Julian Dorey Podcast - #233 - Army Commando, Col. Greg Gadson

Starting point is 00:00:00 I remember first starting Johnson's like, hey, sir, we got to go. We got to go. I was like, OK, we're going to we're going to go. And so if I was time to go, I was in a I say melancholy disposition because I was really just still kind of trying to process the death of these young men. I'm like, we can make a difference over here. I mean, we got guys getting killed every day. And this is this all this sacrifice worth it. These flood of thoughts are going through my head as I'm heading back to my headquarters.

Starting point is 00:00:26 And then it's like, bam, you know, I got hit by a command detonated IED. So when I say command detonated, this was triggered by someone. It wasn't buried and it wasn't random. It was buried in the ground and there was a wire to it and there was a spotter and there was a trigger man. And when my vehicle went over it, they exploded. How many guys were guys were in the vehicle five of us the blast blew me out of the vehicle i remember kind of going through the air and hitting the ground my vehicle kind of continues sputters on before it eventually stops but i don't i don't see it the last thing that that i said julian i said God I don't want to die here

Starting point is 00:01:05 hey guys if you're not following me on Spotify please take a second to hit that button and leave a five-star review it is a huge huge help to the show you can also follow me on Instagram and on X by using the links in my description thank you Colonel Greg Gadsden thank you so much for being here sir you're welcome thanks for having me it's an honor It's an honor to have you. And John and I, John Rondy, who's joining us in studio from the On the Rocks podcast, did an amazing podcast with you a couple months ago. And so sometimes the two of us will talk about like titles and thumbnails and go back and forth. So when that one came out, we started working on your thumbnail.

Starting point is 00:01:41 I turned on the podcast. And after about five minutes, I was like, John, we got to bring this guy on. This guy's great. So if you don't mind today, I'd really like to go through your full story because you served for a long time in the military. You were a West Point guy with our friend, Jim DiIorio as well. So where did you grow up and how did you end up at West Point? So I grew up in what I call Tidewater, Virginia. I lived both in Norfolk and Chesapeake. Actually, I was born in Oklahoma when my parents were in college. I lived in Washington, D.C. when they were at Howard University.

Starting point is 00:02:21 But I don't really have any memories of that. I lived in upstate New York and Rochester and Buffalo. But my father settled down as a hospital pharmacist in the Tidewater, Virginia area. And so I think from nine or 10 years old on, I was down in that neck of the woods. And so I kind of call that, that's home for me, where I spent most of my childhood.

Starting point is 00:02:47 It was, you know know football was my game I you know I like a lot of kids wanted to grow up and you know play professional football and and so to that ends I you know I tried to to work hard and you know do all the things I needed to do to give myself that opportunity, you know, try to stay on top of my books and, and, you know, just work hard. And, and, you know, so part of my game plan was to win a, you know, to earn a college football scholarship at a division one school. And, and it's, it all seemed to be falling into place. I was a first team, all state in Virginia. And, and it looked like Virginia had made a commitment to offer me a scholarship, University of Virginia. And that's where I thought I was going. And kind of at the

Starting point is 00:03:32 last second, they decided that they wanted me to walk on. They said they had some different position priorities. And bottom line is they weren't willing to take an initial chance on me. And so I didn't have a plan B. A coach named Ted Gill, who was at Army at the time, came to my high school to recruit a classmate and friend of mine. And my coach happened to mention my name to him, like, you know, here's a good kid, good football player, you know, still looking for an opportunity to go somewhere. And so this recruiter is from West Point. So I took a visit up to West Point. I hadn't heard of it, didn't know what it was, didn't know what it was all about, but it was an opportunity to play Division I football.

Starting point is 00:04:26 I knew that I learned that I would have to go in the Army afterwards. Yeah, just a little thing right there. So, you know, I think it was a stark point that I wasn't going to be a professional football player. But that was okay. I was, I would say I was admittedly fired up and I had a chip on my shoulder because I wanted to prove that I could play football at the highest level. So it didn't matter. The pro career didn't matter anymore. It was, I'm going to play, you know, football with the big boys. And, and so I decided I was going to go there.

Starting point is 00:05:04 I mean, I decided to go there. How late was this recruiting process? Is this like second half of your senior year? This is February of my senior year, January, February, last minute. And, uh, you know, so it, you know, a lot of times people are starting to get into the academies. They're starting well over a year out. Anyway, I don't have an appointment from a congressman. And admittedly, my SATs weren't the best. I had a decent GPA. And so with all that, they recommended and sent me to the prep school. So I had to enlist in the Army.

Starting point is 00:05:47 So, you know, in process, the army down at Fort Dix, New Jersey. And at the time the prep school was at Fort Monmouth, New Jersey. So my first duty station in the army is right here in New Jersey. There we go. Love that. Good old Fort Monmouth. I did, uh, I did a year through there, got my, uh, got my appointment from my local congressman and I got into West Point. And so I would letter all four years. I don't know if that's even a big deal now, but I lettered all four years and started about two and a half seasons

Starting point is 00:06:18 and finished up. We had two bowl games while I was there. My freshman year and my senior year were the bowl seasons we had. Three out of the four seasons that I was there, we had, you know, had winning seasons. That's awesome. Yep. What about the experience, though? Because, as you said, this is like a last-minute thing.

Starting point is 00:06:42 It seems like, and correct me if I'm wrong, you hadn't, like, up about like, I want to be in the army, fight for America. But now you're going to the holy grail of our military essentially. And you're there for four years, you're playing football, you love that. But what effect did that have on you like as an American or someone who was literally preparing to potentially sacrifice their life for the country? Yeah. I wish I could say I was, I mean, I was all bored. I knew that I was going to serve in the military. Definitely not planning to make it a career. I was going to, you know, I had my motto was five and fly. We have a five-year service obligation upon graduation, and I was going to do my five years. And guess what? I wanted to get out and go be a football coach. That was, I still love the game.

Starting point is 00:07:35 It just is in my blood. And so that was sort of my initial thought as I was there. The best thing that happened to me while I was there was that I met my future wife and my classmate. As of May of this year, we've been married for 35 years. Oh, congratulations. We've got a daughter and a son and six grandkids, three boys and three girls. That's awesome. That's cool.

Starting point is 00:08:11 So your wife is there too. So she served. How long was she in the military? She was in for five years. She honestly really loved it. I was not, I didn't fall in love with the military until maybe around year five or, or I say tick inventory of, of myself and said, I, I like what I'm doing. You know, wasn't sure I was going to make it a career, but, um, you know, I, I tend to, if I'm enjoying something, if I'm doing something I like, then, you know, I stick with it. Yeah. And that was, you know, that was sort of my game plan.

Starting point is 00:08:50 And I said, you know, I'd take it one year at a time. And finally when I got to year 13, I said, okay, I'm going to go to 20. And then I'm going to get out. I do not want to do this my entire life. And then, you know, then of course I got wounded at year 17. And so that, that changed my trajectory a little bit. That's such a, and that's so like, you've been in there for so long too. We're definitely going to get there today and talk all about that. But you know, what's funny, I've had, as I said,

Starting point is 00:09:19 our mutual friend, Jim DiIorio in here so many times. And we talk a lot about West Point. But one of the things I don't think I've ever really dug deep with him on is the education there from a military perspective. Right. Right. Because it's obviously a very historical fort, dates back to Revolutionary War. They turned it into the preeminent military college for America. But, you know, you're not just, it's not like you're just going there and learning math and reading and stuff and like a normal college education, like I got or something, you're going there and you're also learning about the way I understand it, like the history of warfare, how modern warfare is fought, obviously skills and tactics for the battlefield. Like,

Starting point is 00:09:58 can you explain some of that and what the, what the classes were like and how the, how the breakdown worked? Yeah. Well, when Jimmy and I were there, it's quite a bit different now, I guess, because we couldn't even have majors. They have majors now. The kids graduate with majors. We graduated with what they call a field of study and actually a Bachelor of Science. So, you know, I would have in a regular college, I would have probably been a history major, but we had so much science that we all graduated,

Starting point is 00:10:39 all of our diplomas say Bachelor of Science. Right. I don't care if you wanted to be, art was your thing. You graduated with a Bachelor of Science because you took so much math and engineering courses. That was, and that was sort of the basis in the history of the military academy. It was an interest, the top officers in the army were engineer officers and artillery officers because of the science behind it. Does that almost hold you back from like the real world? Like, so post four years, when you do serve, getting a real job, do you feel like you made a, you might've not learned

Starting point is 00:11:10 things that other college graduates did? Not at all. You know, as somebody that's not even, I say not biased for the sciences, that's not my thing. When I look back and reflect back at the discipline of the sciences, you know, what you really do is you become a problem solver. You become analytical. You learn to break down problems. Because, you know, in the real world, that's what we do. I mean, how many of us literally end up doing anything that has to do with the degree? Right. And, you know, if we're Lee, we're part of an organization, you know, you know, my entire life, I got paid to solve problems, deal with issues. You know, we need to go from here to here.

Starting point is 00:11:55 We need to think through it. We got to have, it's about processes. And, and, you know, that education became the fundamental underlying education that I, whether I consciously or unconsciously knew, just, you know, you analyze a and what they do, they're all successful because you guys, obviously they instill intense discipline in you, but I would agree with what you just said. The most important thing in the real world, if you could put it down to one thing outside of discipline is going to be like solving problems. So if you can simplify things and get to the core of what's at hand, like you're probably going to be successful at what you do.

Starting point is 00:12:43 But as you said, you know, you ended up carrying this into this long military career. And I think one of the things that I'm often confused on and a lot of civilians are confused on is how they distinguish someone who is just going and enlisting in the army and not going to West Point versus the training you get for four years at West Point to then come out and, you know, you, I think usually like you're a lieutenant, like, how do you decide all that when you're at West Point? Well, well, it's, that's all decided. You don't, I mean, you, you, you work hard and you, you know, you get to, you, you hope to choose your branch or which field. So I was a fuel artillery officer. I don't know, was Jimmy a fuel artillery or was he infantry? I can't remember. But you choose your branch and then you try to pick your first duty station,

Starting point is 00:13:34 that kind of block. But realize that the ROTC program or Reserve Officer Training Corps is the majority of the officers that are commissioned in all of our military. 70% of the officers that get commissioned come out of the ROTC program. about 20 to 25 percent and then the rest comes through uh OCS officer candidate school which are enlisted soldiers that can qualify can that that meet the educational requirements for being a commission officer can go through can go through OCS and um and become an officer so those are the three um kind of pools that that generate but the vast majority by a long shot is through regular colleges and the ROTC programs. In terms of, what was the other part of your question? Sorry. Which one were we on here? I guess the difference is between West Point grads versus regular enlistees slash R2C. Okay, so no, I mean, the fact is we went to a, you know,

Starting point is 00:14:51 we took the harder, maybe we took the harder road. I don't want to say the hard road. I think that's fair to say. It's a different road. Yeah. It's a little bit more austere, put it that way. It's not a party school. It's hard to get in.

Starting point is 00:15:04 It's competitive a party school. It's hard to get in. It's competitive. And but you know what? When we all get commissioned, whether ROTC or OCS or Service Academy, our butter bars say the same thing. We're exactly the same rank.

Starting point is 00:15:19 We're all in the same pot. We got to go prove ourselves and work hard. And just like everybody else said, you know, there ain't no easy road for you because you went through a service academy. In fact, sometimes it's, I don't want to say it can work against you, but it can be a challenge. You know, if you got somebody that's got, you know, got something against academy grads, maybe you're kind of going upstream a little bit. But that's life.

Starting point is 00:15:48 Yeah, yeah, you're always going to run into stuff like that. Now, enlisted soldiers that, you know, like you enlist, and you're kind of where the rubber meets the road. You're doing the basic level stuff. And as you progress up, you eventually can be promoted to a sergeant. And the sergeants are non-commissioned officers. They are the basis of our military. If there's one single reason why our military is better than everyone else's in the world. It's because of our non-commissioned officer corps. Today's video is sponsored by Aura, and it's a really important time to be talking

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Starting point is 00:17:10 And then you get bad actors like this who totally take advantage of it and ruin people's lives So if you weren't taking precautions with your personal information online before this should be a huge wake-up call And the great thing is i'm not too worried about it because I have Aura. Aura alerts me if they find my phone number, email, or social security number on the dark web. They're going to let me know fast if anyone tries to use this information to access my credit or banking accounts. And a nice kicker on the end is that Aura will give me up to $5 million in identity theft insurance should the worst case scenario happen. All you got to do is go to my link, aura.com slash Julian Dory, to try 14 days for free. That'll be enough time for Aura to find out if any of your personal data has been exposed. I highly recommend you do this right now because

Starting point is 00:17:55 not only is National Public Data not going to do anything to help you, but they probably aren't even going to face any repercussions for this leak. I'm not leaving myself vulnerable to data breaches, and if you don't want to either, you can go to aura.com slash Julian Dory to try 14 days for free by using the link in my description below. Yeah. Our non-commissioned officer corps, you know, a lot of people, great question because the military, we are not some kind of dictatorial, you know, left, right, left. I mean, you see the things on shows and basic training and all that. But we are a very adapt and adaptable organization. And so and why I say we are the best military is because our non-commissioned officers have latitude that most militaries don't have.

Starting point is 00:18:46 How so? And I say this, hey, look, we're an organization and we got a mission to do X. And the whole thing is no plan survives first contact. They have the autonomy. They have the intent. They have the training to adapt and overcome without going back and saying, hey, sir, you know, the enemy isn't here. What do we do next? No, those guys, they're professionals.

Starting point is 00:19:20 There was, I think it was General McChrystal. If I get this wrong, I'm going to ask my old boss who it was. But there was a speaking event that my old boss in my former career went to that he was really impressed by and I believe it was General McChrystal. This has to be like maybe 2016, 2017. The core of his talk was explaining the change in the U.S. military after 9-11. And what he was saying is that they basically allowed the different levels of the military to be empowered to make decisions. And that sounds exactly like what you were just describing. So is that something that you experienced change more like he was saying from 9-11 and before that it was less so? Well, I think, so the answer is kind of yes and no or both because when I got commissioned in General McChrystal's early career, we were training to fight the Soviet Union, you know, big forces on force, you know, the old kind of classic battles of, you know, lining up your army soldiers. And after 9-11, we were in, guess what?

Starting point is 00:20:27 We were in Vietnam again. We were in counterinsurgencies. And so the enemy wasn't lined up for us to duke it out. He was in the shadows. And so we had to, and that's where we had to adapt. We had to be able to operate in much smaller formations and be agile and, you know, a much more dynamic war. You know, it's not, you know, your uniform and my uniform are different.

Starting point is 00:20:53 And, you know, I want this land, you want this land, we're going to go at it. It's, this was, you know, this was the boogeyman stuff. And the nuance of the good people caught in the middle, i.e. the civilian populace. We're trying to build trust and confidence in them. The bad guys, the insurgents are threatening them. If you talk to the Americans, we're going to come back here and kill you at night. And so it's that, it's that battle. It's that, you know, it was really, it's the nuance of, of, of a counterinsurgency fight. You graduated in 88? 89.

Starting point is 00:21:34 89. Okay. So you're, you are coming out at the, what would be the tail end of the Cold War then, like you were saying. So I guess, when did the wall fall? 91? 91, I think. Yeah. Okay. 90 or 91. So that's still like kind of the focus right there. What happened when you first came out? Did you get deployed anywhere or were you on a base? Yeah, I was, I was like, my first duty station was Fort Sill, Oklahoma, and I would ultimately deploy the Desert Shield, Desert Storm from there. I was a platoon leader. Got it. And Desert Storm was in 91? 90, 91.

Starting point is 00:22:06 90, 91. So Desert Shields, we were deployed in 90, and then it evolved into Desert Storm when we invaded Kuwait to push the Iraqis out. So that's honestly like, I think because of the Iraq War later that happened, that's almost like blip that people forget about and what was going on there. Because this really set the course for what would end up being the Iraq War later that happened, that's an almost like blip that people forget about and what was going on there. Because this really set the course for what would end up being the Iraq War. But can you explain Desert Shield and what was going on there and specifically what your role was in it? Right. So I was, well, it was a coalition.

Starting point is 00:22:41 So it wasn't the United States operating unilaterally. We had a worldwide coalition. If you recall, Iraq invaded Kuwait. They take over their oil fields. And we said, you got to leave. And, of course, they wouldn't leave. And the UN authorized, you know, force. And so we built up, you know, forces. I know the Brits and Australians, a lot of coalition partners over there. I was a platoon leader in an eight-inch artillery battalion, so I had four self-propelled artillery pieces, and the ammo carriers, about 60 men were in my platoon.

Starting point is 00:23:33 What does that mean? How would you describe what that looks like? Like an artillery piece? Yeah, this was a big track vehicle with a heavy-ass tube, a 14,000-pound artillery tube. And we would shoot projectiles that weighed up to 207 pounds, almost 20 miles. We could shoot, was about a range. That'll do. Oh, shit.

Starting point is 00:23:57 Yeah. That'll do. Yeah, yeah. So you were in charge of, how big was your team again? About 60 men. Wow. Yeah, we had uh you know four weapon systems each crew was a it was a 13 man crew per per howitzer when you say crew are these

Starting point is 00:24:12 guys serving prior to you getting there yeah they were part of the unit they were the enlisted soldiers that uh you know the the privates the sergeants um so they've seen battle prior to you. Well, not in this case because we hadn't gone to war in a while. Okay, I understood. There were a few. In fact, one of my section chiefs or squad leaders was a Vietnam veteran from the Navy.

Starting point is 00:24:40 He had gotten out of the Navy and joined the Army. So literally there were, you know, if you out of a 500 or 600-man battalion, you were lucky if there were five Vietnam veterans that were still left in the Army. That's insane. Those Nam guys were built different. They just still wanted to fight. What's the movie, it might be Saving Private Ryan, where the guys are in the trenches

Starting point is 00:25:03 and the West Point grads come in and they're kind of like snarking at them. Band of brothers. Band of brothers. Was that sort of the tonality when you guys came in? You had like a chip on your shoulder? No, no. Yeah, that's probably a little dramatic. I didn't.

Starting point is 00:25:19 So one of the things that I, you know, philosophically, like, you know, I don't wear my West Point ring. I didn't have any stickers on my car. Nobody knew I went to West Point in the unit for, you know, none of my soldiers knew for probably six or seven months. Then they've, you know, someone eventually finds out and they're like, ah, you know, it's like, you know, so, and, and not that I'm ashamed of it, but I, you know, I wanted people, I wanted people to evaluate me for who I am, not for what they think I'm going to be. And so I've just always been, you know, let them let, let, let my, let my action speak, not, uh, not what anybody thinks about me. They didn't know I played football. They didn't know I did anything. I was just kind of this quiet guy that wants to, you know, don't make any fanfare, you know, let's get our work done.

Starting point is 00:26:13 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, people are going to respect that 100%. But did you have, like, other along the way, other West Point guys serving side-by-side with you, like during this time at all? I'm trying to think. I had one of my classmates. He eventually was in my battalion. I'm trying to think. There had to have been some other West Pointers in my battalion, but honestly, man, that's almost 35 years ago.

Starting point is 00:26:48 I can't remember. There were certainly some in my brigade. I know in one of the other battalions, one of my West Point squad leader when I got into West Point, a guy named Terrence Green, I think it's T. Green, Jimmy Dorrell probably knows. Oh, probably. Yeah. Jimmy Dorough probably knows. Oh, probably.

Starting point is 00:27:06 Yeah. He was in another battalion. So, again, we're 20%, 25% of the commission force. So we're not everywhere. I mean, so. It blows my mind the ROTC stat. And no disrespect to anybody, but that's sort of like the running joke when you see these guys on campus. Like, okay, man, you're doing your little trots here and you're never going to see actual battle.

Starting point is 00:27:32 And you're telling us now that most of the people that are serving – You're doing your little trots. Right, and I mean zero disrespect. But that's like the – they get memed because they're kind of like almost playing what is reality. And then they are actually the ones that are serving. Absolutely. I wonder for them if like they ever realized, I mean, they have to realize that, that they're going, they're going into ROTC almost with the assumption that they will see battle one day.

Starting point is 00:27:53 I, you know, it's hard to say. I mean, some, some think that, some want to do that. You know, we, you know, we never, the military never decides to go to want to do that. You know, we you know, we never does. The military never decides to go to war. Remember that everybody there's nobody in the military to raise his hand and says to the to our civilian government, let's go to war. Yeah, no, it's vice versa. The civilians are the ones that tell us that we're going to go. And and we just have to be prepared.

Starting point is 00:28:26 And hopefully that's what we continue to do well because it does a couple of things. It makes sure that we're ready so that we minimize the loss of life and limb and equipment, but it also hopefully keeps our adversaries, um, um, uh, from making, you know, poor decisions, um, that we end up having to, you know, go and fight. So. Yeah. I always, it, it ends up coming up in almost every conversation I have with a veteran. We always have to remember the clear line there.

Starting point is 00:29:09 It's like you guys are trained to do a job. You're trained to go there and be the best in the world if you're called upon. But it's not – you look at things like the Iraq War and stuff and people – there's a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking with that. But like that's not your fault. There's people in DC who voted on that and said you got to go. That's right. And your job is to be there. Our oath, our oath. And that's a great point, Julian is our oath is to support and defend the constitution. It's the constant, it's a, it's a document and it's, it's how our government works. It's not a person and never will be a person it's uh it's it's it's the constitution

Starting point is 00:29:46 yeah so you you're in desert shield you're in desert storm and desert storm was what like a few days it's pretty quick right yeah yeah it was uh well the the ground war actually was only four days yeah so you were in and out of there pretty much. Well, yeah. Well, no. I was there for six months, but the ground war was pretty quick. So you were stationed there after it was already settled? Is that the deal? Well, I say so. I deployed there in October, and I redeployed back in April.

Starting point is 00:30:22 Okay. Yeah. So it takes a lot to move. I mean, you know, it's like moving a small, I mean, formations. Battalions are, you know, 400 to 700 people and their equipment. You know, that stuff doesn't move quickly one way or another. Right. But the situation at least was settled if you

Starting point is 00:30:47 will quickly did you like because you're young at this point you're still what 25 something like that 24 25 yeah 24 yeah so you know obviously you're doing your job but are you thinking about at all like the geopolitical implications of what's going on? Like, is that starting to come in? Or are you still just kind of like, oh, no, we got to go do this. Let's take care of it. Yeah, no. I, at that point, I honestly would say no, I didn't.

Starting point is 00:31:15 It was pretty clear. I mean, you know, Iraq invaded Kuwait. So, you know, then they didn't want to leave. So that was probably the, of all the places that I deployed, that was probably the most black and white, the clears. So throughout the rest of the 90s, because we all think in terms of like Desert Storm and then 9-11, Afghanistan, Iraq. But there was a lot of stuff going on in the Balkans in the 90s because communism fell. The wall fell and Yugoslavia disintegrated. You know, the former Yugoslavia is now, what, seven different countries?

Starting point is 00:31:55 Yeah, six or seven. Yep. Yeah. So did you deploy to any of those places during this time? I did in 2002. I went to Bosnia. In 2002? Yep.

Starting point is 00:32:06 Now, Bosnia was where they had like a giant genocide, right? Yep. So this is the aftermath of that at this point? Yeah. So we went there as part of a UN force. It was called Security. I was part of, I think the number was S411, Securities Force 11, Security Force something, S411 was the designation. But we were there, again, part of a UN, a multinational division. And ironically, we had, the Russians were part of our division. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:32:49 How about that? What were they like to work with? They were kind of, how would I say, what's the right word? Consistent. Consistently, you know, like we used to make a joke because they would send a report up and i'd be like nothing significant report from y'all you know it's like every every report that they report was exactly the same every day so yeah but they're you know i i they were probably there keeping their eye on us or whatever yeah i wouldn't be surprised if we

Starting point is 00:33:24 weren't doing the same for them. But, yeah, we were actually on the same team. And you're right, great researcher on the history. We were basically keeping the two groups apart and trying to get them to kind of live in peace. But the other thing we were also doing was we were still identifying mass grave sites. We were still, we were still looking for persons that were indicted for war crimes. So, so we're literally looking for war criminals. So, so there were some, there were some active things that were, that were going on.

Starting point is 00:34:05 Did that involve like some sting type operations or even like plainclothes undercover type stuff? I don't think I really talk about that, but yeah. Fair enough. Yeah. Alessi, can you actually pull that up just for honestly like history? People should know the Bosnian genocide? Because there were multiple across, as you said, the Yugoslavian countries that broke up at the time. Croatia, Serbia.

Starting point is 00:34:34 Kosovo. Kosovo, Slovenia. Yeah, let's hit that first one, Lassie. Ethnic cleansing. Yeah, that's what it was. So this is a big number. So Bosnian genocide refers to both the Srebrenica massacre and the wider crimes against humanity and ethnic cleansing campaign throughout areas controlled by the army of Republika Spaska.

Starting point is 00:34:55 Probably said that wrong. During the Bosnian war of 92 to 95, the events in Srebrenica in 95 included the killing of more than 8,000 Bosniak Muslim men and boys, as well as the mass expulsion of another 25,000 to 30,000 Bosniak civilians by VRS units under the command of General Ratko Mladic, who I think, if we can click him, I think he was found guilty at the ICC, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:35:20 Did that guy... Yeah, I'm thinking of a different guy, but that – yeah, I remember that. Okay, so without going into what you specifically did for intelligence reasons there, obviously you're from America. We have our own problems here, but we don't have a genocide problem and stuff like that. People fight it out in Congress and things like that. People fight it out in Congress and things like that. When you get up close to something like this, where people literally have a hatred of each other on the basis of their identity, religious identity, if you will, and you witness things like mass graves and stuff like that, what did that do to you personally? Well, you know, what it said to me, first of all, was, first of all, you know, you think of Yugoslav and you're like, these people were living together in harmony. And then literally overnight, you know, just because we went to different, we had different religions, we're killing each other. Yeah. And I think it's a reminder of how tenuous, you know, a life can be,

Starting point is 00:36:33 but, you know, just it can flip overnight. It's scary. It's scary. It's scary to see. I mean, we've seen it in places in Africa, Burundi, and, I mean, you know, in Southeast Asia, Cambodia. I mean, you know, societies, I think sometimes people have to remember that we have to remember to get along and respect one another. And when we get polarized and we start blaming each other, we're never far away from anything like that.

Starting point is 00:37:19 Yeah, it kind of blows my mind when you really read through the last 80 years of history. You know, they say they say like never again after the nazi genocide but it is it has again a lot yeah you know yeah well world war one the last great war and then we got another one you know so and and um and here we are you know um that's why history is so important i mean and and and when we forget it, you know, the cliche is we're doomed to repeat it. Do you worry about, it sounds like you do, but do you worry about the polarization we've seen here where things are moving farther and farther apart? Yes and no. I mean, there are times that it seems that this is not good. But America, I tend to lean there.

Starting point is 00:38:10 America is, we can be fickle sometimes. And I think when the challenges truly present themselves, I think, and I hope, and I'm optimistic that we will, that we'll stand up and we'll band together. Because we're Americans first. And as long as we remember that, you know, we're not D's and R's, we're not red or blue, not North or South, we're Americans. You know, I tell people, you know, being at the military academy, we literally have someone there that represents every state of our union. We're a melting pot, a true melting pot. Those soldiers that I got to serve with for 26 years, I didn't ask them what their political affiliation is. I didn't ask them, you know, we had a job to do and it didn't matter what color or where you

Starting point is 00:39:05 were from. And, um, and so that's the basis of, of my optimism because I've seen, I've seen our best. I've seen what we can be. And I believe that we can be there. Uh, we can be that but you know it comes with work absolutely I think you know I love studying history too because I think

Starting point is 00:39:32 it repeats itself in different patterns obviously but we're kind of at this crux moment right now where if we can just

Starting point is 00:39:40 kind of I'm an optimist but if we can kind of slide through this error a little bit and you know no one does any shooting pun intended now literally yeah you know we will be all right and it's it's it's more like what scares me is that the world is very polarized too and that has unfortunately caused in this case right now multiple major wars going on that, you know, like it or not, the United States is at least involved in those discussions because we're

Starting point is 00:40:09 the leader of the world. Well, and you know what? We've, in some ways, we've become distracted, you know, and maybe that's why other countries says, you know, America's, you know, they're beating up themselves. So this is my opportunity to be aggressive. And so you're right. And so it is, our example is tremendous. And, you know, what's the saying?

Starting point is 00:40:40 Too much is given, much is expected. And, you know, we got to be, you know, the adult in the room. That doesn't mean we solve every problem or all the world's problems. But at the same time, a lot of people take our lead and some want to take advantage of that. So, you know, it's very challenging. I agree that we're in some challenging times, but, you know, I think we're always in challenging times.

Starting point is 00:41:19 I mean, every generation has faced challenges. The question is, are we going to be big enough to stand up to ours? Yeah. I was going to ask you that, too, from the different generation than us. Was there ever a moment in history that you felt like this nation was completely undivided and you can almost breathe for a little bit? Because something tells me that a lot of what we deal with now is enhanced because of the media, right? We say this country has never been more racist.

Starting point is 00:41:50 Well, that's just not true in every capacity of the word, right? That's right. We had different bathrooms for different people of different color. Now I think you ask individuals in real life, it doesn't seem nearly as bad as it once was, but was there ever a real time where it just felt completely blissful is obviously dramatic, but a little less dramatic than it is now? Oh, good question. Um, I, and John, it's hard to, it's, it's hard to answer that because you know i'm 58 when i was 48 when i was 38 you know my experiences were different so it's it's all kind of um it's sort of relative to my time but i i mean i think But I mean, I think it felt like, you know, it felt like the 90s were okay. But, you know, what's interesting is it depends on your perspective.

Starting point is 00:42:53 Right. I mean, you know, as an African-American, what about as a woman? I mean, maybe the 90s were still kind of, you know, we're still doing stupid, men were doing stupid stuff at work and all that kind of stuff. You know, so, again, just really it really depends on your perspective. You know, when I when I think about my life and I think about my parents lives and and, you know, what they had to endure and the kind of society that they grew up in right and and the kind of society i grew up in and the kind of society that my kids and my grandkids are starting to grow up in um yeah there is uh there's a there's been a huge change and a huge uh sort of improvement in some ways but but in other ways, like,

Starting point is 00:43:45 like Julian's talking about, you know, we're in these stovepipes of, of information and media and, you know, people go and, you know, go and find the media that they want to listen to. And that becomes the echo chamber for them versus, you know, I like to, I mean, I'm not going to buy anybody. I want to have some intellectual diversity and sort of let me think through and process, you know, what one's saying versus another. And, you know, I often say the truth sometimes lies in the middle.

Starting point is 00:44:26 I mean, nobody owns the truth. Julian, I used to do this with my soldiers. I would hold up a coin in front of them. And when I had my formation fall around, and they'd be in a circle, and I'd be in the middle of the circle. And I'd spin around with it and I said, look, I'm holding up a silver dollar here. And everybody knows I'm holding up a silver dollar, but everybody sees something different. You see a heads, you see a tails, you see a leading edge, you see a trillage.

Starting point is 00:45:04 Everybody's telling the truth, but they see something different. Yes, that's a tails. You see a leading edge. You see a trail edge. Everybody's telling the truth, but they see something different. Yes, that's a great point. And so that is sort of my way of just saying, you know, like whenever, you know, nobody has, it's just about perspective. And we've got to be able to respect each other for your perspectives. Yes. You know, how we grew up, where we grew up, and what things that we had to overcome and challenge and be respectful for that.

Starting point is 00:45:29 It's a great way to put it. I think on top of that, an issue is that we as human beings, we're just so naturally inclined to teams. And you know what it's like. People are trying to fool you towards the team. Like, oh, you agree with this, right? So you agree with the whole thing, right? And you are, that point you made is beautiful because i say it all the time if you look at the universal laws of physics one of them is for every action there's an equal but opposite reaction

Starting point is 00:45:54 which the idea is it creates an equilibrium in the middle and when you look across a whole litany of issues whatever they may be foreign policy domestic policy and everything in between there's some where you might be able to say oh it leans this way or leans that way with more litany of issues, whatever they may be, foreign policy, domestic policy, and everything in between, there's some where you might be able to say, oh, it leans this way or leans that way with more evidence. But on the whole, the populace of it, if you will, it really does fall in that nuanced middle. It's a complicated world where there's a lot of us. There's 8 billion of us on this planet. There's 350 million of us in this country. you know, and we're never going to agree on everything. So when people try to get into their accepted echo chambers that the internet honestly helps them find now, you know, I think that amplifies the problem more than maybe it

Starting point is 00:46:38 exists because, you know, like, like when, when the Trump assassination happened, right. Yep. Attempt. The next 24 hours were insane on social media. I'm in the media business, right? Of course, I'm like, holy shit, like watching all this. And then I was taking a bus back from Ocean City to New York. And when I got off in New York, I just took out my headphones and I had to walk like 10 blocks to the train station. And everyone was walking around. Things were okay. I didn't see one person like yelling at

Starting point is 00:47:09 another person about what just happened or anything. I got back to Hoboken, same thing. People are out on the patios having drinks or whatever. Not to say that what happened wasn't important, but like if you looked at social media, you would have thought it was World War V. And then when I looked at that, and this has been a common theme across different events that will happen, I'm like, all right, we're okay. It's not all like the guy that got 50,000 likes because he said the most extreme thing. Yeah. You know?

Starting point is 00:47:36 Yeah. And then I've actually tried to just sort of stay with it, but I've had some people, you know, there's some memes and all these. I was like, good. I mean, like hours after this thing has happened some minutes like all of this stuff like it's like come on man this is ridiculous so it's just it's so ironic when you speak about the ones that probably should have the biggest opinions as in like the military men you guys don't see color, whether it's race or political stance, yet the people that are literally not involved at all

Starting point is 00:48:10 have the biggest opinions, right? The ones that will never touch or see battle. They're the ones that think that they need, they have the need to express how they really feel. You guys are at the same, we serve one and it's the nation of the United States and we should all remember that. Yep. Thanks. Thanks, Johnny. That's a, that's a great, it's a great point the United States. And we should all remember that. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks, Johnny. That's a great point. You know, when you were talking about, and look, where we're challenged is we got to, again, we got to work together. You know, we have done well when, I say, when both the parties are working together. Yes. This one party or the other party being in complete power and coming up with

Starting point is 00:48:46 the solution is not really the answer. Because it's a temporary answer. When the power shifts, it's just going to go back the other way. And so the lasting solutions, the ones that we come up with together seem to be the best ones. You say no one's happy or everybody's happy, but I think there's 80% of us that are left or right of center, and then there's another 10% that there's nothing we can do. You can't win them one way or another. So let's work with the 80 there, and I think that's what, what we got to do. And so, um, but I, I, I tell people, people ask me and they hear me talk, you should run for politics. I'm like, I don't want

Starting point is 00:49:53 to run for dog catcher. I'm with you, unfortunately, that's where we're at. But you had mentioned like a few minutes ago when we're, when John was asking about a time where things felt pretty good, you mentioned the 90s. It's funny you say that just based on some of the logic you just gave. Obviously, Bill Clinton was a controversial guy and he was a magnet for things. However, that was a decade where the parties worked together. Absolutely. It was a great fucking decade. So say what you want about the personalities themselves, the Newt Gingrichs and the Bill

Starting point is 00:50:25 Clintons of the world. Bill Clinton was today, if you look at him politically- They govern. They govern. They effectively, that's the bottom line is they govern. And lately we've been characterized by gridlock because one party doesn't want to work with the other. It's like they're holding ransom.

Starting point is 00:50:42 And we keep reelecting them. I don't know why we keep doing that, but we need to stop reelecting these folks that we elect them to go there and govern. And so that expectation of governing to me is that we get along and work together. We just need to work together. We don't even have to like one another, but we need to work together. I mean, we need to stop vilifying one another. I mean, all these things get amplified in this social media echo chambers and you pick them. I've actually feel like I'm finding myself distancing myself away from that because it's just-

Starting point is 00:51:22 It's a good move. Yeah, more people should. You're not missing much. Like when some news goes down you're missing something but the rest of it i mean sometimes i'm like my guy you gotta walk outside like reading some of these things 50 cent memes can only take you so far yeah yeah but you you know you also had mentioned a little while ago some of the concept of like the so-called military industrial complex. And you're a guy who has sacrificed himself for the country, served for a long time. And like we were saying also earlier, there's a job to be done and you go where the mission is.

Starting point is 00:51:57 But on the civilian side, the political side, when you see the money, the maybe incentivization that pours in from public companies who have to reach quarterly goals, so they're incentivized to push things, when you see that maybe leading to persistent wars, what do you think of that? Do you think that's something we can ever stop or that's just kind of how it works? I'm not sure I would necessarily draw this sort of cause and effect between our military-industrial complex. And what I mean is, look, we've got to continue to modernize and develop weapons so that we stay ahead of the curve. And so, but there is not necessarily a cause and effect that developing that stuff is going to lead to war. I mean, I hope that that's not the, you know, hope that not the decision. I mean, look, I mean, Russia invaded the Ukraine. I mean, our industrial military complex didn't have anything

Starting point is 00:53:15 to do with that. I mean, if anything, I think the Russians may have miscalculated the fact how the West was going to respond. And, and they're like, I think they went like, Oh, cause I, I don't believe that they really thought that, that the West was going to, it was going to back the Ukraine.

Starting point is 00:53:34 I also think that honestly, I think that, that maybe it even caused China to pause. I mean, with, with respect to Taiwan. I'm just conjecturing this, but, oh, the Western world's back to Ukraine.

Starting point is 00:53:53 Well, and China had to say, well, geez, are they going to come back? Are they going to come and support Taiwan? And I got to think that at least it put them on pause. I'm guessing. I'll pull these things out. But, I mean, if you're an adversarial country, I mean, what is Iran, you know, what is Iran, you know, doing? You know, they, you know, Israel attacked and killed that, hit the, didn't Israel attack like a consulate or something?

Starting point is 00:54:34 And killed. The president was just in a helicopter cat. Yeah, they didn't have anything to do that. I think it was a consulate or something that they had hit. Did we go to that, Alessi? Yeah. Consulate, Israel hits Iranian consulate or something that they had hit. Did we go to that, Alessi? Yeah. Consulate? Israel hits Iranian consulate?

Starting point is 00:54:47 Yeah, somewhere. Maybe in Syria or something. But anyway, and then remember the Iranians, they launched a bunch of drones at Israel. And Israel shot them all down and then they like... They don't want to... Iran doesn't want to pick a fight with Israel. You know why? Because they know we're going to back them. Yeah, they know what will happen.

Starting point is 00:55:14 So they executed their fight back so they could say to the Republic they struck back and they'll print whatever. They'll make up some fictitious amount of battle damage assessment and they can you know back down yeah this especially with the russia ukraine one this is one of those from like goddamn we're stuck between a shit and a fart like it's bad because if you like i think isolationism is bad. You can't, that's not reality.

Starting point is 00:55:47 That's right. Okay. And we did that. We did that after World War I. And guess what? It didn't work out. Didn't work out. A hundred percent. And we're, it feels sometimes like we're going down, like, we don't need to be in Ukraine.

Starting point is 00:55:58 Well, you know, so during the Cold War, the Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union. Poland was the folder gap. That's the back door into Europe. Right. And so we're just saying we're going to give up the back door to invading Europe. You know, Hitler, when he invaded and took Czechoslovakia, everybody said, oh, let's leave him go. He's going to have that. What could possibly go wrong?

Starting point is 00:56:30 He'll stop, right? Who stops? Yeah. You know, is Putin going to stop? I think the one key difference I have to make there is that when this war happened, Putin's ass showed a little bit with the lack of military strength, right? Whereas Hitler, you know, scumbag that he was, they had an incredible military. And I would argue that at the time, they probably by technology and force had the best military

Starting point is 00:56:59 in the world. So I think there is a parallel to be made. And that's why I say like, you can't just let them do it. Right. But like, where do you draw the line? I guess more the point is like, are we going to keep sending $110 billion like every other week? That's where it gets a little crazy. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:57:16 That's where, you know, like, yeah, this is we're not just printing this money. Yeah. And so I understand there's a balance. But a balance, but the Ukrainians are fighting. They're fighting. We're not losing any blood over there. So as long as they're willing to fight, then I mean, I think we have to find, and I say we, the world, the Western world, has to find a way to continue to support that effort. It's a great point you make, though, about the isolationism after World War I. I was reading a book recently called The Splendid and the Vile by this guy Eric Larson, which is essentially a one-year history from May 10, 1940 to May 10, 1941 of Winston Churchill.

Starting point is 00:58:06 And it's amazing. It reads like a a thriller it reads like a fictional book but something I was very not aware of was how deep the isolationism in America was so literally while Hitler had taken a lot of Europe already he had taken France you know they had to retreat from Dunkirk just to get the British military out of there he starts bombing the shit out of Britain, like our number one ally. And Churchill can't get FDR to be in the war. Not because FDR like didn't want to help, but FDR is like, my guy, I got an election in November. Well, he's got, yeah, he did not have the political clout. So there's a good book I'd like, it's called A Day of Deceit. A Day of Deceit.

Starting point is 00:58:45 If you look it up, look up A Day of Deceit. And so the premise of the book, so I think there's no argument that the British knew that we were going to get attacked, and they had to let it happen so we could get in the war. Wow. Now, what's really kind of cool, and I think I read it, was so no day on the calendar prior to December 7th were all the aircraft carriers gone. None of them were in the harbor. And so think about it. We went on the attack six months after Pearl Harbor in Midway.

Starting point is 00:59:41 Yeah. But that's, and guess what? It was Churchill, it was europe first so japan what did japan just they they were allied with the germans but we made europe a priority when japan attacked us yeah interesting how that happens right hmm that seems very backwards doesn't it i gotta i gotta read this you know it's sort of like uh you know iraq uh afghanistan 9-11 what are we attacking iraq for yeah we'll get there we're coming there guys if you're not following me on instagram you can get me at julian dory podcast or also on my personal page at Julian D. Dory. Those links are in the

Starting point is 01:00:25 description below. You can also follow me on X at Julian D. Dory. That link is in the description below. And as always, please smash that subscribe button if you haven't already and hit that like button on the video. It is a huge, huge help. I appreciate all of you who have been subbing and all of you who are liking all these videos. Thank you. So is this book saying that FDR knew about? No, it doesn't say. It says some, I think if I remember correctly, they say that the Secretary of the Navy got the word and that he may have been,

Starting point is 01:01:00 but somebody in our government had to know. I don't, they would never, they would never tell the president because he's always got plausible deniability. If you don't tell him, then he can't lie, right? Yeah. It's ironic you're saying this though. I just recorded with a guy named Jesse Fink. What's the name of his book again, Alessi? Jesse's book he just put out. Can we Google that? Yeah, we'll pull it up so I make sure I get the title right. But he wrote this book about this controversial deep MI6 spy who was the MI6's man in America leading up to and during the entire breakout of World War II. And he was a part of an office.

Starting point is 01:01:39 This is what it's called, The Eagle in the Mirror. Great book. But he was a part of the office that they set up in New York to get the US to be into the war. And Jesse found a lot of reporting in this about how the United States kind of needed Pearl Harbor to happen, to have the impetus to do it. And that there is some evidence pointing to high-level people up to and possibly including FDR. But I got to review some of that. Evidence that they knew it was going to happen. And this is a crazy thing to say out loud.

Starting point is 01:02:14 But if you look at the history and you – and hindsight is 20-20. And you say to yourself on December 6, 1941, did most of the US population, a majority of it, not support helping out in this war? The answer is probably yes. Therefore, as sick, sad, and sadistic and twisted as it is, in the context of history, is it probably a good thing that on December 8, 1941, after December 7, they supported it and we went and helped put it over the top to win the war with Russia and Britain. It's like, damn, if that didn't happen, history, we might be speaking Deutsch to each other right now. Now, why did you, you said that we weren't allowed to get involved pre Pearl Harbor. Why is that? Well, no, there wasn't any political will. So it was, they called a hawks and a doves. And so the doves, so we were doves – so we were still isolated.

Starting point is 01:03:06 There was no political stomach to get involved. We had an ocean separating us and nobody was – Right. Why would we at that point? Yeah. There was literally – there was like a fleet of 50 ships that in like 1937 or 38, Congress was voting to like see if – because they weren't even usable anymore, to see if we could just destroy them. And it didn't pass the vote, but they didn't really care.

Starting point is 01:03:30 And when shit got so bad in Britain, Churchill called up FDR and said, yo, fam, can we use those boats? And FDR is like, they're broken. He goes, yeah, but we really need them. And we'll give you a 99-year free lease on all of our British land like in the Indies or something like that so you can park your boats and anything with the military there. And FDR calls him back like, it's got to be something different. Can't do it. I can't win that battle in Congress.

Starting point is 01:03:55 And it was that – we couldn't even – they ended up giving them to him because they had to market it as something else, like hiding something in a bill. But it was so bad that they couldn't even – we couldn't even – while Hitler's bombing the shit out of Britain, we couldn't even give them broken boats politically. When you say we, who was stopping FDR from doing anything? Congress because of the people. He had an election. It's the power of the purse. Yeah. I mean he can want to do something something but if congress doesn't write the check yeah doing it yeah that's the balance of power and he was going to if he did that his opponent

Starting point is 01:04:32 i forget the guy's name but the opponent at the time for that upcoming 1940 november election was ramping up was digging deep on isolationism to hit fdr with that so fdr had to watch the language he even used to describe the war so that it could it was it was bad you would think he was living in the social media age with how tight he had to be with words but it was a really really tight time that i really wasn't aware of so i read that book what book did you read it was called the splendid in the vial by eric larson it's really i'm gonna have to check out that book yeahid in the Vial by Eric Larson. It's really, really good. I'm going to have to check out that book. Yeah. Eagle in the Mirror. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:05:08 Yeah, Jesse was just here. He actually wrote a book on that cartel kingpin we had. Oh, that was a really good episode. Yeah, yeah. And you're saying, so in this book, there are some threads that kind of, again, reiterate that someone in our government knew. But yeah, so you'll like this thing called uh so that um there were some uh the australians i think had really broken the code and then they were sharing that information with the uh the british but there were some

Starting point is 01:05:36 at the time the book was written there were some older guys that were kind of talking about that that again we were i think we were reading the Japanese code is maybe as early as 1939, but not we, the Brits had broken. Yeah. Wow. There's some crazy code breaking that happened in that whole war and they build up some of the stuff we ended up doing with the Nazis. Well, how about us using the, um, the code talkers? And then, you know, even once we broke the enigma machines

Starting point is 01:06:06 again sometimes we had to not act on it because if we acted on it they would have put two and two together yeah and and and and and having and not making them aware of it was more important than whoever was going to you know be in harm's way. Yeah. That was the real, like, that war is where intelligence just became the be-all, end-all stuff. Yeah. You ever see that movie on Netflix, Operation Mincemeat? No.

Starting point is 01:06:37 About, like, so it was based on a book. And actually, the guy who wrote, ended up writing writing james bomb was like a part of this mission but it was this british mission to distract the germans to another spot in 1943 from where they from where the allies really wanted to invade so the allies wanted to go to sicily but they wanted the germans to think it was going to be like greece so they found a dead body in britain like some yeah yeah they floated a dead yeah yeah they floated a dead body. Yeah, they floated a, it was an army major that they floated the body and led them. Yeah, I think we even did that for D-Day because the Germans were convinced that we were going to invade Calais.

Starting point is 01:07:20 And Hitler was convinced that we were going to invade Calais. And so he would not release the reinforcements when D-Day was getting – he thought D-Day was a – he thought Normandy was a ruse. That's wild. Can you explain what went wrong on D-Day? As far as like so many people dying. Right. Right. Like, cause it was a successful mission, but like, I mean, we dropped so many people onto that beach and.

Starting point is 01:07:53 Yeah, but it was a frontal assault. I mean, it's just, I mean, I don't know that you could have, I mean, there was just really a couple of beaches. Like, was it Omaha? Omaha was bad, but like Utah and a couple other beaches had like little or no casualties. Really? Wow.

Starting point is 01:08:14 Yeah. Yeah, look at that. Yeah, I'm almost sure that there were two beaches that had little or no casualties. And there was also, and it's kind of a forgotten part, but the united states i think had like 60 of the force something like that and then there was like 20 and 20 that was britain and canada as well and they were on other beaches it was obviously it's a very successful mission and thank god we did it but man that's why like when it was 80 years this year and you just remember the sacrifice so many guys made i mean they're i've been there a couple times and i i tell you the the if you go if you get a chance to go you should go if you get a chance to only go to one beach you know go to point to hawk um you'll see there it's where the army rangers

Starting point is 01:08:56 literally had to scale um a 200 foot cliff straight up under fire. And they did because, I mean, their dilemma was or their choice was die on the beach or die trying. And it just, it takes your breath away because you're like, these guys climbed this cliff with people shooting at them. Yeah. Crazy. It just, it defies any kind of cognitive logic. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:09:27 But they did it to survive. It's an unbelievable sacrifice. There was a video we were watching when the anniversary on June 6th happened where it was Eisenhower, I think 20 years later, sitting on the wall overlooking the cemetery there with Walter Cronkite. And it just gives you chills every time because, you know, he's the guy who ordered this and he's like, you know, you can never get these lives back. But people have no idea how much these guys are responsible for our world being a free, the world we know being a free place right now yep and sometimes we're getting ready to give it back you know yeah crazy but back back to back to your story you you had said very early on that it wasn't about till i think four or five years into the military where you were like you know what i think i want to stay here i'm not five and fly anymore so what what

Starting point is 01:10:23 what what made that click well i was, I was in my second duty station. I was stationed at then Fort Bragg, North Carolina, and I was a paratrooper in the 82nd Airborne Division. And that's where I fell in love with being a soldier. I fell in love with leading soldiers and being a part of something. And, again, it's like being on a football team ah it's it's the team and uh and you know i i hope that i would always be called a team player but just um it was just that that that sense of mission that sense of purpose that that challenge of of uh you know being my my best, being all we could be.

Starting point is 01:11:07 And I was having fun. Yeah. Yeah. Did you deploy anywhere in the 90s? Well, I was on the almost invasion of Haiti. What's that? I don't know about that. Yeah, that was, I think, 94, 95. I think it was 95.

Starting point is 01:11:31 Aristide, President Clinton said, Aristide, you need to step down. And Aristide was like, no, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not. And so the 82nd Airborne, we were loaded up in airplanes, and Aristide at the last minute stepped stepped down and we didn't invade. How many guys were you going to invade with total? Like how many battalions were you talking? So I think we had a DRB.

Starting point is 01:11:56 So basically, you know, it was going to be, you know, probably two or three infantry battalions that were going to jump in. The Rangers were coming in by helicopter. I was prepositioned in Great Inaugural, so I was coming in by helicopter with a target acquisition radar section. It's badass. No, it was not badass. We were coming on a Chinook, but nothing sexy. But, yeah, and right at the last, I mean, we were in the air. I don't know how, maybe you can figure out how close we were,

Starting point is 01:12:40 but I think we were within an hour or two of opening the doors and jumping in. And how, like, would that, do you think that would have been something with heavy blowback in the sense that it's not just like a drop and invasion or like, okay, like you'd be fighting a real serious battle? I don't, I think we would have, we would have overcome their forces pretty quickly. But the operation was sort of perfect from the standpoint that it was something we could take right up to the last second and then call it off. If you start some sea invasion or something, once that's gone, you can't just stop it. So that was the right tool. We have it up on the screen here.

Starting point is 01:13:26 So this was fought just Wikipedia to, what's the name of this page, Alessi? What's it called? Operation Uphold Democracy. So Operation Uphold Democracy was a multinational military intervention designed to remove the military regime, let it installed by Raoul Cedras. After the 1991 Haitian coup d'etat overthrew the elected president, John Bertrand Aratistide. The operation was effectively authorized on 31 July 1994.

Starting point is 01:13:55 And yeah, there's a bunch of background here so people can look that up. So one or two hours before. Holy shit. Wow. So that one, a close call, to it didn't have to go in yeah are so throughout the 90s then if if you're not having to drop into war zones and stuff obviously like you're in the military this entire time which then leads up to september 11 2001 and where were you that day i was uh i was stationed in haw in Hawaii, and one of my best friends,

Starting point is 01:14:26 my phone rang at 3.30 in the morning, and his name was Dennis Kirby, and he said, turn on the TV. And I said, what channel? He says, it doesn't matter. And turned the TV on and, you know, watching one of the towers already that's been hit. And, you know, that's one of those days that everybody, we can all remember, it's the day to change the world.

Starting point is 01:14:51 Oh, yeah. And, you know, not, you know, several hours later when it's time for me to get up and, you know, I think within days I was on a plane to start looking at war plans or start doing the planning for deployments. What, a plane to? I went, we fly, we flew to Carlisle Barracks, Pennsylvania. Okay. The Army War College.

Starting point is 01:15:22 Now you, you did end up deploying to Afghanistan, right? I did. Well, I was still in Hawaii, so in June of 2004. So June of 2004 to June of 2005, I was in Afghanistan. Okay, so they didn't put you in there right away. This is really interesting, though, because Afghanistan, unfortunately, is a huge story we have to kind of do the autopsy on now in light of what happened there. But you're – when I look at this history and talk with a lot of vets like you, especially guys who were there, it seems like the initial mission there right after 9-11, the paramilitary mission, was pretty incredibly executed other than not getting Osama bin Laden like, my god, like they're going to write books about – they have written books about that. But what ends up happening is like we then turn the focus to Iraq.

Starting point is 01:16:12 We put the whole resources of the United States military behind that, which is a separate conversation we'll get to. And it's almost like we took our eye off the ball with Afghanistan. So you're getting there, doing my math right here, kind of right when that is flipping over, right? Where we're taking the eye off the ball because we're now so heavy into Iraq, no? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And you, I mean, in hindsight, really, I can say, hey, look, we were pretty small in Afghanistan. I'm like, you know, it's dangerous here. We just don't have enough people to run into. I mean, it was just the boogeyman. Can you pull the mic like that? Sorry, just point it to you. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was,

Starting point is 01:16:53 we just didn't have a lot of force. I mean, like I, the brigade I was part of, I was in a division, I was in the 25th of our division artillery and we were, we were battle space owners that had what we called Regional Command East. So we had kind of the eastern flank of the country from south to north with just one brigade of forces. Ultimately, you know, several years later, it would be at least the division's battle space. So we had one brigade that least a division's battle space. So we had one brigade that had a division's battle space.

Starting point is 01:17:32 That's not good math. No, no. What was the Taliban like at that time? Because obviously we kind of beat them into the bush in late 01 into 02. But now, like, are they poking their head out more and trying to establish political presence? No, uh, not at all. Not, um, in fact, we actually had their, we had the Afghans had their first free elections while we were there. That was one of the things that, uh, we helped them, we helped them execute. Um, the, the, you know, so, you know, I think it's one thing to describe Afghanistan. And so we, the West, have drawn a political boundary around had no national government that was capable of controlling their borders.

Starting point is 01:18:31 And so he could do whatever the hell he wanted to do. Yep. And so, you know, invading Afghanistan, it's it's tribes and so our fight um were along the afghan pakistan border were those tribes that were coming across from pakistan and then going back yeah and then there were chechens and all kinds of cats and dogs that that uh that uh that were trying to just be belligerent, you know, just being belligerent against the West or us. But it was, you know, they had no national strategy except just to, you know, screw with us. You know, just, you know, we, I was on this, I was on this forward operating base called Salerno that wasn't too far from the Pakistan border. And, you know, just like you would count on when the moon visibility was low or zero loom, we call, we're going to get rocketed.

Starting point is 01:19:38 They were going to shoot at us, you know, because they weren't afraid to move around when it was completely dark. When the moon was out and we had our nods and stuff, they didn't tend to monkey with us too much. Yeah, I mean, they call that place like the, what's it like, the graveyard of empires or something when you look at history? Because it's this landlocked, geographically odd country and no one can ever tame it. no one ever tamed it absolutely and we we uh you know we we drank the kool-aid and thought we could and you know 20 plus years

Starting point is 01:20:14 later we left right yeah can you explain i mean i'm sorry you said even something as slight as the moon being out interfered with your ability to see them at night no no we could see them at night what um but we didn't when when there was no when there was no moon out then yeah no it was things became more dangerous a lot really yeah especially like flying and everything like um um um i'll give you a for instance when there was, when it was zero loom, um, you had to have a, uh, um, the, the, the criteria for launching a medevac was life, limb, or eyesight. So anything that wasn't critical, we weren't launching, we weren't launching a helicopter because the risk-reward wasn't there. And anything that wasn't life-limiting, I said, I believe it probably had to have a general officer's side on it. I'm like, okay, why do you feel like this?

Starting point is 01:21:20 Because, I mean, the terrain, the mountains. I had two soldiers that worked for me that were in the Divardi that were killed in a daylight helicopter because of the sand. It just places like it's like the end of the earth. I mean, it's just the land that time forgot, man. It's just creepy. Did you have, I mean, cause like you said, you're there helping with their first free and fair elections, but did you have any inkling that this was going to slowly disintegrate towards what it, what it did?

Starting point is 01:22:01 No, I didn't. I don't know that. Well, I'll say this. I didn't think it was a good idea for us to occupy this place because I didn't think that we as the West had the political will to see this through. I mean, this is a thousand year project. Yeah. And I just felt like, you know what? We're going to – we signed up for the timeshare that we don't freaking want. This isn't a good deal. That's a good way to put it, unfortunately. Yeah. But you're talking about like you were mentioning some helicopters would get shut down.

Starting point is 01:22:47 You're worried about rockets and things like that from rebel forces in this case. You know, did you guys, as you're moving across the whole east side of the country, north to south, are you seeing like a lot of firefights too during this time? No. You know, I say fortunately not. We didn't see a lot. But again, I think that that war, that conflict didn't pick up until we got more forces over there. We were literally, you know, I say at a bare minimum. I mean, we're in a country that's about the size of Texas with barely a division. Yeah. So we were spread so thin that, you know, we just didn't have enough people to bump into.

Starting point is 01:23:36 You know, we were just kind of really kind of securing ourselves. I mean, we sent patrols out and stuff. I mean, we weren't hunkered down, but we didn't, you know, the more people we got out there, you know, the higher the casualties went up there because we could find them. What was your relationship like at this time, like with intelligence? Are you working hand in hand with intelligence sources to determine how you're doing your job or is it a little separated no no we i mean inherent to all of our organizations we have a intel cells i mean uh they're intel assets and so we're we're naturally trying to fuse our intel with with our operations and and and so intel drives ops so yeah so it's you's, you know, we're joined at the hip.

Starting point is 01:24:26 Right. And you're making relationships, obviously, with people in different villages and stuff like that on your own. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Doing the friend con stuff, you know, big things like just medical support. Taking what we used to call a MedCap team, medical capabilities team, and getting kids shots and fixing people's teeth and all that was just kind of goodwill to kind of help build a positive relationship with the locals.

Starting point is 01:24:53 Yeah, and I talked to so many guys who felt like, especially when they saw what happened 20 years later, they had so many friends there who were caught in the middle of that. Yeah, we gave it all back. There were deep relationships with so many afghanis it's really sad and what when when you did see that happen i would imagine in the last decade leading up to that it certainly was going the wrong way but when you see the imagery of august 2021 looking like the fall saigon all over again what's going through your head as someone who served there? Well, yeah, like, you know, I don't want to say I told you so, but it's just like, you know, that's the same thing I said. You know, we didn't have the political will at the end of the day

Starting point is 01:25:38 because this is, I mean, it's a 100-year project. You know, this is, again, we, we got, we, we call it Afghanistan, but it's not a, it's the, the word country in the sense that we identify with, you know, a nationalistic view institutions, they got nothing. Yeah. And you know, and we think we're gonna, we're gonna do something. We're gonna fix this in 20 years? Good luck. I mean, look at our country.

Starting point is 01:26:13 Look, our country developed off the East. We basically said the West was the wild, wild West. We didn't get to the West until 60, 70, 80 years later. Yeah. Like, we'll get to that. We can't handle that, 80 years later. Yeah. Like we'll get to that. We can't handle that, right? Right. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:26:34 I never heard someone put it that way, but that's probably accurate. I mean, I do wonder. I will always Monday morning quarterback this. I wonder if we hadn't gone to Iraq if it would look a lot different. I do wonder that just because. If Iraq would look a lot different. I do wonder that. Just because – If Iraq would look different? No, if Afghanistan. Afghanistan would have – yeah. Well, you know what?

Starting point is 01:26:51 Maybe – yeah, that's a great question because maybe we could have had enough combat power to really get rid of the Taliban. I mean like create some overwhelming time and space for it, but it was a slow roll. I mean, Afghanistan essentially became, you know, they were the authors of 9-11 and they became an economy of force operation. I mean, we had economy of force. So we had the bare minimum, in my opinion, we had the bare minimum in Afghanistan because Iraq was the priority. Again, look, Japan attacked us. The priority was Europe. Yep.

Starting point is 01:27:29 Yep. Strange how that happens. But you did end up in Iraq after this. How long again were you in Afghanistan? I'm sorry. I was in there for a year, June of 2004 to June of 2005. And then I got restationed from Hawaii to Fort Riley, Kansas. And then this is when our military was, we were having to actually grow.

Starting point is 01:27:49 We're building our military because we're now fighting in two theaters on one year deployments. And so I got assigned to command a unit that I had to build from scratch. What goes into that when you build a unit from scratch? Take us there as a civilian. What are you doing? I said we didn't even have shit paper or toilet paper. Shit paper. But, you know, you're building a team.

Starting point is 01:28:19 I mean, you know, you're getting brand- new privates out of basic training. You know, our non-commissioned officers were coming out of the, you know, recruiting and drill sergeant duty and all the lieutenants were damn butter bars. I mean, it was just like, whew. So, but, you know, I think it's like an expansion organization. You know what right looks like. You set your standards. You enforce your values.

Starting point is 01:28:49 And you just take one day at a time. I mean, it's, you know, it's, and I remember, like, being literally just the third person in a unit. There's only three of, three or four of us. And then, you know, 15, 14, 15 months later, it's 400 of you. And you're just like. That's nuts. And, 15, 14, 15 months later, it's 400 of you. And you're just like. That's nuts. And you're ready to do your job. I'm like very naive on this.

Starting point is 01:29:14 Like, because some of this stuff makes no sense to me because I'm not there. But like you spin up 400 people in, what did you say, 15, 16 months, something like that? Mm-hmm. Where are they? Is it like a draft? Yeah, no. Like, let me take these guys, take those guys? No, I mean, the assignment officers, the HR folks, they're sending them to you.

Starting point is 01:29:32 Like enlisted guys, enlist? Enlisted officer, yeah, everything. Okay. So you have a, we call it MTO, Military Table of Organization, I think, the organization and equipment. And so, you know, I was in artillery unit, our artillery commander. And so we get one commander, you get an executive officer,

Starting point is 01:29:54 you get an operations officer, you get a fire support officer, you get company commanders, you get their first sergeants, and you just, you know. And so there's a manning document that the HR folks are filling to. And you're getting them. You go from 300 to 400. You start getting your equipment. You start getting your people and you start training them.

Starting point is 01:30:16 And so is this the group that you ended up taking to Iraq? Yep. Okay. So you guys all deployed at the same time, obviously. Yep. When was that? January or February of 07, going to surge after President Bush announced the surge of 07. So what's going – just to give people a refresher on history here. What's – at this point, al-Zaqawi's dead.

Starting point is 01:30:38 They killed him the year before, but the damage is done with the insurgency certainly being there to stay. But what's the rest of the status in Iraq? Is this when the vibe had obviously really shifted in America, but also over there as well? Like, is the military starting to wonder, like, all right, what's going on here? No, no. Well, we know what's going on there. It's getting extremely violent.

Starting point is 01:31:01 I mean, you know, the shitstorm was picking up, you know, picking up momentum. And so, you know, again, early January 2007, President Bush announced, he says, I'm sending five additional combat brigades. So all you Jokers think you're leaving, you're staying, and we're sending five. I am sending five more combat brigades we're gonna go find them to iraq we got to change the momentum um you know we were it was like um you know we were in the third or fourth quarter and we were down and we had to we had to we had to fight back so um and and we just didn't have enough combat power to do so. So, you know, we, all these brigades, so people that were there that thought they were leaving, they were staying.

Starting point is 01:31:55 You know, we went over there on a 15-month deployment. So we already knew we were going to be there for 15 months. And, and so, and, you know, for me, it was, it was the, it was the most violence that I had seen in my, at this point, 17 years in the army. You know, it's, it's a counterinsurgency. So it's, again, it's not this force on force, like the bad guys over here and No, it's driving through your neighborhoods and waiting for the fucking street to blow up under you

Starting point is 01:32:29 or some RPG to come out. I mean, that was everyday life. And it was bad. I mean, it seemed like almost every day, it felt like every day that someone someone with a u.s flag on their right shoulder was was was getting killed and i you know it just when i try to explain it today you know it's like and you know imagine one of your teammates someone a part of your organization ain't coming home that's what the environment was, it's unfathomable to most of us.

Starting point is 01:33:09 Did you know what your op tempo was going to be or even mission was going to be before deploying? Like were you already planning that out back at base? Well, yeah, we knew that we were going to be battle space. So look, realize I started out as an artillery unit. In November, they told us we were going to be doing X. And then in January, they told us we're going to be doing X. And then in January, they told us we're going to be doing Y. And so we had to pivot not once, but twice. Essentially my, you know, artillery, we, you know, we're, we're now grunts and we had to play, you know, infantry.

Starting point is 01:33:41 And so we were pounding the pavement. Where'd you land when you got into Iraq? Well, we, so we, we deployed through Kuwait where we picked up our, you know, we did some more training and, you know, got our gear and equipment, but we flew into Bayeup. Oh, the airport. Yeah. Okay. So what was that like when you got there? I've had some guys on here who came in through Bayeup, but is that is that, at this point, like pretty much a U.S. mini military base? Yeah, it's a huge, it's a massive, buyout was massive. And it was, you know, I don't know,

Starting point is 01:34:15 you can maybe think of some Vietnam movie flying into Saigon. It was, you know, it felt secure. I mean, it didn't feel like you were in Indian country. But you hit the pavement right when you get there. Yeah. Well, so in my case, so in normal rotations, what you were doing is you were replacing another unit. So you link up with the other unit you're going to have. And for two weeks, you guys spending time doing transition stuff.

Starting point is 01:34:47 And then they leave, and it's yours. Well, nobody was leaving. And we were sort of filling in spaces where we just didn't have forces. And so there wasn't anybody that I was getting a lay down from, or whoever I was getting a lay down from didn't really know what was going on, but you know, we just, and, and then we had a couple of Iraqi infantry battalions that we were trying to work with and.

Starting point is 01:35:16 Like training them or working with them? Working with them, working with them slash training with them, trying to try to show them what right looks like. So, so we, we, we had their forces and this is kind of a cool story because it was one that i had to i i think it was it was it was a certainly a battle of wills was eventually um i decided uh you know that we needed this to um because we were let's think about we were like comm. So we'd go back to, I was on Camp Liberty. And, you know, we were Camp Liberty and we'd leave Camp Liberty

Starting point is 01:35:51 and we'd go out to the areas that we were responsible for and we'd work all day or whatever. And when it was time to go back, we'd go back. And this was, you know, we commuted. And I remember I hated, there was one area I had to drive through, which was like, it was literally like the wild, wild west. We had put Alaska barriers around this freaking neighborhood. Alaska barriers? Yeah.

Starting point is 01:36:13 You know the Jersey barriers? No. Yeah. I'm from Jersey. I don't know. The barriers that divide the highways. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:36:22 That's a Jersey barrier. That's what that's called? Yeah, Jersey barrier. I just thought it was a barrier. Yeah, they're about this high. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a Jersey barrier. That's what that's called? Yeah, a Jersey barrier. I just thought it was a barrier. Yeah, they're about this high. Well, Alaska barriers are like five times higher. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 01:36:30 They don't come any bigger. We had Texas barriers. They had these different levels of barriers. And so there was this area that was like buried up. I mean, they got tanks and brads in there. They're duking it out. And, you know, so, and you're driving by this shit, but you don't really see what's going on.

Starting point is 01:36:53 And just like, but I didn't, I hated driving through there. And I didn't feel like we were also, I didn't feel like we were staying in contact with our fight. I mean, like, okay, well, we go to work, and then we go home, and the boogeyman comes back and fucks with these people. I said, we got to stay with them. So I decided to establish a combat outpost in the areas that we were responsible for. And so we found this old Iraqi mansion, and we had to pay rent a mansion and we had to pay rent on it and you can just take someone's property so so we decide this is and it was an

Starting point is 01:37:38 area that I could put my battalion in but not just my battalion but the Iraqis could be in there with us, the Iraqi. And so it was like, well, this is where we're going to operate out of. We'll let you rotate back to Liberty when it's time to rotate out, but we're going to live in the area that we're responsible for, and we're going to build relationships. We're going to be out here at night. We're going to be out here in the day.

Starting point is 01:38:01 We're not going to be – we're not solar powered. We're going to freaking – we're going to be out here in the day. We're not, you know, going to be, we're not, you know, solar powered. We're going to freaking, we're going to own the space. And so, and so my guys, and, you know, I say it, you know, not surprisingly, we're like, you know, first of all, we're working with these Iraqi guys. They're good people, but, you know, language, culture, all those barriers. I barriers I mean you know I put you in a bunk next to somebody who doesn't speak your language you don't know shit about you know you're not gonna be comfortable either and he's got a load of weapons so so so and I basically had to like that was I say that was my my

Starting point is 01:38:42 determination moment was my guys. I'm like, all right. And so I was like, well, I'm staying out here with you. So, you know, you guys ain't leaving me. So, and so, you know, that took a couple of weeks to kind of get everybody used to this is what, you know, what it was going to be like. But, you know, we, and that became our base of operations. And, you know, ultimately, you know, we would, you know, all that stuff settled down and we began to kind of take back the space and get control and develop great relationships. And the Iraqis, the good Iraqis that we developed relationships with, they helped us catch the number three al-Qaeda target in Baghdad. Who was that? I can't remember his name. I mean, it's... Yeah, long names over there. Yeah. But so, yeah, so that's, and that's what you hear from a lot of guys, like that on the

Starting point is 01:39:38 ground, like we're talking about with Afghanistan, that on the ground relationship building is what leads to intelligence coming out. And this is during the era where you got Marines going door-to-door to see if someone's even in there. So it was such a chaotic time. Yeah, we had to clear our area. I mean, we went door-to-door looking for contraband, looking. I mean, what Americans would never imagine is that some foreign soldier, some foreign force is knocking on your front door and wants to collect all your weapons.

Starting point is 01:40:10 We would, man. Yeah. That could never happen in this country. It also, though, and this is what sucks about this, because you've got to do that. That's what the situation called for, and I'm sure guys did it as professionally as they could. Yeah, and I was on that dignity and respect we you know i said hey we can't be

Starting point is 01:40:30 pissing and shitting where we're gonna work so we need to do this respectfully yeah because we're not going anywhere it's not like you know we're we're you know kicking ass and taking names and we don't have to come back here. This is where we sleep. Well, a story has been told on this podcast a bunch before about the psychology of it that really makes you think. And essentially during one of the regular door knocks, they're clearing a house and there's like a seven, eight or nine year old little kid who walks down with his hands on his head like this with a thousand yard stare, staring at the soldiers and lays down face first with his hands up with his hands on his head on the ground. And the soldiers are like, no, no, no, no. Like you're good. We don't need you to

Starting point is 01:41:19 do that. And he get, and they like pull him up and he gets up and looks at him with a thousand yard stare. And what the soldiers realized is they're like, obviously we have a job to do, but this kid's entire childhood has known people with the American flag. And that's what he's associated. Yeah. They're like, this is how they're born. And like, you don't, it's not to say like, oh, empathize with terrorists, but like looking at the root causes of where it comes from.

Starting point is 01:41:44 They're caught in the middle. Yeah. Yep. They're caught in the middle. And. Yep, they're caught in the middle. And that's why counterinsurgencies are so tough. I mean, I can remember in Bosnia, and I mostly got, I wasn't out on the front lines minimally, you know, when I got a chance to go out. But like they'd have like grandmas, like going up to the American soldiers, giving them cases of hand grenades. Like here. Because that's one of the things we were doing.

Starting point is 01:42:12 We were collecting, trying to get this stuff off the field. The two most heavily, the two most, before Ukraine, the two most heavily mined countries in the world were Bosnia and Afghanistan. Whoa. Bosnia still? Well, to date. I don't know now, but we were clearing. That was another one of our missions, clearing mines. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:42:42 But as of me being in afghanistan the two most heavily mined places in the world were bosnia and afghanistan well afghanistan still left over from the soviet invasion and and bosnia from the from the balkan uh all that balkan mess now now the ukraine's bad even more in iraq wow because that's, you hear about that in Iraq all the time. Yeah, but those are improvised explosive devices. I mean, those are, I mean, essentially they're mines, but they're not real. Oh, I'm thinking of it all together. Okay.

Starting point is 01:43:16 All right. So you're separating. Gotcha. Gotcha. Like mines are meant to deny areas of movement. Right. So you set up this base at this rich... We called it...

Starting point is 01:43:29 We called it... Torch. Torch. We named it Torch, like the Statue of Liberty Torch. I like that. When I had Mike Ritland in here, he was one of the 16 SEALs that took down Saddam's palace. Mm-hmm. So...

Starting point is 01:43:42 Oh, he was? Yeah. Can you take a picture on the did he yeah they he's got a lot of pictures as he said we didn't share him on the podcast but he's like yeah got a lot at home but like that was just an abandoned place i guess so you're actually negotiating with the people there to have how many guys did you have staying there again in this place well i mean i didn't have my whole battalion in there but we probably put like a a company in there and then and then each of the iraqi battalion so i'm i'm gonna say between two

Starting point is 01:44:11 and three hundred of us were wow it's a big place yeah i hope so that that's your base and it sounds like the the way you were explaining it you guys were operating out of that area exclusively. But did you move somewhere after that, or was this where you were for most of the rest of your deployment? Well, so my deployment was cut short at five months. But what I recall or recollect is that they operated out of the whole time. Okay. So what happened that cut your deployment short? Yeah. So it was May 7th of 2007. I had been, it was, it had been kind with some local Iraqis out in the areas that I, the neighborhoods were Hateen and Yarmouk and kind of western Baghdad. And I know we'd had a couple of soldiers and a sister battalion from Fort Riley. So two soldiers in another battalion in the brigade I was in were killed like three days earlier.

Starting point is 01:45:43 First Lieutenant, I think it was Lieutenant Ryan Jones and Specialist Sunson had been killed, I think, on the 3rd of May. And, you know, we tried to do memorial services whenever we can. I tried to make memorial services whenever we can. And so it was at the end of the day. And so we went down. For me, it was Route Jackson to go to the memorial service. And what was kind of cool about that day was, so my battalion had got detached from my parent brigade. So I was assigned to 4th Brigade, 1st Infantry Division, but I got attached to 2nd Brigade, 1st Infantry Division.

Starting point is 01:46:22 So they were out of Germany, so I got taskers. And another one of our battalions, 216, got detached. And then I guess some other battalions were attached to give back. It was just kind of balancing power and missions and all that kind of stuff. So anyway, this was the first time that we were all from Fort Rye, all the commanders had gotten a chance to see each other again. We hadn't seen each other in months. But we were all six, all the six battalion commanders from the parent brigade

Starting point is 01:47:00 were all at this memorial service. And our brigade commander was there, Colonel Ricky Gibbs. And so it was kind of a somber occasion, but it was also good to see him. I mean, I remember smiling and catching up with my boss and one of my fellow battalion commanders. In fact, Pat Frank, we actually had adjacent boundaries, but I was part of 2-1 and he stayed part of 4-1. But Route Irish was the, you probably heard about Route Irish,

Starting point is 01:47:35 that's what separated our battle spaces. Can you refresh me on that? Route Irish was kind of the freaking hell run or night run between buy up and the green zone. It was like a lot of bad shit happened on the right Irish. So anyway, all the catching up had done. And I remember first Sergeant John says, hey, sir, we got to go. We got to go. I was like, OK, we're going to go.

Starting point is 01:48:01 And so if I was time to go, I was like, okay, we're going to go. And so finally it was time to go. I was in a, I say melancholy disposition because I was really just still kind of trying to process the death of these young men. I'm like, are we fucking making a difference over here? I mean, we got guys getting killed every day and this is, are we fucking making a difference over here? I mean, we got guys getting killed every day, and this is, you know, are we making a difference? I mean, just sort of a rhetorical question, and is all this sacrifice worth it? You know, that's kind of where I'm at emotionally. But I'm also thinking about, okay, what's on tomorrow?

Starting point is 01:48:41 Where am I going tomorrow? What's our game plan? And just kind of going through all that stuff in my head. And all these things, these flood of thoughts are going through my head as I'm heading back to my headquarters. And then it's like, fucking wham. I mean, you know, I got hit by a command detonated IED. So this wasn't, when I say command detonated, this was triggered by someone.

Starting point is 01:49:12 It wasn't buried and it wasn't random. It was buried in the ground and there was a wire to it and there was a spotter and there was a trigger man. And when my vehicle went over it, they exploded it. How many guys were in the vehicle with you? Five of us. Everybody survived, first of all, everybody survived, but the blast blew me out of the vehicle. It was an armored vehicle, it was an armored Humvee,

Starting point is 01:49:38 factory armored Humvee, so about 15,000 pound vehicle that the blast blew me out of. And I remember kind of going through the air and hitting the ground and rolling. You do? Yeah. So you weren't knocked out? No. I mean, I was lying on my back, and I was like, you know, first I was pissed, like,

Starting point is 01:50:01 fucking son of a bitch. I mean, like, I just knew it was an ID. But then I was like, shit, I am wounded and I ain't moving. I'm laying there on my back. This is 9.30 at night, 9.30, 10 o'clock at night. My vehicle kind of continues, sputters on before it eventually stops. But I don't see it. And the last thing that I said, Julian, I said, God, I don't want to die here. And I was out.

Starting point is 01:50:36 My senior, the senior noncommissioned officer in my patrol, he was uh first sergeant johnson he was acting he was actually acting as my battalion command sergeant major because my battalion command sergeant major had been on emergency leave he was the first one to arrive at my vehicle so i was i was vehicle three or four and first sergeant johnson was in the fourth vehicle So when he gets to where my vehicle stops, he was actually the one that recognized I was missing. Now, one of my company commanders was sitting behind me, and the driver and the kid in the turret and my interpreter was sitting behind the driver.

Starting point is 01:51:21 His name was Mike Oro. He was a U.S. civilian that was born in Iraq but was a civilian. He was 58 years old. And, again, my interpreter. And he got wounded as well. And apparently he was in distress and, you know, making, you know, making noise or screams or whatever. And everybody was attending him. And the folks in my vehicle had assumed that I had gotten out to help with Mike.

Starting point is 01:51:55 And so when First Sergeant Johnson got to my vehicle, he was like, you know, he said, to quote him, he said, where the fuck's the colonel? And that's when they, you know, they kind of all kind of realized, holy shit, he's not here. And so he would find me. And you were knocked out at this point. At this time, I was unconscious. You knew you couldn't move. You said you were on your back. Could you look down? I was on my back.

Starting point is 01:52:28 I didn't know what was wrong with me. I just knew I was going to die. I had no idea where I was injured. I just was on my back, and I couldn't move. So First Sergeant Johnson finds me, I think somewhere between 50 and 100 yards away from where my vehicle stopped. Oh my God. You flew 50 or 100? Well, I didn't fly because the vehicle kept going. But still, Jesus. And this is a 15,000 pound vehicle. How did, when you ejected, did you? No, it blew me out of the side it blew the door

Starting point is 01:53:06 open yeah okay all right yeah if you pull up a you can pull up a picture yeah let's do that because i when you were first explaining this i'm like you went through like the metal roof of a of a of a vehicle and survived like you are iron man yeah what's what should we be searching? Just put Colonel Gadsden's Humvee photos. Colonel, how did you know that it was, what do you call it, command detonated? How did you know? Well, I didn't know it was command detonated until after the fire. Okay, gotcha. How did they know?

Starting point is 01:53:40 Oh, because they do the forensics. I mean, they have people that do the analysis. So it came out in the after-action report. That's so interesting. Wow. Okay. Yep. We got it?

Starting point is 01:53:49 So I have this. Do we have any photos? Yep. Yep. Keep going down. A lot of you. Yeah. Is that it right there on the right side?

Starting point is 01:54:02 Is that like the... No. Yeah, that's not it. That's not the one. There's an actual picture of the... yeah but that's not it um that's not the one there's an actual picture of the yeah i've seen it that's not it or you got john you got that book here no your book has it right what's on the cover that's you on there uh all right we'll see we'll see if we can get it but if we do we'll stick it in the corner of the screen in the after. So it shows the image like the investigator's taking the picture. Well, no, actually, you'll see my vehicle in the boneyard.

Starting point is 01:54:33 So you'll be able to see how it blew me out of the, you know, how the door blew open and it just blew me out. I didn't have my seatbelt on, so that's why I didn't stay in the vehicle. Okay. So you blow out the side side it ends up stopping 50 to 100 yards from where you are what was the name of of the of the guy who was coming over to find you first after he was like he's not there uh first sergeant johnson first sergeant johnson yep so he he finds me you're knocked out i'm knocked out he starts to resuscitate me. Apparently, I punched him like three times because I remember. And so, because, and I remember, what I do remember is I remember sort of coming back,

Starting point is 01:55:16 you know, coming to and wondering why he's so close to me. Like, why is he so close to my face? Because I didn't know what was going on and and all that whole time um my medic um uh a private named eric brown put the put the tourniquets on my fate uh on my leg so he he and he's the one that the doctors give credit for saving my life so you're so you're basically below your kneecaps is where shit was. Yeah, but my legs were still connected. He put the tourniquets high on my thighs.

Starting point is 01:55:50 Got it. So your thighs were doing okay. Well, I mean, I'm above the knee, so not really. Whoa. But he put the tourniquets high. He probably ran through my crotch. Whoa. And sensed them so I could just

Starting point is 01:56:06 stop the bleeding when I saved your life that saved my life he said the doctors say whoever put the turkish on your legs saved your life so I mean that night Julian I went through 129 pints of blood the average human holds between six and eight units I went through 129 pints of blood. How does that even work? Are they giving you transfusions? Yeah. In fact, they ran out of blood in the cache.

Starting point is 01:56:39 And they were ready to hook one of my other first sergeants directly to me for blood. I died six times that night. I went into arrest six times that evening. So did you have any, because you're knocked out this whole time, obviously. But like, did you have any sort of near-death experience with that? No. That is, that's, wow. Six times.

Starting point is 01:57:03 Where did they take you? So they took me back to where the ceremony was, and that's where they started triaging me, and that's where a medevac would come and get me and take me to where they were giving me all the blood and the cash, the combat hospital. How many days were you out? Well, so this all happened on the 7th of May.

Starting point is 01:57:31 So I would go to the cash in Baghdad and then from Baghdad to Balad, where the Air Force flew me out from Balad to Germany and then Germany to the States. So I was wounded on the 11th. I was in the States by the 11th of May. Wow. So four days later, you're in the States. Yep. Still had my legs.

Starting point is 01:57:52 I didn't know they did this. Oh, yeah. I always thought if they were taking you out, they took you to Germany and that's where you were. No, I went to, well, Ballad was the air base where that was the last, that was the sort of air medevac. That's where the air base was that was the last, that was the sort of air medevac. That's where the air base was to get us out of the country. And then Ballad to Germany.

Starting point is 01:58:11 So I got operated on the cache that night. The next day I got operated in Ballad. And then I got operated in Longstool, Germany. And then I landed at Andrews to go to Walter Reed in Washington, D.C. When did you wake up? That's – I don't remember the specific day, but I was – it's probably a week or so. I was in – like I was in an induced coma. So you never saw germany you don't know i have no i don't have no memories of balad i have no uh i have no memories of germany i have

Starting point is 01:58:53 no memories of even landing at air i was out so what is i mean so five days in a coma are you can you compare it to like a regular sleep or they just like wake up and you're like, what is that? You were never conscious for the five days. I don't know. I mean, if I was, I don't know. I can't. Yeah. Well, I know this. I, I, I had, uh, and this is, this is sort of anecdotal, but the air force flight nurse that talked to my wife. So the air force flight nurse that flew from Germany to Andrews, she stayed in the ambulance with me from Andrews Air Force Base to Walter Reed in D.C. So she talked to my wife, and she said,

Starting point is 01:59:35 I had never given so much sedative to an individual as your husband. So apparently I was fighting, and she had to keep sedating me. But I have no memories of any of that. Now, I think in John's podcast with you, you discussed how one of your guys flew with you, I think, from Iraq to Germany. One of my teammates. So a West Point teammate.

Starting point is 02:00:07 He was a couple years behind me named Wilhoff. At the time, he was a major. And we had actually interacted in Baghdad. And so he incredibly, when he found out that I was wounded, was able to get a helicopter ride to the cache where I was getting, where I had my initial operations in Baghdad. And he got permission to stay with me all the way to Germany. Wow.

Starting point is 02:00:32 Because that was as far as they would let him go. So this guy's locker was literally across from mine for three years at West Point. Wow. He was the number 78. Number 78. Yep. That's amazing. Yep.

Starting point is 02:00:44 That's a pretty cool West Point bonding thing right there. Yep. Well, the doctors that operated on me were West Point grads. Oh, that's cool. Wow. Yep. The doctor that was in charge of my rehab at West Point was a teammate. Full family. Oh, yeah. It's crazy. But the last thing you say right before you get knocked out there is I don't want to die God I don't want to die in this country

Starting point is 02:01:09 and that was my prayer and then you saw it then closing your eyes and that was it I mean that's blank who said I you guys opened up your podcast with your soul dad is soldier so the soldier your dad read that someone said that to you at that time? yeah Private Brown the kid that put the tourniquets on my legs knew it by heart and so after they

Starting point is 02:01:36 when they put me in a vehicle to get me back to where we left from I was my head was in his lap in the vehicle and I asked him to say the prayer oh you asked him so you remember you remember that I knew that he knew it and I asked him to say it so you remember that part so you woke up at that part yeah I was yeah I was in and out okay yeah there were times I was in and out uh before the um and like like my last memory of Iraq was hearing the medevac coming,

Starting point is 02:02:09 like hearing a helicopter come and get me. And I've learned after the fact that when they put me on, I was breathing on my own. But before I got to the cache, they had to intubate me. So I stopped breathing on my own. So it was just touch and go for a while. So when you think of these things I'm trying to picture, is it almost like you have these in and out dream sequences when you're picturing in your head? No.

Starting point is 02:02:40 I'm essentially sharing with you what I've been told. Wow. Okay. Wow. Okay. Yeah. I mean, like I don't remember Will flying with me. I don't, you know, honestly, the last thing that I, you know, I remember hearing the helicopter. I had these vague remembrances of flashes of the look on people's faces that see me, and it's not good.

Starting point is 02:03:14 I remember my boss, who was a colonel, Colonel Gibbs, I remember telling him, at this point, I'm just like a broken record saying, please tell Kim and the kids I love them. And it is that realization that I know that I'm not sure I'm going to make at home. And I just wanted my... I just wanted them to know that I love them. You know, you don't know if you're going to make it. There's obviously a plan for you to make it, though. Your time wasn't up. Nope. It's a real, in a lot of ways ways it's like the miraculous part of the world

Starting point is 02:04:29 where all your guys are in the right place at the right time to save your life and I can't even imagine thinking about the people closest to me and having to weigh that and the idea of like i might not be here for

Starting point is 02:04:46 them and i mean all these years later i understand why that affects you yeah yeah it's like uh i mean i i don't you know it's not you know it's not something you like to think about but i at the same time i i don't you know if someone talks to me about it, I share. But, you know, to me, you know, 17 years later, it still has the same emotion. I mean, it's a real emotional scar. Do you remember the first moment you were reunited with your family? Or are you still kind of out? Yeah, I was. No, it wasn't like this clear, coherent moment.

Starting point is 02:05:34 I can kind of recall the fog of seeing my wife, but my vision wasn't good. Apparently, I couldn't even remember my daughter. My daughter got upset because I couldn't, I didn't know who she was. So, and my wife, she's a better storyteller this part, but I was just all over the place. I mean, they'd ask me, she said, they'd come in and ask you where I was and i'd be like i'm in bosnia you know the next day i'm i'm here and so

Starting point is 02:06:11 they they really didn't know how bad you know the damage was you know whether i was gonna make it back so even when i was conscious i wasn't't all there. Yeah. I imagine you had to sustain like the world's worst concussion of all time too, right? Like you got thrown out of that thing. It's crazy. Yeah, TBI. Yeah. So they're still evaluating that at this point. They can't know the full extent.

Starting point is 02:06:38 Right. That's scary. So do you remember though when you officially kind of woke up and at least were aware of your surroundings? Was that weeks later, a month later? It was probably, let's say, within a couple of weeks, maybe three weeks. I certainly remember once I got out of the ICU and I was up in a regular ward, you know, that is where everything kind of sunk in. So I'd say that was probably late, late May. So it's been, you know, probably been a few weeks since from when I was initially wounded. So on the one hand, I would imagine, you know, I think a lot of our worst nightmare is the

Starting point is 02:07:27 idea of like being a vegetable or something or not being able to think, right? So on the one hand, you're like, okay, I'm back with it. Like I can understand what's going on. But on the other hand, you're also looking down and you don't have legs anymore. What's that like? Yeah, what's that like? So I guess you cognitively know it, but for the first four weeks, or I don't know for how long, I mean, I didn't, but I remember kind of waking up going every day, like I would just hesitate to open my eyes and just wondered, like, is this a bad dream? Is this a nightmare? And am I going to wake up and my leg's going to be there? You know, is this just a bad dream I can't get out of? And eventually, you know, you start to accept that. You start to process it.

Starting point is 02:08:17 You start to, you know, I say embrace it, you know, the reality of it. And so you can start to move forward yeah now are you are are you still like in intense pain are they morphine in you up still at this point oh no i'm still on some uh some pain kills i'm on like dilaudid um so i mean i you know i've i at some point i had fentanyl in me i mean i'm i'm on fentanyl and Dilaudid and morphine, all that shit. So it's kind of a sidebar story. But I'm telling you, I was so like, at least a year after this, I could fucking drink a bottle of whiskey or wine, not even be broke.

Starting point is 02:09:06 I mean. Your body was like, keep it coming, baby. This is nothing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean. Then you load it up, basically. So when does, you know, when you were telling me before, it was like 15 months of full rehab

Starting point is 02:09:21 after this, right? Well, it's yeah so you know my re so um so i'm just like you know rehab and surgery so four months after i got wounded i link up with the giants oh that was then four months it's only four months september i got wounded in May, September, the first time I meet the Giants. Yeah. Can you explain the background of this to people? Because you have a couple of Super Bowl rings. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:09:51 Yeah. So a classmate of mine, you saw him in the video, Mike Sullivan, who was a coach for the Giants, who's a wide receivers coach, had come to visit me in the hospital. It was that summer. So it was, I think it was either, I think it was June or July, he'd come to visit me in the hospital, spent the day down, you know, came down, drove down, and spent the day with me and then left. And, you know, and he says, anything I can do? And I said, well, I'd love to see you guys play when you come to town.

Starting point is 02:10:30 And, okay, he says, sure, no problem. And I'm not keeping track of the Giants that season. I mean, you know, so he calls me on Monday before the week of that giant Redskins game, and asked me if I wanted to go to the game. And I said, yep. And he asked me how many tickets I'd need. I said, well, you know, you cover Kim and the kids. And he said, yeah.

Starting point is 02:11:00 So I needed four tickets. And then on Tuesday. It's a week three game? week three yep so on tuesday before the game he calls me back and he says i don't know if you've been following us but you know we hadn't won a game this year we and we haven't played very well um you know i i'd like to know if you'd be willing to you know speak to the team um but i wanted to ask you first before I run the idea, but I coached Coughlin. I said, sure, why?

Starting point is 02:11:29 He's my teammate. He asked me to do something, and why not? What do I got to lose? I said, yeah. And so Coach Coughlin buys off on the idea, and he calls me on Friday before the game. And it's kind of weird because I was still in bed when he called me. And I'm at home, and I don't think I had even gone to physical therapy.

Starting point is 02:11:55 And he, you know, kind of – I really – I can remember very little of what he says, but he's just kind of giving me a rundown, and I'm not really able to process this. I'm like, okay. So Saturday, my kid had a Pop Warner football game, and then after it was over, my wife loads me in the car, and she drives me to the team hotel where the Giants are staying.

Starting point is 02:12:27 And I got this 3x5 card in my hand, and I don't have any notes written on it. And I'm stressing about what am I going to talk to these guys about. And she's stressing me out more by asking me. And what was kind of cool, and these are some things I've kind of found out after the fact, but A, this was the first time that Coach Coughlin apparently let anybody outside the Giants organization ever talk to his team. Really? Wow. And nobody knew I was coming to talk except him and Coach Sullivan. So they got me hidden.

Starting point is 02:13:14 And then Coach Coughlin introduces me, and I come into the side of the room, and Eli Manning's sitting from me to you. Yeah. You know, just, and I talked to him, you know, for about 15 minutes about what happened to me and about my team saving my life. Wow. And it was, and I say, it was like a drop the mic moment, but I didn't even know it. I mean, like, I'm not a public speaker. I just told these guys.

Starting point is 02:13:38 You're pretty good at it. Yeah, I'm going to say it. And because Coach Coughlin, and I didn't find this out until like years later. Apparently, you know, like I was supposed to talk to him, and then they would go into their schedule. He totally dismissed the team. He said, go to your rooms. You're done.

Starting point is 02:13:55 I had nothing else to say to you guys that night. That was after my speech. But I didn't know it because I didn't know what was normal. So, in fact, after I spoke, I went back into the dining area, and Plexiglas Burris comes down and sits down and talks to me because we're from the same hometown. Oh, wow. And so we chat for another – we hang out for like 20, 30 minutes,

Starting point is 02:14:22 and then I go back home. My wife drives me back home. We get to the stadium, my whole family, we get to the stadium the next day and instead of me going and sitting in the stands, they want

Starting point is 02:14:38 me to be on the sidelines. And I'm like, like I couldn't even push myself in my wheelchair, so one of my kids had to be with me. They split. One did one half. One did the other half. And everybody's like, what did you say to Plexico?

Starting point is 02:14:54 What did you say to Plexico? And I'm like, I don't know what I said to Plexico. What do you mean what did I say to him? He goes, well, he's playing. So I didn't know he wasn't going to play so so apparently whatever i said whatever our conversation like i didn't give him a pep to a personal pep talk we were just talking about life and and he decided to play and um and so and i so i stayed on the sidelines with them for the game.

Starting point is 02:15:27 And I remember, though, this was kind of funny, but I remember we were going in the locker room at halftime, and the score was the Washington Redskins 14 and New York Giants 3. And I'm like, boy, this wasn't a very good speech or something. Damn it. And so the Giants, you should go back and look at that game. They have a goal line stand, a four-down goal line stand to keep their Redskins out. But Plexiglas Burris had actually caught the go-ahead touchdown.

Starting point is 02:15:56 And as soon as he came off the sideline, he put the ball in my lap. Oh, that's cool. And the Giants won that game 24-17. And so that was the first of 11 consecutive road victories they had that season. Yeah, and they ended up winning. They beat the undefeated Patriots that year. Yeah, beat the Packers in Green Bay in overtime. And so that was my first Super Bowl. So all this is going on.

Starting point is 02:16:24 I still, like, during this period, in fact, I don't go to another game until the Tampa game, the wild card game. Yeah, yeah. And we win, and they want me to go to the Dallas game, but I got to go back in the hospital for surgery. What were you getting surgery on? My right arm and my leg. What was wrong with your right arm?

Starting point is 02:16:46 I couldn't, it was it had locked, no, it had locked up. I couldn't bend it anymore. I've been looking at your one finger all day. I got some radial nerve. No, I can't even use, I can't use these fingers. So I got all under that. Look, I got some Radionerve. No, I can't even use. I can't. I can't use these things.

Starting point is 02:17:05 Oh, whoa. Yeah. There's all. So I got all the nerve. Look, I'm right-handed. Yeah. Look. Look how small my right hand is.

Starting point is 02:17:13 I'm just. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. You still have good grip, though. And I got four operations in there on my elbow. So, and then I got a plate and screws and some shrap that in here and I saw some shrap on my arm.

Starting point is 02:17:27 So you were getting surgery on that. When was that again? So I had this surgery in... Dallas game? Yeah. So it's January. Early January. Yeah. And so I'm in

Starting point is 02:17:42 the hospital and I can't go to the Dallas game. And so I had the surgery before the Dallas game, and I went into a pretty serious depression because I was back in the hospital. I was like, I can't believe I'm in here again. And I was depressed, so I tried to call Mike Sullivan, my classmate, up, and I didn't get him. I ended up leaving him a voicemail.

Starting point is 02:18:09 And, you know, I'm on drugs, and I left him a pretty, I don't know, it was coherent or what, but I left him like a one-minute, one-and-a-half-minute voicemail. And so Mike, he doesn't call me back, but he lets Coach Coughlin hear the voicemail. And they played that voicemail before the Dallas game in the team meeting. Wow. So they— Whatever you said, it worked.

Starting point is 02:18:44 They beat Dallas because they lost to Dallas both times that year. Yeah, they were like 14-2 that year. I remember that. Yeah, yep. And then – so after the Dallas game, I'm still in the hospital. The following Wednesday, Coach Coughlin calls me in the hospital and says, I would like you to be one of the honorary co-captains for the NFC champion game.

Starting point is 02:19:09 At Lambeau. At Lambeau with Harry Carson. Whoa. With Harry Carson. Who's like a legend. A legend. And I'm like, hell yeah. And I remember going, I remember I told my doctors, I go, you guys let me out or I'm

Starting point is 02:19:21 leaving, but I'm going to this game. And so they discharged, so I'm going to this game. And so they discharged. So I got discharged from the hospital. So on Friday, on Saturday, I flew to – I had to fly to Milwaukee. And my son came with me, and we grounded from Milwaukee to Green Bay. It was about minus seven degrees. Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:19:44 I remember that game. Yeah. Third coldest game in NFL history. Oh. And no, you know, just interaction. The guys, I could tell, were glad to see me, but I didn't have any particular, you know, thing to say to anyone. Just hanging out with the guys.

Starting point is 02:20:01 That's all I really did. And so I remember we went out first. We went out for the coin toss. Well, actually, I went out for the warm-ups, and I had a big winter coat on, but I just had the same kind of shorts I got on now. And I was like, this is cold. So I went back and put my snow pants on,

Starting point is 02:20:21 go out for the coin toss. And I remember they had their special people, and they had this nun. The Packers. Packers had this nun, and she was in a wheelchair. And I remember thinking, man, they got God on their side. So the coin toss. You took my bar, word for word. Yeah, I know.

Starting point is 02:20:45 And so we go back to the sidelines, and they were like, okay, you took my bar word for word yeah right damn it and so we go back to the sidelines and they were like okay you know Colonel Gadsden we're gonna take you

Starting point is 02:20:51 upstairs and I'm like you're taking me where I'm like well we're gonna get you out of the cold and I'm like I'm like

Starting point is 02:20:59 no thanks I go this is my spot I mean unless you are making me leave this is where I've been for every game. This is where I'm going to stay. Wow. And I stayed the whole game on the field.

Starting point is 02:21:12 That's awesome. That's so cool. Also, I remember how cold that looked. Good for you, trooper. But did you go to the Super Bowl too? Yeah. So after the, you know, we, of course, win the game. It goes into overtime.

Starting point is 02:21:26 In fact, here's a little cool fact is you remember the game went into overtime. The Packers won the toss. Brett Favre throws an interception. Corey Webster. Corey comes off the field and gives me the ball. So I had the last football that Brett Favre ever threw as a Green Bay Packer. That's incredible, man. That's pretty cool.

Starting point is 02:21:44 Wow. That might get you a few bucks if you ever eat it. Yeah. If I need it. Yeah. So two weeks later, though, Super Bowl, are you on the field? Yeah, so we're in the locker room, and they're like, you're coming to the Super Bowl, right?

Starting point is 02:21:54 And I was like, can I bring my family? They go, oh, yeah. You know, it's like, are you kidding? So, yeah. So we go out to the Super Bowl. I actually go out there on a – we fly out on a Friday, so I'm able to go to the Super Bowl. I actually go out there on a – we fly out on a Friday. So I'm able to go to a – I go to practice on Saturday. And so it's my first time I've ever been to a Giants practice.

Starting point is 02:22:13 And, you know, I'm watching practice and, you know, talking with Coach here and there. Not really. I'm just staying out of the way. But we get on the bus to come back to the hotel. And on the way back, that's when I said, you know, and I was like, I want to say something, but, you know, Coach Coughlin hadn't asked me to say anything.

Starting point is 02:22:31 And I'm like, well, I'll just ask him and he'll say no and then I'll be good. And I'm sitting next to Coach Coughlin. I'm like, hey, Coach, I would like to talk to the team if you don't mind tonight. And he's like, yeah. I was like, shit, what am I going to say? Like, no, no, no.

Starting point is 02:22:52 But he let me. What did you say to them? The gist of what I told them was a couple of things that are important to me. As I said, if I could be anywhere in the world right now, it would be back with my soldiers in Iraq. But I know that's not possible. But I said, but I've had the privilege of seeing you all become a team. And I would take every one of you with me. And I told them that we were gonna be victorious tomorrow and that was that had to be a pretty powerful moment that's pretty amazing

Starting point is 02:23:57 yeah and they pulled off the impossible they beat the undefeated 18-0 Patriots yep that's incredible. But on that note, because we haven't really talked about this, you're going through this rehab period. Yeah, so all this is happening during my rehab. I'm still having surgeries. I start grad school in May of

Starting point is 02:24:18 2008, so literally a year after I got wounded. I'm at grad school in Georgetown working on a master's degree. Wow. I mean, that's amazing. But at the same time, you just did you did 17 years in the military. You were four years in West Point before that. And that heartfelt speech you give the Giants to propel them to the Super Bowl. It's also uncovering an internal thing with you because you have to start a new life. You're not, you know, the calling that you had had and sacrificed so much for,

Starting point is 02:24:53 the worst part about what happens after this is you can't do that anymore. No, I could. I stayed on. I actually stayed in uniform for seven years from when I got wounded. Right, but not on the battlefield. Right. Right? I had to reinvent myself.

Starting point is 02:25:09 I had to keep going. I mean, obviously, you did, and that's amazing. But what's that like psychologically to know you can't do what you'd spent your entire adult life doing? Who says you can't? Because I could. I just did it differently. Did it differently. Perspective.

Starting point is 02:25:31 Yep. That's pretty cool. So for seven years you stayed on? Yep, yeah. And what kinds of jobs? So I went to grad school, and then I did an Army War College fellowship at the Institute of World Politics. And then I got approved to stay on active duty. And my first job was I served as a director of the Army Wounded Warrior Program for two years.

Starting point is 02:25:56 Oh, wow. So I got to run a program that helped people like me, wounded, injured, or ill, you know, begin their transition, either back to the uniform or out of uniform. And then my last job was the garrison commander of Fort Belvoir. And so essentially I was the mayor slash city manager of a military post. Wow. Serious job. A base that supported 52,000 Department of Defense employees. What made you finally get out?

Starting point is 02:26:29 It seems like you'd still be there. I was having enough fun. I was ready to move on. Yeah, that's incredible. I love that perspective. Just did something else, but did the same thing. And you got a second Super Bowl ring too, right? Yeah.

Starting point is 02:26:44 So everybody says the first one was a fluke. We did got a second Super Bowl ring too, right? Yeah. So everybody says the first one was a fluke. We did it again in Super Bowl XLVI. And were you talking to the team this time again? Yeah. Not so much. Yes, but I say more. Actually, by this time, I was really hanging out with them a lot. I was going to more of their games.

Starting point is 02:27:02 And they just, I mean, if I wanted to go to every game, I could have. But, you know, I was still active doing the Army. Yeah. But, yeah. And then at some point you become a Hollywood movie star. Yeah, yeah, along the way. Hollywood, you know, yeah. You know, Peter Berg, you saw the, you peter berg is a big giants fan and and uh you

Starting point is 02:27:26 know he wanted to honor me by by making me part of his project and i think that's incredibly gracious and generous of him that take a chance on somebody who never played a tree in a school play much less active before yeah yeah i was we were talking before the podcast. I had been wondering. I'm like, why does this face look familiar? And I was telling you guys when I used to edit all the shorts and everything, I'd be going through B-roll like crazy. So the movie Battleship that you were in, I've never watched the movie. But I've seen almost every scene. You've probably watched 20 hours of the movie. Oh, my God.

Starting point is 02:28:01 Yeah. And I've used footage that you were in those scenes and stuff before. And that you in the movie that's so cool now you gotta watch it yeah yeah now i actually have to watch it do we have one of those scenes up yeah i don't know we can we can probably try to put that in the background right with the cameras in the left and right hand corner if we stick that audio i don't know i don't know about the actually leave the audio off that's a good call let's open this up this This is a badass scene, too. Because you have... You're going up and going toe-to-toe

Starting point is 02:28:30 with a goddamn Transformer. Yeah. And you were saying you like to do everything on the first take? Yeah, well, I try to. That's my goal. Oh, my God. What year was this you were filming this?

Starting point is 02:28:47 2010. The movie came out in April of 2012, but we did the filming from August to November of 2010. And those are your actual prosthetics too, right? Yeah. Do you ever wear them? Yeah, I wear them a little bit. Not so much now. It's a lot of work.

Starting point is 02:29:06 Right. And it's good work. But I'm a big camera geek. I carry around a lot of camera gear. And I can't really carry my camera around. I got to show them some of the pictures you took. Or it was Africa, right? Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 02:29:21 What were you doing in Africa? I was on a safari. Where? Kenya. Nice. Yep, Samburu and Masai Maru. was africa right yeah yeah what were you doing in africa i was on a safari where um kenya nice yep some buru and uh masai mara oh that's awesome yeah one of my really good friends is is i'm very passionate about this but one of my really good friends has been on the podcast a couple times he was a recon marine was in afghanistan and iraq and worked for the state department afterwards found out about the poaching crisis, which was being funded through terror.

Starting point is 02:29:48 It was being, they were funding terror groups from like East Asia to kill elephants, rhinos, pangolins, lions, and all that. And he went over there and started this organization working with African governments of all ex-GWOC veterans who are protecting the animals now. Nice. And so they're doing, now they're trying to get some tourism over there as well to help support what they're doing. Yeah, like Kenya, there's no wildlife hunting at all in Kenya. And you see, you know, I guess you'd call them like, I don't want to call them game wardens or forest mice,

Starting point is 02:30:21 but they're little three and four man groups that are out there in their trucks, you know, armed, you know, trying to make sure people aren't poaching. But I'm telling you, one of the top five experiences of my life was I was out there for a week, and I'm a Leica shooter, so. A what? A Leica camera. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Red dot. Yeah, yeahica shooter, so. A what? A Leica camera. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 02:30:45 Red dot. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so. I bet you got, I got to see those pictures afterwards. I bet you got some amazing stuff. Yeah. Yeah, I want to do that so badly. Ryan's been bothering me to get over there.

Starting point is 02:30:56 I got to take like two weeks to do it. Yeah, you got to. I'm telling you, it's a life experience. Yeah. Well, when I have guys like you in here, obviously we talk about the most difficult situations, but we're talking about war. We're talking about seeing the worst and the best of humanity, depending on the context for sure. But, you know, I often ask you guys, like, do you think there will always be war? Like in our lifetime, do you think that that

Starting point is 02:31:26 is just something that is in human nature sadly yes yep um um it's it's you know the question is is is is is humankind gonna ever stop trying to take advantage of humankind and the answer is uh no they're not gonna they, they're going to keep, that's, that's part of humanity, unfortunately. And as long as somebody wants to take something from somebody, Elks, we're going to have war. Yeah. What do you think as someone who served in Iraq and obviously saw that, you know that that didn't end up great either, what do you – again, you guys are there to do the mission. But looking back on that, you had mentioned when you were getting there in 07, you're starting to wonder like what are some of these guys not dying for something? How do you deal with that?

Starting point is 02:32:23 Because you sacrificed yourself out there too well your friends died um how do i how do i uh how do how do i become at peace maybe that's uh which is is look um first of all it's it's about the oath that i took and the oath that I took didn't, it has nothing to do with whether I agree with the decision. I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America. And, and so that's my oath.

Starting point is 02:32:57 That's my duty. And my responsibility is to the soldiers that, that served under me. And, and I'm completely at peace with that. You seem it. That's great. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:33:08 That's awesome. I know I got to get you north for a wedding. So we do have to get you out of here. But this has been amazing. Thanks to you. You're an unbelievable inspiration, obviously. Thank you for hooking us up, John. As always, man.

Starting point is 02:33:20 Thank you for having me. Of course, dude. This has been great. And we'll have the link to your podcast with Colonel G gadsden down in the description below as well really good you guys gotten some other stuff there that we didn't talk about today yeah but you're a real inspiration man thank you so much and thank you for your service hey do you mind uh i mean you could probably pipe it in later but uh do a do a plug for my book oh my god Please tell us about your book. We'll have the link in description. Yeah. So Finding Waypoints, it's about a lot of my life in this journey and coming to being at peace with it. And it was a 16-year project with my co-author, Therese Lochter, and it's been doing pretty well.

Starting point is 02:34:07 We've gotten, I think there's been four awards that we've gotten so far. Just got released on the 7th of November of last year. Michael Strahan had as a guest on GMA when it got released. So that was kind of cool. That's really cool. So 15 years in the making too. 16. Wow.

Starting point is 02:34:34 That's amazing. We will have the link to that down below. I have a feeling people are going to want to buy that after listening to this podcast. Make sure you go check out that book, Finding Waypoints. Colonel Gadsden, thank you so much, sir. Thanks, Julian. I appreciate you.

Starting point is 02:34:48 You bet. All right, everybody else, you know what it is. Give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace. Thank you guys for watching the episode. Before you leave, please be sure to hit that subscribe button

Starting point is 02:34:57 and smash that like button on the video. It's a huge help. And also, if you're over on Instagram, be sure to follow the show at Julian Dory Podcast or also on my personal page at Julian D. Dory. Both links are in the description below. Finally, if you'd like to catch up on our latest episodes, use the Julian Dory Podcast playlist link in the description below. Thank you.

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Julian Dorey Podcast - #233 - Army Commando, Col. Greg Gadson

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