Julian Dorey Podcast - #260 - Evolution Scientist: UFOs, God & the Greatest Time Travel Mystery | Dr. Michael Masters

Episode Date: December 17, 2024

(***TIMESTAMPS in description below) ~ Dr. Michael Masters is a professor of biological anthropology at Montana Technological University in Butte, Montana. His current research program centers on hominin evolutionary anatomy, human variation, archaeology, biomedicine, and investigating the UFO phenomenon. PATREON https://www.patreon.com/JulianDorey  FOLLOW JULIAN DOREY INSTAGRAM (Podcast): https://www.instagram.com/juliandoreypodcast/   INSTAGRAM (Personal): https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey/   X: https://twitter.com/julianddorey  MICHAEL'S LINKS IG: https://www.instagram.com/morphotime/?hl=en X: https://x.com/morphotime?lang=en BOOK: https://shorturl.at/61jet LISTEN to Julian Dorey Podcast Spotify ▶ https://open.spotify.com/show/5skaSpDzq94Kh16so3c0uz   Apple ▶ https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/trendifier-with-julian-dorey/id1531416289  ****TIMESTAMPS**** 0:00 - Michael Masters Extra-Tempestral Theory, Anthropology Interests , Methodist Church 08:49 - Michael’s Fathers UFO Encounter, Extra-Tempestral Idea, UAP Task Force & Religion 15:00 - Future Humans Theory Explained, Alien Eyes Bigger Theory, Height Evolutionary Connection to Aliens 28:43 - D***-less Aliens Made By Humans, Alien Abduction Story (Armored Grey), 90% of Abductions  35:35 - Travis Walton Case (Short Greys & Hybrids) 42:47 - Modern Humans & Contact w/ Alien Beings (Contracts/Human Testing), Biblical Ezekiel Story 52:06 - Future Humans Leading Planned UFO Disclosure, Congresses Knowledge on Aliens/UFOs 01:03:55 - Sense of Looming Cataclysm Event (Too Disruptive), Lack of Caring about UFO Subject 01:12:43 - Issue w/ UFO Twitter & Cultish Behavior 01:17:24 - Michael’s Ontalogical Shock & Inward Self Reflective Period, Telepathic Conversation w/ Beings)  01:40:05 - UFO Pinned Down Individual, Crazy Telepathic Communication 01:47:54 - Conversation with Wife, Creative Unlocking Pathways 02:01:23 - Michael Tells Story of Creating Book, Michael’s UFO Experiences  02:22:11 - Time Traveling/Future Human Theory Breakdown, Interdimensional Theory 02:33:11 - What is Time, Simulation Theory 02:41:07 - God Question 02:52:47 - Anthropology Community Around Michael’s Future Humans Theory CREDITS: - Host & Producer: Julian D. Dorey - In-Studio Producer & Editor: Alessi Allaman - https://www.youtube.com/@alessiallaman Julian Dorey Podcast Episode 260 - Michael P. Masters Music by Artlist.io Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Michael P. Masters, welcome to Jersey. Thank you so much, Julian. It's great to be here with you. It's great to have you, and it's also like, it's always a little intimidating when everyone refers to somebody by their full name with the middle initial. It's always like when people have been asking for me to bring you on, it never like bring on mike masters it's bring on michael p masters i'm like oh it's funny i played with the guy i uh played keys with him and he'd always introduce me as michael paul masters and be like man i wish i had three names how do i have three names i didn't do this to myself you know hey it makes you a very serious guy i guess yeah i mean i did write it out there was another michael masters when I started being a public figure of sorts.

And he was some banker or something. So I was like, well, if I add DePaul, then at least, you know, easier to find. It's a search engine thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. But you have posited a very, very fascinating theory that is often discussed within ufology these days and you're kind of at the forefront of it, which is the extra-tempestrial model essentially. Yeah. Nailed the pronunciation by the way.

I did. People don't always do that, but that was perfect. I'm so glad because I was saying it in the mirror this morning. I was like extra-tual i know and i was trying to do something good i thought totally backfired where i like i wanted to keep the extra and the estriol you know and just take out tear which means earth add which means time and then i thought it would be easy and flowy and everybody would know what it means and it didn't work at all so you you had like, the intentions were good. The intentions were great. Latin was there. Yeah, yeah.

Latin was spot on, you know, take out Earth, put in time, outside of time. Failed miserably. Well, in Jersey, we'll just call them fucking future humans. I like it. How's that? That's what I should have gone with to start with, man. Yeah. All right.

Where were you five years ago? That would have been useful. Yeah, yeah. Stick with me. I'll brand it for you. Yeah, appreciate that. But your realm, the way you got into this is very fascinating because you're not just like someone who's researched UFOs forever and stuff, which I've talked with very interesting guys in the space with that. But you are quite literally a biological anthropologist.

So you're a serious dude. You studied this in college, and you were just telling me off air that you actually got into anthropology because you were interested in UFOs and aliens? Yeah, yeah, I know. It's kind of weird. And it seemed weirder when you asked me if I knew any other people that had done it in that direction. But yeah, no, it started when I was eight or nine years old and had this question pop in my head. It was actually a really sort of formative moment. I talk about the beginning of both of my first two books, just so people have the origin story, because it's kind of the question I get asked the most, how'd you get into this? You know, how does an anthropologist get interested in UFOs? But like you mentioned, it was the opposite.

I was interested in UFOs because of this moment where i walked into the living room and whitley streber's book was facing out communion the classic 1987 uh book about his experience and uh yeah had this sort of like like light and a different kind of awareness sort of a weird meditative state of sorts and then this image pop in my head of an early hominin, chimpanzee-like form, modern human, and then the quintessential alien on the cover of the book. And with that, the question, could they be us? Could we be related? Could this form be our future selves coming back through time to study their past? And I think I was eight, nine years old at the time. So that idea, you know, did it

come from me? Did it come from somewhere else? Regardless of its origins, it put me on this path to try to understand if they could be us, being aware of selection bias, confirmation bias, all the things that could come with trying to research a question with that in mind. But one of the best things about science is that it forces you to check all of those things. And it forces you to have an open mind to other possibilities, but to still gather all the data you need to address something like that. Yeah. And do you think that being such a young age like that, you kind of have that childlike wonder, obviously, where things aren't necessarily yet all answered

for you you're asking what that's a damn good question yeah you're right because i mean rolling with the whole confirmation by a selection bias thing like a lot of people impose that on me now like you're the future human guy you must think that's the whole explanation no i don't i've said it a million times but i still get accused of that it's like i still have a very open mind all these possibilities, and I definitely don't think this explains all of the phenomenon. I think it does check a lot of boxes, and it should be taken seriously. It should be on the table with other explanations,

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Yeah. But yeah, that's a great point is that maybe at a young age a very malleable mind it's interesting that happened around that age too because so many people seemingly are abducted beginning around age eight or nine really uh a lot of people have sort of some transformational experience it's also interestingly i believe the time that you can enter communion in the catholic church or eight yeah so it's it's like and that's supposed to be the time that you can enter communion in the Catholic church or eight. Yeah. So it's, it's like, and that's supposed to be the time that you have agency. You have the will to look at things and ask questions under thing, understand things in a broader perspective, as opposed to just,

we're going to tell you that that's this God and forget everything else. So I think, um, it's maybe not a coincidence that that's when this happened to me too. Did you have any like religious background as a kid? Yeah, big time. So I was raised, well, initially Methodist. And then he probably wouldn't like me talking about this, but we got a female pastor, and that was not okay. So we went to a Church of Christ, which was more fundamentalist, kind of conservative. Oh, wow.

Yeah. It was my first taste of misogyny in the society we live in. But, no, it was, yeah. And then it kind of got darker from there. Not darker, just a lot more conservative and, like, you know, women's places in the kitchen and black people were a separate creation of God. Like, I'm not saying this was the belief in my household per se. But that's what the pastor was telling you.

Well, that's what a lot of the people in the congregation and in that particular denomination believed. And yeah, some of that did come through. I did hear stuff like that as a kid. But yeah, but I don't know. I guess it didn't necessarily play into this. This was more of a question that was outside of any lead me into this area of study and to initially study physics and astronomy and then to switch to biological as studied. And that turned out to be accurate. There are people looking at the craft. There are people advocating that these may be time machines. But there aren't a lot of people focusing on our evolutionary trajectory and what may indicate that they are us based on those long-term evolutionary trends. Quick question to go back to the religion though minus the the cultural brainwashing i guess like some of those things that they were trying to beat into you that you just mentioned when you look at the core part of

like being in the christian faith and you know reviewing the bible and stuff like that you're going through this as a child where simultaneously at eight or nine you have your first kind of like oh my god did we come from something else here? What's up guys? If you haven't already, please smash that subscribe button and hit that like button on the video. And if you don't have time to watch this episode right now, I'd really appreciate it if you saved it to your watch later playlist on YouTube. Finally, if you'd like to follow me on Instagram or X, those links are in my description below did did you have did you struggle with the idea of like what you thought of vis-a-vis say future human alien side versus what religion said there was

god out there was there was there a clash of those two beliefs for you or did you lean all one way yeah that's a great question. No, not for me personally, but within the question of religion in my household, there was tremendously. For instance, just to make sure, because what initially got me interested in this, or I guess maybe coincidentally or synchronistically, right before I had that experience with Whitley's book, I'd overheard my dad talking about a UFO encounter that he had had in the Amish country of Northeast Ohio, where I grew up. He was a veterinarian. He crested this hill. He had a colleague with him. It was like two in the morning. He used to have to go out on these late night calls and this guy was training or something.

I don't know why he was with him because it's not very common for him to have somebody with them. But he described this glowing ball of light, which in Amish country is weird because there's not lights, a lot of lights for obvious reasons. But this thing was about 200 meters away, just kind of hovering on the horizon, shot toward them, hovered above their truck for, I don't know, 10, 15 seconds, went back to where it was, and then shot up at tremendous speed. So there's a lot of variables there that would indicate that this is not a prosaic type of thing. So I heard him explaining this, and it sort of piqued my interest. But then to make sure I had the details of the story right, because like I said, I've been on this sort of journey since I was a young child in college i think it was my freshman

year i interviewed him about it and he told the story exactly the same you know all the details were the same but then came the religious interpretation this is the devil leading you away from god this is not something we should be talking about it's evil it's demonic and it's gonna you know lead you down this path that's away from God and is therefore problematic. And then I also found that that extends to the broader community where a lot of people that are in the Christian camp are not a big fan of the extraterrestrial idea or UFOs and aliens because that's implicit in it for a lot of people

because that's been the dominant mantra for so long because they believe there's one creation of God here on Earth. because that's implicit in it for a lot of people, because that's been the dominant mantra for so long, because they believe there's one creation of God here on Earth. Full stop. So because of that, aliens on a different planet doesn't fit with their preconceived notions of the biblical creation story, and therefore is something else, and we shouldn't talk about it. So in my second book, I was like, hey, y'all, this is still the same creation. This is

still God's creation here on this planet, just future God's creations coming back to hang out with past God's creations. So this extra tempestual idea should be well-loved within the Christian community because it still fits within that worldview. It doesn't bring in an outside creation, but it's just different children of God interacting through time. Got it. So let's go ahead. That hasn't worked. What?

That hasn't necessarily worked. That appealed to them for that extra tempestual thing to just... To who? Wait, you lost me. The Christians. I thought if I said that, they'd be like, oh cool man no that hasn't that's all i was trying to say it was a swing and a miss to to say the least um maybe it resonated with a couple people but i think they still just ignore the question so that's all i was trying to well i think it's always difficult difficult. We talk about religion and we talk about belief systems and I'd say there's religion in many things these days.

Shit, people find religion in politics. Once people form a core belief that they kind of stake their meaning to, the idea that even 1% of it could be not what they thought it was yeah is something that is foreign to them they're like no that's not possible and i think that the people who have the most peace from who i've spoken with over the years who are religious are those who are kind of resigned to to the themes and the goodness but not necessarily all the quote unquote facts that are thrown. Yeah. Well, I think we are coming to a head. And this has come up a couple of times.

I was in a meeting with one of the congressmen involved in this UAP task force and his chief of staff and some other colleagues of mine and just a small little meeting to talk about some of these things. One thing that came up, I think that hearing's today, by the way. I think it's happening like right now. Sorry. Am I not allowed to talk about when things are happening one one thing that came oh i think that hearing's today by the way i think it's happening like right now yeah sorry am i not allowed to talk about when things are happening no you can okay cool i'm gonna put this out in like a month okay um anyway so we're talking about like how they wanted to know what we thought this hearing should be like or how it should go or what types of things should be addressed and the question of religion came up

because it's obviously a dominant thing in our society. And I was saying, you know, and my colleagues as well who study this more than I do. My last book was about this question, but they're like theologists and psychologists who study belief systems. But it seems like to start, there's different baselines we have to build before we can get to this overarching question of religion and how it may relate to the UFO phenomenon throughout antiquity. But it seems like we need to start with, is this real? And I think we've been working at that since 2017, New York Times article, yada, yada. And then the DOD acknowledging the reality of these craft uh fravor and graves talking about what they saw in dietrich too um and then once we've established that this is real then we can start getting into theory a little bit which is why i've been coming

into the conversation more recently because that's kind of the only thing i can contribute is this theoretical approach bringing in knowledge from these different academic fields to try to build a case for this extra-tempestual model, but also others. How do they fit with each other? And then we can establish a framework in theory, and then we can get into implications. What are the implications of this if it's real and if they are coming from outer space or they're coming from our future or they're coming through dimensions or they're living underground, crypto terrestrials, then we can start to look at implications of this. We can start to potentially understand their intent through looking at patterns. And then that's where this issue of religion comes in. Maybe a lot of these things that we do believe in a literal biblical sense did happen, but they didn't fit within the box of people at that time. So they created these

ideas around them and try to explain them the best way they could. And we're still trying to do that today. We're still trying to fit the reality of this phenomenon into the framework of religious belief systems. It doesn't neatly fit. So a lot of people say, fuck that. I don't want to have anything to do with it. Other people are like, well, this must be demons. It must be demonic. Like my dad, he's like, well, this is a thing, but you probably believe it because he saw it. This is a thing, but it's this. It's this thing that I already understand. So I can put it in the smaller box within the bigger box. So he does bring the box in, but I think it's going to come to the point where the two boxes are one, where this UFO phenomenon, kind of your original question, I guess, was how did they fit together for me? I think we're all going to be at that point where the UFO phenomenon and historically and prehistorically, and then our belief systems are going to merge into one thing. And that was kind of what I was trying to do with this last book is show how those are likely to come together. Yeah. Now, maybe it would be helpful just for everyone out there to follow along, to break down.

Like you've obviously gone through some of it today, but to break down once and for all the extra-tempestual model and what exactly it means and how the time travel could work, if you understand what I'm saying. Yeah, absolutely. That's always a great place to start because, yeah, like I was listening to this book about the Akashic Record recently, and it was like the third chapter where she finally defined what she meant by the Akashic Record. I'm like, you know, that really would have helped in chapter one because I had no idea what the hell you're talking about. So yeah,

that's a great, great place to start. So the idea, as we sort of touched on previously, is just that we have had a long evolutionary history on this planet. We've evolved culturally. We've evolved physiologically. And if those same dominant trends continue into the future, we're likely to look like, morphologically, and we're likely to have technology similar to what we see in these beings that are showing up now throughout recent history, throughout the prehistoric past, arguably. So what I mostly focused on and what my PhD research was in is craniofacial evolutionary anatomy. Craniofacial evolutionary anatomy. Yeah. So I mentioned these dominant trends. The most dominant ones are an increase in brain size, what we call encephalization,

but also a change in the shape of the brain. So it got about three times larger compared to a chimpanzee or earliest hominid ancestors. The ones people are most familiar with are actually about halfway through the australopithecines like Lucy, but you can go back another three million years before that. But throughout most of that time, we're really just evolving our post-cranial anatomy, neck down, standing upright. How are we adapting to this new form of locomotion, bipedalism, the trait that actually defines the hominin lineage? But after about the time of the Australopithecines beginning with Homo habilis, about two and a half million years

ago. Then we see the brain start to increase in size. It moves out over the eyes and it increases medial lateral. Homo habilis, I'm not remembering that one. Where was the origin there? So you've got the Australopithecines. So the gracile forms became us, the robust forms died out. So you have Australopithecus, Afarensis, Afrikanis, and Anamensis. And then they eventually, one of them or some of them, eventually evolved into Homo habilis. They were the first to make and use stone tools, which is why we call them that. It means handyman, which was a really important innovation that allowed our brains to get bigger. It actually contributed to our brains getting bigger because there's this feedback loop. And our culture, our new abilities allowed our brains to get bigger.

For instance, cutting meat with stone tools. We invented fire not long after that. So cooking our food allowed a reduction in our masticatory musculature. So the face could get smaller and get out of the way of the brain. And then the teeth got smaller, the chewing muscles got smaller, brain started to get bigger. And then the feedback loop comes because we think of new ways to solve problems and new ways to process our food, new ways to use fire. And so you can see the beginning of this sort of self-licking ice cream cone, this runaway brain train, as we call it, where our innovation drives new tools. Our new tools allow the brain to get bigger. And it continued like that and accelerated beginning with Homo erectus about one and a half million years ago. Our brains really started to

take off, move forward, like I mentioned, but also expand mediolaterally. It got bigger from left to right, especially in the parietal lobes um and what did we add like what segments of the brain did we add there um those are involved with motor functions uh the frontal lobe especially is involved with higher level thinking problem solving it's sort of the thing that makes us more unique relative to other animals relative to the great apes too, because they have large brains for their body size, but they're not doing the same stuff we are. But a lot of it was a shape change. It was a size change, but importantly, it also changed the shape

of our face, the size of it. So I guess I could break this down. A common example I use with dogs, you can think of a Doberman Pinscher versus a pug or a Chihuahua, where the Doberman's got a long snout, really low-sloping forehead. And then you shrink back the face, you add a forehead, and now you're looking at a Chihuahua or a Doberman or a Rottweiler, any sort of animal with that bowel plan. And you can see it across the animal kingdom. I use dogs because we did it to them in a relatively short period of time. So it's also familiar to us. People know dogs better than they know past hominid ancestors. So it's, you're just fulfilling your own egotistical dreams of saying things that people don't get, which kind of defeats the purpose. So if we think about the dogs, that's the main trend. Faces got small, heads got bigger, expanded out. And if you fast forward that, we would look very similar to these archetypal gray aliens with

the big round heads what we call neurocranial globularity and especially with the enlarged parietal lobes i mentioned those are the area where we see the the largest change in both size and shape and then also larger eyes kind of the wraparound eyes and the more reduced and retracted face why would each in why would the eyes be bigger? Yeah, that's a great question. One of my first academic papers after grad school was in a journal called Medical Hypotheses, where I laid out this theory about how these trends are likely to affect vision in a functional sense. So I was particularly looking at juvenile onset myopia, which affects a huge number of people throughout the world, but especially individuals in Eastern Asia, Southeast Asia, China, Korea, all over the place.

Upwards of 80 to 90 percent of people have nearsightedness. And it's not a huge issue today. And in this paper, I cited other people and also sort of added my own interpretation where you can see how that would happen, where you have the brain impinging itself on the eye, the face shrinking underneath it. And what you see in the myopic eye, if you imagine squishing a tennis ball from top to bottom, it squeezes out on the side. That's exactly what the myopic eye looks like. The reason we are nearsighted is because it changes the focal length from that extension of the eye out of the orbit, and it focuses light in front of the retina as opposed to on the retina, like it would in a perfectly spherical eye. That's exactly what we expect to see as the brain grows out over it, the face shrinks back, that it would sort of circumscribe

the orbit and create that distortion to the eye. So to answer your question, in this paper, I cited some other researchers that have demonstrated that the eye and the brain have a pleiotropic gene relationship, which means that when we see two different organs, we see the brain and the eyes, two separate things. They're actually controlled by the same set of genes. So they're essentially one thing. So pleiotropy just means you have different characteristics that are influenced by the same gene or set of genes. So therefore, they have the same growth and development. They have the same, in an evolutionary phylogenetic sense, they change over time together evolutionarily and throughout growth and development. And the other thing is that the eye grows out of the brain. It grows out of the

telencephalon during fetal ontogeny, which is a bunch of big words that just mean it goes boop and it comes out of that developing brain. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. So they are essentially the same organ. So if the brain gets bigger, we would expect that the eye would get bigger too, to answer your question. So we see them as two different things, but essentially they're one organ. So an increase in one would, we'd expect to see an increase in the other. Unfortunately, we can't study the eye because it's soft tissue. It decomposes. It goes away.

We can study the orbit. But there's also a lot of other things in the orbit. There's rectus muscles. There's fat. But we can get a sense of those changes over time with regard to brain, eye. We can see the orbit changing. We can see how that shifts. And it was very, even 30,000 years ago with some ancestors

and the Cro-Manyan people, a lot of your listeners have probably heard of them. They had these sort of low square orbits, and then we started to get more increase, superior and inferiorly, top to bottom. Getting into the weeds a little too much here probably just lost a couple of your listeners but um it's very interesting beyond that um there's just a number of other things too our bodies have changed we've sort of gotten um smaller there's been a decrease in robusticity over the last 30 000 years we have Yeah. And has that – quick question. I'm sorry because like we get lost in timelines where when you think 10 years ago, you can relate to it, right?

And then you think 50 years ago, you can't relate to it 100 years. It's almost like time gets exponential in how we appreciate it. Do you understand what I mean? look at something that objectively compared to the history of the earth is not long ago but for me is a long time ago which would be 150 years ago i don't have the numbers on me offhand but i know like human beings were smaller in height and weight on average at that time so are we saying that the weight has changed the height and weight has changed down over time but it's not necessarily linear sometimes it goes a little lower and then comes back up higher. Yeah, that's a fantastic question. And you've framed it perfectly too, because we see both. We do see an increase and decrease in height

evolutionarily. Because yeah, when we're talking about these australopithecines, they're about three and a half feet tall, really diminutive, tiny creatures that got preyed on by all kinds of different animals. And then we started to get larger. We this uh fossil called knmwt 15 000 it was a homo erectus you don't even know that's just his catalog number that's it's that's if you wanted to find it in the museum kenya national museum it's found in westerkana it's the 15 it sounds like a bond villain's weapon but it would be a cool band name too. Yeah. I mean, nobody would ever come see it because they couldn't remember it.

It's almost as bad as Extra Tempesture, for God's sakes. But no, that's the catalog number. But it was a Homo erectus from 1.5 million years ago. And this dude was big. Like he was only 11 years old when he died. It's thought he died from a cavity and it created an infection. Oh, wow. And we can cure these things now pretty easily, but they didn't have dental medicine 1.5 million years ago.

So homeboy died at 11 years old. And so we can project what he would have looked like if he got to be to a mature age. And he would have been about 6 he got to be to a mature age and he would have been about six foot one strong body build uh the post cranial morphology is almost identical to ours there's there's differences you know it's more similar to a neanderthal of sorts um can you i'm sorry to get into the weeds but can you explain how it's more similar to a neanderthal just because of the robusticity because neanderthals were like hefty. Their bones were big. They were built for a cold environment.

Even though this individual, Turkana Boy, as he's known, which is way easier than K&M WT 15,000, even though he was 11, he was still beefy, stocky. But that 6'1 height, if that's an accurate projection, indicates we're already within and above the range of modern humans. I think the average today for males is about 5'9 or 5'10 or something, depending on what part of the world you're in. With that said, there is vacillation, what we call diachronic changes too. And that's one thing that one of my first research projects at Ohio University was to study people's occupations and changes over about a hundred year period. And there's massive change. You look at the depression, people got a lot shorter. Come out of the depression,

there's a boom time, people get taller. And you can see it within this. Yeah, there's a guy named, I think Richard Steckle is his name at Ohio State who did way more research on this than we did. We cited him a lot, but we were also contributing to it. And yeah, it's crazy. Like it happens fast. You know, when we go through a depression or recession and people are cutting back on nutrient intake, I mean, that's affecting their children instantly. And then those kids grow up and they're shorter. So there's diachronic change. There's also evolutionary change. But with regard to future humans, you know, some are described as short greys, whether those are our descendants or avatars or sort of biological droids. It's hard to say because some don't have genitalia, kind of need genitalia to make more babies, unless something's making you. And I kind of think that's the case with these ones.

Something's making you. And I kind of think that's the case with these ones. Something's making you? Yeah, the dickless ones are probably made by a future human who no longer is making robots. Like it Elon Musk making something that needs oiled and breaks down mechanically all the time. But it's probably the extension of our gene engineering into the future where you just create something that can do all of this stuff for you. Send them in first to get somebody, if you're abducting an individual and they're, you know, big, scary person, send them in first. And they're more expendable because there's something you created for this purpose. And if you look at Whitley Strieber's account, he sort of describes these small beans as

the muscle behind the operation. For people out there who haven't seen Danny Jones' podcast with Whitley, which was a great episode, can you just explain, you've mentioned him a couple of times today, can you just explain who he is and what his experience was? Yeah, phenomenal individual. Brief summary, he had a cabin in upstate New York, had some strange experiences with people at his house. So there were other witnesses, lights would come on. I thought his roof was on fire. And then we went to investigate and light turns off. Not long after that, he had a shotgun by his bed, armed the whole house with an alarm system

because he was freaked out. Like he knew something was happening. And then when he was first taken, he sat up in bed and he sees this this small creature like what i was talking about sort of the big head small face but wearing a kind of armor and it runs toward him and all of a sudden he's asleep and then he ends up um outside he's interestingly sitting in a little beam of light there's snow all, but there's no snow where they're sitting. And it's cold, but it's not as cold as it would be, you know, outside in this situation. But there he starts to see other types as well. He's always with the muscle of the operation, as he describes it. But as he ascends into the ship, he starts to encounter a woman,

a female presence. And what's interesting is in these cases, even when these beings are seemingly so different from us, we can still sense kind of their soul or their personality. Something like a gender almost transcends the physical form to some extent. But he's in contact with this woman, and then he goes on to have a lot of other experiences, even a sex with her once that he writes about in a different book that he co-authored with Jeffrey Kripal called The Supernatural, I think it is. But importantly, he sees different forms for different types on the ship.

And that's a really common thing across various experiencer accounts is that there are different forms oftentimes working together sometimes even with people just normal everyday people in military garb like air force uniforms so he's seeing things that range from literally human looking to grays to mantis or stuff like that i don't know if he ever described anything like that some of them he described as looking oriental that they had um eyes face everything just like ours but essentially um i think he said they were slanted so they looked like ours but a little bit more oriental or what would say east asian looking. And then, yeah, the woman, the taller woman, to get back to height, she was taller, had grayish, gray alien type characteristics, but was in charge of the operation.

She had higher consciousness, telepathy. But then there were these ones that he called the muscle of the operation too that were, I've come to think, possibly manufactured. And this is, you know, obviously we can't know until we have them, and maybe we do have them, and maybe that's a part of these crash retrievals that we could go look at them and study them and see if there is a difference between ones that are reproducing themselves and ones that are created in the image of those in our future,

if they are future humans, who are making them to perform various tasks. And I would love to do that. Yeah. Let's put a pin in that because I do want to come to UFO crash retrievals later, but I want to stay with some of the experience or stuff. So you had said, I think it was in your extra tempest real book, you had said something in the range of like 90% or something like that of people who report being abducted claim it was a positive experience. Yeah. I mean, there's some qualifiers to that. Also. Well, first off, what you're referencing is the Dr. Edgar Mitchell Free Study. It's a survey of experiencers. At the time they published that in 2019, they had 3,500 individuals.

And I always try to acknowledge problems with methodologies, and there are issues with surveys. People can lie. They can distort the truth. Sometimes they don't understand what is the truth. These are people who are willing to talk. Some people are less willing to talk. So there could be inherent biases in those two. 3,500 is a decent sample size. It's the largest for something like this. But

they have added, I think they're up above 5,000 now because they're continuing the study. It's also important to talk about the sample. This is a multilingual international sample. It's not just a group of dudes from Omaha or something. It's not just a group of, you know, dudes from Omaha or something. Like it's a pretty broad sample of individuals. So we can glean something from that. And yeah, so individuals, importantly, and one of the main reasons I referenced this study is to talk about the types, like what we're talking about right now. And the majority that are seen are described as human and it's no human literally human yeah not even human looking and this was something i i sort of i i i screwed this up in my first book going my second book because i really just focused on the grays and i didn't

show just how much variation there was or i was mostly just talking about how could we get there what are some of the forces in our evolutionary past that would lead us to look like this? And obviously, you know, it'd be easy to say we live in space, we live underground, it's dark, that's why our eyes get bigger. Maybe, I don't know. But I try to stay away from speculating about those things and just focus on dominant trends that we can understand. But in this study, the top reported type was human. And then after that was the short greys that we were discussing, tall greys, and then hybrids. And what I've always pointed out- What are the hybrids again? I'm sorry.

Just a combination of the two forms. So like one example is Travis Walton. When he was taken, most likely an ambulance call because he was shocked by this craft, he wakes up in this bed with two short greys around him. Didn't have a chance to check in their pants. It'd be really interesting to know if they had genitalia or not because it might help answer this question. Are they all droids if we see the short greys or are they just creating them in their image like we do with robots now but then he he escaped he went in the control room he's pushing buttons they're like no bro don't do that because you're gonna crash our ship um and then he was approached by a man who looks just like a man you know tall blonde hair blue eyes stocky build and then encountered uh other women and men who he said had

sort of a familial connection, like they all kind of looked the same. So that would be an example of what we consider the hybrids, ones with sort of the archetypal gray alien form, but also a human form. And we can come back to that too, like that hybridization program is kind of an important aspect of all of this. I'm sorry, Michael, there there's so many things here i don't want to get lost in them but from a detailed perspective like how can we explain seeing in the same place human literally human looking and grays if based and maybe misunderstood this, but based on what you were saying earlier about over time and things changing, that would suggest that those two beings are from very different future realms. Meaning one, I'm just throwing random numbers out, one could be

200 years from now, another could be 200,000 years from now. Yeah, exactly. And I coined a term for that temporal ancestry. So we talk about geographic ancestry now, where we have people from sub-Saharan Africa that have sort of lighter body builds, darker skin, so they've evolved to the climate and the UVA light in that area, and evolved more melanin because of that. People from Africa or East Asia, rather Native Americans. So we can see snapshots of our evolutionary history now in this present time. Yes. In these cases of close contact where they see different forms with marked differences in their morphology, I think it's exactly that, like what you just said, that it's people coming back from different

times or working together from different times for likely different purposes. They may have variable reasons for wanting to come back and collect data on the human past, but they're likely all doing it at the same time to be less intrusive, to disrupt us and our timeline to a lesser extent. But what I always point out is based on the study, so you've got the human, humanoid, human-looking, human form, short greys, tall greys, hybrids. Every single one of those is an upright walking biped. That's the trait that defines our lineage. We are bipedal. And I've said a hundred times that if what's getting out of these ships is some kind of squid or octopus or spider looking creature i never would have given two shits about this because there's no connection to us but that trait alone and you

could go past that you could talk about the the tetrapod characteristics having four limbs which goes back 400 million years on this planet. 400 million. 400 million. We share that with them. Penidactyly having five digits at the end of each limb. And there's some variation there. Some say they see four, but for the most part, they have five. How do we know it's 400 million? That's so long ago. The fossil record. We can see when that four limb characteristic started. And then Darwin actually pointed out back in the mid-1800s that it makes no damn sense. Like you use the same four limbs to do all these different things.

Whales got them and bats got them and we and horses and cows and all these undulates. But it would make more sense if we just developed, you know, if an elephant had eight limbs instead of four. But we take the same four limb bowel plan from 400 million years ago and just modify it for our purposes. That shows that we evolved together. We share a common ancestry, as we say, that's a synapomorphy or shared drive characteristic of all mammals that we are tetrapods. So so importantly all walking upright all bipedal therefore we would classify them all as hominin if we are reproducing with them that's where the hybrid part comes in based on the biological classification of species concept we're the same fucking species you can't reproduce with

something that you don't share the requisite genes with in order to make an offspring and so there's a lot that indicates that they are us just from that alone. And that's, you know, speaking of terminology, like the extraterrestrial thing, I also hate the NHI thing that we've developed, non-human intelligence. Oh, right. And it's meant to get away from extraterrestrial. It's meant to get away from alien. It's meant to have a more general term.

Because extraterrestrial pigeonholes the conversation. And I used to hate that term because it was like, oh, they must be from outer space. And you do still hear people say that, but to a lesser extent than they do now because everybody switched to NHI, which is great because it doesn't say extraterrestrial. But it also implicitly implies that they're not human. It's in the damn term. They even used that in the Dr. Edgar Mitchell study. They said, when you're on the ship, did you have contact with the non-human intelligence? First answer is human.

So even with that bias in the question, they still said they were human. Do you think that there's potentially a purposeful reason for that? I do. Yeah. there's a potentially a purposeful reason for that i do yeah um i i do think that it allows them to tell the truth that there's no evidence of a non-human intelligence there's no evidence of extraterrestrials i think they even did that in the arrow report i think they use that exact terminology and a lot of people write me like bro did you read this the way they phrased it that's not a lie it's not a lie you know they

might be telling the truth but damn that's a subtle little life or a subtle little way of telling the truth and allowing the potential reality of this to still exist yeah no i think i mean it's hard to say what the intent of these people is. And there's probably a lot of different people, different intentions working on this. But yeah, that's a very intuitive observation you had there because it could have been a lexicon thing to leave the door open. I want to go back to that example I gave a few minutes ago just to keep it simple to stay with it where I talked about the humans that are maybe from 200 years from now or 2,000 years from now, whatever I said. And then the greys that might be from 200,000 years from now, and they're both working together. My question here is doesn't that technically make us present humans and maybe even past humans the people drawing the short end of the stick?

Because they're all in on it together, but we're not. And if so why do you think that determination is made or let's throw another one in there are there potentially people who exist right now or have existed in the past century who are taking part in this stuff that have ever been reported well i think i think there are absolutely and i do think when people talk about seeing very modern humans and very modern military uniforms that that it is us and it probably has been us for a while and if you would have asked me this five years ago i'd have been like i don't know that sounds a little crazy it's a little conspiracy theory ish we're already down that

rabbit hole my friend yeah probably been down there for a while starting to get low on oxygen down here i don't know how deep we went um but then you have people like grush coming out saying oh actually we have been doing this for a while. If we're reverse engineering these things, if we're in contact with the people creating them, hypothetically, if they are from our future, then yeah. And what he talks about with the contracts that may have been made and meetings that may have happened, and they're allowed to take us and sample our genetic material for their purposes it really makes you wonder what the level of interaction is and then when you have experiencers who are also describing seeing these people in the same types of uniform we see military members

walking in now you got to wonder if people are working with them so it could be yeah okay do you think do you think that if people let's just keep it in one place if people in the pentagon were aware that maybe it's what you say and it's future humans do you think that that is part of the reason we see some of the similarities there as we do actually with your father with his experience where there's like the collins elite in the pentagon who's saying oh this is future humans so you know they're fucking with the occult or something like that and that goes against my biblical beliefs so therefore we shouldn't look at it maybe yeah i don't know i i think the people that are trying to put the ufo question in a religious box likely don't know who they are that's just my guess because i think there's a lot if you know what it is why would you have to try to cram this thing into your box of worldviews? I think it

would be easier to just open the box. And I think that's a big part of this phenomenon as a whole, is that we're all supposed to look at it, take it seriously, and widen our aperture to be able to include things that are more mysterious than what we thought was conventionally real, were allowed, or possible. And I think it's kind of been an aspect of the phenomenon the entire time. Now, potentially more than ever, because we have the possibility that this will be acknowledged as real on a mass scale. But I think if we look back through time, and even in these historical historical biblical religious accounts they're they're seemingly the the classic overused example is ezekiel but it's overused because it has a lot

of elements of a real ufo encounter very similar today they had a different way of understanding reality back then we could talk about wheels within wheels and burning embers and voices booming into their heads like now we would say teleathy, counter-rotating flywheels to add stability and the electromagnetic force to add anti-gravity capabilities, lights on the outside. These are all conventionally understood terms now. Back then they weren't. So they created this story and that story got put into a book and then, you know.

Can you explain that, the Ezekiel account there? Yeah. So it was basically what I just mentioned. He described it as humanoid form sitting on a throne, a dome above their head, a wheel within a wheel. So some sort of rotation and burning embers. And then there's apparently some sort of telepathic communication that took place what's funny is i just did um a shoot for a documentary last week and the guy who was filming it read the original description of ezekiel before all

of the translations his dad was super into this and um really was interested in a lot like what diana pasolka is doing with going back to the original versions of things but his dad had done the same thing and and his son who i met uh jesse who was doing this shoot um had read these and said bro there's way more detail like this was a fucking UFO sighting. And, you know, we get the boiled down version. It's like playing telephone through time. We have this version in the King James Bible or whatever. But I guess the original one was way more descriptive. And so, yeah, I mean, if we can include that, it would seem to indicate that it's either a similar phenomenon, potentially the same phenomenon, appearing in different times throughout the past.

And going to the future, we could see all of the variation potentially as the different forms that are existing to carry out these missions in the past, occasionally being a little more overt in their activities, potentially to have that carrot in front of us to make us question things, to acknowledge that there's things more mysterious than what we can understand, and to widen that aperture in the same way people are trying to do now in Congress, in not so much of the Collins elite, they're kind of doing the opposite. But I think we're sort of at this this culmination point where all of that carrot and sticking is leading to the place where all of the carrots

are sitting in a giant pile right in front of us and we're so close to opening the door and feasting on these delicious fruits of the the mysteries of the past do you think that there's also some weird i don't know government psyop-y type thing behind this? And I have to ask that because, you know, for so long they made the UFO phenomenon this cult-y, you know, like you were crazy if you talked about it topic for decades and decades and decades, dating back forever. And then suddenly, boom, 2017, you know what christopher mellon nothing to see here remember the mellon family's gonna walk out of the pentagon straight into new york times and say legally i'm allowed to give this to you here you go you have all these people come out i mean i've had lou elizondo in here as well it's fascinating to hear but i wonder even when i

sit across from a guy like lou how much of that is like it's an Intel app versus what's true. Yeah. That's a great way to approach it. And I think we all should because there's been disinformation for a long time. You have people like Richard Doty. I don't know much about him. I can't give his backstory. But I know I really fucked up this Benowitz guy and was meant to put misinformation and disinformation out.

And that goes back to Project Sign, Grudge, Blue Book. All of them manufactured this stigma so that we wouldn't talk about it. And it was really fucking effective. They did a great job with that. It's still hard to talk about today. There's still this lingering stigma. I was invited to give a couple lectures in university classes about this. And there's just an icky feeling when you first start doing it. Like they were really good at that. And at last, there's this cultural hangover that we're,

you know, popping aspirin trying to get rid of now, because they really allowed us to think we shouldn't be talking about this. And that stigma, that shame that we feel was manufactured, it was put in place, and we're really trying to get past that now. And yeah, 2017 was a big step forward, and there's continued to be steps forward. And I think the congressional hearings, whether we get anything out of it or not, I don't think it really matters. But what's important is that we're talking about it, and we're taking it seriously. New York Times article brought a lot of people out. That first congressional hearing, I started meeting all kinds of people that were in positions of society that you wouldn't expect them to really be openly talking about this but they're like hang on so we have these pilots top pilots well i believe uh fravor was even like the the instructor i don't know what they're called i'm not an air force or navy guy but um like a top top gun pilots who know the difference between something prosaic and

something weird saying this is a weird thing and we're telling you about this and it allowed people to take that seriously a because of who they were but b because they were under oath they were under oath saying this is real and it takes that for people unfortunately because there's so much data out there there's so much evidence but for so many folks it's going to take the government being like hey this is real you're allowed to think it's real now because we're the ones that told you it wasn't for 75 years. And it's unfortunate because we shouldn't need that. If you have an open mind, you can study this, all of the different elements of it and come to your own conclusion. But for so many people, and likely it's because there's so many other things to focus

on, we're constantly being bombarded with stimulus. There's all these distractions. It's actually pretty negative when people don't have distractions. They only focus on the UFO phenomenon too. If you've ever been on UFO Twitter, you encounter that. But I do think there's this point where we're starting to get the stick that carries the carrots getting shorter. And I've long thought that this move toward disclosure is not the government doing it, but the visitors themselves. I think they're the ones that are leading this charge toward disclosure. I don't have any evidence. It's sort of an intuitive sense I have. And from looking at all of the different aspects of what's happening and how it's been happening, I get the sense that we're reaching a point, a sort of nexus in space, time, time, space, where we are going to have broad awareness of this. And they said, catch up. Not wait up,

catch up. So I think Congress is trying to get to a point where they're not caught with their pants down, and they've put in place some broad awareness or at least presented the information in some capacity in a public forum bipartisanly which is weird as shit like what else in this world right now in this country is bipartisan other than this ufo other than this ufo that makes – There's a lot that seems to indicate that – Makes it tingle a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, I'm tingling all over right now thinking about the fact that there could be something that unites this country.

It's insane. And it's UFOs. Yeah. You know, I think that's an underappreciated aspect of this. People do talk about it, but that's crazy. It's cool. So, yeah, I don't know. I do get the sense that we're sort of being led, we as in Congress in the United States, as being led to do something ahead of something that is coming.

Yeah. So, I mean, the jokes in my head go to, so, Lou Elizondo is a future human, or people like this are a future human. I know it's not what you're saying. No, not at all. But you're saying that like the forces of that could be manipulating this type of situation to be spoken through people like that. Yeah, and I don't even like the word manipulation per se just because it does have a negative connotation. But a guiding of sorts. Historically, it was guiding away from. Now, even if they are meant to be

disseminating information, I think it's less disinformation and misinformation, which was what they were doing over the last 70 years. And now it's probably just information. But it is guiding, it is changing. But then it gets into the question, well, who are they working for? Why are they doing this? I don't know. I can't speak to that, but it does seem like there's a push. And I think it's less of a push and more of a pull from the visitors themselves. Right. My friend Jesse Michaels was actually at one of the recent hearings and yeah i love jesse the great guy but yeah so smart about this stuff so well read on all of it and the thing that annoyed him that makes me double take on some of this stuff is the fact that he was like all these congressmen have no idea what they're

talking about yeah like the most basic shit like they don't they don't have a clue so they're so easy to be and again i know you don't like the word but they're so easy to be manipulated or something like that because they don't even know where to begin with it. Like what is your experience been in like some of the private meetings with some of these guys that you've been invited into? Yeah. So two things there. One, I do think they don't know. Most people don't. I don't know either. I mean, there's so much convoluted shit involved with this. Nobody can know all of it. But there is a certain level of awareness about the historical aspects of this phenomenon that I do think anybody has access to and be discerning, of course, and obviously be aware questions considering how much space this takes up on their server. Very tiny amount of space considering everything else that they have to do in these jobs. I was really impressed by the level of awareness they did have relative to most people and relative to what I expected of them in those positions.

But you're right. The bar was low. The bar was low. But I was pleasantly surprised, not just because the bar was low, but I was like, wow, they're talking about things that actually do kind of matter. And it's not like they're just trying to get information for the first time. Clearly, some of them read up before asking these questions. And that's the meeting that we just had they wanted to have a few academics together it was the guys i published this paper with recently about crypto terrestrials crypto terrestrials yeah and and so they came

across the paper they reached out to us like hey can we have this conversation because we want to ask informed questions that's great that's trying to educate yourself ahead of something where your education can help you and the American public get better information because they took the time to learn about it first. And so that is happening. And Jesse's right. They can't know everything. And if they did, they could ask better questions. But I think they were doing okay. and hopefully with this one happening right now they're doing even better because they had more time to think about it and they had access to information that first hearing that they could then build on going into the second one um but you know more whistleblowers helps people that actually were interacting with these things

what i would love to see is them bringing the people that are actually hiding this shit in the first place, the members of the military industrial complex who have a very good reason to keep this stuff from entering the public sphere because of how disruptive it might be to their industries and how they're trying to protect their intellectual property and all of these ramifications. Again, that gets into implications, which comes after proving and what are they and what might they be and all these other things. And likely these people would be like Dave Chappelle in that skit from the 2000s, slapping the table, I'll plead the fifth. They're probably not going to say anything, but those are the people that should be sitting in front of Congress getting grilled right now because they're the ones that are hiding all of this. Why are you hiding it? What do you not want us to know? Yeah. I think it was also Jesse, when I was talking with him, he was considering what the intelligence read-in procedure was. And the thing he talked about was compartmentalization. And there was someone else I was talking about this with, but I can't remember who it was. And they said

the same thing. Stove piping is a huge problem. Yeah and stove piping yeah right so you know it'd be one thing if like this entire group you know maybe at the top of the pentagon knew everything and knew all the secrets but in reality there's all these little secret teams that meet in skiffs on one topic or two topics or something that comprise, you know, that's a great full thing comprises 10,000 things. And so you could have people who have these small little breadcrumbs where it's like, imagine if you just found a few puzzle pieces on the ground, you can't do anything with it. But if you had the full set of puzzle of pieces to the puzzle, you could build the puzzle. So what can they even reveal? Yeah, that's true. I mean, the stove piping is certainly a huge issue

regarding the way all of these things are put into different pieces that, yeah, you don't see the whole picture. That's the whole reason they do it. But yeah, that's a great extension of that, that it goes into trying to get information about it too, because you're asking somebody that does know something, but it's one small piece.

Guys, if you're still watching this video and you haven't yet hit that subscribe button, please take two seconds and go hit it right now. Thank you. I recently mentioned to this congressperson, their chief of staff, that I know someone who is a part of that same thing, and they're ready to be a whistleblower. They want to talk about it, but you're right. How much does that contribute? It's another data point, though. It does actually help them see,

oh, okay, this is happening here too. And how does it relate to this? And how does it relate to that? But still, you're not going to see the whole picture. And that's what they want. And they've done a fantastic job of keeping it that way. And yeah, kudos to them. It's impressive impressive how'd that person get in touch with you um showed up at my office actually yeah um why'd they pick you i asked them that question too. A few metaphysical reasons and a few physical reasons. But they wanted to talk to somebody about it, recognize that I could, I would take them seriously. I would listen. Um, I would understand. And I also might know people I could put them in touch with who could help them and what they were trying to do.

Um, and that's exactly what happened. Um, put them in touch with Leslie Kane, Jesse had a conversation with this individual and a few others as well um because yeah that a lot of us have a sense that something needs to happen and i think the more we can just talk about it and try to get those pieces on the table because you're right if you only have a couple it's not going to be a very clear picture but the more pieces that are there, then you can start to do it. Not to belabor the puzzle thing, but I've been doing a lot of puzzles lately with my daughter. Apparently, it's on the mind. But you said it first, though.

I did say it first. All right. I mean, because that's how I look at it. It's like imagine if you only had a couple, it doesn't do anything for you. And to extrapolate that those couple could be these major league secrets like these things are holy shit but then if it doesn't have context you can't take action on or you can't explain why necessarily it gets a little meta when you're talking about that but that's the truth yeah it is and this whole

phenomenon is pretty meta anyway so yes um yeah and it's it's really Yeah, it is. And this whole phenomenon is pretty meta anyway. So, yes. Yeah. And it's, it's really just having it, but they're keeping us from having it. They gutted the Schumer amendment. There's just so many things and that in itself, you know, should be evidence that there's something happening. And I think it is for a lot of people, but they're also still just keeping this process from moving forward. And I get it. And I also just don't give a shit about it because I think it's one tiny piece of something much, much bigger. To me, the most important thing is that this is entering the public zeitgeist, and we're paying attention, and we're looking at what's at the end of that stick.

We're seeing a carrot, and we're moving toward it this is also where i get where it gets really feels like it's stuck between a shit and a fart sometimes because on the one hand it's a shark yeah we have a word for that i say when it goes one way or the other period but you know on the one hand it's like if your intelligence and let's say just for the sake argument here you're one of the people who's read in on all of it okay if that even exists if you're there and you can simulate ahead of time how society would react to news about whatever this is whatever this extraterrestrial extra-tempestrial whatever it may be phenomenon is if you could simulate what would happen to a society of eight billion people around the world if they were given this information and

that simulation showed that there would be catastrophic ontological shock a a complete breakdown in social structure as we know it potential like war like we've never all these horrible things you might be in that case you very well would be in a position where if that were true keeping it a secret or not telling people on everything would actually be in the best interest of people the paradox or the catch 22 to that if you will though is who the fuck are you to decide that and i don't want to sit here and suddenly be like yeah let's just trust the people in intelligence because they'll never leave us astray but what if what if on this issue if that were the case what if they're right to do

that yeah and then you add the component too because we another big thing we need to start if that were the case, what if they're right to do that? Yeah, and then you add the component too because another big thing we need to start doing is bring in the experiencer testimony. These are the people that have had the closest encounters. They have arguably the most – it's hard to put a word to it, but they have information that's not really being talked about or considered right now. But if you do bring in that element of it, where one of the most common things is a sense that something's coming, some sort of transformational shift, some sort of cataclysm, whether it be societal or physical. And how does that relate to this? And how does that relate to that question you just asked whether we all have a

right to know or would it be too disruptive if we did know like if there is some storm coming and there's going to be a massive loss of life whether it be nuclear war or an asteroid or something would you want to know you know what would you make but would we stop going to work every day and a job we don't like and we go home and hug our kids or travel to the other side of the world assuming you could still get on a plane and travel because those people would probably be doing the same thing. So it would be sort of a collapse of society but you might look at life differently and enjoy it differently and make different decisions. Or we just don't know and we live in ignorant bliss and then a thing comes and we still transform, we still change but in a different way. I'm not saying that's why they decided not to tell us

because Hal Puthoff mentioned, I think at the Soul Conference recently, that he was a part of a group of people that were brought in to do that exact thing, they they were meeting to discuss whether we should talk about what is actually happening or continue to keep it quiet and a lot of them from what he said were pro disclosure and by the end unanimously they were like nope shouldn't do it not worth it so what is it when did he say that was uh I think I just saw the video. I wasn't at the Seoul conference, but I think it was at the Seoul conference like a year ago now-ish because the other one's coming up pretty soon. Yeah, but when did he say those meetings took place?

I don't know that. I can't answer that question. It would probably be easy to find because he probably did mention it in that conversation, but I can't give a specific time. But it's interesting in the context of what you're talking about here. This is an existential question. This is about what we are, who we are, how we understand the universe. We all have a right to know that. But if it's also a matter of maintaining this physical reality in the society that we built, as destructive as it is, and as much as it probably needs a reset of some sort, do we want to do that? Are we capable of doing that as a government

entity? And that's probably a big part of why they're afraid too. Could they even manage that? Because it would be on them to do it. If they're the ones that say it, they're the catalyst for that. It's then on them to manage it. Maybe that's a part of what they've been doing in slow motion. Like the buzz about those UFOs that were shot down over the Atlantic outside North Carolina and Alaska, like that to me felt like a litmus test, sort of a neuro-linguistic programming thing to get people to pay attention to this and to have it on their radar and to normalize it slowly over time as opposed to just boom here's the information here's the ufos now you have everything that you need to know so it seems like they're doing it in

slow motion like the drip drip of disclosure is sort of the the cliche term um but that would make more sense you get both you can have both assuming it's not associated with some massive cataclysm or some huge disruption to our lives but clearly there's something else there if it's just these aliens from this planet they've been coming here sorry they put some stuff in your butt you know i hope that didn't jack you up too much you know but but clearly there's something more than just that where we would all know already. And that's, that's what interests me is what is it that they're keeping from us that is likely way more disruptive than just that simple scenario. That could take, if that is the way they're doing it though, that could take decades.

They might have a timeline, though, too. Yeah. They might be coming up against something that they need us to have an awareness or at least to have the carrot out there. If we pay attention to it, that's one thing. If we don't, that's a whole other thing. And that's what I think existence is, is seeking. It's about seeking something beyond just this conventional physical reality. That's the problem though, because the stigma that they weaponize for so long with this

is so seeped into society that still the majority of people, even when they see, you know, Lou go on a book tour on CBS, they're like, oh, five minutes on UFOs. The average person who's not into this topic and doesn't study it, they don't care. A lot of people don't care. That's the thing that blew my mind the most about all of these just crazy revelations that have been popping up since, I mean, forever if you pay attention to it, but obviously since 2017 is a real turning point it's just how many people don't give a shit like it's arguably one of the biggest questions of our

time with so many implications but there's this rampant complacency what is that what's at the root of that it can't just be the the manufactured stigma because a lot of those people didn't care about that or wouldn't have paid attention to that anyway there's got to be something something more there's got to be something almost metaphysical associated with it with with the the people that pay attention and the people that don't you know not that ufos is the only thing we should be talking about but i think ufos is sort of a gateway into other realms of thinking that allow us to answer some more existential questions and to really open the aperture wider. I think there's something about it with, like you say complacency, and I think there's truth to that. But also,

it's so out there, no pun intended. It is. that i think people kind of wake up and if if the thought crosses their mind when they're looking at the sky it's almost like passively they're like well what the fuck am i gonna do about it if that's really a thing yeah they don't because they can't see it they're like whatever maybe it exists maybe it doesn I'm not going to sit here and worry about it. But doesn't it also make it an important portal or potential portal for allowing you to look into like Amy Michelle, one of Jacques Vallée's mentors famously said that it starts with studying UFOs and next thing you know, you're researching Arab mystics. So maybe that UFO is the more tangible thing. You still look up and see it. Yeah, you might not have the willingness or the desire to research it more, but most people do. reality now has to include that, it almost does act as a portal, a sort of gateway to get them to go down all of these other roads, to go down into these rabbit holes and to see what's down there. And a lot of things that emerge from that are spiritual growth and a sense of companionship

and connectivity with other animals, with other people, with the environment. And maybe that is what they represent in sort of a metaphysical sense. But it takes the physical, it takes seeing that thing or being brought up onto a ship or seeing beings with an evolved consciousness that you can learn from almost instantly just by being in their presence. So I think, yeah, it almost does act as a gateway of sorts if you're willing to accept the reality of what you're seeing. And most people, it takes seeing the believing, and they see it, and then there's believing. That turns into sometimes – but like as with everything in our society now, people put their entire meaning behind something. And so it's no different with this. You will find people who when they get into the UFO phenomenon and studying it and seeing what it's about, it becomes a full-blown religion. And I think we've passed that point to where you can't even have a conversation with some people that in any way might interfere with what they view as this whole thing being.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's easy to get pigeonholed. There's almost like a mental stovepiping that we've done regarding this phenomenon. And yeah, it's easy to go down one rabbit hole and stay there without seeing that it's more of an ant's colony where there's all these connected pieces, and it's much bigger than likely what any of us are even capable of understanding. There's some indications that it's really, if it is, so let's just stick with that analogy.

If it really is sort of this gateway to opening your aperture to include other things, to broaden your awareness of what reality might be beyond the physical and into the metaphysical of sorts, then yeah, I think like what if there is a point where we just butt up against something that is far too disconnected from that. It's too far outside of anything that we can understand with the senses that we have. When you had Danny Sheehan in here recently, he was talking about this same thing. And I share a very similar worldview to him. It was cool to hear him say it in really eloquent terms and much better than i could given his background you know but about this universal consciousness that just divides and iterates and polarizes and becomes all of the things that exist in the physical universe over what seems to us like an infinite period of time um but but to understand all of that there's certainly things we can't because we don't have the physical sense. What he was saying is that we might be evolving a sense that is beyond the five that we're aware of, the sixth sense that's likely the most primary sense, and that we've built these others on top

as we've sort of been forced to evolve in a kind of Donald Hoffman sort of way, forced to evolve to exist in this physical reality. there's likely a connection with this universal consciousness that exists and has always existed that we've gotten away from in this physical form as we walk across the river of forgetting as we're born that we could seek in trying to assess this ufo question and all of its implications yeah i he kind of blew my mind yeah that was a cool conversation because like i i get and i'm sure pretty much anyone out there listening who thinks about this at all you know can agree with me it gets almost like stressful thinking about what consciousness is and and you know how real

that is and and of course it gets back to what the meaning of it all is and who's involved with that is it is it a god is it aliens is it a simulation is it all the above you know it gets very very weird it does get weird um yeah i guess stressful too sometimes huh that's that's funny never really thought of it that way but yeah i mean i started meeting with a psychiatrist for the first time in my life not long ago probably because this shit is so stressful i think you're learning something about yourself right now yeah no doubt man no doubt um but yeah it is but what else is there too like like i was just saying there's few things that i'm this passionately interested in anymore because because yeah, I said in my second book

that I've always been easily bored with the banality of reality. And this challenges all aspects of reality, the way that we know it. And for a lot of people who aren't inclined to seek out questions because they don't have time or they don't want to, or it's not interesting, but there's a lot of other people that are really drawn to this. Many of whom haven't even had an experience or an experience that maybe they don't understand that they're not fully aware of. And they want to get at that, uh, in some capacity, but many who just see the reality of this and are like, hmm, that's all it takes for me. That's enough to widen my aperture. Let's find out what else is out there that I don't understand and didn't even know was real until recently. And I were approached in a way that kind of shocked you based on what they said to

you and and what happened could you just explain what went on there yeah that's a beautiful segue too considering what we're talking about and how sometimes we're forced to reconceptualize our um our reality um and a lot of times it takes ontological shock. We have to have a catalyst of some sort. And it's funny. I was just listening to an interview of Alicia Keys on SmartLess coming over from the airport last night. And it was cool.

She's talking about her creative process and how a lot of things that she has written have come from heartbreak or death in the family or loss. And that's really the creative process that I think opens us up to this whole universe of emotions and energy and intelligence that exists all around us. You know, like Danny Sheehan was talking about, if we all are just little droplets of light, little fractal iterations of source consciousness that grows out of that infinite energy, it exists everywhere, all around us, in everything. And it's cool because like, going back to what we were talking about with religion earlier is I was always taught to look up to the heavens because that's where God is. But if you

think about it, like if these different densities of energy and consciousness exist that everything's built from, it's actually inside. You would go in like, you know, zero point energy, for instance, or sub-quantum energy fields. That's likely where consciousness resides. I've heard Eric Davis say that. I've heard Hal Puthoff say that. Danny Sheehan was basically saying the same thing with these nodes of some sort of quantum, sub-quantum field. But, yeah, I think it's all related in some way.

I don't know exactly how. And for the first time in a long time i forgot your question i'm usually pretty good at finding my way back but i got lost i could see you were going down the road i was asking about when you got approached yeah yeah okay by someone and how that shocked you right right right so so yeah this was one of those times where I was forced to widen the aperture because I was done skis with all this. I was ready to jet. I was traveling a lot. I was, you know, doing too much. And the stress of not just that, but the existential questions was weighing on me. And I decided I didn't want to do it anymore. And this was sort of their avenue in, whoever they are, because that was just a thought in my head. I just decided that about a week before I was going to a conference called the International UFO Congress in Phoenix,

Arizona. This was October 7th or 8th, probably, 2022. So about a little over two years ago. So I just had that thought, didn't tell my wife, didn't tell anybody, decided I'd go to this conference. I'd give my talk and that'd be it. I was working on this third book. So I decided I would finish that too, but that's a different pursuit. You can do that at home whenever you want. It's not getting on a plane constantly. So I go down there, I give my talk, met this really interesting individual with a PhD who flew out to meet me to talk about his crazy ass experiences that he's been having, where he interacts with these beings who have indicated to him that they are from the future. And they have different capacities with which they can contact him and interact with him. How did they indicate that to him? He sees them constantly.

He's able to interact through his dreams and also sometimes in physical form as well. They saved his life. He gave me permission to talk about it at this conference recently. They showed up one time at the edge of his bed and said, you need to go see so-and-so doctor. And he, you know, was already kind of experiencing something and had a doctor where he lived in Southern California. They were like, no, you need to go see this doctor, like an old friend of his

that lived about three hours away. And he was like, oh, okay. Like, you know, just I need to do this. I feel compelled to do this. And he was being tested for cancer in a specific area in the place where he lived. They didn't find anything. They went three hours away to visit this one doctor. They did the same test and they found the cancer and removed it and said, you know, if we hadn't found this, you would have been dead in about three months. And it was 25 years ago. So they saved his life. Have they told him they're from the future? Have they, like, said that?

A lot of people have. That's what's crazy. A lot of these interactions, it's not just, hey, we're from outer space, or here's the star system. Even Betty Hill, I was telling Danny Jones about this, because I just learned about it too but even betty hill acknowledges that they're probably time travelers now because she described their physical form at a bus made showed it to some biological anthropologists they said that's

likely what will look like in tens of thousands of years so anyway i'm getting off track again that's okay you need to get like a bullwhip or something good man just track it if i keep going i like these i like these little tangents i'm also the one asking the questions getting you down there so don't worry about it but you were talking about going to the conference yeah yeah so i was on my way to this conference in about a week or so i'd already had a strange experience where i felt like i was having a telepathic conversation through a huge light very overt light in my neighbor's yard, like a security light that sits up high. And I was just out there one night and I felt like I was having a back and

forth conversation, which the next day I wrote off as just being a figment of my imagination. And of course, this is when people could argue, which I think is unjustified that, you know, we associate voices in your head with some sort of mental disability or schizophrenia or whatever, which I don't have. And I think everybody has some sort of intuitive connection to this broader consciousness that we are all aware of. But oftentimes because of those stigmas don't really pay attention to it much. Like the intuitions that we feel, the synchronicities that we experience, a lot of that is just trying to get us to pay attention to this much broader holistic reality that bridges the physical and the metaphysical. So I didn't take it seriously. I was still very in the physical reductionist materialist camp. I'd kind of been emerging from that. I had been to a

conference at the Esalen Institute and have really gotten to know a lot of people who study this and other phenomena like near-death experiences, out-of-body experiences, and I take that seriously. Even though I haven't had one, I'm aware they exist, and I'm interested in what people describe when they visit the other side. But I wasn't there, and I sort of wrote it off the next morning as just whatever, even though it was a very real conversation. So I go to this conference, give my talk, meet with this guy who had his life saved by future humans, and then for some reason took like a three three-hour nap i never take naps woke up late for this uh

this vip thing where there's there's booze and there's schmoozing happening and people can pay extra money to meet the speakers and i was one of the speakers at this thing go to this um halloween party downstairs, because it was right before Halloween in 2022. I'm out of money. And one of the participants, she runs audio video, name's Heidi. She doesn't mind me using her name. We've kind of all conned public with this in various ways. It's like, hey, I have a key to the VIP room. We'll go up and get some beers, bring them back down. And then you don't have to just go get money and pay a dollar for a beer. So I'm like, cool. At this point,

it's now clear to me that Heidi wasn't necessarily Heidi. She wasn't the one saying that or the one doing this. Because we went up to this room, get the beers, shoved a couple in my pockets for my friends downstairs. And then I wasn't allowed to leave. i'm like what are we doing here why can't i leave she's like oh my friend eric wants to talk to you i'm like who the hell is eric she's like oh don't worry you'll like him and she just kept saying that over and over for like 15 or 20 minutes i'm losing my mind and you're locked in this room not locked in the room but i couldn't leave i wasn't it kind of went beyond just we have to i'd like to wait for eric it was like a weird um just an inability to really conceptualize anything other than just staying there until eric got there like i kept thinking about i would have that thought

and i would say this and i would get frustrated but i i couldn't just be like fuck this I'm leaving you know maybe I could have I don't know that's a great question I never really thought about it before in that capacity but eventually I did just give up like there was something about that and the way she was saying it and how she was saying it hypnotizing almost yeah yeah almost that's funny i never thought about that aspect of it or even asked why didn't i just leave um so anyway i did eventually resign to the fact that i wasn't leaving sat down in this chair and then this eric guy comes in pulls up a chair right into me like you know right with his knee in my crotch like like hits my crotch. And his face is right here, complete stranger, this Eric that we had been waiting for, who really wanted to talk to me,

who I knew nothing about, and he knew nothing about me. He didn't know who I was. He pulls up this chair right here and says, we know you've been thinking about quitting lately, and we'd really prefer you not do that yet. And that was a very triggering event for me. Because you never said it. I never said that out loud. There was a thought in my head that I just had while doing dishes. My wife was behind me, didn't even say anything to my wife. Not like she would know this complete stranger anyway and call him and be like, hey, I was thinking about quitting.

You know, like just some dude. But that's the thing. He wasn't really him either. wasn't eric in this moment like he was and i've gotten to know him and what do you mean by that you said the same thing about heidi yeah she wasn't heidi and now he wasn't eric right so at first i didn't know what the fuck he was or who he was all i knew is is he knew my thoughts. And as the conversation unfolded, it was apparent that I was speaking to some sort of non-local consciousness that is aware of everything about me and also my future. And they were also the same non-local consciousness that I did in fact speak

to through that light earlier that year. Because I asked a question, they allowed me to ask questions in this moment, and one of my questions was something I asked while talking to that light, and they said, we already spoke about that before you went to Rice University for this conference, which was right before I went to. And I was having anxiety about it. So I was like talking to this light about my anxiety and traveling and what I was doing. And that was supposed to be like apparently some sort of mediating exchange where I would feel better. But I wrote it off the next day. I didn't pay attention

to it now they brought this dude with his knee in my crotch and his face right here and these really mesmerizing eyes to tell me to my face because apparently I need that physical uh aspect of this that we know what you're thinking we prefer you not do that. I was allowed to ask questions. There was sort of a conversation. Slowly it shifted from being a back and forth vocalized conversation to purely telepathical. Oh, you were going telepathic with him. Yeah. Well, and it happened so organically. I can't even identify the exact point when it happened. So you could hear his thoughts without his mind. Yeah, and Heidi's too. At some point, we just stopped using our voices,

but I could hear them and their voices in my head, and they could hear mine, and I could hear my own as I was saying things telepathically. The first indication of that is when they said, we'd really prefer you not quit yet, I'd say, how could you know that? And they said, once you know who we are, you'll know how we know that. And then I thought, future humans, question mark, but I

thought it telepathically, and they answered that before I said it. So that also is weird, that not only are these, this happening, that they know my thoughts, but I also communicated that telepathically, and they answered it before I said it out loud. Eventually, the whole conversation turned telepathic. So you've got these three people, Eric sitting right in front of me, Heidi, who's to my left, just staring at each other, not saying anything. And people are starting to come in. There were these three women that came out because they were kind of concerned about me. They knew me, and i knew them uh and they came out

and and this eric or whoever was communicating through eric said can you close the door behind you all three of them turned at the exact same time went in closed the door nobody came out the rest of the evening and things happened um that we can get into yeah let's get into it so things happened and nobody else came out but people were watching us and there was some level of concern and like what the fuck's going on out there so what they eventually got to after the question answer session was that they came there to put three things in my brain that would be important for some future times. So again, some indication that they know the future and specifically mine, but also I get the sense it's

for something else. I don't think it's just, I'm going to be out walking my dog. And then I suddenly say this thing. I have the sense that it's something possibly related to all of the things that are happening, but I have no idea because they told me before they did this, they asked my permission. It was all very nice. The whole experience was your classic love and light sort of thing, which again indicates that it's some sort of more evolved consciousness, I think. But they asked very politely. They told me I wouldn't have access to it. I wouldn't remember it, but I would see it coming in and they they would black my eyes out, and I would see this information coming in, and then they would release me from that.

I'd go about my business. Do we have your permission? It was all very like a free will oriented. We need you to choose. Do you agree to this? So at this point, and this is where- Did you feel like you could say no, though? I did.

I did. to this so at this point and this is where you feel like you could say no though i did i did but i wouldn't have because what happened throughout the course of this vocalized and then telepathic conversation is i started to remember i was made to or allowed to remember things and possibly a pre-incarnate state pre-incarnate state yeah that i had been a part of before i came here in this body and walked across the river of forgetting and what did that look like i i don't know but i felt a familiarity and an awareness of something. And I'm sure this sounds absolutely insane, but it was the intuitive sense that I had that who I was interacting with through Heidi and Eric were entities, beings, intelligences, consciousnesses who were familiar to me.

I knew them. And then I knew me and I knew our relationship. So I wouldn't have said no. I could have said no, but they had already brought me to the point where it's like, oh shit. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Okay. Let's do this thing. And so then I was actively engaged. I was a part of it. And what happened was exactly what they said. My eyes went black, like somebody pulling a curtain down over them from top to bottom. I see all of this information streaming in super fast. Like it was so intense.

Like a fire hose blasting you in the eyeballs. A bunch of color and like light and it's swirling and it's moving. And apparently I could see the information at the time as it was passing through because occasionally Heidi telepathically or no I think she vocalized that I can't remember they became so confused but I heard her in my mind or possibly in my ears I don't know say did you get that did you get that one did you see that and I'd be like uh-huh uh-huh so I could see it but then once it was in there gone there there's no access to it at all and they told me that and I agreed to that so that's fine but it also kind of sucks because people are like what they tell you what they tell I don't know and

they told me I wouldn't know and they asked if that was okay and I said yes so they finish up I have no idea how much time passed it was was kind of a missing time thing, which makes sense because we were all kind of out of the bodies that registered time. I kind of felt this as even before they put me in this sort of mesmerized hypnotic state. I kind of remember feeling like I was lifted above my body. Like we're all kind of meeting in the crown chakra or something to use the crown chakra. I'm just, I'm using terms that maybe are relatable to people,

you know, like you sort of lift it out and we're just here. I could still hear their voice in my head. I could hear my voice in my head, but it kind of felt like I wasn't fully in my body the way I experienced it every other time. This was the only time that's ever happened um not that you're on it but like kind of parallel to what some may say you get in psychedelic experiences a little

bit yeah absolutely um and and near-death experiences of all sorts there's there's this cool book um impossibility of things i wish i could remember the name of it. Um, I'll, I'll, I'll text you later. Maybe you can put it in the show notes, but it's about a woman who was blown up by an IED in Iraq and she was dead for a while. Her time had stopped. She entered this space, this time space that exists outside of the physical when we live our lives in. And she interacted with these beings who showed her all of these different pathways where her body could be put back together. And they were having fun with it.

They were joking around. Beings? Yeah, these entities, these energetic forms that apparently exist all around us that we're not aware of because of our limited senses and how we can perceive the universe. Did she say what they look like or how she perceived them?

Some are human-like. They were just energetic entities that could take on any form. You hear that a lot with these people that have these types of experiences. But they took on a form familiar to her, and she was allowed to work with them to put her body back together in all these different ways. And they would be like, okay, what if you didn't have a leg? What would your life look like?

And they could instantly see her entire life with no leg what if this eye that was hanging down from the side of her skull wasn't put back in and you lost that eye and they were they're just messing around with her like she was a doll and she was an active participant in this and she she was able to see and they could just be like boop do that and then that whole lifetime what that looks like so she didn't want to go back. She was like, physical reality sucks balls. And I don't want to be a part of that. I don't think those are the words she used.

But it's kind of like what I was feeling in a much smaller capacity. I didn't just get exploded in Iraq. But I was like, ugh, I'm just tired. And I kept saying that to them. And I felt like a giant wuss. And eventually, I was like, man, I need to suck it up. Because this is small potatoes, how I feel in this thing. But she articulated that too. And then eventually it was like, okay, I can go back. Let's try to make it a way I can go back.

I need support. I can't just go back to the life I had. I don't want to, especially with all of these physical problems I'm going to have because I just got exploded. So they found like sort of a mutually agreed upon way that she could exist and she got to be a part of it. And I've been reading a lot of channeled material lately because I now see that channeling is real. You know, I never would have before this interaction, but that's essentially what was happening. Channeling? Yeah. So it's also known as a state of deep transmediumship, where the physical form, the instrument, the body is used for this information to come through. And that's exactly what this was. Like Eric and Heidi were there as physical beings, but their consciousness was being used to convey information and exchange information in this way. It's very much one way. They were

just putting things into my brain. But we did have a dialogue for a while. I was allowed to ask questions in the same way that people do with this channeling material. So like the Seth material was one of the first ones. And then the raw contact, the law of one is really interesting, one of the quo material. There's a lot of individuals who have channeled,

and it's interesting because they're saying very similar things about what exists beyond this physical world. This is almost an illusion of sorts or a simulation, but that's not the right word. And we're here to have experiences, polarized experiences that can contribute to the evolution of the entire system. That this is a place where learning happens and suffering happens. And through that suffering, like we were talking about with Alicia Keys, things can come through and we can grow and we can learn. There's a lot of people singing her songs that come from that place that then build and grow and the consciousness learns about itself

from these existences and this gets out there you know this gets meta shit but it's real and it's one of these things like for someone to see a ufo and they're like oh wait that's real i want to figure out what that is after this happened to me i had to try to figure out what the fuck this is and what this physical existence is and how it relates to this broader awareness of a different thing outside this physical reality and to be clear the guy eric the guy you were talking to if i understood that correctly he's basically saying he's a future human no no not at all so i that. That was my initial thought because they knew the future. They knew my future.

So I assumed that individual and their consciousness was who knew that. Eric, I would not say he's a normal person. He's had a UFO encounter. His life, his mentality, his brain wiring has been changed. He was pinned down by a UFO and became a different person. Yeah he was pinned down by a ufo and became a different person yeah like held down by ufo there's a lot of instances of this happening actually in the ufo literature where um i wrote about one that that jacques valet wrote about and passport to magonia i think where this geologist was taken into ufo stood in front of a computer for what he thought,

you know, it was like an hour or so, came back out and he was missing for four or five days. His dad was like the general of the army, so mounted this massive search. They couldn't find him. He had this little flower in his lapel and he comes out, he's walking around. Eventually somebody finds him like,

dude, where were you? Where were you? The flower's perfectly the same. It wasn't wilted. He didn't have beard growth or anything. He was just in front of this computer having this information exchange, similar to what happened with me, but inside of a craft. And then suddenly his sleep changed, which also happened to me.

He knew things. He was already in college, and he just didn't really even have to go to class anymore. He just knew everything they were talking about. he would take math classes and it was just intuitive it was in there um so so eric sort of experienced that same sort of thing because i've gotten to know him you know i was scared shitless to talk about this it really fucked me up so you still talk with him yeah yeah yeah it was actually the first time i ever talked about this publicly is with jesse michaels because he was one of the first people I told about it. I i was hanging out with him in la you know it came up and i was just i needed to unload you know and he's just looking at me like what

and and then he he brought me back down um about six or seven months later and he i i got the sense he would want to talk about it you know because it's kind of a weird thing and i i think it and it has helped a lot of other people by talking about this. Cause I've found a lot of people have had similar experiences and don't know what to do with it in the same way that I was struggling to, uh, attempt to fit it within my worldview box as well. Um, so yeah, I was telling him about this and when I first did, I didn't know what word to use for Eric because I didn't know what he was or who he was. And I assumed his consciousness, his body.

I had no reason to think otherwise. And then I was sitting, his doco came out right before Thanksgiving. And I was sitting at the Thanksgiving table. We're about to eat. And he pops up on Facebook Messenger. He found me and sent me a message. And his face that came. And he pops up on Facebook Messenger. He found me and sent me a message. And his face that came up, he still has his profile picture. You can go look at it if you want. It's hilarious. But it's all like mesmeric and like flowy colors. And it's right

here, you know, just like he was in my face when he's doing this thing. And it said, I think it's time for us to talk. That was his message to me it's already eerie ass picture you know really cryptic message i think it's time for us to talk and it really triggered me hard like i it sent me back to all those things i'd been coping with that i did cope with and that got better but put me right back there yeah like oh shit he's real. He's a person. And I've got to know him. He is a person. What is his background? I don't really know a lot of details. A lot of things we talk about tend to be related to this. He's open about this.

Heidi, also willing to tell her story. I don't think she enjoys doing it as much. But Eric is really trying to help people. And he does have a fascinating backstory that I think really helps to conceptualize a lot of why he was there and how he was used and why he was used. Because he does have abilities that I think stem from his UFO encounter that allowed him to shoot that information into my brain harder than most people could and faster too. Cause there was a timetable, like there were people coming into this room by the time they let me out. I mean, there's probably 15 or 20 people in there. I don't know. And I couldn't- 15, 20 people.

Yeah. In this VIP room. And you've been having this telepathic conversation. Outside on the porch. Yeah. And it was crazy because i couldn't i couldn't even lift my head to see like as i walked through the room somebody put their hand on my arm and said are you okay because again there was as i learned later there was some concern about what was happening i just go huh walked out of the room down the hall fortunately i was only about five doors down from that vip room where this party was gathering. Laid back, slept for 13 hours, woke up, cried uncontrollably for like four or five hours. Went back, went downstairs into the foyer to give a book to my friend John Dover.

We were just in a George Knapp's taco together. I've known him for a while. Gave him my second book and as i'm doing that just bursting from the inside with all of this emotion and confusion and ontological shock essentially eric comes around the corner there's no reason for him to have been there at that time comes around the corner puts his hand on my shoulder and says are you okay i'm just like uh-huh uh-huh like my brain was just mush you know but it did take away a lot of that because i was on a panel that same day i had to like function you know the end of conference banquet was happening there's a lot of stuff that i needed to exist in

this physical reality for and they through him in that moment because they knew where i would be happened to find a great space to catch me as I'm walking through and then help to alleviate a lot of that anguish that was associated with the shock of that event. When it switched over, to go back to the event, when it switched over to telepathy, obviously like this goes on, as you said, for a little while, and it kind of naturally does it, and you can hear their thoughts and they can hear yours. Did it feel, I'm trying to think, I even want to ask this, but did it feel like you were delayed in understanding what was happening or were you simultaneously understanding everything that's happening and also being

like, holy shit wow we're talking to each other's brains right now yeah it was a progression for sure it started out again vocalized and then like i said it i didn't even really notice that it turned telepathic but then eventually i did i'm like okay this is weird but everything was already weird leading up to it from the very first thing they did tell telling me they knew what was in my brain. But then, yeah, it was kind of this accelerating curve of the speed at which it happened and the understanding. And it was kind of like a remembering, you know, like I'm just, and able to then take that awareness, get my own consciousness out of the way, because I needed that to happen to put the stuff in it in the first place. So I did start to kind of remove my consciousness from this vessel,

which allowed me greater clarity in the things that were said and a faster rate with which I could understand them. All right, real quick, let's, let's break, grab you some lunch, and then we'll come back and dig into this a little. Yeah, sounds great. All right, we quick, let's break, grab you some lunch, and then we'll come back and dig into this a little more. Yeah, sounds great. All right, we're back. Actually, one thing we didn't get into before we took a break was what did your wife think of all this? And how did that conversation go down? Were you told her about everything that happened?

Yeah, that's a great question. question um so the next morning after i woke up with all my clothes on my shoes on my feet still on the floor um and was crying uncontrollably which i i think was kind of a physiological response to whatever it was they put in my brain because i didn't really feel like sadness or anything it was just that i couldn't stop crying and it was weird and so i texted her uh and i said i think i met them last night and i can't stop crying and she was like happy tears i'm like i don't know i just i don't know i can't i just can't stop and it's driving me crazy i think i met future humans and her first question is happy tears i mean it's a fair question like well, well, are you excited about this? And, you know,

and I also didn't know, like in my mind, it was future humans. You know, I telepathically asked them that, but, but it's interesting. And I think important to point out that they didn't say yes in that moment. They, they just carried on. So it was it was like they said once you know how we know that you'll know who we are essentially and i thought future humans and then they moved on so the implication is that's who it is but i get the sense that that's an oversimplification um just to clarify that point but yeah i know so i was like i don't even know where to start you know because she's obviously like, what happened? What happened? And I couldn't call her because I had all this other shit I had to do for the rest of the conference.

But when I got home, I told her the whole thing, start to finish, all the little details. Yeah, my kids were there too. And for a while, it was super weird because I didn't talk about it a lot, but there were people I felt comfortable discussing it with because I'm trying to figure it out myself, and I still am. You know, I don't know what the hell this is. But it did help talking to people, but their faces were always the same. It was kind of creepy, actually. There's just like kind of a blank stare, you know?

It might be because you can't possibly process something like that if you weren't there yeah i think so and and i think that's a big part of it for me too you know i'm still i've i've come to grips with the reality of it but the implications i'm still working on there was a period of time where that was really hard too but it's gotten better um but yeah I think the reason they did it the way they did was not just so I paid attention having two people there but also having the people inside helps for the reality of reality of it for other people who weren't there you know because it's like oh wait there are witnesses to this it was like we were in a little telepathy Gallery or something. We're out on this balcony and there's a gaggle of people

inside watching this with concern about what's going on. And so I think, you know, that's helpful. Like when I talk about the conversation, I feel like I had with that light that they referenced, it's just me in this light, you know, there's nobody else there. Even if they were, they'd be like, why is this dude just staring at this light? But I think a big part of why it went down the way it did on that balcony with these two other people and with the people inside, with the three women that came out, is so there's witnesses, essentially. You know, like, oh, that did happen. I saw this, you know, interchange taking place.

You've done a lot of work in your research and in your books about reported experiencers, and we've already talked about it a little bit today. And essentially what we're saying here is that you are one too through this experience in your own way. But how do you separate out what seems like – I want to ask this correctly. But like what seems like people just pile in on the train of I want to be able to say I was a part of something versus things that actually seem like they are plausible? Yeah. If we even know what plausible is in this kind of sense right well speaking personally i

didn't want to be a part of that at all um it was really hard for me to talk about this it's gotten easier um but at first and even you know it was a year later before i did finally talk about this publicly for the first time i And I think it's probably the same with most people. In fact, a part of why I did decide to share this experience publicly was what I told you off camera, that one of the questions I was allowed to ask, you know, I asked, can I talk about this? And they specifically said, we want you to talk about this. But the other part is you're right. In researching and writing my second book, I'm drawing from the experiences of people who are brave enough to talk about very odd experiences that most people don't believe. And I dedicated my book to them, to the brave women and men who were willing to do this because we can't get information without it.

So it was a combination of being compelled to talk about it because they told me, you know, when I asked if I could, but also realizing I'm a hypocrite if I'm acknowledging these people who did and I'm not doing that. So, yeah, but it's hard, you know, and we do need discernment. We do need to absolutely take everything with a grain of salt and be critical, you know, does this person have a motive or their intentions there that maybe are impure? I think we should be doing that with everything related to this phenomenon. But yeah, I don't know. It's hard because there's different levels. J. Allen Hynek in his book, The UFO Experience, he took a lot of what he was doing in running Project Blue Book and tried to apply it to all of these different cases. He had this metric for strangeness and reliability. Reliability went up if there's other people involved. The strangeness had a higher score if it was outside of our conventional reality or what craft can do within

our reference frame here in this time and space. And I think we can apply that to a lot of cases and to really understand it, it seems that the stranger it is, the harder it is to believe, but that also maybe makes it easier to believe too. It was kind of a funny scale. What do you mean? maybe makes it easier to believe too it was kind of a funny scale well in the sense that it's harder to it's easier to explain away with the lower score can be like well it moved and it you know it didn't have lights quite right but that's different than something coming down right in front of you and sucking you up into it and taking you away yes gallivanting around the stars or whatever. So I think all of those toward the end of that spectrum are hard to believe based on conventional notions of what

we have and what those things can do. But I think the big thing for me, and this is what I was trying to do with the second book, The Extra-Tempestual Model, is look for patterns across them. Can we identify recurring themes and patterns in each of these different cases? And then what can we learn from those? So I took, ironically, what's called an abductive approach, where you're looking at as much as you can. I know it's hilarious, but that is actually the name for this scientific methodological approach, where you look at everything, or as much as you can with discernment in sampling, but then what you try to do is make inference to the best explanation. So I didn't come into this to prove that the extra-tempestual model is correct. I wanted to look at a number of

different cases that span 90 years over five different continents to see what emerges from that and what explanation may fit that data the best. And a lot of them, this time travel model does, but there's other ones too that can also fit the data. So I'm not trying to give priority to this specific model, but rather to take in this abductive approach to try to find inference to the best explanation. And that's one of them, but I think there's others as well. Before we get to some of the other possible explanations, how did you whittle it down to 14 cases? Like what was the logic there and how did that happen?

Man, that's a tough one. Yeah. So largely what we do in anthropology is we look at things across space and through time. So I knew I wanted to have a broad view with regard to the same phenomenon and how it impacts people differently in different places. So within that, that's a starting point. And then within that, a lot of it was just an intuitive sense of how we can identify themes and patterns within and among them. So for instance, and it's hard because I did them in sequential order. So for instance, the first case with Mike and Leo Dorshak in the Dakotas was in the 1930s. But there's elements of that that also tie into some of the case studies later in the book

that took place in the the oddies and the you know teens so it's kind of hard because you have to lay a foundation but also link these themes together in the book through time but also throughout these consecutive case studies and it kind of came together in a way that makes me wonder how much agency i even had over that like how we were talking about alicia keys earlier and how she just kind of opens the portal to the akashic record or whatever we want to call it and i heard paul simon say a similar thing in a conversation with steven colbert recently where he's like asking about his creative process and eventually he's just like you know in so many words it kind of just comes you connect in it it comes through

and it's the same thing with like i've written probably 85 90 songs most of them have just been something i poop out like in that moment you know you open up and there it is if i try to write a song over the course of weeks or months it's garbage you know but one of my favorite songs according to my bandmates and friends was one of these that just i probably wrote the entire thing lyrics melody and music within an hour isn't it so magical when that happens it's crazy you feel so connected to everything now was it were you sitting down writing other things before you got to that song are you saying it happened within an hour where you literally sat down to

write and just this song came out? Oh, that's a good question too. I don't remember the exact way in that moment. I just remember it kind of pouring out. And yeah, it'd be interesting to know what catalyst existed, if there was some sort of thing that helped kind of unlock that pathway. Oh, I remember I ate a half uh a half ounce of mushrooms just kidding but that would probably do it honestly it probably would there's

something about it though there's there's this great explanation ed sheeran has where he shows a dirty faucet or faucet with dirty water coming out and then he shows another picture where the faucet now has clean water coming out yeah and he's like the idea that you get right to that without getting through this first part is is very very rare occasionally can happen where like just the right thing comes together in the right flow and you're like whoa what is that I remember one time I was in a studio with some producers up here in North Jersey who the guys who work with like Fetty Wap and all those guys when they were blowing up and I was in there for like a few different sessions and every time it was like you know they were working out different beats like and now it's not good oh

it's built on that you know whatever and then maybe the second or third time we were in there, like one night, literally sat down and within like five minutes, I'm just sitting next to the producer and he just starts with like this tone. He's like, ooh. And then he just hits something. We got real silent. Hits something else, boom. And then he flips over this table, as in a little base to it, and then comes over, put

some snares on. I'm like, and suddenly I'm telling you, it was within 10 minutes. It was completely together. And you had something that to this day, I can't figure out why they didn't make that song. It's like, oh my God, I can see that bumping in every club in America. And the thing is, it just doesn't work like that sometimes it's sometimes like that little magic comes down and you can't control it but when it does you better ride that absolutely i think

magic's a great word for it too because it feels magical and and you know to to your question about how i selected these um jeff craple i think others have coined this phrase too but a little literary angel you know like how a book will just kind of come off the shelf or sticking out just a little better you flip to this page that happens to be exactly what you need that happens so much in that book the first one it took seven years to write a lot of research There's over – that one was faster, much faster. My first book is called The Identified Flying Objects. I published it in 2019, and it's a really dense, thorough scientific investigation of this question. So that one focuses on this question specifically, draws from physics, astronomy, astrobiology, anthropology, and some of the other social sciences to some extent.

But that one, it's been called dense by a lot of people. There's a lot of technical terms. I define all of them. But unless you, like, love science, it's not going to be something that you would necessarily just read and be like, oh. So I wrote the second book that had a ton of literary angels in it where I'm flipping through. I know I kind of want to write about this, but I don't know exactly how.

Boom, there it is. I just flipped to that page. Or a book kind of just shows itself on the shelf. And then that one took about two years to write. And then this one definitely came from the ether because I sat down, my truck was getting fixed at the Ford garage. And I went to this restaurant that was in parking distance with a couple of notebooks because I had an idea that I was going to write a fiction book, which I've never written prior to this point, and did some research on how to write fiction and you know the the storylines how they

progress just to have the framework but then i sat down and just i filled these notebooks in their entirety in the time it took between dropping off my truck and picking it up at this this uh restaurant that i went to and and it felt like one of those things you know like writing a song or doing a painting or the thing with the producer where it's just it just kind of comes together you know and the entire framework was there for that book and i'd modify things and add it but it's the same as it was that i scribbled in those notebooks it's it's just one of those things where you like kind of just open yourself you see it you oh, and then let the magic happen.

And that's how it was with the second book, The Extra-Tempestual Model, where I'm like, I know what I want to write. If I try to force it, it's never going to happen. If I just kind of sit back and wait for those book angels to come down and help. Actually, a really great example of this is Whitley Strieber. To come back to him in a very different capacity, one thing I learned that started happening to me after my contact experience, I started having time slips. My sleep was highly disrupted. Um, I would always wake up

between three and 5.00 AM and he used to drive me insane. I was like, what is happening? I need sleep. You know, I was busy at work and dealing with teenage angst, not my own, but my daughter's. I probably didn't need to clarify that, but my repressed teenage angst coming through the wee hours of the morning. No, but life was just hard already. I was dealing with this contact experience. I didn't know what to make of it. And I was always up and sometimes up for like an hour, hour and a half. So I'm listening to Whitley on my friend Kelly Chase's podcast, UFO Rabbit Hole, and he's talking about how that happens to him too. And this conference I went to at Rice University, opening the archives of the impossible that I

went to right after my talking to the light experience, where I was sort of talking to the light as a sort of a way of seeking comfort and what was happening and all of the traveling and these insane intellectual conversations um at that conference he was saying he gets up between three and five to meditate and i was like this dude's insane like he's setting an alarm but it's not what happens he's so tapped in to this other possibly all-encompassing reality that he has just woken up and there's a name for it's called brahma mahartha and it's existed throughout the world and through time and they gave a name to it in the hindu tradition i think that's where it came from sounds very hindu brahma mahartha where you wake up specifically

like an hour and 46 or hour and 45 minutes before sunrise. And I noticed it was changing too. So in the winter, it would be earlier in the summer, it'd be later. And it's completely linked to sunrise. But what I found is that when this happens, I was looking at it as this horrible thing that made me tired. And I was just grumpy the whole day, which doesn't work well with teenage angst. I'll point out. There was a lot of head-butting that was happening in my household at that point. But then after listening to Whitley talk about it, and I got to tell him this story, and Esalen and a group of other academics and researchers, after hearing what he does with it,

is that that time there's a lot less interference because there's not a lot of people awake at that time in your general space and time and you can actually have access to information and energy that you can draw into your body and into your mind during this brahma maharata time that happens so and that that was a for me. I started looking at it completely differently and started to meditate in that time and lay there and focus and draw energy and draw information and use it in a way that was empowering. So as opposed to a detriment, it became an asset. And I was suddenly energized. I had new things to think about, new ways of thinking about them. And yeah, it was something that was new following this new awareness, but

also I feel like a change to the physiology of my brain too. Whatever happened on that balcony in Phoenix, I think changed something because I felt the physiological effects of that. My head felt heavy and I couldn't stop crying. Um, and then, yeah, the things with the time and the wakefulness at this specific time, I really flipped the way I thought about it and started to use it as opposed to seeing it as a, as a detriment. Do you think that when, when something like that so heavy happens to you, obviously we're humans. We dwell on it because we're like, Oh my God, you know, you're questioning everything or whatever. But sometimes as you get farther away from something, you know, the dwelling can get more stressful because you start to wonder like, wait, did I feel this way about it? Did I feel that way about it? Did this happen? Like you remember the story, but you're getting farther and farther away. So maybe it like the ontological shock in a way kind of

increases more. Do you ever feel like there could be instances where, you know, maybe some, some confirmation bias could come in, in some of your findings or things relative to you as it relates to this experience you had? Absolutely. Yeah. So when all of this insane stuff started happening, and I feel bad even using the word insane because that helps perpetuate the bias and the way that we look at it, but these non-conventional things, which began as it did with most people in seeing UFOs. I finally did have a UFO encounter of my own from a distance, but it was clearly non-ordinary, and it followed all of the same patterns as a normal UFO does in the nighttime sighting of that sort. But it was shortly thereafter that this wave of strange phenomena started to take place.

And recognizing that, I wrote it down. So as it was happening, I wrote it all down certain elements of it have been somewhat modified over time. And I absolutely do things now and study things now and look at things in a way I wouldn't without those. Some aspect of that could be biased and that I'm seeking out things that are related to that, not to know something. I'm not looking at it with a specific end in mind or a specific goal, but I've been opened up to new ways of thinking that lead me down a different path. But even in doing that, there's some bias inherent in it. So yeah, I think the problem would be if I was drawing conclusions and then working backward from it which is the opposite of what I'm doing I am trying to figure out

what it is that happened to me personally that's my starting point but also recognizing that there's really no ego in it it's really more of a quest to understand the world the universe the way we're all related um but without without any sort of seeking to like confirm something for myself like in those, I was kind of brought into a space where I felt a collective unity that didn't really leave much space for ego. And that was one of the hardest parts is that I came away from this experience with a very diminished sense of self. And it's been hard to get that back. I think that was part of the struggle. I went through another sort of dark period pretty recently, actually, about two or three months ago, where I was trying to get self back. I felt like I was being pulled apart.

Trying to get self back. Yeah. So I guess another way of saying this would be, so I recently became chair of my department and that comes with a lot of work and a really strong focus on, uh, collaboration, working with others, doing this job that was hard for me to care about because I had also, um, gotten a foot in this other life. And it was like my, my feet were in two different worlds being pulled apart, ripping me up from the bottom, like some sort of James Bond torture device or something. And that was really hard. You know, that stress on my proverbial groin in this metaphor was really difficult. And a lot of it I realized was because I need to be present in this body, in self, in these moments where I'm doing this job as a professor, as a chair, interacting with these things that seem so insignificant because there's these bigger questions. Not that I have answers to those questions, but the seeking and the trying to understand takes you so far out and so far away from where

that other foot is that you really do feel stretched apart. So I guess when I say I was seeking self again or seeking a sense of ego, it was in trying to bridge that gap and understand that I am in this body and I am experiencing things and I have to be a part of this world and be present for things and can still ask questions that take me far away from there. I've heard Dean Radin talk about this, where a lot of people who have odd experiences that challenge their notions of reality erect a filter and they can look through that filter. But if you get too far gone, and then it brings up questions of actual mental illnesses. Yeah. intellectual, mental illnesses. I just listened to a book about the telepathy tapes and how kids

with autism likely are just, they have a different way of sensing. They can understand, speak telepathically. They can know things without even knowing themselves. They didn't read a book, but if they know someone that is reading a book, they can just listen to the thoughts of that person and know what the entire book is about. Yeah. So there's all of these ways of understanding where we look at an autistic kid and say, oh, they're dancing around. They have no idea what's going on in reality. They might have a better sense of that, like what Danny Sheehan was talking about, where we might be evolving our consciousness to have that sense that we always had, and we erected these more physical senses that get in the way of that.

And stuff like, you know, obviously there's a scale there, and people can become dangerous. But if they're at the outskirts of this, you know, if they have schizophrenia, they might have access to something that instead of seen as a mental illness we should see it as something that should be studied because it might give us insights into different ways that the mind can work in different situations yeah i think sometimes i've said this before but when you look at people who are a real genius at something whatever it is could be art could be sports could be science anything

like the the creme de la creme the best there are there's always there always seems to be some sort of i don't want to use the word kryptonite but like they they it's almost like they have a price that they pay for that genius right and so for their mind to be able to work this way, other things are just off. I'll give you an example. Kanye West. Kanye West says certifiably insane shit. And sometimes it gets completely out of control.

And sometimes it doesn't make sense to anyone else except him. But Kanye West is audiovisually probably the most genius person ever walked this earth he can create sounds and create imagery as well that other people can't even process how you would even get to that point right and i i kind of wonder if there is something you know some sort of wrong word to use here, but just for the sake of not being able to think of the right one, some sort of bastardization of the consciousness that has to do with that. Yeah, absolutely. Neurodivergent people seem to have more abilities or different

ways of thinking about things that give them insights, even traumatic brain injuries. You know, you have people that experienced a car crash and suddenly they can solve complex mathematical formulas. I know a woman personally, I met her in 2019, who was in a car crash, severe brain damage, and became, without having ever painted in her life, an amazing painter. Whoa. And I think that works both ways. We were talking about with musicians, music know, like music sort of changes your brain structure to, uh, psychedelics as well, you know, any sort of way that you can sort of get in harmony with the cosmic existence that we're a part of. I think it works both ways. Like the

music comes from that space, but the music and rewiring your brain to be able to do music with other people, especially, you know, cause you're creating something together. And sometimes, you know, people are in different moods, you're not vibing, but then there's other times where, you know, exactly what everybody's playing and how they're playing. And it just flows so beautifully. It's kind of like, I don't know, but it happens with other stuff too. Like those group mediumship things where like, maybe you've heard Leslie Kane talk about seeing this ectoplasm form into hands and then she would take molds of these hands, like it actually comes into existence. But one person, spoon bendings,

another one, these, what's it called, PK parties, psychokinesis, where people can bend spoons. It takes that group to be able to bring that energy that helps it happen with the exception of select few like ingo not ingo swan uh i always get him mixed or he geller like he can just do it yeah but but it takes usually that group energy that you see in the mediumship and you know spoon bending with music, art, creativity. But yeah, on an individual level, it almost seems like you have to be a little bit off. And maybe that just allows you to be more open in a way. You know, maybe it's not just a one-to-one correlation where it changes something in your brain, but just being more open and not seeing the world as everybody else does,

like Kanye West, you know, he's like, fuck like fuck it i'm gonna make what i make because it feels right to me and i'm not being put into this box that we're all supposed to work from but i'm gonna look outside of that box and that's essentially what a neurodivergent person is is looking what walking against the the crowd of people walking toward them and seeing things differently yeah but it also like even beyond the people who are just geniuses you know we we've done serious psychological studies we've accessed all these things where people can study across psychologists can study across huge populations how people process things and things and think of things to get an idea of all the things in our brains that do tie us together but i still always say this because it it is true i've only ever lived between

my two ears and everyone else out there if they think about it well that's that's the truth too yeah and it's like how what are these small microscopic things that could be just a little different even if it's 0.1 in each of us that make the whole that like that in and of itself kind of hides the secret of what this consciousness is all about. You understand what I'm saying? Oh, I do. Yeah. I completely agree. And what would be the purpose if we were all the same and we all did the same thing and we all thought the same thing? It takes that polarity in order to do that good, bad, positive, negative, whatever you want to call it. But

okay. So let's say hypothetically, we are here because we are different iterations of source consciousness sent here to learn in order to contribute to the evolution of said consciousness. So the universe can learn about itself, essentially. This came up recently in a conversation with my wife too, is, and kind of harkening back to what we were talking about, is maybe there's things we just can't understand. Not because we, you know, don't ever think about it, we don't ask the right questions, we just can't. A big thing for me is what is this relationship between this physical existence, which I think is secondary, I think it's an emergent phenomenon that grows out

of primary consciousness. And I'm in this body. That's all I have to, is how I perceive things that go in my eyes that I touch and feel and can think about, limited by the time and space that I exist in, even outside of this body. But when this body exists, this thing I call mike michael p masters with his stupid three names but but this is my only frame of reference but it's the frame of reference that i am a part of that can you know help in all these different ways but the thing that came up with my wife is it's like what what would be the fucking point of knowing everything that exists in the land of remembering before we walk across the river of forgetting? What's the point? We wouldn't be here if we had access to that. We wouldn't walk across the river of forgetting

if it didn't serve some purpose. So yeah, to your question of how is it all linked together, I think we all have to forget as we come into these bodies seeking knowledge, seeking information, seeking unity with each other, but realizing that we're all coming from a different viewpoint. We see the stimulus different. We see the catalyst differently, but we're still one, all giving back to the same thing

and that's not my idea that's not an original idea that's just from looking at all these different things associated with what we're talking about with consciousness and universe and god there's so many near-death experiences psychedelic experiences it all just seems to sort of indicate that they're all the same and and they're just different parts of something much bigger yeah yeah you you mentioned in your book the some of the different theories on what things are you mentioned things we've talked about some of them obviously today but obviously extra tempestuals extraterrestrials multiverse simulation spiritual you know one of the places i want to start with was the multiverse because it to me it ties into what you're saying but it seems like you were separating the two when you're talking about future humans

the concept there is obviously that they can traverse time and they can if if we're experiencing them as some people claim they are you know then then they can come here and and they've they've solved for that i've always thought of the multiverse and it's just me as kind of tied to that too because the multiverse just means that we're – there are all these different versions of this same reality that exist in different dimensions. But in order to travel across dimensions, you could essentially be traveling across time. What I mean by that is, as Michikaku says, like if he had a radio, he's like, if you move the transistor just a little bit this way, then in this room, there would be dinosaurs. Yeah. Right? But we're here in 2024.

So they're different times but the same place. You see what I'm saying? So how do you distinguish those two theories specifically from each other and make them their own separate buckets? Yeah, that's a great question. And your Michio Kaku impression is spot on, by the way. That's quite good. I kind of thought he was in the room with us for a second there. He's an easy one. That's an interesting question because I think there's a lot of layers to that that we can peel back on this proverbial onion. So yeah, in looking at theories about this,

there's this theory, I don't claim ownership of it. This time traveling future human theory has been around as early as the 1940s, as far as I can tell. And early in my second book, I tried to acknowledge everyone I could find through a massive literature review, who has talked about this in some capacity um there's also the interdimensional idea which has been battered around to um batted around might be batted around by you know jacques valet and um john keel with the ultra terrestrial model like there's some overlap innately because we're talking about something that exists sort of outside of time, space, space, time, not just extraterrestrial. So a lot of these theories, even the crypto terrestrial model is about an advanced civilization sequestering itself in or around Earth, far

south of the moon, underwater, wherever, but their origins are still up for grabs. And in this paper we just published in June about scientific openness to this crypto-terrestrial idea, we list possible origin points of them. They could be from outer space with more advanced technology coming here, building a base on the far side of the moon. They could be from time. They could be future humans that don't want to just constantly go back and forth through time that's set up in our time, especially if they're harvesting gamete, sperm and egg. It's easier to do that if you just have a ship that's built here that doesn't have to be a time machine. And I think this giant triangular craft that's seen on occasion and was part of the Phoenix Lights perhaps is, I refer to it as a floating fertility facility in my second book, because seemingly this is where a lot of that was happening on a mass scale. It's bringing in males and females and taking sperm

and egg as this gamete harvesting process. But again, that doesn't necessarily, just saying crypto terrestrial, that doesn't answer the question. It doesn't say where they're from or when they're from. Same with the interdimensional idea. What this extra-tempestual model is to answer your question specifically is a model about um future humans coming back in their own timeline in the block universe specifically so they're coming back in the block in the block universe and that's an important distinction it has elements of interdimensional has elements of the multiverse like you were saying. Yes. And in that situation, you're right, they could be jumping across timelines. This timeline happens to be just a little less evolved as far as the rate of evolution as it happens in these different timelines.

So therefore, they would be from the future of people in this timeline and likely have other aspects of their existence just because of the differences in that universe that they come from. But with regard to this block universe, it is one of few things, or at least I guess I should say one of few things that physicists agree on is that we don't know what time is. Like how I was saying that this physical universe feels like something that's emergent from a fundamental consciousness, source consciousness universe, infinite reality. Most physicists agree that time is an emergent property of something more fundamental. And it's likely that it really isn't anything in that infinite consciousness that all moments are

now and i hear this all the time all moments are now yeah yeah so and and intuitively they feel like that that's all we experience is now but at the same time we can't know what now is i remember being on a plane in uh in, early in my college years, and I kept trying to find now. I'd be like, okay, that woman's walking down the aisle when she gets there. That's going to be now. But they're inseparable from any other now. And Einstein was very, very perplexed by this question of the now. What is it? How do we quantify it? We can't. But seemingly outside of these bodies, and I think we almost have to make a separation between the metaphysical aspects of time and the physical aspects of time, where we in these bodies as organisms that interact with each other and that eat each other

had to have a sense of time in order to avoid getting eaten or to capture something you want to eat or to find a mate or to do a mating display of some sort to get laid in the first place, we had to have a sense of linear progressive unidirectional time. So we've evolved that in these physical bodies as an aspect of existence. But outside of that, you hear over and over with near-death experiences, out-of-body experience, psychedelic experiences, abduction experiences where time moves differently, almost like it doesn't even exist. People that die for a brief period of time have access to move their consciousness, their awareness just around instantly and at any time. They can move forward and backward in time. So I think – long way around this, I apologize.

No, it's great. This one's coming back though. I feel like a couple went in a direction, but this one, I am circling back. It's a long ass circle, my friend, but I am getting there. That's the beauty of long form podcasts. You're allowed to do this. That's true, that's true.

So what I'm saying is I think it's the same thing if we look at the way the universe works, is that in the block universe, just to backtrack on that for a second, it's the idea that all moments from the birth of this universe, from the Big Bang, all the way to when the last bit of matter goes into the last black hole and cycles back to source and cycles back to the beginning of a new universe that may be the same one. All those moments exist as a massive four-dimensional block of space-time. Everything is in there. So when you move in the block universe, say I'm going back to 10 years ago. I'm going back, I'm walking around, I'm petting cats, I'm pushing old ladies down in the street, I'm picking flowers. All of these around, I'm petting cats, I'm pushing old ladies down in the street, I'm picking flowers. All of these things that I do don't change anything. They're just things I was always going to do in those moments. So when I get back, everything's the same because all those moments are structured that way. As I see linear time, as I grow and change throughout my life,

I go back and do that thing, but those moments were already there. I was already pushing down that lady and picking flowers. When I get back, nothing's changed. And that's the black universe, and that's how I structured, that's what I structured this extra-tempestual model around, recognizing that there's also the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. There's also the multiverse, which is related to that in some capacity. So there are other theories where there can be change. Where I go back, I push that lady down. She was supposed to be the head of the UN, and now everybody's fighting each other in wars. She broke her hip and couldn't become head of the UN because I guess that could happen somehow. So there could be change in branching timelines

with different universes that grow out of that and a lot of these physicists would argue that even by going into the past just showing up there it causes quantum decoherence and a separation of timelines it's an estuary yeah yeah you're taking the question out of my mouth here but i was going to bring up the michukaku point he always points out and like obviously everything we're talking about is theoretical you got to do it in the voice though i'll do it in the voice but this is like this makes all the sense in the world to me because it's it explains like the butterfly effect of life but he's like if you went back in time to april 14th 1865 and shot abraham lincoln

you are not changing the abraham lincoln that is dead in your timeline or if you stopped him from shooting abraham lincoln just because he is alive does not mean he is alive in your timeline he is alive in a new timeline a estuary a river off this river exactly and i think that like that's what you're saying it sounds like and i don't see a scenario where you could go back and like let's use your example push over the lady who's like the un whatever and she breaks her hip that can change everything so like suddenly you you may do that and you may disappear because now you don't exist you would have never been born yeah exactly and that's the grandfather paradox um consistency paradoxes in general only matter if you can change the past.

But in the block universe, you can't. There is no change. Everything is self-consistent. And it's in line with what's called the Novikov self-consistency principle. Igor Novikov developed this, and it's very widely appreciated. He worked with Kip Thorne and Clint Hammer and all these physicists in the 1970s. He wrote a book called the river of time too speaking of estuaries and rivers look at that and yeah there's a circle it's all coming it's all coming together um but in this book he he still looks at it in the context of the

block universe this one river but you can paddle upstream you can fish in these other parts of you know these backwaters that are upstream, but you're not changing anything because there's an inherently self-consistent series of events that will take place. So again, you know, you can do anything you want. You come back, everything's the same because you went back and just did the things that you were always going to do and had done already in those moments that pre-exist you even being alive perhaps but as you see it as one massive block of all events or even just one timeline and again that's where i mostly drew from for this extra tempestual model because it is the most conventionally held

understanding of time and physics and all i can do is work with what we know now like i don't have some insight into the future that I'm bringing back and putting in these books. I'm just working from what we can know now and because the block universe is most conventionally understood and makes the most sense, I think, with regard to this model. There's others who would argue. It's the same dude.

I heard this dude on a podcast recently. I won't say his name because I don't like how people beef and these things. Um, but. Start a rap beef and UFOs. Let's go. We definitely need more of that in the UFO community. Don't we? But this dude was like saying how I send it, say NHI all the time.

And I just throw it around and then say they're future humans. But I'm like, bro, I've literally never done that. You know, read, read a book. Oh, he was calling you out. Yeah, he was calling me out specifically oh shit and he's also cited my research in one of his books and then is like well this all makes sense and i like it but we can't change the past you know and and that is a point that i will acknowledge you know don't say false things about me but i will acknowledge and have acknowledged that there are other ways because we don't understand false things about me, but I will acknowledge and have acknowledged that there

are other ways because we don't understand what time is. It's possible that it is somewhat malleable. You know, the block universe, even though it feels right for a lot of this, it maybe isn't right for all of it. There might be other ways in which the universe is structured, but it's somewhat malleable within that. I talking to a guy in denver about this just a month or two ago and it kind of came to this weird consensus that it almost feels like there's checkpoints like there's all of these different ways that things can happen and do happen where we have agency and free will but there's some sort of checkpoint that you go through that sort of funnels those down and then we sort of branch out from there again and there's some sort of checkpoint that you go through that sort of funnels those down. And then we sort of branch out from there again.

And there's agency and there's the ability to, you know, live your life and feel like you're making decisions. And you do. But then we still come through another checkpoint. Like skiers are going down. Do you have an example of what that would be? Like a checkpoint um so we were talking about individual aspects of our lives and how he he sort of felt like he was on this path he's he's pretty very successful person um uh written books he was one of the the um co-authors of the phenomenon

uh with james fox and and so what we're what we're discussing is sort of his trajectory and co-authors of The Phenomenon with James Fox. And so what we're discussing is sort of his trajectory and how it felt in his life where he had an experience early on. I don't know how much he's talked about this publicly, so I don't want to say things. But he had an experience early on, and it sort of guided a lot of his life, much like mine has in similar capacity.

But there were times when he sort of veered from that path and there were catalysts that brought him back. And he feels like he always had agency and the will to choose, but he always kept kind of coming back to something when it needed to happen. And I guess that's where this checkpoint idea came from. It's a very loose metaphor. Yeah, yeah. But I guess that's where this checkpoint idea came from. It's a very loose metaphor. But I think, I don't know. And it's not because, I guess I'm trying to say that

I don't think anything's black or white. And to say it's the block universe or the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, I don't feel like that's right. It's probably a gray area in between. But until we know what time is, it's impossible to know what that gray area looks like. Yeah. You blow up my head when you start telling that story about being on the plane and being like, that's now. No, that's now. Because the only way we understand reality is based on what we've been told it is. And the people who told us came before us and they figured out less than we did as a side like once you start thinking of it that way this gets weird very quickly that's a good observation you know but like i also think about this all the time

i find myself wondering about it a little bit and how it would play into the i don't know creationismism aspect of our earth here. But, you know, you've talked a little bit about simulation theory and all that. Is there a way that simulation theory could tie into extra-tempestual theory? Absolutely. Yeah, and I mentioned it specifically in that book where I was looking at other explanations for this phenomenon because when it was initially proposed by Nick Bostrom, I think is his name, and then Rizwan Vert kind of took it and made it more approachable by adding the video game analogy and RPGs and PCs. Rizwan's going to be coming in here. Yeah, he's good people too.

I think you'll enjoy that conversation. I've got to hang out with him and, yeah, talk about these same types of things. But he acknowledges too, and Nick Bostrom did initially, that these may be ancestral simulations. So what that implies is that it is future humans doing simulations about their past that we may be experiencing oh whoa so future humans yeah future humans is inherent in that if they're doing you know millions of simulations or billions i don't know how many they could do um it might be us in the future doing these to see what different iterations of the past may have existed. So I think it's inherent in that in a way. I think the crypto terrestrial hypothesis could also play in with this.

I'm not saying – what I've come to think is that there is no one theory that's right. I think they're all kind of right in different ways. Ultra-terrestrial, crypto-terrestrial, simulation, interdimensional, multiverse, future human in the block universe. I'm kind of starting to get the sense that they're all kind of different interpretations of the same thing. And we're reaching a nexus point where we're starting to have the capacity to see the picture in a broad enough way that we can make sense of how and then also ndes out-of-body experiences psychedelic experiences the the beans that people meet in dmt trips um mescaline, ayahuasca.

I really get the sense they're all connected. Religion, too, in the way that we've interpreted but also have developed our worldview, our religious worldview, out of experiences. I kind of am starting to think it's all the same damn thing. And it's almost like they're simulated to connect together. Doesn't it feel like that sometimes yeah when there's just things you can't explain in the universe why this happened and then that happened you know yeah there's a lot of things that could cause that but the you know i see a lot of patterns in my head all the time it's just how my brain thinks and like when i see those patterns happen in completely diametrically

opposed directions yeah it's like i hope i said that right and i don't wild and i i struggle with the simulation idea just because it it seems limiting but i don't mean limiting well i think a lot of it's just a limb a limit to our lexicon we don't have the words necessary to articulate the broader complexity of these situations. So simulation is a good starting point, but kind of going back to what we were talking about before with the different iterations of our consciousness and these different bodies that have these different experiences, like when we come here, when we're put here and when we choose to come here and do this video game to follow that analogy, we have a sense of what we'll be doing and what catalysts will help us grow and to contribute to our own spiritual growth, the growth of ego, the growth of our soul

and the collective whole. It feels like a fucking simulation. It feels like that because you know it's not the real real. There's something more that's real. And if you die for a little bit or you take one too many hits of acid, you also get a glimpse of that. So you know that there's something else, this deeper reality, this deeper pool that we're swimming in that we get glimpses of from time to time. But this thing that we're in, simulation, I don't feel is the right word, but it might be one of the closest words we have for it. Yeah. Do you, based on all the work you've done and things that you've considered, do you, do you think there's like a God?

Do you think there's something on top of all of it? You know, if you would have asked me that even three years ago, it would have been a very different answer, partly because of the trauma of my childhood and what God was and the God that was forced upon me. Right. The nounified God, based on and danny sheehan's conversation um a god that was used a a god whose name was taken in vain to be used to do horrific things

that continues to be used to do horrific things people uh have a mouthful of scripture and a heart full of hate in many ways. But I was only focused on the interpretation of the God, the Son, the Holy Spirit that came through people, and I saw rampant hypocrisy in it. So I grew up in the church. I grew up in a pretty conservative Church of Christ type of environment. But for me, early on, I noticed a difference in what was being said and what was being done. You know, like we can tell our kids whatever we want. They're not going to learn. They don't give a shit.

But they do learn from our actions and they model their behaviors and their response to catalysts and their response to different stimuli based on what we do. And I saw early on, I remember I was probably 10, 11, I was probably 11 years old. And we skipped church because my dad needed help cutting firewood and stacking it before winter came. I was like, wait, we're supposed to be in church. He needs my free what was so free labor is more important than church okay so maybe church isn't that important and then and this was all around the time that he left us for the babysitter and i'm like wait a minute there's something something ain't right here you know so i started asking questions oh wait he left yeah babysitter yeah started a new family um took off with the babysitter i mean she was hot so i get it but no as an adult you know as an adult i couldn't look back on that be like she was a smoke show

so yeah i'll give him a pass on it i love you right now childhood trauma she was hot yeah you're like wood well i i wouldn't now seeing the effects of it on other people but yeah as a man in a man's body you know who does appreciate women i'll make sure mrs masters doesn't listen to this one it's fine she knows um she would she would probably think she was hot too um but yeah and appreciates you know all aspects of adulthood, I should say. I appreciate things now that I couldn't have then. Sure. But I saw the hypocrisy and I continue to see the hypocrisy.

People that have – the people that are the loudest about Jesus tend to act the least like Jesus from what I've seen. And that's a broad generalization. Yeah. I'm not saying everybody's like that. All of my family, with the exception of a few, are still very religious. There's different kinds of religion. There's different levels of hypocrisy. I'm not trying to paint with a broad brush here. I'm just saying that my personal experience, what I saw and what I continue to see is a lot of rampant sort of almost institutionalized hypocrisy i think if i would clarify it for my own opinion i would say that is true for the people who are seeking in any way to use religion

as a source of some sort of exactly yeah right i think god in vain i think a lot of people who are very religious from my experience use it for the the right things because they don't come in here and fucking bother me about it. Absolutely. Or tell me, you need to submit and do this. But those people – The loud ones. Yes. The loud ones are full of shit.

Yes. And it's almost like it's compensating for something. It's always the ones that are so – the preachers that are so against pedophilia they get busted for pedophilia or you know that homosexuality is a sin but you know they're smoking cock in the bathroom at a rest stop you know like but we just keep letting that happen and don't call them on that bullshit and it pisses me off yeah so anyway um i have a long somewhat jaded history with the way I view religion and the way I still do. But to answer your question in a long roundabout, probably heretical kind of way, is that I do believe there is an infinite creator.

And I think that's what a lot of these people also think. We share that in common. But the way we go about it uh in all the different religions all the different ways that we we see the spirits and everything animism polytheism monotheism and all the different ways we've conceptualized and honored and embraced and cherished the universe um manifests in many different ways but i think it's all seeking the same path back to that infinite creator. So yes, I do believe in that type of source energy, infinite knowledge, infinite energy, infinite light,

infinite love, but I don't really know what to make of it outside of that. I think Jian's right, we can't nounify it, and when we do, it causes a lot of problems i just try to live my life humble and what i don't know yeah you know and like the thing that makes me really curious about this space and looking at you know are there aliens or the future humans and stuff is that the idea that there could be layers between me and whoever the creator is i'm totally open to that because like look how big the fucking galaxy is.

You don't think that that's possible? I certainly think it is. But they don't have to be mutually exclusive. No, not at all. And when I talk to guys, like that was one thing with Lou Elizondo. People pick apart a lot of different things he says. But when I asked him about that and you could – I, unless you were sitting here, too, like when I asked him if he through everything he's done, like, does he believe in God at this point? Like this whole just like the blood like went from his face in like a beautiful way.

And he was like, oh, my God. Yes. And he's like, yeah, it is actually strengthened my belief in that. It's just he I don't want to put words in his mouth or try to repeat exactly what he said that was right at the end of that episode it was like the last five minutes or so people want to check that out 237 but like he you could see that he just understood there was way more to it than he had previously known just in his life before and did he say that was tied to this seeking in the UFO realm at all? Were they related? Well, if what you mean by that is,

does he think that the UFOs are spiritual? No, no, no, no, no. Just did the, so what I'm saying is I'm, I'm kind of tying it into what we were talking about earlier, how the UFO in a physical sense, maybe a pathway to the metaphysical into a seeking of understanding what lies beyond that i'm and that's what happened to me like you take my highly jaded um just really unpleasant experience with organized religion but ufo still brought me back there i never thought i

would be back interesting i'm just asking if if he said anything, not that I expect you to get into his mind and know everything he thinks, but if in that conversation there was some sort of pathway there, like it exists for me. I think it's different. Yeah. And again, I don't want to put words in his mouth. What I'll say is the words he did use were that it was strengthened through this. Yeah. Like his faith and that it all has to start with something right right and any and the the peace that he had with that this is a guy who i don't think has peace with a lot of things that he has to talk about

for reasons people can guess or you know bet on at home like, when it came to that, pure peace with it. And, you know, I do think that as someone who's never seen any of this stuff or been read in on any of this stuff or things like that, you know, I can only imagine how you might react if something were confirmed to be not of this present 2024 or whatever you know but if you can do that without it make without it ripping apart everything you already thought to be true which is like ontological shock if you could experience that knowledge without that happening i would imagine there has to be some form of like zen that comes with that. And I can only imagine that, but that's how it comes across to me. Yeah, same.

Yeah, absolutely the same. And I think, you know, in these conversations I've been having with my psychiatrist lately, I don't think we're supposed to talk about stuff like this. I don't know. I've never had a psychiatrist until recently. Well, I think you're allowed to talk about stuff like this i don't know never had a psychiatrist until recently but well i think you're allowed to talk about what you do in there right it's just the psychiatrist can't talk about it no i just mean as far as social stigma like even saying that i have a psychiatrist seems like i guess everybody does these days because we all need one because society's fucked um but in these conversations it was interesting to see how she dealt with a lot of

this stuff that I'm telling her, because I don't know what her background is, you know, and a lot of it's arguably quite weird. But it's been amazing the types of questions she's asked and how much it's helped me grow. And my understanding a lot of that is related to, I've found through these conversations, a new appreciation for the spiritual aspects of our existence, which I was a strict materialist, reductionist, imperialist. Trying to fuck around and take over a nation? Yeah, I took over Australia for a while. I still feel bad about it. Actually, my ancestors might have. Who knows in a past life?

Empiricist maybe was the word I was looking for there. You get the point. You get the point. And anyway, in any case, this was all just so outside. And actually, what's interesting about your question about how my wife took it is she was always the one that had a deeper understanding of energy and chakras and just different aspects of our metaphysical existence that I had sort of you know I didn't write them off but I just didn't I wasn't compelling to me I wasn't that interested in it and and now you know I feel like I've sort of evolved into her in a way and a lot of other people have been further down this path and I probably sound like a noob talking about this stuff but to me

it is sort of at the root of a lot of it or at least it's it feels more important or equally important to these questions of what are these craft in a physical sense how do they work how they have anti-gravity propulsion systems how do they manipulate time and space and there's a lot of indications they do um but a lot of that I feel is kind of, yeah, a gateway to a different way of seeking and understanding, even if we can't really fully understand it. What do your colleagues make of all the work you do? Like, let's start with anthropology specifically. Like, it's not like all anthropologists are working on future humans or aliens and things like that. Like what kind of – what's the feedback there? Yeah, it's pretty – a lot of just ignoring, kind of waiting and seeing, I think.

My colleagues who know me and know my research ethic and my research program are supportive even. Like, oh, this is cool. You know, there's a guy who published a number of papers with respectable journals, Frontiers in Neuroanatomy, Journal of Anatomy, and really prominent researcher in Spain. And I just sent him a book on a whim. I bought it on Amazon Spain and sent it to him just because i wanted to know you know like what did he think about all of this and he actually in a a publicity

announcement for a new journal article coming out he even referenced future humans as part of the public announcement like a little homage to the book that I wrote. So, and then he sent it to me. He's like, Hey, I read your book. I think this is really interesting. And look what I did. I did a funny, yeah, he put a funny little thing in there. It's like, uh, cause it was about if we could go back and take MRI scans of, because he does a lot of paleo neuro anatomy and all we have is the wrinkles and endocast. So we can see the shape of the brain and we can see parts of of nanot joke in there. That's one example. A lot of them just kind of ignore it. Not really a lot of outward criticism because I did write my first book for my colleagues. And that's why it's called Dense, because I needed it to make a case that was understandable and scientific and fastidious

in all of the arguments, because that's who I'm writing it for. I wanted everybody to be able to read it, so I made it readable, and I had it peer-reviewed by professors who taught quantum mechanics, thermodynamics, another PhD in biological anthropology, PhD in biology. So I wanted to make sure the science was there, but then I also had beta readers who could be like, okay, this is confusing as shit. Can you please rephrase this? It's hard. It's really hard to find that middle ground, but I feel like the book did a decent job. I recommend the audio books because then you can just hear it. You know, you don't

have to stop and like look up the word, but I define the things. I try to make it more understandable in the speed, the cadence, and how I explain things, which is what I have to do for a living as a professor. You know, we want things to be understandable to our students. So I think the audio book does that without making it feel like a slog, you know, because for people without a science background, it can, but my academic colleagues read it and they say, this makes sense, you know? And as far as my institutional colleagues, it's been great. They asked me to teach an honors class about my first book. The chancellor of the entire university shook my hand in 2019 and said, I saw an article in Fox News about your book.

Congratulations. I got a research and scholarship award from the dean's office right before I went on sabbatical in 2022. And at that point, 90% of my research was about this UFO question. So yeah, I feel supported and I feel like people understand it and respect it, but there's still a lot of just, let's kind of sit back, let's wait and see what everybody else decides before we attack them or praise them, you know? And that's kind of funny. And I think I mentioned off camera earlier that there's also a difference across fields, like physicists. Yeah, you're talking about other scientists. Yeah, physicists, there's more of them involved at different universities outwardly. Psychologists hate this shit, especially the abduction phenomenon i'm serious like it's so weird it's like you know you study people and their their mindset their

mentality you'd think they'd be the most interested but no they're like we know the brain we know psycho behavior everything else is bullshit so get out of here with that ufo talk i know it's crazy and there's there's obviously exception there'sliers. But as far as fields and the perception of this from these various disciplines, it's a mixed bag. It's really kind of interesting how some are galvanized and some are just like, nah, get out of here with that. You were saying like cosmologists are totally against it? Generally, that's what I found.

Why is that versus physicists? Maybe I'm taking Neil deGrasse Tyson and applying that unfairly to other cosmologists. found i don't know and maybe i'm just you know maybe i'm taking neil degrasse tyson and and applying that unfairly to other cosmologists but i personally what i think it is is they don't have any idea what they're doing because they don't know what time is they they also many think that space is an emergent phenomenon so if you're trying to explain the origins of the cosmos and how everything works but you don't know what time and space are, you're kind of just doing it with your pants down, you know? So I think maybe it's an overcompensation of a lot of their root founding principles being based in something that they don't yet understand.

And then trying to overcompensate and say, well, we understand everything. And actually, you're wrong. And UFOs don't exist. That's just my own personal feeling on it. I don't see why any one group would be so staunchly opposed to something. But I don't know. There's a lot of variation out there. I think a big part of it, I know you were saying some of this wears off,

but I think a big part of it is the is the long-term weaponizationist stigma that has not worn off yeah people who who have six degrees and have been studying something for 20 30 40 50 years don't care if cbs airs a five minute interview about ufos they don't care if congress who they view as very dumb people are having hearing about it you know not to say those things aren't noteworthy they are it's just like and and i feel like you would understand this better than i do because you know a lot more of these people than i do but from the outside like having spoken with some sitting in the seat that you sit in right now like they're on it the smart ones in those fields are on a different wavelength and and i think

sometimes that can work against them a little bit yeah and something we face in any field is that you get attached to an idea yes and you can't not you can't say you were wrong you know or you can't say well wait what if because you got to double down You know, we see this all the time with naming a new hominin species. It's like, well, I said it was this. I don't see this. You see this. Right. Good point.

Good point. Within my field. Yes. We within my field see this all the time. And it changed. Recently, this guy named Lee Berger challenged the whole system with this rising star cave find of Homo naledi. You probably heard about this five or six years ago it was all over the news homo naledi n-a-l-i-d-i e-d-i i think e-d-i but it was this really interesting find um it looked really primitive so initially i thought it was really

old but then there's some aspects that are what we call mosaic evolution where there's some indications that it didn't all evolve at the same time but different parts evolve faster and so i think with this one the hands were more primitive but there's certain elements of its post-cranial morphology that were more advanced so um the whole the whole thing they've been done it's the good old white boys of paleoanthropology would take all these fossils hide them in their lab, study them for 10 years, and then publish in Nature or Science. That's how it was done. Everyone's expected to do that. He finds these fossils. It's really hard to get to, Eric, going down like tiny people. He had to

hire tiny paleoanthropologists to even get down there to get these things out and study them. But he did it differently. He had a group of people come in research them fast and publish in open access journals everybody's like what the hell are you doing that's not how we do it you know but but it's important because we sometimes have to challenge those things in order to get information that can be broadly disseminated and there's a lot of pushback they did other things too they're talking about um whether they buried their dead did that fire were they making um petroglyphs on walls. So there were other controversial things too, but I think it's important to always challenge those things in your field. I'm saying this as an example that I think

can be put out more broadly because you don't always do it right. Just because that's the way people did it before you doesn't mean it's the best way to do it. And I think we're seeing that within a lot of individual specializations in various different fields, that this question of UFOs makes you reassess what you were doing, how you were doing it. And some people just aren't willing to even say, yes, that could be a thing because now I have to do all the work of figuring out how it fits with the way I think about stuff and the way my field does things. And that is changing though. We see it changing and I think it's good and it's going to have to be that way. We're not at a point where we can all be a needle to grass Tyson and say, nope, that's wrong because I know everything about the universe. Rather, we have to say, we don't know shit about the universe. That thing

is clear proof that that's true. So let's acknowledge the reality of that and figure out what we don't know. And also the people who have the most attention, for better or worse, depending on the context of the situation, their opinions are going to ring more, right? And so Neil, I disagree with him on how he looks at that. He's allowed to have that opinion, though. Super smart guy. Super accomplished. I'm not trying to bash him individually, but that mentality is harmful, I think.

Yeah, when it then extrapolates across a lot of people. I do think the good thing about that one in the forum of open opinions that we now live in in the world is that when he said this opinion plenty of times before, but when it really got attention was when he was on with joe rogan who has the opposite opinion and joe rogan in my opinion gave a better case than he did in response to that so people at home you know it's not like neil degrasse tyson is telling you you have to think exactly like i think he's saying i really think this thinks it strongly the other guy comes back and says something different okay great decide for. Decide for yourself at home, you know, and, and I'm with you that you don't want to like, you don't want to shoo off stuff, but there are going to be people who

with the right intentions, you know, maybe have an opinion that ends up being wrong or that we don't like, you know, and, and that's like, I had Lawrence Krauss in here. Lawrence has some very different opinions than I do on the nature of the universe and everything. But the guy, you know, he's a ball breaker. It's a lot of fun. Yeah. Smart motherfucker. Yeah, he is a smart motherfucker.

And I like, yeah, he's a ball breaker. He says what he thinks, you know. And nobody knows. Nobody knows really anything with regard to the nuances of these questions. That's right. And all we can do is ask them. And I think, yeah, that, that format for debating things, like speaking of Rogan, he had like Flint Dibble and Graham Hancock on like, that's healthy, you know, let's do more of that. Let's present

in a broad format of broad reaching format, like that conversation where people can present ideas and let others decide, or at least in the dispute, we gain knowledge and move the needle further. So yeah, I think that is healthy, but you do have people like, I mean, we've, this has come up a few times in our conversation day where they just turn off. They do like, Nope, not real. You know what? I saw a quote from Keanu Reeves. I don't know if this is one of those fake quotes that's attributed to him so maybe we can look this up but he's like i'm paraphrasing he's like i've reached a point in my life where it's not worth it for me to argue with people if you tell me two plus two equals five sounds great have an awesome day bro yeah like god bless you yeah

and and it's sad that rings in my head a lot i know and it's sad because it almost is the opposite of what we need to be doing but i think it's also what we need to do as individuals to realize it doesn't matter there's certain people that it just doesn't matter you're not going to educate them you're not you're not going to change their way of thinking i'm not in and and I don't say this to be smug or arrogant or anything like that. But I'm not interested in people like that. Yeah. Like if you are just going to be completely closed-minded on stuff and tell me how it is, this might be a bad thing to say. But like a lot of the time, it's someone that maybe they have a few less brain cells too.

And that's not always the case. I've seen people, plenty of people who are brainwashed, but it's like, it's just not worth my time, man. Yeah. I mean, and it's hard because yeah, there is an inherent sense of elitism or smugness when we say these things, but it also is in the context of us protecting our own psyche because we realize that there's just no point. Yeah. You know, and I, yeah, I don't know. It's hard, especially as an educator, because you want to educate everyone, but my job's only to educate them in a classroom about things that I spent my life learning about. Right. You know, outside of that, I can apply those things and I do on a regular basis.

There's a lot of aspects of this phenomenon that overlap with what I have researched and taught about my entire academic career. But I think what we're talking about and what Keanu Reeves likely was talking about is just having a conversation with people that aren't willing to open their aperture. They're not willing to open their minds. They have a sense of reality. That's it. I don't care what anybody says. And so, yeah, obviously, inherently, you're not a very intelligent person if you're not willing to open your mind to other ways of thinking or doing or understanding. And yeah, it's the Dunning-Kruger effect. The people that know the most feel like

they know the least. People that know the least feel like they know the most and they're very loud about it. So, yeah, just I feel the same way. I just wanted to add that qualifier because it does innately sound a little high and mighty soapboxy. But we all know the people we're talking about. And I don't think we can even say it's one group or one demographic or one belief system, one political group. It's just people that have closed their minds down to this one little tiny bit. I still think it's a minority of people though. That's the thing.

I think so too. I think we are more exposed to it because people have a power behind a keyboard to put that out there. That's true. And they're incentivized to be more extreme. They're very loud. Right? And so when you walk outside, stick your finger up in the air and feel the wind it's not like that out there and when i have conversations with people every day people are

they they're much more open you know and and i i think that's i think that's healthier so hopefully that can win out but michael we we got to do a quick patreon episode on i love some of some of your some of the cases that you covered in your book and also some of the work you're going to be doing. But for now, we're going to have the links to your books down in the description, as well as any other links you want to pump in there. You let us know. I could think of forgetting one that I was trying to mention earlier, but if I can't even remember it now, maybe there's no point in sticking it in there. It

might've just been something that popped up in conversation that isn't super relevant anyway, but yeah. When you think of it later, send it to us and we'll stick it in there. It might have just been something that popped up in conversation that isn't super relevant anyway. But yeah. When you think of it later, send it to us and we'll stick it in there. 100%. But thank you so much for doing this. Dude, this has been so fun. Thank you for having me. It's been an awesome conversation.

Appreciate it. Of course. Love your work, man. It's really fascinating stuff. Thanks. It's been fun. Everybody else, you know what it is. Give it a thought.

Get back to me. Peace. Thank you guys for watching the episode. Before you leave, please be sure to hit that subscribe button and smash that like button on the video. It's a huge help. And also if you're over on Instagram, be sure to follow the show at Julian Dory podcast, or also on my personal page at Julian D. Dory. Both links are in the description below. Finally, if you'd like to catch up on our latest episodes, use the Julian Dory podcast playlist link in the description below. Thank you.