Julian Dorey Podcast - #235 - Scientology Leader’s Niece EXPOSES Cult’s Inner Power Structure | Jenna Miscavige

Episode Date: September 11, 2024

Buy Factor Meals Get 50% off your first box using Code "Julian50": https://www.factormeals.com/julian50 (***TIMESTAMPS in description below) ~ Jenna Miscavige Hill is an American former Scientologist. After leaving the Church of Scientology in 2005, she has become an outspoken critic of the organization. JENNA’S LINKS: https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Belief-Secret-Scientology-Harrowing/dp/0062248480 EPISODE LINKS - Julian Dorey PODCAST MERCH: https://juliandorey.myshopify.com/  - Support our Show on PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/JulianDorey   - BUY Guest’s Books & Films IN MY AMAZON STORE: https://amzn.to/3RPu952   FOLLOW JULIAN DOREY INSTAGRAM (Podcast): https://www.instagram.com/juliandoreypodcast/  INSTAGRAM (Personal): https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey/  X: https://twitter.com/julianddorey JULIAN YT CHANNELS - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Clips YT: https://www.youtube.com/@juliandoreyclips   - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Daily YT: https://www.youtube.com/@JulianDoreyDaily   - SUBSCRIBE to Best of JDP: https://www.youtube.com/@bestofJDP   Get $150 Off The Eight Sleep Pod Pro Mattress / Mattress Cover (USING CODE: “JULIANDOREY”): ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://eight-sleep.ioym.net/trendifier⁠⁠⁠⁠ ****TIMESTAMPS**** 00:00 - Jenna Miscavige Growing Up in Scientology & Niece of David Miscavige 12:49 - What David Miscavige is Really Like & Disconnection from Family 25:41 - Jenna Becoming Part of Sea Org & Emotionless Upbringing 36:41 - Inside Dark Life Working in Scientology & Disconnection from Society 45:19 - Classroom Learning in Scientology (Inside the Bubble) & Chain of Command Punishments (Repressive Person) 54:41 - Jenna’s Brother Punished & Leaving Scientology 01:08:52 - Flag Training at 16 & New Roles (Questioning Cult) 01:20:43 - Interrogations & Living in Scientology Prison (International Members) 01:33:17 - Jenna Getting Angry with Family & Issues Rising, Letters from Mom 01:41:41 - Interactions with Shelly Miscavige, Who She Really Was! (Getting in Trouble Story) 01:56:45 - Child Labor in Scientology, Torture of being Watched 24/7 & Intense Interrogations 02:08:13 - Scientology’s Bizzare Differences to Reality, Getting Married Early & Scientology's Lack of Proliferation 02:18:11 - Emotionally Repressed Environment (Sex), Being Separated from Husband (Dallas) & Response 02:25:39 - Jenna’s Family Didn’t Want Her Married, Her Wedding & Husbands Family Strong Hate for Her 02:34:15 - Build Up to Leaving Scientology in 2005, Wanting to Have Kids 02:45:13 - Outside Opinions on Scientology, Scientology Making People's Lives Miserable, Trying to Escape 02:54:37 - Jenna’s Husband Turns on Her (Mike Rinder Interrogates), Finally Leaving Scientology 03:03:40 - Jenna’s Husband's Fear of Disconnection & Mike Rinder's Involvement, Private Investigators Spying on Her 03:12:43 - Unbrainwashing Herself, Becoming Open Critic of Scientology 03:20:39 - (Shocking) Life After Scientology, Learning to Forgive Relatives & Relationships Now 03:31:07 - Find Jenna CREDITS: - Host, Producer, and Editor: Julian Dorey - In-Studio Producer: Alessi Allaman - https://www.instagram.com/allaman.docyou/ Julian Dorey Podcast Episode 235 - Jenna Miscavige Music by Artlist.io Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

So finally, I was like, okay, well, I can't do this anymore. I'm going to leave without you. I was going to go to my parents' house. And at this time, I did have my cell phone, and I could talk to them. And they, like, couldn't. Like, when they said they were going to take it away from me, I said I was going to call the police. So I wanted to be like, okay, all right, I'm going to leave without Dallas. And I was really upset.

And I remember I was going to leave the next day, and I was crying. And we were, like, hugging. And, like, he gave me one of his sweaters. And then he was like, okay, I'm going to take you to the airport. next day and I was crying and we were like hugging and like he gave me one of his sweaters and then he was like okay I'm gonna take you to the airport and then from Osa the gal was like no you can't take her to the airport you drop her in a cab say goodbye and that's it and then so to his credit he was like well no I'm gonna take her to the airport she's my wife I'm not gonna ever see her again and she was like absolutely not and like started acting crazy she's like fine I'm not going to ever see her again. And she was like, absolutely not. And like started acting crazy.

She was like, fine, I'm going to be in the car with you guys. So she was like in the backseat. He was like dropping me off and saying goodbye. And at that time, I remembered something. Like as I was leaving in the airport, like about to get on my flight, I remembered something that someone had said to me, a very senior executive. He was like the third in command of Scientology. He was like, all we care about is how you you're doing like Dallas can be thrown to the sharks if I leave

they're basically like they're gonna destroy him hey guys if you're not following me on Spotify please take a second to hit that button and leave a five-star review it is a huge huge help to the show and you can also follow me on Instagram and on X by using the links in my description. Thank you. Jenna, thank you so much for being here. Of course. It was an awesome surprise when Aaron mentioned that you were going to be coming in town too. But obviously in the past, you've had a bestselling book where you went through your journey and you did some interviews. It looks like a lot of them were like 10, 11 years ago. Is that about right? Yeah. So there's, there's good content of you on YouTube, but you know, you really, we, we heard from Aaron yesterday on the podcast, he grew up in the inner sanctum of Scientology. You did as well, but on another level of that, you were a part of

Scientology's royal family, if you will. Right. And yet you also had the bravery to end up breaking away from that and leaving that now many years ago and also from the outside speaking up. So I think that's incredible. But I'd really like to go through your story today and understand Scientology through your eyes as you understand it, if that's cool. Of course. Okay. So let's start at the beginning. You weren't living in California when you were born, you were telling me?

Right. Yeah, I was born in New Hampshire. My parents had previously been in Scientology and the Sea Organization, and then they had left. And then just before I turned two, they went back to California and joined up again. So they were allowed to come back to the Sea Org even though they had left it? There was some sort of thing going on where they like were told that you know you got in trouble before but this person is gone who you had gotten in trouble with it wasn't your fault and we'll sort of forgive everything and you'll be in good standing again. Okay. So that's a new one for me.

So when they went into the Sea Org though, we were talking about some of this on the podcast with Erin, but there's all kinds of rules there. Right. And one of them is that you at the time being two years old, you were essentially, if I understand it, mostly separated from your parents, right? Yeah. So when they joined in Los Angeles, well, at first I was living with them. But then when I was four, they went to the Scientology International Management Base, where I only saw them once a week from that point on. So you're four years old, only seeing your parents once a week. I'm trying to think like my first memories that I can even think of on this earth or when I'm three, mostly like four years old. So do you like, do you really remember

a lot about your parents from when you were a younger kid or is it mostly like, oh, they were here once in a while and I saw them? I mean, I definitely remember because I would look forward to the day that I would see them the entire week. And so it was like a big event for me. And that was like really special. And it was just for like a few hours. So it's not even like a day or like it's almost like visitation hours. Yeah. I mean, it was almost like they would be sleeping in in the morning and then we would get up and eat some food and then they would leave because they were coming down from San Bernardino. So they were like two hours away. So they would have to drive down and then drive back up.

And who were you living with again? So I actually lived in the apartment where my parents would come down and see me, but there was a gal that they had stay with me who she was just another staff member, but they had her stay with me when they weren't there. So that's so strange. So they would, they would literally hire someone from Scientology to watch you, but your own parents who are also in Scientology aren't allowed to be with you. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

And they wouldn't hire her. She was just a staff member, just an extra duty that she did. Yeah. Yeah. Told what to do. Either way. Yeah. That's wild to me.

So how many years did it go on like that? So that was for about two years. And then I went up to somewhere that was closer to where they were. It was about 20 minutes away, but I still only saw them once a week. It was like a boarding school. Well, I mean, so you're going to school then up there, but it's not Scientology related. It's a different kind of school. It's only a Scientology Sea Org. Yeah. So it's like the place where we were, it was like owned

by Scientology and the Sea Org and the international management base. And it was all kids of people who worked at the international management base. Is that the ranch? Yeah. Is that what it's called? Yeah. Okay. I think Tony talked about that. Yeah. So how many, you know, are you around, this is not like that many kids I would imagine. Like how many kids are at this at one given time? Well, there was about 80 kids there. Yeah.

So it's not like 800 or something like that. So there's not, they're all different ages too. Right. Yeah. So like my brothers were there, but they are eight years older than me. So is the schooling like, do they have you in grades or based on your age and your learning level or how did that work? So there were no grades and we spent half the day like doing work to upgrade the property and to like make it nicer and even like do construction and like build gardens.

And then the second half of the day was schooling, but there weren't any grades. We were all together in one classroom, kids of all ages. And we basically learned things on a checklist that were called check sheets. It was like self-led learning. So nobody was teaching us anything. We had to follow the checklist and do what it said. And if we asked questions, like basically they weren't even allowed to answer questions that we had.

Because in L. Ron Hubbard's study technology, he basically says if you can't understand what you're reading, it's because there's a word you don't understand. And so literally if we would ask the teacher for help, they be like okay what word don't you understand we could we wouldn't we're never allowed to have anything explained to us thinking back on that you know because when i picture things like this in a movie it feels like a 1984 type movie right where where the teacher in that case is like a robot right and. And you walk up to them, they're like, huh, what word don't you understand? Like, I would imagine it doesn't quite look like that. But I'm getting nods over here from Aaron. It's exactly like that. It's like that. Yeah. Guys, if you're not following me on Instagram, you can get me at Julian Dory podcast or also

on my personal page at Julian D. Dory. Those links are in the description below. You can also follow me on X at Julian D. Dory. That link is in the description below. And as always, please smash that subscribe button if you haven't already and hit that like button on the video. It is a huge, huge help. I appreciate all of you who have been subbing and all of you who are liking all these videos. Thank you. And you're just a kid. So this is all you know. You think that that's how everyone is, right? Yeah. So you're looking back at it like 1984. And I'm looking back at it like normal. Whoa. When did you realize who your uncle was? Who your family was?

Um, I so when from when I was very little, even like when I was four, he, uh, my dad and my uncle would be speaking at Scientology events and I would like be like, it's me. Hi, like wave to them from the audience. But I didn't really realize that that the ranch, I was probably like maybe seven or eight, and another kid told me, he was like, you know, your uncle is COB. And that's chairman of the board. Yeah. And I was like, what's that? And he was like, it's like very important. He's the boss. And I was like, really? He was like, yes.

Am I rich? He's like, no. It just means you'll be tortured more than everyone for the rest of your life. No, he didn't say that. Oh my God. I was like, Jesus Christ. I got morbid fast. How close, like how high did, was your dad like in ranking? Was, was he like his number two or three or something like that? No, but in terms of all of Scientology, he was in international management and had a very important post. So high up. Yes. Yeah. But not in the same organization as my uncle. Did you really have any interactions with your uncle when you were young? Yeah, I definitely did. Yeah. But they weren't in a work capacity. They were like in an uncle capacity. So I didn't work with him or anything like that. Like if I was on the international base, like sometimes we would go there to do study or sometimes we would go there to help and like help make the food or help on other projects. Like for a while we helped make the e-meters that you guys were talking about the other day. We were like part of their production line.

This is like the prisons making the fucking car tags and stuff, but they got you making E-meters. Yeah, except making E-meters was at least done in like a nice air-conditioned environment. That's good. Where the work that we did at the ranch was like digging trenches, so the E-meter thing was like fun in comparison. If we're going to have slaves, we need AC. Exactly.

All right, that's our middle ground right here. It's like Santa's elves. If we're going to have slaves, we need AC. Exactly. All right. That's our middle ground right here. Like Santa's elves. All the children lined up making the toys. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. But like when I would be walking around there, he would like just sometimes like pick me up on his motorcycle and like take me to his office. And I would like pet his dogs.

And then mostly I would chat with Shelly and they would like take silly photos of me like at his desk on the phone as if I was like running the world or something and so he was nice to me when I was a kid. Did he ever like have after you had that conversation with that kid who told you who he was did he ever have any conversations with you where you asked him about that? Or he talked about the business Scientology when you were younger? I didn't have any conversations with him about that specifically, no. But I remember like one time when he was coming out to the ranch and it was like to do an inspection and we were all supposed to prepare. We did this type of cleaning that was called white glove where we had to clean everything and dust everything so well that someone, you know, if they were wearing a white glove, they would touch it and it wouldn't have any marks on it. So we were like doing that in preparation for him to come out and visit.

And like there was this rumor that he could like walk into a room and put his hand on the wall and just feel it and he would know he'd be like he would know if the room was dirty i don't know whatever it was just like some kids lore thing oh my god but so when he was coming out they were like okay jenna when he comes um when he arrives you have to walk up to him and be like hi sir would you like some lemonade and lemonade and like be carrying the lemonade or whatever? And then so I remember I did that and he was like, no, thank you. And he was like, and you don't have to call me, sir. I'm your uncle. So I think that like when I was at that young age, you know, he was uncomfortable with me having to call him sir.

But later, I definitely did. Oh, so that changed eventually. Yes, for sure. Yeah. And so some of the times when I was in his office or talking to Shelly, he would just like, asked me little questions about like, other people in management, but I was never part of any of his decisions or anything like that. He would just like, gossip or chat about it or whatever. But I would see him interacting with other executives and I could see that they were afraid of him. And when I was young –

How did you know that? Like just seeing fear on their face or other things? Yeah, like I could see how he would talk to them and I could see them being like – you know, he kind of had like a dominating personality. And sometimes I would be taken out of the room and I knew it was so that he could yell at them um like they called it a severe reality adjustment SRA but it was like oh you're a kid go out of the room but I was like well we yell at each other all the time at the ranch everyone yells at us so it was like it was almost like they thought i was a child and i was but i was like oh

god i already know about all this you guys so it wasn't but again like that's your only reality so it's not like it's percolating yet they're like oh this is this is not how things are supposed to be done you're just thinking this is the order of business of the world like people like this are in charge of things other people are afraid of them this is the order of business of the world. Like people like this are in charge of things. Other people are afraid of them. This happens to be my family and this is the organization I'm a part of and that's just what it is. Right, exactly. Yeah, I think when you're a kid, you start with taking in everything and then as you get older, you start kind of judging it and seeing the contradictions.

But at this point, I was just like you know taking information in did you ever like because you were talking about how david would come over and pick you up sometimes take you over his place with shelly but did you ever see like extended interactions between your parents and your aunt and uncle as well like were they ever really together in front of you yeah like so um like at certain events, like celebrations or whatever, we would sit at the same table with them or during Christmas, like, you know, the staff would get a day off and we were usually like in a house with them up in the mountains, like in big bear, that's like the closest, like snowy area to where we were at in California. And so, yeah.

And my parents would act afraid of them, like would sort of like be on eggshells or of him. And it was obvious because sometimes I would say things to him and later they'd be like, don't say that. It's a reflection on us. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. like don't say that oh and so reflection on us yeah exactly yeah and they would do things like be like go say thank you to your uncle dave for this gift and write a nice letter let's write it together so i could kind of see that they were like a little bit like on eggshells and they kind

of cared a lot about what he thought and i knew he was important i mean at certain celebrations they would have at the base i mean like like people were bringing him food everyone was afraid of him all right summer's over i know you missed the beach bars but you're getting back into the routine and what you don't want to do is let your fitness goals fall by the wayside and the number one way that happens is if you don't focus on what you're putting in your mouth. But fear not, because that's why Factor's here, with their no prep, no mess meals. Factor has a menu full of chef-crafted meals like Calorie Smart, Protein Plus, and Keto. Factor's fresh, never frozen meals are dietician approved and ready to eat in just two minutes. So no matter how busy you are, you'll always have time to enjoy nutritious, great tasting meals. Make today the day you kickstart a new healthy

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different menu preferences that Factor has, such as managing calories, maximizing protein intake, avoiding meat, or simply eating well-balanced. So head on over to factormeals.com slash julian50 and use code JULIAN50 at checkout to get 50% off your first box plus 20% off your next month. That's code JULIAN50 at factormeals.com slash JULIAN50 to get 50% off your first box plus 20% off your next month while your subscription is active. Almost sounds like Michael Corleone a little bit. Sorry, I'll turn you on there. You got a mic right there. Oh, okay. Well, and Jenna's dad is Dave's older brother. So I think it is more interesting to imagine an older brother acting afraid of a younger brother because just the power he wields within the organization and and his ability to determine your fate

right scary scary now what about your grandparents too because like your grandfather who just passed away a few years ago unfortunately he he ended up becoming a huge vocal critic of his own son, which is really like – that whole thing is like almost biblical, like listening to that and how hard – I couldn't fathom that. But when you were growing up, he was in the organization still. So is he at these celebrations at Christmas and stuff as well or – Yeah, he is too. I mean, he was also like, he was just like kind of a loud, like wild and crazy person. That's how I thought of him. But yeah, I mean, I wasn't super close with him.

His wife, Becky, I guess I spent more time talking with her. He was just so loud and like that I would be embarrassed to be around him. But I don't mean that in a bad way. I just mean like, I don't know. I was just, I was shy. So yeah, but he was definitely around and like being loud and crazy. So him and my grandma weren't together. She wasn't in the Sea Org.

So later on when I moved to Florida as part of, you know, Scientology stuff, she was there and me and her were more close. So when you were growing up, like you knew he was your grandfather though, right? Oh, definitely. Yeah. You were very aware of who he was. Yeah. And when he would see me, he would hug me. He would send me like $5 at Christmas or my birthday or something like that. Scientology uses real money.

Who knew? It's just like, you know, I try to imagine it, but when we say family or something like that, the way that I know what a family is just from being born and the way that you know what a family is are two very different things, right? Like you don't, as you've already laid out here, you don't have real, true, prolonged interaction with these people, but you know who they are. So I actually don't want to answer this question for you, but like when you were a child, you said you really look forward to your parents coming back and stuff you at least knew who your grandfather was you knew who your uncle was would you describe yourself as like feeling love for them um I definitely did for my mom and my dad because when I was really little I think that that's like programmed in you know like I really needed them and I just always wanted to be with them.

And I think that like the fact that I wasn't made that even stronger. But I guess so with my parents, I did. But how you describe family otherwise, like it kind of isn't a thing for me. Like I knew Dave was my uncle. I knew Shelly was my aunt. I knew my grandpa was my grandpa, but it was like this weird thing because we were also working every day at the ranch and we were told that we were adults in small bodies. You were told you were adults in small bodies? Well, we knew that. So in Scientology, they believe that you are a thetan,

which is a spiritual being. You're not your body. And you're a spiritual being who has lived for billions of years. And just because this body that you happen to have at this time is young, you are actually not. And so, you know, we did not think of ourselves as kids. And so, and also, you know, your family isn't really your family. You're just another, they're just another Thetan. So it was kind of confusing. Like, it was like, on one hand, people saw me as part of this family, but I, I don't know. It's not like I hung out with them all the time. The people who I hung out with all the time are other kids at the ranch, but people sort of saw me in this way. But then at the same time, they're saying that family is nothing. I was just confusing.

Of course. That's just unfathomable but like you felt you obviously felt that as you just said with your parents did you feel it in return from them do you think that not after they ended up

getting out of Scientology and everything but while they're in and you're a kid did you feel like they loved you or was there a little bit of a almost like barrier between you when you were with them? So with my dad, I did feel that way because my mom was regularly away. Like she, her job was to build certain, like do renovations on certain Scientology churches. So she was away at the ship, which was in Curacao. She like did all the renovations on certain Scientology churches. So she was away at the ship, which was in Curacao. She like did all the renovations on that. After that, she did the

Celebrity Center in LA. And after that, she was in Florida. So I didn't see her for six months at a time. And even then it was just once a week where my dad, I at least saw him once a week. He would like make breakfast. He would like write me during the week. I could tell that he wanted to be with me. He wanted to spend time with me and that he was sad that he couldn't spend more time with me. And so I guess I felt, you know, like I wanted to see my parents and I wanted to see them more. And I considered once I graduated from the ranch, I would be able to see them every day. But at some point, probably about when I was 12, I was just like, I don't know, I guess kind of like that urge that you have when you're a little kid, like that sort of didn't control my feelings and needs anymore. And it just, my friends were sort of my family. Those are the people who I lived with. Those are the people who I talk to every day.

Those are the people who I went to if I needed help with anything. They're basically like your brother and sisters. Yeah. Like I didn't live in a house with my parents or anything like that. So I think that probably all changed when I was about 12. The friends you're talking about specifically though, are they like right in your age group? Because you said everyone on the ranch was all different ages. Right, yeah. So it would have been certain ones that were like right in my age group or – Imagine that, like being 12 years old for people out there listening and the people you can go to for advice are like the people your age.

Yeah. That's wild. Right. I'm glad you had them, but still, you know, there's a void there for sure. Right. And what about your siblings? You said they were eight years older than you? Yeah.

So they were eight years older than me. And then by the time, you know, they had graduated to work at the base. So they weren't there. How old are you when you do that when you graduate approximately? So I actually didn't graduate I wound up moving to Florida away from my my brothers and my parents and was just there by myself. How old were you when you did that? I was 12. And what what precipitated that like you doing that? So I had been there once or twice to visit my mom before. And basically we were all told that at the ranch we had to become auditors, which is kind of like a Scientology counselor.

And that's a lot of training that goes into that, like years. And so they sent me to Florida to do that training because that's supposed to be the best training in the world. So similar to what Aaron got sent down there to do effectively, but then the narrative there changed. You ended up doing something else. Got it. Yeah, we actually met on an earlier visit when I was probably like 9,

and he was like maybe 13, or was 10 and he was 13. So we were on the same course together at one point. So you guys have known each other for a very long time then? Yeah. Yeah. And you were- And then when I got married in the Sea Org, when I got married in the Sea Org, she and her husband in the Sea Org were at our wedding. Yeah. The small world.

Very small world. We'll get to that. So you go to Florida when you're 12 and how long were you there for? I was there until I was about 16 and a half. So that's like four, four and a half years of learning to be an auditor. Yes. And then did you become an auditor? So just in the time that I was there, I, um, my job changed my training that what they wanted me to train for changed. So, um, yeah, I was trained to use the e-meter and, but I had a couple different jobs, but I was not yet trained to be an auditor. Okay. And for people who didn't hear Aaron's podcast, that's going to come out right before this one, just real quickly, what is the e-meter so that they understand that?

So the e-meter is kind of like a lie detector looking device where there's like the auditor and then the person that they're auditing. And the person they're auditing holds cans and it sends like a tiny electrical current through their body. And you just like are supposed to interpret reactions from their mind through the e-meter. Real quick, just to go back for a second, because I want to make sure I understand context. When you're at the ranch until age 12, you said you left before graduating. First question, your brothers who graduated, how old were they when they were able to leave after actually graduating? I think that they were probably like 16 or something like that.

But so when I went to Florida, it was actually essentially treated like a graduation. Like I was now in the Sea Org. Yeah. Yeah. So when you're going through with the teacher up front and everything and they're having you read stuff they're having you read a lot of scientology stuff as well but did you feel like any more basic core american school skills like math and you know english and stuff like that were you know you were getting taught any of that or was it more just really Scientology based? At the ranch? Yeah. So they basically just taught. So in the afternoon, we did like, you know, regular studies, like regular schooling. And

then in the evening until like 930 at night, we did Scientology studies. So – but with like the regular educational studies, they were not teaching us anything. There were no grades. We were self – we were teaching ourselves. And basically it was just focused on literacy, like writing well, vocabulary, reading, and like basic math. But there wasn't like social studies or just science or anything like that. They would let us do a few research projects, but it didn't even tell us what to read. It was like, go find what you're interested in in the encyclopedia and write an essay about it. So yeah, it just wasn't considered something that we would need in order to be Sea Org members and it was always assumed that we would be Sea Org members.

It was predetermined. Like, you know, I even signed my billion-year contract when I was seven years old. When you were seven, you signed the billion-year contract. Yeah, yeah. So we were all – we were cadets and we were like – we were going to be Sea Org members. That was always the plan. See, why is something like that? That seems blatantly illegal to me.

Like I could take that into any court and say, I know you guys are considering this a religion, but like this is taking advantage of a child. Why don't we see cases like that get made in U.S. court? I mean, in this exact case, like a billion year contract would probably just be seen as a pretend silly thing because it's ridiculous. So it's not like really something they could hold us to, but I didn't know that, you know, I was just like,

and I was like, of course my parents worked there. Of course. I mean, I want to do this for a billion years. At seven? Yes. I was coloring at seven. I mean, that was like, you know, that was the upward mobility of my capabilities at that time. And you're signing billion year contracts. Yeah. That then you're starting to follow through at age 12 effectively. Right. I mean, we were even doing it there. I mean, even at the ranch, we were all organized into different groups in different units. We had gatherings several times a day. We would stand in lines. We would like do a report, like unit one report. And it was like

all president accounted for. And we had jobs like that we would do even before we did the labor. Like I was like for a little bit, I was like the medical officer. The medical officer. Yeah, but I didn't like do stitches or anything like that. But I was responsible for like handing out vitamins. And I was supposed to ask everyone every day if they had any illness. If they had like a rash, I would give them the cream for it. And if people were sick, I was supposed to bring them food because they would be put in isolation.

So I would bring food to that room during mealtimes. I would take their temperatures and write it down and everything like that. So that was before we even did all the upgrades during the day, which we did for 35 hours a week. And then we did schooling in the afternoon. And then in the evening, we did Scientology studies. Did you have any downtime whatsoever for yourself? No, we had like, I mean, we had like a 15 minute break, you know, during school time. Yeah. But it was like run to the canteen and pay for your snacks out of your $5 that you made that week. And yeah. And then go back to course can't say Scientology

doesn't teach discipline I'll get I'll give them that there's definitely a lot of discipline there but legal discipline so the the other thing I was forgetting in there was your brothers they were eight years older and they had graduated by the time you were 11 12 up in there but when you were younger did did you have a lot of interaction with them and a good relationship? What was that like? So my brothers are twins and they are – but they're – like my mom is – they're my half brothers. So my mom is their mom and their dad is another guy who was in the Sea Org. And so when they were young, like before I was born, it was somehow decided that my mom would take one of my brothers and the dad would

take the other brother. And so I only grew up with one of them as being like my brother. So they were like separated when they were little, But then they came back together later on when my parents rejoined the Sea Org. So like – so one of them was like my brother and he – so like I mean we had like – he was my older brother. Like he would kind of tease me but I also – but because he was at the ranch i at like i i think i kind of looked at him as a parental figure i mean he may not have been aware of this though but i would but um but he was also eight years older than me so yeah it's like yeah i mean you're looking for anything to fill that role at that point and he's that significantly older compared to everything else you're dealing with right exactly yeah and he and like sometimes when i was like crying or something like that he would would like make me feel better. And then, you know, sometimes on other

days he would torture me. So just the usual. What the brothers do. But what about like, how does Scientology, like what kinds of things would make you cry? I mean, you're a kid, things make you cry, but I'm thinking of this differently because you're in a cult that's like controlling everything you do. Right. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a good question because for the most part, like when I was a kid, I knew and honestly, I still am trying to get over knowing this. Actually, I'm doing pretty good at it. But like I was like, don't cry because it does nothing.

Like all you're you're still going to have to do what you're supposed to do anyways. It doesn't work. You just get in trouble. But there were a few times when I was just like, well, I can't stop myself from crying or getting upset. But it was, I don't know, it would just be something like I would get in trouble for, like stupid things, like asking my friend to help me on my math. And you're not allowed to talk in the course room. And I needed help on something. I needed her're not allowed to talk in the course room but like and i needed help on something i needed her to explain something to me but that's like considered terrible to have someone explain something to you you have to find the word you don't understand and we would get

screamed at like i'm not a teacher would scream at you yeah across the whole classroom that's not an exaggeration that's how we were talked to all the time like it wasn't like you guys please stop talking it was like jenna shut the fuck up and like we like we would get sent to like the ethics office and like we would even get demoted for something as simple as talking in the classroom you know so just like something like that, or like if you were late for a muster, that's what the gathering meetings were called. You'd get brought up in front of the group and like, just like kind of embarrassed for a period of time. If you were late, they would dump like a bucket of ice water over your head. Like it was like a takeaway from when the Sea Org

was on a boat and they would throw people overboard and so that was us being thrown overboard was like being dumped with a bucket of ice water they throw people overboard yeah right that's nice I'm just trying to picture that teacher we were talking about and then suddenly being like what the fuck like it's it's just like you know your kids we, when we're reading facial expressions, especially women more than guys, more than ever when we are young kids and developing because we're trying to understand what our surroundings are. And this becomes the baseline of how you think human behavior is. I mean, you're literally seeing like controlled robotic bipolarism in front of you at all times. That's wild.

Yeah. I mean, that's such a good way of putting it. That's exactly what it is. And I think like you just like learn to like be a chameleon because you're always trying to predict someone's behavior. And so you're just like, okay, who do I need to be in this exact second in order to survive? And as a result, you don't learn to be yourself. You know nothing about yourself. You don't have time to like do art. You don't have time to be like, what am I interested in? Because who cares? You're just going to be a Sea Org member. Who cares what you're interested in? In fact, you're probably better off never figuring it out so that you don't have to miss it. You know, and you're also kind of like never really alone. You live in a dorm with like

eight other people connected by a bathroom with eight other kids. Are there decorations on the wall or is it just like a blank, almost like a prison cell kind of setup? So it's not a prison cell, but there's not decorations. We all had uniform like beds and dressers. And there is a picture of elron hubbard in every room and like a quote from him it's like adolf hitler yeah so we have his picture in every room oh really yeah like in nazi germany like you'd have to it was highly looked down upon maybe we can look this up to make sure i'm not fucking this up alessi but it was highly looked down upon to not

have the leader the fuhrer on on your wall in some form of picture like jesus if you will so that's the same thing yeah totally yeah so we weren't allowed to have our own things out and our dorms would be inspected every single day for cleanliness and like there was like a system like where if you if your birthing flunked inspection once you would like kind of get a warning and the third time it flunked you would get sent to pig's birthing to what it was called pig's birthing so it's like basically like a like like so like my friend was once sent to live in this like unrenovated sort of dilapidated house and on the second floor and there are like bats in there and stuff.

So, I mean, most people were like, like our room would get up early so that we never had to be sent to pigs birthing. Like I was never sent there, but it's like a, it's something, it's a policy written by L. Ron Hubbard, the birthing chits. And it's, if you fail this many times, these are, these are the punishments. To kids too. you fail this many times, these are the punishments. Oof. To kids, too. Yeah.

Everything that we did was, like, so regimented and strict. We each had our own job. We had our own statistic. We had to mark our statistic on the graph every day. Your own statistic? Yeah. So, like, so my statistic as the medical officer was, was how many kids were well. So ironically, it's something I'm not even really in control of. Like I could try to like give people as many vitamins as possible. You're feeling good today. You understand me? God damn it. how it became that's how it kind of was like because if you wanted to get the reward at the

end of the week which was sometimes just like watching a movie and having popcorn then you'd be like do you have any sickness today and they'd be like oh well this i'd be like but are you sure like are you feeling like you yeah you have to have your statistic be up otherwise you can't get that reward um but like other times when I had another job, which was just like a groundskeeper, it's like the number of square feet that pass inspection as far as cleanliness and upgrades. And it has to increase each week for your statistic to be up. And we had to calculate that every day after we woke up. We had like three different cleaning stations a day. We had assigned duties if there was ever an intruder, a fire, or anything like that.

We just had so many things that we had to do all day, all the time. How many hours a night did you sleep? Well, we went to – so lights out was at 9.30 and we woke up at 6.30 a.m. So they have you sleeping at least. Yeah. That's nice of them. Yeah, yeah. But what was the – like you started maybe to kind of answer a question I was going to have because it kind of surprised me when you said there might be a movie and popcorn at the end of the week because I was going to ask you.

You had mentioned a few minutes ago like, oh, we couldn't do art and stuff. Like did you know what art was did did you have a concept of music i would imagine maybe you did if they're showing you movies like what what kind of what kind of movies would they have in there even i mean i think it was just like any movie for the most part music we did listen to the radio we a lot of times when we were working, we listened to music. So there is actually quite a lot of music. But like sometimes like certain radio stations we weren't allowed to listen to because they once spoke about L. Ron Hubbard or something like that.

Was that Howard Stern? No. What's the one in L.A. called? Oh, K-Rock. Oh, yeah oh yeah yeah that's like a big station yeah that was banned for a while yeah nice yeah but did you like did you have favorite music artists or whatever it was just like cool background noise i definitely had favorite music artists i would get made fun of because it was like mariah carey and like boys II Men it wasn't it wasn't cool why are people making fun of that they're fire come on because I guess some of them would like listen to punk music but I remember like the Sex Pistols were banned because Ellen Hubbard like wrote a policy about them once and how they were a bad

influence so they weren't allowed to listen to them, which was just fine because they kind of, they kind of suck. So like if their song went to come on with like one of the teachers, like if it's coming on the radio, one of the teachers run to the radio and like change the station? Well, more like if you had a CD of theirs, it would get taken away. Oh, so you did have, you had your own personal CDs and like Walkmans and stuff. Yeah, we did have, I had that.

Not everyone did, but like. But you were allowed to. Right. So like, so one of the things me and my dad would do on Sunday mornings, because I was only allowed to see him on Sunday morning is we would go to the CD shop and I would use like some of my pay and he would use some of his pay and we would get CDs because we both liked music. This is like when you're like 10 years old, that kind of thing? Yeah, like between when I was 6 and 12.

So you're using some of your money to buy CDs. Dad's not buying your CDs there. He's using some of his money too because I would have to save up for like four weeks, which I use all my money on like buying snacks in the canteen. So I guess buying my snacks yeah yeah what was the what was the food like in there could you eat when you wanted or like was that very regimented too so we absolutely could not eat when we wanted we had to eat during meals and if you stole food from the refrigerator which people did sometimes you would be assigned a lower condition which is just basically there's certain like you would basically be required to make amends and

then and then you would sort of be like you would have to make amends during like your own time which was basically only your meal time like you would literally have to be like i clean this whole room up even though it's like do something that's outside of your regular job and then you would have to like get everyone in the group to sign a piece of paper that said you were allowed to be out of your lower condition or you'd made enough amends in order to be out of that lower condition or to stop having to make amends that's a form of conditioning right there. I mean, making you do that. Holy shit.

Yeah. And what, we got off it, but like what kind of movies would be back there when you go to see something? Would it be like a regular full Hollywood movie or? Yeah, it was just like mostly regular movies I'm trying to remember. I mean, so when we would go home on Saturday evening and then we would see our parents on Sunday morning. And by the way, we would – sorry, by home, I mean when we would go to our parents' apartments.

Yeah. Like we would watch – like, I mean, I remember my brothers would watch Top Gun or my – one of my brothers was super into Steven Seagal. Yeah. Yeah. Or we would watch Ace Ventura a lot okay and i would try i would want to watch the little mermaid and they like still make fun of me because they're traumatized from watching the mermaid too much a little girl wants to watch the little mermaid what a shocker yeah yeah so just that kind of thing so they're like that's that's the thing like there's

there's little bits of normalcy here and there like they sprinkle in just enough almost to like fill the minimal amount of dopamine you need to keep going and then the rest of your life they make this hell and try to tell you it's not. Right. Exactly. Yeah. So we were sort of told that if that because we were given a place to sleep and we were being given food, that if we didn't do our jobs and give back, if we didn't give exchange for what we were being given, then Alvin Hubbard believed you would become a criminal. Yeah. So basically we thought that if we didn't do that, then we would become criminals. Did you learn anything about – I feel like I know the answer to this question but I still got to ask it.

Did you learn anything about like American society or like America as a country and – because you said you didn't have social studies or anything like that. Right. But did you learn about how anything slightly real worked? We had like one course that was like very basic on it. But for me, it was like learning about like the Hunger Games or something. It was like, who cares? Like, blah, blah, blah, whatever.

That has nothing to do with me. So it's not something I use. So it's not something I would retain. So did you think of yourself as an American? Or did you think of yourself as a person that's just put on this earth who's in this thing called Scientology? The second one. Definitely. Yeah. I mean, and especially because they were like in a lot of the places where I was in Scientology, there were Scientologists from all around the world who spoke different languages from different countries.

And so, yeah, being an American was not particularly a thing for me. It just seemed like a worldwide thing. Again, something I can't relate because, like, when we're growing up, by the time you're four or five, you're like, hey, we live in America. Look at the flag. Like, you know, you're at least you know you're a part of you don't really get it yet. Like there's all these other countries and whatever. But, you know, like, oh, I live in a place that this is what it's called and so it becomes a part of your identity right and you never get that you just have an identity of a cult that

your family happens to run which is wild so right i'm sorry were you gonna say something well we weren't i was never in contact with people who were outside of Scientology. And so like ever, I was on the ranch or I was at my parents' apartment or I was on the base. And so we were sort of taught if you went to a regular school that they would like drug you. They had psychiatrists. And we were told like if we ever were in contact with people who weren't Scientologists who we called b****s that we had to like tell them a story. Like we had to be like, oh, I'm a student and I never understood why. So I was always afraid. I never understood why we had to tell them something other than what was true.

And so I was just like kind of afraid to interact with people who weren't Scientologists. And so it kind of creates this bubble where everyone you know is in Scientology or a Sea Org member. And like that was just kind of my whole world. I was kind of afraid of anybody who wasn't. Do you remember like what car your parents drove? So Sea Org members, they drive around, they go and they're in buses. So from their birthing building or where they live, they go in buses from there to where they were or to the base. So they don't have a car or any kind of autonomy like that. So you're not seeing that kind of thing. Well, you only make $50 a week. So how would you pay for insurance or a car payment or a car? My dad actually did

happen to have a car, but I think it was like gifted to him by his sister or something like that. But like even later on, like, you know, when I was married, my husband had a car that his mom had given to him. even just like how do you pay for parking as a seer members it's like just not really feasible but like did you wonder like when you saw cars and stuff like that because you said you went to a cd store you went places like it's not like you never saw real society right like you at least could see it. You're not really in it, but you could see it. Like did you wonder like, damn, I wonder where that comes from or how these people can afford that or whatever? When we went places, my dad talked to people because I was honestly kind of afraid.

Like I didn't know what to say. And sometimes they would try to talk to me and they'd be like, hi, honey, are you in school? And I was like, they're like, what grade are you in? And I was like, shit, shit, shit. Like, what am I supposed to tell them and why? So that's like I even remember when I flew to Florida, like I flew by myself and I was sitting next to this lady who was trying to be really nice to me. But she was like asking me all these questions. And it was so nerve wracking. Like she was like, are you going to Tampa? And I didn't

even really, I was like, no, I'm going to flag. Flag. Yeah. Cause, cause the base in Clearwater is, yeah. So, so I didn't even really know where I was going. And she's like, what's that? And, and you have no concept to even explain it. and i was like what's tampa even though i was going there i just didn't know anything so it was just scary to be around people who weren't psychologists but you're flying alone on a plane who took you to the airport to do that your parents um i think like so they have like an airport run like yeah because they they like send their the inter communications like letters or whatever through like on a plane every day they have a mail pack uh from the different Scientology bases so they have a run to the airport oh they don't use the U.S. Postal Service they

they use their own yeah yeah they do I didn't know that yeah so they just like have a gopher like like a cartel coyote if you will yeah with a male with a mailbag wearing a mailman uniform on a plane from florida la well i think they just like put a box on the plane they just deliver it and yeah at every scientology base they have that yeah so then they can read the mail ahead of time too and spy on people i would imagine yeah they do like like when i was in florida they had us sign a paper that was giving permission to have our mail checked and for a small period of time i worked in the department that actually opened mail what was that like um so i was just in the office when they were doing it i didn't read the mail but it would

be like so they were looking for people outside of Scientology who were externally influencing you, who were like, I don't know, like sending you stuff or trying to make it look like, or saying bad things about Scientology or were sending you things from the outside world that would make you possibly want to leave or something like that. So you're sitting in the office, but can you, would you like see the guys who were opening this up? Oh yeah, and they would read it out. Like they'd be like, oh my God, her aunt said this. Yeah.

And what would happen to someone if, like I would imagine you were there in a situation where maybe a Scientologist said something very wrong. Like how, what was the chain of command like at that point? And what kind of punishments did, did you even hear about punishments that might happen? Yeah. So like if like, you know, just for example, there's this one gal when I was in Florida and her relative from Germany, like wrote something bad about Scientology in the letter. So basically she would get pulled in to the

department that I was working in and she would basically be asked to, she would either have to handle this individual and make them like good with Scientology without, you know, getting too far into the weeds with it because she's not allowed to really debate Scientology with them. She'd have to handle them to stop saying anything or she would have to disconnect from them. Those are the two options. And other like, so they either stopped doing that or they would not be allowed to write her anymore. She would have to tell them, I no longer want to be in contact with you. Do you remember the first time you learned about what disconnection was? Hmm.

I don't know if I remember. I mean, so there were a few kids at the ranch who weren't, like, their father or something like that wasn't, like, they had been declared a suppressive person. A suppressive person. Yeah. So that's somebody who basically like speaks publicly about Scientology in a negative way. So like I knew like we never saw their dad. And I knew that their dad had been declared a suppressive person. So I guess that would be the first time I heard about disconnection. Is there any understanding of like what that, how serious that, because I mean, it's such a cold word too for something that's so, I mean, it's horrible in every way. Like, did you have any feeling of that or you just kind of knew what it was like oh okay you can't someone decides to leave and speak publicly you just can't be around them anymore

but you didn't like imagine what it would be like if you were in those shoes or something i guess um i it was just like considered part of life i mean we already saw our parents so infrequently so like from when i was 12 until I was 16, I maybe saw each of my parents once for a few hours. They were 3,000 miles away. So while I could still write to them, it's just like the disconnection was seen as something that was just part of the deal. Like if they were talking badly about Scientology, then we just couldn't be in contact with them. And we just always had to put Scientology then then we just couldn't be in contact with them and we just always had to put Scientology first and um yeah it was just totally normal to be honest so for so for four years

you essentially don't see your parents you don't see your brothers either right yeah well so one of my one of my brothers wound up in Clearwater when I was there. He was on because he had gotten into trouble and he was on what Aaron was describing yesterday as the Rehabilitation Project Force, the RPF. What did he what had he done? He basically like had slept with another girl his age, but that's and they weren't married. that's like not allowed in the c-org so they don't want premarital sex yeah not at all that's like one of the worst things you can do so the rpf basically you wear all black you have to run everywhere you go people aren't allowed to talk to to you you aren't allowed to speak unless spoken to. You basically have to do five hours of interrogation a day to find out all the bad things that you've done. You actually have to do a special kind of

it where you have to find the evil purposes that you had that were behind the bad things that you did. And then you do like extremely heavy labor and that sort of thing and it usually takes years so my brother was assigned to that while I was in Florida and he came to Florida and so he was on that program so I did see him and then from there he left the Sea Org and I was like sort of supposed to handle him to not leave um for a few months before he actually wound up leaving. What do you mean handle him? So my brother leaving was kind of considered by the most senior group in Scientology as something that would be bad PR for my family.

Because they're right. Right. So they wanted me to talk to him and like sort of like beg him to stay. And so for me, it was the only opportunity I could get to talk to my brother. Did you ever see him when he was in this black uniform running around? I would see him running by. But you can't talk to him. So I can talk to him, but he couldn't originate communication to me. Did you try to originate communication at all? All the time. I would talk to him, but he couldn't originate communication to me. Did you try to originate communication at all?

All the time. I would talk to him. Anytime I saw him, I like went through all these hoops to like get to be close to where he was. Like he was doing this one thing called the purification rundown. I had heard that. So I like went through all these hoops and told kind of all these lies so I could get onto that auditing procedure myself only to find out that he wasn't on the same schedule as me. So I was doing all sorts of things so I could talk to my brother. But I also like when I saw him, like it would be in front of people and it's like there wasn't time. He was going somewhere. He would be unaccounted for.

So it was just like quick things i could say to him when he ran by and so when i was asked to handle him to stay it was like i could talk to him for like a half an hour at least and i mean i mean i didn't they didn't it's something they're not even supposed to do like they would never task somebody with convincing somebody else to stay in Scientology or the Sea Org. But I guess they considered it important enough in this instance that they would do that. But in the end, all that kind of wound up happening was that that was kind of the first time I thought about not being there. Like maybe it would be nice or even maybe that would be, maybe it would be good for him to

not have to be here because he obviously doesn't like it what are you like 14 15 when this is happening yeah i was 14 and he was about like 22 at this time so at first i would just be like i don't want you to leave i will never see you again and and then he was um and then he finally was like i don't want to talk about that anymore like i'm gonna go i'm gonna leave and so then we would just like chat but i would pretend like i was trying to convince him to leave and so then he finally wound up leaving how did he do that? I mean, they let him go. They realized that.

He just walked off. They arranged for him to stay with a certain family. And yeah, I guess they figured that he was going to be more trouble. But he was still going to be a Scientologist, but not in the Sea Org. Yeah. So they, yeah, I guess they realized that they just couldn't convince him to stay. And so they put him with a Scientology family. And, yeah.

So you've always been picky about your produce. But now you find yourself checking every label to make sure it's Canadian. So be it. At Sobeys, we always pick guaranteed fresh Canadian produce first. Restrictions apply. See in-store or online for details. So I just, like, I remember, like, being really sad when he was leaving because I still, like, he was still the one person in my family that on some level I had lived with,

even though we didn't live in the same room for a while. He was the person who I saw every day. At least I didn't see my parents every day. And I really like, you know, had looked up to him and I was really sad that he left. I remember I gave him like my CD player and all this. But then, you know, I didn't even know where he was after that. I didn't know how to get a hold of him. So even though he's still in Scientology, I'll get to that in a minute, because he's leaving the Sea Org and because your family is who you are, you're essentially disconnected from him if he leaves.

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So then a few years later, a sister of somebody who worked in Clearwater who was in the Sea Org, they like knew where my brother was. And then so I like had, I secretly talked to her and she gave me his number. And I like, like, so you can't, you can't make a phone call when you're there. Like, oh, you have to have a code in order to call outside, which you would, could only get if it was part of your job. This is the late nineties right now, right? Yeah.

So it's not like you have cell phones and there's no landlines you're saying well there were landlines but they were like normal internal phones and you had to enter a code on it in order to get like outside of their internal phone lines in order to just have have it be a regular landline were you thinking that could be tapped if you did that too well Well, so I borrowed somebody's code that you're not supposed to because they track it. Like they can see. Oh, it's not like a universal code. No, it's a different one that's assigned to a person who might need to use it for their job.

Like if their job is like ordering toilet paper for the whole base, then they have permission to place like to have this code but they track every number that is called from that code so they know who to who it goes back to you know they track it on the phone bill or whatever so i like use that to call my brother and but you know by the time like it was maybe like a year after he had left and by that time he was just like pissed off at the world he was like i don't have a sister and he was like you're there with with ronnie and biddy who are our parents and you know you guys are all happy together and i was like what the fuck i haven't like I haven't seen them in years. Like, I'm in Florida, they're in California. So yeah, after, I mean, I didn't speak to him for many years after that. And that's the one commonality in a way from your life. Like the one thing that was always

there most for the most part, at least in the background that you now don't have. And you're, you're on an island by yourself. Your parents aren't around. Your grandparents aren't around. Your brother's now gone. You can't talk to him. If he left the Sea Org, though, and stayed a Scientologist, I'm just curious. When you were having the conversations before he left the Sea Org, Did he mention or hint at, you know, that he had had an opportunity to explore some

realities of the outside world during those conversations? I mean, he was still young. So he was like telling me that he like wanted to be an actor or comedian or something like that. And just like, he didn't really seem to believe in Scientology. Oh, so, so when my, so when I, like, before I was two, he was like 10 at that point. So he had actually had, like, he went to school and he was like in the outside regular world. And I think even since that time, he never wanted to be there. He had said it for years. I just didn't know that he was saying that the whole time. Because he knew.

Right. Yeah, yeah. So I almost think it's worse for somebody who has a taste of the regular world. Yes. And then has this big change into something that's completely different much more strict and all the things that go with that where if it's all you know that's that's your normal i mean good for him for having an understanding of that because like we were hearing from aaron yesterday too like you get groomed into it when you're a kid even if you're in the real world so

you you drink the kool-aid you know you're taught from your parents or whatever. So your brother somehow was able to at least be like, damn, I like playing baseball or something like that. Like actually feel his emotions, which that's got to be really hard to do in that type of position. So good for him. Well, it's almost harder to feel your emotions though. Like that's like torture. Yeah. And he wanted to leave since he was like, what, 10 years old? So we're talking about when he's 22. So basically like that entire time wanting to leave and not being able to.

Wow. That's like your whole childhood. He must have felt like he had a prison sentence that he didn't know when it ended. Right. Yeah. I think so. Yeah. But he still doesn't leave all the way when he leaves the Sea Org.

He still says he's a Scientologist. Was that just to like because he was afraid of the alternative, meaning like in name only? Or did he actually still, you think, believe in some of the concepts of Scientology? I think he believed in some of the concepts of Scientology? I think he believed in some of them, but in the end, if you leave Scientology, you will be declared a suppressive person, which sounds like, okay, who cares? But actually, everyone who you've ever known your entire life can now no longer speak to you. And imagine growing up somewhere where you have no education so most Scientologists work for other Scientologists so how's he going to get a job without an education without knowing anybody

you can never speak to anyone in your family he wouldn't have been able to speak to his own twin brother and like you know so where do you go at that point you know so it's it's not just this label of disconnection or suppressive person you you lose everything but he's at least losing in his situation a big piece of that because he left the sea organ because of who he is so you he really isn't able to talk to his family but he's at least able still to converse with a lot of people he knew from scientology maybe right and he's allowed to get opportunities from other Scientologists. Yeah. Which you need, like, you know, you don't have any credit.

You don't have any money. So, yeah. So having those connections is everything. So people in Scientology, like, does Grant Cardone carry a credit card? Right? Like, he has to. Well, so it's different. He didn't grow up in Scientology, like, does Grant Cardone carry a credit card? Right? Like, he has to. Well, so it's different. He didn't grow up in Scientology.

He grew up in the regular world. So that's why sometimes my experience is maybe different than his. Right. And different, like, my experience is obviously different than Tom Cruise's. But, like, no, I had no credit card. And so when you grow up there in the Sea Org as a cadet, it's like if you leave, you're losing everything. Now, if you join as a 30 year old and you've lived in the regular world and then you decide to leave, then you have whatever you had before that, maybe minus a few years of connections. So like a Leo Remini or a Danny Masterson who weren't in the Sea Org, but they were in it when they were a kid. Exactly. They have access to the real world in a way that you don't. Right.

So Danny Masterson grew up in a house with his family, with a mom and a dad, went to school. So it's just just completely different experience you ever seen those videos they're actually like really cool but the prank videos sometimes on tiktok where the family like the parents and older brothers and sisters will put the little kid under a blanket and when they lift it they act like they can't see them and they're like holy shit he's gone and the kid's like wait what and he's like going up teaching them and trying to talk and they don't see him or like maybe they feel him like holy shit and then the kid starts freaking out because like they start crying every time it's like i'm invisible i can't be seen It's like actually really cruel. But like I almost – it's a similar – when I picture it, it's a similar type thing to the people like in this case your brother who now that's kind of like – like if you pass them on the street, you might look at them and be like, but you got to keep it moving or a thousand yards staring and pretend you didn't see them.

Yeah. That must – it's like a ghost. Yeah. Yeah. And that's how it is now. So like when I first started speaking out about Scientology, everyone who I knew and my entire life, my parents were already out by this point and I left with my ex-husband. So it's not like I had nobody.

But if I didn't have that, then I would have been fucked. Alone. Yeah. Yeah. And, but everyone who I ever knew my whole life everyone who i grew up with i they don't speak to me they still don't like so it's just like especially if you grew up without a family like that's a huge deal oh yeah everything you knew yeah all right so your brother leaves gets put with this other Scientology family. You're 15 years old, something like that at this time.

Yeah. And you said you were on, you were at flag training from 12 to 16. Right. Yeah. But then at some point I had like, I wasn't training anymore. I was like, I was just like, I had a job, which was to run programs into the hotels that were there. So like, you know, making sure the rooms got cleaned in time and making sure that... The hotels?

So like in Florida, where they deliver Scientology services to the public, they have hotels there where the public stay while they're getting services. And so that, you know, they make money from that for them paying for the hotels and buying food there. So that's its own organization is the one that takes care of the buildings and takes care of the gardens and takes care of the hotel rooms and maids and that sort of thing. So I, so my job was to like, like if there was an area of that, that wasn't functioning well, I would have certain steps that I was supposed to do to get it back on track. And this is – I would imagine this is like a part of the whole real estate empire that Miscavige owns in Tampa – or in Clearwater essentially, right? Right. Yeah, kind of.

Yeah. Sort of. Yeah. Kind of. Yeah. Sort of. Yeah. So later on when I was in Scientology, I actually worked for the part of the organization that acquired the buildings and did designs on them and raised the money for that. And I mean, I just did the designs and I did some of the drawings for the designs, but I worked in that department too. So that's more like part of the real estate empire type thing. So you would draw things. So you had creativity. Yeah, I would. And yeah, so in that office, that's kind of when I first, I drew stuff when I was a kid. When you were very little.

Yeah, but I would just like, yeah. So like sometimes when we would work at the international base, we worked in the food department. And like, so like I would like, there were like little papers that you would put on the table for executives where they would vote for the service. That was someone's statistic. And so I'd like draw pictures on the vote sheet. And like sometimes my uncle and my Aunt Shelly would vote for my art. So, yeah. vote sheet and like sometimes my uncle and my aunt Shelly would vote for my art so yeah so I guess I did like drawing but I didn't really get to do it much like there wasn't downtime but that was a way I could do it at that time yeah there's like there's some sort of like natural creativity at

least that exists in you that you could get in touch with yeah for sure specifically when I worked in that real estate type area we I like I like, you know, we learned things like Photoshop and CAD. Oh, you did. Yeah. And then, so I would do like hand renderings, like of the spaces and things like that. So, so I didn't really know it, but that's kind of like the type of person that I am. And I noticed it at that time because I was like, wow, hours and hours can go by with me working in Photoshop doing the design boards. And it feels like nothing. Like that was the first time that I did something that I kind of enjoyed. So you find your passion a little bit doing that.

Yeah. But then it also kind of got crushed at the same time because every design you do, like, it takes like ages for it to get approved and then it's like so so it's kind of both yeah you said that when your brother left and that process where you had to try to pull him back and that was you said this a little while ago so correct me if i'm wrong but that was the first time where you started to think about potentially what life might look like without Scientology? Was that, were you starting at that point? Cause like you don't have anything, I'm trying to remember, like you don't have anything to base it off of cause you never lived in anything else. But were you resenting being there at that point? Or were you just like,

well, there are other things I'd like to do. And maybe I wouldn't have to, maybe I would have to not be here to do those things. Well, so at that point, I just started out as sort of empathy for him. Like I was like, it's clear that he wants to do these other things. And you know what, I want him to be happy. And, and even though it's bad that he wants to leave the Sea Org, it actually isn't that bad. Like, why is it so bad that he wants to be an actor or that he wants to be a comedian? He is funny. And so that doesn't seem like he's hurting anybody. And there's plenty of other people here that can do the job that he won't do. So that was the first

time I was like, you know, it's not so black and white as they say. It's not, he's not bad because he wants to leave. He just doesn't want to do this. And like, let's be honest, it's not always that much fun. And so, yeah, but I think shortly after that, I started, I became friends with this one kid who was in the credit org at Flag in Florida. And it was run differently there where he so this whole time i was in florida i also couldn't speak to my mom because she was on the rpf at the base but i wasn't allowed to tell anybody that because it was a big secret because she had previously been a really high executive in florida and so it would just be bad PR for my family. So it was like this kind of secret

and this thing that I was kind of upset about all the time but couldn't really do anything about. And so I became friends with this one kid and he would like ask things. Is that on here or there? I wonder if it's mine. No, it's made down. For some reason it rings through my computer.

It's been happening now. That didn't happen for like 200 and some episodes. And now here we are. Sorry about that. No worries. That cut you off. That's okay. So I became friends with this one kid who was in the Kedaro because he was in the classroom with me.

And he would sort of like ask questions like he was like well do you really believe that you're a thetan and i was like i was like yeah i was like i can't believe you just said that and um and he would just say stuff like that all the time and i no one had ever said that before like Like, I was like, yeah, of course. I was like, is anybody watching? Like, you say that. And then I guess it was the, like, and he'd be like, I don't really know if I am. Because so in the cadet org that he grew up in, they weren't automatically slated as Sea Org members. But because the ranch was near the base, it was like we were going to be Sea Org members no matter what.

But for some reason, like we were going to be seerig members no matter what but for some reason like they got to choose and like you know they kind of still lived in rooms with their parents so it was just a different experience and so he would be like do you really think that you're a thetan and i was like i was just like i mean yeah i always i always thought that 100 what you've been taught since you were a baby yeah exactly but i was just so, I mean, yeah, I always thought that 100%. Is that what you've been taught since you were a baby? Yeah, exactly. But I was just so shocked that somebody was questioning that. And it was somebody who I liked and who was like normal.

And then that was the first time that I was kind of like, like he would say things like, you know, you don't seem that happy. Like you guys are just like running around doing your job, but you guys kind of look pissed off all the time and I was like I was like no one ever said that to me before and I was like and then I started thinking things like am I happy do I like this like and um yeah and because I was in a more senior organization when I was there, we were like not allowed to fraternize with people in lower organizations. But many of those people I had known since I was a kid. And so it was like I was always getting in trouble for that. And there was always all this pressure on me because of my name. Like they basically wanted you to act like a snob.

It was part of the rules of the organization that I was in. It's like a caste system. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And if you were like nice to people, you would get in trouble for it. So it's like very confusing. And so I think on some level at that point, I kind of realized like, yeah, I don't, I never really thought about if I wanted to do this.

I never really thought about if I liked it or even if I believe in it. And I think that was the first time I was like, gosh, maybe like I don't, like it was the first time I considered not being there, like if I really enjoyed it. And then, so like he also like had, like his dad lived in Italy and he would sort of tell me about some of his experiences that he had there in the regular world. And that was like it didn't seem so scary when he would tell me those things. And also by this – It didn't seem so scary. Yeah.

Like you know how before I said we were told that like psychiatrists would try to drug you if you went to school? Like it didn't really seem like that was happening to him when he would go and visit his dad. And yeah. And I guess there were also a few other things going on at the same time. Like my grandmother who was not in the Sea Org but was a Scientology public, so she would pay for services. She lived in clear water and if i had a day off which was very like i probably had like i mean in all the four and a half years that i was there i probably had like 10 days off she would pick me up and we would like go eat places and um how would you know you had off if you didn't have phone privileges um i had a pager

so and oh and sometimes i would see her on course like for a little period of time she was on course with me so it was like it was like kind of fun when she was on course with me and um and so like you know i would like go to the movies with her. And my aunt lived in town who also was not in the Seabrook. So actually being around them was kind of the first feeling I had of family. Like, when I had a day off and I told them I was, like, I'm going to have a day off, they would be so excited to pick me up. They would be, like, it was, like, as if I was, like, a celebrity. And it was, like, it was like as if I was like a celebrity and they were, it was like exciting for them. And, and like my grandma would like send me Easter baskets

to the place where I worked. And I never had that before. Like, I mean, I didn't have a tooth fairy, you know, when I had my birthday as a kid, like I wasn't with my parents I was still at the ranch now sometimes on the weekend of the day I would see them they would bring a birthday cake but it wasn't like it wasn't there was like no party or anything like that and so like getting an Easter basket or like getting all these gifts from my grandma or like that was just like the first time I kind of like experienced like family. Well, you mentioned very early in the conversation that you would get together on like Christmas with the family and now you're mentioning that your grandma would send you an Easter basket.

So these are Christian holidays that are being celebrated in some way. Did you ever wonder like what that was? Like, oh, what's Christmas? What's Easter? So for sure but i was like i would have to be like a moron to question it vocally because i was like this is what i'm looking forward to i will not i don't want to cause any trouble there no more christmas for you like i wasn't going to complain i was just like awesome cool yeah and you and you had said you

got really close with your grandma during this time. I see why. Obviously, like she was there and one of the few people there. And like you're looking forward to spending time with her. But did you ever have any deep conversations with her about Scientology itself? So she would occasionally say things to me, like little complaints. Like she would be like, like she would say, like my Aunt Shelley would try to recruit my cousins for the Sea Org. And she'd be like, she's not very nice, you know.

She was mean to your cousin. And I didn't like it. And I would just be like, hmm. Don't talk about Shelley that way. I would just act like she didn't say anything. Or she would like sort of like she had like previous to Scientology she had been a nurse but for some reason they wouldn't let her be a nurse because I guess maybe they thought that it would like have some sort of liability if something went wrong I don't really

know why but she'd be like Dave won't let me be a nurse I don't really know why it's all I want to do is be a nurse or she would just like complain about certain things like, you know, like her exercise program would be run by like the highest level, like the people who work for my uncle. And she was like, well, I just, I don't want them to control what I eat and my exercise because she was like a little bit overweight. So I think it was seen as like bad PR for the family. Well, there was a lot of that. Like I, you know, I had like bad skin when I was a teenager. That's bad PR.

It was. Like literally Shelly told me, she was like, you need to go get your skin treated. Otherwise you're going to have to change your name. And it was already. Oh my God. I mean, at the time i was like fair point but now that's like how brainwashed i was but now as a mom and i have to like i have to put my kid's

face on mine or put like to see it like that because when I look back at it I'm like yeah yeah blah blah I'm fine but I but when I put my kid in my position I get disgusted and pissed off and I can see it for what it is but that's kind of weirdly the only way I really can. Yeah. I mean, again, it's like you're going to spend, I would imagine, like throughout your life, there's always going to be something in there that gets deprogrammed, right? As you see new things that you didn't see as a kid, like could be random little things. And you're like, oh, wait a minute. It could be 30 years later, you know and since you left and you'll be finding things all the time i mean we have that all the time like well just something will happen we'll be like

god i never really like thought that this way of thinking was from scientology and yeah so it's kind of nice when that happens because it's like, you know, I guess on some level it's going to take – I mean I still was there for more time than I've been out. And so – That's crazy. Yeah. So you can't undo all of that in a second. Sometimes it will take just as long for everything to go away as you were in there, you know. Do you know who like the president was as you were in there, you know? Did you know who, like, the president was when you were in there? I did, yeah. Did you know what he was?

Like, what it meant? Not too much, no. I was just like, he's the president. Yeah. I'm just thinking a random question. Like, all these little things I take for granted. No, like, I was totally out of touch with that or anything. Like that just seemed like the fake world and I was in the real world.

Yeah. Who's this George W. guy? God damn it. Why are we going to Iraq? What's Iraq? So when you were 16 and you stopped doing the training, what did they do with you after that? So all of a sudden I was like sort of like taken out of my daily work and I was started being interrogated, which was a regular occurrence for me. I was always interrogated, but I was being interrogated by like the most senior person on the base.

She was in the same organization as my uncle. And I was just getting asked all these questions. And I was like I was on watch day and night. So meaning somebody would sit outside my door to make sure I didn't leave. I didn't try to escape. And I was like in a, so when I wasn't being interrogated, I was scrubbing the bathroom and like, or listening to L. Ron Hubbard lectures that were all about how you have to confess to all the bad things that you've done or else you'll become like a horrible person and go into some – anyways, whatever.

So that would just be playing in the background. Well, I had a period where I would listen to those lectures and then I would be scrubbing the bathroom and then I would be getting interrogated. And then I wasn't allowed to talk to any of my friends. I was moved into a separate room. And it was even to the point where I would eat meals in the bathroom because if my uncle, basically they'd be like, well, if you pass by your uncle, then you will upset him. So you have to basically hide in the bathroom and eat your meals. That wasn't every time, but that was like I would say at least a third of the time.

And I didn't know why until after like a month or two of this, I was randomly brought to LA without saying goodbye to any of my friends or my grandma. And I was like, brought, I was put on a plane. I was told I was going back to the international base, but then I, but it wound up being brought to a building on Hollywood Boulevard. I went to the international base, but it wound up being brought to a building on Hollywood Boulevard. I went to the top floor and then Mike Rinder and Marty Rathbun, who were very high officials in Scientology, I was put in that room and then I waited for like seriously like four hours for them to come into the room. And then when they finally came in, they basically told me that my parents had left the Sea Org and they were living in Mexico and they wanted me to go with them. And I was like leaving now.

They left the Sea Org but not Scientology. Right. And he was like – I was like, well, are they declared suppressive persons? And he was like, no. And I was like, I was like, well, are they declared suppressive persons? And he was like, no, and I was like, be real. And he he's like well we won't be issuing anything but yeah it will basically be the same as being declared like he was like leveling with me and i had dealt with marty over the years because of different things with my mom and whatever and so i think that like on some level he was doing me a favor that's how i thought by being real with me.

And then so like. You're still so young too. Yeah, totally. You're not like 35 years old or something. You're still essentially a kid. Totally, yeah. Yeah, and by the way, all those years that I was in Clearwater, we went to school at the Scientology cadet location for one day a week. And still no grades. so there was like essentially

no schooling yeah yeah so it's not like i was educated on the world or anything around me so to me the idea of going to mexico and going to a public school so for one thing it's like a country where i don't speak the language it's somewhere where i've never been do you know what mexico was i mean i only knew because there was lots of Mexican people who were training in Florida when I was there. And so they would like tell me about their country. And I was always hearing about someone's country and how beautiful they were. Well, because most of them weren't Sea Org members. They were staff members.

So even though they were getting paid nothing, like they at least like maybe had grown up in the regular world a little bit and they had like i don't know they had a chance to see their country i guess like which i unlike me mexicans and science you don't think about that so many mexicans and so many mexicans really largely because they want to come to the United States and you can get a religious visa. So they don't actually believe it. Like we will do the landscaping way. So a lot of them, like maybe not the ones that were in training, but they wound up working for the hotels that I later was running programs to do. But not like Russians, Romanians, Hungarians, Australians, British people, like from all over the world. So at least I gave you a concept that there's, you know, these places out there. Yeah, almost I was like, that was like my only concept.

Yeah, but it's something. Yeah. And it was kind of actually that part of it I later missed when I left Scientology a little bit when I was just like – it was like this feeling that I had friends or new people all around the world. But then I could never talk to or see those people before. I mean, again. So, yeah. But anyways, so yeah, so the idea of going to Mexico with my parents, who I now had maybe only seen once in the last five years, and those five years, like, meaning like those years last forever when you're that age, like five years can go by like in two seconds now that I'm this age. But at that time, that's like everything that's your, that's your whole puberty. That. But at that time, that's like everything.

That's your whole puberty. That's like – it seems like forever. What year is this meeting with Rathbun in L.A.? It is I think at the end of 2000. So this – yeah. So this is when – got it. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So at that point, I was like, well, no, I don't want to leave.

I was like, I'm never going to see any of my friends again. I'm never going to see my grandma. I'm never going to – like I don't want to go. In my mind I would be so behind in school that it would be totally embarrassing. And then they were going to like try to like inject me with drugs. I don't know. And I would not only would – like I would just never be able to see anybody who I knew or cared about again. You had a concept though that you'd be behind in school.

Yes. Yeah. So even though you really hadn't been on the outside, you already understood that the education you had received, big air quotes there, was shit. Yes. Yeah. That's's impressive i'll take it yeah i'll take being behind in school as being impressive yeah no no seriously because like you don't know you've never been in one like what what do you i don't know how i don't think i would ever think that in your position because i i'd assume like my school i'm like well they probably do it different out there but like I learned yeah you know right yeah yeah no that's true yeah so I just thought it would just be like and then it was with my parents who basically at

this point I didn't really know yeah or care too much about like I definitely didn't hate them and Yeah. I was friends with all these people and my job was what it was. And in everyone else's mind, everything I did was bad PR for my family. And it was like this whole narrative always being projected onto me. But I didn't get the benefits of being in this family. I wasn't really losing anything by not being a part of that family. I didn't get anything from it. It was just what everyone else thought when they looked at me because my name was Miscavige. And so, yeah, so my parents, like, I don't know, it just didn't feel like I knew them at that point. And I was like, just another problem that my name is causing for me. Yeah. And it was just like people looked at me in that way, which had nothing to do with who I actually was or what I was trying to do. So I was like, I basically like said I didn't want to go with them. But they wanted you to come. You were told that through Marty. So, yes, but I was just told it in that moment.

Yeah. And then they were like basically like, okay, well, then you have to handle your parents to let you stay. Well, at first they tried to tell them and my parents got angry. And then they said, well, you have to talk to them. And then when I talked to my mom on the phone, she was basically like, she said, I was going to let you stay. But when I said, well, what about Jenna? They said, she's leaving with you. And she said, well, what if she doesn't want to?

And they said, well, we don't care what she wants. Oh, wow. That's heavy. Yeah. And that planted a seed in my mind at that time. Although it was for something that I already knew. Like, I guess like, like, I guess everyone else in the Sea Org, I felt like could work, could do good work, was allowed to do good work, and they could maybe get promoted accordingly and have their own path. But I was almost like never allowed to work. Like, I was always put on training because I was just always like, everything was just about

making me not be bad PR for my family. And so like, when she told me that they said that I was like, I was like, it was just another example of how unimportant I was to them except for what I represented to other people. And it made me wonder if I would ever be able to do anything that I wanted to do, or even help achieve the goals of Scientology, or if I would ever be able to do anything that I wanted to do or even help achieve the goals of Scientology or if I would always just be like treated in a certain way because of my family name. And so that planted a seed. But then and, you know, looking back at the time, I'm like, well, why would my mom say she was going to let me stay? Because I was a minor still, you know, but my mom also grew up in Scientology. So at the time I thought that it was nice that she said that.

And so I guess my parents wound up agreeing to let me stay because a similar thing had happened to my mom when she was young. Like her parents tried to take her out of the Sea Org, and they succeeded for a while, and she wound up hating them. And I honestly think that they were right about that. Like, I guess I'm just that amount of stubborn and bitchy that I probably would have, I think I would have hated them and resented them. And it's almost better, even though it happened many years later, that I came to it on my own. Well, I had asked you early on about the concept of love between you and your parents.

And we were talking about in your childhood when you were growing up. But now you're 16. Like you said, you've seen him once in the last four years? Yeah, once or twice. For a few hours or something? Yeah. Like once I saw my dad and he was like – that was like when he told me why my mom got in trouble because she had been having an affair. And I was like – it was just like – like I was almost like handling him because he was upset. So, yeah.

And then I saw my mom once when I was supposed to convince her to stay in the Sea Org. So it was like kind of the same thing. I was just like I was the parent in these scenarios. And any letter that I had received from my mom had to be read in front of this high Scientology official and then taken. Yeah, so because she was on the RPF all those years when I was in Florida and because me having a letter from her would be bad PR, like if anyone saw it, if they knew that she was on the RPF, she would give me the letters from my mom and make me read them in front of her face. And then I would have to give them back to her. How personal were these letters? I mean, they were like, today I worked, I worked on this project on that we're working

on. I did this auditing and they were like, you know, I love you very much. And I had told her early on, like, I was like, tell me if you need anything, because on the RPF, you only got like $12 pay. And I like, I mean, I also got only like like $12 pay but I just like felt bad for her that she was having to do this program so I was like if you need anything so sometimes she would be like if you could send me a hat that would be nice oh my god and like but because she was saying the projects that she was working on it was considered that like other people weren't allowed to be seeing that and so it was actually a big deal for me at the time. Like all I kind of wanted to do was like have the letter from my mom and put it under my pillow and be able to read it

at night before I went to go to bed. But it was like, I wasn't allowed to do that. And then I like wasn't allowed to talk to anyone about it. And it just like, and even like my aunt, my grandma would ask me what was happening with my mom. And it was like, if I talked about it, I would get in so much trouble. So it was just like, always hiding it from everybody. So you felt like you'd get in trouble, even if your grandma and aunt were asking you, which kind of elicits the idea that they want to know, and this is between us, and you still were uncomfortable yeah because they weren't even seer members like i would have gotten more in trouble for telling them than i would have with who's gonna find out honestly probably i would wind up telling or they would wind up telling or they would wind up or

they would be clueless and mention it in some communication to my uncle or something. And he would be like, how do they know? And so, yeah. So someone would wind up telling. So your mom would say, though, in those letters, she would mention, I love you very much and stuff like that. And you had such a kinship to just something as simple as the letter that you'd want to sleep with it under your pillow or something. So you still feel something during this time period. And yet when you get to 16 and you find out they leave, it's almost like, all right, this has just been such a stress.

Like I don't want to go with them. This is a weight on me so were you at a point maybe also because like the age you are you know the hormones are firing and everything where you're right and there's a boy i liked too so i was like oh i wasn't gonna see him well yeah but he was in florida where i never went back to so that was kind of a bust and i never i never went back to florida i didn't see my grandma i didn't see any of my And I never went back to Florida. I didn't see my grandma. I didn't see any of my friends there. You never went back? No. Wow.

Yeah. But you don't – point being, you know, even though you were going through these emotions and everything, now at this age, 16, when this meeting happens to be happening, it's finally like the way I'm picking it up and correct me if I'm wrong, like you resent them. Yes. I thought – I didn't think they were bad people me if I'm wrong, like you resent them. Yes. I thought, I didn't think they were bad people, but I was like, this is annoying. Like you're just fucking with my life. And, and I think it's just because of so many years of me saving my mom's gum wrappers in my bottom drawer, saving like any letter she ever sent to me that like when I was at the ranch and she was far away.

It was like anything like I would even like if they gave me like a soft animal, I would like have to sleep with them all in my bed. Like and so many years of when I was a kid, you know, dreaming that I was like having a day off with my parents and then waking up and it was just like Groundhog day, like get back to work. So I think I just like had so much of that, that I just finally had to like disassociate in my mind and be like, okay, this isn't happening. Like, yeah. So, so just stop hoping because that's crushes to you. And then it was just like, yeah, I don't even know them. Like they have nothing to do with me. Let's be real. And that's, I mean, all evidence pointed to that, to that you know like i i didn't spend christmases with them i didn't like there's there's yeah there's the there's an in it there there's a barrier that that creates an inability to actually bond and know someone even if you're blood tied to them and want to love them

like at some point that's going to build up like a powder keg. I understand completely. That's me. I don't understand experiencing that, but I can understand what you're talking about. Yeah. So during, during this time period though, too, like you were mentioning early on in the podcast, you know, when you were a child, David and would pick you up and take you to hang out with Shelly. But when you're in Florida, you had said a little bit ago, like if he was coming through, you'd have to eat in the bathroom or something to avoid him when people in your family were in trouble. But did you have any real prolonged interactions with him at all during that time period? Right. So the time when I would have to go in the bathroom that I would only have to

avoid him because I was in trouble, but they. But they were actually in Florida for many of those years when I was there. And when they were in town, my Aunt Shelly would bring me into the office and talk to me for hours. For hours? Yeah. About what? She would mostly talk to me about my training. She would talk to me about health stuff. She would talk to me about girl stuff. And so the organization I was in was called the Commodore's Messenger Organization. And L. Ron Hubbard is the Commodore and we were people – and we were supposed to be his messengers by – anyways, even though he was dead, it was – I don't know. It's too much.

I feel you. Anyway, so she had been a messenger from a really young age. Like she would always tell me I was a messenger from when I was nine years old. And she would sort of always try to mentor me. And like, I don't know, like she was almost like a mother figure. Like my mom, like she would talk to me about my period. She would talk to me about health. She would talk to me about all those sorts of things.

She would even say things like, you know, in my experience, lots of boys marry girls in CMO, but then they take advantage of them and they take like they use them to get a higher like to get to a higher level. It was kind of weird. I was like, is she talking about Dave? Like, I don't know. It was, you know, or she would talk to me about my aunts and my grandma. And so like, it was like she was family. But I also knew that if I pissed her off, then it wasn't like, yeah, like, it wasn't like I had some kind of special treatment. And then Dave would come in and out of the office, and he would show me stuff, make jokes. And he would like,

ask me questions. He would like complain about people, but it was like nice and friendly. But at that time I called him sir. And, you know, and I knew how he was, I would see him getting angry at other people. I mean, I, even the times when I visited my mom in Florida, like, you know, we would, before I went to Florida for good, we would like watch movies. We went like, did like mini golf together. Like, I mean, those were like the, I mean, seeing my mom and how they lived and how nice their, their rooms were and how well they got treated. That was something that compared to how it was at the ranch made me be like, oh, I want to be a Sea Org member. I want to be, yeah, I want to be an executive in Scientology because they get to do all this fun stuff. But I didn't realize, you know,

they were being treated much differently than the average Sea Org member. Well, I was going to be asking you, I think you kind of just answered. I just want to make sure, you know. Wendy's most important deal of the day has a fresh lineup. Pick any two breakfast items for $4. New four-piece French toast sticks, bacon or sausage wrap, biscuit or English muffin sandwiches, small hot coffee, and more. Limited time only at participating Wendy's Taxes Extra. Learning basic things about, you know, what it is to be a woman and all the things that go with that. And learning about boys and natural urges you have.

It seems like Shelly was your main resource there. I mean, because she's also, we've talked about it throughout this conversation, but you didn't have really a lot of people older than you. So it seems like the few times where you were able to, in an extended environment, be able to talk with someone who's older than you, you were kind of lapping that up, you know, getting whatever you could get. For sure. But the actual people that I was talking to were my friends. Like those were the people who I would talk to about boys or my period. Shelly would bring, I would talk with her about that too, but I'd be like, yeah, I got my period two years ago, But thanks for talking about it now. How did your friends – like where did your friends learn it from if they grew up in the ranch too?

I mean I actually don't know. But like if like when I got my period – Divine intervention. Like when I got my period, like that's who I like borrowed a pad from or a tampon like and then eventually or like we would go to the store together and like we were like shy to buy like tampons or whatever and so I would like put it in her basket or something or they were older and so they didn't give they didn't care but like that's who like so Shelly would talk with me about it I never I never talked to my mom about it and she would talk about health and things like that. And it was, it felt motherly because she was somebody who was my mom's age

and somebody who I knew since I was a baby. But like, it wasn't really like, it's not like what I'm doing with my daughter right now. Like my friends were the ones who were there every month. Yeah. Yeah. You can do it the right way. I mean, right. Yeah. That's, that's wild. So would you say that you, you know, you had been saying that some people would say like, Oh, Shelly can be nasty and stuff like that. But like, did you, did you like her or was it just like a nice escape to be able to talk with someone for hours, regardless of who they were? It was definitely a nice escape to be able to talk with someone for hours, regardless of who they were. It was definitely a nice escape to be able to talk to someone for a few hours. But also I liked her a lot.

Yeah. But also like, you know, she would. So looking back, you know, I thought that. I guess like she would say things to me like. Like she would tell me when I was with her like you know no like she would be like like i guess she would be like complaining about my dad and how he would like always send me letters or he would like try to call me all the time and she would be like oh he's always been obsessed with family but he like she would be like but Thayton is really the parent of another Thayton.

So he just has a weird obsession with that. And she would tell me that, you know, or she would like, she would say things like that. And I thought she was being nice and helpful, but really she was kind of talking shit about my dad. And or like she would like, I don't know, say things about my mom. Like I would tell her that I was like kind of really worried and upset that my mom was on the RPF. And I felt bad for her because she had been in such a high executive position and then kind of like got busted. And I remember when I first found out about it, all these people were like, well, we're not friends with her anymore. I don't have respect for her. And I just I thought that that would be really hard for my mom to experience.

And I like that part of it hurt me more than not being able to see her. And Shelly would be like, well, she always bragged about being the strongest woman on the base. And she'd be like, and she's doing fine. Like she was, she would just kind of like, and like, she would just say critical things about my parents that at the time felt like they were trying to be comforting, but looking back, it's kind of messed up. But then I guess it's kind of a little bit sweet too because I think she maybe was jealous that they were my parents and I feel like she wanted to be my parent.

So I don't know. It's just kind of the whole thing is kind of messed up and mixed feelings and I don't really know what to think about it. It's all just messed up. Do you think – of course it is. But do you think that some of it could have been her – I don't want to say this. Well, maybe it could have been like she's also trying to intentionally brainwash you or – But it's not considered brainwashing to her right it's not right and maybe that's the second thing you tell me if this is the second thing i'm gonna bring up here or she's so brainwashed that she can't see that she's doing it because she feels she's

tortured into drinking the kool-aid in a way it's definitely that for her yeah she's definitely so brainwashed that she i do think that she thinks she's doing me a favor, but subconsciously. Yes. She has this other drive that she doesn't really understand, but this is, but talking to me, which makes no sense because I'm not her niece. Right. Because we're just Thetans. You're just Thetans. So it's like confusing, like why is she singling me out to talk to me for hours every time because she's not my aunt but acting like my aunt.

She's talking out of both sides of her mouth. Exactly, yeah. And so it was just like kind of confusing. And, you know, there were times when I got in trouble with her when I was in Florida. It was like – For what? So like – so it started because I was talking to this boy during course time, right? So we were like flirting and I got in trouble for it and there was like a thing going through that a bunch of people were getting in trouble for that. And they tried to take me off of my job and assign me to doing heavy labor.

And I was like, no, I'm not going to do it. I've already done enough heavy labor in my life. I was like, make me. And then – Don't mind if I do. So then I wound up getting into – so then I – so they were trying to make me, and then I wound up – I was trying to call my parents at the base because I was like just trying to go to them for something.

I was like, maybe they can give me some advice or something. And I was probably about like 15 at this time. And they wouldn't let me use the phone. Like I kept trying to pick up the phone and I would try to call and they would hang it up. And there wound up being like five people like holding me down, like each had one leg. One was like a security guard. The other three were like women in the organization that I was in. And they were just like physically restraining me from calling my parents. And then they wound up parking someone outside my door all night, stopping me from, like, if I were trying to escape, even though I had nowhere to escape to.

But like, so I was in trouble. And then I got pulled into an office. And I was in there. And Dave walked by. And he was like, are you in trouble? And I was like, yes, sir. And he was like, what for? And I was like, I got into a fight. And he was like, are you in trouble? And I was like, yes, sir. And he was like, what for? And I was like, I got into a fight. And he was like, unbelievable. No more special treatment for you. And I was like, anyways, well, I was scared, but I was also like, special treatment. came in with two of like the other most senior person on the base and then two of my seniors and basically was like said that i what i had been doing by like flirting with this boy and talking during course it was like one down from having sex in an auditing session which is like the worst thing you can do in all of scientology. Wait, so people would go into an auditing session and get it on? Well, very rarely. Well, I don't even... Only Sunny Pereira.

Oh. It's like a fetish. We're gonna go audit a book. I don't think very many people did it because it was like the worst thing you can do. It's like when she said that, I was like, we need to make a YouTube video on that. someone who did it i'm in for that sunny yeah

um yeah so so and um basically she like yelled at me for like 10 minutes in front of all these women and said that i was this close to being assigned to the RPF and that she had been a guardian angel to me. And like, she showed me all of these reports because in Scientology, people write reports on each other. Otherwise, they'll get in trouble for not reporting on you. There are just all these reports on things that I had done. And she said that I was just like a disgrace to my name and that I had to do, um, I had to receive a confessional, um, from the girl who was like where I would do certain studies. And it's a thing that you do when you're in CMO, but it basically would do the laundry of all the executives and clean all their birthing and iron all their shirts and stuff. I had to now be on that program. And I was like – and then every week at staff meeting, I would have to get up in front of the group and say how horrible I was and like say what I was doing to fix it. And I would just get like screamed at like a million times a day and treated like crap. And I wasn't allowed to talk to any of my friends.

There were no days off. And so it was just like a period of like when I was in trouble. And she was you know she was the one who caused that so she did mean things as well yeah but that oh yeah and she said at that time she was like i was the reason why the ranch was created and that it was my fault that it all went wrong and and i didn't what did that mean so at the time i was like huh like i i was six when i went to the ranch i was like couldn't get over that in my mind i was like what a thing to say and and i didn't realize it at the time but basically like a few weeks later all of the kids at the ranch who were there with me who i grew up with showed up in Clearwater and were all put on posts there.

What? Put on jobs. Just at once? All at once. So they were shutting down the ranch because basically – The feds moved in? I think some people were like – do you know anything about this, Aaron? There was like some German, like, I don't know, news thing that was like circling helicopters. And I think that I thought you were going to say colonial dignidad or something. They were like drawing comparisons.

There was a German documentary crew who had flown a helicopter over the Ente Ranch. And they had come to learn about the place where the kids of the international management executives were well essentially being held you know i mean yesterday we talked about the idea of scientology being a human trafficking cult and i mentioned an example of why i thought that way but her story and the story of all the other kids is a much better explanation of how scientology you have kids who aren't being educated. Oh, this is no question. They're not being parented.

They're being put to work, menial labor, hard labor. They're not being paid. They're not being cared for. And even most of her story is occurring when she is a child. Well, all of my stories – I mean I was 21 when I left. So everything that's occurred is essentially when I was a child. And so all these jobs I had were all when I was a kid. And all these kids that came over from the ranch were 14, 15, 16 year olds. And they were put on jobs like moving counseling folders from one place to another, like being

core supervisors, being auditors. They were all put on jobs and were working for the Sea Org for $50 a week and 3,000 miles away from their parents. So the ranch was being disbanded. I just think that it was because it was a danger to have this many minors not being educated and they could be put to good work. Oh, yeah, yeah. We could use their labor somewhere else for sure. Exactly, yeah. could be put to good work you know yeah yeah we could use their labor somewhere else for sure exactly yeah so i didn't know that that had been happening but i was the cause of it

like it was just like she was blaming me for it being disbanded yeah it's i mean it's like the gas lighting right your entire life is insane but like exactly it seems like there was a real rubicon cross when your parents went that suddenly they needed to now say, you're at fault for this. Like, did you ever, you ever seen, when I was a kid, I read the Harry Potter series. Have you read that now? So while I was in trouble during this time before my parents left, honestly, like, like, the person who was watching me clean the bathrooms would, was reading the Harry Potter books and would tell me the stories. And honestly, like that's what got me through. Like that's my escape.

Wow. And like later when I was in L.A., when I was like in a room by myself, like not allowed to see any of my friends and family. Like I stayed up all night reading Harry Potter. And honestly, like it makes me emotional. It sounds ridiculous. No, I understand. But like it got me through. Like it was just like this other world that i could escape to that it's still like my favorite book and like reading it to my kids is like so meaningful because it like just got me through crazy times like it really really did well you remind me of like what they did to harry like the aunt and uncle hated his parents who died.

Oh, right. And so then he had to stay with them and they said, you're staying in the cupboard below the steps. Fuck you, Harry. And they treated him like shit. And it feels like to me that's just the parallel I'm making as you're talking. Like when you're – especially when your parents went to leave and that Rubicon gets crossed. Your brothers left to see you as well. They're like, oh, well, she's here, so we'll take it out on her in a way.

Right. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, it's true. Definitely. And you're only like 16, 17 when this is going on. Yeah, I was 16 when my parents left. So they start taking, you're still like in heavy contact with Shelly, but they're getting you in trouble and things like that. Like what kind, did you take on some kind of formal role when you were

18, 19, 20 at some point within the organization? So once I went to LA after I found out that my parents left and they wound up allowing me to stay because I convinced my parents. For a couple of months, I just lived in a room by myself and I was studying this course that was all about how essentially they were saying that my parents were suppressive people and I was the effect of their actions. And in order to remain in good health and to stay there, I would have to not have communication with them. So I wasn't allowed to answer the phone. I wasn't allowed to get any mail. I was just, I ate at the table with this executive and I was just under full-time watch until finally after several months they allowed me to have a job but I still wasn't allowed to answer the phone or anything like that but I was at least allowed to live with my peers who are my age and eat at a table with them because to be honest that was the hardest

part of it it was the isolation oh yeah yeah and just studying in a room by myself all day under a camera so that was just like the isolation was the hardest for me. Studying was nothing and all the other stuff was like nothing, but it was just the isolation. So after a few months, I was finally able to have a job, although it was like the worst job in the world. Well, not really. What was it? Oh my gosh. It was a word. It was just the most boring job you could ever have. It was a word clearer. So I most boring job you could ever have it was a word clear so i was like basically like if people weren't doing well on their job i was supposed to find the materials that told them how to do it right and find out what words they didn't understand

and that and look up definitions with them and there's all these different techniques that you use to do that. And that was my job. Sounds not fun at all. It wasn't fun. And I, like, I had my office had a camera that went directly to the most senior executive office. Like, she would basically be spying on me all day. You're living in the Truman Show. Yeah. Like, you're, that is really not much difference.

And I know it's not only you. There's other people who are having the same types of things. But especially because of who you are, the level of it. Right, yeah. You know, they're like, oh, don't let her know anything and make sure she doesn't do anything wrong. Yeah. Keep her there. Yeah, and I mean, there's so many, like, undercurrents to what's going on. Like, the entire time all this is happening i'm literally

always being interrogated like there's never i'm never not being interrogated every day like on the e-meter you know in rooms where you're not allowed to leave unless you pretend like you had some kind of realization about how great it was when you get interrogated they're asking you all the things you you're they're basically asking you get interrogated, they're asking you all the things you you're basically asking you to self report on anything you could possibly done wrong. And they're doing this to you every day. So did you? I don't know if you're in the middle of it. I don't know if you can feel it. But now looking back on it, did that put you in some form of psychosis where it actually did wire your brain to just say whatever they wanted you to say,

including things that, you know, are stupid, but even true that maybe you did wrong that, you know, just to make it stop? Yeah. So that's a, that's a really good question because, because I had always been being interrogated, like on some level I was like I was hardened to it where I would just give them something that would that was like boring that would get me in the least possible trouble like you know I really wouldn't give them something unless I wanted to and in the end it's like if I didn't want to tell them every single thing about me personally, I could be like, well, I was supposed to be selling books. But instead, I lingered and I told a joke to my friend. And that's a much easier thing to say than maybe something you really did that was bad, like that they would consider really bad. Yeah. the fuck out of the room oh yeah like so what kind of idiot wouldn't say that if they wanted

to get out of the room yeah it would like so on some level it made me believe in it less because it was like yeah you just have to say what they want to hear or you can give them this instead of this and it will be fine and now it didn't always work out that easily because i was struggling in my mind like, okay, I should give them this thing that I really did that they would think was bad. But, yeah, so. So you did give them some things that like were objectively bad,

like a mistake you made along the way. Yeah, along the way. But then at the end, like I was just like, I was just pissed off at them for constantly interrogating me. It was against their own policies. And at that point, towards the end of the time I was there, I just got like more and more pissed off, more and more angry. Started leaving the room, which was like the end of the fucking world if you did that like nobody else did that and i would just like have to fight my way out and i just became more and more like like i'm not like unable to deal with these things anymore like what do these rooms look like

are they a normal room well this isn't a normal room. This is a studio. But, like, is it like a normal conference room? No, no, no. It's like a small office room. So it's like about a sixth of this room. And there's, like, a desk and sitting across from each other. And then there's an e-meter on the table. Of course. Yeah, and they all have cameras in the room.

And when you're talking, they're writing down everything that you're saying. And they're asking the e-meter if you did things you know so if they're like have you ever said anything bad about your uncle and then they see if it reads on the e-meter and if it doesn't read they have all these questions that they ask and your needle either has to like float like go back and forth in this smooth way or it reads, but you have to. So if it doesn't float, you have to get an answer. And then once you give an answer, if your needle doesn't float, which is the goal of everything, you have to find an earlier similar time you did that same thing until you have a floating needle and a realization. And then they re-ask the question until your needle floats upon asking the question. And then at the end of every interrogation session, they ask you a series of questions that are like, did you directly try to influence the e-meter?

Did you tell any half-truths? What else did they say? Yeah, any untruths, all sorts of – Untruths, that's the term? Half-truths, untruths. Were you waiting for a more specifically worded question? Was there some question I should have asked you that I didn't ask you? All these sort of things to cover the ground of how you might have evaded answering questions

earlier in the session. I see why you were saying yesterday, they're good. It's an effective interrogation technique. Yeah. I mean, on anything we are talking about, like to be honest, we're glossing over the most simple aspect of it. Sure. Like there's so many aspects of just being on a Scientology course, like the amount of times you get checked on the meter. If you went past a word, you get, you get like quiz once a day on what all of the words mean. And if you get it wrong,

or if you hesitate, you have to go back to the beginning of the course. You also get every policy you read. You get checked for what – so there's like – so when we say we're on course, there's still all these other undercurrents of things that are going on that are so complicated that keep you so busy and preoccupied. You hardly have time to question anything. Yeah. Yeah, that seems like what it is from the beginning they're just constantly having you be busy so that you you don't you're trained not to think it's it's very very eerily reminiscent maybe certainly i guess with less of like the death knell over it

but it's eerily reminiscent to like north kore When you hear people talk about that, you're taught what to think, how to think, where to be, don't ask questions. And if you do go fuck yourself. Right. Yeah. And you're never like even a, there's never anyone who you can talk to about real questions you might have. You're never alone in long enough to even be able to think these questions on any given day. It's all those spot checks. It's all the interrogation. It's, you have like 12 cleaning stations. You have like all these other duties. You have like so many statistics you're supposed to keep up with or, and mark on different graphs that get inspected daily. Your birthing has to be clean. Your shirts have to be ironed. Your shoes have to be shined. It's

like just so many things going on that you don't even have a second to like try to figure anything out or what you even think about it. So when you went out to L.A., you said you would like the boy back in Florida, but you never went back to Florida. Right. So that was history. Yeah. But you did end up meeting your husband and former ex-husband in Scientology right so that was in LA yeah was he in the Sea Org with you yeah he was in the Sea Org there was he your age too or he's four years older than me okay yeah and so were you working with him directly and that's how you met

or no he was in like uh like so I was in like the senior org and he was in the lower one. So he had to like call me sir. He had to call you sir? Yeah. Or like Mr. Miscavige. I don't know for certain they said Mr. You're a woman. I know.

But like even like at the ranch, we called all the women, like people who were senior to us. So like the adults at the ranch, they were our seniors. They weren't our caretakers. They were our bosses. And so we would have to call them sir or Mr. whatever if they were a woman. I don't even really know why. Do you know why? It was a rule that L. Ron Hubbard created. And it's weird because that's not even the way that it is in the Navy. L. Ron Hubbard was in the Navy. So a lot of these SEER rules are supposed to be patterned off in the Navy. For whatever reason, he specifically said if female officers are to be addressed as sir or mister, and that rule just applied to also females who are in senior organizations.

Like in the Sea Org, I called my wife sir. No. Yeah. He would have had to call me sir. Oh, that's so weird. Absolutely. Have you fucked that up in the real world where you walk in and you talk to some woman and call her sir? No, I haven't.

Good for you. But I remember one time when we were like me and a bunch of kids were at my parents' apartment when we were still at the ranch. I was probably like about like 10 or something. And then the guy, it was like me and three other young kids my age and the guy from downstairs like he came up and he was a and he oh sorry a non-scientologist and he like came up and he knocked on the door and he said that we were being too loud and that he had a baby sleeping he had a knife in his hand he was, you guys better shut the fuck up. You woke up my baby.

Honestly, now I can relate. Like if anyone woke up my baby. Just joking. I can't really relate. That's psycho. But he was like, if you guys make one additional noise, then I'll be back. And me and the three other kids were like yes sir all at the same time it's just we called anyone who was like older and a boss sir but he was like a non-scientologist and

i could tell that he kind of thought it was weird that we all said that at the same time yeah he's like okay all right that was exactly what I was looking for, but wasn't expecting. Yeah. That's so strange that you had to do that. So he, so you're, when you're first like flirting with who's going to be your husband, he's calling you, sir. Yes. Very romantic. Yeah. Yeah. But you guys like, like was, I'm just curious, like how much do you even understand? understand like I guess that's a natural human inclination but like romance inside an organization like that is it robotic like everything else or did it flow a little bit for real I mean I guess both things happen to different people you know but like so people in the Sea Org usually get married young because you can't have sex before

you're married and you can't like do anything besides like maybe like a little bit of kissing and it is a natural human inclination yes and so like people get married as young as 14 15 like everyone does 14 15 yeah I mean I guess I did get married when I was 18 but it was only because they wouldn't allow me to get married earlier. So you met him when you were 16, right? I met him when I was 16. And how quickly were you guys engaged? I mean, probably, like, I mean, we're in a couple months. Yeah. So like... Very quickly. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, my wife and I, when we got married in this year we were engaged after a few weeks yeah that's normal and again it took us a few months to get married but again only because they wouldn't let us yeah we have to jump through some hoops yeah totally normal totally normal do you feel lovers that just like puppy love so like at the time when i look back or when i look back at it i think that there is a stronger urge to get married because I lost all my family. There wasn't – I lost all my friends and I just wanted like my own little family. And you also get your own room. I'm not saying it was all about that, but like you don't have to live in a dorm with people.

So you kind of like get to like have your own things in there a little bit and so it's like this natural urge to maybe just sort of have one person who may might be on your side a little bit more than other people and yeah it's it's something like that yeah i, I understand that. But like do you think looking back on it you felt love or was more motivated by the necessities? I mean I was 16 so like I did feel love but like and attraction. Yeah. But I also think that it was very much motivated by not feeling like I was alone in the world. Like I remember having these moments when I wasn't with my brother or my parents and any of my friends.

I just remember thinking often like, God, I wonder if I could just like disappear and nobody would notice. Like or is anybody really thinking about me? And like, you know know when I didn't see my grandma or my aunt again it wasn't like I couldn't call them like we weren't writing letters and we weren't writing emails so it was like anyone could just disappear and everyone always did just disappear at any time you know you would see someone for months and then you would be gone or they would be gone it just didn't matter matter. All that mattered was the organization. So I think like having somebody who is like legally your family member and who you live with, like having that was like just kind of like having a family. Yeah.

But you're also inside of a part of the organization, the Sea Org, that as you laid out and Erin was explaining last night, like they don't want you to have kids. Right. Like they encourage against that. But did you have like an urge like that would be cool too to have kids? Like did you want to be a mom? Did you feel that kind of, you know, feminine instinct? So at that time, I didn't. You're young at that time, but eventually. Yes. So eventually I did. And I can tell you about why that came later. But he actually had wanted to have kids. I mean, he had joined the Sea Org when he was 18, but he had gone to regular school. And I think one of the biggest attractions was that he would tell me stories about like growing up with his cousins and how they would ride motorcycles and go to the beach and he had a car and he's like so he would kind of like it was almost like the Harry Potter thing all over again yes I would get to like hear these stories of like characters and

escapes and I loved that and that was kind of like my favorite thing about it. And yeah, he was a really nice person. And so, yeah, that was like kind of addicting. And then we wanted to get married, but then they wouldn't let us get married because they thought that my parents would have, would insist on coming to the wedding. And they were like kind of declared and it was like all confusing and it would be like a danger to the church. They thought that maybe they would meet someone in his family who had expressed some discontent with Scientology and that they would like conspire together to take down the church. And so they wouldn't let us get married. So we wound up having sex before we got married. Did they find out about that?

They found out about it because he wound up confessing to it. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. And what happened? How'd you guys get in trouble? And you know what? So, and the reason why I'm bringing this up was because at this point, I was at the stage where I didn't tell them.

I was getting interrogated every day. And I was telling them. You're like, I stood tall in there, motherfucker. Exactly. I'm hard. Exactly. I'm hard. Exactly. Well, and I would be like, and I feel really bad because I didn't work hard enough. But really, I was like, we had sex.

So, like, that was just an example of me, like, not really. So, I wasn't in the habit of giving everything, telling them everything I did. I was just in the habit of giving everything i telling them everything i did i was just in the habit of getting through these confessionals but you've also been like i don't mean to get like a little too personal here so if i am we can back off but like you've lived in a in a completely emotionally repressed environment for 17 years your husband at least had lived in the well not yet husband at the time but gonna be right had at least lived in the real world and sex is like the most emotional thing a human being can do so in doing that did something like unlocking you a little bit like holy shit like minus like oh

this is great you know yeah that's a good question yeah i think that it did like i think that at some level like when they started trying to separate us or say we couldn't get married i was like it also i had been separated from people so many times already that i was like i was like i kind of like went crazy i was like no fucking way are you guys doing this again like i was like i've learned all your fucking tricks and you will never ever do this to me again don't you cross her aaron i can see that look in her eyes don't you cross her man so like when they found out they wound up like separating us they like took him to like somewhere where i didn't know and they tried to have me do

heavy labor and interrogation and i was like fuck you i'm not doing it and i spent the whole next like two weeks like literally busting down doors to find him like literally what does that look like so like i'm picturing you knocking down doors but but. Yeah, yeah. So I knew that the senior most official knew where he was and she wasn't telling me. And when I would knock on her door, she wouldn't answer. And so I would bust down her door. And then I would look at her like TV camera thing that she had to everywhere. And I would look at the papers on her desk and I would see like it I would see that it said Dallas Hill and I saw that he was being like his confessionals were being done by somebody who I knew where

they worked so then I would go down to their office and I would bust down their door oh my god when they wouldn't let me in and I'd be like where the fuck is Dallas and then they would get in their car I would I would follow them to the car and then there were only a few places he could be there were only a few scientology buildings at the time so there was like the l run hubbard way i worked i worked at the one on hollywood boulevard and i lived you know um above the testing center there so i lived and worked on hollywood boulevard and i checked all the rooms there i checked everywhere i could could. I asked all of his coworkers where he was. I was literally just like walking around being followed by somebody, but I was like causing a lot of trouble and a lot of

like embarrassment for absolutely everybody involved. And then I would walk from Hollywood Boulevard to Sunset Boulevard on L. Ron Hubbard Way. And I would be like, where the fuck is Dallas? And I would follow security guards around. And so then at some point, like a really high official in Scientology, because I was causing bad PR. This is like literally the only thing they care about. They came down and tried to talk to me and they said I could talk to Dallas on the phone. And I was like, Dallas, where are you? And he was like, I love you.

But, you know, if we get through our program, we can be together. And I was like, that's bullshit. They tell me that about everyone and I've never seen them again. And I was like, just tell me where you are. And he's like, well, if I I tell them I won't ever be able to speak to my parents again and so basically they're threatening him with his family so he won't tell me where he is so basically like at that point I wound up literally like hanging myself out of the window of the fifth floor building on Hollywood Boulevard and saying like, if you

don't bring Dallas here, then I'm going to, I'm going to let go. Because I, so, and on some level, I'm like, okay, would I really have done that? And I'm like, I did have nothing to lose. Like, I had no family. I had none of my friends. I didn't have Dallas at this point. And I did believe that I was a Thetan that would come back if I died. Holy shit. But at the same time, like, my motivation was that, like, I can't find him by looking for him. They could just be moving him one door down every time. Yeah, yeah. I see him.

But if I do this, that that's gonna look really bad on them like this is literally all they care about they don't care if i die they don't care if i'm in a horrible state of mind they care how it looks that's right and if i die the police will come i'm the niece of the leader of scientology they won't they won't want this and they brought him there they brought him there. They brought him there. Right. Like the security like dragged him in like, oh, here he is. Yeah.

And the executives that were there. Yeah. They're like, he's here. Yeah. And then so and I was literally like, OK, tell me where you were. I still stayed out the window. I was like, tell me where you where you been hiding. And it was basically in the basement of the blue building. He was security checked he was being watched day and night by security guards he was being security

checked by this one gal she was she also like had audited katie holmes and stuff so she was like known for being good at security checking and like you know they have certain certain people who are like known for being really aggressive at being able to get people to tell everything. And so she was, like, one of those main ones. And, yeah, they'd been threatening him with never being able to talk to his family again. And, yeah, and basically from that point on, I was like, okay, well, I'm not, I'm not. Like then I came out of the window and I was like, they tried to separate us again. And I was like, no.

I just like was like, no. So you tried to like drag them away? Yeah. You said, I'm going back to the window now? No, no, no. I was like, I was like. Yeah. Now everything we do, we're going to do together.

Like, and they tried to pry us apart. And because of who you are, they ended up letting this happen. They wound up letting this happen because I was a psycho, basically. Good for you. Yeah. I mean, honestly, there is nothing else in the entire world that would have ever worked. Yeah. No, this is like a whole different scenario.

See, like in the real world, if we heard something like this, we'd call you like a stage five clinger. In Scientology, this is brave. Yeah, because they're because you should never have to do something like this. Like they're taking someone from you for no reason, like just because they want to torture you. Like, it's crazy. So that I mean, that that the bravery it takes to do something, I mean, put your body out there too. And also, like I said, I'm going to let go. You better make this happen. Like, obviously, if they let it happen, they must have been pretty, I don't know if they can be moved, but they must have been pretty shocked by the situation. Like, you know what?

Fuck it. We're not dealing with this. I've never heard a story like that within Scientology. Yeah, yeah. It is pretty weird. Yeah. And I think on some level, I was also a stage five clinger looking back because like, maybe that's how stage five clingers are made. Like you like constantly get abandoned throughout your whole life. And like, that's like the only thing you have. I think you could be forgiven for

that. I think, I think we're okay with it. But so you were still 17 when this is happening though, because you're not married. That's right. Yeah. I was 17. But you get married when you're 18. Yes. So yeah. And the whole reason we weren't allowed to get married was because they thought my parents would cause an issue at my wedding. But my parents didn't even know that I wanted to get married. So they wound up like they brought us to big bear and had us be on watch by these two people full time getting confessionals they were kind of trying to take me to an outdoor environment because they thought i was psychotic

they were trying to take me like kind of like into the wilderness to like have my mind calm down and like be normal again and so we did that for like a month and then i was like okay let's go back like i kind of was like all right what's my punishment what's gonna happen with all this like and so they posted dallas at a different base which was just but not far away it was the one on alron hubbard way and i was on hollywood boulevard and you could see him i could not like i think that was a little bit part of their plan. And then I worked in the thing that we talked about earlier, which is like the real estate area where I would do like design work and renderings and stuff like that. And basically I wound up convincing one of the executives that like I guess they brought me to the Int base one day. Like, I had to go in.

And they basically were like, we just want you to hold on a little bit longer before you get married. Because we're just, oh, yeah, it had something done something publicly publicly like it would just be a pr disaster for them and they felt like it tied in somehow because they're paranoid about absolutely everything and so they just wanted me to hold on a little bit longer until that was over and then yeah and i was like well look i don't think my parents will even want to come to the wedding they were in the seer they understand so maybe if you'll just let me write them a letter then it will just not be a problem and so I like and they were like okay fine maybe so I wrote a letter and it was like I didn't even say I wanted to get married. I just said that I had a boyfriend.

But anyone who had been in the CR knows that if you have a boyfriend, you want to get married. So it was kind of like a secret message, like subliminal thing, like where my parents, they wound up looking at it and being like, oh, she probably wants to get married. And she probably – they wrote back and they said, oh, we're happy for you that you met someone. We don't have to come to the wedding. Like they kind of did the math on it probably yeah so um and so when they wrote back they basically kind of were like had their tail between their legs they're like they had made this problem go on for years and they were like showed me the letter and they're like so are you just gonna like go get married today oh oh no so at that previous meeting though i said okay fine i'll wait a little bit

longer if you bring dallas back to the place where i'm at yeah so they so they did it and then when the letter came back they were like oh so you're gonna go get married today and i was like yes and then so um where'd you guys get married so we didn't have a wedding we like it was very hard to get approval to even go down to the courthouse like they made it hell but they finally approved it and we had like two hours off and like dallas had a like a old ass red truck and when we didn't have enough money for gas so on the way there we had to get gas and we only had put like five dollars in and the key to the ignition was the same as the key to the gas tank and it broke off in the gas tank and the gas like you know what I mean and it um so we put the gas and we managed to fish that out i like seriously like

put the half of the key into the ignition and put the like the broken part and turned it and we went to the courthouse and we really wanted to get married good for you well we were kind of like is this a sign and i was like at that point i like, it was good enough reason just to shove it in their face to get married, to get married. So anyway, so sorry. It's all good. The psycho is showing. It's all not at all. I completely, I get it.

Yeah, yeah. So we got married at the courthouse and then went back to work. And then that evening. The same day you just go back to work, get married went back to work. And then that evening. The same day you just go back to work, get married, go to work. Oh yeah, totally. Well, so in order to be officially married, you do have to have like a little ceremony where the minister signs it. So his family came up from San Diego and we got off post. Well, we got a break from our jobs at midnight and we um went to the celebrity center and his family was there and i was still wearing my uniform and i was like and i worked in the design office so and i

made design boards so i used spray glue to like put and i used to make the design boards and it was like all caked on my shoes i looked like a. And he was in his uniform. And we went there at midnight. And then his dad, like, because he was a minister in Scientology, he, like, he did the ceremony on us. And then so we were married. And then we went back to post. So, like, none of my family was there. There weren't any pictures. There wasn't any, like, wedding dress or food or anything. It was just, like minutes. And like my best friend was there and another friend of mine, they were also in their uniforms. And then your best friend from the Sea Org? Yeah. At that time. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, and then we went back to post because at that time, like we were working on evolutions that like, honestly honestly we were required to stay up all night and sleep under our desks for like two hours and then get back to work. So we were like working through the night many nights in a row. So we just like went right back to our jobs right after that. When you were getting married like in the actual ceremony though, were you happy?

I was like relieved and i was like it was also kind of weird because his family was there and they were all like they were scientologists but they were like they must have looked crazy to them you know and they were like had like their babies there and they were like yeah i guess I was just like, I guess I was happy that it was finally getting done. And it like, like the ceremony did mean a lot to me. Like I wanted, like, you know, it talks about like, honestly, I don't even remember what it talks about. Like, I guess in Scientology, they, they have this triangle and they talk about it in the ceremony. It's the ARC triangle and it's affinity, reality, and communication.

And all those three things add up to understanding. And it talks about like, you know, and it talks about not going to bed when you're upset with each other. And yeah like i guess it was like i finally accomplished this and i won and i could be with somebody who i loved but they were there were like little fissures in our relationship already already at that point well because he told on us yeah and continued to do so on because of the threat of never being able to talk to his family again, which was something that was very important to him in contrast to how I felt about my family at that time. Yes, very different. So I couldn't understand it.

But he also experiences his family. Exactly. He grew up in a house with his family. He went to school. They took care of him. And so that was always kind of a through line even when we left Scientology because his parents were still in Scientology and they saw me as somebody who was keeping him out of Scientology. So I was like the devil. Yeah. between his family and me constantly just wound up just like kind of, you know,

leading to the eventual demise. But, I mean, it's not really a demise if you're married for 22 years. Like it still can be a successful relationship. Yeah, I understand. But, yeah. You had kids too. It's a great thing. Right.

We'll get there. Yeah, yeah. But so you get married in like 2002. You're 18 right something like that and you didn't leave till 2005 right the end of 2005 like November okay so after you got married what was the build-up to 2005 with you leaving like how did it happen were there specific things you witnessed that suddenly like made it click? Because I asked that because it's very clear that at this point, you at least fully subconsciously know this place is really fucked up. And I would prefer not to be here. But you almost like haven't admitted that fact out aloud to yourself. That's fair to say. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So the base that I was at, you know, it became where we were staying up all night to do these evolutions for things that had to get done to

meet deadlines. It became like, you know, things became increasingly like people were getting treated worse and worse and they started enforcing rules for, for the sake of rules. Like they weren't even things that were L. Ron Hubbard policies and because I was now to a point where I was kind of like seeing things for how they were I was like kind of like I couldn't unsee it a little bit like I was like I'm here because I care about people and I want to make the world a better place and I want to help people. And everyone in my life, like I knew my parents weren't suppressive people. There were other people who I knew who got declared suppressive people who I'd known my whole life.

And I was like, they're not suppressive people. I know. I don't care what you say. So you're starting to reason for yourself. Yeah. Effectively. yourself. Yeah, effectively. Right? Yeah. And I started to see that the people around me who I cared about were being treated terribly. And I was like, why would I care about helping some strangers out in the world who I don't even know when my friends are getting treated like garbage and being put on the RPF or being declared

suppressive people, which is the worst thing you can be declared. Like I was like, why would I care about some strangers when all the things that I can see with my own eyes are not, those people aren't being helped. And I guess I kind of started to like, started to believe only what I could see with my eyes or started to actually believe what I saw with my eyes. Yeah. And then there was a period that me and Dallas were sent to Australia as part of a mission to get a new building for a church out there. But it was really like, they were really just like trying to get rid of us it was like this we were sent to canberra australia which is like the smallest failing

scientology organization and where is that like relative to sydney anywhere near it it's a couple hours away but it's actually the capital of australia but nothing is there like anybody in australia would be like oh yeah canberra like nothing happens there like inland from sydney yes yeah okay and um and we were sent there because i i kind of became more and more like problematic like i i i've started like biting heads like they would come into the office and be like you know you have to turn off the music because and i'd be like why because it's against the rules to enjoy anything be like you know you have to turn off the music because and i'd be like why because it's against the rules to enjoy anything and like you know they were trying to like take away like so some people had eventually gotten cell phones because it like that's how that's

where technology was going and then they tried to take away everyone's cell phone and i was like well no i'm not giving away mine like try to take it from me. Like what policy? And so I guess I became, or, or when they would try to make us stay up night after night, all the time, always, I was like, no, I'm going to sleep. I was like, who's coming with me? No one came with me ever. Nobody ever. Cause their last name is not Miscavige. But not only, that's true, but I wasn i wasn't doing it like i guess that makes me look like a jerk like i felt like i could do that because i was miscavige but no i i got in trouble for it too and i was willing to have those people's backs and in private they would tell me

like oh i'm not giving up my cell phone or oh i'm not staying up either i mean i was right they should not have been made to stay up all night. So whether it was because my name was Miscavige or not, like I was right and we should have been able to sleep and I don't feel bad about going home and telling everyone that they should have gone home. And really like when people would get in trouble for certain things,

being like, like they would go to the harshest punishment for them. And I'd be like, well, what about training them for their job? You never did that. You don't even let them to do their job training because they're staying up all night. And so I was just like calling things out and being obnoxious. And like, so I think they were just trying to get rid of me. And so they sent us to Australia and they weren't going to send Dallas with me, but I insisted that he came with me. Oh, again? Even when you're married?

Yeah. They always separate husbands and wives in Scientology. They don't care. So we were there for like a year. And it was clear that they didn't really care if we were getting anything done or not. So I had a little bit of freedom. We were like in the regular world. We had an apartment.

And we were meeting Scientologists there. And like one of them who was helping us with our project had a couple of kids and one of them was two. And we were with her often because we were working together. And we're also like cooking our own food kind of, which I never, we were going to the grocery store and, and we interacted with non-scientologists and they were like seemed perfectly normal to me and I was like hmm so you had never really done I know either of those things yeah none of I never and also like her little kid was so cute and like adorable and sweet like it was the first time that I like had it was the first time I thought about having kids like I just like she was so funny and crazy yeah and like she was like kind of like my bestie and like I would like carry her which is like that's like a I think like carrying a baby yes is like something happens absolutely if you're a woman maybe isn't it like there's like an oxytocin release or something like that? I guess.

There's a hormonal. Yeah, there's. If I got the hormone wrong, correct in the comments. But there is something scientific there. Yeah. Yeah. Especially at that age. Yes.

Like so I was like probably like 20 at that time. And Dallas always wanted to have kids. He had the idea that the rule that you couldn't have kids as seer members would change which was really fucking dumb i was under no delusions that it would change um but i guess also knowing that he had family out it seemed like there was a possibility that like like if we left we would have somewhere to go but they don't want a thetan like you feeling another satan and feeling anything when you do that. Right.

Let alone having one. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So when we finally came back from Australia, like the difference between living that way and like we would even like watch TV a little bit at night. And we had to like confess all that when we came back. So you hadn't really watched like real actual live cable TV?

No, we couldn't watch TV. No. I mean we went to bed at midnight. We weren't allowed to have TVs. Like they would get confiscated if anyone ever got one. Had you ever used like a computer or the internet? So the internet was in a locked room at the end of a hall. And it had all this

software on it that blocked any anti-Scientology sites or words or anything. And you had to get special approval from different people in order to use it. And you could only use it for your job. And so like, so when we were in Australia, I actually like was in touch with my parents at that point. Like we would call them because we had an apartment that had a landline and so I was actually able to talk to them a little bit and even once like we went to this anti-scientology site that my parents had mentioned but they mentioned everything carefully they never said anything like outright on the phone when you talk with them well they were like oh check out this site you know but

they weren't like Scientology's evil and right you're in a cult because I would have just shut them down so it's like you have to be so sensitive subtle absolutely yeah and like I think most importantly you have to show them like you have to not be the enemy you have to be the place where they feel like they can always go to when shit goes down or when they want to leave. So just like being nice and loving is maybe more important than what you say about the cult. Just if you're the first person they think of when they have enough seeds planted that they eventually want to leave, maybe you'd be the person that they would go to so they like maybe mentioned the site but didn't tell us what to think about it and then maybe told me one or two things that i knew to be true like about like so my aunt had

been declared a suppressive person and they told me the circumstances surrounding it was my mom's sister so her name was sarah yeah she oh yeah because shelly that was later when she like and she wasn't declared suppressive she just got sent off right right well she's still in the seahore yeah so she wasn't declared suppressive yeah and so it was like and they told me other people who had been declared and i was like oh those people aren't suppressive like i already knew like and i was already kind of disillusioned but um so yeah so when we went back things were just like starkly different Like it was like if people were falling asleep when we were listening to an L. Ron Hubbard lecture, they would be made to clean the dumpster outside with a toothbrush. And it was like people were just like getting screamed at in front of the staff meetings and it was just so bad. And then i you know can we go back for one second oh yeah yeah i'm sorry i'm going on a roll no no that's okay just when in i guess it's like oh three oh four or something like that when you're in australia yeah i think it's like oh four okay

yeah so you check out some of these sites like you were saying that your mom had pointed out. What's that like to finally see something written there or in video form, whatever it was, that is peeling back the facade on what has been your entire life like do you immediately take it as oh my god yeah wow how did i not see this or are you like wait a minute this can't be true because it's like your whole life is a lie right that's a really good question because at the time when i was looking at i was kind of like looking at it like don't look directly at it like don't look into the light exactly yeah and it wasn't until later when i had left the seer did those sites make a difference for me because actually somebody who i knew was posting on them later when at that time i kind of didn't know what they were talking about like they kind of used some terminology that i didn't really understand but just the fact that there were people out there against scientology that i think is what

made a difference to me like that there was some dissent out there and people who had been in um that made a difference to me but later on when they're when i saw people who i knew telling stories about people that i knew then, then it made a huge difference to me. Yeah. But at that time, it was still kind of like I was afraid to look at it directly. And I was just like, but knowing that it was out there was important. How crazy is that, though, that like you're so wired by them, even though you've been

pushing back internally a ton and rebelling. Yeah. You're so still wired into this that you're without even knowing what's on the other side of the candelabra right there. You're just naturally making yourself afraid to even look at it. That is so frightening to me that it can go that deep. It's so true. Yes, that was absolutely the case.

And there were other factors like I didn't fully know how to use the Internet. And then they use their like funny language that I didn't understand. Like, and then. Yeah, so there were just a few things that couldn't make me really go all in and look at it yeah um yeah so then um when we got back to the base it was just like it was almost like i'd been living with some degree of freedom for almost a year now and it was like a shit show and everyone was psychotic there and it was just so obvious that they were doing everything they could to make everyone there miserable and they did not give a crap about their happiness or their well-being. And I, like, it was just something that I knew for a fact. Like, it was like, it was something that was undeniable. And, yeah. And then so shortly thereafter, I wanted to leave.

Now, how did that go down? And was your husband on board right away or was that a tough conversation? So he was on board right away. So if you want to leave the organization, you're not actually allowed to tell your spouse. It's considered a depressive act for which you could be declared. But like so I – but I did tell him. But he was sort of like – he was like, yeah. But he was like, but you get through your stuff. And then once you get through it – like because before you leave, you have to do a whole interrogation and sign all this crap.

And he was like, once you get through all that, then I'll leave. If you get through it, I'll leave with you. And so I was like once you get through all that then i'll leave if you get through it i'll leave with you and so i was like okay so now that's just leaving the c org that's not leaving scientology right yeah but it's a big deal because of who you are obviously bigger deal right exactly yeah and they did a few last ditch efforts to like try to give me a post that I would like. And so like, so actually at that time is when I did my auditor training. And the reason I chose to do my auditor training is because at the crux of whether or not Scientology works is auditing. So I felt like it was the only job that I could do that wasn't like hadn't been twisted by – like that was only written by L. Ron Hubbard and that was the way I could see if Scientology really helped people or not. It's like Scientology in its purest form. Managing this person who manages this person who manages – it was like all like so much red tape and ridiculousness where I felt like if this didn't work, then it would be undeniable.

And so I did my auditor training and there was just more of the same stuff going on. Like I wound up auditing some people, like there became new rules, like people in higher level organizations couldn't be married to people in lower level organizations. And so like I wound up auditing and I only audited for very like a month, but I wound up auditing somebody who was not allowed to talk to their wife because of these rules and was trying to get through this auditing action in order to be able to talk to his wife he was so in love with and it just became one thing after another like everyone was just getting treated like crap and it just i did not like it didn't work like i didn't wind up being able to teach myself that scientology actually works or helps people it was the opposite that

was the last ditch effort and it just yeah yeah. Yeah. And I was getting confessionals myself and I wound up like, like meaning interrogations. And so, and I wound up getting so pissed off in one that I, I left the room and I had to like fight the auditor and I had to like run down the stairs before they could catch me. And it was just like, and I like, and I got in trouble for this. And it was more out here. So then they were like, so finally it was time to leave. I'm sorry. When you say fight, like, physically get into it? Yeah, like, physically fight.

Is it a guy? It was a woman. an auditor, you actually do a course that is all about how to physically force the person to do what you tell them to do. It's called like upper indoctrination training routines. And it's like, in one of the drills that you do is they try everything they can to get away, like everything they can. It's like a whole scene in the classroom when it's happening everyone's watching and you have to be able to and usually like like when i did i was twin with this huge guy who's like six foot something and they have to do everything they can to get away and you learn to basically force them and so when you're in an auditing session

in scientology your auditor is trained to not let you leave the room. And you're not allowed to leave the room. And you know that. And so, you know, and there's a camera. And on some level, you don't ever try it because you know the rules. But I just was like so fed up. I mean, I had so many more hours of confessionals than anybody else I ever knew. I was just so over everything i was like

honestly i think i was just like having a mental break at this time and i was like i did not care about the rules anymore i just like wanted to get the fuck out of there and like you know yeah so i like i crushed the cans to the e-meter that you hold because i was like if i crush them then she can't do the session like she can't use the e-meter and she hold because I was like if I crush them then she can't do the session like she can't use the e-meter and she still wouldn't let me leave I threw my auditing folder up in the air she still wouldn't let me leave and we were just like fighting and I wound up like being able to push her out of the way I mean this auditing room was, like, more of, like, an eighth the size of this room. It was tiny. Whoa.

And then I finally got out. And then I was, like, running to the back stairwell so that I could escape the building. And there was somebody, like, who, like, just as I pushed open the door that led to outside, a security guard was just getting there and didn't stop me in time. And like wound up like screaming like leave me alone get the fuck away from me and they're like like they just like knew at that point it's bad pr and someone could call the cops but then it was kind of like okay well i'm walking around here on the sidewalk now with nowhere to go like who am i going to call? So I always just wound up having to go back.

So you'd go back into the building after that? Oh, like where else would I go? I didn't have a phone. Like everything normal. Yeah. Well, I guess I would walk around all day until I, like, calmed down. And often there would be someone following me, trying to get me to come back.

And I didn't have anyone to call really i didn't like a teacher like person like hey come back that kind of thing so at first it would be like an auditor but then they would enlist my friends to be like jenna please come back this is good and i'd be like hey stay out of it they're using you and i don't want to get angry at you because you have nothing to do with this so just just like, so it just, um, that went on for a little while. And then finally I was like, okay, I'm leaving. And they wanted me to get an interrogation. And I was like, and in order to get an interrogation, I had to do this other auditing thing.

And I refused to do it. I was like, I'm never getting auditing again. I want the fuck out of here. But, um, who'd you go and I refused to do it. I was like, I'm never getting auditing again. I want the fuck out of here. But- Who'd you go and tell this to? It was the people in the Office of Special Affairs and also the RTC representative. Anyways, she was like the most important person on the base and she was- Was that Mike Rinder's office? Yes. In fact, Mike Rinder handled my routing out directly and was directly involved. I did not know this at the time,

but basically when I was like supposed to be getting my interrogation, they were taking my ex-husband aside separately. And he stopped like coming back to the room at night. And I was like, and then I was like, you're still leaving with me, right? And he was like, yeah, well, only if you get through your your confessional but I just like couldn't bring myself to do it and I was like and then he sort of like changes started changing his tune slowly and I was like well who are you talking to he was like no one and then it finally came to a point when they were like like this went on for weeks. And then he was like getting weirder and weirder and more and more cold. And he finally said he wasn't going to come with me.

And they were trying to force me into the confessional. I would just stay in my room all day. And then they tried to get me to sign this form that was like, that was like, if I ever speak badly about Scientology, then I will pay however many millions of dollars. And I was like, I just like shredded it in her face. I was like, I'm never signing this. Good for you. And it was because I was also pissed off at that time that Dallas was starting to act weird. And I knew that they were doing something with him. You're getting to him. Yeah. And then so finally I was like, okay, well, I can't do this anymore. I'm going to leave without you.

I was going to go to my parents' house. And at this time I did have my cell phone and I could talk to them. And they, like, couldn't, like, when they said they were going to take it away from me, I said I was going to call the police. And so. You threatened to call the cops yeah i mean it was all like i i was already in trouble like i i was already doing the worst things i could do i don't think that i really believed in scientology anymore yeah like so um and most

people they're leaving just the c-org i would think I was like done with all of it. So like Aaron left the year after me. He left the Sea Org just the year after me. We left the Sea Org at the same time, but he continued with Scientology. Yeah. Right. And so, um. But you want to break free completely. You're like, I'm done. Yeah. But it was easier for me because my parents were already out of Scientology. And so I wanted to be like, okay, all right, I'm going to leave without Dallas. And I was really upset. And I remember I was going to leave the next day and I was crying and we were like hugging and like he gave me one of his sweaters. And then he was like, okay, I'm going to take you to the airport. And then from OSA, the gal was like, no, you can't take her to the airport.

You drop her in a cab and say goodbye and that's it. Oh, my God. Yeah. And then so to his credit, he was like, well, no, I'm going to take her to the airport. She's my wife. I'm not going to ever see her again. And she was like, absolutely not and like started acting crazy. And then he was like, no, I'm going to take her to the airport.

And then so she wound up like, so he had a car and he like was taking me to the airport. She was like, fine, I'm going to be in the car with you guys. So she was like in the backseat. Yeah. Then we like went to get something to eat. She was there the entire time. He was like dropping me off and saying goodbye and I was like and I and at that time I remembered something like as I was leaving in the airport

like about to get on my flight I remembered something that someone had said to me a very senior executive he's like like the third in command of Scientology he was like he was basically like you know like he was like all we care about was basically like, you know, like, he was like, all we care about is how is how you're doing, like Dallas can be thrown to the sharks. And I was like, if I leave, they're basically like, they're going to destroy him. Like, he's just going to be in trouble. The only reason he hasn't been RPF or anything like that is because they know that I wouldn't let that happen. And so I basically wound up telling him, I said, like, look, I'll stay. And I will complete my program and I'll just stay.

If you want to stay, then I'll stay with you. And then, like, he, it was kind of a tactic at the time because I was like, I knew that all they could say about me was that I wanted to leave. And he kept turning it on me that I was leaving him. And so I was like, fine, I'll stay. And then he was like, started crying and told me, basically told me everything that had been happening, that Mike Rinder and this gal from OSA had been interrogating him every single day. And they had been telling him how bad my family was. They have been making him tell everything that I ever said to him, all the things that my parents told me, like about

Dave beating people and stuff that was going on at the base. And they, and he basically said like, and if, and if I left with you, they said that I would never speak to my family again. And then so we – so then we, like, were told the girl who was there. I was like, okay, we're going to stay. And she was like, no, thank you. Well, was she listening? Was she hearing this whole – Oh, so she was there.

She's hearing the whole conversation. No, so she was there, and I was like, leave us alone. And then she was like, no, I'm staying right here. She's hearing the whole conversation. she would take a step away and so we were able to have this conversation so we but she was calling dallas the whole time and i even like i took his phone and i broke it in half and threw it in the trash because and then so like don't fuck up erin she got she got the biggest balls in this room just saying it was a long time ago um and so um we she was like i was like we want he was like we want to stay and she was like no thank you she's like they were like so we went back and they were like no she can't stay she's gotta go yes we've already decided and they tried to separate us

again and he was like no I'm not being separated again. This has already happened. I mean, the emotional turmoil of this is just absurd. I mean, it's unfathomable. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. It's crazy.

Like. Yes. Yeah. So, so they tried to separate us again and they tried. Like physically, like. Physically, yes. Yeah. And I was like, no, you can't separate us.

And, and security was involved like we were in the security office when this was happening and then we wound up like staying at the travel lodge for the night because they wouldn't let us go back into our room and get our stuff to leave and then when we woke up in the morning from the travel lodge which we had to like get money from my parents to be able to even have money to stay there. So you get into contact with them and tell them what's going on. Yes. Yeah. And my dad did say at the time, he said, if they don't let you leave, I'll come there and get you. And then so when we woke up in the morning from the travel lodge and we're like, how are we going to sort this out?

Like there was a whole like basically they were already there the chief of security of the la base was there with a u-haul full of all of our stuff that was like in these meticulously packed boxes with an inventory of which box every single thing was in like down to like q-tips and like condoms oh my god it was, so weird. And he was, like, basically, like, gave us the U-Haul and was, like, said, Dallas, I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure you never, ever speak to your family again. And then basically, like, left after he, like, told me that I was a piece of crap. And I was like, yeah, yeah, go fuck yourself. God, these people are so deep. Yeah.

So then and then we went down to San Diego to his parents' house. But then when we looked at like basically it was paid for us to drive all the way to Virginia where my parents lived. And I didn't even realize that that's where they expected us to go once Dallas was leaving. Well, your parents are in Virginia now, not Mexico. Right, yeah. Sorry, at some point in the middle they had moved to Mexico. Quite a change. Yeah, sorry.

Mind you tell. Anyways, so they had expected us to go to Virginia and not to San Diego. And so because Dallas's family were active Scientologists and so us being in contact with them like made it so they couldn't do Scientology and they didn't want us to like poison the field for them. And so, yeah. So we drove down to San Diego that night and his mom was really happy to see us and his dad was kind of like, oh, shit, like we're in trouble. Yeah. But if you guys went down there, his parents, the whole threat was that if he leaves, he's going to be disconnected from them. So had they been warned by like Mike Rinder's office or something that you guys were leaving and might be coming and they're supposed to turn you away?

Well, they hadn't been warned because they apparently thought that we were going to Virginia where my parents were. So I think that that Mike Rinder and them didn't realize that we were we would be going to San Diego. But don't they have to think there's a possibility that you might say, fuck it, we're going to make a break for it. Like they don't have control over you. Right. Yes. Yeah, I think that they did think that. And I think that Dallas's dad like kind of immediately kind of reported it in and was like, what am I supposed to do? And I think they reached out to him as well. Because when we returned the U-Haul, they probably saw where it was because they had paid for it. And they realized that we were there and you know i didn't know it at the time but like recently these documents that mike rinder had um from that time like um that have kind of like recently been made known publicly they kind of document all the things that they were doing all the behind the scenes things that they were talking with dallas about um that they were doing, all the behind the scenes things that they were talking with Dallas about, that they were like having people like scout Dallas's parents house and they were like, you know, their car is there. And like, but we'll wait till they leave before we go in and talk to

Dallas's parents and just all this stuff. But yeah, I mean, I guess something that should have been, like, really, like, climactic, like, oh, we finally left. It's a relief, you know, we're not there anymore. Kind of just, and while it kind of was like that, it was just straight to we're living with Dallas's parents at the time, just, like, being harassed every night. Are they being, like, but they're being punished for this right because they're letting you stay there no they're can trying to convince us 24 7 to go back or to get the confessional that we would have to get in order to be in good standing with scientology and we're trying to tell them all the things that happen there and they don't either don't believe us or don't care and they're trying to tell us that well if if Scientology technology was applied

correctly this would not be happening oh my god and it was just so annoying to be being told this by a public Scientologist when I'd been in the Sea Org my whole life like I just like wanted to strangle him the whole time yeah because he I mean he's a pleb compared to you. Exactly. Yeah. And so it was just like, so frustrating. And then once again, they were feeling like I was the bad person taking their angel son out of Scientology. And then, you know, they were slowly convincing Dallas to pay the freeloader bill, which basically any course, any studying that you did or auditing you received while in the Sea Org, because you're breaking your billion-year contract, you then have to pay for it, like pay regular prices. How much was your bill?

So they didn't give it to me right away. And I actually don't remember because when I saw it, it didn't make any difference to me. I was like, I'm never going to pay that. Like there was never one second where I even remotely considered that I would ever pay that. So maybe if I had considered it, then I would remember, but I just didn't care. So, um, um, but in, in order to remain a Scientologist in good standing, who can speak to your family still and do courses, you, you have to pay it. And they were trying to convince us to pay it. And so they owned a jewelry store.

So we worked there and then we lived with them. And basically it just amounted to me getting harassed all day and all night by them to – and they were being called by Scientology all the time reporting on us talking to Dallas separately having him try to convince me to finish my confessionals and so on and he was telling them some of the horror stories too right yeah he was telling them yeah and and again it's they either didn't believe it or they didn't care that's what's hard for me to accept now like when you hear stories of your son being held in a basement and how badly he was treated And they either didn't believe it or they didn't care. That's what's hard for me to accept now. Like when you hear stories of your son being held in a basement and how badly he was treated, like I don't understand how you can still continue to give money to and defend the organization.

But, I mean, yeah. Because they're brainwashed. For sure. It's just like so this is a level where it's like but they lived in the regular world they were getting paid tons of money and and i i can i can empathize it's just like when i think of me getting unbrainwashed when i was like born there i'm like come on like right and i'm like and and and i understand beingwashed, but we're talking about your son. We're talking about your son here.

It's not just something you saw that you didn't like. We're talking about how your child was getting treated. I think that I just have like a little bit of a bitchy attitude about that. No, it's perfectly understandable. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, so it was just like went on for months and years and years you're in there yeah well so we moved out of their house like after like six months but stayed working for them i actually got a different job too so um i worked at a healthy dog food company so when we moved to

our apartment we got um two dogs and it was kind of like having kids for me it was like the first time i was able to have our own apartment have you been around pets before at the ranch we had like eight dogs and they followed us around everywhere and it was kind of like yeah so i loved dogs and um yeah so we had two little dogs and um and just like when i was able to have my own job and get away, but Dallas still worked there. And so – but he slowly started reading things on the internet more and more. And there were people who we knew that had left. And their stories were kind of like fresh.

And he sort of became more and more disillusioned but before we moved we actually like his dad wind up convincing us to go back to Scientology and get what's called the committee of evidence which is sort of like a court martial they have like it's like a little trial I guess yeah and so it's like a little trial that they do and they accuse you of all the things that they think you did and you plead guilty or not guilty. And just like I was just like I absolutely hated doing it. Like I did not want to go there. I was not believing in Scientology at all.

So it's like almost like it hurt me physically because I but I had to do it for Dallas's dad's sake for Dallas's sake. And it was just like excruciating. And then, I don't know, there's all these stories like when we were working there, like Dallas got this call in the middle of the day that was like, I'm just a good Samaritan, but I want you to know you're being followed. And you've been, your wife has been to the hairdresser. She's been here. And it just, Scientology was following us everywhere we were going. Someone with a police scanner called us who heard them talking to each other to tell us. Are these hired private investigators who aren't Scientologists,

but they're hired by Scientology, or are they private investigators who also happen to be Scientologists? I think that they're hired by Scientology. Yeah. And I think at first maybe some, like, OSA was looking at Dallas's parents' house to see if we were there. See, like, I know money's green and I know, you know, capitalism exists and whatever, but these guys can take so many goddamn jobs and they take it with an organization that,

I mean, these dudes have brains. They're not in it, so they know what it is. They take it. I mean, I guess some of you guys do take it with evil people, but they're taking it from an organization that is, that is objectively trying to torture people and ruin their lives. I don't, I mean, I just think there's a special place in hell for that. Yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah exactly and it was just like months after months of this until finally we moved out and got some uh freedom i think they tried to declare us suppressive people and then they did give us a freeloader debt i don't even remember what it was but then you shredded it yeah i mean i was but dallas wanted to pay it and what it was, but then. You shredded it? Yeah. I mean, I was like, but Dallas wanted to pay it.

And then it was kind of like for a little bit, I was like living with somebody who I was like, he thinks, like, I was like, if you take our money and you give it to them, like, that's not going to happen. Like, it was just like kind of being back when he was being tricked by them. Anyway, so thankfully he started reading stuff on the internet. He started reading stuff about L. Ron Hubbard when we watched the South Park thing oh you did yeah now what's that like were there did you learn things in there that you didn't know yeah I didn't know any of that I didn't know any I mean I never heard about Xenu and all that crap when I was in there because I hadn't reached you hadn't gotten that yes exactly yeah so like i was afraid to watch it because i was like there's still this lingering thing like because they tell

you if you learn it before you're ready to you can like die or like get cancer or turn crazy or something oh my god and i was like and then i think so i tested it on Dallas. Yeah. He threw him to the lambs. He watched it first. To the wolves. He deserved it at this point. Oh, my God. He watched it first and he was like, oh, my God, you have to watch this. So we watched it and we're like, oh, my God, like that's so dumb.

Yeah. But in the end, like it was kind of a big deal, but also like not that big of a deal because I could see myself believing that at the time. And we believe all sorts of other stuff. So prison plan and all that. Yeah. It was just like, oh, God. And I remember going through a period of time when I was like, okay, I no longer believe this. Now I need to start thinking about all the things that I'm taking for granted and see what I really think about them. Do I think that I'm a thetan? And I would just like have to sit with it for a

few days and like, just like think about it. And this time Dallas was like unbrainwashed and he was like, okay, no, this is all ridiculous. And L. Ron Hubbard was a con man and he sort of came around. But his parents were still in, still causing trouble, still trying to separate us. Scientology was putting all this pressure on them and yeah. But so you've – I want to make sure I'm still understanding this right. I might have missed this. You left the Sea Org but you guys are still technically Scientologists.

Or he is. Dallas is. I'm sorry. Well, so what Scientology was putting pressure on Dallas' parents for was to disconnect from us at this point. Yeah. Because we were declared suppressive people. Both of you are. Yes.

Even though they didn't send an issue out because it would be bad PR, we were essentially declared. Okay. And they were trying to get them to disconnect from us and they were, and Dallas's parents still felt like they could handle us to be in Scientology

and so they still constantly tried. And then there became a point when I think it was when a, it was like, there was a biography about Tom Cruise written by Andrew Morin. Yeah. It was unauthorized. Yep. Right. Yeah. And it came out and, and in it, it talked about the RPF, all these things about Scientology separating people from families. And basically from that, Scientology released a statement that said that Scientology loves families. All of this is nonsense. The RPF doesn't exist. And like disconnection doesn't exist. And at the time, I was going through this with Dallas's family. And I was like, I was just so pissed off at how arrogantly and blatantly they were lying to everybody.

Meanwhile, doing this every day. That's right. Trying to make my life even harder than it already was when they could have just left us alone. And so I like wound up like writing this letter to the girl who had written the letter and like i put it on an anti-scientology blog and and then it wound up like getting picked up by some media and i was basically just saying that no scientology does disconnect people from their families everything they're writing here is bullshit and um and yeah i just kind of like called them out and that's a that's a big deal coming from you too because of who you

are right yeah at the time yes definitely now what kind of blowback did you get from them for that um they mostly tried to so so at that, they didn't talk to me directly. They just had us followed. And then there was someone in our lives who we thought was our friend and it wound up that he was like sort of implanted in our lives by them. It was somebody who we knew in the Sea Org and he had left and we let him stay with us because he was having a hard time. But it turned out that he was reporting everything back to them. Oh, my God. But mostly they were putting pressure on Dallas' parents to disconnect from us, which they had all but succeeded in, like just barely.

And then we started going on some like a few TV shows and like doing interviews. And it was great, but it was also they kind of wound up turning everything into being about Tom Cruise. Like I would talk to them for like hours and they'd be like, like ask me some question about Tom Cruise. And then they'd like soundbite that. And it was, so it was also really frustrating, but whatever. Like some of the word was getting out there and it was better than nothing. And then I wound up being on, like I was like recording with Nightline. And Dallas's family somehow found out about this.

And then so they were like meeting with Scientology and they and wanted to meet up with us and convince us not to do it. So we like met with them in a Denny's. At first I said, no, I'm not going to meet with them. Yeah. I couldn't do a better place than a Denny's. I know. The waiter there was like, what the fuck? Yes, exactly. I know the waiter there was like what the fuck yes exact and they were like trying to like show me all these Scientology policies like about you're acting this way because you've done bad

things and I was like guys guys I don't give a shit like those policies like throw them in the trash they mean nothing to me yeah nothing and then Dallas's parents were there were like well they mean something blah blah and I was just like my God, I'm fucking surrounded by crazy people. And so like, I kind of said to them, and they were people who I knew. So I was like, when was the last time you had a day off? And they were like, we don't need time off. We love working very, very hard. And I was like, I was like, guys, like, come on. I'll bet you do. Yeah. And so they were like, so they're like, well, what do we need to do to make it so this doesn't happen? And I was like, well, you need to undeclare my aunt Sarah, like make her not declare a suppressive person. And I was like, and you need to let CRM members have time off. And I like made all these ridiculous rules, which they were never going to follow. And they're like, we'll think about it. All right.

But don't do, don't tell anyone about this meeting. Good thinking. I'll be at Dateline. Exactly. Yeah. So when we drove away the next day, we were being followed again. And I was like, fuck you guys. Like, no, I just like continued with it. I never spoke with them again. So it's like the Nightline that came out, like soon after, it was when Anonymous started speaking out about Scientology. There had been some clip of Tom Cruise on the internet and Scientology tried to get it taken down because it was embarrassing and he was acting psycho. And Anonymous like kind of was like saying that they were going to take down Scientology because of them censoring the internet.

And then, you know, and then I guess so that was kind of happening at the same time as me speaking out. And there were protests happening like sort of around the world from Anonymous. And then me and two other girls created this site called xscientologykids.com and it sort of became a forum where people could speak openly about their experiences in Scientology growing up. And yeah, so then at that point I was kind of like an outspoken critic. At this point though are you also – because you're out doing a job. You're out in the real world. You're starting to get used to things so i'm sure there's some stuff that's a shock i mean you and i could be here for like

the next week to talk about everything i know we obviously can't have time today to go through all that but like you're making friends in the real world who have nothing to do with scientology right yes definitely yeah and so coming out though, I didn't know how to drive. I didn't have a bank account. Oh, that's right. I was, like, I wasn't, like, I was still, like, just trying to act like a normal person. Like, I wasn't used to going to the grocery store. I had to learn how to cook. And, but, like, so the few people that I worked with who I would tell a little bit of my story to, like, they were, like, what did you say?

They were, like, that's not normal and i was like no shit sherlock yes but they were all so like nice of course and so supportive and that was something that you didn't experience in scientology if you ever said anything bad about anything in scientology specifically scientology was like you they taught you that you were saying it because you had done something bad. You only said bad things if you had done something bad and you were trying to make less of the thing you did something bad to by saying how bad it is. I don't even know if that made sense, but you're trying to justify the bad thing you did by belittling the target of the bad thing you did. And so it was like nice to be able to speak openly

and to be believed for literally once in my life about something I had experienced. Everything I always said or anytime I like, you know, it's not like I had parents who I could tell if something bad happened or anyone who I could really go to, nobody cared. And so it was like the first time that I was like listened to and met with like empathy and kindness.

And that was just like a huge deal to me. Like it just felt like. Absolutely. Yeah. Like being validated and yeah. And so and I think that that kind of sort of made me calm down from the like hyper over explaining and anxiety of not being believed and trying to fight everything. Yeah. Because you're learning a whole new world too. And you don't know how people are going to react. Had your grandparents left by this point too? No, my grandpa didn't leave until many years

later. Like even 2012? Yes, about then. And by that time, I was like already writing my book. Yeah, your book came out in 2013, right? Yes. So he was out when the book came out. Yes. But he was still very pro Scientology at the time and he wasn't talking to me at that time because I was bad. I was a suppressive person. So he was just out of the Sea Org, but still a Scientologist. Well, because of who he was, he wasn't welcome in Scientology, but he still mentally believed in Scientology. And that process was harder for him as somebody who like, you know, would have gotten his whole family into Scientology. Yeah, his whole life. Yeah, exactly.

So that's a lot harder to like back out from when you're that old and you spent that many years in it and you've gotten that many people into it. Well, in the meantime, before he gets out in these years between like 05 and 2012, you obviously had reconnected with your parents right when you were getting out. But did you get a chance to rebuild your relationship with your parents, maybe your brother, even your aunt? Yes, there was definitely some time for that. And some of it went great and some of it didn't. Like I guess I think that like when you set a goal for yourself that you're going to like rebuild everything and everything is going to be fine. Like you kind of can't ever relive your childhood.

Like you actually can't get it back. Like honestly, there's nothing you can do. You can just maybe build something new that is valuable. And so I think that we did that, but we definitely had our ups and downs and craziness continue and never ends. But it's definitely better than it was. Did you have – I mean we talked about this last night with Aaron, but, you know, did you resent? Did you have the emotions come up like resenting them for being born into this and them bringing you into it? So at first I did not have anything like that.

They helped me get out and I was extremely grateful and I understood why they were there and all that. I think that I started to feel a little bit differently about it when I had my own kids when was that um so my son was born in 2009 and I my you know so my initial reaction wasn't resentment or anything like that because they you know my parents were very helpful with my kids and they were involved. But it just like kind of, I guess it became, and you know what? There isn't any resentment until I guess, I guess it's hard for me to talk about my story without on some level my mom feeling like I'm insulting her. And it's like kind of like I feel like I go out of my way to not make it personal

and to be as kind about it and understanding about it as I can. But it's like I guess it's her choice if she's going to make it all about her rather than me telling my story. And so that's something that we have struggled with. She's both been supportive and both been like thinking that I'm only trying to drag her, which I'm not trying to do. I want her to be happy. I want her to have a good life. And, and it's so, so it's almost the things that happen in the, the now that make it hard to forgive. The rest I can forgive. I don't care. But, yeah, it's the same person that did those things.

Yeah. And so there are still going to be some of those tendencies. Many of them go away, but it's still the same person. Yeah. I mean, I think we were saying something similar and talking about Erin's situation last night, but you know, it's like the conscious in her is beating down the subconscious of knowing that like your life doesn't have to turn out the way it did for a long time,

if not for her. But then there's like, you know, the motherly instinct, there's like denial with that. And I, you know, that's a human thing. I can't imagine being in that position, but. Right, exactly. And I haven't been in that position. And I think that like, I don't know, maybe if I was, I would feel differently. So in the end, I just want my mom to be happy. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. So. How's your relationship with your dad? It's good. Like, I mean, me and my dad were closer growing up. Yeah. So but it's not like, you know, exactly the same as like, I don't know, maybe your relationship is with your dad, not to assume anything. But like, yeah.

So it's like decent. Yeah. And then with I mean, with your kids, it's got to be it's got to be a really cool full circle life to see that your kids get to grow up normal and they don't have to deal with all this. Yeah. Like in, in, it's like actually healing. Like, so like in some way, like being able to give the things that I didn't have is almost the same as me getting them. Yes. Like it's like, that's a great way to put it. Yeah, yeah. Except I think I did take it too far and feel like if I mess up or if I do anything wrong, then I, like, would have all this anxiety that I'm repeating the cycle. And I've had to, like, come to a middle ground where it's like, okay, you're doing the best you can. And, like, and I just have to, like, learn not to, like, like, make myself the Sea Org member of parents.

Like, I need to, I need to remember myself and that I'm important, too, and not throw everything I have into being a parent to the point where I don't sleep, I don't eat, I don't have a life. Because I had so much anxiety about repeating the cycle. And then I realized that I'm the one who got like kind of fucked over from the beginning, so I need to take care of myself. And I guess like so now I'm just kind of finding that balance of doing both. That's great, though. I mean, it's like we were saying earlier. It's a lifelong journey in a way because you're undoing 21 years of, I mean, that's your whole development.

Right. It's so impressive. Like, you know, cause conversing with you guys over the last couple of days, it looks like you're doing great. Gotta be honest with you. You see, you see, I would never know that you guys were in something like this for so many years. If I just met you off the street, which I can imagine it took a while to get there. Thank you for saying that. That is good to know. because I remember when I first left I was like I talked to that person I was like I think they thought I was normal

I think I tripped them these conversations are very valuable for people to hear because it reminds me like how lucky I am to have grown up in a normal type situation. And it also, I think, as I was saying in our conversation last night, I think it's a good reminder that all of us are susceptible to falling under the thumb of

something like this. It's not like you have a choice when you're born into it, but you know, your, your parents fell into it. so many other people do and and you should shine a light on it you should talk about what where there's evil in the world i mean i think there's no doubt about it it's you know we can laugh at some of the things scientology does because like some of it's objectively funny but uh to live it is not you know it's it's i i really feel like it's the root of evil. Right. Yeah.

And I think that if it was just like some silly beliefs about aliens or whatever, it's like no big deal. Who cares? People can believe what they want. But I think that the reason why we talk about it is because it's not just that. It's about human trafficking and kids getting treated in a certain way and ruining families. So they can believe what they want. Like I don't have a problem with that. Just like they can't do things that are illegal and hurt people all the time

and get away with it. Well, I hope to see it. I hope to see more conversations like this happen publicly. Obviously, I love what you're doing with the channel and everything. So, you know, maybe one day something like that won't exist. That would be really cool. I think that would be a win. And, you know, the two of you also helping people leave Scientology and being able to relate to that is really I do have to get you out of here. Otherwise I'd keep going, but your book is going to be down link in description for people to check that out. And also I would actually recommend that that 60 minutes short that you did was really, really good. So maybe we should put that link down there as well. I like

that a lot, but thank you so much for, for sharing everything. You did an amazing job explaining it. Thank you. Thanks so much for having me and listening. Of course. Of course. Hey, Ron, thanks for putting it together, my brother. All right. Everybody else, you know what it is. Give it a thought.

Get back to me. Peace. Thank you guys for watching the episode. Before you leave, please be sure to hit that subscribe button and smash that like button on the video. It's a huge help. And also, if you're over on Instagram, be sure to follow the show at Julian Dory Podcast or also on my personal page at Julian D. Dory. Both links are in the description below. Finally, if you'd like to catch up on our latest episodes, use the Julian Dory Podcast playlist link in the description below.

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