Julian Dorey Podcast - #246 - UFO Lawyer on The Vatican, Underwater Aliens & Crash Retrievals | Danny Sheehan

Episode Date: October 25, 2024

(***TIMESTAMPS in description below) ~ Daniel Sheehan is a Harvard attorney who has participated in legal cases of public interest, including the Pentagon Papers case, the Watergate Break-In case & Harvard psychologist Dr. John Mack's case. He is currently dedicated to advocating for the public release of information held by the government surrounding the issue of Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena (UAP). EPISODE LINKS - PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/JulianDorey    - MERCH: https://juliandorey.myshopify.com/   - AMAZON STORE: https://amzn.to/3RPu952   GUEST LINKS - X: https://x.com/danielsheehan45  - WEBSITE: https://www.danielpsheehan.com/  FOLLOW JULIAN DOREY INSTAGRAM (Podcast): https://www.instagram.com/juliandoreypodcast/   INSTAGRAM (Personal): https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey/   X: https://twitter.com/julianddorey  JULIAN YT CHANNELS - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey YT: https://www.youtube.com/@JulianDorey  - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Clips YT: https://www.youtube.com/@juliandoreyclips    - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Daily YT: https://www.youtube.com/@JulianDoreyDaily    Get $150 Off The Eight Sleep Pod Pro Mattress / Mattress Cover (USING CODE: “JULIANDOREY”): https://eight-sleep.ioym.net/trendifier ****TIMESTAMPS**** 0:00 - Yale; President Carter UFO Sighting; Jesuit UFO Task Force 9:42 - Iran Hostage Crisis & Iran-Contra 16:50 - Faith & Ethics of Law; Jimmy Carter hires Danny to investigate Vatican UFO Files 24:37 - Vatican/Pope Hierarchy Breakdown; Faith Questioning 36:43 - Catholic Elites, UFO Subject & Biblical Implications 50:01 - Project Blue Book; Inside the Library of Congress 57:23 - Pentagon UFO Crash Retrieval Program; Danny UFO Archives Recovery 1:08:26 - Danny Investigating Photo of UFO; Jimmy Carter & Carl Sagan 1:17:14 - George HW Bush & UFOs; Catholic Church Hiding UFOs/Supernatural Capabilities 1:29:29 - Underwater Alien Bases; Rept1lian Groups 1:42:32 - Birth of AATIP (Pentagon’s UFO Program); UFO Crash Retrievals; Intergalactic War 1:51:48 - Gorbachev Deal, Dick Cheney, NATO & UFOs; Christopher Mellon & Conflicting Background 2:04:38 - Intel Agencies & UFO Disclosure; Luis Elizondo; Consciousness 2:19:06 - Pressure for Truth, Potential Nuclear Fallout w/ Russia 2:31:12 - Sinister Implications of UFOs; Dr. John Mack 2:44:48 - Rockefeller-Funded Danny Sheehan & John Mack’s UFO research; Abduction Experiencers  2:56:26 - John Mack’s Theory 3:13:15 - Shocking Disclosure & What It Means 3:27:42 - New Paradigm Institute CREDITS: - Host, Producer, and Editor: J... Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It's an extraordinarily sophisticated technology that's been developed to take them down. Now, that doesn't mean that they haven't compensated for that, but there were a number of the vehicles that were recovered, intact vehicles that were forced down by this technology. But this is also, so the people who are involved with this and getting this forward are the people who were part of, definitely part of of atip and part of awesap that's right before that and that those programs regardless of however they morphed into each other yep they obviously they talk all in skiffs it's highly secretive guys like how put off shot filet are involved some of the brightest minds in

the world but still you say that some some UFO crash retrieval groups in the Pentagon were far more secretive than that? Oh, yes. So how sinister is that stuff, then? Uh, very. Very.

Hey, guys. If you're not following me on Spotify, please take a second to hit that button and leave a five-star review. It is a huge, huge help to the show. You can also follow me on Instagram and on X by using the links in my description. Thank you. You are a machine, man. Well, we'll see. I've never seen anything like this i mean you so when we left off with the last episode for everyone else out there we thought we were coming right back in here to record yeah yeah so did i yeah but they said you got to get out of here because you got to get over to yale you know we had a dinner with the professors over there yeah so i had to dash out and go do that so you guys did that you get dinner with the professors, hang out at Skull and Bones all night. Yeah, we did. We paid homage to Skull and Bones.

We put a little leaflet on their front door inviting them to come over to the UFO discussion. So you do a big UFO discussion today on campus, which actually, like, what did that entail? You're trying to get it as a part of the educational curriculum? Yeah, we're trying to get it into the academy, the general university community, to say, look, this is silly. Now that the United States Defense Department has acknowledged that they've been lying all this time in hiding this stuff, and you've got testimony coming in from the people directly involved in the top secret program, acknowledging that the government is in possession of a non-human origin extraterrestrial spacecraft, and the bodies that they've now confirmed are non-human, you would think that it would have some impact on the university.

You know, that they ought to be kind of teasing some courses about getting ready for this, but they haven't yet. So we went over to Yale. We got invited over there by some of the professors. So we went over and did a presentation today to the student body. What professors, if you don't mind me asking? One of the professors of philosophy. It was one of the professors of two professors of philosophy, in fact. One of them was an East Asian philosophy professor, and the other was an American Western philosophy guy. And then they had the student body that was—they have a UFO student organization there.

Oh, wow. Yeah, and so they sponsored it. So it was the students themselves that asked us to come. And they had professors from a couple different universities. Ohio State University professor was there. They had a professor from a university in Albany. And so they had a group of people there. And I briefed them all on what was going on in Washington with the legislation and the hearings and stuff like that. Yeah, I see it all sitting right there. We're going to get into it today.

Yeah. But now you're back in Hoboken, straight off Yale. Yeah, it was hard to stay away. It's hard to stay away. Well, thank you for coming back. I appreciate it. There's a lot to get into. Our first episode, we basically went through every single conspiracy of the 60s and 70s that you lived through. It was pretty incredible. A lot of them. Yeah. Yeah. So now we're, I'm sure there will be other cases that come up today as well that didn't come

up yesterday, but specifically with ufology and, you know, the space of what's going on in our skies, you have been around this since I believe you said the Jimmy Carter administration? Yeah. 19, it was the fall of 76, right after the November election that I got contacted. And you would explain this quickly in our last podcast, but for people who didn't hear that, why did he contact you? Well, what happened is that President Carter, when he was the governor of Georgia, had seen a UFO back in 1969. He was at a Lions Club, a speech that he was giving as the governor,

and they went over to the restaurant for dinner, and there was a UFO right in the sky. It was like the two lengths of a football field away. I mean, it wasn't... The new BMO VI Porter MasterCard is your ticket to more. More perks. More perks. More points.

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It's important to us, too. Toyota, for what matters most. Like a mysterious light in the sky or anything. It was like a full UFO and he saw it. 11 men saw it with him. He filed an official report with the U.S. Air Force and with NICAP. So when he ended up getting elected president, it turns out he was elected on November 4th of 1976. On the 19th of

November, well, he was still down in Plains, Georgia. He hadn't even come to Washington yet that he sent word to have the head of the Central Intelligence Agency come down to Plains, Georgia and brief him on the UFO issue. And it turns out that the CIA director at that time was George H.W. Bush, and that he refused to brief him, saying that as the president-elect, he had no need to know this information, which surprised President Carter. And so Carter, rather than taking on the CIA and spending a lot of newly earned political capital, just contacted the Congress and said, what's the story here? You know, I've been elected president. We're supposed to know about this. Can you tell me what the

documents are that we've got? And so they referred it to the Science and Technology Committee of the House of Representatives, and they contacted the Congressional Research Service, which is this big professional service research operation they have at the Library of Congress. And so they set up a special investigation and research project. I didn't know anything about it when it happened. I mean, I had met Carter when he was a candidate because I was at Jesuit headquarters down there in Washington, D.C., and I was in the public policy office of the, they call it the social ministry office at the Jesuit headquarters. So I was responsible for helping to formulate the policies of the Jesuit order with regard to all 15 of the cabinet-level positions and all eight of the major federal agencies. And so one afternoon in early May, I guess it was, probably, of 1976, I was over in DuPont Circle by where our headquarters is, right on Embassy Row.

And I ran into the head they had a new headquarters there during the primary uh it was the democratic party primary and they had the the office for uh for uh candidate jimmy carter so i just popped in and said look at uh i told him who i was and it turns out that stew eisenstadt was there stew. Stuart Eisenstadt was his director of public policy for his campaign. So we sat down and had a long conversation, and we set up a meeting for candidate Jimmy Carter to come and meet with the heads of all 54 of the major religious denominations that had headquarters in Washington, D.C. And so our office coordinated that. Our Jesuit headquarters coordinated that. We set it up over at 100 Maryland Avenue

over at the Methodist building on Capitol Hill. And we had a long meeting with him. We got him actually in that meeting to agree that if he were elected president, he would issue a presidential executive order cutting off all U. all US military aid to any foreign dictator that was determined to be systematically violating the human rights of his own citizens.

And that is the executive order that he did in fact issue when he was elected. When you say you guys, you're talking specifically about like on this case on behalf of like the Jesuit community and all the religious... Although yeah j what we had oregon the jesuit headquarters we'd organize a thing called the washington inter-religious staff council uh of that there were 54 major religious denominations that had washington dc offices they would kind of monitor legislation that was going on etc uh in briefing their their different uh. And Jesuit headquarters had organized bringing them all together to form a new coalition so that we could set up task forces so that we could not duplicate each other's work. And so that we had that thing set up. So when I happened to meet

Stuart Eisenstadt that May of 76, I told him about the group that we had and that we'd be happy to interview Carter, and we did. So we formulated this plan to figure out one specific thing that we would ask him. We all coordinated that and we asked him to commit to agreeing to sign such an executive order and he did, which interestingly enough, ended up being the executive order pursuant to which he cut off all military funding to Anastasio Somoza in Nicaragua later and the Shah of Iran.

So both of those dictatorships fell, like within six weeks of being cut off from U.S. military aid, which originated the Iran-Contra scandal later, because the CIA people that were dedicated to trying to maintain both of those authoritarian regimes, you know, decided to go around the fact that both of them had been ousted, basically, and they wanted to set up a covert operation to try to reinstate them. And that generated the Iran-Contra scandal, which I was involved in later. Yeah. Could you actually explain,

you just explained the basics there, but the parties involved with that? Because this is another one that gets skipped over a lot where people are like, oh yeah, Iran-Contra, CIA, Bill Casey did some shit and that was it. But you had a president who at that point, there's reasonable evidence to say he already had dementia coming on. And which time is this? Ronald Reagan. Well, Reagan, well, actually, this happened right from the very beginning that this started under Carter. When President Carter issued the presidential executive order cutting off the military aid to Anastasio Somoza, he fell from power, still back in 1978. And then in 1979,

Carter cut off the military supplies to the Shah of Iran, And he fell from power in December of 79. So it was still under the Carter administration. And that was part, of course, why they generated the October surprise, the whole effort to, you know, to get Carter out of there, because he was wreaking havoc, you know, with the covert operations of the CIA. He was actually ousting and cutting off U.S. military funding to fascist regimes. Because of what you did. Well, actually, as it turns out, yes. And so the bottom line is that both of those regimes had collapsed before Reagan came in. But what happened, as people may recall, is that the 52 hostages were taken in Iran after the Shah of Iran fell. The

Khomeini regime came in, and they actually, the students that were supported by the Hezbollah ended up kidnapping the 52 hostages in the American embassy and holding them hostage. So there was this long set of negotiations that were going on in the American embassy and holding them hostage. So there was this long set of negotiations that were going on in the final days of the Carter administration, his first administration in 1979 all through 1980. And what happened is President Carter had put together a task force to conduct these negotiations with the students and indirectly with the Hezbollah that were supporting them in Iran and was on the brink of getting an agreement to get them removed. And all of a sudden, Bill Casey, who was the campaign director for the Reagan-Bush, George H.W. Bush candidacy for the Republican nomination,

they ended up reaching out to the Hezbollah back channel through Theodore Shackley, who was the director of covert operations under George Bush Sr. when he was the CIA director under President Ford, that they reached out to the Hezbollah and they made a deal with them, saying that if you will hold the hostages and not release them to the Carter administration, which would give him a big lift and he might succeed in winning a second term, what they did is they said if you'll agree to hold the hostages and therefore undermine his displayed capabilities, the Reagan-Bush administration, when we come in, will provide tow missiles to you. Incomplete violation of the ban that had been placed on him. So anyway, they made that deal, and that was handled by Bill Casey and George Bush, Sr., who was the vice presidential candidate at the time, and Theodore Shackley. They organized all of that. And so they withheld

the hostages. And then you'll recall when Jimmy Carter lost the election on Inauguration Day, January 21st of 1980, there was actually a split screen of Ronald Reagan being sworn in And the hostages being walking across the tarmac and boarding a plane to be freed In case anybody missed the direct connection that was there and that was the so-called October surprise and it was a book written about it by Gary Sick, who was the naval admiral who was part of the team of the National Security Council that was involved in conducting negotiations on behalf of the Carter administration. He wrote a major book exposing the fact that that was a conspiracy that was undertaken on the part of the actually the Bush vice presidential team that Theodore Shackley was one of the advisors to.

They're the ones. And so it wasn't Reagan. And most everybody knows that the Reagan Bush administration, the Reagan Bush administration, that George Bush basically ran everything. Oh, he did? Oh, yeah. He was not only the head of the 5412 Committee, which ran all covert operations in the National Security Council, he was the one that ran the savings and loan reorganization, where they started changing all the rules governing savings and loan banks that didn't have to require security for the loans.

He's the one that was in charge of the drug enforcement agency, the war on drugs. And he's the one that of course ran the off the shelf enterprise during the Reagan administration. He's- Off the shelf enterprise? That's the Colonel North, Oliver North enterprise- Oh yeah. That generated the entire Iran-Contra crisis during the Reagan-Bush administration. That was all coordinated through George Bush's office. Donald P. Gregg was his national security advisor, vice presidential

national security advisor. He coordinated the meetings. He had, we got the the internal talking papers that we got copies of them from the meetings that they had with George Bush senior and Donald Gregg, his national security advisor, along with Felix Rodriguez. Oh yeah. Our friend Felix. Who was running the Ilopango airlift in the Ilopango in the, in the, in the, in El Salvador, you know?

So we, we had all that information. And so that we were... When you say we... There was the Christic Institute that we set up out of the Jesuit headquarters. We set up the Christic Institute when we did the Karen Silkwood case 50 years ago. It's coming up now on the anniversary.

It's going to be November. November 13th was 50 years ago that she was killed on the way to deliver the documents from the Kerr-McGee nuclear facility to the New York Times. Yeah, we talked about that for people who didn't see the last episode yet and are watching this. That is in the last episode. It's a pretty wild case.

But you set up this Christic Institute. You get the relationship with Carter. We'll come back to the UFOs part with him but like you get the relationship with him before he's president that's right through the Jesuit organization effectively that's right so you know it seems like faith and being a part of the Jesuit community has obviously been a huge part of your life did you grow up Catholic and you're like the Jesuit yeah I got a got a sister, Colleen, and a brother, Patty. You know, the Irish is Patty's pig, as they say.

Yeah, so I was raised Catholic my whole life, you know, but I didn't go to Catholic schools. I went to regular public high schools and went to Harvard College and stuff, so I didn't go to Jesuit schools. But I ended up, after graduating from Harvard Law School, and we talked about it, going out and practicing for a few years, and I was so disenchanted with what it is I was discovering about the United States government that I ended up going back to Harvard, talking to John Rawls, who was the head of the Department of Philosophy, about his book called The Theory of Justice. And he invited me to come back to Harvard to do a PhD on comparative social ethics,

comparing and contrasting different worldviews in the different kind of values that they had, because I was trying to get an understanding of how people could be functioning so completely differently, myself from a lot of the other lawyers and the kind of people that they represented, the things that they did, I thought was just completely antithetical to everything that I'd been learning, as the proper ethics. And so I went back to the Divinity School to do the Ph.D. work. And that was where I got recruited by Father Roger Couture, who was the professor that taught the course on the theological underpinnings of human rights. And he approached

me at the end of the course and said he was kind of fascinated by some of the papers that I had written at that level, and that wanted to know that if I was interested in being interviewed by the Jesuits, because they were establishing a new headquarters down in Washington, D.C., that all 100 provincials around the world had been called into Rome by the Superior General of the Jesuit Order, and they were getting set to issue a whole series of documents on social justice, the 32nd General Congregation documents, they called them, declaring that the members of the Jesuit order in the Catholic Church would have an obligation every day to take active steps to deconstruct the sources of injustice,

both in Western civilization and in Eastern civilization, because otherwise we were potentially going to have a major thermonuclear war between the superpowers. And so they believed that their job was to deconstruct the structural sources of injustice. And it actually said that it was their obligation to do something every single day to help deconstruct those sources of injustice equal to their obligation of preaching the mass each day. So it was pretty intense. And so I had just gone to the Divinity School to do the reflecting on the comparative social ethics. But I ended up getting contacted and asked if I would allow myself to be interviewed for that post. And I did. And so they immediately asked me to go to Washington and to help head up that office on social ministry. So that's how I got there. Yeah. It's fascinating to get that background because I always find the,

especially when you have the collision of like religion and aliens in these conversations it can get sometimes like they fly right in the face of each other other times they get combined in people's thoughts but you know to bring it back to to carter then when you were called in by him after he was elected to help in this process where he was trying to get information from Congress because the CIA wouldn't give it to him. You had said yesterday when we recorded the previous episode that you had thought about aliens when you were growing up, but it wasn't. It's not like every single day you were studying all of it. But at this point, now you're starting to, as a lawyer on behalf of the president, go digging for the biggest secrets that could exist. Well, it was interesting that it happened indirectly.

You know, it was through Rosemary Chalk, I mentioned, I think, yesterday, that Rosie Chalk, she was the executive secretary for the National Academy of Sciences. And she's the one that asked me whether I'd be interested in getting contacted by the study that the president had asked to have put together. And the Congressional Research Service had already been tasked by the president to do this investigation for them in the research project. And then they reached out to me. Dr. Marshall Smith, who was the head of the Science and Technology Division, called me on the phone, who was a friend of Rosemary Chalk, and asked if I would be interested in participating.

And I got it cleared with the superiors at the Jesuit headquarters. They thought this was an important issue. They did? Oh, yes. That was really interesting. When I told them that I'd been asked to be special counsel, I talked to Father Bill Davis, who was my immediate superior, who was the director of the social ministry office. We had organized an assistant provincial for each of the 10 provinces of the United States to be our board of directors.

So we had a board to go to. So Father Davis went to the board, the 10 assistant provincials for social justice, and they all agreed that this was an important issue. Wow. That obviously if the president of the United States wanted to have information about the UFO issue, they realized that this was an extraordinarily important issue, and I was authorized to participate. So that's how it started. And then when I was asked to contact,

when Dr. Marshall Smith asked me to contact the Vatican to see whether we could get access, whether the Jesuit headquarters could get access to the archives. When was this? This was in January of 1977, right after, just after the inauguration. So in coordination with all this stuff you're doing with Carter, this is a part of it. Yes, yeah. And so I ended up going back to the headquarters and saying, look, I've been asked by Dr. Marshall Smith to contact the Vatican to see if we could get access to the archives, anything they had in the archives about the UFO phenomenon or the extraterrestrial civilization that was assumed to be responsible for the UFOs. And that went back to the provincials, and they agreed to have us write the letter. So we wrote the letter out of Jesuit headquarters to the Vatican, asking for access to the information about the UFOs in the Vatican archives. What was that conversation like, though, with your, I forget his name, Father daly father bill davis bill davis not the

golfer john daly no no it was funny bill davis bill davis was a was it was interesting the jesuits are interesting guys i found you know they've heard they all have uh at least one phd uh it's a it's a requirement a condition precedent for being in the society. Many of them have more than one PhD, actually. So they have to go through the entire undergraduate school. And of course, they've been around since 1547. And so that early requirement that they have these academic credentials was absolutely unique in Western civilization. I mean, the level of education that they have. They run 28 universities in the United States. Including Georgetown.

That's right, including Georgetown. And they also are the primary scholars at the Vatican. They're the theologian scholars. They also run the many of the pontificates, the papal commissions. They're the leading diplomats primarily for the Vatican, the Vatican State. They're extraordinarily highly trained professionals and they do a lot of the intelligence State. They're extraordinarily highly trained professionals, and they do a lot of the intelligence work, actually, for the Vatican. Yeah, what is that, when you say intelligence work, in 2024, what does that mean?

Well, it's like, you know, the Vatican State, they're actually a national sovereignty. And they have diplomatic cords, they're actually a national sovereignty. And they have diplomatic cords, they have ambassadors to each of the different countries, and they have an intelligence service. And it's mostly Jesuits that are, you know, because a lot of it is analysis, you know, foreign policy analysis, international analysis, history studies they need to do, so that the Jesuits perform this kind of service for the Vatican, for the Pope. They work directly under the Pope. They're not under the authority of the Vatican. I mean, most people don't realize that.

Really? The Jesuit order is the only one that they're directly accountable to the Pope himself, directly, each of them. But that feels like semantics, because that feels like the same thing. No, it's different, because there's two different structures. There's the structure in the Catholic Church where you have the local parish priest is like a private. Then they have a monsignor in some of the parishes who is like a corporal. Then they have the assistant bishops who are like the first officers. You have a

lieutenant. Then you have the bishops that are like captains. You have the archbishops that are like colonels. Then you have the general officers that are the cardinals. And then you have the conclave of the cardinals that come all together that is like a major cabinet, if you will, for the pope. And so there's a whole military structure to that order, but the Jesuits are not involved in that. The Jesuits are completely separate. The Jesuits don't run parishes. They don't run parish churches. They're professionals. They're lawyers and doctors and scientists and diplomats and other trainings that they have

their PhDs in, and they answer directly to the Pope. All the types of jobs that make society go, if you will. Yeah, or make a nation state go. So that they're the lawyers, and they're the doctors, and they're the scientists, and they're the scholars for the most part. They run the universities, etc. And so that when I was asked to become general counsel for their American headquarters, I thought that that was a worthy kind of post. I thought it was an extraordinarily interesting position to be in. You know, we had access then to the Jesuits in 43 different countries that were provided intelligence to our office. We, you know,

we got to meet with them. We got to, Father Bill Davis has been in every one of the 43 countries where all the Jesuits are. He was the photographer for the Jesuit magazine. That America magazine was their, their like time magazine that they have, a monthly magazine. And he was the principal photographer for them prior to being the head of the social ministry office. So I was out in Washington. Wendy's most important deal of the day has a fresh lineup. Pick any two breakfast items for $4. New four-piece French toast sticks, bacon or sausage wrap, biscuit or English muffin sandwiches, small hot coffee, and more.

Limited time only at participating Wendy's Taxes Extra. There I was in Washington, D.C. In that position, I became a member of the Bar of Washington in addition to being a member of the Bar of the Southern District of New York. And so I was functioning as legal counsel in that office. So I got to formulate proposed policies with regard to all 15 of the major cabinet position offices, positions on defense policy, international policy, foreign policy, economic policy. Wait, in the U.S. government? In the U.S. government, yeah.

What do you mean you got to format policy for those? For the Jesuit order, for what we would propose. What you would want. that you need to have more funds for PL 480, which is sharing excess agricultural products in the United States with people that are dying of starvation around the world, for example, that we should have increased social security for our people, we should have better medical benefits, etc. We were involved in a social ministry, and we were advocating that that is an integral aspect of the Judeo-Christian social ethics, which is part of what I was studying at Divinity School.

Were you guys like registered lobbyists on K Street kind of deal? Or is this because you're a religious organization, you can have... That's right. You don't need to be registered as lobbyists at all. Okay. No. But when you had this conversation with Father Davis, and he says, yeah, go for it. Help out Carter with UFOs. Was there any type of philosophical conversation about like, well, wait a minute, what does this mean for our religion? Well, it was interesting. At that point, it was such an obvious great position to be in, to be able to do that. I hadn't been asked yet, but I was shortly thereafter, I was asked by Dr. Marshall Smith to do a seminar for the top 50 scientists in SETI,

which is the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence out of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena. And they asked if I would go and deliver a closed-door seminar for them. And then we began to have these intense discussions at Jesuit headquarters saying, okay, you've got your undergraduate degree in American constitutional law and stuff in history and political science from Harvard, and you got your law degree from Harvard Law School in American constitutional law and foreign policy and stuff, but you've just started your PhD work on theology at the Trinity School. You haven't completed that yet. So we have to have some discussions about if you're going to be asked

to deliver a three-hour seminar to the top 50 scientists at SETI, what are we going to be saying here theologically? And what's essential to understand is that theology, at its very highest levels, has to do with the extraordinarily subtle realms of science. This is a science that we're dealing with here. You know, the faculties that our human species is capable of, you know, that are part of the entire religious traditions of meditation and the siddhas and dietary habits and abstention from overstimulating your body with too much eating, too much drinking, too much casual sexual activity that is so stimulating to your body, the subtle discernment that we have of actually other faculties that we have are smothered by that

activity. And so that's a science. There's a science to this of learning how to meditate and how to do all these kind of things to kind of increase your spiritual sensitivity. And this is a science. It's not hocus pocus. It's not all mysteria tremendum. You know, the Jesuits approach this in a very practical, realistic kind of scientific way.

And so what we did is we sat down and had a set of conversations about the fundamentals, about what our position is that we're going to be taking on the cosmological question, the questions of the origin of the universe. How is it that our material universe came into being out of an otherwise infinite and eternal sea of completely undifferentiated consciousness. What was the motive point to generate the initial discontinuity in this field of infinite and eternal undifferentiated consciousness? What was the motive force for that initial discontinuity? And when the discontinuity multiplied through a process, which is like mit mitosis into generating more and more and more of these discontinuities that ended up becoming inchoate quantum fields, actually.

And the inchoate quantum fields would then come together and form leptons and muons and the electrons and protons and the actual material manifestation of the universe actually takes place out of an infinite and eternal field of consciousness. And so that actually the actual inchoate quantum fields are, in fact, nodals of consciousness. So consciousness pervades the entire material universe. And yet, outside of the boundaries, the boundaries of the total sum total of mass and energy in the universe, there's an infinite and eternal sea of completely undifferentiated consciousness that abides. And there's a lot of factual questions that obtain as to whether or not we as incarnated human beings, whether we have access to the, for example, do we have a faculty that is capable of

directly and immediately discerning the unitive phenomenon that bonds every single ultimately irreducible integer of matter in the entire physical universe into one unified harmonic whole? Do we have a faculty like seeing or hearing that is evolving teleologically in our human family where we can actually experientially discern that unitive phenomenon so that we can discern what kind of conduct, individual or collective, is either harmonious with or disharmonious to the natural order of the universe. This is what natural law is all about. And this is an area of intense theological scholarship. Millions of man hours and women hours in the convents have been spent reflecting on that, and that the Jesuit order houses a lot of that theological information in the Catholic Church. It's fascinating because it seems like any conversation like that where you are

talking about the galaxy and you're talking about things that are even beyond what we've been able to get a true concept of, yet it goes outside of what the traditional Bible teaches, and yet you're having these conversations inside of a Catholic organization. That's certainly fascinating. The second thing, though, is that, you know, you're the general counsel at this point. So your job is to represent the interests of something that you do believe in, right? Like you're a Jesuit, proud Catholic, the whole bit. So you're part of an organization that you respect and admire and believe in the idea. But you're being presented with something that's so complex and gets right to the meaning of life, like UFOs or alien existence. And yet you have to go into

the room objectively as an attorney to your clients in this case and say, what do we think? And the reason I put it that way is because essentially you are going in there, I don't mean to call you a robot or something, but as a lawyer, again, objectively, you have to be able to say, okay, I'm going to go with what my guys want to do here. At the same time though, you're still a human being and you're still now getting access to things that, you know, or at the precipice of getting access to things that you haven't had access to before that are certainly enough to make you question some stuff. So did the human being side of you ever get in the way of like, you know, just assuming you were going to do exactly what, take the stance that they wanted to take?

I told them from the very beginning that I wasn't going to do that. That I wasn't there to represent the Catholic Church, and I wasn't there to do anything. What I was there to do is to advise them, you know, that I was trained independently. I had independent judgments about what it is that was necessary to be done. I would share that information with them. I would make proposals to them, and they would either accept them or modify them. And then we would go forward, and we would get some kind of a consensus among our board, who are the assistant provincials, the 10 assistant provincials in the United States for social ministry. And then we would advocate this.

So I was always, that was one of the things that disturbed the people in the law firms where I was, is I was never obliged to just do whatever their clients wanted us to do. That wasn't the kind of lawyer I was. What I was doing is saying, this is what you should be doing. You shouldn't be racially discriminating against people in your pricing of your stuff for the A&P Corporation, for example. You know, you shouldn't do that. You know, you shouldn't be discriminating against people in the Arkansas-Missouri power company

just to increase the rates for black people because you could do it. You shouldn't be doing that. You know, they viewed that as kind of unorthodox that, you know, basically who did I think I was? Who I was is who you came to me to ask me to come to your law firm. That's who I was, you know, basically who did I think I was? Who I was is who you came to me to ask me to come to your law firm. That's who I was. You know, I didn't come to you begging to come to work for you. You know, you asked me to come there. And so that I always, it's always been that way.

And so that when I was at the Divinity School, it was the Jesuit order that came there to ask me if I would come and become their counsel. And so that's the role that I played. And so I was constantly forming independent judgments about what I thought was necessary to do. I would explain to them why I thought this was the right thing to do. And in 99% of the cases, they hadn't thought about it enough. They didn't have anybody in that kind of a position to do that kind of thinking for them. That's what you were there for. And so that's what I was there for.

Yeah. And so when I sat down with Father Davis, I started to explain to him. I said, look, I've done enough of the studies at the Harvard Divinity School about comparative social ethics, et cetera, to know that the basic worldview that an individual person adheres to is predicated upon the answers that he or she provides, at least unconsciously, to four major pillar fundamental questions. One is the cosmological question as to how the universe came into being. The second one is the so-called teleological question, which is how is our universe unfolding? Is it expanding and dissolving into nothingness or is it going to oscillate back and forth in a state of mass and energy? What is the teleological end game for our physical universe? Thirdly of the four pillar

questions is the ontological question is how does consciousness relate to the material realm? And what is the role of consciousness in kind of forwarding our own biological evolution? Is there any kind of role played in your intention and to evolve your consciousness? And then fourthly, the fundamental one is the epistemological question, and that is what is it you look to? How is it you go about determining what truth is? Is it predicated on just the exercise of your five physical senses that you can then process through your intellect, or do we have other faculties? Do we have, for example, another faculty by means of which we can directly and potentially immediately experientially discern the bonding phenomenon

that bonds every single ultimately irreducible integer of matter in the universe together into one unified harmonic whole? And more importantly, do we have an additional faculty over and above that that is able to access the infinite and eternal, the exterior to the sum total of mass and energy in our universe? Do we actually have access to the infinite and eternal field of consciousness? Not as a separate entity. This is that whole mistake that people make. This is not a noun that we're talking about here. This is a field of infinite and eternal consciousness. And there's no noun to it. It's a verb. It's a non-transitive verb of being, you know, and that's what people get confused about.

Yeah, what do you mean by that? I'm still confused. What I'm saying is that one of the major heresies of all religious understandings is to try to nounify what they call God. They've developed this word for it. It's a noun, and they talk about it like it's a person that you're talking to like a great white bearded guy sitting on a throne somewhere right you know to nounify this is a heresy that's why you're never allowed to pronounce the name right it's a heresy to to announce the name to say god yes because because then you've known about it nine of nounified it, and it's not a noun. It's a phenomenon. It's a consciousness that abides.

That's right, that it's a misjudgment, a fundamental misjudgment, because you're basically off by one. And if you don't understand that the field of consciousness is not a noun, but it's a non-entity. But for purposes of what people out there do use in common parlance, in this they do use the word god sure you are saying that consciousness is effectively where god resides that's right well that that uh again you're still downifying what what it is is your your location of your consciousness at the the nodal point, at the core of your being, that you have an unconditioned experience of consciousness. And I say unconditioned, unconditioned by your place of birth, unconditioned by your nationality, unconditioned by your genetic makeup of the physical body that you're incarnated in, unconditioned by your astrological predilections, the tractor forces that you've been exposed to in gestating in your mother's womb, in

the time and place of your gestation, those kind of tractor forces that, for example, suck billions of tons of water off onto one side of the planet every single day. These kind of tractor forces that you're exposed to by the celestial bodies that generates the whole science of astrology. As to why it is that an excellent astrologer, you know, they could sit down with you and by knowing exactly where the time and place was of your gestation, actually, could start telling you what your favorite color is, what your mate looks you know what your favorite political attitudes are and you sit there and you have a grown personal cry right in front of them by going wait a second somebody's been talking to you you

know some of my friends have set this up you know that in in the feel like every chick i talk to these days is doing that well well they'll see right through you on that. So what I'm saying is that in the incarnated state that our consciousness is in is that we reside in a vehicle that is conditioned, and therefore our direct experience of reality is conditioned by these predilections that we have in our body. And part of the science of theology is how to rise above that, how you fast and therefore you're not consuming the foods that affect you, you know, that you don't drink the alcohol, you don't do the drugs, you know, you don't do that kind of stuff unless you're really having a good night on Saturday night. I'll take you to Dear Maude

later, we'll do it. You try to refrain from that. And so once you start recognizing that there's this issue about consciousness and that you can in fact direct your own consciousness and start elevating your consciousness into a higher and higher state, that you can then discern things a lot more objectively, okay? And that from that point of perspective, you can make judgments that are less biased, that are less predisposed toward, you know, your ethnic background or something like that, you know? And so that that's your consciousness, that's your conscience, that's what's there, okay? And so there's a science to this whole thing. And when you're in the – I mean, they were quite, I guess,

pleasantly surprised that I was aware of all of that when I came to be general counsel for them. And so I started addressing this when we were actually given the opportunity to prepare this three-hour closed-door seminar for the top SETI scientists on the theological implications of contact with an extraterrestrial life form. We began to have these discussions. So I laid all of this out to the Jesuit assistant provincials and explained what I thought was the important implication of this. Because, you know, here we have a, we come from a star system that's 4.5 billion years old, a planet that's 3.5 or 3.7 billion years old, but the entire universe, the entire universe is 13.78 billion years old.

So we're looking at other galaxies and other star systems in our own galaxy that could be six, seven, eight billion years older than ours. So you could have another incarnated species with incarnated consciousness that had another eight billion years of teleological evolution. And if you assume that there's some kind of, like as Teilhard de Chardin, for example, believes that there's an unfolding complexification of consciousness, is that we are teleologically evolving over time into a higher and higher state of consciousness, okay? And we're becoming more and more sensitive. We're becoming much more

concerned about life around us, about our environment, etc., and that this is a process that we've become separated when we evolve the intellect, when we evolve from then make conscious decisions how to coordinate our conduct in the physical reality of where we are. Just more respectful of the environment, more respectful of other life forms, et cetera. Be less combative. So these are things that we began talking about in deciding how we were going to present this lecture to the top 50 scientists at SETI. So we addressed...

And this is in the 70s. This is 1977, the spring of 1977. So that's when I said to Marshall Smith, and I said, look, if you're asking me to deliver this three-hour seminar to the top 50 scientists at SETI on the theological implications of contact, I'd really like to be able to get at some of the other documentation that we're gathering together for the president so that I can be better prepared. And she said, well, what would you like to see? And I said, oh, I'd like to see the classified portions of Project Blue Book.

And she said, well, I don't think they're going to let us have those, you know. How much did you know about Project Blue Book at that time? I knew a lot about Project Blue Book at that time. And you'd studied it, I guess. Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I knew all about Project Blue Book. For people out there who are unfamiliar and listening, can you just explain what that was? This was the third of, fourth, actually, of a series of studies that was done by the united states air force this went on from 1952 to 1967 uh 1969 actually as it turns out in that they purported to be investigating the sightings of the ufos uh that they, it's been now revealed beyond any dispute whatsoever that it was a total

cover up. Right. And that there were over 700 sightings that they were totally unable to explain away. There were just too many credible sources, there were too many radar readings, photographs, etc. that they, so there was an entire section of Project Blue Book that was classified. But the public part of it, they tried to explain away virtually all of the sightings, saying that, oh, this was like searchlights reflecting off the bottom of clouds, or it was flocks of birds that you misperceived, or it was like a regular airplane of some sort,

or it was Venus, or it was swamp gas. Or a balloon. Or a balloon, yeah, right. So they had all these bogus explanations for all this, right? So, and I've been following this very closely because as I indicated to you yesterday, I was going to go to the Air Force Academy to become an astronaut because I was very interested in trying to figure out how we were going to relate to this extraterrestrial civilization. And I thought that during my lifetime, this was going to come to pass. And so that I was paying a lot of attention to this, trying to figure out how to be prepared to do this. So I'd become very familiar with a lot of all the individual sightings, the contacts, etc.

So I spent a fair amount of time monitoring this whole process as I was doing everything else in the world. Back then, we didn't have Google though and stuff. No. So are you just like hitting the library and finding anything you can there? Yup. That's pretty much it? Yeah. What's even available?

Because there's so much, there's an easier ability to just completely hide things back then because there's not as much mass communication. That's right. No, no, it was, you had to want to find it, you know, but there were lots of stuff in, you know, Popular Mechanics and Scientific American, and there was lots of, there were lots of magazines that were astronomers, you know, talked with each other about it. There were scientific magazines. So I just, I was fortunate I had access to libraries and so I would spend time, you know, learning about this. And so I ended up knowing a lot of this stuff. So I sat down, and when I told Marcia Smith I would like to have the classified portions project book,

she said, oh, I'm sure they're not going to let us have that. I said, well, you have to ask them. I said, if you don't ask them, we're never going to get it. You were asking Congress? No, she was Congress. She was the Congressional Research Service in science technology. So she would contact the Defense Department as the official representative of Congress, you know, saying, look, we want to know this. We're doing research on this.

We want these documents. Danny Sheehan wants the blue Book. So she just said that, you know, that we who have been asked to do the research by President Carter, you know, want to get access to the classified portions of Project Blue Book. And she called me back a couple weeks later, and she was totally astonished that they'd agreed to do this. And she said, yeah, you just you have to go to the new Madison building. That was the new wing of the Library of Congress. They just completed building. What was the catch?

There wasn't one, as it turns out. Really? No. They said that I had the right to go over to do it. I had to bring two forms of identification, a photo official government identification. So I brought my passport, my DC driver's license, my bar association cards, you know, for both the Southern District of New York and for Washington DC. So I brought those with me. And then, you know, I went over to the Madison building on a Saturday morning and went up to the main door. And here are these two suits, these guys just both standing there on the opposite

sides of the door. Now, these are not OSI guys. I mean, I know OSI guys, but they look like it wasn't the Office of Special Investigations of the Air Force. These were SF guys. I mean, these are Special Forces guys. And so I went in to the hallway, and there wasn't anybody in the building. It was completely brand new, brand spanking new, not a soul in the building. And so I end up going down, walking down the hallway, down to the elevator, get in the elevator. And I just happened to think, I opened up my briefcase and took out a yellow pad, yellow legal pad, and just put it under my arm. And go down to the basement, the door opens, I see that I looked down the hallway on the left, and there's a light shining out of the room down there, two other suits down there waiting,

you know, so I go all the way down there. They say, you got to leave your briefcase here. You know, you can't take any notes. You can't record anything. You can't take any photographs of anything. So I said, okay, so in I go. Were you worried someone was going to whack you at any point? No, no, no. You're just fearless going down to this very secretive government hallway. No. Well, it was the Library of Congress. I mean, it was Madison Building.

So I go in, and here are these, there's like four cardboard fold-out tables, two on one side and two on the other side. The room is about maybe 20 feet wide, 15 feet deep. And there are these four card tables there. And there was this microfiche machine. It's really old timey, kind of tinny microfiche machine. Yeah. What's a microfiche? Microfiche is these, these little canisters that they have, uh, like little film canisters and they like film strips in them that have got documents.

They're photographs of documents and stuff. And so the, the, and there were these little shoebox, large shoebox size boxes with a little string tie on them, you know, the little figure eight string tie thing. And so, I wouldn't sit down, take off my jacket and sit down, lay down the yellow pad over there on the table. And I started to go through the boxes. And I would open up the little tin can canister and I'd take out the film strip and I'd go over to the microfiche machine and you'd put it on this little roll-like thing and you'd crank it. And so I started seeing all these documents. They were all top secret documents. They were all designated like this.

And I was saying, wait a second, this is going to take me forever. There must have been a hundred of these boxes. I said, you know, that I'll never, wait a second, this is going to take me forever. They're like about, there must have been a hundred of these boxes. I said, you know, that I'll never get through these things. I'm looking for photographs. So I looked through the whole first two, three canisters, and it's all just documents after documents after documents. So finally I get to the third or fourth of these boxes, you know, and I open up the canister and put it into the microfiche machine. I'm cranking along, and there are these photos. Bingo. You know, here it is the canister and put it into the microfiche machine. I'm cranked along and there are these photos That's her bingo. You know here it is. They show it was it was a crash retrieval

It was a UFO crash retrieval from operation. You couldn't tell it was but you could tell it It had crashed into us a field that was covered with snow So this isn't Roswell, you know because Roswell was in the desert in July in New Mexico. So it's got a snow-covered field. This UFO has skidded clearly across this field, has dug up this big trench through the dirt. It's all piled up, you know, in the snow. And it's stuck in the side of this embankment. It's kind of sticking out like a 45-degree angle stuck in the side of this bank.

You know, it's got a dome on the top of it it's like about you know 30 feet wide you know with a big dome on the top of it and it's stuck in the side of this uh this embankment right and uh and there are these people around the air force people you could tell they were in air force winter winter garb you know the big furry things around the hood and stuff. And they had cameras. They were taking photographs of this thing. Did it look like they were wearing, at that time, like more modern clothing? No, no. They had a movie camera.

One of the guys had a movie camera, and it had these two little canisters, these little round canisters like on the top of it. It looked like the late 1940s or something like that when these little movie cameras. So that was how it looked. It looked like late 40s or early 50s or something, you know, in that there were two of these guys that had the still photo cameras that were taking pictures of it. One other guy had a camera, but he wasn't doing anything.

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And so I could see it. And what I did is I noticed I there were three at least three photographs of this crash retrieval. And then I noticed in the like the second photograph, I could see along the bottom of the dome of the of the of the spacecraft, I could see these symbols that were along the bottom of the dome. And so I... Like a pyramid kind of thing? Well, no, they were this... Hieroglyphics?

No, no, they weren't hieroglyphics. They weren't Russian. They weren't Chinese. Something completely unique. And what I did is I looked at it and I said, wow, so look at this is extraordinary. So I took the microfiche focus and I took out the pad, and I opened up the yellow pad to the inside cardboard background, and I slid it in underneath the microfiche machine, and I focused it down so that it was exactly onto the back of the cardboard, and I traced them. I traced the symbols absolutely identical.

Is that legal? It was legal. I traced the symbols. Absolutely identical. Is that legal? It was legal. I'm a lawyer. I made a ruling, a unilateral ruling that I was going to trace them. So I traced them exactly. And they look like this. Yeah, let's see a drawing. That here's the—

Wait, hold on one sec let me just get this ready and then you go ahead i'm going to take a video on my phone so so here's the i'll turn it around you but so here's here here's here's the field you know and uh and you can see you can see the the in in the field you can see this big trench has been dug you know all the way down through the center of the field with the dirt all turned up around it like this. And here's the craft. The craft is like this, and it's like this. This whole classic flying saucer

just stuck into the side of this embankment like this, right? And it's skidded all the way across this field. And all along here, right along here about the bottom of the saucer, you could see these symbols. And they were like this. They were like... So it didn't really look like anything you'd ever seen. No. There was nothing.

I'd never seen anything like this, you know? And they were like this with these little dots and dashes and little like U-shaped things with dots like that. And it was all along the bottom here where you could see it. So I traced them absolutely in the exact order, because I said this is going to be really important to have them be absolutely verbatim what there's there in the exact order that they're in, because sometime we're going to be able to help figure out what this is saying, right? But I knew it was nothing. It wasn't Russian, it wasn't Chinese, it wasn't Hindu or Hindu, it wasn't hieroglyphics or anything. And so I copied these down, and then I closed the yellow pad, right, like this, and I put the microfiche back into the little canister, put it back in the box,

and tied it back up, put it in there, and got, put on my jacket and put the yellow pad back under my arm, you know, like this, you know, and just turned around and walked out. No one stopped you? Well, they were totally shocked. I mean, because I'd only been in there like an hour or something, over an hour, and I just walked right straight past the guys, you know, and they were both kind of just kind of, they were both standing with their back to the door, kind of guarding it, right? Not that there was anybody around, but you know, that was their job. So I just walked right on past them and I leaned down and I picked up my briefcase

that was standing there. So I picked it up and just kept on walking down the hall. All of a sudden, one of the guys goes, hey, hold it. Jan, hold it. What is that you got there? And I said, this is my briefcase. I just picked up my briefcase. It was there. He said, no, no, what do you got?

They both come over to me, and they kind of loom in over me. And one of the guys reaches out, and he yanks the yellow pad out from under my arm. He yanks it like this and opens up and flips through the yellow pages. There's nothing on them, of course. And then hands it back to me like that. Oh, he didn't look at the cardboard? No. And it was on the inside of the cardboard.

And so he just hands it back to me. And so I just put it back under my arm and picked up my briefcase and just kind of went on down the hall and got down to the elevator and was just hoping I was going to make it out of there. And I pushed the button. The elevator came. I went up, went out of the hall. The other two suits were gone. Do you still have that?

I brought it back to Jesuit headquarters. We put it in the Jesuit files. And then we brought the Jesuit files to California with us later on. And we put them in a big storage place in Riverside and there was a gigantic big storm, those whatever they call them, storms they have in California, that washed out part of the files. We didn't know what had been lost until later on, we've looked for that looked for the the yellow pad and we haven't found it so it was but it was in the Jesuit files

that we brought out there to California but you remember it yeah I mean that I just got the video of you drawn and we're gonna intersplice that in the video while you were explaining it that's really cool and what I can do see I don't know that that's the exact order they were in. So what I'll do someday is do the kind of holotropic breathing and trying to get back into a complete relaxed state to know exactly what the order of those things were. Holotropic breathing? Yeah. It's a process that Stanislav Grof developed that is, it's not hypnosis. It's a kind of a super relaxing breathing exercise that you engage in and can remember stuff. The kind of normal nerve structures of your body get relaxed and you can remember license plate numbers and you can remember different things that you wouldn't think that you can remember.

When did you realize you had a photographic memory? Did you know you had that as a young kid? No, it's just that I would be able to remember things pretty well and ended up doing that. I just memorized things. And most of the time I think very visually. So whenever I'm doing anything, I kind of register it all kind of like like a video in my mind uh and so that i can remember things pretty well i've had a lot of amazing people in here and i've had a lot of people in here who are light years smarter than i will ever be but i have a photographic memory myself and i've never had someone who thinks and looks at things in their mind as they're like translating it here talking like i do until i've talked to you so it's just it's

fascinating to hear you talk because i i don't really get exposed to that ton but you know when you're looking at this down in that basement it obviously it's a great story it's kind of funny too but you see you see a saucer crashed into the ground i mean this is still like you've read about this stuff you believe it exists and whatever but you now are looking at a picture where you're like holy shit that's not ours and that ain't china's that was for sure and i knew what do you what do you feel when you see that? Well, it's interesting. It didn't alter how I felt, because I was sure it was true. I mean, I was sure that we had these things, you know, because I knew about Roswell, you know, and I'd read all about Roswell, and I'd read the books about Roswell,

so I knew that we had them. And so that, and I was sure that in Project Blue Book, that they must have kept records of this stuff, because, you know, the government keeps records. So when I saw it, I just, but I did know that once I saw it and I copied the exact symbols down like that, that I'd better leave. So I just said, I packed it right up and I said, okay, that's it. I got it. And I just walked right out okay, that's it. I got it. And I just walked right out of there, and it turned out to work. And so I end up going back to Jesuit headquarters, right? And even though it was Saturday, Father Bill Davis was there because he knew that I was over looking at these files.

So I come back over to the office, and I show him what I've got. I said, look what I found. Here's exactly what I saw. And he's sitting at his desk, and he reaches down and slides open the drawer on his desk, and he hands me this little 8 1⁄2 by 11 mineral envelope with a little gold clasp on it thing, you know, hands it to me like that. So I unclasp it, and I open it, and I slide out an 8 1⁄2 by 11 black and white glossy photograph of a UFO. And he hands it to me like that.

And I said, where did you get this? And he said, I got it from my sister Dodie. And I said, where did Dodie get it? She said, from Mike. You know, her husband Mike is the chief air traffic controller at the Seattle airport. Oh, the Jesuits run everything. And he said that. And I said, well, where husband Mike is the chief air traffic controller at the Seattle airport. Oh, the Jesuits run everything. And he said that, and I said, well, where did Mike get it? He said, well, Mike's best friend is a commercial pilot that flies freight all around up around the Northwest.

And he took this photograph right out of the window of his plane. And he brings the little camera back to the drugstore back at those times when you had to do it way before you got and get it developed and he realized what he had and he didn't want to get in trouble the pilot is that when you had to put in the liquid and everything yeah well you have to take them to the drugstore at that time the only place they ever do you bring it to the drugstore or the pharmacy section you give it to them and then they would send it away to some lab and then they would get developed and you come back a week later or something and they would give you the little, that's how you used to do the photos, right? And so that when he got it back and he realized what he had, he said, look, I don't want to get in any trouble here. I don't want to lose my pilot's license. I'm not

going to report this to anybody, but I'm going to take it to my best friend, Mike, because he's the head air traffic controller at the Seattle airport. So he takes it and gives it to Mike, and Mike takes it and looks at it and says, look, I'm not going to get in trouble by reporting this to anybody, and he takes it and gives it to his wife Dodie, and he says, here, Dodie, take this and give it to your brother. He's a priest. And that's how... I don't know what to do with it.

And that's how we got it. And so he'd been sitting there with it in his desk all the time. So that was one of the reasons why he was so open to me doing all this stuff. Because he'd sat there with this in his desk. I don't know how long he had it. But the bottom line is he was sure that it was true too. So we then, Fr. Davis and I, went to the Washington Interreligious Staff Council and made a formal proposal to all 54 of the major office directors to set up a task force to get out ahead of this thing so that we could start figuring out the theological

implications of all of this, and we could all start accommodating what's getting ready to happen here. And we proposed that Judy Stone, I remember, was the head of the discussion we were having, and she said, well, are there any other ideas? And they never even put up for a vote, never even blinked, you know, just wouldn't do it. And so it was sometime later that I ended up being contacted by Dr. John Mack, who was the head of the Department of Clinical Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, and asked to become his attorney. Yeah, quickly. That was later.

I definitely want to talk about John Mack. That's going to be a very fascinating topic. That was later, though. Yeah. So the way I understand what you just said is that within the religious community, whatever you had found at that point died on the vine. Yeah, nothing. What about with Jimmy Carter though, who was the guy who started all this with, hey, let's go to Congress and figure it out. They sent a report to him, Marsha Smith was very narrow in her interpretation of

everything. And what she did is was focusing on the Drake equation. I think I mentioned this to you. She kept saying, well, here's the Drake equation, here's all the different variables, and here are all the ones we don't have answers to, you know, but here's how many stars there are in the galaxy, and here's what the probabilities are. And she ended up actually preparing a report that said, based upon all the analysis, that it was the judgment of the Science and Technology Division, that the kind of evidence and information that we had that indicated that there was in fact other life in our galaxy, and that there were probably from two to six, two to six at least, other highly intelligent, highly technologically developed, but non-human

species in our galaxy. An extraordinarily conservative reading, I might add, but very amazing because it was actually the congressional report actually concluded that this was the likelihood. Gave the thumbs up. Darrell Bock And she said that they were unable to really determine whether any of those civilizations had developed the kind of technology that would have been able to go faster than the speed of light. And I remembered I'd interviewed Carl Sagan about this, and Carl kept on saying, well, you know, I'm not denying that the probabilities are that there's other life there.

He said, but of course they can't get here because they can't go faster than the speed of light. You know, so it doesn't really make that much difference that we're never going to really be able to have contact with them. It's going to be too far away. Why was he so certain of that? Because he was just locked into the Newtonian-Cartesian worldview, that the speed of light was an absolute, that as you accelerate a body of matter toward the speed of light, that the mass becomes more and more infinite, and that therefore it would come to a stop, and you couldn't do it. And he was just locked into it. And I kept saying, I said, you got to try to understand, you know, about the billions of years of other advanced studies that they may have done on this end of their star systems.

I said, you know, we're knocking on the door of superluminal flight now. And he said, well, I don't think we can really do it. He was, he just was, he was like Degrassan Reed or whatever the guy is that's, who is this? Oh, Neil Degrassan. Yeah, yeah. You know, who's the horse's ass, you know, who just keeps on saying these really dumb things, you know? Anyway, so that's how he was. That's how Carl was.

You know, but later wrote this book with his wife, you know, Contact, you know, all about this stuff. So he's just sort of let it fly before he died you know but something happened but we don't know he never talked to me about it I love Carl yeah yeah watching videos saying was great I used to watch every one of the Cosmos stories you know when were you interviewing him oh I think probably with John Mack probably 1994 okay so. Okay, so way later. Yeah. So this report with the Drake equation that Marcia drafts up gets put through Congress and Jimmy Carter. Sent to Carter. And did Carter ever come back to you guys again asking for more?

I never heard anything more about it. Yeah, I mean, there's— I never heard anything more about it. Because he got knocked out of theirs in 1980. Right. Because he was only there for that one term, and he was really taken up pretty intensely with the hostage thing for the whole last year. Yeah. There's an urban legend I know you're familiar with that, you know... Someone briefed him and he cried. think is real but it's an interesting allegory if you will a symbol of the potential of if you and for people who don't know the story it goes that jimmy carter asked about the aliens

intelligence came in and briefed him basically said aliens are real all the world religions are actually just their own experiment to keep us preoccupied while we try to while they watch us down here and you know he was a religious obviously, so it was like saying religion wasn't real. And when they were leaving the room, he was sitting there weeping. Now, again, it's like an urban legend, but it's an interesting story to put a symbol on the ontological shock that could happen

if things aren't as we have always accepted them on a mass scale to be. Well, it would be a projection of somebody's worldview who kind of made it up, kind of a rumor saying, well, you know, if my worldview were correct, you know, this is what would happen. And so that's the best you can say about that because I've never had any confirmation of that,

you know, in that I've never talked with President Carter about it. Well, I mean, a guy who comes up in the middle of so many of these conversations he already has today, he did yesterday when we were talking on the last episode, and the whole family did, is H.W. Bush. Oh, yeah. You know, the guy's the head of the CIA, as you said, before he was vice president. And you also put it that he was effectively running that. That's interesting. But, like, you know know he also i know jesse

michaels pointed this out with you he when he was really old right before he died you know he had an off mic moment on stage where they had to wheel him off stage after he said like if you guys knew what i knew about ufos you'd all flip the fuck out or whatever yeah but like do you think like part of his whole mystique is this spy master you know keeping control of all the world's secrets and at the middle of all these conspiracies do you think ufos might have actually been like the biggest driver there for him not not the biggest driver it's clearly the the most comprehensive comprehensive secret that he would have known. I'm sure he was briefed in about this. It's the most thoroughgoing aspect of reality that has been kept secret, so that the geopolitical structures, the economic structures, the religious institutional structures, etc., are all crafted from a lower point upward toward this, but don't take into account this at all.

You know, so they're really coming up short. It's hard to even make an analogy to it about, you know, it's like, you know, rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic, you know, it's like disregarding a massive piece of information that General Bethune told me a story one time. General Bethune was the first full general in the United States Air Force commissioned. You know, it was the U.S. Army Air Force up until 1947. And then in 1947, they created the actual United States Air Force finally. And he was the first full commissioned general officer. And he was assigned to be the pilot of a plane that was going to be bringing a group of a dozen scientists up to Greenland.

Must have been 1948, 49, somewhere around there. And they had spotted some strange aircraft functioning up around Greenland, way up in the northern hemisphere. And he was assigned to be the pilot. There were two teams, a pilot, co-pilot, and navigator that would spell each other to fly this plane full of these scientists up to Greenland. And they were out over the North Atlantic about two o'clock in the morning. They'd been refueled already and they were flying, and the co-pilot looks out of the window, and he looks down, and they were over the North Atlantic. He said, wait a second,

what's that? What are those lights down there? It looks like a little town of some kind. He said, that can't be true. We're way out of the North Atlantic. They recomputed where their course was, and he said, no, we're out of it. Just as they realized that they couldn't be over in the little town, all of a sudden, these lights just kind of swooshed up in front of them. And it was this gigantic UFO. I said, this is Bethune is telling me the story, right? There's this huge UFO just right in front of their plane. And he thought they were going to hit it. And so he noses the plane over, it must have been like a B-29 or a B-49 or something. He just noses the plane over

immediately and went into this dive and then leveled off. And the UFO just backed off and just came back and was still hovering right in front of them like that. Defying laws of physics. And so he turned to the co-pilot and said, look, that was a really steep dive I just did.

And I need to go back and check on all of our passengers and make sure they're okay. He says, you take the control. So he gets up and he goes back into the passenger panel. And 11 of the scientists were all glued to the windows, stuck to the side of the thing, looking at this UFO that was sitting off on the port side right over there. And they were all looking at it. And there was this one guy standing in the aisle with his back turned to everybody, just arms folded, standing in the aisle. And General Bethune went over to him and said, are you okay? Are you okay? He said, yes, I'm fine. And Bethune said, did you see that out there? You see what's out there? And the scientist guy turned to him and said, I'm a scientist.

I don't believe in those things. I'm not looking. But they told me that story. And that's sort of the way they are. You know, the people are just saying, I don't want to believe in that. It doesn't fit into my worldview. You know, I'm not looking. Pete And that's religious. It is. Well, it's a religion really, to back up a little bit, you know, the evolution of the intellect in Homo sapien, which we're so proud about, distinguishes us. The Latin root of the intellect is intellectus, which is the ability to distinguish the difference between. That's what it means, our ability to distinguish the difference between that we can make linear judgments and make relative judgments of how things are far away and can compute

distances, et cetera, mathematically. Religion, the Latin root of religion is religare, which is to relink. And intellectus is the ability for us to distinguish ourselves separate and apart from everything else in the universe. And that we can then start to compute how our relationship is to everything so we can control it and manipulate it, right? Relegare is to relink us back together so that our consciousness that appears to be separate and apart from everything else can link back in to the unified field of every of all consciousness in the universe. And so, that religion is something much more profound, actually, than just a series of social or cultural beliefs. But the problem is, is that the latter have come to be substituted for true religion. You know, they call it civil religion, civic religion.

You know, our country, right or wrong, it's Christian nationalism, you know, that our country has been endowed by the god of Jacob, Abraham and Jacob, and we're the preeminent country of the world, and we're destined to, you know, all that stuff. That's civil religion, they call that. It's not the same thing as metaphysical consciousness, you know? It's a different thing. It's its own thing, you know, and there's value, you know, when you figure that, you know, that the...

Of course, all the Christian churches, of course, began as the Catholic Church before the Protestant Reformation. That's right. Right? And so in the Catholic Church, what they did is they just decided that they were going to keep all this stuff secret. All the capabilities of the human body, the kind of extra capacities that we have to levitate and to potentially bilocate. When did they decide that? Council of Nicaea?? Council of Nicaea? The Council of Nicaea, for example, struck down reincarnation.

That was one of the major decisions they made, is to outlaw belief in reincarnation. But there were a lot of other belief systems that they excluded. And what they were basically telling people is that, look, the capabilities that were displayed by Jesus of Nazareth, and they wouldn't talk about Lao Tzu or the Buddha or any of the other adepts, but they say, but Jesus, our guy, you know, is able to transpose, you know, water into wine. He's able to levitate. He's able to walk on water. He's able to heal people with his hands, you know. But, well, these are all Siddha. I mean, these are fairly well-known Siddha in the ancient Eastern traditions, you know, and here's this guy that can do this in Western civilization. And what the Catholic Church is doing, it said, look,

let's be clear, this is the only guy that can do this, right? Okay, he's our guy, and he can do this. You can't do this, okay? We're the Church. We're going to intervene between you and the Godhead, and we're going to communicate to you. We're going to tell you what's going on here, okay? But you do what we tell you to do. You be good citizens, you obey Caesar, and there was the Constantinian Compromise that the Catholic Church entered into. And so, the Catholic Church became an organ of the state, you know, and that they hid a lot of these secrets about our human family and our capacities that are more exposed in the Eastern traditions, in the Hinduism and Buddhism, etc. Hinduism knows that there's something like 256 different levels of consciousness. You know. There's all kinds of

scientific writing about this in the ancient languages. So that this, what they've done is they've created, the Catholic Church created a whole set of mythologies that when 99% of all of the people at that time were completely illiterate. You know, I mean, they didn't travel more than 50 miles away from the point where they were born. Yeah, they had an ivory tower around information. Didn't know anything. And so the scholarship and knowledge and reading and stuff're all confined to the people in the church, in the priests, in the

monasteries, etc. Okay? And so that whole hiding of the capabilities of our human family that have to do with real religare, real religion, to relinking ourself back into unity with the consciousness of the universe. These are all things that need to also be disclosed. And that's what's going to happen here with the disclosure in general, that it's not only going to be the government of the United States that's going to have to disclose the secret information that's been concealing. The Catholic Church is going to have to disclose the secret information that's been concealing. The Catholic Church is going to have to reveal this information. And it's going to be quite disruptive over lots of people's beliefs, you know, because

they've been given such absolute terms that they have to abide by these rules and regulations. And they're going to see that they're relative rules and regulations. But this is something the Church is going to have to come to grips with, you know, and that they've issued an informal statement back in November, November 10th of 2007, where they issued a public statement saying that in light of the discovery of more and more of these new exoplanets, because of the launching of the space-borne telescopes, you know, we had the Hubble, we had the Kepler, we had the, now we got the James Webb telescope, said in light of the

discovery of more and more of these new exoplanets, it's now become clear that much sooner than had been previously anticipated, that we're going to be discovering life elsewhere in the universe. Than previously anticipated. That's exactly right. That's exactly what the statement says, issued by Father José Gabriel Funes. Meaning we were already anticipating it. That's exactly right.

It said that, you know, that in light of the discovery of more and more of these new exoplanets, much earlier than we had previously anticipated, we're going to be discovering life elsewhere in the universe. Therefore, the time has arrived for an extraordinarily important conversation about the profound philosophical and theological questions that are posed to our human family by the discovery of life elsewhere in the universe. Now upon the issuance of that statement by Jose Gabriel Funes, who was the director of the Pontifical Observatory at the time, Jesuit priest, I contacted him and flew to see him.

In 07. That's right. And I said, look it, we need to talk. Look it. We need to talk about this now. And he said, look, let's be really clear, he said, we're not talking here about the discovery of some single-cell life form under some frozen sea on some distant moon in some far-off galaxy.

He said, we're talking about another highly intelligent, highly technologically developed, but distinctly non-human species right here in our own Milky Way galaxy. That's what he said. And so I've known since that time that the time has arrived, you know, for this serious conversation among the laity. And I've been trying to figure out how to get Francis, you know, I stay over at Doma when I'm in Rome where Francis lives. He doesn't live

in the Vatican. He won't live there for safety's sake. Wait, he doesn't? No. No, he does not. He lives in the Doma, which is a separate part. Can we look that up? It's on the Vatican grounds, but it's not. Oh, so it's on the grounds. It's not in the papal apartments. I used to live a quarter mile from the Vatican.

Yeah. Right there. Yeah. So, you know. And so that's where the Doma. And so the bottom line is that I've been there, I've talked with Johan Ickes, who's the head of the archives, to try to talk him into letting us

see these documents. Again, they still have not agreed to do that. But the bottom line is the church knows that it has to start mobilizing right away to start preparing people for what's getting ready to come. And that's happening now. There's huge activities going on now. Lots more. They deployed an entire carrier group down off...

A carrier group? Yeah, yeah. The Nimitz carrier group, they deployed it down off the Baja to monitor the site down there. There's an underwater base for sure, right off Guadalupe Island down underneath the sea. Can we Google Guadalupe Island so we can see that? Yeah, there's a specific spot. You said this has to do with the church? No.

What I'm saying is that there are things happening now. There's such rapid developments that are going on now that they now know that there is this location right off Guadalupe Island between there and Baja. That island right there on the screen which one is is unless you just lost this is Guadalupe Island yeah down there's Baja one of those it's which which one is Guadalupe the little thing right there yeah that yeah that would be it okay so right is that guadalupe island

yeah that's the one right right off right off that island right there beneath the sea that they deployed the entire uh the nimitz uh carrier that's david fravers yep right and and they monitored over a hundred sightings of ufos coming and going down into the ocean right there and going down to the bottom of the ocean, and they were monitored by the submarines. So transmedium. That's right, monitored by the submarines underneath the water coming and going so that there's virtually certainly a base there.

And there's another base outside of Sedona, Arizona, over by, there's a place called Secret Mountain, Secret Mountain Wilderness over there that's just a totally desolate area. There's a base there where the craft are. And so there's a number of them high in the mountains in remote areas of the planet, and that they're here now, and that they're extraordinarily distressed, you can tell, about the state of affairs right now. Of humanity.

Yes. Do you think that some of them possibly could be something else? And to be specific on that, I'm not saying all of them, but that some of them could be some form of advanced close to this island where we have carrier ships and stuff like that, on something like that more than like, say, a Sedona, Arizona example, I more think something like this at Guadalupe could involve weaponry as opposed to actual alien UFOs, if you will. You think that's possible? No, no. Well, you should phrase it that way, is it conceivable? There's a lot of things that are conceivable. But that's not how you really

conduct an investigation. What you do is you work from probability projections, and you work out from that. It's quite clear to me that that facility off Guadalupe is in fact a base, an extraterrestrial base.

Because the way that the carrier group has been acting, to dig in and monitor that thing and monitor it under the water and keep track of it and keep records of what's going on, that would not be being done with one of our own weapons systems. But the one in Sedona, on the other hand, there's US military personnel all around that place. And there's helicopters. There are Apache helicopters and others that are disposed, and they accompany the coming and going of these big triangles that fly in and out of there. And there are witnesses that we've interviewed that say that there are tall whites or tall grays there, along with what they call the mantis people.

Mantis people. Mantis people. The mantis people, huge, seven feet tall, extraordinarily skinny, thin, kind of bowed over people. They remind people of praying mantises, this particular species. Like Sean Bradley? That... Not that bad. No. That some people refer to these people as insectoids.

Insectoids. Yeah, it's kind of a pejorative of them, but they remind people of praying mantises. And whenever they're seen with tall greys or the short greys or the reptilians at all, they seem to be in charge. They're constantly giving telepathic commands of how do they deploy, etc. And... What have they been seeing? They've been seen there in that Sedona base, for example. Yeah, but when? Let's see here. We're in 2024 now. It was probably 2018 or so

2017 that Melinda Leslie is one of the witnesses who have seen them who she she's a person who's an abductee That was taken into custody By them and in my labs Operation my labs operate. It was a mill. It was a military a military A MyLabs operation. personnel to mimic abduction, UFO abductions. Okay, so this was a mimicked abduction that she was abducted for. That's right. And she was taken to that base. What base?

The base outside of Sedona, the one by the secret mountain wilderness. That's not S4. No, no, no, no. That's in Nevada. That's S4 in Area 51. S4 is about 11 miles away from Area 51, but they're both in Nevada. So she's taken into space by Sedona. And what they're doing is they were doing experiments trying to discern people's psychic abilities.

There's a major program that's going on in the United States military because their pilots were unable to fly these things because they're flown by telepathy. The craft are flown by telepathy. And the pilots, the kind of people that are trained to be pilots, are not telepathically trained. They're extraordinarily linear, very intense, scientific, logical, positivist type folks, in that they aren't able to communicate with the craft. And so that there's been a whole program to try to recruit people,

to try to find out people who are psychic, to see whether they can actually be involved in helping to run these craft because the craft are run psychically by the by the ets and so unless they have et people working with them which it appears they do at the sedona base uh that the the the et people are the ones that actually pilot the craft, the large craft, but that they're given U.S. military escorts with F-18s and the major helicopter gunships actually protect them when they're flying some of these. Whoa. Yeah. Okay, so she allegedly saw them in 2017, 2018, when she was taken to this base,

and they were down there, and they were being interrogated. They were being experimented with. They were asked to do these experiments, psychic experiments. Yes, yes. Yeah, that's what they were doing. And there's lots of information about that now, about this weird program that they've got going,

of trying to recruit people that they think are psychic because they're they're normally trained pilots are not able to fly these things it's almost like a men in black kind of thing like like when we see in the movie where they have the where they have the base and they go in there and all the aliens are chilling and stuff that's effectively a similar parallel of what's being described there's there's there's lots of weird science fiction movies all over the place uh picking up little pieces of this stuff that what what we do is that uh i i tend not to go to those kind of movies but because i'm uh i'm kind of staying focused on you're too wired in danny right i'm trying to stay focused on what it is I know.

That's why it's easy to remember these things. Yeah. Because I don't, you know, garble it up with a lot of other stuff. Yeah. You know, I don't read fiction, you know, about these things. I just refuse to do that. I refuse to go to movies that have bad galactic politics, you know, that are... Bad galactic politics.

That are into, you know, bumming people out about, you know, making up terrible things about the ETs and stuff like the Heretic Ichu and all that stuff. You know, you don't want to poison your mind with that. I don't go to vampire movies or werewolf movies or disembowelment movies. I stay away from those kind of things. You're not a Twilight guy? No. So there's lots of information about this now. And there's this extremely interesting phenomenon that has started, as you know, that back in 2017, you know, December 17th of 2017, you have the front page story in the New York Times that Leslie Keen and Blumenthal wrote, exposing the existence of a top secret program inside the Pentagon engaged in professionally investigating the UFO phenomenon. Okay.

And they reveal that. And they had some things a little missed in that report. Like what? Like, for example, that they thought AATIP, the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program, was a lot more formalized than it really was. But Lou goes at some length here. Your client, Lou Elizondo. Yeah, Lou Elizondo has written this book. For the last three weeks,

it's been the number one bestseller on the New York Times bestseller list. That he goes into detail now about how AATIP kind of evolved out of AUSAP, the Advanced Weapons Special Access Program, and how he was doing this kind of informally, et cetera. So he's clarified all that in his book. Yeah. We had him in here for episode 237. It was a very fascinating conversation. I think we're trying to do another one in November, because there was a lot still on the bone there.

One of the things that I think, and I want Lou to talk about this in November, just so he can kind of once and for all make it clear. But one of the things I think that's confused people in the past with how he's explained it because again there was a lot of moving parts here yes is that he said things like oh i wasn't a part of awesap because it seems like he's making the assumption that awesap when he was first being read into this stuff in 07 or 08, OSAP was transferring into what became ATIP. Is that, now, the timeline shows that maybe that didn't happen until 2012, 2013, 2014, and then some people on the more skeptic side argue that, like, you can't even find data in the FOIAs that ATIP was real. When did ATIP, when was that born, as far as you know? Maybe that's the best place to start. Well, I would actually say that it wasn't born. It was conceived

of that, you can read the stuff in the book, the details of what he talks about. But what happened is that there was an original program that was the Advanced Weapons Special Access Program. The funding, the original $22 million that Harry Reid got authorized, Senator Reid got authorized. That was a program that was designed to do two things, actually. One was to try to figure out how to back engineer the craft that had been recovered. It was a more public, even though top secret, it was a more well-known program inside the Pentagon than the actual deep program where they were involved in knocking down UFOs and actively, aggressively going after them. Knocking down. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Can you elaborate on that, please?

Yeah, yeah. This is not just a passive program where they just, you know, wait and see if there happens to be a crash of a UFO. We're not talking about—they've admitted, quote, crash retrieval organizations. Yes. But, you know, they were actually knocking them down. They've developed technology to knock some of these things down. And they've engaged in – Like EMPs and stuff? Yes.

It's an extraordinarily powerful technology, we'll call it, that is capable of disabling the craft and forcing them down. Isn't that a little, like, this is where I get confused and it gets beyond what my brain can really create because it gets to questions that are beyond the known laws of physics that we have. But like you talked earlier about the Drake equation and the conservative estimate of there being two to six potential civilizations, and you use numbers like potentially eight billion years ahead or something like that. So when I hear things like that, I do wonder how a civilization, let's say they're even a billion years ahead, not eight,

how they could possibly be stopped by some caveman or less than that technology like EMPs, I'm assuming based on our timeline, that we have. Well, it's an extraordinarily sophisticated technology that's been developed to take them down. Now, that doesn't mean that they haven't compensated for that. But there were a number of the vehicles that were recovered, intact vehicles that were forced down by this technology. And so what I'm saying is that this wasn't a passive, just go find one that happens to have accidentally crashed and hit by lightning or something. It's an act of intergalactic war.

Yeah, well, that's exactly right. That's one of the major concerns about this, that this would be considered a potential act of war against them. Because our military people were considering it an act of war for them to come and shut off our nuclear missiles. Yes. And so that they viewed that as a kinetic act, as they referred to it, against our forces. And so they engaged in kinetic actions against the craft and that they've brought some of them down. And so you're saying that this program that was in charge of that was far deeper and more classified than, say, OSAP? OSAP was what Senator Reid in a way did. They authorized the funding for a $22 million program to kind of investigate it at kind of another level strictly for trying to figure out if there was any kind of access they could

get to the technology for weapons development. It was an advanced weapons program. But the fact of the matter was there was a much deeper weapons program, a classified weapons program that involved the Connecticut activity going after the craft in the attempt to back-engineer them. Do we know how far back that went and or who was in charge of it? We know... I don't know the exact date yet as to when this new technology got developed, the ability to force them down

and to recover the intact craft. We know that it exists, and we know that it was formulated. We know that there was another highly sophisticated program that was developed by the Central Intelligence Agency that was called the Golden Domes program. That was a technology that was actually able to discern the craft when they were still masked. They were still cloaked. And the CIA developed a technology that was able to locate them.

Oh, wow. And then there was an entire center that the Central Intelligence Agency had controlling that. When was this? This has been going on for over 10 years. You know, now.

Pre-OSAP or now? This was pre-OSAP. Okay, so that would mean maybe like late 90s, something like that starts. craft, you know, is a great source of concern. And it's part of what they're so concerned about, about, quote, catastrophic disclosure. Being able to reveal that the national security state apparatus has taken it upon itself to engage in activities that could be perceived as an act of war against this civilization, you know, in making their own mind that, well, them having shut off our nuclear missiles was an act of war, and so therefore they thought that they were entitled to retaliate against them.

You know, that whole kind of activity going on outside of the control of Congress, you know, is contrary to the Constitution of the United States. You know, the United States government and Congress is supposed to be in charge of making decisions as to whether we're going to engage in acts of war toward a foreign power. You know, they've got all kinds of efforts that have been made by the Covert Operations Division of the CIA, the 5412 Committee of the National Security Council, to take it upon themselves to take initiatives under the covert operations and the Intelligence Act that they've done.

But the bottom line is that in my judgment, this is not constitutional, that they are committing perjury, they're lying to the United States Congress, they're conducting military operations against the craft that would be considered an act of war. And so therefore, there is some strong reason to believe that they've engaged in some sort of communication, which is designed to establish some sort of set of protocols pursuant to which they engage with each other. That the craft are clearly engaging in activities that are viewed as surveillance, that they're surveilling our nuclear aircraft carriers, our nuclear submarines. They're monitoring places where our nuclear weapons are stored. They're monitoring our private nuclear facilities,

energy facilities, et cetera. So they're engaged in a very effective surveillance system about our nuclear capacities. Now, national security state people immediately experience that as dangerous to have some sort of foreign power surveilling our top secret facilities, et cetera. Whereas other people on the planet view our activities in developing those major weapons and threatening to use them, in deploying them and targeting other people with them as being acts of aggression, you know, which they are. And that, you know, that we know from the now from the 1992 United States Defense Department policy planning guidance documents, for example, we know that, in fact, that the United States national security state apparatus is engaged in an affirmative, aggressive program of attempting to establish full-spectrum military dominance over the planet.

And they've acknowledged it. Wow. This was in April of 1992, after Gorbachev dissolved the Soviet Union and secured the agreement. H.W. in office? attempting to recruit any of the former republics of the Soviet Union that would be released from the Soviet Socialist Republic to try to refrain from engaging them in recruiting them into NATO or any of the Eastern Bloc countries. That was the agreement. And as soon as Bush Jr. came in, Cheney came in. Thank you. You know, they justified that and started going after them and starting to recruit them into NATO. You know, that's what's generated the present situation that we're in now. Okay?

So the bottom line is that immediately after Gorbachev signed the release of all of the socialist republics and dissolved the Soviet Union voluntarily pursuant to that agreement, what happened is that Dick Cheney, who was the Secretary of Defense at that time under the Bush senior administration, and Paul Wolfowitz, and Scooter Libby, and Doug Fife. All the neocons. And the guys that were in the Defense Department under Dick Cheney gathered together and they prepared the 1992 United States Defense Department

policy planning guidance document. In it, they actually proposed that they push back against the inclination to reduce the military budget now, now that the Soviet Union had voluntarily stepped back from the Cold War. And they said, we can't allow this to happen. We have to increase the military budget so that we can establish full-spectrum military dominance over the planet. And that the purpose of that is to secure and maintain our continued privileged access to the strategic raw materials that are needed by the members of this new Northern Industrial Alliance that we're going to be forming. There's lots of details about that. A lot of people don't know

about it, but they exist now. And that whole program that has been undertaken by Dick Cheney and his cohorts has been operational now for some time. And the problem is that once they mounted that under the W. Bush administration in defiance of the previous agreements that have been made, what's happened is it's been quite clear that we have been engaged in an activity that is ever increasing the possibilities of nuclear confrontation with both China and with Russia. And so you see a major increase in the activities of the UFO vehicles, intensely monitoring our nuclear capacities, the deployment of our nuclear forces, trying to determine, you know, how aggressively we're going to be utilizing our nuclear weapons capacities. Since 92? Since 92. That's exactly right.

Because my other question was going to be to tie this back together, I guess, in a way, is these programs you're talking about with crash retrieval and – god, there was so much in there, you said. I'm going to miss some of it. But it's all – when we talk about it, we tend to talk about it from an American-centric view. Yeah, right. Right? But other countries, world powers especially, like China, like Russia, they have their own programs that look at this stuff. Sure. Is there evidence to show that there is some sort of intelligence sharing on that going on or that has been going on over the past several decades?

Yeah, the answer to that is negative. It's not. That the adversarial attitude that has been adopted primarily by Cheney and the neocons from the W. Bush administration on down and was then later endorsed by Obama and Hillary Clinton as the Secretary of State. Birds of the same flock. That they maintain that same kind of momentum once it was going. And what's happened now is that that's set up such antagonism with Russia and with China that there's very little cooperation that's going on in this area. And so the United States, so the question that arises is what is it that's motivating this new movement that's been happening since 2017? What is it that's motivating this new movement that's been happening since 2017?

What is it that's motivating Lou and Chris Mellon and Dave Grush and Carl Nell and the other folks that are coming forward and leaning in on drafting this particular bill? This is the bill that got passed by the United States Senate in 2023. This is the 64-page bill that has set up an entire regime to undertake a controlled disclosure of some significant portions of the information that are known about the UFO phenomenon. Controlled disclosure? Controlled disclosure, That's what this is. This is the UAP Controlled Disclosure Act. This is what they're planning to do. They have a seven-year period that over during which they want to reveal some portions of the information and conceal information that they think would constitute a catastrophic disclosure. That's what they're engaged in.

All right. Before we get ahead of ourselves on this, a couple things. Number one, another guy I'd like to get in here is Chris Mellon. I'd like to talk with him and judge him on his own merits. And I think sometimes, and I'm guilty of it too, we associate people and automatically make assumptions about who they are. That said, as a guy i'm sitting across from you who is very well aware as you've demonstrated of say some of the

gilded age families and so on down that's happened where certain powerful factions tend to have their hands on the levers of everything that runs our government. Yeah. When you see a guy like Chris Mellon, who's literally a member of the Mellon family. Yeah, sure. And I forget, it was like his grandfather, I don't even remember, but like- His great-grandfather. Right, great-grandfather was- The Mellon Bank. Yes, but also was involved in the creation of the CIA, Warner, or something like that.

Jesse Michaels knows that information, not me, so go listen to him on that. Yeah. warner or something like that jesse michaels knows that information on me so go listen to him on that yeah but like isn't it interesting that he's the guy who's walking the papers out of the pentagon and going to the new york times with this like is there a little bit of a tingle that goes off there like why him of everybody so no no it's a it's a chris is an extraordinarily interesting guy, that's for sure. And I think he knows more about the deeper aspects of this program than most of the other people. And I do believe that probably there is some correlation between his family background and him being able to be trusted with more of that information. If you go back into the period of Brown Brothers Harriman and the robber barons that the Mellons were part of and the Rockefellers and the Harriman family, you know, that elite financial industrial set of families that actually formed Brown Brothers Harriman, kind of a common investment operation

where they choreographed things that we talked about the last time, of actually choreographing the creation of the Third Reich and setting up the Third Reich and instigating the attempt to, on the part of Germany, to establish full dominion over Europe, for example, as the bulwark against Bolshevism. Those are extraordinarily real phenomena. It's quite clear that it's not Brown Brothers Harriman now that have continued that linkage, that the power that once resided in Brown Brothers Harriman when Alan Dulles was the legal counsel for them and George Herbert Walker was the CEO, or Prescott Bush then was the later CEO, that there was a lot more rigid control over that elite group. But the progeny of that are now more spread out.

But there's still a, you know, I just got back from Yale earlier today, you know, and it's embarrassing, you know, walking around Yale looking at all the kind of preppy, you know, well-washed, polished, you know, aristocratic young kids that are there at Yale still. You know, they're still there, you know, and Skull and Bones is still there, you know, and so there's a lot of that stuff. They're resisting letting go of the kind of covert power that they've had, those wealthy families. Chris Mellon is an extraordinarily sophisticated guy, very subtle guy, is extremely knowledgeable about what it is that's going on. And he would be among the more valuable interviews to actually have him being candid about what it is he knows, which he won't be. He won't be revealing as much information as some of the other people would. Why is that?

Because he knows more than they know. And he's closer to the people that are the legacy group people. This is not pejorative about him. This is, in a certain sense, a compliment. It's factual. That he is a more sophisticated person than a lot of the other people that are involved here. So they're hammering down. I mean, Lou is a tough guy, as you know. I mean, Lou is the armadillo.

Yes. He's the tough guy here, and he's pushing forward on this. He's smart and articulate and a lot more sophisticated than the people in the 2506 Brigade that he hails from. But he is still a, and he will admit that he's more of a blunt instrument involved in this. You get other people like Carl Nell, for example. Colonel Carl Nell is kind of another step into the more sophisticated realm. I mean, he was in charge. He was a major person in the United States Army that was called in to kind of stand up entire units and companies inside the military to perform more effective missions. You know, he was the one that was anticipated to be the original head of Arrow when they were talking about setting that up.

So he's a very sophisticated person, extraordinarily intelligent, and is in a certain sense more subtle in many ways than Lou is. Lou will admit that. And Chris Mellon is more sophisticated than any of them. He's the most sophisticated of all of them. So he is the person who is probably the most responsible for trying to choreograph this operation in a way that can become effective. And so he's a person of some really substantial substance that one would want to talk with to determine what he's decided at any given point to reveal. All right. I want to put a pin in the ufo crash retrieval program within the pentagon because i do want to come back to that but i want to stay with this for

a second yeah because what that when you use the words i believe it was controlled disclosures right this is where it gets you know you you kind of have a philosophical debate going on. Because, what do I mean by that? I want to know everything, right? I'm a human being. I'd love to know whatever intelligence we have about whatever the hell is out there. Well, you think you do.

I think I do. You think you want to. That's because you don't know. I don't know what it could, right, right, right. You don't know what it is you don't want to. That's because you don't know. I don't know what it could... Right, right, right. You don't know what it is you don't want to know. Right. But then I'm saying because I don't know that, I say right now I want to know everything.

Sure. And everyone else out there listening, I'm sure, says something similar. Yep. That to the point you just made right there, if there are things that are literally provable behind the scenes that like humanity as a whole couldn't handle, which again, this is now intelligence communities making this determination, which is a slippery slope. Oh, yeah. It's like, you know. I don't think they're entitled to do that. You're right. But I could then see a scenario where all these guys, everyone you just named, anyone who's associated with the government, that's been what their job is. They do have a controlled disclosure where they come out and people could use the word psyop here and it's fair.

But that might be a little strong for what I'm saying. And they basically tell you some things that are true to obfuscate some things that you don't, they don't want to tell you about. Now, you represent Lou Elizondo. So I understand there's some things you can't say here, attorney-client privilege, but could you see a scenario where that's very real? Yeah, I don't think that's the right verb, the obfuscate. You know, if I possess 100 units of information about a particular subject and I reveal 85% of them to you, it's not obfuscating. It's just a limited disclosure. Yes. disclosure yes when you obfuscate something is when you you release the 85 of the information and then you lie about the other 15 but isn't that semantics that's effectively what they'd be doing if they didn't tell us about if they said wow look over here at this shiny thing don't look

over there well that's kind of lying no well it's a one just needs to be careful in this particular area. It's not kind of like lying sort of. That's dangerous territory. What's going on here is an extraordinarily sophisticated process pursuant to which there are people inside the national – the national security state is a bad idea to begin with. You know, when you have a national security state, they're locked into a second paradigm worldview, a dialectical worldview that there's good guys and bad guys. And, you know, and we're authorized to do really horrible things. You know, I told you about Henry Kissinger, you know, in his introductory lecture every year in Gov 182, you know, about the, you know, if you don't believe

that our country has the right to lie, cheat, steal, and even kill, you know, on behalf of the narrow self-interest of our own nation state versus others, then you shouldn't remain in my course, you know, that kind of thing. You know, that mindset in and of itself is intrinsically evil. You know, it sets up an intrinsic dialectic between, you know, portions of the human family that is inevitably going to generate conflict. Okay? And the problem is that you have people that are raised inside that culture in the military and in the intelligence community, etc. And they're trained not only to conceal certain information. They're actually trained to actively attempt to deceive others.

Yes. Okay? And the problem is that they developed those skill sets vis-a-vis some alternative nation states whom they viewed to be adversaries in their quest to establish

full-spectrum dominance over the planet. Yeah. You know? And the problem is that they turn those skills against the American people. And they turn those skills

against Congress. That's right. And that's unconstitutional for them to engage in that type of activity, and that the creation of the nation state, the national security state in and of itself, creates that intrinsic danger, and it's come to manifest itself over the period of the last, you know, 79 years or so since they created it. Okay, in 77 years now, since December of 1947. Okay, so that's what we're encountering right now is the inevitable repercussions of a national security state. So you have an entire community of people who believe that they're not only entitled to,

but they're obliged to somehow actively deceive the American public, you know, and to deceive Congress. You know, this is violative of fundamental premises of our Constitution, and that we have to undo this. We have to undo this in the context of this particular subject. And so we want to undo this in the context of this particular subject. And so we want to be careful during the process that we're doing this of being clear about what we're

accusing people of doing. That the people here that we're talking about, with Lou and the rest of the people that are involved in this endeavor to establish a UAP controlled disclosure campaign plan. It is clear that they're at one and the same time attempting to reveal some things and intending to have other things not revealed. Yes. Okay? And what do you think the highlights of those things not revealed are that they don't want to reveal? Like what kinds of things on a high level?

Well, some of the things are more obvious and are less troublesome because they're so obvious. For example, they'll say, well, first of all, we have to make sure that whatever the disclosure process is, that it does not alter the present elements of power on the planet. Well, now you can either agree or disagree with that. I tend to disagree with that. I don't think the elements of power on the planet right now are doing that well, bringing us to the brink of thermonuclear war. But they would argue that, well, that's sprinkmanship. You get to the edge of nuclear war, and then you end up, you know, getting, you know, you just get to dissolve the Soviet Union. You know, you get to

get access to the, at least to the major breadbasket areas of the Ukraine, even if you lose the Crimea, you know, the warm water port to Russia. And they engage in this kind of conduct all the time, you know, and they're threatening the potential thermonuclear destruction of the entire planet as the axis on which they ply that particular set of skills. I think that's a really bad idea. I agree. I think that our human family ought to step back from that. And then they say, well, yeah, it's fine for you to say that, because you're not charged with responsibility, these heavy responsibilities

we have, they say. And what I've discovered in my 50 years of practice is what I've discovered is that there's an awful lot of people inside that national security state who have become so disenchanted with what it is that they've been asked to do in order to effectuate this kind of dialectical confrontation that they are ostensibly engaged in, which was at one time, at least in their own minds, attempting to stop authoritarian governments from the Soviet Union from taking over the world. But when they in fact found themselves supporting authoritarian governments and torturing people and killing people and assassinating people, et cetera, after a period of time, they began

to suspect there's something wrong here. That they're actually doing the very things that they were taught as young people were the very things you're trying to stop from doing in the world. And so that we've been able to establish communication with some of these people, and they're willing to come forward and say, here, let me share some of the information that you need in order to try to reform the national security state apparatus. Okay? Yes. That my opinion is the national security state apparatus has to be more than reformed. It has to be overcome. Overcome?

It has to be dissolved. It has to be dissolved in the Soviet Union. It has to be dissolved in China. It has to be dissolved. How realistic is that, though, Danny? Well, how realistic is destruction of the whole planet? It's not a really good idea. I think that's more, unfortunately, I think that's more realistic than getting all these prisoner dilemma, think that one of the dynamics that has to play into this is increasing the level of consciousness of the people, okay, and exercising some of the powers that we still have in a democracy, okay?

The avenues are there for us to do this. You know, it's an extraordinarily difficult challenge. I'll, I'll agree to that, but we have to know what our ultimate mission is. Our ultimate mission is to dissolve away the structural sources of injustice, you know, inside both Western and Eastern civilizations right now, because the, the, the elite that have risen to power in both hemispheres are threatening thermonuclear destruction of the planet, okay? They're engaging in the maintenance of control over the petroleum industry and polluting the planet and polluting the oceans and threatening the life-generating capacity of our planet, okay? They are on the very brink of

actually instigating a potential intervention on the part of an extraterrestrial civilization in order to preserve the life-generating capacity of our planet. That's what's happening right now, you know, and that's what's panicking them, you know? So all of a sudden they've come forward saying, wait a second, you know, that we think that we're on the brink of some potential intervention here, and if they intervene in an aggressive enough way to shut off our nuclear weapons capacities in both East and West, that's going to reveal their presence. And we aren't ready yet. We haven't really taken the steps that are necessary to prepare our people for the intervention of an extraterrestrial civilization like this.

And so you see this thing happening right now, kind of this mysterious process going on of some element inside the national security state coming forward, you know, with the either pretense or at least posture of being good guys all of a sudden. That's right. Oh, they've seen the light and that they think, you know, I'm really feeling bad about how secretive we've been. Let's tell everyone. The excesses, you know, and so, but let's make it clear, we're not here talking

about revealing everything. We're talking about revealing some things, and there's some other things that we just really can't reveal, but we can't tell you what those are, okay, under any circumstances, we can't tell you what they are. But one of the things that they'll lead right with is, of course, whatever the changes are that are going to be flowing from disclosure, we can't have them alter the elements of power on the planet right now. That's number one, okay? That would be, in their view, catastrophic. Primarily because they view themselves as being assigned responsibility for keeping those people in power. Right. That's how they view their military covert mission.

Okay? They want to sustain what they have. That's right. And so there are other things. That was an obvious one, right? Of course. Then they have others like that. Well, you know, there may be some things that have been done on behalf of maintaining the secrets down through the decades.

You know, they may have engaged in untoward activity toward private citizens. They would never do that, Danny. And that would be catastrophic to reveal some of that. Because if you revealed that, then the confidence of the people in that elite would be diminished but doesn't it matter doesn't it matter like when it was too like like eventually things like mk ultra got revealed in some ways but it was after the fact so it's like yeah but for example you don't you don't know that an mk ultra the two major guys that were protecting the kind of death of people that occurred were Warren Burger, who became the Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court,

and Jacob Javits, who became the United States Senator of the state of New York. You don't know any of that stuff, right? And they say, well, you can't reveal that stuff, because that would really undermine people's blind confidence in the elite. So you can't do that. So let's see, they have, that's why the people that are the guardians of the national security state are not the right people to be making these decisions, because they are so wedded to the blind allegiance to the kind of elite that are in charge of the planet right now, in that they're used to the brinkmanship of threatening thermonuclear destruction of the entire planet on behalf of maintaining their continued privileged access to the strategic raw materials, that they view that to be a legitimate mission.

So they really can't be the ones that are making these decisions. All of that will come down to who the people are that are going to be on this nine-person commission, right? This panel, the board of review. That this sets out. That this sets out. Now, they clearly are intending to have those nine people be people made up of the exact same elements that have kept it secret for all this time.

Yeah, like a warrant commission. Yeah, that's right. And you can't let that happen. And so what we have to do as citizens, we have to be able to develop a strong enough citizen base of educated people who know how to put pressure on their congressional representatives and senators, et cetera, to be able to make sure that the people that end up getting appointed to that particular commission, you know, are people who are not dedicated to the same kind of preservations that they're talking about.

They're not dedicated to maintaining all the elements of power in the exact same position they are now. They're not dedicated to keeping secret whatever some of the excesses are that some people have gone to, to protect the secrets, etc. And if you can get them to start listing the kind of things they think are catastrophic, then what you have to do is you have to say, well, the people that are going to be on this board, you know, cannot be devoted to protecting that kind of information because that's not really catastrophic. All that really is is a goring your own ox, you know, in the national security state. And so that your myopia in determining what is catastrophic from what is potentially catastrophic in reality

is not to be trusted. Okay, so that the dynamic that takes place once this gets to be passed by the House, this is easy to get passed by the Senate because they passed it unanimously out of the Senate Intelligence Committee They passed the 64 page bill, you know with you know What's wrong with the house? The the house is the fact that they've got guys like Turner who is the head of the the House Intelligence Committee Who who's from the 10th congressional district of Ohio where the Wright-Patterson Air Force Base is. You know, you got the guy like Rogers, Mike Rogers, over in the 2nd Congressional District in Alabama, where the Redstone Rocket Range is, where they're doing the back engineering training.

You know, they've both persuaded, you know, Mike Johnson, who's kind of hanging on by the skin of his teeth, you know, being the speaker of the house You know who can be threatened by any given one person to remove him that they talked him into Refusing to allow the bill to come to a vote if this if this 64 page bill It was passed virtually unanimously by the United States Senate were put to a floor vote in the house We'd have 400 votes to pass this but they won't put it because because a full tiny handful of people that are wedded to the aerospace industry right so that but this is eventually going to get passed i mean the it's clear that the political forces that have come together to make

this the proposal the united states senate is proposing being proposed by the the majority leader of the senate with chuck schumer, and guys like Marco Rubio, you know, and Mike Rounds, you know, from South Dakota, that this is going to become the law. And it's going to take a few passes to get this done. And it's clear that the struggle is going to be over who the panel is going to be, and you know, who the president is going to be and who the president is going to appoint to that panel. And so that we know that we have access to the democratic instrumentalities of our government if we will do our job. You know, you and I know how lazy average American people are. People would spend more time watching football games than they would bothering to read

this statute. It is also boring. No, it's actually quite exciting. You think that the way they write this is exciting? No, but what I'm saying is that when you realize that they're actually talking about releasing the top secret information about the UFOs, and they start saying they're talking about flying saucers, and they're talking about extraterrestrial life forms. You know, when you see this in a bill like this, you say, now, this is pretty interesting stuff, okay? But the fact of the matter is that we're not even requiring them to spend their time reading the bill. We're telling them what's in the bill. You know, here, we'll give it to you in like a one and a half page synopsis, okay? So what we have to do is get people being willing to exercise their

constitutional responsibility as citizens if they really want to do this. And we have to be able to demonstrate to the people that want to have the controlled disclosure that the American people want more than they're willing to tell. That's what we need to do. We're also dancing around a 500 pound elephant in the room here which is the fact that we're not just talking about the government itself when it comes to this topic and this is where we can bring in the ufo crash retrievals because that's the best example right here you're with this bill it's you're talking about the government being able to reveal what they know and what they have access to. But in speaking with Lou and hearing some other guys who are familiar with this stuff talk,

allegedly, there's a huge problem where, if you want to just paint the term military industrial complex on it, I think that's pretty apropos, there's a huge problem where the United States government over the past six, seven decades has given private organizations, meaning like the Lockheeds of the world, the Northrop's, whoever, fill in the blank here, access to not only head up some of these programs, but to literally have carte blanche to do what they want such that the evidence that they may recover from something like a UFO crash retrieval

isn't even owned by the government. Even if the government declares them in a domain, we don't even know where some of this stuff is because the organizations themselves have it. How do we rein in something that's now seven decades in the making potentially? What you do is actually in this 64-page bill, they are included. This does have an eminent domain. This does have subpoena power. This does have the right to issue subpoenas, take depositions, to go after them, to dig this information out from them.

But you've got to know what you're looking for, no? Yeah. I've done this for 50 years. Once you start going down this road, you have a pretty good idea of what you're looking for. And our job is to identify what it is we're looking for, and at least in broad categories, and to make sure that they don't dodge us. You know, we've succeeded in doing this over and over and over again. Okay. So this particular bill is drafted to deal with those aerospace corporations. Okay.

The House bill doesn't. They specifically took out demanding that the aerospace corporations pony up what all their information is. Okay. They did that intentionally. And it's an obvious thing that they what all their information is. Okay? They did that intentionally. And it's an obvious thing that they've done. Of course. Okay? So what we have to do is turn our focus on the House of Representatives

to make sure that we can get those three guys out of position. You know, you get rid of Turner as the head of the Intelligence Committee, you get rid of Rogers as the head of the Armed Services Committee, and you get rid of Johnson as the Speaker of the House. Meaning like vote them out of office altogether? No, no. They just, if in fact the democratic party takes over the house of representatives, all those three guys get, lose their job. You know, they're out, you know? And so that the people who ascend into positions of authority now are not yet in the pocket of the aerospace industry. Okay. How do we know that? Because we know who they are. Okay. And so that, that, that, that if, if in fact the Democrats

take control of the house of representatives, you know, they will pass this, this 64 page bill. Okay. They will pass the bill. All right. And as long as the, in, in whether the Senate, whether the Democrats hold control of the Senate or not doesn't make any difference because the Republicans inside the Senate support the bill too. And so the Senate, no matter what happens with it, is going to repass this bill. And if the House goes over into the call of Democrats, the Democrats are going to vote for this. So then we're into the struggle over who's going to be put on that panel. Okay? And so what I'm saying is the reason that you have lawyers, the reason that the people, our people have lawyers, the population like

myself, is that we can help steer the way through this process so that we can get at them. Now, you have the right to make a rejoinder saying, yeah, but doesn't it always turn out getting a little too little too late? You know, isn't it clear that the Congress is really under the control of the military industrial complex and the major capitalists? The answer is yes, unless and until we do our job. They realize that the American people have been cowed into not exercising our authority. Okay? And we're letting them get away with this. And what we've got to do

in the New Paradigm Institute, for example, we've got to be able to explain to people the kind of dangers that this is generating, you know, that this is a dangerous situation that we've got here now, that we've got the doomsday clock of the American atomic scientists, the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists, has now reset the doomsday clock for the first time. Now, it's 90 seconds before midnight. This is the shortest fuse on the doomsday clock that has ever existed since it was created in 1947, because the United States military now has moved nuclear missiles, the B61 nuclear missiles, the mid-range nuclear missiles, into Germany and into Poland now. They're moving them into the eastern bloc right now. his field commanders now to train up the deployment and the use of tactical nuclear weapons in the field in order to protect those two provinces that they've taken back in Crimea.

Yeah. Okay. So we know that that's happening now. And just last week, the Biden administration has now issued a, what they call nuclear deployment and employment executive order, preparing to put short fuses on 1600 United States missiles in the submarines in the forward projection for immediate first strike and to coordinate the first strike against the Soviet Union, China and North Korea all at one time. Okay, and they've issued that order now to start preparing that. And that's why the doomsday machine now is the doomsday clock has been put to 90 seconds short of midnight. Okay, so the people need to understand that. And they need to understand

that there's now this is correlated with a major upsurge in the UFO surveillance of all of our nuclear facilities. Okay, and that they've demonstrated their capacity to shut them off. They've demonstrated their capacity, and they've demonstrated their capacity to be able to shut down our nuclear aircraft carrier. And in other countries as well. That's right. And so that, you know, and so that that type of intervention, if it becomes necessary for them to intervene in order to preserve the life-generating capacity of our planet so as not to be destroyed by thermonuclear exchange, that's going to reveal their presence. Okay? And the national security state is not prepared yet for revealing their presence.

So what they've done is they've come forward with this process right here. They've come forward with this process to figure out how they can choreograph releasing an adequate amount of information to start preparing our people so they can continue to utilize nuclear weapons as a threat to establish and control, maintain their control. That's what they're doing right now. So we're not being bamboozled by what they're up to here but but this this is also so the people who are involved with this and getting this forward are the people who were part of that's right part of atip and a part of awesap that's right before that and that those programs regardless of however they morphed into each other yeah they obviously they talk all in skiffs it's highly secretive guys like like Hal Puthoff, Jacques Vallée are involved, some of the brightest minds in the world. But still you say that specifically like some UFO crash retrieval groups in the Pentagon were far more secretive than that? Oh, yes.

So how sinister is that stuff then? Very. Very. And those are the people that we have to figure out whether we can get the people here that are doing this to be on our side, to be able to dig those people out and put them out of business. That's the key to this thing. Do you think that's possible? Cynically, my head goes, I don't think so. I do. I think it's a dangerous game, because those people view themselves as authorized to use lethal force, and they view themselves as authorized to use lethal force against these

people. And so it's a dangerous game, you know, but it's Father David's. Nobody gets out of life alive here, you know? And so what we've got to do is... Spring is here, and you can now get almost anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. What do we mean by almost? You can't get a well-groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parmesan delivered. Sunshine? No.

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Okay? And to save the planet from a potential intervention, which we're not yet ready for. Yeah. Okay? On the part of the extraterrestrial people. And so what we've got to do is start getting our people prepared for this so that it can be a positive relationship that we have with the extraterrestrial civilization. I mean, we've got to come to grips with this reality.

Yeah. You know? And that what we have to do is we have to take steps to try to preserve as much agency as we can for our own sovereignty as a species on our planet. We ought to have as much authority to make our own decisions as possible. If we're so stupid as that we've come right to the brink of an actual thermonuclear war that mandates the kind of intervention of an extraterrestrial civilization to come in and say, that's it, you've abused your authority, you're out of business now. Okay? So the question is, you know, how much out of business are we going to get put here? You know, are they going to come in and take over entirely and say, look, you guys have threatened the destruction of the

life-generating capacity of your entire planet, we can't allow that to happen. So you've lost your authority. What we have to do as a citizenry is we have to demonstrate that we merit preserving some degree of agency over our own decision-making process. And the way that we have to do that is by taking care of these people and getting rid of them. That's what we have to do. We have to demonstrate that we're capable of mobilizing and getting rid of this elite that is threatening our planet for their own personal self advantage.

We've got to be able to demonstrate that or else we've forsaken our rights. There's something that that makes me wanna to jump to but before i do maybe some context would help here because i had stopped you earlier from going into this a couple hours ago yeah but you mentioned that after the carter stuff went down and then was handled and went away the next real way that you got involved with this was when you got a call from dr john mack yes which was what early 90s 1994 okay didn't he die in 1994 no he died in 2004 he died in 2004 okay yeah sorry he was hit he was hit by a car in london in 2004 yeah was he was he hit by a car yes he was i was on the phone i was on the phone with danny his son, within an hour. Was the car driven by someone suspicious?

No, no. He's in prison still. It was a drunk taxi cab driver going just too fast. And John just looked the wrong way stepping off the curb. Okay. You know my conspiracy brain things. I know. We were on that like white on rice. But you – so you get the call from him. What did he want from you specifically? And can you tell people who Dr. John Mack was?

Dr. John Mack was the head of the Department of Clinical Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School. And one of the protocols that have been adopted by the National Security State infrastructure in order to protect the secrets of the fact that they were in possession of a non-human origin extraterrestrial spacecraft in the bodies of the non-human occupants of the spacecraft, and that they were engaged in this secret program of bringing down intact craft so they could back-engineer them and try to figure out how to fly them and use them for weapons. Part of the protocol that they'd adopted was that if anybody were to assert that they had seen a real UFO, the first thing that they would do in the military saying,

oh, if you're insisting upon filing a report of having seen one of these, the first thing you have to do is take a psychiatric exam, you know? And they would mandate this and they would say, oh, we're doing this as a favor for you because if you're going to be making these kind of accusations, you know, we want to make sure that people realize that you're mentally stable. So the first thing they would do is order you to get a psychiatric exam, which goes right into your professional file. Right. And so it turns out that John Mack was the place to which they would send them as the, you know, the, go to Harvard Medical School to give the head of the clinical psychiatry department to perform the services. So John had done this for several high-ranking military officials who had actually gone forward and insisted upon filing, you know,

the UFO sighting reports, for example, at Malmstrom, you know, when they shut off our nuclear missiles, that, what's it said, Colonel Dewey, what was his last name, Dewey Donaldson, I think his name was, said that he, you know, insisted upon filing a UFO report, saying, look, I can't, I've got my missiles completely turned off here. He said, you know, I've got to report to, so he ended up doing that, and they ordered him to get a psychiatric exam. He ended up going to Harvard Medical School, right? And John Mack is the guy that does the test. And John ends up, after half a dozen of these guys over a period of years, saying, this is really peculiar, because these guys are all within the normal parameters of being psychiatrically healthy, and yet they're all insisting upon doing this thing, which is not a career builder for them.

Why in the world are they doing that? And he ended up talking to his mother about it, interestingly. And she said, oh, you should talk to the Hopkins boy. family. Bud Hopkins is a fellow who has been gathering lots of information about people who've had these kind of face-to-face encounters with the people that are flying these UFOs. And so he ended up getting to meet Bud Hopkins, and Bud Hopkins introduced him to more and more people who had had not only sightings of the UFOs, but it had direct face-to-face contact with some of the occupants. Oh yeah, face-to-face contact with some of the occupants. That started to happen. And so John started interviewing some of these people. Including the Zimbabwe 94 kids. That was in 94, later. But he started this earlier in 1990.

You know, he was doing it for almost four years before he... What he decided to do is, he decided finally after having interviewed about a hundred of these people, he decided he was going to write an article for the New England Journal of Medicine saying this is very peculiar because there's this phenomenon going on. And people who have had no contact with each other, had no information about UFOs ahead of time are all telling these similar stories. And so I'm going to write a paper for the New England Journal of Medicine. So he submits it to the New England Journal of Medicine, the preeminent peer-reviewed journal for medicine in the United States. And within a matter of days, they send it back to him, say they're not going to publish it. And John is taken aback. John's a Pulitzer Prize winner. He's won the Pulitzer Prize for writing the definitive psychobiography of T.E. Lawrence, right? Lawrence of Arabia. And so he's taken

aback and he says, okay, what I'm going to do is I'm going to rewrite this and I'm going to make more footnotes and more scientific details and I'm going to send it back in. So he sends it back in and it turns out within two days, the executive secretary for Arnold Relman, who is the editor-in-chief of the New England Journal of Medicine, sends his executive secretary back to John's office with the envelope unopened and said, you know, Dr. Relman has ordered me to bring this back to you and to point out to you that it's been unopened, that we're not going to only not print it, we're not even going to read it, you know? And so he's taken aback by this and he ends up contacting a publisher because he won the Pulitzer Prize,

he could do this. And so he gets it published, okay? And it comes out, and immediately within a day of going on the newsstands, you know, the dean, Arnaldson, comes in to the, not Arnaldson, that's Arnie Arnaldson, was the commander of the Maelstrom, it's Arnie Arnaldson. That Tolson comes in, the dean of the medical school, and says, John, I see that you wrote this really interesting book about abduction stuff. You know, you and I ought to be able to chat about this. You know, if we're going to chat about it, why don't we have a few of the other faculty come in and we'll talk about this. So John is going, this is great. People are going to really talk about my book. And so he shows up, and here they are arraigned as a tribunal.

You know, and here's the dean of the medical schools of the legal counsel for Harvard University, and in chairing this tribunal is in fact, the, the, uh, Rellman, you know, Arnold Rellman, who is the publisher of the New England Journal of Medicine. He's an advisor to the medical school, he's chairing the tribunal. So they started excoriating him for embarrassing Harvard University by writing about a controversial subject like this as though it were real. Stigmatization. So he ends up being freaked out by this and ends up, long story, but he ends up calling me and asking me if I'll represent him in front of the tribunal. Well, you're a Harvard guy too. So I imagine that's why there was a connection there. And I assume he was aware of your work in the seventies. Yeah, he was. Okay. Yeah. It actually came, you know, sidebar, but it came through a Ron Robertson,

who was his best friend. Ron Robertson was his best man. He and Sally, when they were married, they were in the air force together in Korea. And Ron Robinson approached me. I was teaching at the University of California, Santa Barbara. And he approached me and said, look, my best friend, John Mack, has now been dragged up in front of this tribunal. Would you be willing to take a call from him to help him? And so I said, sure. And so John called me and flew me in. So I go to the tribunal, right? And here's the tribunal all arrayed there. And all of a sudden, our arraignment starts to interrogate John again. And I said, excuse me. I said, hold on a second. I don't know exactly what's going on here. I don't know exactly what this tribunal is.

It's clearly not an AAUP convened tribunal from the American Association of University Professors. I said, you know, that I can't tell what you're doing here. And Rommel says, oh, well, what happened is when Dr. Mack wrote this book, a number of people started calling to the dean here. And they were asking him a number of questions, and he didn't know the answer to the question. And so he thought that he better just talk with John and get the answer to some of these questions. As long as he's going to be doing that, why not have some other people from the faculty come and say, you know, he's sitting

here trying to bullshit me about, you know, here's this tribunal sitting there with a legal counsel for Harvard University. And so I said, well, okay. I said, in that case, in the spirit of cooperation, just in order to try to help you out on this, you know, who is it that called? There was this great big dead silence falls over the room, right? And they're all just sitting looking at each other. And finally, the legal counsel just shakes her head no. And he said, well, I'm sorry. we're not at liberty to discuss who it was that

called. And then I said, well, okay, well then, you know, if you want us to help try to answer these questions, you know, can you tell us, you know, what were the questions they were asking? Big, long, dead silence settles in again, and the legal counsel shakes her head no, and Roman says, I'm sorry, we're not at liberty to discuss that either. And so I said, okay, look, then whatever the nature of this tribunal is, I said, can you tell me this? During the course of the process, are either one or both of the following fact questions potentially going to be at issue here? Number one, whether an extraterrestrial civilization exists, and secondly, whether at least some of these sightings of these UFO phenomenon might actually be a vehicle from an extraterrestrial civilization.

And Reltman says, well, absolutely those questions are going to be relevant, and it's completely ridiculous to think that either one of those things can be true, he says. This is Harvard University, 1994. I was just sort of taken aback. And I said, well, I guess in that case, in the spirit of openness and transparency, I should tell you that John and I just spent the weekend with Lawrence Rockefeller. And Lawrence Rockefeller has agreed to pay for a complete Grand Rounds here at Harvard. You know, we'll bring in the chief investigators of the Federal Aviation Agency.

We'll bring in military commanders and others. You know, we'll have a whole Grand Rounds here. I'm happy to present all this information. And the legal counsel for Harvard University leaps to her feet, and she says, absolutely not. She says, we're not going to allow this to be turned into some kind of circus, she says. And so I said okay john i said

i guess that's it you know we'll come back when they're ready you know and so john ends up assigning me to interview all of the major experts in the world uh because we had all the financing we need from from lawrence rockefeller we had harvard university as our faculty a gilded age family i gotta say it so which which gilded which i, I got to say it. So which one? I mean, the same kind of idea. Like we were talking about the Melons earlier, and now the Rockefellers are getting involved. Well, he's going to pay for it.

He's going to pay for it. Yeah, why? Because, as it turns out, because his best friend, his best friend, who actually was the Prince of Lichtenstein, to be clear about it, according to Lawrence, that his best friend had actually put his hand right on one. He was hiking in the mountains, you know, somewhere in Europe. And here was a UFO sitting right in the middle of this meadow. And he went over and put his hand on it and knew that it was absolutely real.

And he told Lawrence Rockefeller about it. And so he was absolutely convinced that this was real he said and this is outrageous he said that for them to be keeping this secret and so he agreed to finance the whole thing and John sent you to talk to every expert in the world like who so so I got to talk to Bud Hopkins I got to talk to David Jacobs I got to talk to Stanton Friedman I got to talk to you know Stephen Greer I got to talk to Linda Moulton Howe I got to talk to Stanton Friedman. I got to talk to, you know, Stephen Greer. I got to talk to Linda Moulton Howe. I got to talk to all kinds of almost all the experts you could possibly think of. Okay? And in starting at the head of the FAA, the Federal Aviation Agency, the chief investigator for them,

you know, I got to talk to Arne Arnaldsen, who was the commander of the of the Maelstrom base. You know, I got to just start lining up all these people just like a regular trial. And what were your conclusions based on all those conversations from like a high level? What were your broad conclusions? Well, I also, it was interesting, John also had this thing called the peer group, which was the project for extraordinary experience research. So there were actual contactees, lots of regular people, contactees that he had interviewed down through the three or four years prior to writing the book, right? And so I got to interview these people, too, and I got to vet them and talk with them and interrogate them, cross-examine them, etc.

What did you think of them? Credible? Yeah, I vetted a number of these people and got to the ones that I thought were absolutely credible, cross-examined them, and verified from my own belief that they had had these encounters. And so I was saying, this is really far out. I'm in a position to actually talk to the leading experts in the entire world, and actual people who've had these direct encounters, and they've been vetted through to me from Dr. Mack, you know, and I can see their psychological profile, so I know that they're within the normal parameters of normal people, you know, and so I'm starting to put together all of

these witnesses. So I ended up in this kind of extraordinary position of knowing all of this stuff, and so I had no doubt at all that this was true. Right? So I'd already seen the photographs of the crash recovery back in 77. So here I was now meeting all of these different people. And I got to talk to David Jacobs, who was terribly worried about the abductions that were going on and the breeding program that was going. So I was getting all the different positions that people had on this. Did you,

do you, you meant you said you use the word contactees when you're talking about who you were talking with, but did that also include people who claim to have been abducted? Yes. Oh yeah. They were experiencers. They were people who had been abducted and taken aboard the craft,

had undergone medical experiments and stuff. Do you have an example from those conversations? Oh, sure. Can you give that? Sure. There was a young guy that was like a 32, 33-year-old guy. He was a contractor up in New Hampshire. And he had come home from work one Friday evening, and he lived out in kind

of a rural area up in New Hampshire. And he was coming back home, and he was going to sit down and kind of watch like Washington Week in Review or something on the local television. And he was making himself a little TV dinner, and he set the little table up, and he was getting set to watch this. And he thought he saw somebody out on the porch, out on his side porch. And he was out in a rural area and so he gets up and goes out and looks. There's nobody there.

And he comes back and sits down and starts to watch the show again. He gets this feeling there's somebody out there. And he gets up and he goes out to the kitchen and he goes out into the kitchen and he looks out through the window, and he goes out into the kitchen, and he looks out through the window, and there she was. She? Yeah, there she was, he said, and that was the last thing he could remember. Where, there, who was? It was the last thing, well, that's all he thought. So,

something happened, and then he woke up the next morning in his bed with all of his clothes on and He shoes everything in his bed And and couldn't remember what had happened, but did he see when he says she is he talking about like a being well? You know it was interesting that that was all that he said And he went he went and told his friend about it was a psychologist because it kept Or you know nagging at him because he couldn't figure out what the heck happened to him, because he woke up the next morning in his own bed with his clothes on and everything. And so his friend, after two or three different episodes of him expressing how

distressed he was about all this, said, well, look, there's a guy down in Cambridge that's actually interviewing people who think that they've had some kind of a lost time thing, and you ought to go down and talk to them. So he goes down to talk to John. And so John brings him home and brings him to his house and puts him on his little couch. I've been there a hundred times. And sits down and does this holotropic breathing thing, not hypnosis, but this kind of relaxing breathing.

And he takes him back through the whole episode, and he gets back to the kitchen, right? And he walks out in the kitchen and he says, and there she is. And John says, who are we talking about here? And he said, well, there she was. She was looking through the window and John said, well, who is it? What do they look like? And he said, well, you know, she's got the big head and the big kind of dark eyes, kind of wrapped around the eyes and little holes. And John says, wait a second, is this like a person or something that you're saying? He said, no, it was like this ET person. And John said, well, wait a second, what happened then? He said, well, she kind of telepathically suggested I come outdoors. So I went outdoors. She led me out through the field. She brought me in and we went inside this great big saucer that was out in the middle of the meadow and brought me in and had me take off all my clothes, did this physical exam of me and did

all this. And he goes through the details. And so John gets all done with this session with the guy. And then the guy comes back a couple of weeks later. And John believes it. Well, it sounded completely credible to John. I mean, the guy had all kinds of the proper emotions and everything that were going with it. So John is kind of puzzled by this. We asked the guy to come back. And he comes back a couple weeks later, and he takes him through the same thing.

He gets set to eat his meal. He thinks somebody's on the porch, goes over to the kitchen, and there she is. And so John said, wait a second. He said, now when you said, and there she is, it sounded like, did you recognize her? And the guy said, yes, yes, I did. He said, well, John said, well, where had you seen her before? And he said, well, actually, I had seen her before back when I was in college. He said, I was coming home from her long weekend. It was like a holiday weekend or something. I was driving back home from down in Boston where I was in school, and I was driving along, and about two o'clock in the morning, I was coming near the house, and all of a sudden, I saw this little

craft-like land in the field. So I stopped the car and I got out and I walked out into the field and there she was. And he said, what happened? Well, she took me on board and gave me this physical examination and stuff. And he goes through this entire story, right? And so John's going, well, this is really interesting. So you had twice, twice you've been abducted by this same person. And he said, yeah. And so John said to him, I said, look, when you walked out into the field and you saw her, you know, was she familiar? Is that the first time you ever saw her? And he said, no, no, I recognized her right away. And John said, well, when had you seen her before? And he said, well, he said, when I was a little kid,

I was like about four or five years old. My sister was like six years old at the time. She and I were out with our mother and father. We were having a picnic. And my sister and I were out playing in the meadow and we kind of wandered off to the edge of the woods and there she was standing by this tree. And my sister and I went over and talked to her and we played and she talked with us and stuff. Talked with them telepathically? Yeah, communicated with her telepathically, she said. Or he said. And then so

John was excited. He said, oh, then your sister saw her too? And he said, oh yes. He said, but she won't talk about it. She refuses to talk. She's never going to talk about this. And John said, well look, let me call her. He said, she won to talk about this. And John said, well, look, let me call her. Let me give her.

He said, she won't talk about it. And he said, well, just let me try. So John gets the phone number. He calls her up, and he says, you know, he says, hello. You know, my name is Dr. John Mack. I'm the chairman of the Department of Clinical Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School. And I've been talking to your brother here. And he indicates that there was a, he thinks he has a memory of there being some event that took place when he was four years old. She said, I'm not going to

talk about it. He said, well, look, I'm just trying to get to know, I told him I'm never going to talk about this, period, period. I'm not going to talk with you. So she hangs up the phone. So John is kind of getting confirmation from her that this has happened, right? And so this is one of the kind of people that John had interviewed. The reason I remember this is because Michael Lindeman had called my attention to this particular event, and what had happened, John then goes back and asks him again, he says, okay, now let's talk about this again. So he has like a fourth interview with this guy, he said, okay, now let's talk about this again. So he has like a fourth interview with this guy. He said, okay, now you're four years old and your sister's six years old.

You're out in the meadow. You're walking around. You see this lady standing over by the tree. Now, let me tell you, you look at the lady. Did you recognize her? He said, yeah. Yeah. He said, I recognize her. My sister recognized you too. He said, well, when had you seen her before this? He said, well, you know, I'm sitting in this room, and the room is like a small room. It's got like stones. The walls are made out of stones, and there's this kind of window here, and I'm getting set to, I'm talking with this ET lady, and she's saying, it's perfectly okay. Look, you did the best you could. You tried to get the owner of the land here to give the people that were working on the land more of their food that they were growing for them, and now you're getting set to be executed, but you've done the right thing.

And here he is talking about his prior life, and all of a sudden, he's sharing this information about him having a previous encounter with this being in a previous life. Just bang like that, you know, and John is going, whoa, what is this? And so I remember that particular, I remember that particular one. What did John, like, did you ever have conversations with him about what he theorized this was? Like, did he ever thought like, oh, these are future humans? Oh, these are aliens visiting from somewhere else? What did he think? He spent an awful lot of time reflecting upon this, trying to figure out what this really was.

And John started out assuming that they were like extraterrestrial, that they were like from some other planet, you know, somewhere. And so he kept on probing this thing and he kept doing more and more research about it and interviewing more and more people. And then he started interviewing a lot of Aboriginal people. Aboriginal. Aboriginal people down in South America and stuff that were in the jungles and stuff that thought they had encountered some of these beings.

He interviewed Native American people, and he started getting the sense that there was this kind of shamanic dimension to this whole thing, that these beings, it may not be as simple as they just come from another planet somewhere on these craft, but that they've got some kind of a shamanic dimension to them. And then he started deciding, look, it's absolutely essential that I not try to impose upon them any conclusion about exactly what's going on here, or else I'm never going to really find out what's going on. And so he immediately starts into this kind of Rogerian. Carl Rogers is one of the psychiatrists who's got this theory that you're never directive when you're interviewing the people. And just let them talk and listen to them and don't judge them.

Don't try to attack them. Don't make them feel guilty about what they're experiencing. So you can try to unload what it is they're saying, determine whether you think it's some kind of a Jungian archetype that's going on in them or whether they're having a real experience, you know. And so he got into this kind of very Rogerian kind of passivity about, you know, making any judgments about what they were or where they came from or how real this was. And so he started moving. In fact, he was taking kind of a self-protective position, which was genuine, trying to explain to the people on the panel, look, he says, I'm not saying anything about this, about exactly how it was true,

but I can tell you that people were completely sincere about it, you know, and I can just tell you that, you know, that we ran all the different tests on the people, and they were all, otherwise, they were all completely normal psychologically, and yet they were having this kind of experience. He said, and I began to do things, like I would ask them questions when they were doing the holotropic breathing, and all of a sudden, they find themselves aboard this craft, and he starts asking them questions when they were doing the holotropic breathing. All of a sudden, they find themselves aboard this craft, and he starts asking them questions like, well, what can you see there? What's it look like?

Are there any instruments around? What do they look like? And he was getting them to describe the kind of equipment inside the UFOs, and he was doing this kind of full-scale investigation to try to figure out what was going on. And he was thunderstruck by the similarity of all this information yeah i one of the things that's always crazy to me is when you look at the history of even just 20th century alone sightings so beyond just what we're

talking about right now these are different countries different people of different backgrounds different ages before internet before there before there could be some behind the scenes coordination. And they described many of the same things. And I'm sure that had to play with, just really fuck with the mind of a John Mack type guy who's looking at this more than anyone else. Yeah, he just said, look, there's something really uncanny about this.

And so he decided that's why he wanted to write the article. And he was going to write the article. He said, this is something that we need to share with the psychiatric community to try to figure out whether we can figure out what's happening here. And then they come down on him like a load of bricks, you know, and I end up getting brought in. And so I end up starting to meet all these people. And so I ended up saying, look, let's present to the Harvard faculty all the information, the witnesses and stuff that we have. And I had to have a local council. I brought on a local council, this fellow, I went over to talk to Lawrence Tribe, my constitutional law professor, to see if he

could recommend somebody as local counsel. And I talked to Al Dershowitz, who I'd had. And Al- Al, like the Al Dershowitz. Yeah, Al Dershowitz. Al recommended Harvey Silverstein. And I called Harvey to see if he would be local counsel. He was in the middle of a big trial. So he recommended this kid, Eric, what's his name, McLeish, Eric McLeish.

Eric. And Eric was just a young kid. And I said, look, all you've got to do is just be local counsel because I'm admitted in New York and in Washington, D.C., but I'm not admitted here. And so he agreed to do it. And then Eric, right from the very beginning, kept on trying to figure out how to settle the case. Kept on saying, wait a second, let's get out of this thing. Let's make this go away. And I kept saying, wait a second, this is the opportunity of a lifetime. You know, we've got a grand rounds here at Harvard. We got it all financed by Lawrence Rockefeller. Let's, let's be, and I kept saying, wait a second, this is the opportunity of a lifetime. You know, we've got a grand rounds here at Harvard. We got it all financed by, by Lawrence Rockefeller. Let's go get it. And he kept going, no, no, we really,

we really need to try to settle this thing. And I said, I didn't want to fire him or anything, but he, he kept on going behind my back and trying to talk, talk John into, and of course, Sally, his wife wanted to get rid of this thing. Sally was just, it was ruining her life. You know, I mean, they stopped inviting them to social events at Harvard. They stopped, you know, stopped inviting them to people's, oh yeah. I mean, they just kind of, he was kind of getting ostracized by the entire Harvard community. You know, and when I was talking to Dersh and Larry and the other guys, they were all going, oh, it's too bad. You know, when I was talking to Dersh and Larry and the other guys, they were all going, oh, it's too bad. You know, John's going through some sort of midlife crisis.

I talked to Alan Stone. Alan Stone's a good friend of mine. Alan Stone was the head of the McLean Institute. You know, and he taught the course on psychology and the law at Harvard. So I had taken the course before, so I knew about a lot of this stuff. And, you know, they were all saying, oh, poor oh, poor John, he's going through some midlife crisis. And they were totally unsympathetic. The whole faculty was completely unsympathetic to him. But this is something he continued it to the last day of his life.

Absolutely stuck with it. And wrote a second book called Passport to the Cosmos, where he actually talks about how inchoate this whole thing is. It's not really clear what's going on, how much of it is psychological, how much of it is archetypal stuff. And of course, we ended up talking to people like Jacques Vallee and read this stuff by Carl Jung. I mean, Carl Jung actually had this entire theory that the UFOs are, in fact, a photoplasmic projection into actual material manifestation of a deep unconscious fear that our whole species has about our direction in the future. Of going toward more and more, you know, losing our compassion, losing our emotions, becoming more and more technical and becoming more and more atrophied because of our lack of exercise. You know, Jung goes into this big long deal. I mean, an actual photoplasmic projection into actual material manifestation of a deep

abiding fear of our future. And so we had to entertain all of these things, you things, to put them up in front of us and try to evaluate what the different theories were. And David Jacobs was just beside himself about how horrible it was, these abductions that were going on, that they were engaged in this clear breeding program of taking the egg cells out of the women that were abducted and sperm cells from the men and that they were combining their own dna with these and generating children i mean all true it's all true the how do you know that's true because i've talked to a dozen people in the details about how what the things they went through like did okay so people who actually claim that that

happened oh yeah did they have children that they children that they thought were inseminated by aliens? They had, for example, Karen, this one woman. She gets abducted, and she doesn't have any recollection of what happened to her, and she goes through this regression and gets back to realizing that she's been abducted, and that they did this operation on her, and they removed some of the live eggs from her, and that they then, all of a sudden, when she woke back up the next day, she was pregnant, and she hadn't been with anybody for like two years, you know, and so she was completely puzzled by this, so she goes to the obstetrician, and they verify that she's pregnant. She carries the baby all the way to the end of the first trimester for three full months.

She's going to the doctors and taking care of herself. Then all of a sudden she gets abducted again, and then she's not pregnant. How did she get abducted again. And then she's not pregnant. How did she get abducted again? She just, she was in her, she was in her living room. And all of a sudden she said the hair, the hair started standing up on her arms and the back of her neck. And she started getting this really kind of electric feeling. And all of a sudden here are these three little guys standing in the middle of the room and ended up picking her up and taking her with him, you know. And she went through the details, and they brought her on board, and she didn't remember the details, but she had some sort of an operation.

They removed the three-month-old zygote, you know. Zygote. Yeah, it was a child that was starting to be grown. And then she was furious about this, of course. And the next time they showed up, she started throwing things at them. She threw a chair at them and a lamp at them, and the guy kicked one of them, knocked him down, you know, and they were doing this thing. And so she ended up, John started talking with her because she'd been abducted a number of times. And so we had designed this program,

John and I, and talking about it, about the people who are repeat abductees. We said, wait a second, what we can do is we can help train these people to be kind of really calmed down, you know, do the holotropic breathing. When you think this thing is starting to happen, just calm down, take a lot of deep breaths and wait. And so we're going to set up like this diplomatic corps. When you see an alien, just count to five. Take deep breaths, you know? And so it was true.

So we had this whole thing figured out. And Karen was a great prospect. And so we said, look, let's see if we can get Karen trained to do this. So Karen did it. And she goes through this whole process of doing the holotropic breathing, et cetera, because she was so upset about what had happened. And so the next time it happened, all of a sudden she starts getting the hair standing up on her arms and stuff. And she starts doing the holotropic breathing. And all of a sudden, these three little dudes show up in her living room, right? And so they're doing this thing, waiting to get hit with a lamp or something.

And she's just kind of mellow and centered and starts having these telepathic communications with them. And they were kind of impressed by how she kind of mellowed about this. And they actually brought her with them, brought her up onto the craft and brought her, had her take off all of her clothes, get in this pool, this kind of gelatin pool that they had. It was this aqua-colored stuff, and she had to get down underneath it and breathe it in and fill her lungs in with it and stay under the thing. And they took her with them, and they brought her to where their planet was, she said. To their planet. Yeah, as far as she could tell.

All she knows is she was under there, and it was like some period of time she stayed under there. And then when they got there and they took her up out of the pool and she tossed up, threw up all this stuff. And then they brought her in through this little, like, almost like a thing when you're getting off like an airplane-like thing. And they brought her into this room, and there was her little girl. And she was like three years old at that time. Her little girl? Her little—she knew instantaneously that this was her little girl and she was like like three years old her little girl her little she knew instantaneously that this was her child uh and it was a that they had removed that that's right that's right and they brought the child to term the child was like three years old and the child looked like a human she she was a kind of really kind of big big big dark eyes uh

very thin stringy kind of hair you, big kind of a large head. But she was a combination between the human being and the thing. And she recognized right away that it was her daughter. And she hugged her and carried her around and cooed her and talked with her for the whole day. And then they brought her back, you know. But she actually got to see her daughter well i asked you what john mack thought these were but you've talked with all these people too and you've been doing this for so many years what do you think this is do you think do you think

these are from another planet yeah i think humans i know i think this is real simple you know this is this is like you know occam's razor you know. We know that there's, you know, now we know that there's not just 100 billion stars in our system. They put up the Hubble, and they realized that there were 200 billion stars in our thing. Then they put up the Planck thing, and they realized that there were 300 billion stars. Now with the James Webb thing, they know there's like a 500 billion star systems in our galaxy, okay? And that they've all got planets. They're sure that they've all got planets now. They're virtually certain they've all got planets. And the 20% of them have got planets in the so-called Goldilocks area, you know, and that some portion of them

have generated life, obviously. So there's other intelligent civilizations. And you give them five, six billion years more to work on superluminal flight, and so they can fly here, you know, so they can come and go. You know, you don't have to get really super complicated about the whole thing.

You know, this is sort of like a bus transport operation going on here, and they're coming and going. And they've set up bases here on our planet. And our planet is one of the comparatively few planets that actually gestates life. And it's a valuable resource. Life is a valuable resource. Life is a valuable resource, that they take life from our planet and they plant it in other star systems and stuff, you know, that this is going on. I mean, it sounds remarkable. Of course it does. But the bottom line is it's a pretty simple, you know, Occam's razor explanation for what it is that's going on. Now, there's a lot of other things that are conflated with it.

How so? You know, for example, you know, Marian apparitions and people believing that they see angels and people, they see Bigfoot, you know, there's all kinds of other things going on that are strange, that are anomalous situations that are going on, you know? And some people think there are such things as ghosts, you know, that people's... Paranormal stuff. Yeah, paranormal stuff. And what they do is they conflate this with what is basically a comparatively prosaic

event that's really going on here, you know? And so we're focusing on this one. You know, this is an extraordinary event that's taking place. It's a trans-historic event. It's our journey into the stars. It's our becoming part of a galactic civilization. And there are lots of other of these things going on around. And I don't disparage those things, but I just say, please, spare, the Skinwalker Ranch, you know, and Bigfoot and all these things.

It's a distraction. What I'm saying is that you just stay focused on these things that, you know, I've interviewed dozens and dozens and dozens of people about this other phenomenon. And it's pretty straightforward what's going on. You know, 40% of the people that you interview talk about being telepathically warned about nuclear weapons, that this is going to destroy the life-generating capacity of your planet. You're going to destroy your entire species. And it goes beyond governments to what you said earlier, and we kind of got off it, but it's kind of, it's perfect to tie the bow altogether here. You know, you're talking about religions too. You're talking about any cultural organizations that could exist around the world that have some sort of belief system. They all have to get on board with whatever disclosure will happen here. You said something about, you've been to the Vatican. Did you say you

went into the Vatican archives? No, no, I've talked to, I've talked to Johan. I've talked to Johan Ix, who runs the archives now, because I've been over there a number of times. And so I, he came to see me the last time I was over there and wanted me to write an article, a letter to the editor of the New York Times recommending that they open the Vatican archives on Pope Pius XII, who's the one that signed the Concordat with the Nazis, you know, and all that. Because they want to be able to get a look at that and allow researchers to look at that. You read Gerald Posner's book, Vatican Bankers? Yeah.

Yeah. Wild shit. Yeah. You know, it's all this stuff about Roberto Calvi and Sindona, and I know all those guys. You know, I was the one who was supposed to interview Cardinal Sindona, or Cardinal Marcinkas. They were thinking of allowing him to leave the Vatican. They didn't, ultimately, but I was supposed to debrief him as the Jesuits, the Jesuit headquarters. So I know all about those guys and Propaganda Due

and Lucio Gelli and that whole crowd, Propaganda Due, the 33rd Degree Masonic Lodge. I spend all our time focusing on these things. That's for another podcast. We'll be here all night if we do that. But just in general, do you think within the vatican archives which is basically like some of the most historical religious stuff that could that it could exist in the world and is also run by something that is effectively like the world's first

intelligence organization being the vatican yeah like do you think they're they're holding back a lot of information that could be contradictory to some of their beliefs that involve extraterrestrials in those archives? It's not exactly contradictory to their beliefs, other than the false assertions that they developed during the Middle Ages, where they tried to pretend that Jesus was some absolutely unique event that, you know, that this was more than he was a mutation of what's happening in our human family, that we're evolving teleologically, these other skills. And other adepts and other religions have displayed the same kind of siddha, you know, of being able to materially manifest things, levitate, levitate, heal people with their hands, etc. These are qualities that our human family has, and they're going to have to come clean about that. But I'm sure that they have information about the UFO histories that they have, because I asked for it. And when Johan called me in and asked me to write this letter to the editor of the New York Times about Pius XII, he said, you know,

if there's anything I could ever do for you, I said, you know what I want you to do for us because I've already written to you before. He said, yeah, what else? What else? He says, that one isn't going to work right now. So he hasn't agreed to let me see the stuff yet. It's going to be interesting to see how they come around with it. Yeah, the church is going to land on his feet.

Francis is the first Jesuit in history that's been the pope now, and he's been working very, very hard to try to bring them up into the 21st century. This is a very, very hard to try to bring them up into the 21st century. This is a very, very major issue, though. But the statement that they made is an opening for the conversation that we have to have. Well, you said earlier that religion, the word religion comes from religare. Religare. Relinking. Relinking. And then the word for intellect comes from intellectus?

Intellectus. The ability to distinguish the difference between. Right. So distinguishing the difference between to like separate out ideas and then relinking intellect, religion, science, religion. Science is something we associate with imagery of test tubes and math and shit like that. Religion is something we associate with imagery of test tubes and math and shit like that. Religion is something we associate with Neil, Stan, pray to God, whatever. But at their core, they're both trying to figure out whatever laws or known ideas exist within our world or by extension our universe to get to the very core meaning of life. And so it's very strange that throughout our human history and our little speck here in the galaxy, those two things have found a way to constantly be at war when in reality, they are intertwined completely by word and everything.

It's part of the projection of the dialectic. It's the second paradigm worldview. It's rooted in the second chakra. It's a whole chakra energy thing of kind of setting up bipolar aspects of reality. You know, good guys versus bad guys, red team. I mean, look at the training that we get here in our country. This intense, I mean, we put individual human beings in cages and have them fight until one of them, you know, gets knocked unconscious. You know, we have a red team and blue team in football, where they smash into each other as hard as they can, fighting over a ball going up and down the field or bouncing a ball down and sticking it in the basket, baseball

whack. You know, we have, there's an incredible training that goes on in the second paradigm of this dialectical binary bifurcation of reality. And what it is is a projection onto our culture of an experience that we experience deep in the center of our intellect. And our intellect is what has given us the sense that we're separate and apart from everything else, you know, that we're riding around up here behind our eyeballs, kind of looking out on the rest of the world, and we're trying to figure out how to get control over it and how to manipulate it and how we can have a binary relationship with it, you know, and

it's a very intense trap that we're caught in here, you know, and we've got to unplug this particular second chakra, and we've got to kind of open up our sacral chakra and open up our heart chakra. This is all known. There are scientific techniques to do this. You know, the Buddhists know about it. The Hindus know about it. You know, we've got to get that information shared over back into the Catholic laity. The people know about it, the Hindus know about it. We've got to get that information shared over back into the Catholic laity. The people know about it in the monasteries. I mean, there's all kinds of these monastic monks that kind of levitate and do all these weird things in the monasteries. And these are the ones that kind of make observations about ethics and moral because they're at a higher level of

consciousness. And so this is kind of the engine behind the kind of theology of the church, etc. So the Jesuits have a lot of communication that goes on with the Trappists, for example. The Trappists are the monastic group that do a lot of the meditation and stuff. The Jesuits have a whole different form of meditation with the Ignatian spiritual exercises that we do, you know, that are different than the Buddhist type of meditation. But, you know, I came in under Pedro Arrupe. Pedro Arrupe was the superior general of the Jesuits when I was there, you know, and he was an avid anti-fascist, you know, Spanish Basque, a surgeon, medical doctor, actually, who became a Jesuit priest

back in the late 1920s, and he was preaching from the pulpit against Franco in Mussolini. Oh, yeah. In Hitler, and they actually put out a contract to have him killed. And it turns out one of the three guys that was assigned to the team to kill Pedro Arrupe felt so bad about it that he went to confession. Confess, he said, I feel like terrible for having been ordered to kill this priest. And so the guy says, like, what priest is this? And he says, it's this Pedro Arrupe guy that's going around, you know, condemning, you know, Mussolini and Franco. And so the priest, then after the confession, he goes to his bishop and said, I got a real problem here. I've got a guy in a confession

saying that they're going to try to kill this Pedro Arrupe, you know? And so they called the provincial, the bishop called the provincial and said, you know, there's a team that's going to try to kill Pedro Arrupe. You've got to get him out of here. And so they took him out of Spain and they put him in a monastery. And it turns out that it was a Buddhist monastery where they hit him out. And Pedro became a Buddhist monk. And actually, the monastery where they had him hidden was in Hiroshima. Oh, my God. And he was there when we dropped the bomb on Hiroshima.

He was up in the mountains. And he lived? Well, he was up in the hills and the mountains. And it knocked in the monastery and caved it in. But when he woke up, the first thing he saw was the clock all frozen in time. And he crawled out from the wreckage and brought the monks, brought the other monks down into Hiroshima and helped lead the people out from under the mushroom cloud. That's true. That's Pedro Arrupe of the Jesuit order. And he led them back up into the hills.

And as a medical doctor, attended to all these people and became dedicated to trying to eliminate nuclear weapons. And so he, when John XXIII convened the Second Vatican Council in 1960, he asked Pedro Arrupe to be the head of the Committee on Ecumenical Relations with other religions, because he was a Buddhist monk as well. And so what he did was there in Rome when the previous superior general died of the Jesuits. And so that John XXIII recommended Pedro to be the new head of the Jesuit order, which is usually the kiss of death, because they'll never pick a guy to be the head of the Jesuits who's handpicked by the Pope. And so he had no chance of winning, except that Cardinal Viau, who was the Secretary of State under Pius XII, who signed the concordat with the fascists, who was a fascist, a vichy French fascist guy. So Cardinal Viau went to the conclave of the Jesuit provincials

that had all been called into Rome to pick a new superior general. He kept going around to them, buttonholing them and saying, you can't vote for this Arrupe guy, he's a communist. He opposed Franco. And they all started saying, oh, really? And so they started saying, well, maybe we better have another look at this guy. And they turned around and they chose him to be the new superior general of the Jesuits. This is 1960, 62 actually.

And then you come in. So they come back to the Jesu, which is just like half a block away from the Vatican Basilica, you know, the big Jesuit headquarters. And all hundreds of provincials come in waiting to have a little soiree, you know, drinking whiskey and having hors d'oeuvres and sitting and meeting the guy. And they come into the Jesu and all the furniture is gone. And all they have is like a hundred Zafu pillows all sitting there waiting for the provincials. And here's Pedro sitting in kind of this Zen meditation waiting for them. And they all come in and they have to take off their shoes and sit down on these Zafu pillows. And when they get there, he kind of opens his eyes like this and he says,

I have been and I've seen the end times, he said. He said, you know, we are on the brink of thermonuclear destruction of our entire planet. He said, and our job as the largest order in the Catholic Church and assigned from 1547 to reform the Catholic Church, our job is to daily, daily take steps to disassemble the structural sources of injustice, both in Western civilization and in Eastern civilization. And this is going to be your obligation every single day, equal to your obligation to preach the Mass every day.

And he gave it right to him, just like that. And that was Pedro. And Pedro Arrupe became the head of the Superior General. And he's the one that was in charge when John Kennedy decided that he was going to try to disassemble the nuclear warheads along with Khrushchev. And that's the one who helped broker getting John XXIII to be the guy who was going to broker that deal to get rid of these nuclear weapons. And that's what we've got to do. I mean, this is a key thing that we're going to have to save our human family from this one-tenth of one percent of the

human family that has decided that they're going to use thermonuclear threats to destroy the entire world to maintain their continued privileged access to these strategic raw materials. That we know this is what's going on on the planet and that we've got to take steps to undo this and we've got to use every single tool that we have in the democratic system while we still have it to organize our people, educate our people, mobilize our people, you know, get a bill like this passed, get the right people put on that panel and start to disclose this information right away so we can prepare our people and we can take the measures necessary to disassemble those nuclear warheads. We've got to do this like right away.

Otherwise we're going to have an intervention. We're going to have an intervention and the people are not ready for this intervention yet because they've been denied the truth of even existing. We've got to do both things. We've got to educate the people, let them know that this is true, take every measure that we can to disassemble the nuclear warheads and prepare our people for a potential intervention, which is in the offing right now.

They've got huge amounts of stuff going on in Sedona right now. They've got like, they saw 20 of these major triangles arise coming out of Sedona just last week, all with the United States military transports all around them. know so there's something really going on something's going on something's going on and people better get ready for it well danny sheehan to be continued this has been a wild two days two great podcasts

together i really appreciate you making the time to do this twice and you blew my mind with some things so i know a lot of people out there are getting their mind blown too. You are the founder of the New Paradigm Institute and also the Romero Institute, which you are a part of both. So we will have those links down below. But thank you so much for sharing so much today and we'll have to do this again, sir.

Yeah, just get people just to contact us. It's the newparadigminstitute.org. You know, they can become part of the Citizens for Disclosure. We're going to have teams in every one of the 435 congressional districts. It's going to be extremely exciting. You know, they can become members of the New Paradigm Institute. You know, they can become subscribers for it. You know, just have them get in touch with us. Will do. Okay. All righty, everybody. You know what it is. Give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace. Thank you guys for watching the episode. Before you leave, please be sure to hit that subscribe button and smash that like button on the video. It's a huge help. And also, if you're over on Instagram, be sure to follow the

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