Julian Dorey Podcast - #27 - Michael Sahagian

Episode Date: December 23, 2020

Michael Sahagian is a sales expert, executive, and podcaster. Currently, he is a senior member of the SDR team at Stella Connect in New York City. He also Co-Host’s State of Sales, a podcast rethinking sales culture in the modern day business environment. ***TIMESTAMPS*** 2:41: Learning sales skills through experience; New York City during Covid; Recapping the frantic beginning of the Pandemic in America 14:21: Corporate groupthink in face of Pandemic and legal liabilities; When “it got real”; Paralysis by analysis; “This isn’t a political thing, this is a freedom thing” 30:13 Jordan Peterson; Twitter Echo Chambers; The desire to be proved wrong 42:12: Comment threads; People think in different ways; Empathy 47:38: Personal responsibility; Nuance; The loudest voices; What TV Shows can teach us 56:02: Headlines & Assumptions; Cancel Culture; Why things are never as bad as they seem 1:03:00: What the State of The Union Response Speech Says about rapid response culture; Central Banks and CYA culture; Michael talks about the money-grubbing congresswoman he worked for in college 1:10:14: AOC, Trump, & Attention Politics; Julian tells a Trump a story he heard about Trump’s media approach; the Pareto Principle; revisiting Jeb Bush’s flameout from the 2016 GOP Primary 1:20:53: How your priorities change as you get older 1:24:36: The importance of Curiosity; Michael talks about his confidence in figuring things out and trying new things; Michael and Julian discuss “The Plan” society sells you and why it’s a lie 1:43:55: The inverse relationship between Mental Toughness and Comfort; “The War of Art” By Pressfield; The importance of living free to try new things; Michael tells a story about his first time in Brooklyn 1:56:28: Groupthink; Getting stuck and bad habits; The value of Time in life; The problem with labeling all situations and people; Why there’s no such thing as “the one thing that has all the answers” 2:11:33: 2Pac (Tupac Shakur), the “spark” and what he said about figuring things out for yourself; Michael talks about the time he visited the Church of Scientology to see what it was all about (LOL) 2:19:38: “Tribe” By Sebastian Junger; The downsides of tribal culture in modern society; How internet culture gathers tribes to practice predictable behavior; The importance of Context 2:26:28: Virtue Signal Culture and the assault on Freedom of thought and critical thinking; A discussion about how society no longer curiously asks questions; Julian tells a Kobe Bryant story from his 2019 interview with Patrick Bet-David ~ YouTube FULL EPISODES: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0A-v_DL-h76F75xik8h03Q  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You are the only person that can control your destiny there and more importantly control what you know you think about it. What I mean by that is the people who are around you who may want genuinely the best for you, your family, your friends. They may not understand what you're doing. They may not have a concept of it. They may think what you're doing is stupid. They may think that that's not how it goes and it all comes back to the fact that it is not a part of the plan. It's not just like, do this, and then you're there. It's the progression and people fall apart in that period, or they're not sure what to do. What's cooking, everybody?

I am joined in the bunker today by my very good friend, Michael Sahagan. Michael knocked this one out of the park. This was an awesome conversation. It's one of my favorite conversations ever, period. Like, not just on the podcast, just period. And I think in particularly in the second half of this podcast there are themes that we cover that any person who would ever listen to this can find something in there that they really relate back to their life and and find some deeper meaning in it it was it was awesome to be a part of and i'll have michael on again down the line he did a great Anyway, if you're not subscribed, please subscribe.

And remember, I'm putting out short form clips now on YouTube pretty much every day. So I haven't pushed that in the past. But if you're not subscribed on YouTube, if you get a chance, go to the page Trendifier on YouTube and subscribe. That would be amazing. Thank you. To all the people who have left the five star reviews with a comment on Apple podcasts, they're amazing. Thank you to all of you. To those of you who haven left the five-star reviews with a comment on Apple Podcasts, they're amazing. Thank you to all of you. To those of you who haven't, if you get a second to do that, I'd really, really appreciate it. That just helps with new listeners who are coming in and deciding whether to listen to the show or not.

And then finally, let's keep that system rolling of sharing your favorite episode with one friend this week who you think would like the show. Some people have been doing that. That's adding new listeners here. So to everyone who has, thank you very much. And let's keep that rolling. That said, you know what it is. I'm Julian Dory, and this is Trendify. Let's go. This is one of the great questions in our culture. Where's the news? You're giving opinions and calling them facts. Everyone understands this, but few seem to do it. If you don't like the status quo, start asking questions. You can specialize in like the world of customer service i never knew what that was it's just like

oh like why would i ever want to call back what's the value in that and you can just get so deep into a specific area um i think sales it gives you that opportunity that not many jobs do they don't teach any of that in college sure no they teach nothing around actual sales and relationship building. And I'm not even blaming colleges for that. I'm just saying it seems to be kind of a fact based on people I speak to regardless of where they went. They're like, yeah, I didn't know any of this shit. So like you coming out, you were a poli-sci major, you said.

So there's a lot of different things you can get into after that. It's like kind of a broad-based liberal arts major. But you're like, all right, let me go into sales like i'll figure this out and it seems like it was just pure being thrown into the into the fire like all right i'm just gonna have to take my licks and figure it out because there's nothing in a classroom that prepared me for this yeah it's funny it's funny i wouldn't say anything in the classroom but at bucknell it was when i was doing the annual fund that was just calling people for money. So right off the bat there, I was like, all right, this is just a job.

Make some money. Then you're calling people for money. So you're calling graduates and parents. I was calling alumni and parents for donations. And those are always fun. The current parents were always the fun. Because it's like, oh, I'm already paying $60,000. You want me to get $100 extra bucks? Yeah, please yeah please yes f off like you know yes give me 200 actually yeah exactly no it was

it was very interesting that way but i was like you know what this is this is a very like trial by fire as a college kid you're just cold calling people a lot of the experiences were really good but it's just you know i was like pretty good at it it's something i enjoyed so you had some experience for sure yeah but then i wasn't like oh i want to do sales but like you know what i do have this background that isn't just some kids straight out of college doing a cold call the first time let me give it a try and it's kind of taking me here so yeah definitely been good i love listening to the speed of how you do things like anytime i'm talking to people on sales like they're they're on the ball they're everything and and like you're also you're living up in new

york city and you're not from new york city originally no i'm in south florida where in south florida fort lockerdale fort lickerdale that's correct fort lickerdale 954 second time in a row i i texted pinoc after after the last episode with uh with with luke and i was like i got your back homie yeah he's like only real ones know anyway neither here nor there but you've been up in new york now what like three four years something like that yeah okay there is something about being in new york but just in general like the northeast but especially new york where whether it's sales or any industry things just happen yeah like fast like boom boom boom boom boom and it's

kind of this big paradox right now because new york has stopped it literally like like the city has stopped since march yeah and being in an industry like yours no problem being able to go remote and we talked about earlier like some of the adjustments like an actual sales cycle and stuff like that but you're able to do it and a lot of industries have been able to do that but the whole vibe of like the hustle and bustle of the street and like that energy and and and how to be in that all the time and and affect how your game face is on every day to do what you do it's it's not there right now yeah no it's it was shocking at first because i i remember you know it's the it was mid-march it was like my birthday was right around that time and like weeks and months before it was you know the jokes is like oh the covid's like in china

like it's another you know it's like sars or something that was you hear about it that wasn't in the states so he's like no big deal and I remember I had a friend who's like really into, you know, data and analytics and he, we're at a bar like, oh, this is just a joke. And he was just stone faced. It's like, this is going to be bad. It's like, if this guy's freaking out, I got, this is, I'm a little nervous. And yeah, I remember our company, it was because March 12th, that's when everything changed.

And it was just like Tom Hanks, the NBA. I was like, oh, man, here we go. And I remember the next day our company was like, hey, we're going to do a trial work from home day. It'll be cool. Trial. Yeah, it's like we'll be back on Monday and we're all like on Friday like, hey, everyone, it's a Zoom. It was all this and then not knowing it'd be yeah we don't have an office anymore like kind of thing but yeah it was weird because most of my friends you know were home there was no one in

the city besides my girlfriend uh shout out courtney but uh but it just it was just so bizarre the city of just everything going on to just be nothing and not having the the little things you didn't think about that made your day until now. Like, I miss my 20-minute commute. Just having that process of just walking to the train, just thinking about whatever, doing that office, just moving around the steps. Like, I'm a big runner. And I just know that even if I was still running, my steps were just so decreased because besides my run, I was just in the apartment.

I would have to force myself to like walk across the city just to do something. That was just like mentally not being able to like have those things there was shocking. And then the second thing I think, just the eeriness of the first couple of months of just no one was in the city. It was something of like, I'm in the East Village and I'd walk to lunch the middle of the day the union square normally just a normal walk you never would think but it was so empty you know they're really just mostly like homeless people around that time i was like i gotta like be like check my back in new york city at lunchtime in an area that never before like i had to think about so yeah it was tough it was just like a lot of uncertainty

and i think um i think the great thing though about new york is people are resilient it's people very creative it's just you know we don't have this what could we do in the meantime restaurants bars it's like i can't do what i normally do how could we be creative of just trying to service the people that are here the people are there's still millions of people that are there like i obviously there are people that left but then you know you have people that come from other places in the world it's like this is they can't leave yeah so i think that was an important thing i realized that yeah a lot of my friends they went back home or someone to the hamptons but like their immigrant families that like they had no they couldn't leave so it was interesting just to see the like people that were there like who was still there like what it was like what still it is now

you look out at some of the boroughs especially yeah outside of manhattan so you look at queens you look at the bronx look at stad and island brooklyn well parts of brooklyn depending on where we're looking right there's a lot of people who are born and raised there so yeah they're not necessarily leaving and yes there's and continues to be a a mass exodus from manhattan that said to your point there's a lot of money still there with real estate holdings there's a lot of people internationally who are still there maybe they're not there right now and that's part of what it's going to take to rebuild it. But to have that, it's just so crazy because when you look at the two weeks leading up to COVID, I don't know how much you guys saw because you guys are based out of New York in your case, but it seems like the

tech sector knew first that this was coming. So the week before, I always look at Friday the 13th. That was my first day of quarantine. I was up there too in North Jersey, and it was bad. And so I actually saw a doctor that morning and had something done, and I remember turning to him and having a long conversation about it, and he was the one that really sold me like, okay, this is different. And so I called the, I called the office cause I was leaving the job in a few weeks anyway. And I was like, all right, yeah, I'm, I'm, uh, I'm going to chill at home. Cause you guys are not going to be the office on Monday, but that if, if you go back

like a Friday before that, or Thursday before that, you saw that week before, I think Google canceled the IO conference that you saw South by Southwest get canceled as well. And I remember getting a call from one of my clients, Jake, who owns a company out of Austin in New York City. And so he had moved his headquarters to Austin when it was before COVID. He had moved it like a year and a half before. And he was like, listen, man, I need to figure this the fuck out because everything's shutting down and i'm listening to all these conversations in the tech community right now and they're like nope we're going to be inside for months and months and months so he goes i don't really know but

this is fucking crazy and that was when i was like hmm like this guy's always in the know he's in the middle of the shit so if he's saying this that means a lot of people are saying this and then you had that week where it was like tuesday you had joe rogan have on mike olster home on his podcast once i heard that i'm like everyone's gonna see this i had i was tracking it i think the main clip where he explained everything was like he had eight million views on that within a day. He had 11 million views on the episode on YouTube within a day. We can't see the data he's getting on the audio downloads and I'm like, holy shit. And then

the next day is when Gobert and Donovan Mitchell. That was crazy. I remember watching that game. It was just it was like huddle and then they're about to tip off and then it's just the players are back in and the tweets, it's just like players are back in and the tweets, it's just like players go back to locker room

player test for COVID, NBA season cancels. You remember Cuban on the half court like he like leaned back, he's like oh my god right, but then I think that was you know, obviously there's fears of it, but then I think then it was kind of like

oh my god, is this like this mislite going to kill everyone in the arena right now? But it was just shocking because it's just, this is real. I think for a lot of Americans, there's just, I've never experienced anything like this of, you know, you see problems in other parts of the world.

It's just like for Americans, it was just like, well, now we're part of this all. It was unprecedented, Michael. Unprecedented. Yeah, well, to bring it back to New York, though, that's – the wave came. It was like coordinated almost. And New York, densely populated area. This thing was traveling out for God knows how long because the communist Chinese government lied to us about everything that was happening there.

And right away you had like the focus on de blasio and cuomo like what are you gonna do because new york it's already having an outbreak and that's when i was learning about people in my life who had it and had it bad and i was like oh shit and so they pretty much shut down yeah now you said that your company said oh we're gonna do the trial thing on friday is that right the friday and then they're acting like oh you know on monday we'll probably be back in yeah and then it's like monday and then it's like in two weeks in a month it said indefinitely and then a month ago it's like yeah we just closed down our office so tbdm when we come back so so they weren't they like on monday even though they weren't like oh you know we're gonna be closed for two months they were still like day-to-day

it was still pushing it a little bit. Yeah. But it was just one of those things like, come on, like we all know. Yeah. It's going to be a little while, but I think it's the type of thing. It's the balance, you know, of the safety of everyone. Cause it's not just, you know, they're doing the decisions for the company, but for the people as well. And it's just, it was uncertain.

It's just like, this is something you're in HR or something. You have your playbook of what to do for a company no one ever read that in case of a pandemic this is what you do so it's just like i i i i i'm not gonna get mad like it's i i'm lucky that they do the best what they can but it's just uh there's a lot of uncertainty there still is it's just our expectation of companies in this is not fair especially in hindsight like you don't know with that that's not like it's even unfair to governments in a way and i think the government's botched us at every level we'll talk about that but i'm not i'm definitely not excusing the governments i just want to be clear like at the very beginning

like there's certain things like okay yeah that wasn't their fault right it's as things go on and what happens that's where it starts to be like okay you've had some time now you know what's going on and what the fuck but these these companies were forced into this situation where no one wants to be the first right no one wants to be the first company that has someone get it in their office or somehow associated with something social that happened with their company and then die. And then guess what? Get sued. Yeah. And that's the sad commentary.

But that's what creates the whole fear around things because once you have the fear of litigation, I'm not even talking about loss of life. Like we focus on loss of life all the time. And yes, obviously that's the main focus. But once you have the fear of like, oh, the litigation around the loss of life like we focus on loss of life all the time and yes obviously that's the main focus but once you have the fear of like oh the litigation around the loss of life now the dollars are affecting everyone who's still going to be on this earth at this company or whatever now it starts to get to well let's not take a chance and then if they don't take a chance the next company says oh let's not take a chance and then if they don't take a chance and so on and so on and so on and then when you have it from the top where the governments are saying stay inside, socially distance, whatever. I mean, it's like a cascade.

Once the dam breaks, that's what it is. So you guys go inside that week, but it's still kind of day to day. When did you start to realize like, oh, shit, I'm going to be here a while? It's just almost kind of like a blur just because it's just, you know, it's nine months ago. It's just crazy to think about. It's crazy to think,

we were talking about Kobe driving here and it's just kind of like that happened the same year as this. Anything that happened before March, that January and February, that feels like years ago. It's like 10 years ago. I was saying to someone the other day, I'm like, imagine if I told you heading into 2020 that Kobe Bryant, beloved former basketball player and more than that, he and his beautiful daughter were going to be killed with nine other people in a helicopter accident.

And it's not going to be a top five story of the year. You would have looked at me like what the happened right well here we go it's insane and i think uh just kind of going back i think the thing it wasn't in my company but just being starting to observe um the behaviors of people in new york city of like how severe it was because the beginning the more many people i think the mask wearing that's where it started to at the beginning i wasn't i never had owned any mask or anything but then i would definitely see in my area like the chinatown area like because i think people from asia had you know or always wearing masks beforehand

so it's like those are the people that had the mask from the get-go yeah so it's like okay they're just wearing the mask whatever and it's just slowly over time you start seeing like when i would say like late march early april it's just in the same thing it's like it got from the beginning of like most people weren't wearing masks so it's like oh that person's wearing a mask that's kind of they're the outsider and then slowly started this shift of like mask weren't the things that you were uh you know you were seeing more and more of just in the city so it was just very it was like a slow trickle of like this is a reality because i you know what's funny i remember at the same time the big deal was when new york um got rid of like plastic bags like that was their like countdown in march it was just i was like oh man i gotta pay five more cents for a bag now

what was i remember i vaguely remember right now what was the story there they literally banned plastic bags anywhere yeah and it was a the five cent tax and it was something that like literally around the same time and i was like all right this is the big thing in new york everyone's gonna like kafuckle about and it was just uh you know it's like stuff like that it's just like this is the biggest thing we were worried about. And then it just puts things in that perspective. But I think another thing you mentioned, and I bring that back to sales. Sometimes people in sales are, you just overthink everything.

I like the phrase paralysis by analysis. It's just like, sometimes you're just like, you want to prepare for a call. You read this book, you watch this YouTube clip, you do all these things sometimes it's easier just like do it do it just like you sometimes you just hold yourself

back because you just want to double check every little thing to be perfect you're never gonna be perfect like i i'm not in government i there's so much i don't even get so i'm not gonna pretend like i'm an expert but i feel like sometimes it like, let me do this to appease this person and that person. And it's just like, let's just do something instead of just talking about it. And it's just like, you're going to always piss off someone. Something's going to go wrong. Find me a place where you do something and everyone's happy. I'll tell you, it's not real.

Well, I think that is an extremely relevant little segue you just did yourself there into how, in this case, some of the sales aspect relates to policy and what we've been seeing. Because now we are nine months in. And it appears like a lot of the federal response was botched here it feels like maybe once it actually hit in march it was decent there for a while and then i don't know what happened the states have all been different some of it's been far too severe others as far as their policies around covid others have maybe been far too lax i don't really know. And I try to stay here with it, right? But recently, I would say, especially over the past two or three months, there have been a lot of very alarming trends to me on how they handle this. And you talk about how politicians in this case are looking at it like well they're trying to appease people and whatever

and there is a lot of it that's that but there's a lot of manipulation in it too like they're trying to appease people who they've manipulated into a belief system where they're going to appease them towards when you think about it so you talked about how new york wasn't even wearing masks until the end of march or beginning of apr. I remember, because I was inside the whole time quarantining, I was a tenth of a mile from Morristown Medical. You know, it was like ground zero there in North Jersey. So I wasn't going anywhere. And I remember my first time going to run to the CVS at the beginning of April.

And I walked in there. I didn't even know what masks were. And everyone's got a goddamn mask on and they look at me they're and everyone just like looks at me really funny because i'm like hey what's going on like walk in there whatever and then i'm like i'm looking at all the faces i'm like oh and i took my hoodie and put it over i was like okay i guess we're doing this but again like that formed so quickly and it formed from messaging from the top. And so when you look at the appeasing that's going on, the appeasing that we're seeing at this point, nine, ten months in, to come back from when we were just getting used to mass in March and April, is now at a level to which the goalposts have been moved so many fucking times that you don't know where it ends

and these people come to you like they're your friends they talk to you really softly and and like you know hey i just want what's best for you and we're just trying to save lives here that they take these actions that people don't think about the repercussions of what they can mean down the line and right now yes it certainly appears to be like there's democratic politicians who are doing this more it's just a fact i would prefer to not make this a party thing though and look at this as a government thing the states where there happen to be democratic politicians in charge are where there's urban populations more than likely so california new york boston whatever so it's just a result of that and you see in this case the people

saying like oh no we're going to tell you when your business can open. We're going to tell you when you have to shut down. We're going to tell you you have to stay inside. We're going to tell you when to take this vaccine. We're going to tell you to do all these things. And now people are looking at it like me and going, hmm, when a government's trying to sell me on this stuff and they've been selling me repeatedly in a different way just getting me farther and farther down the rabbit hole for a long period of time it feels like they're taking power that they're probably never going to get back because governments don't get back power yeah it's it's just it's just like what's going on i it's i don't know i don't have an answer

because it's just i don't know the way i i look at these things i can't sometimes simplify something that's very complex it's just kind of all right there's a pandemic i'm healthy statistically i'm probably going to be fine i might have had it even if i don't get it whatever um if i die that'd be statistically the anomaly like whatever i i won the worst lottery you can ever get yeah but it's just kind of like these basic things of all right wear a mask inside whatever like sure i'll do that like i'm doing the the necessary things like don't don't make arguments over this stuff which frustrates me it's like do the bare minimum and you can still live your life like obviously like believe me i'm

someone like i love concerts like the bars, all this stuff. It sucks not being able to do any of that. But we're going to get to a point where life will get back to normal eventually. It's just, all right, there's a vaccine out there now. In X amount of months, it will be distributed and will be okay. So I don't know.

It's just fresh. It's just like there's no answer and it's just what now it's just like because new york is just like oh indoor dining got shut down yeah and it's just like here we go again it's just i think the first time it was a different you know level because it was just oh shit like what do we do and this has never before happened it's like things slowly started being taken away then it's like okay we're back to a level of we have to live with the virus this is the behaviors we'll have until a vaccine is distributed yeah and it's like all right here we go again and then it's just like what do i do now like i that's just something i just know a lot of people are frustrated it's just like especially businesses in the city it's like i just see it was a nose announced like

yesterday and then within hours i see like bars i go to it's like we're closing down it's just like that quick it's just like how that happened and then again you have these guys these public figures some of them unelected i might add coming out and say you know fauci going on tv going well the the the vaccine The vaccine being 90% is a very good sign. But when you get it, I would say you want to social distance and continue wearing your mask and doing all the things. Because while it may be 90% for other people, it's not necessarily 90% for you. And you're listening to him and you're like he's already trying to set the expectation that when we have the vaccine we're not going to be able to be normal and so like and here's the funny thing about a podcast man when you're doing this every week putting out two episodes a week

one episode a week whatever it is yeah you're having long conversations you have some things that age very well yeah and then you have some things that age very badly right right so when i had horo in here for like eight hours and we did a couple podcasts, we had so many amazing conversations in there that are just so far aging beautifully. And then there were like three or four where within like five days, I was like, ooh, that one missed. Right. we talked about that i still wasn't thinking about at the time as much and i've just thought about it more and more and it seems like it aged terribly was being somebody who was in new york like you the whole time he was going through how cuomo approached it and i tried to pull out the situation because i saw cuomo and trump bitching at each other like children and all that this whole time and i'm like that's just fucking politics like i don't give a fuck like he's

gonna accuse him of this he's gonna accuse him of that let's just look at like what the response are and how the cases are doing and and where we're actually moving forward to get about the normal here. That's what I cared about. So what Horo was saying in that argument was Cuomo really followed the data at the beginning in order to make his decisions, and this is true. He even laid out on Twitter and on public platforms and his press conferences every day, exactly, I think, like the seven variables that he was looking at. I'll put them in the show notes what they were, but I remember this very well. And so, Huero was saying, hey, I really appreciated that because he was being transparent about what his metrics were to be able to do this stuff.

That now has seemed to completely change because while there are case numbers rising, we've seen a significant difference in the number of deaths per cases. We also have all kinds of questions around what kind of tests people are taking, which is a whole other thing. There's no doubt a lot of people are testing positive. I'm not denying any of that. That's not – like this isn't a quackery den right here. But you don't know how many of them are taking a pcr versus taking the actual like no bullshit test which is up the nose and in the throat and you also like there's context to it and so now when you see them coming out and shutting down restaurants again and telling

businesses when they can open and therefore like nine ten months in these businesses were already getting crushed they're done like they're fucking're fucking done now, and you are taking away their ability to earn. When you do that, the data that you now have doesn't support it. These fucking contact tracers and all this shit, like, that's what they claim to do,

unless it involved a protest, which was literally something de Blasio said back in June. He's like, you cannot ask someone if they were at a protest. Oh, you can't fucking ask them if there were around 10 million people out there. That makes a lot of sense. But besides that, these contact tracers are all over the place. And I don't know who these people are. Like, do you know a contact tracer?

No. There's no one on LinkedIn. You don't type in contact tracer and be like, I am a contact tracer working for the state of New York. But whoever these fucking people are, they're out there tracing contact, and the data that we get reported shows that a very minimal amount comes from bars and restaurants it's like the number was around like two percent i think it was slightly below we'll check that but it's a low number where are most of the contact tracings

coming from they're coming from personal social gatherings which guess what they're gonna happen and that is the other slippery slope here because another thing that aged very well i might add from the horo episode was we went through the california mask mandates ahead of the holidays have you seen those i'm not going to rehash the whole thing fucking hilarious yeah you read it the government is basically telling you where you can sit in your own house. Who you are allowed to see. Oh, you have four kids and their families? Guess what? You can only

see two this holiday season. People don't understand the line that is being crossed there. And the more you just accept it and take it, I don't give a fuck where it's coming from. I don't care what party's doing it. Every party's been wrong at some point or another this is not a political thing this is a freedom thing yeah and unfortunately new york is just a very good example because

it's ground zero of the whole thing and now they're coming back and they're not doing what horo liked at the beginning they're not following the data they are simply telling people when they can do what they want to do and they are telling people no you don't have the right to earn and it's fucked and i think the thing is you know i feel like every month i remember the beginning it was like the cdc says it is only travels by this it's every month there's a new thing so for me it's like you know what they don't know everything i gotta make my own decisions at the end of the's, it's like, I think it's a problem with people just in general. It's just, you just live and die by, you just like any one person, you take every word of

the gospel, it can be very dangerous. So I'll give you an example very recently. Do you know a guy, Jordan Peterson? I know Dr. Peterson well. So here's the thing. I don't know who he was. Never heard of him. And it's something that like a friend

from high school brought up in the group conversation there's something about him and then instantly i'm like all right some people are like this guy's a fucking lunatic other people like give it you got to read his stuff i was like all right this is one of those people the vice of the uh people like that bring it to other groups and you get i get answers of all different places like all right this guy's controversial and i get that like i don't i watched a clip of him for two seconds and personally i'm like i don't like the way he speaks i like certain it's like the cadence i don't for me it's just i don't well it's just forget that's just you know yeah no it's just like that doesn't whatever but i think it's just

he's one person it's kind of like do I need to watch 50 lectures of the same person? I think some people are very – that's the thing with people. People are very – they just want to feel comfortable. It's like, oh, if the California government puts my kids here, I'm doing the right thing. They feel good. It's like, I checked off. I did a good thing today. Instead of taking a step back of, does this even make sense?

I think it's the same thing as like, if I just follow this one person religiously, like a hundred podcasts, obviously Julian's podcast, we want to listen to a hundred, but just, you know, like any other person, just like a hundred lectures.

No, maybe why don't do a hundred different lectures? That's how I operate. It's just like any one person, it's just, I don't want to just surround my values or like based off of what one person is doing. Cause I think you just get, that's just, I don't want to just surround my values based off of what one person is doing. Because I think you just get, that's just one way of thinking. Or even a group of like-minded people who say that.

Yeah. It's just so important. I think you got to take an honest step back of like, how am I getting my information? Is it all kind of the same way you know and a lot of people it's just easier than ever to put the bubble of what are your interests people that are like-minded and just stay in there and i think that's that so much of like what's going on of covid black lives matter just like every hot topic there's bubbles and i'm very interested to see in the future will we ever go to a place where people can come together and you know not just stay in their one spot god you're hitting

so many things right now i don't even know where i want to take it so i want to i want to go straight down the chute with this and go for it see what happens yeah but you're you're talking about i think you even said it a couple times i'm not sure but you're talking about the echo chamber effect and this is something that it's already starting to go away in the public conversation which tells you all you need to know but the social dilemma certainly ripped open the wound here and and showed what's going on there and so like i'm i'm a big twitter guy. And back in the day, I, I had a page where I tweeted all the time and it was for like a blog sports blog back at like end of high school, beginning of college. And once I ended that, I didn't use Twitter to follow my

friends or connect with people. I had a blank Twitter, like no following, no followers. And I just use Twitter to explore and see what's being said and get a feel for the usually the most robust loud voices on whatever the issues are wherever they are and so i've been a big user of it for years and years and years and now recently like i low-key started tweeting a little bit like the funny thing is like a lot of people i i know like in my network like if you look among my people i'm connected with on Facebook or Instagram, so few people actually, like, have a public Twitter. So I guess there's the people who use it, there's a lot of people like me who just kind of go on there for the news and don't say anything. So I don't have, I have, like, fucking two followers. I follow two people.

But I follow, it's interesting right now because being active on there again and having my personal homepage where I actually am connected with the people I actually do follow, I can see the echo chambers each individual is falling into. And I love it because I follow people who are of different walks and experiences and interests in life. So I can get a feel for all the content that is coming through on that person's page. And then I've even been like socially engineering and experimenting myself where I will start to go for a couple straight days where I make sure I only interact with this person's tweets. Yeah. Like detail expands and stuff. Interesting.

And then I'll watch what happens on my homepage over the next week. Right. And I see the stuff that they're liking more and the people that so-and-so follows, and I'll watch what's being said. And it is so fucking unnatural how we communicate on Twitter in these 280-character blast see these accounts that usually fall in the range of, say, 40,000 to maybe 200,000 followers. So not enormous, but not small, where they tweet the same one-liners all the time. And they ingrain these thoughts in you. And so I'll even give an example of one I like

because I think he nails it every time, but it's still important to say you familiar with with russell okun and i'm not he is you'll remember him he was the left tackle on the seahawks during all their oh yeah yeah yeah really you know two-time all pro yep i think he played for the bronc or chargers maybe for a year maybe the broncos a year now he's on carolina and russell okung is a big bitcoin guy and a big free thought guy so he's he's one of those like i don't want to put him i always say this about people because i'm not sure and i don't like to put him in a box he seems to be a libertarian type i don't want to say that for sure but go check out his twitter right i think his twitter is flames everything he tweets is stuff that i seem to agree with and yet even that because i think a lot of it is positive he talks a lot about freedom about the problem with psychological conditioning about the problems

of governments that take too much power about the the problems of looking at data and basically like taking advantage of it to make your point, which we're seeing from public officials now. And it all makes sense. But even I step back and say, okay, how much do I just already psychologically want to agree with what he's about to tweet that I get stuck there? So, i check myself and then say all right let's go find some opposite thoughts on this right and like a lot of times i do agree with him and don't agree with them but it makes like experiencing his account more honest for me because then i can be like oh well that's what other people are saying people don't do this on twitter people don't do this on instagram people don't do this on facebook and so they get caught

in these opinions and then they want to agree with stuff. So you look at a guy to bring it all the way back to your example, like Jordan Peterson, who I am very well aware of. I would not call myself like a fanboy of Jordan Peterson. I'm not subscribed to his YouTube page. You know, I've listened to him on like Rogan. I've watched some of his videos that show up on accounts on YouTube where he was like on TV and stuff. And he's like him he's very very very interesting guy but he got put in this box of this intellectual dark web conservative i don't even think the guy's conservative he might have been pushed there at this point which happens a lot i don't want to speak on that i don't know but he just had the audacity to come out and say hey that doesn't seem like

it's it so his whole thing when he rose to prominence and this is why he's controversial no one knew who he was but in canada they wanted to legislate on words back in like 2015 2016 so basically if you mispronounce someone they wanted to make it like a civil offense where you could be like fined for it and all jordan peterson did was say that's it that's how tyranny starts once you start affecting speech this is straight we have a book called 1984 that shows this is what the fuck happens and so he came out and said no i'm not going to do that and so what happened everyone said oh he's transphobic oh he's he's homophobic oh he hates people. He's a white supremacist. All this shit. And they can label him with this stuff and write him off. So, you use the word

controversial. This is what we do to people. We just label anyone controversial and now suddenly you have to preface when you talk about them. We shouldn't be doing that with Jordan Peterson. There are guys we should be doing that with. Donald Trump, we should be doing that with. He is controversial, right? But there's line, and we have now blurred it. And so all these people, they pick their tribe. Who are the leaders of my – am I a Kyle Kalinske guy or am I a Pod Save America guy? Am I a Ben Shapiro guy or am I a Jordan Peterson guy? And they pick their tribe, and then they hang on to every word that gets said there.

And then when someone just wants to disagree with it, they no you can't do that you're wrong i hate that i just think it's just so unhealthy to just live and die by a certain doesn't matter what but just like holding on to every word that someone says just. I don't operate like that. And going back to social media, I fucking love social media. I think it's such a powerful tool. If you use it the right way, like with Twitter. It's funny looking back over years. You were social Mike.

You were social media Mike. I mean, Michael. Excuse me. Oh, yeah. It's Michael. But it's cringy to look like dumb stuff back in the day of like my tweets. It's like, who cares what I say?

That's just like such a dumb, you know, thing to think about. But I think it's just any of these tools you can use to your advantage. Like, I don't give a fuck what this girl I went to school with 10 years ago is on vacation. I'll mute her. Like, I don't care. It's like, you just put it the way, the stuff that you want, your interests, and you make it so simple. Yeah, if I'm following every single person in my whole life

that I haven't spoken to in years, you're going to be stuck in purgatory of just like in your phone. It's just like you're just like looking at this stuff. It's like, oh, no shit, you're depressed. You're just like looking at the best stuff of people you don't even speak to um yeah and i i think it's something i guess i've never said it's like i fucking i love like comment threads because it's just yeah i think it's just such an even though if it's who knows if it's real or not but i think it's just always interesting to just there's just there's something posted and then immediately the top things are probably something that are against it.

So I'm like, you know what? Two ways of thought. That's, I think the first thing people got to do is admit you're not as smart as you think you are. Like I love saying like, I don't know what I'm, I don't know. I don't know something. Prove me wrong. I would love someone to prove me wrong and just learn from people.

My whole thing is I'm a sponge. I want to learn from this group, these little tribes. Yeah, I'm the guy that peeks his head into each one. Like, what's going on there? What's going on there? Okay, this is how you think. This is how you think. This is right, but maybe this isn't.

And it's being able to talk to people in all different groups is just so important. I think it starts, obviously, with Trump's election, it just really turned the whole Republican versus Democrat of like, oh, I won't talk to you if you're this. It's just, it's sad because it's like, I have friends on both sides and it's just basically saying, oh, should I just say half my friends suck? If that's like, you're basically telling me like, if my parents voted differently than me, it's like, they suck.

I can't think like that. I can't define a person just by that. I get it. I understand it. That's the difference. I might not agree with it, but I understand where you're coming from. But I just think people in general, it's just got to be just being more honest with themselves of not being afraid to find.

Be curious. Don't just be complacent. That's the beauty of like the internet. There's so much out there. It's constantly learning. People are just like, oh, I read this self-help book. I'm done. What are you looking for when you go through the comment threads?

I really like that you said that. Yeah, so like influencer X or big know big twitter account y when you're when you see a tweet from them or a post from them what like you hit the expand comments button sure and then what are you looking for or do you already kind of know what you're going to get and you just want to you want to see that no i i don't know that's the beauty it's like it's the type of stuff like in the moment someone says something and then it's a rebuttal and then they'll use an example and then i go on rabbit hole it's like all right he uses this example let me look up what this example is read that maybe there's a comment that for that it's just like a never-ending way of just learning

it's just it's just i'll i never want to be the smartest person on a subject matter like that's it's never gonna happen um it's just but it's just really to just learn from other people, just like see how people think. It's just like, this person in Kentucky is going to have a different experience than someone in Florida. The way they grew up is going to impact the ways that their ideology is.

Like, my girlfriend's from Canada, so we have discussions. Some things that she experienced versus me are completely different, just by the nature of where we grew up. She's an only child. I have two younger brothers. There are different ways of thinking there. You're an only child.

It's just like these kind of factors of like I always like to think of why did this person say that? Let's go backwards. You said this because of maybe the way you were brought up, your background, et cetera. I always think of like why did the person say that's why not just like you're wrong hmm you said that let's think why you did that you're i love to do that you're describing empathy yeah i think it's so important it's shocking people don't have that it's i don't know it's it's no but yeah i love i i want to attack this in a good way. Yeah. You are talking about not saying, hey, I'm going to make myself have to agree with this person. You are just literally asking why.

Right. And the ending to that story can and should be for – in a healthy society, an agreement to disagree happily if one side did not convince the other side with enough evidence that their case is stronger, which, by the way, you should be open to. You should be open to the idea that your mind can be changed. And let me just call this out. There are times in my life where that is not how I was. And we're always going to feel strongly about some things. I mean, I put opinions out here on this podcast. But I want the evidence.

If someone has a better case, I'm going to hear it. That's how I go from being an Obama guy to being a Trump guy to being a neither party guy. Like, how does that happen in eight years? I've talked about that before. Like, how do you go around the world like that? You go around the world like that because at some point you stop buying the bullshit that you're selling yourself every day and say, well, why am I saying these things? And so you're looking at it like, okay, why are other people saying these things? Because one thing about me that I pride myself on and I think is very important and you are telling me right now you pride yourself on is that like especially best example politics. Okay, someone's really, really pro-Biden or someone's really, really pro-Trump.

Why? Maybe I don't agree. Okay. But why? And we don't ask these questions and the sides of the aisles don't ask these questions either. These people don't like someone who really like Trump doesn't have empathy for, you know, a minority who likes Biden because he can't stand that Trump says something that's race baiting all the time, even if he doesn't mean it or not. Like, who knows? Like he's still saying that you don't know how that's going to affect that person. And then somebody on this side wants to call everyone on the right side a racist when, you know, some dude got his job saved because someone finally gave a shit about him in Washington, D.C. Neither of these people are right or wrong.

They have an experience. I still let politics define a person. There's so much more to who you are than the party. I look at it like, oh, this person, polite. Is he a friendly person I want to get a drink with? What are your interests? What do you like to do? At the end of the day, I mean, this, I don't know how to say this,

but it's just my day-to-day life isn't going to change no matter what. There's a privilege there that I'm aware of for sure, but I remember as a kid, I remember in 2000, because that was the first time i remember like from clinton to to bush i was like holy shit there's a new president like am i gonna wake up the next day what's gonna happen well seven it took 40 days exactly yeah but but just that kind of you know these big changes of like the sun isn't gonna to come up no matter what. Like that's what's going to happen. Like there are stuff that I don't see that impacts whatsoever, but it's just kind of like what's my day-to-day?

I got to – at the end of the day, whoever the president is isn't going to just like, Michael Sahagin, I'm helping you out. You have to do that on your own. I think sometimes – like there are obviously things that you can get help from on smaller scales but there's at the end of the day it's like i figure you got to figure it out yourself you gotta you control your fate there's certain things sure but you wake up you decide what to do that day there's no one else telling you what to do you're talking about personal responsibility yeah i love this topic yeah another one i love yeah

and once again i i think it's another example of something that does have some nuance though and i'll make some of the case here and you tell me what you think and you don't have to agree with me obviously but i look at this and i think i've hit on this before with somebody but you kind of put it into two buckets like let's start at the political level when you look at the democrats and republicans the republicans like to say pull yourself up by the bootstraps pure personal responsibility like no one needs to help you regardless of your situation anyone can do anything and then the democrats seem to say no everyone needs help and we need to we need to give more help than than

ever and we need the government to take care of everything, and we need to hand out this and hand out that, which really, psychologically, over time, has been proven to be like, well, it can get people stuck. It's like, this is too little on the right, and that is too much on the left, and I kind of land somewhere here. And so, I always use the extreme example of like looking in a very poor urban community you can't just look at them and say oh you need to pull yourself up this guy did it like they'll always prop up like somebody that made it out of the hood and they'll be like you know oh well this guy did it so you can do it too it's not that simple. Your environment shapes who you are. And the kid who's born into a broken home because his dad had him with his mom

and his dad then went to jail and it all started with an arrest for a joint when he was 16 that just spiraled his life out of control. Now this kid is growing up in that environment. His mom's working two jobs to pay the bills. She's not around. There's no guidance. No man in the house house no woman in the house for that matter the school systems suck and who he's got to like get to and from school he's got friends at school who are in

similar situations what part of the expectation can be like yeah you know that kid should be able to figure it all out for himself and pull himself up now the argument shouldn't be that's impossible that's what the left seems to want to say that's not the argument like you'll never be able to help yourself so we'll make sure we we just help you and keep you there forever in some ways but it also can't be like yeah man um figure it out and it confuses me a lot because if you're in regular middle class suburbia and you know maybe you don't have to get filled up with too much college debt or something like that which is all another rabbit hole obviously and you can kind of go from this you have a decent education you go from this point to that point yeah there's a lot more personal responsibility

there and i don't think you should be given nearly as many handouts. But how do you, like in your head, do you keep the balance of some places we do have to look at having help at a public level and not just throwing money at the situation? Like actually helping communities and helping rise up and prop up very poverty-stricken areas versus we don't want to do way too much of that and drag it everywhere. Yeah. That's a good question. If I had to answer, maybe I'd be the president. Yeah, maybe. Right. It's complicated.

But I think so much is – I'm always interested in like people that don't experience something have sometimes the loudest opinion about it. And it's just you know me i just remember i'll give the example i remember you know obviously after george floyd it's a lot of people like the black squares and stuff like that and it's just interesting of some people it's just i did this one thing i'm. I'm not a racist. That's not how life works. But that's an example of just like, let me check off the boxes. I don't like this. And it's just, I look for tangible stuff.

What are you tangibly going to do? And I think everyone can do stuff differently. Some people have the funds. That is one way to do something. Others can volunteer their time. But if you're just doing little things to just check off a box, that's not helping. So I think about this a lot in terms of, you know, I'm a white guy from Florida, and I'm lucky that I have a pretty diverse group of my friends growing up just to get

different perspectives of wealth, race, religion. And I think a thing that's always helped me out is what my interests are. And it's like taking an honest evaluation of, for me, I love movies, film, music, all different genres. And that's helped me understand different cultures so well. So I'm someone that i unapologetically love pop music i love it so much i love all genres and did you go to did you go to ultra back in the day but you went to ultra the thing is yeah that's me now was just hit me in the head for going there um but it's just that's an example you know i'm someone i don't have any transgender friends and the thing is in the electronic space i've found out like so many artists are trans gay lgbt it's just like i've really learned so much about the community through the music and it's just like that's just

one example of like yeah i can watch a clip online or something like that but that's just like checking a box to learn something more, but to really immerse myself and go to concerts where like, I'm the minority. It's just like, that's where the challenge yourself is really rewarding of, it's just a great experience because it's just like, first off, it's great music. I'm having a great time.

But then it's like, you know, this isn't the environment I'm always in, but there are people like this. There are people living this live and it's just being the observant one of like, I'm not – I don't want to say the intruder, but I'm just learning about a space that I otherwise wouldn't have to do something it's just i i think it there's like different levels of look at look at what you what do you watch like what are your favorite shows what if you like your favorite shows let's just say the most basic like the office and like friends or something sure a lot of people would say that and there's nothing nothing wrong with that yeah they're popular shows for a reason what if you watch the show that was like featured like a black storyline something that's different not saying you watch the show that was like featured like a black storyline

something that's different not saying you have to but it's just stuff like that or you know i've found stuff so you're saying you would encourage that yeah yeah i think just in terms of any anything it's just like different themes like movies to challenge you shows to challenge you that are different that aren't easy to watch is not saying you have to do that. But for me, that's just been something of like, I look at this stuff as an opportunity to learn in a different way. The director is someone that isn't like me. So they're gonna have a different thought process. So it's just going to be a different way of thinking. Always the more ways of thinking that you learn, I think it's just such a valuable skill to have. And again, it's

again, there's nothing wrong with like those examples I gave, but it's just, a valuable skill to have and again it's again there's nothing wrong with like those examples i gave but it's just this isn't an area that there's nothing wrong with what you're doing but you try something new challenge yourself you never know what you can find the worst that can happen is like you know this isn't for me i'll try something else yeah exactly yeah i think back in the day correct me if i'm wrong here i think i was the one who encouraged you to watch the wire oh i think you're the one that gave me a seven you're the last person that ever given me a physical dvd yeah yeah yeah yeah wow yeah exactly yeah exactly yeah yeah and that's i'll pound the table with that show for sure i mean until the cows come home because it's still today i mean it's still

so relevant right and people haven't watched it it It basically covers the war on drugs in Baltimore, and it is actors, and it is a fictional show, but it is so accurate that sometimes it's almost like a blurred line of a documentary. And you want to talk about getting another perspective on things and seeing the nuance and situations that occur within the confines of this country that is something that can open your eyes and it's so deathly accurate literally pun intended yeah that you can't walk away from that and be like yeah you know everything's cool right you you have like your mind is hey like if you do i guess that's your opinion i've never heard someone watch that show that then walked away and said yeah you know it's cool like your mind is gonna then suddenly go to wow i never thought about that or wow i wonder what i would be like in that scenario to go to pull back to your point on empathy that is and that's a prime example but you also then see the coordination of telling people or yeah telling people to go open their minds to stuff go too far yeah because it becomes a total paradox or whatever the word is where you are doing the

opposite of what you want you are telling people to open their minds but you are instructing them to yep such that if they don't open it the way you want them to open it it's a problem like i'm not gonna go like love robin deangelis's book i forget what it's called but on like how to i forget the name of it but it's basically i think that was the book we'll check this after but there's literally a book that talks about like when if you're a white person and you walk into a room with black people before you leave you need to apologize to them right like that is fucking crazy yeah that is the opposite that is that is taking an extreme of like when we treated black people literally as like not humans in this country at one point in our history which is something that happened that we got to live with it is like taking that and now trying to flip it back around it is not a

controversial statement nor is it not a not a logical statement for me to come out and say that's fucking ridiculous and no i will not open my mind to that i know how that ends and yet we're in this environment where people are like oh if you don't open your mind to that then you're an asshole your mind's closed and that's what i try like when i talk about issues like this on this show i want the nuance in there because there's so much of it it you can say in the same sentence that shit is fucked up and that shit is also not the worst it's ever been right it's i think that the biggest thing is people just want to label stuff it's just the easiest thing to just get yourself out of a

situation it's like that's what it is this person is this and that's it people are flawed we're all flawed we all have problems different degrees but it's so much it's just people don't want to have the the chat it goes back to like the phone calls a simple text make it quick a phone call there's a lot more nuance to it you can just get the emotion understand the person, instead of just a quick headline. I did this a couple days ago. It's just I read a headline, and I made an assumption off it.

I didn't read the whole thing. That's just everything. It's just the day. Twitter, 10 trending things. This person's an asshole. Racist. Rapist. I don't know. This guy got caught cheating on his wife like it's the

same cycle every day it's just you got to take a step back or for me nothing shocks me anymore it's like oh politician lied politician caught stealing politician had an affair in other news this guy is up this athlete took steroids this actor did coke like what come on like it's just it's just like people get in these loops it's an infinite loop it's just this is gonna happen let this happen and just live your life the microscope the keyboards have allowed oh across society yeah on every little issue has created this experiment lab science lab that is a never-ending state of chaos yeah we are i mean you want to chart it back in pop culture and look all the way back pre-social media to you know the highest

example like bill clinton and lewinsky and then you want to chart forward where we got towards social media and you want to look at an example like tiger woods now extrapolate those types where it's like literally the president and like one of the biggest sports stars in the world right and take it down to like the mid-level whatever who 30 000 people know who said this one thing one time allegedly that then becomes this trending topic and they get canceled that is dangerous because we have a whole bunch of people who come in and as a job literally like it's go look at their twitter feeds they're on twitter all day it is their job to go judge everything else that happens if you have this much time to go judge everything else that happens when are

you doing anything to make something happen in your own life to be able to say i have experience to say what should happen or what shouldn't happen yeah no one ever thought about that Yeah. subscribe to their ideology, thank God. But a lot of these platforms, even if maybe they don't subscribe to it, they are supporting far-left commentary, which is terrible in its own right. And that's how you create things like cancel culture. So yes, when we say this, unfortunately, you have to look at the politicized side of it and say, yes, the far-left has to own this.

It's not a party. It's what the far-left has become. And so how do you then fix it if it's just going to continue being trending on these different platforms? How are you going to fix it when you censor speech that appears to be people who are on the right side and you never censor speech, regardless of facts or not facts, when it's people on the left side or the far left side or whatever? There are answers to these questions that are literally they represent the slippery slope of society and the future of civilization here

itself and i don't think people are talking about it enough yeah and i think the at the end of the day it's a tough thing is the people you have as an individual have to make the decisions you have to question things like i remember in portland you know when like what was going on earlier in the summer like the protests and stuff like that and then i like read something and someone was saying oh this is only just like one little block here it's not like the whole city's burning down it's like when i i'm in new york in march it's like i talked to a prospect like you're in new york how are you okay like no oh yeah there's bodies just falling from the sky like it's not as bad as you like it's not as bad as you think like and i was in dc for when trump got inaugurated

i remember there's like a famous photo of a trash can on on fire it's just like people in dc are burning the city down you know what it is it's a freaking trash can there's a hundred photographers just waiting for like the two people in mass just do something and then it's just how quickly it's a freaking trash can there's a hundred photographers just waiting for like the two people in mass just do something and then it's just how quickly it's like my parents don't know technology but they get that image it's like dc michael are you safe it's like mom i walk by that like it's a joke like it's just like so much of this stuff is just what you context yeah context and it's just taking a step back like huh is is DC burning or is it just easy to get the clicks and the fear like this

and anything like that? And I think it goes back to just like, people just want to make a quick assumption. It's like, oh, this is right. This is what it is. Damn, the city's falling apart. Like, let me take a step back. Is it?

Is it? And it's just, it's easier to just not do that extra step of fact checking. And I think there's a thrill to it. You go down these rabbit holes of just finding and discovering stuff. I think it's just you got to be curious at the end of the day and challenge yourself. And people just don't do that.

It's rapid response PR culture. Yeah. Starts at the top. Look at, I mean, all the State of the Union addresses in our lifetime. Right. Probably since the beginning. I was born during the Clinton presidency. So probably since the beginning,

it has been a practice that whoever, whatever party's in power, Democrat or Republican, president speaks, and then the opposite party gives a State of the Union response. Right. How do they give a response? And I know like the speech is given to them like an hour before the speech.

How do they have that long and coordinated and detailed of a perfect speech response right after the fucking speech was just made and they're reading it from a teleprompter so it was written for him ahead of time they're fucking planning already preconceived notions into what's going to be said and why they have to disagree with it and And it's a power thing. Like we have created a structure that incentivizes people in power, in government at all levels to have to do that because we don't have term limits outside of the presidency. And there's a whole bunch of different places and areas of expertise that people can go into. So they make a career out of it. And they go from this office

to that Congress to this Senate to that cabinet or whatever. And they're just constantly moving around and gaining more and more power and more and more experience and more and more political currency. And when you do that, you disincentivize these people to act on the common good of beliefs, whether it be something that truly represents their constituents or something that they know, given the situation that was just read to them, is something that they need to stand up and draw a line here and say like, hey, this is wrong, or hey, no, we really need to do this. And what I mean by that is, because that's a little bit, that's a little bit complex how I said that. When you are constantly worried about what a decision means for the next point of your career, like even Trump, he was in an election year with a pandemic.

You don't think that half the decisions being made, he was judging based on what is my electability in November? Of course he was. That's not good for the people. That's never good for the people. Right? And look at that across every single office. These people are figuring out how they're going to last to the next generation of their election

and how they're going to keep their power or gain it. And now look at it from the unelected official side. You look at it from the central banks and reserves. These people make careers, whether it be literally on wall street and running in the elite circles and moving to the next thing to moving around different treasury departments or whatever you want to say monetary policy summits and groups and forums and literal like federal banking reserve jobs and stuff like that in government these people are making careers

out of that so if you are the head of the fed for example and an economic situation comes in an unprecedented economic situation which always happens at some point in federal reserve chairmen's whatever is your response going to be well let me look at the greater long-term good here or is your response more likely to be i need to save my ass because i don't want to lose my job and then lose all my other future jobs out of it it's going to be the latter because you're a human being and you are going to act in your best interest. So I don't care what Federal Reserve Chairman you look at it, whether it's who we have right now, Powell, Yellen in the past, Bernanke before that, Greenspan before that, all the way down to Volcker. All these people are acting like, how do I keep things afloat on my

watch, right? Now, I'm using just the Federal Reserve example here, but this applies to people in Congress, people in Senate, people in agencies, whatever. When they do that at the Federal Reserve and then they go to print money, that's their outlet. That's how they fix a situation because if we have a money problem, let's just put more of it out there. Oh, yeah, it's going to fuck us in the long term, especially if the next guy after me does it again when shit hits the fan. And the next girl after that does it again and so on and so on. That's not my problem. My problem is saving my job right now. So they do all this. And in the process, they fuck people in the long term.

And now we're seeing it on a grand scale. And we're seeing this huge move to Bitcoin and all that stuff. And that's a whole laundry room of a topic there but it is because people are waking up to the fact in this one example just going with it that oh my god these people are just acting in their own self-preservation interest because that is the game the game is how do i save my own ass not how do i save the long-term good of the people. So when you have all these levels of government across both of the parties, where these people are making careers out of things, across every agency, like I said, agency, Congress, Senate,

unelected positions, etc., you have created a system where when there's no term limits, they're going to act to try to last as long as they can. And now that also comes back down to society because the same voices get more and more power and have a louder and louder megaphone to then tell everyone else what they should be thinking and create tribes based on what their side of the aisle seems to have as a popular opinion at that time. So you can go far left and far right. If you're a Democrat or Republican. Regardless of whether you believe it or not. I know that's like a very long rounded tangent there.

But you see what I'm saying? So I got a question for you. So you're a little bit more passionate than me on this one. So I want to know your thoughts. You got me worked up Michael. Yeah I didn't even do anything. But I think for me. I'm the complete opposite of just.

This is my kind of matter of fact. I don't get as riled up as you because I'm just corrupt people. Powerful people are selfish. They want to do whatever they can to get what they, like, nothing shocks me. This doesn't, what you're saying doesn't shock me. So I'm past that part of my life where I'm just like, ah, I got to do something. Like, holy shit. They want their self-interest.

Like that. And it's just like the and I understand like I'm just one person so I'm not gonna change anything it's awful to say and I think that's a thing a lot of people don't want to say it's very just I'm gonna have this discussion that will change everything

there's stuff on a smaller scale that you can directly impact I'm a tangible guy what can I tangibly change that's what's gonna do it for me yeah my vote counts sure obviously but it's not like my vote just changed america no it's like you know what's gonna help the freaking guy that across the street falls down i pick him up that's more important than the direct area for me um what was i gonna say i'll tell you this i'm gonna buck now i was in student government all four years i didn't do shit i thought it was something good for the resume you know the biggest thing i cared good election season i was like oh yeah vote for me i just cared about for my thing and whatever

whatever i can that's a small scale and i it's the same thing i interned for a congresswoman in in dc a few years like in college i remember one of the things she just said is like if you can fundraise you're good fundraise and i remember because there was a time when she was going for a vote and she didn't even know what it was and she just asked him like what do i vote for this it's like holy crap they they don't even know what they're doing it's just such a it's it's fascinating it was very eye-opening to like be in the political sphere and they get caught in the echo chamber on their own yeah i mean you remember like when the tea party movement and occupy wall street rose up yeah i mean now we've seen maybe the remnants of occupy wall street bring take out that guy joe crowley or whatever where it was aoc replacing him right old school you know regular new york liberal replaced by more radical whatever she is

and you saw it earlier maybe with the with the tea party when i guess back in like 20 2011 2012 literally the speaker of the house eric canter got taken out and why did he get taken out he got taken out because of that mentality he's like oh i'm here i can fundraise great i'll be good he wasn't listening to what the people were saying because he was so stuck in that mentality sitting in his bubble in washington dc that he never bothered i think wasn't he literally like a virginia guy or he was like pretty close to dc like kentucky or virginia like somewhere right in there like literally never went home to his district and so then people said well fuck you and they voted him out of office and no one expected it but it's because of being stuck in his world and because like i'm the fucking speaker of the

house like how do i get to the next level how do i become the head of senate i have a question for you yeah how many i don't know the answer to this how many representatives are there? hundreds in congress? there's 432 I believe 432, 434 so the reason I bring that up is just

I love to bring up AOC which is one of 435 but it's just fascinating both sides how this one person is just the one that just people lose their minds over one way or the other and listen i don't know everything about her and whatever but i just i just think that goes back to just kind of like the gospel of one person it's just like she turned like into this cult figure and i i know there are certain things like she has a cool that's an amazing story like it's different than the person that's been in

congress for 50 years that's important that's i think it's a very important thing and it's not this this old white dude that's been there for 50 years i think that's very important we need more diverse people but i think it's just my it goes back to like any one person it's just like she's right about everything people are just sure there are things she brings that are important but there are definitely things from i've talked to people it's like she doesn't know what she's doing and i think it's just important for any specific person going back to like don't treat everything they say is right and but it's just fascinating in the sense of, like, you know, my parents are definitely more conservative.

I figured that out after college. And I was like, oh, you only watch Fox News 10 hours a day. And it's just like, watching Fox News, it's just like, the tone changes. Like, AOC is like their one person. It's like, ah! People just freak out like that. And it's just like, there's 400 other people.

Let's see the third congress woman in like yeah exactly but i think it's a fascinating thing it's just people of like how they can just fall into their their tribe it's like the aoc tribe is a thing where it's like yeah she is what she is she's a congresswoman in queens there's one person move on with my life it's like there are values there but this like everything she does people are just like holding on to a breath it's fascinating i think it is very fascinating that both sides see the the potential of like this is our star person and then the other side it's like this is the person that everything we're not yeah it's just a very fascinating like how it blossomed aoc understands the most important currency in the world attention yeah

she understands and it's not just her is that trump trump was that of course yeah exactly trump i mean right trump is the quintessential example i heard a story about him from the grapevine and i don't know if it's true but i believe it like it it's not a big deal it's not like a fact story it's just like what it is but he apparently had a few people over december 2014 okay and to his place like for a get like a dinner or something and so a couple of the guys get him you know they're they're they're in like the foyer talking or whatever and they're like all right fuck it we'll ask him and they're like no you're not really gonna run for president are you and allegedly what he said to him dead ass was oh i'm gonna run for president i know the media better than they know themselves i'm gonna suck all the oxygen out of the room and i'm gonna win yeah and i think about that

because i heard that story very early on i I heard that in like October, November 2015. I was like, whoa. And that's what he did. So it does support like what he ended up doing. Whether or not he said that or not, that's what he did. And so he got – they did math on it, but he got more free press just from being entertaining on TV that just drove him into people's homes i mean like i was all about it i mean i thought it was fucking i still think he's fucking hilarious but like that also then morphed my decision making like oh yeah that's the guy who just

says it like it is like i guess i gotta vote for him or whatever right and that's that's how we respond it doesn't make us smart or dumb it's just what's natural like we see it in the background like oh that looks like a good show yeah you know and so aoc regardless of her beliefs regardless of trance beliefs she does a lot of the same things and she does it very effectively on social media and i did you hear after the election day in november about like the internal call with the dnc and all the Congress people. Oh my God. So a lot of democratic congressmen and women were screaming at the DNC because they, they won their elections by very tight margins where that's not supposed to happen. And they were yelling about how they've gone so extreme. And like, this is, this is fucking crazy. This defund the police shit. Like basically like

everything IOC says is a fucking problem. We need to get rid of that and there was one guy i believe it was representative hakeem jeffries forget what state he's from but he asked the question he said do we want to be internet celebrities or do we want to get back to legislating and my whole thing is and i haven't checked it i need to go check his stuff but you can't tell me that on whatever his social channels are, in all likelihood, he's probably parroting or has parroted a lot of this stuff. Now, maybe it's his team doing it and he didn't believe in any of it. But he's still participating in it. And so he's asking that question. But you can't deny the fact that that's where the world is.

So it's not about being an internet celebrity. It's about getting attention. Like if you want to legislate, get attention attention on yourself and that is the second level to the problem though yeah because the attention what's the pareto law the 80 20 law the attention is where the highest 20 in this case the loudest 20 gets 80 of the attention and the loudest 20 is most likely to not literally just be the loudest by vocal cord decibels but by the loudest of how extreme the opinions are or how extreme the statements are on their level like that's something with trump like his statement forget his policies

his statements were so bombastic from day one yeah that it's like everyone had to listen to that right whether you hated it or loved it it's's just like a scientific – I don't want to say scientific as a non-scientist, but it's just in the sense of if there's a normal behavior and something's different, you're going to look to that. It's funny. I actually – a few months ago, there's like this two-hour clip of how Trump from when – like what the election looked like. It was very good. I'll send it to you. But it's just kind of like step-by- step of like him announcing it to all the debates and i remember you know that was 2015 when it was like serious and it was like oh trump's a joke candidate and i wasn't paying that much like serious

attention it was like all right him versus clinton all right this is getting ridiculous there's no shot and i was like all right let me watch the debate i just remember he was just so i've never seen anything like it just like the way he he was like a joke it was just it was savage it's crazy it was just fascinating i've just never seen anything like that whether you agree with it or not it was just like she she will she is the politician she'll what we're gonna we're gonna fight for justice like yeah right and but it's just like any side of the party even it's just even if you're like, this guy's a better candidate, but he's losing to this guy that just gives this guy a funny nickname.

Even if you're a better candidate, you're doing all the right things, it's just like, damn, that's what's working. There was a quote in a Politico article I will never forget. So coming into that primary season, jeb bush was roughly like the favorite right which is hilarious to think about now and jeb bush you want to talk about having no charisma no offense man i mean that guy that guy a nursing home's falling asleep in like a second and a kid's class falling asleep in a second so both extremes like he doesn't work. But when he when his campaign folded up, like embarrassingly after South Carolina in the primary season, Politico did a whole expose on what went wrong in the campaign, getting end of the article like to close off the article said you know trump did this low energy jeb thing and it wasn't even like rhyming but it just it was memorable he tagged jeb as that and that's not what that's not how we know jeb i mean the

guy's a machine in their eyes but in the public they're seeing this bumbling guy talking and he seems like his eyes are half shut so it's stuck and he goes that nickname literally killed us and it came from a guy who rode a fucking escalator down to his campaign announcement and that was the end of the article and that i remember looking reading that article and looking up and going oh my god it is all about how you package it yeah all about how you own it and package it it goes back to like i guarantee you that was probably a twitter headline someone that's not even following the election it's just trump calls jeb bush this it's just like well that's the headline people don't want to take that next level they're just reading the headlines it's like jeb bush is this not gonna fact check not look at anything else, but the headline says Donald Trump told me this.

That's what he is. Damn. Not a president I want based off that headline. Yeah. Is it fair to him? Probably not. But it's just like that's, it's fascinating. Just like that's just another example of people people how quick headlines are made and assumptions are

made off those headlines and we choose we still have an archaic two-party system where people in all likelihood are going to vote in one line or the other line right right and think about like life and how many things have to happen and we should talk about that i love your perspective on this stuff so we'll switch up to that in a minute but all these decisions we have to make every day and all these struggles at different points in our lives and our responsibilities our families our friends our jobs whatever it is when the fuck do you have time to even know the name of whoever your assemblyman to the council of whatever office it is in the borough of wherever you live what what their name is right

let alone what their party is or what they stand for or what they're trying to do you don't and yet we go into these elections where everyone's like get out the vote and i'll admit it too i've gone in there before and voted and i haven't done this the last couple times i literally like just don't vote for positions i've never heard of or people i haven't heard of right but at the when i first was voting when i was like I guess my first election was when I was like 19 or 20 or something like that you know I went in and voted and then I walked out and I'm like who the fuck are any of the people I just like I knew that the top the top two positions there was very aware right who was anyone else and yet we're just trained to say, you're on this team or that team.

Yeah. And you got to vote. Make all the decisions. Yep. You can never expect people to have the time of day. They already got to conquer enough things in their day. You can never expect them to be like, you know, I think I'll study my assemblyman positions tonight. It's a crazy expectation.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's something that it's kind of at the end of the day those people probably are going to impact your direct life a little bit more than the person at the top of the top of the ballot that's the crazy thing it's like wherever you are locally that's what matters and i think it's just something to yeah our days and it's just like a perspective look at us now we're 27 28. i i've discussed with my parents talk about politics or something it's like michael your prior is going to change if you're married you have kids totally different perspective yeah you're not going to care about this trending topic when you have a it's just such a different like

i can't even imagine like different points in my lives like something even four years ago isn't as important to me now. My values are going to constantly change. I hope I'm not the same person the rest of my life. That's just, to me, a sign of no growth. You want to learn more perspectives, understand more things, grow, be curious, and it's just something of, like, understanding. I think that's

what frustrates me of, like, how can someone vote like that? Or how can someone think like that? It's like, hmm, they aren't the same person as you different age there's different experiences in life how can you expect someone that grew up differently than you to think the same like someone in the rural part of a farm is going to think different than someone in downtown philly that's just their priorities their day-to-days there's different things do you think someone from philly is going to give a fuck about farming legislation no do you think the farmer will yes so it's just like understanding like how can you you know choose this over that it's like

at the end of the day people that's what i love you have the freedom to vote it's your vote that's like the one thing corrupt or not i'm sure there's corruption and stuff going on but like that's something doesn't matter how rich or poor you are that's the one thing everyone has the opportunity to do besides some criminals and there's issues with that as well but it's just something that's like the one thing you can exercise like whatever you think you can vote selfishly i want the best for me and there's nothing wrong with that or for the betterment of people it's just like you can decide that and you shouldn't punish someone based off of their decision. Mike, I agree with everything you just said. And we could go down the whole tangent

of what a vote counts for. And we've talked about it a little bit, but it's, you're hitting on something or you hit on something towards the beginning of that That's actually way bigger than what a vote is or what it means and you said I want to be Curious about things and you kind of hit this earlier, too I just don't know if you use those words and every time I hear someone say this it Perks me up because we have lost that in society. We have lost this curiosity and this sense of asking questions and trying to dig deeper. And we talked about it earlier with empathy and understanding another person's point of view. But I think it's all related because, here's what I mean by that. When we look at our lives now and how much – how many resources we have in modern times and things we have access to and therefore just total relaxation that we can divert to, we get comfortable.

And part of getting comfortable is then also getting very comfortable in what you think and therefore how you feel and then what you then project to the world by telling other people and defining yourself based on whatever it is you think right now and in that whole answer like you even talk about your parents saying you're going to change and no you're definitely going to think this at some point that's even closed-minded because they're saying like yes your mind's going to change on some stuff which they're right about but they're already setting and i'm not ripping your parents everyone does this they're already setting the expectations of hey you're probably going to think this when you get to that age as if your experience and your worldview and understanding is definitely going to match the box

of what theirs did and this is what we do to people yeah and one of my favorite things about you is the fact and i've I think I already said this, but the fact that you are the guy who asks questions and doesn't define anything. And look, you're in your 20s. You're obviously having a lot of success now. It wasn't always that way. Early on, you really had to grind and you had a job out of college that you hated. But you've managed to keep that sense of curiosity

the whole time and understanding that like i don't know what i don't know how do you do that because i even struggle with it sometimes in the sense that it's like well should i just certainly stand for things and then go from there or should i just say like oh i'm going to change my mind all the time yeah i think it's just i have an irrational confidence in myself even when things aren't going right i think i'm always going to figure it out. I think that comes from my dad. It's really just it starts with him in terms of his job is a very unique one of insurance for the hurricane industry. So it's a very unique and some years it's great, some years it isn't.

And I've just seen from him, you know, in times we're struggling, it's just he's the type of person that's never freaking out or like, whoa, it's great, some years it isn't. And I've just seen from him, you know, in times where we're struggling, it's just he's the type of person that's never freaking out or like, woe is me. It's just like, I'm going to figure out whatever it takes. There's been times where he's like had to be an Uber driver just to make money. It's just like to see him just not complain about that. For me, you know, my situation of just not really having the money starting off, just I'm going to figure out no matter what I am. And it's just no matter what the situation is, like I trust myself in anything

in the sense of, I don't know everything I'm going to network. I'm going to utilize things will work out because I will make sure it happens. That's just that irrational confidence in anything. Even if I'm in a room, I think like, I know what I'm talking about. Even if I don't, it's just, it's just for me, it just, I will figure out situations. Like things will work out because I will find the weirdest way. Like the routine might not work for someone else. And for me, I'll just do whatever it takes to just be successful. And it's just figuring it out for myself. And you were saying kind of the point of like your parents that in four years, your mind's going to change.

I think there's so much for people our age. It's just who you are. You're finding yourself out. It's just like the confidence thing of who am I? Oh, by 26, I should be married. By 30, I should have a house. And people do that. People are like, I got to measure myself versus the person next to me.

I don't do that at all. I'm happy for you. Good for you. That is your life i will never compare myself no i i want to change that because i i always am comparing myself in the sense of i think it's important to observe what's going on around you like yeah i'm not gonna wear clothes because everyone else is like yeah there's a line of like crazy like you got you got to do the bare minimum there but i think you, I live my life my way.

And it's just, for me, it's so peaceful to know that, of like, I'm confident in the things I like, the people I surround myself with, the values I have. While I know that I'm always learning and growing, but I'm just confident, like, that's what I am. And you're learning and growing through constantly putting yourself in new situations so that the things you like and the people you're around can change.

Yes. Like, I just know I will never have a routine. I hope not. Like, that scares me. That scares me of, like, the day of, like, every day is the same thing. I talk to the same people. I do the same thing. That's, like, I'll get, like, my run.

Sometimes I'm doing the same path so many times. Like, you know what? Let me just do something different. Because it's just, I need something different. I need a different experience. Because I look at it not just of the run. Oh, you know what? For running, new path.

I just discovered a new part of the city. Something like that. That's the way I think. It's like, this changed. What's the positives of the change? Instead of just doing back and forth, the same thing. Go to the same restaurant, back and forth. Yeah, it's so rewarding.

And there's always, even though it's irrational confidence, I still get nervous as shit. I get nervous as shit talking to you right now. At first, it's like, oh, it's my friend on the podcast. But I'm still like, how are people going to perceive this? What does it mean? And then you just talk. And so many of these experiences you look back on you're like that's what i was freaking

out about are you kidding me and it's just so rewarding i'll give you you know i had a great time at bucknell and i had a lot of great experiences met a lot of great people and i think for me if you ask me what my favorite experience was out of college i would give you something completely different than now and i think for me now um favorite experience was out of college, I would give you something completely different than now. And I think for me now, when I was in the student calling group, there is this, you know, a girl there that asked me if I wanted to accompany her for the black student union fashion show. And in the moment, kind of what my mindset was, I'm like, I said, yes,

but I was like, do I want to do this? In the sense of like, I was just like, we have but i was like do i want to do this in the sense of like i was just like we have fraternity parties i just want to do that routine it's like i i i i was like do i want to do something different than like we got a party it's like that's what i want to do and then i'm thinking that's such a stupid mindset like there will always be parties it's such a unique thing so i remember you know it was something like a lot of people at this fashion show, a lot of them were in the student calling group. And that, for me, was a very interesting experience of, you know, Bucknell, you look at the statistics, it's a very white school. Like that, it's very, but for me, the student calling group was a lot of people of different backgrounds and, you know, opportunities at Bucknell that gave different perspectives. And it was just a very, Bucknell didn't have maybe the biggest melting pot,

but the student calling group really did. And I remember going to the first like dress rehearsal and it was a lot of people I knew, but it was the first time I felt like the outsider was like, I'm stepping into something that I'm the only white guy here. Like, it was just like, whoa,

this is, I don't even say uncomfortable. It was like, I'm stepping into something that I'm the only white guy here. Like, it was just like, whoa, this is uncomfortable. I don't even say uncomfortable. It's like. That's okay. Like, in that way, it's uncomfortable. The definition of uncomfortable is being, and people are going to call me out because they're going to look up the Merriam-Webster's Dictionary, but let's just call it high level. It's being or being in a place or in the act of something that you do not normally do and feeling a certain way about it. Yeah.

And it's okay to say that about that. Yeah. And it was just the type of thing like within – it was just – obviously, it was a great time. I had so much fun. Everyone was so nice. Like, of course, it's just – I'm going to remember that experience so much more because it's just something so different. And what was my reasoning for not doing it? Because it wasn't what I was already doing. That's just a stupid reasoning.

You asked me to be on this podcast. And I'm like, in the back of my head, there's still that like, oh, I don't want to go two hours out of my way. Like my schedule is do these things on the weekend. This is different. I don't go to someone's house to do a podcast. And you know what? I'm going to look back like this is different i don't go to someone's house to do a podcast yeah and you know what i'm gonna look back like this is an amazing experience and i think it's just like those little things you start to do more and more it's just that's the part of life it's like that's the addiction

it's like this is a cool unique thing what's the next thing and i just learned from that and it's just it's just i just know i control this so it's So it's always going to continue. This is never going to stop because that's me deciding not to. Unless some act of God prevents me from doing things, I will continuously put myself in these unique situations and learn from other people. And that's just an exciting thing for me. I'm never going to be the most rich, successful person in life. It's like there's no point in chasing that

i'm happy with what i got i'm very lucky i got my health most important i got my family i have an incredible group of friends it's just like that network there just leads to just all these unique experiences me talking to you it's gonna be a whole different experience than another friend another opportunity what kind of what kind of night what kind of journey do i want experience i can like mix and match like i'm very lucky at that it's just so fun it's just finding yourself and being like comfortable trying new things out is just such a rewarding thing and i think it's just something i just encourage anyone to do and extrapolating on that that's one example you gave from college but you've i mean you move far away to go to college you went to a very different milieu you went from

hot weather to the middle of fucking nowhere up in the cold mountains well right and you there's all these little things that added up and you got used to not being used to shit yeah and so then you come out of college and you lived in dc you lived in new york like you've been around you moved companies and and one thing i really respected is you could make a decision you could decide like nope this isn't right okay i i've figured that out now what do i do not get stuck yeah not be in that situation where you're like rationalizing everything and you have student debt like you're you're not somebody who has it all made or anything like that like you don't have the world by the balls you got the same problems everyone else does but you found a way to just

kind of keep that perspective and and when i started this whole thing with like your curiosity that's how you attack the opportunities put in front of you in life and i i love talking to people like you about that because it's something that we all miss out on like i look at my own experience and then i and you talked about like comparison and having a healthy dose of it when we say like comparison culture is bad yes it is but there's still a level to which you can have a healthy comparison other people and like i stack myself up against you or i would and i would realize like damn like the last couple years i'm really falling short like michael makes moves he goes and does things he figures out something and then goes to the next thing based on the data and feeling he got and i'm sitting here finding a way to make an

excuse for everything i do and say well now's not the time or well, now's not whatever. And it all comes back to this bullshit preconceived notion of the plan, this life plan. You do this, then you do that. You go here, then you go there. You go to a good college, you get good grades, you come out, you start with this job, you work like a dog for two, three years, and you move forward, and then you do this, and then by age 30, you have the family and two young kids, and then by this age, you're on the golf course on Saturday morning with the boys. It is a hamster wheel. It is a bullshit sale. It is trying to make

you, it is trying to prepare you to be happy and comfortable in something that has nothing to do with what you actually want in life. And so one of the things that I had to get comfortable with that was new before I did this podcast in like the two years leading up to it was doing things on camera and getting used to like the concept of content and whatever. And so I ended up having to stop that publicly because of where I worked, which was like a whole thing. But I have a couple videos that I never got to release because of that, that I, when I'm having my moments where I'm like doubting stuff or like frustrated or burnout or whatever, I go back and watch them because it's me talking. And I am on record saying these things out loud. And one of them is from February 8th, 2019. It was from a meeting with my LLC. And we were recording the whole thing.

And I talked about how having X amount of money in a very backwards place that makes you feel a way that you don't want to feel. It may make other people feel great, but it doesn't make you feel that way. This is how it turns to misery. And it hits me every time because it's only like 40 seconds and i just for whatever reason i really nailed it and the second video which was from like april 12th 2019 so like two months later or whatever same era of my life it's like three minutes long and i talk about that plan and i lay out being an entrepreneur in your mid-20s and having a vision that's long term and knowing that like once you commit to something like that and it doesn't just have to be being an entrepreneur it has to do with like how you make career decisions and where you want to go it's different for everyone but once you

make a decision to really dedicate yourself to something based on like, hey, I know I like this or I know I love this and I can fucking do this. You are the only person that can control your destiny there and more importantly, control what you know you think about it. What I mean by that is the people who are around you who may want genuinely the best for you, your family, your friends. They may not understand what you're doing. They may not have a concept of it. They may think what you're doing is stupid. They may think that that's not how it goes. And it all comes back to the fact that it is not a part of the plan. That's how closed-mindedness happens. And this is what I didn't realize when I was making that statement on that video. You get into this cycle of just waiting for the thing that's next, like what I talked about.

And then suddenly you never make a decision for what actually can be next. You never end up finding your passions. You never end up changing your opinions. And you get stuck into this bullshit thing that society tells you is what you're supposed to do. And at some point, and I haven't been older, so I can't tell you this, but at some point, it seems like people wake up, whether they be 40 or 50. And now they got responsibilities. They got kids. They got kids going to college, whatever.

And they can't wake up. They can't be like, oh, shit, I should have done that or I should have gone after this. Instead, they got to say, fuck yeah now i am stuck and so watching people in their 20s and that's you know i'm having people of all different ages on this podcast but bringing guys like you who are in your 20s and have an understanding of this and navigating it gives me the reassurance to know that even if i'm doing something here that might be really fucking stupid starting a podcast which there's a million fucking podcasts out there and trying to get my name out there and get people's attention as if i deserve it like it might be dumb but the idea that like if i'm gonna go after it now's the time and now's the

time to double down and it's because i got to a point where i realized hey i would much rather do this than go to a desk and sit in a cubicle and do something that i hated every day even if i had the golden goose of getting a fucking salary out of it and be happy and be able to say I did, then look back and say, hey, I got stuck and I let myself get stuck. And that's the best feeling ever. Don't you realize that? It's just everything else will figure itself out.

You're like, I know what I want. And here's the thing. Let's use you, this podcast. I guarantee if you posted something, you're like, Hey, I'm going to quit my job, create a podcast.

You're going to get like, go Julian. Like, that's awesome. People support you. And then there's like, what the fuck's his problem? Like you just,

you just ruined everything for that. That happened. That happened. Sure. But then on the flip side, like, that's just like a normal, like, Hey, good for you. Like people just want to do that. And then on the flip side like that's just like a normal like hey good for you like people just want to do that and then on the flip side people are projecting of

like this is not the way i would do it so don't do that that's what people do but then the way you did this which was awesome because it was like what's julian up to then all of a sudden boom i'm doing a podcast i'm not just gonna talk about it here 10 i just dropped right now it's like all right you don't just have the people that were just gonna support you no matter what you had those people are like i'm good i'm i want you i'm happy for you but i want to wait and see how this goes it's like you just proved to me like you're serious this is your commitment you're doing it and it's just something that's just like once you get it you it's just like you're in control you control everything there's one book kills me i'm awful awful with remembering names.

It's something like The 12 Things Mentally Strong People Don't Do. 13. One thing that just changed my head is how you react to things. You can't make me mad. You can say something

like, oh, that guy made me mad. No. I hate to be like cliche like i don't believe in that shit but it's like i decide i decide to be mad based off what you said you could say anything in the world like fuck my mom it's like i'm deciding to get mad from that and it's just like anything like that i choose to react no one's making me do anything unless you're holding me against my will. It's just like that's – I control everything. Once you figure that out, it's such an exciting feeling.

It's like you want to do more. It goes back to just always learning, always being curious. There's so much out there. I follow my routines also. I'm in New York City. So much diverse food in the world. And sometimes I'll go to a casual food place. It's just like I'm sometimes a hypocrite.

And it's okay. I realize that. I'm aware of that. I'm not perfect. But there's still so much to learn. And it's just knowing that once you have this mindset of doing anything and you're doing it, it's just contagious. You want to keep doing it. You tell someone i'll use marathon versus the podcast someone's like run a marathon they would have no idea what to do let's start it's an eight i'll give you an 18 week plan

this week you do these mile miles running it's like the doing a marathon isn't just doing the marathon it's that progression the slow. One thing leads to another. This thing, because you did that, makes it easier. Podcast, you have to buy all the equipment. You have to plan. You have to do all these things. One thing leads to the next. And just for you, you're gradually, you're doing the podcast, but it took all these little steps.

I think it's just for people's ideas and plans. It's not just like do this and then you're there. It's just for people's ideas and plans. It's not just like, do this, and then you're there. It's the progression, and people fall apart in that period, or they're not sure what to do. Yeah. There is something related between mental toughness and comfort. Inversely related, I guess. Is that right? Yeah. Like the opposites. That's what I mean. And I find that people who have mental toughness are far more likely, literally, like

guaranteed to be people who are into consistency, into the long term view, into adjusting their opinions as factors change, and into getting after things that they're passionate about because there's something in them that's it's like a switch you you turn on and you say hey like i'm gonna go to work today and this this is what i'm about and it might be like you have a job somewhere like you do it might be you're going after an entrepreneurial pursuit have you ever read the the book war of art by pressfield phenomenal it takes like two hours to read and he actually talks about this and he's he's a writer by trade obviously and he talked about how he turned his life around to become this great author and be someone famous in that realm. And he realized when he was younger, like he wrote The Legend of Bagger Vance, which became a movie like that one,

he wrote all kinds of books, but he realized that he was wasting so much time worrying about what he was going to do when he used his time that he had no time. And so he literally labeled it and called it resistance. And he talks about resistance like an enemy. And so when he started doing that, he created a discipline with it. He created that mental toughness. He then created that consistency to say the resistance sets in every day at 6 a.m. when I go to start to write and then I don't want to. And I know that my best times to think about writing are between 6 a.m. and 3 p.m., not after, right? So I need to figure out how I'm going to sit down and be able to be locked in during that time. And once he did that, it started rolling out. There was clear, you used the word progression. There was a way for him to tangibly

measure where he was getting with his work and how it was then going to turn from this book to the next book to this sale to that level sale and like it's not about making things transactional and boxing in your whole life and saying like at this time i will do that thing and at that time but there is still a level of like organization that you need to be able to whether it's writing shit down or assuring yourself getting yourself in the zone every day finding that thing that that one thing. Like Kobe talked about it shortly before he died with Patrick Bet-David. He likened it to Maximus Desmus Meridius in The Gladiator.

He said, Maximus Desmus Meridius, he looks down in that dirt, he feels the dirt, and he goes, all right, game on. And that's what Kobe had his own moment where he felt the dirt and he could just kind of turn it on. And no matter what you do, whether you're in sales, whether you're Kobe fucking Bryant, whether you're a writer or a producer or whatever, everyone's got to find their thing where they mentally feel that dirt and then become that person and become that professional and be able to actually see it translate into things. And again, bringing it back to you, I really like how you don't view yourself as like, this is my reality. This is the only place I'm going to be. You know what? I'm going to make a future out of this. I'm building my 401k here. I love Stella. And I'm not telling you to talk against Stella. you do i mean it's pretty

clear you love this company but you look at it like hey i don't know what's next right like i'm i'm making progress off of the last place i was but i'm looking at this like well how much progress am i now making over the next month or next two months or three months and then what can i do from there and you're not closing the door on your future in your 20s that's a beautiful thing that's a beautiful trait to have and i i want to go to that other point about people boxing them in with these schedules and stuff and i think that is such a for it scares me like that's just it's a lot it goes back to like people they want to feel good about themselves it's just a confidence thing it's like oh if i want to do this diet i do these 10 things eat this sleep at this time i do xyz yay i did everything the way

i'm supposed to it's like that's so stressful because it's like if you don't do these 10 things you're like my day isn't right like everything will be fine like i'm someone i eat pretty healthy but i'm not like one of these like oh i love myittles. I love a burger and I eat plenty of pizza. I love, like, it's just like, oh, you're a runner. It's like, you should eat healthy. It's like, yeah, I'll have a cheat day. Like, I don't think about like, oh, Sundays are my cheat day. It's like, I'll cheat day.

I'll eat whatever I want. Like, I don't, I have a structure, like certain meals. I'll have certain meals. But I know there's flexibility because life isn't just like, I'm planning on Sundays. Like, Thursday has to be this dinner. But also I understand based on my situation, I don't have a family. I have that flexibility. I understand that.

It's a little different if I'm a father. I have three kids. Like, you know what? I'm just going to change up the meal. Like that can't happen. So I understand there are certain. And you know that. Yeah.

I have the luxury now. Like believe me. It's going to be fascinating. Like, you know, the priority. I have the luxury now. Like, believe me, it's going to be fascinating. Like, you know, the priority for me is myself now. And there will hopefully be a time where it's not me. And that's going to be something it's like,

I guess everyone says it's, you don't know until it actually happens. But for now, that's the whole thing of like, live it while I can, whatever. This is the most freedom I'll ever have. The most,

the time, time is the thing. Time is the thing. Time is the thing. It's just like, you asked me earlier, it's just kind of, oh, I don't drink coffee or tea. How do I wake up? It's like, I just wake up. I just have to.

I love that answer. I just got to do it. That was a direct quote. Yeah. I just hate coffee. I don't like the taste. I just wake up and then people are like, how do you do that?

No. People could, you just do it. I think that's like, even, it's such a dumb thing to like hold up on. I don't know. Well, you take acid every morning, so that's a little bit cheating. We don't drug test Stella. I'm kidding.

He doesn't. He doesn't. He doesn't. But no, but I think – man, yeah. It's just being comfortable with yourself. It's just such a – it's exciting and fun. It's just, you know, every day is different.

Like, I'll tell you the thing I did last year, the goal I did every day. I, before I went to bed, I wrote like notes of like things that happened that day. And then it was the coolest thing ever to just go through the notes of every day. What happened first off?

It's just like, Oh, that kind of like a diary, like a little bit. Yeah. In a way. It's great. Yeah. And the cool thing was you know the there were highlights for sure it's like i had a friend's like zach's wedding or going to like my first boxing match like just

these very unique things yeah those are great everyone has those peak things and it was also important like there were days that were shitty it's like i felt shitty nothing happened it's okay to understand that everyone has that too but then for me it's those middle days the mundane the routine nah but i found like a fun fact that day or like that guy had a pig in tompkins square park and that's a thing in new york but it's just like little thing like you know what that little thing happened today that person like waved at me like you know the little things that mean nothing they're not going to change your trajectory in life like you know what that made my day a little bit better it's like the appreciation of those little things in life it's the mundane it's gratitude yeah yeah it's just being very fortunate of what you have i think that's such an important thing of that i'm i don't know it

really starts i'm very thankful for my parents of just instilling, like they never told me to do anything. And I think, I love my parents to death. And I think my dad's the biggest role model. I love my mom too, but obviously. But I think the thing I look at him for two things is the way he just treated everyone didn't matter. I went to a well-off private school,

and I just remember the thing is he'd always pick us up after running practice have like a 20-minute conversation with the security guard every day doesn't matter what your position your pay anything like that treats everyone the same it's genuine yeah exactly there's no there's no like i'm not getting a participation trophy look at me i'm talking with the security guard absolutely not like yeah that that's always a thing that i'm very lucky that i've been in networks of people that are very well off that the average person doesn't experience. I've been in some incredible, just like being around, even just the conversations to know it's like, oh, this person's dad is the C-level at this big company. Just even the privilege of like being in that conversation not going to

impact you but just to even know about that something that not everyone gets and it's just uh i don't know it's just really to just understand what's going on around you and just realizing how fortunate i am but like how to utilize this stuff it's i don't know it's just kind of like you want all these different perspectives. Like, sure, I've had those opportunities. The richest of the rich, there's probably a three degree separation. I can figure it out. That's just how it is.

Then I can go the other way. I've been in experiences. Like, when I first lived in New York, I was in Sunset Park, New York. And that was like. Where's that? Deep, deep Brooklyn. Like, by Bay Ridge. But it's just the type of thing

i've never heard of that see that's it's just like i'm like people from the new york jersey area don't even know where that is it's only seven miles away from manhattan and it's like that's like that's like a fucking that that's that's like six hours out of manhattan well here's the thing i'm the idiot that was like everyone's like why are you going to sunset park it's like oh it's only seven miles away like it's it's whatever like guys i'll just take the subway and then within within my day of moving there's chaos and i loved it it was just so fucking miserable two months in the summer the guy it was uh you know remember russia oh yeah right so it was someone of his friends like when his serbian buddies had the place and i remember my parents

are driving me there we're like deep in like Chinatown of Sunset Park he's like Michael where are we I'm like I don't know and then we park and within a minute he's yelling it's like you can't park there it's like 20 cars like honking and it's like holy shit I'm moving to New York this is the chaos it's like let's go let's go like that's you invited in yeah and it was just you know those two months i was just by myself down there and it was just such a different part of new york that even like new yorkers my friends in different parts they are like i'll never go there it's just already right there i'm having a different experience of that new yorkers i've been here for years i've had like this is

people they live down here like yeah this isn't ideal sure i'm like appreciative of like the cool opportunities but no shit i want something closer to my friends my job but for what it is for those two months i was like you know what i got two months here it is what it's an experience it's a different part of new york like it was just such a valuable thing right a little thing like that you know just understanding of like i came here not just to have a mundane new york experience that's half of like why you want to go to new york obviously a job, but New York still, it still offers so much. Like, it's just like,

oh, New York's dead. I think it's such bullshit because it's what you make of it. It's just, yeah. If you just do your job and you go to brunch and a couple of bars, like, sure.

That's, that's, you can do that in any city. You can do that in any city. Yeah. Challenge yourself to different things, different restaurants, different parts of the city different concerts like anything like that those are so rewarding you'll meet people put yourself in difficult uncomfortable situations you will only

prosper you're never gonna fit what's the worst that happens like i i go i see you go alone to i mean this like pre-covid you will go alone to like a weird concert or like a weird restaurant and you'll like send me a video of it. And I'm like, yeah, damn, this, this guy just doesn't give a fuck. Like he's just going to do it. I was going to just lead into it. Cause it was like, I had this period. I started just like, fuck it.

Why not? Cause there's, at first it was like, Hey, does anyone want to come with me to this thing? It was like, no. And then it was like, oh man, I don't want to go. Cause no one's with me. And then I don't know what it was that clicked, but it was like hey does anyone want to come with me to this thing it was like no there's like oh man i don't want to go because no one's with me and then i don't know what it was that clicked but it's like fuck it especially like a movie like people like oh i will never go to the movies alone i'm sorry it's a movie where you don't talk to anyone no one's gonna be like hey look at that guy in the back he's by himself he's by himself what a loser you go to a concert it's like i want

to pause the music that fuck by himself right no yeah because you a loser you go to a concert it's like i want to pause the music that fuck by himself like no yeah because you can tell that yeah like no one cares and it's just it could it turned into just kind of like me discovering musicians or different things that i liked and no one wanted to do it and i'm not gonna discredit anyone for not coming with me that's your choice you don't like sure whatever you know who's yelling at you when you do those things who the people who they think you're supposed to compare yourself to them just like they do to you on social media the people who are sitting in those cubicles and hate themselves but just don't want to say it they just want to take the picture and

show that they're in the fancy office and that must mean they're doing something right right the people who before they do anything whether it be post on social media or you know text into a group chat or whatever think about the social repercussions of all that yeah those are the people yelling out those things yeah and it's very easy to let that into your head and let it bother you and let it dictate your decisions but that's how you create this group thinking society where everyone turns into that person and everyone gets stuck and everyone comes up with the excuses I talked about earlier where you just say, no, this is why this is okay. Or no, you know what? I'll do that tomorrow. Or you know what? No, I can kind of stop whatever I'm doing right now because like, I'll make sure i do enough of it a week from now or whatever you create these outlets in your head to be able to say you have an out you create this this

mechanism that turns one thing into a habit and it creates this spiral that suddenly you wake up and go where did the last five years go and the whole time you're doing that you're sitting behind your keyboard or whatever and and calling out people like you who go out there and actually experience life yeah and we're in a weird time in the sense that you can't do a lot of that right now and i know you're still finding a way to do some things which is pretty amazing and like your your mind state mindset and mental health seems to be great but there's there's such a level of hypocrisy to the noise and what i'll say is that it is still recognizing that even it is still very very difficult to drown it out and ignore it it is still very very difficult to rise above it and not worry about what people think like i can sit here and and and say i don't and i will say i am

a lot better at that than i used to like i there's a lot of times where i just genuinely don't give a fuck but there are still times where i where i might have a few minutes to actually think about it and go fuck what what's this person going to think of that or what are these people going to say about that or like i don't talk with these guys what are they saying behind my back we're human yeah we're going to do that but over the long haul not allowing your your decisions to be dictated by that and not allowing yourself to get stuck in that rut and not recognizing that the reality you're in right now is not the one you want yeah that is where the strength rises to the top and the people who understand that are the ones who win in life do you do you

think for a second i don't know that there are people that follow me they're like what the fuck this guy just posts pizza every day you know muted me no shit i fucking love your instagram by the way yeah it's like i would meet the shit out of that guy too but that's the thing it's like i've used social for so long and yeah for so long i was like i wanted to take this picture and filter it this way it's like then it's just turning is like my shit is just chaos i just do what i want it's just such a like you made a left turn too yeah yeah no like really like like in college like because a lot of your personality was already in the right spot but you said it earlier like i was social media michael totally like you do the filter

picture do do the whole life. And then at some, I don't know when it happened, but it was years ago. And you just suddenly said, nope, not going to do that anymore. Like, fuck it. If I want to talk about this, show what favorite music I'm into, or like take this hilarious video that no one understands what it is, I'm going to do it. Right. Yeah.

It's for me. It's for you. Yeah. It's just fun. It's just like, I love to, it's like the scrapbook of life. Like my phone has thousands of just dumb pictures of, I could take – I'm going to do this. Like I'll just show you. I'm just going to take a picture of my foot and I'm going to enjoy that because I think just for the –

I'll look back on a plane and be like, why did I do it? Oh, because I just did it in the middle of a podcast. Like so stupid. And it's not – And by the way, it's not like a narcissistic thing either. There are people who like, hey, check out my toenails or like look at that. You not and by the way it's not like a narcissistic thing either there are people who like yeah hey check out my toenails or like look at that you're just like fuck it like all right that's funny yeah i'm self-aware to that like i know there's stuff i say it's ridiculous

like there there's a level of like okay what are you saying but then it's just it's just i'm having fun that's what it is for me in life i do some dumb shit because i want to make sure the people like for me my i'm a people person i want everyone to like me of course but also for me in life i do some dumb shit because i want to make sure the people like for me my i'm a people person i want everyone to like me of course but also for me it's it's good that you admit that yeah 100 no because i truly but also it goes back to like it's a genuine like i want to learn from you people love talking about themselves so i'm always for me i was always like the kid at the table like in high school like just sitting there and just listening everyone's like oh i like him because he doesn't say anything, so he lets me talk.

You learn a lot from that. But also, just being comfortable with yourself and figuring out what it is that's important for you. And figuring all that stuff out. And I just forgot what I said. This is hard. No, it's all good because we're really like, we're touching a million things right now.

But these are all relatable. They are all applicable. And look, I can't talk to a guy who's 45 or 50. Like, I don't know. I'm not there, right? And you have inherently different perspectives and different responsibilities at that time. We've covered that. But when you're looking at people who are in those decision-making times of their lives

where they also have fewer responsibilities and they have more freedom to pursue their dreams and go after things, let's be honest. You're looking at the people who are in their late teens into like their early 30s that is the strike zone and we are in the middle of that strike zone right now and there are so many people right now who may even know that or tell themselves that but forget it and just assume like hey that opportunity is going to be there i won't worry about it and that's the thing man like you said it earlier at some point in here it's time and time never stops moving and you only have the moment in front of you for as

long as that moment's there and i heard there was some production that one of my clients did and then the goose tony sir goose i got involved with oh. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he's unbelievable. Just amazing, amazing guy. But he talked about how he's collected hourglasses for years and years and years. I never heard that before. I never heard of him. You're saying like he had physical – Literally collects them. And he talks about – and, you know, he's such a fun-loving, like, total just relaxed, but, just relaxed but in-your-face kind of North Jersey Italian kind of guy.

But he talks about these hourglasses and he said the reason that he collects them is because they show him how time moves. And they show him how limited it is and how much of every moment you get to just live life to the fullest with the people you love and do the things you love is is so fleeting and that you get this one opportunity you know like m&m said i got one shot one moment whatever like that's what it is and we in life just we get into these time periods where we're like you know that'll that'll be there in the next decade or like you know one day i want to start a company or one day I want to do a podcast. When? Yeah.

When? When are you going to do it? And it doesn't mean like, I think we also have this participation trophy mentality when it comes to this. And it's not even like our fault sometimes. We just don't realize it. We think about things and we just assume like, all right, well, as long as I just like start it, like it'll go. No problem. That's not how it it goes if you're starting a business if you're taking on a job that's way outside of anything you've ever done if you're an entrepreneur if you're going after

trying to run a marathon or something like that or train for whatever it is that's new that you've never experienced before it doesn't go like this. And if you're not, if you're listening and not watching, I'm moving my hand perfectly, like straight up in a straight line. It's not like that. Life is like this. It's all around.

It's up and down. And you have these times where it's like, well, this was the dumbest fucking thing ever, or I'm terrible at this, or this is never going to work. You have those moments. You have that self-doubt. You have those times where you fucking land flat on your face and something doesn't work and you got to move to the next thing but in order to actually be in that moment you have to keep

going to get to that moment and that's what people don't want to understand they just think like okay if i felt like i'm stuck and i want to go do something new i'll just go do it and then like oh it'll take care of it. No, it's going to take time. And that time is going to be fleeting, but it's also going to be, it's going to throw everything at you and how you respond to it and how you make yourself last through all the defeats. That's what's going to put you over the top.

And you know what? It's also not guaranteed for sure. It might not happen. I think that's the people put this vision of like, I I'm struggling right now. If I do this thing, that good thing will cancel this out. This isn't like i i'm struggling right now if i do this thing that good thing will cancel this out this isn't like a math problem if like you do one good thing whatever you're struggling with they cancel each other out it's a learn it's a continuous learning

experience and i think it's like even if you have everything right you know like i'm motivated i'm gonna take action i'm not gonna just give up the first time and if it fails repeatedly and then you then you're like, damn, I thought I did everything right. I'm a failure. It's like, no, that's a learning opportunity. Try something new. It's just continuously being honest and evaluating with yourself. I think it's just, it's a constant feedback loop of yourself. It's just always checking yourself where you are now from a week ago, two weeks ago, two weeks in the future is always going to be changing. It's exciting. It's exciting stuff. And I just look at it for anyone that's just, there's no right answer.

Whatever it is for you is not going to be for me. It's just like we just find these generic themes that will solve all of our problems. You grew up differently than me. I grew up differently from someone else. It's just like all these little factors that aren't accounted for impact how we live and shit like that it's constantly growing people change it's just it's just i think people are just more comfortable just putting labels on everything to feel better about themselves and it's just not doing that is just I think so important and just you know figuring everything out your way it's your story the same society that sells you that

bullshit plan and tells you how everything goes is the same one where people publicly now have the platform to yell back out against it and say that's bullshit and then out of the same part of their mouth say that whatever they think and how they now put it is how it needs to be they create the same sin from the opposite end and it's it's it's in everything it's in every part of our culture and it's really funny to me because you say like i think you literally said they're like it's not one size fits all or whatever and that that is the fucking truth man just because the way that you outline your day and the way that you went after this one thing doesn't mean that the person going after the same kind of thing is

gonna outline their day the same way or outline it all we have different parts of our brain that some of us have a bigger left part a bigger bigger right part, a bigger front part, a bigger back part. I forget all the fucking names of the brain, but you understand what I mean. And yet we go around looking for that one thing, that one quote or that one short video to hang on to and be like, that's it. I hate that. That has all the answers for me. And unfortunately, it also sells because our attention spans are short. So we're looking for the quick bites. We're looking for

the people that just have all the answers. Now, there is a part of it where you get the inspiration from people who say things. And it's like Bruce Lee said, you take the best that makes sense for you and then you discard what doesn't, right? You be able to do that and then you also have to be honest with yourself you have to be like well what am i good at what yeah what is possible here that's impossible is a funny question because you want to say well nothing's impossible okay fine but what is what's going to give me the best opportunity is it this thing or is it that thing or is it that thing and so many people never even get to that point because they get paralyzed in the 20s hamster wheel where they're figuring out the world and then they think oh this is just how it's supposed to be that's what i'm supposed to do they're just looking up

quotes they're just like let me find these 20 quotes these 20 inspirational videos like that's me it's just like that's why like you even said like that bruce lee like i don't know what you just said because i don't live by quotes i don't live by a little short video yeah when i was a kid that's a little bit hypocritical i just that one i think is very broad and in concept i i think it's right but if i just said oh that's how that has all the answers right then i'm an idiot for sure yeah and it's it's just you know as a kid i remember before like a cross country race I'd watched, I have like one video I'd save. It was just like, Ooh,

get me amped up. Like, sure. Yeah. Then that's okay. Right. But, but it's just,

you know, like quotes and stuff like that. Sure. I guess this is like maybe me being hypocritical because it's something that I don't do. I'm not going to say it's wrong, but I also look at it. The reason why I don't do it is because I'm gonna read this quote oh cool I'm fixed like that's I get it like uh whoo I'm a better person now yay I saw this quote on tumblr

I am I'm fixed like shit like that it's just for me it's just I I don't I think it's kind of keeping level-headed going back to the news or anything shocking or anything sad like i don't think i'll ever get too excited or too down on myself one way or the other like there will be highs in my life and there will be lows but it's just like how you respond to all of that like a constant like you know what i expect that but also i I don't know what to expect. You could make it scary for you or you could make it exciting. I try and keep it more positive of like, again, I trust myself. Whatever the situation is, I will figure it out.

And it's just that I don't have the answer yet. What's going to happen in a year? I don't know. I don't have the answer yet. I don't have the answer yet. And that's okay to say. It's okay to say. And it's just like once you know that, it's just a good feeling because it year? I don't know. I don't have the answer yet. I don't have the answer yet. And that's okay to say. It's okay to say. And it's just like once you know that, it's just a good feeling because it's like I don't know it,

but I will get there eventually based off of these behaviors, based off of, you know, a different – a new show I watch isn't going to change my life, but that show, different perspective, learn a little bit more, meet someone else that has the same interest. They might know someone just because you want like these little, like my brain operates like that also. It's just like this little thing leads to that. And it doesn't make any sense. But when you look back, it all does because you, it goes back to you. What do you want?

There's not someone else's plan. This isn't someone's telling you to do. This isn't their timeline it's you being comfortable of what you want to do and challenging yourself and it's it's your life you say you say this isn't going to change my life i love that you use that phrase in there because what does every influencer try to sell you or everyone trying to make tries to sell you i'm here to change your life i'm changing life no you're not yeah and and you know what that's not even fair to say some people genuinely end up doing that sure but genuinely the people who lead with that and have to tell you they're doing it very rarely are there are definitely some exceptions but

they very rarely are they're they're in it for the money to be able to make you feel inspired or whatever and and trade off of it but in order to have your life changed you say like it's not one quote or one thing and that's not to then press down and say oh so you shouldn't look at quotes if that's what gets you off or it you shouldn't watch that video that you really like that's not the point the point is that can't be the one thing I remember like Tupac said in his life. He said I And he was it he was a wild wild guy It's a brilliant guy like my favorite artists of all time and someone who? Was just so incredible in a lot of ways had his flaws was very open about him

But he put everything at the surface you always knew where he stood and he talked about i'm gonna get the exact quote wrong but he's like i'm not saying i'm gonna change the world but i guarantee and this might have even been too far but he said but i guarantee you that i'm gonna spark some of the minds that do. And what I liked about that quote a lot when he said it is that he was talking about, like he literally put a visual on the spark and he said, that's what, that's all these things are. When I say things that make you feel inspired or when I say things that you're like, oh my God, that's so right. Or like make you feel a certain way and relate to me and relate to greater things in this world. That's not me suddenlyof you're changed that's me just putting the little seed of the thought in your head and then your job to go and build on top of it and then actually get to a point where maybe

you do do something that changes the game so i'll tell you when i there's a period of like this is post-college when i was like what do i want to do outside of work and i wrote a couple articles like one of them was about going to the movies and stuff by yourselves and i published that i remember someone i haven't spoken to in years it's just like i really like your article like that's like you're so brave for doing that i was like well thank you but it's i'm not any special i'm not doing anything you couldn't do already one time i went to the church of scientology in dc like come on yeah it was just wait wait wait hold on i'm not letting you off there you how do you get in there dude so anyone can go like what yeah so what it what it hopefully you know the scientologists don't listen i want everyone to listen to this podcast, but not the Scientologists.

Cause they, they're going to come get you. They'll come get me. Tom Cruise coming after you. You know, I'm going to shank you in the back. Exactly. Yeah. Fuck you, Tom Cruise. Um, yeah.

So it's the type of thing in DC is it's like, oh, the, one of the original Scientology churches is in DC downtown. You walk there. It's just, it's right in in the it's not like some hidden spots like it's right there in like a main street and then uh you know this is me just like bored like reading about like well is it hard it's like they have like a little drop down appointment slot and it's just like you could just go there it's like you know what why not like this is all right so what happened? I get there

and I remember just the weirdest thing of walking there and it's just normal fucking people going there. A girl my age wearing a Harvard sweatshirt. She looked pretty normal. Normal ass people in there. But then when I get in there, I remember it's like, oh, I got an appointment

to get the experience. And she's like, oh yeah, sit down i was like shit clearly they have these bookings all day no one comes so it's like whatever so i remember i get taken to another room and the first thing is like all right hey thanks for coming michael like you know watch the video of the history of scientology so it was like this little theater i'm putting by myself just just to watch the the was it l ron hubbard that guy yeah yeah so so it was just uh pretty normal like the scary thing at the beginning was like

oh this is like not too crazy and then you know halfway through it he's like it's like a reenactment of the early 1900s and then he's like medicine's medicine's not real. I was like, oh, here we go. Here we go. And I was like, Jesus Christ. And it was just eye-opening in a sense of maybe not saying, how can anyone do this? Because there were things like, yeah. Why did you want to do that? I just thought it was interesting. It's just like, I was like, why not? This is such a unique. I was obviously making sure I'm not it was interesting. That's how it's just like, I, I was like, why not?

This is such a unique, like I was always making sure like I'm not going to die. Like I'm not going to just do, there's levels of the stuff I'll do. There's a risk evaluation. I was like, I still am not like a skydiver or anything like that still scares me. Maybe one time I was like,

all right, you know what? Whatever. And it, but then it's also like a learning experience of like how can people get into this? Like how can you do Scientology? Because I watch it. And it's just like people – it's definitely like targeting people that have low self-confidence.

It's like I can see someone buying into this of a support system and shit like that. They're looking for their spark. 100%. It's just like this is the thing. This is the community and shit like that. And then I remember they asked me after like, what do you think? I was like, oh, yeah, it was really, really interesting, like, this is the thing. This is the community and shit like that. And then I remember they asked me after, like, what do you think? I was like, oh, yeah, it was really, really interesting, like all this stuff. And then so the next thing I had to do is I take a personality test.

Then they bring you into this other room. It's like you have a scantron of like 100 questions, whatever, and like true or false. And the best part is then afterwards you have someone else. They almost put it like in a machine to like go over your scores. And I remember she was like, Michael, these are some of the worst scores. Like you need help. you have someone else they almost put it like in a machine to like go over your scores and i remember she's like michael these are some of the worst scores that like you need help and and like i'm like i'm not gonna the whole point i'm not gonna say that to everybody exactly i'm not gonna be like no no you're right i'm like yeah i i'm i had i did play up to it i'm not gonna be like you're

wrong like or else it wouldn't make any sense and then it was just fascinating just to see if like if i was imagining myself as someone that was looking for that spark of, you need help, we can help you. I can see how people can do that type thing. Instead of just saying, Scientology is crazy. Anyone who does it is crazy. There were normal looking people in there. It's not as crazy as you think. It's just an understanding of something that you wouldn't do. It's something that I'm still learning. I'm very stubborn in certain ways of like the way i think or the way i do things but then it's helpful i'm

still learning like seeing other people's perspectives is just so important and you know what i might be in the minority here but i can see how you all think like this i think that's an important thing to consider as well so yeah it was just a very unique experience like it was bizarre so fucking bizarre but it's just something that's like you know what that's just that was like i think that was the first kind of like yeah concert or movie by yourself yeah it's by yourself it's like whatever like this is such an obscure thing to even do i was like damn If I can just do this, I'm up for whatever.

I'm up for whatever. I think for me, going back to the friends I have, the family, I'm very lucky. I'm very fortunate. I think about that all the time. It's so important to me. I want to be someone that my friends

know I'm just always up for you need help with something share something you get an idea i got a friend who's a stand-up comic he's like hey can someone can i run a bit off someone's like yeah facetime me right now let's just do it it's just like being there availability is just i think a thing because it's just like what's my excuse not to yeah if i'm the other part of the fucking country of course i'm not going to come on your podcast but if i hadn't take a step back what was holding me back from saying no to you if you asked me to be on the podcast nothing substantial i'll make it work yeah if you want to do something you'll make it work that's so true yeah people people will find every reason to say why something can't happen and never consider why it can and the

fact of the matter is most things absolutely can happen i do it all the time too i'm like i know i could never do that or no i could never do this and like i try to check myself because we are that one thing we need to recognize we are all hypocritical i don't give a shit who you are we all have hypocritical moments every single day of our lives in some in small ways and then sometimes bigger ways but like one of the things is like yeah i get stuck in my zone of like well i gotta do this and take care of that i can't really do that and then it's like you look back and you're like i could have or like i could have tried that and you make yourself do that but there's like it's just

very ironic that you go to the church of scientology where it's this cultish you know closed-minded whatever and you did it as an open-minded guy who just wanted to see like man i want to see how they fucking get these people to do this yeah but have you ever read uh tribe by sebastian younger or junger i forget how he pronounces it you really put me on the spot with this podcast i promise i read books but i have not read that either no it's you know how many fucking books are out there i don't expect it well another that's also like a really short one but it's it's very effective and it's exactly what it sounds like he breaks down how throughout history as humans we are trained to have our baseline as having a purpose within a group of people who have similar goals and therefore

ideologies or thoughts or whatever and there's he raises so many amazing points in that book i love it there's a lot of things though that he hit on that i don't even know if he knows he did or like these cans of worms that he opened up that again i don't know if he knows he did but when i was going through it i realized because again like he's breaking it down from like the Native American days, BC days, like caveman days, like everything all the way up to now. And what he didn't say in there, at least that I noticed, was it gets you into the trap when you want to be a part of a tribe and therefore be a part of a culture, a way of thought, you feel that human connection. That's why you want to be there. And it makes you – like we all want to – even our introverted people in society, they still inherently want to be around other people and spread happiness to other people. They may just not know how.

And so when you go to do this, you think you're doing the right thing on all of it but when you relate it to today it's very dangerous and it's a slippery slope because it's so easy to form tribes you just go online you get in schools of thought you like one of my quotes that i've said a lot before that i try to watch now because i think some of the connotations are wrong is like i want to be around like-minded people or whatever i think that's very very dangerous i want to be around people of all different backgrounds like things i hate and things i love you know and everything in between just to like see what's what and that's what you do and so you are an outlier in the sense that all these people in society whether they they realize it or not, not all of them, but a lot of people, they get stuck in these tribal thoughts. That's the, it is a parallel to the term echo chamber. When we look at social media and when we look at like talking earlier about people think

this way, so they must think all these ways too. And that is what is such a weakness with us. And it's because we've lost a lot of the original things that put tribes together which was literally things like hunting for food needing survival and then therefore sharing in that experience of like oh my god we pulled it off like we provided for the women and children of the village and like the women and children built the homes of the village and provided this place for us all to live in happiness and now because we have access to so many different resources and so many different decision points and things that we can do we don't have to worry about that you know that's why kovat's like such a big deal too because god forbid like some of us die and yes like it's not

a good thing i'm not saying that at all but i'm saying like you know they they were worried about being mauled by bears you you know, 400 years ago. That's not that long ago in the context of history. And so we want to find these same tribes today that they did back then. But now with all the things that we can worry about besides survival and the simple shit, it leads us down these pathways of thought. It leads us down these pathways of, oh, well, I must have thought this. So therefore, robotically, I must think like this. It's like what Horo said, what's his name, Kozla, the famous venture capitalist, I think it's Vinik Kozla, I should know that, but very famous guy. I wasn't as familiar with him, but Horo really, really talked about him. If you subscribe to one political ideology, for example, you are essentially a robot. So think about how many issues there are that you're supposed to subscribe to when you do that.

What are the chances percentage that you agree with all of them? Probably zero. But there's a lot of people who then put themselves down to suddenly just assume they agree with all of them and then parrot it out. And so to see people who literally go outside the box and literally go go try to experience new things and new ways of thought even if they're fucked up like that it's refreshing yeah like i i feel it's just because of covid when you're just more isolated you're more aware of certain things so it's just people are sheep in the sense of it's like people on a schedule let's say there's a pot like in the news a shooting of a black individual and then i'll just know instantly what's going to

happen on instagram it'll be the same like 50 people post the same infographic of like this and then covid like this it's just like rb i don't know It's like RBG dying. It's like tragic for sure. And there's a lot like she's done for sure. But I instantly know it's just like, or like when Chadwick Boseman dies, I just know what's going to happen. It's like someone's just going to post like RIP them and then move on. It's just like, you don't really mean this. It's just like, I feel like I have to do this.

I feel like I have to input these like certain things as part of the schedule of like and i think it's like so people can look at things and interpret it differently so i always look at twitter of like people are outraged on twitter my example like i could tweet right now in all caps like fuck the president it's like michael sagan is outraged and we have on film me just like joking about it but how it could just say that got like 100,000 retweets. It'd be like, Michael's outraged. Like the whole world thinks Michael Sagan's outraged. When clearly I was just, man, fuck the president.

It's just like context. And it's just not to just, it's so quick to make decisions. People just want to, and I do it. We all do it. We all do it. We all do it. It's participation trophy and even in some level virtue signal culture. People want to feel like they're doing the right thing according to what they think the tribe expects them to do. Exactly, yeah. It's this – it is a death march towards the death of your ability to think for yourself.

And we've made that controversial now. We have made freedom of thought a controversial subject matter that is why people like jordan peterson are intellectual dark web controversial that's bullshit i said this earlier but that's exactly why they label him that way because they say like oh well he has the audacity to say hey let's rethink that. And let's actually talk about it. I might be wrong. Well, let's talk about it. And you know what you do?

Then let's say he – and he very well may. He says a lot of things that maybe his evidence isn't as good for and like you should disagree with. I don't know. I could probably think of examples if I looked at it, but you are more likely to see people not recognize that who support him because you have now labeled them and said, if you listen to this guy, you're an idiot or you're controversial or your beliefs aren't what they're supposed to be. And that's what we've done. We've said, this is what it's supposed to be. And the things that get loudest, the loudest trumpets, especially online that define whatever supposed to be means suddenly become the arbiters of what is.

And that is not how society works. That's what triggers me in the sense of – That's okay. Say it. No, for myself, if someone just puts a label on me or tells me what to do, like, you should think like this, that's the instantly I'm going to be like, no, no, don't tell me. In fact, I'm going to probably try this more because you you told me to or something like that but also i think sometimes you know as younger girls about like a class like there's no such thing as a dumb question or something like that and sometimes it's like no one wants to ask something and someone asks a question and everyone's like thanks for asking i was thinking

the same thing and i think that's something i've just been comfortable with myself to to do that more and if say i'm in a presentation at work or a social event or something and i'm like wait this doesn't sound right but then if they tell me they rebut me and they make sense of like you know what you make sense that's okay i just wanted to check i think that's okay i'm not trying to get take you out i don't have a vendetta against someone but if i feel like something's not up i have no problem saying it and if you prove me wrong good like that's okay like that's an okay process of like i i voice my concern. You give adequate response. I think that makes sense. I'm not always right. I'm probably more wrong than I'm right.

Like, that's, most people are. It's just, it all goes back to, I don't know, it's just fascinating. Just people are just not comfortable being uncomfortable. And just like saying, like, we don't know everything. It's okay. It's not the end of the world. It'll be okay it we have the option to be comfortable in today's society yeah they didn't have that option 400 years ago yeah they either went outside and and found a way to plow or shoot or with a bow and arrow dinner yeah or they starved and when we get i said this a few

minutes ago but when we get those resources where it's just second nature, what do we prioritize next? We prioritize things that are less important in the context of our survival. And this all goes back to it. But you – I mean, I don't know, like an hour ago, something like that, I think we started this whole thing talking about like your curiosity with stuff. And that's been a theme throughout this but you're literally talking about asking questions right there and how they're and i know this example so well how people be like oh i was thinking that but i didn't ask and why didn't they ask they didn't ask because they were afraid to why are they afraid to they they might be really shy and they might be on top of being really shy

they're shy about the fact that they're afraid that if they ask it people are going to judge them and think that it's dumb and and say fuck you when that might happen but you got to be able to and it's very hard to be able to say i don't fucking care what that guy thinks he's just putting his insecurities onto me to feel good about it and like it's very very very hard to do that but that culture has led to our lack of asking questions in society on everything it may happen in the classroom but it happens everywhere people don't question the status quo i think i have that in like the intro of this show where i'm like you know if you don't like the status quo start asking questions or

whatever which is so legitimate and there's i there was a quote from i don't know who it was just like a tidbit statement that this guy made but someone relatively known i saw it on my guy matt caminosh's instagram which i've said this on a podcast before but this dude like i think he's got like a thousand followers it's not not a big account. His Instagram is flames. Like his Instagram stories are unreal. The memes, the tweets, everything like incredible. But this guy was talking about how when you go around kindergartners, they're curious about everything. They're asking about everything. They want to know how this works and how that works and what happens.

And it used to be like that where you kind of continued that throughout life. Everyone wanted to know. Wow. and it used to be like that where you kind of continued that throughout life everyone wanted to know wow like you know imagine the first caveman looking at the fellow caveman i use this example all the time who managed to round the rock into this shape where you could roll shit imagine how much they all like went around and went oh yeah round rock like but that that's how they then got to the point where suddenly then they created a wheelbarrow that that could then carry stuff on on top of that rock and shit they got from one thing to the next but today what this guy was saying to go back to his quote was by the time you get to 12th grade like and it could be before them but then go from the kindergarten class and go to the 12th grade class no one's raising their hand yeah that's a

generalization but they're not asking these questions they're not doing something and what he said is that something tragic has happened between kindergarten and 12th grade in this country and we need to put our fingers on it and i will put my finger on it it is fucking echo chambers of thought that make you worried about what you say. It's just, I mean, that's the cherry on top of the cake for this Sunday, whatever, for this entire conversation about the loss of curiosity and the fact that we have to say someone like you is an outlier. Yeah. That's a lot.

Yeah, but it's fascinating stuff. And then I think about that, but then I just move on. I don't look at myself as an outlier because then it's just like, who is this group deciding that for me? Who is the committee that's like, Michael Sahagin is an outlier? There's no committee deciding. Yeah, that's fair. That's very fair.

Yeah, so I don't, you know, I want to say I discredit what people, my peers think of me. Cause I think there's a level of, I think it's important. I want a good reputation. It's just like, I, I believe that I'm a good person in general. It's just like that aspect of it. But I'm not going to be like, what is x think about me on a tuesday like it's just like this kind of like generalization because people are so busy everyone has their own life that's

what really helped me kind of thinking about the going to the movies or something by myself it's just you're worried the biggest thing is that you're just worried what other people think about you and i just asked someone it's like what do you what do you have for lunch today julian uh rice what do you have for lunch two days ago rice rice and uh chicken all right you're not uh if you're just gonna say rice every day this isn't you're not gonna help me with this example but a normal person maybe they have different meals every day and then by like the third or fourth day they're gonna be like i don't remember and it's just like think about it the meal is something you eat every day it's your thing you you don't even remember that about yourself so how the fuck are you gonna remember some guy

just didn't go to the movies with another friend oh yeah kind of shit like just think like you can't even remember like what color underwear you wear three days ago you don't know did we talk about kobe earlier yeah in this podcast yeah i don't know if i use this example though go for it i definitely mentioned the bet david interview i think i in the car you're talking about it yeah it was a car the podcast one of them but yeah kobe doing the patrick bet david interview towards the end of his life where he takes you straight into his mind mindset and i i love talking about this but the the biggest story in there i think for me that just made me go wow was he was talking about his rookie year and it was the second round of the playoffs and the lakers are playing the utah jazz who that year ended up playing the bulls in the finals and were the second best team in the league

it's like game six or something like that and it's fourth quarter overtime somewhere in there and kobe had like four or five air balls and they lost the game and so on tv they're like the young straight out of high school rookie kobe bryant air balls four or five times and the lakers lose you wonder if he's gonna bounce back or whatever said, you know, when we flew back that night, I went into the gym and I worked. And Patrick Batdeva is like, well, did it bother you? And he goes, here's the thing, man. No. When I did those air balls, I simply asked myself why they happened.

He said they happened because that was like, we have an 82-game season, second round of the playoffs. It's like game 90 or 95, whatever. He goes, I came out of high school. The most games I ever played in a season was 35. So he's like, oh, shit, I just didn't have the legs. I'm going to train my legs, and next year I'll have the legs, and that won't happen. And Bet David's like, well, yeah, but you still were embarrassed on national TV,

and you have all these people talking about you. And Kobe said, bro, you have to remember something. It doesn't matter if you're an NBA player or not or just some schmo sitting in an office. You're not that important. He's embarrassed if he decides he was embarrassed. Yes. That's what it is.

That's it. He's like, nobody cares. He's like, they'll be talking about it. They talked about it on the broadcast. They're going to damn well show it on the highlights and talk about me at the tables tomorrow he said you know what's gonna happen the next day we're already out of the playoffs and life is gonna go the fuck on and no one's watching what i do and so i'm just gonna i'm gonna work and you know what's not gonna happen again those fucking air balls and you know who's not gonna be saying shit about kobe bryan in the

future those fucking people saying shit about me right now and I think about that all the time because we think about it when we post or when we go to We curate the actions in our lives for what people are gonna think about them because we assume in our open society They're gonna see it and we think about it from the lens of like oh It's really important and people are gonna judge every little thing I do and look at every little detail and you know what some stalkers might That's okay. A few people will. Who the fuck cares? You're not important.

I'm not important. You're not important. There's seven and a half billion people in this world. People have lives. We don't even know who we're voting for. You think we're going to know what the fuck is going on in Mike Sahagin's life at all times? Michael. Michael.

I'm sorry. Michael Sahagin's life at all times and then be able to curate our lives around like, hey, that's not what I want, so I'm going to do it this way. You know what, if you're doing that, you got a lot of problems that I don't, and that's on you, man. And we forget this in our society today, and I'm just so glad that you bring it up, because it's, I mean, I could, I will never stop saying that, because it bothers me that people are are like that but it's it's the truth yeah it's it's exciting like once you figure it out for yourself it's just it's a contagious behavior

that you just don't want to stop and i think for me i look at it as like i live my life and i'm doing the things i want and i think the best compliment i can ever get is for someone to reach out of like you did that that inspired me to do this like I've had like something of all right I started I was always a runner but I never did marathons until three or four years ago and I was someone was like all right I'm gonna post every fucking day I go for a run yeah that's annoying it's like oh sick dude you went for a run like I get that but then it's like all right you've done multiple marathons I got people hitting me up like hey i see you're a runner like do you have a recommendation on a

watch hey i'm trying to do a marathon what do you recommend it's like that's awesome it's like i'm so happy to help you out like you can pay it forward absolutely it's like yeah no shit like then that person will probably at their first marathon what's going on in their head maybe they just want to get in shape maybe they're challenging themselves of like what else do i want to do happy to help you out and i think it's just for the way to help people out you got to be i think it's it's you got to be specific you got it you got to help the person that wants that you want to help from so it's like i listen for me you can say music like hey michael listen a lot of music that comes from so many good friends of mine starting with when i was in dc of like charlie chris duda and gavin just that was a big it's

funny it's just like a shock coming from a fraternity or a sports fraternity but these were three guys that i remember is like the first sundays of football no one was like amp for football like guys are we watching the football games like what i don't care like it's like wait these guys are just not into just football every sunday it's like interesting interesting there's a different way you can do other stuff on a sunday such a dumb realization of course people go to a museum go to coffee like i don't know just do other shit besides just watch football day it's like's like, you know what? This is like a, all right, what else is different? What else I thought was just the way to do it.

But just like the music thing of, you know, something like, you like music, give me some suggestions. Like, you got to help me out a little bit more. Like, if you can come to me of like, hey, I like this genre of music, these artists, anything similar, it's a lot easier to help someone out. It's not like a bad thing it's good intentions but something of you know helping people out that's that's for me it's just i want to be a resource because i'm always i'm always being a sponge for people i'll ask you is like i don't know a thing about podcasts my friend david's really into

watches i don't know a thing about watches but like i'll happily come over to your house give me a drink spend three hours talking to me about podcasts or watches that'll keep me interested just it's just more information and it's just for someone else a good opportunity it's like you're the expert show me your stuff that's a cool feeling that's a cool feeling to have someone ask that for you it's like you know what i want to do a podcast this guy did a real ass job this is legit he's the expert i can watch youtube video but i have a friend that knows it i want to come to you it's just a great feeling to have yeah man well look i i think that's that's a great place to stop you said so many things today that i'm gonna have to watch a million

times back and uh i'm not surprised it's when i go to bring people in obviously like we don't really know where it's gonna go but like i know some of your hot buttons always like i know when a guest comes in like he's an expert in this or she's good at this or whatever and and the depth to which you think about this stuff i have to say though was a little bit surprising to me because it was it was a little bit surprising to me because it was it was a lot more than i thought and that's it's i feel like i get pleasantly surprised every podcast episode but that's the beauty of this medium when you sit down and and it's not like all right we have 40 minutes to go through this and you can actually just talk to people and get

into a flow and and start to dig deeper on on questions that everyone has it's amazing some of the stuff that other people will come up with and i'm just happy we get to get it on camera so and on the mic so thank you for coming down brother julian i'm proud of you thank you so much this is amazing you're crushing it thanks brother i'm i'm trying and that's that's the thing that's that's what can't get taken away this is yours going after it this is yours trend to fire follow listen share all right thanks brother we'll we'll keep it rolling and at some point we'll have you on again but thanks for coming in my dude and everyone else give it a thought give back to me peace