Julian Dorey Podcast - #266 - UFO Coverup: Pentagon is Hiding Holy Grail Evidence | James Fox

Episode Date: January 15, 2025

SPONSORS: - Z-BIOTICS: https://zbiotics.com/JULIAN (***TIMESTAMPS in description below) ~ James Fox returns for the third time on Julian Dorey Podcast to discuss his latest Documentary, "The Program" which goes behind the Congressional hearings to leave skeptics astounded by new assertions from a growing chorus of high-level insiders who insist there is definitive proof we are not alone. Jason Sands is a new UFO whistleblower, who has recently come forward with claims about his involvement in a 20-year black budget program and a surreal Alien encounter. BUY/RENT “The Program": https://geni.us/TheProgram PATREON https://www.patreon.com/JulianDorey FOLLOW JULIAN DOREY INSTAGRAM (Podcast): https://www.instagram.com/juliandoreypodcast/ INSTAGRAM (Personal): https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey/ X: https://twitter.com/julianddorey GUEST LINKS X: https://x.com/jamescfox IG: https://www.instagram.com/jamesfoxdirector/?hl=en Watch "Momen of Contact": https://shorturl.at/tSgOQ Watch "The Phenomenon": https://shorturl.at/9RWvG LISTEN to Julian Dorey Podcast Spotify ▶ https://open.spotify.com/show/5skaSpDzq94Kh16so3c0uz Apple ▶ https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/trendifier-with-julian-dorey/id1531416289 ****TIMESTAMPS**** 00:00 - James Fox from The Phenomenon to ‘The Program’, D.C. Investigation 10:01 - James Disastrous Film Company Lawsuit, 26:54 - Most Satisfying UFO Documentary (Devastating Setbacks) 31:21 - Pivotal UFO Interview Moments, Disclosure vs UFO Evidence 38:51 - Reads Congressional Source Document, Photographs & Evidence 46:31 - Intel Agency Individuals & Obfuscation, Evidence Behind Jason Sand’s Encounter 52:03 - Telepathic Communication Residue, Devil’s Advocate & Possibly Being Lied Too 01:00:30 - Why Does Jason Sand’s Have Immunity vs Coworkers, Top Secret Information SCIF (James Fox) 01:10:45 - Special Access Programs & How Information is Controlled & Not Leaked, Black Budget Programs 01:21:21 - Hearing Craziest Stories During Black Budget Program CREDITS: - Host, Producer, and Editor: Julian Dorey - In-Studio Producer: Alessi Allaman - https://www.youtube.com/@UCyLKzv5fKxGmVQg3cMJJzyQ Julian Dorey Podcast Episode 266 - James Fox & Jason Sands Music by Artlist.io Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This song is coming at me, I'm gonna defend myself. I damn near punted Ollie through, not Ollie, the duke through the window by accident. I thought it was a bag, I was about to throw that shit on. Like, I did not feel a functioning fucking dog in that bag. I almost went to my bed like, oh, yeah. That would have been hilarious. Oh, my God. All right.

Well, it is great to have you back, Mr. James C. Fox. It's been a couple years since you and I recorded those two podcasts when you had a moment of contact out. Yes. I always say a moment of contact. It's a moment of contact A Moment of Contact out. Yes. I always say A Moment of Contact. It's Moment of Contact. It's way better. Yes. But obviously since then, there has been a lot going on in your life personally, and you have been making a brand new documentary in the process that has now come out I think like a month ago.

Been doing a podcast tour and all that. There is a lot to unpack from that film, the program. The link will be down in the description of that as well. you have brought here today mr jason sands as well yes who was featured in the documentary and has been in the middle of like the internet controversy around some of the things that you have come out publicly i believe in april and then extensively through the documentary so we will get into all that today but it's great to have you back sir up and now thanks for having me back on i um one thing i want to say is that we can get into this later i wanted to provide uh mr sands an opportunity to provide some defense uh you know provoke

provide some of his credentials his military records things of that nature because i am the one that accidentally ousted his name. He actually wasn't intending to come forward publicly. So I owe that to him, an opportunity. And because of my mistake, he's had to, you know, face some of the consequences. And it's been rough for him. And, you know, I've called him up, what are you talking about? You sound like a crazy guy. Please stop. You know, but I do want to, I'm excited to have this opportunity to let him at least have a voice and speak a little bit about, you know, his background and what his experience, but we can get into that later. Absolutely. We have the military records here

and everything. So we'll get through all that. We'll go through your whole story. But as far as the program goes, first of all, great documentary, as always. You did a great job. But this is something we had talked about this when you were here with us last. Like you were in the process of making it. decide, like after doing Moment of Contact, which is a specific case down in Brazil, what made you decide to come up and really go straight into D.C. and try to focus on the government angle more than anything with the UFP phenomenon? Well, I think it was kind of a natural progression when I did the phenomenon, right? There was some discussion of crash retrieval, there was Roswell, and there was hint sprinkled throughout, a couple of hints, one of which was when Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid

admitted on camera during my sit-down interview with him that what had been released, the 2017 New York Times article revealing the secret Pentagon UFO program and some of the tapes that were walked out of the Pentagon, was merely the tip of the iceberg, right? So that was a very profound and big, significant statement by the former Senate Majority Leader. I mean, he was a household name, right? So when I did Moment of Contact, that was, in my opinion, and I could be wrong, I think it may be a little bit ahead of its time because I remember people calling me going, James, you have this unprecedented level of access with Intel folks. Senator Harry Reid just publicly endorsed your movie that you feature Close Encounters of the Third Kind in.

You've really been pushing the envelope. You've got a level of acceptance and access that you're quite honestly going to jeopardize by reporting on this alleged UFO crash case in Virginia, Brazil, where these live aliens are walking around the town being captured. You're going to sound like a nutcase. And people are going to say, up the dosage of the medication that you're not on, right? Probably rightfully so. You know, honestly. So they were like like are you sure this is what you want to do and I was like you know what

I totally understand that position because I was there I remember when I was investigating when I was mapping out my second let me repeat that my second UFO documentary turned out to be out of the blue I never have a title for things

when i first get started on them and i had a partner tim colman and it was probably 1999 maybe 2000 but probably 1999 and we were mapping out the film like a concept idea as a new broad brush strokes it's like oh we want to focus on bent waters and let's let's let's revisit this amazing case in Phoenix, 1997, March 13th, that massive flyover. And then he goes, oh, yeah, mate, and there's this bloody amazing case that takes place in Brazil with these live aliens and this UFO crash, and they're walking through the bloody town.

And I'm thinking to myself. That's Charlie, and it's always Sonny. They threw the town! I'm not kidding you. I literally said to myself, I said to myself, oh, my God, I got to pick a new partner. I just, this guy's lost his mind. I'm not kidding you. I was like, oh, my God, I made a dreadful mistake.

Shit. And I thought to myself, I'm not going to give this case one second of my time. Okay? Because, come on man a tall tale ufo crash live aliens are you kidding me multiple live aliens how could the whole world not know about it this is impossible this is an utter and complete waste of time no when I finished, what was it? Years later, 22 years later, 23 years later, I finished the movie.

Tim was living in Egypt and he reached out to me. I hadn't heard from him in a while. He goes, bloody well, mate, you just made a film about that entire case that I told you about in the late 90s. What the bloody hell?

He goes, you didn't believe me and you thought i was bloody crazy and i was like yes i did and i'm sorry and i'm gonna give you a special thanks credit so i did i gave him a special thanks credit but isn't that funny it was like so anyway so because people asked me i was like well how did you get into the program? It's like, well, I never anticipated when I made Moment of Contact about a crash retrieval program, which I found out very late in the game, that the United States government was involved because – With Virginia. Yeah.

I kind of heard like rumblings of it. But while we were there the last time, in fact, Alessi was there with us. Alessi was producing the doc, wasn't he? Yeah, he was down there. A boy in the studio. He was in with us alessi was producing the doc would he was down there in the studio trenches he was down there in the trenches we almost got shot in the face yes and he filmed that he did and also he had the best haircut of all time this is the greatest thing i've ever seen so when you're watching moment of contact and you see the dude with the clipboard with the fucking fire head or whatever that's a lesson yeah yeah and uh that was probably there were there were

two times when i had my life threatened in production one was when i was releasing photographs that were given to me about the fishing community when i did a film on the bp oil spill and they were using unprecedented amounts of corexit and the guy head of fisheries at uh gave me these these these images that quite frankly were going to devastate his community. But he was like, I can't in good faith let the general public not know about what's going on because of the poison. And he said, you were real my identity, boy. I'll hunt you down and slit your throat.

Do we have an understanding? I swear to God he said that to me. I was like, I believe you. Yes, sir, we do. And then the second time was when. They never going to find you, boy. It was like Alabama. He's like, we're going to hunt you down and slit your throat.

Do we have an understanding? Did I even have a comment down there? Yes, sir. We definitely have an understanding. Guys, before we go on here, I want to make sure you know this is the first of two episodes that are coming with James and Jason. The second episode is coming Friday at 12 p.m. Eastern after this video was put out, so two days after this one. And essentially this first one is an hour and a half covering the program and giving a little bit of color commentary background on Jason. And the second one is going to be almost three hours with James and Jason, where we go through Jason's entire life story from childhood on.

I had announced this on social media over the weekend over on X, but I know you guys on YouTube didn't know that. So I wanted to make sure you knew another episode was coming. If you want to check it out before it drops, it is available on Patreon right now. Link in my description. Back to the episode. So anyway, then the next time, of course, I don't speak Portuguese. I mean, now I can extract some words, but not in that moment when we confront the alleged driver, Eric Lopes, at his home, which I found out all the badass, hardcore Brazilian researchers, one of which would pack the gun everywhere he went.

Pacaccini was like, you went to his house? Are you out of your mind? None of us would go to his house. I was like, well, nobody told me that. And this is one of the witnesses, to be clear. This is one of the witnesses that allegedly was driving the car during the second capture of a live alien. Yes. Wow. God, it even sounds crazy. It does.

It does sound crazy. It does. Anyway, so my point is this. I could have never in 100 million years, after all the pushback I got when I said I was going to make this documentary on this alleged crash case that happened in 1996 in Virginia, Brazil, that months after releasing the film, there was going to be an open congressional hearing with a bipartisan group of lawmakers listening to the testimony of a gentleman, high intelligence officer, under oath, saying that it was a crash retrieval program.

Because I found out the Americans' involvement. Again, I'd heard little rumblings of it over the 12-year period. But the most compelling aspect was that the flight control officer came forward publicly on camera in a podcast saying, I saw USAF. And I was like, what? USAF? The United States Air Force.

The Air Force. Plane coming in without Brazilian government authorization. That's you guys. And he was not supposed to let the thing land. And then a high-level government officer. This is what he says on camera. This guy Marco. I'm trying to think of his name.

And when you're with the police department, you're with the military in Brazil. If you're with the fire department, you're with the military in Brazil. If you're with the fire department, you're with the military in Brazil. You're air control, flight control officer, you're with the military in Brazil, right? So this guy sees his plane coming in. He's like, they don't have authorization. I'm not supposed to let this plane land. It's USAF, United States Air Force, January 20th, 1996, coming into Campinas.

It was going to land in Sao Paulo. Then it stopped and it diverted and went to Campinas. And a military officer, I know it's funny. Camp Penas, Virginia. The number of times you said that in episode 139 and people were like, I feel like he's saying penis every time. Camp Penas, I know. Can't make this shit up. So I know.

I know. It sounds silly. But anyway, he said that a higher level military officer came in and let the plane land. Plane landed. I wasn't sure if it was one helicopter or two helicopters. Went over to Virginia, loaded some stuff on, came back, loaded the plane, boo, back to the United States. I was like, oh, wow, that really solidifies my belief that the Americans were involved. So now it's personal, right?

So when I'm starting an investigation, I was already going to go to D.C. and start asking questions. But David Grush opened the door for me. Yeah. Like it was wide open. Now I'm damn straight going to ask those questions because I came to that conclusion, not because he said it, but because my boots on the ground,

which is what I think is the best case in modern history because most of the people are still alive. Yeah. It was really cool to see this as your friend in real time because you went down to D.C. pre-grush. You were there in February 2023 getting initial interviews and things like that. And then it's almost like this movie you were working on, the stage of life set perfectly. Unbelievable. I can get all this now? Unbelievable.

I know. A little bit of divine intervention. Could have never. And not only that, but who could have possibly have staged or orchestrated a drone invasion, a UAP invasion, to coincide with the release of my movie? People were calling me going, what kind of budget did you have to raise to do that? Much appreciated. I had people calling me going, how did you orchestrate a drone invasion? Actually, you know, James, a little side note here.

I just don't want to get this lost in the picture because you're such a humble guy and you've only said like a little bit publicly. But obviously us all talking, unless you and me behind the scenes over the last couple of years, we were aware of some of the things you were dealing with from a production standpoint to get this done. But for people out there who want some details now that it is behind you, despite everything you all said to give up as well, but what went down there? Because this last documentary, Moment of Contact, you came on my podcast it really exploded and then joe rogan had you on and it went to yeah a whole different stratosphere literally right behind avatar worldwide and then suddenly they're like oh we can't pay you yeah i have to tell you about this game-changing product i use before a night out with drinks it's called z biotics pre-alcohol pre-alcohol is the

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Thank you to Zbiotics for sponsoring this episode and our good times. So that's just one of the things i was dealing with so um excuse me the production company that i'd signed to deal with that probably remain nameless whatever you can look that stuff up because uh we're gonna take the bad out later. Fuck them up, James. Don't worry. So they got acquired by a larger company, and the larger company stopped paying royalties. First, they were really late. Then it got later, and I was getting really nervous. I was like, oh, this is going to be fine. Don't worry.

We're transferring all the stuff over, and there's a little transition period, and it's just a little bit of a hiccup, and everything's going to be fine. Don't worry. We're just transferring all the stuff over and there's a little transition period and it's just a little bit of a hiccup and everything's going to iron itself out. Everything's going to be fine. Well, I didn't feel that way. So that starts happening and I rely. And they had directly or indirectly all my movies distributed through this company, distribution

company. All of them, right? So I had The Phenomenon. I had Moment of Contact. Out of the Blue. the phenomenon, I had moment of contact, out of the blue, I know what I saw, 50 years to denial. They were indirectly through another individual. But in any case, so this starts happening. And while I'm trying to get interviews on the Hill paralleling this disaster nightmare, I'm trying to get interviews on the Hill, and I'm literally having to send photos of production stills of me making the phenomenon because staff members of Congress were going, no, hang on a second. This person said they made the phenomenon.

What? I'm like, no, I made the phenomenon. What are you talking about? This guy said what? And they're like, yeah, well, he already came through and interviewed. I was like, no. And I was sending literally production stills. And then there were all these military folks, intel folks, that were told not to meet with me, to meet with this other individual who will remain nameless.

This is going on. So I'm getting blocked. I'm getting all my financial, like, support, all my finances completely devastated. And then paralleling that, I'm getting someone who's claiming responsibility for having done the phenomenon, who's in the process of getting all these interviews on the Hill, and I'm having to explain who the hell I am. Well, thank God Christopher Mellon stepped in and started straightening the truth out. No, James made the phenomenon. We love the Mellon family. They're always going to straighten it out.

Well, Chris Mellon really stepped up the plate for me, and I was really grateful for having him to do that. So he was telling people, no, James made it. And then all these Intel folks that were told not to meet with me, it was just a nightmare. I just thought it felt like I was being extinguished. I mean, I just was like, I remember staring at the ceiling. The level of stress, I'm seeing the sales report come in.

And remind you, I spent hundreds of thousands of dollars making every movie, right? So I'm always majorly in debt when I finish a movie. And I'm seeing all these sales reports coming in. I'm not getting paid. And I'm not getting paid. And I'm not getting paid. Now I'm borrowing money to sue the company. And I'm trying to make this film and

i remember like staring at the ceiling i'm not kidding this was so devastating i'm staring at the ceiling trying to go to sleep at night i'm drinking a whiskey just to like calm my nerves and i'd fall asleep and i'd wake up at like four o'clock in the morning and i was like oh my god i had the worst nightmare god thank god that was it oh my god no and then i'd slowly wake up and this was happening week after week and the problem is is like i didn't have any end in sight there was no resolution inside i didn't know how it was going to play out right so i actually called a buddy of mine and i borrowed fifty thousand dollars from him so i could sue the company i was just trying to go through all the different you know i didn't know what to do and

Finally the lawyer and this went on for so many months I won't bore your audience with the details, but finally this lawyer buddy my buddy Jesse calls me and he goes look, bro I'd like to continue taking your money, but I'm just telling you where this is headed I'm looking at their financials and this is not going in the right direction What's gonna happen is they're about to declare bankruptcy, and then your assets, which are their assets, are now going to be in the hands of another company that you have no leverage with. And you're lower on the totem pole. And I'm lower on the totem pole.

And now you're not only going to owe me a bunch of money, you're never going to get that money they owe you, which is lottery money, right? And I hate to say this, James, but I'm just going to give you the best advice. Play the game on the board, not the one in your head. It's a good lawyer. Take this deal, sign off. You're never going to get this money again. I need you to respond via email that you understand that you will never, ever get this money. It's gone forever. I have to get this distribution

company to send, their legal department has to send all the various platforms a legal letter to pull them down. You think if they start paying – if they stop paying me that automatically the rights would revert back to nothing? No. Nope. Every month I'm watching those sales reports and they're going in the pocket of a billionaire. Oh, God, the level of frustration I was experiencing is like off the charts, man. Yeah, and I want people to understand that too. I mean, they're hearing it from you right now.

But like, you know, for you to have all the success of that film and essentially never see more than a couple of dimes from it. I still owe $100,000 on that film. I actually was going to pay that back to one of my producers, guy Donnie. And Donnie's been great to me over well over a decade. And I spent it thinking I had money coming in. And then he's like, well, why'd you spend it? I was like, well, I spent it on the program thinking that I didn't know I was going to get ripped off. I'm so sorry. So I said, why don't I just give you an executive producer credit in the program and I that i didn't know i was going to get ripped off i'm so sorry so i said why don't i just give you an executive producer credit in the program and i'll pay you back when i make

money from the program and he was cool thank god he was cool with that but but i remember at the time thinking it was so devastating first of all i like to hike i was like i go for my hikes every day just to kind of clear my headspace because the level of stress was just beyond just anything like, oh my God. So I would really get out there and hike. And I said, okay, James, this is a very low point in your career. I've had all this success and now I'm in this position. I can't believe this, but I'm going to take this frustration, this anger, and I'm going to focus it. I'm going to laser like precision and I'm going to produce a really good documentary. So I took all of that energy and I focused it into the program. And I worked 16, 17-hour days to the point where I could barely walk getting my ass back to the edit studio. And I pushed myself

to the brink of death to produce the program. Listen, and I want to say this as someone who's seen a lot of this behind the scenes and what happened here. You know, one of my favorite clips we ever recorded is not a public clip. It was actually a 15-minute Patreon episode when you were in my – we were still in my parents' house back then when you were there two years ago. I drove down there. And that's the other thing. By the way, people want to know what a stand-up guy james fox is he calls me at 4 45 a.m from the runway in vermont going they said the engine doesn't work on the plane they're gonna see if they can give it a go and i'm like that that doesn't sound promising at all obviously they gave it a go didn't work didn't crash the plane and then flight

gets canceled and we had a lessee who still lived in florida at the. He had flown up for this, and he was as broke as I was. So this was like a big deal. And so we're like, oh, my God, this is going to get canceled. And you're like, fuck it, I'm driving. So you came down for two days, didn't even let me pay for your hotel. And we ended up recording for about five hours and 45 minutes on the second day. We did two podcasts. And in the middle of that which by the way thank you

for doing that but yeah thanks in the middle of that we had like a 15 minute patreon episode where you walked us through essentially your career journey and then especially your eight-year odyssey and that's what i'll call it making the phenomenon which for my money is the greatest ufo documentary ever made fucking phenomenal it took you it took you 25 years before that to get anywhere near the respect you deserved you work jobs from valet into plumbing to whatever it was all these things just to support yourself pay for these documentaries yourself around the world try to make something great and then finally shout out to joe rogan for giving you the respect on the phenomenon back in 2020 and putting you into the other sphere.

You then took all that money, put your money where your mouth is, put it into Moment of Contact. And so again, like when I see how close it came to you almost having to be like, if this doesn't work with the phenomenon, I got to stop. Like my 25-year dream is over. It was unbelievable. To see that work and then see you get all the attention you deserve, make this amazing documentary moment of contact. And it's supposed to be your now crowning moment where like you can kind of go on in life and do the things you love and not have to worry about finances and stuff. To see that stripped from you by scumbags, which is what they are. And to have you.

And they're not going to have any. There's no repercussions. No repercussions. No legal repercussions what so ever to see that stripped from you though discuss me that said the inspiration that you are to me like that clip i go back and watch that sometimes it's still on patreon it was the first patreon episode we ever posted and to see it puts in perspective what i do what alessi does because we work our ass off we've been doing 80 like he does 70 80 hour weeks now too he's been doing that for like a year and a half i've been doing that for five years and it's like damn james was doing

this shit and working separate jobs for 25 years just to try to get the respect he long deserves and like for all the creators out there who have a dream and want to do stuff you're looking at a guy right here who never lets anything defeat him. And you had to do it again since then. So shout out to you for doing that and for making another kick-ass documentary. Thank you. You know, I hope now we can be smooth sailing. I should have been laughing in my 50s like, yeah, I did it.

Instead I'm like fighting for survival like again. Here's the good news. I was like was like well i've been in the trenches my whole life so i've been here before i know how this feels i know what it's like to be broke i know it's like to be completely panicked i know what it's like not to even have a bank account i didn't have a bank account when i first i didn't have a bank account when i was making the phenomenon for three years and i remember people going what are you talking about you have a bank account i was like yeah i'm sorry i'm not what are you talking about? You don't have a bank account? I was like, yeah, I'm sorry. I'm not doing it to upset you.

Like, I don't have a bank account because taxes and da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. And if I put money in the bank, you know, it's gone. So I had to deal with all that. And it's gone. It's all gone. I remember I got this check and I was waiting for it. It was like $1,500. I was like, oh, I need that check so bad.

I was so desperate. I was like, oh, my God. I was like, I'm going to pay my cell phone, keep that from getting cut off. Then I got my heat bill. And I was like, oh, God. And then so I got the check and I raced it to the bank. I didn't do the ATM. I went inside to make sure everything went smoothly.

I put that check in the bank. The next morning I came to get some money out. And she's like, sir, you have a zero balance. I was like, what are you talking about? I said, I put money in last night. Oh, well, you made a withdrawal. I said, no, I didn't. And then she's like,

ooh. The IRS took it. I was like, oh my god. You want to talk about a gut punch? It was like, oh, my God. You want to talk about a gut punch? It was like somebody punched me in the stomach with everything they had. And I remember thinking to myself, they didn't save me a dime. Not a dime. They took all of it.

James is like, back to doing glory hole blowjobs. Let's go. Oh, my God. I was so devastated. He's pulling up on a race car. But I remember thinking they didn't even save, like didn't take like 50% or like 70%. They took 100 every penny of it. Anyway, so yeah, so I've been there.

And it's funny actually because I have this mentality of like someone's going to come take the good stuff that I did get away from me. I paid cash for kind of my dream car when I could. And when I bought a house, I just had a chunk of money. I never had a chunk. I never had that before. It almost made me paranoid because everyone's like, you got to do this. You got to buy stock. I'm like, I'm not a stock guy.

No. I'm going to put it all into a house. So I took the chunk and it's gone. But I felt good about it. As an artist, you know, it's like, then at least it's in a house, right? Yeah. Anyway. Allegedly.

Allegedly. I'm going to go dig in the backyard and see where you got that cash. Yeah, right. I was my neighbor when I was growing up but the bottom line is here you are you have maintained I know obviously there's real human struggles behind the scenes but you have at least in every time we've talked

maintained your happy go lucky positive attitude the whole way and it's a good lesson because like I think that's part of what gets you through and gets you this point thank you I appreciate that yeah I don't talk about that aspect of it very often and people think like like i had this young uh filmmaker make a comedy well you have it easy and everybody's uh everybody you know helps wants to help you out blah blah i i was like what you're in your 20s i'm in my 50s i've been in the trenches for 25 30 years i'm like

you need to pay your dues, buddy. He's like, yeah, whatever. It really pissed me off. And I just had to cool my jets and be like, okay, this guy doesn't know. Because I don't really talk about that often, what I've been through to get to where I am. Not that I'm anywhere special, but it's like I set out to do dreams, and I had to claw and fight and kick and scratch and fight my way all the way man Yeah, it's like nothing but a slew of obstacles in front of you try to get your go for your dreams, right?

So yeah, but when I finished the the phenomenon was the only movie I finished that I Was like satisfied Because you weren't satisfied with the ones before that nope I did uh 50 years of denial I was happy but I was like you know I did it that was intense I didn't realize I was in my 20s I was like I didn't I had no idea how hard that was going to be then I did out of the blue and I was moderately happy and I remember my partner Boris was in a fetal position crying and I've been there too and his wife's looking at me like i'm she's like you're killing my husband you know and he's like you know james like everybody's so hard i've got no money so i'm not paying him so he's like

broke and his wife's like what the hell i was like we gotta get this movie out man this is like everyone's at the end of the rope so i i released that film then i I owned it again three years later when I got a letter from NBC Universal. And they're like, we're not going to renew the broadcast option, which I didn't expect them to do anyway. So I owned it again. And I revisited that film. And I think I spent another two and a half years on Out of the Blue. I made a director's cut. And then finished that.

Again, totally broke. Like, end of my rope. And that was like, it's good good but it's not what I envisioned it wasn't like what you you know you have this idea and it doesn't materialize necessarily as as you as you wanted to so I took another crack at it in my 30s mid 30s and I did I know what I saw mid to late 30s finished I know what I saw and I was kind of depressed because Lionsgate almost bought it. But then the people at, I think it was not acquisitions,

but the people that go through the quality control reviewed it, and they said that it had fallen short in production qualities. And I remember thinking to myself, I didn't get a deal with Lionsgate because of that. And it was devastating. And I was like, all right, I'm not going to make that mistake again. Next time, if I don't have the money to do it right, I'll wait until I do. So then that's why the phenomenon took as long as it did. It took me eight years. I started when I was 43. You went all over the

world too. Went all over the world, yeah. And I ran out of money at the time and I lost my bank account, became a dad, all those things. Kept going, kept going, kept going, kept going kept going kept going kept going and when i finished it i watched it in the um in the in the uh in los angeles in a place called judah proposed who does the audio work because we're going to be for the first time ever in movie theaters and everyone said to me if you want to be in a theater if your audio ain't right it's yes you got to have, you need to hire an audio engineer. And I was like, what? I've never hired an audio engineer.

You don't, all these pros, you don't understand, James, you can't be in theater without proper sound, the balance, the modulation, all the little microscopic surgery that the,

that these guys do. He did it. He was amazing. And Ben Zerai. And I watched the film in that studio. I didn't watch it again for several years after that, but I was like, okay, this is it. Yeah, we got it. We locked it down finally.

That's the one that I've been trying to do since I was 24. Yeah, I mean, it's the most comprehensive history of the modern UFO phenomenon ever. No pun intended and i wanted to i wanted to create a body of evidence that could transcend in a big way the ufo community no problem i'm part of the ufo community but but i felt what's the point of preaching to the choir i wanted i want to be able to present a body of evidence to the mainstream to a much more mainstream audience so let them know that there's really something more than swamp gas and weather balloons to the phenomenon, right?

And I did it. I felt like we did it. Yeah. Look at all the credits in the film. Most of them deserved it, not all of them. But that's another story altogether. All right.

Yeah, you're going to blue balls us there. I see it. But you get to sit down with a guy like Harry Reid who was – Oh, it was amazing. This longtime center and everything and was read in allegedly on some of this stuff. But that's where the initial idea for the program obviously comes from because you're doing this comprehensive history and you stumble upon the fact that there were official you know obviously you had the 2017 christopher mellon taking the documents out of the pentagon and going to new york times and bringing it public while you're making the phenomenon and then you're

in the midst of making the phenomenon you're talking to people like harry reid and you're like holy shit we have actual programs that are documented that look at this and nothing else you know so i mean were you thinking to yourself holy shit all these crash retrieval you know folklore all the way up to men in black because this is before you did moment of contact yeah might actually be based on something real because of what guys like harry re telling you? You know, it's kind of like, I remember when it happened at the time, because I almost like pinched myself. It's been a couple of times in my career where I've literally, I'm in such a state of disbelief that I have to literally physically like kind of pinch myself because I'm going, did that

really just happen? Like, really? And I remember the first time it happened with Five Simons and the former governor of Arizona when he admitted after doing this whole spoof 10 years earlier where he had his aide dressed up as an alien and he came out and mocked the whole Phoenix Lights case and everyone was so pissed off about that. And that was one time when he admitted it, I was like,

did I just hear what I think I heard? Like, he just said he saw it and he investigated it. And then it wasn't of this earth. He knew that just by the sheer size. And, you know, and I remember like I literally reached out and I was pinching myself going, no, I'm not sleeping. This really happened. I was pinching my leg. And then I was like, ah, the camera's not rolling.

So I looked over to see if the red light was still going on the camera, you know, one of those moments. And when Harry Reid said to me, because I remember I was being somewhat conservative. It was a huge moment in my career, like you might imagine, right? Oh, yeah. And I don't think anybody had gotten it. I mean, that was the biggest sit-down interview he ever gave because he got diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. Yeah, he was gone quick.

Right after it happened, yeah. And so I said, you're telling me something like this. You're telling me that what's been released, the videos that were making the headlines all across the world, you're telling me that the evidence that's been released, that there's more or something like that? And he goes, was it like the vast majority or it's just the tip of the iceberg? Some extremely profound statement like it you always suspect it but to have that level of confirmation by that level of of person on camera wow that was an incredible moment in my career it was like oh my god all these things that we've been hearing at roswell and kingman arizona and aztec and and Virginia and just all this stuff.

It's like, this changes everything. Like if you think about it, because people often ask me, they're like, why do I keep pushing? What's wrong with you? You're just obsessed. And I say to them like, well, imagine, imagine if this stuff is true.

Imagine if we have hardware from an alien species. I say alien because I don't know, whatever they are, but they're alien to us. If we have hardware in bodies, how significant of a story would you give that? Everybody goes, holy shit. It doesn't matter what your political background, your religious, whatever. All around the world, everyone says the most significant story, period. Right? Of course. So I am convinced that it's going down

and it's a very difficult story to walk away from. And quite frankly, I'm not gonna ever walk away from it until it's out. And it's coming out. It's coming. The story's coming out. Needs to. Yeah, yeah, it's coming.

I mean, it's coming out. Yeah, one of the things... Do not put the genie back in the bottle, sorry. One of the things you've talked about, Jason, is that there's a difference between... I want to get this right. Difference between disclosure and national security interests. Something like that when it comes to the phenomenon. Are you basically saying that if we had evidence that they're that literally that

we are not alone in the universe people have a right to know that at a broad level whereas the things that may be more finite within that that would impact our national security they don't yes that's kind of how i feel about it too just that yeah there's a difference between a weapon system from a technology be it from our own making or exotic retrieval kind of stuff where that needs to stay classified. But the disclosure should be that, yeah, we do have other things that we don't know where they come from or we do know where they come from. And these are the entities.

And yeah, people need to kind of know about this because it's a big deal for us as a race to just realize that we're not alone in this universe absolutely you know i mean that has an impact and to me that's a right for everybody to know or not know and accept or not accept well so expanding on what you just said because a lot of people go you know any statistician will tell you that the odds of us being alone in the universe is is you know we're not 100 there's other life the question is is it coming here of course i'm convinced it is and i'm sure i'm 100 yeah i've seen it i know yeah i wish everybody else could know what i know and have experienced it and then they'd all be like oh yeah this is serious um can we talk a

little bit about his uh because i know i want to provide a little bit of a platform so he can defend himself a little bit and i'm not sitting there you know holding jay up on a platform but i'm the reason why he's coming forward i'm the reason why he got exposed it was my mistake he did an on-camera interview with me we We were going to mask his identity primarily, but primarily because it was a security insurance thing. He shakes his head like, yeah, good job, asshole. He was dealing in 2021, 2022, where he was having meetings in skips, I'm guessing. Yes. Meetings in skips with congressional staffers or people part of the task force or –

UAP task force folks, folks yeah folks investigating on the hill yeah and they introduced me to the congress and both senate and house all that stuff and i met personally with a couple of those people because i was like i'm i need to know that this guy's been vetted and you know so i've been me i was meeting with in fact i've got a in fact let me read this right now because this is the time where i'd want to do it before you go on though i just wanted to say really quick yes you know you mentioned the time when you accidentally put my name out there yes it's actually turned into a blessing in disguise because as you know at that point i hadn't got my adopter yet and explain you yes well that's

going to be the the pre-publication where if you're an intel person you have to ask you know for everything to be reviewed and that's what I had to do is get that. So DOPSR is an acronym for like pre-publication process. Pre-publication. Yep. So that I can, I knew that the subject matter that I could talk to publicly. So that's, that was kind of something I was still working on. But when I had to go public, it was, it was fine though.

I felt really good. Like there was a whole cloud just lifted. And actually there was a lot of supporters that came out of the woodwork for me. So, and you've been getting a lot of heat for some things that you said that I thought were very questionable, but whatever. Whatever. Let me read. Let me read. Let me read something here, because this came from an individual that I met with.

I hope you had the camera on. Active. I'm going to put my old man glasses on for this. Okay, here we go. And I had nicer glasses. I had really cool glasses, but I left them in the car. It was wrongful. What are you looking at here?

I remember the first time I went on Joe Rogan, I had these really funky glasses, and everyone was commenting on them like, dude, seriously, those are the glasses you're gonna be sporting on joe mcgurk i never thought it was a fashion you know statement here to wear some glasses like i don't know this guy yeah i don't know him to give him credit you said he had a mansion and a yacht okay here we go and this i know who this individual is and, blah, blah, blah, blah, you might as well quote my name directly. So I said, please keep as written. Yes, I will. Okay.

From a congressional source who was aware of his testimony, Jason Sands. Jason testified to three congressional committees and Arrow as a whistleblower. His military and intelligence community background, clearances, and assignments were fully vetted. We were not, however, able to validate some details of his extraordinary testimony. However, Mr. Sand's testimony did provide significant insights that were later validated by multiple military witnesses. And who gave you this statement again without saying the actual person? It was a congressional source.

Okay. Yeah. And I met with this individual face-to-face multiple times. Now, this is a little bit of a different kind of podcast. Like we've had multiple people on here a bunch, but this is a little bit of a different one than we've ever done because your story is going to be in the middle of this and that's really going to be a focus. And at some point we're going to come back around to a lot of things in the program but we'll just do this live like we always do

so jason obviously james gave you a pretty good intro as far as what some of the high level i guess like public discourse is right now yes you. But I really want to get the full thing out there just so it can be there on the record and everyone out there listening can kind of decide for themselves and hear what you have to say and go from there. I got photographs of him in the military that I printed out. So you can go through these pictures, hold them up, and explain where you are, what you're doing, what your military credentials were at the time. But hold them up for the camera if you can. Yeah, so your camera is going to be right there.

Yeah, this one is when I was in Sembog. Hold it up a little higher maybe. Yep. And this is me and my DO, who's kind of like the operations chief. He was swearing me in again for another reenlistment in this particular. This was about 1990. Okay, next one. This is me training one of the younger troops.

Hold it up higher. This is at Black Mountain, which is that place where the UFO incident of 1994 happened. Nausea? Yeah, just the location where the UFO flew by. There's a window there you were saying that you're blocking in the picture. Tell us what you would have seen out that window a couple days earlier. Yeah. I'm sorry, when that UFO image leaked out of Nellis.

Yeah, because there's windows on this wall and also along the other side of the wall. And my coworkers were up there the day the ufo came through and they uh they saw it uh several of them saw it um some of the people are actually in other vehicles and things that around the desert doing other things and they didn't see it but the people that were in the schoolhouse tell me yeah everyone out there we're going to come back to that like we're going to go through that whole thing i'm going going to want to start from the beginning a minute, but keep going with the pictures. All right. So go to the next picture.

Yep. This is me with my commander at the unit that I had all of my experiences from. Look at those specs. Damn. I had surgery later on. I had some LASIK later on in life. But, yep, had those specs. Anyway, I was just receiving an award or a graduation, I believe it was.

Yeah, it was an award. So the commander just gave me an award for something great I did. I didn't think much of it, but people thought it was worthy of an award. Okay. And this is when I graduated the NCO Academy. And, yeah, that's my wife and i'm protecting her privacy to uh the public but anyway yes this is me at the graduation they had a photographer for us but this is again in germany where i graduated from the nco academy when is

this approximately this is just before um i think just before haw Hawaii. So you're talking 2001 or 2. Okay. So this is several years before you leave the Air Force. Right, right, right. Okay. Yeah, because I left the Air Force in 2007. Okay. And then there's two more documents I'd love you just to quickly go through.

We can get this out of the way. Okay. And that is, I think I have them, which talks about your special access program. Where are those? Do you have those in yours? Do I have them? Here, I'm going to pass them to you. Here we go.

Okay. Yeah, some of these I don't. These are raw documents, so I can't show the names and stuff. But I am going to show you my own personal records. But these are from my career in the Air Force every year you have what's called a personnel report that you have to have signed by your immediate supervisor and your commander and you just go through and tell them this is what I did this year

here's the things that are noteworthy to highlight I provided these to James and several other trusted individuals because they highlight some things that people have questioned me about. I think most recently they questioned the fact that they had a guy that was supposed to be in my career field and claims that, oh, I couldn't possibly be in a special access program and take off every two weeks and nobody know. Well, dude, I'm sorry. I'm going to embarrass you a bit. But anyway, that's what's in these documents here. Read the ones we highlighted. We might have put them at the top of your stack right there.

Oh, they're in my stack. Yeah, yeah. Let me use the ones that are highlighted. Just really quickly. It's easier to locate. I think it's just important to establish some of his military records before you get into it. So here you go. Yeah.

Served as ComSec operator on three highly sensitive Secretary of the Air Force level special projects missions. Does it give a year range on that? Yes, and on the back side of this, it shows you that this is where I worked. This is Nellis.

You can read that and then read the back. It tells you exactly where he was Nellis test range. Okay. So I'm reading the highlighted parts, right? Okay. Valued at over $2.5 million. Entered into analyst upgrade training expertise in the area of readiness, disaster preparedness.

Plans and trainings have aided significantly in the unit's readiness posture. And then it says it does give the address for Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada and I can see the year periods are what you're saying 92 to 93. Exactly and so here's another one also this one also confirms again that I was doing this for years if you look at that one you see also the mention of the special access that I had. And then if you flip it over, you can see, again, this is from Nellis Air Force Base, my job there. And again, the dates and the date grouping, it's right when I've always said this is who I was during those years.

Okay. All right. This is great to have, by the way. So thank you for bringing this just so we have, like, the actual literal government documents. I definitely want you guys to to look at it and read it yourself he brought it in all of his records of course yeah of course we're looking at some before too the congressional staff members uh leslie kane christopher mellon a number of other people that said look whatever he's saying his clearances check out he is who he says he was he was where he says he was and he's he's named classified programs that we've later validated with multiple other witnesses so

leave it at that so james one of the things that i think makes your job really hard yeah that you know it's almost like how do you even get around this if you're going to try to investigate it is that you do have to talk with a lot of people who are from and around intelligence, right? Or high-level military or whatever you may say. And, you know, I'm so fascinated by that subject matter. You know I've had some of these spooky people on here before. I like to hear them out, put my feds right where I can see them on camera and everyone else can listen and everyone judge for themselves.

I understand it's a mixed bag. There's some things they say where I'm like, that's definitely bullshit. bag. There's some things they say where I'm like, that's definitely bullshit. And then there's other things they say where I'm like, maybe, you know what I mean? But I never know the motive on it. So I just kind of sit here and do the best I can to understand that. But you dealing with the guys like the Christopher Melons,

dealing with guys like I've had in here, like Lou Elizondo, dealing with any of these people that are unnamed sources that you have as well, dealing with people even in Congress who, you know, I guess we could say it this way, report to those people in a way, and they wouldn't want to say that, but that's kind of how it is. You know, how do you grapple with trying to separate, you know, what is a PSYOP-like subject matter that may be brought your way versus things that could actually be on the pathway of your investigation that you're looking for? Good question. And I totally get that. And particularly as you get closer to the target, things get a little more hazy, right? And you get under attack and you don't know who

to believe. I have the distinct advantage of having done extensive field research all around the world. And when I hear reports like what he's referring to, I remember hearing that Nellis test range footage leaked in the 90s. I was investigating UFOs making my first film. From who? Who did you hear from? On the internet. Oh, just basic public, yeah.

It was reported in a news, some tabloidy news thing, but it was real. And I remember going, this is fascinating. This was in the 90s. So I had heard about the Nellis test range leak back in the 90s, right? And I've reported on close encounters of the first kind, close encounters of the second kind, and close encounters of the third kind all around the world, right? And so when I meet someone like Mr. Sands, I've got a lot of field research. For instance, you know, my time boots on the ground in Virginia, Brazil, crash retrieval program, capture of biologics, entities. So I go, all right, I can't just believe him because of what he says, just, and I feel that way about anybody else,

Lou Elizondo, David Grush, like, who do we know? Does what they say align with my field research? And if it does, I have to think, okay, this might be true. If it's way out to the right field or something, okay, a little more questionable. One thing I've learned in this field, I have that knee-jerk response. You hear something that sounds truly impossible, right? And you have this knee-jerk response like, this is too unbelievable. This can't be, therefore it isn't.

I've learned after 30-plus years to suspend that judgment and at least listen and hear the people out, right? And so that's kind of where I'm at. Now, with Mr. Sands, this alleged encounter that took place in 1994, you got the video, you got the names. I'm not going to reveal them, but we have first and last names, documents that have leaked and whatever of other people that witnessed it. They leaked publicly like you got access to them?

When the video leaked, other names leaked. Okay. And I contacted a couple people that I trust, that I trust. Could I be, you know, getting the light? Sure, I could be, yeah, definitely. But you trust them. I did. Why do you trust them?

Because I was the one that tracked them down, and they refused to meet with me. They did not come to me. I went to them, and I tried for years to get a meeting with him and kept trying and kept trying and kept trying and finally got a meeting became kind of friends had multiple meetings and then I kind of lean on on them for advice on hey can you do some background on this and they can do the background on that and and I look for a sort of consensus among those various contacts do they know each other a lot of the ones you're thinking of right now?

I'm sure they know of each other. Whether they're in direct contact, I don't know. But I asked him point blank after I looked into this for eight months, what can I do? I can't prove that he had an encounter in the desert. But I, okay, you know, Jason's got some PTSD issues, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, well, I was really frustrated. I remember this happened to a couple of people I was talking with. Did it happen or did it not happen in your opinion?

Please, do you think it happened or not? And they're like, we think it happened. And Christopher Mellon was one of these people who said that? I'm not saying any names, but we think it happened. And I was like, okay, all right, well, based on that, I'm going to report on it, and I'm going to hope that me reporting on it will encourage other people that were potentially there, because now we have one person coming forward. We have video that's leaked. We have Nate.

Who were there at Nellis. Who were there at Nellis, that video that leaked three days prior. So there was a UFO that was captured on sensory data. You can explain that one better. And then Jason Sands coming forward. So maybe the other on-duty military personnel will come forward and say, yeah, that happened. Or, you know what, Jason's full of doggy doo-doo, and it didn't happen. But one way or the other. Now, Jason was able to get a hold of one of the individuals.

Yeah, we're going to talk about that. And then he went dark, right? Yeah, he ghosted me after I mentioned it. We'll get there on the timeline. I promise people we're going to go through all this. I just don't want to jump around. So anyway, so that's just because it's a very controversial thing, and it's very controversial when you're dealing with, you know,

close encounters of the third kind, period. I mean, I was terrified when I covered the Rua Zimbabwe case in 1994, the landing at the school. Discussed that a lot in 138. Yeah. And I had, you know, I had Harry Reid and Podesta and all the other intel folks in the phenomenon. And I was like, as soon as they see the fact, because they wanted to review the film before they're going to give me a release form. As soon as they see the fact that I've got reports of, you know, face-to-face contact with aliens at a school in Africa, people are going to be like, you need to take me out of this movie, right?

Yeah, I don't want to rehash all that for the people because we did do that in the past. Episode 138, it was like 17 minutes or 21 minutes into that. But that's a crazy case, and I discussed it with Danny Sheehan a lot, too. Yeah, reporting on those types, the nature of those cases, you know, with not a lot of evidence, right? You've got eyewitness testimony. It's pretty much all you've got. Yeah. So, anyway.

But those were children, though, too, which is interesting. True, true. Because, you know, when you have so many kids saying the same thing. Yeah, it was a compelling case. John Mack, like, psychologically evaluating them. I'm not saying it doesn't mean it's not made up but like it's a little bit yeah that one keeps me up at night yeah it's pretty crazy i'd like to talk to them too because i know uh that from my encounter that some of them claim that they had some kind of

telepathic yes uh conversation and from my experience i know there was like residue information that i don't know where it came from residue information like you know when you join a mind space the way i felt it was that there was some part of that person that was overlaid onto me and it was like you know kind of it was almost like we were one one mind for a bit and i'd like to talk to some of those kids that were there and see if they have some residue memories of who they spoke to because that's kind of how it felt with me is that there were some leftover things that I'm like, well, that's not my life, you know, but this was from that telepathy. You know, it's interesting. When I flew in some of the witnesses with the help of Randall Nickerson back in 2013, it was coming up on the 20th anniversary of the landing at the school in Ariel School in Zimbabwe.

And a lot of the witnesses that came in, I was talking to them. They were married, school teachers, lawyers, and had partners. And they had not, they were like, well, I had to tell my husband. She said, I had to tell my husband. He had to tell your husband what? She goes, well, I told my husband about the incident. I was like, you're married with kids and you didn't tell your husband prior to that? Yeah.

No, no, we didn't. Why? Well, I was tired of defending it, you know, and I just quite honestly had to put it out. Defending it. Yeah, just like people looking at me with this incredulous look on their face like you're crazy. And I just got tired of talking about it, so I didn't talk about it. So I was like, you're married with kids and you didn't tell your husband about this? Nope, I didn't.

Up until now. And he just told, you just told a few years ago, your wife and your kids. Yes. Yeah. All right. I kept my mouth shut, but there was. So you didn't back when it happened? No, I did my good boy, keep my mouth shut.

But then I started seeing some things that I was concerned with. And that's when I went to Congress. Got it. So James, just as a devil's advocate here to play this out, you know, you talk about these guys you had to track down and they wouldn't talk with you, wouldn't talk with you. And then they talk with you. And I, and I think about this, it's very possible that the outcome is exactly what you said, but the other possible outcome is that they're like, holy shit, there's this guy who was like a bloodhound on the trail. Like he doesn't give up.

He knows his shit about the phenomenon. He's a very, very respected name in that space. He's been investigating this stuff for years. He can roll off all these facts from around the world. He could be useful to us to fucking feed him some information because he's fiending for it. And that could be useful for whatever we're doing that's a distraction from what's really going on here not to say like oh we're not alone in the universe or not to say that we're not not alone in the universe or something like that but that there are other things at play here i.e i don't know reverse engineered darpa weapons or things like that

that are even from things of this earth that we don't want china and russia knowing we got from a human standpoint so we're gonna say oh look at the fucking green alien and j James Fox is going to be our guy to put the information out there that tries to push that narrative. Do you think that could happen with any of these guys? Well, yeah, good point. And I would say that when you've got someone like Mr. Sands or people that have appeared in my movie, right, a number of people, they've exposed their faces, right, and their names, saying, look, you provide me with the necessary, like, clearance or immunity,

and I'll provide all the level of detail you need to verify what I'm telling you, right? So the implications are so significant that we owe it to ourselves to make sure that these individuals, like take him, take Hal Puthoff, and a number of other people that have come forward, let's fight. Let's inform Congress and let's fight to get these guys immunity and put them on under oath to testify to a bipartisan group of lawmakers publicly. Let's provide them with immunity, and let's get the specifics. Let's verify, let's prove or disprove what their claims are, because the implications are so profound,

not just for everyone within the United States. This is going to have a global impact, right? So, yes, you have to, in the back of your mind, go, yeah, this is going to have a global impact, right? So yes, you have to, in the back of your mind, go, yeah, this could be. They could be, you know, but again, it aligns with my research in the field. That's, I really can't emphasize that enough. So let's expose the fact that these folks, they want to, they're asking for immunity, please. I've got NDAs. I've signed all these security oaths. Please just give me immunity. Put me on the stand. Let me take a lie detector. Let me testify under oath to a bipartisan group of lawmakers. And I'll give you all the details you need to verify what I'm telling you. Okay. So let's see it out. It's too significant not to. So why not? So I make everything public as I possibly can. I put the film out there. I got names.

I got, hey, let's find out. I've got meetings with people that I'm trusting. Could they be lying to me? Yeah, they could be. But let's let this process play out because the implications are too profound not to. I think that's fair. Right. That's part of the disclosure. I think that's fair. Right. That's part of the disclosure.

I'd have to add to that. It's just that, you know, you're hearing from people that definitely have truth in what they have to say. Okay. But yes, there are some bad actors out there. And I know that they do work, you know, deception programs around these black programs. You know that. I know that. I work for the office that does that.

Within the, are you referring to within the government or deception for public, for public purposes, meaning like to the general population? To keep the security and cap on it. Yeah. Okay. That's how, how they do things like that. But I'm just trying to tell you though that, yeah, there's a difference between, um, disclosure and just saying that, yes, we're not alone, but there has to be that, that level of,

Hey, you know, we, we need to actually walk into the workspaces, you know, at whatever location. And that's the part that's difficult. Could you, right here, right now, if we had, if you had immunity right now, okay. I'm not asking you to repeat, to say anything classified right here, right now, could you give us street addresses to where the goodies are? I could walk you in, yeah. What are the goodies? What are you referring to, James? Alien technology, bodies.

Body, actual bodies. Bodies, aliens, yes. Non-human. Yes. Yeah, I could, you know, yeah, I could do that. You could give us street addresses. Yeah, yeah. But they may have moved.

I gave those to Congress. They could have moved since you saw them. Well, yeah, because my, yeah, I'm kind of like an archival witness to all of this program stuff. What do you mean archival witness? Well, just that my time in tenure was, you know, from in the mid-90s, early to mid-90s. That's it. And then I was out of the program after that. So there's other people, though, that I know of that are whistleblowers that have been there and they're still in it.

But like you're saying, they need immunity. Yeah. in it. But like you're saying, they need immunity. So where I was at when it came to the location where things were back in the 90s, yeah, they may have used different labs or they've created another lab like in California rather than Ohio and things like this. And they could have moved any number of things anywhere else like you're alluding to. And yeah, that's something that other people have already come forward, handed it to Congress and said, this is where they're keeping this stuff. So why do you, real quick, James, I just want to ask this. Why do you have immunity to make some of the claims you have about things you allegedly saw? But people, I understand people

are still in the program, like they're literally actively in it. So you can't discuss that, but like, couldn't they leave tomorrow, therefore, based on you and say the same things you are as well and not have legal repercussion? Yes. They would get a reprieve at least to talk to Congress about things and get this stuff off their back and get all the information that they feel they need to discuss. So they go into a skip to do that? They can do that or they can do like I did and separate after they go through that process and do like I was saying, doing the pre-publication process and everything else that you have to do that they can do that or they can do like i did and separate you know after they go through that process and do like i was saying doing the pre-publication process and everything else that you have to do uh legally to keep your you know make sure this is the stuff you can talk in public and this is stuff you have to keep secret um they can do all of that stuff just

like i did and that's what keeps me you know that that line of what can i talk about and whatnot is because i went through all my legal wickets. But when I was in Congress and I talked to them in the SCIF, they got the full monty. And for people out there who didn't hear Lou Elizondo 237, can you explain what a SCIF is? We said that a few times today. It's a secret compartmental facility where you can discuss top secret and above in some cases. There's the walls and everything that these buildings where the skiffs are have to be built a certain way. The cinder block has to be so thick.

Dampening has to occur also for sound. You can't have sound, you know, coming out. There's no windows. I've only had a window once in my life or twice in my life, rather, in my entire career. So these skiffs are just meant to house all the discussions, all of the paperwork and everything else that's being worked on behind the scenes. You were just in one with Chris Ramsey, right?

Yep. How was that? Oh, that one. Pretty cool, right? Well, I was actually in a real skiff with the new head of Arrow, John Koskowski. You didn't know that? No. Yes, I was.

Please do tell. A little side tangent right here. How was that? You take a picture? You take a selfie in there? Well, I don't know. I don't know how much I'll get. So when we met in the parking lot.

James is going to be in prison by the time we leave here. Air Force Office Special Investigations. I met this guy. He went by the name of Kevin, but he gave me a different name once we were there. It was Kevin. And I had to do it. I had to provide a bunch of information.

They did a 48-hour background check on me. This is right after I went to the third congressional hearings, which happened at the end of in November of 2024. I got to attend my first open congressional hearings. Yeah, very recent okay yeah it was pretty cool everyone's like oh it's big nothing burger well not exactly but anyway that's another story uh i am okay so i can't really really i can't reveal why i went there because they asked me not to but they did

say that i could say i went there and And you'll understand when I explain why. It's basically we're going after the same footage. It's footage that I've been, because people always go, oh, Jay's been talking about that Virginia footage forever, man. You're going to get that. I've heard that before. It's like, oh, you think I'm just going to give up?

Like, really? I heard about something. I'm just going to like give up on it? I told you, I'll bring the Louisville down there with you. We'll get some kneecaps and some fucking video. I'm just going to give up on it. I told you. I'll bring the Louisville down there with you. We'll get some kneecaps and some fucking video. I'm going back to Brazil in seven days. I don't give up on stuff, just so you know. Case in point, the Calvin 1990 UFO photograph.

I was chasing that down for 24 years, 25, 26 years. And then Logan Paul got it for you. Well, that's a different one. That was in Calvin. Yeah, I know. But my point is that when I hear about something, so there's official evidence that I'm 99.9% sure the gentleman who has it, in fact, he told me he had it. And this has been going on for almost 10 years.

Anyway, so we're working together on the inside to get this. And I'll explain more, but whatever. So I go into this, they do a background check on me and i'm going i can't believe i'm going in you know and they gave me this uh special pass and i'm holding this pass man it's like and it says uh that i had i was a mandatory that i was it was an escort mandatory or something something like that like i had to have an escort i couldn't just go with the pass and just walk in i had to be escorted. A human escort. So then I go in. I go through the metal detector.

They combed through all my stuff because I was jumping on an airplane after that. I had all my bags. I went through everything. Get inside. And then they had these big glass tube-like doors. I don't call them doors. But there was one side opens up almost like Star Trek. Oh, yeah.

You know the ones? Yeah. And then the other side opens up, and I walk through. I was like, whoa, what was that? That was kind of cool. Jay's like, I built that one. Yeah. No, it's called a trap area.

It's so that you can't, you have to walk through one door, and if there's a problem with your credentials, they can stop you there until you get out of here. Oh, okay. You know what? I saw that in James Bond. They had that in the third one. It was like super sci-fi.

I mean, I was like, whoa. I was like, oh, what happened? So I'm following this gentleman, and he was super clean cut, perfect suit. Oh, my God. He was the quintessential guy that you'd expect, right? And walked me down this hallway, and he says, well, now wait here. And the door to my right was closed, the door to my left was open. And I'm looking over there, and I see like maybe three guys and two women sitting at an oval-shaped table, clearly having a meeting.

And I couldn't help myself. And you're like? I was just kind of like, I kind of tuned in, you know? I'm like, listen to what the hell is going what they're talking about what else was i gonna do i'm standing there in the hallway so i'm like leaning in on it and then one of the guys gets up rapidly to the door and just closes the door in my face right i was like well sorry buddy geez you know and then john koskowski walks up with kevin and they open up the door to my right we go inside we sit down and we're talking. And I started saying to them, like, you know, God, I've been investigating this

for all these years. And who are these men in black? Are they part of, I've heard maybe it's Air Force Office special investigations. Like I'm talking to them just super openly. I don't care, whatever. Right. You can reveal stuff to me or you could not reveal stuff to me. And then this case you need to look into, and the footage disappeared from here, and who are these men in black? And they're kind of just sitting there quietly. And then I said, you know, and I've gone all around the world, and, you know, yeah, the vast majority of these things can

and have been explained away in, like, conventional terms, but there's a core 15%, 20% that really defy a conventional explanation after in-depth analysis and research and blah, blah, blah. And is there a plan to tell the general public the truth? Like, you know, throw us a bone here. And the head of Arrow, just in November, goes, James, I can't part my own hair without DOD approval. That's right.

And you can quote me on that. And you can say we had this meeting, and you go ahead and share that. So I'm sharing it with you. And that was, in my opinion, that was him saying, look, it doesn't matter what I believe. It doesn't matter what I uncover. I can't reveal Jack Diddley's squat without the DOD's approval, which I thought was a little funny because it's like it's almost set up to

because the DOD's, I mean, you know, because Congress – what Congress appoints the task force or AERO, which is All Domain Anomalous Resolution Office – good luck on the resolution part – Congress appoints them, right? You guys go and report back to us. But then you've got this middleman, which is the DOD, saying what they can and cannot report. Now, I don't know if you've said what they can and cannot report to the public, or if they can or cannot report to Congress, which eventually will come out. And one of the points in the program that Brian Bender makes, he said he spent 20 years on the Hill, Political Magazine and others' publications.

He goes, look, I'm telling you, one thing I've learned from 20 years on the Hill, if Congress finds out, you're going to find out because they're terrible at keeping cigarettes. So the DOD must be doing everything they can to prevent Congress from finding out whatever details needed. Case in point, they still haven't gotten into a skip with David Grush. Yeah, and you know what? That doesn't surprise me because my take on it, and I think a lot of people out there have a similar take. It's like the intel communities, these are people who are there forever in some cases. These congressmen, they come, they go. They come, they go. They come, they go. They're all fucking politicians. They're going to suck the next dick just to get elected. And it's like to me, I don't see any reason why there's not strong evidence to point to the fact that on almost everything, they're treated like mushrooms by intel.

Feed them shit. Keep them in the dark. Give them a little piece right here and there. Give them something that they can actually like have a hearing about. But what do they really even know? What are they not being told? I worry about that like with the president and the vice president. What are they not being told i worry about that like with the president and the vice president what are they not being told you know it's not like they have they're

actually their ears on the ground in whatever fucking country or part of space or whatever they're being they are trusting that the information coming into them in the presidential daily brief is you know not just accurate but the full scope yeah and like who's to say it is and i would imagine coming from your world jay, it's like, you know, there are things that people are like, they don't need to know that, right? Exactly. And I've been told that. I've had to tell other people that.

But you're correct. It's one of those things where when you're in a leadership role at the DOD level and, you know, whoever else might be involved, the secretaries, you know, they don't need to know what's going on, like, at a location and know that, you know, we wheeled in something today and we worked on it this way and we worked on that. They don't need to know all that stuff. They just need in general to know that, all right, do you have your budget? Do you have problems? And then sometimes there's an issue that arrives where they have to go to the site and they will see, you know, the people that are working at that tactical level.

But for the most part, when you're talking the leadership level, they just have that, you know, oh, I know something's going on, but I don't know all the detail. Explain to me, because I was asking you about this earlier, because I'm trying to wrap my mind around how the secrecy is kept. We've got WUSAPs, right, which is a waived, unacknowledged special access program. So is that under the umbrella of the DOE, Department of Energy? It's under the, well, the departments and the agencies all have their own special access programs. Department of State also, they all have those. So they each have an umbrella program for their set of projects. Now, at the top level, whether you're talking about a secretary or director of an agency or the Air Force or the Army, whatever, that's when at the top level, it breaks out into each of the commands underneath

them, mostly military. And they are given another part to work on that's also at a kind of a mid-tier of management level, and they work at that level, and then there's another one that goes down to the tactical units that actually have the lab or the location where the stuff is being processed and things like this. So how do they keep Congress from having oversight? I mean, like, they need money to run these programs. So how do they get money? How do they, give me layman's terms, with some technical stuff, how is it done? Well, for the most part, what's done is that they choose people that have integrity and have been shown the integrity to manage a budget, a black budget, and honestly run that on behalf of Congress and so on and so forth.

Cynically, though, the same people who are failing the audits at the Pentagon every goddamn year, you know what I mean? Yeah, the ones that can't explain where the money went. Oh, we lost $2 trillion. Sorry. Just sorry. We don't know. Hey, can I have more? But these are the people that are vetting to do this. Exactly.

And that's why, you know. You were read into a couple of special access programs. How did that happen? Give me some details. Like, put me there a little bit, if you don't mind. I mean, whatever you can reveal without getting yourself in trouble. This is the James Fox podcast, Alessi. I love it. for certain aspects. You know, you've got, like for me, I think when I got into the program back in the 90s, they looked at my analytical capability, my memory, how I was able to remember

things and connect the dots. How did they look at your memory? Like taking tests of you or psychological evaluations? Intelligence, you already have to have a pretty good IQ to begin with that. But they had been hearing things that, you know, other people in my career couldn't do. I think they were there when I was taking a test or being quizzed for a test by one of my coworkers who was helping me because I have to take volume review exercises, tests, just like anybody else who's certifying on equipment. And for some reason, my brain just absorbs that. The most I've ever, questions that I would go and review is about 300 for my tests. And I could remember them to about 95 percentile. And for some reason, if you were my supervisor,

whoever's quizzing me, I could finish your sentence for you about the question it was, and I give you the correct answer. And I don't know how I do that. I can't do that for everything. I can't, I'm not good with birthdates or anything like that, but good grief, you know, that that's one thing I could do. So you don't have a photographic memory, but you have something where there's a, where there's a special level of recall on certain facets. Right. There's certain, there's certain areas that I think they found interesting with me. And you could draw really well too, right? Yeah. I'm an artist and I think my memory really connects when I connect the dots between one piece of information that's related to this piece of information.

And that's what they're mainly looking at. Because when you're out there in the field doing the work I was doing, that's what you have to do is you have to listen, you have to monitor, and you have to be able to analyze what you're hearing and figure out, does point A equate to point B, and do they have a relationship? In a sense, are you spying on different programs? Yeah, I was there to help button down those programs. I was there to help protect them, because my teams would go out for two-week missions, and we would assess them along with the OSI, and they would do their side, the OSI would go to do their side, and my team would do the tapping into all the communications, telecommunications.

And at various locations. Right, at various locations around the world. And then after the two weeks, we would do what we called a hot wash with the director, the leadership, the staff, whoever the commander wanted in the room at the time with us to discuss what the findings were and how they could help to button down the security even more than what it was and make sure there were no other further leaks. And that's what I did. So I was kind of like a security assessment guy on steroids. That's what I was. And what about some of the criticism you're seeing online with people saying you couldn't have been part of any special access program?

What's your response to that? I just showed you the document. It says right there. I mean, where is it? Did we put it over here? Yeah, it's underneath. Yeah, I mean, yeah. But anyway, it states right there in my own records that I had run in one space of a year three missions for a special access program.

I saw that, yeah. So that totally flies in the face of what they're claiming against me. And for people out there like total laymen who aren't familiar with military terms and things like that, when you say special access program at the highest level, what does that mean? That means that this is a program where the systems that they're working on, the weapons that they're working on, or the things that they are targeting are to be not talked about because there are some things that – and some targets around the world that we don't want to let our enemies know that we know this about them and what they're doing. Yeah. And what's interesting about anything like that to me when you look at whether it's the Pentagon, various aspects of the military, is this thing that I was talking about with Jesse Michaels when he was on here, James.

Yeah. Which, you know, also a mutual friend of ours. Great guy. Amazing show. Amazing podcast he did with you a few months ago, by the way. Yeah, he's a great guy. I actually mentioned him on Rogan. He's like, oh, thank you.

I said, no, don't thank me. You earned it. No, he earned it. You totally deserve every bit that you're getting because you're awesome. He's a beast. But he and I were talking about the compartmentalization of information within the government, which is, let's been around forever, a long time, you know, you could call it like Intel physicists looking at the phenomenon and a whole bunch of different other things for the government. He's in the Pentagon. He's read in on these things, like whether it be OSAP, AATIP and all that. But as much as he knows, and I believe it's a lot, he's, he and the other guys with him are one peg within this entire organization.

And all these other little pegs who maybe aren't talking on podcasts or aren't even public all know separate little pieces of the puzzle. And all these pieces of the puzzle together make the puzzle. But when you just have one thing compartmentalized from all these other things, you can only take that in the context that they're able to say that. You can't take that in the full context of what the full picture is. Does that make sense? Exactly. And that's exactly how it's run. Because like I said, the leadership just has to know enough to keep the budget rolling and to answer the mail when it comes to congressional questioning and stuff. Then the next layer down, they're actually looking and creating plans around this stuff. And they're actually doing logistical work around this stuff. And they're actually

doing logistical work to get things from one point A to point B, to go from this lab to that lab. And they're working on things at that, like I said, that mid-tier level. So the leadership doesn't want to know that crap. Then you go down to the baseline level again, like I said, and they're working on, you know, sometimes on the stuff and they got their hands on it. And so you don't see all of that. And that's what the compartmentalization is, is that when you're in that tactical level, this guy's in one lab and just down the halls, this other guy in another lab,

they don't even talk. Right. So you could be called in to do a mission on whatever that involves UAP or technology that we don't know about. You see some, whatever it is, some crazy shit. And you're like, oh my God, you know this, you've seen this, but the context of what that is and how deep it goes or where it came from, you're never going to find out because that's not a part of what you're read into. Exactly. And even the leadership would be told only very little about because they know that this site needs to operate under this amount of money, let's say. And the tactical, you know, level black programs

that are taking place there are managed by several different program managers on that site. And those people report to their leadership and then that leadership then waters it down and they report on what they need. And eventually the head people and people in the leads will say, okay, well, just what's the dollar amount then? If I can't know all the detail, just people in the leads will say, okay, well, just what's the dollar amount then? In fact, I can't know all the detail. Just give me the dollar amount. Right. So you're sitting in a room with another individual

spying on other agencies, companies, what, activities? It had to be DOD loaned or leased telecommunications is what I was authorized to monitor. In other words, I had to be on a military installation, and it had to be owned by the DOD. And then the thing, though, was that they can make a call that comes out of the base to any place in the world, really. And that's where we would overhear, you know, a corporation answering the phone. Do you have the name of the individual that was working with you still? Don't give them to me, but do you have it?

Yeah. Okay. Did you provide that as well? Yeah, they got that. Okay. So you would overhear it. Can you say that again? You would overhear a corporation making a call about what?

Yeah. It's like if the phone call originated on the base where I was authorized to monitor, the distant end could be anywhere else in the world, in any other location, and I would still capture that. And if it had any bearing on the security of that organization on the military base, that's what I could report on legally. Okay, but it's coming from your base. Interesting.

Correct. Did you ever hear stuff where you looked at your buddy, whoever you were working with, and was like, what? James, can you make that face for the camera yeah yeah yeah yep that's exactly what happened the day that um well actually it's happened on more than one occasion in that program put me in the room like just i just want to all right so you're sitting you gotta you got something that looks like this but it's only bigger it's about you know five times bigger it's the size of of a good sized uh i guess his his screen right there it's only bigger it's about you know five times bigger it's the size of of a good sized uh

i guess his his screen right there it's about it's got some nice stickers on it too it's got cool stickers on it it's got yeah sunflower seeds flying everywhere i love that but anyway you got a bank of 20 different phone numbers coming in all the time and you got to be able to listen with your right and your left ear and you've got two gist sheets sitting here where you're writing down the notes of what you're listening to so i'm sitting there doing my what i'm sitting what we call my rack and then there's another guy sitting off to my right and he's doing the same thing on his 20 lines so we're just going through our day and all of a sudden i hear this crazy stuff about uh this uh conversation this guy had with what he called an

i didn't even know what even meant back then even yeah e-b-e-n uh or an e-b-n this is what you heard you heard this yeah transmission conversation what yeah it was a conversation um on the telephone between two individuals and he just said well uh even said this today kind was a conversation um on the telephone between two individuals and he just said well uh even said this today kind of a conversation and what he relayed was just that yeah there's some serious stuff coming down uh for people in the program because uh you know we have equipment that's theirs and we have biologics that's theirs and he was like well what if we don't want to give it back and he's like well they don't like. And quite frankly, we're going to be put to death if we don't give it back. So the guy that you're working with, you guys both were hearing this.

And you're thinking this is insane? I stopped. I had to finish the call. And then when finally they were done talking and they hung up, I had to do my dubs on my tape and say, you know, shut it all down and say that was the call. It started now, ended at this time. This is the date. Did you report on it? And then, yeah, because then I picked it up.

You'd say it came from this location between these two individuals. Correct. And you had the names of those two individuals. Yeah. And it was just a conversation that you overheard. Yeah. And you reported on it. Yeah.

Did you ever hear any conversations reporting on technology? Yeah, a lot. A lot. That's why we any conversations reporting on technology? Yeah, a lot. A lot. That's why we had a scientist on the team. And what was the feel of the conversation? I don't want you to reveal anything classified, but essentially, like, what kind of stuff were you hearing? Like, people that were frustrated, that were working on it? Yes.

There was a group of technology that was just kind of like, oh, gee, you know what they're working on. It's obviously an aviation pod or something that is on a craft or a system that we know about or we've been working on for a while. You know, it could have been captured from an enemy battle or, you know, some kind of thing like that. Wait, wait, wait. You're saying, I'm sorry.

So you're saying NHI or just terrestrial? Terrestrial. Okay. They would talk about all that stuff within some of the missions that I had. That was the preponderance. And then there's this, like you've already alluded to, that there's about 10 or 15% of it that was like, what on earth did I just hear? Just like what I was telling you. What did I just hear?

So you're listening to someone who is theoretically working on something that they don't understand what it is? Right. The scientists themselves were very frustrated with that 10 or 15% of these calls that would come in. They would be saying, I have no idea. Can I talk to so-and-so? No, you're not allowed to. You can't do that. Just take what you've been given and work on it.

But I'm up against a brick wall here. I've been working on this for months. I can't figure out why this thing does this, this, and this. Well, you're going to have to make it because that's the way it's done. Did you have any look through or any information shared your way, either voluntarily or just by accident that had to do with anything that might involve say DARPA or some of these – okay, so very secret government programs that – and I ask this because it's all our best guess out there how to these guys being decades ahead of us in technology, which could involve technology that's been reverse engineered from not of this planet. But it also most likely involves a lot of technology that maybe is recovered from other countries or that we come up with and we just don't want to tell anyone about.

So in that 10 to 15%, is it reasonable to say that it could be just technology that like our best physicists are secretly working on that no one knows about? Yes. And I would say that we were hearing things that they would have breakthroughs every once in a while on something that they've been working on for like 10 years. And then finally somebody figured it out. And that's kind of how it rolls when you're figuring it out on your own. And, yeah, we do have some very smart people that are able to figure stuff out and figure out things like, you know, free energy and things like this. However, there is this smaller group of exotic material is what I will call it that didn't seem to come from any known civilization that I know of or anybody that I've talked to as an intel analyst that could answer that mail on that.

And a matter of fact, even the things on the UEPep task force forum there was things that people just couldn't explain okay but hypothetically that could be a plain devil's advocate it could be because they're so far ahead and they know something that we can't even yeah the way that i would talk about it in analyst terms is that there's a cadre there seems to be a cadre of both things that i was exposed to in the 90s and as well as people that have've talked to since that claim that that's exactly the case that you just described there. That this is a possibility that we're looking at a civilization we don't even know. Okay. So did you ever hear any credible reports that would suggest we're in possession of an intact craft?

Yes. Credible? Yep. Craft not of this earth or craft that's just unidentified where it came from they didn't know okay who it was from that's how they deemed it they i hate to say it but it is a kind of a a stupid way to explain your logic is to just go up to the front line to the toe line of okay it's not the russians it not the Chinese. It's not us. And instead of going the next, you just say, well, then what is it?

It's another, no, it's unknown. I won't say it. I won't. Well, I'm just going to tell you, I don't know. Okay. James, here's what I want to do real quick. Yes. I'm about to pee myself.

So let's go take care of that. Let's take a quick break. When we come back, I want to start from the beginning on Jason and we're, to come back to where we are right now. The blue man. The blue man. Well, all that. But I literally want to start from the beginning and get to know you as a person and where you come from and what you're about and what happened in your career and how each desk happened. We've alluded to a lot of it today. We have also checked your military record to see that what you're saying about where you were is real. I also want to read what you just asked me to read about 10 minutes ago, James, but we never did. On this report, it says his expertise, referring to you, Jason Sands, managerial abilities and leadership qualities prompted a, quote, by name, unquote, request to fill a critical position in a sensitive required access program, which is what you were talking about.

So this is something that's classified. They knew me for some reason that something about me made them pick me. Okay. Handpicked. Yeah. I've got to show this to my buddy, Matt Cox, who's like a brilliant con man. I've got to see if this is like good fraud or if it's real, you know. You said you're an artist.

Maybe you know there's fine art degrees at work right here. Harley, I remind your audience. Look at, smell that piece of paper and see how old that thing smells. This guy never intended to come forward publicly. I blew his cover, so. At the very least, I owe him the right. Oh, hell yeah. I owe you a voice.

Yes. I owe that to you. We all deserve a voice. You're getting, that's what we're going to do right now. So we'll be right back, and then we're going to pick up with Jason's full story. Yeah. It was very hard to handle. And what were, so what, just so the people have transparency out there,

because you have said this publicly, what is it that you explained was the context with this? As in, you received an order from someone at some point that said, you've got to shoot this NHI. I feel really uncomfortable talking about this, because this is a credibility destroyer, in my opinion, and it really bothers me. I don't like talking about it.

And I don't want to be connected to it. It's going to bring back. Well, there, well, actually. And I've already told him that. All right. So, hold on. If you're going to make those claims, I'm walking out the door. No, I'm not. Just, I'm sorry.

I have to tell you. It's already bad enough. Yeah, because right now we're treading a line where. Thank you guys for watching the episode. Before you leave, please be sure to hit that subscribe button and smash that like button on the video. It's a huge help. Right now, we're treading a line where...