Julian Dorey Podcast - #280 - Autistic Kids are Communicating w/ each other Telepathically | Scot Sherwood

Episode Date: March 4, 2025

(***TIMESTAMPS in description below) ~ Scot Sherwood is a dedicated father featured in The Telepathy Tapes podcast, where he shares his experience raising his autistic daughter, Lily who demonstrates telepathic abilities. PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/JulianDorey FOLLOW JULIAN DOREY: INSTAGRAM (Podcast): https://www.instagram.com/juliandoreypodcast/ INSTAGRAM (Personal): https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey/ X: https://twitter.com/julianddorey GUEST LINKS: -Telepathy Tapes Website: https://thetelepathytapes.com/ -Chris Antich Podcast: https://youtu.be/LIlXcVjaEjU?si=4zsNrMkP5ywYK3yd ****TIMESTAMPS**** 00:00 - Telepathy Tapes & Daughter Lily, Findings in the Telepathy Tapes 14:57 - Verbal Processing & How it Works, MRI Speaking 23:03 - Compartmentalizing Raising Autistic Child, 31:36 - 6th Sense & Picking Up on Emotions, Autistic Children Mind 44:23 - Picking Up Happiness of Child Story 56:02 - Tapping Border (Neurophysiological Response), Savant Skills 01:10:45 - Telepathy Tapes & Moving to Atlanta, 1st Moments of Telepathy 01:21:06 - Lily Taking Off & Escaped Family, Lily & JP Telepathic 01:32:45 - Scientific Community Shooting Down Telepathy Tapes, 01:44:02 - Lily Not Feeling Body for 10 Years (Super High Pain Tolerance) 01:53:01 - Carl Sagan’s Point on Curiosity 01:58:47 - JP Passing Away in hot tub Story 02:03:12 - Testing Lily & Ability to Read His Mind 02:22:43 - Possible Implications of Telepathic Abilities (Past Lives) 02:29:37 - Lily’s Message on “Love” to People CREDITS: - Host & Producer: Julian D. Dorey - In-Studio Producer & Editor: Alessi Allaman - https://www.youtube.com/@alessiallaman Julian Dorey Podcast Episode 280 - Scot Sherwood Music by Artlist.io Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Did you talk to Lily about this? Yeah, so I started talking about Lily and so then I started testing it with Lily. So I started, what am I thinking of? And she'd spell out what number, and I'd start asking her questions in my head. What kinds of questions, like pretty basic stuff? Just basic stuff, just think of any random question, but I wouldn't verbalize it. In my head I'd think, what did you have for dinner? Simple things, and then I would not verbalize it, but I'd say, what did you have for dinner simple things and then i would

not verbalize it and i said what do you have for dinner and then she would spell hey guys if you're not following me on spotify please hit that follow button and leave a five-star review they're both a huge huge help thank you Sorry we gave you a dreary day here in Jersey, Scott. I know this isn't quite like Atlanta. Well, woke up at 4.30 this morning to the tornado sirens. So a dreary, gray day in Jersey. A little better than that. Yeah yeah it's a little better than waking up to tornado sirens so we we taken off in between tornadoes no no all the pass through

before even my lift uh you know picked me up so that's good but it was uh that was my wake-up call you know before the alarm went off the uh the sirens were going all up from there. We'll be good. Yeah. Yeah. So that was, that was the day. That's how the day started. All right. Well, I am very excited to talk with you and I understand this is the first podcast you've done. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm, uh, I'm out of my element, so I have no frame of reference. This is exactly what I told you. It's exactly what it looks like. We just start talking and go through it. But for people out there who don't know who you are, you were featured along with your daughter, Lily, in the Telepathy Tapes documentary podcast series, which is excellent. Kai Dickens put out this. I guess it's like 10 episodes.

Yeah. Right? And she put this out in the fall. I think there's going to be another season as well. We'll get into what the background of it is. But this was actually brought to me by the other man in the studio today, Chris. So thank you for putting this together, my man. Thanks for having me.

Of course. Of course. But, Scott, why don't we start at the beginning here? Before we get into everything that the telepathy tapes is actually looking at with nonverbal autistic kids, can you tell us how you got involved with this at all with your daughter, like how you even first heard about this? Yeah. So it's kind of kind of unusual we um you know telepathy is not on our radar you know we're just um you know we our daughter lily so i mean you said i was featured and so our my daughter lily was featured in this we were kind of just along for the ride. I heard you talking in there, though.

But I think we're involved because she wanted to be involved. Actually, our initial reaction when we found out about the project, because we have a couple other friends who you meet in the podcast uh houston and jp they're also from atlanta we're all you know we're all part of that you know autism community they're good friends do a lot of social things together our kids would be you know whether it's bike outings or hikes or you know lake days things like that we do uh do a lot of stuff together you know we didn't know about the the project and they they didn't know about the the project and they they said you heard about the documentary and we're like oh no what's it about telepathy you know we kind of had started talking about it started talking about some of the

phenomenon talking about the ways like lily and jp communicate and things like that. And our initial thought was like, I'm not sure we really want to be a part of this project. It's not really in our wheelhouse. We're not trying to be public people. We're not trying to do that. We're just kind of getting through our lives, doing our thing. But more than anything,

our daughter really wanted to be a part of that. She wanted to tell the world her story, her and JP's story, and the lives that they lead that are kind of secret. Autism, we always kind of, you know, autism, we always talk about being a spectrum, you know, and the spectrum that we live is commonly hidden, you know, from society. We're not out in public as much.

There's a lot of kind of misunderstanding, a lot of the supports that our kids need are not really there in everyday life. So we're kind of, our segment of the spectrum's not gonna be on something like love on the spectrum. We're just, you know, we're not going to be represented in that. So Lily really wanted to tell her story.

So that's why we ultimately got involved with the project. And when we did, we started exploring it. I started testing things with Lily and just kind of gotten deeper and deeper into understanding that world. And yeah, as the unveiling of the podcast happened and getting to hear some of the experiences of other people that were featured in the podcast, it expanded our minds as well because not everything that we, in our experience,

we didn't experience everything that some of the other people that are featured in the podcast experience. This has been kind of mind opening for us as well. Would you mind giving people the context now of the telepathy tapes and what the supposed findings are as far as what the capabilities of some of these kids and including lily are yeah so basically that that there's a mind-to-mind communication happening no verbal literal telepathy you know so um that they're able to communicate thoughts, dreams, hopes, desires, in a non, you know, without words. So, and that's the, you know, and the people featured, it's not exclusive, but the people featured in the podcast are generally either non-speaking

or minimally speaking or unreliably speaking. So some, you know, and there's different varieties or different, you know, different levels, you know, of that. You know, Lily is basically non-speaking. She does, you know, make intonations. She makes sounds, things like that. She has spoken words at times past and occasionally will approximate words. So we know there's language there.

Part of the reason we use the word non-speaking instead of non-verbal because she has all the words. I mean, non-verbal, you know, because she has all the words. I mean, non-verbal is the more accepted, widely used phrase or term. But, you know, she has all the words, you know, literally. She can't get them out. But the speaking part, you know, it goes to the speaking part. It goes to the expressive language rather than the receptive language. So they understand everything, take it all in, hear everything.

They may not demonstrate it to our satisfaction that they get it, but they get it and they hear it and they understand everything that's going on. But I'm not sure I answered the question. No, you did. You did. When was Lily first diagnosed was it right when she was born or did it come later? Well yeah we we did notice it you know early on and probably my wife was the first to kind of clue in which makes sense you know we're her first birthday we're having you know family over had her first birthday and we're having, you know, family over at a little birthday party, had the cake and everything. And, um, you know, I didn't really clue into anything, but my wife was like, something

is, something's just a little bit off, you know, I'm not sure what. And so we kind of went on, um, you know, and then kind of at our 18-month, you know, checkup, you know, brought it up to the pediatrician. I was like, yeah, I'm not sure, you know, the language is quite there. And, you know, my wife is actually kind of, you know, dismissed a little bit. She's like, oh, well, you know, your daughter is a doctor's kid. You know, they always talk a little bit later. You know, they're fine. A doctor's kid. You know, they always talk a little bit later. You know, they're fine.

A doctor's kid talks a little bit later? I guess there's something out there. There's something out there. Never heard that one. Yeah, that was, yeah. So don't, it was kind of just like, don't worry. It's, you know, it's, they'll get it and kind of turn to Lily and goes, okay, use your words, you know, and that was kind of it. And so it kind of went on.

And eventually, you know, a few months later, it became, you know, really clear that, you know, some of the expected language and the expected, you know, play. She was kind of, you know, lining her toys up and different things like that. And you're like, okay, we're, you know, we're probably dealing, you know, we're probably dealing with autism here. And, uh, so she was 26 months old. So just over two years when she was officially diagnosed. And so we, um, yeah, I got the diagnosis. We were living out in San Diego at the time. And I just jumped right in, got plugged into all the things. So they had really well-organized regional centers out there that get you plugged into the ABA therapy and speech and OT. ABA therapy?

So yeah, Applied Behavioral Analysis. So it's kind of the mainstay of therapy that people use. And it's something that never really made progress with. And for a lot of non-speakers, it hasn't really worked well for a lot of people. Some people say, yeah, it really helped my child. They progressed. But I think for the level of apraxia and the level of apraxia and the level of dyspraxia that the non-speaking autistics have, that it's not really helpful.

And Lily was actually diagnosed with that she received at the time. Meaning they didn't think she was going to be intellectually capable? They went beyond just diagnosing her on the autism spectrum? So, yeah, those are the three diagnoses. Now, they've kind of reordered kind of some of the diagnoses. They don't really use pervasive developmental disorder anymore, I think. They kind of, when they updated things with the new DSM-5, they kind of reclassified autism a little bit

and kind of did away with pervasive developmental disorder and you know asperger's that kind of incorporated those more into the autism spectrum maybe a little bit off on that somebody would probably correct me that uh i'm getting some nuance of that incorrect but uh we're talking live it's all right but that's um um so yeah that that was where they're at and it was like you know it was questionable it wasn't like a definitive statement but it was like you know but we come to find out later and you know didn't really realize realize at the time every iq test that is performed requires a motor component so it's it's supposedly testing intelligence but to demonstrate the intelligence you have to perform a motor function so you have to either point at something or pick a correct card or write

something or whatever. It doesn't matter what the test, all the IQ tests require you to perform a motor task. And so if you have a gross motor or fine motor apraxia or dyspraxia, you can't demonstrate your knowledge. You're not able to accurately measure intelligence. You're measuring a capability. You're indirectly measuring intelligence by directly measuring performance of a motor task. Can you explain apraxia and dyspraxia to people out there who don't know what that is? Yeah. So praxis basically is just kind of the, basically the act of doing, you know, something.

It's the, it's the practice, you know? You know, we're talking about practice. We're talking about praxis. Practice, man. Not a game. Not a game. We're talking about praxis. So yeah, we're talking about praxis. Practice, man. Not a game. Not a game. We're talking about praxis. So, yeah, we're talking about praxis.

So it's the doing. It's the actual carrying out of something. It's the action. And so apraxia is obviously A is without. So it's without doing, without the action, without the thing. And dyspraxia is just disordered or disorganized. And for Lily and for a lot of people like Lily, they have apraxia of speech. And when you think of it, speech, you have speech, you have language, you know, we have different parts of our brain that, you know, are the control centers for each one of those.

You know, classically, we've always talked about, you know, you got Broca's area, you know, in the frontal lobe, you got, you know, Vertica's area, more in the, a little more posteriorly, more in the temporal lobe there. And then there's some other areas. Our, you know, our understanding of that is a little more complex than was originally talked about. And, but yeah, there's, so there's different parts of the brain that are, that are the centers for each of those. And, you know, for the speech part, it's, you know, it's a motor. It's a motor function. And so, and for speech, it's really complex, you know, complex thing.

When you think about it, you have, you know, it starts as an idea. It has, you know, you have this like, you know, neurochemical, this neurochemical thing is going on in your brain. It gets moved, you know, you have this like, you know, neurochemical, this neurochemical thing is going on in your brain. It gets moved, you know, it kind of gets formulated. It then goes to like the, you know, the premotor cortex where the motor planning happens and kind of put that together. And it goes to the primary motor strip to actually perform the action. So when you think about it, like if you sat and like consciously thought about everything that has to happen for you to say a sentence, to move air across your lips, it's super complex. I mean, just think about it like you got your jaws moving up and down so you got all the

muscles facial muscles that are contracting and relaxing to do that your tongue's moving in and out it's changing shape you know your uvula is like you know popping up and down and moving around yet you're all your pharyngeal muscles

that are contracting expanding you know changing, you know, changing their shape to form different sounds and tones. You know, you got your diaphragm, intercostal muscles, your movement air, your breathing, your larynx is like, you know, popping in and out to modulate the air going through that. And everything is like super you know a super complex thing if you actually just think as you're talking think about all the different things that are moving and it's it's a very intricate ballet of fine motor tasks and if you if you if you take even one of them off track it messes up. It's like a cascading effect.

You can't do any of it. Yeah. So whether it's the planning or the execution or wherever it is in that step, there's multiple steps that have to happen for that. And actually there's a really cool YouTube video. Like there's this real-time MRI of speaking that can demonstrate one. There's actually one with, yeah. Okay, we got it up on the screen.

So you can see what the, you know, the tongue, the uvula is popping. You can see a little bit that right in front of the spine, the pharyngeal muscles moving. Obviously, the lips. There's so much going on that it's just a super intricate motor. That's wild. Those are things that we don't have to be conscious of, that we just learn. That's right. So is that something that with these children and with Lily specifically, is that something you have to explain? Is that something that they have to learn?

Where does the process start? Because in some of the content that you've shared with us, it's really fun to watch these kids learn. And they're trying. You can see how much effort it takes. But again, that's what we take for granted. Where do you even start with that? Or do you start with the spelling instead? Yeah, well, there's, I mean, yeah.

That's why in a lot of cases we've, you know, or that's kind of the whole concept of spelling is that you're taking communication from this super intricate, you know, motor, fine motor skill to a simpler gross motor skill. So instead of verbal communication, you know, there's multiple modalities for communication obviously the most common one we use is speech but obviously spelling, you have sign language all those kind of things

we tried sign language with Lily but again, the fine motor to do that was still pretty complex. Sure. But yeah, that's what the spelling does. It moves that from a fine motor task to a gross motor task. And for people out there, when you're saying spelling, you're literally referring to the physical boards you'll use where you have the 26 letters on it and like a space and stuff like that where they can go and and point out each letter to be able to communicate right right so yeah there's yeah sometimes you even start with um even fewer letters so a lot of times you'll start with three different letter boards that the alphabet's kind of broken up

um you know into three sections. Why do you do that? To even simplify it. Just have fewer, even fewer options, you know. Because sometimes a letter board with 26 choices is the, you know, it still can be overwhelming of a motor task to pick those and to give bigger targets. So you can have bigger targets on the same size board by, you know, splitting it up. And so pretty commonly you start that way. And as you progress and develop those motor pathways to control your arm, control your finger, control your body to be able to point to the desired letter, you kind of move up. Then you move to the 26-letter board.

And then a lot of people move to a keyboard or an iPad or things like that. And there's a lot of different varieties and people have done different pathways and there's a lot of different communication, you know, devices, you know, out there. But that's, you know, that's a pretty common pathway. But we didn't, you know, we didn't immediately, you know, go there. We kind of went the traditional route with ABA and with speech for about 10 years. So you started this one right groups on the West Coast. We, you know, then we moved back, you know, to Memphis, and we, you know, worked there with specialized, you know, schools. You know, we were, you know, we were not confident that she was going to be able to get what she could get

or what she needed in, you she needed in the public school. And we had her in a kind of private, kind of ABA-based school. And we thought we were doing everything we were supposed to do. And people were hopeful. They would say, yeah, we have a good prognosis that Lily would develop this or that. And that her communication and develop this or that and you know that sure her you know

communication and speech and oh they thought she could develop that she thought that that would you know that would develop you know with you know with an early intervention and with intense you know therapy that that way you would you know that there'd be a good chance and as the years go you go on and you see you know we're not seeing a whole lot of you know progress um you know in those regards you know so what's that like as a dad though because like we're talking about this obviously from the the the i guess like the medical journey that your daughter's been on, but this whole time, like you're her dad, like she, she got diagnosed with something very serious at 26 months that has in a lot of ways, an unknown prognosis that you have to figure out as you go along.

Well, how, how, how do you compartmentalize that? Um, yeah, that's hard. And I probably compartmentalize it you know more i know i well naturally i mean i compartmentalize it more than more than my wife does but and it's very i mean it's all encompass mix of when you get that diagnosis, and at the time you're trying to be hopeful, but you're also like, what is this going to be? Try to stay positive and try to be hopeful that she'll be able to develop and be able to have a you know meaningful fulfilled life and you know but then there's also like what you know you try not to have unrealistic expectations

you know for your kids you try to like you know like oh well i want to you know i'm gonna you know love them regardless or whatever and but then you're also you're also like you know, like, oh, I want to, you know, I'm going to love them regardless or whatever. But then you're also, you're also like, you know, what is that? Like, will she ever be able to, you know, have meaningful relationships? Will she ever be able to find love? You know, will I be, you know, able to walk her down the aisle, you know, someday. Well, you know, you know, will, you know, will she, yeah, find meaningful fulfillment in doing what she wants to do? And, you know, kind of all those things. And you wonder and you're like, and you, you, you change. I mean, like I said, you try not to have these expectations, but it's inevitable you do, you change. I mean, like I said, you try not to have these expectations,

but it's inevitable you do. And it reveals like, oh, I did have all these expectations of what I thought it was going to be raising a daughter. You thought you were going to hit all these milestones. You're going to have all these. They're going to play sports. They're going to do this. They're going to graduate. They're going to go do this. They're going to, you know, graduate.

They're going to go to prom. They're going to go, you know, go to golf to college, you know, all those things. And you want, you kind of like, what is that? And so you're constantly dealing with this, you know, how change of expectation, how is it, what's this going to be like how is this going to how is this going to you know affect her what kind of life is she going to be able to live and um you know and then you you know then you're kind of mourning those losses of every one of those milestones and mourning every single loss, you know, and every step of the way. And at the same time, you know, you have this, you know, wonderful human being right in front of you

that you're still trying to process and raise and try to provide, you know, all the supports and everything that they need as well. Was it hard? I mean, like it's your daughter, so there's an inherent understanding as a parent that you have about what she's like and who she is as a person. But when you are dealing with a child where you can't necessarily have a regular free-flowing conversation, even ages five, six, seven, when there's limited vocabulary and limited things to talk about. Did it ever feel like there was, I don't know, a little bit of distance there because you couldn't do that? Or did you feel like you had, without knowing anything about telepathy or anything

like that that might come later, you felt like you were so involved in her life and she was therefore also so involved in yours that you were able to develop a really, really deep relationship. Yeah, it was, you know, again, we, you know, we didn't know the level of understanding that she had. And we wrongly, we wrongly assumed that she wasn't understanding to the level that she, I think obviously was looking back, you know? So, and we would, you know, we would talk about her in front of her and we would, you know, and say things and we would communicate as if her level of understanding was way less than than what it what it was and i think a lot of people you know i think a lot of people do that and i think you know that was the biggest you know and we would talk to her like very slowly

and like two word sentences and trying to like, you know, want eat, you know, things like that to, you know, just trying to make it simple thinking she didn't understand. And, um, that was the number one thing when we, when we did eventually get to, you know, just trying the spelling, you know, thing. And when we did, like, you know, it wasn't really that hopeful that it was going to be useful for us. You know, I was kind of skeptical about it going in because partly because we had done all the things we were supposed to do for 10 years and hadn't really, you know, hadn't made, you know, year of the progress. You know, they're like, you know, pick the blue square and we're getting three out of 10 for three years straight. You know, we're like, okay, what's, you know, what's going on? But that was the first thing when we did that.

And I was like, oh, she understands everything. And so we instantly started talking. I think she was 12. Let's see what the year was at. She was like 12 when we did that. And so it was like, okay. I mean, we instantly just started talking like she's a 12-year-old girl and she knows everything a 12-year-old girl knows, maybe even more.

That's crazy, though, because you essentially go basically a decade where you're not doing any of that. And then overnight, you discover, oh, my God, holy shit, she's in there. And it's like ripping a page off, not even turning it. And suddenly, your entire approach is different. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, that was the biggest change. That was the biggest switch. And then, and yeah, you start feeling, man, God, start feeling guilty for, you know, what, you know, how you've, you know, and that's

one of the things that the non-speakers will tell you.'ll say you know i want you to talk to me i'm here don't talk about me in front of me talk to me address me you know i may not be able to you know reciprocate in a way that's satisfying to you that would demonstrate to you that i understand but i understand i i'm taking it all in when you started the spelling did you have some of these conversations with lily where you like, oh, I'm really sorry. Didn't realize you weren't, you know, you were actually understanding all this. That wasn't our intention, you know, to kind of give her the understanding that, you know, you were working with what you knew and there was a lot of unknown that now you do know about. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

That was that was definitely part of it for sure. How did she handle that? You know, that's one of the things about Lily and about really all the autistics that at least the we have been, you know, associated with. That their level of love and forgiveness and understanding is like off the charts. that they are full of grace, full of forgiveness, and want to point everything toward love and unity. It's amazing. Yeah, it's super humbling. Do you think that that comes from,

as you were feeling those frustrations as like a young parent, she probably, you know, again, from what we know now, I'm making assumptions, but she may have been able to read the energy and know that it was coming from a place of love. It wasn't, I'm mad at this situation. It's I'm mad because I'm out of control. I can't do all the things that you want to do, whether with your daughter or for your daughter, because you feel a sense of, I'm assuming out of control i can't do all the things that you want to do whether with your daughter or for your daughter because you feel a sense of i'm assuming out of control of the situation when these doctors are telling you they're your child's not in there it's like a heartbreaking you know thing but do you think that at those ages that she was and even speaking for other families the things that you've heard that they were processing, like, yes, you may have been talking in front of her about her, but it was like, she could

sense the love at the same time. Yeah. I mean, I think they do, they do have an understanding of that and kind of, you know, going back a little bit, I think, um, and I think it goes, goes to some of the things, cause like autism classically we've been talking about uh is is you know talk about being a you know impaired social uh you know impaired you know uh impairments in social uh awareness impairments in communication and you know repetitive behaviors. So it's kind of, those are the classic three things. And it's really been thought of as a cognitive and behavioral,

you know, issue. And I think if there's one thing that at least I would like to get out there that that's not what it is. It's not intellectual. It's not a cognitive issue. It's a sensory and motor issue. That those – it's not intellectual. It's not cognitive.

It's sensory and motor. Are there any – quick, I'm sorry to cut you off. I just want to know for my understanding, do we have examples though of say nonverbal autistic kids who are diagnosed that way who actually don't have these abilities? Or is it pretty much all of them are kind of trapped within their body as Lily is where she has all these abilities and is actually brilliant but just can't express them through motor function? I don't know that you got a good answer for that question. I think part of it's still unknown. I mean, I think the percentage of people with autism are, you know, are autistics, you know, that's at least the non-speaking autistics that spell the percentage is still pretty low so you know

all i can say is that from our experience of the people that we know and our experience with lily is that you know everyone in our community that they've all you know demonstrated that there is understanding that there is that they they are aware of what's going on, that they do have that understanding. Now, certainly there's going to be, no group is going to be monolithic. There are going to be variations within that. But everyone, at least in our community, when they've gained the ability to communicate, have been able to communicate very similar things.

That they're in there, they have hopes and dreams, they want to be treated like everyone else. Yeah. They want to be taught at grade level. They want to have all the same opportunities that everyone else their age has. Those are almost universal hopes and desires of all the people in our non-speaking community that have gained that ability

to communicate by spelling. And so, yeah, going back, that's where it's lived. It's lived with the behavior, and lived with as a communication and social impairment and and behavioral issues. And the treatment has been designed to eliminate bad behaviors and improve communication, you know. And so I think that's part of the problem and part of why, you know, the effectiveness of ABA for our population hasn't proven to be helpful at all. people that had um basically iqs of under a certain amount or like a uh i can't remember the term they used in the paper but it's like uh like the mean uh yeah mean intellectual age or something like that there's some kind of calculation and whatever that was nine months or whatever everything below that that they had like a mean you know and i can't like i said i can't remember

the exact term, but this blow that they were excluded from the study. So, I mean, Lily was diagnosed with mental retardation at 26 months. But you were also saying that's because it requires motor skills to be able to test it. Right, it requires motor skills, but she would have been excluded from that original ABA study that showed that it helped that, you know, that, that study kind of has been used as a whole, you know, foundation for ABA therapy and people like my daughter were excluded from that study. So we're giving them a therapy that actually was never proven

to be helpful for people like my daughter, because she would have been excluded from that study because her, you know, measured mean intellectual age by her IQ tests would have been below what would have allowed her to be included in that study. So, and there's so many people, so many non-speakers that have said that, you know, ABA has been traumatic, traumatizing, you know, for them. And, you know, there's, you know, and I've asked Lily about that too. And I don't know if you, she spelled this about the, her experience with ABA. And also, in her response to this, it also, to me, points to the understanding and grace and forgiveness. Ah, yeah.

Because her thoughts on ABA and her experience with it was the therapists were trying to be helpful because they were working with a flawed set of assumptions. An assumption they get wrong is that we are intellectually impaired. They assume most of us non-speakers

are not smart, never thinking that all the time it was our unruly bodies that kept us from showing all that we knew. It was exhausting being asked the same question over and over and not being able to get your body to pick the correct answer. After really long sessions, I would feel very defeated. I knew everything they were asking, but I couldn't get my body to cooperate. Nothing I could do or yeah, nothing I could do to make it better. It's also like brilliantly put right there as well.

That's the thing. Everything that it's like so many things that they say, it's, it's a sin that we looked at it this way. And again, the culture has obviously changed around autism in general over the past 20 years, you know, as you've been dealing with this but it's it's shocking it reminds me i'll butcher the quote but it's almost like there's that quote about if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree or something like that yeah you're and that was in one of our first conversations you said the brain body disconnect and even after listening to the podcast like that's what made things really click for me because i'm like oh their bodies out of control and in jordan's rocky journey

that really drove it home for me too where it's like that's he wants to climb this rock wall everything in him and his soul wants to climb this rock wall but his body's freaking out and his the sounds are coming out but he is then spelling no push me don't let my body freak out don't listen to it and then he named you know named his body and everything and it's yeah i know there's an interesting story because yeah jordan they're they're friend you know friends of ours part of that part of that um part of our community no they're not in the telepathy thing jordan's not no he's just uh, he's just, he's in kind of our non-speaking, you know, community.

Okay. And he... Who was the third one? It was John, Paul, Lily, and who was the third one in Atlanta? Houston. Houston, yeah.

So, yeah, Jordan, but yeah, I know that story started when they, yeah, they were trying to go on a hike and they had just kind of gotten to a point with their communication

with the letter boards that they were you know quote open meaning that they could ask open-ended questions and get you know um and get responses that were not either canned or not like multiple choice you know that kind of thing that you could get, you know, open conversation. And they is, they were going on a hike and he said he really wanted to go on this hike, but then when he gets to the trailhead, he's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. And they were working on, you know,

they're trying to work through this and what's going on. How can we support you? How can we do this? And there, and he kept trying to spell out my uncooperative body is, you know, all this kind of stuff. And then, and as you're going through it, the, the, it's so labor intensive just to get every single word out and it takes so, so long. And, um, so they tried to simplify that process and they're like, well, what if we do you know give your body a name so when you say you know when you know this um you know we don't have to

spell out you know my uncooperative body the whole time we can um you know we can just give it a nickname yeah so he named his name is jordan he called his body rocky so he's like okay you know rocky's doing this thing it's not doing what me jordan wants to do so don't listen to rocky listen to me um you're the outward appearance is not matching what you know my desires are um and that's kind of that brain body just interestingly he uh you know just in the process because that was that was several years ago um you know that this happened but he's kind of now doesn't refer to his body as as rocky he's kind of you know realized like you know i need i mean you know integration i'm a whole person you know i'm

jordan you know mind body and soul and is now kind of more of a, in a different place of acceptance and integration, you know, with that, and so, but that was definitely part of it, but I think it's really, really one of the better examples of what is, you know, what is going on, and how these kids are, what their relationship with their body is. And I know for Lily, there's so many times we quit trusting what her body was. Because before we could spell with her, we always had to try to go by her body language of whether she liked something or didn't like something and whether she wanted to do something or didn't want to do something. We had to go with her body language and all the other nonverbal communication

that we do for everything all day. Are you ever able to look her in the eyes or does she not do a lot of that? She will. She does. And then sometimes she doesn't, you know. Sure. I've heard some people, you know, talk about looking, you know, because a lot of times we're trying to get, you know, eye contact, you know, all this stuff because that, you know, that demonstrates to our satisfaction that they are attentive and that they are looking and they're, they're understanding when they give eye contact. That's something for us. That's something that demonstrates to us that they understand. You know, some people have said, I can't really look in people's eyes because it's too intense. It's like, I'm looking into their soul, you know, and some people though,

their visual fields, they take in senses differently in their visual fields. And the center of their visual fields are so, there's so much information there that it's actually clearer for them if they kind of use their peripheral vision. So they'll do that a lot and look out the, you know, be looking out the side of their eyes. I've seen that. Yeah. And using their peripheral vision so i think they use their vision and their senses in ways that we don't really understand but kind of going back to lily we there's one time john paul came over i don't know if it's like valentine's day or something like that he was coming over to bring some candy and flowers and balloons and lily starts and gets there and she just starts going going nuts

and she's like crying she's like banging her head against the wall she's knocking stuff off the counters she's going and climbs up to the top of our stairs just kind of sitting there and crying and we're like oh so you know we're thinking oh well maybe uh maybe john paul needs to leave you know it's just too much you know it's too much emotion whatever and maybe she you know she's in distress or whatever and i go ask her what's going on and she spells out i'm so happy so and you know and so here had we not had the ability to spell with her and understand how she's feeling we would have made john paul leave which then would have further you know because the way that exacerbated the distress and then the exact opposite of what she actually wanted

the way that that she may exhibit emotion and feeling is going to be different in, in, in some cases. And so you have to, you have to be able to get in there to interpret that. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, we, you know, sometimes it matches and some, you know, sometimes the outward actions match the internal emotion, but a lot of times there's a mismatch there. And what we there and what we're what you're seeing is not you know what they're really feeling yes we were over you know over at a friend's house at a party and you know lily came and they have uh you know there's a couple other girls that were close to lily's age and uh not not autistic um you, neurotypical voice users, as Lily calls us.

Yeah, I like that. That's cool. So they went up, and we're kind of all hanging out. Usually when we go to places, either my wife and I are with Lily the whole time or somebody is attending to her. But this time she wanted to go up. She wanted to hang out upstairs with the girls and kind of do that thing. And so they were all hanging out, just them.

And it was really like one of the first times she was hanging out with typical teens, friends her age you know autonomously without parents around and they're up there for a while and you know things were going good and then they come down a little bit you know and they're like well you know she started crying and you know came down the stairs and so we you know they went you, one of the other girls brought Lily down. It's like, yeah, she started crying. I was like, Lily, what's going on? And she just, again, she just said, I'm just so happy, you know. To feel normal.

Yeah, to feel like she's, you know, having a meaningful, you know, relationship, just doing what everyone else takes for granted, you know. I'm trying to put myself in your shoes when she was 12, which is completely impossible to do. I'm just imagining all the possibilities of what might have been popping into my head after this long journey to even get here to know that my daughter's in there fully and everything. We had talked a little bit about some of the things you asked her about ABA and what her interpretation of that was. But what – I can only imagine there's a million different things you want to ask her to know more about her.

Like what were some of the highlights for you where even – I don't know if I should put a timeline on it. But in that first few weeks of being – of her being able to spell and communicate with you, what, what were some of the most important breakthroughs, like from a father-daughter perspective you were able to have? Yeah, I think the first thing, so it wasn't like, so when we went to, so when we discovered the spelling thing, we actually, you know, went to, you know, spelling practitioner, you know, Soma, who's in Austin, Texas. And she had her that first week. So we just had a week-long intensive thing. And so that first week, she demonstrated that she understood everything.

She knew that war had gone on in Iraq. She knew her multiplication tables. You know, she knew the multiplication tables. She hadn't been taught any math. Is that like a savant kind of thing then? That she knew that if she wasn't taught it? caught it um i don't know how much was savantish or how much of it was just you know absorbing and taking and taking things in i don't know but yeah she just she she knew it and she you know with the you know with the help of soma she wrote a little short story you know about a horse named ben who lived on a farm and it was raining and he was sad and

there were ducks and pigs and you know they're just we're just watching all this unfold we're like like constantly just like what what what is going on um and we get back home and we're like we got bought letter boards we got all this stuff we're trying to learn but you know we don't know what what we're doing you know and we had not you know we were it was a while before we could you know really communicate you know with lily um with the letter board so it wasn't like instantly I was able to ask her every question and find out everything she was. There was a whole process. Why did it take so long to do that? I'm thinking of it way too simply in my head. kind of goes back to all the steps in praxis, you know? So there's the, you know, the motor planning and all this kind of stuff because there's,

and there's a way of helping coach the motor part and get the motor planning without it getting short circuited and derailed. Cause I think that's a lot of the issue is that and a motor intentional start, and then it gets derailed. And that was kind of the genius of Soma, and her method is called rapid prompting method. And so the purpose of that is that you give multiple rapid prompts to kind of keep them on the motor planning pathway to the motor function pathway to be able

to do the task and uh whereas before the mindset was like oh you need to give slow words one words two word sentences got it we need to make sure they understand or whatever and this you know some of yeah that was totally flipped. I was like, no, rapid. We're going to rapid prompt it. There it is. Go to it. Blah, blah, blah.

Hit the nut. You know, and just kind of keep them going and, you know, more of a rhythmic, you know, thing to kind of keep the motor planning before it gets derailed. Because I think there's some things that are going. So anyway, it ends up being a process. And a lot of parents, I guess, frustrating because the spelling practitioners will be able to spell with their kids with a lot less effort. I think there's a lot of also emotion and other things that go on with that parent-child relationship that there's a lot of there's just a lot of things that kind of muddy the waters you know with that because

you got all these parental expectations and yeah it's kind of like when i was growing up i'd have you know some of the played basketball and some of the best games I've had is when my dad couldn't be there. You know, my dad is very conscientious and he was like, did everything, reworked work schedules to be at almost every basketball game. And he never like, you know, he wanted me to do my best, you know, his best to not put additional pressure on me, you know, wanted me to perform, but you know, there's still, there's that, there's still that thing, you know, am I going to please my father? You know, there's that kind of thing. And then when he wasn't there, there's something, you know, I don't know. It was, but it was, it was kind of interesting to see that I would have,

you know, I ended up having a really good game. All I have to say is that, you know, loving parents with intention can cause, you know, make the performance of a task, you know, it can complicate it. It can muddy the waters. So I think parents experience that with a spelling, you know, in a big way and it can and it can you know take a long time and take a lot of effort to kind of overcome

that and um you know that's uh you know that's what we see a lot there's almost like this uh like emotional energy like you're saying blocking and like these are the things again we don't see them so we don't but we feel them everybody feels them i always say like if you if you come across two people who are married and in love like when they walk in you know that they're dating because there's a thing around them that is energetically obvious to us that we subconsciously process and i wonder if that's part of it and then another thing i picked up on is with the communication partners like you're saying it's not like you just put a board there and have them just point to it immediately. Like they're put the board down and they go, like they,

they put the board down and then go and they lift it up. And it kind of, I wonder what's happening in that process because that's something I've noticed every time the communication partners hiding the board and then they put it down and then they point like, and it's like, it's kind of a reset and it has to do, and I do that a lot with lily it's kind of you know think of it like a movie set you know take one you know take two you know yeah so take you know and so there's a few things that ends up happening i think what what these motor loops that that end up happening you know part of the because there's this whole you know thing with praxis, because there's this whole, you know, thing with praxis, again,

talking about praxis, that, you know, you have the planning, you have the execution, and at the end, you have the inhibition where you have to stop the action, you know? And so, and I think sometimes what our kids will do is they'll get on the board and they'll hit a letter and then they'll just, the board will get interesting and they'll just start tap, tap, tap, tapping all over the letter, letter board and not in a communicative or meaningful way, you know, and they'll just start tapping around. And so when you reset the board, you're kind of getting that, okay, we're, we're stopped now.

We're back to initiation for the next letter. And then rather than getting into this loop of, you know, I'm just going to hit whatever. When they're doing that, though, like when they start tapping around randomly, is it they're still within their own head maybe communicating, but now on the outside, it's like the wires get crossed a little bit. So they get off track, but they don't think they're off track. Or is it more? I don't know. I'm not sure.

Yeah, I'm not sure exactly what's going on. I haven't tried to ask Lily that specific question. You know, the – but I do think there's something to the inhibition part that's not happening. And so they've got the motor plan, they got the letter they needed, and then the inhibitions part to stop the action is not doing what it's supposed to do or whatever. So, but that's the, you know, there's things we know about the autistic brain that are interesting. And I don't know if it totally explains it, but there's a few things that are happening or that happen. And I think they're still figuring it out. There's so many tests. There's so many studies that have studied brain connectivity in different regions of the brain in autistics and typical developing people

that there are some differences there. And I think that some of them, if you kind of put them together, some of them explain some of the of put them together, some of them explain some of the stuff we see, you know, with the non-speaking autistics. And one of them is the degree of synaptic pruning. Synaptic pruning. That happens. So the synapse is that point between two neurons that where they communicate. it's like that gap it's that space in between yeah so this neuron fires it releases the neurotransmitters so you got all those all the neurotransmitters they bind to the next neuron you know those are you know those those

are the neural connections are the synapses and And so in brain development, and actually if you look up the synaptic pruning, autism. So normally, yeah, in development, infants are developing all these neurons. They overdevelop the number of neurons they have up until about two years of age or so. Yeah, maybe look at that first one there. Oh, wow. So what happens is basically that's all the neural connections, you know, in your brain. And they develop them by two years. You got this dense, you know. Peaks then.

You got some, yeah, peaks at about two years or so. I mean, there's a range, but, you know, two years. And then over the next 10 to 15 years, there's pruning that happens. And so the neural pathways that get used a lot get myelinated and developed, and then the ones that don't get used as much get pruned away. And so you have all this, yeah, all this synaptic pruning that normally takes place. And in autistics, so normally you get about 50% of those synapses are pruned over time, you know, over adolescence until like late, you know, mid to late adolescence. And then, but in autistics, it's only about 16% get pruned. So, so you end up with all these additional neural, you know, neural connections and side roads.

Complicates things. You know, so you have this really complex, you know, network of neurons and synapses in the brain that don't get pruned. So you've got a lot of side streets, a lot of side roads. You still have some big superhighways, but the superhighways are maybe not as superhighway-ish. And then you've got a lot of side roads and a lot of things. So I think, to me, that's interesting. Does that explain some of the stuff?

Is that why some of the rapid prompting method works? Because it keeps you on the main road and keeps you from taking the side street? That makes sense. Is that? I don't know. But that could be something. There's also, they talk about differences in brain connectivity. There's been some earlier studies that talked about maybe increased connection over short distances and decreased connection over long distances.

So you have a lot of activity, like maybe within the frontal lobes. But then translating that and getting that signal down to the brainstem and then to the rest of the body. You know, there's been studies that have kind of decreased connectivity over longer distance. There's been some more recent studies that kind of muddy the waters a little bit, or I mean, I think they're still trying to figure it out. And there's also studies on the sensory side that there's differences on the sensory side from the cerebellum to the higher

parts of the brain and processing senses differently. So there's been a lot of work in trying to understand this. I don't think there's a there's you know there's been a lot of work and you know kind of trying to understand this i don't i don't think it's a clear picture but if you have decreased synaptic pruning and decreased brain connectivity over longer distances that kind of explains a lot of the apraxia and the dyspraxia that we uh you know that we see and then combine that there's been studies that talk about kind of hyper-functioning amygdala.

And that amygdala is kind of that, drives that fight or flight. Yes. Sense of the autonomic nervous system. And so you have that, you know, your amygdala with a hair trigger to uh go into fight or flight um and that they sometimes the uh the sympathetic side which is the fight or flight and then the parasympathetic side which is kind of the rest and digest gets in imbalance so you get over you know um you know the uh sympathetic side the fight or flight is is um you know kind of overexpressed and the rest and digest the parasympathetic is underexpressed. And so you kind of get that combination where you get in,

you know, the senses are taking way more senses in and you easily jumped into a fight or flight, you get into this dysregulation. And, you know, so there's a lot of, you know, a lot of things going on. And, you know, I think understanding that is important to figure out how to support – how do we support these kids? How do we provide opportunities? How do we provide environments that let them function to their full abilities? And I think that goes – we'll see. The other thing that's interesting on the sensory side is so many of these kids have synesthesia.

Where they see colors and when they hear things and stuff like that. Yeah. So like two different senses are combined. Yeah. And you know, that you know, that you know, complicates things too. And I mean, to me, if you have decreased synaptic pruning, it makes sense. There's a lot of other side roads that these senses could be interconnected with and, you know, sound and sight and smell and touch. You know, but it's, you know, it's interesting, like general population, maybe about 4% have synesthesia and autistics about 20 percent make sense have synesthesia i have a little bit of that yeah and that's that's exactly what i was thinking with the um the lack of pruning i wonder if that's like you're saying

these these side streets and we use the term disabilities but like they're what are they seeing on these side streets what are they experiencing on these side streets of the of the brain um and there's a lot of crossover with, I think one of the images up there at LESI is what happens when your brain's on like a psychedelic because you're getting this fresh snow. It's disconnecting all of these, again, the pruning for a little bit, and you're able to find new pathways. And that's why psychedelics for depression and things like that for PTSD have been huge because you're putting down fresh snow, you're finding a new neural pathway, you know, with things like addiction. It's like, you're not consciously making that decision every day to grab a glass of wine at five o'clock. Your brain is pruned to do

that. So if you have a lack of pruning, I wonder if that's why they're able to, again, see things that we're not able to see, process things, taste blue like that's i don't know it's i don't even know how to put it into words because it's so we talked about in the car it's so mind-boggling there's almost like this desperation in my opinion to like understand and i think obviously you know you're feeling that to a whole new level yeah yeah i mean yeah i don't know the answers you know these are you know again this is not my field of expertise there are many people that could you know talk about you know way more but you've seen the example your whole life up up close but yeah but it makes you it does make

you wonder are some of these savant skills um some of this stuff with telepathy, is that tied into the, uh, you know, the differences in the neural network that is, uh, you know, that are more prevalent, you know, maybe not, you know, not exclusive, but maybe more prevalent in, uh, in autistics. I mean, I don't know. I think that these are conjectures, but, you, but interesting things to think about. But Lily never mentioned anything directly as you guys were learning to do the spelling correctly and communicate with her, I guess, over a one to two year period, something like that, after you first figured this out. She never mentioned that she could read someone's thoughts or anything to that effect? No, no. She didn't lead with that

what'd she leave with no she just talked about yeah talked about you know what her thoughts and hopes and desires what she wanted to study things like that you know and i remember one time she was with one of her spelling partners uh and her you know her spelling um you know one of the practitioners and they ask her what do you want to study in college or what do you you know what do you want to study she's like you're thinking you're going to get a one word answer on a specific subject and she was like probably math because it's ridiculously easy that was her response you know she had another time uh working with the same person and it was um it's so great and that person is so so great with lily and uh we uh they were doing this lesson

on how what was her name um paleontologist Mary Anning I think she's a paleontologist from England I can't remember probably in the 1800s something like that probably getting all these facts wrong but anyway she was her

basically her father they like lived on these cliffs and their her father would rappel down and dig into the cliffs and pull out these fossils, and then sell them at the roadside. And so she would do that with her dad. And then her dad passed away, and they had kind of lost income for the family, but they had those little novelty shop tourists who would come in and buy these little things. That's how they supported the family. So she kind of kept doing that after her father passed. And eventually, you know, got to where she, I can't remember,

she actually like maybe found a full fossil of a dinosaur or something like that or put, you know, pieced together one. But just kind of, you know, got well known in the, you know piece together one but just kind of and you know got got well known in the uh you know paleontology world and that that that that part and so she was spelling with with this person and they had gotten to the point you know they kind of asked her well what would you do if uh you know you had to do that like if and you had to kind of support your family. And, you know, what would you do to support your family? And she's like, I would sell my brother's toys. Business woman.

And then later they asked her, what would you do? So they wouldn't let her publish because she was a woman. They were like, we're not going to let you publish in our journals about your finding of this full fossil, this dinosaur. They had some interesting rules. Yeah. And so I think my daughter was like 13 at the time. And so she was like, what do you think about that? And so we're kind of in the back of the room.

And they're up at the table. And we're kind of sitting in the back about 10 feet away. And so we can kind of in the back of the room. They're up at the table, and we're kind of sitting in the back about 10 feet away. And so we can kind of see how she's spelling. And so she just spells B-U-L-L-S-H. And this is like this slow-moving wreck that you can see. S-H-I-T. So it's like proud father moment. My daughter's first curse word that she spells.

Anyway. That's awesome. That is cool. And what's the – I don't want to overjump around too much here because there's so much on the bone. But the focus of Lily within the telepathy tapes was on her relationship with John Paul. And you guys, as the way I understood it, was you moved to Atlanta when she was maybe like 12 or something like that. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah, I think it was later that year after the, after the bullshit episode.

So we, we were kind of looking, you know, at the time we were living in central Washington, you know, state, yeah. Washington state, beautiful, beautiful place, you know, love the people. And, but there is for Lily and what her needs were, we just weren't, you know, we just kind of newly discovered that she had all this ability and trying to figure out, well, what's the best environment for her to be able to flourish? And so we started looking around at the time. And there's more communities now, but at the time, kind of the biggest non-speaking autistic communities that are spelling to communicate were in D.C. and Atlanta. And so we just kind of looked around at both and that kind of thing. And then we kind of discovered this school in Atlanta that was kind of a middle school that was kind of elementary to middle school, and they were teaching basically on grade level or above, utilizing the letterboard spelling to communicate.

For all nonverbal. Yeah, so they had speakers and non-speakers in there. Okay. It's kind of a mix, but they would teach identical to both, and they would have supports and communication partners for the non-speakers to be able to express their, you know, to participate and demonstrate their knowledge and, you know, create. And they had a full gamut, you know, of, you know, literature, art, math, science, everything. And so, yeah, we went to, uh you know started looking around and checking that out and that's i think one of the stories in the um in the podcast kind of a form of the story of jp and lily's uh you know relationship is when we went there to visit we had like yeah the trip

down there was just total disaster you know and how we like actually trudged through and kept going and ended up making it was i don't know it's i question my sanity you know for doing what we did to get down there did you drive from washington state we flew but for some reason i don't can't even remember what it was or my work schedule or this that or the other karen and lily were going to fly down to memphis where her family was and then like drew and i were going to come or i was going to come down then that's your son yeah i was going to come down the next day um or something i can't remember but anyway uh karen and lily ended up getting lily got dysregulated on a flight and ended up making contact with another passenger. And then they got booted off the plane in Dallas.

And so then they had to – so they had flown to Dallas. And then they had to rent a car driving to Memphis from Dallas. And I think I flew in the next day to Memphis and we met there and then we drove down to Atlanta makes no sense to me now I have no idea what our

calculus was on how we planned that trip then I guess I'm completely suppressed interblocked and I don't know but it made no sense it was a disaster but It made no sense. It was a disaster. But we made it down there.

Like literally we drove almost all night. We'd get there in the morning in time to, you know, we'd kind of check into the hotel, kind of reorganize and then show up to school like at 9, 10 in the morning to visit the school and so while we're down there talking to the principal of the school lily goes to one of the classrooms you know just to check the classroom out situation so goes in there and she was just new environment just really dysregulated you know and the teachers are like asking her all these questions how do you feel blah blah and she's like spelling some but it's like getting dysregulated what do you mean when you say when you say dysregulated this means basically you kind of you know you still sometimes it's you know you you know bang your head against the wall or the table sometimes yeah they'll she'll literally will you know hit you know hit her leg sometimes

she'll like put a lot of pressure on her temple just you know just you know sometimes it's a full-on quote tantrum you know um although we didn't you know we don't you know use that term because you know for for many reasons but but yeah dysregulation is it's like the body is you know all the things that don't you know that you would think of being dysregulated sure but okay um so she's doing that and john paul gets up and it was like grabs a letter board or whatever and like hands it to the teacher or whatever obviously has something to say and uh he he spells out you need to let her chill and so and they didn't even know each other at that point they had just literally seen each other for the first time that day you know hadn't didn't know each other at all and they

that was that was the start and so and they're like 12 years old something like that so yeah lily was a year older than jp so they're like 13 and 12, probably something like that. So, yeah. So he was like, had Lily's back from the start. And she calmed down after that. Yeah, yeah. Wow. Yeah. And, yeah, I think they kind of let her alone, gave her some space,

let her, you know, wasn't demanding a task from her at that time you know and and yeah so it ended up yeah ended up going going well we ended up moving cross-country to do that and she was there for for a while and and um yeah kind of during that time you know we didn't see any of their interactions because it was just at school. Her and John Paul. Yeah. Yeah. So we weren't part of that.

We kind of knew Libby and Peter. Maybe we knew of them, but we didn't really know them well. We knew them as parents of JP or whatever. Right. But, you know, after a little while, I think one of her teachers was like, yeah, I think there's something going on there uh you know there's more than yeah just uh you know they're two students there's there's there's something actually you know going going on there and then kind of you know as as things progressed yeah they were like started communicating that they wanted to be boyfriend and girlfriend. And, you know, at one point, Lily spells, you know, as we're kind of going along, she goes, can, can JP wife me?

And I was like, just to be direct. Yeah. And I was like, that's what you guys want to do. Yeah. You know? And so we had, yeah. So that kind of progressed. And then we had instances where, you know, Lily would come to me and be like, can we see JP today? And so I'd text Libby and go, Hey, Lily wants to know if, you know, you and JP can, he and JP can meet, she and JP can meet up. And, you know, Libby would be like, oh, my gosh, John Paul just brought me his shoes and clothes and asked, can we go see Lily? Like at the same time so how would they so when they would when they would hang out

you know and i'm sorry if some of these are like kind of dumb questions i just don't have as much experience with with seeing us up close like how would they interact together because they're not verbal but are they is there like they're looking into each other's eyes a little bit or they're feeling that like the space around them. How would it really work? I mean, sometimes, yeah, they'd be looking at each other. Sometimes they'd be like holding hands. Sometimes like JP was always smelling Lily, like smelling her head or whatever.

JP or Lily was always hitting JP. So it's kind of, you know, it's funny to watch. And then there's other times where they would, like, sometimes we'd get all together with a lot of different people. And they would be just kind of pass each other and do a high five or just in different parts of the room. Or sometimes it would be like they didn't even spend a whole lot of time close together in proximity. But they were in the same room or across the room or in two different adjacent rooms. And, but they still just kind of be in their, in their presence. And a lot of people, a lot of them, a lot of our friends, they've, you know, they all articulate that they really like being around other autistics and like being

together. And, you know, even though you look at it and you think, okay, there's a bunch of individuals that to our eye doesn't look like much interaction is happening, but on their level, this being in each other's presence and all that kind of stuff is, you know, they love it. And so there's sometimes, yeah, there's, Libby tells a story about their and yeah liby's jp's mom uh that if um yeah there's times where they were very they'd be we'd be in the same house where we'd be over at their house there'd be a lot of people

there there's very limited amount of time where lily and jp were actually close together and at the end of it you know li, Libby had asked JP how it went, and he was like, oh, it was awesome, you know, being with Lily. Even though to our eye, they weren't even that close. But yeah, but they go on walks, they would go. Oh, they go on walks? Yeah, I mean, with a communication partner,

usually, you know, with supervision. Because we both, I know in the podcast, there's the elopement story with JP swimming in the ocean. But, you know, we've had a couple elopement episodes with Lily as well. That's when she'll just try to leave and go somewhere. Yeah, her body just take her off. We had actually three different times where she got out of her sight and we didn't know where we were.

That's got to be terrifying. We had to get police to help. And, yeah, it was absolutely terrifying. What did she go to do when she did that, one of those times maybe? Well, one of those times we had been talking about, okay, we're going to go out to eat. We're going to go. We're going to go. We're going to go.

And all this stuff, there's a lot of people around. And I don't know, someone left a garage door open or something like that. And while they're kind of gathering everything and going, I think Lily got the prompt that, hey, we're leaving to go eat and so she walks out the house walks down the street walks down the hill walks down to one of the busier intersections in the in the town and fortunately somebody found her you know and that was a short-lived one you know somebody found her and and called the police and then when we called the police they're like oh, oh, I think we might have her. So we were pretty much no. And then another time I was walking with her,

and she took her shoe off and threw it in somebody's yard. And their yard was a bunch of bushes and stuff. So I go in, fetching the shoe. And meantime, the owner of the house, who we actually knew from all the walks that lily and i would go on you know starts coming and chit-chatting and i you know look up and i'm like oh crap you know lily had gone around the got around the corner and i'm like did she go left did she go right and so i run after and i 50 50 guess wrong and uh she got out of the site and that was that was the scary one she was gone

for like three hours and what did she say like once once you do find her and you're back like what's the communication like i was asked her what she felt the whole time and she spells total freedom the story that i was told in the celebrity tapes with john paul planning on their vacation yeah he was gonna go for a night swim that's the one that like i mean like it got me tearing up because that's all he wanted and it was so and again your empathy libby's empathy to understand that kind of thing is incredible because it's yeah i can't imagine how terrifying it is yeah it's terrifying to us and she's saying that is total freedom but even like you said with the garage door it's like that when the garage door open, that's a chance, like I would imagine in her head, chance for freedom, you know, to be watched at all times to be, you know, they already feel, I'm making assumptions, but it sounds like they already feel like they're in a cage mentally where they can't get their words out to be in a cage physically to where got to make sure all the doors are locked got to make sure this that like how does that like when in in some of these

instances one of them you mentioned where someone found was able to find her and then i guess like bring her back how does how does lily deal with you know like a stranger suddenly being like oh come with me who's obviously trying to help in this case. But is there, is there, does that scare her that someone's like trying to guide her back somewhere? Cause it seems like that would almost be difficult to get her back to where she was coming from. If it's not you personally doing it. Yeah. I don't know. I haven't, I haven't asked her that specifically, you know,

there's, there's so many things that, you know, you right, go ask her when you get home. There's so many things. You think, oh, people ask me stuff all the time. I'm like, actually, I haven't asked her that. I don't know. But now knowing what I know about how she can sense people and read thoughts and different things like that that i imagine she has an idea of who's you know has good thoughts and who doesn't and um but yeah i haven't asked specifically yeah so i don't know but it's definitely one of the things for parents i mean just the life we

live are we're constantly on this hyper vigilant status that we're you know we're constantly on this hypervigilant status. We're constantly in kind of fight or flight mode too. We're constantly, what's going on? If it's too quiet, where's Lily? What's happening? Yeah, the story Chris was referring to as well with JP in that scenario where he left and went for a night swim. We're also talking about a kid. He was like six foot eight or something like that as well. And his mom's supposed to be watching him 24 seven.

I think she had a great quote in there where she said, you know, I'll sleep next to him and everything. But that's the thing. Like you fall asleep, you're a human being. And he might just get up when you're doing that. And he could go somewhere. Like, I can't imagine, you know, he's also like physically huge. It's matching like a mom, like trying to wrangle that.

Yeah, and if he wanted to do something, you couldn't stop it. Yeah. It's just like physically – yeah, it's impossible. Like once he got something in his head, it was like, yeah, okay. We'll have to wait it out. But it's – yeah, it's happening. Yeah, so. It's happening. Did you, as JP and Lily developed their relationship and were going to school together and everything as, I guess, like young teenagers, adolescents, you were obviously getting to know Libby, you know, JP's mom and the husband as well, I guess. Yeah, Peter. And so did they – they never discussed with you their understanding of what they thought JP was capable of?

We always just kind of said, oh, they have a connection. They have a connection. Connection. They have a vibe. They have a – they understand each other. And it was kind of – and the telepathy thing for us you know we just it's one of those things that like we didn't have a category for it we weren't even thinking it wasn't really on our radar so they weren't thinking of that either i think they were thinking it more they were

obviously they were thinking it way more and had tested it and and had been involved with it because they were involved with the they were involved with kai when she started this about two you know i can't remember maybe 2022 kai dickens the telepathy tapes so she was involved uh they were involved from the beginning so they were way more clued in than we were you know i we just had little snippets lily would do something or she would i'd get a text about something and then i'd ask lily about something and she would refer to something on the text and I'd be like, how did she know that? Did she, did she see my phone? Did she, she must've seen my phone or read it.

But then, you know, thinking back now, I'm like, no, she wasn't even, I was holding my phone here and turned it off. And, you know, she wasn't in any line of sight to be able to see it. But then she would spell something, demonstrating knowledge of what that text was about or other little things. And I'm like, I think she just read my mind. I think she just read her mind. And so it was kind of, but still, even with those little episodes,

we just kind of like, oh, okay, that's kind of weird. But we weren't like, okay, our child is telepathic and now we will – That's a huge jump. Yeah. You're like, wait a minute. This went to straight ESG like overnight. Yeah. So I – yeah, we didn't – I guess we were kind of slow.

No, no, no. I wouldn't think that. Your mind doesn't go to something like that because we've been told, we've been programmed to believe, perhaps righteously so at different points, that something like that is hypothetically impossible. Like that's not of this earth. Yeah, it was the realm of – yeah, it was just the realm of sci-fi. Yes. The realm of psychics and it was yeah it was not it was not on our radar

and you never know to look for it you know you never know to like it's it's the example that popped in my head is like if you and again this is different this you know who knows if this exists but like if your child pops up on the other side of the house your first thought isn't they're teleporting you know it's not like like you wouldn't think oh she's reading my mind yes did she did she go on my phone last night you know it's like yeah no you come up with a rational explanation for it they must have climbed out the window went around that yeah that's how they got there because they didn't walk through the they didn't walk through the living room because i was there and you know but yeah they come up with an alternative explanation yeah but but livy and peter were yes involved with

kai's potential hypothesis in making this podcast as far back as 2022 which is before you i'm doing the timeline my head obviously it's before you ever had the conversation with them so when they got involved with this even though you guys are so intertwined in each other's lives you both have children who suffer from the same exact disorder they weren't discussing it libby was always saying they i know they talk to each other i know they have a connection i know you know they communicate and we were like i believe you know i believed i was like i you know it wasn't like i didn't believe it's like i believe yeah they have a communication that they have. They have unspoken communication, unspoken bond, all that, you know, totally was like, yeah, I'm on board with that. It's just like, but to the level of what was happening, it was just not my brain didn't have a category for it.

But so that's why I always say we knew they had a bond. We knew they had a vibe. We knew whatever they communicated on whatever level it was. And not thinking that they were literally thinking full thoughts, full sentences, full dreams, probably at levels that are even beyond our limited of what we you know how we communicate verbally you know um that that yeah yeah now now it's definitely changed but it was you know but yeah we we didn't really know to the level it was but they libby every single time would say that What really blew my mind about the full series that Kai did is, number one, she had a psychologist and then at a different point various scientists who were part of these double-blind experiments where they would – I guess that of these nonverbal autistic children were and run these spelling tests and do it in a way where everyone was satisfied that they could there wasn't any type

of signaling or as you described earlier like the phenomenon of like moving the ouija board if you will or something like that to try to get the intended answer and i would i would listen i would literally like go back like like i'd listen to it and then go back to see if I missed something because it's just audio obviously on a podcast. And these kids would seemingly get it right and they'd be able to read what their parent was thinking. And it's so amazing to me because it's this potentially untapped thing. thing but on the one hand you have all these different parents around the world because she was going to different countries and stuff like that who are experiencing the same phenomenon or at least thinking that maybe they're experiencing the same phenomenon with their children who all suffer from the same affliction and then on the other hand you have let's say like the academic

science community who it seems to me in response to this podcast are just completely shutting it down and not willing to at least look at this. Scientists have seemingly accepted the whole savant syndrome where a child who might be autistic could just suddenly be like a math genius without any training or be a music genius on an instrument without any training. And that is something that is clearly given to them from the universe, if you will. It's not natural. It doesn't have a natural explanation and they're okay with that but when we start talking about another version of something like that in this case it would be maybe communicating without talking telepathy they seem to be like putting the kibosh on it like no we don't even want to hear it you know does that frustrate you as someone who's now you know we'll get to when this really got on your radar to where you were looking this but does that frustrate you as someone who seems to have been able to see someone like JP who

can do this and then see it through your own daughter who can seem to do this? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it happens at two different levels, you know, now, because we've kind of had two, we've kind of gone through two, um, um, kind of two big moments of like ontological shock with Lily. And one of them was when she started spelling and everything was in there. Kind of that whole – our mind was blown and our whole world shifted. And then again now with understanding that, yeah, she communicates mind to mind.

She communicates telepathically. Yeah, that whole thing was kind of a shock as well. And, yeah, I mean, it's one of those things we have. I mean, there's, you know, even the science community, though, it's not a monolith either. You know, there is some segments of it that the idea of scientific inquiry, the inquiry and the inquisitiveness and the exploration of the unknown is kind of dried up. We study

what we can prove. We study what we can fund. We study what we can get funding for and we study what we can get a positive result for. And we've lost the scientific inquiry part, you know, and but then there's others that are studying it. And, you know. They get shut down though a lot, right? Some do. Yeah, yeah, some do.

And, you know, Dr. Powell certainly has had that experience for sure. And some is really shut down. But then you've got other segments because you've got major universities that are also studying telepathy. A lot of them are doing it more on the kind of brain-computer interface level, similar to like the Neuralink, Elon Musk. Right. But they're doing stuff. There's DARPA programs that are doing studies like that, exploring telepathy. They were talking to dolphins in 91 at DARPA. That's all I'm saying. Yeah, and there's like UCLA, Stanford, UCSF, Mayo, like major

places are doing a lot and there's a lot of others too, I'm sure. You know, doing like, trying to come up with telepathic helmets so you don't have to have verbal comms in battle, you know, where they can just put the sensors within the helmet that will detect

the thing. Because, you know, every thought and all – like it's getting – you have neurochemical information happening and it produces an electromagnetic – It's energy. It produces an electromagnetic signal that then can be detected and they've done that where they – either EEG or even better, they got like electrocorticograms where they literally put the electrodes on the cerebral cortex. And that gives a higher resolution of the signal. And then they have either the person think of a thought, think of a letter or whatever. And then the sensors pick that up, they encode it, and they reproduce the letter on the computer. And the problem with that is you've got to do a craniotomy and take the skull off and put the probes right on the cerebral cortex. I think Meta actually just last week did a study, non-invasive, if you want to look it up.

Yeah, let's find that. They had people typing, and it predicted at like like an 80 clip what they were going to type so it's like they gave them a script but before their hands even touch the keys they're and again they're all wired up on the outside of their brain so yeah so at one level they are studying it and on another level they're shutting it down uh you know depending on uh depending on the context depending on the context of what it is and that was a great point, Julian, that you said it's fully accepted with a traumatic brain injury that somebody wakes up and starts speaking French it's fully accepted

I didn't even think of that so it's why are we picking and choosing you see the one I posted the other day the lady who woke up with a Chinese accent yes exactly they're like, say battery charger it's like they're like say battery charger she's like british her whole life yeah all right so let's see which one are we looking at here

this is the one metadata should we do this third one is that right yeah let's do that one gigazine yeah all right so meta announces technology that uses ai and non-invasive magnetic scanners to predict input text from brain waves with up to 80% accuracy. I guess this is just like a... Oh, go down. Go down. I see it. Go down a little bit. Right there.

All right. So building on previous research in decoding image and speech recognition for brain activity, Meta has announced a study that decodes sentence generation from non-invasively connected brain waves. In the study, they were able to accurately decode up to 80% of characters and reconstruct complete sentences and brain signals alone. Another study published by Meta details how AI can help understand brain signals, explaining how the brain effectively translates thoughts into sequences of words. Every year, millions of people suffer from brain injuries that prevent them from communicating. Exist existing approaches have shown that communication can be restored through neuro prosthetic device that send command signals to an ai decoder this is getting

brave new world out here however invasive brain recoding techniques such as stereotactic electro i'm not gonna try to say that and another one i'm not gonna try to say electro something require neurological intervention and are difficult to scale with non-invasive approaches have typically been limited by the noisy complexity of the signals they record in the first study published by meta they used meg and eeg non-invasive devices that measure magnetic and electric fields caused by neural activity to record 35 healthy volunteers as they type sentences, then trained a new AI model to reconstruct the sentences from the brain signals alone. The AI model was able to decode up to 80% of input sentences from MEG recordings of participants' brainwaves as they typed,

which is at least twice as good as EEG-based predictions. Wow. That's wild. Yeah. So, I mean, Zuckerberg's computer can do it, but our brains can't? That's what I'm saying. And it's – Alessi, can you actually pull up the Wikipedia page of the telepathy tapes? Because I want to read one of the guys who, like, broke this down. Because part of my issue is you also

weren't there for the experiment so how can you properly break down whether or not they were legitimately tested or not if if you weren't there to oversee it which which actually would be an argument against them and for them at the same time it's like you almost can't do it but if you scroll down unless there's a section i think called like controversy or something like that wait go up oh down down a little bit all right so here we go that's it the vice part so after seeing the short video clips from the website both jonathan jerry of mcgill university office for science and society and psychologist Stuart Vise independently concluded the tests are derived from rapid prompting method, a variation of the scientifically discredited technique of facilitated communication. For Vise and Jerry, with the parent holding the

board that the child needs to point to to construct a response or holding the child themselves, the most likely explanation is that the parent is steering the child to the correct answer, consciously or not, through the ideomotor effect. About facilitated communication techniques, the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychology states that, quote, studies have repeatedly demonstrated that FC is not a scientifically proven valid technique for individuals with autism, unquote. The American Psychological Association and the American Academy Now, at first read of that, of facilitated communication and the presence of paranormal abilities in non-speaking autistic individuals, unquote. Now, at first read of that, I also think that's inaccurate because the parents weren't always in, in, in the way I understood it and correct me if I'm wrong here, guys, but parents weren't always like holding onto the kids or, or, or like directing them at all.

Like I even saw a video, I think on the trailer of the telepathy telepathy tapes because it was originally gonna be a documentary so she was filming it where one of the kids i forget which one it was was literally sitting alone at the table and everyone's behind him and they're they're showing prompts that the camera can see and he can and he's correctly doing it yeah no i mean that that right there is kind of the rub of where, you know, where we are with the spelling and whether, and the authenticity of it. And, you know, kind of going through, and I think, you know, I think episode eight of the podcast kind of talks about the whole spelling controversy and kind of the levels and kind of the generations of spelling starting with the facilitated communication.

And that's the one, you know, there's supportive typing. Supportive typing? Yeah, that was kind of a form of facilitated communication where, you know, and that's kind of the earlier methods where they were taking different people and, you know, and it was in the physical support. And so what people do is the idea behind that is you're providing proprioceptive feedback. You're providing a grounding and resistance. It's not like you're grabbing their arm and moving it to the letter. You're actually

holding the arm back or whether it's the wrist, the arm, you know, upper arm, shoulder, wherever it is, you're holding it back. You're providing resistance. Because part of the issue with at least my daughter and a lot of autistics are they don't feel their bodies. They don't have a sense of where they are in space very well. I mean, some of them even said they didn't know they had a body yeah as a keel talked about didn't even know he had a body but yeah my daughter recently just said i hadn't felt my body in 10 years you know so like knowing so wait she said in 10 years meaning she had felt it before but now doesn't that's fascinating yeah yeah and i don't you know i didn't go in you know depth and get a full history of that but yeah we we've always known and she's always had a super high pain

tolerance you know i remember even before she was diagnosed or no right after right after but you know she's probably three and she's just we're in the neighborhood walking on the sidewalk you know a bunch of people are gathered kind of in a cul-de-sac having a barbecue. She falls, skins her knees, bleeding, not a peep. And like the other little three- and four-year-olds are like, she didn't even cry. And so even from a young age, she's like her – I think both their pain perception is totally different and a lot of them have chronic pain and you know in some cases debilitating you know pain um you know because

they're the sensory system is just processing everything so differently interesting so it's like their nervous system is is changed by all all this because it doesn't run on the same pathways that yours or mine does. Right, right. And so going back, so that was – and they talk about a little bit of the controversy. It kind of had to deal with – it had to do with an accusation of sexual abuse and it went to the courts. And episode eight kind of talks a lot about that. And so, you know, before that, though, there had been over a decade of people doing this and people writing books and, you know, authorship and all this stuff. But then, you know, this big court case comes up and a couple of court cases and they create a test that then the autistic person is not able to perform.

And then they declare that all communication using spelling at all places at all times for all people everywhere forever is invalid. So, I mean, that's a pretty big. That's crazy. That's a pretty big jump, you know, because, I mean, you can create you can make a pretty that's crazy that's a pretty big jump you know because i mean you can create you can make a hoop that i can't jump through it doesn't mean i can't jump that's a bar yeah so um put that in a rap song yeah you know um and that's what they did they created a hoop that you know in certain specific situations these people did not you know, in certain specific situations, these people did not, you know, jump through the hoop. And then they declared it invalid at all times, all places for all people forever. And

meanwhile, there are studies that have demonstrated that spellers have done message passing tests correctly and those have been published you know so and kind of at every step of the way with and so that's the big sticking point with all this is authorship is this true authorship from this from the speller or is it a hundred% control and manipulation and influence from the communication partner? So that's the rub. And authorship is the main issue. And so they basically said, no, 100% non-authorship all the time, everywhere, forever. But in the reality, if you look at the data is actually we just have conflicting data you know we have some studies have shown that yep they do pass the passing the message

passing test other studies like yeah they haven't performed and they don't do it so you you know um we have that all the time in science we We have all that time where people do studies. There's data. Some of the brain connectivity research that they've done in autistics kind of there's some conflict in those studies. All those aren't uniform. There's some heterogeneity within the literature about that. No one's saying, oh, we've debunked differences in brain connectivity for all autistics. They're not saying that.

They're saying, hey, we have some discrepancies in the data. We need further study to sort it out. And again, we fully accept that there's things that you're better at than I am. There's things that you're better at than I am. There's things that you're better at than I am. Alessi's better at certain things, but we can't accept that with the telepathy community or the nonverbal community. Everybody needs to be perfect at this. The score is going to be 100%. One size fits all. And again, they talk about it in that way.

It makes sense. Yeah, and they're moving the bar every time. So first of the time, it's like, oh, well, you're you're touching the person and so you're moving it and you're influencing them and it's like okay well we'll develop a technique that doesn't do that we'll use verbal prompts instead of physical instead of physical resistance um and we'll do that oh no then you're moving the board and they're like okay we'll put the board in a stand and we'll step away and we'll put eye tracking glasses on the participant. And they will demonstrate that they are looking at the letter right before they touch the letter. No one's touching them.

The board's in the stand. No one's touching the board. And they're like, oh, well, you're in the room, so you must be sending them something. And it's never going to end. So they keep moving the bar every step of the way. Meanwhile, there's thousands of people that are understanding, and the number of spellers continues to grow. But it's just, yeah, it's really obnoxious.

And they're trying to, and the gaslighting and the DARVO tactics that that community uses against us, they say that we are stealing their voices when we're like giving them a voice. Stealing the voices of the nonverbal autistics by trying to raise awareness on this. And trying to give them a communication method that works for them, trying to give them spelling. Because they say, well, you should teach them sign language or you should teach them. Yeah, we tried that dipshit. Yeah, it's like yeah we did that for 10 years we did that we did your pecs we did you know the picture exchange communication

system meanwhile when they teach pecs at the beginning you know what they do at the beginning no they do hand over hand they grab their hand and they push the thing and like that's how they teach pecs at the beginning and you're like like – Standards for thee, not for me. Come on. There's something cool that Kai tweeted out. She was like what's – and this was somebody else's quote. But it was like what's more realistic, that you're tapping away that beautiful message that Lily typed up or that Lily is coming up with it? Like what's the – think about it.

Use your brain. Like that's – It's also – No, I'm a psychotic ventriloquist. That sounds about right. That's what I am. That's a good title. Yeah.

It's not like I would – if I were – and I can't imagine it. But if I were a parent of someone like Lily and there were even a possibility, not even saying like that this is guaranteed to be true or whatever, but there's a possibility that there's something beyond that through what she's dealt with her whole life, she can – almost like the price you pay for the gift of genius. Through that, you could discover something like this and people wouldn't even hear me out. It would piss me off a lot and what's really a shame about this aspect of the science community – and you're right. There are different aspects of it and there are some people who certainly would look at things like this from a scientific perspective and give it the time of day. But when you look at like some of where mainstream science is on things, what I kind of relate it back to is the old Carl Sagan point about children and curiosity. Have you ever heard this? What he said? It's probably back in the 90s.

So he was talking about how when you go to a kindergarten class and you let the kids ask questions, their questions are amazing. They're like, you know, why is the sky blue? Why is the grass green? Why do we breathe in the air? What's going on there? And when you go to then, you know, maybe like a 12th grade class, they're quiet. They don't ask any questions because they're afraid that some of these questions are stupid. And so what he said

is something horrible has happened in the system between kindergarten and 12th grade where we've kind of beaten out the light from kids to wonder and have real wonder like the actual word itself of of the world around them and what goes on in it and i think about this from the realm of the scientific community itself because like listen i understand things require proof and things require scientific research and and the scientific method and a, and the scientific method and a process. I'm okay with all that. That's fine. You know, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence for sure. But it feels like in that peer review culture, if you will, we've, we've, they've kind of beaten out the, the, the light that science is supposed to be,

which is it, it's supposed to be asking crazy questions. And you don't always have to get the answer that you want. You know, you might not get to where the crazy possibility is, but asking the question shouldn't be frowned upon. And it feels like in some of the response we've read here and in some of the response I've seen to, you know, this is just one example, what Kai Dickens has done here with you guys. It feels like we are seeing that resistance in places. And I don't like yeah yeah i know dr powell responded to the the mcgill article oh she did yeah yeah so she had posted and there's a uh yeah it's published uh published in-depth response to uh to their can we google that dr powell responds to mcgill let's see if we can give her respect because we read what they said so let's read what she said dr powell you keep referring to is yeah

she was featured throughout the telepathy tapes diane hennessey powell um she had a she had a response and yeah i read it when it came out and. And yeah, my brain can hold on to some stuff and some stuff it doesn't hold on to as well. But yeah, she had a response. It was pretty lengthy and in-depth. So I don't know about... Is this it? Yeah, it looks like it.

Rebuttal to the first half of Jerry's critique? Yeah. Is this it? That looks like it. Rebuttal to the first half of Jerry's critique? Yeah. Is this it? That looks like it. Yeah, that looks like it. Okay, so this is really long. Let me read. I'll read the first part here, and then what we'll do is we'll put the link for people in the description so they can read this whole thing.

Yeah, I think this would be too hard to scan on the fly and find the… Copy, paste, chat, GPT, summarize it. Yeah. You know what? Actually, fuck it. Try that. Let's do – that's why you're here, Leslie, coming up with the good ideas. Wow, that's long.

Yeah, yeah. But, I mean, it has to be. I get it. And she has references. That's great. That's great. Yeah. All right.

So we're going to try this on the fly people we haven't it's the first time we've done this on the show using chat gpt to summarize i wonder if it's like an open up with like some sort of you know political opening dr powell who is viewed as a psycho scientist had this to say yeah what ai are you using yeah he's using chat gpt okay is this the response itself alessi right there what was your question summarize this summarize this whole thing yeah okay so numerous meta analysis have demonstrated small but consistent effect sizes and control psi experiments modern parapsychological experiments now incorporate advanced statistical techniques pre-registration protocols and rigorous double

blind methodologies to minimize potential biases and sensory leakage so i guess she's responding to what they're saying about how it could be guided right there in contrast jerry's technique seems to rely on outdated assumptions about the field rather than engaging with contemporary research i would i would probably agree with her on that by neglecting the methodological strides made by parapsychologists and failing to present strong counter evidence jerry's argument ultimately falls short of the rigorous skepticism he claims to champion so she obviously in this with all the references and how long we saw she goes into clear detail as opposed to a chat GPT, just kind of like, you know, trailer. Chat GPT agrees that his critique was lazy.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's, chat GPT's agreeing. I guess you got to take the victories where you can get it. But you guys had, you had said this earlier. I can't remember if we were talking about this off camera or on camera so sorry if it's repeated but you guys had the initial conversation

with libby and peter after john paul's death right where the word telepathy actually comes up the depth of our understanding it so we kind of had that uh knowing that jp and lily had this communication you know on this level that was beyond you know words and and we kind of knew that they had this connection we kind of had you know we had our glimpses of like man did she just read our minds we had those things but yeah it really came you know um to the forefront when when jp passed and can you tell that story if you don't mind this this was really this was pretty wild yeah so very tragic yeah i mean it really lays it out in episode nine and i i honestly don't even know how libby did the episode I don't know how you know

how she I could I don't know if I could have gotten through you know answering Kai's questions and narrating and reliving you know that day but but yeah basically JP you know passed he was um in the um in the hot tub you know doing what he does all the time you know our kids love both jp and lily and you know love water and um you know they uh so jp was in the hot tub like he'd done a thousand million you know a thousand times before um he was constantly in the water they had a little pond in their backyard that he'd swim in obviously he wanted to do his free swim in the ocean but he was uh yeah and libby was just exhausted and you know took a nap and just uh he uh was in the hot tub and uh you know don't know exactly you know you know what happened whether he you know jp also had seizures yeah they said he had a seizure so i mean the thought was that he had a seizure and in the hot tub and slept under the

water and uh yeah he was all of a sudden it was silent is that scary strange silence and you know they went outside and he was he was there in the hot tub and they you know called paramedics you know tried to resuscitate them and you know worked on for you know quite a while but uh yeah he passed and it was just it was devastating to uh to all of us and our community and um we you know after that we um for the next two weeks we were you know andby and the family they didn't even think about like funeral or that time they put that off for a while

you know for a few weeks but for those next two weeks literally there's people at her house around the clock her friends we were all there we'd gather there every evening somebody would bring food and we were just there together'd gather there every evening um somebody would bring food and this we were just there together we'd go with lily every every night and you know it's just a really

really healing thing for everyone you know i think for lily and for libby to you know for the two women in jp's life that they that he loved the most that they were you know able to be together for those two weeks um it was yeah it was it was amazing and just being able to be be with them and I think you know our culture doesn't do death very well and I think a lot of cultures have that, have that where the friends, family, community comes together and does that. And to be able to have that was an amazing gift. And during that process, as we're there,

so we're talking and Katie and Houston are there and everyone is there is there and so they start you know talking about the the documentary and they're like what documentary are you talking about and so you know katie showed us a little sizzle reel that uh it's on the telepathy tapes website it's one of the videos i saw you know you're like wow yeah and then we started talking about it yeah and we're like yeah well we knew there were some funny things that lily was you know we had some funny instances where it feels like she's reading her mind but we didn't know to this level and so we started getting you know getting involved that's where we got

connected to kai started talking with her did you talk to lily about this yeah so i started talking about lily and so she was like yeah so then i started testing it with lily so i started okay well what am i thinking of and she'd spell it what what number what you know and i start asking her questions in my head you know and she'd answer them what kinds of questions like pretty basic stuff questions in my head, you know, and she'd answer them. What kinds of questions? Like pretty basic stuff? Just basic stuff that I, you know, I just think of any random question, but I wouldn't verbalize it. But, you know, whatever.

Just in my head, I'd think, you know, what did you have for dinner or whatever, you know. You know, it's just simple, you know, did you have for dinner or whatever you know um you know it's just simple you know simple things and then i would not verbalize it but i said what do you have for dinner and then she would spell spaghetti or whatever you know she would give the answer not just repeat you know whatever uh you know whatever i said she'd have to give the answer but i you know i could be like okay what word am i thinking of and be like rumple still skin you know and she would spell that you have to give the answer. But I could be like, okay, what word am I thinking of? And it would be like Rumpelstiltskin. And she would spell that. That's got to be pretty shocking when she starts spelling out what you're thinking. Yeah, and then the next day I was listening to my mix at work.

And the song came on, and I was like, okay, I'm going to do this one. Because nobody – this word doesn't even exist. This isn't even a real word, but it's the title of the song. And unless you're like a big Isaac Hayes fan or, you know, or like a big public enemy fan where, you know, like they sampled this song and black steel steel in the hour of chaos you know shout out to chuck d anyway profit you know what you're a true atlanta man i can tell anyway well he's the prophet of our generation so or my generation i think my generation is a little different than

you guys um he um yeah so you don't know this word this word doesn't exist unless you are you know unless you're um know those deep cuts of both of those artists but yeah i was like okay what word am i thinking of and she spells out hyperbolic syllabic esquadalimistic you know whoa and i'm like okay so that's that's real because that's not even a word and if you can spell that out that's uh that's real so that was kind of what i i kind of quit just randomly testing her after that you know but we do sometimes i still ask her questions in my head and she answers and she'll answer you know answer. Do you have to be with her to do that? Do you have to be in that energetic field with her?

Have you ever thought of something? Well, Lily describes that if she's in a room, she can sense or hear pretty much everyone's thought in the room, which is kind of mind-blowing to me. And then people she has a close relationship with, she can do that at distance. Because she's doing it with John Paul. She's doing it with John Paul. Yeah, we're going to get to that in a second. She's done it.

Yeah, and she's done it with me with others you know um so there's a uh there's so there it's kind of a both and on that it's not like any so any you know if you're in the space in in a quote energetic field or whatever that she experiences that and and also like i said at distance for people she has a close connection with just to go back for one sec because i i want to dig into that chris because this we're getting towards like the hill here what's going on there that really blew my mind but when when jp died what how did Lily process that? Obviously, she's devastated, but what was that conversation like and how did she deal with that? I mean, yeah, it was devastating.

I mean, she was completely devastated. I mean, they were planning, they wanted to get married. They were planning, you know, planning a life together. You know, I hadn't, and I was, you know, I started thinking and I was probably within weeks to months to like start to talk to Libby and Peter about, hey, what do we, how does this look? What do we do? Do we buy a property to a couple of houses? Build a compound?

Because they just both required 24-7 support. And you're like, what does this even look like? How do you navigate this? There's no model for this. I don't know. So they were planning all their life together. They were planning to be married. They wanted to – I mean, they knew their life wasn't going to be typical in any way.

But they – yeah, they wanted all those things and so they were going to get some of those same things that you were first thinking about all the way back when right when lily was diagnosed about would she ever get to and now you're at a time where you're like all right it's not gonna be the same but like there's there's some beautiful lights at the end of these tunnels. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, the things we thought were dead had kind of come back to life, you know. And yeah, it was – so yeah, it was completely devastating. And she has a group of other autistic girls that are about her age and they – kind of the day program kind of thing that she goes to twice a week is with with them and so they did a lot of just supporting lily and processing and all of them would be sharing you know what they were going through and what they uh you know kind of helping Lily grieve. And, you know, Lily, I think it's on the website.

It wasn't really in the podcast, but, yeah, Lily wrote a eulogy for John Paul. And, you know, I think one of the recordings or the audio recording, I think, of it on the website. On the Telepathy Tapes website? Yeah. Can we pull that up? She wrote a eulogy for him. Telepathy

tapes. There's a lot of different stuff she let's see. Okay. Alright. We can't do that. That's too much right now. Yeah. I don't do that. That's too much right now. Yeah. So, yeah, I don't have it readily called. That's amazing that she wrote the eulogy for him.

Yeah. So both Houston, Houston kind of gave a little speech. And I don't know when we get to the film documentary how much of that will be uh included or not but uh um the um i'm not sure i have it yeah i don't think i have it up here readily the did she know i'm trying to remember from that episode maybe i'm getting her mixed up with another person in there but wasn't it like someone, whether it was you or someone else, went to tell Lily that John Paul was gone, she said it first or something like that? Like John Paul, she put it in an interesting way. Yeah, well, I think, well, there's some other people that other people evidently knew before he passed.

Lily said she felt it, felt him pass as it happened. Some I think some of the stories in the in the in the podcast are that some other autistics had sensed it. Yeah. Beforehand, that it was had a premonition that it was going to happen. Lily didn't have that. So she was kind of caught off guard with that. But she said she did sense him go. There was also John Paul seemed to sense it too. There was a – I mean it was obviously like it's tragic.

There was also some like strange beauty in it, if you will, though, with how it went down. Because I think he came in and like smiled with his mom and touched her on the arm. And then, you know, she went and took a nap. He went down to the hot tub and the rest went down as you described it. But it was almost like he had been talking about he didn't want to feel the pain anymore or something like that like it was almost like he planned for this to happen i mean i i you know which sounds wild to me because you can't really plan a seizure but yeah or he just knew you know or just yeah maybe that's a better way to put it inherently knew it was gonna happen

yeah i mean libya when we talked to her, you know, hadn't really talked to much more than what is kind of communicated in the podcast, you know, about, about that, but that there is, uh, you know, and I, uh, you know, I feel like just the time that we were able to all spend together afterward, just, you know, being able to process that and all mourn together and just, you know being able to process that and all morn together and just you know kind of understand and there's you know um yeah and just yeah i don't know there's so many things about that that are still mind-boggling to me even though you know i have personal experience through lily for part of you know, some of it is still

like mind blowing to me. That's, that's in the podcast because it's not, um, like all of us have a little bit different experience. And there's, there's some things in the podcast that I'm like, that's not our experience. And that is, wow, that's blowing my mind. I don't have, I don't have a personal context for that. And this is a, this is amazing amazing so could part of that include what i was referring to like the quote-unquote hill yeah yeah i mean that's that's part of it but i've you know asked lily about that and um you know we've like asked like houston and other people and like they'll verify things that you know we don't have a way of like you know that communication there and it's um that's another part that's that's kind of mind-blowing you know too that they that they um they had that and not to me

it was fascinating is in the podcast how it unfolds is that the people from arizona talking about the hill yes and like we don't know those people from arizona you know people from you know wisconsin minnesota yeah they're like and they're you know using the same terminology and like kai hadn't told them about the hill. They're like in there, you know, so it's, yeah, that, that one, that one's still, you know, blowing my mind that that is, that that's part of it. You know, you know, Lily talked about that and, you know, in the, in the podcast, you know, quite a bit. Yeah, and then I guess they had one of the talk tracks afterwards was about the hill as well. So the way that I heard it described in there

through like the lens of John Paul was that he would go up to his bedroom, put like a lot of pillows literally over him, almost like to block out the world. And his claim was that he could communicate with these other nonverbal autistics, as you pointed out, who would be in totally different places. Cause we were talking about it earlier, Chris, you brought it up. It's like, they wouldn't even have to be in the same room. They wouldn't have to be in the same room. They wouldn't have to be in the same state allegedly with some of this stuff.

And they could communicate. And perhaps that also has something to do with how some of these kids were able to kind of know ahead of time that JP was going to pass. I don't know whether he communicated that to them himself or if it was just like they kind of felt it or whatever telepathically. But that really – that got meta for me when I was hearing that because I'm like, all right. Now you're talking about other realms potentially because when you read up on autism, it's funny. They don't mean it in the same way, but they talk about it like being multidimensional, right? Because it's a multidimensional disorder, meaning it has all these different possible layers to it that could affect you. But if you wanted to say that that's a synonym in a way for the fact that maybe there's a multidimensional reality that they experienced

throughout, which to be clear, that's not what they're saying, but I'm thinking that that way. It's just funny they use that terminology. You know, something like this certainly makes you think about that. But is it the reality that's all around us at all times that we don't have access to? Because when you're talking, like when that example was brought up, it's just like meditation. If you cut off the senses and if you cut off your constant stream of thoughts, what do you have the ability to recognize out there in that field of consciousness? And it's, you know, again, we accept that, but all these other things, we, we, not that we over complicate it, but it's, it's not that far fetched to, to a lot of these things. It might sound far

fetched, but then when you break it down, you know, I recently did a dopamine fast for 48 hours. So no phone, no movies, no screens, no anything like we're, our brains are constantly pelted with information 500 times a day, whether it's the vibrate in your pocket from a text, the energy that we're through technology being pelted with at all times takes us away from what's happening all around us. Like go for a hike for five hours without your phone. You see how you feel, you know, see the things that you notice the birds chirping in the distance. The, these things are all around us. It's just that we've gotten so far away from our, our bodies and our natural things. And it's such an, this topics fascinates me. I'm constantly in

all because it's, there's a brain body disconnect, but there's not, it's just like you said in the beginning, we have expectations of how we're supposed to see things, how we're supposed to talk about things. Is that how it's supposed to be? Or we learning? Cause in my mind, they're teaching us these things about things that we've lost the ability to do you know in the ancient history how did how are pyramids on seven different continents was there telepathy going on there like what's i could go on forever but it's just like it's a good point yeah i mean i think yeah i mean that i mean that i mean that's the those are the questions. I mean, is this, you know, are 3D reality here, you know, 4D?

Is this, yeah, are we starting to get to a point where we're understanding, yeah, this isn't, reality is bigger than we, you know know than we are currently experiencing and our is you know what our autistics are experiencing is that a just a you know are they experiencing more dimensions of reality and I would say that is the most plausible explanation

that they are I mean there's people that talk about you know, our reality like mathematically and, you know, they have the physics equations for it that this, you know, we live in an 11-dimensional universe and, you know, we experience maybe four dimensions of it and maybe one of the dimensions time we experience kind of wrongly maybe, you know, or incompletely,

or the way we experience isn't actually explaining, it's not linear, you know, maybe. Yeah, I don't know. I'm getting way out of my depth if I start talking about that. I think that's just the nature of this topic, though. A lot of it's out of our depth. But, you know, I think that's just the nature of this topic, though. Yeah, the yeah, I think that that is that they, you know, they see beyond the veil and they experience and interact beyond the veil. And, you know, we don't have all the categories for that. But also, you know, it's not new.

I mean, all the ancient, you know, a lot of ancient talking about, you know, additional dimensions that people tapped into periodically? You know, is that happening? I mean, I think, I don't have, you know, I don't know about answers, but those are the things. I mean, Lily, Lily describes her experience on the hill. The reason it's called the hill is because everyone that meets there, it's obviously not a literal hill, but that all the thoughts of the people there well up and mound up like a hill and that you know everyone is there both in their physical temporal realm and in an ethereal you know realm you know and i think it's interesting that you know we have this experience and you know our autistics talking about this experience we have other um you know

just in science you know the quote ether is making it making a comeback you know um and you know talking about you know space isn't empty that there's you know information fields you know all the you know quantum field and perhaps from beyond, you know, that the, yeah. And that there's multiple, you know, multidimensional, um, you know, all this, all the, whatever, all this stuff in the sky around here recently, you know, people talking about, you know, extradimensional, you know, beings or, or whatever. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's, it's, yeah, it's confusing. It's

mind blowing, but it's also, yeah. Are, are we, yeah. Opening up to understanding the reality that's always been around. Yeah. And when it got to the part, even, I would say this is like even far beyond what the Hill claim was, but when it got to the part about some of the other kids who allegedly could feel some form of communication from people who are gone who they didn't know that really makes you think about like all right is it just a different dimension versus like an afterlife versus life like what's our understanding of that and is our is whatever the price these kids pay for their lack of ability to do the same motor skills that you or I can. What's that genius there that they're able to tap into and can it go that far? I don't know if that one's true, but some of the stories are like, whoa.

How would that kid have known that about that person? They were talking about like great-grandparents who were dead 70 years ago in some cases it's like what and there's i mean there's a lot of research on uh past lives with children at the age of three four five years old or telling their parents about oh that was in my old house that burnt down and they're like you know there's a lot i mean there's a ton of research out there on that topic. And it's – these kids have this – because their minds – children are living in their intuitive sense. They're living in that connection and they don't have enough of the programming that we go through, through elementary school, middle school, high school, social scene, everything like that growing up. Good word, programming.

Yeah. Good word to use. like that growing up good word programming yeah yeah i mean it really is but they they have this connection and then you lose it because if you think about it kids are so tied in you know if they cry for food they get the food that's it that's something that they're still and again like i don't i still don't have the words to explain this as well as i would like to but it's children just know things. They know who's a good guy. Who's a bad guy. Yes. That's a very, like, we know that, you know, there's, there's something there that we all lose over time because we get, we think about our jobs. We, and it's all based around the ego. When you grow up and you have an ego that is developed, you want to fit into a box. I'm Julian Dory this, I'm supposed to

be on Wall Street, I'm supposed to be this. Who are you really supposed to be? And that's what I see that these kids have a connection to is what they're really here for, why they're here. And that's something like in my own life, like I, I mean, I've spent seven years going through therapy trying to answer these questions of myself. And that's why, you know, when I first heard the podcast, I reached out to Kyle right away. I found her number online and I was like, no, I don't need to believe this. I know this. And I can't tell you why I know this, but I know it. You know, it's hard to explain, but it's given even me personally.

Yeah. Yeah, it is hard to explain. I think pretty much, at least for me, I can speak for myself, but I would imagine other people that are involved in the podcast and the project kind of feel the same. I'm not even trying to convince anybody. I'm not trying to make somebody believe or change their worldview or anything. I'm not trying to do that. Literally, we're just explaining this is an experience that we have that's unexplainable. And you know, what is it? Is there something deeper that we can learn from it? Um, and,

you know, see the world more fully. Um, but yeah, I mean, the goal is not to convince or persuade or make, you know, make somebody turn somebody into a true believer in telepathy. But, you know, just like this, this is our reality. This is our experience. This literally is happening. Yeah. And just go from there. And if it is true, what does that mean? How many other parts of our reality are we not seeing fully?

But kind of going to your point about children, as I've kind of talked to people and talked to friends and kind of sheepishly say, hey, check out our podcast that we're in. Get your duct tape. Wrap it around your head before you start listening. Just so you don't spill any brains on the floor, you know, when your mind's blown. But it's about telepathy, you know. And so, but people have been like, yeah, you know, well, it's kind of interesting. We've had some weird experiences, you know. One of my good friends is like, yeah, we had this weird, you know, one night, you know my you know one of my good friends is like yeah we had this weird you know

one night you know a daughter was like three or four four years old or something and they we had been at some event and they fell asleep there and we you know drove them home they're sleeping the car we take them out of the out of the car they're asleep on our shoulder and kind of walking through the living room back to the bedroom and she uh looks up looks up in the corner of the room and goes hi angel and then puts the puts their head back on the shoulder goes back to sleep and they're asleep again by the time they lay them in bed you know and you're like what's going on there like what was that yeah and you know, you know, people were like, yeah. So, I mean, I don't know. Is there something?

Is there, going back to the synaptic pruning, is there, you know, that part of your brain that clues into that part of our reality? Does, you know, does, yeah. Does our, the way our society is made up, does that selectively prune that part out that is actually naturally innately part of our development? I don't know. several years of your daughter having a relationship with JP and this is when you can communicate with her too. Do you think that she experiences love at the same base, you know, I guess like visceral feeling that, that we do, or do you think that that's different as well, the way she experiences it? Well, I think she this at the level we experience and deeper. And I think that is one of the biggest things that the non-speakers want to communicate is that love is the key, is the baseline, is the key is the baseline is the um you know is the message and you know unity love um you know forgiveness that is everything you know that motivates everything that they uh that they do and when i was asking lily you know kind of of this week, I was like, okay, well,

do you want me to make sure we communicate what do you want to make sure you, you know, you say and, and all that, you know, and she, at one point we were talking, I can't remember talking about a different subject, but she was like, please tell them about love, you know? And so last night I, uh, yeah, let's, let's see here. Um, last night I got, uh, um, so yeah, I was like, okay, what's our, we're going to talk about love.

We're going to get your statement out there. We're going to tell you, tell the world what you have to say about love and so it's not long it's short but take your time this is what uh this is what she said um she goes love outlasts power love your fellow human siblings everyone that's beautiful is beautiful. It's so simple too. It's, it's crazy. You know, I'm just living this through, I don't know, talking two and a half hours with you on a podcast and you've lived it for years and years and years now, but the evolution that you've gotten to experience from the initial outset of receiving a diagnosis on like your baby girl, that is probably devastating in a lot of ways

to then having to dedicate your whole life to treating that and again we talked about earlier like having the unknown of of where that would go but to you know it's not like these things are cured and and she deals with plenty of things that you wish you wouldn't have to deal with but to see the evolution of where she is now and the things that you've been able to learn about life through her, you know, and have that perspective on things that you can now share with people around the world through the telepathy tapes with Kai and through doing things like this and continuing to get her literal message out.

I got to think that there's something truly incredible about that. Like there, there's a, there's a trade off there that, that is actually a beautiful thing. Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. Well,

this, this has been awesome, Scott and Chris, thank you for, for putting this together today. It's I, I'm blown away by the podcast. I understand there could be like the actual documentary in the works as well,

which I think would be really cool to get more attention on this. But Scott, I really appreciate you running through the whole story with Lily and also sharing some of her words as well. Yeah, that's the most important thing. I mean, that's what I wanted to be here to share her words and get that out there. I mean, it's her story that she wants to to tell the world she wanted to tell her story of her and jp's love story um when it comes down to it do you have a picture of the two of them together um can you give that to us afterwards yeah if we have your permission i'd love to yeah put that up i'll uh yeah well i'll get one i it Yeah, don't worry about it right now.

It would take too long to scroll through my phone to find the picture. But yeah, we have a lot of them. Love it. All right. Well, we will put that up and I'm going to put the links to the telepathy tapes down below so people could check that out. We'll also put the link to Dr. Powell's response as well as the link to Chris's podcast, which I've been on as well. And I want to say thank you, Scott, for making this trip. Thank you, Julian.

Thank you, Alessi. Thank you to Kai for putting this all together. Kai's the one who got us in contact. You introduced me to both Libby and Katie, who I'll be traveling down to speak with all of you in Atlanta. But thank you to Lily. Thank you to John Paul, Akil, Houston. You know, we did the same thing. We talked about everybody. Yeah, me.

Yeah. All of them, yeah. Everybody. I mean, it takes such incredible bravery to do what you've all done. And through this, we understand that you are listening, you are processing, and it's reality shifting. But it's beautiful. So thank you.

Yeah. Yeah, well, thanks. Thanks for having me on felt. Um, yeah. Honored. Honored to be here. You had nothing to be nervous about. Yeah. I know. This was really good. Appreciate it. Appreciate it. All right. Everybody else, you know what it is. Give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace. Thank you guys for watching the episode. If you haven't already, please hit that subscribe button and smash that like button on the video. They're both a huge, huge help.

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