Julian Dorey Podcast - #267 - Biggest UFO Area 51 Whistleblower since Bob Lazar CONFRONTED | Jason Sands & James Fox

Episode Date: January 17, 2025

SPONSORS: - Download PRIZEPICKS & use Code "JULIAN" to get $50 w/ your first $5 play: https://shorturl.at/2XCLm (***TIMESTAMPS in description below) ~ James Fox returns for the third time on Julian Dorey Podcast to discuss his latest Documentary, "The Program" which goes behind the Congressional hearings to leave skeptics astounded by new assertions from a growing chorus of high-level insiders who insist there is definitive proof we are not alone. Jason Sands is a new UFO whistleblower, who has recently come forward with claims about his involvement in a 20-year black budget program and a surreal Alien encounter. BUY/RENT “The Program": https://geni.us/TheProgram PATREON https://www.patreon.com/JulianDorey FOLLOW JULIAN DOREY INSTAGRAM (Podcast): https://www.instagram.com/juliandoreypodcast/ INSTAGRAM (Personal): https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey/ X: https://twitter.com/julianddorey GUEST LINKS X: https://x.com/jamescfox IG: https://www.instagram.com/jamesfoxdirector/?hl=en Watch "Moment of Contact": https://shorturl.at/tSgOQ Watch "The Phenomenon": https://shorturl.at/9RWvG LISTEN to Julian Dorey Podcast Spotify ▶ https://open.spotify.com/show/5skaSpDzq94Kh16so3c0uz Apple ▶ https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/trendifier-with-julian-dorey/id1531416289 JULIAN YT CHANNELS - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Clips YT: https://www.youtube.com/@juliandoreyclips - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Daily YT: https://www.youtube.com/@JulianDoreyDaily - SUBSCRIBE to Best of JDP: https://www.youtube.com/@bestofJDP OTHER JDP EPISODES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE: - Episode 138 - James Fox: https://youtu.be/XA7ElUfOkd0 - Episode 139 - James Fox: https://youtu.be/4rrHV3Kczx0 - Episode 145 - Michio Kaku: https://youtu.be/IQN6_xY9TAM ​​ - Episode 151 - Ron James: https://youtu.be/PGBWaHLK9cY - Episode 173 - Brian Keating: https://youtu.be/R0G7WUqHwqw - Episode 179 - Nick Pope: ​​https://youtu.be/uDS3ahkAXdA - Episode 180 - Lawrence Krauss: https://youtu.be/AZdbBXFqQYw - Episode 207 - Darcy Weir: https://youtu.be/7PZAh4BzZSM ****TIMESTAMPS**** 0:00 - Jason’s Traumatic Childhood, Father’s Abuse 16:11 - Jason tells dad to divorce, Living with Dad, Dealing with Trauma 26:32 - Opening Up with Mom About Trauma (Severe PT5D) 37:09 - Joining Air Force & Working Up Ladder 45:58 - Jason’s job in Air Force, Moving to Nevada & New Training 56:59 - Jason’s 1st UFO Sighting 1:04:51 - Area 51 (Red Flag Exercise), Polygraph Test, Strange Trip to Groom Lake 1:13:25 - Mentioning of UFO by Commander, Bob Lazar Story, 1st Mission 1:26:05 - Leaked 1994 Nellis UFO Footage 1:38:04 - Alien Encounter Story 1:53:17 - Post-Alien Encounter 2:06:24 - Interview with Congressional Individuals in SCIF’s 2:14:35 - James Connecting Jason Sands 2:23:52 - Assassination of Alien Issue 2:44:25 - Julian’s Thoughts on Jason Sands 2:50:40 - Disclosure Needs CREDITS: - Host, Producer, and Editor: Julian Dorey - In-Studio Producer: Alessi Allaman - https://www.youtube.com/@UCyLKzv5fKxGmVQg3cMJJzyQ Julian Dorey Podcast Episode 267 - Jason Sands & James Fox Music by Artlist.io Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It was very hard to handle. And what were, so what, just so the people have transparency out there, because you have said this publicly, what is it that you explained was the context with this? As in, you received an order from someone at some point that said, you got to shoot this NHI. I feel really uncomfortable talking about this, because this is a credibility destroyer, in my opinion, and it really bothers me that you're talking about it. And I don't want to be connected to it in any way, shape, or form. And I've already told him that.

All right, so hold on. If you're going to make those claims, I'm walking out the door. No, I'm not. I'm sorry. I have to tell you. It's already bad enough. Yeah, because right now we're... James, what do you mean that coffee's not as strong as you like?

I put like 12 scoops in there for four cups. You should have done 24. Jesus Christ, your life expectancy is low. I drink whiskey, and I like strong coffee okay it was strong this is wow i like the spoon to stay upright or dissolve okay you know what i mean all right fair enough all right well let's get to it what we said before the break so jason just starting at the beginning where'd you grow up where you from uh born to a uh a full-blooded English woman and a U.S. Army sergeant in England. So I was born over in Harrogate is where I was born in England.

I was a U.S. citizen by birth because Kennedy had just signed into law that, you know, if you're born to a service member overseas, you can automatically become a U.S. citizen there. Wasn't he whacked like four days before you were born? Yeah, before I was born, yeah. So I was glad that he passed that before I – anyway, so – Wow. Anyway, that's where I was born. I spent a few years there. We did a quick tour to Japan, and that was kind of nice so it was near hokkaido

very beautiful place and um and then we went to fort devins in massachusetts how old are you then about six seven okay you know um and we ended up going there later on in life when i was graduating high school my dad actually retired out of Fort Devens, um, around 1980. Um, and that's when I graduated in 1981 from high school. Did you want to join the military because of your dad? I did. And he warned me, it was kind of weird. He said, don't go in the army. I'm like, why not? He said, well, he said, all I know how to do is kill people. He said, I want you to learn a trade. You go in the Navy or you go in the air force. I'll honor that. But he said, don't go in the army or the Marines. All I know how to do is kill people. He said, I want you to learn a trade. You go in the Navy or you go in the Air Force. I'll honor that.

But he said, don't go in the Army or the Marines. All I know how to do is kill people. That's what he said. Yep. He just said, he's been special forces most of his life. He was a Green Beret, all that kind of stuff. He was a very good soldier, a very good warrior. So he was on these bases, but he's getting called to different places around the world to do things.

Yeah. Did he ever tell you about specific places? Yeah. Later in life, we started talking about, we had very parallel experiences and things that we'd seen, you know, some of the touch and go things we did experienced. Sometimes we'd cry. Sometimes we'd not, you know, laugh about it. And sometimes we'd be hopping mad about what somebody put us through.

But we kind of talked about it. And, yeah, we had a lot of the same things because he was an Intel guy. But he was also, you know, not in the front lines all the time. But he did do some of that. But he would do some of the same things that I did. But he was an Intel. So he was like a Green Beret and stuff. But eventually he was doing things that were, I guess, like.

He was one of the guys that would like you you'd take a briefcase of uh money and go pay off somebody in the town up in vietnam oh i like those guys yeah and uh yeah and there was stuff that he got experienced that he he was like i can't even hang out with these guys they talk about them killing everything in the house and he said he was so sick and tired of debriefing it and he was like i he has to get off of that mission and those were some of the other things that he would talk about that i was like, yeah, I've kind of been there, done that too. But you didn't talk about this stuff, as you're alluding to, until later in life. Yeah.

So it wasn't like when you were a kid. Like, do you remember having many conversations with your dad about what he did during the day? He was gone most of the time. It wasn't a fun childhood. He was very violent when he was drunk, and he was drunk all the time. And that was the unfortunate thing. Did he attack your mom? At certain points, yeah.

They got into some really heated arguments that ended up physical, yeah. But he got help for it. I don't want anybody to think anything about it. He died a very honorable man. He finally got rid of the booze, and he became the dad and everything that he was supposed to be all his life. It just took him a while. Were you afraid of him when you were a kid? Oh, yeah, yeah. And he became the dad and everything that he was supposed to be all his life. It just took him a while. Were you afraid of him when you were a kid?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And he wasn't, as you said, he wasn't around a lot. So your mom was really raising you. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. And were you close with her? Very close.

Yeah. Is she still with us? Yeah. Yeah. She's the only survivor out of all of my parents. Because both my parents got divorced after Germany. We went to Augsburg where my dad was working, and they got a divorce at that point.

How old were you? I was about 16, 17. Oh, that's a tough age. Yeah. Because they were together most of your childhood then. Yep. Well, we had a space where, like I was saying, we were at Fort Devens, and then I guess he and my mom weren't seeing eye to eye, so just said well I'm going to go on a tour in Vietnam I'm just going to buy you a house where

do you want to live and she said San Jose California near my sister and that's where we ended up and then two years later after he was done with his tours of duty and he was ready to re-engage with the family we all met him in Augsburg, Germany, but that's also where the worst of the fighting happened. Yeah. How many siblings did you have? I had two at the time and then we had, I have another third sister as well. So that was from the second marriage my mother was in. Okay. So she had her. Yeah. So I have three sisters. Are you close with them today or? Oh, very close. That's good. Yep. And I would imagine that, you know, their experience of childhood is pretty similar as far as like the mom, dad dynamic. They were a little afraid of your dad too. Very much so. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And what, what did, did they go into the military at all or?

No, none of them are military. I'm the last one, I think in my generation. Um, that That's it. None of my kids have joined the military either. Got it. So even though things were a little rough while you were growing up with your dad and later he got his problems figured out, you know, you were afraid of him, yet you wanted to follow in his footsteps career-wise. Oh, yeah. Why do you think that is well just that uh out of everything else as a son you you your love for your mom and your dad are always unbreakable i mean yeah things got terrible and i would wonder why did dad do that you know but i never ever broke my love for him it never broke my love for him um and on top of that he was the one that was showing me how to like, there were, we had

these beautiful moments as well. You know, when he hadn't been drinking and we, he had a holiday like a Christmas, I remember sitting down with him and, uh, he showed me how to wax my sled. So it'd go faster down the hills on the, on the, everything. And he showed me how to do all that and we shellacked it and everything made it look really good. So I had a really cool looking ride, you know. Yeah, yeah.

So we did that together. And so we had some really beautiful moments too. And that's kind of what I, you tend to want to hang on to those moments. I think more than you do the negative. And I think that's what I carried through with is that my dad was still a very good man when it came down to it. And I knew that it was usually related when he, you know, the bad times were always related to when he'd hang out and came home late, you know, and I knew he was drunk because he could tell the difference. So you learned to compartmentalize certain aspects of him. The way I'm seeing it, correct me if I'm wrong here, it's like on the one hand, he's the badass military guy who does

very important things that I'm like, Ooh, that's like superhero type stuff. On the other hand, you have to have an understanding at a young age of what substance abuse looks like. And when he's on that, he's not a nice guy and does some bad things. And then on the other hand, when he's home and not on substances and spending time with you, he actually is your real dad. And as far as like there's a real loving relationship there. So you kind of have to straddle these three worlds. Yeah, and you're in survival mode when you're in a household that's like this where you know people are violent and it happens a lot off more often than you think and um you just learn how to survive and the way you survive is you hang on to the good moments and i think that's kind of what i did my siblings did also and um that's what got us through and and honestly i did

he would take me on you know when when he was uh sometimes on duty and stuff it's like i remember showing he got permission to show me the armory. That was the best day of my life. I mean, there's guns on racks, there were grenade launchers, all this stuff. And he's like, I'm like, what's this? And he's like, that's this. And I'm like, just, it was like a kid in a candy store. So there were those moments that I really wanted to be like him because I was like,

man, I'd love to, you know, shoot all those guns, um, and stuff like that. So yeah, that's why I respected him. That's why I grew up and I wanted to go like him because I was like, man, I'd love to, you know, shoot all those guns and stuff like that. So, yeah, that's why I respected him. That's where I grew up and I wanted to go into the army. And then when he told me he didn't want to, I was like, you got to be kidding. Fuck you, I'm doing it. Yeah. But when he explained it to me, I was like, that kind of makes sense. Yeah.

So you went into the Air Force, not the army. And I went in the Air Force and became part of the chair force. Yeah. But in the military, like obviously following in the footsteps in that way but it's that's a real testament to you that like you you got into such one of the most like respectable professions you can get into and obviously we're going to go through it but you had a a lot of tours of duty there in a sense like a lot of different success and everything but you had to endure a childhood where you see things that no child is supposed to have to see. Because again, it's when, you know, to be respectful of your father, he had a substance abuse problem. And it's when he's on that, that you see these things. But like, you know, to be in the military,

to be in the Air Force, you have to be able to obviously be a high functioning individual, which you proved you could be. But do you think there's also some things from your childhood, like we're going to get to your military career and things you saw, but do you think there's things from your childhood that develop coping mechanisms and possible PTSD from some of the things you had to witness? Oh yeah. I've actually had clinical physio, um, psychiatrists tell me so that yes and we actually did regressive uh therapy

what does that look like well it's they they sit you down they get to know you in your story and then you know they tell you write it all down all these memories you have of your dad being violent and uh we're gonna have to relive those you know not not under hypnosis or anything but we talk it over and sometimes i'd cry and I'd be angry all over again. But the whole idea is that you kind of tear the scab off. Yes. Relive the experience. And then you've got somebody who's qualified there, a psychiatrist that can help walk you through that and make you realize, Jason, you were a kid then.

You couldn't have prevented your mother from getting hurt. You realize this now. Okay. Try to nurture that feeling and let that part of you realize that it's okay. You didn't have control of your dad and your mom fighting. And that's the kind of context you get from regression is that you have to tear all that terribleness off, relive that memory, and then give it new context.

So even in a way, maybe I'm misunderstanding this, but it's like you were just a kid, but you felt like you were carrying some guilt for that? For not being able to stop it? That was the hardest thing for me to do. It's just, I wanted, when they asked me about it, I would break down and cry, and I'd be

like, you gotta understand, you're cowering in your own bedroom sometimes when he would come home late at night i had exactly the same thing happen i was going to try to kill my stepdad with a baseball bat yeah i ended up i watched him i watched him abuse my mother and i was like i'm gonna kill this guy and my mother was thrown across the room pregnant with my younger sister oh my god and i saw this whole thing and i looked at the baseball bat this is the first time i ever

had telepathy in my life i looked at the baseball bat i was in bed because the fight ended up in my bedroom and i was 12. i looked at the baseball bat and i was like i'm going to kill this guy with the baseball bat i didn't know what else to do i mean this guy was 4 15 times stronger than i was and he was drunk and i looked at the baseball bat i looked at my mother my mother was like on her back she got thrown through the closet she was all the her back pregnant with my younger sister. She looked at me, and she communicated like that. If you miss, we're all dead. Yeah.

But I remember looking at it going, I was 12. 12. I was 12 years old. Jesus Christ. So I know exactly. I've been there. It's playoff time, and that means it's now or never. Don't miss out on the last few weeks of football action with PrizePix, the best place to win cash while watching the playoffs. In each

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Very, very intense. You do. You unpack all that later on, and I can tell you that one of the experiences we had to relive was the night when he nearly killed my mother. What happened? He just came home drunk and wanted her to cook him a breakfast at 3 a.m. in the morning and was yelling at her about it because he was just drunk and he was hungry. You wake her up out of bed?

Yeah. Kicked her with his cowboy boots on and everything. Were you asleep and woke up and heard this? Yeah, the whole house woke up. And the thing was is that you just shut up, you cower in your room, you just wait until it's over. And this was the night when I knew if I didn't do something, my mom would probably be in a hospital or dead.

What did you do oh i had to i got i finally got the guts to to stand up to him is what i did what'd you do i was just tears were rolling down my face because my my door was kind of facing the wall that he had my mother pinned against and he was literally choking her and she couldn't breathe and i was like i have to do something and i stood up and i don't know what possessed me, but I walked out and I just kind of grabbed him by the shoulders and pulled him back. And he kind of like let go of my mother. And he looks at me with this shocked look in his face, like you're standing in front of me. Uh, what the hell, you know? And I just said, dad, you are

killing mom. And he just kind of woke up. He woke up, he got sober real quick at that point. And he went right back to his bedroom. And then I grabbed my mom and she was still kind of gasping. I said, are you okay? You still, can you breathe? And she was like, you know, she's trying to get her breath back. So that's what happened. How old are you when that happens? That was when I was 16, 15, 16. Um, it was getting near the end of their marriage as well. That's in Germany when that was going on? Yeah, it was in Augsburg.

So that's what you have to live through. And yeah, you do have to parse it. And you do have to think about what the situation's like. Do you think part of me, and this might be totally off base here, I'm sorry if it is, but do you think part of joining literally the military military like going into the air force or something like that is also to kind of channel i don't want to even say like rage but channel some of that energy

into something that you view as like the highest level of being productive i could agree with that because uh one of the things that happened early in life because the situation at home was so bad was there's a part of me at a very young age. I remember honestly thinking I'm never going to be like that. I didn't hate my dad, but I was like, I'm never going to be like that. And I never was. I never struck anybody out of anger and things like this. I mean, yeah, I've yelled at my kids sometimes out of frustration, but I've never really done any of that like he did.

And I never really got into alcohol like he did. I mean, I've had my party days for about two years in, in Sembach. But after that, I kind of was like, I'm done. I'm, I'm done, you know? Um, so I, I, I, I made good on my promise that I wouldn't be like that. And I've been that, that all my life. I mean, yeah, I'll, I'll drop a few on some beers or something and we'll have a great time, but I don't get, you know, totally drunk. Good for you. So I've made good on that

promise to myself, even as a kid that I knew that I wouldn't be like that. But at the same time, there were some other parts of this that took maturity to get through, like pretty soon after that choking incident I just told you about with my dad. My sisters all are very much more scared than I was at the time. They said, Jay, you're the only person that can tell mom and dad they need a divorce because I don't want him to hurt mom anymore. And I had to sit down with my dad and tell him it's okay to get a divorce. You did that?

I did that, yeah. I don't think I've ever heard that before. Well, it was on behalf of my sisters, and it actually stopped things from happening because we had another incident about a week later where he nearly put a bullet through my mom's head. He held a gun to her? Yeah, he went out after her, and he was going to put a bullet. He actually loaded the gun in front of us kids and said, he pulled out a.357 Magnum. He said, these are real bullets. And he said, I'm going out to kill your mother out the door they had to call the cops and luckily they caught him in the parking lot when he was he pulled it out and he tried to

take a pot shot and they didn't they didn't charge him for this no because nobody was hurt and uh that's the way the army kind of is back then it was the old brown shoe days it was totally different now where you know you get all you have to do is post a meme and poof you're done yeah it's not it wasn't like that back then people were actually in bars getting in fights and that was okay how did your dad react when you sat down with him i guess in a sober moment obviously to tell him like you're a 15 16 year old kid his son telling him like dad get a divorce like how does he even respond to that he kind of just looked at me for a minute and i could tell he was mulling it over he was like very surprised that i even said it um but then after a long pause he just said yeah you know uh maybe so and And then he just thought about it.

And I walked away and went into my room and just read some books or whatever else I felt like doing that day. And he thought about it. And sure enough, a little while later, that's exactly what happened. Wow. That's, like I said, I've never heard anything like that. That takes serious balls. You know what's silly about the whole thing is that after that event and they got their divorce, Like I said, I've never heard anything like that. That takes serious balls. You know what's silly about the whole thing is that after that event and they got their divorce, my mom and dad sat us all down as kids and said, who do you want to live with?

I was the only one that wanted to live with my dad. And I don't know. My dad thought I did it out of sympathy or some other lower emotion in my mind. Because later on in life, when he was in his 50s or 60s, we had a heart to heart. And he asked me, well, why did you do that? Yeah. He said, all your sisters went with your mother. You were the only one who stayed with me.

And I said, you needed me. And he just cried. And he said, and it ended up, this was after he'd been through the Alcohol Anonymous. And it still brings tears to my eyes, but he literally broke down right then because we had been through so much. And he said, you remember when you came to that meeting, and I finally confessed to the whole group of the AA folks there, and he said that I was part of his reason for healing. He said, I needed somebody to love me. He said, because I'd done so many bad things. He said, I didn't even know why you stayed.

He said, but I was very thankful at the same time, and we got to know each other and um and after 10 years of going to AA he finally gave it up and then he finally said I get it and when he brought me into that meeting and he looked directly at my face and he said I'm done son but he told everybody that it's your love that got me through this that's amazing obviously you have a huge and i can see it on your face right now obviously i'm fighting a tear yeah but you obviously have a huge heart because on on one hand you want to protect your younger sisters and everything yes on the other hand you want to protect your mom who can't protect yourself on the other hand you love your dad you just wish you didn't do this one thing because it makes him a horrible person when he does that. But you were able to put that aside and say like, this is my dad. He can get better and he needs me to get

better. Yeah. I don't know what told me that inside. I just knew that I loved him and I didn't want him to go through it alone. I knew that that was really my driving force. And actually after 10 years of him finally trying to get through a recovery because he'd start and he'd stop, he'd start and he'd stop. But it took him 10 years to finally give it up. And then he became all the man and dad, the husband, everything he should have been all his life, he blossomed. That's a great story. That's a great ending to the story. Honestly, that's what I waited for.

I mean, me and my sisters were actually sitting there on his deathbed uh later on in life and my mother my mother that whom he had divorced at that time came and they were on one side of the living room me my sisters were on the other um and they held each other's hands and they both said we love each other and we i'm glad and i broke down and my sisters broke down i was like this is what my life was all about right here and what I went through. Because that was the moment that I was like, they finally reconciled. And about a month later, he passed away. That's incredible. So I was very happy to see that moment happen.

Yeah. And you made it happen in a lot of ways. Yeah. So that's just the kind of stuff that happens. But yeah, that's PTSD for you. For sure. You know, but there's a part of it that it though but yeah that's ptsd for you for sure you know but um there's a part of it that there's a it teaches you lessons as well once you learn how to cope with it and that's what i had to get through and i'm still getting through i mean it never really

leaves you you always have the emotions there you know and you always have the memories there what's what's in in the middle of all this because you're living on army bases and stuff you're in other countries so you're an art you're.S. Army base kid. We hear about this all the time with folks whose parents were in the military. But what was school like for you? Were you good in school? Because obviously, like, you have a lot of distractions at home and, you know, you kind of have to raise your health yourself in some ways. Like, how are you doing in your actual with your peers and things like that um i actually wasn't all that good in the early uh early days because like you said you know i had the specs on you know the glasses they didn't even know i had a problem until the fifth grade oh so you were blind as a bat i was blind as a bat yeah but as soon as the world of vision i was given the world of vision i i used to pull straight a's. Oh, wow. Yeah.

The only time they dropped off was in high school and I got D's in a couple of classes, but I still passed. What motivated you to like, obviously you're smart, but like what motivated you to also put the work in when there's so much bullshit going on at home and it's not like you understand it? It's a type of escape and a feeling of self-accomplishment that you wouldn't get in the family group. Because I know my mom was very nurturing, but my dad could sometimes be overcritical. You know, even helping him, you know, with the sled. There was a couple of times he yelled at me because I didn't grab the right tool from the toolbox. You know, and then he would say something else derogatory about, you know about my inability to think right or something stupid. And those were the things that would kind of tear down at me. So the schoolwork was kind of a nice little escape.

And I could leave all of my crap behind and I could just focus on that. And it gave me a way to feel proud of myself that I didn't always get at home. But you had said earlier you were also – you're also an artist. Like you enjoy art. When did you discover that? Actually, that was a little girl in the playground. Her and her friends were drawing pictures. And I remember walking over and she's drawing the pictures. I was like, wow, those are good. And she got real embarrassed and she was like, oh, you can't see these. So I was like, I was inspired by that because I was like, wow, I wonder if I could get that good, you know? And I started drawing from a very early age like five years old on what would you draw um i would draw uh airplanes because world war ii was

a big thing i used to love dinosaurs too i'd draw dinosaurs i'd get whatever whatever dinosaur books i get my hands on world war ii books of dog fights of airplanes i love that um and then i remember in fifth grade i switched off to hot rods and other uh sports cars and things like this and i drew i drew all those and then i got into landscapes as well drawing trees and all these kinds of things so i just kind of kept expanding out and trying new things until i finally got good at it and that's another escape obviously it's another beautiful i've always had yeah that's kind of yeah that's kind of like an abusive relationship that's what kind of happens sometimes is people get really into a a different world with their hobbies and i did that you know guitar drawing whatever escape i

could i could get into how did your sisters like escape from things like what was their thing uh we we did a lot of getting the hell out of there. My mom also thought of that too because in Augsburg in particular when the violence really started to escalate, we used to go to the DYA, which is the Defense Youth Organization. And I was selling candy in the candy bar, but they would have the – when disco was around in 1975, 76. And my sister was really good at dancing. She always used to get the prizes. But she'd be out on the dance floor and I'd be back in the candy bar giving people stuff.

And it was just a way to get, my mom would take us to a safe place, in other words, to that place. And she would be there all the time. So we dedicated a lot of time to all the other youth from our family just to get out of that environment. And it was a good place.

I mean, we knew a lot of people. We went on a lot of tours because the youth organization would take us to places like Oberammergau, Neuschwanstein Castle, all these really cool places to go, you know, Nuremberg where they make the clocks and everything. And they did a couple of trials there too. If I'd been older, I definitely would have been trying.

Yeah. But yeah, there is a lot of really good things and good memories from that. And honestly, I can say that my mom provided a lot of that. Yeah. And you know what? It's also like even in some of the darker stories, I always try to find like some silver linings, but it's clear that you guys had to learn a great skill for the rest of your life, which is to be incredibly independent and reliant on yourself because of what you're dealing with. And also, you know, you're in foreign places too.

Like you're not, it's harder, but you found a way. Yeah. And you're uprooting your friendships with some folks and then starting new ones after every three years or so. Yeah, there's a difference to the military life, and that's part of it. Have you and your mom, like since you started unpacking things like this with therapy and stuff like that, have you and your mom had a chance to have private discussions about how she saw things when this was coming up?

Yep. What's that like? It's very therapeutic for her and I both. And sometimes it's just a vent, you know, especially for my mom because she never actually got the same therapy I did. I mean, I was in the military. We get, you know, the medical benefits of talking to people like psychiatrists and stuff like that, specifically about PTSD because they deal with that a lot.

My mom, on the other hand, she was a registered nurse, but she never got to see anybody about these kinds of things. She just dealt with it all her life. So sometimes when I talk to her, it just comes out very raw, just like we were still there because she's never been through regression therapy like I have to recontext all of that. Got it. Well, that's a lot, man. I mean, before you ever even start this career, we're going to be talking about like you lived six lifetimes over and had to experience things most kids don't. So I appreciate you sharing that with everyone to get a little more context. But there's a lot of good there too that we're not focusing on either. For sure. For sure. There was times my dad was helping me ride my first bike and all these other things. Like I said, there's some really beautiful memories in all of that. The full circle moment though, you talk about with when your dad was, was nearly

passing and like the whole family's together. And obviously he's been a great guy for many years now off of alcohol and stuff. And everyone gets to be there to see that. I was so proud of him. That's awesome. Yeah. I haven't, I really haven't heard a story like that before. That's, that's, that's a happy ending. Well, I hope other people take encouragement because that's something that everybody needs, no matter what depth that your dad or whoever is abusive, they need love too. And honestly, it may take 10, 20 years for them to finally realize that they are. And that might just be the one moment that they need, just like my dad did. And then he finally realizes for himself. Yeah. And you know what? It's also a good example, you know, in doing this job, I'm so fortunate to be able to do this for a living and talk with so many fascinating people like you across all

different subject matters. But what ties everyone together is they all have human experiences. They all got their background, their life, how they came up, their environment. And, you know, we live in a society now of the internet where everything has to be zero or a hundred. We either have to vote no or vote yes, or one or two or black or white, but the world is, it's so gray and, you know, people are very, very imperfect, not the least of which is me. And, you know, when, when you see a full circle where someone can even do some objectively terrible things like your dad did, and you, the son who had to see this, can see that come all the way back and see the good in him and see the good have a chance to come out on the other side as well in the context of what is a full life. And then to have that moment where the family kind of comes together, that's a beautiful, beautiful thing, man.

You're right. Looking back on it, I can see the lessons in life and how it helped me to mature and become the person I am. Because no matter what your experiences are, if you're not learning from them, you're not doing it right. Yeah. And I always tried to take what was bad and at least learn from it. Yeah.

You know, and try to make it better. And that's something that I, again, early on in life I learned because I was like, you know, I can either make life suck even more or I can finally start, you know, I'll go play with my friends today rather than having to deal with this crappy feeling I have right now that, you know, dad's out getting drunk and I know something's going to happen. I'll just go out there and escape this. And you learn how to cope like that, but then you'd start to also learn, you know, all these mature things, things that help help you mature later in life because now you can reflect on all of that. For sure.

And realize that these are the ways people get through things. Like you said, the gray area of life that is not so, you know, if I'd listened to half of the people that wanted me to do one thing with my dad and not the other, yeah, they would have had him in jail. For sure. But here it is. He needed love. I remember just a couple years ago the stepdad that I was talking about earlier when I was going to try to kill him with a baseball bat. I didn't say kill him. I was going to try to neutralize him because he was a clear danger to my family. And I don't know if death was on the mind, but I wanted to neutralize the threat, basically.

But I got contacted in the middle of the pandemic, and one of his daughters reached out to me, and she's like, Dan's on his deathbed. He's got 24, 48 hours to live. Oh, wow. And is there anything you'd like to relay a message to? I thought it was kind of odd that she reached out to me. And I don't have the fondest memories, obviously. But I was like, you know what? I wish him well on his next journey.

You can relay that to him. I didn't want to give him any negative. So I said, I wish you well on your next, you know. And that was how it all ended. Because I like to think of people as giving them another opportunity to you know that there's some good there yeah people are going to have to answer for things they do especially if they're not repentant about it or anything but you know the older i get the more i understand when you hold that hate in your heart not good and and you hold on to those grudges and you know there's natural human emotions you have in the moment with things for sure. But when you let that carry you down, it ends up having a bigger negative impact on you more than anything.

You know, and when you free them of that with a level of forgiveness or just, you know, a sign of goodwill like you did, it's actually more powerful for you. And they're going to deal with their maker how they deal with them. Well, here, James, would you say now that because now you've matured from all of that, just like me, I think back on those days and now I'm able to actually think about, well, you know, my mind is what I make of it. If I allow positive or negative in there, it's just like they talk about those wolves, you know, whichever wolf you feed is going to be the one that's stronger. That's right. And would you say that that's kind of how you feel now is that you fed the right wolf rather than letting the other one just, you know, eat, eat the, eat the meat. I said to when we closed the deal and I was losing all the money that I made from moment of contact and hadn't even paid back our investors fully.

Um, when the deal was finalized and I had to walk away from it all, I relayed a message to the guy who ripped me off, and I said, tell him. I said, this is Danny Grant. I said, Danny, you tell the gentleman, I'll keep his name out, that I wish him well, and then I forgive him. And he goes, oh, my God, really? And I said, yeah, let him know.

Because to me, that was a way of like, hey, shit happens, and it's absolutely diabolical. I'd like to think that this guy didn't deliberately rip me off and that I'm going to forgive him. And it was just like, who was that guy that was, come on, James, I'll think of his name in a second. Gandhi. Muhammad Gandhi?

Muhammad Gandhi. Muhammad Gandhi apparently blessed his killer. He did. Yeah, the guy killed him, and as he was dying, he blessed him. It was like, whoa. Yeah, that comes. So powerful. Can you imagine?

Yeah. Yeah, so anyway, I'm not, you know. So you did experience that then i did because i i felt like i just wanted to kind of rise above it and let it go let it go let it go don't harbor that element am i upset about it yeah of course i am i'd be lying to say i wasn't and did it really devastate me financially of course it did but i picked myself up by the bootstraps my dad used to say to me life's what happens when you're busy making other plans pick myself up yeah and move on yeah wow yeah and i have to say my wife shows that same thing because one of my kids got abused in a daycare when i was in the

air force um yeah my second born she's uh she she was abused in the daycare. Oh, my God. We had two years of pure hell, sleepless nights, anger about why, why, why. And my wife actually in the courtroom, she just looked right at the daycare provider and said, I forgive you. And I told my wife, I don't know how you could do that. But I understand it because I had to do the same for my dad. It's just as good for her as it was for the other person. Exactly. She said, yeah, it was kind of for her, but she said it was also for me because I'm releasing this.

Yeah. And I'm just letting God deal with this because I know it's too much for me to handle. It doesn't do you any good. Yeah, but guess what happened? That ill sentiment does not do your body any good, man. You got to let that go like a duck, water off a duck's back back but yeah not easy easier said than done right but guess what the next night after we had that happen in the courtroom we both slept well we had not slept well for many many months yeah because it was just eating us up alive i got to tell you man when i signed those papers

and finalized at least i had some resolution even though despite it wasn't the resolution that i was hoping for but at least i had resolution because that knew you had action it was it was over the nightmare is like it happened this is what happened i moving on like moving on well there's some great lessons in there you just had so i i'm sure a lot of people are going to pick up on that i appreciate you sharing all that jay but once you once you do get out of your childhood and and you do join the air force what what was what was the beginning like just take me there well you're 18 right yeah i'm 18 i'm actually 20 because i spent two years years trying to make it doing security work in San Jose, California. And that's what I did. And then eventually I just decided, you know, I really want to prove to myself, I'm going to make a

commitment to the Air Force. And I'm just going to do this, you know. And I went in and talked to the recruiter. And sure enough, I was by January of 85, I was in the Air Force going through basic. I think you started to say this a little bit earlier, but we got off it. What was the thought process on choosing the Air Force specifically? Oh, just that my dad had said that it's a good military service where you learn technical skills that you can use on the outside when you retire. And that's really what governed the whole thing is I knew I could get an education, which I did. I got my bachelor degree through the Air Force. Oh, wow. And all the other stuff.

And I've never looked back on it as being a bad thing. I mean, yeah, I had some rough spots here and there, but nothing that I can complain about. I mean, I have all my medical taken care of. My wife's got all her medical. All my kids were taken care of very well by the Air Force. So, and the benefits, good grief. I mean, where else can you go, honestly, in today's world and retire at the age of 40, 42 and have such a lot of, you know, you've got, you know,

you're going to have an income. You can't beat that. No, you can't. I mean, yes, you're giving up a lot because I had to sacrifice a lot. My family did too. And I was away from a lot in several parts of my, my, uh, my tenure in the air force. So yeah, there's a give and take there, but it's, it was well worth it at the end of it all. But when you went in, you didn't have like a specific thing in mind you wanted to do within the air force. You were kind of open to wherever. Yeah. I just took the test. They'd have what is that as fab test is what they call it. And it shows your propensity to learn things. And I had a very high mechanical and administrative score.

So usually the guys with mechanical, they go into a field, which is what I did in the first few years, like three years of my career, was I was an airframe repair specialist. And what does that consist of? That's where you, you know, you have like large-bodied aircraft, like C-130s, you know, KC-135s. They get broke.

They get cracks in their wings from flying. There's a lot of vibrations in the craft and the things that break. So that's what I would fix. I would go out there and help. Sometimes we'd have to pull out gear tracks because after landing so many times, sometimes those landings are hard. And, excuse me, the aircraft needed to be repaired and you'd have to pull out the gear tracks. These things are like as tall as a ceiling in here and they weigh over a hundred pounds and you have to pull them out

and put in the new ones and shoot the rivets in and everything else. That's what I did. And where were you stationed doing this? That was Arkansas, Little Rock, Arkansas. Okay. So that was my very first duty station after my first technical school. What are we thinking, like mid eighties-ish here? Yeah, I went through 85 to 80...

87. 87 to 88, somewhere in there. And where'd you go right after that? That's when I had to cross-train out because they had too many people in my career field. And when that happens, they just take the extra people, usually the lowest ranking people, and they re-qualify them in another field. And then when that happens, they just take the extra people, usually the lowest ranking people, and they requalify them in another field. So I switched over to Intel at that point. And I ended up in Sambach, Germany for my first duty station. Did you have a preference for that? Or did they say you're doing Intel? I had a preference. I took another series of tests and they presented me with jobs that I

qualified for. And I saw the one that said, Ooh, I'll be monitoring telecommunications and I'll have a top secret clearance. And I was like, Ooh, sign me up, baby. I was like, yeah, I got this. I love this. So that's what I did. Okay. And where did they, where did you say they sent you again? For the second one, the second school was Goodfellow Air Force Base. And where's that? That's Texas. Okay. in Texas.

So this is where you train in the telecommunications thing. Now, we started to talk about this earlier with some of the specific examples James was talking about where you're listening to things, to phone calls and stuff coming off the base. But, like, I guess prior to that, like, what's the full gamut of your responsibilities once they train you for that that you're doing? You have specific training on protecting people's privacy first and foremost. Okay. Because unlike my, my career field is unlike the ones that listen in on like our adversaries to our nation. We're talking about, I'm going to a military installation where American citizens and military

personnel are talking. They're Americans. They have rights to their privacy. So you had to be trained on how to handle all that stuff. And then if you also heard and captured information about a crime, that's going to be committed, like somebody is messing around on their wife or something, and somebody is going to get shot, killed, whatever. You have to report that to the USI or another respective organization that can handle it. So you have to learn how to handle all those things as well as learn how to handle the equipment because the equipment is very technical as well.

Like I said, sometimes we're monitoring radio and electronic frequencies and things like this. Some of the people I got trained actually was one of the few that got to do satellite cons on Inmarsat. I used to copy that stuff. So these are all the kind of responsibilities you would have. It's just taking down whatever telecommunications that are being used at the time. And we expanded down into cell phones when they started to become prevalent. And we expanded out into computers when they became a big thing as well

because in the 80s there weren't that many computers. So we grew into all of those things, and that's what we were monitoring. So we would go out to the missions. We'd take in the emails, take in the phone calls and everything else. You'd go out to missions? What do you mean by that? Well, we'd go – almost always it was a two-week mission, unless there was like an operation like Noble Eagle where you had to be there for months. So you're, meaning you're sent somewhere in the world where there's something going on and you got, you're like the, you're like the Mr. Wolf team.

Open up the, open up the bag and say, all right, we're here to do our thing and take care of that for you. Yeah, like when Desert Storm kicked off, they just called us down to CENTCOM. We'd started our monitoring there. We covered down on some of the of the missions that they had there. And they actually did change some of their plans because of what we intercepted. And they wanted to make sure that what they were doing was going to be kept secret. Are you able, without revealing like classified specific stuff, can you say like an example of something you might have intercepted? Yeah. intercepted yeah i remember one day in particular that ended up being a big deal was uh at some

point when we're when we had entered into iraq you know when saddam had put all the burn pits out there and filled them full of oil and just started on fire well we intercepted a call that stated that uh there are a lot of these uh civil engineers being called up from the army to come and they pulled me over and they said hey jay your dad was in the army what are these what is this that we've got like a whole ton of these these civil engineers coming i'm like well that's kind of weird because my dad described it as being only one or two of these guys assigned to any particular battalion and they're the ones that responsible to get through the things like waterways and putting a bridge up and you know getting them from point a to point b there's and sometimes they get into explosives and things like waterways and putting a bridge up and, you know, getting them from point A to point

B. And sometimes they get into explosives and things like that too. But here we are, you know, just the beginning of the desert storm that, you know, Saddam has these pits and I just put the two and two together. I'm like, well, if I already use, you know, a whole bunch of civil engineers for a particular job, what would I do that with? Well, maybe they're going to come in and fill in all of these pits that are burning right now and preventing them from, you know, getting from point A to point B. And sure enough, that's what they were planning. That is what happened.

And they briefed the general and he flew through the roof. Schwarzkopf, he flew through the roof. That's pretty cool. So you impact things in a serious love yeah so they delayed that part of the plan and i think they came up with a deception plan also just to make sure that it went down properly and you saw how we kicked butt oh yeah so that was quick what would have happened had you not that not have what would have happened people's lives could have been in danger because if there was any inkling that saddam would have had a precursor that that's what

we were going to do the critical time for these civil engineers is when they're actually like trying to bridge through that fire zone or the burning pits. And that would leave them open to tank fire, you know, and all that, all the other forces that were available to Saddam. And he would have precursors to the next steps because he would know where we were coming from and where he would best put all of his forces. So you could have saved a lot of lives. Maybe. I don't know. Could have. I could have.

Well, my team could have. Right. Bottom line is you're on the front lines of some of the most serious stuff for your job, like affecting how you guys do it on your communications intel. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Did you like your work? I liked parts of it. at how you guys do it on your communications intel. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Did you like your work? I liked parts of it. However, along with all the phone calls that were mission related,

you do get a lot of, I hate to say it and relate it this way, but you get to be kind of like what a cop is when they just see too much bad. You would not believe the level of darkness people have in their souls. And when they're not, they don't know they're being monitored, the kind of crap you get exposed to in their lives, it affects you because you're like, holy crap, I just heard this.

What kinds of things? Just awful things like, you know, pastors that are sodomizing their staff. You're talking really serious crap. And you do have to report on some of that. And then there's other times when you just know somebody and they're messing around on their wife, but at work you would never suspect. And so you're like, I know who you are. I know what the hell you're doing.

You're not what you're portraying to people. And you just, I'm done. You just get to the point where you're just kind of like done with that part of it. Does it make you hate people? I didn't hate people. I just didn't like the dark side of people. And I was like, man, I just don't want to have to listen to this after a while. And I did that for so much of my career.

I was so happy when they sent me to school to become a joint planner and I actually got to help plan and make war plans and stuff because it got me out of my career field and I didn't have to monitor the phones anymore kind of thing because it was just, it didn't help my PTSD, let me put it that way. I already had trust issues from my dad. I didn't need this stuff, you know, so that's kind of how it went. So yeah, it was, it didn't help the PTSD.

All right. So Desert Storm, I would say, just looking at the timeline here though, that would mean that. That 91? Yeah. Like, yeah. Yeah, 90. I think it's 91. We can check that, Alessio, but I'm pretty sure it's 91.

So it's shortly after this where you get sent to Nevada, right? Yeah. I go from Sembach, Germany for my first two years and has a 1N6. A 1N6? Well, at the time it was called 209. We were 209s. English? That's a career field designator. It's usually a six digit number and it has in there your precursor numbers, the first three digits, and it tells you your career field. Um, so 209 was my career field. And then it starts the next two numbers, um, designated what skill level you are. There's three skill levels that you're a skill level three, you're an apprentice. Skill level five meant you were a journeyman and you've been doing it a while. And then there's a skill level seven, which is what I retired as, which is the highest level in craftsmen. Um, and there, I think there's only one other one that you get a top, you know, if you actually max out your rank, like you're a chief master sergeant and you have to go to another school for senior management and stuff like that, then

you get designated with the very last one. Got it. So what was the decision process and going to Nevada? Was that something you were involved in requesting or were you told to go there? What did you know? All I knew was when you, whenever you are coming up for a new assignment, you're allowed to put in preferences. And Nevada was one of them.

I put in just, I heard Vegas, you know, Vegas. Yeah. I was, you know, put it all on black.

Yeah. Jason's like, Vegas! Stays in Vegas, yeah. Jay's staying in Vegas. I've seen the worst darkness. What's a little coke and hookers? Oh, my God. Oh, my God, right?

I'm going to go from bad to worse. Yeah. Guys, it was not the only one I had on my list. Who else did you put on your list? You remember? I put Hawaii. Another great place. Another great place.

Yep. So I had that. And then what was the other one? Colorado. Okay. All right. So you were all out west though. Yeah.

I loved the idea of the mountains. I loved that. And I loved Hawaii just for the fact that I'd never been there. And again, Vegas, because I'd never been there either. So it was more location-based rather than whatever mission-based was going to be. That was more your preference. Yeah. It was just out of, you know, where would I like to grow up?

Yeah. So that's how it was. And at this point, you know, are you married with kids? Nope. No? I met my wife actually after the first year I was in the program. Okay. That's what we're about to get to.

That's right. So you get to Nevada. This is still like just regular military stuff. What are you doing when you first get there? I end up underneath the training shop. So I'm helping train people in my position because I'd already been doing it for a couple of years. So I was able to train other people on the positions that we have. There was another side of the job that was different from the telecommunications monitoring that they do at Nellis. They since quit doing it, but they also had another part, which they called doing the red flag exercises, which was going up to Black Mountain and doing all the other stuff we'll probably talk about and touch on. But that was another aspect that was very unique to Las Vegas work and Nellis

work for, for me and everybody else that was a one in six, uh, that went in there. And you're training people. You're not even 30 years old yet. Yeah. You've seen, you've been around. Yeah. Yeah. And I was good at what I did and people recognize me for that.

They knew I was a good frontline analyst as a three and a five level. I had my five level by the time I got to Las Vegas. So that was where I was stepping into it. And I was also chosen by the training shop to be a person that could train the trainers as well. I was also chosen for some very handpicked prototyping training. Like we had other people that were radar specific. In other words, they did ELINT, I did SIGINT. Can you explain that to people?

Well, signals intelligence is SIGINT. That's where telecommunications is within that. So whether you're doing it against the adversary or you're doing it like I was for military installations of our own, then you're receiving it like I was for military installations of our own, then you're receiving signals from radio waves or from other means that you have to intercept it. And that's called signals intelligence. Now, ELINT, that's electronic intelligence, which is like radars.

That's what, you know, they call them scope dopes. And that's what my wife was. So we're both assigned to the same unit and um one of the prototype training that i got chosen for was i said we wonder if we can cross the streams you know with having a sigint guy because we've got a shortage of people that can come in here and do the elint side of this here at nellis well let's let's grab jay he's he's really smart on things and he knows the systems really well. Maybe he'll take to this. And yeah, that's how I met my wife because she was my trainer.

Oh, so she was in the military too? Yeah. We served up until about the 10-year mark. Then she got out after our second child, after all that rigmarole with my child getting abused in a daycare. Oh, that's right. We already talked about this. Yeah. So that happens as I walk you guys through it. But anyway, that's right. We already talked about this. Yeah. So that happens as I walk through, walk you guys through it.

But anyway, that's how I started. Were you living in Las Vegas proper or were you just like, where were you living? North Las Vegas. You were living in North Las Vegas. Yeah. I lived right across the street from the mayor of North Las Vegas. And how far were you from the Nellis test range? It's probably two to three hour drive.

Oh, wow. It's a long drive to get to the test range. Wow. Okay. Or to the gates that I would go in. Oh, okay. Wow. Wow.

That's a lot of driving. Yeah. And I did it for 180 days out of the year, along with the other people in my squadron. Yeah. Would you ever stay when you drove all the way out there? Because that's three hours each direction, right?

Three, three and a half. Would you ever like stay out in a bunker? That's what we did. Oh, you would? Yeah, we would go up there and do the red flag exercise for two weeks. Then we'd change out crews. Because we had a little place up in Beatty and Tonopah. There was our favorite hotels that we'd always book

whenever we were doing our exercises. But that's how we would do it. We would just, every two weeks, we'd change out the crew. Okay, so you weren't having to go back and forth like, okay, no, no, no, no. It was not like a daily trip. Got it. But essentially the whole beginning of your time there, you're not in the program or anything, which we're going to talk about, which involves you. The first part, no, it took a few months for them to ask me in. Okay. Did you, even before they asked you in, did you like, cause again, you have such high rankings at this point, you're training people, you're being asked to do some serious things, you're an expert in your field, you're also, I guess, like a star because you're young as well.

Like, did you ever have some of your superiors like pull you aside and I don't know if they say like, hey, we got some special things in mind for you or, you know, give you a hint that, you know, listen, keep going, kid. Yeah, in the records that you guys were reading off of, if you go into my job descriptions, I was doing things that some of them didn't do. Like I had to be the plans NCO. What does that mean? Well, plans NCO is usually somebody that you go into the plans office on the base and, like, say during a crisis or a disaster there's all these checklists that you go through because each organization on the base is responsible for either taking in

victims getting motor pool vehicles to do things helping with logistics to get things back and forth getting food all these types of things you all contribute to that as a as being part of the base so a plans nco has to go out there and read all these things of things, you all contribute to that as being part of the base. So a planned NCO has to go out there and read all these things that could possibly happen. Or if we were to defend the base, let's say, these are the things that we would have to participate in. We'd have to give up 10 bodies to secure the perimeter. We have to give up two bodies that are willing to drive this particular truck that are qualified to drive these deuces, which are very large trucks. You know, the ones you've seen in the films.

Got it. They have the big canopy back, you know, and all that stuff. So those are the kinds of things that I had to, you know, go through and read through. And then I'd have to brief all of my staff, the commander on down and say, here, here you go. This is what we're responsible for, sir. And that's a higher level of responsibility than most people would get in the unit. You'd only pick somebody who had a good attention to detail and could pick things up. And even in my records here, it says I picked those things up

and within a month I was able to start things from scratch and get them further down the road. So I've very actual evidence of me not just being some some dude random dude yeah yeah I'm just not some random dude like some people have chosen to speak of me and I'm like oh you knew me huh there you go dude do you yeah don't talk like don't talk shit about me again dude kind of stuff because I've showed you all the documentation of what I actually did. So. And then a few months in, they come to you with this idea of the program.

Yes. All right. So before I ask you about that, just real quickly, because I didn't cover this with you. At any point in your life, whether it be growing up, your early time in the military, I don't know if there's some things you saw or whatever. At any point, had you had a previous interest in or curiosity about or desire to be educated on things that were not of this earth, like whether or not there was intelligent life out there? Yeah, I had when I was in San Jose, California. That was my first UFO sighting.

When was that? I was 10 years old. It must have been 72. Okay. What happened? That was my first UFO sighting. When was that? I was 10 years old. It must have been 72. Okay. What happened? I was just, you know, it was around Christmas time. And my parents, we just called my dad in to come visit because me and my sisters had known that he was gone for two years.

And we were like, where's dad? And she's like, well, he's been working in Vietnam, you know? And I'm like, well, are we going to get to see him again? And so he came home that Christmas and they were all talking in the living room about this, that, and the other. And they agreed eventually at the end of the night that we would join him in Germany. So that's when all that crap happened with all the other things. Anyway, so I'm, I, so I'm getting tired. This adult talk crap was tiring me.

So I went back to my room, walked down the hallway, the lights are off, and I look out the window as I'm walking towards my bed, which is just beneath the window. And this red light looks like it comes down out of the sky, and it's really kind of pinpointing, but it's coming straight at me and it's coming down, down, down, closer, closer, closer, closer. And then it's to the point where it just passes this other little foothill rolling hill where there's this ranch, uh, that's always been perched up there. I think it's still there today. Um, there's other houses

around there, but it used to be totally barren of houses at one point. That's, that's what I'm talking about is those days when it was, there were no houses at the base of my street or at the bottom of my street. So it comes down and it, and then it's in front of this hillside and I could see it lighting up with red light all around it. And then it's still coming directly towards the bottom of my street. And eventually it gets right over my friend Eddie's house at the base of the street or on the bottom of the street. And there's this huge flash of white light, like a flash cube going off. And I kind of, you know, blinked a little bit. But then when I looked, there is this, what it looked like. It won't take long to tell you Neutral's ingredients.

Vodka, soda, natural flavors. So, what should we talk about? No sugar added. Neutral. Refreshingly simple. A drop of mercury. A drop of mercury? Just perfectly silver, smooth.

Because my friend's house was only like three or four rooftops from mine. So it wasn't that far away. It wasn't even a football field. And this thing's. This thing is right over his house. It's hovering like here's his rooftop. This thing is right in his backyard like this. And it's this shape.

It's kind of. How big would you say it was? 30 foot. Oh, 30 foot. Yeah. So this isn't like a little. This was not. Tic, 30 foot. Yeah. Oh, so this isn't like a little tic-tac. This was not a little, yeah, it's not something you can, it's not basketball size.

This is big, this is like a camper size. Okay. Yeah, camper sized vehicle or craft. So anyway, there it is. It's just sitting there and then it starts moving towards the street because, you know, this is my friend's backyard. His driveway's on this side of the house. There's a lamp post on the end of his driveway because he's got the house at the end of the street that has the lamp there.

And so it's moving across. And I'm starting to scream, UFO, UFO. And nobody's listening to me. They're just like, oh, it's just Jay. He's just whatever. And so I just, I run out into the living room because I'm thinking to myself, that's it. I'm getting my dad's binoculars out of the hallway closet and I'm going to look really good at this thing. And my mom is the only one.

She turns around and she's like, he's serious. Look at that. And she's like, you know, getting up out of her chair to go with me out to the front lawn and start looking at whatever it was I was yelling about. So I'm sitting there peeling my dad's leather case away from his binoculars as I'm running out the door. And we get to the front lawn, me and my ma. And by that time, this thing, this craft had gone over my friend's house. And it was right underneath the light at this time, the street light. And it was just right there.

Was it making any noise? No noise whatsoever. No noise. Was it, was it close enough to hit it with a rock or was it further than that? Um, I could probably chuck a rock at it. Yeah. Because I could throw pretty good, but it

would have been at the extent of my being able to throw it that far. Yeah. This was like a. A couple hundred feet. It was about half a football field. Yeah. Right. And you're 10 years old when this throw it that far. Yeah. This was like a. A couple hundred feet. It was about half a football field. Yeah. Right.

And you're 10 years old when this has happened. Yeah. Yeah. How do you, next day, like, what are you thinking about that? Like, what the fuck did I just say? I actually went and talked to, I walked, I walked over to Eddie's house, but my mom saw it because it came out. And what happened next is I was sitting there thinking about putting my binoculars up, but

I was like, I could see it perfectly anyway. And then it shot up into the sky. It starts rotating around this other point of light. And this other point of light, they kind of do this with each other, kind of orbiting each other. Then the one I saw stops. And at the exact instant that the one that I saw with my mother stops, this other one just shoots. I can't even keep up with my eyes. It's that quick.

I mean, I've seen shooting stars and this thing was way faster than that. Because it just went straight across the horizon, you know, and it was gone. And then the next day I get up and I go running downstairs, you know, down to the, not downstairs, but down to the, my friend my friend, Eddie house, Eddie's house at the base of the street. And, uh, I, I just said, Hey, Ed, you know, did, did you hear or see anything funny last night? And he's like, well, yeah, my TV went on and off. And I heard this weird humming sound. And I said, dude, there was a UFO over your house. He's like, Oh crap. I should have ran out. I knew I should have run out there. I was like, whatever I said, but I told him about the whole thing. And he was like, Oh, that's so cool. I wish I'd run out there it's like whatever i said but i told him about the whole thing and he was like oh that's so cool i wish i'd run out there so it was just a thing with me and my ma and ed you know but you're young and everything like does this affect your

worldview i mean that's like yeah actually the only book i ever bought was eric von danikin's chariots of the gods and i got that just because i was interested. At age 10. At age 10. That was the first book I ever read on it. He's still alive. Isn't he still alive? Yeah. Yeah. Eric Von Daniken's still alive, isn't he? At age 10, I was reading like Captain Underpants or some shit.

But anyway, I really want to meet him too because he's such a, I respect him so much for studying as long as he did. And trying to connect the dots in ancient history and everything else. Because that's what opened up in my mind was that maybe there's something there. So has this become like a little bit of a background theme in your life in the sense that after seeing that, you're always looking up and wondering like, I wonder what's out there? Actually, no. I just had an interest for a while and i'd say that after i read the book that was about as much as i thought as i put into it because i was 10 i was more into playing football at the top of the street honestly or riding my bike and racking myself as i made jumps that i'm wrecking myself on the pavement that kind of stuff and that's what all my friends would do so we did that um more than anything else so it

quickly took a backstage and it was just like a okay i saw something can't explain it oh well time to go play could have been some of us yeah all right so fasting forward to when you got into the me i want you to take me there in a second like the first meeting where you're told about the program but it's fair to say that it wasn't, it wasn't a top of mind thought about alien life or non-human intelligence at that point. You were, you had way many other priorities in your life for those years between that. Right. And see, that's just it. Um, is I just, uh,

I guess we did talk a little bit about it because the first time we went up range for the red flag exercises and training and everything, people automatically started, everybody who was new to it started talking about Dreamland. Dreamland? Yeah. Yeah. The, you know, the place up there in the test range. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But.

Area B. Yes. Thank you. I'll say it again. know the place up there and the test range oh yeah he talks about but uh area yes thank you yeah the area that you bleeped out the words in the program but not the mouth so lip readers can go figure it out right nice job james i use the f-bomb a lot in that film that's what everybody said what were you doing are you saying the f-b-Bomb? Or I was like, no, no. Okay. Anyway. So, so what, what is that first meeting like though? Who's without name in a name, who's in it?

Like, where are you taken to? How does it, how does it connect? We're at Black Mountain. We're in the, we're up there getting our training to do red flag exercises. And we're just hanging out on the front porch of the schoolhouse. And if you look straight across the desert, that's Groom Lake Mountain Range. And people started talking, oh, well, that's Greenland. And everybody's like, oh, they got UFOs there and they got this, that. And I'm like, wow, that'd be cool.

You know, that's the first time we started talking about it. The second time was closer to probably them getting me on board because that was just me and one of the other guys that was already read in driving up range to go, you know, take care of a couple other people that wanted to change out, you know, days. Because we would do that sometimes, you know. Aside from your two weeks up range, you could trade out with other people. You know, because people have stuff to do. They're having, people are having kids. They got to go to a hospital appointment or their grandparents are in the hospital.

Yeah. So we were just going up there to replace people and that was it. So we got, we got to Indian Springs and we started to talk about it. And I was saying, wow, Dreamland, that would be really cool. And he, the guy, I didn't even know it.

He was right in at the time. He's all chuckling at me like, yeah, wouldn't that be great? You know, and I'm even know it. He was right in at the time. He's all chuckling at me like, yeah, wouldn't that be great? You know? And I'm like talking it all up. And we just had a really good conversation about the whole thing. So we go up. We do our bit over on Black Mountain.

And we train the air crews. And then we come on back home. And within a short amount of time after that, I get pulled in. Who pulls you in? The same guy who was in the car with me and two other analysts that are also one in sixes. Now, Lou Elizondo in his book describes like being in his office and a certain guy, I think it was maybe Lukaski, walks in and says like, hey, I need you to apply for this, this or that so you can have clearance. I did not have to apply. So there's nothing like that.

They had their eye on me for some reason and they just said, hey, Jay, come here, come in here. And we need to talk. And they took me into one of the side offices that weren't, wasn't very well used. And I guess that's where they had been operating out of when they did their analysis and stuff. And I sat down and they mentioned the, that they wanted to bring me on board a special access program and if I had any problems with taking a polygraph and all these other things. And I was like, I got nothing to hide. I'll take a polygraph. But they don't say words like alien or NHI or anything like that. They're just saying it's going to be some top secret shit.

Yeah. So they have you take a polygraph? Yeah. Was it just a normal polygraph? No, this is full life. You have two types a polygraph? Yeah. Was it just a normal polygraph? No, this is full life. You have two types of polygraphs. You got counterintel, which is a lesser of the two. Then you have full scope.

Full scope is everything. They dig up everything. You're talking about your childhood. What did your third cousin remove do? That kind of stuff. Did they know a lot about your childhood some of the things you dealt with yeah but then they you know the topic for the the questions was just mainly you know about being a trustworthy person you know and they're bringing up a touchy

subject that they know you probably would be shocked to hear from them just to see how you respond and see if you're lying and i went went through that with flying colors, I guess. And I was also there with the officer, the scientist of our team. He was onboarding the same time I was into the program. So we both took our polygraph the same day. Was it literally called the program at the time? No. I can't say.

They gave me the project name after I had my polygraph, and it came back without any problems. Then they took me and, well, they called me up. I think it was on a Friday, you know, it was a Friday. And they just said, have your bags packed. We're leaving tomorrow. And I said, okay, where? And they said, we're not going to tell you.

Just meet us. We're going to come pick you up over the dormitory. We're going to go. I said, okay. Because both of them were are the two that went with me that day. No, the three of them, two of them were married and one of them was still single. The guy that was single, I actually hung out most with, and he and I actually had a lot of commonality with a lot of our hobbies and stuff. And, uh, anyway, so they came and picked me up the next day. We went to McCarran airport and there's this weird place where they take you and there's unmarked aircraft. Yeah.

It's like this little hangar at it. It's just like you drive off of a certain road over there and you go in the gate, you got to have your credentials and you got to show your ID card and you have to be on the list. Otherwise you get turned around and told to bug off. So we go there and I get in the line. In the line for what? For getting on the craft. Oh, get on the airplane. Yeah, because there's all the other people that are going.

Okay, you're getting on the airplane. We're getting on an airplane. Was there a line that said you had to be this tall? Okay, no, no, there wasn't nothing like that. Um, um, but no, uh,

you got to take two shots and a beer. No, that's kidding. I'm just kidding. But anyway, no, you go through, you go through the line and you get to the point where, um,

I'm, I'm going in the line with the rest of the guys. And the other guys are just like, okay, you watch how people respond when you get on board the aircraft and when they deplane and i was like why i said you'll find this kind of interesting and i was like okay you know because i've been on i'm like i've been on planes before i don't get it you know so anyway but what they're alluding to is like when everybody got on it

was very civilized it was like everybody knew where they were going to sit yeah and then when they left the same thing happened. Nobody was jostling around, elbowing you to get in the line and grabbing their bags. Everybody was just very civilized. So anyway, that's the first day I went up to Groom Lake with them. And I had to go sit through my read-in video. Read-in video? Yeah.

There's, it's a training video to tell you, welcome to this program. We handle aliens here. No, they don't go that far, but they say stuff like, you must maintain your blah, blah, blah. And all of a sudden, here's the things that you're going to be doing. And then after the whole brief, and then they release you to your workspaces. Some of them were scientists and they went to the lab. There were some people that were leadership and they'd go to their office. You know, they had all these different places they could go. And, um, I was taken to the commander's headquarters in the building there.

And the guys, we all went up there, we all greeted the commander. And then, uh, the commander said, okay, you know, how about a base tour for you, Jay? And I was like, oh, that's so cool. And, uh. You still have no idea what. Well, I knew where I was. I knew I was in dreamland and I knew I'd been onboarded into this program. Okay. And I, now I knew what the, cause the first thing in the video is it tells you what the

program name is. And is it a dead giveaway kind of thing? No. No. It's something that is hard to figure out okay so you don't know you know where you are so you're like i heard there's some weird shit here but you don't necessarily know if like that's going to prove to be urban legend or if you're doing some deep military black ops type stuff right so um anyway so i'm up there with the commander and he asked the other guys to go have lunch or whatever. And he says, you're coming with me.

We're going to do the base, uh, tour. You know, he's showed me all around the whole base. So told me this hangar is that, that Raider does this. There's the weather station and all that stuff. Uh, he, and there's the burn pit. Don't go near that. You know? And I was like, okay.

So, uh, there's all these really, uh, and I was like, where's the UFOs? And he just looks at me. You want to go to the weather station? And I'm like, I would want to go there. And he just laughs at me. And he says, just right over there. You want to, you want me to take you there? And I'm like, why would you have a weather station out here?

And he's like, well, do you want to go sit? And I'm like, I was stupid. And I said, no. Why did you say no? Because I was like, no, I want to see the UFOs. I was like, show me the UFOs. You weren't reading the room. I wasn't reading him right because I'm like that.

I'm stupid to a certain extent. I don't pick up on clues that other people get in context. But he was alluding to the fact that after I had said, can you show me the UFOs? He was alluding to they're over there by the weather station. Okay, let's go see that. And then he just laughed at me when I didn't get it enough.

And he was like, golly, this guy's a fricking idiot, you know? But anyway, so, uh, we all,

what year was this? Roughly 91. Okay. And then, so stay with the mic James. Oh, sorry. I was asking what year this is.

Was this around this time or was it after that or before that? This was probably 92. Oh, I know him. Yeah, show the picture. Show the picture of the camera. This was probably 92, 93. 92 or 93. Okay, so this is of a year or two.

You're talking about a year or two prior to that photograph being taken. Correct. Okay. Just wanted to get an idea because I wasn't sure. So we're basically right after Desert Storm right now in your story. So you've only been in Nevada for two or three months or something. About six months. And you get called into this.

So this is maybe like 93 and we're in perhaps like 92-ish right now. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it's 92 or 93 that's when I put on staff sergeant that's four stripes on your arm so I think that's what I have four stripes or three you can't tell you you don't have your class I'll get my glasses on here hold on it looks like three but it could be four one two three three Three stripes. Had you heard anything?

Okay, that was a Buck Sargent, and that must have been 91. Okay. Just as a quick aside, real quick, had you heard anything related to the Bob Lazar story at that time? Negative, no. Nobody was mentioning that at the time. No one was talking about that. I had heard about him in the news, but he was not my concern. Interesting.

Okay. Yeah. Got it. the news but uh he was not my concern interesting okay yeah got it so you're you refuse to go to the weather station but you're in dreamland and you're thinking where are the ufos when when was the first time where you were somewhere in dreamland there where you were in a room or in a place or in a moment where you realized you were going to be read in on some things that maybe are not of this earth? That came pretty soon after my base tour, because the guys that I was going to be working with, the other analysts like myself, who are all about the same rank, they took me over to what they call the cantina on the base. And it's old as sin, probably World War I, World War II kind of building. But it's just a place where you can go cook hot dogs and hamburgers and drink beer and do whatever.

It's just a cantina. And it was the stupidest freaking thing I ever seen them do to me. But they gave me a piece of paper that had the full list of, you know, what it looked like was going to be my job. And there was stuff in there talking about UFOs and all kinds of weird stuff that I was going to be exposed to. But they only let me read it for less than a minute. In other words, I could not possibly read every word.

But you can see keywords and you're like, what the fuck? Yeah, because as an Intel guy, you have to learn how to scan things pretty quickly. So I did do this cursory scan. So I was picking up on, oh, wow, this is UFOs. This is about exotic materials. This is about scientists working on stuff, you know, and reverse engineering, blah, blah, blah. All these things were hitting me. And then I started trying to read through there.

It was the dumbest thing. They came barreling in and they're trying to grab the paper. And I knew I hadn't finished it. And then I started trying to read through there. It was the dumbest thing. They came barreling in and they're trying to grab the paper. And I knew I hadn't finished it. And they're trying to grab it. And they're chasing me around the cantina with me holding this piece of paper. And then finally they grabbed it from me and they tore it away before I could finish reading the whole thing. So that was kind of goofy.

And they said, that's it. We only got a few minutes. We only got a little bit of time to read it ourselves. But that has to pique your imagination like crazy. Yeah, they just said, we just did that just to show you that, you know, you've got some serious stuff that you're going to have to learn. So I was like, okay. You know, and off I went. And then we went back.

We flew back that afternoon, back to Nellis. And I went back to my dormitory. And then the next thing I knew, they called me on another Friday and we were going out for my first mission. Did they tell you anything about what the mission would be? No. You just get a call that Friday, have your bags packed. We'll tell you on the way. All right. Now, how many guys did you go on this mission with? It was always the same three guys, sometimes, and an OSI team.

Okay. So these are guys you work with closely and that you're tight with. They're the only people involved. Yeah. Out of 200 people in my career field, there's only four guys doing the job. Okay. Where did they take you? They took me to Eglin for the first mission. And what did you have to do when you got there?

We were told by the trusted agents for that organization because we were doing the telecommunications monitoring. Usually the only people that even knew we were on the base was the commander and maybe one other staffer. Why is that? That's because they wanted people talking like they normally do every day. Oh, that's right. So that we get an honest assessment for them. Because if everybody knows and I announce it, what's the first thing you're going to do that you know the inspection team's coming?

Big brother's listening. Go home. Take time off. Don't talk. That's what happens. So yeah, you get all that. But anyway, that's why we did it that way. So every mission was like that.

Sometimes the commander would say, this is my mission. This is what I want you to focus on. Other times they'd be like, I don't want you to know anything. I want you to attack this as if you knew nothing, like a Russian or a Chinese person would. You break it down as they would. And you've used this term, I believe it's red team, right? Yes.

So you've used that throughout the day. I haven't cut you off with that. That's the new term. But now we're here. Yeah. But now we're here. So essentially the way I understand this is that you guys are operating in a way that you're trying to be counterintelligence to figure out like, okay, if we were, say, China, how would we get into X system or something like that? Is that fair to say? Yeah. It's kind of – well, yes.

That's how we would attack it. That's why you call it a red team. Red means enemy when you talk about the Air Force. Because a blue force is friendly forces. A red force is an enemy force. So red teaming just means that you're part of the team, but you're going to attack it from the enemy's viewpoint with that type of discipline so that when we reported on it, it would be as if, you know, this is the real no kidding Monty on what we can pick up without knowing

anything coming into this. And sometimes that's the way we would roll it. Would you do that looking for vulnerabilities? Yes. Yeah. Looking for any vulnerabilities. And then we have the OSI team members there as well. And they would be trying to, you know, backdoor in into SCIF areas and get into people's offices. And sometimes they'd be able to break in and then we get a phone call that I could pick up and they

say, Hey Jay, it's me. I got in, you know, and they clicked the phone. Yeah. And I'd be like, Hey, they got in. And so that was part of the whole thing. So the OSI team would be doing that kind of stuff where they'd be doing like the physical security. Sometimes we would help the OSI agents though because we would show up at like going away parties.

Like if I was listening to the phones for the week, we knew somebody's going away party was going to happen. Well, we would just show up and invite ourselves. So we would try to see if we get any intel off of them. And the OSI team would come along with us and do that. Or we'd do things like dumpster diving. Dumpster diving? Yeah, because a lot of papers, you know, people throw things in the trash. You're supposed to use a shredder for classified documents and everything and stuff that's sensitive or could be sensitive.

And people are awful about what goes in their trash bin. Yeah. So, dumpster diving is a big way people learn intel is that you go in there, you pull out the trash bags. Yeah, you're literally talking about dumpster diving. You actually had it. We had agents waiting to see this particular office throwing away their trash. Yeah. And they were like, okay.

And then they immediately, as soon as they got the green light, they'd be going through there grabbing trash bags out. And that's how we did our work. So this first mission that you and the other three guys go on, where did you say? Eglin. Eglin Air Force Base, yeah. Okay. That's down in Florida.

All right. Maybe I was misunderstanding this, but is this, on this mission, do you run into something where you think it's like NHI? It was a weird one. Let me put it that way. It was on a part of the base that you don't normally go to. Um, it had strange things on the rooftops of,

of the buildings there. I don't know what purpose they served. And, um, I honestly don't remember part of the mission there. I remember going into the mission there. I remember going into the lobby to meet our points of contact and sometime or another, I don't remember anything else except leaving. That's it. So you don't remember the work you did? I don't remember what we did there.

Okay. But these missions would now start happening. Yep. Periodically. How often would you say on average? Three or four a year. Okay. But these missions would now start happening. Yep. Periodically. Yep. How often would you say on average? Three or four a year. Okay. Different locations.

And what length of time average each one? Always two weeks. Always two weeks. Always. Yep. We'd have the first week and then you'd have a little space of two days for the weekend and you could do whatever you like.

And then the second week you do the hot wash on that last Friday and you just do the hot wash it was just a down and dirty of our findings with the staff that was allowed to come into that briefing and most of what you're doing ends up involving more of the traditional things which is counter intel involving things that could be other countries but in the middle of this you mentioned this part so you don't remember at least that first mission and then there's some things that are just weird yes but you're not at meaning in your mind you're not at a point yet where i'm like where you're thinking all right this is really like a ufo job like i'm looking for alien type stuff that happened right pat most of the time that happened what yeah right

patterson right patterson air force base okay but meaning like that's a separate thing to you you're like i know they do that there but you you know, whatever we're doing here, even though we're at Dreamland, you know, this is more normal stuff. Yes. That's how you're thinking of it. Yeah. All right. When did that change? What mission?

It was my first Wright-Patt mission, I would say. That's when I really started to think. Oh, you did a Wright-Patt mission. Yeah. Because we did Eglin and then I think we did a Wright-P pat mission and then we went back to Eglin again. And, you know, it's all jumbled up and I can't remember all of the different ones, but I think that first year that's the way it went. Eglin, right pat, back to Eglin. And then after that, I'm not too sure.

And what happened at this right pat one you're referring to, though, where things change? That's where we were talking earlier about this really strange stuff, like up my gist sheet and say what the hell is this yeah okay you know and that's and the other guys would come up and they put the the headphones on and they'd make me replay the recording a number of times until and they were all were just in shock just like i was and i'm like what the hell is this and sometimes the the lead analyst would go across the street and he wouldn't come back for hours and he was probably talking to the leadership and saying, this is what we intercepted. And I remember one in one time in particular where they actually stopped monitoring one of the lines and turned it over to the lead analyst. And he was the only one allowed to listen in. And you're not able, even though your wife's in the military and everything,

like this is all top secret, so you can't go home and talk about this with anyone. I never talked to my wife about it. You just totally have to compartmentalize it. Yeah, I actually, because what I was doing was my normal job, which every other one in six was doing, was doing the red flag exercises and all the telecommunication monitoring that was elsewhere around the continental U.S. that were not in this particular program. Right. But I also had to do like this additional work, uh, for the program.

Okay. So I was doing all my normal stuff. So I looked like a normal guy to everybody else and even my wife. And there was this part of me that I would just leave on a mission and I would just tell my wife, Hey, I gotta to go on a telecommunications mission. And then she would just say, oh, another one of those. And, um, but she wouldn't know that was part of the program. Now we've been hinting at all day, the 94 Nullus incident, which is where it was, where there was like a drone, like.

A leak of a UFO encounter. Okay. Yeah. Where were you when this happened? How did you find out about this? I was out of the program at that point. I think I left the program earlier that year. And then this incident happened where the first indication I had that something strange had happened the week before I was going up range to do the red flag exercises.

The other guys, the other team that was coming back home, some of them had seen something and they're like, I don't know what it was. You know, they did have, they had no idea what this thing was. And some of them didn't want to talk about it either. And so I was like really curious, but anyway, I was out of the program already. So I had nothing to do with my program time or tenure in that. This was just us driving up range for the next week on the following Monday.

Because that Friday, everybody else came in and they were like, yeah, we saw something. And then that following Friday or following Monday, you know, uh, I went up range. And is this when you had the encounter? Yes. And that's when I had the encounter. And so you're not in the program now. You're doing other things. Yes. I'm just doing my normal job now. Okay. So take me to this day. What, what, what goes down? You said you're going uprange. It's sunlight's out, right? It's not at night. Yeah. Our normal day uprange would be,

there was two pushes. Pushes means two, two times during the day when the aircraft would fly and do all their dogfighting, and then they go back. So there was the AM push, which took place in the morning, and the PM push that took place at night, or in the afternoon. So we were going up to do our, for the AM push that morning. So we all get in the vehicles, which were Chevy Blazers camouflaged, and we drove up. And we didn't get six-pack trucks for a while. You know, the King Cabs, they exchanged all this. But anyway, they're Chevy Blazers. And we went uprange into, we took off from the Burrow Inn, which is where we were staying.

And we went up north and west from that location how far do you think it's only about it takes you about 45 minutes or to an hour to get to black mountain and it's just open desert you're just driving yeah it's all dirt roads yeah you know horrible driving no traffic yeah no traffic um yeah there's some of the roads couldn't even handle more than one car yeah um but anyway so we're just traveling up for the day. Was this four of you? Meaning, like, is it the regular three guys you had referred to earlier, or now that you're out of the program, it's a different kind of cadence,

and there's all different kinds of people? All different kinds of people. Okay. And there's about – How many cars? About three, three to four. I can't remember. Sometimes it was four, sometimes it was three, depending.

How many people per car, roughly? My car had four. Other cars had two. Another one had three, that kind of thing. Okay. Just however we split it up. You know, you just, you like talking. You get in the car.

Yeah, you get in the car and you like hanging out with certain people. And some people are like, I got a shotgun, you know. As dumb as that sounds, that's what you do. I believe it. So you just get in there and you just take off. So, um, we were just traveling up from the hotel and, um, this, uh, this guy who was there from the week before that had seen the UFO, he's the ranking individual this time around.

And he says, we got to stop off at the Contalman area. The Contalman area is just this, uh, fenced in area where you could go and you could repair your tires, gas up, uh, whatever. But at the other end of this Contalman area, there's these two little huts that look like campers and off to the right hand side. I'd never been to it to, to on any other occasion, but the video operators for the range are in there. And so he said, we got to go in here. The video operator wants to talk to us. So we, everybody got out of the vehicles, all three or four vehicles full of us all

went in and the video operator, uh, pulls out a piece of paper and says, I'll everybody sign your name. Tell me whether you're here last week or not. And if you saw what I'm about ready to show you. And he plays back the video. Ends up being the same exact video that you see out there on the internet that got leaked to the news of a UFO on the Nellis test range in 1994. September, October, November, what was roughly?

It was definitely freaking cold that day. I mean, you're talking the type of cold where I'm wearing a field jacket, it's liner and everything else. And this wind is biting right through it. It's that cold. And you're talking desert, you know, early morning, you know. And it gets cold in the desert, colder than some other places. So anyway, we're in the hut and the guy shows us the video and I'm like, what the heck

is that thing? You know, and, uh, some of the other people are, are looking at it and other people looking at it going, oh boy, that's what I saw. Oh boy. You know, yeah, that's it. So we're all writing our name on the piece of paper and then he says, thank you.

There's two individuals on the other far wall and one of them is a lady. And as I'm exiting the door, she grabs me by the shoulder and she says, there's, there's somebody on the range. Don't talk to him. You know? And I'm like, thank you, strange lady.

Um, I'll see you later. You know, what was her, do you know? She looked like she was just part of the, you know, cause there's people, there's maintainers for all these videos, uh, the cameras and the other equipment that's out there because we simulate both the ground to air missiles. There's people that have to take care of that, that piece of equipment. There's people that have to take care of the video cameras, like I said, in all the different places they are. They were probably just people that were hired to maintain things.

Some of them are mechanics so that, yeah, if you have a breakdown with your car, some of them can fix your car for you. All those things. When you say there's videos on the range, you mean there's cameras strewn about in various locations? Yes. And they're controlled by somebody who's in that hut?

Right. Well, there's several huts, I believe. Are they triggered when there's motion in the air? Yes. Okay, so if there's something in the air, these things will pick up on it and start recording. Yeah, because there's safety of flight. If there's an accident, a mid-air collision or something,

they want the video to figure out if they could have done something to prevent it. Okay, so it's got videos all across Nellis test range. Yeah. Okay. James, real quick, just before we go on, I know we're facing everything. Oh, shoot.

You face a little bit. I'm so sorry. No, no, no. Still face Jason. I haven't wanted to bother you with it, but kind of have it angled like that. It makes the camera easier. So when you say cameras,

you mean there are sensors throughout the Nellis test range that get triggered when there's something. Yeah, they're equipped with radar, a type of radar. Excuse me. Here's some water. Yeah, you've been talking a lot. We've got to clear that throat a little bit. We've got the important stuff coming up right now.

Yeah. Thanks. Anyway, yeah, that feels better. Anyway, so, yes, the cameras can rotate, you know. They can be controlled remotely. And they document things on the. Right. And they're also connected with the little radar that's nearby. So if it does lock in or on a craft, this radar kind of locks the camera and it follows it.

Okay. Got it. Okay. Got it. All right. So you go into this little hut and you're shown the video from a couple days prior of an unknown object, a UAP, a UFO, that everyone's talking about. Yeah. And they want a list of people that have been there who'd witnessed it from a couple days prior. You were not one of them. No, I was not there the first week. Is this hut this hut souped out like is there some strange elevators that go down like fucking 40 layers or something not this one no okay oh not this one

no but there are other ones there's one in the tonopah range that you'd be interested to hear about they got will smith and tommy lee down there i't know. That's not a no. No, not that I know of. If they were down there, they're in big trouble. But anyway, no. But no, this one was just a hut for these guys to operate out of. And that's pretty much what they did. But this was a very unique craft that they couldn't explain coming onto the range. It shouldn't have been there.

However, the following Monday, because this had happened on that Friday and we were allowed to come up on Monday, it's obvious somebody did not report it properly because they usually shut down the whole range. Got it. So this did not happen. The lady comes up to you at some point and says there's something. There's somebody on the range. Don't talk to them. And she looked like white as a sheet.

Like she was really upset. So you're like, I'm going to go talk to them. No, I didn't even. I just thought she was weird. And I didn't even expect to run into anybody because I was like, thanks. You know, I didn't know what to tell her. I'm just like, okay. You know, whatever you say.

Got it. You know, at that point, you know, cause I was just like. So you go back up there and you jump in the trucks. We jump in the trucks, we start taking off and we start headed towards Quartz Mountain from the Contoman area because there's a sharp right-hand turn that goes towards Quartz Mountain. And you got to travel about a mile or so from that Contoman area. And then you take another left and you keep on heading gradually up through the dirt roads to get to Black Mountain. Real quick, Alessi, can you just pull up on the map Quartz Mountain just so people can see this real quick so they have a little lay of the land of exactly where it is? Obviously, we've been saying Nevada this whole time, but we've been jumping around places.

Do you have an Ellis Test Range map that you can pull up? Yeah, let's try that. I just want to lay the land for a sec. Oh, that looks like the gateway you'd come through. Which one? Oh, that's the one that Harry – oh, okay. I didn't realize. Right there?

Is that the one you're looking for, Jason? No, that's not it. It'll look just like a flat map like that on the right. Okay. Nevada test range. There you go. Right there? So, yeah, go to the one on the right. Okay. Nevada test range. There you go. Right there? So, yeah, go to the one on the far left up there.

If that one doesn't have enough fidelity, I'll make it bigger. There we go. Okay, there we go. There we go. Okay, this is perfect. It says, no, it's air money. Holy shit, that's big. Yeah.

It is. It's almost the exact same size as the state. I mean, there's very little air area. Yeah. So anyway, let's see. God, there's not a lot going on out there, huh? Yeah. Yeah.

So you see Las Vegas in the bottom left there. So we had to travel about. Oh, yeah. Or bottom right, yeah. And then you go up and you see Beatty is right there, right at the, kind of on the left third. It should go down. It's about center.

There's Beatty. That's where we would start from. Okay. Okay. I don't see Beatty's baby oh you want to go point yeah i was just gonna say getting the real deal here all right camera 4ls right there okay okay oh point to that one more time jay just so people can see it okay all. All right, yeah, now camera 5 will answer. Perfect. So you start at Beatty. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's perfect. You start at Beatty and you're driving up towards

Quartz Mountain, which is where? Where's Quartz Mountain? So you go up this way and then you get onto the range. There's gold. He's pointing to the west side by California's border. And then you would turn in to get up to the Black Mountain.

And now he's moving right towards, maybe that's Colorado? I don't know. It's in this area right here. Is it? Okay. This is for people listening, not watching. Obviously, if you're watching, you can see where he's pointing. Yeah, so it's about right here.

I need a map that has more fidelity. Okay, yeah, yeah. But that's good enough. We have the idea. Yeah. That's perfect. Okay. All right, thanks, Alessi.

Yeah. All right, so you Alessi. Yeah. All right. So you go – where were we? You go up and now – is this where you actually have the – Yeah. And it's on the way to Quartz Mountain that I have the encounter. And what happened? Well –

Play by play. I am sitting there in the vehicle. I've got the driver. He's the ranking individual. We're in the lead vehicle. And I'm sitting right in the vehicle. I've got the driver. He's the ranking individual. We're in the lead vehicle. And I'm sitting right behind the driver. You're in the back seat. I'm in the back seat.

Okay. Is it a four-door truck? It's a four-door truck. Okay. They didn't give you a shotgun? Come on. No, they didn't give me a shotgun. I did not.

I didn't yell it soon enough. The other guy got it. He got shot. Nose goes. Yes. So I sucked that it. He got shot. Nose goes. Yes. So I sucked that day. So, yeah. And then the guy in the front right in the passenger side,

and then there's another person to my right, a young lady to my right. So, anyway, we're just traveling as we normally do. With at least two cars behind you. Well, at least two other cars behind us in the convoy. And we always convoy just in case somebody does break an axle or whatever, and we can pick them up. Anyway, so there's this guy in our uniform. Looks like he's coming down the left-hand shoulder of the road. How far away?

We noticed him when he was about a football field away. Okay. And he's kind of like standing there, and then then he saw us and he started like running towards us. And he had this funny look to his running. It was like he was falling forward all the time or like he was running against a really strong wind. Is he, is he from far away though, as you're first seeing him, is he running in a way that would suggest oh this seems like a human yes somewhat yeah he looked about human size and everything else yeah everything he just looked like he had a uniform on like mine and uh he was just running towards us and as we

approach uh that's when i noticed his skin had this blue tint to it like he was hypothermic that's what i thought my immediate thought was that he was hypothermic hypothermic and he needed help so it's like it's white skin but it's turned like almost the blood's rushing it's not like a dark ocean blue or something oh no it's definitely not like dark navy blue or anything no this is just like your eye we're cold cold as all get out and we're starting to freeze that's what it looked like to me that that level of blue was like holy crap you know that was the level of blue it wasn't because he was like dark blue or anything it was just this undertone of blue so anyway um we get closer and closer and he's only a few feet away from the car and we're slowing down and the guy in the

front seat just that's where i mentioned in the the film with you that that's when he screams out that he's got no ears uh the guy in the front seat and i'm like uh the guy in the front seat that's sitting next to the driver yeah the passenger side guy in the front seat says he's got no ears and i'm thinking how rude you know this guy's probably fighting for his life here hypothermic and you're talking about his ears you know so i'm popping open the door i'm trying to take my jacket off at the same time because I'm thinking I got to wrap him in something because he's hypothermic. And that's when I step out onto the roadway and I'm shutting the door. And that's when I look up at him and I'm realizing he has no

ears and his eyes are twice as big than normal. And he does indeed have this blue tint. And that's when I felt like really scared because I was like, oh crap, what did I walk into here? How close is he to you now? He's only like three feet. Oh, he's right in front of you. It's like, you know, me and James apart. Is he looking you in the eyes?

Not immediately. He kind of, as I'm shutting the door and he realizes that I'm about ready to engage with him, he was, he was like looking at the driver. I don't know what he was thinking about doing, but maybe he was going to hail him or knock on the window. I don't know. Are you looking to see if he's armed? No.

No. No. I'm just more concerned for his health. Okay. At that point. Because if he's on the range, you know, I'm thinking he's in a uniform. You know, there were no red flags for me to sit there and think like, oh, this is the criminal or this is some fugitive that's on the run, you know, or stuff like that. This guy just looked like a dude in a BDU uniform or battle dress uniform like I had.

So anyway, but now I'm looking at him straight on. I'm like, holy crap, this dude does not look human. And I'm starting to get really scared. But then he talks to me, and that calms me down because I had to respond. And he's wanting to fix and repair his craft, and he's asking for that material that didn't tell him. What did his voice sound like? It was not English at all.

He did have an auditory. He spoke, but it sounded more like Norwegian or something like that. So you couldn't understand what he spoke, but you could understand what he was saying because there was something telepathic going on. Right. I could understand what he was saying regardless of what he was actually saying. What was he saying?

He was saying, you know, my craft is damaged. I need some material to repair it. Do you have any tantalum? of what he was actually saying. What was he saying? He was saying, you know, my craft is damaged. I need some material to repair it. Do you have any tantalum? And I was like, is that titanium? He's like, no. And so I was like, well, you know, pointed over to the dreamland, you know,

Groom Lake, and I said those people might have some high-tech metals and things like that. And this wave of emotion hits me like disgust like i'm not asking people like you know barbarians for that from him he's yeah he's he's saying this and i'm getting that telepathic emotion of his being disgusted about me even mentioning it are you at all looking at the guys at any point here who are with you yeah i i tended to look over a couple of times and what are they doing they look like they were just zonked like zombies like i almost laughed really they looked that they looked comical like you know just totally literally like the men in black movie

where people are stunned yeah they're just yeah you know it's just kind of like they're just zoned out yeah that's what they look like so um anyway i look at them a couple of times and he keeps talking to me was the driver did the driver have the window down or the window up sorry it was does the driver i think at one point he did start rolling his window down but when he saw my door was opening up he i think he rolled it back up because it was freaking cold. And he probably wanted to, you know, stop the cold air from coming in. So I think maybe the window was down partially, maybe. Yeah.

He could have, but I don't really remember, to tell you the truth. Are you, now you're reacting to what's happening right here and you're having this communication. So there's like a lot of senses going on here. Right first of all how long is this full encounter with him we're gonna get not very long but couldn't have been more than five minutes okay is there a point in there where you are like holy shit his constant talking to me. And yeah, I got the distinct impression that I was like in a holy crap situation. So yeah, I felt definitely that there was definitely that this person was not human. I've never been talked to by James or you or you telepathically like that.

And if you have another language as your first language and still understanding you, I've never been talked to by James or you or you telepathically like that. And if you have another language as your first language and still understanding you, I've never had that happen before or since. So how does it end? You talk for five minutes. What happens? He ends up going back to his craft. He gets into it. And as he's traveling above the roadway and travels off in the south to southeast range of the range. And it's kind of towards Vegas, actually.

And he just takes off. And then everybody in the car finally is coming to. And they don't have that zonked out look anymore. What does the craft look like, by the way? You did share it in the program documentary. Yes. Link in the description below. Go check it out.

Great documentary chance. But what does it look like by the way you you did share it in the program documentary link in description below go check it out great documentary chance but what does it look like it's kind of got a bulbous cockpit and it's got like a little pad or foot footprint thing that comes off of it that how big um it can hold like two people like a cockpit of a fighter jet had you ever seen anything like it before never i i mean i you're talking to a guy along with the other people in the convoys that were there the week before. You literally, when you do the red flag exercises, you see all these craft, not just your own in our inventory, in the American inventory, but we are actually helping our allies to train also with us. So we literally knew what the bombers, the fighters, the aircraft, every type of aircraft, we already knew what they looked like. And this fit none of it.

And that's exactly the feeling I had because it had a bulb, like an egg shaped cockpit that was about the same size as a normal fighter jet cockpit would look like. It has this red or not red, but black pancake egg that's flat. It's about a foot or foot and a half wide sticking out the back where the, like if it was a helicopter, it would have been the tail of the helicopter. And then, you know, you see those helicopters that have like a big rounded canopy or whatever where the pilots sit.

Yes. That's kind of what it looked like, but it was all white except for this black pancake. How far, I think you just said this, I might've missed this. How far away was the craft from where you guys were first talking with him? About 50 yards. 50 yards. So you, when you're talking with him, did you notice the craft in the background? Like, were you looking at that at all?

Yeah, because when I was getting out of the car, I definitely looked to my left as well. And that's when I saw it full on. Was the craft parked on the road or in the desert? It was in the desert. It was off the road. Cause as we were traveling, you know, this is the road towards Quartz Mountain. Yeah. The craft was off to the side of the road, off the shoulder of the road in the, in the

desert. Do you think you'd be able to take us back to that exact location? I could point exactly where it was. I could get you probably within about 10 feet. Okay. So he goes back. How, how did the conversation end by the way? Like what was the last thing?

He just, well, when I mentioned, uh, talking to those people and he got disgusted, it, it ended pretty quick after that. But, uh, I just said. He's like, I'm getting the fuck out of here. Yeah. Well, he just said, no, that's not going to work. And I said, well, the only other people I could

think of is I go to college down in downtown Vegas because I was going to the community college. And I was like, I knew a geophysical professor. And I'm like, maybe he's got a metal or just specialist friend of his. And I was like, maybe they have a professor down there. And he's like, okay. And were you speaking English to him? Yeah, I had to speak English. So you weren't thinking things.

You were speaking. I was speaking, yeah. But he understood. He understood. But he's speaking back to you telepathically. Yes. But was his mouth moving like gibberish coming out of his mouth? Because he's speaking like Norwegian.

Yeah. It's kind of like if I could talk to you and I could say something like in in spanish you know like uh the point of coming our mess but a duolingo in my head is giving me english yeah and but at the same time i'm saying it in spanish yeah you're understanding everything i said that yeah okay so he goes back to the crap now the craft had a problem with it he said he needed some shit but he takes off in it yeah when it takes off does it make any. When it takes off, does it make any noise? Yeah, kind of like a strange sort of a, I don't know how to put it. What could I equate it to? It's kind of like, you ever hear your fan belt squeaking in your car?

Yes, yes. Like, it's kind of like that yeah okay so any any wings any propeller blade zero so it just moves up straight yeah it kind of takes off like this and then as he he starts traveling horizontally he's going up in like stair steps because he had a he had an issue with the craft right and i think it was just when he was doing vertical, gaining altitude or losing altitude, that's the part that was broken. And then at some point he disappears from view. Right. Yeah, he just takes off and goes out of view.

All right. Now you're now no longer zonked guys are standing there, right? Well, they're all in the car. Nobody else got out of their cars. But you were saying when they had the zonk look, they're in the car. They're in the car and as the guy is traveling back and I'm getting back in the car they all come to

and then everybody seems to be normal and does anyone say what the fuck was that no it's just about to ask that question no nobody was talking about it and I'm like did you guys see that and they're like no? And they're like, no. Yeah, and they're like, no.

And I'm like, okay, well, let's just get to work. All right, wait a second. Was it a no, like, no, because whatever the fuck we just saw, we can never talk about because that shit's crazy? One guy, the ranking guy, I think he saw it. I know he saw some of it because he was the only one that flat out said no and don't talk about it. I know he saw some of it because he was the only one that flat out said, no, and don't talk about it. So you think that they, maybe I'm putting words in your mouth right here, you think that at least some of them may have had some lost time on this? Yes. And for people out there, can

you explain what lost time is? That's just a portion of time where you either go, you're either physically hit in the head and you can't remember, or some other means, like you've heard here from abduction scenarios from other people where somehow these creatures are able to, you know, turn you off for that amount of time. And then I've heard from other people that there's actually maybe even a time space kind of a phenomenon that's encountered with other craft where their radios turn off and all the electrics in their car turn off and then they get you know they have missing time but at the same time they feel like uh nothing happened you said something

really interesting in the program which i loved i mean just, it really resonated with me that when you made eye contact with this, this thing, this being critter person, whatever, that you almost had this snake bite. Like, what was that? What were that?

That was the very first part of the conversation because that was when I shut the door and I looked up and I was like, and you got eyes with him. Right. And you, and I locked eyes and it was the strangest fricking set of eyes I'd ever seen. It was like a crocodile was fricking looking at me and my, my fear instinct just went spiked. I was like, holy crap.

You know, like a bolt of adrenaline going through. Oh shit. Yeah. I was. Fear. Did you, were you scared? It was, it was definite fear. I was like, holy crap.

This is, this guy's not, he's, he's an definite fear i was like holy crap this is this guy's not he's he's an alien i was like you know um so you look like you were looking into a crocodile's eyes yeah it was kind of the same thing you get if you stumble onto a rattlesnake that's what it felt like i mean you just scared to death you're like oh crap you know that's what i felt but you didn't feel threatened in the sense that you don't threaten your well-being was was at stake here was a sentient being that i couldn't explain if you could imagine that kind of a scenario just like you know the first time you're scuba diving and you and you meet a whale for the first time you're like yeah you know that kind of feeling but you know what the whale is yeah

and eventually you calm down and you realize that yeah it's a whale and it's gentle and it doesn't bother you but you never figured out what this thing was no i did not what happened so you get in the car they kind of come to you're like did you just see that some guys are like no what happens next you guys just drive back to where oh yeah well we had to be at black mountain by a certain time to start our equipment up and everything else. So that was the foremost in our mind or everybody else's mind.

I was still reeling from the whole thing that I just experienced. You driving in silence? I'm just like, holy crap, what just happened? You know, kind of just in shock, complete shock. And then we get to Black Mountain, we crank up our gear, start working our job, and we finish out the day and we go back to the hotel. And only the guy, only the ranking guy was the one that I know remembers some of it, at least, because I talked to him later on. What, where?

Like, how did that happen? At lunchtime. I had a very strange compunction. I don't know what the hell. It was cold as heck out there but i wanted to go eat my lunch outside there was like a compelling something that told me go when you got to the place yeah when we got to black mountain yeah so i ate lunch and i walked down and this is where my missing time comes in. I walk down about, you know, 100, 150 feet down the road from the top of Black Mountain, and I don't remember anything.

What do you say, Jason, to skeptics out there that's going to look at you and say this guy's clearly full of doggy doo-doo? Well, if that's the case, then I've passed a number of polygraphs. About this. Well, if that's the case, then I've passed a number of polygraphs. About this? Yeah, and we've had to talk about all kinds of parts of my life. It's never been a problem. They never knew about this incident. I never did that.

So they never asked me a direct question that, you know, did you ever meet an alien? No, they don't talk about that. But you passed polygraphs regarding this incident well i pass polygraphs for my my you know just to say that i've got integrity that i'm an honest person would you take a polygraph from this case yeah i would i would i have no problem with it yeah okay i know what i saw and that's kind of it one of your movie names i knew what i saw yeah um you didn't you didn't go home and like say to your wife, you're not going to believe this shit. There's none of that. You said all that comes to me later.

Everybody else had shunned me, you know, had shunned the whole thing. I thought, well, I'm just, I'm the only guy who wants to talk about this or they don't know what happened. And like I said, the only guy that remembered any part of it was that ranking guy. He was a driver. He was the driver. And you still have his name to this day. Right. He's the guy that ghosted me.

Right. You reached out to him. He responded, hey, good to hear from you. How you doing? You brought up the case and then done. Yeah. I said, remember that day back in 94, that UFO? When is this?

2022. Okay. So this is before you testified to Congress? It's prior. Right. Yeah. It's before, because, uh, uh, some of the people on the UAP task force had asked me to contact those people that were in the car. Okay. So there's, there's, there's a couple, now we got to get into the nitty gritty of like how you come out and everything that goes on there. First of all, to go back for just one second in the course of your career even after this event would apply by the

way whether it be when you were stationed in desert storm doing things or in whatever zones you were had you seen had you been on or near the front lines of combat situations was i yeah no not during my normal job okay were there Were there things during your career, though, besides this event, which for obvious reasons is going to cause a lot of things to think about, but were there other things during your military career that you had some PTSD from, you would say? Definitely. Like what? Just the things that I had to experience in the black program. Some of that stuff ended up being a really bad, dark time during my career.

So that happened. Like the things you would hear, for example, on the calls and stuff like that, like you were talking about earlier? Yeah, just rocks your freaking world, some of that. And also just some of the parts of the program that I found very shocking, very dehumanizing. Can you comment on that? I tried. I'm convinced there's just things that I can't talk about because the public's not ready. I've told this to other people that I've been interviewed with or been interviewing with that I have tried to discuss certain things and I could just tell people are just not ready for the full Monty on what's actually going on in that program. Okay. What, and I started to

ask this earlier, but now that we have more context, I think it'd be better to dig into it now. When you were first read into this program, you had to sign things, right? Yeah. You got to sign. Yeah. When I was in that, that video briefing, I told you about when I got there for the first time. Yeah. You have to sign paperwork, which, you know, the. Yeah, when I was in that video briefing I told you about when I got there for the first time, yeah, you have to sign paperwork. Which, you know, the standard, like, I will not talk about anything that happened in here, whatever, yada, yada. Exactly. So when you come out in 2020 or in 2022, why were you not arrested? Because I was coming in as a whistleblower, and there's certain protections for that.

Under what statute, like, for the ndaa the nda and yeah yeah the ndaa national defense authorization act act yeah there's whistleblower protection that was written by jillibrand rubio schumer rounds okay um it basically protecting whistleblowers but he wasn't releasing this stuff publicly. He was doing it in a skiff. In a skiff. With people with clearances. Right. And it was with Congress, right?

Congress. It was the Senate and the House sides. Both of them had a skiff that they brought me in. So I fell under the NDAA. But besides that, there's like a few ways you can actually come forward with information and be like, you can do it like a concerned citizen, which is the method I went through. And like David Grush was going in under a more official investigative version of coming forward as a whistleblower because he had already filed an ICIG complaint. And then he was pushed through the Congress. So he went in after I did.

Didn't Congress put Grush in charge of investigating what the intelligence agency knew? Yeah, but then they screwed with his clearance and he had to say, hey, they're screwing with me. Oh, they screwed. So he pulled back the curtain, found something, and they started effing with him. Right. And that's when he filed his complaint. Got it. Right.

So this is back, you have your event back in the earlier 90s. As time goes by after that, you continue to build a family, have kids. You continue in your career. We already laid that out earlier. You were in the Air Force until 2007. You were then a private contractor from 2007 onward, I believe, until earlier this year, right? Okay. And you listed off some of the companies you work for and you're read into the government because're contracting for the U S government. So you're working in Intel effectively. So this is

many, many years doing that, but like over time, whether it's right away or onset, whatever, did this chain, like, did this start to have a negative effect on you as a person, as far as like your mental mind state, knowing that like, holy shit, I saw something that probably no one else. It was not eating at me at all. I treated it just like I did with my bad memories of my dad. I just filed it away like I normally would when there was something that I just could not handle. And I just forgot about it as much as I could. What brought it back to the surface was when I was on the UAP Task Force Forum, and they posted the video of the UFO on the range when it's flying past Black Mountain.

And I'm like, I know about that. Wait, so, all right, hold on. I want to make sure I understand this because this is important. You said that brought it back to the surface. So you compartmentalized it and almost mentally assumed it didn't happen, or am I misunderstanding that? It's not that it didn't happen. It's just I didn't want to think about it, and I just assumed that it was best left unspoken. You put it in a dark place deep inside of you.

I just went on with life. And then like a sleeper cell, in a way, it wakes up when you see that video. Yeah. I start, it floods back all of a sudden. I'm like, yeah, I know about this incident. And I actually sat on responding to the report on that particular UFO incident back in 1994 on the Nellis test range. They posted the whole thing. And I thought about it for probably a good month before I responded. And then that's when I typed in there on the top secret network on the UAP forum. And I just said, I've got more to tell you about this. And to be clear, you were explaining this to me earlier before we got on

camera, just so that we can have this all cleared up for everyone. Correct me wherever I'm wrong in this, but there was something called, as you just alluded to a UAP task force that involved Congress. So they're in charge of it. And then within that, there's like a UAP forum, which is the term. And this is, you're able to access it through a portal if you are within any of the intelligence community. Correct. And you can then like go in and watch what's going on or whatever. And if you have something to say that's relevant, you can share it. Correct. So in that scenario, you're not paid or given financial incentive for any of that. So you're not employed by anyone.

You are strictly just participating in what the forum is. You're helping the UAP task force through that forum to help them analyze because there's only a very few people working for the task force itself. Explain SIPR because it's a secret network. SIPR? SIPR. Yeah, it's an acronym. Yeah, that's the secret level. Can you look it network. SIPR? SIPR, yeah. It's an acronym. Yeah, that's the secret level. And then...

Can you look it up? SIPR? It's S-I-P-R or S-I-P-R? I don't know. But it's a network that you have to have clearances to access. You can't do it from the outside. It's something... SIPR.

It's like SIPRnet? Yeah, SIPRnet. That's it. Okay, we got it on Wikipedia. So the Secret Internet Protocol Router Network, SIPRNET. SIPRNET, that's it. Okay, we got it on Wikipedia. So the Secret Internet Protocol Router Network, SIPRNET, is a system of interconnected computer networks used by the U.S. Department of Defense and the U.S. Department of State to transmit classified information up to and including information classified secret

by packet switching over the completely secure environment. It also provides services such as hypertext document access and electronic mail. As such, SIPRNET is the DoD's classified version of the civilian Internet. SIPRnet is the secret component of the Defense Information Systems Network. Other components handle communications with other security needs, such as the NIPRnet, which is used for non-secure communications, and the Joint Worldwide Intelligence Communications System, which is used for top-secret communications. That joint worldwide intelligence communication system which is used for top secret communication jaywix jaywix is the one that where the form was there is a form also on sipper net and there's also some unclassified chat rooms on the nipper net okay that handled some of the uap discussions if you wanted to nip something in the bud, you'd use the nipper net.

Okay. So what, what years are we talking? No, it had to do with females. Oh, nipper. What years are we talking when you first get involved with, let's just keep it high level with the UAP forum? Like when did that first happen? My first encounter with that was probably 2022. I think that's when I discovered the UAP

forum was there. And I was like, oh, you know, I just poked around at it and looked at it and saw that there was. And then this comes back. Yeah. Okay. So how did the process go down with you first getting into the SCIF and, you know testifying to people privately like what how did that happen once i posted my response to the ufo incident on the nullus test range of 1994 i responded back that there's more to this story i had an encounter the following week and then i put in there and then the whole group got to ask me questions. I responded, uh, very much like the same questions you guys are asking me, but I did it on the, on the JWIC, so the top secret forum at that point. Um, however, nothing was classified because this was just my trip up range, you know, for the day I just was driving to work for crying

out loud. It had nothing to do with the program or anything else. It was just, you know, a strange day in my life. So anyway, that all took place. And then I get a call from David Grush and another gentleman that I shouldn't mention his name. But the two of them contacted me. The first thing I got was an email saying, hey, we need to do a high-level talk or questions with you. We just saw your posting, blah, blah, blah. And so-and-so, I work for the UAP task force. So I give them my contact. They call me up later that afternoon, and we start talking about the whole thing. And that's where things started rolling. And then come October, I'm getting a call from the congressional committees.

And they're saying, can you come in and talk to us in November, December timeframe? I'm like, sure, I can do that. So I went and testified. And then David Grush came through. When you say testified, you mean you gave statements in a secure place? What do you mean by testified? Well, testifying to Congress. But not like in a hearing or something.

It was like behind closed doors. Yes. So you went and gave information in a skiff. I did a closed session. Okay. Sorry. I'm just curious. Now, obviously you can't reveal who's in there, but approximately how many people are you able to say that?

Yeah, it was about 10 people on the Senate side and a few more on the House side. Because I had to start off on the Senate side and a little, a few more on the House side. Because I had to start off on the Senate that morning. We did about a three, four hour interview where we got to talk. And you gave the classified date details needed to verify what you were saying. Yeah, everything.

And then they took me over to, you know, the underground train. They took me over to the House side. Did you give names? Yep. Locations? Locations. What was their reaction?

Shock. Was there anyone there really pushing back on you, like, come on? Oh, yeah. There's a few of them that had some really good questions. Just like, well, you said tall whites and grays. Couldn't that be a code name? And I'm like, no, that's not the context of it. All right.

Can you explain that context there? I know you've talked about this before, but we haven't talked about this today. So where did the tall whites and grays come into your? They were in a lab when I was monitoring. And they asked me about that particular event when they were in this lab. And the context of the conversation was that humans were not allowed to come into this lab until after the tall whites and grays were left. Is this after your encounter? This is before

oh it's before yeah it's while i'm in the program so in the program you have a if you're monitoring this a previous encounter yes it's a previous encounter yep is this stuff you heard or stuff you saw i i heard it oh you heard okay i heard it i was monitoring and recording that conversation and like i said you got to understand that this was not a deception plan because it's insane for them to spend the thousands of dollars to have my team and the OSI come out for that two weeks and waste our time. Because we were there for a very specific reason, and that is to keep their security on their program. All right, let me play devil's advocate on that real quick. If it's just hearing it and not seeing it, which is not your fault, you're just hearing it, right? Yep.

By the way, were they speaking English? Yeah. Okay, so it's not like the Norwegian type situation. I am just thinking about how compartments of the government could work with psychological testing and things like that. You have people like you and your coworkers who have been deemed through all kinds of testing to be highly competent, highly skilled, highly ranked, doing serious work, counter Intel, the whole bit. So you check all these boxes. Therefore, meaning you're like the hardest guys to dupe with stuff in a sense. So they may, and this is just a devil's advocate situation

if i'm looking at something that's not like what you talked about earlier where you are actually seeing something and it's just something you're hearing and these terms like nordics and grays and whites or whatever are thrown around could you see a scenario where something like that is a part of you are the rat in the test tube unknowingly that they're that they're trying to figure out like well let's see how he reacts to this i would say there's a very small chance that that could happen okay because to me it doesn't make logic sense that they put me through all the training went and spent all the money on my polygraph and everything else and the background check which ultimately costs like hundreds of thousands of dollars um and then just to do dupe me it doesn't make sense hundred in in all fairness though hundreds of thousands of dollars to the government can you delete that

then i'll give a fuck about that this is saying people waste two trillion without asking yeah without without batting eyes so that part i wouldn't care about as much. But I see what you're saying. It would be a lot. There'd be a lot of lines they cross to do that. Correct. Because usually if they're going to do a deception like that, it's got to go all the way up to the DOD level usually to get approval, to do that kind of a thing. Yep.

And then they have to assign assets that have to fake the phone calls, fake the mission, fake the lab, fake everything, and be able to make it sound good enough for me to bite on it. So you didn't, and to be clear, you didn't see the lab. It's all just audio we're talking about. Yes. Being talked about. Okay. Yeah. All right, fair enough.

So you share this in the SCIF with the 10 congressional representatives? Right. All right. And people are looking at you like you're cray-cray. But some people are also shocked, you said, too, right? Yeah. Meaning like they're not saying like, all right, this is – there's some people who are thinking maybe this isn't all bullshit.

Maybe there's something here. Yes, because I told them that was not the context because if it was a code name it would have used been used different differently syntactically in the conversation the way they were talking about it was that this was a group of entities that are called grays another group of entities that's called tall whites and another group of entities that's called humans and i have listened to many conversations about when they use code words, they don't fit that, the way we come up with code words. In your opinion. They are not military code words by any means.

They don't match any of the ways that we come up with code words. And that just made zero sense to me. And I just told the guy on the committee, no, that's not what I heard. And what was the, just for the full context of it what did you learn about the i don't know working relationship here between i guess like other galactics and i did hear ashtar command honestly i did hear that and i heard what ashtar command i had actually on a sheet of paper, and I looked to the other alliance. That's another one that they came over and they listened to the conversation themselves. Because I said, do we have like a command or a headquarters in India? What is this?

You know? What is Ashtar Command? Have you ever heard of this before? Ashtar Command. Ashtar Command. Yep. I still don't really know what that means but you don't know what i mean okay well i've heard from the uf ufo community

that they believe that the ashtar command is actually a command that's out there in the galaxy or something uh we're getting into speculation yeah that's right yeah let's realize let's not go there yeah we're already in cuckoo, woo-woo here. Right. So anyway. Hit the joint. Let's go. But anyway, so I did hear that one, and that was another one where I was like, I don't know what ASTAR Command is.

Neither did any of the other analysts, so that was another mystery to us. But yeah, those were the kind of conversations that raised my eyebrows. Yeah. Okay. So you come forward in 2022. James, when you had said earlier, you mentioned some of the conversations that happened where Jason came up and it was some sources you trust within government who were telling you about his experiences that I guess they learned through this process. When was that again? For the first time?

When in 2023? Yes, 2023. February? Okay. Probably February 2023. So when you're in DC. When in 2023? Yes, 23. February? Okay. Probably February 23rd. So when you're in D.C. Yeah. That's when you're in D.C.

Yeah, yeah. All right. So when do you two first connect? Well, I'll let him explain. He knows what happened behind the scenes. All I know is I ended up having dinner with him. Yeah, okay. Turn back here.

So I get an email. And you know what? I'm going to keep this individual who introduced us out. Keep this individual's name out just because I don't know if it's. So I get an introductory email for Jay Stratton. It's like, Jay Stratton, James Fox, don't know how much, you know, which one of you has more time in the field. James Fox has been all over the world, as you know.

He makes documentaries. He's been on the inside investigating the UAP task force, yada, yada, yada. I just want to make you guys' connection. I was like, wow, I've heard about Jay Stratton. That's great. I'd love to. And so I responded just with one. No, I responded to both of them.

Hey, really nice to meet you. I've heard a lot about you. I'm in D.C. for a month filming if you'd like to get together for dinner drink whatever and then he responds with just me not including this other individual who made the introduction and he says actually i'm not jay stratton i'm jay sands but i was part of the um uh the program yeah but you you used the word legacy. Legacy program. Yeah, I was part of the legacy program.

I was like, oh, okay. Well, this is kind of funny. So we ended up, I think, I don't know what it was, a night, two nights, three nights later, going out to dinner with this other individual and some other people that are in the UAP field, very credible individuals. Again, I didn't get their permission to mention their names,

but you would have heard of them. We all go to dinner together. Check where Lou was, Alessi. And we all go to dinner together, and that's when he drops this story at Nellis Test Range. And I was like, you've got to be kidding me. Shane's just like. I was like, oh, boy.

This is, wow. You want a beer with that? I don't know, but I'm thinking to myself every time. So essentially, you know, I'm just trying to process as to whether I believed him or it or whatever. And I have to say, okay, James, I've learned from so many decades in this field that don't have that knee-jerk response that you've had with Virginia, Rua, and all these other cases, Sikora. That's impossible. There's no way.

God, this is... No. But, I said, okay, well, I'm going to suspend judgment. I'm going to listen to this, and I'll maybe dig into it a little further. I'll leave it at that. Same with Holloman. I believe that Holloman happened. Never thought I. Leave it at that. Same with Holloman. I believe that Holloman happened. Never thought I'd heard myself say that.

1964 alleged landing at Holloman Air Force Base where contact was made. And there's a whole long story and I don't really want to get into it. We covered that in episode 138. Thank you. So anyway, so we get to know each other a bit. I'm meeting other people that were involved

in the task force and having dinners and drinks and did you get to see whiskey James yeah no I didn't yeah but that's a demon so he was he was good he was getting a little bit harassed you were concerned you were working out at the Pentagon I think at the time the time, and you said your car had been left open. NSA. I was working at NSA. NSA, sorry. Yeah, your car had left open, and you were getting a little paranoid. Yeah. You were just concerned you were on edge.

Yeah. And I said, look, you know, I got a camera crew here. I'm in D.C. If you want, it's all totally up to you. I'm not forcing you to do anything. If you want to get some testimony on camera, just as a security issue, an insurance policy, if you feel like you're in any way threatened or just concerned, put that out as an insurance policy, and at least it's documented on camera. He said, yeah, I think I'll do that. I think you spent a couple of days thinking about it, and you said, screw it.

Yeah, let's do it. So he came, filmed, and I filmed primarily from the back, but I did put one camera on his face just in case. And I always post like on social media updates on my film process

updates, and I posted a production still, and it had a clipboard in it. He was not even in the photograph, or maybe his back of his shoulder was in it. I think, yeah. But it said Jason. There's a clipboard of Jason. So I outed him. Right.

And people zoomed in and then that's when. Hey, there's a Jason. Everybody's attacking him. And then he sat quietly on the sidelines and then eventually engaged. And that's how it all went down. I had to talk to my leadership right after that because people were asking questions and oh i had so many people contacting me what are you doing i was like what are you talking about okay i was like oh my god i'm so sorry so anyway shit storm yeah and i felt terrible because he was he hadn't gone through

the adoption process he was a whistleblower behind the scenes he had no intentions of making his name public and so that was me okay so and I want to, where we go from here, I want to tread respectfully and carefully just to run through where your mind was at stuff. I don't want any of it to be accusatory or whatever. I just want to be able to clear things up so you have a chance to put your testimony in front of people. But after this happens, the program obviously comes out December 2024. So this was long before that. No, the program obviously comes out December 2024. So this is long before that. No, the program came out in December. December 2024. Oh, okay.

So sorry. Yeah, this is way before. So I thought you said September. Right, right, right. Fair. So long before that. In April, you decide after, this is after James tweeted and deleted that picture. So your name's been outed or whatever, you decide to hop on a twitter spaces and tell

part of your story for the first time what was the thought process on because i chuckled a little bit like when i saw oh this guy came out on the twitter spaces like of all the fucking places what was your thought process on doing it there well um i had been listening to what people were saying mainly because i was interested to see how far my name was going to be used. And I was still going through my pre-publication process, which was my last step in legal ability to talk publicly. Um, because I knew inevitably it was, you know, people are going to figure out who I am eventually. So, um,

those kind of played a big factor in my mindset. And then I, I just, I think the week prior to my coming out in April of that year that, uh, I decided I was like, okay, I've got all my ducks in a line. I'm sick and tired of people making up stuff about their imaginary, this imaginary, that about what was going on with me and making up stuff that I'm like, that's totally not right. That's totally not right. I'm sorry to cut you off. What do you mean by all your ducks in a line?

Like just all my legal stuff. I had been, I talked to Congress and got my NDAA whistleblower status. Then I went to arrow and I talked to them, which I also was asked to do. Then I was told I had to also go to the ICIG and file the formal complaint. And then my last step was to get my pre-publication completed. Intelligence Community Inspector General, ICIG.

Okay. Yeah. The head of that was Thomas Monheim, I believe. Yeah. Got it. So essentially, though, in that initial Twitter spaces in April, 2024, you told, you told the story at least in, in a lot of the detail of everything we've covered so far today. That's fair to say, right? Maybe there's a couple of things we got to today that weren't in there, but for the most part, like it's pretty much everything.

They asked me all sorts of stuff. Yeah. I can't even remember all, geez, I didn't even expect to be in. I thought I was just going to come in for a half hour and leave yeah well they did not it was not like six hours or something it was a long time i didn't even realize it but i eventually was like man i'm freaking tired and i'm hungry okay so and then i can say this now because you talked about this publicly actually when you recorded with joe but you had told me this back before you and Joe Rogan talked, I guess, like sometime over the summer and connected Jason with Joe to talk with him.

Right? Kind of, yes. Yes. So you spoke with him and told, did you basically give Joe the same testimony you gave on the Twitter spaces? No, no. It was a very summarized version. So even less.

Joe wanted to get in touch with Grush because because Grush is just testified in open areas. And you know Grush. And he knows Grush. And so I said, he said, can you get me to Grush? And I said, yeah, I got a guy. So I put, I said, is it okay if I get to it? And I connected the two. Boom, they took it from there.

Right, right. So I'm sorry. I had the timeline. So this is way before. Right. So you guys connect. You at least give him like a summarized version of what was going on. Yeah, because he's like, who are you?

How do you know Grush? And, you know, all this stuff. So I just had to tell him a little bit about my background. And then we started talking. He's like, holy shit. Yeah. All right. He called me when I had the drone in the air.

I was flying in England and I was on my way to meet Gary McKinnon. Yeah. And I was getting some B-roll because I saw. James, stay here. Oh, soon. Yeah, and I was getting some B-roll because I saw... James, stay here. Oh, so sorry, yeah. I was getting some B-roll because when I'm traveling, if I see a pretty shot, I usually have my drone with me. And I had a drone that didn't have a built-in camera,

so I had to put my phone in place for the camera. I'm sorry, not the camera, the screen, so I could see what the drone is filming. And since then, I've gotten one with a built-in screen because it's so much quicker, so much easier. But I'm sitting there flying the drone up by a big windmill, and I've got the drone right up where the windmill blades are spinning because I want to get this really dramatic shot.

And my phone's ringing, and I look, and it's Joe Rogan calling me. I'm like, oh, my God, I've got to get this. I've got to stop. Stop. So I answer the phone while my drone's in the air i swear to god and i'm talking to rogan he just got the phone with sand he's like what the fuck who is this guy that's stories crazy i was like i know it's pretty wild you know meanwhile i'm seeing these blades going, just missing my drone. I'm like, you know, it was really funny. You know, I actually told him that, but yeah. And it really happened. That's the way it went down.

Right. So that's how. And that's long before, at that point, that's long before the Twitter spaces because that's when he wanted to get in touch with you. Yeah. That was a long, because he fully wanted to talk to Grush. Okay. Yeah. Now, here's what I want to get at because I think this is important to give you the opportunity to go through like where your head's at and why you're claiming some of the things you are and whatever, and we'll let people decide on that. But when you did this Twitter spaces in April, there was actually a guy vetted, I believe.

Shout out vetted. Yeah. Yeah, cuz I'd see I'd seen I'd seen a video on this I think a couple weeks ago who apparently at the time had heard through the grapevine of a couple other people He was connected to that you had a story of How being ordered to assassinate an alien now? This was like at the time shot down or whatever and then fast-forward from April 2024 when that was first like floated by him and he caught backlash for that. Now fast forward to December 2024, the program comes out on the 16th and I

believe like a day later, I forget who it was with. I'm sorry. I'll put the link in description, but you do like a 22 minute interview. I think it was on YouTube. Who was that with? Do you remember? I think it was with Digby for now. Alessi, can you look this up real quick? Jason Sands interview alien assassination and look for the one that's 22 minutes. I want to give that guy. While he's looking at that, I'll respond a little bit. Yeah, yeah, please.

Anyway, yeah, Vetted had put out the video, but he said something like, I killed a blue alien. Yes. And I was like, oh, shit, that is not what I said. Because he was confusing two different things. Who had you said this to or whatever he was misinterpreting? I don't know who he talked to behind the scenes, but I did mention it to only one other or two other people. Okay.

That there was some stuff that I had, some work that I had to do that I don't like talking about because it brings PTSD back. But the other thing was that this blue alien, I was like, no, I didn't kill a blue alien. So I immediately called vetted and we settled it up. And I said,

look, that's not right. And I said, can you take it down? You know, because it's not correct. And then he, he didn't take it down, but he corrected himself. But that's, I said, can you take it down? You know, because it's not correct. And then he, he didn't take it down, but he, he corrected himself. That's because I contacted him and we

got to know each other. He's a really great guy. And he's, he's, he's also somebody I consider a friend through all this. He doesn't agree with all my stuff and I don't care about that. It's not his life. Yeah. And this is the video right here, post-disclosure world. That's who it was, who you did this with. So this is, this is what I want to get at because you don't say any of this back in April. And when you talked with James and gave the testimony on the documentary, you didn't mention any of this. You didn't mention lost time unless that was on the cutting floor, James. You can fill that in. Yeah, I don't remember about the lost time, but I definitely remember.

I called Jason. I was like, dude, you are killing me right now. What are you talking about? All right. you want to kill the credibility of all the testimony i'm already riding the line with you this encounter uh you know so all right so and i was having a big issue yes and and and you have to understand this is like a crazy claim for the average person like like me to hear the blue aliens already tough that's already tough agree but like when you're like i was forced to assassinate for the Intergalactic Federation, you know, whatever. It gets to like, all right.

Crazy status. So my first question is, before we get into it, because I want you to explain what this was. What was the decision-making process for you, A, not to share that with James when you testified on the documentary, and B, not to share it in the Twitter spaces when you went public and had a six-hour forum to share your experience? Initially, I thought it was bad for it. I didn't want to talk about it for the film because it was something that I did not like to talk about to begin with or even remember. And mainly that I was comfortable talking about other subject matter. However, you know, there are people that are close to me that did get to have more information than even Congress did in certain aspects.

And one of them is this particular part of the program that they run that deals with no kidding stuff that is cleaning up problems for themselves. And be that human or otherwise, that being the case. So they do have a part of the program and people that do handle that. In your opinion. In my opinion. Okay, let's leave it at that. Yeah. So anyway, that's the kind of thing that I was asked about.

Now, was there a thought process when they asked me this? No, they caught me off guard is what happened. Because like I said, the PTSD dealing with some of this crap that goes on inside the program is very hard to handle. And what were, so what, just so that people have transparency out there, because you have said this publicly, what is it that you explain was the context with this? As in you received an order from someone at some point that said you got to shoot this nhi and i i feel really uncomfortable talking about this because this is a credibility destroyer in my opinion and it really bothers me that i don't like talking about it and i don't want to be connected to it it's going to bring back reform well there well actually i've already told him

that all right so so if you're going to make those claims i'm walking out the door no i'm not just i'm sorry i have to tell you. It's already bad enough. Yeah, because right now we're treading a line where I've already got. I said even if it's true, don't talk about it. Right. Not to say that I believe it. It's a credibility killer, and it's horrible.

James, I understand that. Yeah. When you interviewed Jason for the documentary, there's none of this there. No. You've already described how you went through and vetted it. Nothing's perfect and whatever. No story's perfect with anyone, regardless of who it is. I'm just saying, I don't feel comfortable talking about it. It's something that I would like... It's horrible that it even happened. And I've explained to him, if you're trying to discredit your entire

everything, then continue on that path. Then let me ask this. I'm really uncomfortable all right listen to say you know out of respect for you i'm going to refer people to the post disclosure yeah podcast that was said okay we will have the link make sure we have the link to that in the description alessi i'll double check that and so to clarify on my side yes why what made you want i was caught totally off guard but why did did you say it? Because they asked me, anybody who knows me knows I'm an honest guy. If I have a question that I'm given, I will give you at least what I can talk about. But this also made my head spin when they asked me this,

because this is attached to some very dark times that I had to go through in, um, in those years. So for out of respect for me, at least it took me a good week to get my head back after that interview. Okay. It was that bad. I mean, you're talking like a PTSD kind of a on fire kind of guy. That's what happened to me. And I do not want to walk that path again. So what I think, let me, let me step in here for a second, if you don't mind, and editorialize, because I got to look at this from my seat, from a journalistic perspective, from a human being perspective, from a, what we've heard today, perspective, all of it put together. I had mentioned earlier, I don't think any one human is perfect. I don't think anyone's story is perfect. I think there's a lot of gray area. I think that we have, you've done an amazing job today

demonstrating your life story, the credibility of things you literally have done in the military. Yes. The person you are and where you came from. I was sitting here, moved borderline to tears hearing about your childhood and how you overcame that and all that. I think that's incredible. You have also voluntarily mentioned, and I completely understand this and have the utmost respect for it, that naturally through many experiences in your life from childhood to the military to some of the stuff we talked about today, you certainly have PTSD, which I talked with you off camera before. That is a subject that's very passionate, that I'm very passionate

about. I've had the honor of speaking with a subject that's very passionate that I'm very passionate about. I've had the honor of speaking with a lot of guys, especially people in the military, but some other people as well in other contexts on this podcast, probably about, I think I told you 15 or 20 times, but I think it was probably more than that. I have to go back and count it in the course of this podcast. And, you know, I understand that the way that sometimes stories are expressed and memories are repressed or pulled out is not always perfect. So I have respect for that. And I have respect for the fact that maybe there are things you've said along the way where you get caught off guard. You remember something that didn't happen or you remember something in a different context.

Not putting words in your mouth. I'm just saying hypothetically. Here's my mind on exactly what I feel about that experience. Okay. I'm still dealing with, even if it's a nightmare or a memory at this point. Yeah. Because I have avoided it for so many years. I have also, I have a psychiatrist that I talk to every month about PTSD,

but I have not broached what I have been exposed to in full with that person. And I am going to discuss everything with that person. And if the decision is that, yes, this is just a repressed memory or if this is just something that happened and your mind is trying to do something with you and making you, you know, come up with a different memory just so you can survive that memory. I, I want that part, that psychiatrist to get their professional opinion, not some guy on YouTube or some guy on Twitter. They're not qualified for that. Um, all I, all that happened was I got asked a question that was caught off guard.

It spiked my PTSD. That's where it is. Give me a break. I'm going to go back and spiked my PTSD. That's where it is. Give me a break. I'm going to go back and ask the right questions and make sure that my psychiatrist knows. And I'll talk about it. And whether or not it's personal or not after that and I want to talk about it again, that's kind of up to me. And whether it's going to harm me or not. Right now, I've already received a great deal of harm.

Which I feel bad for because I was the one that exposed you so you know that was my that was all on me well not this one i mean this one was kind of on me i did not have my guard i did not have my guard up properly and they caught me off on a question and i was like shit after i'd said it i thought to myself shit i never should have brought this up and i should have just told him i am not comfortable talking about this. Leave me alone about it. Okay. Did it, did it particularly sting when some members of the military community? I have the greatest respect for the vets and the JSOC folks. The people that they actually interviewed with knew what they knew, but like the guy who was in my career field and said, Oh, Jay couldn't have been in a SAP program

and he couldn't have been leaving for two weeks without everybody noticing. I just showed you why that guy's wrong. JSOC, I have never claimed to have been a JSOC guy. I helped them cover down their security on it. So the JSOC guy, full respect for, yes, he knows his stuff inside and out. He does not know all the black programs and who's being hired because some of those guys JSOC guy, full respect for, yes, he knows his stuff inside and out.

He does not know all the black programs and who's being hired because some of those guys are like him and didn't make the cut and then became mercenaries. And I think there's some other people out there that have testimony that can say that there are some really nasty types in the mercenary corps in these black programs. For sure.

And so the JSOC guy, give him credit. He did a great job, you know, putting up what he does for a living. And I totally respect that. You had mentioned way earlier that none, and we've mentioned a few times throughout, that none of this, when it was happening or whatever, was discussed with your family in any way, but you did discuss it in recent years around the time where you were gonna be coming forward with your family in any way, but you did discuss it in recent years around the time where you were going to be coming forward

with your wife and your kids. What were those conversations like? They were tough. I mean, when I told my wife, she just literally was like, what? You know, and I was like, yeah, I remember so-and-so and so-and-so and so-and-so. And when I took off on this and that,

this is where we went. And she was like, yeah. And I was like, that was a mission that I did for the program. And she was like, you kept this from me? You know, it turned into a kind of a fight. Because I was like, yeah, I did it. And I didn't tell you. So it was tough.

And then some of my kids, they were like, oh, this is good. And other times, you know, I've got a couple, two of the kids are just like, I don't know what to think, you know. But most of them are just in general just saying, yeah, you know, this could happen. Well, it is obviously mind-blowing stuff to say the least. It is. It's not an easy walk either. No, I know.

I know. I know. And I hope that one day we all will be able to hear the full Monty and not have all this, to me, having experienced it the way I did, this is my reality. Okay. However, you guys did not have to go through the things I did. At some point, I'm hoping that we get to the point of reality that we're not alone, where you guys will get to know what I know. And you're going to be like, holy shit, Jay was never telling us a lie. We just couldn't accept it at this point in time. And that may be a day within our lifetime. And I'm hoping so. And that's my point of wanting to come forward as well, is that this is not...

And the other... Here's another thing about my way of thinking about why I did it on Twitter. I've seen so many people, good people with integrity, clearances, and everything come forward to Congress and failed. So many – decade after decade after decade after decade of people coming and giving testimony. And I thought, well, nobody's tried reaching out to the public. And now we've got these great social platforms to be able to do this and i thought you know just about every great thing that this nation has done has been from the people you know we're the ones who fought for our independence you know all these great things we've done all throughout our our lifetime as a nation and i was like maybe the people are the missing key maybe that's the thing that's going to push congress to actually go out

there and get the investigation done and get to disclosure. And then maybe some of the other people that have been in the program with me will come back and say, yeah, everything Jay said is true. I know that they did this. We're not there yet. That's the thing. Even if you go back and some things actually are repressed things where other memories that maybe didn't happen come back. But there are pieces of what you say. Let's even put a low percentage. Let's say if 10% of what you say is real, it's a big deal. It is. And I want to not only give you that respect,

but also at least leave open the possibility that there are things we're dealing with that we cannot conceive of in the general public that guys like you are helping to bring forward. Now you've talked about these other whistleblowers. Obviously David Grush is the most well-known of them, but there's around 40 or whatever who are in this network that he's talked to. You've had a chance to talk with at least a few of them. Have you had some tough conversations with them where you guys are talking about each other's stories and being like, really, did that really happen? Yep. All the time. They've experienced other things and other times have been very accepting because I'm like, yeah, that fits what I know. There's some whistleblowers and I'm like, I don't know what to think about that.

Somebody was telling me just the other day that I actually respect the opinion of this individual who seemed to be in a position to know that there are only roughly 20 people on the entire planet that have the bigger picture. Yes. Do you agree with that? I agree with that. Because seeing that was kind of the curse and the beauty of my position is that I had to be read in at the umbrella level like the leadership is. So I didn't have to go, you know, if I went to Wright-Patterson, I didn't have to do a bunch of read-ins. I could just automatically go in and start monitoring without having to read into it. Well, all the programs they have running through there. And then also I had the luxury of being able to listen to the people at the tactical level that had all the detail of what was going on on a day-to-day basis inside those programs.

There's very few people that have that level of detail and the big picture that the leadership knows and that's what my team was hired to do is that we listened to all of that so it's a very unique level of information um but think about it let me give you an example then just to run through your mind that you can understand where i'm coming from and this is what i kind of did with congress too and i'll say i'll say it here well. I'm not going to shortchange you on language. Okay. I'm here for one reason only, and that is to make things better for people. And if you can't see that from my look on my face, the sincerity in my voice, then you got something else going on through your head, because you can tell I'm a man that doesn't cotton to anybody else other than what I know and what I'm trying to do to help people.

Now let's put the shoe on the other foot. Now let's, let's say that we're the intergalactic race. Okay. And another civilization is looking at us. Okay. What kinds of things in our society have I talked about that are really off my rocker? If we're as messed up as we are right now, and you're a race coming in from another planet, looking at what the hell's going on on this planet, and the crap we put up with. It's hard to conceive because I can't put myself in there. Exactly.

And that's just it, is that this is what I've been exposed to. That's what other people have been exposed to. And it's so hard to know what you know and not be able to get it off your chest because some of it does affect you badly and some of it does affect you well because i mean that encounter in the desert i actually it changed my life for the better i feel because i was there yeah because i feel like uh that guy was very civilized and i kind of want to be that person. I want to be calm and peaceful, accepting and everything else.

I didn't want to be that fearful guy that felt snake bit. So in a way, even though he looked different or whatever and you knew that's not from here, you viewed him as a person. Yeah, there was a kindness to him. You viewed him as a, and you use that word, you view him as like a person. Yeah, I don't call him an ET or nothing. He's a person. And that's just what, I think that's something that a lot of people in this field don't even think about.

Because, wait a minute, complete your thought, please. If you've even had one encounter that's true, there's a civilization that's got its own form of government. It's got its own legal problems. It's got its own people that have to go to jail. There's people that do nasty stuff to other people they get into wars just like we do they're not thinking full-heartedly on they're just seeing the shiny object in the sky and wanting to know about the little green men but they're forgetting

about all the real meaningful questions about that's a civilization that craft was built in a manufacturing plant where you know you got to think about that because it's not just some shiny object that's like a golly gee whiz event but there's steps there are steps that need to happen like if you take a guy like me i've been at this for 30 years and i didn't report on close encounters of the third kind for 25 years yes almost yeah about 25 years because i knew it was a slippery slope and i knew that i hate to go back to that expression, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It's a great expression, though. But in some respects, it's really true.

It's like, if you're going to put it out there, my God. Let me add something to that. Yeah. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary explanation, but they also require an extraordinary investigation, which we have never had in this country. Yeah. No question about it. I use that quote all the time, James. You said that in episode 138.

I had never heard that before. That comes up probably every five podcasts or something. And it's true, you know, but the thing, just like what you just said, require extraordinary investigation. We owe it to ourselves because if anything, if this gentleman's saying, and a lot of other people that are saying, I'm not the only guy. I know.

I'm just saying, like I've reported this all around the world. If it's true, the implications are global, which is not just in the United States issue, right? Yeah. So we owe it to ourselves to provide the platform needed to create an environment for these individuals to come and give us the details needed to verify their claims? Because the stakes are too high not to. If you don't mind, James and Jay, just because this podcast is different than anyone I've ever done before, and because of the veracity

of the claims we've talked about today and everything, I want to address each of you separately for a second. So I'm going to go one by one and then we'll close this up. Sounds good. So first of all, Jay, and I said this already, but I want to say this again. I appreciate you sharing everything today and going through even very difficult memories and being very open and forthcoming. I've enjoyed spending time with you off camera. You strike me as a really, you strike me as a really, really good guy. And I want to put the cards on the table right now i thought you know when i first looked at this story it was complete bullshit i really did and i looked at it and i said and the strange thing is i would watch you i would listen to you talk like on the

spaces and then i watch you on another interview that was done i think with the new paradigm guys and i'm like you know i sit across from a lot of people i don't bat a thousand but i'm pretty fucking good at it right like it doesn't feel like a stone cold liar or anything like that like there's something else going on here and that that said because of the veracity of the claims i was like i was thinking about this yesterday i'm like how the fuck am I going to go in here with an open mind tomorrow? Like, cause that's, that's my job. I got, I got to go in here and I got to ask the questions and I got to do it from, we all have our biases, but as a human

being on a human to human level, I got to do this from the level of, you know, really trying to connect and letting your words tell the story, sink or swim on your own. And this morning I went and did a really hard workout. I got to do a boxing workout this morning. I was flowing. I came in here and, you know, I think I did have an open mind. And I don't rule out everything you've said. You've sold me on the sense that there are, first of all, your military record is on the record. I believe that. That's all there. And I appreciate that we had that all shared and had that exclusively. I believe what you're talking about in your childhood. I think that that's certainly, I can't even imagine that. I got to grow up in a great

home with parents who luckily didn't have substance abuse problems or anything like that. I count my lucky stars for that every day. And so somewhere along here that there's a lot of levels of truth. And because of the things you've been through, there are things that you just laid out very beautifully yourself that could be repressed memories or things that you remember differently than how they really are. And some of the claims could get perhaps outlandish at a point. That said, if there is even a small percentage of truth to what you've said about potential contact with NHI, and any of that can be used to push forward in the future, some positive disclosures so that human beings can be given the base information they

should be allowed to know, which is that we are not alone if that is the case, then I think it's a net win. And i wish you all the best and i i thank you for sharing all that thank you james and i and i you and i go way back you go farther back with alessi here again we gave a shout out earlier but like alessi was literally making moment of contact with you in college down in brazil Like it's the coolest backstory. Like you and I are tied together kind of forever in a lot of ways. You think my stuff was crazy. Holy crap. Yeah, true.

Unless he's got something. We should do a podcast on that. He's got some insane behind-the-scenes stories. We did do episode 85 where we discussed some of that. So people can check that out. But, you know, I care about you a lot. I have the utmost respect for you. I think, forget UFOs, you're one of the greatest documentary filmmakers I've ever seen in my life. You're a true artist.

You've worked your ass off your whole life. You care genuinely about this disclosure and getting truth to people. You're one of the happiest people I've ever met in my life. You're an incredible father as well and an incredible partner to Rebecca. And just, I can't emphasize enough, like the James Fox you see on camera, like he's even better off camera. And I hear you because I know how much you worry about your credibility, especially because you're looking at a very touchy subject matter here. And I hear you with that concern. And that's why I was respectful of some of that today to not go there. But I'm speaking hypothetically here, Jay. No, no, no, we're good.

I knew what I was getting myself into. We are good. I hope you can understand this. Just let me speak hypothetically for a second. If someone like Jay or any other witness ends up being completely full of shit and a total liar, if you did your job as a documentarian, which is to, okay, there's someone who's making a claim here. Let's put the cameras here. Let's put

the cameras up. Let's ask them the questions about what it is. They're going to tell me what they tell me, whether the line are telling the truth, that's what it is. I'm going to capture it for the people and allow the people to decide. In my opinion, you should never worry about that from a credibility standpoint. Now, if you vet somebody and there's a fuck ton of red flags or whatever, and you choose to ignore those, that's a different situation. And you have been accused of that by some people on the internet regarding Jason on this. And I know that's not the case. I know that's not what happened.

You've laid that out. You laid that out with Joe Rogan, the biggest show in the world. People can hear exactly like what the thought process was here. So when I hear you a half hour ago get really uptight about some stuff, I you. And I understand that, but I want to let you know, anyone who talks against you on that, I will defend you all day. I will make sure the big dogs defend you all day and fuck them. I know what you're about. I want you to continue doing what you're doing. I'm so proud of where you've gotten to based on all the bullshit that's happened to you. And I'm honored to have you in here as always. Appreciate it, Julie. I really do. And I want to say the same thing.

I totally echo that. You know, you are the man in my mind. And everything you said about your artistry, your work ethic, you're a great person is absolutely true. Well, it's not about me. It's not about you. It's not about any of us. It's about probably what will turn out to be the biggest story in modern history, in my opinion.

And if any of it's true, the implications are so vast and so significant, we owe it to ourselves to keep that you guys and the skepticism that people like whistleblowers and like me and other people have come forward. Congress is exactly like that right now because they're like, holy crap, this is number 40. We've heard 40 people, clearances, polygraphs, credibility. What do I do with this? They're're like you and then we have these other stories that are quite incredible and you got 40 of us now or more yeah and congress themselves are like should we act on this because i mean i can't think of another part of my lifetime when i've seen so many people that have already been vetted by all of these authorities and still we're on the fence about it. Well, the handful of people behind the scenes have gotten the details needed to verify their claims.

And that is what the American public deserves to have happen. 100%. So we need to provide immunity to people like yourself, put you on the stand, have you testify under oath, and give us the details that we need to prove or disprove what you're saying. Right. All right. Well, guys. Mic drop.

We are going to have both of your Twitter links down below. We're going to have the link to, well, X-Links, whatever it's called now. We're going to have the link to the program, which I want everyone to check out. You did an excellent job. We obviously, I think what it's, I'm going to decide this later, but we recorded for about four and a half hours today. So the first hour and a half may be a first opener podcast and this one where we started on your story may be a separate one i'll decide that later but everyone go check out the program please go support this man james fox and in the meantime if you want to go hear

more details on the actual program and behind the scenes you did an amazing podcast with joe rogan and also my friend chris ramsey so people could go check that out. And you did some other ones as well, I think with Matt and Shane's Secret Podcast. Yeah, Duncan. And Duncan Trussell. So there's all kinds of places to hear James talk more about the program if you want that content. But thank you guys so much. And we'll close it there. Yeah, thank you guys. You guys did a great job. All right. Everybody else, you know what it is. Give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace. Thank you guys for watching the episode. Before you leave, please be sure to hit that subscribe button and smash that like button on the video. It's a huge help. And also if you're over on Instagram, be sure to follow the show at

Julian Dory podcast, or also on my personal page at Julian D Dory. Both links are in the description below. Finally, if you'd like to catch up on our latest episodes, use the Julian Dory podcast playlist link in the description below. Thank you.