Julian Dorey Podcast - #240 - UFO Physical Evidence, Aliens & The Vatican, Nazi Secret Experiments | Jesse Michels

Episode Date: October 4, 2024

SPONSORS: This episode is sponsored by/brought to you by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at https://betterhelp.com/julian and get on your way to being your best self. (***TIMESTAMPS in description below) ~ Jesse Michels is a Venture Capitalist, YouTuber, & UFO / Esoterica Historian & Journalist. Currently, Jesse invests for Silicon Valley Magnate, Peter Thiel. He also hosts a show on YouTube called “American Alchemy,” where he has interviewed Jacques Vallee, Hal Puthoff, Eric Weinstein, Danny Sheehan, Graham Hancock, James Fox –– and many more notable individuals. EPISODE LINKS - PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/JulianDorey    - MERCH: https://juliandorey.myshopify.com/   - AMAZON STORE: https://amzn.to/3RPu952   GUEST LINKS - YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/@JesseMichels  - X: https://x.com/AlchemyAmerican  - IG: https://www.instagram.com/jessemichels/?hl=en  FOLLOW JULIAN DOREY INSTAGRAM (Podcast): https://www.instagram.com/juliandoreypodcast/   INSTAGRAM (Personal): https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey/   X: https://twitter.com/julianddorey  JULIAN YT CHANNELS - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Clips YT: https://www.youtube.com/@juliandoreyclips    - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Daily YT: https://www.youtube.com/@JulianDoreyDaily    - SUBSCRIBE to Best of JDP: https://www.youtube.com/@bestofJDP    Get $150 Off The Eight Sleep Pod Pro Mattress / Mattress Cover (USING CODE: “JULIANDOREY”): https://eight-sleep.ioym.net/trendifier ****TIMESTAMPS**** 0:00 - Sliding into Peter Thiel’s DMs 10:20 - Why Jesse started a Physics, UFOlogy & Esoteric Channel 13:59 - Jesse sees a UFO (story) 17:58 - When Jesse first got into UFOs; Diana Walsh Pasulka 22:55 - Can Aliens Simulate us viewing them? 28:20 - Aliens, Religion, Gnosticism, Jesus & God 33:40 - The Knights Templar 38:54 - Alien “Holy Wars” & The Bible; Diana Pasulka on UFO & God Connection 47:30 - The Vatican, Science, Religion, Multiverse & UFOs 54:56 - The Vatican Bank; Attitudes & Religion 58:27 - Jacques Vallee 1:01:49 - Vallee, Garry Nolan, Hal Puthoff & UFO Crash Retrieval Evidence 1:11:18 - Garry Nolan’s Basal Ganglia Work 1:14:12 - UFOs relation to time, space & gray aliens (future humans) 1:19:37 - Michio Kaku’s time travel theory 1:21:49 - UFOs, Nuclear Bases & the future humans argument 1:27:22 - Gravity, Time Dilation & General Relativity 1:33:09 - Eric Weinstein, String Theory & Physics Ivory Towers Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You brought up a lot of amazing research today about anti-gravity and projects that were going on in the 50s and 60s. But it starts in Nazi Germany. Yeah. Yeah. And do you know about like Kammlerstab? Have you heard of that? Fill me in. So there's this SS officer named Hans Kammler. He's the most ruthless Nazi. Like Albert Speer, who's head of all armaments for the Nazis, said, Hans Kammler is the most most ruthless unscrupulous guy

I was forced to collaborate with you're talking about it the Nazis worked with like Hitler and Kerbals and you know Himmler and he's saying that this guy is like the craziest most reasons get by 1945 Hans Kalmer was in charge of all aerial armaments for the Nazis v2s a4s everything and he had this secret weapons program called Kammlerstab or Škoda Works. And it was based in two places, in Czechoslovakia and Poland. You had these three scientists, Richard Mita, who was doing high voltage stuff, which is very similar to what Townsend Brown was doing. Rudolf Schreiber, who was this German technician who had a design for flying saucer. And you had another guy named Viktor Schauberger, who lived in Austria,

who we know he said in his diaries, it says, it was a letter to his son he says i'm in czechoslovakia and what i'm doing is top secret so go to works was like a real thing and at the same time you had foo fighters which are these controlled balls of lightning with no vapor trails moving in and out of allied fighter flight pass and so you originally around 45, it was thought that Kammler died or disappeared. And now we know actually from a couple of declassified documents that Kammler ended up in the U.S. Of course he did. And that we took him back. What's up, guys? If you're on Spotify right now, please follow the show so that you don't miss any future episodes and leave a five-star review.

Thank you. Jesse Michaels, this is like 11 months in the making, my friend. Truly is. It's an honor to be here. Dude, thanks so much for coming, man. Thank you, Julian. We've had some good phone calls. We have.

We have. We have. You are without a doubt in the ufology space alone, but I would expand that and say within someone who's not literally a physicist or something like that. In that space, you're the most well-read person I've seen creating content. Have you watched some of those guys' videos where every other line, it's like, if you've ever read the book so-and-so, I'm like'm like god damn it where do you get the time to read all i've usually read half of those books or like three quarters or like i don't know i i think uh sometimes you've probably you know given your line of work we do very similar things you get into a topic you get so obsessed and you just need to find the answer from a specific book and then you end up like finding out all this other information and so i feel like i read a lot of books not honestly in this like leisurely way but like i'm like rummaging through them for like specific stuff and then you end up picking up a lot in the process and so i don't know that's what i got before i ever did this podcast that's what i got to do like reading is my favorite thing to do but

it's been like four and a half years of just like there's constantly something going on and and i when i read i fall asleep with it on with the kindle on my face you know at night after like two pages and it's killing me because i used to be able to not maybe not on your level but i used to be able to be like yeah if you read this book or read that now i'm like'm like, I got to catch the fuck up now. It's crazy. But how did you, a lot of people on the internet kind of wonder about your background and how you ended up, you know, you're not old, knowing all this stuff about this space and really being a thought leader and get to your connections with David Grush and all that. Sure.

But how'd you even end up working with Peter Thiel, investing his money? How does this happen? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's funny. Nobody really asked me that on podcast. I cold reached out to him and then we got lunch and hit it off. And yeah, and I pitched him on all sorts of things in that first meeting.

I was like, we should write a book together. And I had all these crazy ideas. And I think he looked at me and he was like, you're insane. Like, what are you talking about? I just met you. Did you slide into his DMs? Is that what you did? I won't.

No, I didn't slide into his DMs. It was a conventional way of reaching out. But I won't say where because I don't want him to get blown up on whatever it is. But yeah, messaged him or emailed him or whatever you know who knows and uh for whatever reason he got back to me and i remember actually um i was like with a friend when he got back to me i was like i think peter teal just got back to me and he was like that's not him like what are you talking about i was at google at the time um how old are you? I was 25. Okay. And, and then yeah, kind of saw eye to eye on a bunch of things and pitch them on all sorts of things that made no sense. And we're like way above my pay

grade, like writing a book, you know, whatever. And then we kind of landed on he was like, okay, this kid has like some spunk, you know, he's kind of interested in a lot of things. He clearly like understands like some of my, you know, ideology. And I started to bring in opportunitiesunk you know he's kind of interested in a lot of things he clearly like understands like some of my you know ideology and uh i started to bring in opportunities you know companies to invest in interesting people to meet that sort of thing and that was almost like a de facto interview like i had known him for three or four months before getting a full-time job and then it kind of came to a breaking point where i was having so much more fun with the work i was doing with him versus being just like a bee in a hive, you know, cog in the machine at Google. And yeah, and then I've worked with him ever since,

full time for four years. And then for the last two and a half years, kind of have my own P&L that I invest out of through the family office, basically. Okay, so when you worked, were you with Founders Fund when you were working directly? Family family family so teal capital yeah so but now you're investing money through that that's your money and also like i do i do invest like a lot of my own money but it's uh you know nothing compared to what we invest you know right meaning you're allocating towards projects yeah exactly as a venture capital exactly and you could think of him as like the sole lp like he it's a family office so it's just his money and then i'm helping him by sourcing investments essentially yeah again

though like you know you've obviously if if you're impressing peter teal when you're 25 with like your eye for a company or like an idea there has to be obviously a lot of studious work that gets you that point but there has to be like an innate talent so with were you like one of those teenagers that was just like looking at the latest startup and trying to figure out what made it go you know i did like right before i met him i made like a princeton review of startups so it's like like when you're picking which college to go to, you have like the Princeton review. You have like the US News World Report or whatever. And these are mostly kind of BS or whatever.

But in certain cases, they give you information on which school you want to go to based on criteria that you're interested in. And I always thought if you're joining a startup you really are like you have to think like a vc you have to think like a venture capitalist like 90 of those are just not going to work out and so i was like bored of my job at google and so i was like reviewing a bunch of these startups like thinking about which ones i thought would do well and which ones i wouldn't at the time i had no idea what i was doing but i did that And then I also like for a little bit, I was sourcing, like I met Ashton Kutcher randomly when I was at Google through some people, super random. But I was like scouting for Sound Ventures, his like venture capital group in LA.

Oh, that's right. He has that. Yeah, he has that. And he's actually like very serious about it. And so like, I don't know, I like, I had this deal with AngelList where if I sourced stuff for other VCs and other, other investors, like I could get some carry or something. So I had, I had that for a brief period and I didn't even do any deals with it. It was like two or three months before meeting Peter and I was doing the reviews and stuff. So I was getting into it, but I was at Google. I was like, you know, an employee at a big tech company. So, uh, I don't know, man.

Yeah, it's kind of crazy. I feel very lucky. And a lot of serendipity, I think, was involved. But even if you're like a cog on the wheel, so to speak, at a major company like that, you're still basically like coming out of college working at Google. You have access to learning about how things work on a level that you don't get at most, say, corporate places. No? For sure.

Definitely and I think the seeds of what I'm doing now with interviewing people were really planted. Maybe at Google actually before that, like in college, I interned for Charlie Rose and for Jon Stewart, The Daily Show and stuff. So, but. Who the fuck are you? What agency do you work for? What agency do you work for what agency do you work for

i think i think like the auto complete of like julian dory cia it was all one viral curly haired fuck that was it that's who we're talking about yeah that's who we were talking about before. Yeah, that's who we were talking about. I love you, Andrew. Yeah, I want to interview you. He sounds interesting. He's everywhere. He really is everywhere. So, yeah, so the seeds were probably planted earlier as far as interviewing people. But at Google, I was kind of getting a little bored in my job.

And I had a friend who basically ran talks at Google. So like the TED Talks at Google or whatever. And he was like, look, I know you're not the happiest in your job. If you want to bring in anybody who's like high profile or interesting, you just hit them up, bring them in, and I'll give you carte blanche. Like you can interview whoever you want as part of talks at Google. And so I just started to do that. And that was actually the context in which I got in touch with Peter is I was like, Hey, you should come in and, you know, speak at Google. Hey guys, for the next 45 minutes of this

conversation, Jesse and I went on a long tangent about things that have nothing to do with the rest of the podcast that you guys are here for and what clicked on. So he and I made a decision for me to put that on my Patreon. If you guys want to check that out, that link is in the description below. We're going to skip ahead now to exactly what you clicked on. Well, let's get to the fun stuff, Jesse. Let's do it, man. That's why I got you here. Awesome. You are the host of American Alchemy, and your channel is now officially called Jesse Michaels. You changed the name. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But the show is still American Alchemy.

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So show is still american alchemy yeah yeah okay so jesse michaels american alchemy we'll have the link in description and dude your sit downs are fucking amazing thank you man like like you are it makes sense that you were doing talks at google that's a pretty high level place with high level people to do it because as an interviewer you are excellent and you get a lot out of your people. Your most recent one, I think, was the Danny Sheehan one. Thank you for hooking him up to come in here. I'm looking forward to that. But that sit down was fucking amazing. And the amount of information you were able to get him to go into because of your own knowledge is extremely impressive. But, you know, I guess you laid out the history of it. You were talking with people

at Google and then you helped out Eric build the portal. But at what point were you like, hey, I'm really interested in, say, ufology, physics, and some esoteria if you will i want to go start my own channel yeah it was the pandemic hit eric stopped doing the portal and i think the pandemic for a lot of people is like this forcing function to like do what you're supposed to do in life and i had had that through line of like the toxic google the bringing in interesting speakers or whatever in the in the teal orbit and uh you know working for for Charlie Rose back in the day and for Jon Stewart and stuff. And so it was always this itch of like, maybe I could actually interview people myself and maybe start a show or something. But it was always kind of in the back of my head.

And then the pandemic hit, you find yourself with time. I think existential questions get pulled forward and Eric stops the portal and I'm like okay like you know maybe I'll maybe I'll try my own hand at this and there are a lot of these kind of fringe topics at the time that I don't even it wasn't like a cynical thing like oh I think this is going to get bigger I was just interested in it like like the UFO stuff I was just really like I think anomalies and science are kind of like tells on like what the next on the next paradigm. And so I viewed the UFO thing as like this very interesting like glitch in the fabric of reality that point to where we're going next. And so that just like took me down these crazy rabbit holes.

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a couple times in the past. If I hadn't had a true professional to vent to, someone who could really help me understand my emotions and make sense of them, I would have had a lot more trouble getting through those situations. So if you're thinking about starting therapy like I did, give BetterHelp a try.

BetterHelp is entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. All you have to do is fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist, and you can switch therapists at any time for no added charge. Take off the mask with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash Julian to get 10% off your first month today. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P.com slash Julian to get 10% off your first month. And you can find that link in my description below. And that was right around a time when in my life, I was experiencing like a lot of kind of trippy stuff. And so that, um, right when the pandemic hit,

I like saw a couple of UFOs actually like in a short period of time and uh where one was in Laurel Canyon where I lived in LA and kind of crazy and then um the other was in Silver Lake actually and then I guess I saw a third but that was like far in the distance and uh so like that was a little more unclear. What did you see? In each case. Well, let's start with the first one. Yeah.

So Laurel Canyon, it was actually – it's a really trippy story. I was walking with this girl I was kind of dating at the time, beautiful Costa Rican girl, really nice. And we were walking and for whatever reason like alien like one of us brings up aliens like do you believe in aliens and i was like yeah like i'm i'm actually kind of interested in that and she was like i definitely believe in aliens and i was like i would love to like be an alien that'd be awesome like we're just i don't know like messing around and um she's like it'll happen when you least expect it and I'm like what I'm like that interesting but like you know that was like this really interesting like point that she was kind of

like this philosophical point that she was making and we're walking by a guy who has a metal detector and he's like I don't know like like like panning for gold or something but it's in Laurel Canyon and it's like it's sundown it's like I don't know 6 30 or 7 for gold or something, but it's in Laurel Canyon. And it's like, it's sundown. It's like, I don't know, 630 or seven or something. Like it makes like no sense. Like why is this guy with like a metal detector? He's like looking for it as she's saying, like this will happen when you stop looking for it.

And so like we walk by this guy and I'm like, okay, like cool. We like move on to other subjects or whatever. And we're having like a great time. And I just see like this clearing, like the you know the world canyon's full of trees so this little clearing and just this crazy craft not like a uh um not like a a circular craft like it looks like a school bus or something in the air it's the weirdest looking thing i've had a couple of people who have told the story to send me like possible analogs of this thing since but it looked like nothing i could just ever explain how close maybe 50 60 feet like not far

yeah and it just like goes over the treetops and i'm like what the hell is that and then she says that she saw it keep going over the treetops and then like vertically descend like down yeah and i i didn't see that part um but like yeah that was like a really trippy experience where i was like what the hell was that and this is just a regular walk it's just a regular sober chilling sober chilling yeah not on anything um yeah i mean you could like we could bring her on she's still a friend of mine she would corroborate it yeah but so that's like 2020 or this was 2020 yeah 2020 yeah this is 20 because it was after the pandemic yes so like that happens yeah is there a moment the next day where you're like holy fuck where does that happen like right

away where you're like holy fuck no right i mean right away you're like this isn't saying like what is this but it weirdly i think if you're into the topic it was more like confirming it was like okay like at that point i had like been plugged in and like i had met jacques valet and i met gary nolan some of these people and like i i had felt like you know okay this stuff is real and so it wasn't like insanely ontologically shocking it was more like confirming it was more like oh you really, you really should look into this stuff because I think this stuff is really real. When was the first – like I always say when we're talking about this topic, I had not – my whole life I just assumed aliens existed. It was mathematically like this galaxy is fucking huge.

There's life out there. Never thought about it. Yeah. It wasn't like I was sitting there like, wow, I wonder where they are. And then my producer, Alessi, who's not here today, he went and made Moment of Contact with James Fox in Brazil. Yeah. And I was really getting to know him well at the time. And he knew so much about this stuff. And he really got me.

I'm like, oh, fuck. He got me a bit. And so I really started looking into it and looking at the history of it or whatever. But like were you someone as a little, even like as a little kid? And so I really started looking into it and looking at the history of it or whatever. But like were you someone as a little – even like as a little kid, you were reading up on this and things? Like it was always there or did it really come later once you were meeting the Jacques Vallées of the world? Not any UFOs. I always – I think I had like a trippy worldview.

Like I didn't think of it as that. But I had this godfather who like writes books with my dad so my dad's like a self-help author and psychologist and my godfather is this guy named Phil Stutz who Jonah Hill actually made a Netflix documentary about and he's just like really trippy psychiatrist who like is very interested in like rudolf steiner and i don't know if you're familiar with this it's like um 19th 19th century and early 20th century austrian philosopher but he's very interested in like esotericism and has like this like wacky alternative worldview that involves the arc of the covenant like different like civilizational cycles like he's claimed to like be like kind of clairvoyant and like see like lights around people's head, like really trippy stuff. But then

he's also like one of the forefathers of like modern organic farming techniques. So I always look for like the intersection between rigor and trippy. I think there's a lot of the trippy woo stuff and you can kind of like out of, you know, out of hand dismiss a lot of that stuff. But when you see like trippy and you know um also rigorous and like how the person's contributed to the real world like that that that's always been very interesting you know as a heuristic and so i was into into steiner and like i'd you know read some of this stuff but i'd always compartmentalize it i was always like you know this is like this this stuff's real over here like i was a history major and like you know uh uh always very ambitious and like a worldly

sense and then the trippy stuff that was just like kind of like a fun thing or something and then i think the two started to cohere maybe a little pre-pandemic like i i'd read american cosmic by diana pasulka she's this um religious scholar uh religious studies professor from UNC Wilmington. And she wrote about the UFO thing as like a modern kind of religious phenomena. And she wrote – it's such a trippy book, man, because like the first half of the book is like this almost like literary critique of modern ufology where it's like this thing was like built in like a Disney studio it's like a sigh out like like media like shades the way we perceive and recollect a lot of these UFO experiences which by the way I do believe but you you you're halfway through the book and you're like oh this is like not a real thing like this is this is fully fabricated and constructed this is like a deep state thing or

whatever they want you to believe in UFO whatever maybe it's like experiment with cult creation or like look at like belief system i don't know there are various ways you could spin it you know tech protection whatever um and then like halfway through you realize she's actually like starting to go down into like the rabbit hole of like ufo stuff and like the the observer and the observed like kind of like you know meld or whatever and like all of a sudden she doesn't have like this impartial distance and like she becomes this like ufo convert in a sense herself and it's just such a like mind it's like really is is this trippy thing you did a great podcast with her well i mean you do like documentaries that was a great documentary interview sit down thank you diana she's she's the she's the best she's awesome and uh i think

she's almost in some sense like a modern mystic or something herself like she's clearly like this intense truth seeker um so i think the two cohered like around you know the the kind of trippy random you know history of intellectual history and then the the UFO stuff really cohered around the pandemic. And interestingly, I think there were a record number of UFO sightings in 2020 as well, just like in mass and large. I think the pandemic itself, when you pause and you evaluate your life and you're like at home and you're not like in this like kind of busy mindset, I think you start to

experience maybe an expanded world view and you start to think about like some of these deeper existential questions and you know maybe maybe interact with other worlds or other timelines or you know i don't quite know how this stuff works we can get into some of the theoretical models as well but um i definitely experienced that myself. What do you think – when you look at the potential that an advanced civilization, whether it be aliens or future humans who I think by my definitions are aliens as well, the fact that they allegedly show themselves let's even assume that 99 percent of of claimed sightings aren't real that still leaves you know at least some that are real so if they show themselves and yet they're supposed to be this highly advanced society that could be invisible you know move at the speed of light see you can't be seen walk among us and not have people know it yet they'll have these little tin cans in the sky so to speak that defy gravity that at least we

could see i've always wondered if that's the kind of thing where they could fuck with us and they could simulate these things ahead of time i.e a ufo crash what kind of advanced civilization is crashing like a basic bitch crashing their fucking Maserati after having two drinks? You know what I mean? Yeah, totally. Couldn't they simulate that ahead of time to be like, for example, 1994, the Zimbabwe sighting. Let's see what happens when we put a couple little alien men in front of these six, seven,

eight year old kids back in the woods and have them have telepathy with each other and then extrapolate that to see what happens when the kids tell all the adults about it and how it affects society yeah do you think it's possible that they could be that and we're totally guessing here obviously it's totally theoretical but do you think it's possible that they could be like simulating that stuff ahead of time as a part of you know their interest in us as a that is a subject that is what i think yeah like if you're running experiments on like this like snow globe of like little like you know critters ants or something or like like like this idea of like cellular automata where we're all like nodes or something i think it's we don't know why these things are happening but if you wanted to sway you know society and some like different teleologies or whatever, like these things,

first of all, it has a lot of teleology, like, like a direction with meaning, but Peter Thiel take a phrase that he says or something. That's funny. Well, you know, Josie. Yeah, yeah, right. No, um no like like i think if you're trying to like sway society it's like if you're trying to get rats to run a prime number maze you could do it with pavlovian conditioning would the rats know that they're undergoing pavlovian conditioning they'd have no idea but like you would it's like this like you know more

intelligent species and so i think a lot of this stuff is inherently absurd it's high strangeness and how do you work on Consciousness on like the Consciousness layer like you would like you know it's like the the the um the Zen Cohen the sound of one hand clapping like that confuses you like that like what is that you know that that's this like phrase that like Jacques Valet himself like loves to bring up because it's like inherently this thing that scrambles your brain and you're like what what the hell and then you like think about it over and over and over again and so something that happens to you that's like inexplicable or absurd you know it's like a a glimpsing you know beyond the veil or whatever in the platonic sense where you know it's like a you know there's actually a guy named James Madden

who I want to interview who like writes about UFOs in this context it's like a you know there's actually a guy named james madden who i want to interview who like writes about ufos in this context it's like a hyper object outside of the cave that causes you to contemplate another world but it causes you to do it by literally like breaking all of your rational kind of priors and so i think it's clearly working on that meta layer like do i believe like the people who are like you know eisenhower in the 50s or whatever signed a treaty and it was like all the all the you know uh the nordics yeah right the nordics and the grays and like you know we we became medical experiment subjects or whatever for you know in return for like some advanced technology or stuff like that i don't i don't really think so i think it's working on our consciousness layer and i think

even some of the like weird you know possible physical implants which i'm vaguely sympathetic to without having like a ton of you know first-hand evidence i think you know you hear a lot of stuff around that you know even that would probably be more like just kind of fucking with us a little bit causing us to think a lot about what those things are what what what are their motives and you know what do they what do they want from us um and so yeah i think i think something clearly around consciousness is happening where we're being primed our consciousness is being primed and that's moving us into the next epoch whatever that means for humanity but i'll tell you one thing uh if you just look at tech and where it is, and where we are in our, you know, kind of primitive, you know, consciousness or whatever, it's not

going to work. Like this thing, you know, just a straight line, no teleology, you know, very bad, very destructive. Like that's just not good. We't we're gonna hit the great filter so um the optimistic take um and maybe there's a dual you know they're factions right maybe they're ones that are trying to enslave us and one's trying to raise our consciousness or whatever but like the optimistic streak of this is like it's causing you to like contemplate and think in a way that you wouldn't through like pure absurdity through like brain scrambling in a way that like will cause mankind to reach another level. Sure. But if you go like the enslaved angle, technically if we are the Pavlovian rats, that's a form of enslavement.

We just don't know it. Sure. Yeah, yeah. start to think of that and tie that to like consciousness and what that is yeah because of course where i go with this because my brain just that's what it thinks is it's like okay who who is god then and is there a god and is there something above all this and does that mean it's above an alien civilization in this way right like is there something that created all these things across the galaxy that could be like that last scene in men in black where it's just you know we are a speck of a speck of a speck of a speck you know like do you believe that there's like a creator that exists above everything i do yeah i believe me too yeah and i think if you look at most traditions they're

humans there's god and then they're beings on the way to god they're demigods they're angels're angels, they're all sorts of... And then they're like hybrids sometimes in the form of Nephilim or Zechariah, Sitchin, Zanunaki or whatever, which I'd place in another bucket than religions. But these are common tropes is what I'm trying to say. It's actually unusual to find a tradition in which there's nothing between man and and god and in certain cases you have a taxonomy of angel hierarchies as well whether it's saint thomas aquinas or you know syrian neoplatonist the amblicus or you know you have a lot of these guys sort of you know uh with like specific angels kind of like uh uh literally descriptors next to them and stuff it's pretty interesting

do you do you think some of religion could be i'm saying this very broadly but do you think some organized religion could be like a pretty good pretty good set of stories that are a useful distraction to kind of replicate our not replicate but like understand our our meaning while we're here yes but i would say it less cynically because i think in some ways yeah we might be seeing the source code or whatever i wouldn't call the source code aliens because we it's unclassifiable we don't know what these things are but like whatever we're more scientifically investigating is probably the underlying thing between a lot behind a lot of these religions but that should make one cynical because i think you can have two things simultaneously be true you can have

um you know one faction of these sort of you know aliens or or angels or demons or whatever trying to stoke uh violence and cause us to you know be enslaved cause us to like stay with like lower consciousness or whatever and then you could have another faction uh that uses religion as an as an initiation path and uh you know is uh i think if you look at you know it's like i i'm sympathetic to a lot of the ideas that like like jesus for example kind of misdirected a lot of people and like yeah like john locke wrote a book called um you know the reasonableness of christianity and you know uh even the concept of musteria you know this greek word for you know religious mystery it's just uh it's literally only for the disciples the disciples will know the truth

and then nobody else will you know is ready for the truth you have to have ears to hear the truth and i'm just using christianity as an example but i think there are others um and so that that to me that model which also like william james and the um you know varieties of religious experience kind of talks about as well this idea of kind of like maybe some sort of inner circle you know and then you know kind of outer rings you know the outer rings go to you know they go to they do the kind of prosaic religious thing right like you you go to church you go to synagogue you engage in the rituals and it's kind of this cultural communal thing and then they're kind of like the mystics and they're like

just going for like the the truth and you can do that through truth. And you can do that through, I think, science. You can do it through religion itself and spiritual purification. I think you can go for that in many different ways. And I think some of this touches on kind of Gnostic ideas. What do you mean? Well, Gnosticism is a really poor, poorly defined group. There were Gnostics like post jesus or whatever um but really it's like everything outside of like the council of nicaea and like the kind of you know straight up canon and then there's like you know their

specific kind of like esoteric orders that are kind of associated loosely with Gnosticism, but it's like this poor amalgamation of like a bunch of different things. The way I'm using it here is like, I think a lot of Gnostics are sympathetic to the, and there's this author named Hans Jonas who writes some good books in this area, this idea that like man himself is godly. And, you know, it's like namaste or whatever is like, you know, I say hi to the God in you or something. You're getting to what the Templars think, essentially. Do you think the Templars think that? Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of discussion as to them being Gnostic and exactly what you just said, God within you and protecting of traditions but recognizing that

things have been changed and manipulated yeah well the templars you know they were meant to protect christ's bloodline was sort of the you know historical like myth around them and they would also protect prophets and uh you know kind of these weak sickly seers and they were very interesting order you know they had like a you know banking kind of these weak, sickly seers. And they were very interesting order. You know, they had like a, you know, banking system back in the day. And that's actually what got them to trouble. Because Philip IV, Philip the Fair, was indebted to them. And then he got really mad at, you know, Jacques de Molay and Geoffrey du Charnay and all these guys.

And basically, like, you know, said that they were engaging in these blasphemous rituals worked with work with the vatican to off with their head exactly pope pope clement the fifth i believe yeah god he's good not the fourth the fifth the fifth the fifth and i think you know uh jacques de mollet was you know he had he had been in touch with clement v and i think jacques de molle might have had like a very interesting worldview that he was trying to get out um but uh he's the leader of the templars he was the leader of the time yeah i should have the last grandmaster of the templars and i think it was friday the 13th 1307 he was arrested and um yeah i don't know you know it's like it's who knows exactly what they what they believed but they're a very very interesting group and some people think that

you know maybe they went underground uh you know after after he was arrested and maybe they went to the you know if you read the umberto echo you know it's like italian medieval philosopher he thinks that maybe they went to the tunnels of uh of provence and you know in france um you know other people think they went to scotland um it's very interesting i have a hard i i studied the templars a good bit i wouldn't call myself an expert on it but it's a very interesting topic to me yes i have a very hard time believing that their quote-unquote bloodline ended when you know this thing went down this raid basically and then their leadership was executed it they had their hands on too many alleged secrets

and they had too much multi-country organization yeah i mean you point out the banking system and shit like yeah they were so advanced and operating on their own as this weird like warrior monk kind of thing where all the templars then had to put their money into into the templar group like they but they lived well among all the templar but like it had such a a fraternal type feel to it that i i struggled to believe that it just went out like a light like that. I would, I would imagine it was kept alive. If you know, you can start to, to pull it evidence and, and maybe use a lot of circumstantial things at best to try to tie it to like Freemasons or something like that. I don't know the answer to those things, but you know, the, the, the concept

of like protecting the bloodline of Christ or something, I mean, you want to talk about an ontological shock type thing? I mean, holy shit, bro. Yeah, it's fascinating. Well, I think in some ways they were protecting that, you know, at least Rudolf Steiner wrote a book, actually, the guy mentioned the 19th century Austrian philosopher about the Templars. And he says that the holy grail is actually a metaphor for the human heart and that uh kind of the the macro war or whatever the cosmic war actually goes on inside the human bloodstream and that the templars rituals you know they were sort of they were simulating peter's denial and like all sorts of like biblical stories and like these things that they would they would do and um

he would say that it was all about almost self-purification these were like self-purification rituals and that you you might be able to attain sort of a christ-like consciousness or state or something through some through some of this stuff and that the templars were in order to protect i mean even even like exoterically they were there to protect pilgrims you know and you had the hospital years or whatever who were like the medic side of that so that was that was kind of their explicit intent and then yeah who knows you know it's all very interesting a lot of different DaVinci Code yeah I really want to get that author in here. Dan Brown? Yeah. Go to New Hampshire. I've been working on it.

Have you? That would be awesome. He doesn't really do podcasts. Yeah, he's pretty off the beaten path. He's a really cool man. I mean, what a guy. I love actually Angels and Demons. I thought that was fantastic.

Yeah, I've literally read the books. The movies are great, but I've read the books. He's a really good writer, and the stories are wild. like yeah i mean it is a fictionalized story and it draws on you know some imagination but there's also there's a baseline of of intense historical understanding of symbology yeah and culture and religion that exists within those pages that is just wildly fascinating yeah i agree i agree but i got you on this tangent because you were talking about gnosticism yeah yeah yeah off that sorry yeah continue on no i don't know i think i think um well i guess we're going back to the kind of alien thing like are the are aliens like at all

do they have to do with religion i think the easy cynical like way to like write off religion is like oh yeah like they've been like messing with us and like causing like holy wars but like really they just want the bloodshed or whatever they're like mining us for like bad bad vibes in the case of like robert monroe's like had this concept of you know he studied consciousness in virginia or whatever and he had this idea of loosh and like these negative entities mining loosh how would you do that at scale through like manufacturing wars or whatever i think it's easy to like get into that like line of thinking. And then I think there's maybe another interesting line of thinking that's like, you know, religion can be this like really cool kind of initiation path.

And there's actually like a lot of truth in religion. And it's so easy to like dismiss the Bible out of hand. But actually it's like this. And if you read like both the Old Testament and the New Testament, like these are profound texts. Oh, yeah. They're like so fascinating. Yes. And they're texts I think you get something different out of depending on the level of like that you're at.

And so it's important to like I think revisit these things. Yeah, you make a good point. There's definitely a level of truth that exists within there. And look, there's human error. There's passed down stories. There's things that are written hundreds of years later. There's translations that are translated fucking 12 different ways that get confusing. But it's called the greatest book ever written because there's something at the core of humanity that exists in there.

Now, you can separate out all these things. You can separate the history of it versus what might be more fable and fairy tale. You can separate out the religion and maybe the power structures that took advantage of that and continue to take advantage of it for not good things. And you can separate out the piece of religion that brings a lot of people something awesome in their life where, you know, I always say this with these organized religions, most of the people who are part of it, it's used for positive in their life. And it's a great thing. It's a small percentage of people that use it for power or domination over others or no, I say this, so fuck you and whatever you think.

And unfortunately, that's what gets attention. But like you can separate all these ideas and realize it's complicated. It just gets it gets weird when you look at it through the more esoteric sense and you see some of the things within there where, you know, kind of like what Diana Walsh Pasoka looks at where it's like, wait a second. Is there like some some code in here that means some things that we don't that we don't, which, which, or that we don't, we didn't previously understand. Like that, that topic is, is so fascinating to me because you don't like with a book that holy, the people who put it together, it's almost like there's, there's something coming to them. There's these ideas or, or knowledge secrets from the universe that maybe have been passed down enough that there's still that kernel of truth there. But obviously, like you were saying,

you really got into Diana's book. And I think you described her as like a great white buffalo of coming on your show. And just for people out there who aren't familiar with her work, you started to go into it, but what is she really getting at vis-a-vis ufos and and religion yeah well she made this really interesting and so her first book was called heaven can wait i believe it was published in 2014 and it was a history of like i think it was about the catholic concept of purgatory and so she's going through all these like brothers nuns you know uh sisters mothers of the church of the catholic church experiencing like you know what they would call divine interactions or angelic interactions um and in many cases it

was like she was she was basically she knows greek and latin she's a classicist and she was going back to the original translation not just taking kind of prima facie at face value the uh you know kind of modern modernization translations of you know the the way these things have kind of prima facie at face value the uh you know kind of modern modernization translations of you know the the way these things have kind of like it's a game of telephone you know and so like now it's written as like you know angel or demon or god or whatever but she was going back to the original translations and she was seeing orbs and discs and like all sorts of paranormal stuff that really pattern matches to like if you read john max books on abductions or whatever or like any of the modern kind of alien stuff like it it was

like a one-to-one match uh and so i think a light bulb went off in her head or i think she even sent a lot of this stuff to her friend and her friend was like this reads like a steven spielberg script like this is great this is like really paranormal and a light bulb went off in her head where she was like oh my god like maybe this is the same thing that's going on now and uh you know maybe maybe this this is still we're still living in in the reality that the bible is and that's why i think in some ways the whole alien conversation is not subversive in upending of religion it's reinforcing of religion you become this biblical literalist and you actually move from this like garden variety like i'm going to go to church because i you know it's a pascal's

wager and i don't want to go to hell into like i uh actually i'm starting to believe in the metaphysical truth of this and i think our the world we live in is actually expanded maybe there are this is this interstitial thing with angels and demons and i want to be on the right side of history i want to like lead a good life myself and uh you know not end up you know right in the bad side and i think that's like that's like a very powerful profound thing to like think you're like swimming in the soup of good and evil that'll pop anybody out of their nihilism and i think that's good and reinforcing yes religion do you think like in your – whether it's studying Diana or talking to many other people you have where this whole – maybe I'll take it a step farther and say maybe even some of the angel and demon stuff that comes up with it. Do you think it makes you more open to – not necessarily like, oh, this religion is right or something like that.

But like, all right, maybe there's – maybe I should look at some other stuff that I previously wrote off. Yeah, absolutely, man. Yeah. Well, I think, I think you expand your ontological world. It, like the more you are, I think the way, the best way to think, and I was talking about this with, with Danny Sheehan too. And like, you know, maybe i'm like way off on all this stuff so like take this with a grain of salt but like i think the best way to think is like be radically open-minded to everything when you hear something don't dismiss it a priori you catalog it as low probability and then when you you just look for corroboration for it you look for like more and more evidence that it's real and so i think when you do that with like the alien thing

and you look at, you know, the, all the sort of, you know, this body of like religious evidence, and you can dismiss this stuff around religion and say, you know, it's religious in nature. So like, it's not evidence, but it's like, that's what everybody was like for the last few thousand years. It's like the, you know, the idea that like, there are like over 4, few like few thousand years it's like the you know the idea

that like they're like over 4 000 like flood myths or whatever like like there's so many flood and you can like dismiss that out of hand if you're an art you know an archaeologist and say graham hancock's like an idiot or whatever or you can just realize that that was humanity and like those those myths like hold a lot of validity themselves and they're historical artifacts they're not just religious artifacts they're also across like every they're so disparate they're uncorrelated exactly and so i think i think the more your knowledge grows the more the surface area of your knowledge grows and if you think of the surface area as like begetting questions like it's like i think you're uh you're

that your questions grow at an exponent of the knowledge that you know sort of thing and so yeah i think when you when you pull a little jenga blocker you know you find out a thing about you know alternative american history or ufos or whatever it just expands your world to you more and it makes you question sort of you know everything in a really i think healthy way and then you still have to have guard you still have to be like yeah but that's bullshit you know that that involves lazy thinking and it's dumb and um but most people are they're sort of like they don't realize how epistemically like blocks they are yes and i think that yeah it would be i don't know it'd be awesome if we could change that

yeah listen across everything we do all communication it would be amazing people could be more like wow that's an interesting idea why how'd you arrive at that yeah rather than you know just like fuck you or yes yeah but i mean we're talking about the open source stuff right yeah the things we can see reading the, reading ancient texts that's available to the public. Yeah. There is still a power structure that exists across different religions around them. In the case of, say, Christianity and more specifically the Catholic Church, obviously you have the Vatican. And I used it for six months of my life.

I lived like a quarter mile from the Vatican. Oh, wow. And at the time, it was like, oh, wow, that's awesome. Didn't have any appreciation for thinking about like, holy fuck, there's some secrets of the universe potentially in there. Yeah. But like you brought up the Council of Nicaea and everything, which is something that I feel like is very under-discussed in history. But that's where, say, all the source data was amalgamated into what we, the public, will end up being able to have by a very powerful few that has continued that tradition all the way through to now where the Vatican is a country and has everything. And I believe, if I'm remembering this correctly, in Diana's work, like she went to the Vatican archives? She went to the Vatican archives and I believe they make you sign an NDA.

And so I think she can't say that much, but she consistently in public hints that it seems like they understand kind of more about ontological truth and the UFO thing more than meets the eye. And you even had, I mean, she talks about this publicly. She had this NASA mission controller who now I can say his name because he's been doxed by other people, Tim Taylor, go to the Vatican and have this like personal conversion experience. And it was, I think it was a really trippy experience for him where he was like reading through like stuff they had on like copernicus and other and galileo and in some somehow that reinforced his religiosity like he became a hardcore catholic after that and so like i think you have to ask

yourself the question like why does a like kind of nuts and bolts like you know nasa mission controller if he's going in there and like looking into you know um just their like science records why does that turn him into a hardcore catholic and she she talks she documents the actual experience where he has what she would call hierophany like a real an actual conversion experience and he like breaks it down into tears and it could have just been the spontaneous thing but she hints even in her interview with me that like somehow what he was learning scientifically that they had reinforced his religious worldview that was a little more kind of like he was going through the motions before that experience and then it it became alive for him and i think that's actually a common experience for for a lot of people is they have

these sort of like pivotal moments in their life where they just convert and uh you know like we brought up saint thomas aquinas i think he was working on like sumo theologica this like rational discourse on christianity this justification for christianity and in catholic mass i think he had i don't know if it was a ufo experience but some sort of paranormal like felt like he was touched by God and just stopped speaking. And like, he was like, you know, I like know the truth or something. And like, this is all, you know, I can't even evangelize it, but it became this like much deeper sort of like true knowing. That's actually the root of gnosis is the Greek, you know, or Gnostic rather that the Greek Gnosis which is to know but it's to know it's the difference between me saying you you

know the concept of like a Snickers bar versus like you eating a Snickers bar yes and so like knowing God intellectually is very different than you know maybe experiencing God and so I don't know you know I'm I'm probably pre you know having that experience but uh you experience, but I think that seems to happen kind of consistently, and at least Pasolka relates it to the UFO thing. a NASA scientist going and having this conversion to Catholicism based on allegedly what he sees, I guess, in the Vatican archives is that, you know, we've always had this division across human history of science and religion. One can't exist without the other, but they are, they're oil and water. They do not coexist. Like they can't exist without each other, but they do not coexist well on top of each other. When in reality,

the science is the quest to, and I'm really being broad right now, so don't kill me in the comments, but like science is like the quest to figure out what we can about our reality and about the universe and about the things around us. Pretty much anything you point out like, oh, scientifically, why is this table that way? Right religion is the same quest except it more has to do with where we came from and where we go when we're out of these bodies these machines we're in for 90 years if we live a good long life yeah and yet you know you have the famous stories in history where like galileo gets banned by the church and imprisoned in his home because he has the audacity to talk about whatever it was the solar system and things like that and the church and imprisoned in his home because he has the audacity to talk about whatever it was, the solar system and things like that. And the church is like, no, no, no. But does that

come from the fact that the church knows a lot of this stuff and there's just a power structure that wants to stop the masses from knowing it. So they hide behind the, no, this is religion. You have to have faith when in reality they're operating on a level where they're scientifically aware more than anyone else. Right. Right. Or maybe working on behalf of something else i don't know sure but yeah yeah totally i don't know you know it's um the vatican was definitely like uh it's almost like the first intel agency or something i think it's like i think that's very very like you know yeah hardcore uh they just yeah they had all the you know the knowledge the power and uh yeah i mean are you familiar with like giordano bruno like he had this sort of like many worlds theory 16th century yeah no i'm not

just another another example of uh you know, Galileo where he had, he had, it was almost like the multiverse theory or something, but like a proto example of that back then. And, um, I believe was he, he might have been actually like queen Elizabeth. Um, and I think it was, it was a King Frederick,? A Bohemia? I think, I think Giordano Bruno might've interfaced with them. Cause I know like, like, uh, John Dee and Edward Kelly and stuff. Like a lot of these, uh, King Frederick was, seemed to be like kind of a patron of like weird science. And I think Giordano Bruno might've interfaced with them.

And so he had this theory, but anyways, he was burnt at the stake and. Of course he was. Yeah. Yeah. It's just kind of classic, yeah. Just like Jacques de Molay and Galileo and a whole motley crew of people. Yeah, that's the thing. Like the people with new ideas are the ones that get burned at the stake in history.

And you just – that's what just makes me wonder if it's really the opposite of what we think. Yeah, well, it's like Socrates. It's just this consistent sort of trope. It's these scapegoating cycles where you have power structures that if you get out of line, if you break kind of a prohibition or whatever, then you're scapegoated. Sure. Yeah. I mean we joke about like the Vatican being the first intel agency, but like the evidence there is pretty good. Holy shit, bro. Like, just start at the Council of Nicaea and work your way through. There was actually a book written, I think, in 2014 called The Vatican Bankers by Gerald Posner. Interesting. You ever read that?

No. What's the thesis? You know, he does a really nice job just kind of reporting the history, especially over the past, heavily over the past 150 years or so yeah 200 years of like yo you have this religious organization but they're wired into everyone and yes there's a lot of money that floats around that because they're a financial arm too and it's like it's the age-old thing it doesn't matter whether it's religion, science, fucking that white door right there. It's always follow the money, right? And I don't know.

That really made me think more about how naive maybe I was about the fact that – yeah, it's not just like people holding power over people's beliefs or something in the world. Like, oh, do you believe that America is the modicum of democracy? Oh, do you believe that like Jesus Christ was the Savior oh do you believe that like Muhammad was the was was the real was the prophet of God it it does really unfortunately just tie back to some form of business at the end of the day and that's how they even if even if they lead with those ideas there there's there's a flow of cash yeah below it yes it's cynically that's kind of sad but once I read it I was like yeah I should have known this no that's it's clearly like a it's an organization it's a power structure that

like needs to like protect its own interests yeah so yeah I think and so like maybe like the other like cut on what we were just talking about is like circumventing that. Being like, no, I'm not going to like join the church. I'm going to like seek on my own. Yes. Like, you know, that's seen as sort of a threat in some ways. Because like they need to be like a monopoly of. Yes.

They need to have a monopoly on truth. Yeah, I love this whole like they can like excommunicate someone from the church. I'm like. Yeah. So they put like electric fence around your house like what are you really doing like at the end of the day me and whoever's upstairs we're gonna have our tete-a-tete on whether or not i live my life right yeah you know what i mean but it's strange that man is like you are it's like it's like harry potter like copernicus yeah like you're excommunicated very strange it is strange and that that's a

decision that's it's easier said than done to say I'm going to have not a horizontal tether to like mankind who like is honestly like blaming me for a thing or saying that I'm an outcast for like believing a thing. But I'm going to have a vertical tether to God and I'm going to like care more about just like the moral sanctity of like any given decision. That's like an extremely hard position uh you know uh position to stake oh yeah and so you know i think it's much easier said than done and people get naturally when when when you're talking about quite literally the meaning of your life it creates a wall with people where to your point earlier, it's harder to have an open conversation about it because like, this is their core belief. It's their attitude. Like, how do you break that down? The first thing you learn in marketing 101 day one of class is like the easiest thing to form and the hardest thing to break as a human's attitude. Now put that in religion and why

someone thinks they're here and then try to have an educated conversation with them where you're not like attacking it or saying you're wrong or something like that, but just like, oh, have you ever thought about this or thought about that? It's hard to break through on those. Yeah, for sure. Totally, yeah.

But it's interesting that a lot of this ufology that's happened has come back to religion. And I think the thing we get lost in all the time is that obviously since 2017 when chris mellon walked out of the pentagon and put this on the front of the new york times it's suddenly become a big part of the accepted lexicon to where like fucking nbc talks about it yeah yeah like that's strange yeah but like we forget that this is these thoughts have always existed throughout human history They've been something that especially throughout the 20th century were happening and maybe it was just more

Taboo to talk about but you know, you're really good friends with a guy who's like Maybe like the most respected name and in the entire space because he's just like a genius in life and and that's jacques valet yeah like this isn't new to him he's he's been on this shit for fucking five six decades or whatever yeah how did you even meet that guy i met him through uh bringing in people to the like the you know peter's orbit or whatever and then just getting interested in all these like you know subjects kind of at the frontier of epistemology and and so ufos is one of those topics and i met him around the same time i met like how put off and gary nolan and i you know i'd watched close encounters the third kind and had known like he had you know it was the the french eccentric character that like you know francois truffaut was based on and stuff yeah but uh you know i yeah other than that in his like kind of internet history i didn't know much and then i met him and i was like this guy's

really not only like incredibly knowledgeable and like i don't know it's when you speak to some of these people it's almost like you're you're also pinging off their conviction because he's like he's it's so like it's so obvious to him that like because you're when you first meet a guy like that you're like you just want to know if the thing's real and he's gone to like hundreds of crash site there's like no there's no like question to him that like this stuff is real and so i think you know meeting somebody like that who's also rational thoughtful worked on the earliest version of the internet under doug engelbart at you know xerox park and uh was an astronomeromer, has some physics background. He's a true polymath.

Yeah, really smart, venture capitalist. You start to think, okay, and then you read his books and they're incredibly, he can at times be a little long-winded and speak in these sort of overly complex ways, but you read his books and they're incredibly well-researched just really really good um yeah he's he's fascinating he's one of these people where like you spend time with him and there's some like

osmosis like thing that goes on where i think he like you know expands your consciousness just by like being with him i was actually just with him like maybe a month and a half ago in Paris. And he has a spot there. And he was talking about, you know, cathedrals and how they're built. And he was talking about blue stained glass. And he just goes, he's so knowledgeable. And yeah, I mean, I cherish any time I get with that guy. He's amazing. Yeah, he's definitely one of those guys when, not that I've been in a room with him, but like when you listen to him talk. So I guess when he walks in the room with you, you're like, ooh, this is a different level of human.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But like you talk about the whole crash retrieval thing and him going to these scenes. You know, one of the skeptic arguments which i welcome the skeptic arguments and and i try to be a skeptic myself too because i think you really have to balance things out but like you know a guy like michio kaku who i had in episode 145 you know do you believe in god well i believe in the god of einstein he believed in god but not the god of Einstein. He believed in God, but not the God that intervenes in human affairs. It was the God of order, the God of simplicity and elegance. Einstein was asked the question, did the universe have a choice? Is it unique? So universes, you can create universes in an

afternoon, but most of them are unstable. Most of them fall apart. Most of them don't work. Our universe is stable. It works. Everything fits together. And then the question is, what set off the bang? That's what we do for a living. We have the Big Bang Theory up to the point where the universe is going to explode. Why did it explode? We think it was a quantum event. And we are here because we are in the universe which decided to explode. So Einstein said, was it all an accident? And he thought, no, it could not have been an accident. He's become very open to this stuff and looks at the science of it, which is very, very cool.

But he also, when it comes to some of the crashes and things like that, he's like, you know, why doesn't anyone for the sake of God, steal a pen or steal a piece of metal or something like that? My God, you know, there's never been physical evidence of it. So when you- But there are rebuttals to that, right? And what's the rebuttal? Gary Nolan, you know, Stanford PhD, you know, tenured professor of microbiology up for Nobel, you know, Nobel nominee every year, you know, claims to have parts that this is at least like the, you know, sequence of events, right? Like a UFO is seen in like

Ubatuba, Brazil, it like explodes, you know, a piece of it is mailed to Jacques Vallée, Jacques Vallée gives it to Gary Nolan for mass spectrometry. And, you know, you have isotope ratios of heavy elements that do not exist on Earth and are completely anomalous in the context of asteroids from other planets. So I'm not saying that that's a smoking gun. They're small pieces. Have you seen it? I've seen them. You need more testing. But I will say that's like a good argument against the Kaku thing where it's like that is a thing that like you, Michio Kaku, who's a brilliant string theorist, you should go check that out and like false fire corroborate, whatever. Talk to Gary about that.

Why doesn't – but that's the thing. Why doesn't Gary like walk into Joe Rogan's studio and put it on the table? I think he should. I showed the pieces in my Episode with Gary and I was like so fired up That was like one of my first bigger episodes because I was like this is gonna be insane like people are gonna freak out It's like way back. It's like yeah a couple years ago, but um, yeah, he should I think he should go on Rogan Can we pull that up? Can we pull up Jesse's video with Gary Norton?

Do you remember the area where you showed the object? Yeah, it's later in the episode. All right. And I will disclaim they're small. But if you just take what was observed, the fact that they were mailed to Jacques around that. It won't take long to tell you Neutral's ingredients. Vodka. S soda, natural flavors. So, what should we talk about?

No sugar added? Neutral. Refreshingly simple. And then you have mass spec being done, you know, elements with weird isotope ratios. I think that is worthy of further inquiry. Oh, sure. That's a pretty big deal. Now, for people out there who don't speak Japanese, can you explain isotope ratios and why this is important

yeah i guess like uh you have radioactive decay on any given element and so uh you know an element will uh change you know through i think it's through the weak force right uh you have like you know electron changes going on uh for any given element if it's unstable and it changes isotopes. And there are certain isotope ratios that are very common and then you have other isotopes that are very uncommon that you would just not find in nature. I think James, when he was doing Moment of Contact, talked about some of the isotope ratios, I believe I hope I'm remembering this right? I want to say that was like an hour and 10 minutes into episode 139 But he was talking about like some of the isotope ratios that were recovered from the soil

Around there where that crash happened in 96 in Virginia So it was a UFO crash site alleged UFO crash or a landing alleged UFO crash material. Or a landing site where they had been. A crash. It was a crash. Yeah, it was like an explosion and crash, yeah. Okay, and so they were testing something with the isotopes and the whatever the fuck. Yeah, Gary Dolan. What did they find in there

without, you know, going, like, too complicated? Like, what did they find to be able to say, like, ooh, this is not a part of our element table, our table of elements? Something to do with magnesium isotopes that were a certain ratio that was not found on earth if you if you could create it it would be in the billions of dollars and it was 1957 so and it's a you know this is a common occurrence that points to not of this earth now if you pulled back in like perhaps the wavelength of like diana walsh pasoka yeah you know there there's an argument there that if it's

like aliens and demons or angels and demons or whatever it doesn't leave behind like a metallic physical thing it's more at least behind a physical mark yeah so if we're talking about having actual pieces yeah of something like i'll just call it metal for the sake of calling metal but it's not necessarily metal yeah like that to me maybe i'm thinking about this way too naively that points more towards okay this is another entity an alien a future human something like that it's not this is not necessarily something that is biblical in the sense that it's an angel or it's a demon. Yeah. Yeah.

I don't know. I guess we got the pieces up here. Oh, we do. All right. Let's take a look at this. So this is magnesium bismuth, by the way. Okay. You can point that mic right at it and turn that speaker up, James.

Thank you, brother. We got James filling in today. Thank you, James. Last minute. So shout out to you. I appreciate you doing that, brother. to you i appreciate you all right let's hit play there's all of the anomalies about the pieces of magnesium coming from ubatuba but what about the other sample on the table those are pieces of bismuth nolan actually couldn't recall

how it was procured so we had to call how put off to get the full scoop. Hal. Hi, Hal. Val Puthoff has one of the most interesting stories of all time. He was first a laser physicist, and then out of Stanford Research Institute, he started the government's psychic spy program. Since then, he's been doing frontier tech research and has briefed multiple presidents on UFOs. So do you know the original story

of how it was kind of procured initially? The story was that it was sent anonymously by someone claiming to be an army officer. Long story short, this army officer was going through his grandfather's archives when he found this rare sample. And then written in the diary was that it was a piece from Roswell. True or not, these thin layers of bismuth magnesium are very hard to reproduce. Howe claims that they even have the properties to micro-size wave guides for terahertz frequencies.

It turns out that it reduces the size of the required microwave guide for terahertz frequencies down to about 1 30th of the wave length which is which is amazing so it means you can basically put 30 wave guides in the volume of a single wave guide at terahertz frequencies got it thanks a lot i really appreciate it what can you do with terahertz that we can't with all right yeah let's let's go it's just more that's nuts yeah so you have little pieces i mean obviously they're when visually anticlimactic but if you look at the fact pattern you know that's worthy of investigation you have a guy of you know

nolan's caliber looking into it now why doesn't nolan let more of a skeptical guy just about that you know maybe ufos have been seen crash like brian keating come in there and test it because like i think he should if i wanted to be a cynic i could be like he's sitting there with you know some piece of metal going man bear pig sure sure sure right sure i don't sounds like you've seen it and that's not what it is but like i mean i haven't personally done mass spec so i am going on his word there and I have to, you know, full disclosure. Like I don't know for sure that the isotope – I can't see the thing and be like the isotope ratios are, you know, strontium, whatever, you know. So, yeah, I think he should.

I think he should. I think we should just like investigate. We should fund it. We should investigate more of this and, you know know it should flip either way it should be you know this is you know definitely not ours or uh you know this is uh this is this crazy mind-blowing thing that changes everything why do you think guys like who maybe have handled this like you said like valet jacques valet and and gary nolan haven't necessarily done that yet meaning let in outside scientists to come take a look at Gary uh I don't want to say too much but I know that Gary is actively like trying to

get more of a smoking gun that it's alien and I he has some really interesting ideas around that so uh yeah he he is doing it okay yeah yeah he did a lot of work with like the basal ganglia stuff right uh-huh yeah back to me what was that again the this little with like the basal ganglia stuff right uh-huh coming back to me what was that again the this little part of the basal ganglia and the dorsal striatum um called the caudate nucleus and the potamen which he claims is like the almost like psychic center uh where the neuronal density in that area almost allows somebody to see more ufos like the more neuronal density you have in that area the more more you can somehow see UFOs. And also, they hooked up an fMRI to people playing Go.

And the more that area of the brain lights up, like, the person, when a person makes a brilliant move in Go, which is a counterintuitive move, it's a move that doesn't make any sense, actually, as an incremental go-forward move against the player, given where where the pieces are it only makes sense in the context of the end point of the game so it's almost like a psychic knowledge of the future that's like causing you to like make this very counterintuitive move that part of the brain lights up in an fmri fmri tracks blood flow and so uh i think it's like this really interesting part of the brain

that also we have to go like way deeper on my one like weird theoretical model that i would you know kind of apply to it possibly is you know there's this idea that like the brain could be like a quantum a room temperature quantum system so you have like roger penrose wrote like the emperor's new mind and you know i guess that was his follow-up with stewart hammeroff this anesthesiologist and it was this idea that like the microtubules like you know are like really important for the collapse of the wave function and because it is this important question like why do we see like macroscopic discrete reality versus kind of the sub subatomic probabilistic reality like why do we jesse english so so so that's sitting here nodding my head like i

understand absolutely not so so so so gary uh so it's been shown that there is hypothesized to be temporal non-locality in quantum systems so like you can run like a double slit slit experiment in the future and you're running it with an entangled photon from the past, and it feels like the future measurement is actually affecting the past. And that's an interpretation. That's not for sure true. who hypothesized that a working quantum computer, which we don't have because the bottleneck is keeping the chips coherent, can send information back in time as long as the quantum computer is on. And so if the brain is a quantum computer or a part of it, maybe it's a classical quantum hybrid, whatever, then maybe there is a part of the brain that actually glitches into the future and sends shards or traces of information

back in time explaining these sort of counterintuitive moves explaining the greater preponderance of ufo sightings if ufos actually have more to do with time than space which is my belief can you expand upon that yeah i think it's this well first of all i think it's a false dichotomy right like you can't get to like proximxima Centauri B or whatever, you know, with nuclear thermal propulsion, with chemical combustion, it takes you 80,000 years, multiple lifetimes. So that doesn't work for like biological mass as we know it. And we're seeing things that seemed to look kind of like us. And then you speed that up with nuclear thermal propulsion by maybe 2x.

So that's 40,000 years, still totally unworkable. So you kind of need some version of space-time metric engineering, which is time travel. That is time travel to get real space travel that's interstellar. Yes. And so I think it's this false dichotomy. But then you look at the actual observables of the alien thing, and they're these little gray men. And you look at any ufo database or like close

encounters of the third kind database like the edgar mitchell foundation has you know this this database i think it's only five six thousand cases which is a problem we need bigger databases but you look at any of these databases around or over 50 percent of the cases involve literally like hominid creatures so the likelihood that you're seeing a thing from a random foreign planet that's evolutionary converged to like be this hominid sentient advanced technological thing that like looks like us makes no sense and then you layer on top of that the fact that like gray aliens look like what any evolutionary biologist would probably predict we are going to evolve into you know their ears and noses because we're not hunter-gathering like what any evolutionary biologist would probably predict we are going to evolve into.

Their ears and noses, because we're not hunter gathering anymore, they've become vestigial for us. And so they're being selected against. Our eyes are being selected for more screen time. They have slit like eyes. Our brains are being selected for decision-making is becoming far more important.

Our bodies and strength are becoming less important. They're kind of sinewy you know like weeks whatever the idea that like these things would look like what we're moving towards and be from a totally random planet makes no sense and then you can get into like you know weird physics models that are like honestly a little above my pay grade but like this you know idea of like tippler disks and like it you know blur disks yeah so you had like goodell had this like you know um you know kurt goodell had this idea of like time travel you know uh uh in the early 20th century and then you had this guy frank tipler who was like later in the 20th century and he goodell's

whole thing was like you could time travel but like you'd have to like basically like travel like an extremely long distance and like it's it's like in effect like works but like it doesn't really like like it's it's totally theoretical it's like impossible and then tipler had and again this is a little above my pay grade but tipler had this idea of like shrinking that down to literally a disc which is hilarious because like that's what we describe ufos as and so i think the real guy you should speak to about this this guy named mike masters who um wait that sounds very familiar he's awesome man he wrote a book called uh identified flying objects and another one called extra tempestrials and it's these two books that they're the best theory ufo books since jacques valet and in some ways they're like even better than some of the jock the jock stuff's

amazing and set the foundation but masters really has it an actual theory which is these are humans from the future and does he think does he have any explanation of how far maybe he doesn't but he goes to like the actual accounts he goes through like a bunch of accounts and i'm telling you man for every single one let's say they're from zeta reticuli proxima centauri or like random other you know solar systems uh or you know galaxies whatever uh uh they also say like we're from the future and and that is that is a consistent trope like a jim penniston the uh rendlesham forest case 1980s like he was like you know the 8 000 years in the future like that's what the you know aliens said that they were they were from in many cases people have to do chemical rinses they don't infect the future with a foreign pathogen there's some weird non-interference principle where there's

lost time maybe that's because you have these weird butterfly effects where like you know there has to be lost time or something and so i don't know if it's from the where i might disagree with masters is like i don't know if it's from the... Where I might disagree with Masters is like, I don't know if it's from the future, it could be some like, extra-temporal layer on top of reality. Like, whoever these entities are might have actually figured out some sort of time editing or time travel, and they might be living like,

outside of our time-bound kind of, you know, 3D world, that where like, you have Zeno's arrow of time you know where like it's you're like moving in this river that's like endlessly moving forward yeah now you're on it yeah so i and i i don't know but like that would be i would speculate that is if you're just using scientific inductive thinking and principles that is the occam's razor explanation for this it's not you you're just making up like extraterrestrial stuff. I mean, you're not making it up there. Like Betty and Barney Hill, they said they're from Zeta Reticula.

You have like cases where they say they're from other planets. You have plenty of those. But for every one of those, you have, again, one that says, you know, we're time travelers. And then you look at the actual observables and God, it looks a lot more like time travelers to me than space travelers. Yeah. And God, it looks a lot more like time travelers to me than space travelers. Yeah, I tend to – I don't know if it's because it's the most interesting one to me and it biases me, but that's where my mind ends up always going. We get to the future humans argument. in my very humble opinion, a great theoretical argument about time travel, where he talks about the tributaries of time. And effectively, this is like an infinitesimal or infinite, I guess, like multi-dimensional theory where you talk about the butterfly effect,

where a butterfly literally flaps its wings and that can change an entire trajectory. You have that happening at every single level of every single thing that ever happens including what happens in this room right now so at a high level example for a minute he always points to say april 14 1865 at the ford theater when abraham lincoln gets killed if you as a human right now for some reason had time travel and could go back and you went there and you fucking oozeyed john john wilkes booth in the head before he can do it what he explains and this makes sense to me is that that does not change the reality of the time you're in it changes another version of that reality that now exists in its own dimension like the transistor radio is turned on another part

it forks right and so you change that so when we get to the argument, I guess maybe what Masters was saying, I'm not sure if it was what he was saying or what other people were based on what you were going through there because there was a lot. But like when we get to that argument of like, okay, the future humans are coming here to then work with us in some ways and not – I forget what term you used use but not do certain things so they fuck up their future well i'm not so sure that would be possible to fuck up their future it's more like they're experimenting for another version of their future yeah or maybe their future is fucked and they have to come back and like try to reset the thing or like yeah move there another dimension for another yeah sure okay yeah yeah i i don't you't – this all is like really speculative, kind of not even wrong, unfalsifiable stuff. But yeah, maybe it's some sort of multiverse branching or forking thing where like you can go back to a pivotal moment and then fork things in another direction. And I don't know.

But I mean the nuclear connection would also point to that by the way. You took the words – you and I are on the same wavelength. There's something going on here today. Something going on. The basal ganglias are acting up. You took the words out of my mouth because there's two patterns here that we're not talking about. One of them you just brought up. Yeah.

Specifically in the 20th century since World War II. On the one hand, exactly what you just said, we have a strange connection since the Manhattan Project of UFOs being spotted around nuclear sites where it's like that old Bob Salas line. It's like they're taking matches out of the hand of a baby and saying, no, no, no, don't do that. Yeah. Right? think i've heard you say this before but it's also fascinating that so many of these things are happening where it's the highest level military people who are citing it who quite literally are so tested that if they take ibuprofen yeah they got to report that so when you talk about sober people seeing this shit yeah like you're not getting more sober than the dudes on these bases yeah and yet they report a lot of the same things the the alleged ufos start

fucking with the nuclear codes and shit like that and in the middle of all this since World War II when James Fox went on Joe Rogan in April 2023 he did this unbelievable like 25 minute just riff of all the history of UFOs

since World War II that was just like holy shit he's so into it and understands it so many of these sightings you kind of pointed this out a few minutes ago UFOs since World War II that was just like, holy shit. He's so into it and understands it. So many of these sightings, you kind of pointed this out a few minutes ago, they're in all different parts of the world. We're talking pre-internet before people could get in chat rooms and plan out hoaxes together and shit. And different countries, kids, adults, everything in between. And it's not all the same, but there are a lot of the same themes. You know, the telepathy, you described how these little gray men look and evolutionary, what that could be.

And when I put into account, say, with one example, the Zimbabwe case where allegedly telepathically the aliens said to the kids, I forget what exactly it was, but it was like, be careful, technology could lead you down the wrong path. You could destroy yourselves and you're destroying the environment it was very environmentalist yeah yeah they're telling and and somewhere at home the conspiracy theories are being like goddamn al gore planting that one yeah hey guys if you have a second please be sure to share this episode around on social media and with your friends whether it's reddit instagram facebook twitter doesn't. It's all a huge help. It gets new eyeballs on the show and it allows us to grow and survive. So thank you to all of you who have already been doing that. And thank you to all of you who are going to do so

now. But like, you see the point there, they're like concerned and they're concerned at the same time where we have the power of the nuke and the atom bomb in our hands. And it's not like, obviously we've been talking about history today. This stuff atom bomb in our hands and it's not like obviously we've been talking about history today this stuff goes all the way back it's not like it started at world war ii but it very clearly got some themes both in civilians who witnessed things that had a similarity that could point to future humans and to i don't know potentially future humans being here to say no no no don't do that you're gonna fuck up all these other dimensions if you do that like do you think that that part of it say the nuclear part and the sightings since world war ii are more of an argument towards the future human side of it

i do yeah because like jalen hynek who's an astronomer who ran the like air force's front facing program called blue book yeah which was like meant to explain away all the, you know, the UFO stuff, kind of rationalize, dismiss all this stuff out of hand. And then he kind of became reformed afterwards and was like, actually, you know, I played a big part in the cover up and my orders were to kind of diminish this. His son, Paul Hynek, actually had this like very interesting line, which is like, why would they care? And I think in some ways they'd care. You have the Rogan always says, we're like chimps with nukes. And so it's saying that's definitely what's happening, but if you were to do that, you would definitely really, you would really care about our nuclear assets. Like that would be the thing, that would be the Archimedes lever, the point of most leverage, if you will, where you can, you can affect that, you kind of affect everything. You know, if you could stop the, you know, the Cuban missile crisis, if there's some alternative timeline where like that happens, you know, that's where you would like jump in yes and so this stuff does just consistently

show up around around uh nuclear so yeah i think that's like a good one really good explanation for it but also if like i don't know the world is like a gas station for like factions of aliens and like they're mining us for resources like that's another possible you know explanation for where they just don't want us to blow ourselves up because you know again they're mining us for resources like that's another possible you know explanation for where they just don't want us to blow ourselves up because you know again they're like extracting us for like other stuff it's it's hard to say i i don't know but um i do think the uh time travel hypothesis doesn't get as much air time as it deserves like the extraterrestrial thing just seems like it was kind of foisted on us at some point.

And yeah, I'm not at all sure. I think you have to kind of question all your assumptions when it comes to this stuff. You can't take anything kind of at face value. And the E.T. thing was really kind of like H.G. Wells' War of the Worlds into like 50s movies like Invasion of the Body Snatchers and that sort of thing. Up until, you know, Alien vs and like today and independence day and stuff but like yeah that's kind of like the meme sphere we've been given but if you like actually look at it scientifically and just use first principles logic i think the time travel thing is like you know this incredibly important component of this and then there's like the idea that you know gravity and time are super related you know in general relativity as

well and so like maybe maybe you know gravity itself is sort of very anomalous like i'd say like gravity and time are like i'm not you know again at all a physics you know i'm not sure i should have talked like one well i'm definitely not but i just think like like if you just like zoom out and like i do think in some ways experts can like not see the forest for the trees sometimes and so like that's where i maybe can play a small role where it's like with you know gravity and time like gravity take gravity for example like you can't reconcile it with the other you know forces like gravity breaks down at subatomic levels right like it's like why don't like electrons exhibit gravity it doesn't doesn't make sense and so like you know in in in the quantum world like gravity does not

make sense and then you could say like in gr you know in general relativity like gravity makes sense but even like macroscopically like like or cosmologically rather like you need dark matter to like justify gravity's weakness and like dark matter is like maybe indirectly and detectable at best but like not really detectable like it's kind of seems like this like mathematical placeholder and then gravity is like orders of magnitude weaker than the other three forces so like i think it's a mathematical it's like curve fitting math to like make everything work it's like to explain like planetary orbits like it's like that you have gravity and then like it doesn't make sense on a subatomic level actually the quantum stuff is like way more useful

than like gr when it comes to like building actual tech so maybe there's something more ontologically true actually about the quantum stuff and gravity doesn't really make sense in either context in some ways and then i would say like time is also weird like you have time dilation and relativity you know um can you explain time dilation to people who don't understand sure time um you know is dependent on the observer so if you're moving like way faster if you're moving you know faster uh uh as close as you can to the speed of light or whatever you're actually like aging slower so this is like the twin paradox yes which is you know that's that's kind of weird right and then like i'm pretty sure like in quantum stuff time is mostly taken for granted or like at best it's like you can measure it in terms of like oscillations of like an

electromagnetic wave but like you look at like schrodinger's equation it's just like over time the potential energy plus the kinetic energy equals the total energy of a system or whatever. But it's time is this weird thing. And like, I think Wheeler and DeWitt in the early 50s came up with this idea that maybe time is actually emergent, and it's not fundamental. Which means? It's not this like, it's not this fundamentally,'s it's uh based on measurement uh you know from the observer it's not it's not this fundamentally moving thing that's like outside of you know the the observer's uh measurement and so i i think and the math by the way is going to be totally above my but like i think we we take time for. Like time is the most used noun in the English language.

And if you were to try to define it without respect to like the movement of bodies or whatever, like the movement of macroscopic objects, or without using the word time, you'd have a really hard time, no pun intended. It would be really hard for you to do and so and it actually pre like mechanical clocks like in like medieval periods and prior it was like this very embodied thing and so like i actually think epistemologically like we say it like time flies when you're having fun or like it slows like also probably when you're having like a great time like it feels like you're in this like time vortex right and so i think time is just this very, very weird thing that we don't understand. And just like you have Newton's theory that was kind of couched within Einstein's theory, which came later, you can place Newton inside of Einstein. Who's to say that Schrodinger's

equation isn't an effective equation that's placed inside of some larger equation in which time is you know the archimedes lever that that causes super positionality and position and momentum if that makes sense so like so like uh jane was looking at me like you out too i mean it's it's it's it all sounds like kind of crazy but it's like like you have this you know this wave equation you have like coordinates of like position and momentum like why why wouldn't you maybe maybe you could have coordinates of actual time and time is like does it make sense that position that like an electron would be like super positional as far as like its position and momentum doesn't make sense it doesn't make any sense like in terms of like the ontological truth and that's why you had all these debates between the copenhagen school

and einstein you know around like does this matter for ontological truth or what you know how do you interpret the quantum stuff like this you know einstein's like this can't be like we need an explanation for this um and so i all i'm saying is like i think time could be this really interesting place to look gravity could be this really interesting place to look as far as like where we're off. And it's why, you know, like you have Eric Weinstein like criticizing like string theory to no end. Yeah. And it's because of this like study of quantum gravity, this trying to like locate gravity in the quantum and getting lost in this like crazy abstract math in the form of string theory and so yeah I think I think if you were if you were trying to make like actual inroads in physics

you'd look at those two things you look at time and look at gravity I think it's amazing explanation I understood about half of it but I think the guy understood understood about half of it too you're like look you're like will farrell in old school like i don't know what happened up there i blacked out literally yeah but i when when you when you hear how string theory theoretically is explained it makes a ton of sense obviously the criticism is that it hasn't shipped a product yet and it's been around for 50 odd years or so and i think eric is perhaps raising an important question just for like science as a community of like hey why is there a little bit of a of a of a moat around the around the castle here where we can't talk about whether or not there's actually something

really below string theory that explains it more or the idea could be wrong, right? String theory makes no sense to me. Why does it not make sense to you? As an approach, philosophically. It's like, you know, when people are like, you know, COVID didn't come from a lab or whatever. And I'm like, well, what do you mean? And they're like, or if they say like, you know, gain of function research is like super super valuable like we needed to do it or something and then you're like when has there ever been a case where you've engaged where you know the world is engaged in gain of function research where they've come up with a cure because you figured out some pathogen

in a lab setting like we're motivated by like millions of people dying now and, you know, COVID's out and we can't come up with a cure now. And so I think the way I would analogize that, like, I think that's just like, it's just like bad thinking. I think this is bad thinking because it's like you have two things. You have quantum field theory and you have general relativity. And like when have we ever had two theories in the past where like they involve a lot of like abstract math and like equations and we try to like mash together. Like we try to like, I think like science is only, it's not, it's the map. It's not the territory, right?

Science is useful in that you can create technology out of it and you can predict things from it. And I don't know, like you can't really come of it and you can predict things from it and i i don't know like you can't really come up with a third thing maybe you can come with a third thing but that's my that's my heuristic for like good science it does not it does not reflect ontological truth it's it's really i think it's true insofar as it is useful so i'd say like the quantum stuff feels more true and then the you know cause cosmology stuff because that just feels like all this patchwork we've built up. Again, it's like very human kind of

curve-fitted math or whatever. And so you have two maps, right? String theory is like jamming the maps together. The maps themselves are not, again, it's not the territory. You could like, if you somehow had like, were able to trace the territory, you could create this perfect map, but you you don't you have these two really bad maps or not really bad

but like imperfect like human-based you know maps and you're just jamming them together and that does not make sense philosophically to me if that makes sense like i think you have to like go down the tree trunk and like find another brand like look for like other like off ramps. And like, I think there's something around, I don't know, the territory you often get into with the UFO thing is like electromagnetism being somehow like really, really fundamental and really important. Like we have four forces in physics

and the only one you can manipulate in the lab is electromagnetism. And then you have the strong force, the weak force and gravity. Gravity again, we already strong force, the weak force, and gravity. Gravity, again, we already talked about how it's kind of anomalous. The weak force and strong force, like these things are above my sort of pay grade.

But like, I don't know, like maybe you could figure out some way to like derive them from like electromagnetism or something. Like electromagnetism just feels like the most useful for sure. You can do a lot with Maxwell's equations. Do you ever wonder if like some of this, like I'm not even saying just string theory, just feels like the most useful for sure. You can do a lot with Maxwell's equations. Do you ever wonder if like some of this, like, I'm not even saying just string theory, but just on a general level of some of these things that maybe haven't been proven, but are so believed

in by very smart people in many cases, do you ever wonder if that is also like some of these guys maybe have been read in, so to speak, and there are things that are beyond our comprehension of what we understand right now that behind the scenes they have that perhaps would explain something like this. And this is like kind of the dangle little cat's ball to play with. Like the UFO thing is like a dangle? Sure. Sure. But – well, actually, no. What I'm more – let's actually pull string theory into it, right? Perhaps behind the scenes, and it could involve UFOs and other things, something like that

has been proven or disproven. Doesn't even matter what it is. But that's like kind of a distraction for everyone to fight about publicly because they don't want people to know what they got going on over here in DARPA. Maybe, yeah. So it's sort of like this red herring distraction against like real tech, like, or like weapons testing or something. Sure.

Possibly. Yeah. I mean, another way to put it is like, if we have like a Manhattan Project 2.0, so it's like the first Manhattan Project is like payload potency, right? So it's like the atom bomb up until like thermonuclear like you know hydrogen czar bomb type stuff or whatever and you get you're getting like greater and greater and greater magnitude up until like the point where like this stuff is actually like you had even like oppenheimer debating teller being like you know this is too big for any target or whatever

if you think about like the manhattan project 2.0 it's the world of like stealth and on so it's like payload delivery it's not about payload potency and so you have like you know the f-117 you have the b2 stealth bomber you have you know all all of these you know things that like the the goal is for them to like be like you know be not detectable by radar and adversary detection methods and deliver the payload. And so I do think in some ways, if you take Carl Nell at face value, he set up Army Futures Command and he was on the uap task force with david grush if you take him at face value then he's saying we're in an arms race to reverse engineer craft that has been retrieved uh with russia and china like they have similar programs and so if you're trying to reverse engineer like hyper light drive like faster than light crap or craft that like breaks conservation momentum and like you know goes at speeds that like you know we could we could never hope for with chemical

combustion um then in some sense you could call that like the manhattan project 2.0 and that because again that's like the more important vector along which you're making progress vis-a-vis your adversaries and so i don't know. Is that just like the UFO thing? Or do we have other craft that we're working on, you know, that, you know, is purely like man-made or terrestrial? I'm not sure. But I think you have to be like thinking about all this stuff. Uh, for sure.

And because that would be the vector along which the US needs to make progress. And you might need to increase the surface area of knowledge around that thing without maybe spilling the beans on it or like sort of like you want like the right talent, like the right STEM student in the U.S. knowing about it. Yes. But you don't want, you know, adversaries knowing anything about it. And so like maybe a good world in that worldview or whatever is one in which like random phenom electrical engineer in Kentucky grows up on the internet. He's aware of this stuff and like wants to like get involved or whatever.

But like China and Russia still like have no idea how it works because it's all alien or whatever yeah um but then it's just messy man like you know you can get cynical and like you know have that be your worldview where it's like all some like limited hangout tech protection thing and like it's just not like that like like you look at the ufos and nukes thing it's like you have like 170 credible witnesses since like the 50s and 60s you know you mentioned bob salas i was 67 you think we had like stuff that was like you know hyper light drive craft then like no he definitely didn't unless like i'm like way off on my

understanding of like the nazis unless the nazis from paperclip were up to some shit yeah they might have figured a thing or two out for sure but like a thing that could like fully disarm like the most encrypted like nsa you know like our like crown jewel assets like i just don't know and like roswell like 47 like did like the i mean that's just it just feels a little crazy um and then and then if you believe the you know the grush stuff which i, like you have Magenta in like 33. You have stuff going back like a while. And so I just think it's this like extremely complicated, you know, it's extremely complicated territory to traverse, terrain. And by the way, that's positive sum for there being psyops.

Because a lot of people think that psyop, you know, the idea that there's a psyop and there's something real, that's positive sum for there being psyops because a lot of people think that psyop you know the idea that there's a psyop and there's something real that's zero sum and so if the thing is not real there's more likely to be you know a a psyop or if there's no psyop the thing is you know um less likely to be real or whatever what's up is down what's down is that they're positive some if if there is a psyop around a thing it's probably because the thing is real and maybe it's co-optable and ephemeral but it's it's real and so uh you know the idea that there's a psyop around the thing means that there is probably an underlying reality under it too even if it's not the reality you think it might be sure

the tip of the iceberg might not look like the rest of the ice i'm completely with you on that yeah i feel like we have these religious beliefs that either are like no there's no psyop because they're just trying to help you know when you talk about like people from the military or intelligence coming out and talking about this stuff and then on the other side like no it's complete psyop it's all bullshit there's nothing there yeah i i don't believe either i i think it's a mix, like you say. And I want to get to Grush and Elizondo and stuff. Obviously, you have a long-term relationship you've had with David Grush. I think you were like one of the first guys to know him.

But as far as when he was doing this stuff and revealing some info. But to go back to the earliest part of history because I know you know a lot about this stuff and it's so fascinating to me. There's two things that happened in the 1940s that really just like set the bar for this space. The first thing is the aforementioned Manhattan Project that you brought up where we build the nuke or whatever. Yeah. The second thing, which is supposedly separate but then ends up kind of being related, is Roswell, which happens out west as well. Allegedly these aliens landed there, whatever, and then there was this cover-up. What was the depth of the discussion that Oppenheimer had around UFOs while he was out there working on this project? And were there things that were potentially seen or what was going on there?

We don't know. But there's a book called UFO Secrecy and the Fall of Robertbert j oppenheimer by a guy named donald burleson he's an air force guy and there are some weird things around that kangaroo court that was held where he lost his q q clearance where like the premise of the book is that it wasn't around him socializing with you know possible communist spies or whatever in the 30s and that actually it could have been around some of this ufo stuff and a lot of the quotes like from the kangaroo court is he's he's saying between 45 and 49 a lot happened and he keeps saying that it's like this recurring thing and if you actually

think about like the bomb itself it was 41 through 45 and all the crash all the the lore around ufo crash is 45 through 49 yes so maybe there's you know something interesting there john von neumann who's defending him uh in one of these kangaroo courts is saying uh you know it took him a while to get adjusted to the buck rogers universe that we're living in he might have been referring to just nuclear weapons i mean that's like a weird weird universe but buck rogers is comic strip at the time and it's all about like space travel and time travel and so and then um the uh uh gordon gray is this north carolina lawyer who was rumored to be on the majestic 12 who you know truman and eisenhower's sort of council around ufos and he was overseeing he was an actual guy he was overseeing uh he was an actual guy. He was overseeing this kangaroo court with Oppenheimer.

And so there's some interesting possible data points there. And then I'm trying to think of other like Condon who's the guy who writes the protocols for atomic secrecy, which gets overlaid onto UFO secrecy. He writes the McMahon Act around atomic secrecy, which is 1946. A lot of that language gets used in the atomic uh energy act of 1954 which creates the atomic energy commission and the doe and so you have this guy who's he's a close confidant of oppenheimer this guy you know edward condon he wrote the first english language text textbook on quantum mechanics he studied with oppenheimer at gottengan in german in germany in the 30s he grew up uh in alamogordo right next to los alamos and helps pick los alamos as a spot for the manhattan project he wrote the los alamos primer which every single employee had

to read upon uh joining uh uh los alamos and and then six weeks into the manhattan project he clashes with general leslie groves you know matt damon's character in oppenheimer uh around ufo secrecy and then he goes on to write the ufo secrecy protocols and then his q clearance is also stripped around 5354 so it's this weird that's this weird connection and then 66 he forms the condon commission he's given his clearance back in this really dubious, weird way. We can get into the details around that. Yeah, please. And then, well, okay. So he's given his Q clearance back by a guy named Lou Branscombe,

who's on the Jason Advisory Committee. You know, Jasons are like this very hardcore group when it comes to, you know, overall, like very high level, you know, US defense strategy. And Lou Branscombe is this understudy uh from his harvard days uh from don menzel and um don menzel is also rumored to be on the majestic 12 again i don't know if he was but he's this top astronomer who is this professional ufo debunker for some reason it like feels like it's this guy's job to be like an you know a ufo debunker so you have his like direct understudy like giving condon his his uh clearance back and then i think that was like used as like bait to like get condon basically to like do their bidding and basically say like you have to like squash this subject and the reason i think that is because in the background, there's this Washington FBI field agent named Guy Hoddle who's basically building a ton of compromise on Condon himself. And if you actually look at the Hoddle memo on the FBI website, it's the number one document on the FBI website.

It's literally the most read document on the FBI website. it's a memo that is written to hodl by you know an air force guy saying that you know he's found a ufo that's crashed with you know its whole crew intact or whatever so we know that hodl was at least knowledgeable of the ufo phenomena at the very least like at a high level and he's building this kind of dossier on condon and then Condon gets his clearance back under very mysterious circumstances. And even in an American Institute of Physics interview that he gives Condon, the interviewer is like, were you given your clearance back because of specific UFO cases that you had to review as part of the Condon commission? And he gets all weird about it. And like, he's like, repeats himself like a million times times. Like maybe I saw like a movie or two or something,

but like, no, I didn't need my, I didn't need my clearance back. And like, I, you know, it sounds like he's kind of covering for something.

And so you have this weird connection between him and Oppenheimer. And then the final thing I'll say, and I don't know, you know, I don't know what this means, but it's like, I think sometimes if you're, if you're, if you're like creating this

big atomic blast i think in some ways like like uh you're creating like a big force you're getting closer and closer to like like levels of ontological truth like my guess would be like the manhattan project maybe you figure something out and then like cern like maybe you figure something like like maybe it's more than like the higgs field or something that you figure out with the Large Hadron Collider. And so maybe you get deeper into ontological truth. In this case, in CERN's case, it's electric plasma thrusters. And in the Manhattan Project's case, it's an uncontrolled nuclear fusion or whatever. And so, yeah, I i mean i don't know but um

what was the name of that book again about about it's called you uh uh uh ufo secrecy that's uh ufo secrecy in the fall of robert j oppenheimer so he's putting together through a lot of secondary sources meaning like not oppenheimer himself but other people around the situation and evidence we can collect to circumstantially say if this then that if this then that if this then that then that then that then that because there's a there why are all these different people in the orbit acting in this way to get rid of this guy in particularly who may know this thing about UFOs? So it's circumstantial, but he builds up like a lot of bricks in the house, so to speak. Yeah, yeah.

It's completely circumstantial. There's no smoking gun, but he builds up a lot. By the way, I said I think fusion. I meant fission. You're forgiven. Thank you. Thank you. You know, I got to get it right. I know, I know your audience, Julian, they keep me accountable, but yeah, it's not, there's no smoking gun. It's you know, a lot of circumstantial evidence, but it's interesting. I think it's worthy of follow-up and further investigation. There's also a 1971 Australian document written by their joint intelligence organization, the head of their nuclear division, a guy named Harry Turner. And it's really interesting. There are a lot of these UFO detonation experiments being done actually in Australia and Harry Turner is overseeing this presumably UFO detonation sorry UFO atomic detonation experiment there

they're there they're bought UFO detonation experiments yeah you know you're not familiar with that get on it Julie let's get a video yeah yeah let's do a like Sora or something no they're blowing up bombs there. And you think about Australia, and it's, you know, good. There's a lot of desert. Yeah, exactly. And so he starts to think, you know, maybe there's more to this UFO story that, you know, I think they had had some UFO sightings around their nuclear stuff. And by the way, the other thing that makes sense about Oppenheimer being read in is UFOs are crashing and showing up around, at least we know they're showing up

because of UFOs and nukes, but maybe crashing around these sites. And so it would make sense that somebody like an Oppenheimer would be read in. And so Harry Turner's, Australian Oppenheimer or whatever, he starts to get interested in this and he starts to think that maybe the u.s and their inquiries into ufos and anti-gravity are way more than meets the eye this blue book this whole blue

book thing is like you know he's like maybe this is just an op and because you know blue book is like the front-facing program that the air force has to again explain away everything downplay everything and we know this because of you know hp robertson this caltech physicist writes this memo in 1952 which was supposed to be know, it's been declassified since, but it was supposed to be classified at the time. And it was basically saying like Blue Book, your mandate is to minimize this stuff, explain it away. It's swamp gas. It's, you know, weird lights, whatever. Balloons. Balloons, weather balloons, you know, and, you know, minimize this stuff through media, through narrative and storytelling. Like it's very clear about what, you know, the goal is.

And so, Harry Turner in Australia is saying, you know, maybe this, there's actually more to this. And he writes this, he does this investigation. And I think this was probably right around when the five eyes are being formed as well. You know, where like there's more intelligence sharing between, you know, allied, you know, Australia, UK, you know, US, Canada, that sort of thing. And man, this document is crazy. You can actually look it out, look it up. It's on John Greenwald's like Black Vault or whatever, you know, this, you know, he has all these like, you know, old declassified documents. And it is a comprehensive document that shows that the US had these anti-gravity outposts.

They were studying gravity systematically. CIA's Office of Scientific Intelligence was studying this stuff. And you had this guy, Agnew Bonson, who's at the Institute of Field Physics, the UNC Chapel Hill. Bryce DeWitt is working with him. And then you have the Gravity Research Foundation at MIT, you have University of Indiana, you have Purdue, you have MIT, you have Princeton, and you have the Institute for Advanced Study, which I believe those two were different at the time, even though Institute for Advanced Study was- What year are we in right now, roughly?

We're in, so he's writing this document in 1971, but all of those institutions, I mean, the academic institutions had been set up prior to this, but this is all like mid-century. Got it. Like 50s, like anti-gravity was super in vogue. People were really deep into gravity research. So much so that Lewis Witten, who's Ed Witten, the greatest string theorist of all time, Lewis Witten is working at Martin Corporation, which is pre-Locke and Martin. He's working in their anti-gravity division called RIAS, Research Institute for Advanced Study, which is a play on Institute for Advanced Study. And he says, we are going to figure out gravity in about the time, it took to build the first atom bomb. And you have, you know, Stanley Desser and Richard Arnwit working on these

gravity particle theory gravitons. And, you know, and so anyway, Lewis Witten says, gravity is in the wind, you know, meaning it is everywhere. But maybe there's a sub actually reading to that, which is in the wind is actually an intel spy term, which means it's scattered everywhere. So like, maybe like it's in the wind in that it's like compartmentalized in all these different places. And there's some top of the pyramid view on like where that gravity research is headed. Who knows? It gets vaporized like in the early sixties, but it was extremely

vital at the time. And so he meant, I think when he said in the wind, it was like, you know, it was ubiquitous. It was like very in vogue. And you have all these Ansel Talbert, I believe was this Air Force guy who wrote a lot about it. You have this Michael Gladitch article called Here Come the G-Engines. And all of these like, you know, patrons of aerospace are exuding supreme confidence that beating gravity is around the bend um and this ties in with the chapel hill conference uh where quantum gravity gets created in 1957 which was under agnew bonson at you know the institute of field physics at unc chapel hill which you can see in this document is one of these outposts studying gravity and they're also simultaneously funding

townsend brown who has his capacitor gravity experiments. And so, anyways, all this is to say, Oppenheimer is listed as one of the scientists deeply involved in anti-gravity research. Oppenheimer, Teller, Wheeler, and Freeman Dyson are all mentioned as being, you know, really important to this story in that Australian document. And so, yeah yeah just to comprehensively answer your question about whether oppenheimer was involved i don't know oh you answered it

that's that that's that's a lot essentially it could be we're speculating here situation where for whatever reason in this research that could tie all the way to ufos when we're talking about anti-gravity yeah oppenheimer may have either and or known too much or perhaps formulated an opinion behind the scenes that they didn't like that could totally be true yeah he would you know there's a book um called ufo crash by this ufo researcher william steinman and there supposedly was a crash right after Roswell in Aztec, New Mexico, 1948. And Oppenheimer was rumored to be part of the collection crew. Collection crew. Yeah. Like the crash retrieval guy. One of them.

I need Killian Murphy at the site right now. I need that. Yeah. But I don't know. It's unclear why they would have gone after him. He was obviously extremely idealistic in some ways. Yes. He obviously regretted aspects of the – I've become – I've become death. I've become death, destroyer of worlds.

So yeah, I don't know. I don't know where he went astray or what happened or whether he was even involved in the UFO. This is all predicated on there being some core program that he was involved in so you have to think probabilistically again there's a world in which maybe he wasn't but and it would tie directly into the lore though because it involves literally the godfather of nukes well that's the thing if you want like real disclosure you like you have to look into the historical stuff like the theorizing the crazy time travel shit, that's so interesting. I love it.

But it's like, it's, you know, as Feynman would say, not even wrong, completely unfalsifiable. You like can run in circles, like, you know, talking about this stuff. And then, you know, the other vector is like, we are waiting on the government for disclosure. You know, it's like, it's like,

just please give us the information like we'll be you know we'll be fine we're not going to be freaked out or whatever and then there's like real historical research where it's like this stuff wasn't that long ago we're talking like 70 years ago 75 years ago whatever um you know were these people at all entangled with the ufo story we just made 130 million dollar movie about oppenheimer yeah he's like the godfather of american science you know we should maybe just look into that. Like, what did he know? Yeah, you and I were talking before we got on camera about the concept of what's potentially known behind the scenes, and therefore, the argument becomes what should be disclosed.

And because obviously, people weren't listening while we were off camera. One of the things I brought up was a very early podcast I did, number 17, with my friend Alex Horowitz, who comes from your world. He was one of the early employees at 8sleep and got to spend a lot of time around the smartest dudes just like you, coming from the VC world and whatever. But he talked about things so matter of factly in that episode when we were talking about the power of social media and the the kind of

stranglehold that has on society and thought one of the things he said is that these companies referring to the social media companies and therefore also referring to the government and the power that the highest levels have they they can simulate things ahead of time. And what he expanded upon that with is he's like, they have the power based on all the amalgamated data that they can collect online of people's behaviors. They have the power to be able to put in a what if scenario and say, how would overall society react based on all the personalities we've put together in a similar way, by the way, to what the Cambridge Analytica guys did in 2016 helping Trump out because they created digital profiles of everyone. Think of that with more time passed now on steroids. These organizations can figure out, for example, what if, let's say they knew behind the scenes a truth was that aliens exist.

Here's the planet they're from. Here's when they've been here, whatever. Here's what's not true. Here's what's true. What if we told society this? What would happen? Perhaps, and this is where it gets into the do you take the side of intel because, I mean, I want to fucking know. I can handle it, right? You can handle it. But i want to fucking know i i can handle it right you

can handle it but like across society it's like could people handle it perhaps if they've put in this what if in 2015 just to figure it out like oh shit we know what's going on or we've known what's going on could society handle this if on the other side of that what if simulation it spit out that like yo this would create ontological shock that would lead to the fucking purge and people would all kill each other and the world would end and nukes would go off yeah well now i'm on the side of intelligence going we can't fucking tell them sure what's really going on and that sucks but it's like and i don't want to be like a status fucking bootlicker like yeah you don't tell us baby but if they simulate it and it doesn't spit that out and

it's like oh people could handle this and they're not telling us well that pisses me the fuck off totally so i don't know whether to be like okay all right or like fuck you yeah i think the like judo move is like don't wait on like do your own research like i i think the idea that like ontological truth is monopolized by government, I think is over relying on the government. Like I think, I do think, yeah, if they were to like declassify everything immediately, I do think it would be ontological, ontologically shocking. I do think there are people in government that know crazy things about reality, but in many ways they're artifacts about reality. It's like this thing, you know, this crash happened or whatever, or like, you know, maybe this like weird topological physics principle you know like like all these all these sorts of things that are probably like scattered

throughout government that are like kind of like insane and mind-blowing and crazy but a lot of these things can be figured out through kind of your own you know open source techniques and through like your own you know inquiry and I think it's almost this like litmus test or forcing function where like your own, you know, inquiry. And I think it's almost this like litmus test or forcing function where like your ability to figure it out is almost like goes in hand with like your ability to handle it. If you do like on your own, figure it out on your own. And so, yeah, I think this whole like waiting for this stuff to come out

and like being super antsy about like, you know, some like, you know, government disclosure thing. Like, it's just like this like amorphous bogeyman red herring. Like, what is disclosure? Like, what is that? You know, like if the government came out now, like the president came out now and said UFOs are real, you'd still have some subset of the population not believing it and super cynical about him saying it.

If you see a video, you know, maybe that's like we live in the world of deep fakes. You like, I just talked to you about like, you know, Stanford professor who's like got all the credentials you need saying like you have like, you know, mass spec isotope ratios don't exist naturally on earth. And so like what actually is UFO disclosure? Like seeing, like there are actually a lot of videos online. There are a lot of videos and there are a lot of videos that like are kind of hard to debunk you know so we live in this like weird world of like the relativization of of facts like the mass relativization of truth and facts

it's almost like you know the dark ages of past was like a you know a dearth of information this is an excess of we're drinking from a fire hose of information. And so I think that's like a really important question. It's like, what is disclosure? And can you just use this? You know, can you actively like seek it? And I don't think it's actually really healthy for a lot of people to like think about this all the time. You know, I think it's like for,

it can be really like hard for people and kind of, you know, it's like ontologically shocking, weird process. It gets religious too. It gets religious. And then it's unclear exactly how it cashes out. It's like maybe you end up in the program or something. And then what? And then you're maybe sitting in a cubicle or something.

Maybe you can do some higher level thing for them. I don't know. But like, you know, it's like you have all these people like on the internet, like studying this stuff all the time. And like, so I think. Like Charlene, it's always sunny. It's right there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. And then there's the idea that like, but reality itself is not monopolized by the government. Like, you know, that's like more of a religious thing. It's like, you can just like look into that on your own. For sure. But like it's strange that from say 1945-ish, that ballpark area, till 2017, it was this, you know, Steven Spielberg might make a movie.

We'll get a good terminator or not terminating we'll get a good alien versus predator movie yeah or something like that but like this is just a thing over there it's not like dr michio kaku's out here talking about ufos it's not like you have serious people like a gary nolan coming in and studying a lot of different things around this not just the things that were retrieved but things that have to do with the basal ganglia like you were explaining and all that like it it became after 2017 there was a shift where suddenly there was like a decision to pull it more mainstream and we mentioned it earlier but it starts with christopher mellon uh-huh member of the mellon family gotta say that walking out legally yeah out of the pentagon

and legally distributing information to the new to the new york times where i think this was also where we got the new term uap which is also interesting and saying like all right front page of the new york times like yo some shit's going on out there that we can't explain and you know you we can talk about the tic-tac stuff and all that but like now seven years later it has become much more of a of a mainstream topic so you we started this long tangent about this where you were talking about the concept of could there be a psyop that also then is on top of something that's real because it's real yeah right yeah what's your thought on the characters that have come out and we'll get to grush but let's more focus on say christopher mellon yeah lou alessandro who was

allegedly the head of the atip program in the the Pentagon, and guys like that coming out and mainstreaming this, do you think it's a pure distraction, or do you think it's all truth, or do you think it's a mix of both? I don't know. I mean, I guess Mellon was, what, Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense Intelligence for both Clinton and Bush. He's got to be like pretty pretty deep on the inside and like you know he he he has to know a lot you know um and then he obviously comes from

the the you know melon family or whatever i don't know how much that gives you as far as access to you know uh ufo knowledge probably not much but um allegedly all right um i don't know what they do with those melon parties baby you don't know i haven't gotten an invite yeah i want my invite let's go i met him once briefly but um yeah i i don't know you know i'm not sure what they're what they're up to exactly like i'm talking to lou soon so i'm excited to kind of dig in there but and you've talked to him before right yeah i have yeah i actually did a show with him in wyoming at a spot out there and then it never saw the light of day i guess why i think he like wasn't allowed to do media or something uh i think due to some like relationships he had i'm not

exactly sure but okay so he couldn't let it he couldn't couldn't let it be released was kind of frustrating did he blow your mind at all uh he had some he's really good with like analogies like these like you know like he's good at like describing like the space-time metric engineering on the paper or whatever and then like you know like the science religion thing i remember him being like there are two sides of the different you know of like a pyramid and like you're starting you know religion like at the bottom of the pyramid you're starting science it's like a totally different side and then you converge at some like a mega point and i was like oh that's

a really good analogy but no he didn't blow my mind i mean like on some of the implant stuff actually he blew my mind i mean imminent it does have some interesting revelations there but as far vis-a-vis the grush stuff where it's like no we have like actual like reverse engineering programs like elizondo to me 2017 is definitely like pushing the ball forward now i wouldn't say he's as much the tip of the spear i think the grush stuff is a little more right you know the frontier before we get to that though staying on lou it's like in in the past like lou has this religious and anti-religious thing online there's people who religiously believe every single thing he says and treat him like the second coming of jesus christ from cuba

yeah and like you know he's also i think his dad like escaped cuba i didn't make it he did i think he i think he escaped cuba i think he fought on like castro's side i think and then like ended up escaping and then and then but then i think somehow he was like he ended up in intel i think he was in the cia i think he's like a super interesting like crazy life and i think now he lives in south america or something or i don't know but he is super interesting yeah i will put a pin in that one yeah but like you have this guy who you know comes out and discloses all this stuff and it obviously blows your mind if it's true and things like that but online you have the people who follow every

single thing he says religiously and then you have the other side who treats him like the second coming of satan himself right right and there's a lot of there's some weird shit that that that's like online that people argue about over that i'm less involved with that world where i've been critical of him in the past on several episodes. I know 151 with, with Ron James, we were talking about that a bunch because he interviewed him for his documentary. We talked about it with Nick Pope and 179,

like three hours in Nick Pope has thoughts on that because he was in the government and stuff. And there've been some others where I've talked about it. It's like, I joke like fed because to lose credit, maybe if you look at, if you listen to him in full context in past interviews he said lines like i'll say i'm paraphrasing but it's pretty damn close to what i'm about to say yeah he said things like listen i'm an intel guy yeah that's what it is

yeah so here's what i do with that i say to myself from a critical lens i'm like okay i don't know what i don't know yeah maybe it's an intel op and the logic behind it is actually evil yeah i don't know or maybe it's an intel op because they figured out some ontological shock shit and like they know shit i don't and he has to come out here and do that and do his job in which case all the respect to you do your thing just like i say to bustante, nice job working for the CIA still. It is what it is. Sure. Meaning though, I can take what you say with a grain of salt.

Yeah. And so when I look at Lou, I've been critical saying like, might be a fed here. He's kind of said he, in some ways, makes me think he is. Therefore, I don't necessarily have to believe what he says because there could be something else to it. Doesn't mean it's bad but like I'll be really curious to know sitting across from the guy you know trying to get a feel for him man to man human to human if like maybe and you don't know

maybe you could pick up on that or not and I'd be curious to see what your thoughts are I think a lot of people were cynical around him because of this like threat narrative originally and like you know being involved with ttsa or whatever um that's tom delong's to the stars yes it is but i think he's changed his tune yeah exactly tom belongs to the stars academy and that you know they had a lot of interesting

characters involved there but i think i think lou has uh fed fed yeah, an interesting crew, board. But I think Lou's changed his tune a little since then. In Eminent, in the forward, he's like, Eminent, you usually associate with threats. That's not why I'm titling it this. So I think that's been kind of toned down. I don't know, man. I don't know man i don't know you know i mean i look i will say you're

never gonna get like snowden vibes from him and i even brought up snowden to him once and he was like yeah like that i've never never do that like fuck that guy you know yeah they all say that yeah could you not see how someone like snowden felt the way he did totally different scenario from UIP to be very fair here, but felt the way he did from a constitutional perspective to come out and make that type of disclosure. I have no problem with the way Snowden felt. I have a problem with what Snowden did. He took his information and gave it to the Russians. That's the problem. He gave it to the Russians?

Yes. That's the problem. He didn't come out and whistleblow. He came out and spied. He leaked information, classified information. I've never done that that i've never purported to do it i don't support it what do you mean he leaked it to the russians brother that's why he went to russia for to well his plane got down by at the time vice president joe biden he was flying brother he's living in russia i know but he was under protection i know but he was flying from hong kong to ecuador

and his plane got downed in russia you know what he had with him right he he gave up that it wasn't just a julian assange this is not like like uh private manning did where you know they were just trying to expose some things which by the way was still wrong yeah there's a right way and wrong way different situation yeah he actually compromised people who died and that is a problem there there are people who are no longer alive right now so that's been that's been disputed though problem there there are people who are no longer alive right now so that's been that's been disputed though there's there's people that say that there's no one who died as a result no there he may have risked it no there there there are there there are i can't go into details there are sources who died so it's like he's you know these people are not like

for like catastrophic disco like they're i think um you know the idealistic take is like he wants to broaden the surface area of understanding on this stuff he believes like you know ontological truth shouldn't be monopolized by the government uh and he is trying to like come out with this with this stuff but without breaking you know any of his oaths and like you know he doesn't want to end up in jail and then beyond that i you know i don't know what do you what do you think i'm curious to talk with him yeah because like you know i'm not gonna know the truth yeah i'm not a mind reader yeah i'm pretty good at sitting across from people and getting an idea i'm sure i'm gonna have my opinion doesn't mean i'm right

yeah but i will say in reading imminent i'm working through it right now yeah i have a lot of mixed thoughts yeah i think i i really think it could come back to your theory on this stuff as a whole which is that it could be a little bit of both yeah yeah right all right let's not tell him about this but let's get him comfortable with this i mean he has a counterintel background. Yes, exactly. And the dude's resume before anything UAP UFO is pretty nuts. I mean he really – dude's been around the block in some dangerous areas doing things. So he's an ideal kind of person to be a messenger of that maybe on a counterintel type basis. But again, it doesn't mean that the concept of like, yo, we have things in our airspace that we can't explain that are not our technology and we strongly believe are not the technology of our adversaries or we'd be fucked right now.

Yeah. You know, and if you're not perking up when you hear that at least. Yeah. Not saying he's telling the truth, but if you're not perking up when you hear that at least yeah, not saying he's telling the truth But if you're not perking up at that, I think that's a mistake I think you I I think it's you know Like Darcy Weir was really convincing me to do this cuz I'm like Darcy isn't he like kind of a fed? He's like well you'd be the judge of it man. Like see what do you see what he has to say? It's interesting Yeah, I can't argue with that. Yeah

Yeah, no, it's definitely interesting and i think he brings forward like specific interesting facts that are worthy of you know real investigation i do think at this point grush bringing forward 40 you know accused legacy people like from the you know the program who uh you know have gone forth to the you know ic inspector general thomas monheim and said like you know we've worked on this stuff a lot a lot of cases firsthand i think that feels like a far more productive inroad at this point you know than like talking about like random implants or whatever um or like you know some sighting you know like if we've had like a historical crash retrieval program we're trying to reverse engineer this stuff that to me feels like a vital you know like if we've had like a historical crash retrieval program we're trying to reverse

engineer this stuff that to me feels like a vital you know importance like the you know the the real tip of the spear but i don't know as far as like the food fight you know around you know it's like there's some people were like he was an a-tip on these years and this all you know and uh james lakotsky says this and he says this and it's like i read all of that and i have a mental map of that i don't like to weigh in on it because i don't want to get involved in the food fight i just don't so like you're like the druski meme not me not me no i i just want to i want to you know i want to study this stuff i'm uh you know pro uh american national security but i want to like look into this stuff and i'm i like i want to look into it like aggressively in a way that like i you know i can understand you know the

truth and so uh i hope that never comes at odds with the you know right not sec thing or whatever but like yeah i'm not trying to like hurl ad hominems at anybody i just i just want to like be in my own lane and like search for truth stay that way dude and if anybody by the way were to hit me up and be like hey like don't cover this because you're like accidentally through your own open source investigation not out of malice but like leaking like important shit that's like vital to american national security i would stop i would you would fuck yeah i'm not trying to like gratuitous yeah i care about this country i think like as fucked up as it is and like as you know all the issues that we were talking about as far as macroeconomic headwinds and whatever, I want this thing, this weird experiment to continue.

I think it's a beautiful place to live. And if somebody was like, yeah, like some of that stuff you talked about, it's extremely low cost, you know, thermonuclear 2.0 thing. Like, don't talk about it. I'd be like, yeah, I'm not going to talk about it. But, like, what's interesting is, like, I actually feel like I've become very close to truths in certain areas. And, like, it's just sort of like. Like where? Have you seen my Townsend Brown episode?

No. Wait, is that the guy the 26 year old engineer no no no this guy is a mid-century inventor he's born in 1905 died in 1985 and he worked with like most of the kind of big big aerospace companies and then you have like all these really interesting credible witnesses around gravity experiments that he did with these asymmetric capacitors. So you have a negative charge plate, positive charge plate,

neutral insulator in the middle. You pump the whole thing with kind of like megavolt range electricity and you get this weird, you know, this acceleration from the negative plate to the positive plate, even when the positive plate is faced upwards. So it's basically like ability to manipulate gravity through pure electromagnetism as the input.

And that would be this insane novel thing. And he claimed to replicate it in a vacuum chamber, which is like the main detraction on this experiment is that ion wind is causing the thrust. So if you're in a vacuum chamber, you don't have ion wind and there are other variations of the experiment that involve negating the ion wind component and like the amount i mean edward teller was a credible witness his i've met townsend brown's daughter who talks about edward teller being in the room freaking out around yeah saying i don't know how this works aroundsend Brown's fan precipitator experiment.

You have this technical consultant at Wright-Patterson, or Wright Airfield at the time, named Victor Bertrandius, freaking out. You have Agnew Bonson, who forms the Institute of Field Physics and is funding Brown, but also funding the most frontier theoretical physics at the time and establishing quantum gravity. He says strange things happen at high megavolts, high megavoltage across short distances. He's clearly talking about Brown's experiments. And then the interesting way in which this ties into the UFO story is like that magnesium bismuth, you know, that we talked about in the Gary Nolan thing. So magnesium bismuth is this thing that Brown talks constantly about

because it's a high K dielectric, meaning it stores a lot of electromagnetic charge. The higher the K factor on the material in the insulator in between the two capacitors, the greater the thrust you get. And so barium titanate, magnesium bismuth, a lot of these materials that that come up you know in this interesting way around the ufo conversation are part of brown's experiments and are in his like winter haven proposal and so that could make you a cynic and you could be like oh that's like you

know maybe it's all a cover for some gravity thing or whatever but brown himself was very trippy and he would talk about being in touch with Space Brothers. Space Brothers? Yes. And like he and his daughter had a UFO experience. And he attributes a lot of his initial work and knowledge to a UFO experience he had on Catalina Island, which is a UFO hotspot. The fucking Catalina Wine Mixer. Yeah. It all started there.

It is a ufo i just can never wrap my head around the fact that the catalina wine mixer place is where there's a lot of ufo shit but you're 100 right yeah yeah somehow those two things go hand in hand yeah so you know and there's there's a good book called um under undersea ufo base by preston dennett which documents all the you know the crazy amount of ufo signings in catalina so anyways that would be an area where like that really wasn't super popular, the Brown stuff pre-me cover. I mean this great biographer, this guy named Paul Shatskin, wrote a book on it called The Man Who Mastered Gravity.

And my piece was in some ways an homage to that book. And I think there are all sorts of loose threads in areas where i've gone deeper on the book and like i think they're weak areas of where we need more corroboration i think he gets certain things wrong in spots but if towns and brown in the world in which ufos are real if you're telling me towns and brown wasn't part of the you know kind of legacy stuff then i just don't believe the then i think ufos aren't real or something he's like he he has to be more involved than anybody in my opinion but you're also saying in some of the research related to that to bring it back to the beginning you could

be getting at some things that get a little interesting well yeah because it's like if you know and help in my interview with how put off and weinstein you know how put offs like uh if we figured anything out in the, in the, you know, maybe we did figure out some of the stuff in the world of gravity, but, uh, you know, it went black or we didn't figure anything out. And he kind of like proposes these like funny, you know, sort of thing. And if we did figure anything out, I think Brown was at the center of it. Um, there might've been alternative, know some other some other interesting things being researched like microwave beam propulsion there might be a couple of other you know kind of

kind of ways to investigate this but i think brown was pretty you know uh deep on this stuff but if you got if you got hit up that some of these threads were getting close to national security you're saying you'd back off yeah i mean if and if i got you know good rationale for it's like hey man like you don't want like yeah yeah that but but you know the the reason to not back off until that is that like this has really important civil side like our our infrastructures and decay our cities are like horrible they suck and uh and and and going downhill despite trillion dollar infrastructure bills being passed and we're not an interstellar you know uh uh species and you know it'd be awesome if we we could and and and actually transcend the limits of of spacex which spacex is an amazing company but it's really an Earth-based space company.

It's space travel for, you know, it's a Starlink and maybe Moon or Mars if we're lucky, you know, that is like after we get Starship to work, but we're not really going beyond that. And so like, I think this stuff is extremely important to explore. And so, yeah, until like I hear anything on that then i think i think yeah the logical thing is like move forward and and i and i respect that a lot i also respect the idea that like you know as a patriotic american if you felt like something was getting on the edge of where shit could get dangerous or there's blowback you know you stop that here's the catch-22 there though that's that's difficult. And my friend, Joby Warwick, who I've had on a couple times, episode 134 and episode 198, you know, he's a two-time Pulitzer winner, long-time national security reporter at The Washington Post, just incredible, incredible journalist. wrote the book Black Flags in 2015 or 2016, which is about like the rise of ISIS and is

the greatest book ever written on that, which won the Pulitzer. But like, I remember when he was in here for 134, when I was still in my parents' house, there was a conversation, maybe like 50 minutes into there, where we were talking about all the scenarios where what you're talking about happens exactly in the Washington Post room in the national security room. And it is where their sources or representatives of the government come to them when they're working on a story they know about and they go, yo guys, if you report this, people are going to die.

The other problem that you might encounter at the end of this this is something we actually get into all the time is even after you proved your case six ways to to sunday and then and and no one can really deny it you still have this this sort of final interview with with the cia in which you're presenting what you're going to say because they have every response as we see it they have a you know they should be able to respond and put respond and say what they want to say. And often they will make an appeal to you as an American saying that if you write this story, you're going to get somebody in trouble, you're going to get somebody killed. And then it gives us pause. And we stop and we think, well, is that really true? Or are they just kind of feeding us this line because they're going to be embarrassed? And often we'll negotiate. We'll

say, okay, well, if there is a security issue, if there is a person at risk, we're willing to withhold certain facts. We're willing to, and that's a difficult decision for a journalist to make. But we see that as being responsible, that you don't just say something right proportionally because you know it. There's also, you do worry about human lives and if you're going to compromise a security operation we're not comfortable doing that and so we'll we'll you know modify the report in a way just just to leave out certain details that might get somebody in trouble and and and one example where this happened was the uh so the black side prisons that we talked about there was a secret cia program where they set up prisons around the world for interrogating members of Al Qaeda that they caught.

And it was a top secret thing. Nobody knew that these prisons existed. It was outside to the judicial system. There's no accountability, no oversight. What years are we talking about? This was 2005 and 2006 is when the stories broke. Got it. And so the initial stories that we wrote, we knew where the prisons were. But we agreed in the negotiating process with the agency that we wouldn't say specifically where they were because there would be possibility of attacks on those facilities.

You know, there was real danger for people if we pointed to specific facilities. So we left that out. And it was still a powerful story. We still revealed something we felt was very important for people to know about yeah but we tried to do it in a responsible way and that's just sort of the balancing act that we have to deal with sometimes and he talks about the impossible meeting that occurs there afterwards where they have to ask themselves do we believe them or do we think they're trying to cover for something and people aren't really going do we think they're trying to cover for something and people aren't really gonna die and they're trying to hold the

dangle of human life over us so that we don't report this yeah so if you start getting in some things that get really interesting you know I'm with you and it's an impossible question to answer in your head they're like there may be points where you stop but you might have to ask the question sometimes where it's like yeah telling me this and why yeah and maybe this is sketch sure well if they're doing it to protect oligopolistic interests or whatever then i would just say the context in which you're operating as an oligopoly on you know whatever science or tech or whatever is going to go away because the u.s is going to lose its kind of primacy in these areas and so again in the world in which you have you know some sort of arms race around

this stuff which is sort of it's really dystopian even to like talk about and like frame it like that but it's the it's the world we live in and if carl nell again is right that there is this sort of reverse engineering arms race then you have have the US version, which according to everybody in UFO world has this corporatized, balkanized, fiefdom based, left hand's not talking to the right hand. If you believe this Wilson memo thing that came out, you know, where this guy head of the, you know, J2 joint chiefs, Thomas Wilson, who's, you know, in charge of all military technology is meeting with Eric Davis and, you know, in charge of all military technology is meeting with Eric Davis. And, you know, saying that he's meeting with this company and progress is very

slow and cumbersome. And they exist outside of, you know, all normal, you know, security clearances. And, you know, they don't, they kind of understand some aspects of how these crafts fly, but they don't understand all of it or whatever. If you believe that, and if you believe, you know, Lockheed Northrop, like all these sorts of companies like have like bits and pieces and they're not coordinating with each other then you have to think that like the russia china version it's just like fully nationalized and they just have like their best and brightest scientists on this stuff good point and if that's the case it's like maybe we're it's like we're cavemen and we have usb drives and the caveman has no idea what to do with the usb drive you don't know information

theory you don't have a computer to plug it into but maybe it's like galileo with an iphone which like that gallo is pretty smart and maybe galileo can open up the iphone the iphone has a graphical interface you can kind of touch it and like learn, you know, this action causes this reaction. And all of a sudden, you know, convergence as far as like ability to like use the thing gets much quicker. And like these, I have to like make these conjectures

because I have no idea. And nobody has any idea. But like to my knowledge, unless I'm living in some like Truman show, the smartest people I know like work at like i don't know like anderil and palantir and spacex and like you know these like new tech companies they're not working at these older stodgier you know like american primes they're just not you don't go to work at boeing if you're like some super allegedly what's that allegedly allegedly i don't i don't i don't know how i don't know how it at Boeing if you're like some super smart. Allegedly. What's that? Allegedly. Allegedly.

I don't know how it works if it's being done like that covertly. You know, it's like the secrecy must be like so good, you know. And so like assuming like that mental model is correct, then like it's in a lot of these people's best interests to actually start to like share this stuff and like get in front of the topic. And I think that's been happening. And I think that explains actually a lot of the last, you know, seven years of disclosure. But I think it's not maybe happening fast enough. You know, these companies aren't coordinating well enough. And yeah.

So yeah, I think you just have to ask yourself that question. enough and you know these companies aren't coordinating well enough and uh yeah so yeah i think you just have to ask yourself that question is you know is this is this are you being hushed because of like you know pure profit or whatever but i'm skeptical of the idea that these things like are profit centers now you know i think i think in for in the world in which again these companies have like craft i don't think we like understand fully how they fly i think i think there are like real challenges to like working them fully it also doesn't just have to be profit though there can be other variables that we could go on long tangents about that perhaps for stupid reasons they're just like oh the public can't know about that and like again it comes down to a judgment call i don't envy that position as far as i know no i don't either i've never been in that position for me

i don't think i have no they were told by the cia to like do the bidding you know to like like you guys are like the are plausible deniability right as the us government for being involved in this stuff i think a lot of them are patriotic people you know and then you know i i do think probably you know white collar crimes have i i do think probably you know white collar crimes have like occurred but like that like they just look like the core like crash retrieval stuff i i don't know how you do it differently in retrospect i don't know you know and again this is all based on these kind of hypotheticals but like i i could see you know a lot of the just basic core legacy program and like hiding that being somewhat forgivable.

And then I think a lot of the fuckery like around psyops and stuff and driving certain people crazy and marginalizing people based on their experience. Like, oh, that's horrible. Yeah, it's terrible. Yeah. And that should be addressed in a real way. And that's also something your boy, Grush, bravely, I think, brought up. Yeah. And that's a really – that stuff bothers me.

People's families should not be brought into these things and shit like that. But we've been putting it off all day. Let's go there on Grush. I just got to take a piss first. Okay, cool. Let's stop for on Grush. I just got to take a piss first. Okay, cool. Let's stop for one second and we'll be right back. All right, we're back. David Grush.

Yeah. So you knew him before he went public and everything. What in the name of CIA are you doing around him? I actually was in a venture capital context. Like I was looking at a company, um, that was like in, in space. Uh, it actually had come out of space force. Like the guy who started it was an officer in the space force and he started a company in, in this area. And I was diligencing it and I was talking to him about his company, but at the end of my diligence, I was like, hey man, I'm also really into this other stuff. I'm really into the UFO thing. I know you've been around the block when it comes to space. He was like, yeah, look, I'm a believer,

but I don't know that much. There are you know, there are limits to my knowledge. And like, he could tell I was deep on it. And he was like, I have somebody you should probably meet. And so that's when he introduced me to Grush. What year is this? This was, I guess, two years before I put out the thing in July of 23, so 21 is when I met him. Where'd you meet him? I met him initially at my house.

My buddy who's in the Space Force brought him over to my spot. And it was really like a trip for me because I was like, I don't know, man. You're so used to meeting these really snake oily people. And you're, I don't know, you're bringing up all sorts of things. But I don't know, a lot of people in the ufo world they're just like they're just full of shit and they and they just speak in these sort of like super hokey ways and um he really like broke that pattern i was like whoa this guy's like what about him broke that he's like clearly like mildly autistic like not you know all the way but like he's a little autistic like very high attention to detail

extreme like truth seeking and uh very sincere too and so i think you know all those things combined he's just like i just broke the pattern you know did he tell you everything that he later has told us publicly at that meeting did he tell me everything that he later has told us publicly at that meeting did he tell me everything that he later yeah like oh oh oh was he like there has been a crash retrieval program he was really high level in that first meeting i think he was kind of sussing me out but he was like there's it hinted like hey you know i think you might be on to something there might be more here than you know meets the eye but you know he wasn't he was still in the government at the time so he was very cagey around what he could share but it was clear like you know when you speak to somebody you see like

the resonance in their eye like i'm decent at like picking cues up like that and like i came out still pretty like pumped because i was like that guy like got a lot of the fringy shit I was saying so I was like there's some like recognition in his eyes that like I could just detect he's also definitely clearly a very highly intelligent guy yeah you know yeah he's become like a really good buddy and like he's he's uh next level intelligent he's really really smart did he hint at all in whether it was that meeting or your earliest meetings, whatever they were, did he talk about the idea that like, hey, I'm going to go public with this at some point? Not then. But I got to know him a bit – actually decently well before he came out and he was ex he seemed extremely frustrated at like uh

trying to like kind of reform things from within and it was clear at one point that like you know it's like he's experiencing a bunch of reprisals basically like you know uh blow back around his investigations and he was like i gotta i gotta get out you know i gotta go public basically like for his own immunity and like uh so he could actually like affect any sort of change on this what did what do you mean like he was trying to reform things from within i don't know the actual specifics but my sense was that the initial strategy was like discover this stuff bring it to the right people in charge and then try to like engage in the proper reforms around it like you know reorganize the the the legacy stuff create

academic programs around this so like it's like you know um the nuclear stuff it's like uh nuclear physics should not be classified right but like uh nuclear trade secrets should be classified like these obvious things and i think he was sort of trying to like affect this change from the inside like hey we're not we're not in front of this issue at all like we need to be like more forward-minded on this and I think he just wasn't getting any there I think he was sort of spinning his wheels I think you know superiors and and colleagues were doing all sorts of you know dirty things and um yeah i think he basically was like i got i got to blow the lid on this did he discuss with you and i'm going to come back to some of the

specific things he said for people out there who haven't heard it but did he discuss with you some of the threats or the fearfulness surrounding both him and his family that made like the blowback that, that was keeping him up at night at that time? Yeah, he, he touched on it. Yeah. He was, he touched on, uh, you know, I think certain shots across the bow that, uh, he, he and his family got that were pretty unnerving. It's unnerving obviously for him, extremely unnerving. And then unnerving for me unnerving obviously for him extremely unnerving and then unnerving for me to hear as well because i'm like man we're in communication and like i'm kind of looking into the stuff too and you know so yeah it was uh i think it was a very precarious time pre him coming

out because you know you don't have immunity nobody knows who you are you know and so if they're going to engage in retaliation, it was like pre July of 23, not after. I think now it would be much harder for them to do that. Why do you think he, minus the clear understanding of the knowledge of the subject that you had, and you know, you're a friendly guy too. Why do you think he trusted you and gave you all this? And the reason I asked that is because at the time, you're not a public figure. You don't have the YouTube channel. And like if you wanted to toss on a paranoia brain from his end because obviously things were happening in his world, you're investing Peter Thiel's money, the guy who owns Palantir.

You could make some conclusions conclusions they're like why the fuck am i being walked into this guy's house why why do you think he he was like you know what i fuck with you jesse i think it was two things i think it was one like just genuine social rapport i think or maybe three things two like a respect for how far i had gone in like open source techniques like just like discovering a lot of this stuff on my own where i think yeah you know you should give credit where it's due where yeah there are guys who are like you know extremely deep like you know richard dolan for example yes um i'm trying to think of you know other other guys you know back in the day

it would have been like stanton friedman or leonard stringfield or whatever guys you just have to give your props to as far as like knowledge on this stuff um i think those guys are often like way stronger than me like on like an amalgamation of facts and sightings like they just have more of it i think as far as like theory i'm i'm pretty deep on this stuff so i think there was like a mutual respect there uh and like coming to the same conclusions and then i think it was also uh kind of a trust building process where uh i don't know if he would have well first of all he was trying to put this out through like mainstream media initially and the washington post and new york times kind of shotat the bed and didn't end up running with the story and so i i don't especially new york times i don't know why um

i think you know i spoke to leslie kane about because leslie kane broke the story for the debrief but she's a new york times staff writer right so she wanted to do it through the new york times and i think what's the guy's name uh is it julian barnes the idea is julian barnes i think i think they're like they're like intel editor or whatever or like national security editor um like i think he's just like kind of anti the ufo thing right and so also i think like none of the 40 people could come forward like to directly to the New York Times. And I think like they doubted that the whole thing is actuallyimpeachable colleagues of Grush's, guys like Carl Nell, who set up Army Futures Command, and others saying this guy is legit and defending his credentials. And then Grush coming out and saying what he's saying.

That itself is a story. And you can copy on it with whatever you want if you're the new york times but to me not publishing that shows like a prima facie a priori disinterest or bias that's weird very weird yeah it doesn't make sense you can say like we don't know and xyz need to be corroborated but you have the icig thomas monheim saying this is urgent incredible that's him that's not you and then you have his credentials being sort of backed up. And so I don't know. I can't answer that, like why they didn't publish it.

But then I think it was this thing where he was feeling really burned by like the mainstream media. And he's like, oh, my friend Jesse. Yeah, he has like a smaller channel. But like he's really deep on this stuff. He's high conviction on it. Excellent episode, by the way. Thanks, man.

That one with him. Appreciate that. Yeah, it was fun to make. stuff he's high conviction on it excellent episode by the way thanks man one with him appreciate that yeah it was it was fun to make that one felt like really like uh i don't know it was like a beautiful moment like i was i was pumped to to do it for him and for the whole kind of movement yeah yeah yeah it's a the thing that keeps coming into my head is some of these stories i've heard from behind the scenes where Intel comes in and says, don't do that. Yeah. And that would – especially considering Leslie's there, like that's what I'm thinking, especially also given that he was getting reprisals behind the scenes. So people weren't happy about this.

There's clearly some sort of internal war inside the government and i don't know if i know the exact fault lines but it's clear there's some some you know part of the government does not want this out another you know really really does in a limited sense and over time there's nobody that i think is full ed snowden on this i yes and then they were talking about this before camera i agree yeah so um i think it's a war between those two sides i'm i'm definitely on the side of like again not knowing ontological truth or whatever and being on the outside uh i'm on the side of like i don't see any reason i've been given no reasons outside of like these rumors you hear guys like jeremy corbell or like ross colthart were like supposedly in touch with people like in and around the actual

program it's just like they always say like you know we get deep we get super deep with these people and like they all say the same thing at the end of the conversation which is if you knew what i didn't know you wouldn't be pro-disclosure you know you hear that over and over again and so i'm not inclined to dismiss it like i think um there are there's a credulousness to that world sometimes of reporting but i also think they're doing good work and like it's you know it's it's uh important to not throw the baby out with the bath water and kind of parse the good from the bad um you know i think i think some of the stuff that they're that they're bringing out is really good and then sometimes it's a little indiscriminate at times or whatever but your idea though that it's like pieces of the government, certain people know certain things about certain topics and then they don't know about these other 50 topics.

Yeah. Same thing for this other team over here but they don't know about this one. You know what I mean? Like there's this compartmentalization that happens and then maybe there's very few who are actually like individuals literally who are like read in on on most of it therefore the secret is kept in all these different places where you need all of it together to really make sense of it and frankly the same people who are saying if you knew what i knew well they only know one piece out of the 200 that would be my strong bias is like you meet some of these people with like you know hardcore intel

credentials or whatever and like i just don't think like they have the epistemic ability like yeah you might have like a treasure trove of data proving that this stuff is real like tons of crashes here and like you know this thing was detected here and what you know whatever but I think that and like you know the ability to like on like holistically have like a world view like an expanded world view like a metaphysical understanding of reality is like very different and I think you can be outside the government and have into like clear intuitions around that uh you know even that are even greater and more kind of top of the pyramid so to speak they're more kind of there's more consil greater and more kind of top of the pyramid, so to speak. They're more kind of, there's more consilience

and more inter-domain knowledge and connections you're making than, like, the dude that, like, handled the thing in this one situation or, like, you know, went through these XYZ files. And, like, they're sure that, like, reality's weirder than we realize and that the government has some handle on it. But they don't, I don't think, have, like, don't think have like this like clear picture right what's going on and uh that's why you know i found it really interesting there's a story this guy robert sarbacher who um you know uh was in touch with

wilbert smith who is a you know uh uh there's written correspondence between the two wilbert smith is this um you know a canadian engineer and sarbacher is this american engineer and he's this uh nuclear expert and uh he is running the washington national labs he's close with townsend brown is doing the gravity stuff and i think he's in on the ufo stuff too in 1987 he writes to william steinman who's this ufo researcher saying you know the rumors around the ufo crashes are essentially true or substantially true or whatever um and he says you know john von neumann vannevar bush were involved in these things like he goes on to like you know list names and maybe he was speaking in sort of coded fashion

you know uh i think he says fundamentally true or substantially true and that can sometimes mean you're true on the surface level but you're wrong on the underlying details or whatever um but i think he was you know maybe uh uh somewhat you know involved in all this stuff and anyways he you know says he wasn't fully read into the program but he points people who come to him in in again in the 80s like you know later later in his life to this guy eric walker who's an electrical engineer and the president of penn state and eric walker according to him was part of this like mj12 lineage or whatever this like core group of ufo people and the first thing that eric walker asks

you know the UFO the the inquirers is he goes what do you know about the sixth sense and they say what are you talking about and he's like what do you know about ESP extrasensory perception and then he says you're chasing windmills like it's like literally your epistemic aperture is incapable of the disclosure it's not like disclosure is like this like semantic information it's not like this file that he could just give you it's like you're literally like you're you're chasing your tail you have no idea right what you're dealing with like you're like almost like not even like able to comprehend this stuff and i that's always stuck with me because i i do think

um it's like a it's like a you know knowledge on this stuff is like a drip, but it comes from something higher. It's not coming necessarily from the government or whatever. Like if you're focused on that drip, good luck. It's going to take like a long time. You're going to get like, you know, little bits and pieces or whatever along with everybody else over the next 10 years or whatever but you know i think i think developing your own epistemic aperture is like this really crucial thing in this in this whole story um and so yeah i i think that's like a very telling a telling story that it's it's really about your own epistemics in some ways more so than yeah and then then you have the people like Grush though who have access to things and find it. Yes.

And, you know, what's the term? Epistemic aperture? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He develops his own epistemic aperture. Well, he's a good example. He's got both. He's got, yeah. Sorry for my annoying.

I can tell you spend a lot of time around Eric Weinstein. Yeah, exactly. I got it from him. Yeah, that whole universe is its own lexicon of words. But yeah, I think he's like you know uh really creative mind and like is really strong on like theory as well as like he clearly is like has a lot of actual hardcore info well but before i ask the next question just for the people out there listening who need to be rehashed on some of the things he revealed or haven't heard it before i know most people obviously have heard this

can you just review that like the highlights of what he revealed? And then I have a question about some of those findings. Yeah, sure. So Grush? Yes. Basically his findings are, we have had a legacy crash retrieval program that goes back not only to Roswell, but to 1933, this Magenta crash in Italy, that basically aerospace companies have been involved in this, various aerospace companies since then. They've not always been subject to kind of traditional government oversight and FOIA. The clearance system that classifies this stuff is the NPQ, DOE clearance system, the

atomic energy stuff, not normal you know, normal national security, you know, top secret, TSSEI, like that, that that sort of line is not applicable here. Some presidents don't even have a need to know. And that you have these kind of balkanized, you know, again, corporate entities that are engaging in like trying to like reverse engineer these crafts. And he brought forward 40 people who worked on these programs to the inspector general, you know, the intelligence community inspector general. And so those are his claims. And he claims that non-human biologics came with the crafts or piloted the crafts as well. And that the materials in the crafts contain heavy elements. So elements with isotope ratios that don't exist on Earth, but heavy elements.

Elements like in places on the periodic table where you can't use centrifuges to mess with the isotopes. It would be extremely hard to manipulate these if you're just a random scientist. So yeah, some pretty bombshell claims yeah a lot so our very first phone conversation we have we got into this long talk about what what could it like how grush could be telling the truth but set up to do it and and i've talked about this on other podcasts and i've said i really want jesse in here to explain it from his lens because he'll explain a lot better. But what I had asked you on the phone was like, is it possible that you have someone who is both curious and smart, like Grush, who within the levers of government is identified as a, oh, that's a dude who's going to look into some stuff if given the opportunity. Is it possible that as a part of some sort of PSYOP, if you will, there were a lot of nuts

left on a trail for what they deemed to be the squirrel grush for him to pick up and run with to go out and disclose things that actually aren't true? To which you gave me an answer, the short answer of no, I don't think that, I think there's too much here. But what's, what was the full logic there that made you go, there's too much here for that to be the case? Yeah, well, I just knowing him and like how detail oriented and like, you know, autistically like obsessed with like detail, I think, is one thing there's you know possibility like they're you know trying to in some super coordinated fashion sending him down the wrong path but like i asked him that in my interview with him like on here you know in our show and he was like yeah but like i had other

people back channel with the people talking to me and like those people did like they'd intersected with my own career from like decades prior or whatever or a decade prior and like you know they wouldn't lie to me and they especially wouldn't because they don't know each other they wouldn't be able to like coordinate to that level and so like i just i think that's like a you know it's i asked him and he was like i'm 99 sure that did so like even he's thinking probabilistically, 1%. Yes. But I just – yeah, I don't know. I don't think that's likely.

And then you have all the like Robert Hastings, just like the UFOs and nuke stuff where it's – all the open store stuff just weirdly comports with the classified stuff. So again, if you're like a freakishly good counter Intel person or whatever, and maybe you're trying to trick rush and trick crush into tricking me or whatever, um, maybe you comport all of the internal stuff, you fabricate internal documents to like, look like the open source stuff in a way that like, you know, it all coheres perfectly. But Teal's answering the phone at palantir like i got just the guy but like it's like if you're if you're trying to if you're trying to do that then i mean first of all like whoever would do this like grandmaster job genius genius like incredible

job um but i i just don't see it and i see like the amount of like disparate it's like take this pathway of like reasoning right you have robert hastings ufos and nukes you have a an extremely credible database of 170 people who do not get into this job due to any sort of histrionic attention-seeking desire for UFO, you know, for themselves. They don't want to be famous, you know, and UFOs keep showing up around our most precious important assets. And every time they do, the Air Force Office of Special Investigation shows up and they threaten them and say, we're going to screw with your career and you know swear them to secrecy and in certain cases the people get deleted

from the government like Bob Jacobs and then their superiors later have to say they were real okay so what happened with Bob Jacobs they said they said he never worked at Vandenberg and he's a photo instrumentation specialist there that in 64 sees this you, UFO wrapping around this dummy nuclear Atlas V warhead. And so, you know, you hear these stories over and over and over again. And then you could still say, right, like, okay, it's a credible database. Like, these people are really smart and high agency.

But, like, maybe it's, like, still this, like, US deep state thing. And, like, they, like, somehow, like prime all the the nuclear people and like it's this you know maybe that's like this pro like you know trying to like make people think that we're protected by the aliens or something but this is it's like orbs are showing up i don't know some you can spin some tall tale but then you get into the fact that there are nuclear there are ufo sightings in bariloche in argentina because there's a civilian nuclear grid there and there's a literally a town in japan in in eno um in in right in fukushima next to the prefecture where they have all their nuclear energy that is like dedicated to ufos

and there's a museum there that's all around ufos and so like you hear enough of this stuff and you're like there is a there there i don't like anybody that's like this isn't worthy of investigation i'm like you just have like bad bayesian reasoning like you have this a priori bucket that you just put like you put this stuff into you put it in the impossible bucket you don't look at it you're not looking at it earnestly like you didn't listen to what i just said if you actually take in the fact pattern that I just gave then you have to think this stuff is real and then yeah is it there a possibility there's some mastermind being like and somehow atomic secrecy is overlaying this stuff and like these scientists

were involved in the Australians also thought they were involved and like you know uh the magnesium bismuth is showing up here but it's also in the towns and brown so like maybe i don't know but like i don't know that's that feels that feels like all of a sudden if that's your null hypothesis the null hypothesis becomes more of a stretch more of a logical stretch than just there's some intelligence here that's not human that all of a sudden becomes a more epistemically acceptable base case and actually like if you're what are you saying you're saying there's some cabal that's controlling bariloche controlling japan and controlling our nuclear assets like what are you actually proposing if you look at the real fact pattern and so i i don't

see too many people like if you had like sean kirkpatrick on like the old head of era yep he's not like earnestly engaging with these like you know nuclear cases or whatever like there is clearly a connection there and so like that yeah that's that's that's all i need to know there's like something clearly very very real here and then like all the grush stuff just like backs that up it like coheres with it like pretty perfectly and then let's like okay you think it's a psyop like to what end to what end is it like purely a psyop you know purely yeah yeah like maybe maybe you know there are people in this movement or whatever in the ufo disclosure movement with ulterior motives maybe part of its adversary signaling maybe part of its tech protection maybe part of its refresh the talent pool on some secret science programs

maybe it's like yeah think of a whole host of things that like are interior ulterior motives that you're gonna like push this stuff with um having said that just the the the fact pattern itself i think is just undeniable and kind of unimpeachable and that's what interests me and like I have a sense of some people doing some of the other stuff I don't want to talk about it because I just want to follow the truth

and I don't want to get I don't want to fuck with anybody I think it's probably dangerous enough to be looking into like the core ontological truth stuff and so I'm not trying to like you know and to you know maybe some of these psyops or some of the you know some of these you know ulterior motives are like it's not my it's not my motive is like the truth but like i don't i don't want to with you know somebody having some you know trying to you know uh maintain american supremacy in some of these areas like whatever you're doing your thing

you're and you're also within the community itself it's clear and it comes across in this conversation but also in your actions that i've seen online now for a long time like you're you're a peaceful truth seeker in this way you know you're not trying to get in the middle of some of the much of the bullshit drama that happens like in ufo twitter and stuff like that it's about like okay if there's people who allegedly have access to some information here, let's hear them out. Let's talk with them. I don't care who they fuck with and who they don't fuck with. Like, you know, it's what it is. And we, we need that in order for the space to be taken seriously. We need that. And it seems like, well, I think you

guys straight up said it. So it's more than it seems like you also were able to turn around your colleague eric weinstein into looking into this because for a long time he was like yo fuck that yeah what was it that really it's it's not like he's out there saying oh the aliens are here yeah but he's he's looking at it in an educated questioning truth-seeking way it seems at this point what what what conversation changed that what what what action changed that to where suddenly he's like all right jesse i think two things happened for him one is he started to become more public about his physics theory of everything the geometric unity stuff which i think he'd presented in oxford in like 2013 but like

you had half the people being like, this is it. And then the other half is like, I don't know what he said. And like, you know, kind of like he developed it and then he went on Rogan and he sort of published it again. And I think the combo of him presenting it and like there being nobody to like corroborate or falsify it. Like it's like he can't talk to anybody about this stuff and then he starts to get into like this very interesting other angle to the ufo thing which is like these guys like john wheeler and bryce dewitt working on science that might have not met the eye this like idea of the golden age of relativity and this kind of like you know extreme interest in the gravity

stuff in the 50s and so he's like in his mind thinking maybe i've figured some stuff out on my own but maybe some other people have gotten there before me maybe there's some program around this what's going on and he does a whole follow-up you know rogan episode it was not the one with terrence howard the one before it where he says some crazy things like jim simons of like renaissance technology that was february 2023 yeah he was like maybe there's some secret you know physics stuff going on there you have like the number you know it's the greatest concentration of differential geometers and stuff you know it's i don't know the best line in there is michukaku yeah yeah michukaku is out of control yeah he goes

and you just see joe just he's like get michukaku in here with me and joe's like why yeah yeah that's so funny yeah exactly exactly so he says he yeah so so he is you know there's a combo of like maybe these guys have figured out some of the stuff that i've figured out yeah uh and maybe there's this whole like you know secret nationals maybe maybe you know uh the the physics that i've been working on has been like weaponized or something and then there's this confluence of that and the Pentagon admitting there are things in the sky that you know we don't know how to identify and you have these two Office of Naval intelligence reports uh I think one in 2020 and one in 2021 and you have you know Associated mainstream media articles and press around that and i do think

uh you know eric's a very heterodox first principles thinker but he also has to like walk this tightrope of like i have to maintain a level of respectability among like academics that i'm like trying to like spar with because he is on their level i think intellectually for sure like above a lot of their levels yes and like when i hear sean carroll being like oh like he doesn't even like i think kirchheim uncle asked him about eric and he was like that guy's like an amateur he just has like pet theories around he's like throwing him in with like brian that's not good yeah i'm like dude just shut up like what have you done you shouldn't do that yeah yeah like you're just like a pop quantum mechanic i mean yeah he's obviously extremely smart but like

but like uh yeah you shouldn't do that. You shouldn't like condescend, you know? Yes. And so anyways, I think Eric, all of that's to say, like, I think he is very first principles, but I do think there's a difference between Jesse, his podcast partner and like venture guy at, you know, Teal Capital being like, yo, UFOs are real. Like, look at this like look at this look at this that's different than like pentagon new york times being like you know we just we don't know what this stuff is you

know this stuff is this stuff is real and so i do think to his credit he immediately credited me with like okay you've been pushing like i thought you were like brain dead in this one area i appreciate you pushing me on this for like a long time but i do think that allowed him to you know talk about it more publicly and like really take it more seriously yeah well i mean the the other 500 pound elephant in the room here with all these things we're seeing in the sky is something i don't think it's come up a little bit today but not really directly and that is you know what could be weaponry yeah that we don't know about versus everything else. I mean, for me, a major case with that, a guy as a witness who I've really liked is David Fravor, because he's very matter of fact, and he has the video on the screen. He's like, look,

this is what I do. This is my expertise. This is what I saw it went yeah i don't see tic-tacs i don't see shit like that doing that yeah that's not something that is a part of ours that i know about meaning draw your own conclusions here i think it might be alien but like i don't know is it something else you know you could go way too deep with this and like get out of control to things you don't know but like i've heard from a lot of, I guess, people who might know something about something. It's hard to say. Yeah. That like DARPA, for example, could be 40 years ahead of us in technology.

So when you see something like that where it is an unidentified aerial phenomenon, right? It's not – we don't know if it's alien or not. Does your mind go towards for some of these things you know maybe that is our weaponry and most likely not an adversary's otherwise they'd have taken us over by now that's it's possible i've heard things to that effect i do think if you look at the actual observables of you know the tic-tac it's like it's extremely it's like just crazy maneuverability and like you know you're breaking basic conservation of momentum so it is like new physics or it's like a spoofing thing that like

but then like how do you spoof the FLIR and then they say they have radar how do you spoof the FLIR the radar and the actual eyewitnesses yeah that's a lot of spoofing so then you're getting into like a crazy claim which is like we have like physics you know in deep black aerospace and so i just think that requires like a lot of follow-up and evidence of course but yeah i've heard certain people say that that might be the case and i yeah i just don't i don't know what to think about it you know if that is the case it's of the townsend brown lineage would be my belief yeah i my brain also a little conspiratorial goes towards some of that operation paper clip and

some of the things the nazis were on to yeah you know because you basically saved like some of the worst people on the earth who just happen to be very smart yeah that's something you brought them over here we know some of them put us into fucking space and shit and it's like what were they able to maneuver you brought up a lot of amazing research today about anti-gravity and projects that were going on in the 50s and 60s but it starts in in nazi germany yeah yeah and that do you know about like kammler stop have you heard of that so more stop yeah have you heard kammler stop film man so there heard of that? Kammlerstab? Yeah. Have you heard Kammlerstab? Fill me in.

So there's this SS officer named Hans Kammler. He's the most ruthless Nazi. Like Albert Speer, who's head of all armaments for the Nazis, said, Hans Kammler is the most ruthless, unscrupulous guy I was forced to collaborate with. And so're talking about a Nazis worked with like Hitler and Kerbal's and you know Himmler and he's saying that this guy is like the craziest most ruthless guy by 1945 Hans Kalmer was in charge of all aerial armaments for the Nazis so the v2s a4s everything and he had this secret weapons program called commerce dob orstab or Škoda works. And it was based in two places in Czechoslovakia and Poland. And so modern day, you know, obviously there was, these were Nazi

occupied and you had these three scientists, Richard Mita, who was doing high voltage stuff, which is very similar to what Townsend Brown was doing. So, you know, similar experiments, like, you know, kind of a short distances, high voltage, you know, maybe asymmetric capacitors. You had Rudolf Schreiber, who was this German technician who had it designed for a flying saucer. And you had another guy named Viktor Schauberger, who lived in Austria, who we know, he said in his diaries, it says, or I think it was a letter to his son. He says, I'm in Czechoslovakia and what I'm doing is top secret this is 1942 right after an SS officer knocked on his door and so you have all these guys kind of you know being housed in like these you

know secret weapons programs in Poland and Czechoslovakia a lot of it is actually underground and they're working on all sorts of crazy stuff and Mita had had a you know plant had designs for flying saucer. All of these guys that I just mentioned had, you know, designs for flying saucer. There's another guy named Henri Kawanda, who's a Romanian engineer who was, you know, was also under Nazi occupation. He had a patent for a lenticular aerodyne saucer. And he, I think, also ended up contributing to skoda works so skoda works was like a real thing and they were working on like the most advanced weaponry at the time and at the same time you had uh you know uh foo fighters which are these controlled balls of lightning they seemed like you know they're intelligently propulsed or controlled or whatever, with no vapor trails,

moving in and out of Allied fighter flight paths. And so I don't know if there's a connection between that and Škoda Works, but Škoda Works was definitely doing some really crazy stuff. I mean, the rumors where they might've been working on, you know, flying saucer, but there are also rumors. Have you heard of Die Glocka? Do you know what that is this legendary Bell this German Bell have you heard of that maybe it's this it looks like this sort of like egg shaped or bell shaped you know uh thing and there's a ceramic chamber on the inside it's metallic on the outside and you you uh use a lot you know extremely high voltage energy you create like a torsion field around this, you know, object, you have a person go inside the object, and you slow the inertial reference frame. So gravity and time are coupled. And so if you create, you know, the only ways to affect gravity are basically through mass and energy, right? So you have like an extremely big planet, you're

gonna, you know, you have this gravitational inward force. But maybe if you have like extremely high amounts of energy, you can also create sort of like these synthetic gravitational effects and then you can maybe mess with time as well. If you think about it, like the closer you move to a black hole, you know, time slows. And so the idea would be create this sort of torsion field and you create this different inertial, you know, this different reference frame on the inside of the bell is on the outside and so time is actually moving slower on the inside versus the vis-a-vis the outside and so if it's moving like a thousandth of a you know

of of the pace of the outside you can walk out of that thing you know after a you know certain amount of time you're a thousand years in the future and so um uh it's a crazy it's crazy concept so i that is the lore that to me is the least believable thing that could have come out of skoda works but we know that or we we have some evidence that ernest growitz who is head of the ss medical division that um joseph mangle worked under Grauitz was maybe involved in this project. Oh boy. As, yeah, as was a guy named Walter Gerlach who was studying gravity, you know,

at his university prior to this work. And so it's this really interesting thing. This guy named Nick Cook wrote this book called The Hunt for Zero Point. He documents it really well. And he meets this Polish journalist named Igor Witkowski. He's probably like the deepest on this and um cook comes out saying I don't know if this was real but there's like a ton of evidence that like Skoda Works was real that the like these you had these

crazy secret weapons programs that were like they put the concept of Wonder Waffle like German Wonder weapons to shame uh you know it's like-level stuff but he doesn't know you know whether the Bell existed exactly or like what exactly was going on but it's a fascinating inquiry and there's actually a book by this guy named Tom August on and it's I think it's called blunder and it's basically about how there was this fighting for the scraps of Skoda works in 1945 and how the Russians ended up with a lot of these this this stuff and a lot of the frameworks that might have come from Skoda works and then the u.s. ended up with a lot of it and at you know originally around you know 45 it was thought that Kammler died or would disappeared and now we know actually from a couple of

declassified documents that kammler ended up in the u.s of course he did and that that we took him back and so that's this like really crazy kind of you know punctuation mark at the end of this this story that like is is very important and not super well known um and so yeah I mean I I don't know exactly what you what you make of that but I think there was a lot of tech transfer at the end of the war and it wasn't just you had missions like tycom which was you know for Communications and and Asos which is for nuclear stuff and you had like you know you had um Werner you know you had Heisenberg and stuff you know like in like this like wiretapped room like trying to figure out what he knew and stuff that was kind of maybe like the white world

nuclear stuff the way nick cook puts it um you had black world nuclear stuff going on and that was under kammler and so calmer was doing yeah weird nuclear stuff we and then aviation stuff the final story here which i think is just mind-blowing because all this is still kind of in the like lore mythological realm but this maybe brings it down a little more is there's a guy named john warner the fourth who's actually um uh chris mellon's cousin of course and so he comes from the mellon family his uh grandfather is paul mellon so paul mellon is one of the founders of the cia and john warner is having like a martini with uh paul mellon and you know his grandfather's grandfather is like recounting all these crazy stories and he's like you know three or four

martinis deep and he says you know i remember being in modern-day Czechoslovakia, and I'm standing on top of a massive craft, and it's a saucer. And John Warner says, is that the one with a bunch of the BMW engines, like, you know, taped onto each other? And he goes, no. And he just, like, kind of changes the subject. But it was a trip that he and Alan Dulles, Alan Dulles, obviously, third director of the CIA, you know, were on. Godfather of Operation Paperclip. Yeah but it was a trip that he and alan dulles alan dulles obviously the third director of the cia you know we're on father of operation paperclip yeah it was exactly and dulles was doing all sorts of crazy stuff like around the war he was going gone fully rogue you read devil's chessboard yeah yeah yeah what a book yeah yeah exactly and anybody anybody who watches the sheehan episode i just did read that book because it corroborates all this Sheehan stuff too.

You know, so yeah, you have a lot of weird evidence around like Nazi secret stuff. Like they might have figured out more than meets the eye. And then exactly what they figure out, I don't know. It gets weird. You have, who is Wernher von Braun's uh why am i blanking out his name we're von braun's mentor oberth herman oberth yeah he ends up at convair bell uh or sorry no convair doing interesting stuff um and then von braun obviously ends up here it's you know start like runs our space program he and arthur rudolph who like literally ran the german space they

created the vt rocket like they're like running like the nasa saturn program like it's literally like that nasa saturn program is like a transplantation of like the nazi space program it's like pretty fascinating the three-way race for resources after world war ii and the immediate aftermath and the years after that between russia the united states and britain and the secrets of the world that exist from that race is one of the most underreported great mysteries of our time yeah you know it's just the the depth i mean you get into the biological weapons stuff too you get into you start to wonder like how did these guys not have a manhattan project and not get to that and like and this is pure crazy speculation on my part but

sometimes i do wonder yeah if within those evil sadistic little nazi brains of theirs apparently weren't that little because they knew some science but like you get the point yeah you know if like maybe they had gotten to something like that like a nuke maybe they had gotten to some insane biologics yeah and they had just enough left of whatever lack of humanity they they had yeah to say maybe we shouldn't give it to the stash that motherfucker's a little crazy yeah yeah yeah like me like i don't know yeah but i think about that a lot because the shit that they were on to yeah and then the deals they were able to make and let's be honest the dulles's had some sympathies if you will towards the nazis that's very well documented long before the war and then

when the war was closing off obviously yeah but like if that was a part of it i would oh my god i would love to be a fly on the wall during some of those years or a fly on the fucking humvees as they pulled up on shit and yeah you know tried to figure out what the fuck to do here because there's there's some crazy stuff yeah that came out yeah well you also just look at even more prosaically like look at the fighter jets like like that and then look at the rocket like the vt rocket was like 20 years ahead of like anything coming out of the us like the nazis i don't know if this is like a pro border science argument because they like that there are no like moral qualms about like looking into all sorts of i think there's like experimental

cell block nine where they were like doing human experimentation on like, you know, Mingala doing like weird joint. All this stuff is so fucked up. It's so messed up. It's crazy. And so I don't know if they just made progress because they were so like psychologically like unbound and like just down for like whatever.

No, no, it's a valid question. But it's interesting. Like it calls up a lot of questions like how did they make that much progress that quickly because so so much came out of that that time yeah and you could just say you know like you know that's what war war creates but the amount of progress was like it was next level compared to i mean now it's yeah it's nothing close to that it's at least you know as far mean, now it's, yeah, it's nothing close to that. It's at least, you know, as far as like physical world progress. Fuck yeah,

man. And then, you know, it's obviously towards like a super ruthless evil. And that's the start of some weird shit that then is used on our end, which is just like morally, that's like one of the ultimate quandaries, but we could go down a huge rabbit hole with that.

I know I got to get you out of here soon. This has been awesome today. Yeah, man. One last thing before we go. It's come up intermittently today. Your Danny Sheehan sit down. Yeah.

He's going to be coming in here thanks to you. Hell yeah. But like what do you make of that guy? Because he's been – to the title of your YouTube video, he's been involved in like every American conspiracy. And like you did such a good job with him, but you're just sitting there and you'd say – you'd ask like something that's getting towards something crazy where you're like he's not going to say something on this. And he goes, well, as a matter of fact, I was actually there for that one. I know exactly who killed Kennedy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like how do you even respond to shit like this? Like is it crazy or do you – it sounds like there's a lot of evidence he has below stuff too. That's the thing. So I would – if I were to hear what he said five years ago, crazy or do you it sounds like there's a lot of evidence he has below stuff that's the thing so i would if i were to hear what he said five years ago or 10 years ago like basic american history jesse or whatever coming out of you know columbia whatever american history i would have been like

this dude's crazy he's off his rocker and then you read a book like Devil's Chessboard. Yeah. Was that David Talbot? David Talbot. That's right. And like you – I met Oliver Stone once and like spent a little bit of time with him and like watch his movies. Jesse, you're trying to make this podcast go all night, bro. My point is, is like you build up – we can go all night. You build up this like gestalt view of like, all right, I'm pretty sure Dulles came after Kennedy. The guy hated him.

He wanted to scout his CIA to the wind. He had just fired Dulles. He had the Bay of Pigs. You come out not knowing the motive, the chronology, and the people, but knowing that JFK was probably an inside job. And then you hear – Probably. Probably. Probably. You got to think probabilistically, but yeah.

You're saying 99.99999% probably? That's what I'm saying. Okay, just making sure. Same probability that we're not alone. Right. You know, you think, you know, probably. And then you meet a guy like Sheehan, and again, I would disbelieve it if he weren't plugging in gaps in a framework that I already basically

believe in. But he's like, you know, it's, yeah, it's like it was Dulles, but it was like this recommissioned S4, you know, his whole, his narrative is insane. It's this idea that like, Nixon, who was, you know, VP under Eisenhowerhower but it was also kind of running a lot of national security for him kind of commissions hughes howard hughes to create this s force which is this like you know team of assassins to kill fidel castro and shea guevara and they brought in the mob too they brought in roselli and giancana exactly traffic conte all these people who like are expedient allies because they you know want the bat the Batista drug run, you know, back up and running or whatever. And then this S-Force gets like kind of sunsetted and then like rolled up into these other operations, Mongoose and Fox something.

I don't know, whatever. And then when Dulles gets fired by JFK, he retreats back to the Brown Brothers Harriman, which is the investment firm that like sort of formed the CIA. Yeah. And he then calls the shot that like the S-Force is going to get recommissioned. Sleeper cell, let's go. Yeah, let's go. And then to take out JFK and he like – Danny mentions the name of the guy that he thinks he gets. He's like, yeah, it was Miguel. He goes, yeah, Ricardo.

No, this guy, Morales. They called him Roger Morales. Ricardo Morales. I don't know. But it's wild. And so, again, I would not believe it if it weren't like so in line with my prior understanding of what had happened which is that you know come on like it's like you have all these things like the magic bullet the idea that like jolly west like mk ultrad like jack ruby right afterwards like you literally can look at the

jfk thing for like five hours and be like i think there's some weird here you know oh yeah um so yeah it's wild man she hands like a it's like a national treasure I don't understand how after that interview I asked I was like dude how are you alive and he was like you know Jesse he's like yeah you can't be paranoid and you got to just do your thing I mean I don't know gonna kill this hair yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah he's a little Yoda hair yeah oh my god I can't wait to do it he's the best man you're gonna have an awesome time with him and yeah i'm fired up you get to pick his brain he's the best and he reps lou elizondo in the past he repped stephen greer he was like early in the 90s i think like into ufo litigation somehow well he always ends up somewhere yeah he's like zellig or something

he's always like the forrest gump of law he's look he's literally forrest gump of like american history and in the most interesting like it's crazy like yeah it's like and then james mccord hit me up after watergate and like i represented him like what yeah i'm gonna dunkin donuts as a matter of fact yeah it's it's wild man he's uh he's funny and he i don't know how he pieces all this stuff together he has a jfk infographic that will literally blow your mind it's like you'll come out more confused than my yo again it's like the amount of names and like it's like a web of he's like oh just look at my infographic and i look at it and i'm like am i supposed to understand this deep like

the infographics are supposed to be like you know four or five boxes and like you know it's like it was like a hundred different things i was dying of laughter it was but well we'll have fun i'm sure that'll come up he did he did a really good podcast with my buddy danny jones earlier this year too like the guy's just gold so yeah it'll be great but listen man this is the first of what i hope as many podcasts on here hell yeah man you are come back dude you are better than Bill. This is like, this has been incredible. There's going to be a Patreon episode from somewhere within here too, where we went off

topic for like 40 minutes or something like that. So people can hit that link in description, but we'll have your channel down there. Everyone go check out the videos. They're so good. They're so well produced. Love what you're doing. And thanks for going through all of it today, man. I love what you're doing. Appreciate you having me. Appreciate you having me. Awesome. All right. Everybody else,

you know what it is. Give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace. Thank you guys for watching the episode. Before you leave, please be sure to hit that subscribe button and smash that like button on the video. It's a huge help. And also if you're over on Instagram, be sure to follow the show at Julian Dory podcast, or also on my personal page at Julian D. Dory. Both links are in the description below. Finally, if you'd like to catch up on our latest episodes, use the Julian Dory podcast playlist link in the description below. Thank you.