Julian Dorey Podcast - #234 - Mafia Kingpin’s Paranormal Daughter Meets FBI Mob Hunter | Rita Gigante & Jim DiOrio

Episode Date: September 7, 2024

(***TIMESTAMPS in description below) ~ Rita Gigante is the daughter of Vincent "The Chin" Gigante, the legendary former boss of the Genovese crime family in New York City. Jim DiOrio is a 25-Year FBI Special Agent and West Point Graduate who served in the Special Forces for 8 years. RITA’S LINKS: Rita’s Book (The Godfather's Daughter): https://www.amazon.com/Godfathers-Daughter-Unlikely-Healing-Redemption/dp/1401938817 Soft White Underbelly: https://youtu.be/OO_BBdn7ecE?si=BKtXKSWV0sJ6uX3Y ​​ EPISODE LINKS - Julian Dorey PODCAST MERCH: https://juliandorey.myshopify.com/  - Support our Show on PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/JulianDorey   - BUY Guest’s Books & Films IN MY AMAZON STORE: https://amzn.to/3RPu952   FOLLOW JULIAN DOREY INSTAGRAM (Podcast): https://www.instagram.com/juliandoreypodcast/  INSTAGRAM (Personal): https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey/  X: https://twitter.com/julianddorey JULIAN YT CHANNELS - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Clips YT: https://www.youtube.com/@juliandoreyclips   - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Daily YT: https://www.youtube.com/@JulianDoreyDaily   - SUBSCRIBE to Best of JDP: https://www.youtube.com/@bestofJDP   Get $150 Off The Eight Sleep Pod Pro Mattress / Mattress Cover (USING CODE: “JULIANDOREY”): ⁠⁠⁠https://eight-sleep.ioym.net/trendifier⁠⁠⁠ ****TIMESTAMPS**** 00:00 - Rita’s Famous Mafia Boss Father & What Life Was Like 11:57 - Vincent Louis Gigante Pretending to be Schizophrenic & Traumatic Moment 19:49 - Rita Suffering from OCD & Panic Attacks, Her Relationship w/ Dad (Psychic Powers) 27:42 - Rita Facing Her Biggest Fear, Psychic Powers to Talk to Vincent Louis Gigante 32:59 - Did Rita Love her Father, Getting in School Fights 46:57  - Who was Vincent Louis Gigante (Boss of 5 Families) 56:53 - Controversy of Mafia Families Selling Drugs, FBI Surveillance 01:09:26 - Vincent Louis Gigante Prison Life & Rita’s Book 01:19:03 - Rita’s Big Secret 01:29:44 - Which Family Members were ‘Made’ & How FBI Make Case  01:39:53 - Growing w/ Mafia Family (Moral Dilemmas)  01:47:58 - Lou Ferrante’s Connection to Rita Gigante  01:51:34 - Mafia Guy Tino Fiumara & FBI Tracking Him 02:01:30 - Vincent Louis Gigante’s View on FBI  02:10:41 - After Vincent Louis Gigante’s Death 02:18:42 - Are we a Monogamous Being/Sensitive Side of Vincent Louis Gigante 02:27:54 - Find Rita & Jim CREDITS: - Host, Producer, and Editor: Julian Dorey - In-Studio Producer: Alessi Allaman - https://www.instagram.com/allaman.docyou/ Julian Dorey Podcast Episode 234 - Rita Gigante Music by Artlist.io Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It sounds like he never talked about it directly with you, but like maybe through other your siblings or other people who told you what was your dad's thoughts on the FBI outside of like, oh, he didn't like them because they were chasing him. Like, what do you think about their tactics or how they did their job? You know, he's in my head right now. Tell Diorio to shut up. Say hi to Vinny. He just knew he was smarter and he knew he could get around them. He trusted, this was one thing he would say to me all the time, I don't trust my left hand for my right.

He said, so I don't trust anyone. Hey guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please take a second to hit that button and leave a five-star review. It is a huge, huge help to the show. And you can not following me on Spotify, please take a second to hit that button and leave a five star review. It is a huge, huge help to the show. You can also follow me on Instagram and on X by using the links in my description. Thank you. Rita, thank you so much for coming today. It's great to talk with you. Oh, pleasure, hon.

Thanks for having me. Of course. Of course. I actually I wanted to talk to you for a while because I had seen your Mark Laida interview on Soft White Underbelly while I was working probably like a year ago. Sometimes I'll put someone in the background. I'm like, oh, she's really cool. She was literally the daughter of the guy. So I'm glad we can do this, get a first person view up close as to what the peak of the mafia looked like in a, because you grew up in it.

Sure. And we are joined today by someone I don't think your dad would have liked very much, but nonetheless. He would have loved it. We're joined by, as many fans know, Special Agent Jim DiIorio, who you worked some OC throughout your 25 years, obviously. Organized crime. No doubt.

I figured this would be good to kind of have like as a co-host where we could have a little from both sides how they might have been seeing it as things were going down. But to start off for people who are unfamiliar with your father and listening right now, who was your father? So my dad was the head of the Genovese crime family in Manhattan, Vincent Giganti. And he was actually also the head of the commission, which meant he could pretty much rule the five families. They would have to come to him to get permission to do anything, you know, anything that they wanted to do that was out, let's say, outside of the box, so to speak. They would have to come and ask him permission to do that was outs let's say outside of the box so to speak they would have to come and ask him permission to do it and that's like if if they needed to off someone high up or something like that okay exactly now when when were you born 1967. so were you aware from a young age who your father was or was that something that came later?

Because it's not like you're coming up with the internet where you can go Google who your dad is, you know? You kind of have to hear what you're allowed to say. Like when did you figure it out and put it all together? I figured it out. I was told at 16. But you know how children know things that they don't know how they know them, but they know them, you know? So growing up with, you know, the phone was always off the hook. The TV and the radio were always on simultaneously.

You know, there would be men coming into my grandmother's apartment and they'd sit around the dining room table and nobody would really speak. It was always they would get up and it would be just about a whisper to him. But again, the TV, the radio, everything was on. So I would watch this, you know, and I would wonder what, what is, what is all of this? Who, who is he really? I knew he was somebody important, but I had no idea to what degree, you know? And I remember watching that and who would pass him a note and then he would give them some kind of command because they would come over to him and he would whisper. And then the note would be ripped up

and either flushed down the toilet or burned at that point. So, and they will, I have to tell you, and most people, you know, when I say this, they're kind of baffled a little bit, but these were guys that were in my life from the time I was born. Oh yeah. So I loved them like they were uncles, you know, they, they weren't bad men to me ever, you know? Um, so I enjoyed when they used to come and they used to even come on holidays, you know, and spend time with us. So it was, um, but that's how it, you know, that's how I began to understand that something,

something, he was very important, but I didn't know to what degree and how. Now, also growing up in my life. It won't take long to tell you Neutrals ingredients. Vodka, soda, natural flavors. So, what should we talk about? No sugar added? Neutral. Refreshingly simple. Why do fintechs like Float choose Visa?

As a more trusted, more secure payments network, Visa provides scale, expertise, and innovative payment solutions. Learn more at visa.ca slash fintech. You know, you just knew not to ask questions. Don't ask me how that is, because it just is what it is, right? You know not to ask questions. You know that if you do, you could be in trouble. And everything was very secretive. The shades were always shut, so we didn't even know if it was light or dark out.

We don't know here either. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So it was depressing a lot, you know, because it was a four-room apartment. Now, when I was born, there was already four other kids. And there was two German shepherds that lived with us in that apartment. Oh, my God. So I was six months.

It was July of 67. Came out to New Jersey. And he stayed with us about a year. You were in an apartment in Jersey? No, no. We ended up in the house that my mother lived in and we lived in. And so once that happened, he stayed about a year. I was a year and a half when him and my mother got arrested for a Christmas gift that they gave the police department. It was $50 and a check.

My sister actually walked the check in. You know, it was like, it was fucking ridiculous. You know, here we are. And him and my mother get arrested. And that was it. He's like, I'm going back to the city. All charges were dropped. But, you know, he was like, I'm done with this fucking town.

How many heads dropped for those charges to be dropped? Wow. It was just ridiculous. Over 50 bucks. 50 bucks. Come on. Yeah. We finally got him.

Yeah. Right? The daughter. Take the daughter down, too. Oh, man. Come on. We finally got him. Yeah. Right? It's the daughter. Take the daughter down, too. Oh, man. All right. So he, and if I understood this correctly, he had a gumad named Olympia as well, right? Yes.

Same name as your mother. So he had a separate family. He had a separate family and a separate life. They lived on Park Avenue. Well, actually, they lived in Jersey first. And then he moved them back to the city and moved my mother out to Jersey. Did you know about them at all when you were growing up? I didn't know until I was 21 maybe. Oh, wow. Yeah. Do you have a relationship with any of

those kids today? No, no. We met a long time ago and we went out few times, and we, you know, we, it was nice. I mean, it wasn't, but it wasn't, you know, it was hard. He made it hard. Yeah. You know, it could have been different, but he made it very hard. And we were out one night, and they thought that my father was married to their mother and my mother was the other woman. So I guess I wasn't supposed to drop the-

Oh, you dropped the truth bomb on them. I dropped the truth bomb and then- How'd that go down? Not good. Yeah. Not good. But he didn't blame me. He blamed my other sister, which she didn't.

She didn't. It was me. But she took the slap for me. Wait, how so? If you told them? They didn't know it was you? Yeah, no. They knew it was me, but they didn't say it was me.

They never said who it was. Is it like your daughter told us? Yeah. And then he went to my other sister, and he just automatically thought it was me. They never said who it was. You said like your daughter told us. Yeah. And then he went to my other sister and he just, you know, automatically thought it was her. Yeah. Was she the same sister that delivered the check to the PD? No.

Okay. Different one. No, different one. I would have blamed it right there too. That's gotta be so hard. My oldest sister was very close to my dad. Okay. Very close.

One of his, I would say the, one of the closest where he would confide a lot of things to her that were really not to be, you know, confided in a kid 15 years old. Like this other family. Oh, he told her all about that. Wow. Now you were the youngest on this part of the family, right? You were the youngest of five? And you were a lot younger than your other siblings? Yeah, because my brother, the one above me, is 10 years older.

Oh, wow. And the oldest sister is almost 16 years old. Okay, because that was going to be my next question. You found out when you were 16, you said you were told, who told you again? A friend of the family. Okay, so it wasn't your siblings. So your siblings never... Outed me?

No. Well, you never went to them when you were like 11, 12 and kind of figuring some stuff out? I asked a lot of questions as I got older. But I got told, you know, daddy's sick and that's all you need to know and that's all you need to tell people. Right. So he had a heart condition. That was evident because he had major open heart surgery. He was a boxer. So maybe he had a little bit of

head injury, but not where he couldn't do what he did. Right. Obviously. Now, for people out there who aren't familiar with your dad, just like a little extra background here. So as you said, he was like the boss of all bosses and everything but he is historically one of the most interesting guys in the history of the mafia because he created this scheme where he would essentially fake that he had schizophrenia and what and he did this for like 30 years i mean the guy should have gotten a fucking oscar i mean it's it's pretty

incredible because the fbi and i'm sure jim will talk about this the fbi would track him everywhere he goes but he'd walk through the streets of new york or the streets of new jersey or whatever in a bathrobe you know like shaking to himself with your brother or sometimes you on his arm when did like i had read that he started doing some of that even in the late 60s which would have been like when you were a baby yeah right. Right. But like, when did you first see that? And what did you think? Because he turned into someone else when he got behind closed doors. Guys, if you're not following me on Instagram, you can get me at Julian Dory podcast or also on my personal page at Julian D. Dory. Those links are in the description below. You can also follow me on X at Julian D. Dory.

That link is in the description below. And as also follow me on X at Julian D. Dory. That link is in the description below. And as always, please smash that subscribe button if you haven't already and hit that like button on the video. It is a huge, huge help. I appreciate all of you who have been subbing and all of you who are liking all these videos. Thank you. I was a teenager. I was a teenager. And, you know, I was questioning more and more all that stuff. And I would just do it if he said to me, we're going for a walk. We're going for a walk.

It's not like I says, yeah, I don't feel like going. I got my steps already today. Yeah, right? We're going. So he used to tell me, make like you're holding me six feet and I'm 5'1". What age is that? What age is that? He's first doing that.

Oh, God. I probably right after I found out, I would say. Oh, he's like, oh, so she's good for the walks now. Yeah. Authorized. That was actually, that was hard because, you know, either someone would be walking by looking at us like, what the fuck is going on here?

And I'd be looking at him, listen, you don't know my fucking life. Shut up. Mind your business. Or they'd be like this, pulling that hat down to him because they know him. Right. Because he took care of the neighborhood. I think it was harder for me to have to walk into a mental hospital when he would check himself in.

Oh, that's right. He would do that too yeah if he felt they were really close to him like the fbi was really getting close he would check himself into saint vincent's hospital in harrison new york for like three weeks at a time he was dedicated oh gosh this man was dedicated no he was on the third floor with all of them that had schizophrenia bipolar and for, that was brutal. Oh, I can't even imagine. I've never been in one of those places, and I never want to be.

I never want to see what that looks like. It's sad. It's very sad. And for me, that was like, all right, now you're making a mockery out of people who are really fucking sick. You know what I mean? Like they're ill. So I know why he did it and i i you know i get it but it was it was brutal for me yeah yeah as a as a as your

father you had to be like i don't want to do it's scary it's scary enough yeah right to have to have to go there anyway for an hour then you know the whole thing that's going on it's got to be really really tough i will tell you the truth it would take me about 10 minutes and I would fall asleep in the room because I just couldn't, I was like, I'm done. Too much going on. Yeah. Way too much. It was better when we sat outside on the grounds. The grounds were beautiful. So we used to sit in a gazebo and my mother, of course, would bring him everything he wanted to eat and all of that. But that made it a little bit easier because we were there three hours, four hours. This wasn't like a 15-minute visit and we were gone.

Yeah. You know? Now, when you were growing up long before you knew, like how young did you at least deduce as a curious child that your dad maybe had a dangerous streak in him? I deduced that at a very young age because I was five years old when I witnessed him beating someone, which he did not know that I was underneath my grandmother's dining room table. Wow.

And my mother and my grandmother were in the building, but they weren't in the house. And he dragged somebody into the apartment. I heard the footsteps. I heard the building, but they weren't in the house. And he dragged somebody into the apartment. I heard the footsteps. I heard the men. But I didn't hear him. I didn't hear him. All I heard was like when you hit somebody, you hear like that crack. Guy fell to the floor.

I backed up underneath the table, and I just put my arms around my legs, and I started to tremble. Now don't forget, we got Italian music in the background. We got a TV on. And I see my father's hand just up and down, like smashing him. And the only reason why I knew is because he had his ring on. He had a pinky ring on that I knew was his. What's the vantage point?

So you're seeing him actually come into contact, but he's too high. Because the guy hits the floor. He's too high. He's too high. I see his hand. Oh, my God. I see his hand, and the blood starts trickling to my feet because he's ripping the man's face apart at this point. And the last thing, he does his step on him.

And then he, like, above a whisper, you could hear, don't ever fucking disrespect me again. Get him out of here. That was it. Done. And I just sat there in total shock and held my breath because like, you know, when you want to scream, but you know you can't. So all of that ended, and then my mother and my grandmother, wherever they were, they came back in,

and they were yelling for me because nobody could find me. They didn't know where I went. So he had left the room at this point. Yeah. Is the blood still all on the floor? No one, obviously. Well, it's going to get cleaned up, but it wasn't at that point. They dragged me out from underneath the table, and I couldn't speak.

I was just shaking, and my mother's like, it's okay, it's okay it's okay you know daddy just got upset he got mad and at that moment i guess the subconscious just buried that shit because i didn't remember it till i almost finished writing my book i had a flashback you didn't remember it no what that's a yeah it's a psychological doozy oh yeah that's that's how you survive right yeah just buried it and so but you're five years old five little girl curled up underneath there watching this did you know the man who was beating had you ever seen him before no i did not but i'm going to tell you a story that you're not going to believe about a month and a half ago, I get an email from a man

who says he was from the neighborhood and his father owned a hairdressing, like he did hair, you know, and I think he was on 6th Avenue and they lived right close proximity to where we lived. And he said to me his brother had passed away, but his brother told him a story about when he owed my father a lot of money, his father. And so he ended up with a beating, but he didn't die. Cause I always questioned that this man died in my head. And that was the man. This was about a month and a half ago wow and and and because he read my book that's how he knew and he knew so he wanted to contact me and i didn't know i i didn't know

it you know i felt bad because i think he felt bad you know but i'm like no this was your father like i you know he got his ass kicked and I watched the whole thing. I still haven't reached out to him yet and I will. I just, it's almost like, what do I say? Do I say I'm terribly sorry that, you know, he got his ass kicked? But he made it, he didn't sound like he was upset or anything in the email. Yeah, why, in all honesty, I mean, my dad didn't get his ass kicked by a mobster, but still, like, I don't know why he'd be mad at you for it. Like, how is that your fault?

No, it's just, I guess I feel bad. I think you're a witness to, you know, for him to heal. Maybe. Maybe that's part of your healing. Maybe, yeah. Which I think is so cool, you know? It just, it struck me, like, you know. My heart went out to him and his brother who passed and his father. I said a prayer in their name, and I said, wow, talk about full circle.

Yeah. You know what I mean? It was just full circle. And I guess when I said to my father, because I talk to him all the time now, I'd like to know if he was okay. Did something happen to him or did he live and he lived that's that's a full circle is a good way to put it that's that's a creative i i hope you guys have a great interaction when when you do decide to do that but too that's that's really because like as a little girl you said, you repressed it for so many years because it's so traumatic.

But I'm going to guess it affected your behavior around your dad, obviously. Oh, my God. Yeah. How did you feel about him? Immediately, I started with anxiety attacks at the age of five. Panic attacks at the age of seven. OCD. What would happen when you get a panic attack?

So panic attack is like being hit by a bus without realizing it's coming, right? You go into full sweat, heart starts to race. You feel like you're dying, pass out, whatever. So that's what was happening to me. I didn't want to leave home. I didn't want to go to school. I wanted to stay home with my mother

because I was afraid, not just for me, but for her. So after witnessing something like that, I was afraid. Not just for me, but for her. So after witnessing something like that, I was just afraid. So I knew. I mean, that would tell any five-year-old, don't open up your mouth. Don't ask questions. You can't go to your father, actually, and tell him anything that you feel because, you know. And then at the age of 10, I was plagued by OCD, which was a lifesaver for me, honestly.

It's a lifesaver. Yeah, it's how I survived. That and sports were the only things that kept me like, you know. What about OCD made you survive? Why do you put it that way? Because I felt like I had no control because it was like, you know, I felt the need to have to control something. It was like, okay, then I'll control the clothes that I wear. I'll control the food that I eat.

I'll control all these other things so that, you know, I feel some kind of normalcy in me, you know. Yeah, and that's, I mean, you said you got that seven or eight you developed that? The panic attacks at seven. And then what was the OCD? The OCD around 10 years old. So you're that young and there's already some sort of like subconscious messaging system in you to be like, I need to take control of something in my life. Yeah. That's – I can't –

Don't trust. Don't trust. You can't trust. That I can't fathom. And I have some OCD as well. And I understand those intrusive thoughts. I understand like developing control over things. But like with mine, it happened more just naturally as my life progressed. It wasn't, as far as I know, maybe I need to talk to a psychiatrist about this, but it wasn't like one event that then suddenly like made me at one point there rewire my brain be like no i will do this right for that that's a whole different type of onset right there sure absolutely so you get in the panic how often did those happen often often enough where i was i was out of school

more than i was in school so by the time I reached my junior year in high school or sophomore year in high school, I only had a sixth grade reading level. Wow. Yeah. I often wondered how they pushed me through, but then I realized, well... Later, it'll come to you.

Sorry. Got a lot of help. My mother took me for a lot of help, but by the time I was a senior, I took matters into my own hands, and I just... i had a great um english teacher and i uh read the great gatsby oh great book i turned my whole life around one book one book one teacher turned all of that around for me did it like unlock your love for

reading kind of thing i was reading three books a day. I'm sorry, three books a week. That's great. Yeah. Just one right after the other. So my vocabulary just increased and increased and increased. It was, yeah. Of course. So, I mean, your dad, though, if you were getting pushed through in school,

as you now know you definitely were, he had to know things were up with you. And he knows. Of course he knows. And he knows, he also knows like you have a great IQ. That's not the issue. It's some other things holding you back. Did he ever, how involved was he with the medical side of trying to look into what might be holding you back? Not involved at all. He left it to my mom and my oldest sister. How'd that make you feel that he wasn't involved at all. He left it to my mom and my oldest sister. How did that make you feel that he wasn't involved at all? Well, you know, listen, I was six months when he left, right?

So I would see him, but not as often as they grew up with him. You know? So I, you know, his and my relationship was like, I would come into the apartment. I would sit down. He'd say, how you doing? I'd say, I would come into the apartment and I would sit down and he'd say, how you doing? I'd say, I'm okay. How's school? Good.

How's your mother? She's good. You taking care of her? Yeah. All right, done. End of story. Kind of going through the motions. Going through the motions.

Really didn't want to hear if you had any issues or problems. No, not for a long time until I got a little bit older Going through the motions. Yep. Going through the motions. Really didn't want to hear if you had any issues or problems. No. Not for a long time until I got a little bit older and I would tell him things that I used to be afraid to talk to him. And then I was just like, fuck it. I'm just going to say it and what I get, I get. Right? And also I'd tell him I was doing really good in school or I graduated summa cum laude. And then I graduated massage school, which hema cum laude or, um, I, and then I

graduated massage school, which he hated and didn't want me to go. But my mother told him, leave her alone. You know, she's going. Um, and that's honestly, that's when I began my work as a psychic medium. That was the tipping point for me. And what was like when you say psychic medium what are you referring to specifically? So I could I could I could put my hands on somebody in massage school and I could tell what was going on in their bodies physically because I'm an empath. What an empath is is someone who could feel everybody's shit right. I could feel if somebody's depressed. I could feel if they're angry. I could feel if they're enraged. I could feel if they're angry i could feel if they're enraged i could feel if they're sad so i would put my hands on somebody and i would start getting images of what was going on in the body and i could start to feel what was happening in the liver or the kidneys or here or

there i didn't know how i just knew it was happening and then i would tell people this what do you mean images like images in my head I closed my eyes and I would get images of their body. Like the actual body parts. Not what they're causing, so to speak. Well, sometimes I would get a flash or I would hear like they're depressed because of blah, blah, blah. They lost somebody very close to them or, you know, I didn't know what was going on. I was just kind of going with it. And once that happened, I got brought into a place where people were introduced to me that they were doing this work already. And now I was being taught by others what was happening to me, why it was happening, how I could, you know, increase my abilities.

Yeah. But the massage is what helped that. Is that Reiki? Is that similar to Reiki or is it different? Reiki is an energy healing. Okay. But as you're doing Reiki, you could get information. You could sense.

You could sense stuff. Absolutely. Okay. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I got to think, and it seems like, it seems like you're kind of hinting at this, but a lot of, it's pretty much like your life's traumas are what make you the empath. And

then, you know, you're constantly just aware of what other people are, are what vibes they're giving off, so to speak. Is it, is it that simple or is that oversimplifying? No, no, it's not oversimplifying it. I mean, I that way i knew when i was very sensitive um but nobody back then knew what an empath was it's not like a five years old my mother goes oh she's an empath let's take it to the right and get us some help you know so so that was you know that was not going to happen so they tried sending me to the school psychologist and i ran from her because i didn't like her energy and she spoke like with this really heavy crazy accent i was just like i'm not going back try trying to medicate you or find a way to

put you in the crazy room yeah they only tried medicating me once which had an adverse reaction because they gave me too many things at one time. And that just had me hallucinate and all kinds of things. So that was the end of that. How old were you when that happened? I was 20, 19. Oh, man. Yeah, because I had tried to come out to my mom and dad at 19. You came out to your dad?

Oh, yeah. Tried. I jumped back in. What do you mean you jumped? Wait, wait, wait. Let's unpack that. What do you mean you tried? So growing up, I was very sick. I had a lot of upper respiratory infections. I had pneumonia.

I had a lot of stomach issues. Because I knew at the age of 10 I was gay. And I knew that was never flying in this family. So I didn't tell anybody. So I had to hold all these secrets. And he had secrets. I had secrets. We were all had fucking secrets. Nobody could tell each other. Family secrets. You know. So at 19, I was tired of being sick, tired of depression, tired of anxiety. So I'm like, you know what? I'm going to do it. I'm going to jump. I'm going to come out of the closet. I'm going to see what happens.

Petrified, sweating like an animal, palms like, you know, forget it. Couldn't even rub them together. He was visiting my mother, our house at that point. And I just knocked on the door and I said, if I don't do it now, I'm never going to do it. I sat on the bed and I said, listen, I have to say something. And they looked at me like, oh, my God, what's coming? And they're like, no, no problem. You can tell us anything you have to say.

It's okay. And I said, listen, I like women. I said, I've known for a long time. This is who I am, blah, blah, blah. Full-on expected he's going to get up and, you know, I'm going to get a backhand. I'll probably fly out the door, right? Instead, I got the complete opposite. I got a very calm answer and I got, Ray, it's okay. It's just a phase you're going through.

Oh, boy. A little phase argument. So many people go through these phases. It's all right. You'll get better. Don't worry about it. You'll get past it. You'll get married.

You'll have kids. You'll take care of your mother. And I looked at him. And you know I'm an empath, so I could feel it, right? And I says, oh, motherfucker, I'm in trouble. I am in such fucking trouble that I wish I could have just took the words and pulled them back into my mouth. And I said to him, you know what? You're right.

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Oh. Probably some fear, too. I get it. I was like, I'm dead. Yeah. If I don't fucking, you know, change this. He probably had fear. The boss of all bosses.

He probably had fear as well. Yeah. afraid somebody finds out what somebody finds out because that'll be a disgrace to the family i'm going to hell because that's how the catholic religion felt about he was still catholic that's yes yeah five rosaries a day all the fucking statues lined up five rosaries a day i would he had ocd i would move his statues just to aggravate him so padre pio supposed to be over here oh he came he came running outside who moved my shit because me and my sister were cleaning the house i just looked at her i said she did it that. The one who took the check to the cops. No, it was the other one.

The other one. So he would look at me with that. He had the look. He would look at me with that look, and then I would smile, and then he would smile. Like, that would be, like, I really was the only one that could fucking get away with shit like that as I got older, right? He never hit me, never never ever came at me that

way because he knew of the anxiety and the panic because of my mother and she would always tell him don't don't because i was the closest to her and he had obviously because you had even repressed it so it's not like you were talking about that initial memory when you were five but he had no understanding that you had ever seen him at all in action so to speak right no did he think that you knew what he was when you were 13 or 14 i think he might have surmised something which i surmised that he was important i just didn't know he was giving orders to kill people you know or racketeering or this or that i just you know maybe he owned something you know i didn't i didn't know but it was too secretive there was too

many secrets there was too many people running around whispering there was a phone off the hook there was tvs and radio yeah there was shades closed it was so you know you just don't know you don't know what what exactly yeah the how or so to speak something like that so he didn't point being though he didn't tie those he didn't tie your issues back to himself it seems like he didn't think of it that way he just thought like oh she's a little fucked up no he didn't or if he did nobody knew that okay i know it now that he knows it but i wouldn't have known it when he was well well, that's not true. I did because I wrote to him in jail.

So we got to an understanding before he passed. But then when he passed and he came to me, because again, I'm a medium, so I can speak to the other side. When he came to me, when he passed, everything was laid out on the table. What happened there? How did that go down?

Oh yeah, that was, he he passes in 2005 and maybe six months later um i'm doing a healing on someone in my home and it's a believe it not, it's a man who knew my father. Okay. He was not fully in, but in. Associate. Yep. And my father had asked him to, while he was alive, to watch out for me. So, because he had gifts as well, this man. So he said, your father came to

me and he told me to take care of you. And so he came to me when I was working and he wanted to apologize for everything and lay it all out on the table. And as I got my hands on this man, I'm hearing him and I'm getting visuals of him. And he's asking me for forgiveness. And he's saying, I want to see if I can, you know, clear some of my karma and redemption, which is part of my book, Love, Healing, and Redemption. And he said, would you be willing to work with me to do this? And I said, well, what would it mean? And he says, well, I would come while you're having sessions and help you. And I thought for a second, like, who's going to come here that he could help me with

unless they're from that life? You can't even imagine how many, right? you can't even imagine but it wasn't just that life there were others as well kids who wanted to get into that life took came for healing because they just wanted to meet me and ended up walking out and not going into that life oh that's interesting that's powerful because he came through to speak so how long after his death did you say that was? About six months. Six months. Now, you're just hearing him. You're not necessarily seeing him.

I can see the vision, but it began with me feeling him. He was like a bull in a china shop. He was going to other psychics and mediums that were my friends, colleagues, and he was waking them up in the middle of the night and saying, call my daughter. You got to tell her I'm trying to get in touch with her. Call my daughter. And I'm getting phone calls going, Reed, can you tell him to back off? Like, can he come like during the day?

And I'm like, I'm like, Dad, you know. So once I started to talk to him, then he didn't go to anybody else, you know. And so that's it. I have more conversations with him now than I ever did when he was alive. Well, that was going to be my next question because this is interesting, obviously. Like this is otherworldly, quite literally. Yeah. But when he was alive, after you – it's clear before you were 13, like there's, as you laid out, just a conversational relationship, like light conversation. Like, did you love your father because he was your dad, but not really love him?

I loved him because he was my dad, but I saw sides of him that not many people would know unless I came out and said it, right? Like what? So he loved elvis presley so if i put elvis presley music on he'd get up with his rope slippers and he'd start that's where he got the shake from there you go that's where he got it two left feet couldn't dance worth the shit if they went out like because him and my mother would go out to the copacabana when he would make his friends dance with him. Oh, my God.

He would not dance. But he would get up in the apartment and start shimmying, you know, if Elvis Presley was on. So I could see who he was in those moments. I could make him laugh. I don't know anybody else that. You were afraid of him, but you could make him laugh. As I got older. The fear lessened as i got

older i knew what i could do i knew what i couldn't i knew what i could get away with and he would just look at me like were you the baby of all the kids no there's one two years younger than me okay other okay the other family okay yeah he spent a lot more time with them though than he did with um with us so they they got a full i don't know i'm a little grateful for that honestly because i it might have been too much for me to have his energy you know so um but they they got a lot of him which was great after you found out though when you were 16 first of all you said it was a friend of the family told you who he was yeah what happened there like did was that just he came over and said it's time to know?

That was a girl in school was, you know, with a rumor going around that she didn't even come from my school. She came from a different school. But she was at the school that day. And there was this rumor going around that, you know, I was the mafia princess and my father was a gangster. And he was this and the head of the Genovese crime family. I was having a really shitty day. Normally I can let shit roll, you know. I was having a really shitty day and I was kind of tired of her talking about my family because this wasn't the first time. This was like the 50th time. And I had a really good friend that hung with me and I said

to her, and she said to me, she's here and, you know, she's talking shit again. And I says a really good friend that hung with me, and I said to her, and she said to me, she's here, and she's talking shit again. And I said, you know what we're going to do? I said, follow me to the bathroom, because I knew at a certain time of the day, her and these two girls were going to the bathroom. I said, you stay outside. I'm going to go in. She says, you sure you don't want me to come like this three of them? Don't worry about it. I said, I'm going in. All right. She stood outside. I went in. The first two girls,

her friends, come out of the stalls. And they looked at me and they backed up. I said, get the fuck out of here. Like that. I love it. So they left. She comes out. And you could see she's got like a little fear in her, right? And then she got cocky. Like if she would have like talked to me and I would have explained myself and blah, blah, blah, she got cocky. How'd she get cocky? Like, well, you know it's true. You know that, you know, this is, you are the, not even a whole sentence got out of her mouth. And I just took my hand, I grabbed the back of her hair because you know that in the 80s big hair

I just wrapped it and I just brought her head to the sink busted her up wide open she she fell on the floor and I just looked at her and I said don't ever let me hear you talk about my family again

and I stepped on it. Oh. Like my father did. And then it came back. Yeah, I was going to say. Like that image. You had that forever. For a second.

Came back, but it left again. I still didn't remember what happened. It's like a traumatic, like, you know, when you hear the screen go. Yep. Like that. Exactly. I walked out of there. And, you know, when you got the adrenaline going, you're shaking, right?

Oh, yeah. I hear down the hall, I hear Gigante in the office. In the office. I sat there. I had my friend with me. She comes into the office bloody, the whole thing. What happened? My friend goes, I don't know.

I didn't see anything. On brand. On brand. Yeah, perfect. Principal goes, what happened? She must have fell. I have no idea. She must have fell.

So I thought for sure. I thought I'm getting suspended, blah, blah, blah. Every day passed, nothing. I get home, the phone call. What happened with this girl? So I told my family. Good, she deserved it. Good, she deserved it.

Great job, honey. I got to tell you, I felt so bad after that. Yeah. I really did. I'm not, the only other time that happened, I was in fourth grade. The only other time. It was a boy. Well, I think it's also like, only other time. It was a boy.

Well, I think it's also like, again, you're spending your whole life wondering what it is. You're afraid of your dad. It's like there's a beast living inside you with that, and someone crosses the line. I was a big jokester in school. They knew I was the class clown. But that was my way of dealing with shit. Yes. 100%. It was my way.

So it was that or it was the bathroom what are we picking yeah what road are we going down exactly you know so uh yeah it that was the second time the first time i was in fourth grade and of course you know boys are hard man they just actually girls are harder i'm going to tell you right now. I agree. Girls are harder. They're bitchier. But this kid made fun of me months and months and months and months. I let it go. And then the beast unleashed. Put him in his place. I just, it was snowing out.

There was ice on the floor. He was behind me cackling and telling his friends, you know, she looks like a boy. She walks like a boy. She wears boys clothes. I was a tomboy. That was it. You know, you couldn't put a dress on me at a year old. Nevermind then.

He passed, like he walked, right? Passed me. And he had no idea. I took the back of his jacket and I just dropped him to the floor. So you got a signature move. I guess. You know, I'm not. I'm not sure.

I'm not even thinking though. You got to understand. I'm not putting my back to Rita. I'm not even thinking. Your back to Rita. I just dragged it. And there was ice. So he went down.

Oh, yeah. And I started wailing. I just started punching the shit out of him. No, he wasn't making fun of you about mafia related stuff. No, just me. Just you. All me. Yeah. And fun of you about mafia-related stuff. No, just me. Just you. All me. Yeah.

And I said I had enough in my head. I said, I'm going to kill this motherfucker. Dragged him to the floor, just went loose. And then they pulled me off of him. And I was smiling, the grin, because I thought to myself, ain't nobody going to fuck with me again. That's it. I'm always going to say a word.

I'm 5'1", right? I was probably 5'1 in fourth grade. I wasn't going to say it. And then that was it. Oh, you just didn't grow anymore. That was it. You got to that point and that was enough. That was it.

Wow. So I didn't get in trouble for that either. Then they wanted to send me to somebody to talk to, which that was the lady who had the accent. And I said, I'm not going back there. My mother said, you don't have to go back there. And nobody screwed with me after that till this, till this girl in high school. But when, when you did find out when you were 17 after that event, that's where we started

with this. How did the conversation initiate from then? And who was the person who told you officially that's true? So what happened was I went from that time at school. I got on my bike, my bicycle. I wasn't driving yet. I got on my bicycle, went right to the friend's house who was very close to our family.

Hysterical crying, blood everywhere. She thought somebody hurt me. So I walked in huffing and puffing. I says, I got to know. You got to tell me what's going on here. She goes, what do you mean? You don't know? I go, know what?

So she sat me down. She says, okay. She goes, I'm going to explain a few things to you. She called my down. She says, okay. She goes, I'm going to explain a few things to you. She called my mother. She says, Rita's here. This is what happened. She explained that that's who my father was. And as I'm sitting there, I'm not even looking at her.

I'm like this, stunned, right? And all of a sudden, like pieces of the puzzle started. Oh, yeah. Boom, boom, boom, boom. Oh, my God. That's why. And that's why. And that's why.

And I'm like, my first reaction was, oh, this is fucking cool. Nobody going to fuck with us, right? I'm thinking to myself, he is who he is. The second reaction was, after thinking about it, was, oh, my God, they can come after us, like either another family or the FBI, I'm thinking, like at any moment in time, right? And so started having a lot of, a lot of emotion. So I go home after this whole conversation.

My mother looks at me as i walk in she goes are you okay i says i gotta go to bed i gotta go to sleep couldn't handle anymore oh fucking overload all right she says go to sleep we'll talk in the morning you want to know what that conversation was this is what it is you don't ever tell anybody keep your mouth shut keep your mouth shut you got a good life and this is what it is. You don't ever tell anybody. Keep your mouth shut. Keep your mouth shut. You got a good life. And this is what people, he's paranoid schizophrenic. That's all anybody needs to know. Because that's the cover.

That's the cover. Now I'm like paranoid schizophrenic. All right, can we get it? Like now I'm petrified. You know, the OCD kicks in immediately. I start walking shit up. You're like, is this genetic? Am I going to be in trouble?

Yeah. Ugh. Forget it. So. Well, when you had that conversation, though, so just for background for people so they understand. Because we mentioned how your dad had this kind of like genius 30-year run where he would like fake that he was sick and make people use like a C with their hands or point to the chin to refer to him. They weren't even allowed to say his name in case there were mics from you fellas somewhere. But you know, in the eighties, he had fat Tony Salerno as the front boss.

He sat in some social club up in, I think it was in Harlem. Maybe I'm wrong about that somewhere. Maybe the Bronx, Bronx or Harlem. But anyway, so he wasn't the real boss. Was, was that full detail explained to you in that conversation too? Or was it just like, hey, he's the boss. That's all that matters. He's it. Okay.

Then I went to talk to my sisters after that because they know I know. And I said, well, how far does his hand reach? And they said, you have no idea how far. And just let it be. said all right so now everybody now everybody like they all knew right now i'm the last to know okay so now i'm covering like everybody else like you know his his doctor would come in to my grandmother's apartment and do an evaluation. So he got it. Would he talk to him real slow? Like, hi, Vinny.

No, no. No, he talked to him like normal. But you got to understand now, Bugs Bunny is on in the background. So he starts to mimic fucking cartoons. And now that I know what he's doing, I want to run under the table because I'm laughing. And my grandmother's in the background in italian going be a medicine like get him his medicine he's crazy and i'm looking at this whole thing going oh god get me the fuck out of here like this is so nuts i can't get get him a carrot all right all right what what i want i i didn't want to stop you going through all this.

No, listen. I can go and go. This is amazing. Thank God you stopped me. Like getting the background just of you as a person. Forget your dad. Your dad's like a background player right there. But now I want to bring in your dad too for people to get the story because now we know when you found out.

We'll get to after that. And this is where Jim will be good too because he'll be able to kind of give some sort of – I'd love to hear Jim's story. Yeah, some play-by-play of what the FBI, Kallstrom, and all those guys were doing. Yeah. But we've covered bits and pieces of your dad. But if we could just start at the beginning of who your dad's parents were. Absolutely.

Where he was born, when he got into this life, all that stuff, and we'll go from there. So my grandma, Yolanda, and my grandpa, Sal, were born in Italy, in Santa Lucia. And they met – my grandmother was wealthy in Italy. They had servants. They were geared towards education. So she was extremely well-educated. She was following in her father's footsteps to become a pharmacist, potentially a doctor.

Wow. Okay. So education was very important for her. She was well-versed in so many things. What happened was my grandfather witnessed something of the black hand now the black hand in italy is the mafia yes and then in in that um in that day and age they didn't just go after the person to kill them for maybe they went after the whole family yeah godfather Part Two opening scene. He does a good job explaining that. So he got approached and said,

they approached him and says, we want you to testify, the police and all of that. Then he got approached by the Black Can and said, if you testify, we're gonna kill you and your whole family. So what he did was he was a pharmacist. He overdosed on, it's called st he did was, he was a pharmacist. He overdosed on, it's called strychnine, which was poison. And he killed himself.

Unbeknownst to my grandmother, was going to come here and have what she had with my father and everything. It really began there. Okay, so then it comes full circle, right? So she had met my grandfather because he was not completely well, so he would be in and out of the pharmacy. They end up falling in love. He wants to take her back to the States because his family is in the States.

And what do they, you know, back then they all think, okay, I'm married. I got to follow my husband, right? The mother begged her to stay. My great-grandmother was a, what do you call them? She was, she probably birthed half of Naples. Oh, like a midwife? She was a midwife. Oh, okay.

She birthed half of Naples. And she didn't want my grandmother to go. She would actually send my grandmother money for a one-way ticket to come back. So story goes along. The first Vincent is born. This was not my father. Okay, first Vincent.

First Vincent. They take a trip to Florida. I'm sorry. They take a trip to Italy. And in that trip, he ends up passing. So he pulls a pot of boiling hot water on top of himself. Oh, my God. They can't save him.

He passes. My grandmother gets blamed for my grandfather, which was horrible. They come back to the United States. She gets pregnant again. Now it's my father. So this is Vincent number two. And he had an older brother, Mario, too, right? Mario, yep.

Okay. Yep. Wow. So it was Mario. Now I can't remember the lineup, but yes. Can we Google that, Alessi? Mario and Vincent, just so we have it? Yeah.

Okay. So there was a Vincent before. There was a Vincent before. Wow. Yeah. So he grows up. At the age of 14, he's already running little crap things. And, you know, by the time he reached 15, 16, he starts to become a little bit known in the neighborhood as a good kid.

You know, we're poor. Like, you know, my grandfather was a jeweler. My grandmother was seamstress. They were working people, right? So Vito Genovese hears about him, pulls him aside, takes a liking to him, pulls him in, gets him to start boxing at the age of 16. Oh, he got him boxing? Yeah. He was able to get – because you weren't allowed to box at the age of 16.

He got him into boxing. Even back then they had rules like that? Yeah. Wow. And he loved it. My father allowed to box at the age of 16. He got him into boxing. Even back then they had rules like that. Wow. So, and he loved it. My father loved to box. And for people out there, Vito Genovese was effectively the boss of all bosses at the time. Yes. Yeah.

But crazy. Coming up on being the boss of all bosses. I remember. Coming up on being the boss of all bosses. Yeah. Well, he would have gotten your dad boxing in what, the early 40s? Something like that? He was 16 and he was born in 28.

Yeah. So like 40. So Vito's, yeah, Lucky had just been pinched. Lucky's being transported to Italy in 46. So Vito, yeah, Vito's in charge of that family. Yeah. Wow. So, yeah.

So, again, Vito loves him, takes a liking to him, all of that. Eventually he starts to be his driver By the way, he drives terrible I drove with him once I almost had a heart attack Never got a license It's not like he knew how to fucking drive You know what I mean?

Bet you he had a PBA card I'll bet he did I don't even know if he needed that Maybe he tipped him 50 At the police and that was the end of it. Got to get that Bob Servino PBA. Got to get it. Gets you out of everything. So the more and more dad started to do things with Vito,

the more Vito trusted him, took him under his wing, taught him everything, the more my dad started to see the money and the power and all of that. You know what happens to the ego? Oh, yeah. The ego takes over. Before you knew it, him and Vito were in jail together at one point. And he groomed him enough so that when my dad came out of jail, he would know he was working his way. Well, there was something big before that, though, too, right?

Because he went into jail with Vito in 59, I want to say. 59, I believe. Right. But 57. Oh, that was for Costello. Yeah. How did he get put on? And can you explain what that was?

Like, how did he even, do you know how he got put on that? Was that just because he was Vito's driver? He's like, oh, you're going to do this? That was my dad trusting him enough and wanting to move him up. So he had to do something like that in order to get to there and then be made. So they wanted at the time Frank Costello. So actually, I'm sorry. Frank Costello was still the boss of that family.

He took over from Lucky. He was the boss of all bosses. And your father attempted in public to kill him. And the bullet went, I believe, like around his skull. Like it went up the temple and around the skull. So it was just an injury. I believe it hit his hat and then it like scathed him, but it wasn't. It didn't kill him.

Didn't kill him. But your dad gets arrested, put on trial. Costello comes in and goes, I couldn't see him. Yep. And Costello retires. This is what's amazing see him. Yep. And they – That was it. And Costello retires. This is what's amazing to me. Yeah. And my dad lives.

And your dad and Costello, like, outside the courtroom, your dad's like, thanks, Frank, or something like that. And there was, like, an understanding there, and they went – like, that's unheard of in the mafia. Like, even if he goes in there because they don't testify against each other and says, didn't see him your dad's dead 10 days later but he wasn't and then jenna like that's crazy that he lived through that yeah and by all means and purposes he's shutting off yeah but he was like a son to veto so um yeah and that's how he came up through the ranks, strategically, methodically. The only, I have to tell you, as much as Vito taught him, he truly was different than Vito in a lot of ways. Vito was very, very, if he even thought somebody was coming for him, they were gone. And my father wasn't like that.

He was very fair. There were rules, and it was old school school and that was it, you know? And even then he was, he had to make sure before he did anything. Yes. There were some guys that actually did turn against the family later that he didn't have killed because he was giving them leeway and assuming they didn't do it. I guess that's kind of true. One that everybody was telling him, get rid of him.

And he didn't. Pete Savino was. Yeah. Wow. So he ends up, well, you were saying he ends up in prison, though, from like 59 to 66 with Vito. Yeah. And at that point, I think Vito, he died in prison, right? Yep.

Vito died in prison. Yeah. So what was, can we look up what he was arrested for? He was arrested in Appalachian, but what was he, what was he hit for? Type in Vito Genovese, G-E-N. Yep. That's it. And then just on his Wikipedia, go down to when he got put in prison.

I just want to know what it was for. There it is. Meeting, Appalachian meeting in prison. Where is it? No, go down. Go down. That was just a quick it is. Appalachian meeting in prison. Where is it? No, go down. That was just a quick preview. Go down. Pursuit of power.

Yeah, yeah. Yep, that's it. Okay, on 58, testified under subpoena. All right, go down, Alessi. 57, the Appalachian meeting. That's where all these mobsters were caught meeting together up in Upper State New York. And so they knew something was up. He was indicted on charges of conspiring to import and sell narcotics. That's what I thought it was. caught meeting together up in upper state new york and so they knew something was up he was

indicted on charges of conspiring to import and sell narcotics that's what i thought it was he was convicted of conspiracy to violate federal narcotics laws and was sentenced to 15 years of prison okay and i believe your father was sent was sentenced for heroin so a similar type thing right see that's something veto would do but my father would not. Drugs? Yeah. He didn't like them? Nope. Why?

Did you ever get to talk to him about that at all? No, I just know from family. Okay. What was his logic there? Kids. Yeah. Kids. He didn't want kids to be affected by kids in the street.

He wasn't a fan of that. The rest of it it there was no you know there was he was he had all the rest of it but that wasn't his thing yeah i had salvatore banano in for episode 130 he's the grandson of joe banano his father was bill banano who was the underboss of the family and he you know there's a lot of arguments about this stuff online like oh come on they all knew or whatever but there were different factions that wanted it and those that didn't and he's very steadfast because you know he spent years with his grandfather's grandfather was alive till like 02 that his grandfather that was the thing he wanted nothing to do with and if you look at like the bananas war and everything, the factions there

were, it was the people who were selling heroin and then the other side who was saying, we're not doing it. So I guess there was, you know, there was some, not all that is lore when it comes to that one in particular. Absolutely. Yeah. So he, he didn't like that at all. So, but how did he feel about his mentor being so deep in it i think he just respected him because he took him in and you know uh gave him what he had and also spared his life yeah spared his life so he wasn't gonna wasn't gonna go against him or say anything bad but he just didn't run things the way he did so he comes out of prison though in the mid-60s shortly after you were born again you don't know what's going on with all this stuff but at some point there and

i want to say the 70s he becomes the actual boss right um or early 80s early i want to say it's early 80s if i remember correctly yeah it's so far so far away from me, so it's hard to... Yeah, and then I realize, because I'm 16, 17. Do you know the origins of... Between client meetings, managing your business, and everyday tasks, who has time to worry about website hosting? With Kinsta's managed WordPress hosting, you don't have to. They handle the

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What gave him the idea to do the faking schizophrenia thing? Did you ever get any inside info on that from family members? No, I think that that's what was him. He just thought of it and started doing it and they went with it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's so much work. Oh, my God.

For everyone else, too. I can't. You know, I had to step in his shoes at one point just to understand where he was coming from you know what i mean like that's a lot it's definitely a lot because you can't miss a beat you know i mean thinking about undercover work very similar and people make mistakes all the time sure and whether it's just answering to their own name you know so i mean to have that level where you look at any information, you talk to agents who worked those cases back in those days, the guy never missed a beat. He just never did.

He never tripped up. Right. And that's how many people really knew that were in the life. And they all respected that as well. Yeah. Because they knew. Yeah. They knew the pinky ring would

you know that was your that was your identifier of him sure so as you move forward in life it's kind of like it's amazing to me your your whole sense of people's emotions probably from that that's when you actually discovered but didn't discover till years later yeah i think that's when it came to you right it probably came what I'm thinking about the guy reaching out to you who was the victim's son, to me, it's kind of like that's a God wink. Yeah. That you need to be with that person. Yeah.

I know. I'm thinking about it every day. It's almost your responsibility from a higher power saying, hey, you got to help this guy heal, whatever you can tell him, as hard as that is. And I think he's helping you too. Oh, big time. I think it's a mutual beneficiary. Big time.

Oh, I was grateful when I heard he didn't die because it would have been one more thing that dad had karma for. Yeah. And so I'm grateful, so grateful for that. Had you ever noticed before you found out, you know, weird cars parked on your street? Not the guys who would come in and do Christmas with you, you know, your dad's guys, but like guys like him. Even like bumper locks. Like did you ever remember being obviously, you know, not covertly, but overtly followed? You yourself or when you were with him, could you sense? I could sense energy.

People around. Yes. I can sense that. I just didn't know who. Yeah. I had this feeling like they were further off than, like they weren't on top of us because then I would have really,

but I didn't know what to make of it. It was like, oh, what do I, like, and there was only one time, I believe, or twice that there was a car in Jersey, if I remember correctly, that was there, that I'm like, what is this? Why are we, you know? But probably not as much as my brothers would have witnessed or, you know, my sisters would have witnessed or something like that, you know.

Because, I mean, there's two ways we conduct surveillance. One, to get you to approach us. Yeah. And then the second one is, hey, we need to be as covert as possible because what we're looking to do doesn't make sense to have let out at this point because we're trying to maybe build evidence for a wiretap right right but i mean he even had that down where the phone was off the hook there's no way you could put a bug in the house because you wouldn't hear anything you hear bugs bunny and italian music yep so it all kind of played in his you know his his ability to get into character. Right. Yeah. Just he stayed with that even in those motions.

So probably I'm thinking back as a young agent, be like, why the hell are we on this? I'm listening to Bugs Bunny all day. Right. The dude's whacked. Get lost. He's not making any decisions. Now, Jim, you came into the FBI in 96?

97. 97. Okay. Yeah. So you're coming in. This is right when he's now, we'll get there, but this is when he's actually going to trial later. Yes. Spoiler alert. 97. Okay. Yeah. So you're coming in. This is right when he's now, we'll get there, but this is when he's actually going to trial. Yeah. Yes.

Spoiler alert. Yes. But so you weren't involved in necessarily his. A lot of things that branched out from his as a young agent, Tino Famara, his whole very similar, like I think he learned from your dad, learned to be that person, wave at everybody like he was a little off, which caused issues with younger agents. Oh, shit, he knows me. He just waves at everybody, hoping that you'll have the reaction that we've had some young agents have. Like, oh, shit, and then that wires over. Now you move on.

Like, okay, he's like, oh, I know it's that pay phone and that pay phone. Thank you so much gotcha smart how accurate was to use a pop culture reference here how accurate was the way the fbi did oc surveillance portrayed and say the sopranos oh that's i love those shows because it's always the the fbi guy is always a boob. It's like, ah, you know. So true. Don't get me wrong. We have plenty of boobs that still are there, and you know who you are. So you're the ones that keep writing hate mail to us.

I told you. I told you, Rita. No, it's good. It's kind of like Julian and I have talked from minute one, the two-thirds rule, right? Two people do the work. One person sits around like a boo, puts boxes together, gets lemon ice. Right.

You know, and we know who those people are. So if you got the lemon ice eater, you're lucky. And guys like your dad, guys like in the life knew who was who. Better than we did. Their charts were probably a lot better than our charts. You know? So like, oh, we got the, like I can remember. Who's burning the charts when they're done with them.

Sometimes wrongly. Yeah, sometimes wrongly. And that's when it's even funnier. We had a big public corruption case. Very similar mob connections to the public corruption. Obviously politicians and mobsters are in bed together at points because they mutually advantage for each other. And we had one guy talking about, oh my God, let's hope we don't get so-and-so because he's the best. And all of us are looking at each other like, oh my God, they think he's good. This is fantastic. Let's keep putting him out there.

And the dude had no, why am I going out there? Just go sit, sit. Here's their bumper. You sit right behind it. Right. And talk to the first person that comes out of the house. He was so stupid that he actually helped move the case along. Oh, that's incredible. Oh, my God.

So that kind of stuff is funny, you know, funny stuff. Which I'm sure your dad, I'm sure they had laughs over that. Oh, I'm sure they were. Like, holy cow, we got Joe Johnson on. This is fantastic. Yeah, yeah. Dumb as a box of rocks, you know. But for these cases at the time that Reed's father was being investigated, this would have been like Jules Bonavolanta and Carlstrom.

All the legendary, you know, FBI, New York, legendary FBI agents. Yeah, Carlstrom, Bonavolanta. Louis Freeh, technically. Sherpa, the one guy. Shrillo. Shrillo, Louis. Yeah, yeahstrom, Bonavolante. Louis Freeh, technically. Sherpa, the one guy. Shrillo. Shrillo, Louis. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All the guys that were well-known.

Right. They knew each other. Everybody knew each other. Some of them grew up in the same neighborhood. Some of them, I mean, literally loved him. They would, you know, they tipped their hat to him even when all was said and done. They just...

Absolutely. He just was a very done, they just. Absolutely. He just was a very charismatic energy. Yeah. My dad. You wanted to be around him for whatever reason was your own. Right. And it's similar to, I talk about the guy down in Belmar, down Jersey Shore. DeVito?

Who is a, it's, yeah, but I mean, no, another guy, but has a nickname too. But he's a scratch handicap golfer. so he's at a lot of the clubs. Oh, that's not DeVito. No. And this guy's at a lot of the clubs. And when he found out that I was applying for a country club in Monmouth County, he called me and said, is this because of me? I go, no, I just love the course.

He's like, holy shit, you scared the shit out of me you're trying to i go i go no i just love the course he's like holy shit you scared the shit out of me you know okay hey and then he's like hey i gotta force him on saturday you want to play i played i played he's the julian he's the one i talk about that his house in belmar i'm probably letting this out but everybody knows now but it was like run down on the outside okay piece of shit right and we used to go arrest him probably three times a month Just just to talk to him because he said please just put the cuffs on yeah, you know Because I can't take a chance so he would come out we'd have a cuff himself and the whole deal never let us in the front Door right never. Yeah, so one day one of my one of my buddies just like you know what?

Let's just push through the front door see the house inside Spectacular, I'm sure so he's like shit now, you know what I'm like, you know what? Let's just push through the front door. It's like, the house inside, spectacular. It's beautiful. I'm sure. So he's like, oh, shit. Now you know what I'm doing. We're like, dude, we've known what you're doing for the last 20 years. Right, right. The fact that you're still playing golf on Saturdays is pretty good, right?

He's like, very good. Yeah, yeah. That's like. But I mean, that was the charisma that surrounded. Yes. That world made it, you know, celebrity-like. It was celebrity-like.

Exactly. But mostly the neighborhood loved him because he took care of them. Yep. That, you know, if someone couldn't pay their rent, he paid it. Nobody went without food. If they had kids and they needed money, he gave it. Now, there are a lot of bosses that weren't like that.

I couldn't speak to that but i know he was he was extremely generous he had an affinity for the elderly um and he lived in a four-room apartment his whole i mean where did he go he went he went on one vacation with my mother for the honeymoon to florida that was it he flew more hated to fly by the way i don't know if anybody knows that hated it hated to fly he flew more because he had to go to different jails you know they transported they transported him all over the place one at one point he was in the same facility as john gatti and they were like fuck are we doing he was the he was way out in colorado in florence yeah for a minute yeah wait

they put gatti in florence, that's where he died, dude. Yeah. Was this in Florence? That whole thing was, the way he died was sad. Yeah. Very sad. The terrorists and all the, and him. Yeah, it's not great.

And Robert Hansen. Yeah. The FBI traitor. But your dad and Gotti didn't get along. No. Your dad tried to have Gotti off in 86. Yeah. Didn't love Gotti at all.

Well, he was, he portrayed himself in $3,000 suits. Attention. You know, everybody says that attention, right? He's walking around in a bathrobe and slippers. That's not attention? Yeah, but it's the wrong kind.

I understand. The complete other side. He's trying to kind. I understand. The complete other side. He's trying to act. Fair point, but. Short's flip-flop would have been just fine. But that's what it was. And Gotti goaded them. Yes, he did.

It was like, come and get me because you can't. You're not going to be able to. He screwed up another one. That's what he would do. How's it feel to fuck up again? Talk about ego. Oh, my God. Yes.

But nonetheless, he 24 23 hours in darkness and one hour i think they let him that's that was it you know that Florence is brutal so much more than i don't know i just i just say to myself god they they need to really get the system right but they're not gonna no they're not gonna it's's just sad. Yeah, I think there's a way to do it. Obviously, people break laws. There's got to be punishments for that. But our system, removing even the mafia, ended up or something right now. Just like in general, I always joke like it's the Department of Corrections, but they don't do a lot of correcting.

No. Bureau of Prisons. They don't want to know. There's no incentive. They don't want to know. I'm not saying send people to a Marriott courtyard. That's not what I'm saying. No. But of Prisons. They don't want to know. There's no incentive. They don't want to know. I'm not saying send people to a Marriott courtyard. That's not what I'm saying. No, no.

But like, you know, I get what you're saying about it's some of it's up to you. Well, I think this. When he was away, it doesn't matter where you go, how nice it is, whatever. You're missing seven Christmases, seven Thanksgivings, seven birthdays of your kids, you know, seven Easters. It doesn't matter. Right. 100%.

You know, and like you talked, we do, you know, with Everyday Spy, we do some work where we kind of help people that are now going in, kind of give them skills. Oh, shit. Like a mindset. You're consulting people going into prison. Yeah, like a mindset. Cox does it with us, you know. I mean, it's great because it gives them a level of comfort. But at the end of the day, you're missing five birthdays of your children.

That's right. So it could all – yes, we could get you prepared, you know, how to do this. And they love it because it's helpful and it feels good for us to do it. But at the end of the day, you're going to jail. You're going away. Yeah. Somebody is locking your cell or your door or your camp barrack and you

can't leave. I'll tell you, when the decision came down for him, we were dumbfounded. We were like, 12 years. How did that even happen? 12 years. That was... There's no system to it.

We were blown away. And then it was, alright, let's start the appeal. There's no system to it. I was, we were blown away. And, you know, then it was, all right, let's start the appeal. Let's do this. Let's do that. Did he, was he allowed, was he allowed to stay out while on appeal or he was locked up when they appealed? No, he was locked up. He was locked up. So even that.

Yeah. But there was a seven year, I think there was like a seven year court battle ahead of the trial, right, where they were trying to decide if he was fit or not. He had a bracelet on. So he was on home arrest for that period. Yep. Then he had the open heart surgery. So that was – And so he had to recover from that.

But they were fighting over whether or not he was fit to sit at trial. So they had all kinds of court psychiatrists, appointed psychiatrists coming to check him out and try to trip him up or whatever. And he had to be in court every day for that. Yeah. So he really – we tell a story. I don't know the name. Anthony Spolaro, who was a small-timer, but he was down in South Jersey. Okay.

And Anthony had that same – he played that same role, but he wasn't great at it. Right. And so what happened – thank God for his lawyer, Michael Critchley, who got up and actually – Oh, this is Critchley guy? Actually cross-examined the head doc at Fort Devens, which is a – it's a hospital prison. And people tell me I'm wrong on this, but I remember because it was my case. At the end, the doc was like, I'm not sure if I'm a doctor. That's how much he crossed the line.

Holy shit. And they just were like, the judge was like, listen, you said that. I have no faith that we can take care of this man. Right. And they literally got him off. And the guy was doing a fake Parkinson's. Wow. And he just was like okay and

he just walked out and tom judge and thompson thompson was like holy shit right yeah we just got taken yeah you know and that was it just walks out like he looks at me he looks at me he's like thank you shook my hand thank you so much for being professional like professional my career just ended it's like, son of a bitch. It's like spacing at the end of unusual, unusual suspects. Yes. He's like, hey, how you doing? How are you?

It was the same kind of feel for me. Oh, my God. So, I mean, I think about, you know, I mean, I think it's just, it's just, I love, I love your story. I love your story. I love what you're talking about. Thank you. I just, you know, I can't imagine what your sense of where you were at all the time was until you finally said, okay, this is it. We

got to accept it and do the best we can to make better, you know, and write your book is therapeutic and ministry to others, but to you mostly, you know, your trials have led to a story. It's extremely cathartic. And have the amount of people reach out to me and tell me how much it helped them. And they're not people of, some of them are, but majority are not people that have family members that are in the mob. But there's an aspect of the story that has helped them. Can you give an example of that? Yeah, the fact that I came out twice and finally lived my

life um the second time i came out by the way i was 24 and i told my mother and i said i'm done i said tell him don't tell him i'm not saying a word she goes i'm not saying a word so it was even though we knew everybody knows their kids yeah he didn't you know say anything after that um so where was i you were taught you were talking about an example of how it helps other people who don't know so people who are gay people who are oppressed or suppressed being a woman in a family and that kind of a family that's powerful that's powerful um because i'm spiritual and I just took from the Catholic religion what I felt connected to was maybe three things. And then the rest I was like, I meet on Friday, so I don't really give a fuck. I never got that either.

I can't. My mother was crazy about it. I just, I think to myself, the shit that they make up and believe. You got to get those gains. Come on. up and believe. You got to get those gains. Come on. I'm sorry. You got to. I'm not sacrificing gains for Jesus.

Yeah. I'm sorry. Gains for Jesus, my next book. Yeah. Me and Alessi. Being spiritual now, so that has helped a lot of people. Of course. Being honest, being able to speak your truth in that kind of situation.

You don't have to have a father like mine. You can have a different type of father. But, you know, it's all. Amazing. Amazing. Just, it touched. Anybody loves something that you can take personal. Now, look, I had a little bit of an advantage because of who he was.

And so he was so, you know, he was notorious. Right. But I really took the story that was me and I humanized it and I, and I, you know, I made it universal. It was extremely personal. Right. But I said, I want to help people. So I have to make it universal and have everybody be able to connect to it not just you know so i have you know i have seen people in that life that were in the life that were not older and you know come up hug me kiss me you know they initially they weren't sure about the book because they thought it was a tell-all and i'm looking at them like what how could i do it yeah you know what i mean you don't know what he's telling me intricately right i know enough i don't need to know anymore and you wrote it after he was passed too right yeah um i wrote it i was writing it while he was in jail, but it did not come out till after he passed. And I waited

years, like 2005, he passed. It didn't come out till 2012. Yeah. So I don't know what the issue is. My mother, I wanted her to grieve. I didn't want to bring any more, you know, craziness to her or anything like that. And she, it's so funny when the book came out she says to me re should i read it and i said ma you know everything yeah she says you really don't need to read it you know because i didn't want to upset her in any way but there were some things that i needed to say that might have upset her you know not necessarily about him either you know like about her. Like not being heard.

You know, like where were you? Why didn't you protect me? And yet she did in a lot of ways. She really did in a lot of ways. But, you know, like in part in one of the stories in my book, in fourth grade I'm walking home like I do every day, and the crossing guard was an old Italian dirty man. And, you know, he decided he was going to put his hands on my chest.

Which what did I have in fourth grade, but you know, and he was talking in Italian and kind of like rubbing me and I went home hysterical crying. I bet. Hysterical. I was telling my mother what happened. And then it was the response i got was okay listen you're not going to walk to school anymore we're going to drive you which i liked walking you know um and we're not going to tell your father because yeah you know she was afraid of what was going to happen to this old man and it flipped me out i was like what do you mean he you know he hurt me. Like he should be punished. Not thinking that he was gonna get killed

because I'm in fourth grade, right? I thought my dad would just give him a beating or something. Something, you know? But mom was afraid of that. Sure. And so we never told my father. So I felt like my voice was squashed. Well, once again,

that's something where control is being taken away from you. Absolutely. Like in the worst way. Yeah. That explains a lot. Yeah, if you read the book, it'll explain a ton of things. And we'll have the link to your book down in the description, by the way. Yeah, great.

So people can check it out. What's the name of the book? So it's The Godfather's Daughter, but the subtitle is An Unlikely Story of Love, Healing, and Redemption. Love it. Because that's what it became for me. It was like I needed to forgive all of it in order to move on and heal and help others. Did you have, like, after you found out when you were 16, you know, obviously sometimes he'd be like, come on, we're going for a walk. And you'd have to hold him up like you were saying and stuff like that. And he knew you knew.

Did you ever have? Never. No. You don't even have to ask. Did we ever have a conversation about it? Yeah. Yeah, no. It's just, you know, when you look at somebody and they know you know and you know they know and that's it.

And it was just keep going. What's that like to carry that? It's like the 500-pound elephant sitting on your chest. Forget being in the room. It's sitting on both of your chests. Yeah. You know, after going through a lot of emotional healing and getting rid of a lot of baggage from this,

I used to put myself in his shoes a lot and think to myself, oh my God, who would want to live within a four block radius their whole life and not go anywhere or enjoy anything? Especially with family, very few things he enjoyed. He came out of character very few times, but when he did, it was so beautiful. He had the best smile. He could light up a room. You know what I mean? These are the things. And I think to myself, God, I wouldn't want to look over my shoulder for even 10 minutes,

let alone what he did every day. So I started to humanize him. And that's how I was able to forgive him and my mother and everybody. Listen, I said to her, why did you stay? Like, what was it? And she said to me, it was, they grew up together. They were babies. My grandmothers knew each other.

They were playing on the roof together at a year old. She said to me, Ray, I never forgot the innocence. Wow. Whoa. He was so innocent as a young kid. That's the word she's using. Yes. Amazing.

He was. He was a good kid. You know, heavy set, always heavy set kid he was that's the word she's using yes and he was he was a good kid you know heavy set always heavy set when he was young um they had their first kiss he was they were 12 wow you know what i mean it's all she knew it's all she knew and that's what she kept how so obviously it's a lifelong relationship very very complicated one. Yeah. But, you know, he dies. She's obviously grieving about it and everything. But, you know, how long did she know, even if she didn't know who or what or where, how long? After she got married, she knew.

But beforehand, she didn't know. And she didn't know everything, right? What did she think of that? He didn't tell her. But once she did know everything, did that change how she viewed your father? Was that after he died? No, no. She never changed her. Never. Was it after he died that she found out? No, no. She knew. She knew before he died, but she knew, she only knew what she could handle in her head.

She never talked about it, not even to her own family. And she was able to help her family with him. So she knew, but it was never spoken about in that way. She was more afraid for his soul, like she was afraid for my soul because I was gay, than anything. She wanted to make sure he would not go to hell. How did she express that to him, if she ever did to him or to you? How did that come across? Was religion a portion of her life? Well, listen, the crazy part is when my brothers and sisters were born

and they were old enough to recite the rosary they would sit as a family okay and say the rosary every day okay now unbeknownst to anybody all the initials in our name spell out rosary okay rosanne olympia sal andrew rita so my father goes the complex family where am i in all of this so my father goes this is a complex family where am I in all of this so my mother goes you're the V for the five decades of the rosary it's almost like he had to be a part of it

right that was the part of him that you just had to love it was almost childlike how the hell did I not get in there and he was very very much like that with my grandmother. He loved her, would do anything for her. He was somewhat jealous of anybody else who came around,

like the other brothers, when she would pay attention to them. So he was like a regular guy, like everybody else. It's just he wielded, you wielded a certain power about him, and he was able to keep his focus, and he could have been the CEO of any company in this world, but he chose that one. Now he would say. Ain't that interesting?

Yeah, he would say to me, what's the difference between me and the government? And I would say, what do you mean? And he goes, doing exactly what they're doing. They're just not getting a piece of anything that I do. And he pays his taxes, right? So he would speak in high-level terms with you, like... I would hear some things that he would be saying,

and I would be like, wow, that's an interesting take on it. Because I often wonder, and people have asked me, like, if your dad was president, how do you think this country would be run? And I said, exactly. He would take the rules of that life and he would apply them and nobody would be doing the shit that they're doing. Like, I mean, I don't know what else to say. That's, you know.

I think that's your next book. Yeah. Right? Seriously. Remember that stand-up bit, like, shortly after 9-11, the guy where he's talking about. What's his name? I forget the dude's name.

I know his name. But he's like, listen, they're hunting this fucking Osama guy. If we had two Italians from Jersey, let me tell you how this would go. Hey, Osama! Knock, knock, knock. Hey, take a seat on that rock, will you? And then boom! And I think about that sometimes and I'm like, is he wrong?

It's about right. Is he wrong? It's about right. There's not much difference, according to him, between the government and what he did. He just did it in a – maybe even in a – how do I want to put it? In a way that makes people feel like the right thing got done instead of, at least people know where he stood, whereas they're all hiding, you know, behind each other going, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. You get what I mean.

Yeah. You would know more than me even. I don't think it's like that. Sadly, when you look at the bureaucracy of the government, like all the agencies and everything put together and it just takes a few bad people in certain places to make decisions. Like anything else. Right? Like I don't think the comparison is that far-fetched. And also, I always cite this.

You know, when you go through mafia history, you do see some people who were straight up fucking like gas pipe gas pipe casso and guys like that who enjoyed it right there's a difference with guys like that oh yeah but there is a difference to me when i'm sitting across from a mobster who i know has whacked people in that life versus and i haven't done this but if i were sitting across from someone who killed their wife there is a difference and the difference to me is it's all wrong you can't fucking do that and when the government catches you you get what you get but like they know what life they signed up for they know what it is you all agree it's like this this kind of sadistic game like you agree to be in this life so that's

the problem that's why when people complain about the government the most complaints happen righteously when it's bleeding off into civilians and people who aren't the government and people are getting killed in places that should never be killed because it's like wait a second they're not in your world if some spy kills another spy hey knock yourselves out but like that's that's different right there and by all accounts your dad was very much in his life that's what it was he wasn't whacking you know the guy around the corner for looking at him the wrong way right yeah there's a code of ethics code of ethics i mean that's you know they had a code and he was i mean he was the last of the mohegans to abide by that code yeah you know so that's yeah it did start it's it's nothing like no well god he's the guy that changed it he did yeah right yeah he So that's. Yeah, it did start. It's nothing like.

Well, Gotti's the guy that changed it. He did. Right? Yeah, he did. That's fair to say. Yeah, I would say that's about right. I'm even thinking of the people I was involved with along the way. It just was who could get to the room first.

Yeah. Who could tell me first. Right. And we use that. Yeah. Quite frankly, I'd be like, hey, you know, we've got, you know who we've got in the other rooms, right? Right. Go. And they'd be like, couldn't wait. Yeah. Quite frankly, I'd be like, hey, you know who we've got in the other rooms, right? Right. Go. And they'd be like, couldn't wait.

Even shit that I was like, oh, I didn't know that was you, but thank you. It amazes me to think that some of these people are still walking around. Oh, yeah. That have done what they've done. Because they've just told. Told what they want. Yeah, told everything,'ve just told told what they you know what they want yeah told everything whether it was a lie or was it truth truthful they just laid it out you know but back back then too like when you found out about your dad he's not now but your brother was

in the life with your dad correct not my brothers andrew he wasn't oh no he was never made he was but he was associated at least he knew what he did if my father told him to do something he would do it but he was right you know he was my father would never allow that but your uncle and your cousin were in there like mario was in there his son mario was the only one made okay that was it mario was the only one made uncle ralph no none of the rest when did they they benefit from, you know, but they weren't in. When did they, like, did you, because again, you didn't have Google back then or whatever. Yeah.

And there weren't a fuck ton of books on this or anything. Like, when you found out who your father was, did you have to, like, go to the library and pull out books about what the mafia is? No, once I found out, everything was explained. Okay. But you knew what the five families were before that or had no idea? No, I didn't know who they was. No. No.

Just like I didn't know I had a whole other set of brothers and, you know, brothers and two sisters. I had no idea. It's just so different from today, like how, you know. Oh, yeah. Google away. We can get everything we need. I was Googling.

I was reading about schizophrenia. Never mind. What? Yeah. Never mind that. Or even like social media would show you the whole lineup of who the family was. Right, right. Now you can.

Now you just, I guess, it's law enforcement's greatest tool. Yep. Okay, you idiots. You know, I go on as a different name and say, I want to go buy drugs. And they all come on. Everybody's listening. Hide their friends. Jerkies.

But thank you for doing that. You're definitely not listening because you couldn't understand this. So how long? But you have that first conversation with the family friend after you get in the fight. And then who else? Who are your professors in this course after that? Like just her? Or are other people starting to fight?

Are your siblings starting to fill you in? Well, this is how this works. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, they would fill me in. I got it pretty quickly. I mean, I'm not an idiot, but like I said, all the pieces of the puzzle just started to snap into place

of why things were the way they were. Once it was explained, I understood it. After that, though, I didn't want to know detail details. I get it. Don't tell me, you know, like I understand what it is and what he's doing and all that. But you don't have to recount. Like when things come out in the newspaper and he would be sitting with my sister looking at the newspaper and he'd go, point to this, this, and this. And I'd be like, nope, don't want to know.

The whole Gotti thing, didn't want to know. Well, you had the great, I mean, you had the worst detail you could possibly have witnessing what you saw at five years old. That was enough for me. There's no more I need to know. That was enough for me. I know that if you've, that's enough. That's so like deep inside you're repressed.

Yeah, keeping that down. And then when it does come out, it comes out with some vengeance in a lot of ways. That's crazy, though. Do you have a relationship with any of your siblings today? I'm close to my sisters. That's good. My one brother kind of pulled away from everybody. My other brothers, he sees my sister Roseanne, my sister Yolanda.

I saw him not long ago, so he's still around a bit. He's got a big life too, though. They all got their own lives doing their own things with their own kids. Yeah. You know, but we're all close in vicinity. That's good. So, yeah. Did you notice after you, you know, would start walking with your dad and stuff and knew what he did?

Like we had talked earlier about if you had ever noticed growing up, maybe people following him around or whatever, like these guys. But did you start to actually notice that, like guys with cameras and unmarked vehicles type thing? No. Wow, they were really well embedded then, huh? It wasn't. Like a couple of times, like I said, out in Jersey, I saw a car too. One guy followed me from a store. And I thought, oh, shit.

Like, who the fuck is this guy? And I stopped my car. And at that point, I was pissed. I was like, I got out of the car. I go, what do you want? He goes, no, I'm a painter. He says, I'm painting the house up the block. But I heard you were Vincent's granddaughter.

I said, no. I i said i'm his daughter i says what can i do for you he says i just i just wanted to say hello and maybe i can get your autograph terrible cover i said stupid agent there you go that's a nice that's an italian ice guy i said to him i'm not famous, so no, you can't have my autograph. If you ever need any painting done, here's my card. In the garbage. He got ripped up in the garbage. The best part about it is how long we documented the same thing. Yeah.

His walks. He's never going to break. Like at some point, you know, you know who the associates are. Right. So it's like you got to make your own break in some form or fashion which you know happens but not from any mistake he was going to make clearly right jim how do you in a because again this this one wasn't one you were actually this is right before you but but the pattern went yeah you have a pattern but you have a guy who is so committed to a character for 30 years.

And I mean, he would slip into play when he had to go places and not be that guy. He'd slip in back doors. He had everything set up ahead of time to be able so that if you were in range of a camera or something, no one could see him. How do you, as a surveillance guy, even make a case on a dude like that? It's a great point. And, you know i always look at it when we talk about motorcycle riders right dry guys that like motorcycle you don't have to worry about you you got to worry about the idiot drivers around you well it's the same

thing he didn't have to worry about him because he knew he was tight but it's the one or two idiots that make a mistake and we we exploit that right and we take you know and i mean it was your dad lived the code but but not everybody did. So you start getting into someone and just, look, I can make your life miserable or you can still have a life. What do you want to do? And most of the time, I will say- Or they couldn't have a life at all if my father found out. They couldn't have a life at all.

And that was something, again, we exploited as well. Hey, we can protect you. We can, which we've done pretty good with that, except for Solomon Dweck. That's another story. He's a whole different story. I'll go to Baltimore after we flew him around the world. Baltimore. Yeah, that's where he chose.

That's not my spot. Wasn't a great spot. Wasn't a great choice, but it worked for him. But I think it's always that other person that you find the hole. And there's holes, and we all know that in any portion of life. There's somebody that you know, we could name somebody right now that if they went to them, oh boy, they're finding that out. You guys are also investigating these guys at the FBI, but there were like joint task force with like NYPD and stuff too. NYPD was the best in the business.

I mean, you know, they had the knowledge. There were folks that worked FBI organized crime their entire career, 25, 30. And they know each other. I'm sure your dad knew the guys that were career FBI organized crime investigators. And they just had such a knowledge and history that they knew they could find that little breaking point. And that was enough. And those are very long cases. They're not overnight. And this FBI is this generation, which is instant gratification.

So they don't have the patience to work the public corruption, unfortunately, the terrorism cases and the oral crime cases. They'd rather just make a big, oh, wow, we got a huge supply of drugs that we found in Miami Beach. You know what? There's 85 other people waiting for you to clear that area so they can bring their drugs in. Right. So you're doing them a favor. So that's how I always look at it.

I think those old school mafia investigators, those FBI agents the task forces the nypd um they just had the patience and they loved it they almost felt like they were in the life like you talk to donnie brasco you talk to joe pistone yeah those were his best years right like think about that like he's like i never lived like that i could never live like that. I could never live like that. Right. He's right. Oh, my God. You know, because it was not that you ever asked, but you never had a need for anything except what you know in your life and you wrote your book about.

Right. Like, my family, Julian knows the story. My family, I was all mobbed up. My dad had to get out of the police department because he was being asked so many favors that he went to the fire department. Your dad wasn't. My dad was not. My dad was a Newark fireman. But I can remember being at the FBI Academy and we got an assignment and the assignment was simple. Hey, you need to go to the library, no internet, anything. You need to go to the library, no cell phones, Research another federal law enforcement agency and come back and just give us 600 words on what it's about. I go.

I pick out the ATF, a very special – it was called like a very special agent. Right. I start reading. I'm like, let me go to the pictures. I flip the pictures. The first picture, my Uncle Frank. It says, New Jersey's biggest, most notorious bootlegger. I pick up the phone in my room

I call my parent yeah hello when we went to see Uncle Frank was that jail or really at the church my mother's like oh yeah we should have probably told you because we don't want to make you nervous make me nervous now I'm getting questioned I'm getting polygraphed

oh my god so like he was yeah they were on it and then she goes and uncle dodo he was even worse he killed a few people i'm like okay i sat and my brother goes we sat on his lap i'm so nervous i'm like he wasn't gonna kill us yeah anyway but that's kind of yeah you know that's just the way yeah the way of the world to get ahead, to feel more secure, to take care of your family. And there was a code. And if you cross the line, there was, you know, don't, your widow would get beautiful, taken care of and beautiful flowers and taken care of for the rest of her life. But you weren't going to be the one to do it.

The word we haven't, I don't think we've used today yet, though, that needs to be brought up is one of my favorite topics. But it's environment, right? You only, like, it's easy for me or Alessi to sit here in 2024 and see the patterns of you as a child and be like, oh, of course. Yeah, that's the mafia. That's how it works. But, like, that's all you knew. You were born into a house where you had this mom, you had this dad. The dad wasn't there sometimes.

Your siblings were way older. Some weird shit happened happened sometimes some people got the shit kicked out of them but you didn't know why right you don't and you don't know like there there's there's a lot of like for you to come to the personal morals that you have today that you very clearly have like a lot of that has to be self-taught because the nature of your upbringing yeah i mean i mean mom mom had good morals even though she was in of course my grandmother did too even though they listen they protected him that was her son right yes that was her husband yes they had good morals but they're gonna protect their own that's how it was you know there was a sense of normalcy oh yeah you know i mean you 100 you of normalcy. Oh yeah. You know,

I mean, you grew up like every other kid. The only thing that didn't feel, for me anyway, was how women were treated. That I didn't... What do you mean? Yeah, talk about that. Well, because women were suppressed. You were expected to get married, have children, and take care of your mother. Period. End of story. You don't go to work. You don't have a career. You don't do any of that. So I never understood why that had to be. We were smart, all of us.

My one sister wanted to be a doctor. The other one could have been a chef or a baker. Was she told she couldn't be a doctor? Well, she was going in that direction and then he took she was 15 almost 16 when he moved her to new jersey and then oh she was living with him in new york no they were all living that's how old they were right oh right yeah yeah because they're much old older. So her whole life changed after that. And then she met her husband, and then it all shifted.

But he wasn't keen on that kind of stuff. I don't know if he was afraid that you would become something and then not be part of the family or not be able to take care of mom or – because he couldn't do it. He was involved – he had three families. And the one in the street took priority. Oh. You know? That's – it had to.

There was no other way for him to do his business without that when you're describing your dad and all like you said it maybe 10 20 minutes ago where you were like the man never left four blocks for most of his life right didn't take vacations when he walked outside for the last 30 years he was free he had to fake like he had schizophrenia he's being carted from place to place where then, you know, he can get inside a building and put on a suit and act normal again. Like all of this was to avoid prison. But he created his own. Own prison. I said it from day one.

Yeah, that's pretty. He was living behind bars before he was there. And that to me was the saddest part. Yeah. Now, for him, I think he enjoyed the power. I think he enjoyed, it was never about money because he, money was like, you know, if you lost 50 here, you got back 100 the next day. You know what I mean? But it definitely, your ego can get the best of you when it comes to power. And there was one time that I remember him coming to me

after he passed and he said there was one time he could have got out. And he knew that if he stayed past that, that that was it. He knew he was either coming out, leaving in a box or he was going to jail and that would have been it. So he did have an opportunity to walk away.

Did he say what that was? No, he did not. But he was young. He was young like before Vito really got him where he was like, you know, and he could have done it and he didn't. It's like a breaking point for him. Yeah. And you knew when you stepped over that line, that was it. Yeah, there was no going back. like you know and he could have done it and he didn't it's like a breaking point for him yeah and you knew when you stepped up when you stepped over that line that was yeah there was no going

back it's interesting though because his his mom i mean that story is pretty wild what your grandmother and that whole odyssey but like she's she came from a good background in italy she was very educated like you said she valued education, but he never had the... She never got him into doing that. He didn't. I mean, I don't think he even finished. Meet Tim's new Oreo Mocha Ice Caps with Oreo in every sip.

Perfect for listening to the A-side, or B-side, or Bull-side. Order yours on the Tim's app today at participating restaurants in Canada for a limited time. School. School. Yeah. Yeah, he didn't finish school.

So, again, environment, totally different environment here. Yes. Poor, no money. My grandmother would not accept money from Italy. Like, it's like she made her bed. That was the other thing. She made her bed, now she sleeps in it. Yeah.

She made that decision. So and, you know, then becoming who he became and being able to take care of your family and your mother who had nothing. His dad died young. My grandfather died young. That must have gave him great, you know. Yes. A great feeling. And that it all lends to it it all lends to it you know yeah my my uh i'm thinking of a parallel universe but my

my mom's dad his he was number five or six of like seven or eight whatever it was they were all boys and the father was an irish cop the mother was an italian immigrant and the father died he was saving a kid from being from drowning and then was killed like on the ambulance on the way there which was kind of crazy but he my grandfather was two years old his mom didn't speak any english and this is not when they had you know like the pension plan for you know this is like the late 30s for like a fallen police officer or something. And so he was around guys like that too. But he got lucky in the sense that the one thing the police association did offer for fallen officers was that the kids could go to any catholic high school in the city for free okay so he would go he did that and he also at that time got hooked up to where he could do i think it was during that

he could do night classes and he could work during the day or vice versa and he ended up like in this case his environment instead of vito genovese says be my driver here's 20 bucks they said here's 20 bucks you're gonna go package's 20 bucks. You're going to go package this shit. And then he ended up like running that company by, by the end of it, it was like a public company. Like when he retired, he was literally president and COO, which is pretty crazy. But I think about that a lot because all it takes is red pill or blue pill, which got, which guy offers the pill and which one do you take you know you're a kid you're 13 or 14 that's where the the fork in the road of your life can get formed and then

yeah it becomes what it becomes yep and that's where you know the the village and and that whole area that's where it all began with with the you know the the mafia and all that. So again, environment, he got brought into that. Yes. And that's what he knew. That's what he knew. That's what he saw. Exactly. That was his definition of value, success.

This is what life. This is what we must do. And he brought that to, you know, he brought that to his community. Yep. Where he lived. And no one, like you said, nobody went without anything. He took care of people. They felt safe, secure.

And they knew. And he drew on that. That was his mission. Yeah. You know? No, no. We, oh, go ahead. No, no, go.

I was saying we were introduced to our mutual friend, Lou Ferrante, who was on episode 185 of this podcast which Jim that was one you're supposed to be here for oh my god he'll be back you need the three of us in a row oh my god that would be got it he's incredible but Lou he was like a baby gangster right he got out at 24 but he was you know from 17 to 24 was in the life and he was a truck hijacker specifically for the gambinos now this this is where it gets a little confusing for me though just looking at the timeline because he was that hijacker in like the late 80s early 90s and this is when your father had a lot of beef if you will with the gambinos but what lou was telling me is that he would stay at your house in old japan all the time how did this happen like what was how did you guys know my god my

mother kept the secret um he would come uh for the weekend and just hang out and we would you know my mom had a pool and everything so he would uh come and just stay for the weekend and he would eat with us and we'd laugh our asses off. And, you know, I could give a shit what Lou did because he was just my good friend. And he would do anything for me if I needed it and vice versa. I wonder why. And I'm going to tell you, it really had – he didn't know in the beginning who I was. Oh, he didn't?

No. No. Until he knew. So I met him at a party. I think it was a – it was either a birthday or graduation party. We knew the mutual friend was having the party. And that's how me and Lou met. And then when he realized after the fact. Oh, my God.

Yeah. Then when he realized, we started hanging out. And he said, you know, and he was trying to explain things to me. I said, I really don't care. I said, you know, just come hang out. Let's just. But then they found out that he was coming and hanging out. And so he got told to stay away.

And then he came anyway and i and my mother was hoping that lou and i would get married that he turned the tide yeah he seemed the beast she really thought you know i was going to be a switch hitter and i just was like – so at one point, it could have been like where that might have happened, but I know I was who I was. Right. He was just like my dearest – like a brother to me. Yeah, like a brother. Exactly. And so he kind of figured it was what it was, but we just never stopped hanging out even though he got told.

And my mother never said anything to anybody. But how – in the first place, how did he meet anyone in your family? That's what I was going to – I haven't asked him that. So you met him. And then he started coming over a lot. Yeah. Okay. All right.

Now it makes sense. Because the way he – when we had talked, I didn't really ask him about like the details of this. But when he was talking, it sounded like he was, like, a family friend. Yeah. Absolutely. Like, immediately my mother loved him. Of course. And he, you know, I didn't know about him right away either.

You know, like, that he was with Gotti and all that. And when he told me, I was like, I don't give a shit. Where do I care? Like, I didn't want to know from that. Your father doesn't like john though that's the problem yeah well that's his business he's he's oh oh we gotta take a quick bathroom break we'll be right back all right we're back jim actually you've been kind of hinting certain little investigations today but what maybe we could start with the tino

famara one yeah what what was that investigation because he was one of the guys who followed up your father basically like i think he was in charge of the family at one point right the genovese i think so yeah yeah so when was that well in my my version of it was like 98 so 98 99-ish. And we had a tasking. We had the ability to get up on several pay phones in Belmar, in Belmar-Springlake area, down in New Jersey. So it's funny. The operation ran out of the police chief of Springlake's home in his garage. He was so happy because the government paid him a boatload of money.

He never would have made it in summer rent, but we were able to do it throughout the year. in his garage he was so happy because the government paid him a boatload of money he never would have made it in summer rent but we were able to do it throughout the year so he was thrilled he couldn't do enough like hey you guys should stay up for the next year you know and we're like well we really don't need to we're taking the case down but um yeah that wasn't that was my first experience with the kind of like similar to your dad in that there's a persona that's there's a personality that is aiding in their survival how do we survive and obviously uh it's funny like we've talked about he created his own jail so he didn't have to go to jail in his mind right so i think famara did that in a lot of ways too um He had something where he wanted to have his,

I guess you would call kind of his sixth sense was based on a wave to everyone. So he would wave to everyone. He would ride his bicycle on the boardwalk. This guy was a deadly killer and it was publicized. He was a bat killer and piano wire, old-fashioned stuff. So he'd hit people over the head with that beat them to death which is a totally that's another level what we were talking about that's serial killer shit yeah no so um anyway we get tasked as brand new participants

that we had to go through and check our book off like did you surveil a mobster check you know yeah and um so i get i was happy because i was living down the shore and with my family so i was like i'll do it every day and you know we learned about surveillance techniques and and you know with car surveillance but what we never really learned about was walking or bicycling how do you keep up with someone who purposefully is riding a bike and stopping at pay phones to make his calls so you had the pay phones wired you said we had the pay phones wired until how many i think there was eight and they were they were kind of like all over the beach area unless a pay phone is a phone you have to go pay to put you know what

that is less he's like i pay for this um so you had eight. I cut you off. I'm sorry. I think it was eight. I think it was eight locations, and the phones were there. So, you know, we would – one team would follow him. He's at the shop right, you know, and then you'd watch him make a call. Hey, look, pay phone six is coming up. Then people would be ready, and the whole rules of Title III is that you have to minimize.

Oh, wow. Yeah, you got to minimize. Like you can't listen to if, let's say we recorded you and your dad and you're just talking about school. We can't record that because it's got nothing to do with his. Now, how blurry are those lines though?

Initially, initially very blurry. As time goes on though, you're taking a chance by recording something you know has nothing to do. You start to get familiar with the personalities that are calling in. Who's he talking to every day? Who's Tino talking to? What's he saying?

And code words, you know, you learn code words. Like, hey, you know, we need whatever the hell McGreevy was using on his when he was recorded. Right, right, right. What was it? Machiavellian or something was his keyword. So until one day he's driving, he's riding down the boardwalk on his bike and you know, Hey,

how are you? How are you? How are you? And he would look for the person that was like, you know, nice, a nice, he's a good looking like guy,

always in great shape. So, you know, if you're like this and one of the agents was like that and he goes, Hey, you know, next call was don't, don't talk on these phones anymore.

We're done here. That was it. It ended that quickly. So you, you know, that was it. And it ended that quickly. So, you know, the procedure is one thing, but the tickling of the wire, which is what we call it, how you get people to elicit statements on the phone is really based on, you know, I want to hear a conversation between your dad and his number one.

What do I do? I go out to the local store and I walk in and say, do you ever hear of a guy named Bill Smith? And they're like, oh shit. Let me call Bill Smith and let him know. Now what's Bill Smith doing? He's reporting back up. Not in your desk, but trying to get out.

And next thing you know, you get that phone call. It's like, hey, the FBI is out here asking about you. Bingo. What were they asking about? Well, they served a subpoena on this you know on this bank smoking them out we know the bank account is whatever and then it just goes from there then we go out to the bank right and then we just start the process so now how how hard this is this is a question i always forget to ask that should be asked with these wiretaps we've talked about it with like some high level like

international stuff but when it comes to like organized crime in america how hard is it to get a wire extremely difficult and people think it's so easy they're always paranoid about their phones being recorded and those things not the case it's the last it's you have to exhaust every other ability to to do what you do every other there's six or seven things that we can do before we ask for a wiretap application. Remember, they're only 30 days long. They can only be 30 days long. You have to hear something.

They can, but you have to hear something that proves your point or you have to expand it based on other things you heard. We might be looking for a murder for hire and come across a drug situation. So now we got to go back and say, hey, judge, we didn't hear anything on the murder for hire, but we got drugs. And then over time, but you know, you got to exhaust surveillance. You got to exhaust interviews. You got to exhaust subpoenas. You got to exhaust counter surveillance. You got to all those things. And you know, when it comes down to it, if you're going against a mafia person, you're going to say, look, there's no way I can go

interview anybody because they know everybody knows everybody. There's no way I could surveil him because he's onto it. I can't get inside and listen to conversations or interview anybody or serve subpoenas because it's going to get back to them. That's kind of the process. But also, also though, you know, we've talked about with Raj Rajaratnam's case, another guy I had on the podcast, he was actually wiretapped. He was a hedge fund guy. But his judge even said it after the case he did an interview where he said the wiretaps are real tough in any case because you can you can have a phone call where someone calls and says mom will

be home for spaghetti at six and you sound guilty of something yep so what I'm saying is these blurry lines of like oh 30 seconds I haven't heard anything I'm not is these blurry lines of like, oh, 30 seconds, I haven't heard anything. I'm not even accusing the FBI of overreaching right here, though I'm sure that happens with some bad agents. But like let's say Rita calls up her dad and says something. Actually, let's use that same example, says something like that, like mom wants to know if you're going to be home for spaghetti at 6 or whatever. If I'm an agent right there, I might say, well, it's the daughter. She doesn't, I don't know what she knows, but like, that's, I could say that sounds suspicious. Could I not? So, so at the end of the day, what the check and balance on that is, we now have to take that to

a prosecutor. The prosecutor is going to ask those questions. Why did you listen to that? Why was it 40 seconds over? What was your thought process? And they're not going to utilize that going forward. So you lose the evidence. It's just like if I went in on a search warrant and the scope said, can only take black buttons with white letters, you know, whatever. And I took that one white button with black letters. Why the hell did you take that? It's not in the scope fruit, like they call it fruit of the poisonous tree. It doesn't follow. Right. So now, well, if you took that, you probably wanted to take this and looked at it, right? And then it's on. The constitution for the best reasons is extremely strict with regards to how you make a case. I follow the evidence. If the evidence

give me truth, I don't take facts and interpret facts for my own being. And many of the cases and the agents that you see that go bad, they interpret the facts so that they benefit from it. It's not the job. The job is simply protecting the constitution by collecting evidence and fact that shows either guilt or innocence of a person that's being prosecuted. Many times, and I've seen it, I probably have participated in it without knowing, but I did. And you were like, whoa, I'm not so sure. And then appeals, you know, appeals are a good thing. We have one, we have a client right now that we're going through that process. And really our only out is to take that to that level where we're saying this is malicious prosecution based on not following the rules. And that hurts me to do it because, you know, I'm now, if I have a client and I need

to protect that client, I have to find the little holes that allow me to plunge through. Many of retired agents, they're like, well, why would you ever work again? Because it's not working against, it's working for the truth. Right. I don't interpret facts. Facts are facts. I deal in facts. I want to start interpreting. Well, then I don't know who the hell does that. What was your – it sounds like he never talked about it directly with you but like maybe through other – your siblings or other people who told you.

What was your dad's thoughts on the fbi outside of like oh he didn't like them because they were chasing them like what what do you think about their tactics or how they did their job that's a great question yeah you know um um he's in my head right now. He's saying, tell Diorio to shut up. Say hi to Vinny. Yeah. He just knew he was smarter. And he knew he could get around them.

He trusted. I mean, this was one thing he would say to me all the time. I don't trust my left hand for my right. He said, so I don't trust anyone. And so he would make sure he would hold the people that were close to him close, but his enemies closer. Very godfather of him. Yeah.

Yeah. So he's not he just it's like you said you could you know he they could have they could have done more he's saying they could have done more but they they didn't and he knew that they couldn't and whatever they did do he knew how to get around for a long time he was right about that yeah my god yeah and some of them some years some of them he would tip his hat to or shake their hand or he had no you know he said some of them were nice nice enough people yep you know but um but he but he just...

There was a piece of him at one point that felt he was invincible. Yeah, for sure. But never took it for granted. So he always had his backup. You know, it was not like he put his guard down in any moment. The only time that ever happened was when he was in jail at the end. And 9-11 happened, and he immediately got on the phone to make sure we were all okay, and talked.

Just like you and I are talking now. And they had it all on tape, and that's how they were able to say... Oh, that's how they got him. That's how they got him. So they got him because they added, like, three years to his sentence later for obstruction of justice for faking. Whoa. And if he did not admit who he was and what he did, they were going to come after all of us. And that's when he.

Oh, because you guys. Right. And that's when he just said everything. He broke down and, not not broke down but you know what i mean he just broke character said this is i'll admit to everything you leave my family alone whoa yeah and that was like i don't think it was completely unprecedented but it wasn't you don't see like the boss of a family ever like copping to a plea or something, you know, at the time at least.

When it came to his family, though, it was completely different. Yeah, all bets are off. Yeah. Did you see him a lot when he was in prison? You only saw him once? Once. In eight, what was that, like eight years, something like that? Yep.

I got the fear of flying gene back then. It was enough to see him once, though, in a prison. It was hard. It was very hard. He was angry at me because I wasn't going to see him. Because he wanted me to take my mother every other weekend because the other family was going every other weekend too. We were switching off. And I didn't want to do it. I didn't want to go. And I actually drove to North Carolina to see him. Where was he, Butner? Yeah. And then it was enough for me.

I was like, yeah, I don't want to. Not only do I don't want to see him like this, but I don't want to be in this energy like this. Yeah. It was hard. Totally get it. It was hard. I had asked you earlier about, it was a little bit of a direct question early on, but about like your relationship with him and whether or not it was like, it was love for him strictly because you're related to him or because there is something genuine there. But even if your relationship for so many years was that purely like quick conversational thing, like it is your dad right so at some point here you know it's like

you're weighing with who he was and some of the bad shit he did but then you also see the good side that he had too and then you have people on the outside who know who he is who have their opinion one way or the other i had how did you ever find peace with that? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, because before he passed, I was writing him letters, and you'll see them in my book as well. I was writing him letters telling him what was going on. I had moved out of my mother's house.

He didn't know. So he thinks I'm writing from my mother's house. Put the right return address on there. Yeah, had to make sure. But he began to realize that there was something to the things that I was saying to him, like, you know, I'm sorry you didn't get to know me for who I really was. You know, and you were caught up in that life and you didn't get a chance to really experience who I am. And then I started to tell him who I was. Um, and I started to tell him, and I, I guess, you know, he was, cause he was religious. So he believed. So the things I was telling him about spirit and what I was coming to terms with in my own life and all of that, he was, he responded in a way that I was just floored by.

Like I wrote a forgiveness letter to him that I think completely like broke him at that point because he called my mother and asked to speak to me after he got the letter because he read it. And he had, my mother said he was like, almost like crying over the phone. Like, please tell her I understand that I got it. I got what she said, you know, and she was right. And on and on and on he was going and she called me and she goes, what did you say? I said, I'll bring it and I'll show you, you know? And she read it and she called me and she goes, what did you say? I said, I'll bring it and I'll show you, you know? And she read it and she was crying and I just put like my heart all into it, you know? And I had no expectation of him responding

or a return letter and I left it. I just knew that when I got it out and I wrote it all, that I was done that i i healed that piece and then when he called and he wrote back i was like oh he's already transitioning meaning he's already shifting his energy before he leaves here and i knew he wasn't probably coming out especially when they added those three years yeah i mean he had he had had open heart surgery like you said it's not like if they were to let him out when they did those three years. Yeah, I mean, he had open heart surgery, like you said. It's not like a tough thing to do. If they would have let him out when they did, he would have been alive.

He would have lived long. Yeah. Because he had good doctors, because he probably would have had another open heart if he needed the valve changed. But he ate like shit when he was in there. What's cool was I actually heard from a few people that hung out with him in there.

That's pretty cool. Wow. They wrote me, you know, and they said, you know, this is, you know, I met your dad and I would hang out with him and, you know, he would, you know, protect me. Yeah, those guys are treated like kings in there. You know what I mean? And they love, just love talking with him and I think to myself, oh God, to be a fly on the fucking wall, to know what he was talking to them about, usually outside when they would let them out on the grounds and everything, he would be just to be, and they told me some of the conversations they had with him.

And I'm like, there he is. There's the human being that I know he was. And that he just could be himself. And I think to myself, like you were saying before, he already made a jail for himself, right? The thought came to me was, well, now he's in jail, but he's fucking free. Because he can just be. No need to look around over your shoulder anymore. You know what I mean?

Like, what a dichotomy. Yeah. Crazy. Truly is. So I almost was like, oh, that's nice that he could experience that. He was eating shit that he never ate when he was out, like ringdings and shit from the fucking vending machines after a while. I'd be doing the same thing. Yeah, why not?

Fuck it. So when I hear from people like that that three or four people reached out to me and said how much they loved him and he was just a great guy to sit and talk with you know that makes me feel good yeah and and like he's a legend of that world for sure so you know they're sitting with a piece of history but that's really cool that you got to write that yeah letter and get that oh it was the best i love that it was the best feeling and the fact that i got the reaction which again no expectations i learned a long time ago not to have expectations of anyone you know and when he when he called i was like oh thank you god like he got it like it hit his soul. I could feel it. He was in,

at that time he was in Missouri. That's where he passed. And I could feel the energy between us. And I was like, oh, this is, this is awesome. Oh, so this is right near the end. Yeah. Wow. That's powerful. What's cool. What's cool to me is that his trials in his life, you know, obviously lead to our testimony. And what those letters are saying to you is he ministered to other people. Yeah, 100%. And if you think about that, that's powerful. That's God.

Yeah. You know, and that to me is like, that's probably where he secured his spot. Yeah. For all the things he may have done as a flawed human. Yeah. What he did in those last couple months probably was the thing that pushed him away. A little bit, yeah. I'm not one of, I don't believe in hell and all that shit that they come up with in that religion.

So I knew where he was going anyway. But my mother was afraid for him. Of course. And she would say to me, Reed, do you really think he's, I says, Ma, I said, you know how many rosaries he said a day? I said, it's not like he didn't believe and he wasn't, he didn't love God and he didn't. I said, he just made choices that weren't maybe for, you know, his highest good. I said, but he did a lot of good things too.

I said, so it balances out after a while. But the fact that he copped to who he was and did all of that for his family totally cleared some of the karma. Yeah. Totally agree. You know, it's so similar that that is really the common denominator with all quote unquote criminals, you know, is that the family strikes them. And the ones that aren't, you know, they're your they're your psychopaths. They're your they're your Jeffrey Dahmers. And you're not going to get to anybody like that regardless.

Yeah, that's a different from the terrorist to the white collar person. If you just say, hey, you know, your wife signed those those tax returns as well. So we can. That's it. You know, it would be like, hey, I did it. One hundred percent. Just got to promise me. He's saying to me, tell them that if I was still there and I was still doing what I was doing, that there would be much more equality. Oh, he's saying if he was president, that there would be much more equality where money is concerned. Like there would be no poor people in this world, he's saying.

Like he would be taxing the people that needed to be taxed right in order to have the money for the people that didn't have and he'd be giving out his own money yep someone call up bernie sanders right now yeah tell him we just what about soldiers was he was he a patriot with soldiers and you mean did he go to no no did was he a patriot like did he love the military and respect it he He felt like, well, he's saying to me now, he says it was a shame that we had to get to those points, to have to put kids in a position where, you know, where we could have settled it another way. I wonder what that means. We could have settled it another way and not have a legion of kids die over things that could have been settled.

He says that the corruption is beyond, you know, what he says, what I know, of course, because I don't, please, I can't even watch the fucking news. I know. It's tough. So, you know, he sees it from a different perspective now, from a higher perspective. So he's not judging it. He's just saying, oh, God, I see what I could have done. I could have helped in the ways. The greater good.

Yeah. Yeah. Did your siblings have the opportunity to have a catharsis, if you will, in their own way with your father too? I'm not sure. I can honestly too? I'm not sure. I can honestly say that I'm not sure because nobody has shared that with me. I can tell you that I have spoken to my sisters and, you know, they get out stuff when they need to that they're still processing. And then there are times where they're okay and they're, you know, we talk it out and

it's good. What kinds of things, if you don't mind me asking? Like people think we still have a lot of money, right? Buried somewhere or something. Yeah, like when he died, like he left us millions and millions of dollars. You can take us after. Yeah. But what they don't realize is I work for a living.

My sister's a crossing guard, making money and living off her Social Security and pension that my ex-brother-in-law had. So we're not living high on the hog. Right. You know what I mean? So sometimes a sister will get upset like oh he could have left us better you know like we wouldn't have to be where we are today if you know and then we all look at each other and go all right we're learning a lesson from this there was a

reason why we didn't get i says and you know what i don't know if i could have i said i would have had to dump that money somewhere where i would have had to change the energy of it. It's blood money. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's blood money. Yeah. It's like, I would have had to put it into a, uh, a kid's, you know, uh, place where they, where I could help children with that didn't have homes or that didn't have food

or, you know, I'd be helping communities left and right with it, you know? So that, you know, we would, if it were right with it you know so that you know we would if it were mine i wouldn't have kept it i would have been using it for something better to change the energy yes you know what i mean yes um so just those types of things like things that when you get upset about them now and you think back and you go, God, it could have been so much easier if he would have just this. Right. You know, or just this. And, you know, the other family was treated very different than us.

How so? They were favored. You know, they were favored in a lot of ways. He spent four out of the five during the day, four nights at least there. So he knew them differently, especially than me. And so they all went to college. They all got their own businesses or whatever, which, hey, more power to you. I have no issues with any of that.

I have to be honest with you. He wanted to do that for them, fantastic. I'm not a jealous person. I never was. So for me, it's like I feel like I'm accomplished because I did it myself. Yeah. And that's what makes me feel good. But so many people get handed to them, not just this fit.

So many people get handed to them businesses over a legacy of their. Yeah. And they don't even want it, some of them. They go a whole different direction. But, you know, again, I wish them all well. I hope everybody is good. And I know their mom is still alive. So that's lovely because I wish I had my mom still.

Without a doubt and i'm actually glad though because she went through a lot physically so i'm i'm happy that she's how long ago did she pass 2015 okay yeah it was like losing an arm for me yeah because i took care of her my whole life you know do you even emotionally i took care of her as a kid because i was well i was a change of life baby half half of them were out of the house my my the elanda rosanna and andrew no elanda rosanna sal married all out andrew was really wasn't living home on and off on and off so i was her you know kept her going. Yeah, the second phase, if you will. Exactly.

Wow. Exactly. Yeah, and she carried a lot. And then she had to carry a lot through you because of what you experienced when you were young. Yeah. And so your siblings, as far as you know, didn't have an experience like that, though, when they were young, right? No. And they might have been you know it might

have affected them a little differently because they weren't empaths yeah you know they weren't sensitive like me so it may have affected them differently for me it was just it hit me in a way that nobody would understand unless they lived in my body yeah you know yeah know? Yeah. They just wouldn't know. Do you think there, what's coming across to me is that your mom loved your dad a lot. She talked about his innocence. She had, it was, he was all she ever knew. Unconditional. Unconditional.

Or whatever. Do you think your dad loved your mom or? I do. You do? Yeah. I do. But I will tell anybody this, and this is just the truth. We are not monogamous beings. I, I do. But I will tell anybody this, and this is just the truth. We are not monogamous beings.

I agree with you. We choose to be monogamous. And that life called for a hundred different women if they wanted, right? Yep. I've had people come and try and get in touch with me to find out if they're a sibling, you know, because they think maybe my dad was their father. And I think, right, I've had that. I've had people reach out to me for that.

And I'm like, well, listen, anything's possible. I'm sure he was around. But don't come here looking for anything because I got nothing to tell you, you know. I wish you all the best. But don't come here looking for anything because I got nothing to tell you, you know? I wish you all the best, but... What was that tweet from Ronan Farrow a few years ago? He was like, when they were trying to say that Frank Sinatra is his father. You ever seen that? No.

Can we pull up a picture of Ronan Farrow next to Frank Sinatra just so people can see this? So people were trying to say Ronan is not, I guess, would it be Woody Allen's son or whatever? He's actually Sinatra's. Put Ronan Farrow next to Sinatra. And like there was people looked at it a few years ago and they're like, wait a minute. Like, yeah, pull that first one up right there. Actually, no. Close that one out.

The second one. Close that one out. Nope, nope, nope. Hit the X. Hit the X on the picture on the right side. All the way over. All the way over to the right. Up.

Yeah, there you go. Hit the one. See Frank with the hat right there? Yeah. Hit that. I mean, look at that. Look at them. Like, they kind of do look the same.

So there was this whole, like, conspiracy on the internet. Like, oh, my God, this is actually Frank's son because he didn't get along with his dad. And he tweeted out look, technically we're all possibly Frank Sinatra's son. It's kind of reminded me of that right now. That's how you got

treated in a way. It's like you don't know where he went. I don't know. Don't even care but um i know they loved each other um and that's all that mattered to me was that they did and now they're having a blast yep yeah you know in the spirit world i'm i'm actually happy about that they got to reconnect with each other that's awesome and you can't ask for more. And you got to forgive your dad while he was still alive. And my mom. Yeah, sure.

That weight has been off now for a very long time. That's got to feel pretty good considering the fact that, like, all the trials you were put through, I would argue, were not really in any way of your own making. I think I'm trying to put myself in your shoes and the things you had to deal with by 7, 9, 10, 5, seeing that. It would only be mine if I chose to be a victim in this and a martyr and say, well, this is what was done to me. So, you know, this is it. Like, why should I do anything? So then it would be on me. But I said,

no, I'm not doing that. I'm not going to be a victim to this. I'm going to live my life. That's awesome. So that's what I'm hoping for others that connect to me or read the book or, you know, want to reach out. That's what I tell them. It doesn't matter the circumstances. It's your responsibility at a certain age. You've got to take things into your own hands. I think that's, especially today, that's amazing advice because I never, you know, I'm one of these guys, I listen to other people's experiences and I, and I keep

myself humble to the idea that I can't fully understand that. Right. I'm going to understand it based on what you're telling me, but like, I didn't live that I wasn't there. And so I never want to be the person like, shut the fuck up and figure it out. Like toughen up life's hard. Right. But you also don't want to be the person. If you're sitting in my seat with that kind of thing who encourages someone to wallow in the things that have happened to them, which is easier said than done. I mean, you hear some of the things that happen to people. Look at your own life as well. You know, I think it's really cool, though, that you're someone who can advise people on that and help them with that because you're coming at it from the perspective of I know i understand i actually have an understanding of maybe some of the types of things you're going through right and you do have to take responsibility at some point because you get this one life and if you just sit there and cry the whole time like it's never going to get good maybe it's not good

right now but it's never going to get good yeah i remember the day that i came to that realization and um i was so grateful as the because that day i was in a world of shit and i went to at three o'clock in the morning i woke my mother up i said take me to see him i need to see him i went down to the city he knew i was coming he knew my mother was coming we called my grandmother and he opened the door and with open arms, he grabbed me and he was hugging me and we went inside and as I was laying between them, my head was on his lap. And from when I was a very young kid, he used to rub my back.

It was one of the things that I remember dearly about him. He had the best hands, like surgeon hands. And he would rub my back and I would fall asleep. And I was in and out because I was exhausted. I was going through one of my depressions. And I remember hearing them say, like, hon, what are we going to do? Like, she's, you know, she's like this, you know, how can we help her? I don't know how to help her, blah, blah, blah. And I'm hearing it. They think I'm sleeping, but I'm half in, half out. And in my mind, in that moment, it clicked. I was like, okay, they don't know what to do. They don't know how to help me. As much as I want help,

they just don't have, they're not equipped. It's not that they're bad parents. They're just not equipped. I know they love me. They just don't know what to do. And in that moment, I said, if I don't do this, I'm never getting out of this. The next day, I woke up a fucking new frame of mind, new person. It was like I was on a mission. Put myself in therapy. Started to do very spiritual work with myself. met all different kinds of people to help me.

And that's how the road began to, you know, getting to where I am today. That's amazing. That is an amazing piece. And what I love about it too, I don't know if you thought about it this way, they didn't know what to do, but they weren't going to do anything that would hurt you further. Exactly. That's the beauty of that. Yeah. So you recognize that.

Of course. Let's get it going. And think about the ripple effect of that one moment and what you've done to help other people. I can't. It's not. It's crazy. I get on my hands and knees every day, and I thank God, because without that experience,

without picking those two people in my life to go through what I went through, I would not be here today like this. Isn't that something? That's beautiful. Really. It's a hell of a story. It's the best. And you tell it really well as well. And I think people are really, you know, people are going to tune into an episode like this to hear about the mafia stuff as well because it is wildly interesting to us.

Absolutely. to an episode like this to hear about the mafia stuff as well because it is wildly interesting to us absolutely but there's a real human side effect on this story and i i i think i i think it's amazing and and i think your your ability to take control of your own shit you know and and live the life the way you have you're such a happy-go-lucky person off camera too as well which is really cool. That's awesome to see. Thank you. We will have the link to your book down in the description so people can get that. Jim, thanks for joining us today. Hey, it's my pleasure.

Can I say one thing? Yeah, please. You see this shirt? It's C.J. Morgan. We've talked about him before, his foundation. He just – anniversary of his – fifth anniversary of, June, June 6th of this year. Just take a look, folks,

take a look at the CJ foundation, what mom and dad are doing, what Chris and April are doing. I'd ask that you just learn about it a little bit. Yeah. Amazing story. Amazing story. We talked about that in episode 48.

Yeah, we did. Thank you. Thank you for having me. All right. Thank you. My pleasure. My honor. All right. Everybody else. Thank you for coming. Thank you. My pleasure. My honor.

All right. Everybody else, and thanks to Lou Ferrante for hooking it up. I love him. But everybody else, you know what it is. Give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace. Thank you guys for watching the episode.

Before you leave, please be sure to hit that subscribe button and smash that like button on the video. It's a huge help. And also, if you're over on Instagram, be sure to follow the show at Julian Dory Podcast or also on my personal page at Julian D. Dory. Both links are in the description below. Finally, if you'd like to catch up on our latest episodes, use the Julian Dory Podcast playlist link in the description below. Thank you.