bullpen of the federal court, like, all sitting in the bleachers. And she's representing a bunch of them. And this is now the first time we've ever seen it. Well, during the case, it might have been after the case, one of the guys who was cooperating gave us information on her, that she was holding guns for bad guys. And she actually rented a car that a homicide was using to one of the guys

and the u.s attorney said you know it's hard to lock up because of lawyer privilege yeah it's hard so they didn't go slippery slope yeah it's a real slippery slope and they didn't go after her but in any event um what did she side note though what did she do with the chic again she hid like a potential terrorist plot or something she was helping so they used to she was his lawyer and they brought in a um translator yeah and supposedly she was letting them talk, and I believe there was somebody, like the guards were there, or somebody was there that could interpret on the government's behalf. She was deflecting him so the two, the bad guy interpreter and this blind sheik could talk, and he was passing messages to this guy

to go out and give these messages to the terrorists wow and she got arrested and convicted yeah yeah because it was reasonable yeah to assume that she knew something was going on yeah she was dirty for sure yeah you know yeah that is not a job i would ever or could ever do be a defense attorney i i really couldn't like because two things when i was defending someone who was innocent i'd never sleep god for it if they got found guilty i'd never sleep and then also when i'm defending someone who's guilty i have a legal obligation to be objective and defend them they get off i mean okay if they like stole a piece of bread i don't really care but like you know if someone raped somebody or murdered

some like i don't know how you sleep at night with that it's tough i have a friend a guy who trains with me actually he's a lawyer and i ask him you know on a couple of occasions uh you know you know this guy he's guilty and he's like i know he's guilty i said well he said well i don't ask him he said I don't ask him what happened. I just try to get him off, get him the best deal I could get him. I'll tell him we shouldn't go to trial, you know, but I don't ask him exactly what happened because I don't really want to know. He's not going to tell me anyway.

He's not going to tell the lawyer the truth probably anyway. He's going to make up some bullshit. So he tells him, I don't even, I'll tell him this is the best way to get out of this. Take this plea or let's work this angle. He said, but, you know. It is so important, like when you look at how they crafted this with the Constitution to be able to give people rights in the face of a government being able to do whatever they want. I think it's critical and it's a very important thing we have.

It just takes, like in that example that's somebody who's talking about they on purposely compartmentalize some things and leave it out which hey i guess if that's how you got to deal with it who am i to tell you not to do that number one right but it also takes like a level of objectivity that if you are an emotionally wired person like me and i gotta assume there's a lot of lawyers who actually are emotionally wired i don't know how they get there to just be like this then this this then this this is the way the law says so this is how we execute it but that's you know when i talk to friends who go to law school they're just like that's what they beat

into you they beat into you stop thinking about feelings on this stuff think about the application of what the words on this page say according to the law right and so maybe there is like not maybe i guess there has to be something that in those three four years that you're in law school your brain just flips a switch and suddenly it's like this is what it is right but then you're in the situation then you're in it yeah and he gets a lot of cases appointed to him from the state so you know he says i do what i do you know i do what i have to do to them i'll for them you know and i'll tell them you can't win this case like he had one recently he was telling me he knew the guy they had him cold

i don't remember the specifics of the case but they had the guy cold the police that you know uh and he wanted to fight the case the guy was like no i'm fighting it i don't care because he couldn't he had done a lot of time and he didn't couldn't cop the plea wasn't that great and he was like i don't care i'm just taking and of course the guy told him i and he and of course the guy lost you know he got slammed also heavy to deal with it's like i think about these lawyers who are who are standing in court when someone's like, you've been sentenced to life in prison. They're like putting their arm on them, and then they get taken away, and the lawyer goes out and like buys Dunkin' Donuts.

I'm like, fuck, man. Holy shit. It's funny. It's heavy as hell, man. Yeah. It's something. But I cut you off where where were we with you were talking about the dea case with the 40 puerto ricans and lynn stewart oh so lynn

stewart has the guys up in uh you know she's got a bunch of these guys she's representing so at some point she has to get up and approach the judge and um me and my partner are sitting at the the prosecution's table the u.s attorney's table just kind of like in chairs, swivel chairs. Now, she knows of us. I don't know if she's ever seen us, but she knows of us. She knows who we are. So when she's finished with the judges,

instead of just walking to her defense, the defense table, she like goes out of her way to walk towards us and she nudges my partner and he spins around. She hit him such a shot, he like spun around. spun around she's a fucking peeling guard but it was kind of it's kind of nice to know that you know we really

must screw her day up you know yeah that's that's something like how do these people like the ben brafman's of the world and stuff like how do they end up where they just they're everywhere like she had the blind sheik. She had all these people in Alphabet City, apparently. There were other kids. Larry David, I'm telling you, she had some bad people, man. What was the Larry Davis thing again? He, the cops, he was a drug dealer and they went up to execute a warrant, an arrest warrant,

and he went out in a blaze of glory shooting at them and he shot like seven or eight of them and he got away and he was on the land for quite some time and they finally catch him and then I think

he got off on that case he was arrested on a separate homicide but on that case the Bronx jury actually he beat that case and

counselors were saying that the cops were dirty and they were trying to execute him because he had information on dirty cops and they actually beat the she and counselor actually beat he won the case but he was inside uh that was probably like 88 yeah see this was also like i i don't know i was i wasn't born so i don't know this new york but the new york you're talking about like from speaking i you haven't really brought it up today yet,

but speaking to other people who were there and stuff, like, the 1970s and 1980s in New York were fucking wild. I mean, I guess, like, that line you talked about on Houston Street, that seems like right up what it was. But people were saying, they're like, dude, you could be at Times Square and you're getting robbed by some pros in broad daylight. That's crazy to think about now. Times Square was nuts. Crazy. And that's all because of that nap commission or whatever? Well, the drugs were.

You know, the drugs got, you know, cops couldn't do anything for the drugs. But in general, 42nd Street, 8th Avenue, that was a porn capital of the world and every other thing that was going on there what do you think of like a little sidebar on this but what do you think of the whole conversation with policing today because and that's a really broad way of putting it but you know it seems like the people who talk about it are either team a or team b like everything else it's either like all about it or like fuck all of them defund them and everything i look at it and even though i don't like a lot of things i've seen i'm like whenever you do like defunding or like getting rid of

it's never good because then people have free reign to do whatever the fuck they want and you don't have any of the good cops out there anymore, right? But then on the other end, I'm also like, well, how do we incentivize this more so that the people who want to do the job, guys like you who come on and like get the job done and are like, okay, well, here's what we do. Here's the bad people. Here's the good people. Let's head down. This is what we're doing. We're not taking money for ourselves things like that how do we get it so that you put people like that in a position where they're a making enough money doing the job you know to support a family and things like that and not looking around everyone else making money and

b get them the proper training because like you're you're a jujitsu master right like you're you're legit you know there's a lot of guys there's a lot of cops no disrespect like I'm spinning them around real fast just I only box I don't do any of the fucking on the floor shit right right like that that shouldn't be the case right um so I don't what exactly is the question you're asking me wait as far as like the state that was a lot there sorry as far as like the the state of people debating police these days like as someone who's now been out of the force for a while but who was in it for a long time like how would you what what things would you want to fix right now and how would you go

about doing it and also what do you think people are claiming that's like totally unreasonable um so i think juliani Giuliani had the answer. Jack Maple, who was a deputy police commissioner, and Bill Bratton. And their answer was the broken, they call it something like the broken windows theory or way of policing. And that was, you can't let people commit graffiti. You can't let people jump the turnstile. Because those are the same guys that are robbing people. Those are the same guys that are doing stick-ups, burglaries, dealing dope, using dope.

Everything's got to be, whatever the violation is, they got to be accountable for it. So if a guy jumps the turnstile, grab him. You're either going to summon him. If you don't want to get summoned, then you lock him up. If he gives you a problem, lock him up. Do a warrant check on him. See if he's got a warrant. Right up the line. Whatever, panhandling. No panhandling. If he does, give him a summons. If he's got no ID, if he's homeless, arrest him. And that takes the crime down Giuliani proved it I mean the numbers from a couple of thousand homicides a

year to virtually let half of half of the numbers Giuliani took out at the homicide level that's true I don't have them in front of me but as far as like taking it down it's absolutely true and that's the most serious like taking somebody's life if we can have less of that, that's great. I think the argument with some of that, though, is like we create these perpetual systems. So you put yourself in a position where you're going into bad environments to be incentivized to look for the small things like that. And you grab a 15-year-old kid for jumping a turnstile and you give him a record. And now his criminal career begins. To be honest, a 15-year-old kid would only get

a juvenile delinquent nonsense that gets expunged when he's 17 or 18 years old probably. So if you're an adult and you jump a turnstile, you should get arrested or at least a summons.

I mean, if the prices are too high to take for an individual to take the subway, then they have to do something with that. But you can't let people commit crimes. I mean, that's the way I look at it. That's the bottom line. You can't justify writing on a wall because you're poor or because you're angry or spray painting a statue or whatever.

It's a violation or it's a crime. They have to answer for it. And those are the same guys that are doing all the crimes. You're not going to get a kid or guy or panhandling who's not going to pick your pocket if you're not looking. It's the same guy. And those are the people that are going to pick your pocket if you're not looking. It's the same guy. And those are the people that are going, the less crime you take off the street, the less, well, listen, when me and my partner were working in plainclothes,

there was a guy, I've talked about this not too long ago, he was a known, for lack of a better term, he was a known assassin for drug deals all over the city. They would pay this kid, I mean, and he used to look like a little schoolboy. That's the name I gave him in my book, but that's not his real nickname. But he looked like a schoolboy. He had little glasses on. He was small framed. He used to carry a little knapsack, like a little school bag. And he looked like a schoolboy. And he'd walk up to people and kill them, big-time drug dealers.

And he was known throughout the city. Detectives from other boroughs and other parts of Manhattan would ask me and my partner about him. You know, we hear that he did this, you know, he did that. And I'm like, we know. We hear from the people in the avenue what he's about. He would never carry a gun when we were working. We must have grabbed him 50 times and tossed him. Never had a gun.

Somebody tells us he don't carry a gun because he knows you guys are working from either a day tour, meaning 8 in the morning to 4 in the afternoon, or 4 in the afternoon to midnight is when we worked. Unless we had an arrest, but then we'd be in court. We wouldn't be on the streets running around. We'd be in court. So everybody said, he don't carry a gun when you guys are around. He knows you guys are going to grab him. One night, my partner and I are working, and we see a wanted guy for a homicide this guy had been wanted for years i mean my partner always looked for him not actively looked but we'd say you know

that looks like so-and-so and we're going and it wasn't him so he was always on our head because we we didn't like this guy anyway one night we're walking and we see him we grab him the homicide perp bring him to the homicide perp. Bring him to the detectives. It's about 11 at night, 1130. They said, well, do us a favor. Would you go to this apartment and go get the witnesses from this old homicide? So now it's after 12.

We're usually either in court or home. We're driving down Avenue D going to get these witnesses. And I see this guy hanging out with a bunch of other, you know, perps. Schoolboy assassin. Yes. We see him with a bunch of the regulars. He's with the regulars who were always his friend. When I see him, his face, and he sees me, his face turned every color you can imagine.

I told my partner, I said, he's dirty. Let's get him. I make a U-turn. He takes off, takes off like a deer and we chase him. He throws his bag. My partner goes after the bag. I go after him and we catch him. I catch him. He doesn't have anything on him, but we're assuming it's in the bag, which wouldn't be hard to find. He just literally flipped it. Don't you know we can't find, my partner can't find the bag. Somebody took the bag. We actually called for backup to help us look for the bag. Another, you know, we tell him another car comes, two cars come, they can't find this bag anywhere. And it wasn't like somebody could take it because

we really didn't take our eyes off of it. And didn't throw it a mile away he just threw it a few feet anyway i got this kid in the in my car um how old is he he's my so i was probably like 24 he was probably like 23 24 um uh i pat him down i come up with some dope i'm like and going back to everybody using i'm like bro what are you doing with this he says i just once in a while i say you use i was shocked to be honest because he was a clean cut looking kid i'm like you use dope he's like yeah once in a while anyway i give it back to him because i don't well i didn't give it back to him at this point, but I put him back in the car. We can't find the gun. I said, all right, we got to go get these witnesses. The gun is gone.

I said, all right, get up. He skipped out. I gave him the dope back because I wasn't going to lock him up for the dope. I didn't really care that he was a dope addict or a dope user. I didn't like him, but I wanted to get him for what I wanted to get him for, either a homicide or for a gun. So, and I couldn't be bothered with locking this guy up and spending a couple hours in court with this guy when I was supposed to get these witnesses for the homicide, Perp.

So I gave him his dope back. Just as he's about, he's got one foot on the cement, he's leaving. My partner gets in the way, he says, hold him, we got the gun. When they threw the gun, it went up a tire wheel well. And that's why they couldn't find it. It went up the tire and was stuck on the top of a tire. How'd they find it? Dogs?

No, no, no. They just eventually found it. Just by looking, they just eventually found it. And got a beautiful gun. I said, oh, sorry, bro. Going to jail. So he goes goes so we lock him up and a couple of months later he's going to take it to trial wait now what do you got him on the possession of the gun just the possession of the gun yeah

just the possession of the gun and uh he had a record anyway so he would you know he was going to do some time for the gun I don't remember if we charged him with the dope or not I probably did the dope and the gun because I'm knocking him up anyway I probably charged him with the drugs anyway so

we take him to trial he has somebody come in and say that he wasn't even that he was with him playing video games all night that he wasn't even that whole thing never happened basically That he was with him playing video games all night. That he wasn't even... That whole thing never happened, basically. That you guys didn't chase him through the streets?

He has a witness come up on the stand and say that he was with me. That witness had been arrested for perjury once. And the judge wouldn't let them bring that out in court. Come on. People don't understand that. Once you're in a judge's courtroom, they make the rules. Yeah. And the judge wouldn't... The DA couldn't believe. They you're in a judge's courtroom, they make the rules. And the judge wouldn't, the DA couldn't believe, they wouldn't let them bring that up,

that this guy was arrested for perjury once. Anyway, it becomes, it's a hung jury. So now we got to do this again, eventually. So a couple months down the road, two of the people on our wiretap, well, they weren't on the wiretap. We were already up on the wire. So me and my partner weren't working there every day. We went to DEA at this point, but we got to go back to this trial. Two of the people that were targets get killed on the FDR drive, sitting in their car. He comes up to us. You heard about the next day was his trial, the second trial. He says, you heard about Makat day was his trial the second trial he says you heard about uh maka tumor and so and so got killed i said we said yeah he said thank god i'm going to court

today because i would have been in the car with them i was with them earlier but i had to leave because i had to get ready for court today i had to go to bed so basically we saved his life which you get a thank you for that i wasn't crazy about the idea but yeah we saved his life, which... You get a thank you for that? I wasn't crazy about the idea, but yeah, we saved his life. But anyway, it was another trial and he was convicted of the gun. People in the jury came up. You could question the jury of what they thought. They were crying after the case. They had sympathy for this guy because they couldn't believe that he was a killer

and he had a gun and all this other but you guys couldn't talk about him being a killer you just because that's not admissible right it was inadmissible but i think part of his record came up all the possessions of weapons and other stuff and they still have sympathy for this guy thinking you know he was such a good kid well that's the thing like nothing is ever gonna ever going to be perfect. I recognize that. But you also have, like, the human element. If someone, you have 12 people who are sitting there who don't know you, and all they can do is look at you and get a read. And obviously, they're listening to evidence, too. That definitely plays a huge role but there's like the human element of it like even what's her name in the public in the court of public opinion like amanda knox if you remember that case she was innocent as all hell but she just kind of had a disposition that screamed like just certain things that are like oh she seems guilty right and then it all came out that she wasn't and people were

like oh sorry but that's what we do you know we're sitting there you see so they see a schoolboy looking person in court they're like this guy right he never killed anybody right but you you're out there every day you're like i've watched i see this guy blow people away left and right yeah it's it's got to be it's got to be frustrating but but at the same time like it is an important part of the process i just don't know you know like there's people who are paid millions of dollars to judge a jury right you know like that's there's always going to be loopholes well the story goes back to what you asked about the policing now if you were guys that didn't stop people right i mean yeah if i didn't if we you know if we would let

this guy go that night he would never would never have got arrested for the gun. Not that that was the heaviest crime in the world, but he did do it some time. Did he go back to the life? Yeah, so he went to jail for a short time, I don't know, maybe a couple of years. And then later on I get a call years later, I'm working somewhere completely different,

and a detective friend of mine calls me. He says, hey, we got so-and-so here. He's sitting in the jail, in the cell. He wants to talk to you. I said, he wants to talk to me? What does he want to talk to me for? He says, he'll give it up if he talks to you. I said, well, I'm actually off now, but I'll come in.

I just call my boss. I'll tell him what's going on. I'll come in. I'll talk to him. It was another shooting in the lobby that he did and supposedly he was going to confess to me by the time i got there his sister already got him a lawyer and that was all changed he didn't want to talk anymore so um so he went back to it yeah yeah but you were saying like as far as like with with the police and

why why did you bring up that story again well because by if you leave a guy like this alone like so we used to grab him all the time so let's say for me say you could call a stop question at first whether we just stop them whether we just ask him where he's going or if we first them right um when you do away with stuff like that this guy would have walked around with that gun like he was walking in the park every day but because of us because he was afraid of us he he did not do that and he did take it out after 12 o'clock at night he was carrying his gun and then he saw us unfortunately for him and you know obviously we grabbed him this is another thing like i don't i really don't have a great answer for this but it reminds me of like the whole privacy argument like i had

andrew busamante in here who he was a cia spy and he's got interesting takes on that that a lot of people these days don't agree with but he was talking about like when it comes to what the government can look at he's like if it can stop a terrorist attack look at whatever you want right and the morality behind perhaps his motivations for saying that is probably good Jim DiIorio who you and I were talking about is another one he was on the San Bernardino iPhone case so that was in 2015 where tim cook the ceo of apple did not give the password to the iphone to the fbi he wanted to but he didn't and the reason was he goes because if i give this to you now what's the next one i give to you it It's a slippery slope thing, right? And so I think it's the same argument with some of this because like I think it was the Bloomberg stop and frisk rule and everything.

Like the effects that that had on communities where they just stop. You give people the power to do whatever they want. They're stopping kids left and right. It's also – it's creating an environment where unlike you where you had to work and make friends with everyone, create an environment of us and them for a lot of people. So what I worry about, like, I understand where you're coming from with the Giuliani thing, but, like, I worry about people who are not in it for the right reasons taking advantage of stuff like that because they can. Oh, you look like you jumped over a turnstile there. I'll tell them. Who's going to believe you?

You know, that kind of thing. You know, I've been on both sides, believe it or not. Like, I've been stopped when I was, even not that long ago, you know, after being retired. But when I was an undercover or off-duty or, bro, I've been stopped by cops and I've been treated pretty shitty, too. Yeah. Even before I identified myself and even after I've identified myself. duty or bro i've been stopped by cops and i've been treated pretty shitty too even before i identify myself and even after i've identified myself guys just have that listen i'm the first

i don't have it honest to god but i don't have any cop friends that come to my house i never did you know it's just the way i am uh so i get i get all that but if you stop me and so you're not nice to me as long as you don't flake me maybe you stopped or or you stop somebody a friend of mine whatever uh as long as you don't flake them and you think the next guy you stop might be a bad guy you may be doing something right so it is it is a slippery slope but bloomberg's administration got crazy because they made it a stat. Yeah. They put it on paper.

Yeah, that's true. And that was part of like, show the cops activity. Yes. So, write 10 summonses, for argument's sake, lock up two guys a month. Quotas.

Yeah. Stop and question 20 people. Yeah. Which is bullshit. I mean, you stop and, if you don't see anybody that needs to be, and again, the word stop, question, and frisk is bullshit too because if I just talk if you don't see anybody that needs to be... And again, the word stop questioning the frisks is bullshit too because if I just talk to you, like...

We'll go back to Avenue D. There was the FDR Park. And it's a really nice... Well, it's really nice now, but back then it was a track, a track and field. And guys used to do all kinds of sports on it. So it was almost like reverse discrimination. If we saw a white guy

in Avenue D, he was there to cop dope. There were no white people on Avenue D. But there were a lot of different races down there. Well, it's mostly Hispanics and some black. Now it is more black. It was mostly Puerto Ricans.

So you were targeting Puerto Ricans more than anything well they were the ones doing the dealing but if you if I saw you you

actually you come down to Avenue D walking on Avenue D whether I was in plain clothes with my partner or in uniform I'd say

where you going I'm waiting for somebody who you waiting for they live in this taking a walk yeah they live in this building well what's the. Yeah. They live in this building. Well, what's the address?

You don't know the address? What apartment? Yeah. So I was actually targeting you because I knew you were looking to cop dope, right? So my point was there was the park. People used to walk down 6th Street to get into the FDR park.

If I saw a guy that looked like an athlete or, you know, running, I'm not going to grab him. I know he's going to the park on a nice track. He was going to run. If I see a guy that looks shitty walking towards the park, because they dealt out of the park too, then I'd say this guy's going to cop. When he comes back, he's dirty.

When he comes back, either he's going to get high in the park or he's buying a couple of bags, he's going to cop when he comes back he's dirty when he comes back he's either either he's going to get high in the park or he's buying a couple of bags he's he's going to be dirty and then i ask you where'd you go all right let me see what you got and then you're dirty so you know you gotta gotta have kind of common sense and that's a part of the job and the and i think i think it's fair to say all all all the good cops clearly do you know because they don't find themselves in those situations where it's very minimal but it's it's a tough it's just one of those things it's a tough answer too because like you talk about like racial profiling and stuff which is an issue in in certain environments for sure but there's there's another layer beneath that that you should probably ask about which is like the whole percentages profiling right so like you just

did it right there technically i'm a white guy i'm walking down avenue d you're profiling a white dude right there because wait that is not usually percentage wise not a lot of white people around here right right so i get get that. That makes sense. I think when people take advantage of it and use it on swaths of entire communities, that's probably where people run into problems. But I don't know. It's certainly a tough thing. where drugs are as we said the way of life there's probably things that you like human understandings of who does what and why they do the things they do that you have that you may even take for granted just because you're in there every day that like the average police officers work in the beat they

don't have any of that right you know what i mean like they don't have that that's why i like when i see cops actually going out and developing a relationship with the community right and they mean it right like they're they're putting themselves in a position to have to do some of the things that you did as a plains clothes guy right you know like my partner and i um you know we we couldn't comprehend how the city would let this alphabet city go so bad. You know, there's a lot of good people in the projects. Kids, you see kids, I actually wrote about in my book, instead of kicking the can on the way to school,

they'd be kicking hypodermic needles back and forth to each other. It's crazy. Crazy, man. Like stuff we don't even, can't even contemplate. You know, you turn around for a second and your little baby's picking up a empty bag of heroin Or half, you know, they never empty unless you know, there's always residue on it so they playing with residue bags of heroin and

Then they have it on their fingers and they touch their face or it's crazy. What's crazier is that four blocks away? There's three townhomes that just sold for six million dollars a piece exactly that's what's wild to me like you see like if you go down park avenue just straight right yep rich rich rich rich rich rich rich not rich that's right it's like crazy it's it's a really scary thing but that's how like society's weird like that i know towns like that around here where it's like when we're driving through one the other day. I had somebody in town and I was like, oh, yeah, like this right there. And then boom, like all of a sudden it's like, whoa, where did we go?

Right. You know, that's – It's tough, man. It kind of doesn't make sense to me. But anyway, so you did that for like nine years. But the DEA stuff, was that just the one case with all the Puerto Ricans or did you work on further things what happened was after that case

we wrapped it up we did the clerical and everything had to go along with it the interviews the grand juries all that bullshit but then eventually my chief they kept me and my partner up there in the DEA drug enforcement and my chief, they kept me and my partner up there, uh, in the, in the DEA, drug enforcement.

And my chief asked me, he actually asked me twice, kind of for the same, the same favor twice. One, the first one I believe was Coney Island. My chief was a regular captain. He had the command in Coney Island and there were these guys in Coney Island that used to just mess with him, like salute him and give him the finger. And every time he drove by, and they were bad guys. They were, one guy had shot at an undercover.

And they were known, like I had known them when I was, I had known the name when I was, there was a rookie in uniform. And they were like a whole family. And he said, Mike, if you could do anything try to do me a favor would you go get those uh and he you know he told me the names and i recognize the names so i went and i got some their bci photo that picked you know their mug shots and i just started hanging around corny island i didn't even tell the agents because i couldn't have agents surveilling me. So you're undercover. Yeah, right.

So now I got a DEA undercover car and I would wear like regular clothes, T-shirts, tank tops so they know I wouldn't have, I didn't carry a gun. So they knew I wasn't a cop or they would assume I wasn't a cop. And I would just keep letting people, letting these bad guys see me on Mermaid Avenue, on Stilwell Avenue, wherever, Surf Avenue rather. And then one day one of the guys was getting gas, one of the main targets. And I pulled up next to him to get gas. And he had a Mercedes at the time, a nice Mercedes. And there were no leased cars back then. So if you had a nice car car that means you bought it and um he had a nice car and i'd get out

and start talking to him and he saw you know he you know i kind of introduced myself and then eventually i'm sure he remembered me and i meet a female from the project and i tell her this i'm looking to cop heavyweight and she says oh well i a guy. And that's the guy she introduces me to. And I end up buying away from him and his brother and basically the whole Coney Island crew. We took down,

we eventually took down 17 pretty big guys from Coney Island. When you bought it, was it one of those where they all descended immediately upon the handoff? No, no, no.

It was a long-term case. Got it. Yeah, it was like an eight-month case. Yeah, we did a wiretap on one of them guys, too. And, yeah, we did a good case, actually. But your chief in the NYPD asked for this, but you were acting as a DEA agent. Right, right. How does that work?

Well, he assigned us there you know he was the chief that got us up yes said go ahead go uh and then the dea didn't care you know in other words they were happy to have a case going it was a good case one of their agents got officially assigned to the case on their end after i made made the introduction, when I was ready to buy, I took the agents with me, of course. They did surveillance and, you know, but that took quite a few weeks until I got, or months until I got friendly with these guys that I let surveillance come into the case. Because, again, I couldn't be seen. seen which have been enough i'm a white guy from brooklyn that they didn't trust and now they're gonna see maybe seven or eight unmarked cars or plain clothes on the cover cars or white guys in cars it would have never worked yeah so did you i mean here's the other thing though like

it sounds like you didn't have any formal undercover training you just went into this right i didn't actually that's ballsy yeah it was fun yeah it was i mean listen i was a young guy i had no family to worry about no wife no kids i just worried about myself and you know i was able to take care of myself for the most part but it's like a hard job though too like it's acting and you're never off and you have to be around you know in wild situations and convince people yeah like it's a crazy whenever i talk with people who've done undercover work i'm like whoa and it seems like you're just like huh okay another day at the office you know i i you know the thing about it is i if you are looking to search the web privately and not

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$4.99 a month. It is the same one I use. You're going to love it. So check it out and it supports the show. I hung around with bad kids as a kid, bad guys. I know what bad guys are thinking, you know, not of course not always, but you hang around enough knuckleheads you know what a guy's thinking um i knew if i could get work the greed factor in and make them feel like how they were gonna make money off me it would work and what happened in this case was kind of interesting the the female who i initially meet she says i think i know somebody that you you would like to meet and she calls up some uh she beeped some guy he meets me uh at a diner he's an italian guy that was in an accident and he was a paraplegic oh quadriplegic or paraplegic he had like a he had a special vehicle because he

couldn't use his legs i think he could only use part of his one of his arms anyway he had gotten into an accident with a car that was delivering a cadillacs you know when you see one of the big oh yeah and part of the deal and he lived yeah and part of the deal was he gets a brand new cadillac every year believe it or not that was the deal he told me that's like the bobby vanilla contract isn't that crazy wow right so she introduces me to this guy comes, he meets me. Italian guy, you said. Yeah. He was a little older than me at the time.

And he tells me, what are you doing? You know, what are you doing with this? And really, which I didn't know at the time, but she was a prostitute for him. That's how she knew him. She was a hooker that he would pay. He says, what are you doing? I said, yeah, I'm looking for a cop. Some crack, maybe some dope, some weight.

He says, all right, I'll get you, guys. Now, they all knew him, and he was a user, drug user. So they all knew he was a messed up guy. He calls them, and again, they see me, and he vouched for me, which he shouldn't. me which he shouldn't of course he shouldn't he didn't know me from a hole in the world other than

I was an Italian guy from Brooklyn he was Italian he was actually mobbed up a little bit his family was and he vouched for me and once he vouched for me

I was actually in pretty good shape that's all it takes you know once you're like in and that's what they all say, they're like, once you're in, then it gets easier. I guess, I don't know, maybe I overthink it because I'm still thinking every time someone says something

where it's like, ooh, there's a code word, you're processing in your head. And you're like, okay, well, how do I get them from there to there? And I'm just picturing my overthinking ass in that situation, just like, I'd probably be wearing it on my face. Just like, oh, yeah, let's do that. In this case, it's kind of interesting. I was actually meeting them on Stilwell Avenue at a diner to do a deal.

This is down Coney Island? Yeah, Coney Island. And a guy from my neighborhood, a very connected guy from my neighborhood, who was my sister's age, which is two years older than me, used to come to my house, swim in my swimming pool, played football, was a linebacker. I knew him really well we were really friendly and like I said he was a connected guy he was doing all kinds of construction projects new Sammy the Bull knew all these guys he pulls up he had a Rolls Royce at the time and I'm in the diner with these black guys hanging out outside and he pulls up in his Rolls Royce and I I swear I must have I must have shit when I saw him because the first thing I figured he was going to say is,

hey, Mike, what's up? How's everything? How's the job? So I see him, and he comes out of the car. He sees me. He gives me a big hug and a kiss, like a mob kiss and hug. Goes into the diner. He don't say a word.

Comes out, says goodbye. Did they see that? They saw it, and they were like amazed they made him for a mobster just by his looks so what what'd they say to you they're like oh they didn't say anything but they just assumed from that little interaction that i'm who i say i am wow and it worked so i see him years later he's i put that story in my book i see him years later at a week and he says to me page 84 right i said that's right because i changed his name in the book he said i remember that's wild yeah

yeah he knew i was doing work you know and uh he was sharp enough not to give it up basically there's an understanding there yeah that's interesting yeah but you didn't just do drug stuff right you got into other things no yeah well later on i got into some other pretty cool stuff like how how later on like how many years were you just doing drug work so i did uh well i did the plane clothes on the avenue uh then i went we went in DEA probably like 88, 1988. And that was like a few years kind of deal? Yeah, and I think I got out of there about 91, say 91, 92.

And then what happened? Then I went into the detective bureau as a regular detective sergeant. And then for a short time, I ended up in missing person squad, which was part of special investigations. Now, here's a good question how did they decide like because you have to get someone who becomes good at that had to get started there at some point like how they decide to put you in that obviously like you're a talented cop but like you'd worked in in drugs so are they saying oh because he was a plains clothes guy who had to make friends with everyone in the community like are they doing any of that tie together no and actually missing

persons isn't like a prestigious unit really yeah i mean it's part of special investigations which is a prestigious prestigious division missing persons um it's like a stepping stone for a lot of bosses for sergeants which was what i was And then from there you go to better units or other units. But in general, the thing about missing persons, people don't really, which I never got, and I was a cop and I still never understood it. Most missing persons or missing people come back. So there's not like thousands of cases

of really intense cases of where these people went. They were like runaways, separated parents, the father takes the kid from the mother, and they come back. If they're runaways, they come home. Custodial disputes, they settle them. So there's not many hard-pressing cases in missing person. Is that your operating MO when you hear about it? So when you hear one come in, are you thinking like, okay, it's probably a runaway? Yeah, well, as a boss, I would get it after the detective got it. And then, you know, if it was something heavy, a detective would say, oh, this is bad.

But for the most part, they're not bad. There's nothing going on. It's very rarely. High profile would be if a lot of times there's a family member who's a politician and his kid went missing, like legitimately maybe ran away or got involved with drugs and took off or something like that. Then it becomes a big deal because he's a politician or he donates to politics, that kind of thing. But in general, and then you have some high-profile cases like Etan Pates,

who was the first missing kid on the milk container. What happened there? So that was like 1979. The mother's looking out the window in Soho. For the first time, she's letting her kid go to school by himself, take the school bus by himself. And she's looking out the window and she turns her head, according to basically all accounts, for like a minute. Maybe to attend to one of her other kids, I don't remember. And when she turns back, the kid is gone.

And he's never seen again. And the bus hadn't come. Yeah, and the bus hadn't come. And he never went to school that day. And so like a case like that. What was his name? Etan Pates. Etan Pates.

Okay. So that was before your time, though. That was before my time. But the case I got involved with, it had to do with ethan pates and son of sam and a bunch of other stuff okay that's the case from the missing person case all right so explain this one how'd that happen okay so when i was in missing person um i got to work two i got to work a couple of good cases that was one one of them, Son of Sam. And the other one was a guy named Andre Rand.

They did a documentary about him called The Cropsey. He was like a child serial killer from St. Allen. But this particular case, and that kind of ties into this a little bit because they think Andre Rand was involved with the satanic cult that these people were involved with. But I don't think he was. I never found evidence that he was. All right, we'll come back to that.

Yeah. So when I'm in this person, I get a call from an inmate at Attica. And he tells me... Attica! Yeah. Attica! And it's bad up there.

In fact, I went with a detective, and he had a camera. And he said, I'm going to take a picture of this place. And all of a sudden we hear, like from a booming speaker, drop your effing camera. We're like, what?

So he throws the camera. Apparently you're not allowed to take pictures of Attica from the parking lot. That's interesting. Yeah, I didn't know that. Nothing to hide there, I guess. Yeah, he was up in the uh the the tower with a rifle so i get a call from this inmate at attica and he tells me that he now this is in like 1997 let's say the kid disappeared in 1979 ethan pates oh so you get a call from an inmate in attica about ethan

got it so this is years later years later and he tells me he's got information about ethan pates Eton Pates. Oh, so you get a call from an inmate in Attica about Eton. Got it. So this is years later. Years later. And he tells me he's got information about Eton Pates, but he screws the name all up, which... He also wants something, obviously. Yeah, he's going up for parole soon, and he wants to get paroled. But the fact that he screwed the name up

kind of raised my antenna a little bit because I figured at the time I thought, you know, internet wasn't big then if it was even existed. And when he screwed the name up, I figured if he was lying to me, he would have his information straight. He would have the kid's name exact. You know, he would have everything straight. And he didn't. He had the name wrong, but close. You know, he would have everything straight. And he didn't. He had the name wrong, but close. Close enough, you know, but wrong. Anyway, we go up there.

I bring a detective with me. We go up to Attica. And let me go back a little bit. So he's in jail for sodomizing his infant daughter, this guy. The guy who called you. Yes. And he's also a 1% biker, vice president of a biker gang.

What? The name of the gang is called the Rat Pack. And they were under, I think, they were under the Hells Angels, maybe the Mongols, I don't remember. He sodomized his infant daughter. Yeah, he had two kids. And I think he did both,

but the infant daughter for sure. I don't remember if the other kid was a boy or a girl. And he did it with the wife. And the wife, I think, testified against him. So they gave her some kind of deal. That guy wasn't in jail for life? No, he was coming out. He was coming out on parole, if he made parole. Okay.

Yeah. And we actually saw pictures of some of the stuff he was doing was horrendous. Obviously. But in any event, so he's got this information that he's been holding in

according to him. So he's this big 350-pound biker guy. The COs are like, man, be careful. He wants to stay with you in the room. It's a little room, small room. He wants to stay with you. He's a violent guy.

We're not going to let him because he may not talk in front of them. He certainly doesn't want other people knowing he's giving information up. Yeah. So, of course not. But in any event, what he tells us is that him and his biker gang were contracted to do these, securing these locations in Yonkers and Westchester, these mansions. And in these mansions, there was satanic stuff going on, rituals, drugs, all kinds of drugs, all kinds of crazy sex and satanic rituals what is it all right when when people say satanic rituals I've never googled this so like what what are they doing well I'm like I'm sure they do different things on different nights maybe they're just worshiping statues of Satan and

other crap like that. Hey, whatever gets you off, man. Yeah. Well, you know, and I always say that. I think it was a big part of it was the sex and drug stuff. Okay. You know, just to get, you know. That's how it appeared anyway to me.

That's my belief. But, yeah, so he was, they were, so the idea was that they were contracted to secure the premises to make sure cops didn't come in and civilians that weren't invited basically to these rituals or parties or whatever you want to call them. And eventually he's done so many that they get to know him and they get to know the president of the gang, the biker gang. And they wore their colors to scare any, you know, pain in the asses away, and, you know.

And, so now they have like free reign of these parties. They walk in and out, him and the president. And at some point, they walk in, and they're doing a ritual, satanic ritual,

and it has to do with this kid Eton. They call, now this is according to him. His name was John Lentini he's since died this is the guy who called you with the info yeah Tiny was his nickname so Tiny

becomes friends with these guys he walks into the ritual and he says there's an altar and they call up the kid by name. They do some kind of satanic prayers. They measure him with some kind of rope and then they're going to sacrifice him. And he says he leaves before they sacrifice him

and the other guy leaves also, the other biker, but he says they sacrificed the kid. But he says he doesn't see it. So this is years ago. This was years ago. So he was saying that the literal live Eton was in there. Right. And they, wow.

Right. Okay. But that's obviously not what ended up being true. Well, why do you say that? Because they made an arrest? Yeah. Yeah. Well, listen, I say it all the time.

I'm not going, I can't, I can only give my opinion. I don't know, I didn't take any action in that Hernandez case. That's the guy who did, they arrested for Eton Pace. Yeah, not long ago. Not that long, a few years ago yeah the first jury was a hung jury i think and then they convicted him on the second trial yeah he got arrested in like 2012 or something and then convicted in like 2017 or something like that something like that right okay so he had a history of mental problems yeah he was also like i think

he was legally mentally retarded or something like that. So, let's back up then. Right. So, you, this guy tells you that they sacrificed a kid in a house in Westchester. Right. Then what happens? Okay. So, this guy Tiny was a bright guy. Just, I hate to say that because people always say this mass murder, not that he was a mass

murderer, but these guys are intelligent. But he really was. He was talking about stuff back then that he was giving, like, way too much information. Like, we had to keep honing him back into the story. And, again, there was no internet. And even if there was, addicts don't have access to the internet. Right.

Right? Like, he was just giving an example. He was talking about, and we met, I think, once or once or once maybe twice but we had several conversations because he kept calling trying to get out what's going on what's going on i mean he talked about the bilderberg group back in 97 he talked about that uh where alex jones went that grove the the fucking uh out in california yeah i went out to the grove Yeah, I can't think of it. I can never remember the name of it. They were worshiping an owl and fucking each other. But you know what?

This guy was talking about it. Yeah. You know? So he had a lot of information. He was... Where was he getting it? So he got the one information from Guard in the House, but what about the other stuff?

Was that all from the same shit? Yeah, from the same group. The supposed cult Bohemian growth I forget that first right me too all the time So he's so he had gotten all this years ago had sat on it and now he's telling you all well this the homicide happened Years ago and actually he had done security for them even prior to the kid being taken. He had started security for them in like 76, 77.

Actually crossed paths with David Berkowitz, according to him. Can you tell people real fast who David Berkowitz was, for those who don't know? So David Berkowitz was nicknamed or called the son of sam or a 44 caliber killer and he was a serial killer well if you believe the the narrative or the arrest that he worked alone and he killed i think six people and shot like eight people and um he did a lot of shootings were lovers lane type shootings male and female um although he did a lot of shootings where lovers lane type shootings, male and female.

Although he did two females at once and one female by herself. And that was from 1976. And he gets arrested July of 76 to August 77. Yeah, it was like a big scare. Yeah. And women were changing the color of their hair because they thought he was talking. Females were long black hair. So they were changing their hair color, keeping their hair up and, you know, like a bun so he couldn't.

Maybe I'm remembering this wrong. Isn't he now one, because he's like reformed and prison or whatever, but isn't he one of the people saying he didn't act alone? Well, what happened was when he got caught, he said that his neighbor's dog told him to do it right and the neighbor was sam car and the dog so that's why he got the son of sam right but um and he said the dog told him to do it that's what he said initially and then uh a few years later he said that's not really what happened he said i was part of this cult the satanic cult and um we did this together other people were involved there were other shooters people that drove um he admitted to doing a couple of them but he said there were other people involved i don't remember was he from wealth or was he yeah he was kind of

yeah like like a loner working class yeah he was in the army for a little while. I think he was a postman, actually, when they arrested him. So has he said how he got allegedly caught up with that cult? Yeah, well, from Yonkers. He said he was from Yonkers, and that's what a cult. There were individuals involved with it there, and he just got involved with the wrong crowd who were using drugs and involved with Satan and all that crap, and that's why he got involved. Okay, so that's like a whole other narrative there. But then why did we bring up the Son of Sam again?

Because Tiny crossed paths with him. Oh, he crossed paths with him directly. Right. But this guy, you know, he wasn't going in the rich neighborhoods, though, because Tiny was doing security for serious people. Yeah, but they also met in Yonkers in different locations, regular house parties in Untermyer Park, where they supposedly met, where his cult supposedly met on occasion. So they supposedly sacrificed this kid and Tiny had information on it.

He saw it. Well, he doesn't see the actual sacrifice. He says he left at the time, which perps always say that. They don't really put themselves in the mix. Which doesn't mean they're lying, but it could be lying about themselves always say that. They don't really put themselves in the mix. So. Which doesn't mean they're lying but it could be lying about themselves

where they're at because they always say well I left before that happened but it happened. Somehow they knew it happened. Right.

Did he say like how they did it or? No. I think yeah I think it was I think they sacrificed him with some

like a stabbing situation. Yeah. So he had all this information, but we needed to verify it. Because, you know, basically he's telling us a story. And he gave us a lot of information. He gave us some names. A lot of names were old nicknames that didn't really help us.

He gave us some names of people that were dead for years. But he gave us some things that were really credible that really panned out. Like what? One of the things he had said, that one of the other biker gang members gets involved with the cult also. And he does a Son of Sam-like killing killing or shooting i don't remember if the people died

or they just got shot over in cypress hills which is and the victims were black the shooter was black the biker guy was a black guy and he said it was never attributed to son of sam because the victims were black as opposed to all the other ones that were white yeah and like the women and everything so it didn't get so um well so he gives us that and he gives us something and i'll tell you how we check that out and then he gives us he says all right i'll tell you about another um sacrifice he said then maybe you'll find it so he tells us there was a female that were hanging out with him, the president of the gang, and a couple of the other satanic guys, people, in Forest Hills Park in Queens.

Now, the whole district changed regarding the precincts. Everything changed. In other words, it's not the, I don't know, 104th Precinct anymore. So the paperwork was going to be really hard to find. But in any event, he says, I don't know, 104th Preaching anymore. So the paperwork was going to be really hard to find. But in any event, he says, I don't remember the exact year. He says, but it was cold, snow on the ground. The woman had a tattoo on her back of her son or man's name. I forgot.

I think it turned out to be her son's name. And we told her we were just going to use her for a bloodletting, like a ceremony, take some blood, cut her a little bit and take some blood. And she was into it, the girl. And we laid her on one of those cement tables, you know, like the way they play checkers or chess on. Yeah. They lay her on the table, and they take this heavy sword,

like from the Renaissance ages kind of looking sword, and when she thinks she's going to be blessed with it, the president of the biker gang actually crashes it down on her chest. He says, if you could find that case, that'll prove that this sacrifice did happen. So it took us a long time. I had some civilian in one police plaza that was really a hard worker. He found the case. And sure as hell, there was a DOA female found in the snow with a tattoo of a man's name

on it. I think the son's name. Holy shit. snow with a tattoo of a man's name on the sun's name and the the best part is the first person that the first or only person that the detectives talked to was the president of the biker gang and he basically said yeah i know her um i haven't seen her but he was one of the only people that the detectives talked to. And he knew what had happened to her. He was the one that did it, according to Tiny. So they got it.

Okay. I thought I might have heard that wrong, but I did hear that right. The biker gang themselves ended up getting involved with the cold itself. Right. And they weren't just protecting it anymore. They were like in it. Well, not all the bikers. Some of them. Some of them. And the president of the gang was a guy who was in on it yeah so when

even when they were up in westchester and stuff he was actually in addition to security he's like in there right got it right he didn't do the kid he didn't have anything to do with the kid he was just watching at that point and then later he becomes like a high priest him and tiny high priest yeah they become like high oh so tiny got really deep too yeah tiny gets really deep yeah is that perhaps why he later committed said crime on infant well he was in for his daughter that's the case he was in on oh yeah right well because the whole thing is like their whole MO, basically, is crazy sex. And sex with kids and minors.

What the fuck? So he fit right in. He fit right in. No, but that's what I'm saying. Did he become that because he was there? Or was he already doing that shit? I'm? Or was he already doing that shit? I'm assuming he was probably already doing that. And that just attracted this...

It was something that... He found like-minded people. I'm really glad I can't relate to this, but what makes you want to do that? If it's not driven by a cult, where you are literally... You lose your fucking mind, I guess. Then it's not driven by a cult where you are literally, you lose your fucking mind, I guess then it's possible.

But like, if he was already doing that before, like what the fuck is wrong with you? Yeah, well, I mean, later on when he, he finally makes parole, not because of us. But anyway,

later, years later, he marries another female. Oh, God. Right? And her first husband was a pedophile, arrested for pedophilia. Then she marries this guy. Oh, she's got a type. Yeah, that's what I said. She's got a type. And when she got pregnant by him, the state of Pennsylvania took the kid away from her

just because of the idiot that she was married to. I actually don't feel bad for her because she knowingly married him. Yeah, well, like you said, her first husband was a pedophile and then she married this guy. Sick fuck. She had kids taken away from her prior. Good. You know what? In that case, good.

Yeah. So he gives you this case where he is able to review, describe the tattoo perfectly, the individual, the approximate time, the way she was killed and everything. And was there, but was there a way that you guys were able to check it to see if he was just taking something else where the killing happened, blunt force trauma with something to the chest? Yeah, well, we found the, the ME report said that that's exactly what she was killed from. Not from the sharpness of a blade, but the breaking of the sternum and the ribs and everything else. Just like he said, because he told us the knife wasn't a sharp knife, or the sword wasn't sharp. In fact, it was heavy and dull. So how could, here's my question.

Did you check out to see if like, oh, they just killed her for something else? And like killed her in a bar fight? Something stupid. just killed her for something else and like killed her in a bar fight something stupid no because uh the president biker gang had long been dead and the original detectives had no one else to talk there was no one else to talk to basically because they had no one on the uh complaint report basically other than the biker guy and he's dead so could they have killed her

that way for another reason you know I'm sure they could have yeah that would be my question there but he gave us another one he gave us yeah he gave us another one so

is this all from one meeting one meeting and a couple of phone calls yeah because like I said he wanted to get out he didn't want parole to let him out so the second one is

the black biker guy his partner another one percenter did that shooting and he was in jail at the time actually he was in jail at the time. Actually, he was in jail on another sexual crime.

That guy was, the black biker, but that's besides the point. Anyway, he says, go talk to this guy. Maybe he'll give up the Cypress Hill shootings and the Son of Sam type shootings they were and the cult. He knows about Eton and he wasn't there, but he knows about it. So just to review, your guy is telling you to go talk to this other guy? Who's also an inmate somewhere else. Somewhere else. Sing Sing.

Oh, nice. Yeah. Okay. You're hitting the best prisons. Yeah, they only go to the best prisons. Yeah, okay. Yeah. So I said, well well there's no incentive for

this guy to talk to me why why would he give up a shooting that he did he says there is he says he gets in a fight in brooklyn uh east new york brownsville i don't remember where he remembered i don't remember he says he gets in a fight in Brooklyn over a basketball game. He goes to his car. He takes out a gun. He shoots this guy in front of a whole park full of people playing basketball and watching this particular game. Never gets arrested for it. Nobody questioned him about it.

The guy dies. Everybody was afraid of him. Nobody said anything. Did they get rid of the body? I don't think so. I think he just shoots the guy and leaves. Okay. Because he was a scary guy. Nobody said anything. Did they get rid of the body? I don't think so. I think he just shoots the guy and leaves. Okay. Because he was a scary guy. So no witnesses.

A park full of witnesses, but nobody came forward. Yeah, that's my point. They're not talking. Right, nobody's talking. He says, if you could get him to confess, maybe you've got something with this that could help. So what I do is I take a manila folder, I put yellow pages in it, I write some information on the folder, and I go up there, that sync thing.

And I told the folder on the desk, I said, you see that? I said, that's the case. And I found the shooting incident, the actual DOA in the park, shooting victim in the park. So I knew when it was, what year, what day, and all that stuff. I said, this case is your victim that you shot. These are witnesses. You're going to go to jail for that homicide in the park.

As soon as you get out of here, you're not going home from here. We're locking you up for this homicide. So he was shocked because he thought he was, you know, that was the least of his worries. All these years later, he thought he was in good shape. But you didn't really have anything. I had nothing. No, nothing. Smooth.

Yeah. So he says, how do I get out of that? You know, how do I get away from this? I said, well, tell me about the shooting in Cyprus, the Son of Sam shooting. Tell us about the cult. Tell us about the shooting. And this was the black biker. Yeah.

And he does. He gives up the shooting. And to a black guy and black girl who were making out, he gets out of his car. He shoots them, gets in his car, and he leaves. He writes out a full statement. Confessing. Confesses to that. And he confesses to the shooting in the park how does this happen like how do you like i've heard a lot about the psychology

of like the whole rapport building which has also been used for bad by the way obviously to get people to confess to things they didn't do but like you have somebody in a room you haven't been there for two three four hours whatever it is in a prison how do you start with i have this case against you no no no don't fuck how do i get out of this to eventually working all the way around to get another case and then get him to even confess on that and feel good about it well i mean his incentive was to get out of jail you know it wasn't that hard but now you're taking him to to trial for two homicides yeah so like how does this happen yeah well you're allowed to lie

but yeah ugh that's wild yeah so he gives up so now you have two that were described perfectly right

and you are buying the whole satanic thing it had you gone back and because you weren't involved in the case because it was before you but had you gone back and pulled the son of sam files um i don't think we i mean maybe maybe not i don't remember maybe some i mean the files are thousands of files yeah there's a lot so i don't think we took many of them did you go talk to him well what happens is um well just to backtrack just a little bit sure sure so tiny's gang was in brooklyn and manhattan the bike they had clubhouses uh borderline brooklyn queens bushwick i don't know if you're familiar with bushwick or Ridgewood, actually. It's Borderline Brooklyn Queens.

So I'm only pointing this out because it kind of goes to show that he was giving me information that was honest at a lot of points, tiny, maybe not everything. So at some point I asked him about his guns, and he said, oh, you always used to carry, I forgot what it was, nothing, I don't think it's anything heavy, maybe like a.25. And I asked him, where'd you get that.25? And he says, I bought it off,

I used to buy my guns off this guy Harry in Ridgewood. And I asked him to describe Harry. So he says, yeah, Harry's a big, muscular Puerto Rican guy,

older, he goes through the whole thing. So I grew up in Canarsie, Brooklyn, which is probably 45 minutes from Ridgewood. But I used to train in a gym on St. Nicholas Avenue at Myrtle, which is considered Ridgewood, is Ridgewood, Queens.

And Queens is considered Brooklyn and Queens, whatever. So there was a boxing gym downstairs and upstairs was a weightlifting gym. And most of the gym was Spanish and black. And I said, Harry. And I said to myself, I think I know who Harry is. So I go to my old gym. I hadn't been there in years at this point.

In fact, the gym had moved. Not too far, but it had moved from where its original location. I go there one day. Don't you know harry's there oh my god and he sees me and he hugs me because i hadn't seen him in many years since i've been there you're like i'm not here for that yeah yeah so i asked him i said harry let me ask you something you remember a guy named tiny he said yeah yeah and he knew i was a cop harry knew at this point i think he knew i was a cop i I already knew it. At this point, I think he knew I was a cop. I was young when I went there.

I went there from the time I was 17 to my early 20s. I said, do you ever sell tiny guns? And he said, yeah. I sold him quite a few guns. I said, okay. Turn around? Throw the cuffs on? Put your hands behind your back?

No. All right. So what happens behind your back. All right. So what happens next for real? All right. So anyway, confirmed a couple of things with Tiny. So now we have enough, at least I figured, where we could go talk to Berkowitz. Son of Sam. Son of Sam.

And see, you know, he gives us all the stuff that we kind of verify, a lot of stuff we couldn't. He gave us a location way up in upstate New York that there might be dead bodies buried in the ground. And the father let us check the grounds. And then we were going to get the ground-penetrating radar. This particular guy's father said, no, no, that I'm not, you know, that I'm not going to let you do. I'm not going to let you dig my yard. But anyway, he gave us,

like, the fact that he gave us this location and it turned out to be a legit location. Anyway, now we're going to go talk to Berkowitz and see if we get him to give up some of these names that he was going to give up. He had, at some point, decided to talk,

tell the truth, that he was involved with a cult. I think it was after everything too, right? Well, yeah. First he said the dog nonsense. Yeah. Then a couple years later, he's going to give it up.

He gets, they grab him, meaning inmates grab him and slice him up and he just misses Juggler vein. And when that happened, he said, I'm never going to talk again.

I got family on the outside. He got spooked. They, you know, if their intention was to keep him from talking it worked but anyway we made a reservation appointment to go see him and the bosses on the pd cut told me not to go i made appointments again kind of on the qt and they found out they told me again not to go and basically that's where the case died wow okay that's sketchy crazy right that's very sketchy that has me asking some questions you know i always used to say that i've heard police people police personnel in the past whether it's federal or local say the

you know the case was shut down and I always said to myself those bullshit cases don't get shut down my case got shut down because you didn't go see him well

because they won't let us go see him and they told us to stop working on the case basically oh they told you to stop working on this altogether right

right that's scary see like there's a thing and it's sad that the world works this way but if i look at this unbiased for a second and let's let's assume everyone is an okay actor none of them are evil or whatever but like you start with a huge case like that like son of sam and then you have some other huge case with ethan pates right right and so son of sam gets solved right quote unquote you at least have someone who you know was involved and congratulations you can walk the streets again in new york we did our job ethan doesn't get solved and then it kind of floats away and it's like okay well we fucked that one up so let's just kind of forget about that and there becomes this human thing where if a case

gets out of control like you the facts you find like stuff you did is inconvenient meaning it's not just like oh he was bludgeoned to death by a homeless guy on the corner so it involves like a lot of people money power it can get to a point where it's like are we all going to lose our jobs if we now tell the truth that we found out what happened because we did our jobs to find out what happened you know what i mean there's a weird psychology to it that i i don't want to say i understand but like i don't envy the people who are in that position but it doesn't make it it doesn't make the the result of maybe in the case of like shutting down case it doesn't make that right you know what i mean like that's still wrong it's just like you have been handed a lose-lose

bring it out heads are gonna roll you don't bring it out heads might roll or at the very least like you you didn't do your job and you got to live with that that's heavy yeah man i mean he had given us uh like according to tiny and again you know the information i'm giving is what i what i got so you could either some people say yeah it's true and whatever it's not true but he gave us information regarding like people with a lot of money were involved. Like the Manhattan DA's nephew was involved with the cult and this one. And when you hear it, you say, ah, it's bullshit.

Let's go. And then when you find out, they cut the case out. Like, oh, maybe somebody heavy was involved. Or people with money are involved. And people are going to get embarrassed. They made a collar. Everybody was happy. The shootings apparently all appeared to stop.

Was that, as far as your time working on the missing persons unit, was that the firework? Was that obviously the main case of memory of note well that one in the andre rand who was they say might have been connected to this cult but like i don't believe he was okay yeah we said we come back to that so what was the story there so andre rand was a guy from st allen who i don't know if you remember willowbrook do you remember willowbrook harold over did that big expose no so willowbrook was you remember willowbrook haraldo avera did that big expose no so willowbrook was a uh a state-run hospital mental facility for mentally handicapped yeah one of those but

really bad he blew the lid off of it like he somehow got in with a camera and they were naked you know mentally disturbed people uh living in feces and their own piss. They were treated terrible and it became a whole big thing, man. It literally blew the lid off of what was going on in there. They were being mistreated. It was like a hellhole. And nobody apparently knew what was going on there. And somehow, like I said, Geraldo Rivera befriended somebody,

and he got in. He got in with a camera, and there's a video of it, of Willowbrook, which is in Staten Island. Well, this guy Andre Van worked there. First as a maintenance guy, and then he worked there as a physical therapist.

How he became a physical therapist is beyond me, because he had no qualifications. But that just goes to show what was going on there. And they weren't doing physical therapy for these people. Like I said, if you ever see the video, it's ridiculous. Maybe I can also find it while you're talking.

What years are we talking here when he was doing this? I think the expose was in the mid-70s. Early 70s. Willowbrook. You can't miss it they'll come right up i'm sure willowbrook mental hospital let's see 1972 yeah oh wow yeah ronaldo rivera has been around a long time huh yeah that's what made his career i didn't know anything about this. I also don't know a hell of a lot about him.

Yeah. All right, I think this is probably going to get, if I stick it on YouTube, I'm using someone else's content, so I can't put it up. But for people that want to look it up, it's called Willowbrook, The Last Great Disgrace, Geraldo Rivera, 1972 expose. So you can check that out.

It's a 27-minute documentary. Okay, so he figures out how to get in there yeah so he gets in there with a camera but uh this guy andre ran work there like i said yes first the maintenance guy then a physical therapist whatever and um he's mentally not um i guess i don't know how to put it gently, but not where he should be. He's slow, I guess. I don't know what terminology it was. That's what they would have used back then, I guess. And one of the female workers goes missing,

and he was like the last guy seen with her. Then this is going back to the early 80s. A little girl, he targeted children that had mental disorders for the most part so they were putting kids in this hospital yeah but that ain't where he was getting these kids from he worked there he also lived on the grounds it's on it was like a 30 uh i'm sorry like a 300 acre ground uh the ground the willowbrook was on 300 acres and he also lived on the ground and then they closed Willowbrook at some point and there's all these underground tunnels and stuff

and he lived in there and there were other homeless people that lived in those tunnels and they connected one building to the other and all that so he was living as a homeless person working there yeah and no one knew that no one knew that, No one knew that, no.

And in the 80s, well, first there's a missing woman that they think he may have killed in the 70s. And then at some point he steals a school bus and he goes to like the YMCA and he takes 11 kids on the school bus and he takes them to Newark Airport to look at the airplane. So he basically kidnapped 11 kids. They catch him for that. They lock him, you know. I think he was planning on doing some kind of damage to them,

but he couldn't figure out what to do with all these kids, and he got, like, overwhelmed. And they arrest him for that. I think he only does, like, 10 or 11 months. And then when he comes out, a bunch of different kids go missing, they arrest him for that I think he only does like 10 or 11 months and then from when he comes out a bunch of different kids go missing

mentally handicapped uh Jesus girl another a guy a bunch of

a bunch of people go missing and then in 1981 and then he eventually gets arrested for one of them a girl named uh I think her name was...

Jeez, I'm throwing a blank. Anyway, he gets arrested for one of these. Tia Heasey Jackson? Yeah, I don't think he gets arrested for her. Anne Hughes? Nope. That's the one I worked on, actually. That's the case I'm going to tell you about.

Alice Pereira? Nope. The next one, I think. Those are the three. Sure, sure, actually. That's the case I'm going to tell you about. Alice Pereira? No, the next one, I think. Those are the three. Something with an S. I don't know. Anyway, in 1987, he gets arrested, I think, for her killing. Okay, wait, hold on.

There's something down here. Jennifer Schweiger? That's it. Jennifer Schweiger. Got it. Yeah, he gets arrested for Jennifer Schweiger's killing. He's the last person they see him with. They see her with him.

And it says she was born with Down syndrome, was reported missing on July 9th. 87 witnesses spotted Jennifer walking with Rand. Her body was found underground after a 35-day search while combing the area around Willowbrook State School. I'm reading off Wikipedia, people. A particular spot caught the eye of retired New York City firefighter George Kramer. He returned with the police to the entire body was unearthed from the shallow grave and the remains were positively identified as those of Schweiger. Police searched the grounds for evidence and found one of Rand's makeshift campsites in proximity. So one of those underground things in proximity to the grave. Right.

They don't charge him with the homicide, but they charge him with her kidnapping. How does that work? I don't know. And he gets a bunch of years he does some time for that but in 81 he he was seen with this girl hollyann use yeah who was seven years old she went to the bodega to buy soap she didn't even have enough money for soap she was a poor little girl um and you're getting this in the 90s. Yeah. What happens is, while I'm a missing person, I run into a woman that I know, a girl I know my age, give or take. I hadn't

seen her in years. I tell her I'm working. I moved to Staten Island. She doesn't even know I'm a missing person. She just knows Staten Island. She's not from Staten Island. She said, oh, I used to have a good friend from Staten Island. Her daughter went missing. I said, who's, what's her name? And she said her daughter's name was Holly Ann Hughes. And she tells me the mother's name. I've kind of knew a little bit about it, but not, like

I didn't really know that much about it. I said, oh yeah, she's's like that's my friend now this woman uh had a really tough life my friend uh drugs and other stuff and holly and you's mother too that's how they knew each other she said yeah the little girl were missing they never found the guy who killed them this and that so when i took the case and i went through it and at this this point, I was living on Staten Island. I said, you know, this case is really interesting and I think there's stuff to be done on it. And there was one in particular guy that the detectives questioned a few times of what he saw. And basically, all he ever said he saw was

Holly and yous and Rand, but never together. The same night. Her in the store, him driving by. Her out of the store, but never together. The same night. Her in the store, him driving by. Her out of the store, him driving by. But never together. And I just felt like this guy saw more than he said. And he just didn't want to get involved. What made you think that?

You know, I don't know. It just kind of bugged me that they interviewed him so many times. And because I thought Rand was guilty. And I said, this guy had it. It kind of bugged me that they interviewed him so many times. Because I thought Ryan was guilty. And I said, this guy had it. He had to grab this girl. And this guy, by his own account, was nearby. And at this point, he's only been charged and put in jail or put in prison, found guilty of one kidnapping.

Yes. No murders. Nothing to do with Holly Ann Hughes. Okay. And he was due to get out. This was the mid-90s. Oh, shit. He was on his way out. So, I do some

preliminary work with some of the other witnesses and I finally catch this guy. Burns was his name. John Burns. And I... He don't want to get involved. He lives in St. Allen. He's an older guy. I think like a reformed drunk, alcoholic.

He don't want to really get involved. And I really go after him. I really go after him. Like, I'm going to lock you up for other stuff, for whatever you're doing, if you don't just be honest with us and tell me what really happened. And basically, after sitting him down and meeting him the riot act he says all right all right i'll

tell you i saw them together they she was in his car i saw him call her over to the car and i see her get in the car and i see them drive off together do you think have you ever thought like out of fear he told you what you wanted to hear well there was another witness that seen holly approach the car and not get in so it made all the sense in the world that he's seen hug get in the car and drive you know and he had said that he saw the car driving around so i was sure that this guy seen it and he finally said i didn't want to get involved i don't want to be known as a rat i'm like what are you this isn't a bullshit kid yeah it's not a bullshit drug deal you're not ratting on yeah ratting on a guy that killed other kids too and he's getting out of jail and he finally yeah i think uh his conscience got to him and he finally, yeah, I think his conscience got to him,

and he's like, yeah, you're right. So you broke open the case. Yeah. But that was one eyewitness. I assume you had to get other evidence to be able to. Yeah, well, once that happened, we called the DA, literally, like right there and then. We got a good statement.

I think we brought him down to videotape him, and then there was all the corroborating witnesses, but without him, it wasn't enough. With him, and that was enough. And then he was put on trial for that. Yeah, well, eventually I got transferred because, like I said, that was kind of like a stepping stone for me. And, excuse me, the boss didn't want me to leave at this point, the lieutenant.

He's like, you got to stay with this case. I'm like, it's almost done. You don't need me for this case anymore. It's really, it's done. And they ended up getting all these other cases, though, too, with it. Right? So, like, Alice Pereira. Yeah, he didn't get charged with any of those.

But those are cases that he was always suspected of doing. Oh, okay. So that's why it says alleged. Right. Yeah. But he did get charged with holly and found guilty. Yes. For killing her.

Yeah. Well, for kidnapping. They didn't charge him with the killing. Again? Yeah. Did he ever get out of jail? No, he's in. He won't get out.

He's going to die in jail. For kidnapping only? Yeah. He never got charged with a homicide? No. Yeah, it says Yeah. He never got charged with a homicide? No. Yeah, it says convicted. There it goes. Convicted kidnapper of two children, suspected serial killer.

Yeah. Currently serving 25 years to life in prison. And they thought he was, just to get back to that, they thought he was involved with that Berkowitz cult. Because they didn't think this guy had the mental capacity to commit these crimes by himself. How'd they make that? But I don't believe he he did i don't believe he was involved with any cult who claimed that he was involved um i don't know if you call them conspiracy people you know but they always say because there was satanic stuff on those grounds you know in those tunnels there's all kinds of shit on the wall. What the fuck was happening in the 80s, man?

I don't know, man. Jesus Christ. I don't know. It was all new to me. I mean, I wasn't familiar with any of this stuff. But you know what? Actually, what about the... Because before you were explaining it, we brought it up because I thought you were going to bring it in that direction.

But the whole case with Etonton where, as we now know, they told you lay off it and you had to leave it there. But that guy, Pedro Hernandez, did get arrested in 2012 and then was found guilty in 2017. 2017 and there's the reports on that are that this guy he was like 51 or something when he got arrested and claimed that he was a boday he worked at the bodega that was like right by where ethan was when he was 18 years old and the claims were like members of his church he lived in south jersey and members of his church said he had confessed to it right in church it was like this known thing and then they ended up taking him you him in on it and they put him in jail for 25 to life. But you don't buy that that guy did it.

I don't know. Honestly, I can't give you a definitive answer. I mean, by everyone's account, he's mentally incapacitated, really. Could he have devised that whole thing in his head and believed in himself and talked himself into thinking he did it?

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. They never found Etan's body. Was he sharp enough to actually get rid of it, hide the body good enough for it? You know, they were doing all kinds of searching for this kid. At age 18 in Manhattan. I don't know.

I mean, maybe. I'm not knocking the work the detectives did. I'm not saying they railroaded this guy because I'm sure that's not the case. The jury convicted him. But, you know, am I 100% sure he did it? I'm not. The satanic ritual thing is just like,

that's going to stick with me. I know I'm going to go down that rabbit hole and look at that. I don't understand I guess I just don't I mean I don't understand how you think like that at all regardless of where you're from but then the whole like when they talk about it in the context of

powerful society, right? Like really rich people, like the elites What the fuck are you doing? powerful society right like really rich people like the elites right the blood drinking the blood what the fuck are you doing do you what do you follow

have you read any of that stuff do you see any of it not really like I really I mean there were celebrities talking about drinking blood have you seen that recently actually I did

I know what one you're talking about with fucking Megan Fox and when you don't hear yeah when you don't hear about this stuff or you don't like if I didn't have a little bit of an intimate knowledge of it,

you'd think it's so crazy. But then when you hear, and it's not only her, there were other celebrities, like well-known celebrities that wear blood on their neck. Angelina Jolie and Billy Rob Thornton. And even all the ones that are on Ellen's show talking about how they do this stuff with blood to make themselves pretty and stuff.

Angie was, in fairness though she was like very emo when she was a teenager and then this was shortly after and she like had a sexual revolution or whatever she was very what she was very emo she was in the she was an emo kid when she was like 16 you know like the fucking chain mail and all that stuff so she was like that was i don't want to say that's like in someone's nature but that wasn't but did you ever hear the video of her no oh man i don't know how you could pull up there's a video of her talking and her friend apparently is recording her without her knowing and she's talking about a ritual and she's young she's a lot younger, maybe that'll get it. I got nothing. But like they talk... I don't know what happens.

Right? Like with these groups. Like do you have a draft day? Is there a day where they're like with the third pick and the fucking entertainers, elites draft we select?

You see, guys, the thing I think people don't get is, not you necessarily, just in general, you get drawn to the shit that you're into, man. Like, so he likes tiny little kids. He found out this, you know, somehow he gets contracted and he sees they're doing sex and drugs and crazy shit with kids maybe, and that's what draws him in.

And then maybe he draws other people in, or maybe it's the drug aspect. So to me, it's not, you know, I wish you could have found that. On your own one day, just check around and listen to it. She talks crazy stuff, man. It's on video, and the girl's friend is actually hiding the recorder.

I'm going to keep looking for that. video and she's the girl's friend is actually hiding the recorder i'm i'm gonna i'm gonna keep looking for that yeah but you know it it always comes back to this when we bring up this topic but like looking at this whole epstein thing right and all that the older i get the more i realize how many people are fucking pedophiles right i i can't believe i gotta say those words out loud but do i think that the people online who run you know the dark web conspiracy groups that claim that literally every single person has ever done anything like do i believe absolutely not that's insane right it's not we're not talking even a majority at all here but the fact that it's not two people did you ever did you ever check out the uh the pentagon the the the child porn on the pentagon servers come on bro

supposedly they found more child porn on the the Pentagon servers than they found on any servers. Could there be – Investigations going on? No, no, no. Could there be an intelligence reason for that in active measures that they are taking to blackmail people who do that and therefore it's on the servers? Yeah, I mean – Yeah, that makes a ton of sense to me. Yeah. blackmail people who do that and therefore it's on the servers yeah i mean yeah that makes a ton of sense to me yeah because like i i know i next time i have andy busamante the cia guy in i think we're going to talk about this some more we touched it last time but he is very blunt about the world and how it works and you know there's certain things that he can't talk about. He's not legally allowed to.

But from a broad level, he talks about pretty much everything. Yeah, my point. And he has said, even on like Reddit forums when he does the AMAs through the company and everything, you know, people have asked him directly. Like, you know, the people trying to get at the whole conspiracy theory about like child trafficking and stuff like that and he's been open by the free world and there's bad people out there and you need to get in with them before you take them down okay but like where is the line right like it it's a similar psychology on a way more serious scale than like as the defense attorneys we were talking about earlier how do you compartmentalize that like you have to be in that situation as a spy or something and be like wow there's a bunch of 12 year olds being walked in there right and you

can't go grab them right yeah i mean what what do you think of the whole epstein thing uh you know i i hate to give an opinion if I don't really have the I only have the facts that we read in the paper but I wouldn't be surprised if he was if he was murdered wouldn't surprise me yeah I think that's

that part definitely it's just a matter of like people want to know who but one thing is like when you talk to a lot of people about it, they seem to think he was the only one. And here's the other thing. You look at people in powerful places. It doesn't mean they're not doing wild shit that's bad somewhere. But we get down these rabbit holes of like, oh, no, they must be doing this.

And then suddenly like the confirmation bias happens over and over again and these group think society's online and then suddenly it's like oh well okay well they're not doing that so how do we how do we get there but i gotta think like as a as a cop who worked around these types of cases your meter your red alarm meter for people the threshold's a lot lower than me right yeah and i tell you i believe excuse me when we were doing this case we were um i mean i was going down to st mark's you know familiar not far from where i work now alphabet city even when i was in alphabet city doing drug cases they used to get their glassine envelopes from a place on St. Mark, the dealers. So we used to do surveillance of the place where they would get their glassine envelopes

to put their heroin in. And we'd see these fucking meetings. And we'd say, well, what's going on here? Like, what is that, an NA meeting or a NACO meeting or AA meeting or some shit. And people say, no, man, that's a whole different group of people you don't want to know about. So we weren't interested in that. We were interested in drugs. But when they would tell us that, what were they doing?

Were they pedophile guys looking for kids? Were they satanic people? Who knows? There's so much shit out there that we don't know. The worst part we do with all this is it's one thing when you have things at the elite level. Okay, there's class warfare all the time and legitimately so if people are doing wrong things, no doubt. But when it gets in the middle of like the political parties too right and then people got their teams with it they will stop at nothing to just claim the absolute worst of all these

people and it's like i think some people they're clearly sick and they do they find time for sick things like you know that guy jimmy saville have you seen that story that's a wild documentary on netflix by the way yeah like yeah there's people like that that exist right and look how accepted he was in society exactly exactly he was uh he was the man yeah so you he was over in britain for people that don't know he was he was an enormous media star over there and he turned out to be a massive massive pedophile and they found out officially right after he died but like you look at that so that stuff does exist but what i never want to fall in the trap of is literally everyone's doing it every time we see code word for stuff that's what it is i i think i think there's a middle ground with it and i think like it doesn't mean

that especially if you're in a position where you investigate things like that it doesn't mean that, especially if you're in a position where you investigate things like that, it doesn't mean that you should not look at that. You know what I mean? Tiny had told us about a guy in the organization, in the cult, who he had told us he had won the Nobel Prize for Science. And he was a doctor. And he gave us a nickname for him. I forgot what it was. Moloch, I think or something something stupid. But anyway And he said this guy went to Micronesia, which I didn't even know where the hell it was and he adopted like 50 kids boys

And we found them we found this guy His name was a god you check doctor. He was a doctor Yeah, geez his name was uh god you check doctor he was a doctor how do you spell it yeah geez that's a tough one yeah if you put nobel peace prize uh nobel prize for science gadget check g a d i guess gadget check gadrick no uh no uh put Mike on Asia and Nobel Prize for Science it'll come up

yeah wow that's a weird spelling let's pull it up Daniel Carlton Gajusek was an American physician died in 08 medical researcher and convicted sex offender who was the co-recipient of the Nobel Prize in Physiology of Medicine in 1976 for his work on an infectious agent which would later be identified as the cause of Kuru, the first known human prion disease.

I don't know what that is. It was really an obscure disease, but he was so intent on winning the prize, he found a cure for this kind of obscure disease. All right. So smart doctor, I guess. But 1996, was charged with child molestation and after being convicted, spent 12 months in prison. That's it? That's it. Before entering a self-imposed exile in Europe where he died a decade later.

His papers are held in the National Library of Medicine in Bethel. Oh, so he's still honored after his death. And he had adopted like 50 kids from Micronesia while he was here. I don't know if they legally adopted them, but he got them here legally, I'm sure. And one of those kids is the one who claimed, you know, made the accusations. And, of course, the accusations were proven true. But a lot of those kids is the one who claimed, you know, made the accusations. And, of course, the accusations were proven true. But a lot of those kids are missing. They couldn't find them.

They don't know what happened to them. Have you ever seen a South Park old episodes, Nambla? No. Sometimes I wonder about they figure this shit out. They had this running joke, and it was funny. Like, I don't know if I can even laugh at it anymore, though they shit out. There was a, they had this running joke and it was funny. Like, I don't know if I can even laugh at it anymore, though they are hilarious. That's a great show. But they had this running joke called NAMBLA, the North American Man-Boy Love Association.

And it was like, you know, it was a pedophile convention. And like, then you start to realize like, oh no. All right, maybe it's not called NAMBLA, but that's real. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Crazy. oh no all right maybe it's not called namba but that's real right yeah yeah absolutely crazy how do you deal like you've seen some dark shit you see you seem like you're in a good spot though like a good place like how do you how do you compartmentalize that um you know i don't know The bottom line is it's out there. We're aware of it, you know.

You just do the best you can. I mean, I think I've done enough to say I've done enough. Not that I'm, you know, if it ever came across my, you know, I would still take action. And actually, I would like to take action. I wish I could get involved again without the department and some other ways

you know but kind of hands are tied at this point in my life but can only do so much yeah you know what did you do by the way

besides after you left Missing Persons because you said you got transferred off that so what else was there after that then went to the secret service you went to secret service yes but not as

a not doing protection just investigations so i was assigned to the west african and the electronic crime task force okay all right let's go down this rabbit hole what was the so that's actually a great question i hear about this like matt cox i've had him in here he talks about the secret service was chasing him i've never asked this question okay i always think of the secret service as the guy standing there like this and hitting their ear just protecting people but there's a they also well they used to fall on the treasury although not if on the homeland security i believe so they make cases so they do cases they let me tell you they work out they're hard working guys man i always tell everybody i I mean, DEA guys too.

And Secrets are really hardworking guys. And they'll be... So they have certain... They had... I'm sure it's changed since they became on the homeland. But they had certain jurisdictions. And one of them, in fact, one of the cases, they were...

Child pornography fell under their jurisdiction somehow. And actually, my case was one of the first, maybe the first in New York. What I did was, when AOL was big, I went into a chat room as a little kid. Oh, God. And I got, I went to the housing project because I still had connections in the projects from managers, and they remembered me as running around down there. And I got a nice apartment. There's a project called Strauss Houses, which isn't a bad project. It's all alone.

It's in the 20s. It's one building, and it's not a bad building. So what I did was I used to chat guys up tell them how old i was a little kid 12 years old 11 whatever um and then they'd want to talk to me so i it was it was hard not to talk to them they wanted to verify who i was so i got a girl to talk to them a female agent and he thought the female agent was a little boy with We're little boy boys, even though it was a girl. Oh, on the phone. Yes. Oh.

Right. And then I'd have them come to the apartment that the housing guys gave me. You were Chris Hansen-ing everybody. Right. And we locked up so many people like that. Crazy. Ridiculous. And this was with the Secret Service.

We did that with the Secrets, and then we had other electronic crimes. Yeah, because like I said, counterfeiting was part of their jurisdiction because they were part of Treasury. How did you get assigned to them? We had two detectives assigned to the electronic crimes and two detectives assigned to the West African Task Force. What was the West? Going after the Nigerians.

For what? All kinds of fraudulent stuff, whatever they were doing. Bank frauds and remember they used to do those those letters that they needed to bring black you ever heard of the black money scams when they take the money and

I don't know if I should say his name, but a very famous actor, old actor, from like the 30s, his nephew got scammed twice by the Nigerians for big money, really big money. You want to know? Should I say the actor's name? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

James Cagney's. James Cagney. His nephew. He was the guy. He was. He would have kicked his nephew's ass. So what happened? It's called a black money transfer?

I don't remember if they did the black money on him. They scammed him. So what they do is somehow they approach these people. I don't know how they find them. It might have been random through the mail. This was before emails. Although emails, I think, were out there, but mostly it was through regular snail mail.

But him, they got twice. The first time, I think, was a black money scam. And what that is, they say they're being chased out of Nigeria, and they got all this money that they got to take out of Nigeria. Now, so the government doesn't realize it's money. They have to paint it black and they put it in a chest. And now they bring it and they show you the chest.

Now, you see the money, it's a little piece of cardboard painted black. And, you know, it looks like money, obviously, but it's not. It's paper. But when you touch it, shouldn't you know? Well, they say because the chemical hardens it up and all that shit, it doesn't feel the same.

But then they make you actually go and pick one out. They say, yeah, grab one. And you grab one. And then they put a chemical on it, and it turns into a $100 bill because they do like a sleight of hand thing. So now you've got to, oh, my God, that's a $100 bill. Yeah, they're all $100 bills.

Pick another one. Okay. So they approach you now. What do they want from you? So now you can hold on to this chest full of all these hundreds. Maybe it's a million dollars. But the chemical costs $50,000 to clean this money off. Give me the $50,000.

Hold this money. We can't do anything without this money. Hold the money and give me the $50,000. And then you make $60,000 or something like that well even more it's like a million dollars there oh right okay yeah so they they were doing this was just a that's just one of the common scam out of nigeria it happened to be so there were some people that were getting hit by that and the secret service was investigating yeah they do but how again did you get a sign there was just your captain once again like oh they had two they had two they had two detectives in the west african and in the electronic

crimes and they needed a boss over there who was from the nypd yeah was that because a lot of the targeted people were in new york yeah and my detectives were the detectives were new york guys so they needed they never had a boss there. But something I think went a little shitty and they needed, they wanted a PD guy there with the secrets and with the cops. You did a lot of interesting. Yeah. You had a very diverse background. Yeah.

Cases to go after. And that was, was that the last stop there? And then you left the force? Yeah, well, then my office was in the last stop there and then you left the force yeah well then nine my my office was in the nine i was in the world trade center wait what my office secret service office was in the world trade center were you there that time i was yeah i was in the building when it went down my old when it went down yeah my office was in seven but the obviously seven burnt to the ground that ain't the one that got hit but i was in the building the first building when it fell down you were inside it yeah i was actually i was i was a little late for work that day uh and i thought i was in the tunnel uh i want to

say the brooklyn battery tunnel and i. And I knew what the plane had hit. I think when I got out, the second plane already hit. And I was able to get behind a fire truck that was going through the tunnel. I put my siren on, and I followed the fire truck out. And as soon as I got out of the tunnel, I just pulled over. In fact, at the end of the day, I couldn't find my car. I didn't even know where I parked. And I actually called my—as I'm running to the building, I couldn't find my car. I didn't even know where I parked. And I actually called my wife.

As I'm running to the building, the cell phones were out. So I went in a bodega. I ID'd myself. I was like, I used the phone. And he said, yeah, go ahead. I called my wife because I figured she would be worried. I said, no, no, I wasn't in the building. I said, but I'm going in now.

But I'm fine. So I said, okay. Why were you going in? To help people? To help people. Yeah. And then when I went in to help people, and I actually went up one flight of steps,

but there was a lot of people coming down, and I was like fighting the traffic, screwing them up. So I said, I'm not going in. So I found another staircase, and I was going up, and this is how I started to go up the building shook, and the building came down. So I'm on the ground.

I don't even know where I was, to be honest. And sometime, you know, shortly after I guess it came down, somebody put a light up, and they said, if you can see the light go to the light you know walk towards the light and I was on my back basically and I got up and I felt around I felt the car I was turned over because the tires were on top instead of on the bottom and I see this guy I don't see him he grabs me and he takes me into another building I don't even know where I was to this day I don't know where I was but I knew the guy he was actually in the Austin Explosion team. When I was in a missing person, their office was right next to us. They were part of special investigation. And he recognized me, of course. Well, maybe he didn't. I was all covered in white shit, but I recognized

him. So he takes me into this building, and there's a guy throwing up, really throwing up next to me. Now, that normally doesn't bother me, but it bothered me then, and I threw up, violently threw up. And I actually think that's what saved my life because everything that I must have swallowed came up.

You know, because I was throwing up stuff. Black garbage came out of me and i i tell i honestly think that's what saved my life this guy throwing up next to me so you were you didn't even it sounds like you weren't really even sure where you were when it happened but you were like right there in the vicinity and so maybe you were by the edge of where i because it all came like it came down straight but then it all went everywhere right so you were just next edge of where I, cause it all came, like it came down straight, but then it all went everywhere. Right. So you were just next to, you remember a car and a guy. Well, I don't remember.

I felt the car. And well, when I went, went in and the FD had the floor plans on the floor of the, of the lobby and a bunch of fire chiefs were there around the floor plans and people weren't really walking in. Everybody was running out. But I had my shield out because they wouldn't even let me in the perimeter initially until I, you know, the cops had the perimeter.

Yeah, yeah, to identify. So I identified myself and they let me in. And then same thing with the building. And then I ran in. And then, like I said, I went up the wrong staircase and I went to a different staircase. And that's when the building went down. So I was like in the lobby or basically right outside the lobby.

That's fucking wild. Yeah, it was crazy. And then my wife, who I had called earlier, knew I was in the building. She thought you were dead. Yeah, everybody thought I was dead. How long before you were able to get in touch? A long time because I didn't even think to call them because I totally forgot i told this i remember i told her i'm fine not thinking i told her i'm fine but i'm going in the fucking building yeah so that was a bad day for them

that's just like whenever i talk to people who were who were there it's just a whole it's a whole nother thing but like you know you're able to talk about it now yeah that's something i look for you know when someone comes in here and talks about like okay they're able to talk about it because there's some people man you don't bring it up you know you may know they were there right it's like you don't you don't because the shit you see i i gotta think you know the guys who you see a lot who can who are from the law enforcement side it i mean part of it could be like whatever the background was in law enforcement you know maybe because they've had to see so much other shit right that there's a part of them that's hardened

to it but there's no way that even 20 years later 21 years later is like it's every bit as absurd now as it was then it's like what crazy you know like i always told the story there was a guy 15 years later i was i was at bayonne golf club right across the right across the the river playing with somebody over there and And the one guy, we were sitting on the back deck grabbing a bite, and the one guy just said it. And he's like, there used to be two buildings right there. There's not now. And I don't know.

You've seen this a million times, but even all those years later, you're just like, fuck, wow. Yeah. It's a wild thing. It is crazy, man. So, wow, you've it's a wild thing it is crazy man so wow you've really had you've had a life and and you've been out of the you've been out of the force now for how long i got out in uh 2003 was part of it september 11th is that what you're alluding to you were just like done after that um i don't know not really i don't i don't know just you know i felt like it was my time you know that's it i mean i had a hard time i don't know the pd is like any other

big organization political very political at some points you know so i think i um did what I had to do, and I was fine leaving. And what have you been doing since? Well, I wrote that book not too long after. And your book's called Alphaville? Yeah, Alphaville, 1988. And I own a Brazilian jiu-jitsu academy in Santa Ana. Wow. Yeah.

So did you practice a lot of that when you were active, I assume? Mm-hmm. Yeah. What got you into that like everybody else the ufc watching the early watching the hoist crazy and then i met henzo his cousin uh and we became friends and and you're like i could use this in the job too yeah and you know met good friend good guys out of it so it was cool that's awesome, it's such a great skill for people to have I had Amanda Levy in here she's like I forget if it's like 3 or 5

but she's one of the top ranked in the world she's the one that took down Gabby Garcia and you just watch that and you're like that's not supposed to happen the skill it takes is amazing but it would be great by the way like i always think about that because my my buddy's dad is a long time state trooper in new jersey and he

teaches like the jujitsu classes and stuff like that i'm like damn every cop should know this stuff right yeah absolutely man it's crazy you know how much could be avoided if they had like i'd pay i'd pay tax dollars for that, for cops to have that training? They don't get the training. It's really sad. They talk about defunding and all that stuff. You know, guys, you pull your gun, it don't mean shit. You pull your gun, I tell you, now I'm not listening.

Now what? Now you got to put it back. You can't shoot a guy if he's not you know actively killing someone or killing you and what if you could avoid that situation totally because you're trained that's right what was the one i want to say it was in like atlanta like a mcdonald's or something like that like two years ago where the guy just went the the perp just went at the cops and they went towards the ground and suddenly he got shot if they had had hand-to-hand training right no gun ever comes

out that was a joke that would have been like oh look at you that's cute right you know what i mean and it's like then you look at it like wow there you go well their lives are over you know and it doesn't have to there's got to be a way to fix that but i don't know and i i don't have all the answers there maybe we'll figure it out. Not me. Listen, man. Mike, this was great. Really, really enjoyed it. Had a hell of a ride.

Thank you for sharing it. Thank you. You got me going down the Satanic Colts rabbit hole after this. I'm going to have to check that out. But what was the other thing? You want me to look at the Angelina Jolie video? Yes. And the Geraldo Rivera Willowbrook thing.

Right. All right. Everybody go check that out you know the drill thank you sir thank you and people can get your book on Amazon and anywhere they get their books pretty much right yes cool all right on that note everyone else you know what it is give it a thought get back to me peace Thank you.