Julian Dorey Podcast - #232 - Royal Family-Backed Ranger Murdered During Documentary | John Jurko & Orlat Ndlovu

Starting point is 00:00:00 The plan was to get rid of us, the both of us, myself and Anton, so that they can operate freely. And I remember one of the guys told me during the hearing to say that if the company doesn't dismiss me, then they're leaving them with no choice but they will have to shoot me. And so I'm like working out, he's sleeping in the next room. All of a sudden he comes in the room and his hair is kind of crazy. His eyes are bloodshot. I was like, hey, man, what's going on? And he looks at me, and he goes, they got him. Got who?

Starting point is 00:00:32 He's like, they got Anton. Basically, they pretended like their car had broken down, and they went up to Anton, who was, I think, working on his truck at the time, pretended like they needed help, and Anton's just always in that mode of like, hey, how can I help you guys? And then they basically pulled out their guns and shot him right there. His wife, Grace, came out, and I think she was right there, and then she screamed, and they shot her in the stomach.

Starting point is 00:00:54 And then one of his kids tried to get his sidearm, and they shot at him before taking off. Anton didn't deserve what happened to him, but it happened. So if it happens to me, so be it. But I won't stop doing what I'm supposed to do. What's up, guys? If you're on Spotify right now, please follow the show so that you don't miss any future episodes and leave a five-star review. Thank you. All right, guys. I know that was a long half hour trying to get all these wires figured out.

Starting point is 00:01:33 Thank you so much for your patience, and thank you both for being here all the way from Africa. This is really, really cool. Yeah, it's really a pleasure to be here and get to meet you in person, Julian. Absolutely. Appreciate you having us. Well, I came with them from Africa, but live in Atlanta. So, these guys- I couldn't tell. I don't know if you can tell by my accent or anything, but not South African. All right. Well, this is a real privilege today because we have Orlat here, who is on the ground, you said 15 years as a ranger in South Africa?

Starting point is 00:02:04 Yes, that's affirmative. Yeah, more said 15 years as a ranger in south africa yes that's affirmative yeah more than 15 years now that's amazing but you guys obviously john you made a documentary here you had a whole team doing it with you as well i think you were making it for like six seven years something like nine years in total i've been involved six yeah wow okay so essentially the documentary is amazing, by the way. I had a chance to watch it literally like this afternoon on my walk after the first podcast. It's been a long day right now, but I'm glad we could fit this in while you guys were in town. So it's amazing, but it's also very sad because unfortunately real life met art in the worst way, and your very close friend Anton, who was a major subject of this documentary, was fairly recently murdered by the poachers who he had been spending his life fighting.

Starting point is 00:02:57 So I'm sorry for your loss, by the way. I believe you're his cousin, Leda? That's correct. Yeah. So by the way, shout out to L to later alessi is out of the country right now everybody so we were trying to fit this in and later just learned how to use the switcher just now and she's doing a great job so bear with us but i think we're going to be good today so i think the the best way to do this is i want to get to your story or a lot and i want to

Starting point is 00:03:22 get to your background with an Anton from your perspective as well. But, John, seeing as you have now put this into a documentary that's endorsed by Prince William and everything, so it's pretty serious. What got you into this topic in the first place? Yeah, it's a very strange set of circumstances that got me here. I was out in L.A. for a couple of years working on films out there, mostly camera, you know, assistant camera, operating, things like that. And L.A. kind of burned me out as much as I love California and the mountains and everything out there. It was time to recalibrate a bit because I really wanted to focus more

Starting point is 00:04:01 on story development and screenwriting and, you know, being more involved in the directing side of things. So I stepped back from LA for a little bit. I ended up reconnecting with a university flame crush. And she got a job at Emory in Atlanta. And I'd never been to Atlanta. I knew there was a lot of filmmaking going on there. But I was like, what the heck, I'll go check it out. And I think on my first trip down there, I saw, or I connected with this company called Friendly Human that was doing a lot of corporate videos and also helping a lot of nonprofits in the space do, you know, just projects for good to help them

Starting point is 00:04:42 grow. And they had this interesting little trailer for this movie called Rhino Man. And I think they had shot it in 2015 and put it together. And so I was like, huh, these guys are doing some really interesting things. So it wasn't really, you know, I didn't, I wasn't like, ah, I need to make a story about the rangers and rhinos. I just saw this and I, I thought these guys were doing incredible stories and wanted to try and get some work with them because I was just moving to Atlanta and didn't have any. So I tracked them down. I basically stalked them for a year, got some interviews with them. And once I started working there, I was like, so how's this Rhino Man project going?

Starting point is 00:05:18 And at that time, it had kind of stagnated a little bit. They were just getting busy with business work. And I took a look at it and there were all these amazing vignettes about rangers and rhinos. But for me, I really wanted a story arc, you know, coming from more of the narrative scripted backgrounds. I wanted to follow someone through their journey throughout the film. And so I connected with Matt Lindenberg, who was from South Africa. He started this project as a way to tell these rangers stories.

Starting point is 00:05:45 And I think when he had this idea, it was more of just like, let's get these little short films out about rangers talking about, you know, Rhino Man of the Day, this is what we're doing. Because at the time, just nobody really knew what rangers were doing. This was, I think, before Virunga even came out, which is one of the first big films that kind of cover that topic. And, and he connected with the production company and they're like, Hey, we'll help you out. And so they went and shot some footage, made this trailer. I think someone from Nat Geo on the social media reached out and was like, Hey, so when's the film going to be ready? And that was when they were like,

Starting point is 00:06:17 Hmm, maybe we should make a movie. And yeah, so I got connected and Matt was there and he still wanted to see this thing go further and grow. And so we just sat down, started brainstorming and figuring out who the main characters would be. And they had already had some footage at that time. And Matt had a relationship with Anton. He'd known him for a long time. He knew Ruben de Kock. And so we kind of realized that these were two of the major storylines that we wanted to grow and develop.

Starting point is 00:06:45 And so that kind of sent us on this journey of shooting more and building out the story. And this is back in 2015, you said? So it started in 2015. I got connected to it in 2018. So it had been two, three years under production when I came in. And then that's when we decided to kind of expand the story a little bit and focus on these characters. Got it. So it's pretty much like you had a very rough outline of like, oh, here's the setting and everything. And here's some cool footage. And then you're like, okay, now let's make the story. Let's build the story on top of that.

Starting point is 00:07:17 Yeah. I mean, it's difficult. I feel like when you're going into a documentary, you might have an idea of what you want to do. But depending on what topic and what kind of story it is, it's like you're learning and trying to figure out who the characters and subjects are. And so I think they did a great job of like exploring all these different avenues. But there's an incredible amount of footage that's not even in the film, different characters, rangers, all kinds of things. But I think what we really wanted to do

Starting point is 00:07:41 was narrow it down so we could see through the eyes of these couple, two, three people, their journey through this. And that's what we really wanted to focus on. And we ended up raising some funds through the nonprofit Global Conservation Corps, which Matt started as well. And that's when I went to Africa for the first time in 2018 to start fleshing this out. Wow. Okay. So you and I were connected through mutual friend Ryan Tate. He runs VetPol. He's been on this podcast now twice. It's something that's near and dear to my heart. And this whole topic of this part of conservation working against the, let's call it what it is, international poaching rings who are trying to destroy the future for our grandkids and great grandkids to have these magnificent creatures on the earth,

Starting point is 00:08:25 you know, this, this is something I think needs a lot more attention. And one of the things that's really struck me in all my conversations over the years with Ryan is, is how much people on the ground from different countries in Africa where, where these species, take this so damn personally, right? Obviously you have some people who are on the wrong side of it who are shooting animals for money, but it's such an emotional tie because it's like this beautiful part, not just of the land, but of the legacy.

Starting point is 00:08:58 And I think you guys did an amazing job capturing that in this documentary. You could see it on these, on these Rangers who were going through their own like buds training in a way we'll talk about that, but you know, how personally they took it and how emotional they were about it to say nothing of, you know, when, when tragedy strikes and then it really gets emotional, but we're allowed as, as we said, you, you are one of them. So I think we mentioned it. You've been doing this for 15 years.

Starting point is 00:09:27 What was your first – like do you remember the first moment when you said to yourself, I really want to get involved in protecting these creatures, be it elephants, rhinos, lions, whatever the poachers are going after? No, thanks a lot for this opportunity. So when this know, look at beds, different beds. And, you know, I was sort of like enjoying the bed calls and the coloring. And, you know, I always was curious as to how does that happen. You know, so luckily my granddad was working at Timbawa, the private nature reserve. Then during school holidays, I would visit him. And one day I saw rangers coming back from work,

Starting point is 00:10:31 but I didn't know they were rangers. Then I asked him, what are those guys, what are they doing? And he told me as to those are rangers and this is what I do. And, you know, because at that age, I had friends who would go out and shoot those beds. And, you know, I started to get frustrated and I was furious and I never wanted to go out with them because I felt like whatever bed that they were shooting, you know, they were taking away what I was enjoying.

Starting point is 00:11:04 Wait, your friends were, how old were they when they were doing that? We were from local villages you know. They were shooting birds to eat them you know. Oh. So yeah they were sort of like hunting if I may call it that way. Yeah. So and when I saw them I was like yeah wonder where when I want to be like those guys and when when I when I finished my school unfortunately I didn't go for facilities and stuff but

Starting point is 00:11:39 I started working at a mine for for two years What kind of mine? It was a gold mine somewhere in South Africa. What was that like? I felt like, you know, I didn't belong there. I felt like I was suffocating. But because I had no choice, so I worked for two years. But then luckily, the late Antoine Mzimba, he was working at Timbawati Private Nature Reserve by then when I was working at a mine. So it came a time where they retrenched us. Then I was part of the team that were retrenched. Then Anton gave me a call to say that, yeah, here they're looking for people to fix

Starting point is 00:12:26 roads and, you know, deal with erosion controls and stuff. And I was quick to jump. And by that time, back in the mind, they were giving me calls to say that I need to come back. But I never went back. I said that, no, I'd rather I go to Timbavati and you know my space much better than conservation but i chose conservation without knowing that that's where i belong so i went i went to timbavati and i started uh fixing roads and you know fences and then all that for for years. And back then, you know, we were ending. It wasn't enough because you will never get what you say it's enough. But I felt very much at home when I met Timbavati than being at a mine. So in 2009, they were looking for rangers at Timbavati because they had the smallest team, but they wanted to add a few.

Starting point is 00:13:31 Then I was lucky to have been one of the guys who were chosen to do the selection. That very strenuous exercise that if you have watched the movie, you might have seen. Oh, yeah. So I've went through that. And, you know, the training to me, I felt it like it's nothing. And I know the reason why. When I finished on the last day, I felt like I'm about to go to do the selection process because it's something that I wanted to do from the early age.

Starting point is 00:14:12 So it's the reason why when I got that opportunity, I made sure that this is what I wanted to be. I've got to make use of this opportunity. And I made it through, went for my basic. So I started in 2009, went for my basic to be a qualified field ranger since 2009 up until today. And I was lucky to be working all lot know I talk all the time about how cluttered my mind gets with all kinds of thoughts. And I'm sure many of you out there who have busy lives yourselves can certainly relate to that. So for me, writing down these thoughts a couple times a week in a journal is certainly a big help.

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Starting point is 00:15:29 with BetterHelp. So go visit betterhelp.com slash Julian to get 10% off your first month today. That's betterhelp, B-E-T-T-E-R-H-E-L-P.com slash Julian for 10% off your first month today. This link is going to be in my description below. And I hope all of you out there who are in need of someone to talk to consider using this great resource at better help. It's amazing. And we're going to, we're going to dig into all that today. Cause I know there's a lot that happens in those 15 years, but I want to keep this straight as well. So what, I mean, it is a math game on these things right like we can see where the species numbers were in say 1900 and then where they got to by say like 2000 and there are like you know i don't want to be totally alarmist on everything there are some some good trends

Starting point is 00:16:19 thanks to guys like you who who are out there one telling the story and two on the ground actually oh sorry one actually on the ground doing and two telling the story about it but you see how we've started to turn around the rhino population which was getting damn near where they're going to declare them extinct we actually have i want to remember this offhand i want to say we're up to like 460,000 elephants or something in africa now which it's not at the million two it used to be, but it's not at the 250 that it got down to. So there are some good trends. But, John, I think a really good way to go through this that has been great when Ryan's been in here but you're coming at it from another perspective or that ad, whatever you would like to this is to explain where a lot of these poachers are coming from, because there seems to be a misconception that, oh, it's just like the

Starting point is 00:17:12 locals getting a payday. I guess like once in a while it's that, but it seems to be like, literally like some of the terror groups are coming in and taking contracts from other countries to, you know, then fund their terror and get the products to other countries. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's a little bit different in every country. But, you know, I guess I can give some context because this film specifically is focused on the rhino poaching situation. But, you know, as you know, there's many different species that are being poached and endangered. But in terms of South Africa and rhinos, I mean, like you said, I think rhinos, somewhere 17th, 18th century, I think they estimate around 500,000 at one time. So that

Starting point is 00:17:51 was probably the maximum. And now they're down to about 27,000 worldwide. I think in terms of the black and white rhinos, which are in South Africa and mostly African rhinos, it's somewhere 15,000, 16,000 in that range. I'm probably off a little bit. But if you go to Asia where there's the Javan and Sumatran rhinos, I think both of them are well under 100. So they're very close to losing those species completely. And the driver for most of the rhino poaching is the horn. That's what is under demand by mostly China and Vietnam, which is bullshit. Yeah. And it's, they're using it for traditional medicine is kind of originally what it was being used for, but it's a toenail. Yeah. It's, it's essentially hair it's keratin. So it's like your toenail, your hair, it has a root and it grows

Starting point is 00:18:43 and we can get into it. But I mean, as one of the preventative measures, they're cutting the horns off now without killing the rhinos so that it de-incentivizes the poachers. But that's also a huge problem because it affects the mating and therefore evolution. I think it's still early days to know how much it's affecting it. But I think they're finding more and more that, yeah, it's changing things. And, you know, it sucks to have to go out and see these wild creatures who are somewhat mutilated because we're trying to save them from being poached to death, poached to extinction. But yeah, so that demand is coming from Asia for the most part. And it's, you know, started out as traditional medicine. Now it's being used as an investment.

Starting point is 00:19:25 You know, they're carving it into libation cups. Libation cups? Yeah, it's like special ritual cups that you can drink out of or an ornament that you can put on a shelf. They'll carve art into it, which just enhances the price that you can get for this horn and sell it as an investment almost. So I think I have a podcast that's kind of helping elevate this story called the Rhino Man podcast. And I've interviewed a lot of people outside of the film side of it. And what I keep hearing is, and I'm not, I just want to say I'm a filmmaker and I kind of got into this and I've learned as I've gone. So I'm not really coming

Starting point is 00:20:02 in as a conservationist or a biologist or something like that. So I might be off on certain things. But this is just from all the conversations I've had, you know, especially somewhere around 2008, that part of Asia really elevated economically, which created more of a middle class that had money to spend. And so, you know, there was always certain demands for these different animal products over the years. But now, all of a sudden, you have these huge populations that have the financial ability to purchase it. So just, you know, the demand skyrocketed. And because of that, the pressure on the rhinos, elephants, other species in Africa, the poaching pressure has really gone up. So I think you saw a lot of these animals being poached more central, eastern Africa, and then slowly kind of made their way down. And I think a part of that was because of the stability in different countries over the years.

Starting point is 00:20:54 And South Africa being probably one of the more stable ones, they were the last one to get hit. So a lot of these rangers like Orlatt were being trained even prior to 2008 when the poaching crisis started to take off. And a part of that was anticipating this poaching war coming to them. And so it's a mix of that demand. But then you have a place like Kruger National Park, which is, I think, is about 2 million hectares, 4 million acres. It's a huge piece of land. In South Africa. In South Africa that rangers are protecting.

Starting point is 00:21:28 And along that border, there's close to 4 million people, which is a huge population. And poverty is very high. Unemployment is near 50%. So there's just not that many opportunities. I mean, like Orlok kind of mentioned, you can get jobs in the mines, but a lot of these kids, when they're getting ready to start earning, don't have opportunities for that. So these poaching syndicates prey on people that don't have opportunities, maybe have financial problems, and they try to start incentivizing them with, oh, if you give us a little bit of information, you'll get you'll get some money. And so they hook people into it. And then even if they decide that this isn't what they want to do, then they start putting pressure in the other direction saying, Oh, if you're not going to do this for us, we'll kill

Starting point is 00:22:12 your family, we'll we'll kill you, we'll take you out of the system. And it becomes really tough to fight this battle when you've got that many people being influenced by essentially a cartel system full of corruption on the outside with lots of money to spend. It really makes it difficult for rangers like Orlatt to fight. Orlatt, how many, it's kind of hard to answer this question, but do you view the people who maybe like, not even just do the poaching but support the poaching from the native community as like a major minority? As in do most people – let me ask that better. Do most people, native South Africans, think that this is terrible, the poaching, and they want to protect it, protect the creatures? I think most of the people in South Africa, they felt like, you know,

Starting point is 00:23:12 there was a boundary between them and these animals. Like, they felt like the animals doesn't belong. They're not owning them. So they didn't care much about protecting them. Hence, when they were approached, then they were quick to respond to say that, okay, we're going to do it. Because they felt like, you know, it doesn't belong to them

Starting point is 00:23:34 and, you know, they're not benefiting from them. Hence, they're just hearing that there is rhinos and elephants. They haven't seen them. So I remember there was a saying that we will hunt this rhinos up until there is no more because they felt like it belongs to somebody else yes and because they're not benefiting from that so there is no way they can try and save them rather Rather they make money out of those because, you know, it's some kind of a way of making money or benefiting from those, I think.

Starting point is 00:24:11 And that's where the problem started. You get to get these local communities, you know, starting to flock in in numbers. And now you're dealing with people that they know you and you know them and that's where the threats comes in because you you're coming from that local community and now you sort of like uh being a stumbling block uh between them and the wildlife or the animals that they're targeting so they they go as far as targeting you even when you're outside of work because they feel like you are that barrier in between.

Starting point is 00:24:50 You are that blade proof of the animals that they want. And very often you get life threats either for you or for your family members that if you keep on doing what you're doing, then this is what's going to happen. Can I add a little more context to that? So I mentioned the levels of unemployment with people living near these national parks. And part of that is this, it's a bit of a historical, you know, overlay of what the results of the apartheid South Africa was. So during that time,

Starting point is 00:25:28 most of these black communities were moved out of these national parks and put into, you know, more centralized communities and their families were split up. I mean, you could probably talk a lot better to this than I can, but now that these reserves have been made, a lot of tourists are coming in, bringing a lot of money, but a lot of that money is going to either white landowners or even international landowners. So if you're living on the border of these fences in these communities, and you're not really getting access to see the wildlife, but also all of these people from either outside of the country or, you know, who are white and you're not, are making all of this money off of it and you're not seeing any benefits, you're not getting to experience the wildlife,

Starting point is 00:26:15 you know, what incentive is there for you to help, you know what I mean? Yeah. To stop the poaching. So as Orlat was saying, a lot of these people are like, well, we're not benefiting from it. We're not getting to use it. Traditionally, you know, we used to live in these areas so we could hunt the wildlife and eat it, cook with it, use it for different things. And now we're not allowed to and we can't make any money off it. That's a huge problem.

Starting point is 00:26:38 So it's, you know, between the financial issues that people are struggling with, that's one thing. But then also just not having the access or ownership to, you know, for the wildlife in those spaces. So, I mean, that's a big part of what our organization, Global Conservation Corps, is focused on now. And we can talk about that a little bit later. Inspired by Anton, actually, our main ranger in the film. But unless you're looking towards that long-term vision of changing the way people are getting access and benefiting from those areas, it's going to be a constant battle. And you're just going to be buying time with rangers on the ground, trying to protect this wildlife. And so

Starting point is 00:27:15 they're doing incredibly important work that's extremely dangerous right now, but we needed to do more to support that work by creating that access and benefit to these communities so that they're not just on the fence kind of looking at it like, oh, there's a wall here. Someone else has it. Well, you also have the issue that, I mean, you guys were highlighting it, how dangerous it is to people in their families where these guys will come and threaten your family. We'll get to, I mean, what happened to Anton's a perfect example of that, unfortunately. like you know they they're you want to talk about having no morals they they don't care they will do what they do and so that it has created naturally and understandably a culture of fear among many of the communities just getting involved in any of it at all because they don't

Starting point is 00:27:59 want people coming after them and i think one of the one of the red flag things that you pointed out in your documentary is that the dutch who's training everybody there, what are their names? Ruben and Marion. Okay. So they were talking about how the level of candidate that they used to get trying out for this in 2008, they had way more to choose from and higher level candidates because more people wanted to do it and now that the posing wars have happened and people have seen the death and destruction fewer people want to do it and so the talent level has dwindled so when they put the people through this i'm just going to keep calling it like their buds like training which

Starting point is 00:28:38 is pretty intense stuff you know fewer guys are making it is there a way to turn that around maybe the better question is where are the police and where's the government on this to help shut this stuff down? Yeah, do you want to take that or that? I could always add more. Yeah, I will check the training part. Maybe, John, you can

Starting point is 00:28:59 go on with the government and the police. So, what happened is back then, like as John said, people were living in those areas where they were asked to move out and they started putting up fences in a way of trying to save those wildlife because we as humans, we've got this tendency that if we we have access to something then we just gonna misuse it and we finish it

Starting point is 00:29:31 and back then you know we had people those that knew what a rhino is and what they had interest it's the reason why we had good quality rangers like Anton because they were exposed to such. And I was lucky to have visited my granny and a couple of guys. But because of those fences, people started losing interest because they didn't have access to those. And if you go to schools and you ask the kids, when you grow up, what do you want to be?

Starting point is 00:30:10 They will always be like, I want to be a doctor. I want to be a lawyer. Because now they feel excluded. You know, they can't talk more about conservation because they've got no idea what a rhino is, what an elephant is, what a rhino is. So, and because of that, you're most likely to find people, those who were, when they were at school, they wanted to do certain careers and they failed. Now you've got this opportunity, you're looking for rangers and people be like ah let me go and give it a try you know it's it's not something that it's coming from within

Starting point is 00:30:52 but you're just seeing a gap and and want to give it a try and you know you you you might find that some day because of the training you know it's it know, they made it a little bit difficult to get the right people on the ground. But because, you know, people are stranded out there looking for work and they can't, you know, they try and make sure that they cope with that exercise up until to the end. But you find that that person, he wasn't born to be a ranger. It was something else. But because, you know, it didn't work out. Now there is a gap year and they come in and start working as a ranger. And I want to put it on record that it's something that made it a little bit worse because we had people, those who were not born to be rangers, but we had them on the system because they were looking for work

Starting point is 00:31:59 and they couldn't find it and there was a gap. We were looking for rangers. And they often get to turn because that wasn't their passion so they were easy to to be turned because we we sort of like took uh poachers out and we put them into the system and they get to operate and you know wearing that name of being a ranger but they're not ranger since you might have heard we had a few cases where rangers were arrested yes corruption right we will say rangers were arrested but those were not rangers we just took without knowing we just took poachers out from the communities and put them into the system. And it was all because of work challenges that people are facing out there

Starting point is 00:32:49 because, you know, unemployment rate is very high. Yeah. And, you know, with corruption, they're not for the purpose of protecting, but they were looking for money. And obviously if they're getting approached, then they will be quick to say that, okay, I will do it, and of which they're doing it. What about not just corruption, but like a layer farther where guys join and become rangers for the right reasons? They're doing it. They're good at their job.

Starting point is 00:33:17 And then someone comes, puts a gun in their family's face and says, you're going to give me the information I need and turn on your ranger friends or I'm going to kill all you motherfuckers. Does that happen too, where rangers get turned not through monetary means but through literal horrible blackmail? Yes, it does happen like that because what they do is they will approach you in a good mannered way. But if you say no, obviously you know that these are bad guys. Obviously you might go and report such.

Starting point is 00:33:55 Then that's where the threat comes in to say that, okay, either you work with us or you're gone. Because they know that you're going to expose them. So they'll put pressure on you to say that this is what we want you to do or else this is what's going to happen and uh there is a few of those that uh did it because of the pressure uh wanting to save their families because these uh guys you know they they keep their promises if they say that this is what we're going to do and they're going to do it. So some, they're doing it under pressure, but some, they're doing it because they want money.

Starting point is 00:34:38 Have you had friends who served in various capacities as rangers who ended up turning the wrong way? Yes, we had a couple of rangers at Timbavati, they were good rangers but you know somehow they've turned into something else and we we we we started losing rhinos and bat gyros because they were approached and they they fell for it they said okay no it's fine they started helping poachers and you will see by how they were operating that poachers come to just walk from wherever and to come and shoot the rhino here and out without us picking up as because they've got information of what about and all that.

Starting point is 00:35:26 Absolutely. Oh, yeah, go ahead. I was going to say they make it easy because all they say is all you have to do, it's like it's not a big deal. You just tell us when your patrol is going through or let us know where the rhino is. So it seems very low pressure. You don't have to see the eagle. Yeah, exactly.

Starting point is 00:35:44 And then we'll give you a little bit of money, and that's how a lot of times guys start going in more and more, and the next thing you know, you're pretty much working full-time for these poaching syndicates. Yeah, the stakes in this are so high because you're talking about there's a death on the other end of it. It reminds me in a way of a much harder scenario than my friend Paul Rosalie deals with in the Amazon where he's dealing with the same thing. But he's dealing with guys who are cutting down trees to make a living and he goes and makes friends with them.

Starting point is 00:36:15 And all it is to them is they're trying to make a living. It's not like – the loggers – I'm not talking about the gold miners for people out there checking this. Like the loggers, it's not sinister. They're being paid by wherever countries are paying them to do it but like they're making a living and all paul has to do is say how much do you make if we could pay if we could come up and pay you a little more would you join us and they're like yeah you know but in this case when guys are making a living protecting the animals and you're dealing with the actual like mafia on the other side of it who's got a gun on the other end and says they're gonna pay you you know and then an animal dies

Starting point is 00:36:52 it's not like you know you lose a acre of trees you can figure that out you lose 11 000 acres that's a problem but like you know you lose every rhino we lose with the gestation periods that these things have you know it's hard and hard. And it's like, you get closer and closer to that, wherever that D-Day clock is, and it's a problem. But the second part of my question, you were going to, I believe, answer, John, which had to do with where is the government and law enforcement in this stuff and helping to crack down on these guys who are running these syndicates? Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, because of these incentives, and the size of these syndicates, there's so many corrupt people at. Yeah. I mean, unfortunately, because of these incentives and the size of these

Starting point is 00:37:26 syndicates, there's so many corrupt people at every level. I mean, Orlatt was just talking about rangers and often, I mean, I think it was maybe your warden, Mr. Pierce, he was talking about working at Sabi, which is another game reserve. And I think one of their best rangers there, I don't know when this was, but I just remember him telling me this story. One of their best Rangers there ended up turning and becoming a poacher. And I think he like ended up getting arrested and came back in and poached multiple times. And they just kept catching him.

Starting point is 00:37:56 And that, you know, it's just heartbreaking. I think as someone that's like, this is someone who's on your team, someone who has, you know, all these amazing talents and is kind of

Starting point is 00:38:06 working their way up the chain. And then to find out that they end up turning and, you know, trying to make an extra buck by poaching, it's pretty heartbreaking. So the corruption isn't just there, but it's also in the government, in other aspects of law enforcement. Guys, if you're not following me on Instagram, you can get me at Julian Dory Podcast or also on my personal page at Julian D. Dory. Those links are in the description below. You can also follow me on X at Julian D. Dory.

Starting point is 00:38:36 That link is in the description below. And as always, please smash that subscribe button if you haven't already and hit that like button on the video. It is a huge, huge help. I appreciate all of you who have been subbing and all of you who are liking all these videos. Thank you. There's a guy that I can't remember his name now. Maybe you'll remember it or a lot, but he was basically being groomed to take over all of the rangers at Kruger National Park.

Starting point is 00:38:58 He was, I think, a regional ranger at the time, which there's four regions. It's kind of broken up into four regions. And then within those, there's these smaller sections and then there's the smaller units within those. But he was a regional ranger getting ready to be the top ranger. And one of his rangers that were, was directly under him had suspected that something was not right. You know, the, these guys would get sent off in a certain area to patrol and then a rhino would be poached kind of somewhere else and i don't know exactly how he realized something was happening but he suspected that his boss this regional ranger was maybe up to some up to no good so i think what happened was one day he basically told these guys to go off somewhere else and then you know they were going, moving into,

Starting point is 00:39:45 to do something a little nefarious. And this guy's, he was like, you know what, let's take the team and just kind of circle back around and see what's going on over here. So they basically walked out of the bush and caught him red-handed, shot a rhino. There was a, I believe it was a wildlife vet. Yeah. There was a wildlife vet with them so that they could, I think what they were doing was like faking that it was tranked maybe. And then they would cut the horn off, get out of there, hide it, and then sell it off down the line. So he basically walked out with the team and was like, hey, what's going on here? And they tried to play it off like, oh, no.

Starting point is 00:40:20 Oh, my God. He was going to be the top dog. Yeah, he was going to be the top dog. Yeah, he was going to be the top dog. So if that guy who's been groomed for years to take over could be corrupted, it's just, I don't know. I don't know how you do it, Orlatt, knowing that these guys that are working with you could turn. But it's, yeah, it's not an easy situation.

Starting point is 00:40:43 I mean, it's very similar in my mind to what's going on in Mexico with the like narco trafficking and that side of things where government officials are being influenced, law enforcement's being influenced at every level. So it just makes it really tough. And I think that's what makes it even more important that we need to really work with the youth and kind of change that narrative for the future generations. Because, you know, like you were saying, who wants to be a ranger if you're going to get put in this situation where, like Anton, your life is going to be threatened and, you know, you're not making that much money. Maybe you don't really care that much about the wildlife. So it's going to be so much easier to shift you in the wrong direction. So a lot of what we're focused on now is, you now is getting these kids out into the reserves for the first time. Like four out of five kids around Kruger National Park have not seen wildlife,

Starting point is 00:41:33 even though they've seen a rhino or a lion, even though they live right there. So it's like that blew my mind when I got involved on this project and started learning about the situation because it's so complex. I mean, there's so many levels to it. But just the fact that people that are living right there haven't seen a rhino, haven't seen a lion, haven't seen an elephant in person. And so taking kids out on their first game drive is a pretty incredible experience where you like see their faces light up and they're like, oh, wow, this is so cool. So it's like, you know, you're not going to protect something if you don't see it and know it and love it. And that's really where I think it

Starting point is 00:42:08 starts. Yeah. When I was down in the Amazon, I was there with my friend, Trevor Little, who is the ground commander every day for VetPol in Africa. And, you know, that was the one, one of the things he was talking about is how special it is to bring anyone out there. Right. And it's crazy to him that, like you were just pointing out, I didn't realize it was that many though, like four and five, that so many people who live within the country haven't even had a chance to see this stuff. And so when they can help make that happen, that's really cool. But also on a global scale, I mean, we know how things work.

Starting point is 00:42:43 You're a documentary filmmaker. You try to make the film so that you can bring it home for people to see it because it's so important to see. But it's like if something's not in our backyard, same deal. Like see no evil, hear no evil, someone else will figure it out. And, you know, one of the things Trevor, and I know Ryan's talked about this a ton, that's huge, is like trying to figure out how to get people from all over the world, more access to be able to come and see this, to feel like they have a sense of duty to help support guys like Orlatt and Tim Bavati to do what you do.

Starting point is 00:43:15 And also in the process, maybe not maybe, but like make more financial incentives so that Rangers who join are in a better position financially. Now, that doesn't stop the man in a black hat from coming to your door with a gun and putting it to your family's face. That's another issue. But you know what I mean. Like if you could at least start with some of the economic incentives and make it a little bit more of a world project, I guess that's what the royal family is trying to do, which is pretty cool. You know, I think that would make a huge difference. Yeah, for sure. And I mean, you're right, the incentives for the rangers to do their job and support their families are not very good. And that's, that's a huge problem. It's kind of a part of our social impact campaign is working with partners like the thin green line foundation. And that's a huge problem. It's kind of a part of our social impact campaign is working

Starting point is 00:44:06 with partners like the Thin Green Line Foundation and the International Ranger Federation, Game Rangers Association Africa to help influence governments on a bigger level so that they see the value of rangers and put them more online with other frontline workers like police and fire, military, because they're doing that kind of work, but they're oftentimes not really getting paid well, don't have any kind of health insurance, life insurance. Oftentimes they don't really have good boots or gear or anything like that. The training is low. So we really need to be taking better care of them if we expect them to go out there,

Starting point is 00:44:44 risk their lives for not only just wildlife in that space, but I mean, everything is interconnected. So we're benefiting from what Orlat's doing in South Africa, protecting the wildlife there. Here, just like people within the jungle keepers in the Amazon. That's right. I mean, the Amazon is like the lungs of our planet. Yes. in the Amazon. I mean, the Amazon is like the lungs of our planet. So, you know, it is in our, maybe not in our backyard and we can't really see it, but it's affecting us whether we realize it or not. So we need to find ways to get people involved, you know, come to the Timbavati,

Starting point is 00:45:17 meet the rangers. I mean, when you meet Orlato Leda, who's operating the cameras right now. Doing an amazing job. I'm like watching the red light up over here. You're doing an incredible job. So thank you. But yeah, it just really connects you more to the story. And I encourage people, if you go on like a safari or something and you see a ranger, like go up to them and say hi. Thank you for what you're doing. Thank you for your service.

Starting point is 00:45:39 We say that to our military. But, you know, these men and women are risking their lives the same for all of our benefit by protecting these ecosystems so yeah super important can you cut i know you have the mouse there on the documentary can you cut i'm trying to remember what that time step i think it was 102 00 where you where they're walking out during the day i want people to see this what can just happen on there. Which part are you thinking? One hour and two minutes. Cut to 102. I'm a little blind.

Starting point is 00:46:12 It says 108, 107, 102. A little farther, a little farther. Yeah, cut right here. And then let me turn this mic on so later this is the part we'll hit camera. You're on it. There you go. Look at you. Head of the game. You got to teach Alessi how to do some of that he's gonna kill me for saying unless

Starting point is 00:46:29 he does an amazing job you want me to start here yeah let's play it right so yeah this this is anton kind of leaving his home after a long deployment and yeah we'll let you see how it develops here so i'm ready to see him crying again when when i come back home I think it's fast speed right now so now they're out that's what we got there badass patrol in the meantime they have already started shaking that's what we got there badass she gots a working in the middle of the night a lot of the times too

Starting point is 00:47:23 now this is a full moon night which is a dangerous poaching night right because it's lit yeah traditionally i think in the early days the full moon that's which is a dangerous poaching night, right? Because it's lit. Yeah, traditionally, I think in the early days, the full moon, that's when the poachers went out. But they start changing their tactics as the rangers change tactics. He's going to turn to daybreak. So now like the sun's up, it should be like, okay, maybe we can relax. Is that your lot? Yes. Yeah, that's me.

Starting point is 00:48:03 Yeah. Is that your lot? Yes. I remember this day like as in yesterday. Alright so for people listening, they're looking through the brush right now. I'm trying not to talk because I want people to enjoy this who are watching. Hey! Hey! In the morning these guys were shooting back at us. You know, I don't know what it was, a revolver or 9mm. They were shooting at us. So, I was, even now, I'm still nervous, you know. For me, I'm still thirsty.

Starting point is 00:49:19 This is not enough for me. So, they got them? Yeah. The guys are in the back. We got nothing to say. All right, let's pause it right there. I don't want people to see this. Boom. All right, so, and great aim, by the way.

Starting point is 00:49:38 I know it's a little awkward over there. We're doing this live today, people. But that's so intense because, like, you guys are walking on this beautiful, for people who didn't get to see that and were just listening, you're walking on this beautiful open day. You just got through a full night moon, no problems. And then what happened? Did these guys, they started shooting first?

Starting point is 00:49:57 They saw you? Yes. What happened that day, we had a report that there was a fence cut at night. There was an alarm. So we had to respond to that, bearing in mind that we were not supposed to use lights because that was going to give away our presence, that we were responding to that. So we had to move silently in the darkness, hoping that we will bump into them

Starting point is 00:50:31 because what they do is they often walk in those animal paths at night. As you will have seen on that clip, we were looking, hoping to see the tracks. But unfortunately we didn't see anything, and we couldn't go back to the base because the guys were out there. So we had to be out, you know, on a listening post that if ever a gunshot goes off, then we know where the guys are so that we can quickly respond to that and um nothing happened at

Starting point is 00:51:07 night uh which means the guys didn't uh get the rhinos they were walking that and on that darkness and we were out there without them knowing and early in the morning we picked up tracks and as we were walking the guys saw us because we were staring at the tricks while scanning around and they happened to see us then they started shooting at us and luckily we dived and we started shooting back at them and yeah we ended up arresting them and it was It was a scary feeling to be shot at, but it's something that we expected. We anticipated that this is what's going to happen because these guys, whenever they see us, they won't just smile at us and say that we're here. They will fight, and we've got to make sure that we survive in those kind of attacks, which demands a lot of training and sacrifices because now we're talking about life and death situation. to survive on that attack and we arrested them as you saw on that clip. So it's not something simple, I mean, to

Starting point is 00:52:32 take these guys up until you find them or to be a ranger if I may call it that way. Because you know that when you're out there, you're always exposed to death. Either from the animals that you're trying to protect or from these well-armed poachers. So, but we're always going out there and coming back with the training that we have received. And because what's going on in our minds is that if we're not there,

Starting point is 00:53:05 if we're not doing it, then who is going to do it? It can only be us doing it. And it's the reason why the Rangers, where there is a gunshot, that's where we want to go. You might have seen there, it was in the darkness. We couldn't see them, but we were waiting for them that if ever they fire a shot, then they've given us our, I mean, their position, and that's where we were quickly going to go.

Starting point is 00:53:31 Now, how do you, so it was just you and Anton out there that day when they shot? Yes, yes, affirmative. And there were two of them, is that correct, total? There were three of them. So one of them got away? Yes, one escaped. Now, question note, imagine there's even just two of them. So one of them got away? Yes, one escaped. Now, question note. Imagine there's even just two of them for a second, not even three.

Starting point is 00:53:50 And there's two of you. And you're out in the middle of the bush, out in the middle of nowhere for all intents and purposes. And they're armed and you're armed. How did you arrest them? It goes with the training that we we have received so we we more advanced to what these guys are having but even though you know each and every day day day trying and you know to be better than yesterday but uh for for us because we have been doing it for for a little while and you know it's something that we've always wanted to do it it looks easy but it's it's not something easy i can tell you it's

Starting point is 00:54:32 it's very difficult and especially if somebody's firing at you i didn't think it was easy just to be clear you've got that out there you've got to be you've got to be that brave i mean to can respond to such situation otherwise if you're not uh strong enough you you're most likely to kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kwa hivyo kutoka kwa hivyo kwa hivyo kwa hivyo kwa h If you have decided that this is what I'm going to do and you can do it, you can do it without you knowing or without you realizing how difficult it is. Only after, then you will question yourself, how did that happen? How did we do it? But when you are in the middle of it, then your body, the only thing that you can do is to control your your your your your

Starting point is 00:55:26 body and you once you have decided that this is what i'm doing and you you do it and it looks easy but yeah i can tell you it does not look easy at all i just want to be very clear about that it looks very complicated and i mean actually my next question is going to make it sound even way harder, but how much land at Timbavati in particularly, how much land is your team able to cover? Like how much are you responsible for being a ranger on approximately? Timbavati, it's huge. And, you know, we've got a very limited manpower in in there but um what is it 54 000 hectares 54 000 yeah it's about over a hundred thousand acres that's a lot and the team i think the team there is varied between what like 20 and 40 depending on what year and how many so we got we got a phrase

Starting point is 00:56:22 here in america called needle in a haystack yeah exactly what you're doing i mean kruger national park is four million acres and they have i think 700 rangers right now i don't know if that's right so and you have to you can't have them all on duty at the same time people have to go home yeah go on leave and so you know you think about that you're rotating them and exactly it's like needle in a haystack to run into these poachers is really difficult. So you're really, you know, you're looking for information, you're looking for a break in the fence, you're looking for footprints, trying to catch somebody gunshot. But it's extremely difficult to protect these giant spaces. And that's why, I mean, I think Kruger National Park in the last 10, 12 years has lost over 10,000 rhinos with, you know, with that ranger corps trying to do the work.

Starting point is 00:57:08 And then you throw corruption in there and all these other things. It's extremely difficult. And, I mean, I think this is why we need other strategies and other ways to attack this problem than just the rangers because they can buy us time. They can slow things down, but, and we absolutely need them. I think sometimes – It's an impossible job, though. Yeah. But sometimes you hear people say, we should just direct all of that funding to these other projects that are more long-term, which we need.

Starting point is 00:57:36 We definitely need. But if you take the rangers out of there, if you take the training that Orlott's gotten out of there, you take the guns out of there then these this wildlife is going to be gone within a few weeks or months you know if you if everyone just walked off how long do you think it would take so it'd be a it'd be fishing in a barrel with dynamite yeah exactly so it's not i don't think it's either or we need the rangers we need them well trained and equipped we need more i mean one of the the goals, there's a UN global initiative to protect 30% of the planet by 2030. And to do that, we need about 1.25 million rangers to effectively manage that amount of land. Oh, so this is, if I'm understanding correctly, this is specifically

Starting point is 00:58:18 for conservation as it pertains to like physical species. Yeah. And just like a land mass. So like 30% of the planet. If we were able, if we were protecting that amount, including oceans, we would need about 1.25 million rangers. And right now I think we have between 250 and 300,000. And we want to add more land to the percentage that we're currently protecting.

Starting point is 00:58:41 And we don't even have enough rangers to, to effectively manage that. So huge problem to to develop that next generation and really create the incentives and the training and all these things to make it a job that people want to do are attracted to and then also can do it efficiently and as safely as possible well when i was spending time with trevor down there in south america i got to get up to date on all some of the, all the amazing technology they are now using to help do their job because it's just like you,

Starting point is 00:59:11 obviously they're protecting a whole lot of land as well. Needle in a haystack, same deal. It's, it's an, it's an incredibly difficult job, but what at Timbavati, do you guys have,

Starting point is 00:59:23 are you utilizing drones or other technology like that to help you do what you do? Or if not, what do you guys need to be able to get those resources and how can we help the audience? Yeah, it's a good one. Technology is something that we would love to have, especially drones and some other equipments, because you will see on the clip there was a false alarm where one of the landowners reported what it sounded like as a gunshot, but it wasn't. Now, come to think of the deployment. You take rangers from where you thought something was going to happen.

Starting point is 01:00:04 Now you send them to where you feel like something has happened, only to find that it's elephants. So, but if you had a drone, you will just fly a drone and scan the area and, okay, this is an animal, elephant's activities, and it saves you time. And, you know, rather than driving up and down, you know, you sort of like Changing the whole plan now you focusing on where you believe that something might have happened only to find that it was elephants so but if you have something like drones or Camera traps where you you you have those cameras where you feel like it's hot spots.

Starting point is 01:00:49 You can be able to detect if guys are coming in and all that. That will help a lot. But obviously, you need rangers because a camera trap can't apprehend. It can only detect the guys as they walk in. Soon, soon. They're working on the robots now. We'll have robot rangers. Now you want rangers to respond to that detection that you might have picked up.

Starting point is 01:01:19 And sometimes you find that the guys, by luck, they walk behind the camera trap without them knowing that there is a camera trap. You need Rangers to go and cover that area. So Rangers are always going to be important in this game. But I wanted to go back to what Jonas said, incentivizing, I mean, Rangers, you know, that boosted their morale to say that like we have been doing since uh but if that happens you know it's sort of like uh and place as an injection to say that guys let us do more because you know we we know that there is a support coming from abroad uh from what we're doing and you know we we're not alone in this fight and

Starting point is 01:02:05 there are people watching us and yeah let us keep on doing what we're doing hopefully something is going to happen this fight we're going to win it yeah and and it's it's it's an uphill battle unfortunately as we are pointing out today but one other thing on the technology before we move off that do you guys have any tracking devices like do you have any collars or like they're going to start getting towards chips now as well to put in animals to track them or you still don't have that as well um unfortunately we we don't have them um at jimba wadji we we still have um a healthy population of rhino which it was going to make it difficult, I mean, to can track each and every rhino movement of where they are.

Starting point is 01:02:51 But, yeah, we believe that if we can get technology that can support us, you know, equipment-wise, then that will be very much helpful for us, I mean, to can do much better than we're doing now, even though I understand we're grinding very hard. Because of the manpower that we're having in Timbavati now, we've got to go that extra mile, not only in Timbavati, I mean, worldwide, like as John has given us the state, we don't have enough rangers. Kwa hivyo, tunafuwa kutoka kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa k that extra mile and that makes it difficult for us to can spend time with our families we've got

Starting point is 01:03:46 very limited time i mean to spend with our families than spending out there because you feel like what are your deployments right now just so people get a sense of how many days you are away from your family um it's it's 21 days in uh seven days uh off but you you you sometimes don't even finish that seven days off because something is happening back there and there is always shortage of manpower you you can always go back and and assist year and day because the pressure is there i can't remember if it was you or or anton in the documentary but there was like a part where one of you was saying goodbye to your little baby son and you were 28 that was anton yeah

Starting point is 01:04:25 at that time he's like in 28 days i'm gonna come back and like when they're that young they don't remember so it's like he's gonna have to cry again and try to figure out who i am yeah that really drove that home for me because it you know we talk about it here with our military and it's i mean you guys are doing a form of the military over there you know these you're calling it what it is it's a deployment that's That's crazy, man. Yeah, it differs. Sometimes you will go 28. Sometimes you will go 21. We sort of like changing it because we don't want these guys to know how we operate the routine.

Starting point is 01:04:59 Before they know that you're going to go after 28, then you're at home on 21. So that they don't target you. But if you're going to stick on 21 or 28, then, you know, obviously they will start knowing that when are you going to be coming home and when are you going out and all that. It's like a huge intel game. Yeah, it's a constant arms race.

Starting point is 01:05:23 I mean, you were saying earlier, you know, full moon. They used to call that poacher's moon. But because the Rangers started to say, oh, hey, most of this poaching is happening when the full moon is, put a little extra effort on those knights. Then the poachers change their tactics and they start going out at different times and avoiding that. So it's always, you know, as soon as there's a new technology, they're trying to combat it. And it's basically an arms race. Well, it's basically an arms race. Well, it's amazing that you guys are doing it with, like, no technology on your end.

Starting point is 01:05:53 And I know Vet Paul is, like, just getting a lot of that, but that makes such a difference. So I don't know. Prince William, look it up, my guy. You know, I think there's a nice little – what's that, the Duchy of Cornwall? Got a little bit of money in that thing? I don't know, my guy. But anyway, so – No, they've been super supportive. I can't say enough good things about them. I can tell. Let me be the asshole podcaster. You guys are on the right side of history here.

Starting point is 01:06:15 But the guy we keep talking about today, obviously, is Anton. I mentioned him throughout this conversation. Could we actually start with you on this john you know when was the first time you met him and and what what was what made him different because he obviously has turned into this legendary character but he dedicated his life to this stuff and ended up giving his life for it yeah absolutely i mean i this is going back to when we were talking about the film and how I got involved. We went on a shoot in 2018. It was a two week shoot. We had a little bit of money, used some of his story. Because I think at that time, we already had like a decent chunk of Anton's story for the film. But we needed more to really create a narrative and see what he's doing out there with his team. So it was the second half

Starting point is 01:07:16 of that trip. And I remember, I believe Orlatt was there and Federic Ndlovu, who's another amazing ranger at the Temavadi, went out with Anton. And he was just the most generous, kind-hearted, kind of soft-spoken guy that I've ever met. But you could tell within that he had so much passion for protecting the wildlife, rhinos, everything. And he was dedicated. I mean, he was willing to stand in front of a bullet, and he would say that to save a rhino. And so I think, you know, this trip, everyone thinks like, Africa, I get to go like on these safaris, see all this incredible wildlife, which I got to do some of that on top of the crazy filming.

Starting point is 01:07:56 And to see the wildlife was epic. I mean, getting to see a rhino for the first time, I don't know why I love giraffes, just those long necks, goofy animals, but I love those things. And so coming back after this trip i mean i think the thing that really stuck with me and also reinforced the direction that we wanted to take this film was meeting anton and getting to be out there with him and seeing how much he loves for this because even if you don't care about conservation you see what these men and women are doing out there and you connect to their story it's kind of infectious and it makes you

Starting point is 01:08:28 want to follow your purpose and do your thing and support them and what they're doing and anton just had that incredible ability to not only do the work but to communicate and connect with you on a one-on-one level and so yeah that was that was the first time i met him and i think taking that back to atlanta when we were digging into the film, it just reaffirmed that we didn't want this to be your typical kind of conservation film that's like, oh, here's a topic and here's all these different angles, investigative journalism, which I love some of those films too. But I wanted to really make this about the human aspect of it

Starting point is 01:09:02 and trying to get into their lives a bit and like, you know, seeing him go home and talk about being away from the family and, and kind of seeing the full human side and that connection between people that are trying to do this type of work. So yeah, he's just, he's an amazing human being. And, you know, he's, he, I think he won a Rhino, what did they call it? A Rhino award back in 2016 for his work work because he was just such an incredible ranger. A wild, alive. Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 01:09:30 Okay. And. First male ranger of the year. First male ranger of the year. First male ranger of the year. Yeah. Got it. Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 01:09:37 So, I mean, he was just like, you know, and it wasn't because he wanted to get these awards. He's just so passionate about it. Yeah, he did what he did. He knew like every bird, every tree, all the wildlife. I mean, you could drive out there with him and he would just point to things. He'd be like, oh, this is this bird. And it usually comes in this time of year. And that's that kind of tree that they're feeding off of.

Starting point is 01:09:59 And it's because of this kind of soil. I mean, like the depth of knowledge is insane. He wasn't just a security guard. You know, he cared so much about this place. And he even told me prior to becoming a ranger, he couldn't really speak any English. And he trained with Ruben, who's in the film doing the ranger selection. Yeah. He trained with him originally.

Starting point is 01:10:18 So he was starting to teach him English. But he said what really got him over the line was he started becoming obsessed with learning birds and bird calls. And he got this book from someone that was, I think, a student that was studying at the Timbavati. He got their bird book and he started learning all the birds and it was all in English. So it forced him to learn the English as he was learning the birds. And through that and some work with Reuben, he really started to develop. I mean, he could speak amazingly well. He would always be like, oh, sorry, you know, it's not great at English. I'm like, Anton, I think you could speak more eloquently than I can. his character and his ability to lead their team in this type of pressure. And with these types of consequences,

Starting point is 01:11:14 just being someone that can lead from the front and also do it with such a kind heart. I think, Orla, you were telling me, like, Anton, he would constantly be forgiving people that were out, you know, either just not doing things right or out to get him. I mean, you could talk about him more than I can since you were so close to him. But, yeah, just an amazing human. Did you grow up with him? Did I hear that at the beginning?

Starting point is 01:11:34 No, not really. I didn't grow up with him. Anthony was a bit older than me. So, yeah, but I spent most of my 15 years, well, not 15, sorry, but 14 years of my career under his leadership. So Anton, he was that amazing somebody. Not very selfish, but he wanted to see someone progressing in life. So Antoni will share his knowledge to anyone. He wanted to see everybody progressing in life.

Starting point is 01:12:13 And he was that type of a person that even if you have done wrong in him, he will still forgive you for that. And he helped a lot of people. Even those that they turned against him he will still see good in them you did say he's the guy who came and got you out of the mines and brought you this way yes yes he saw something you yeah he really helped a lot of people so he was having that heart and I've been skinning around and I'm struggling to find somebody like Anton.

Starting point is 01:12:53 Anton, he was that unique person. I don't think you really replaced someone like that. It was difficult for me and for the team as well, I mean, to take what happened. It was a huge loss for us after so many years. We have been the best at Timbawati because of Anton. His leadership was something else. So even today he's gone, but we still feel his presence because of what he taught us, what he left with us. I mean, we can still do well as if he's there because he was that kind of a guy who will show you the right direction. And he always wanted to see us do good.

Starting point is 01:13:40 And hence we're following those footsteps even today to say that this is what Anton Olev wanted to do and let us do it that way. Because he showed us, he paved the way for us. It's up to us now to finish what he started. What was the initial thing that got Anton into this? Was this like a childhood endeavor with him and the relationship with, you know, the creatures of the land? Or was this something he noticed as he got older that they were being killed and wanted to get involved? What was the story there? I think it was kind of similar to yours, wasn't it? Or a lot? I'm trying to remember because I know he's told me a couple of times, maybe later, she can kind of chime in over this.

Starting point is 01:14:25 But I think it was a family relative that got him connected to the Timavati, possibly, as kind of a work doing similar to what Orlatt was doing, you know, building roads, construction within Timavati, just kind of a labor job. And I think he had always wanted to be a soldier is what he told me. Like originally he saw, yeah, military, the soldiers. And I think he just, you know, that regimented, you know, duty for your country and things like that. So that was something he was always drawn to. And I don't think he was able to go into that work, that line of work.

Starting point is 01:15:04 And so when he had this opportunity, he was doing to go into that work that line of work and so when he had this opportunity he was doing this work at the timbavati and he started seeing the rangers almost just like what orla was saying you know it's like what are these guys doing like they're going out there they've got their guns they're doing their patrols very you know had a lot of similarities with military and then there was an opportunity for some new rangers to come in and they ran a selection course. And I think the warden at the time was like, Hey, Anton, like you should try it. You know, if you, if you're interested, you should try out for this selection. And I remember he told me the day that he did his

Starting point is 01:15:35 selection, there might've been, I think there were quite a few people, 50, a hundred people trying out for this. And it was like a kind of a last minute call. All these people come to the Timavati and I forget how many kilometers they had to run, but say it was like 10 kilometers. And they basically just said, all right, you guys are going to get ready, take off, you know, run 10 kilometers. And, you know, I don't know the first, so many people who can make it will kind of move on to the next round. And I think he started running and he just like realized that he was like doing pretty well. And he got, I started running and he just like realized that he was like doing pretty well. And he got, I don't think he finished first, but he was like in the top tier and a lot of these guys just dropped out, didn't, didn't even finish it. And from there,

Starting point is 01:16:14 he just started doing the selection training and going through it. And, uh, it was just something that connected with him and he was just really good at it. So I think he always had a bit of a heart for nature and wildlife, but it was that drive to become a soldier that got him really connected with wanting to be a ranger. And then as he started developing and taking that training and learning about wildlife and conservation, I think it really kindled something inside of him that was maybe already there because like I was saying earlier I mean he became so passionate that he learned everything about all the different flora and fauna within the national park I mean he could identify any bird and I think there's close to a thousand species in southern Africa so it's like pretty incredible the the level of knowledge he had. And so that drive to learn and really work to protect nature became a calling for him.

Starting point is 01:17:11 And he even says that in the film, you know, being a ranger is a calling from God for this work that he wanted to do. And you could really, I mean, going back to him and that connection that he had or that I had with him when I first met him, it's like that passion was evident. It wasn't just the military or soldier side or being a security guard. It was a true passion and dedication to nature and protecting it. Yeah, to add on that, John, I think Antoine had this in him. It's just that when he said he wanted to be a soldier, he didn't realize that he was meant to be that field ranger.

Starting point is 01:17:55 And it's the reason why he didn't make it in that department, because it wasn't his, but his one was still on its way and so you can see that he excelled on that uh field ranging uh department when he started joining uh and you know in every angle he was he was at his best so you could tell that uh this thing of him being a soldier at first, it wasn't for him. But he was meant to be a dead field ranger. Wow. Well, I don't want to show the way you guys did it in the documentary on this podcast for what happened to him.

Starting point is 01:18:40 I want people to go see that because it's not like you were there when it did. But from an artistic standpoint, that was very moving how you guys explain what went down. But can we at least tell that story so that people can understand how much this really comes home? Because it made me sick not just that they killed him, but that he wasn't the only target there. There was like a sadistic manipulation. And then after they were getting him, you know, they weren't stopping. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:19:12 Yeah. And I mean, a little more background behind it. You know, we, I got stuck there in 2020 during COVID. I literally landed in South Africa, the last flight out of Atlanta. And the whole idea was, you know, I was going to work on Rhino Man, try to flesh it out more. And I quit my job. The nonprofit was buying the film out. And then COVID happened and kind of took us down a whole other path and long story. But I spent nine months there and I got to spend a lot of time with Orlott and the team and Anton. And, you know, I'd already built a little bit of a

Starting point is 01:19:44 connection there through the first shoot and working and staying a little bit in touch. But really got to become close with Anton on this trip. And he was constantly communicating with me when I was back in Atlanta. And I was, like, updating him on the film. He was telling me what was going on at Timbavati. And I would always be like, hey, Anton, can we, you know, some of the guys there, can they come out and rerecord something? I'm like, sorry, I'm going to torture you again.

Starting point is 01:20:10 One millionth time. Are you sure? You're getting, or it's not you guys? I mean, there was a film guy getting hit in the ground, hitting the deck when bullets were fired. You guys are calm as hell. He's like, holy shit. Yeah, I mean, every time we were out there and and we shot basically a

Starting point is 01:20:26 whole other film during 2020 that we put on the side because rhinoman ended up being becoming the main project but every time i was out with these guys i was like hey i'm gonna make you do this again can we do this and and they're like no no it's like we want you to be here we want we want to get this message out so that was that was incredible but this was what 2022 the beginning of 2022 and the film was finally we were like getting to the point where we had this amazing score that simone wilson this composer put together for us uh we had a color grade we were finishing up some of the sound mixing and i was communicating a little bit with anton because we were getting close this poster by marcel van lewitt he created it and i remember i think it

Starting point is 01:21:10 was pretty close to this time i sent it to him i was like hey here's the the poster that we created yeah we got a copy of it right here right here if we can throw the camera on me for one second later yeah for the cam and marcel actually i think he's done some stuff with vet pa and and ryan but that's anton yeah that's anton in the middle and a couple of black rhinos. And just this, I don't know, it just draws you in. And it's got this kind of surrealist look to it. It's incredible art. It's very cool.

Starting point is 01:21:35 But I sent that to Anton. I was like, hey, here's the poster. It's finally coming together. And he sent me this awesome message. He's like, John, I'm just so proud to be a part of this project. And this awesome message. He's like, John, I'm just so proud to be a part of this project, and this is incredible. And I forwarded that on to Marcel because he's such an amazing guy too. And him and his wife, Ashley, they're pretty incredible

Starting point is 01:21:53 and just super supportive of this project. Wait, which one was Marcel again? I'm sorry. He's this amazing artist, and so he's the one that created that poster. But I think it was the next message I got from Anton. I'd sent him something and didn't hear anything for a little while. And then all of a sudden, he's like, John, he's like, Hey, sorry, I didn't get back to you right away. It's been pretty hectic here. He's like, I actually had a couple of guys recently put a hit out on me. And I think he said, whatever it was, it came to about $1,000 per person for two people to take him out, $1,000 US,

Starting point is 01:22:27 which is kind of insane. And the first message was like, ah, you know, it's not that big of a deal. I've gotten threats throughout, you know, it's part of the career, it's part of the job. You know, threats come, threats go, we do what we can to be safe. You know, we reach out to the police, it's not going to be a huge deal. And I was like, all right, but this seems a little sketchy. You know, it's, I just, my fear always as a filmmaker making this film as we release it, was that it would increase his visibility and bring more threats upon him. But this was before we were even done. And so I think I got another message maybe a week later. And he was like, yeah, these guys are coming after me i might have to move my family you know try to protect everyone go to the reserve more and i think at that time i actually reached out to ruben did he know who they were like did he know who they were with he and or

Starting point is 01:23:16 lot when when he tells his his first hand side of it i mean it was definitely instigated by some rangers that as we were talking earlier, had turned and were giving information and finally gotten rid of these guys. And when they left, they basically threatened Anton's life. And then that's when these threats started coming to him. So, you know, you can't 100% certainty say that, but it's pretty evident that they were involved in some way. So, so yeah, we just started going back and forth. And I called Ruben up and I was like, Hey, I don't know if you know this, what's going on with Anton. Cause Ruben had, you know, he'd worked very closely with Anton over the years. He trained him. Anton worked with Ruben training rangers. So they, they become close friends.

Starting point is 01:23:57 And Ruben was like, no, Anton hasn't told me anything about this. He's like, I'll, I'll reach out to him and see how things are going and then also reach out to some other people to see if they can help with this situation and i think it was about a month or two of getting messages back from anton and each time he sent one it was like escalating to where is he going back but he's going back and forth on deployments during this he's yeah i mean he's he's out there in the field working, doing his job as a ranger and also being very concerned about his family who's at home when he's out there. And so he basically – the messages just started getting a little bit more tense, a little more – I wouldn't say he got frantic,

Starting point is 01:24:41 but you could definitely tell he was starting to worry and Anton has never – Oh, I could hear it on this phone call. I wouldn't say every got frantic, but you could definitely tell he was starting to worry. And Anton is never in. No, I could hear it on this, on this phone. Yeah. And the voice messages are in the movie, some of them. And so he,

Starting point is 01:24:53 he started really worrying that his family was going to be in trouble and he started moving them. He was getting information and he was able to move them into the reserve. But he's like, you know, we got to live our lives too. And, and like, you know, I got to take my kids back to school today and I'm just afraid that someone's going to kidnap one of them and hold them for ransom or something. So that was

Starting point is 01:25:12 really his big fear. And so it kept going on for a little while. And then all of a sudden, Anton was like, Hey, you know, I think, I think we scared these guys off. You know, we had SAPS, which is the South African police services involved. And they were, I think, I think we scared these guys off. You know, we had SAPS, which is the South African police services involved. And they were, I think they put in like an intimidation case and they thought that they'd scared these guys off and push them off and it got quiet. And so the threats kind of disappeared. And so I think it was about two months after that, there was nothing. And it was actually the last message I had with Anton.

Starting point is 01:25:46 I think I had the final mixes of the film. It was like the last thing we needed to do was sound mix. This is 2023. 2022, beginning of July. Okay. And I was like, hey, Anton. He's like, I'm almost done with the film. We're getting really close.

Starting point is 01:26:01 I really want to come in September. This is July. And, you know, share it with you and the team. I mean, he had seen the film and we always use it like consulted with him because we want to make sure we're on the right path and honoring what the Rangers are actually doing and once, but this would be the first time where we'd have like a proper screening, try to get the whole team there, the Rangers. And so I was really looking forward to this for me. That was like the ultimate, like have him and Ruben there together. And so I was really looking forward to this. For me, that was like the ultimate, like have him and Ruben there together. And so I was just telling Anton, I was like, I think I'm

Starting point is 01:26:29 going to be able to come in September. Like, this would be amazing. Put on a screening, be with you guys. And then Anton sent me a message back and he's like, hey, John, he's like, I'm really glad you're coming, but I wish it was a little sooner. He's like, in a couple of weeks, it's going to be World Ranger Day on July 31st. And he's like, we're going to throw a party. We're going to bribe. We're going to have, you know, some Impala meets. And I just, you know, really wish you were here. But he's like, but yeah, I'll see you when you get here and chat to you soon.

Starting point is 01:26:54 And then I think it was maybe a week or so later, I woke up in the morning. For some reason, I had my phone on silent. I think it was like, I was just like in a mentally not very focused. And so I was like, I'm going to start. I was, this was literally the first day. I was like, I'm just going to have my phone completely off in the mornings. Not going to look at it. I'm going to go work out, you know, get into a good routine, all this stuff. And so I'm like working out, I think it was like five 30 in the morning and good friends and roommate at the time, Josh Lumsdenden he had been a part of

Starting point is 01:27:26 our organization was the board president of gcc for a while uh and and knew anton well too and so i'm like working out he's in the sleeping in the next room all of a sudden he comes in the room and his like hair is kind of crazy his eyes are bloodshot And just like he was standing there, and it kind of like made me take a step back. I was like, hey, man, like what's going on? And in my mind, I was thinking like someone in his family died or something. And he looks at me and he goes, they got him. And I was like, got who? He's like, they got Anton.

Starting point is 01:28:02 And I don't know i think you know you just you know that the threat is there and this is a possibility but especially with that couple of months of nothing happening it just almost kind of went out of my mind and and yeah i think i was just completely in shock like i was just completely emotionless and i was i was I was like, they, they killed Anton. The hit men got him. And he's like, yeah, they, they came to his house and they shot him in front of his family. And. Well, didn't, didn't they literally like his little son who sounded like he was like four or five years old or something?

Starting point is 01:28:40 Like they came up nicely to him and asked him where the father was like with a smile and then went and got him uh i mean i think what i what what i've heard from them was i don't think it was the the youngest son but it was kind of like one of the middle sons oh he had multiple yeah yeah they were asking for water basically they pretended like their car had broken down and came up with a bottle and said hey can you can you, you know, we need some water for our car, like our radiator or something broke. And they went up to Anton, who was, I think, working on his truck at the time. And basically pretended like they needed help. And Anton's just always in that mode of like, hey, how can I help you guys? And I think it had been so long

Starting point is 01:29:25 since these threats, you know, I mean, not that long, but a couple of months. And so it just wasn't even his mind. He's like, how can I help you? And then they basically pulled out their guns and shot him right there in front of, you know, his kids were there, his, his wives were there, his, his wife, Grace came out and I think she was right there and then she screamed and they shot her in the stomach. And then one of his kids tried to get his sidearm and ran off and they shot at him before taking off. And yeah, I think when we all heard this, we just kind of rocked our worlds. I mean, it was, he'd become a very close friend and he's just such an amazing human being. And I remember like Matt called me shortly after that. Matt Lindenberg started this whole thing. he'd become a very close friend and he's just such an amazing human being.

Starting point is 01:30:07 And I remember Matt called me shortly after that. Matt Lindenberg started this whole thing. And when he called, that's when I think he was already breaking down because he had known for some hours before me. But, yeah, I just completely lost it and was pretty devastated by the whole thing. And we believe, if i'm understanding correctly from the beginning of you telling this you think it was actually those two rangers who had gone dark themselves who may have done this like personally i don't think they performed the hit but instigated it and maybe or lots you can jump in a little bit with with what you're able to say but and and or a

Starting point is 01:30:42 lot of if you wouldn't mind i didn't want to interrupt the story there because obviously we we've got to get that and and you were explaining it but in the build-up to this when when anton is sending those voicemails to to john while you know he's on and off from deployment moving his family around and everything you're with him for a lot of this obviously so number one were you also getting concerned for your family at the time and are you concerned now? And number two, you know, by the time it happened, how worried was he still? Even if you had said you thought, like, oh, it got quiet, they got scared off. Was he still very fearful of that till the day he died um yeah um i was i was getting emotional but yeah i've gotta be uh up on my game here so when when when when this uh started in, it didn't start in 2022.

Starting point is 01:31:46 It started way before that. The plan was to get rid of us, the both of us, myself and Anton, out of Timbavati, so that they can operate freely, because they felt like we can be a problem if we dare, you know, they're not going to be able to do what they wanted to do. So they had a plan in place to say that, okay, this is what we're going to use against Ola,

Starting point is 01:32:14 this is what we're going to use against Anton, so that we get rid of them here. The first plan was not to kill us, but to make us lose our job, and of which they failed that. How did they want to do that? There was a planned grievance that was launched against the both of us, but they first started with me.

Starting point is 01:32:40 If they got rid of me, then they were going to come for Anton. They had a couple of charges that they drafted to say that, okay, this is what we're charging him of, and we no longer want to work with him. You know, and you could see that was a sign to say that these guys have completely turned. And they even forced all the Rangers to say that you signed this grievance form so that it can have that impact. Kwa hivyo kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutoka kutawa kutawa kutawa kutawa kutawa k so they've failed it and I remember one of the guys told me during the hearing

Starting point is 01:33:29 to say that if the company doesn't dismiss me then they leaving them with no choice but they will have to shoot me so but yeah it went on and they failed to to get what I wanted what if plan their plan didn't on and they failed to get what they wanted, what they planned. Their plan didn't work. And they went to this second plan, which was to kill us. Luckily, we had somebody who kept on giving us information to say that, okay, this is what they're planning now. This is what they need to do.

Starting point is 01:34:03 How did you get that person well if you can't reveal some stuff don't reveal it but like was that someone within that organization who was who was you know an informant for you um this was an um informant for anton uh he was a part of uh our ranger call then got me dismissed because he was involved into this uh and approaching but then because he was very much close to the late anton zimba he he never wanted something to happen to anton when he had this because he was dismissed and these guys later on got dismissed so they went and formed a group with him but then he was he never wanted to be part of this so he will leak information to say that okay this is what they're planning now this

Starting point is 01:34:50 is what's going to happen and so he was feeding information to to Anton with all their plans and whenever they having a meeting he will say that okay today they're planning to have a meeting and he will update after to say that okay now their plan is this so we we we then went and open a case of intimidation and of which we were told that they will investigate this is what the local police yes they said they will investigate that, and it went quiet, like as John said, for a moment. But then, to my surprise, Anthony was off duty. I've just received a message to say that that intimidation case that I've went to to open has been withdrawn, but I never went to to open has been withdrawn but I never went to withdraw

Starting point is 01:35:45 it then I immediately phoned him to say that I'm seeing this withdrawal SMS here do you know something about it and he said that yeah if I come back then we'll have to go and make a follow-up on that he was he was at home we were pretty kufikia kwa hivyo. Kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, on Saturday because I was on duty. I had plans to say that okay when he comes back this is what we need to do for the team and this is what's gonna happen and all that. Unfortunately I just got a phone call it was on Friday. Late, I remember it was minutes before seven o'clock. To say that Anton has been shot. I couldn't believe it. I immediately dropped the call.

Starting point is 01:37:02 But within few seconds I had to make a phone call again to somebody else because I was doubting what I had, only to find that they're confirming that he has been shot. And I knew deep down that I'm next. If they got him, obviously they would get me. So I didn't know what to do by then, but I had to man up and stay strong. I was hoping that they didn't kill him. They might have shot him, but he's not dead. I will get help when they rush him to the hospitals and all that, and of which that's why they tried. But unfortunately, they didn't make it.

Starting point is 01:38:00 That made me to lose my mind, because I knew everything that Anton was being given. He will share it with me that these are the guys, those who are behind the planning, and these are the guys who have been paid to shoot us I just called the the manager to inform him about the situation and I wanted to drive to Anton's home but it was dangerous They never allowed me to do it because, you know, I was their next target. They said that you're not going anywhere. We will try and deal with the situation and hopefully Anton will make it and we will get the guys. But yeah, he was gone. He was gone by then and after that I had to spend more than five if not six months without without going home to see my family because it was it was tense so

Starting point is 01:39:19 we were all hoping that hoping that justice is going to be served. Whoever did it is going to be found and brought to book. But it never happened. And that made me not to live my normal life again. Is it because the government, the police did not take the investigation seriously? Maybe there's corruption there? Do we know why? I mean, I can hear the emotion raw to this day in your voice, not just for what happened, but for the aftermath and the effect that has on you. And I can't even imagine not being able to see my family for six, seven months,

Starting point is 01:40:09 unknowing when that's going to happen. But do we know why this wasn't, these guys weren't brought to justice to this point? I could be wrong, but I just feel like they didn't take that intimidation case seriously in the first place. And the fact that I received a withdrawal statement without going to withdraw my statement, it says a lot. Because if I didn't go and withdraw my case, then who might have withdrew it?

Starting point is 01:40:44 Right. So, yeah, I don't know if there was investigation going on on that intimidation case. And when this happened, I started doubting to say that my safety at first, am I safe? If Anton had responded to that situation that was in front of him, was he not going to be in chains now being charged of a murder because we we felt like uh this was gonna be you know it's something that if ever they took Kwa hivyo tunafanya Kwa hivyo tunafanya Kwa hivyo tunafanya Kwa hivyo tunafanya

Starting point is 01:41:54 Kwa hivyo tunafanya Kwa hivyo tunafanya Kwa hivyo tunafanya Kwa hivyo tunafanya Kwa hivyo tunafanya was opened of intimidation we had names of who were behind this because we gave them almost everything that this is their plan this is what's gonna happen it's only two guys who have been hired to to come and shoot and they had everything before it happened and it happened exactly like that but up to this far nothing nobody has been caught so it

Starting point is 01:42:30 leaves a lot of loopholes and you know questions again to say that am i am i safe is Anton's family safe? Are these guys not going to come back? Because if they've done it and they get away with it, what's going to stop them from doing it again? That was going to be my next question. I think you just answered it, though. Do you think there's an active potential bounty on your head today? I know for a fact that these guys are always behind my back.

Starting point is 01:43:14 They're always triggering my movement, and it's just a matter of time they put me down, which is fine. Anton didn't deserve what happened to him. Anton never wanted to leave his family like the way they did. But it happened. So if it happens to me, so be it. But I won't stop doing what I'm supposed to do.

Starting point is 01:43:49 That's incredibly brave, man. I mean, I can't imagine being in that position. I get to sit here in a nice chair in Hoboken. I don't got to worry about any of this stuff, but it's, you know, I'm struck sometimes by the incredible bravery of some of the special people who come through this studio and give me their time, sometimes from halfway across the world. And let our listeners and watchers in on the realities that exist out there and that, you know, we take for granted in our very privileged lives here. But you guys are at the forefront of fighting a battle that many of us around the world,

Starting point is 01:44:32 even those who aren't educated that it's even going on, not only can appreciate but are rooting for you because we don't want to see these bad guys take away these species and take away part of the story of this earth. And so to see that passion that rings through and you standing here and sitting here in your uniform saying, if they're coming after me, so be it, two years later after they get here. From early morning workouts that need a boost to late night drives that need vibes, a good playlist can help you make the most out of your everyday.

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Starting point is 01:45:28 Visit pcfinancial.ca for details. Get your best friend and try to get some of his family too. It's incredibly courageous, man. So thank you for what you do. Yeah, Orlotz, another Anton. I mean, these guys shouldn't have to face this kind of threat, especially off duty. And I think, you know, this, what he's the facts, but it does sound like there's potentially some corruption within the police force there. As well as on top of that, you know, they're just under-resourced. So even if there are people trying to do good things, there's a lot of murders in that area.

Starting point is 01:46:17 I mean, it's not only wildlife crime related, but there's a lot of stuff happening there because of these different syndicates. And so there's just not enough police to go because of these different syndicates. And so there's just not enough police to go and dive into all these murder cases. And we've done what we can to keep putting pressure. I think last we heard, the case has been moved from the local police to the Hawks, which is kind of like the fbi there and i think the investigation is has been ongoing but we still haven't arrested any of these killers and they're still at large and i mean you know like or lot saying when you're out there and you're thinking about someone like anton getting taken out you know or a lot someone that has the passion and drive and dedication to follow through no matter what the odds. But a lot of Rangers are probably out

Starting point is 01:47:11 there pretty scared right now and wondering what's going on. And that's exactly, yeah, it's exactly what the syndicates want. And so we need to do everything we can to bring justice to Anton and other people like him that have gone through these situations. And we have a petition out there that we have over 100,000 signatures, but we need real investigative work and people to follow through and catch these guys and prosecute them. That's pretty amazing you have 100,000 signatures. That's no small feat. That's hard to do. Yeah, it's still out there, so if you want to go sign it.

Starting point is 01:47:42 I'm trying to put a visual on this though as far as like you know see the enemy what they are exactly and we've been dancing around some of the places this comes from today and i want to get to more of that but you mentioned this starts this particular situation starts with a couple rangers who had gone bad left and were bitter but it's because they went to the other side. What is the other side? And as an example, you've seen the documentary, The Ivory Game? Brilliant documentary. I think it was that one. I hope I'm not mixing it up with another one.

Starting point is 01:48:17 But they took down a syndicate that was essentially a mafia family, right? Like we got the Gambinos, the Genovese here. Like they had whatever they were called, and it was all these guys who were doing it. Are there some candidates of some mafia poaching families that these guys were associated with? And since these are poaching families, I don't care about bringing attention to them. Like who are the candidates? Yeah. Yeah. I don't have all the names at hand, but there definitely are bosses. So there's big poaching syndicates, families. There's one that was just killed. What last year? Nisi, is that his name? He's a really big

Starting point is 01:48:59 poaching syndicate boss. And it's just like, I mean, if you go back to the mafia stories in new york i mean these guys are taking each other out the different families or there's wars within them and so same thing happened this guy was i think driving to the airport or something and the they pulled up next to him or stopped him and just went up to the car with ak's and and shot him up sunny corleone yeah exactly same same kind of stuff so it's just that but then just you know bring overlay that on this south african context with wildlife included so i mean they're doing everything from money heists like uh you know you're taking a brinks truck essentially with a bunch of money in it and they'll just you know it's like uh heat or something you know but way more ragtag and just

Starting point is 01:49:43 like jumping out with ak's and and i mean the police force there too really isn't equipped to fight back on something like that and it's kind of insane like the local communities have kind of taken up arms for themselves so there's something called like the farm watch oh let's go yeah okay little neighborhood watch if something goes down i think uh was the last year when we were in jackson wild we were talking about uh basically a cash and transit heist that was going on and way faster than the police it got through this whatsapp channel the farm watch guys and they came out and literally had a gun battle in the middle of the street to take these guys out and i think they they ended up pretty much winning right they got they arrested yeah some of these guys they've um arrested it was 13 13 guys yeah it was a big group i mean these aren't it's not just

Starting point is 01:50:32 like one or two people stopping it's like multiple cars guys getting out with guns and some of these farm watch guys got together and basically took them out and arrested them. So it's, it's pretty wild west out there. And, you know, there's, I mean, there's drugs, there's murders, there's a lot of stuff going on. That's, it's really just super tough for people living in these communities because there's so many amazing humans. They're just trying to live life. And you've got these huge syndicates battling it out to, to, mostly out of greed and bringing in people that otherwise would just be trying to make a living, but they might be a little bit stressed for money and then you get pulled into the system. Now, Africa is a pretty big continent. There's all

Starting point is 01:51:16 different places where these species are. We've been focusing on South Africa, obviously. But what, you know, how much up close and dirty dealing are you seeing with, say, Boko Haram, Al-Shabaab, even ISIS Africa? As far as the poaching that's going on on the ground, or is it more like their money is behind the syndicates who are getting paid? I can't tell you too many of the details about that. I don't know if Orlatt knows much more than I do, but I've been super hyper-focused on the South African context and then outside of that just getting the film done. But I know there's a lot of crossover between terrorism and gun trafficking, trying to fund terrorism through wildlife trade.

Starting point is 01:52:07 So I don't know how much of that's happening in South Africa in particular, but definitely like these other groups that you're saying, that's exactly what they're doing. They're using ivory and rhino horn to fund their operations as terrorists. And so it's actually kind of going into how we got connected to Prince William and United for Wildlife. Yeah, how did that happen? Yeah, it's all because of Anton, honestly.

Starting point is 01:52:30 So we didn't even know about this because I'm sure he told you, but he's such a humble guy that he wasn't like, hey, I talked to Prince William. But six months before his death, he had been invited on a call. I think it was like a Microsoft Teams call. Microsoft is developing some kind of AI system to detect rhino horn ivory things coming through the airports. Really? Yeah, because they scan all that stuff and it can see different shapes and things like that. So they were presenting this to Prince William and United for Wildlife. And as a part of that presentation, they wanted someone on the ground.

Starting point is 01:53:04 And they got connected with Anton. Anton, I think had like a 15, 20 minute call with Prince William on the other line. And just through that call, I think, I mean, he's just such an amazing guy. It's just like that connection, that bond happens and you hear about the type of work he's doing and what he's facing. And so after he was killed, literally the next morning, Prince William tweeted out, like with his personal signature in his tweet, you know, we need justice for Anton. This just happened. He was murdered. Rangers are facing these kinds of threats all around the world. You know, they need our support.

Starting point is 01:53:36 And so we were like, whoa, this is pretty incredible. Like Prince William's taking notice of Anton. This is kind of wild. Special guy. Yeah. And so, I mean, we weren't really surprised. Anton's just like incredible human, but I think it was two or three days later, we had someone from the United for Wildlife team, which is his conservation organization. They reached out and they're like, Hey, we saw you did a podcast with Anton. Like,

Starting point is 01:53:58 you know, can we reshare that? And I was like, yeah, absolutely. But also we've been working on this movie for the last, you know, however many years. And so it kind of like turned into this relationship where we started doing some events with them, got to meet Prince William, spoke about Anton and the Rangers. And through that, really starting to learn about United for Wildlife and what they do. And it's a pretty cool organization. I mean, they're essentially working to bring together people from finance, transportation, law enforcement, NGOs, internationally, to share information to be able to take down these crime syndicates. Because, you know, Orlots and the team at the Timbavati are there on the ground, they're on the front lines. These people are coming in, trying to kill the wildlife, you know, they're facing the threats on the outside. But this is being funded from people in Asia, different parts of the world coming, taking this wildlife products and selling it and processing it. But money has to transfer through banks. Product has to transfer through

Starting point is 01:54:58 ports. And so all of these different organizations, banks and airports and all these things have some piece of the puzzle. And so when someone's caught with a bunch of rhino horn, typically what would happen would be like, oh, we caught someone. We got this much rhino horn. They show the guy. We arrested him. That's it. But what they started to realize is like, you know, we have all this information. If we could share it, we could say, oh, we caught this guy.

Starting point is 01:55:23 He was coming from this place. Oh, we have this transaction that actually was coming from this guy too. And then suddenly you can build this pattern of information and start taking down some of these bigger guys out of the syndicates. And so when we connected with them and started telling Anton's story and people within United for Wildlife started hearing this it was kind of cool to see the power of connecting the two together with the rangers on the ground because I think for someone that's maybe behind a computer on a spreadsheet like flagging

Starting point is 01:55:54 different transactions that might be illegal that are connected to wildlife trade and then seeing the impact that they could actually be having by taking down these syndicates not only for the wildlife, you know, saving rhinos and whatever, but also the human life that you're saving, someone like Anton, by being able to take out these syndicates before they can put this kind of pressure on these guys.

Starting point is 01:56:16 It's been really powerful. So they've gotten behind the story and have been supporting it. Prince William created an introduction for a film for film festivals and special screenings we had an amazing screening with him and united for wildlife oh you did one with him yeah that was epic orla orla was there and got to speak in front of prince william met him what's he like like like when you say you met him is it more like you're in the line hello prince william how are you it's great to meet you or it more like personal, like you're sitting there having a drink, like bullshitting like anyone else? It wasn't sitting there having a drink.

Starting point is 01:56:50 That would have been cool. But I mean, we probably had like five minutes with him, something like that. And in my group, it was Orlatz, myself, Lato was there. And I mean, he just comes up. He's very genuine. He seems very concerned. He's informed. I mean, he's always like straight to the Rangers, like, how are you guys doing?

Starting point is 01:57:09 How can we support you? How's your family? How's Anton's family? Everyone on his team has just been incredible. And, I mean, I know there's a lot of stuff in media about all the – I don't really follow all that stuff. Oh, people talk about everything. Yeah, but. Oh, people talk about everything. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Starting point is 01:57:25 But if you're judging someone by the team that they're leading, like these are some of the most genuine, caring people. They've supported us in so many ways. I mean, I can email them in response. Wow. And so it's been really cool. We just actually came from a little event,

Starting point is 01:57:40 like a steer co-committee with a lot of the United for Wildlife people. What? It's just kind of like allcommittee with a lot of the united for wildlife people what uh it's just kind of like all the the heads of some of the organizations that are trying to steer the united for wildlife north america chapter and like what they're doing in the kind of coming years just kind of setting markers and goals and things like that and so we since we were here they invited us to come up there and or lots andeda both got to speak and tell their stories.

Starting point is 01:58:07 And it's cool because it's like people in banks and airlines and things like that. And they get to hear from the rangers on the ground and the effect that they can be having by participating in this collaboration internationally. So, yeah, overall, it's been a pretty amazing experience it's all honestly because of anton's connection and his ability to communicate we were connected and it's a crazy thing is like a filmmaker to i think that was the toughest thing to grapple with is like after anton was killed like i couldn't even think about it for the first couple months but it's like what do we do with this film like What's the right thing to do? Do we just put it out as it is?

Starting point is 01:58:48 Do we include Anton's story, and how do you do that in a way that's respectful but also does what we're trying to do with this film and bring that awareness and be real? And yeah, it's been a crazy journey to, to figure that out. But through kind of reconnecting with the team and his family after his murder and spending time with them and getting their blessing, that's, I think that really helped us say, okay, we need to move forward with this. We need to include this. And it was probably some of the toughest editing I've

Starting point is 01:59:24 ever done in my life, honestly. Oh, sure. Like his memorial and his death. I think I just cried for like three weeks as I edited that footage. Well, you did it, and I mean this in all the right ways. You did a great job. A couple things there. Number one, this does need to be said.

Starting point is 01:59:37 If you look at the history and conservation with the current modern-day royal family, they have been huge in that stuff and they've been really they really do care about it for sure and it seems like you know i've never been around them or whatever but it seems like even though like william and harry i guess don't get along very well now the two of them from when i talk to people who have been around them and you know deal with them on other things not just this this, they seem to have their moms touch with stuff, which is really cool from a personal level. And to see William immediately tweet out, let's call it what it is, very important awareness on Anton's death immediately right after, that's walking the talk. And I want to recognize that.

Starting point is 02:00:23 That's really cool but the second thing here is that i i can i was thinking about this you know as someone who's a creative and makes content and stuff i was thinking about this while i'm watching the documentary because i i saw how many years you put into this and there's this wild thing that happens where you're telling an amazing story already of somebody and then the worst thing happens and nobody wants to see that. But now that it has happened, you now have the responsibility of, in this case, Anton's legacy and the legacy that Orla is continuing here and what these guys are trying to build

Starting point is 02:00:59 to try to get the most attention on this that you can and do it in a respectful way. And I will tell you, you nailed that because you could sit there and make it fucking Hollywood all over the place. You didn't do that. You did it in a really serene – like no even background music. It was just – as a filmmaker, like loved how you did that. And it's important that people see that and they have a way to feel that because we're emotional beings, you know, that's just what ties us together in humanity. And, and that's

Starting point is 02:01:32 that unfortunately, sometimes is the way in to get people's attention. And what you don't want to see is someone like Anton die in vain in the sense that 10 years from now, the same exact problems that he was facing, we're still facing at the same level, you know? So if, if we can improve that, you're not going to fix everything overnight. I understand that. But if, if, if films like this and getting a story out like this can help improve that. So the 10 years from now, instead of here, we're here, then his death isn't for nothing. Of course, we'd all love him to be here and continuing to do what he does, but the best way that he can be honored is, is in the legacy of improving what he what he

Starting point is 02:02:09 spent his life doing. Yeah. And I think, I think something else too, that helped me process this was thinking about Anton and how much time he put into this film as well. I mean, he wouldn't have done this if he didn't want to or think that it was a good idea. You know what I mean? He wanted to bring that awareness to people around the world. And as a friend and someone that's kind of the arbiter of this legacy through this film, I think I realized like, okay, we need to do whatever we can to, just like you said, bring that awareness to another level. And unfortunately, sometimes it takes a harsh reality to wake people up and to take action and actually do something about it. And yeah, there's not too many people that are as incredible and loving and caring and dedicated as Anton. And when you see someone like that go all the way for something they believe in, um yeah i think it does something to you and

Starting point is 02:03:05 makes you want to act yeah well let's say we've been going around it today with different things you have to do but let's let's take people there onto the ground with what goes into being a ranger because you guys did an amazing job in this documentary showing some of the training actually could we show some of that yeah yeah i think it's you had some i think there was that like 36 minutes in there was some the selection was a huge part of this and here goes my i need to update my contacts apparently 36 let's see probably do yeah right there yeah that stuff was good too yeah yeah here this is the kind of the beginning of some of the training and this this is Ruben de Kock. He is a legendary ranger trainer who started African Field Ranger Training Services with his wife, Marion.

Starting point is 02:03:53 And then another amazing guy that we honored in the film, Martin Mtembu, just a legendary ranger trainer who inspired this whole project when he passed away in a car accident. Oh, I want to talk about that. Yeah. Yeah, we can go into that too. Let's get into these guys right after. Part of the selection and what they have to go through. All right, let's hit that play button. We're good to go.

Starting point is 02:04:14 You got it? Almost. There we go. Boom. And you're going to do push-ups. This guy's accent kills me. You're going to do push-ups. We get from accent kills me. You're going to do push-ups. Push-ups also help strengthen the shoulders and that.

Starting point is 02:04:30 Do 35 push-ups to achieve 60%. But if I've got a guy that is bending and breaking his body, if I can see this guy is really pushing hard, I can hear it in his breathing, I can see it in his body. That's what I'm looking for, the guy that will try and go that extra mile. Ah! 26. Push. You can do it.

Starting point is 02:04:53 Core muscles must be extremely strong. Carrying heavy backpack, you're carrying a firearm. You've got to be able to deploy that firearm very quickly. Your core muscles must be really strong. 75 leg extensions gets you 60% fitness rate. Pull-ups obviously is clearly a strength of the shoulders and arms. Again, you need shoulders and arms to be able to successfully carry that firearm

Starting point is 02:05:15 and successfully deploy it when you're in a pressure situation. And that battery test is repeated twice a day, morning and afternoon. On top of that, each day they march 10 kilometers with their sandbag four liters of water and their metal firearm simulating a day patrolling in the bush rangers must be able to walk long distances and they must be able to persevere even with the weight on their backs it's not just torture There's like a reason behind everything they're doing. Trying to train the best of the best. I get it. Okay, four down.

Starting point is 02:05:56 So these guys are just collecting their kit now and what they're going to do is they're probably going to hand it over to Kobelo and then they will be taken to the gut dropped on the road i get a taxi that off so that's for just starting so it's not the purpose it's not to drop them it's just some of the excuses that they are giving it's it's typical of a guy that will just give up a check all right we can pause it right there it's perfect no bullshit around here they don't mess

Starting point is 02:06:27 around so tough love so on let's start with this or a lot what are like we picture rangers they have to go out and patrol they have to be able to you know be able to fire upon people make arrests and and do stuff like that. But when you're starting with someone who's just coming in and you're basically getting them from scratch, what are the main skills outside of just strength and endurance that you really need to beat into them so they can do the job correctly? You're going to need to have that interest on wildlife. So if you don't have a background, then it's as good as nothing because you can be tough on the exercises, you can excel on that, but if you don't know what you're going to deal with in there,

Starting point is 02:07:24 then it makes no sense. But if you know what you want to do and it adds with the physical strength, then that is the kind of guy that we want in our team. But if you don't have any idea of what's going on there, you might run that 10-kilometer race in five minutes.

Starting point is 02:08:00 But if you can't stand in front of an elephant, if you can't know how to interpret any actions that the animals can give you, then you're going to be a trouble in there. You are the one who is going to shoot all those animals because every charge that you're going to face, the only way I mean to defend yourself is to shoot those. So we need somebody who has got a background or somebody who has got interest, somebody who has got the light of what's going in there. That gives you an idea of how to deal with it whenever you are in a situation when you're out there.

Starting point is 02:08:45 The training itself, it's more like a foundation. They give you a foundation. Then the rest, you're going to build it on your own when you are out in a field. So, and if you are somebody who comes in, you know, with, you know, with having this physical fitness well and you're excelling on that and whatever comes after that, you're most likely to ignore it and you're not going to survive out there.

Starting point is 02:09:19 So we need somebody who can have a bit of background and knows how to survive when he's out there. This is just a test to say that are you going to be able to walk those extra miles? Are you going to be able to do this? But the main aspect that we're looking for is that bit of background. And on a day-to-day, like like because you guys you were talking about how you have you know you have some guys who are off and some guys who are on how it works people go to sleep but when you're out there and maybe it's 10 guys are on it seems like you're going out in teams of

Starting point is 02:09:59 two a lot is that fair to say yes yes um a of two, and it could be a max of five. Okay. Yeah, but it has to be a minimum of two so that you can be able to defend for yourself and your colleague. But if you are alone, then if something happens, then who is going to defend for you, who is going to look for you? All right, so outside of getting specific intelligence on the actual area to go to if something may be going down if you're on a normal day do you guys i would imagine across your 54 000 hectares is that what it is i would imagine you guys have if there's five teams of two going out at one time. You guys have different areas that you're each patrolling. And you're just kind of like going around, checking off, making sure everything's in order.

Starting point is 02:10:50 All the animals that you usually track are there. And if there's not, then an investigation happens. Yes, affirmative. That's what we basically do. We check for any illegal activities or anything out of ordinary that might be happening and we investigate. If nothing happens, we still don't go and relax and say that it's quiet because you never know. You might have walked now five minutes later down the line and something is happening. So as I've said earlier that we're going that extra mile

Starting point is 02:11:25 to make sure that nothing happens. So we don't relax as rangers. We scan. But however, if you pick up something, then we sort of like pulls, well, not everyone in, but you call what we call backup to try and add manpower, to try and support that. If, let's say, the guys are showing direction, they're heading north,

Starting point is 02:11:51 then you've got what we call a stopper group. You know, that sort of like helps in terms of closing the gap because you never know if you're behind the guys, you don't know how far they've gone. But if you've got another team scanning in front they most likely to pick up uh those tracks that you maybe 20 miles away tracking so it will be more like an advantage if you've got another team tracking in front because they will pick it up and in that moment we have already closed that uh 20

Starting point is 02:12:26 miles that you you were away because now the guys are gonna start from there and moving forward and you might find that from wherever they are you know they're very much close to uh finding the guys so you you always play around uh if ever there is something that you have picked up you you play around with your team you position them here and there where you think or you suspect that the guys might most likely to cross and that's how we

Starting point is 02:12:54 operate in this game of nowadays because otherwise you've got to think out of the box for in order to catch these guys. This thing of always staying behind, you know, tracking them from behind, you might not win because they know that once you pick up the tracks,

Starting point is 02:13:17 you won't ignore it, but you will track them. So they make it harder for you, I mean, to find them, to catch up with them. So you need people who can assist here and there, cut corners and check if they didn't cross, and that's how you close the gap. What are some things that poachers are starting to do tactic-wise that is, I don't know, smarter for them, that is making your job yet to be more and more on your toes?

Starting point is 02:13:46 They always claim that they're smarter than us, but no, they're not. They're not. If they don't have somebody within your team who is helping with information, who is providing information, then they're not going to win in this game. What they do, the tactics that we have picked up, because we're humans and we think like them, they have got this tendency of putting socks underneath their shoes to try and make it difficult for us to pick up the track.

Starting point is 02:14:25 Because now if there is a sock underneath, you won't see the shoe pattern. So it's like maybe a badge. Badges were playing or something was happening, but you won't think it's a human being. Wow. But we know those tricks. We know what they're doing, and we own it. kwa hivyo h we can confirm that, okay, there is nothing that links to this

Starting point is 02:15:26 that we're suspecting here. So as I'm saying that they think they're clever, but they're not because it's not working. You can see that there was a mark here and a couple of steps, you know, it's more like a bed can't do it here and do it like in a pattern where a human being can do it. Then obviously that tells you that, no, somebody will walk here. And we've got canines.

Starting point is 02:15:56 Oh, you do? Yes, that can become huge. Yeah, they are the huge game changer. German shepherds? Yes. Nice. Because they can pick up the scent. And even if they did that, the scent is still there.

Starting point is 02:16:12 So they're just wasting their time, as I'm saying, that they think they clever, but they're not. Yeah, just on the dogs real quick, I mean, there's the German Shepherds and what is it, Malamutes are the other ones that they often use. So a lot of the times the rangers will go out with them and catch the tracks and then the dogs can help track them. That's awesome. But they also, in Kruger, they have the bloodhounds that actually came from Texas. And they started using the hounds.

Starting point is 02:16:39 And what they'll do is they'll take a whole group of hounds up in a helicopter. And when they know they have poachers active out there, and then they drop all these hounds out and just let them off leash, and they just chase like mad. Do they parachute them down? Well, they land. I'd love to see that, a bunch of little hounds. That'd be the most Texas thing ever.

Starting point is 02:17:01 Go get them, boys! Little shoots dropping. But they land on the ground, and then they let them all loose. And they let them get the scent of where the poachers are. And then if you're a poacher, just imagine being out there trying to escape and you kind of think you're evading them. And then all of a sudden, you hear all these hounds

Starting point is 02:17:18 running after you and they go way faster than you do. So it's been a big game changer in Kruger as well to be able to have these hounds go out because they'll track them and pin them down somewhere. And then the rangers can catch up in the helicopter. That's great. And drop right in and grab them. So, yeah.

Starting point is 02:17:33 Dogs are huge, man. Yeah. I've had the privilege of having a couple serious dog guys in here. I had a Dale Comstock who's like, I mean mean he's a military legend in this country and one of his specialties now, he's seal dogs when they adopted that and now he actually is kind of stopped training for military but for a long time was once he left the military was training a lot of the dogs for the military and also rehabilitating those who were leaving the military and everything but when you get these guys talking about the tool that a dog can be it's a lot more than just what you see at the airport where they're sniffing a bomb or something

Starting point is 02:18:24 i mean that is an amazing amazing creature to have on the ground helping with stuff like this. And they do do that as well. Some of the entry check gates coming in and out of these different reserves, they'll have dogs and they'll sniff around and they can detect rhino horn or ivory and different things like that. But just to continue a little bit on, you know, Orlott was talking a lot about tracking and anti-tracking and stuff like that. But from like a bigger level, a lot of the people that are also involved in poaching within these reserves are maybe construction workers that are coming in and working on a house or a lodge or something like that. Or it could be a lodge worker or a guide. And they have access and they're there for a longer

Starting point is 02:19:06 period of time sometimes they'll do the poaching but often they'll give the information to the poachers and then you know in kruger you could come in for a day ride if you you managed to hide a gun in your car you could come in get dropped off walk shoot a rhino car comes around picks you up takes you out and so yeah it's such a big place. It's hard to detect all these different things. And you have so many different people moving in and out, different security clearances and things like that. It makes it really difficult.

Starting point is 02:19:36 So, yeah, these guys have to be on top of it. And they're very wise to the tricks that these guys are trying to play. Orlat, how often are you guys losing an animal these days? Well, if I can talk for Timbavati, it's not that bad. After the assassination of the late Anton Zimbabwe, we stood firm and we said, okay, we're not letting that happen because we know that the reason why they wanted to take us out of the system is because they wanted to poach freely in there.

Starting point is 02:20:11 So since Antoine was shot, we only lost three, and all that were from Mozambicans. So that's about in the last two years almost? In the last two years, yes. And were those all rhinos or was there an elephant in there? No, it was rhinos. Up to this far, the only challenge that we're having, it's rhinos. So it was Mozambicans and they were shot right next to the boundary

Starting point is 02:20:43 between us and Kruger National Park because we don't have we are in an open system we don't have fences right so they seem to might have came from Mozambique and walked across Kruger which is not a short distance into our block and quickly went back now is Mozambique is that like a major, I don't know, what's the word I'm thinking of? Like entry point? But no, is that a major hotspot where a lot of these syndicates are based out of? Yes, most of them are from Mozambique. We have those that we call, you know, they're coming from local communities,

Starting point is 02:21:27 but it's the guys from Mozambique, those who came so that they can operate from the close range. Then they came to find spots to maybe book or rent a place to stay for the time being, close by, so that it's a walkable distance from there to the park and back. And we often see the locals as well joining those group of Mozambicans. We find that within a group of three, maybe there is two Mozambicans you find that within a group of three maybe there is two Mozambicans and one local guy and as time goes on you find that the guy was operating with those Mozambicans he has learned the tricks now so he's gonna go

Starting point is 02:22:15 and find maybe two or three locals and but yeah most of them are there from Mozambique as you can see even those uh guys those who were arrested on on that clip they they were from Mozambique but uh they said that they they were renting a place somewhere close by now we we can't show this on this episode what I'm about to talk about because it'll get demonetized and then no one will see it because it's too long and all that stuff but you know I know i've talked about this a bunch with ryan something that certainly affected him but when when they do poach these rhinos it's particularly nasty how they do it i mean it's awful that they're killing any anything in the first place but how they do it particularly offends my soul because technically if you wanted to get a

Starting point is 02:23:08 rhino horn there's a way to do it and you don't you shouldn't be fucking getting it but you know there's a way to do it where you don't kill the rhino you do it right i forget ryan said it might take like a half hour or something like that you get the horn off you know you dart the rhino get the horn off and then you know it wakes up and at least it's still alive but these guys don't have a half hour because they're worried about guys like you coming after them and so they go and they they hack its face off i mean there's no better way to put it unfortunately and and they create that they're not even kind enough usually to put the animal out of their misery. When they finish, they just leave it there to bleed out for some time. As Ryan said, it could be like three, four hours before they even die.

Starting point is 02:23:57 And there's something about that that is so like – to me it's like the ultimate fuck you from these guys that just shows you how evil they are because if you see these images and I would encourage people as hard as that is to go, you'll see some of it in the documentary after the fact, but there's also images and there's videos on YouTube that will show you this where, where you see, sometimes you'll see like a calf of a baby Rhino next to the mother Rhino. That's just dying.

Starting point is 02:24:20 Like, you know, I got to imagine that's not something that ever obviously gets comfortable to see. But like every time you come upon something like that, it's got to affect you every time. No, like it doesn't it doesn't get old, if you will. It does. Every time you you walk into a carcass, you you feel like you have lost your family member you you don't get used to that you don't get used to seeing that so and with how like

Starting point is 02:24:53 as you've said with the cruelty how the guys are doing it I mean it's it's it's It's something else. It's heartbreaking. And you don't want to see that. And it's the reason why we're going that extra mile because we don't want to see that. We're out there trying to do our best to protect the rhinos or wildlife in general. But every day if you come into a situation like that, you feel like you have failed to deliver. It breaks you. But then it makes you to be stronger to make sure that you don't want to see that again. So, yeah, but it's not a nice scene to

Starting point is 02:25:48 to be seeing a dead rhino lying there i mean it's well not a dead rhino but a pushed one yeah it's it's a very very heartbreaking and the elephants when they take the tusks off sometimes they'll just take the whole thing i mean it's just yeah you can, you can't take a tusk like you can a rhino horn. It's not a humane way to do that. No, it's horrible. I mean, it's like in the film. We tried to be sensitive to make it not overly gory and not show a rhino actually being poached.

Starting point is 02:26:17 And we never captured that. But I think especially when trying to show why these men and women are risking their lives to this extent. You need to see what the stakes are. And so we did show some carcasses, and we have one rhino that was poached but survived. And there's some amazing wildlife vets that have just developed some incredible ways to try and heal some of these wounds. I mean, when you see it, it's, it's kind of unbelievable. Like you said, these, these poachers will hack the horn off below the roots

Starting point is 02:26:51 just to try and get every little bit they can for that extra money. And it's, it's such a, you know, they're in such a hurry that they're, they're not worried at all about the rhino. And it's, I think that really does, uh, it just really inflames that anger within you and makes you pretty pissed off at what these guys are doing. You know what it reminds me of when I see the ones who, I guess, fortunately survive? They basically leave them like Harvey Dent. Seriously. Like Two-Face in Batman, where one side of the face is

Starting point is 02:27:27 human, and the other side, you can literally see the skull. It's horrible. And it's horrible to look at. Yeah, it's heartbreaking. But the efforts to save the rhinos that are poached have been important because the poaching has just declined the population so low

Starting point is 02:27:43 that if we can save them and then put them back into a breeding cycle and continue, you know, populating rhinos, it's important, even if it's, you know, tough to see, to try and save them if they can. But yeah, it's terrible. And then like the orphans, like you're saying, we feature some of that as well. But, you know, these little baby rhinos i mean it the they'll come up on a a carcass of a mother and sometimes the little baby is like half inside the the rotting carcass just trying to like cuddle up with their dead mom and it's like yeah to hear some of those stories it's yeah it kind of makes you want to go out there and hurt people.

Starting point is 02:28:26 Yeah. It's pretty intense. There used to be an exhibit, I believe it was at the Brooklyn Zoo, years and years ago. This had to be like 1930s, something like that, where it was called the most dangerous animal in the world. And it was a mirror. Yeah. So that when a human looked in the mirror, they could understand, you know,

Starting point is 02:28:49 the capability that we have. And, you know, in this story, that's the wild thing. We see the great, and then we see the worst, too. We're seeing good and evil. But, you know, I think it's important for people, like I said, to at least see it.

Starting point is 02:29:07 So as bad as that is, they can understand it. I know when I've shown it to some of my family members who had no familiarity that any of this was going on. I mean I'm not even talking about people who are like animal lovers and there's something in you that just goes, wait a minute. Like that's a dinosaur. They're doing that too. That's like one of the most majestic things on the earth. And it definitely pisses you off. But we had mentioned it a little bit ago. I didn't want to forget about it. Marianne and is it Ruben? Ruben. Yeah. Okay. So there are a couple that you cover in this film. And I also want to talk about the other one who

Starting point is 02:29:39 tragically died. Martin M. Tembu. Yeah. So we'll get there but these two what's what's their backstory how did how did they how did they end up doing yeah so both of them have a military background i think they met when they were in the military actually that makes sense yeah and she's uh marianne is an incredible shooter as well ruben would always tell these stories about how guys would come up to him be like all right why don't you why don't we have a shoot-off and he'd be like you're like why don't't you go have a shoot-off with my wife? And they'd make a bet with some money, and then they'd go, okay, yeah, yeah. And then they'd go, and she would just crush them.

Starting point is 02:30:15 And then they'd come back with their head hung low. But, yeah, they had a military background. Ruben, he always says he's been, you know, he loved the military, but what he loved the most is developing people. And so I believe he did some training while he was in the military. to your door. A well-marbled ribeye you ordered without even leaving the kiddie pool. Whatever groceries your summer calls for, Instacart has you covered. Download the Instacart app and enjoy $0 delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees, exclusions, and terms apply. Instacart, groceries that over-deliver. Terry, of other soldiers, I think he was in cavalry and he actually rode horses and

Starting point is 02:31:05 yeah, just incredible stories. And so at some point he got connected to the Bureau of Natural Resources, I think is what it was called there, and started training rangers and really got connected to that world. And I think what really inspired him too was just like the amazing work that these men and women were doing, but also the lack of resources they had in training. And so he just kind of went full on, you know, developing this training for rangers because there really wasn't a strong curriculum and method for ranger training, like bringing that, bridging that conservation work together with the paramilitary and all the things that rangers have to do so he and marion really worked hard she eventually came in and helped create the

Starting point is 02:31:50 actual manuals and started working more closely after ruben had gotten in and at a certain point they just they ended up leaving or they they lost their jobs with the Bureau of Natural Resources, and they wanted to continue doing this work, so they started African Field Ranger Training Services, their own company, and started being contracted to train rangers all around Africa. And that's when eventually... All around all of Africa. Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 02:32:18 It was like, because I think Ryan, I spoke with Ryan a little bit, Ryan Tate, and he had worked up in Tanzania and knew Wayne Lauder, who tragically was assassinated as well, similar to Anton's situation. Oh, is that the guy who was in the middle of the street? He was in, I think he was in a taxi either coming to or from the airport in Dar es Salaam. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, they just shot him right there in the car. Yeah. And yeah, they just shot him right there in the car. And their organization, Pam's Foundation, he and Chrissy Clark, they had contracted AFRTS to come train.

Starting point is 02:32:52 And Martin Mtembu was the one that was up there. And this was their partner in this training. And so Martin was this incredible trainer that Ruben met. I think Ruben met him early on and he was supposed to be his interpreter or something. And he was like, this guy shouldn't be an interpreter. Like this guy knows what he's doing. And he's like, he was also a soldier. And so they really connected and he ended up bringing him in as a trainer and then became really good friends and started this company. And he became a partner of it and just became Ruben and Marion's like close, one of their closest friends.

Starting point is 02:33:31 Now, how did they determine who, so they're now they're private and you said they train Rangers all over Africa. So does the government send specific like heats to them, if you will, of people or is it randomized? Like what Rangers they end up training? I mean, I think it depends on what organization they're connected with. So, you know, they trained a lot of rangers for Kruger National Park in South Africa. So they would contract them out and say, hey, we have, maybe they need a selection. They need this many rangers. We'll pull from a group of, you know, a couple hundred. We need 30.

Starting point is 02:33:59 And you'll run them through this selection process. And then once they get through, then you train them, you know, however many weeks, 12 weeks or so to become a ranger for us. So they would get contracted out by all these different reserves or parks and different organizations to come in and do the ranger training there. And they would just basically set up camp and run their course and run the people through it so they can hire the rangers into their system and so you guys were filming with these guys it seems like since the beginning like even when there were some of the rough cuts or was that where they did they come in in like more 2018 yeah so i mean matt had worked with ruben marion at the southern african wildlife college that's how he got connected to

Starting point is 02:34:40 them he went and studied there and then ended up helping train rangers with them. So essentially this organization AFRTS that Ruben and Marion created eventually was purchased or bought by the Southern African Wildlife College and kind of absorbed into it somewhere around, I think 2015 or so, maybe a little bit earlier. And so that's how we captured this selection. It was at the wildlife college, but there is some old footage with martin in it and that was shot in 2011 i think and it was it was kind of archival footage before we got involved another amazing guy phil hutting who just passed away back in i think it was january or no end of the year i was at his memorial in january but he'd become great friends with ruben and marne and shot conservation films all over the world, but did a lot of stuff for, um, AFRTS Ruben's organization. So we,

Starting point is 02:35:32 we just lucked out when we were there in 2018, this Phil was visiting Ruben and had this hard drive full of all this footage of Martin because before that we had nothing for his story other than a few photos. When did he pass again uh martin yeah he passed in 2014 i believe and that was just a car accident yeah it was just a tragic car accident and the roads are i mean everywhere in the world i feel like more people die from freaking car accidents yeah but there's nothing sinister there i mean no i mean i think you know people were concerned about that as a possibility but i don't think there was ever really any evidence that anything sinister happened. But when Martin died, that's when Matt, you know, he was very close. Martin was a huge mentor of

Starting point is 02:36:14 Matt Lindenberg's. And Matt wanted to do something to carry on his legacy and to support the Rangers in this development of local population to become leaders, kind of following in Martin's footsteps. And through that, he got this idea to create Global Conservation Corps and to shoot some videos to tell the rangers' stories. And I don't think he ever knew that this was going to snowball into a huge film over the years, but it's all because of Martin passing away that this project initially started.

Starting point is 02:36:42 Okay. Now, Orlat from like a funding perspective where where did where are you guys sourcing a lot of things right now or or how how can people help like is is there a website where all the information is there. All right, we'll have that link in the description. Remind me to do that. Yeah, yeah. And because Timbavati is a non-profit organization,

Starting point is 02:37:21 I mean, yeah, there is a lot of difficulties, I mean, in terms of finances and all that so any donations I mean it goes a mile I mean in terms of making us to to do what we're doing now to keep the team poverty running yeah we the Timbawati running. Yeah, we appreciate anything from technology to anything. In fact, basically, it's more than welcome because that's what we want. Any support that we get, we really appreciate it. The technology is a huge, huge point. Like that could be such a game changer for you guys. I'm just thinking about that, if we could get your funding on that.

Starting point is 02:38:07 But you also have been talking earlier about how it's hard because so many poachers can then get turned or go the wrong way. What are you, from a vetting perspective, when you're just getting candidates coming in, what are you guys doing to try to figure out like who might be good and Who might not or is it really just a guessing game? We we have What we call a lie detector test, which is a policy that we have implemented cool Lie detector test or deception policy

Starting point is 02:38:48 Where we we we test the guys before and even when you have been employed, you know, we just do it randomly to scan if you haven't been approached and got involved into this war that's going on. You're sort of like providing information or you might have shot a rhino into this war that's going on. You're sort of like providing information or you might have shot a rhino because there are those that we say they are rangers, but when they're out there,

Starting point is 02:39:15 they shoot those rhinos themselves instead of going out to protect them. So we've got that in place to always keep arrangers clean. And you always keep the arrangers second-guessing to say that, I don't know when am I going to be called in for that. But if you have the right guys, you've got nothing to worry about because even if you can call them today and tomorrow and whenever you know the results will come will always come back clean

Starting point is 02:39:49 but the reason why we're doing that is to check if those that we we having they haven't turned into something else and if you're able to pick that up then the organization's they've set a rule to say that if you fail for the first time then they might give you a second chance because you know it's it's a machine it might not be 100% they might do you the second test but But if you failed it, then unfortunately they terminate your contract. And it's the reason why we lost those few guys back then, those that they were planning to take myself and Anton out of the system. It's because they were part of this.

Starting point is 02:40:45 And because they failed their polygraph, then they thought myself and Antoine, we had something to do with that. And that's why we became their targets. They thought you guys used their polygraph. We manipulated the results because we wanted to get rid of them.

Starting point is 02:41:06 And is there a reason why they wanted? It was more like a revenge to them to say that you made us lose our job. So now we want to make you lose your life. Yeah. Whoa. That's pretty wild. I mean, a lot of these reserves implement these integrity tests. And even in the selections at the end, it's part of the weeding out process. And at first I was

Starting point is 02:41:30 kind of skeptical. I'm like, lie detectors, you know, they're not perfect, but I feel like a lot of these guys kind of swear by them as, you know, you give them a couple of chances, but it seems like with this much corruption, there's not too many options. And you might have someone you think is the perfect ranger and then turns out they're poaching rhinos. So, yeah, I don't know. There's no easy answer, but I think a lot of it's building good trust and relationships, but it's tough in an environment like this. Are there people of note high up or higher up in the South African government right now

Starting point is 02:42:09 who are really taking this seriously and are obviously not corrupt on the issue and are trying to help? And if so, like, what are they doing? What actions are they taking? Yeah, I wouldn't call myself an expert on the South African government. But, you know, I think there are a lot of people trying to make efforts. But oftentimes, it's just I don't think it's a big priority. There's so many other issues that wildlife crimes is pretty low, unfortunately, on the list.

Starting point is 02:42:37 Yeah. And again, this is one, you know, you guys are one bite of the pie on a pie of a country that then is a bite of the pie on the pie of a whole continent. So it's like these changes, it's amazing to see what you're doing. It's amazing to see what VetPol is doing and organizations like that to set standards across the board that hopefully can be replicated by a bunch of other great little divisions, if you will, to help combat this problem across the continent. But, you know, the challenges, obviously, there's all kinds of socioeconomic challenges there that we've laid out. And there's certainly headwinds with the fact that you have corruption and you have syndicates buying people off. And we haven't even talked about, you know,

Starting point is 02:43:24 some of the money on the back end of this. But, you know, the 500-pound elephant in the room, no pun intended, is that, you know, you have sometimes people as high up as in like the government in China who are on the other end buying this stuff. There's a story. I think we were actually at a United for Wildlife event. I'm trying to think when this was, the end of 2022 or somewhere around there we were presenting. But they pulled up the fact that they had caught this major player in, I think they were selling monkeys from Cambodia to people in the States for like testing either medical or whatever. And the guy was like one of, I think it was one of the heads of the environment in Cambodia. He was on his way to a CITES event in Panama, which is like, you know,

Starting point is 02:44:12 where everyone comes to talk about how we're going to regulate trade of illegal wildlife and all this stuff. He was coming to represent Cambodia and they had been tracking him for a while. I think U.S. Fish and wildlife was involved and they knew you know they had all these things linking him to it and so when he landed in jfk they apprehended him there and arrested him and brought him in and i think they charged him in the u.s um i don't i don't know what his current status is but but yeah it just goes to show i mean it's like people are making money at the top and it's it it's at every level and it's just yeah super unfortunate there's literally stories of like a bunch of chinese diplomats coming into countries for

Starting point is 02:44:53 meetings and then like they come in and they have a big yacht and they'll take the little tugboat out to the yacht after they're done and they got like rhino horn and and ivory like in their luggage and stuff and they're smuggling it out and it makes it really tough when you have in that case and there's other countries that are doing this obviously but you have the second most powerful country in the world the people who are literally in the government they're like untouchables and they just come in here and do it and they don't give a fuck they're like like i've heard stories that they just they want a rhino horn on their table to act like they got a bigger dick in business yeah i mean that's just and there's a line in

Starting point is 02:45:35 your documentary i think ruben said it where he's like the goal here is to i can't do his accent the accent is really hard it's a different, I got to practice my South African accent. Shout out to Leo for doing that in Blood Diamond. That was hard as shit. But, you know, he's like, they're trying to take them down until they're gone because then it'll be worth way more. Yeah, yeah. And I'm just like, really? Like, because then it'll just eventually be gone, period, because everyone will lose their

Starting point is 02:46:03 rhino horns. But then it's extremely rare at that point. You know, there's only so much of it. There was, I think there's Dr. Johan Murray, who we have in the film, and he's talking about Hope, the rhino that's poached and survives. Yeah. But I had interviewed him on the podcast, and he was saying, I think they were connected to some people that were going over to, I think they were going to China, and they were trying to talk to people that were selling this illegally kind of on a, you know, black market. And they were talking to some guy that was, had his own little setup. And he's like, uh, I think they were saying like, uh, something about the rhinos and how many are left. He's like, he said the same exact thing. He's like,

Starting point is 02:46:38 I can't wait until there's no more rhinos. Cause then my horn is going to be worth so much. Yeah. And it's just like i think for him it was completely heartbreaking he's like if people if that's people's mentality then how are we going to combat this and that's that's a whole other topic is demand reduction and trying to create pressure in places like china or vietnam for rhino horn specifically to to change the mindset of people using it or buying it but at at a certain level, I feel like some of these super rich people, it's going to be, yeah. I mean, that's what Ryan did in his undercover work.

Starting point is 02:47:11 He went with these people and you'd have to see it. You know, they'd walk them into like a, they'd walk them into like an attic of just ivory everywhere with bloodstains still on and everything. He's got to act normal because, you know, he's undercover buying for a rich guy. But they just it's just a product it's just you know and it's very hard especially when you have it culturally ingrained it's very hard to change those attitudes that's the real headwind there but they're not the ones that have to deal

Starting point is 02:47:38 with the consequences as much as the people that they're taking it from but listen man your film is amazing i i really appreciate you guys coming here and telling the story. And Orlatt, you know, you've obviously, you're in the film, and this is part of your life story too. So I appreciate you sharing your perspective on that as well. And it certainly seems to me like you're you're doing your buddy anton's legacy a solid by by the bravery by the bravery you're showing doing the job you do so thank you for what you do and and hopefully people out there listening will not only check out this documentary

Starting point is 02:48:17 rhino man link will be in description but also check out and figure out how to help you out at timbavati as well i i think that would be really, really cool because you guys are obviously doing great work. Thanks a lot. I really appreciate you having us here. And, yeah, we're glad we made it. We shared our side of the story. So just to confirm that this is not something that has been manipulated, but it's something that

Starting point is 02:48:45 we we're facing on on our daily basis it's it's this is the the real uh life of arranger when we out there these are the challenges that we're facing every day so yeah um like as we said people need to go and watch it so that they can because back then i understand maybe there is few that understand what arranger is but uh you might find that a lot of people doesn't even know what to go and watch it so that they can because back then i understand maybe there is few that understand what a ranger is but uh you might find that a lot of people doesn't even know what a ranger is well stay safe keep your family safe as well i hope we can get some resources on that too it's very scary and later thanks so much for doing this today you did an amazing job and your cousin was an amazing guy anton so it's it's cool to see you

Starting point is 02:49:26 here as well for the for the premiere of the documentary and and again shout out to prince william and the royal family for giving this some attention i hope that continues to happen that could be really really cool yeah and so it'll be available on like amazon apple google you know you can go on there rent it and link in description the description. Yeah, we'll put links. Please watch it and share it with your friends. Next time you see a Ranger, tell them thank you. All right. Thank you guys so much. Everybody else, you know what it is.

Starting point is 02:49:53 Give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace. Thank you guys for watching the episode. Before you leave, please be sure to hit that subscribe button and smash that like button on the video. It's a huge help. And also, if you're over on Instagram, be sure to follow the show at Julian Dory podcast or also on my personal page at Julian D. Dory. Both links are in the description below. Finally, if you'd like to catch up on our latest episodes, use the Julian Dory podcast playlist link in the description below. Thank you. you you Thank you.

Julian Dorey Podcast - #232 - Royal Family-Backed Ranger Murdered During Documentary | John Jurko & Orlat Ndlovu

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