Julian Dorey Podcast - #222 - Ex-Cartel Kingpin on The Vatican, Morality & his Downfall | Luis Navia

Starting point is 00:00:00 What's up guys? If you're on Spotify right now, please follow the show so that you don't miss any future episodes and leave a 5-star review. Thank you. Okay, well speaking of crazy, what's this crocodiles thing, you said you got threatened to be fed to crocodiles. We were working Cancun. And when we were working Cancun, we would work with what we called El Yankee. El Yankee was the head of the federal police force for Cancun. And the Mexican guy I worked with, El Compadre, El Ocho, he was my contact. He worked with El Yankee of Cancun. So we had permission to work in Cancun. And that was fine. We did a bunch of trips in Cancun, the Cozumel, airdrops, a lot of airdrops. And then we did some boat trips.

Starting point is 00:01:07 Afterwards, Metro came in and took over La Plaza. Metro worked for Amado Carrillo. And Metro saved Amado Carrillo's life when they did an attempt on his life at the restaurant in Mexico City, that Valley High restaurant, whatever, helped Amado escape through a bathroom window or something. We'll come back to Amado.

Starting point is 00:01:29 I don't want to get you on a tangent explaining that, but we'll explain that later. So Metro, so my compadre, my Mexican contact tells me, we're not working in Cancun anymore. Metro's in control. That's only going to lead to problems. Sure enough, a Cuban friend of mine came to Cancun, was working with a guy from Guadalajara, and I told him, I suggest you do not

Starting point is 00:01:52 work here and continue working here. Sure enough, two weeks later, they found his head somewhere in Punta Sam and his legs down in Chetumal. They tortured the shit out of them and killed them. So that was even more reason than not to work in Cancun. So I get, I'm in Mexico City. I'm not working in Cancun. I'm in Mexico City and I get a call from one of the guys that worked with the Beltran Leyva brothers. And he says, I got permission to work in Cancun. Can we bring in a load through Belize? Then you can deliver it in Chetumal. He says, if you got permission to work in Cancun, I'll do it. I bring the load up to Belize.

Starting point is 00:02:32 The load is sitting in Belize. I go to Cancun because I said, I'm going to go talk to Metro to make sure that this motherfucker has permission. I go to Cancun and I can't find metro so i reach out to this lady that knows metro and i know metro i can't find her either so then i go to one of their hotels that they own and i'm fucking sitting there at the bar and in comes hill hill is metro's number one transporter he's the one that takes the merchandise from cancun takes it up to hou. He was wanted for murder

Starting point is 00:03:05 for killing some family on the border or something like that. Nice guy. Yeah, regular shit like that. So I start drinking and playing pool with Gil. We both get fucked up. And then I tell Gil,

Starting point is 00:03:21 by the way, I got 600 kilos. They're from Metro. They're in Belize. And, you know, I just want to let you know that they're there. And, you know, let's talk about this tomorrow. I said, fine. So we're playing pool. The last pool game, we say, hey, let's play for $250,000. I go, okay, let's do it.

Starting point is 00:03:40 I was almost winning. Thank God I didn't win. I lost. So at the end of the night, I owe Gil $250,000 from that pool game. He goes home. I go to my hotel. My wife, again, is seven months pregnant with Simon. So next morning, I wake up and I go play tennis.

Starting point is 00:03:58 And then since I had a cafe coba, I said, after my tennis game, I'll go to my office to cafe coba but i needed to call heal i needed to make some phone calls and try to find metro so i go to the payphone across the street and while i'm at the payphone across the street i feel a hit right here around my kidney the butt of a ak-47 somebody grabs me me by the hair and yanks my fucking hair out. Tries to put me in a Chevy. Luckily, it wasn't a Suburban. Luckily, it was a two-door Chevy Yukon, not a four-door Suburban.

Starting point is 00:04:40 Why is that? Because they had to put the seat up like this, and they had to sneak through that, you know, two-seater. It was not a four-door. It was a... So it was hard. If it was a four-door, they just opened the back door and threw me in. So when they were trying to put me in,

Starting point is 00:04:56 I would back-roll and flip and fucking kick like a goat, like a monkey. Finally, I said, okay, let's stop. Let's stop. Metro, listen, I've been looking for you. Hijo de puta colocha, estás aquí trabajando. You're working under the radar. You thought you could get away with it,

Starting point is 00:05:12 but I caught your fucking ass, and I'm going to kill you. And I go, what the fuck? And I go, okay, calmémonos, calmémonos. Mira, I was, you know, they had pulled hair. I was jumping. It took about 10 minutes of this bullshit next to the payphone. And I said, okay, let me ride in the car with you.

Starting point is 00:05:34 And eso sí, let me ride in the front seat because I'm fucking, I'm heated up from all this exhaustion. He says, next thing, okay, so you want to drive in the car. You want to sit in the front seat. You want the AC. Next, okay, so you want to drive in the car. You want to sit in the front seat. You want the AC. Next thing you know, you want to drive. No, no, no, no. I don't want to drive.

Starting point is 00:05:50 I want to talk to you. Okay, let's go. So he had his people and his bodyguards because he always hung out with two or three guys and another car behind him. So he's telling me, you're going to the crocodiles. To the crocodiles. De tiro pa los cogorilos. Yeah, there was a place called, it was an old amusement park that went bankrupt.

Starting point is 00:06:10 And it had some pink pyramids, blue, you know, these Mexican colors. And it was like brackish water next to the lagoon. And they kept the crocs. Yeah, they kept the crocs there. And it was known that people got thrown in the crocodiles. Because Cancun at night, in the daytime, it's tourist haven. At night, it was the number one arriving port for cocaine in Mexico. For a while, that was the number one point.

Starting point is 00:06:41 Even as they were building up the resort. During the daytime, it was resort town, vacation. At night, it was cocaine, melancholy coming in from Colombia. So we're driving towards this abandoned theme park, a water park. And all this time, I'm trying to get heel on the phone. I'm telling you, I'm telling you.

Starting point is 00:07:09 I was playing pool with heel, and I was trying to contact you. Okay, that's a bunch of fucking bullshit. Last thing I'm going to see are those shiny, bright, white tennis shoes you got on. That's the only thing that's going to be left of you. I'm taking you to, and we were on the way there. And I was trying to get Gila on the phone. And, you know, that's the only thing that was on my mind is, you know, my adrenaline. I got to get this guy on the phone.

Starting point is 00:07:34 Suddenly I said, let me use your phone. I'll call him from your phone. No. As a matter of fact, you know, I'll do you that courtesy because we're five minutes away. In five minutes, I'm going to do you this last courtesy. I'm going to call him from my phone. Metro calls him from his phone, and he picks up. And Metro goes,

Starting point is 00:07:52 The only thing that's going to be left are those white little sneakers that he's got on. I'm going to throw him in the fucking crocodile's. And he goes, what? No, no. Because he was still hungover. He goes, no. He owes me $250,000. No hagas eso. Ese cabrón me debe $250,000 de un huevo de villar. And then he looks at me and says, this cannot be true. And before that, he tells me, do you know how many stories I've heard? Do you know how many people have been sitting there?

Starting point is 00:08:33 Well, actually, no. You're the only son of a bitch that sits in the front seat when we're going to kill him. Most people are tied, hog tied, and duct taped in the back. But for some fucking reason, you're sitting here next to me. You know how many stories I've heard? That's just one more fucking bullshit story. Playing pool, $250,000. When he heard, he'd tell him, no, he owes me $250,000 for my pool game.

Starting point is 00:09:00 He looked at me, and he kind of said, brother, you are crazier than we are. I always heard you were nuts because he knew that I worked with Rasguño. I says, I always knew you were nuts. I heard about it. But now I am 100% sure you are fucking out of your fucking mind. And at that point, we kind of bonded it's the kind of people these fucking crazies they look at you in the eye and then you they you know suddenly i was like one of them the same way you're sitting in a restaurant he walks in and you look at him the wrong way he'll

Starting point is 00:09:39 put a bullet in your head and he doesn't give a flying fuck. At that point, he took me to the hotel like nothing had ever happened. We were best of buddies. But you got the situation figured out where you were bringing the coke into Metro? No, Metro was his nickname. No, no, no. I'm sorry. Into his territory? Oh, yeah.

Starting point is 00:09:59 Because he confirmed. No, I played pool with him last night. As a matter of fact, he owes me $250,000. And he does have 600 kilos in Belize, of which 50 are mine. Right. Because 50 kilos in Cancun at that time at $5,000 was $250,000. And I told him, I'll give you 50 kilos. So don't kill that motherfucker.

Starting point is 00:10:21 Guys, just to give you some context, we have an entire part one sit down with Luis that was released before this episode. You can see the thumbnail for that right here. And the link is in the description below for you to check out after you finish this one. And also, if you haven't already subscribed, please smash that subscribe button, hit that like button, and please go follow me on Instagram at Julian Dory podcast or on my personal page at Julian D. Dory. And at Julian D. Dory is also my ex handle as well. So make sure you got me over there. The links are in the description. So he dropped me off at the new hotel they had built, the Villa Magna. My wife was there. When

Starting point is 00:10:59 I walked in the room, my wife said, what the fuck happened? what kind of tennis game did you play i mean my hair was torn out i was my t-shirt everything was i was totally fucked up and i said no no i just had a rough day i'm gonna i'm gonna take a shower and i'm gonna take you to dinner sure enough we went to dinner and suddenly two bottles of champagne compliments of Metro. Oh, my God. From then on, you know, no problem. You know, there was backlogs in Cancun. Sometimes there were 20,000 kilos backlogged waiting to get out of Cancun because there was so much shit coming from Colombia.

Starting point is 00:11:35 When my shit got there, it got put in the front of the line. Sure enough, he always had his 50 kilos. I'm sure he did. So you are... What year is this when this one happened the story well my wife was seven months pregnant with simon so this was 1997 okay so we're coming that was the last thing i ever did in mexico that was the last thing I ever did in Mexico. You left Mexico after this? After that, I went to Panama.

Starting point is 00:12:10 Okay, all right. But before we get there, though, like, we've been talking all day, and so you've mentioned your family a lot, and that you were in the middle of this, and you have, I think you have three kids and one stepson. Is that right? Mm-hmm. Okay. So your wife that you're referring to is now your ex-wife, right?

Starting point is 00:12:28 Yes. Was that your second wife or she was your first? My first wife. She was your first? My first child is with a girlfriend I had. Got it. Okay. So you weren't married to her.

Starting point is 00:12:40 So at what point – I'm trying to go through the timeline that we've done in our head because we jumped a little bit, but you leave Colombia as your base and you go to Mexico in 94. After Rasguño, I had the problem with Rasguño. I went to Mexico and started working with another outfit. But at this point, you're still able to go back and forth to america you're not running no no no when did that stop i left america i left the united states in 1988 never to come never came back next time i came back i was handcuffed okay so that was earlier than i thought it was okay so you basically that was when you got hot there but they didn't know your face or anything. They didn't know, they knew there was this guy named Luis.

Starting point is 00:13:29 Like, I'm talking about the government, right? They didn't know who you were. Bob Harley knew who I was. He knew your face? Yeah, because they couldn't figure it out. They couldn't figure it out. And then somehow or the other, I got a DUI back in 1979 or something. bob harley's uh number one assistant or something bingo we got him we know who he is we know his id his mother lives on key biscayne through a dui so you should

Starting point is 00:13:58 not you shouldn't drinking is not a good thing yeah okay so you left in 1988 you had been married to your wife before you left right no i married i met my wife in 1989 in colombia so we got married in 91 so she's colombian yes all right so you meet her outside the country so it's not like it's an issue leaving america because she's not from there but she lived with you in colombia obviously then she lived with you in mexico and then after mexico you go to panama so she's just jumping country to country with you and like how often are you on the road and not even with her well while i lived in cancun we i was in cancun all the time because i was working in cancun i had cafe coba so you know i actually i had a beautiful life. We had a house on the beach.

Starting point is 00:14:45 We would go for walks on the beach. I would come home for lunch. Usually the, you know, see fresh seafood because the fishermen would always offer us fresh seafood. And we would go out to dinner. Then we went to Mexico City. While I was in Cancun was when I found out I was officially indicted. When was that and what do you mean? In 1995. Yeah. And I left Cancun. That's when I left to Mexico with my wife. And then that's

Starting point is 00:15:16 when we became Jewish because we kind of, I thought it'd be a good idea knowing that I was officially indicted. I thought I'd change my name a bit. So we lived in Mexico and we had a great apartment in Mexico City and had a normal life. I worked. I bought a latex rubber. You know, AIDS was still really popular back then. So I decided to make condoms. Oh.

Starting point is 00:15:43 Yeah. So you became a condom maker too? Yeah, condom maker and, you know, dental gloves and, you know, medical gloves. Is this what you would wash the money through these businesses, I assume? Not really because I was already out of the United States. And, you know, those businesses were just businesses. They produced money. But I had a Mexican partner, and, you know, I didn't really want to mix it up like that.

Starting point is 00:16:12 But is the connotation there, meaning that, like, in these countries that aren't the United States, they don't really track where your money is coming from? You know, I don't want my partner knowing that I put three, four, five million dollars through the business for no reason. You know, he's my partner in a legal business. Oh, so he didn't know about the other stuff. Yeah. I've always been involved in legal businesses. But they don't know. Like the partners have no idea you're an international cocaine trafficker.

Starting point is 00:16:38 No, no. No. Not at all. So what do you do with all the cash? Well, you put it in Panama. You put it in Guatemala. You what do you do with all the cash? Well, you put it in Panama. You put it in Guatemala. You know, you hide it. So, you know, I had safety deposit boxes in Guatemala and Aruba and Panama.

Starting point is 00:16:55 Some accounts here. Some accounts there. You know, remember, the big, big money is made by the owners of the merchandise. We're just transporters. So we make money. But not the owners of the merchandise. We're just transporters. So we make money. But not hundreds of millions. Yeah. We see hundreds of millions.

Starting point is 00:17:11 Right. But, you know, we keep a percentage of that. Still a good living. Yeah. Certainly a good living. It's a very good living. You can do whatever you want. With that money, you do whatever you want.

Starting point is 00:17:22 You buy whatever you want. You never have to ask the price of anything in life you want five rolexes you buy five rolexes you you want two lamborghinis you it's a lot of money yeah i mean these other guys are billionaires but you know a hundred million go through your hands and you keep 10 still that's a lot of money did you ever deal with noriega at all for anything no a lot of guys dealt with him during that era that's why i asked no decided no probably for the best yeah yeah he went down in a ball of flames there so yeah but all right so you're putting all your money all over the place. Your family's moving around with you.

Starting point is 00:18:06 There's points where you do have a good, normal life. Your wife knew what you did, though, right? Yes. Okay. But she was always after me to quit, to quit, to quit, to quit. And then we moved to Panama. And I told her, listen, come to Panama because, you know, I've quit the business. And now, you know, I'm in a healthy lifestyle, no drinking, none of this.

Starting point is 00:18:28 So she came to Panama for a year. What year? That was 98. Okay. And after the year, you know, I didn't quit the business. I kept working and I kept drinking. Not that I was a total disaster drinking, but, you know, a little more than should have, okay? The lifestyle when it lends itself.

Starting point is 00:18:55 So one Christmas, we went to Cabo San Lucas for Christmas and I went back to Panama because we didn't travel together entering the country. Why not? Because she had one name and I had another. Oh, you didn't give her any fake names or anything? No, no, no, no. Never.

Starting point is 00:19:14 And I called and said, when do you come? She says, I'm not. That's it. I'm leaving you. I'm not going to spend my whole life, just like you said, as a gypsy. Boy, I promised her the world i told her listen i've got a mansion picked out in marbella you know three four million dollar home down there no no no no and she left me and that was 98. yeah and then uh i was seeing this girl that worked at the davidoff store in panama so i

Starting point is 00:19:49 told her you want to come to europe we left to europe but i was very depressed yeah i was gonna say that sounds like because you said even to this day you're best friends with your ex right yes yes so it's a lifelong relationship in a way that had to be a very low moment i was it's the first time i ever saw a psychiatrist in my life so you see a panamanian psychiatrist yeah he gave me paxil and xanax at the same time and i told him i i drink liquor says oh it, oh, it's okay. You can take it all. Take the liquor, the cocaine, the Xanax, the Paxil. I mean, what a piece of cake that was.

Starting point is 00:20:33 And then I grabbed the girl, very good-looking girl. Matter of fact, looked a lot like my wife. That's usually how it goes. Isn't that funny? Isn't that funny? Isn't that funny? They looked 10 years different, but my wife is a very beautiful lady, and she looks younger. And so I left to Europe,

Starting point is 00:20:56 and that's when I started doing the freighters to Europe. Did you have – had you been over to europe a bunch before that no so you really hadn't done any business in europe and you just decided well i'm gonna fly over there we'll get like well no i already had some contacts some greek contacts that were shipping people and i had already set that up from Panama. I set that whole European transport business from Panama. How did you have those contacts already? Well, I had a friend of mine that was doing a lot of business to Europe and he had his main office in Panama and he would ship.

Starting point is 00:21:42 The ships would leave Panama, load rice in Suriname, and cross the Atlantic. That was a very hot situation, and he got in trouble with Interpol. And then what I decided to do to avoid this hot zone in the Caribbean, what I did was I would have the ships in Greece. They would come down to Brazil, pick up whatever. A lot of times it was sugar, whatever, and then go up, hit Venezuela, because Venezuela is already out of this Caribbean hot zone.

Starting point is 00:22:25 The eastern part of Venezuela, next to Guyana, where the Orinoco River Delta is, and it flows out to the Atlantic. We used to go into Puerto Ordaz, pick up steel, aluminum, whatever. And then pick up that merchandise and leave. And when you leave Puerto Ordaz, see? Yeah, we have the map up here on the screen. When you leave Puerto Ordaz and you hit the Orinoco River Delta, you're already out in the Atlantic.

Starting point is 00:23:00 You're way, you're not in the Caribbean at all. Oh, I see what you're saying. You see Trinidad and you go towards Panama. You're way, you're not in the Caribbean at all. Oh, I see what you're saying. You see Trinidad and you go towards Panama. Yeah, zoom out. Okay, see, this guy would have his ships in Panama, pick up rice in Suriname, and then head out. That's a hot zone.

Starting point is 00:23:22 That whole area is a hot zone. I did it backwards. I would come from Europe, go down south to Brazil, go up. I would never come into the Caribbean. And see, when my ships left from that red dot, when they left there at 5 o'clock, by 7 o'clock, they were already out way beyond the reach of any helicopters or service. There's nobody out there. There's Japanese fishing boats out there.

Starting point is 00:23:46 There's nobody. And this is pre-Hugo Chavez and everything, right? Hugo Chavez had just come in. Oh, he had just started. 1998, mid, yeah. And that wasn't scary to operate out of his country? No. It was a blessing. Why was it a blessing?

Starting point is 00:24:03 The DEA was on its way out. Oh, because he wasn't... The DEA was still there because Eric Kolbinski was there. But after that, the DEA got kicked out. But Venezuela was still a very good place to work from. And we had all the merchandise stashed in the Orinoco River Delta. Wait, how would you stash it in the, what would you stash it in? Imagine these big containers, they look like telephone booths,

Starting point is 00:24:32 and you stash the merchandise in there and you hide that underwater, they're watertight. Underwater? Yeah, in the delta, in swampland type, you know, it's that whole Orinoco River Delta. You thought of this? That was your idea? No.

Starting point is 00:24:48 This was thought out by somebody that worked for the organization, and they came up with the idea of using those telephone booths. For your organization or the organizations you were moving for? Well, the cartel that I was working for. I was in charge of the ships from Greece. But they had a fishing, well, they called it a fishing camp. It wasn't a fishing camp, but they had a camp there where they stashed all the merchandise.

Starting point is 00:25:14 Then we would come in and load up whatever, steel, in Puerto Ordaz, and when we were leaving, they would hit us on the way out. We were three miles off the coast. They would load up the ship with 4,000, 5,000, 6,000 kilos at a time, and then we would keep going. But by that time, we were way gone. So it was like working the route in reverse. Instead of starting in Panama and doing that whole hot area area because that whole area is hot as a pistol.

Starting point is 00:25:49 How did you get all your intelligence for this kind of stuff? Like how did you know exactly where Interpol was going to be? What was it going to be? I'm sorry. Like where Interpol was going to be? No. Like where things were hot? Like what were your sources?

Starting point is 00:26:06 It's that for years, you know, I had already been working at this for 25 years. I knew that the Caribbean was a hot area. I knew my friend just got busted by Interpol. I knew he got hot. Just experience. So I figured, why deal with that? Why be based in Panama, the hottest fucking place on earth, when I could come from Egypt, from Greece? I could load up and go to Africa, pick up cassava,

Starting point is 00:26:36 leave metals that I took from the Black Sea, go to Africa, cross Africa, go down to Brazil. I'm way out of everybody's scope of vision. Then go up to Venezuela, go into Puerto Ordaz, go out, get loaded from fishing camp where the merchandise was at. And I'm out in the middle of the Atlantic. And that was being done with freighters. And how big are these freighters like the normal ones we see it port of elizabeth here yeah freighters with you know yeah three you know math 33 000 tons whatever and then you would you would find certain cargo containers that you would stash everything in no the freighter had a stash in it. We built a special stash inside the freighter.

Starting point is 00:27:26 Now, how does that work? Do you send a construction crew in the middle of the night? A welder, a welder, and he does it. And you pay off the people at the port, obviously? Sagapo'o, Aladimu, Malacca, let's go? Well, it's done in, it's a huge ship. A lot goes on in the ship. Yeah, but I mean, there's a welder in there, a fucking welder.

Starting point is 00:27:44 Yeah, but they do that work all the time. ship a lot a lot goes on in the ship yeah but i mean there's a welder in there fucking yeah but they do that work all the time there's you know it's not like out you know you're in a hidden space i know but it's you don't think someone's walking by going hey do you hey georgio why are you welding fucking a hundred yards worth of wall what he does it in a place that nobody sees him it how much coke are you putting on those ships 5 000 kilos i mean that's a lot of kilos not really you know how big those ships are they're huge but like 5 000 kilos it probably fit in this room that's what i'm saying this is a bit there's a pretty big room like no one's gonna walk by that and see the guy building it insider freighter have you ever been inside a freighter you get lost lost. I don't think I've been inside one, no.

Starting point is 00:28:25 They're huge. They're enormous, yeah. Enormous. So it's pretty easy. Very. Okay. I'll take it where I mean, I've seen them. I haven't been in them.

Starting point is 00:28:35 Yeah. I'm pretty sure I haven't been in them. You know, I mean, there's so much shit going on in any given port, and you're inside a ship. I mean, there's a whole life going on inside that ship so how did you say you said you set this up from panama before you even went over there because you had contacts i had contacts in greece and i was living in panama so i set up the whole deal of you know the greeks for example i met the greeks in cancun, you brought them over. Yeah, and I met them in Cancun, and we started working this whole deal out. And what was their background? Like the guys who, yeah, but was it the guys who ran the board?

Starting point is 00:29:12 One of the guys, one of my contacts was, it's in the book, Nick Fischkatori. He's half Sicilian, half Greek, old mobster from New York, from Sicily. Wait, he's half Sicilian, half Greek. What want a combo and he lived in New York for many years old old-style mobster older he was older or already he was older when I and he introduced me to you know the my shipping friends he introduced me to the shipping people in Greece. Is this the guy you mentioned something at dinner last night? A dude who had like connects to the Vatican or something? Is that the guy?

Starting point is 00:29:54 Exactly. He didn't have a connection to the Vatican. The guy he introduced me to that had the shipping companies and the shipping background and came from a very big shipping family in Greece, had a partner that was connected to the Vatican and his girlfriend was connected to the mafia in Calabria. And he traveled with a Vatican passport. Which is very hard to get. had a vatican passport diplomatic vatican passport that other part they had about it the vatican and his group they all had a

Starting point is 00:30:33 a marble concession in in venezuela they were pulling out marble from venezuela so it all kind of inter being I mean it was inter wiggled got it so that other thing you talked about at the end by the way people out there so I'm wearing headphones today but Louise is not too so sometimes there's a little bit of over talk I'm sorry about that usually it's not like that but that other part you were talking about at dinner where the guy took you like to his place in milan and opened some stuff like are you allowed to talk about that that's fine i mean uh we i was living in milan and we we were drinking one night, and we were in his apartment, and he opened up a closet under key and inside a safe, and he came out with this big box, and it had like an outfit,

Starting point is 00:31:41 like red and black with a, actually, it was cone shaped thing like a ku klux klan thing but you know and it had holes and a mask and he was part of a masonic type order with the vatican a secret society i don't know you know but to him, it was very, very secretive. And he was part of a secret order of the Vatican. And like I said, this guy, he always had a couple of bodyguards. Right. Vatican associated. The Vatican has a bank.

Starting point is 00:32:21 We all know it. You know, the Vatican has business all around the world and very connected. This guy was very connected. And it was weird because, you know, he told us that a lot of his business contacts and his connections and the way that he can do business and have so many open doors was because of this secret society, just like we have the Yale Society of Skull and Bones. Okay, that's top-notch American, and they've run this country for years. They've had presidents in power. They had two guys running against, Kerry and Bush at the same time. Bush.

Starting point is 00:33:07 Bush. Bush. So many of them. But I remember William F. Buckley was skull and bones. That's right. So what's behind that? Who knows? I mean, we've read about it.

Starting point is 00:33:25 This is a secret society. He didn't say the name, but it was a secret society. And, you know, obviously he had very good connections. And he had very good connections. And he was, you know, he was no wimp. The real tough one there was his girlfriend the calabrian girl she was you could tell you didn't want to around with her and she was connected to the indreta yeah like directly that was the hookup what was the name when johnny rusa was in here he's like

Starting point is 00:33:59 they meet down in the catacombs. What was the name of that secret organization? Yeah. Civilian Samaritan. Ah, the Solidarity. Solidarity. Yeah, there's the Solidarity group down there. Does the Vatican run the world? Figure this out.

Starting point is 00:34:20 Most people don't digest this. They're the largest single stockholder in the world. They own the most property in the world that pays in no taxes. Every school, every Catholic church figure out, I mean, there's an organization a lot deeper than them called the Solidarity. The Solid, I'm not familiar with that. Nobody is. The Solidarity.

Starting point is 00:34:42 It's about 2,000-year-old club. It's a club. It's a club. It's a club. And it's in the catacombs of the Vatican. You know, the Vatican's a city when it's in itself. I know. I used to live right next to it. Okay.

Starting point is 00:34:56 Then you know. I mean, I don't know like that. Most people don't know what I'm telling you. So they meet down there, you're saying? No, that's where they are. They only meet there, period. They're very high-level profile people throughout the

Starting point is 00:35:12 world. You get invited to be in it. But they, like you said, who's running the world? I think they are. I was serious. Kill me when I said that. He said that there's... Those guys are very tight.

Starting point is 00:35:26 Yeah. That's some serious shit right there. He was intimating that that's like who runs things. Right now they run probably 80% of the cocaine coming into Europe. Wait, I'm talking about the guys in the Vatican, not the Andretta. The guys in the Vatican, they're their own showta the guys in the vatican they're they're their own show yeah there are no angels no they're not but the this is interesting though because we started this talking about you getting this thing set up in greece and you hadn't operated

Starting point is 00:35:58 really in europe before so you're operating now to be able to move cocaine internationally between south america and europe so that you can move product for clients in south america but that operating now to be able to move cocaine internationally between South America and Europe so that you can move product for clients in South America. But that also means you're going to open up some new networks in Europe when you do this. And one of those networks is with the Calabria Mafia, the Andretta. I know they're involved, but our connection in Europe was with the people out of Galicia. Our boats would get offloaded by the Galician folks that work in Galicia. Yeah, can we pull that up? And the fishing boats.

Starting point is 00:36:35 So our ships would be offloaded off the coast of Galicia, and they would go into Antwerp or Rotterdam empty. The merchandise would be taken off the coast of Galicia and they would go into Antwerp or Rotterdam empty. The merchandise would be taken off off the coast of Galicia. Can we just get the map of it? Yeah, Galicia is perfect. I just want to see it relative to Europe. You see it's at northwestern coast of Spain? Yes. The fishing boats would come out of Galicia,

Starting point is 00:37:07 offload our boat, so then our boat would continue and enter Antwerp or Rotterdam empty. Oh, wait, so they're staying up there. They're not coming back through the Strait of Gibraltar into Mediterranean? No, no. You'd stay away.

Starting point is 00:37:24 They get offloaded in Galicia. away. They get offloaded in Galicia. The merchandise would get offloaded in Galicia in Altamar, in high seas. Yeah. By Galician shipping vessels. Which would be met by smaller vessels to pick it up and take it inland. Yeah. And then we, our freighter, would continue to the port of Rotterdam or Antwerp, which is up there in Belgium and Holland. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:37:50 And they would arrive empty. But where's Greece then? This is skipping Greece. No, the boats, the office, the shipping office was in Piraeus, Greece. Which is south of Athens. Yeah, which is just an office. Oh, no, you were just setting up shop in a nice spot. Yeah. And the boat had a

Starting point is 00:38:09 some boats had Panamanian flags some had flags of Malta. Registered in Malta, registered in Panama. Why Malta? It's an offshore place and a lot of boats are registered ships are registered in Malta? It's an offshore place, and a lot of boats are registered, ships are registered in Malta.

Starting point is 00:38:28 God, I feel like these are the places that have the secrets of the universe. Like all the rich people are like, oh, yeah, we go there. Malta's right off the coast of Africa. It's south of Sicily. Yeah. Did you deal with the Sicilians? I mean, you mentioned the Greek-Sicilian guy, but did you deal with them? No.

Starting point is 00:38:52 No. Interesting. you deal with the sicilians i mean you mentioned the greek sicilian guy but did you deal with them no no i mean i the american mob guys but right right that's different that's different look at malta yeah it's right off south of sicily right off the coast of africa malta there you go sicily is one of the most beautiful places on planet Earth. Really? I've never been there. You've never been? No. Even when you were over there? Nope.

Starting point is 00:39:10 I spent a lot of time there. It's incredible. I spent time, and if we stay on that map, I spent time between Catania and Messina for five, six days, and then I went back for two weeks and spent time from Palermo, Cefalu, down through the middle of the country, down torigento back up back up north east of chefalu all those areas it's absolutely gorgeous it's like it's crazy because it's so poor and so in in some ways like the people don't have a ton of opportunity because the mafia still runs the place, which is nuts.

Starting point is 00:39:45 Like there was one night my girlfriend at the time and I got lost at like 1.30 in the morning on the outskirts of Catania. We're like, fuck, and ran into this dude. At the time, I could speak Italian pretty decently. I don't remember how to now, but this guy was like, oh, yeah, yeah, I help. So we start walking through the street with him and he gets us back to where we got to go. And at one point I said, you know, like, are you from here originally? Like that kind of thing. And he said, yes, yes, I love it here.

Starting point is 00:40:17 I love it, but I can't wait to leave. I was like, what? You love it, but you can't wait to leave? And he goes, yeah, I can't wait to leave. I'm like, why do you want to leave? And it was like right out of a movie scene. Like we're on this dimly lit, cobblestone, like almost back alley type spot. And he turns to me and then turns to his left, looks around with his – with a pointer finger and points to the wall.

Starting point is 00:40:42 And there's a giant graffiti that says mafia right there and he goes that's why and i was like oh okay fair enough but so you never dealt with them though no i mean nick was half sicilian half greek but that's about it and i lived in milan and never got a chance to go down to sicily but i mean i i heard they were giving away you know you could buy a home for a dollar and fix it up oh my god a train ticket in sicily is like fucking 50 cents at least when i was there yeah like it's it's very very cheap italian government had a program where you can buy a home very, very cheap. Yeah. And, you know, you fix it up and it's beautiful. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:41:28 I mean, the water, that I've heard. So you were living, what was the town in Greece again called? Bouliagmeni. But then you were also, when were you living in Milan, 99? I only lived in Milan for three months in 99. Okay. And from Milan was that when I traveled, we were buying two more ships,

Starting point is 00:41:49 and I had to travel to Venezuela because with the blueprints of the ships to see exactly where we were going to put that stash, where they were going to build that stash. And that is something that, you know, they wanted me to take it personally because, you know, you just don't tell anybody that. And they wanted to see exactly the layout of the ship to make sure

Starting point is 00:42:11 it was suitable for what we needed. It was two new ships we were buying. And I didn't want to go back. I didn't want to go back to Venezuela because I figured I already crossed the Atlantic. I'm okay with my paperwork and everything in Europe. Going back to Venezuela, I had a bad feeling. Sure enough, by the time I got back, the organization had already been infiltrated, and they were waiting for me. The thing is that they were waiting for a Greek guy. The infiltrator, the guy that infiltrated the organization, didn't know me.

Starting point is 00:42:44 All he heard was el griego, el griego, el griego. Because you were living in Greece. Because I was living in Greece. And they were waiting for a Greek guy, but I showed up with a Mexican passport. Okay. So why again did you have to live for three months in Milan? That's what I lost in there a little bit because I got the Venezuela connection. It got a little hot in Greece.

Starting point is 00:43:03 And Elias said, you know, the best thing is let's get out of Greece for a little while and let's go live in Milan. Okay. And then that's 99. You went from Milan to Venezuela directly? And now were you, like, living in Venezuela then officially? I was mostly, most of the time in puerto verdas and then in caracas and then i got arrested in august of 2000 okay did you your girl your girlfriend at the time is this a new one now not the panamanian or is it no the pan no the panamanian girl the day they arrested me

Starting point is 00:43:42 i never saw her again right but so she was still with you yes okay so same girlfriend and in milan and yeah okay so she comes with you to venezuela and this is where operation journey gets you this is what we've been building up to so this is 25 years into your career you are maybe the most respected logistics guy in the international cocaine business in existence. And you're operating out of Venezuela. Who were you, these new freighters you were looking at that you just mentioned a few minutes ago, who again were you working with on this deal? Like what cartel? Well, it's in the book and its operation journey is in Google, but it's the Mayesos cartel.

Starting point is 00:44:25 By the way, Pure Narco is the name of the book. Great book. I read about 100 pages yesterday. It's absolutely phenomenal. So everyone check that out. The link will be in the description for you to buy it in our Amazon store. Highly recommend. But anyway, it was –

Starting point is 00:44:39 At that time, it was the most powerful, largest cartel working in Europe, the Mayesos cartel. Where were they out of? Colombia. And at that point, they were working out of Barranquilla, but they're originally from Cali, from the Cali area. But you said they were the biggest one in Europe? They were the biggest Colombian cartel sending merchandise to Europe. I mean, they had that European market big time.

Starting point is 00:45:15 Now, where is, at this point, the Oroela brothers? Have they been arrested? Is that the Cali cartel? Have they been taken down? They were arrested, I think, in 2003. Okay. They took us down in 2000 they were i think already arrested in columbia but they got taken to the u.s i don't know when they got taken to the u.s 2002 2003 yeah they were they were extradited in 2006 to the United States and pleaded guilty in Miami.

Starting point is 00:45:46 But between June and July 1995, the remaining six of the seven heads of the cartel were arrested. So they were taken down at least. They were taken down, that's for sure. Right after Pablo. Did you work with them at all after Pablo? No. No. No. The only Cali guy I worked with was El Mono Endo and Ivan Urdinola, but he was Northern Valley. Although very, very hooked up with Cali also, but he was Northern Valley.

Starting point is 00:46:20 Because the cartel that took over after they took down Pablo and the Cali cartel was Northern Valley. They were the main cartel in Colombia. And I worked with them for five years or so. Got it. So now fast forward to 2000, this operation journey, which you don't know is going on. It's a giant sting this was like multiple countries multiple agencies right trying to take down this deal yeah it was 14 countries operation journey um i mean when they took us down it was almost 25,000 kilos that was taken down over there a so operation journey was 14 countries joint

Starting point is 00:47:09 international task force that why that's why you know you had customs columbia venezuela eric obinsky with dea uh the brits the french wow Everybody was in there. Because we were operating, for example, at the same time that they arrested me in Venezuela, they arrested my partners in Paris. Oh, they were. And they arrested the Ku Klux Klan outfit, the Milan guy with the pointed hat in Milan. Oh, shit. So this was like. Yeah, everybody got hit.

Starting point is 00:47:46 Wow. We all got hit at the same time. Now, how did it go down? Like you, so. You had a warning shot, right? Yeah. Where some cab driver or something gave you an alert? Our ship came into Puerto Ordaz.

Starting point is 00:48:01 When that ship comes into Puerto Ordaz, there was a Russian crew on board because it was doing a legal, you know, it was just finishing a legal route. It came from the Mediterranean, went to Africa, went down to Brazil. Then they, when they arrived in Puerto Ordaz, we took the Russian crew off. We put them up in the hotel in the captain. We put them up in the hotel in Caracas. And then the bad crew was going to be put on. The guys that we contracted out of Bangladesh, out of Philippines.

Starting point is 00:48:37 We had a guy that all he did was contract bad crews. Okay. So I go to the hotel, the hotel the tamanaco hotel a few times to meet with the greek one of my greek partners was there because he had to pay the russian captain 30 40 000 dollars so i go meet my greek partner a couple times at the Tamanaco. And then one of those nights that I was leaving the Tamanaco, a taxi driver tells me, hey, didn't I pick you up here last night? I said, yeah, as a matter of fact, you did. He says, well, let me tell you something. After I picked you up, I was held by Guardia Nacional for almost three hours, and they were asking me about you.

Starting point is 00:49:27 Supposedly you are a, you're involved in the drug business, narcotics. Eres un narcotraficante. And I had my Mexican accent. No, pues como se te ocurre, me vas a dar un ataque al corazón,

Starting point is 00:49:42 cabrón, que como que narcotraficante. Soy un hombre de negocios aquí en Venezuela. Soy de México. You know, the whole. But I said, you know what? In Spanish, this news you're giving me is really affecting me. I need some fresh air.

Starting point is 00:50:01 So I gave him a tip, and I got out of the cab. At that point, I walked around a little bit. I called for another cab. I called my girlfriend who was at the hotel, told her to set up a party that we have some friends coming because I knew we were being watched at that point. So I wanted to look like if we were expecting some people over that night maybe they thought that they'd be mexicans so i told my wife my girlfriend order a mexican mariachi because they'll probably think the fucking mexican cartel's coming for dinner so she was hesitant and yet you know and i said, I know what I'm telling you. Do this.

Starting point is 00:50:45 Just take your jewelry and meet me and I'll pick you up in a taxi. So I picked her up and then I called Yvonne, who was at another hotel, said, hey, motherfucker, we're fucked. Listen, listen to this. Bam, bam, bam. He didn't want to believe me either. But bottom line is, we all got in the cab and we took off to the airport in Caracas, which is Maiketia, which is about an hour and a half away. From there, the next morning, we took off to Maracaibo because I knew they were after us. So we stayed two or three days in Maracaibo because I had lost my passport. I think they had stolen it.

Starting point is 00:51:34 DEA, somebody had taken my passport. Very strange for me. Like broken into your place? Yeah, very strange for me not to have a passport. So I had to call the lady that had all my passports in Guatemala for her to travel to Venezuela with my new Mexican passport so I can cross the border into Colombia. During those days that we were in Maracaibo,

Starting point is 00:51:57 they must have triangulated phone calls and this shit and that shit. So they mobilized from Caracas and they flew in, in some helicopters with some national guards and they located us in Maracaibo. And then that's when, you know, I was, you know, ready to take a taxi in three hours to cross the border to Maicao, Colombia, and I was in a barbershop, you know, shaving my beard so I would look differently, and that's when they came in and said, You're not under arrest, but you're under suspicion of narco-trafficking,

Starting point is 00:52:44 and you need to come with us and that's when they picked me up at the barber shop and that's when they took me into the police station they said where's the merchandise if you don't tell us where the merchant decided we're going to cut you up with a bisturi you know the surgeon's knife yeah they use uh these are the venezuelans right yeah so you're so they were playing good cop, bad cop. The Colombian cop was a good cop, and the Venezuelan was, if you don't tell us where the money is, where the merchandise is, we're going to cut you up. They even sat me and strapped me onto a steel chair

Starting point is 00:53:14 that was nailed down to a concrete slab inside a room that was painted white, but it was smeared with blood. And they kept saying, we're going to cut you and they they kept saying we're gonna cut you up motherfucker we're gonna cut you up and for some reason i knew it wasn't true but you had been scared before this this was one of the two moments you said where you did have fear like if i get caught by the venezuelans they're gonna fucking torture me yeah that was no this time there's too too many people you know I knew I was I knew I was shit out of luck but I still thought we could

Starting point is 00:53:50 buy our way out I kept saying to the Colombian guy hey we got a million dollars we can give you we got two million I mean all it takes is a few days we can get this money together and let us go.

Starting point is 00:54:05 And that's when I was sitting in the Suburban and he tells me, you know, it's a little too late. Then I was sitting in the backseat of a Suburban in front of the police station in Maracaibo. And suddenly I look to my right and out of the windshield, I see these pair of skinny long legs and shorts. And I look a little better, and I see, well, he's a really tall guy wearing a Hawaiian shirt. That's when I said, we're fucked. There's no $2 million. There's no $1 million.

Starting point is 00:54:38 There's no paying nobody off. The gringos are here. And that's when Eric Kolbinski walked in and sat right next to me in the back of the Suburban with his shorts and his Hawaiian shirt and his flip-flops, says, Hi, I'm Eric Kolbinski with DEA. It's nice to meet you.

Starting point is 00:54:57 You are Mr. Luis Navia. You are not a Mexican. And I go, ¿Cómo eso es un error? Yo soy mexicano. Do you want to stay here in a Venezuelan jail? Pues, eso es una equivocación. Yo soy mexicano.

Starting point is 00:55:12 Soy un empresario. You're still in game mode. You're still, like, good. And he said, you know what? We really don't have that much time to stay here and talk about if you're Venezuelan, Mexican, Cuban, Hawaiian, or whatever the hell you want to be. But I'm going to clarify this real quick. He got on the phone and he called Bob Harley in Key West. And he goes, Mr. Navia, we know exactly who you are.

Starting point is 00:55:41 Your mother lives at 315 Cypress Drive, Key Biscayne, Florida. We've been there. We know you went to Georgetown University. We da, da, da. Holy shit. How about that? How informative. I was unfamiliar with your game.

Starting point is 00:55:57 I was unaware. So I would suggest you cooperate and you peacefully go along with a gentleman that's next to you that, by the way, works for the DEA. And you'll be coming to Florida soon. What was your feeling when that happened? Was there fear? Was there relief? Was there a little bit of both? What was the vibe?

Starting point is 00:56:23 It wasn't as bad as i thought it would be if you would have told me listen what how do you think you'd feel that if you ever got arrested i'd say oh fuck the world's gonna end i'd fucking out nothing i was just there and i was sitting there and i was thinking wow i'm in some deep shit then they took us up to a military outpost they have outside of caracas up in the hills and then i started seeing these military convoy trucks coming in with a bunch of fucking cocaine and it's all our duffel bags and more and more and more and then i said you know that's it we're going you know they're taking us to the u.s so do you think you were going to spend the rest of your life in prison yeah and you definitely came to peace for that with that i i was i didn't i didn't know, I mean, I didn't know what the hell was going to happen,

Starting point is 00:57:27 but somehow or the other, there must have been somewhere in my brain that told me that things were going to get resolved. Because if not, I think I would have just had a nervous breakdown. And I didn't. So when they told me we were going to the U.S., I said, well, fuck, I can't go looking like this. I haven't taken a shower in two days, this and that. I need some new clothes. I'm not going to show up in the U.S. looking like a bum.

Starting point is 00:57:57 So I had money in my pocket. So I had one of the guards, one of the military, go out and get me some nice khakis, a white polo shirt. And I had my top siders. I said, if I'm going back to the U.S., I don't want to look like a bum. I told Ivan, look at you, man. You're in shorts, a fucking hat. Take a shower. You're going to look like.

Starting point is 00:58:19 We're going to the U.S., motherfucker. We're not going to Kenya. And he was freaking out out he was really freaking out and then i said well this is the last night we're gonna spend so you know i i gave the captain 200 dollars and i i said let me sleep in your room that has an air conditioner because that's the last time i'm gonna be with my girlfriend yeah the captain let him do it? Yeah, the Venezuelan captain. And I slept in his bedroom there at the military outpost that had an air conditioner because that's the last time I was going to see my girlfriend.

Starting point is 00:58:55 Oh, she came by? She was with me. She was arrested with me. Oh, she was arrested with you. Okay. Then when Eric came in with the u.s with not the u.s marshals met us at the airport you know um they put me in in the suburban and they took me away and they took shirley to the airport and they sent her to panama they did not have anything against her and then the u.s marshals

Starting point is 00:59:19 came and then they handcuffed me hey guys if have a second, please be sure to share this episode around on social media and with your friends, whether it's Reddit, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, doesn't matter. It's all a huge help. It gets new eyeballs on the show and it allows us to grow and survive. So thank you to all of you

Starting point is 00:59:38 who have already been doing that and thank you to all of you who are going to do so now. Okay. So the jig is up at this point. You're going back to the U.S. You think you might be going for life because you got caught trafficking on this deal, 25 tons of cocaine, right? Yep.

Starting point is 00:59:57 That's a lot. I didn't know the guidelines and all that and i i knew i was already i knew i was being brought over for the old key west indictment which was 4600 kilos but basically i knew i was going to do a lot of time i didn't really know how the system worked but i knew i was going to do some time. That's for sure. Well, you had left. I'm just thinking about this. You left in 88. Your father died in 83. 82.

Starting point is 01:00:32 82. Your mom's still living in the U.S., as you mentioned a few minutes ago. I got arrested on my birthday. Made the papers on my birthday. So you didn't see your mom again after 1988? I saw her once or twice. She went to bogota to see me okay it was a real pain to see them i had to move them around a lot because you know i didn't want them being followed right yeah so and and things were getting more complicated as the years went by it was more complicated, especially when I moved to Europe.

Starting point is 01:01:08 Last time I saw my wife, you know, I saw her in Barcelona. It was a pain in the ass to get her there with the kids and this and going through. You know, it was just getting more and more difficult. My life was, my world was getting a lot smaller. What did your mom think of what you did? Like, did she know? She didn't really want to know the details. She knew I was not in anything legal. She, but she, you know, she, she was always telling me to change lifestyles and change, change and change and change and just leave all this other stuff behind and settle down.

Starting point is 01:01:46 Did you ever seriously, well, you mentioned the sugar plantations in 1983, but outside of that, was there ever a point where you stopped and took a breath and were like, maybe I could get out? Never. Thing is, what keeps you in are your commitments, you see? And in my business, I was constantly committing to more and more. I'd finish one deal, and I already had a commitment to go to another one. So you're always involved in a deal. A deal is always going on. So you're committed.

Starting point is 01:02:21 So it's not like you stop and you you cut everything and disappear so and i liked my business i liked what i did i liked my business i enjoyed it and i really had plans to grow it bigger and bigger i mean how much bigger can you get i mean i was doing freighters but then i was already thinking these freighters are a fuck up the paper trail so now i'm going to build these high speed not high speed but powerful open fishermen and instead of having a freighter with 30 guys on them and payroll and fuel bills four guys they deliver this shit they sink the boat I bring him back simplify the operation he wanted to get to that because I knew the the problem

Starting point is 01:03:14 with the freighters I knew that the paper trail was eventually gonna get us and what got us was that we got infiltrated and how did that what happened there what was what was the infiltration? Some idiot got recruited into the organization. Some guy that should have never been recruited got recruited into the organization as a gopher. But this gopher had a daughter that was studying in the U.S. So he decided to go visit his daughter in the U.S.

Starting point is 01:03:43 and U.S. law enforcement already had an eye on him, grabbed him at the airport and said, we know this, this, this, this, and that. And if you don't cooperate, we're going to fuck you right now and you're going to stay here forever. So they flipped him. So when he went back to Colombia, he was already flipped and cooperating. And I didn't know him and he just thought you were the greek yeah i was a greek but the organization was all right when i got to venezuela we were already compromised did you ever think about at the outset of our conversation like at the very beginning and it started to go to this and i didn't want to go there yet because

Starting point is 01:04:23 i really wanted people to get some background on you and your story but did you ever think about like the morality of what you did because you it's not like you were on the end of it dealing the drugs but you were facilitating drugs around the world that people were going to use and abuse. Was that ever a moral question for you? No. Why not? I didn't think there was anything wrong with what I was doing. Why not? I mean, it's illegal because the U.S. government says it's illegal. I think they're mistaken.

Starting point is 01:04:59 I think that should be legal. Why is liquor? They decided liquor to be illegal during prohibition. Huge mistake. Then they legalized it. You know how many people are still in jail for pot, and now they decide to legalize it? My thing was not a morality thing. I think I was very honest in all my years. And what I did was illegal, but not immoral. At least I think so. Because, you know, what I did, I did time for something that may be legal tomorrow.

Starting point is 01:05:39 I think it should be legal. I think that's the solution. You're in favor of legalizing all drugs. Without a doubt. I think it's the only way to solve the problem. There's always going to be a problem. There's always going to be something new. But this cocaine thing, it's gotten to be, you know, the war, it's a lost war. The cause, I mean, it's down the drain. I mean, if you legalize it, you're going to be able to control it. You're going to put a lot of people out of business,

Starting point is 01:06:05 a lot of agencies out of business. So, you know, basically this has grown so big that it's just a synergy between the good guys and the bad guys. But that snowball is so huge and it's getting bigger. What do you mean it's a synergy between the good guys and bad guys? Yeah, the DEA survives because the cartels exist. The cartels exist, you know, not because the DEA exists, but, you know. Cop needs a criminal, criminal needs a cop.

Starting point is 01:06:32 You know, how are people, how are cases done? You know, if you do regular police work, you'll never catch a guy like me. Now, you sit down with a person like me and you talk to me for an hour and you'll find out a lot more than police work will do in 10 years. So I just think that, you know, cops and robbers is not working. You know, this drug war is a fiasco. There's got to be a better way to do it. Legalizing it, you're going to control it. Just like alcohol. I mean, imagine if you had to buy liquor from your neighbor that, you know, made it last night in his bathtub, you'd probably end up dead. Just like right now, you don't know what you're buying. You're buying fentanyl, thinking it's cocaine and

Starting point is 01:07:15 people end up dead. Making it illegal is just making the cartels more powerful, without a doubt. Today it's legal, and you can buy like a bottle of Johnny Walker Blue, and you can buy a nice gram of cocaine that you know it's pure, it's less harmful to you, and there's no cartel involved. All right, but what about the nature of the fact that because the government did declare illegal we can argue over how to properly legislate drugs and whether or not we're doing that correctly i certainly think we're doing a lot wrong so you have some points there but seeing as it was illegal the marketplace that you have is is run outlaws. It's run by people who will kill on command. They will kill other people involved. Sometimes they sprayed that over to people because they're violent people in many cases. They sprayed that over to people who aren't involved. are moving product that might also you know it's not like it's it's checked for quality all the time and it may be going to specific places like cocaine in this case is like considered the rich

Starting point is 01:08:33 person's drug but then it gets disintegrated down into crack and they move it into into poor neighborhoods and create cycles of addiction you never thought about any of this no because so you know look what happened in gaza they just bombed a food place there's collateral damage and everything oxycontin look at what the sackler brothers did um fda approved fda approved i mean mean, collateral damage, collateral damage, you know, war is legal. And we get involved in war all the time. And I mean, I didn't think about it. I really didn't. I just, I was running a business like it was coffee, whatever. But when you say those things like bombs in Gaza or the Sacklers putting opiates out there the connotation I'm taking from how you're saying that is that the people doing

Starting point is 01:09:28 that are able to do that and it's not good it's evil so if you are doing that and making money on it aren't you the same let's yes you are right that's a good point and okay what I'm doing was, it's not right because it's a drug. It alters your personality. It can kill you. It involves people that are associated that are not good people. Yes, that's wrong. But did I think about it?

Starting point is 01:10:06 No. Did I wake up every morning and think, have a guilt trip about it? No. People got killed? Yes. A lot of them had it coming to them. You know, most of them died of natural causes, natural to the business they were in. But did I think about it?

Starting point is 01:10:29 No, I was very in tune with the business itself and building it up. And maybe, you know, I mean, amoral in that sense. I really didn't. I thought it was the coolest business in the world. I thought it was the coolest business in the world. I thought it was. And like I said, you know, I'm completely mistaken maybe, you know. I mean, I don't think I'm very normal in that sense. But.

Starting point is 01:10:59 Do you wish you had done something else? Now looking back, yes. I wish I would have stopped. My biggest crime was continuing in the business after my daughter was born. Because that you should not inflict on anybody you love. Okay, my mom and dad, okay, they're my mom and dad, you know, and I came out to be some kind of a rogue son. But when my daughter was born, I should have quit with what I had, maybe opened up a couple of Burger King franchises or a coffee business. God knows I had opportunities and I'm not stupid. And it's not the only thing I know how to do. It's, you know, do drugs, logistically move drugs. But I should have never, I've been so fortunate that nothing happened to them

Starting point is 01:11:51 because they could have been caught up. Look, I was kidnapped three times. Two of them, I already had kids. I could have not come home. That's a really fucked up thing to do to your kids is not come home. So that's my biggest crime was staying in the business after my daughter was born. I should have been mature enough to back away and say, I've been blessed. Thank you, Lord, for giving me the opportunity, although it was not the best thing in the world and it was a drug that has its bad things, but I should have quit.

Starting point is 01:12:26 I should have quit way before. Are you a religious guy? Like, do you believe in God? Oh, without a doubt, I believe in God. Have you always been that way? I've always believed in God, but now more than ever because I've personally seen— What happened to me cannot happen to me just because of me.

Starting point is 01:12:47 There has to be a higher force involved in my life. I think I agree with you. What happened to me could not have happened to me just because of me. Because me is not strong enough to have dealt with all this shit. What I feared most was going to jail. And going to jail was fun as hell.

Starting point is 01:13:14 I mean, I played the drums. I worked out. I lost weight. I went to sleep every day at the same time. I woke up. I hung out with a bunch of guys. All we did was bullshit all day. Okay, I wasn't in a super max Charles Manson facility. You were a Coleman though, right?

Starting point is 01:13:30 Yeah, I was a Coleman. But what I feared the most turned out to be not as bad. And it's not because of me. It's because I really believe that there's somebody up there that has some pity or some love or something for me that made this work out much better than if I would have been handling things on my own. All right, so let me ask you a hard question then. That same God that may feel pity and look out for you and appreciate that you believe in that power that's there in this scenario, if that's what you believe. What do you think he would think though about the amoral equation of – or amoral stance of feeling like what you did is fine because somebody has got to do it which could include other people who are under his jurisdiction getting hurt on the other end I mean that's that's I don't even know how to answer that because how do we know he's not pro-legalizing this? You know, how do we know that?

Starting point is 01:14:53 He doesn't think that it's the other people that are messed up that have created a game board that is totally messed up. And if it would have been legal, i would have never gotten involved in it now that's interesting why do you say that because there's no money in it but there's a lot of money in pharmaceuticals and that's legal yeah but i'm not going to get involved and start competing against pfizer i'm not going to be a a drug salesman from office to office selling you know Xanax to doctors. That's not me. I never wanted.

Starting point is 01:15:30 See, I'm more like a pirate type soul that what I'm looking for is freedom in what I do. And getting involved in the pharmaceutical business, might as well be an attorney, might as well be an accountant. I got involved in this really because it was illegal and it was a lot of money and I could do it my way. Thrill. The thrill also, the thrill, the power.

Starting point is 01:16:02 I met people that had a huge impact on me. It could have been different. I mean, I could have lasted two days. I could have met somebody and I could have been killed the second day I met Paulie, for example. But it's just one thing led to the other, and I had the path that was laid out. You know, I was able to deal with the bumps and the turns. And it's something that, like I said,

Starting point is 01:16:50 I fell into a groove that worked out for me and i did not succeed and that groove did not last 25 years because of tricks or magic it was just my charm and my personality and learning every day was a learning experience because you have to learn and you've got to be aware of your surroundings and you cannot be totally foreign to the person that's in front of you. You know, these people require a delicate handling. You know, you can't sit with people like Iván Urdinola and Rasguño and Pablo and the other Pablo and not know exactly who you're dealing with and what they're capable of and how to approach that. A lot of people are dead because of saying the wrong thing at the wrong time.

Starting point is 01:17:33 So you have to really think. I've always been a thinker, but, I mean, this whole morality thing, you're right. I can see your point. But did I think about that cocaine was a bad thing? No, cocaine is just another commodity in the world that's being misused and it's been labeled as illegal and that it's good. No, it's not good. I would not want my kid to be snorting coke. You wouldn't? No, of course not. I wouldn't even want him to drink.

Starting point is 01:18:07 I don't think kids should drink until they've already got money and they're at least 25 years old and your brain is somewhat developed. Liquor in the brain of a young person will distort his thinking, his emotions, everything. Liquor is not good for the human body and the human brain, especially when you're young. You should drink once you're rich and you can afford to do whatever, but if you're trying to work, trying to get ahead, and drinking, it's not a good mix.

Starting point is 01:18:44 And it's very accepted in our society, and that's why you have working alcoholics that drink every day and go to work the next day. But, I mean, just because one thing is bad doesn't mean, you know, this is good or bad. I got you. No, I never thought about, you know, that what I was doing was bad. Well, you talk about that.

Starting point is 01:19:10 It was bad towards my family, for example. Right, what you're saying. Yeah. My lifestyle, the worst part of all this was my lifestyle, that I wasn't mature enough to regulate my lifestyle. In what ways? I was just like enough to regulate my lifestyle. In what ways? Just like my personality. You know, I'm pedal to the metal on everything.

Starting point is 01:19:31 So, you know, when it's time to party, it's time to burn down the house. Right. And I should have just curbed all that. When it's time to get into this business, it's take it to the limit. You know, I started this and I want freighters. And after freighters, I wanted the boats. And after that, you know, who knows? Spaceships.

Starting point is 01:19:53 You know, that's my nature. I take everything to the limit. And, you know, it's not the best. It's not the worst. It's not the best. But it is not the best. It's not the worst. It's not the best, but it is what it is. Well, you talk about how all, you know, lasting 25 years and surviving and being across so many people, including so many who were dangerous and having them like you and whatever. There's something about you that was beyond just your skill and your ability to do what you did that made people not only trust you, but keep you around and never be like, ah, it's time for him to go. But like in your, in your personal life, maybe this is a better

Starting point is 01:20:30 way to go about it than thinking about just the most hardened drug dealers to ever live. But like, you know, when you, when you met your wife, what, what did she love about you? Like, how did you win her over? What in your personality personality did that because i wonder if it's similar to those things that may have won over some of these guys you were you were doing business that's an easy question persistence i father heard them she said yes i was persistent i've always been persistent i um i met her in santa mart, and I was with a friend, and I saw this girl walking into the beach, into the ocean. It was a shallow beach, and she was wearing a bikini, and she had blonde hair, and I saw her from the back,

Starting point is 01:21:16 and I said, the day I have a Colombian girlfriend, I want her to be exactly like her. And then when she came out of the water i went and i approached her and i started talking to her at first she didn't like me i was older than her i was like 13 15 years older than her and but then i just persistent persistent because i really liked her were you charming her always charm goes a long way and And finally, I've been blessed. That's another thing. I've been blessed with having her as the mother of my kids.

Starting point is 01:21:53 And you're really close with her today, as we were saying. Yes, very close. That's pretty cool. And she saved my life. If it wouldn't have been for her, maybe Roz Gugna or somebody, a lot had to do with concern for her and respect for her. What do you mean? They knew that she was a very nice lady. And they also, there's another reason why, for example, Roz Gugna let me go. And it's because he knows I'm not violent.

Starting point is 01:22:28 He knows that I wouldn't make $20 million tomorrow and use that $20 million to wage war. So that's another key thing, because no matter what, if you're a violent person, they don't let you go, because they know that you could turn that violence against them as revenge. I mean, they let me go, and I went into the guy's hotel. But that's also some balls, too. Like, we can't lose that in the equation. You had like this almost like affable, aloof set of balls.

Starting point is 01:23:00 And it was probably on purpose, so it probably wasn't. But it almost comes across like they're just like, like this motherfucker like it's crazy he's out of his mind out of his mind yeah but that's a question that i don't know if it'll ever be answered or i don't know if i'll ever have the answer about that morality because you know and I hate to say, you know, compared to like, you know, well, shit, cars kill people too. Alcohol kills people. No, that's not the right attitude. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:23:33 The attitude is it's wrong, okay? It's wrong to the extent that I would, God bless, I would hate for my kid to do cocaine or my son or my daughter or anything i mean it's a terrible thing it's a terrible thing um but being so terrible we should be able to control it yeah right now it's just out there it's out there and we have nothing to say. So it's really bad. Yeah, and to your point, and this has to be said, there's legalized cartels too. You mentioned it yourself.

Starting point is 01:24:16 You look at what the Sacklers did. That's a legalized cartel. And they killed, and I don't even mind saying this, like give me cocaine over what they did to people all day. I mean, my God, it's just like the worst. They got people on the worst type of drug that just, you know, I just lost someone to it again. You know, it's fucking crazy. My cousin, my second cousin, the son of my first cousin, died as a result.

Starting point is 01:24:46 He was not a drug addict. Just so happens one night they were out partying with a group of friends and they decided to buy a gram. Yep. Had fentanyl. He died. Oh, my God. Yeah. What is – so when you were doing this, fentanyl wasn't a thing.

Starting point is 01:25:01 No. That became a thing in like the last decade decade and a half or so right yeah how would you have dealt with that like like if you were in the business today no that i wouldn't have done there's certain i never did i never got involved in the heroin once we transported five kilos of heroin it's called fro in that book but never never my thing was coke and well i did it myself i mean i saw it not not to justify it that's that's part of what really screwed up my life you know the partying and the drinking and the snorting and shit like that but the the fentanyl, you know, right now, you know, that's just – I mean, I snorted all my life and never really – I mean, I'm not justifying it, but I'm just saying fentanyl is a different ballgame. And now you have like – it's like an international underground war, too.

Starting point is 01:26:07 You have a lot of fentanyl being produced in China that finds its way into Mexico, that then finds its way somehow cut into the product, that then gets its way across the border, and then people are snorting it. And now it's also just sold straight as fentanyl, too, and people are addicted to it and buy it. And they have their thing of Narco or whatever. Narcan, yeah. And they know that thing of Narco or whatever. Narcan, yeah. And they know that they're going to go out that night,

Starting point is 01:26:27 and they know that they're going to go and overdo it and just relive themselves. Now, you know, fentanyl is 100 times more powerful than heroin. They put it in there so they have to put less heroin, and it's cheaper. It's cheaper. But it's just gotten totally out of control. That's why I think it comes to the point that you have to start controlling this because it's out there.

Starting point is 01:26:55 You ever see Tommy G's YouTube channel, The Documentarian? No. He's a friend of mine. He was just on the show, but he just put out, I think it was like a 30 minute doc on fentanyl yeah i was just you know i i've watched this stuff before but now also seeing someone i know go in and go to these places and investigate it and do it it hit home a little more for me i'd highly recommend that for people, but it's just such a growing problem. And to your point, when you talk about legalization, it's a very messy, messy proposition of course because it's like pulling off a Band-Aid very fast – way worse than a Band-Aid, very fast, like tape all over your skin but you wonder if it might actually if something like that would decrease the ability for people to abuse fentanyl or something like

Starting point is 01:27:56 would i rather see i don't want people abusing drugs at all but are there other drugs i'd rather see them abused than that yeah i mean it's certainly a question to ask. It's all about our system, education. It's, you know, I mean, drugs, alcohol, you know, it's just a matter of getting people educated so that nobody desires. But that's a hard, I mean, it's impossible. It's impossible. It's very hard i mean it's impossible it's impossible it's very hard what can i tell you and it's to legalize this forget it it's politically no politician wants to get involved in saying that kind of shit that's the problem it's just and it's a very nasty world and every

Starting point is 01:28:39 day it's getting nastier i mean it was nasty when i was in it it's just getting nastier. I mean, it was nasty when I was in it. It's just getting nastier though. I do believe that this whole cocaine cartel, criminal enterprise, drug world is getting nastier by the day. Do you still talk with people in that world a lot who are actively in it? No, I really don't. But you talk with guys who used to be in it yeah that used to be in it yes and let me tell you it's not because i was in it i don't know the fact is that when all this started it started with marijuana yeah and that was very mellow yeah easy and then compared to what's happening now even the cocaine days were mellower. Even though you had the cocaine cowboys in Miami, that was taken care of really quick.

Starting point is 01:29:32 But now it's just gotten so nasty, nastier all across the board. I mean, it's just getting worse and worse and worse. What's the solution? I don't know. Because legalization, it's possible, but it's very, very difficult. Absolutely. To pull this out, it's just too many vested interests that we don't, I don't even want to get into that. So that's why this ball of wax is just getting bigger and the synergy is getting bigger

Starting point is 01:30:08 and it's just getting nastier and it's it's just i truly believe it's getting worse and worse and worse when it started it was pot people thought that was bad look at the shit that's going on now yeah it's cultural though too i mean i grew up my best friend since I was four years old is Greek. He's a dual citizen, right? So he would live in Greece in the summers. There's no drinking age there. So there was no – those kids, there was no allure of the, oh, I got to drink because that's forbidden. It was just like, oh, oh yeah that's there so they did

Starting point is 01:30:46 cultural and they didn't abuse it exactly but now think about it if you went to if you went to change that overnight like in america you'd have an 18 20 year adjustment period where people would still look at it that way and abuse the fuck out of it you know what i mean it's like you're you're stuck on the train so you can't really get off the train even if it's the move to make because the the cost of getting off it is in this case maybe eliminating a drinking age or something would be so astronomically high that no one wants to do it it's we'd rather continue down this crooked road than to fix the road it's's just, I don't know. I don't know what to tell you.

Starting point is 01:31:27 And I tell you, cocaine, you buy up all the, I mean, cocaine, it's not like it just grows, it does grow on trees, but there's a limited supply. Yeah. You know, you can actually economically control it by buying the limited supply but then you have so many additional problems that come along with that it's crazy yeah and they'll just find something else too like when you talk about your career though with your kids do you a lot like like is that a conversation do you talk about your past with them and what do they think about it if so you know i

Starting point is 01:32:06 do um it is what it is they they don't they don't say it was right they just accept it and now they are happy that i've been able to change my lifestyle and they are very grateful to the U.S. government for pulling me out because I would have never done it on my own I would have died you know I would probably had lived two two more years I probably would have lasted three years the way I was going either gotten killed or had a heart attack. So, yeah, my kids don't approve of what I did. They know it's real. They accept it. And they're very proud that I quit and I never went back.

Starting point is 01:32:59 And, you know, I work at what I do now and I try to be as good a parent as possible, but that I had a bad choice of careers early in life that they do. It was a mistake and you know i i didn't see them for for years because of this yeah we we kind of left off there like when you got caught and sent back to the u.s we left off like when you were about to get on the plane to do it but you get flown back to miami is that right yes fort lauderdale international okay you get off the media is there take pictures of you and everything and you at this point think they got you on 25 tons of cocaine on a deal you don't know how it works as you said but you're assuming you're looking at

Starting point is 01:33:57 maybe life in prison what what happened next and how how soon did you turn on to Team America here? Well, I didn't really know how it worked. And my first, I told my first attorney, listen, I'll do 10 years. I'll do 10 years solid, okay? Just I need to keep some of the money, but I'll do a solid 10 years. And they look at me like saying, do a solid 10 years and keep some of the money. I mean, that won't even happen if you cooperate. You're going to do life. If you don't cooperate, you're going to do life. Number one, they've got the merchandise. This is not a

Starting point is 01:34:46 conspiracy case. There's 25 tons of cocaine and there's 4,600 kilos from the keys. Plus, there's 50 guys in the system that are willing to testify against you. So, you know, you don't have a chance. If you go to trial, you are going to get reamed with life. 30 years, 33 years, you're going to get clobbered because you're going to, you have two indictments. I mean, you're dead. So that's when I started saying, okay, so what's the deal? Thank God a lot of my stuff was historical because I had been involved for so long. And Operation Journey, that was not a result of my cooperation.

Starting point is 01:35:29 They were infiltrated and Operation Journey, that wasn't my fault. I was a victim of Operation Journey. I wasn't the one that was the guy who infiltrated the organization and took it down. So a lot of my information was historical because a lot of years had gone by, but it was a no brainer. And also it happened at a time, this is a Colombian thing. The business is basically, has always been run by Colombia. And in 1998, the head of the Colombian cartels met with the DEA in Panama, and that's also on Google, Barug Vega. And they met in Panama and they started to talk about cooperation and doing less time and giving themselves up.

Starting point is 01:36:30 So since 1998, there started to be an air of cooperation between the cartels and the DEA. So when I got caught in the year 2000, cooperation was already part of the Colombian way of doing things. So we're not part of any jacuzzi or nothing. We're here to make money, and you can't make money while you're sitting in jail for 30 years. So cooperation is part of the business model, I would say. What came first though you i i when we were talking at dinner last night you mentioned there

Starting point is 01:37:05 was like a time where they sent in like 25 agency guys from all they didn't even give id on what they were from they were from all the spy agencies and whatever does that happen after you've already agreed to do a deal or is that a part of the contingent to see if they're going to do a deal no that's after you sign your proffer agreement. Okay. Yeah, and then they come in. The thing is that, you know, I mean, we were taking this to the next level. I was thinking of doing these fast boats to replace the freighters, but after the fast boats, I was already thinking, why the fucking fast boats?

Starting point is 01:37:41 Why cross the Atlantic? Why don't we start growing this shit in Africa? And I'm serious. We had plans to start buying land and growing this in Africa. Can you imagine the cluster dealing with African warlords and arming them with this powerful money-making? This would have been a major cluster. You know what?

Starting point is 01:38:06 Well, you know they do that like crazy today, right? There's an enormous – there is an enormous trafficking ring that starts with Hezbollah, the group funded by Iran, the terror group. And they run – it's like a used car thing. They run used cars through the united states launder them through south america i think it's mexico but i'll just say south america in general and send it through west africa and they like pack cocaine into these used cars and shit and that's what funds hezbollah and they're working with the west african there. Well, I know that West African countries, I mean, landing plane loads of cocaine in Guinea-Bissau.

Starting point is 01:38:52 And that's been a route that's been used for years. Even when I was around, there were plane loads being sent to West Africa. But we were planning on growing it there to avoid the plane loads. I mean, crazy stuff. Yeah. So even the French got really scared when we started to say that, you know, that we were planning to grow it there and everybody came down. You know, the Brits, the French.

Starting point is 01:39:21 They were all in the room there. Yeah. Whoa. Now, the deal you made was it specifically for like i'm gonna get five years in prison or something like that no i i got 11. and then you know you get you do 85 of your time then um but you only did like five right yeah because the rest is a rule 35 that you provide additional cooperation after sentencing and you get a reduction. Okay.

Starting point is 01:39:47 That's what. So you just missed my friend Matt Cox at Coleman. He was there. When did he go in, Alessi? Like 07? Something like that? 06, 07? Yeah.

Starting point is 01:39:56 I want to say. So you got out in 2005, but he was the same thing. Like he went in there. He was sentenced to like 26. He ended up doing 13 because he helped the government on stuff. Also, no violence helps. Yeah, for sure. If I would have had some violence, it would have been a different story.

Starting point is 01:40:11 For sure. So you get in there, and what was that? When you're talking with all these agencies, you're letting them know about the Africa plan. What other kinds of things did you talk about with them? Well, just in general how everything's done. They're very interested in how the shipping, how you recruit in the countries, just the whole logistics of the operation, how the boats are bought,

Starting point is 01:40:41 the funneling of the money, the laundering of the money all that kind of stuff okay and then you end up going to coleman for five were you in there with anyone cool are you friends with anyone we would know crazies yeah we had a great i mean you know coleman i mean it's all about time you know a guy that's doing 27 years is not in the same frame of mind as a guy that's doing five. Right. So you can't mix them up because a guy that's doing 27, you know, puts his head on his pillow every night. 27 is a hair. That's why my first year at the, uh, at the building at the federal building was a tough one. Cause I was still looking at 30 years, 30 years, 30 years, you know, it takes a year for you to start ironing it all out.

Starting point is 01:41:29 And then you get sent away to prison. So you get sent away to prison based on your level of violence and how much time you have. You can't put a guy that's going to do three years with a guy that's doing 30 or a violent guy. But in Coleman, it was you know it was federal time i think anybody can do federal time is good time okay it's good time yeah it's it's that's a new one i mean it's not it's not great to go to jail but i mean i exercised i respected everybody i didn't you know you know disrespect anybody's

Starting point is 01:42:08 there's a code of respect i kept busy playing the drums i take a quick oh yeah yeah let's stop for one sec for a quick break all right we're back what i want to ask though is right, we're back. What I want to ask, though, is right when we're going to break is were you worried about reprisal, though, from anyone connected to the cartels or something because you had cooperated on your sentence? I know you had mentioned that in Columbia there had been a thing between the DEA and the Colombians that this was starting to become a thing, but I got to still think there's a lot of people who are inside it who haven't cooperated, who would be pissed that, you know, someone like turned on some other people within the operation. Well, my case, once again, it was a little different. I had my family living in Mexico. 10 years and to come out of this half-assed good i mean in a good way i was gonna have to cooperate i had my wife go to colombia and talk to some of my partners that were still out there yeah she's got some balls on her yeah i'll say christ so she went to colombia ex-wife at this point my ex-wife that. I'm telling you, if there's a hero

Starting point is 01:43:27 in this story, it's her. This is just one more time that she just went to bat full on. Nobody does this. She went to Columbia and she spoke to a few of my associates that I've mentioned and some that I haven't. And she said, look, he's he's been caught. We all know that. And he's probably looking at 30 years.

Starting point is 01:43:57 Now, he has an option to cooperate, but he wants me to come down here and he wants to be very you know open about this if he has to do 30 years because i'm going to get killed and the kids are going to get killed and this is going to be a major clusterfuck he's going to call it quits and he'll do his 30 years he'll take his lick because that's what it is obviously you know he can't cooperate if something's going to happen to his family. They told her, listen, he's worked with us for years and years and years. We've all made a lot of money. We're all going down the same path. This is over.

Starting point is 01:44:35 There's nothing new. This shit is over. I mean, if we don't get, I mean, we're probably going to end up in the same place he's going to end up. This is. How magnanimous. I mean, and they did. They spoke to her and they said, let him just let him do what he needs to do to get out. And who was it specifically in Columbia she was talking to again?

Starting point is 01:45:04 Well, she talked to Mickey. She talked to Raz. She spoke to Papito. And who else was it? One of them didn't show up. Who was it that was on there? One of them. But she spoke to three of the major persons I was working with.

Starting point is 01:45:30 And they told her that for me to do whatever I needed to do, because we all have to deal with this situation on our own ways, that there's no reprisal, nobody's going to go after her. She lived in Mexico. She didn't live in the U.S. So she didn't have a visa they had taken her visa away well they took yeah and um so i i got the okay from that angle because i was very worried i didn't know what to do i mean you know how the hell am i going to embark on this crazy situation of

Starting point is 01:46:05 debriefing with these people and then having a major problem with my family? And then I asked them, is there any way, you know, I was owed about $7 million. And is there any way you can get some of that? No, the money part, forget about that. That's a big zero on that. Just have him do whatever he can to get out. We're each going to fight our own battles when it comes to the U.S. government because we each have a different situation. But whatever he has to do to, you know, clean his deal, go ahead. Did you, I'm trying to think because you had family money too when your father died right

Starting point is 01:46:47 so when they seized your assets i would imagine they seized pretty much everything that was illegal but you still had money now see my mother lived in this in the same house on kivas gain i could have taken my money and bought her a mansion. I could have added three new floors to her old house, but I didn't want any of that. Thinking ahead, I said, if I ever have a problem, they can't say that any of my money went into her properties or anything. So I never, she, thank God she never needed my money because she had her own so i never mixed apples and oranges but you also you had money for your family then while you were gone and you had money when you came out of prison you just didn't have as much money because they took the legal stuff when my dad passed away and i stayed in the sugar business a few more years we

Starting point is 01:47:42 liquidated all of my dad's holdings, and that went straight to my mom. I didn't need it. I gave it all to her. Okay. I didn't need it. So she had her own money. Is your mom still around today? No, she passed away in 2017.

Starting point is 01:48:00 I'm sorry to hear that. Was it 2017? But the point being, there was at least money in the family. Like you weren't left destitute by this. By what happened to me? Yeah. Well, yes. I mean, they had money, but I also had some of mine.

Starting point is 01:48:18 You still had some. I was allowed to keep some of it. Who were your agents? I want to deal with them if I ever get in trouble. Oh, no. I mean, it keep some of it. Who were your agents? I want to deal with them if I ever get in trouble. Oh, no. I mean, it's not like that. It's not like that. But, you know, it's not like I go out and buy a Ferrari or anything.

Starting point is 01:48:35 But, you know, my wife was allowed to keep her apartment and another property and this and that. Okay. So something. And how quickly, because some of these guys like. Oh, I had the best agents. Yeah. You're like friends with them. No, no.

Starting point is 01:48:52 I, I, I fell in good hands. That's very important too. You can fall into the hands of some real idiots. And these were tough guys, Bob Harley and Eric Obinski. You don't want to be on their bad side. They'll rip you apart. Prosecutor the same. Pat Sullivan, he'll rip you a new one.

Starting point is 01:49:19 But if you're respectful, if you're decent, if you do the right thing, and you're a gentleman about everything. You're not a piece of shit. They'll treat you with respect. And, you know, it goes a long ways. Now, on top of that, they're nice people to begin with because some agents just have a grudge against people. And, you know, they get into being law enforcement officers for the wrong reasons. That's right. So I was fortunate enough to fall into the hands of very normal, highly educated people.

Starting point is 01:49:52 And it sounds like you had pretty quickly after your arrest, you developed some sort of decent relationship with them. Is that fair to say? Yes. And the most decent relationship is a truthful one. The worst thing you can do in any business is lie. You lie to Pablo, you're dead. You lie to U.S. law enforcement, they don't care. You can tell them I moved 500,000 kilos. That's fine. That's the truth. Don't lie to them. Don't lie to them. Just like anybody, the people I used to work with, I lost a fucking load.

Starting point is 01:50:31 There was a hurricane. The boat tipped over. All right. Well, we'd like to see a little goodwill money. But tell them the truth. Imagine Pablo Escobar being like, all right, no problem. Thanks for being honest. We lost loads. We lost loads. I mean, I would not advise anybody to get into this business, but if you do, if you lose a load, it's always good to come up with some good faith money. Goodwill goes a long ways. We don't condone cartel around here.

Starting point is 01:51:03 Don't go do it, but nonetheless. Always offer to help lighten the load, you know. I know you've been hurt. I've been hurt. Here's a little something to ease the pain. And then maybe they'll give you more credit. Did you worry about where the product could be going and what it could be used for? Meaning like I mentioned 20 minutes ago or whatever it was, the whole Hezbollah thing where they're using used cars and cocaine to basically fund like terror operations. Did you ever worry about some of the clientele on the other end using the product to

Starting point is 01:51:45 then get to surreptitious groups that, did I say that correctly? Groups that are going to use it for the wrong reasons? Yeah, the real unfriendlies. No. Maybe because I was so occupied as to what I was doing. I was always busy. I was always busy planning, planning the next one, executing the one I was on. I was always so busy that all I know is that, you know, we transported, we handed it over in Spain or in New York or in Houston, and then they took it and they ran with it. I really did not think about, you know, are they going to give it to Hezbollah,

Starting point is 01:52:34 or Hamas, or these guys, or whoever. I didn't worry about it because it really didn't come into my universe. We were never approached by any terrorist groups for us to work for them. So I was never put in contact or I was never put in that situation. For example, was some of the product that we moved, bought from the FARC. I know that some of it was, okay, because I know that all these cartels end up buying some product from FARC because the biggest supplier of cocaine is FARC, Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias de Colombia. But, you know, I had enough things on my plate

Starting point is 01:53:34 to think about those things. And, you know, we never dealt with any terrorist groups. We never thought that our merchandise would end up in terrorist groups. We, you know our merchandise would end up with in terrorist groups we you know when we dealt here in the states uh you know basically it was all the hippies from santa cruz but obviously you you were a high level guy so when people were when they were put into contact with you to be potential clientele they were serious people they were people with with resources and pockets did you

Starting point is 01:54:12 ever have somebody come to you who you turned down working with them because you're like no we're not doing this like i don't trust this guy or i think there's something off here? No, not really. Cause most of our stuff was already structured. And, you know, for example, when we started working in Europe, yes, we did meet some Russians that were friends of the Greeks and they'd come down to Greece and, you know, they'd come down in their private planes with their ladies and everybody in mink coats and big diamond. I mean, these guys were ostentatious to the max. Oh, yeah. So they were Russians.

Starting point is 01:54:57 Who am I to judge? And the Greeks, the Greeks, the Italians, Americans, Americans. No, we had a very structured situation where we didn't really go out recruiting new clients. We were pretty structured, and we were very busy as to what we were already doing. So never did we have a situation where, you know, because we turned somebody down or we didn't want to work with them, a war broke out or anything. Right. This is all pretty structured, you know, and well thought out.

Starting point is 01:55:43 You had mentioned in Operation journey when you went down simultaneously around the world a lot of people you were associated with went down but like for your coffee and macadamia business of people who were there allegedly doing that but were really helping you run this business like some of your go-to guys and the logistics end of it did they go down too or did some of them kind of get away some of them nothing happened and they just left the business yeah wow they left the business maybe one or two continued but i i've been out of touch so you don't talk with them at all no very very far removed from from that you did this for so long so incognito literally straight out of a movie which is why finally knock on wood here we're getting a movie

Starting point is 01:56:34 made but you know you still didn't end up getting caught but i think a lot about these stories when we see all these guys who have wikipedia pages and i i think about all the guys who don't have wikipedia pages oh who did things who did insane shit at any level whether it's a guy like you who's a non-violent behind the scenes guy who makes it happen or a really violent guy who they just never knew who he was a kaiser soze you will, and who maybe in many cases didn't continue and left the business and are just living openly right now. I know a few. And they just fell through the cracks. It's either, look, there's some people in Bogota. Our problem was, my problem was we got so big. My business model was grow, grow, grow, grow. And that I believe is a wrong business model. I know some guys, or I don't know,

Starting point is 01:57:35 but I know of some guys that have been working this business for the last 40, 45 years. And all they do is send 10 kilos a month to Europe. That's it. They don't do 20. They don't do 30. They don't do 50. But 10 kilos a month will make you $150,000 a month. Great living. So they've been doing this for 30 years, 40 years, and they're still there. I know people that moved hundreds of thousands of kilos. The government has known about them, but the statute of limitations have just not been there to be able to indict them. And they're living, you know, they've got 500, 600, a billion dollars. Oh, my God. And they're untouchable. They're, you know, out there.

Starting point is 01:58:31 The government knows they're out there, but there's nothing you can do. They can't do anything. No, and they work it. And, you know, they fell through the cracks. Were there mystery guys that you were always told about under some moniker that you never met, that you didn't know who they were what their deal was like you met some of the highest dudes there were but were there some of these guys that it's like oh no one really knows who that is or we can't talk about that no it's all i personally met everybody i worked with and i i worked directly with the owners of

Starting point is 01:59:01 the merchandise in my case you know I guess that was old school. Maybe now it's different. But in my case, you know, I met all these guys. It was a different time, you know. It's like, you know, Hollywood, when you can actually meet the actors, not like now, maybe it's artificial intelligence. Who knows who's the head of the cartel now? Maybe it's artificial intelligence. Oh, boy.

Starting point is 01:59:32 I don't know. But things have changed a lot. For me, it was like it was yesterday. But I know for a fact that things have changed a lot. Just in Mexico. You know, Mexico was different before. It's gotten a lot rougher now. Oh, yeah. Do you think a guy like you could exist today? I'm sure guys like me exist today. But in the same way? Non-violent?

Starting point is 01:59:57 Yeah. Yeah. You could still, you know, there's a lot of value to somebody that provides a service and is not violent. As long somebody that provides a service and is not violent as long as you provide the service and you're good at it you know that's the key provide the service and being good if you're violent non-violent that that's secondary i mean my success was that you know my my routes and my logistics were good and my product made it to point Z. Right.

Starting point is 02:00:28 No matter how nice you are or how amicable you are, if you fucking lose load after load after load, you're not going to last very long. So, but, you know, I'm very, very fortunate that I got caught, that I got caught and fell in the right hands, that I was, I did the right thing. And I know a lot of people that just get totally confused. They get arrested. And instead of, you know, you got to put on your best game. This is, when you're dealing with the U.S. government, I mean, that's probably the toughest deal you're ever going to make in your life, and people lose it. You know, they go off on a religious tangent. Yeah, religion is great, but listen, concentrate on what you're doing here. You just can't lose track of what you need to do.

Starting point is 02:01:28 And they lose it. They go nuts. They have very bad support from their families. Their wives leave them. Then they go apeshit. And then they lose focus on taking care of this serious mess they're in. Right. I was fortunate that I was able to focus and keep my head, be healthy, you know,

Starting point is 02:01:53 and I think I did good time. And when you came out of prison, you got into a whole different business. What was it, Impact Windows or something? Yeah. How did that happen well my the girlfriend that gave me the party that i walked out on her father was the innovator and the pioneer of windows in miami i mean big all those big buildings in Brickell that were done in 1980, he did them. Wow. So when I came out, everybody was talking impact windows, impact windows, hurricane windows.

Starting point is 02:02:33 So in the 80s, everybody wanted cocaine. When I came out in the 2000s, everybody wanted impact windows. So it made sense. Give the people what they want. In the 80s, they wanted cocaine. Give them cocaine. In 2000, I came out and everything was impact windows. Miami was impact window crazy.

Starting point is 02:02:54 So I hooked up with him and he said, yeah, come into business with me. We're going to do impact windows. And that's how it started. And you opened up your own, you went into business with him and you you opened up your own you went into business with him but then opened up your own company yeah i went into business with him but then his wife came in and says you know i'm gonna sue you i'm gonna sue you and i'm gonna sue you you are married too and i'm gonna sue you but you have a non-compete closet with me and you i'm gonna sue just because i want to sue you you can't just come out of prison and take over. I have a non-compete. I said, you didn't tell me you had a non-compete with your wife.

Starting point is 02:03:30 No, I do. I do. I said, listen, we'll stay friends, but this is it for the business. And then I continued by myself. But we were at the lawyer's office and we're sitting there signing all these papers. Oh, this is going to be great great right listen i just didn't come off a banana boat i have a non-compete and you and that and then she was going to sue everybody she was even going to sue the attorney oh my god crazy lady crazy lady and um so then i stayed in the business and i you know I built it up I sold it and then I came back and now I moved into the not the finished products end of the business but the uh raw material end right metals and stuff but you also had don't you have like a consulting firm that works with the government advising on not so much anymore not so much much anymore, but you did?

Starting point is 02:04:25 Yeah, I did. When I sold the business the first time around, I had a non-compete clause, and I had to not do windows for two years. So I decided to go back and do a little consulting work. And you went undercover, right? Yes. What was that like, and where were you going you know it's

Starting point is 02:04:48 uh it comes natural i mean to me that kind of stuff i know it so i feel comfortable i'm i'm in my own element you know where'd they send you to do it? I've been all over. I've been to South America. But you didn't, but weren't you like kind of known? Like, weren't people going to be on to that? No, I mean,

Starting point is 02:05:12 Jesus, 15 years, everybody changes. I mean, people forget, things change. And it was more than anything out of, you know,

Starting point is 02:05:22 the adrenaline rush. It's, you know, and you're working with good people. If I would have felt out of place, I wouldn't have done it. But, you know, we had a good game plan. Are you allowed to say what kind of things it was? No, I'd rather not. But put it this way. It's not the kind of thing that you build up and it's nothing you can leave your kids.

Starting point is 02:05:51 So I went back to my business and I built that up and, you know, it's something more, you know, solid. And how are you going to leave your son a consulting business of that nature? Right, right. That's crazy. It's not. And also, I felt that these guys helped me a lot, so there's nothing wrong with me helping them a bit. Playing for the other side.

Starting point is 02:06:19 When I was on the black side, I was black, white, white. I was never gray. I never played both. That's a good way to put it. I was either in or I was out. All in or all out. I never, while I was in the business, I never worked for the other guys or informed or nothing like that okay and what do you do

Starting point is 02:06:47 the metals business you talked about a couple times today but like what what specifically are you doing there well basically um a lot of the you know the products that we sold as window products finished products they're all aluminum so we sell aluminum to the extruding companies and you know that make the windows or there's a lot of um companies that we sell copper to copper for where do you go wiring yeah where do you go well that's sourced either in india middle east turkey africa and it's sold uh to a lot of extruders in mexico central america some in the u.s uh it's um products that are sold mostly you know to industrial

Starting point is 02:07:47 for industrial use do you leverage contacts that you may have come across in your old life for that at all or no totally different that would be not in a bad way no that's not what I mean like just people you came across or whatever who were

Starting point is 02:08:03 connected to certain things that may for a legal business like this actually make sense that's what I'm. Like just people you came across or whatever who were connected to certain things that may, for a legal business like this, actually make sense. That's what I'm getting at. Not like anything illegal. No. Most of the people, you know, that were in that business, I haven't seen in a very long time. I mean, a lot of time has passed by. Oh, yeah. No, all these people in the new metals business and all this, new people I met, you know, since I started in the windows and so on and so forth.

Starting point is 02:08:36 Got it. I had said we were going to put a pin in Armado Carrillo Fuentes because that had come up earlier, and I didn't want to get you off on a tangent, but I think you were saying you had dealt with him as well. He was a major kingpin in Mexico. Is that where you were getting at? No. I dealt with his lieutenant there in Mexico,

Starting point is 02:08:59 and I have friends that worked directly with Armado, but I never worked directly with him. Okay. No. I worked directly with him. Okay. No. I worked with the Arellanos. Well, they were also big. Yeah. They were huge.

Starting point is 02:09:13 You ever work with El Mayo or El Chapo? Yes. Directly, I never met El Chapo, but some of the people I worked with in Colombia and under the same umbrella, the same company, let's say, we did send merchandise to Mexico. And back then, we were dealing with somebody that we called El Rapido, and that was El Chapo. You called him El Rapido?

Starting point is 02:09:44 Why did you call him El Rapido? Because back then, when you sent merchandise to Mexico, a lot of times it would take 30 days to cross. You would send it today, you know, they would receive it, and they would cross the border and hand you the merchandise in L.A. 30 days later. That was normal, 30 days. Why was it 30 days?

Starting point is 02:10:06 Suddenly, this guy, El Rapido, because he started using tunnels, was able to cross this merchandise in two days, four days. Then they called him El Rapido, and it turned out that was Chapo. But when we worked with him, we referred to him as El Rapido. When did he start using the tunnels, like the early 90s? Well, they used it even back in the late 80s and stuff like that to cross pot. But the big time, I remember that we saw it. We saw it.

Starting point is 02:10:42 It was like the early 90s, yes, that the time periods shortened dramatically. That's why, you know, that's why they called them El Rapido because, like I said, they used to take 30 days and suddenly it started taking three, four days and that's when um they really grew fast and the chapel group uh was taking in most of the merchandise in mexico and but the biggest in mexico at the time was

Starting point is 02:11:17 amado carrillo amado was very big he used planes very big that's what i was asking because you had talked about bringing the planes in and then after rafa was already gone you were doing that so i would imagine i was working with somebody that they called el ocho that he was uh connected with a osiel cardenas the golf cartel and i never i never dealt with them at all. What was the – like when El Chapo was getting in and out of prison, he did it like through the tunnel and whatever and was on the run and all that. I think that was when people in America started to realize just how intertwined the cartels are with the political system in Mexico. Like that's always been a thing, but maybe in our consciousness,

Starting point is 02:12:11 we started to realize that more. What I want to know is when you were there though, as a middleman, effectively, you spent how many years living in Mexico? Like three or four, something like that? Three or four years, but i've been going to mexico for the last 20 years okay how much interaction did you have with politicians and cops to pay them off none none none that was not my job i had my mexican connection that was his job oh so they took care of all that for you yes no i didn't go there okay probably for the best yeah no no you know i didn't uh if i didn't have to go there i wouldn't go there what were the biggest differences between the mexican cartel and the Colombian cartel?

Starting point is 02:13:06 Colombians are very organized. They were very structured. The biggest difference is just, I mean, attitude. For example, when I was in Mexico, I mean, the biggest mistake you can make is being a Colombian and going to Mexico and trying to be a boss in Mexico. You know, Mexico is for the Mexicans. Let the Mexicans run Mexico. And a lot of people have made that mistake.

Starting point is 02:13:42 Colombians going to Mexico trying to tell the Mexicans what to do. They end up dead. So Mexicans have their style. Colombians, they're more business-minded, let's say, but the big, big, big money is in Mexico. And it's gotten to a point that, you know, Colombians don't want to deal in the U.S. anymore. They've already been through that program in the 80s. A lot of people got indicted in the 90s. So right now, the Colombians are sending most of their product to Europe, to Asia, Australia, Japan, India, and they let the Mexicans handle the U.S.

Starting point is 02:14:26 So let's say, you know, Mexicans buy 10,000 kilos in Colombia. So the Colombians will sell them the 10,000 kilos. 5,000 will belong to the Mexicans, 5,000 to the Colombians. The Colombians sell their product in Mexico to the Mexicans. So the big distribution is done by Mexicans in the U.S. The Mexicans run the U.S. market. And that's today. Today.

Starting point is 02:14:58 Which makes sense. But what you're saying is Colombia is still very powerful. Very powerful, of course. And who's in power now? Because the cartels we've been talking about, Medellin, Cali, they're all long gone. I really don't know, but it's a bunch of, the style has changed. Now you could be in a restaurant with a totally unknown guy, young, old, whatever, and he runs a massive cocaine business

Starting point is 02:15:25 and nobody even knows about it. They've learned a lot from all the experiences they've had over the years. Wow. Yeah. Mexico is more visible, you know. It's the wild west out there. Colombia is still, you know, they've changed their profile. So.

Starting point is 02:15:51 Yeah, the Mexican cartels, that's all we ever hear about. That's part of it, too. We're kind of biased because, like you said, they handle the U.S. And we have the border problem with drugs coming across and things like that. So we forget about some of these other ones. But that's interesting that Colombia is still kicking that much. Colombia, yeah, it's sending most of their product is going to Europe. I mean, like I said, Mexicans are running the U.S.

Starting point is 02:16:19 That U.S.-Mexico border is off the wall. Yeah, a lot. It's crazy. U.S.-Mexico border is off the wall. Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy. And the Colombians really don't want nothing to do with the U.S. They believe the U.S. is too proactive. Like, they'll send merchandise to Holland, and, you know, Holland knows where it came from, probably knows who owns it, this and that. But Holland does not get proactive and go and indict the Colombians.

Starting point is 02:16:47 The U.S. does, even though it's done in Colombia. They don't want to deal with that. They don't want to deal with the U.S. Fair enough. We had talked at the very beginning of our conversation about you and Jesse getting together and how that all happened, where you ended up up writing this book but what made you want to finally do this because it's not like you got out of prison and wrote the book you wrote it years later and you're a guy who like we said to this day doesn't even put his real address on his on on his driver's license

Starting point is 02:17:20 and now he wrote a book and he's at least willing to come on a podcast what what changed i don't know i just i started writing it and thinking about it when i was in jail and i said i'm going to do a book and suddenly i don't know i bumped into jesse and what started out as something that maybe or maybe not started to become reality more and more every day. And suddenly, you know, one day Jesse had the book written and it was written and we spent two, two and a half years talking on the phone, him in Australia, me in Miami with the time difference. But we worked on it, worked on it, worked on it. And it's something that happened. And there it is. It's just like the movie now.

Starting point is 02:18:09 And yeah, you're right. This guy doesn't put his eye. But he's out here doing a podcast show. Weird. But I guess it's something that in the end, I always wanted to do it. And the people that convinced me or told me that it was a good idea were the agents themselves, like Bob Harley. He told me, listen, I've interviewed 20 guys and they all want to write a book. And they all, the one thing they have in common is you. They all talk about

Starting point is 02:18:38 Louis Navia. So they're five minutes of your life. The one that should write the book is you. Yeah. So, and they, and they told me a lot of them, most of them have always told me that they, you know, dealt with a lot of people, heard a lot of stories, but mine is definitely unique. So go ahead and write it. Yeah. I hope everyone goes and gets it.

Starting point is 02:19:02 And I mean, if you've listened to these two podcasts, we just did today. I mean, my God, you have easily the most unique story from the cartels I've ever come across. And it's a wild ride. It is a wild ride. And like I said, I said this at some point earlier, probably in the first podcast, but like the federal agents and stuff check a lot of this stuff out i mean not every single thing can be checked but like the things you talk about in the places you were you really were you really did do these deals you really did know these people like um if if we didn't have the backing of like the government being able to say yeah no we we did

Starting point is 02:19:41 these cases and this is what he was doing you wouldn't believe what you say because it doesn't even make sense. No, it's fiction. It sounds like fiction, but it's real. Yeah. I mean, I look back at it now, and I said, if I had to do this all over again, I couldn't do it. Did I plan this? No.

Starting point is 02:20:00 Now, Jesse thought it was fiction. He said there's no way that that can all be true. And then that's why this has like 120 pages of bibliography and research and references. It's crazy. He did a tremendous job. And that's why the intro is so long with so many. It's basically Jesse. I mentioned this earlier, but it's basically Jesse talking to us, the audience, and walking us through all the different angles he's been covering and with highlights of conversations he's had with you.

Starting point is 02:20:32 And it paints the picture of like he was going into this like no fucking way. And then by the end, he's like, well, I'll be dipped in shit. Alberto Cecilia, he couldn't believe it. Yeah. And, you know, I've been very truthful that's you know and he just uh he had everything I said he had to confirm it because you know that's his his business he's an author he has to be a hundred You know, he can't, there's no room for mistakes. And then that's part of the attractiveness of this, that, you know, it's like a fiction, but it's real.

Starting point is 02:21:15 What do you think we, like the public in pop culture today, looking at the era that you participated in of cartels, what do you think we get the most wrong about it? Like we don't, we clearly, just from a standpoint of thinking we get it we don't well it's it's not as glamorous as they put it, you know. You know, it's hard work. And there's a lot of money involved, but you don't keep all the money. You know, and some of the things that are put on TV look a lot easier than they actually are. Like what I did, it took a lot of hard work. I may not have, maybe I didn't go to an office from nine to five, but I was thinking about this 24 seven.

Starting point is 02:22:12 This completely encompasses you. Talk about being a workaholic. So it's not as easy as they portray it. It takes a lot of hard work, and it's fast money, but it's not easy money. Yeah, I see. I've been watching you today when you'll explain things. I'm similar. You'll start to draw things out with numbers and almost doodles and directions. And I can watch your mind moving and how you're, like, calculating everything. And I see why you were successful at what you did. You have to be constantly. And this is nothing. I mean, sometimes I go through four or five pages. This has just been a nicer interview.

Starting point is 02:23:03 You know, not the other ones aren't nicer but you know we've been able to flow but a lot of times i do five six pages and but i'm always uh i always keep notes because that's what i that's what you do yeah that's what i do but i um i tell you i don't know I don't know how I did it. If I had to do it again, I don't think I could. Well, Luis, it is a wild, wild story. I got to get you to your plane so you catch your flight on the way out of here. But this has been a really awesome conversation.

Starting point is 02:23:36 I'm glad we could do it. And I'm happy you're alive. I mean, I don't know how, but Jesus Christ. And thank you very much because it's really been a great time, great meeting you, and we've had a tremendous chat here. Absolutely. We'll have to do it again sometime, all right? The movie. Yes, the movie's coming.

Starting point is 02:23:56 We got that on deck too. We'll figure that out. But for now, everyone else, you know what it is. Give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace. Thank you guys for watching the episode. Before you leave, please be sure to hit that subscribe button and smash that like button

Starting point is 02:24:08 on the video it's a huge help and also if you're over on instagram be sure to follow the show at julian dory podcast or also on my personal page at julian d dory both links are in the description below finally if you'd like to catch up on our latest episodes use the julian dory podcast playlist link in the description below thank you

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Julian Dorey Podcast - #222 - Ex-Cartel Kingpin on The Vatican, Morality & his Downfall | Luis Navia

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