Julian Dorey Podcast - #296 - Boston Kingpin UNLOADS on Whitey Bulger, Rats & FBI Corruption | Red Shea

Episode Date: April 25, 2025

WATCH BONUS EPISODES ON PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/JulianDorey (***TIMESTAMPS in description below) ~ John "Red" Shea is an American former mobster from Boston involved in narcotics and an associate of crime kingpin Whitey Bulger and the Winter Hill Gang during the 1980s and 1990s. He was indicted on c0caine trafficking charges in 1990 and served 12 years in prison. RED's LINKS - BOOK: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0061232890?ref=cm_sw_r_ffobk_mwn_dp_5P2SY44SCFH14TVAZ41N&ref_=cm_sw_r_ffobk_mwn_dp_5P2SY44SCFH14TVAZ41N&social_share=cm_sw_r_ffobk_mwn_dp_5P2SY44SCFH14TVAZ41N&peakEvent=1&dealEvent=0&language=en-US&bestFormat=true&fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAaf0Ej0JQTXIqCcImubEXok1bTyf9eQLNr1B1GMcuMybTL7eC9kT0S-GQ0hMPQ_aem_XyxfLirrBxvbbgi-WdJ5Hg - WEBSITE: https://johnredshea.com/ FOLLOW JULIAN DOREY INSTAGRAM (Podcast): https://www.instagram.com/juliandoreypodcast/ INSTAGRAM (Personal): https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey/ X: https://twitter.com/julianddorey JULIAN YT CHANNELS - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Clips YT: https://www.youtube.com/@juliandoreyclips - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Daily YT: https://www.youtube.com/@JulianDoreyDaily - SUBSCRIBE to Best of JDP: https://www.youtube.com/@bestofJDP ****TIMESTAMPS**** 0:00 - Intro 1:09 - “Whose car we taking,” advising Mark Wahlberg, Boston Rats 7:48 - Whitey Bulger’s meetings w/ FBI Agents, Red’s stance on rats 15:01 - DEA & FBI talk on Whitey story; Whitey corners Red in basement 22:45 - Growing up in Southie Boston 24:59 - Red’s father dies, how Red viewed his mom & dad 28:44 - 5-year-old Red grabs knife (story), Red starts boxing 37:01 - Red’s fights w/ boxing legend Micky Ward, Red goes pro, Lou Esa story 44:47 - Red’s trainer (and drug facilitator), Red’s relationship w/ mom before death 49:56 - Red’s sister’s tragic death, Red’s pulls knife on older sister (story) 1:02:39 - Red’s mom dies & he honors her last wish, Red’s view now on his criminal life 1:07:06 - When Red learned never to rat on anybody ever 1:09:42 - Living in California, bisexual Dolphin attacks 1:15:43 - Red gets back into the coke business in Boston, Red get his own coke connect (story) 1:26:38 - Whitey’s guys pull up on Red 1:30:55 - Red meet Whitey for the first time (story), Red stands up to Whitey (story) 1:39:04 - How to cut c*ke 1:41:33 - Red becomes Whitey’s lead dealer 1:47:57 - The Winter Hill Gang, Irish Gang Brotherhood, Power, Doing Blow 1:57:15 - George Washington’s Boston Ploy 1:59:10 - Red’s family’s opinion on his criminal career 2:01:09 - Red’s meetings w/ Whitey running the business, “The Insult” story, Red emulates Whitey 2:16:17 - Steve Flemmi & Kevin Weekes become rats 2:19:34 - Red goes down (story) 2:30:20 - Red bailed out, Catching wiretaps 2:34:50 - Indictment comes down, FBI asks Red to rat 2:38:47 - Case gets put on back burner, Red’s attorney goes to Mass AG for help 3:43:54 - Red finds out Whitey is rat (story), Red still refuses to rat 2:50:24 - Red on the world’s biggest, filthy, cheese-eating, rat-b*stard Matt Cox 2:55:16 - Red’s dream about Whitey 2:57:18 - Whitey caught in Santa Monica, Red almost catches Whitey (story) 3:01:05 - Red accidentally almost k1lls Johnny Depp 3:07:09 - The Whitey Bulger Trial & Red’s involvement 3:10:53 - Whitey whacked, Red’s reaction 3:14:53 - Red walked the talk CREDITS: - Host & Producer: Julian Dorey - Producer & Editor: Alessi Allaman - https://www.youtube.com/@UCyLKzv5fKxGmVQg3cMJJzyQ Julian Dorey Podcast Episode 296 - Red Shea Music by Artlist.io Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When I was five years of age, two older kids, they were beating the shit out of me and spitting on me. I wanted to grab a weapon. I was enraged. My sister was there and she said, what happened? What happened? And I told her. One of the kids took off and ran. The other kid tried to run into his home. My sister followed him into the home, beating the shit out of him. And it was a coat rack behind the door. She took the coat rack and started beating him with the coat rack.

Well, that's when she grabbed me by the hand and she said, you're going to the gym and you're going to learn how to box. At age five? At age five. Wait, you went fully pro? Nine professional fights. Holy shit. Tough life.

That money, you know. But that said, yeah, I started in California. There was one particular guy that was the main trainer. He helped facilitate me selling. No way. The real money, if you will. He was running a boxing gym, but he was trying to create a workforce. Get this. Now it gets even worse. Talk about a rat bastard.

Hey guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five-star review. They're both a huge, huge help. Thank you. I need your help. You can't ask me about it later, and we're going to hurt some people. Who's cow are we taking? I had to start it off that way. Red Shea, welcome to the show, man. It's really, really good to have you and your lovely wife as well. Off camera.

We got you off. We got you off. Thank you for having me on. Of course. It's a pleasure. Of well. Off camera. We got you off. We got you off. Thank you for having me on. Of course. It's a pleasure. Of course. Thank you. You've had a very fascinating life.

I say that about a lot of people that have been in here, but you are someone who lived through one of the most notorious criminal empires of the 20th and into the 21st century and whitey bulger and also the oddest one in the sense that everyone at the top was a rat except you that is correct anyone at the top there were guys that were uh lower level that held their water that's for sure and i respect those guys and i and uh I also recognize them, of course. And I commend them for being men. But anyone at the top, yeah, no, they all became informants.

Yeah, I actually, when I was a kid, I watched The Departed when it came out, which you were just telling me off camera, you were an advisor on that? Yeah, I worked with Mark Wahlberg on The departed and, uh, that was a lot of fun. That was my first introduction to, uh, any type of movie business, if you will. How did you get, how'd you get hooked up with that? Well, Mark, uh, was interested in my story. And, um, so I, um, I met up with Mark and, um, we got to talking and then, um, you know, he helped me, uh, get, uh, my book deal with Hopper and Collins, which became a New York times bestseller. And he wrote the introduction to the book. No shit. Yeah. He's helped me out big time. You

know, when I stepped out of that, uh, that long vacation that I had, uh, of school of hard knocks. 12 years. Yeah. 12 years. Yeah. And it could have been longer. I mean, thank God for good lawyers and stuff like that. And money on top of that.

But yeah, no, Mark was, has been, he, Mark changed my life. I mean, he really did.

As far as, you know, get me to tell my story as a stand-up guy. And he actually was in the meetings with me when we were interviewing different publishers. He came. Mark did. Yeah, he came for five hours i mean wow yeah i mean it was amazing to get an a-league actor in there like that but he wanted to he wanted to um because he's a catholic guy and and he's a christian um he he wanted to see me do better in life after walking outside the, the, uh, those, those prison gates, if you will. And, um, and he knew that I was never a rat. And that was one thing that intrigued him. He respected that immensely. And, um, and he loved the story. He liked the story a lot. And, uh, he, he's

definitely changed my life around with, with, with me being able to write a New York Times bestseller. I mean, it's, it's amazing. It's life-changing to say the least. Do you ever worry about if something like that hadn't happened coming out of, you had come out of prison like a couple of years before that came out two, three years before, you know, if you didn't have anything, it could have gone wrong maybe because you didn't know anything else. Like you grew up in this. Was that ever like a fear that you'd go back to it? So I had a lot of time to think, obviously.

And I was getting messages and information while I was inside during my time like the man I was. And they said, you know, hey, listen, the FBI is going to be waiting for you. They're all going to be waiting for you. All these agents are waiting for you to come out. And they believe that you're going to take over, that you're going to be the new boss in town. And I figured so much. I mean, it was a no-brainer to know that.

And when I got home, my great attorney, who was on the John Gotti case, he represented Fat Tony Salerno in New York. His name is Cottonelli. Oh, no, so it's not Bruce Cutler. No, Tony Cottonelli. Okay. And he sat me down when I got home, and he says, do yourself a favor. Do me a favor.

Don't go back. I'm going to tell you why. Now, back at that time, he unraveled on how many informants that there were in Boston in the underworld. And there were hundreds of them. Hundreds of them. Hundreds throughout the years that the FBI had created throughout the years. And Tony Cardinale knew who they were and who their handlers were throughout every year that went on for the last, I want to say, 40 years anyway. How did he know that for guys that weren't, that hadn't already like turned over and had to testify in court? Because he broke the case open and they had to reveal who was, the government had to reveal who was a snitch at the time and who was cooperating in a confidential informant and stuff like that throughout the underworld.

Is that because of the whole John Connolly thing where he got caught up in it? So then they were like forced to because of that only? Yes, that was true to John Connolly, the corrupt John Connolly, FBI agent. And of course, Whitey Bulger being his main guy and foreman for years. Now, none of us ever thought in the underworld that Whitey was giving information. We all thought that he was getting and paying for that information through John Connolly. But it was not the fact in the end that Tony Cardinale had uh broken open and found out and so it was Cardinale like kind of blowing the whistle on it that then led to literal like

I would imagine court documents and hearings happening that forced the FBI to do this am I understanding that yes that is correct okay so when you were in and we're going to get into your whole backstory and obviously how this happened. But just from a high-level scenario on what you said there, when you were in, did you guys see and know that Whitey had a relationship even if it wasn't with – you didn't see it with Connolly, but he had it? You would be there for meetings when he would meet up with some of these FBI guys where you're running security and you think that he's just paying that guy off. But in reality, right in front of your face, he was actually doing the opposite. Is that what it was? No, he would meet John Conley at night. And one of the places he met him was a place called Castle Island. And it's a big fortress. And they made that fortress back in the George Washington days in the harbor out in the harbor of Boston.

So when the British would come in with their ships and to attack, they would have their cannons up there to to defend and defend the harbor of Boston. And he would love to go down there and go on to one side of it and speak and talk whatever he wanted to, because no surveillance device could capture any voice or anything like that. So he used to meet John Connolly down there at night. And plus you're out of the, you know, at nighttime, nobody's really down at Castle Island at night. They're down there during the day. And one of the biggest things that Whitey always said was nighttime was free camouflage. So he used all of these little techniques, if you will,

in surviving and getting through, getting information and giving information to John Connolly. Like a good fed, you could say. Yeah. Yep. And you never suspected in all the years? A good fed on John Connolly's? No, I was making a joke. Yeah.

I was like, like a good fed. Yeah, a good fed for maybe his whitey, the rat. I mean, you know, today I call him King Rat. And yeah, he was my boss. I looked up to him and stuff like that. But after what I found out and discovered and how I would never, ever rat on him, even after the fact that I found out that he was a rat, I could have came home earlier to my attorney, Tony Cardinelli. He said, I have to tell you, I what the the answer is going to be but if you want to cooperate with the dea not the fbi with the dea against whitey bulger you can come home early i had another five years to do five years yeah so i says listen i walked in a man i'm walking out a man you did i mean damn you do understand a lot of guys sitting in your seat right now especially on a microphone the same can't be said right for them i know that

and i have a problem with that a little bit of a problem not a big problem but a little bit of a problem you know a lot of podcasts will will have these guys on that cooperated. And I don't think that the people that are interviewing them are asking them the real solid questions, you know, because they don't want to hurt their feelings. They want to be a gentleman about it or whatever it might be. i can tell you this they should ask the real hard questions you got a guy like uh who's i don't even want to mention his name but i can't stand the guy but uh his name is gene barello i've seen him around i know you have now here's a guy who says oh any guy who's a stand-up guy and talks about his life and being

a stand-up guy and a mob or this and that, it really is a rat. No, no, absolutely, absolutely fucking not. Stand-up guys have the right to be able to talk about how to be a stand-up person, not a rat. This guy talks about, oh, I only ratted because they were on tape and they were going away anyway. You're still a fucking rat no matter what way you look at it, okay? So my point is this, Julian. When you're interviewing one of these rats, please ask him the hard question like a Gene Borrello

when he ratted on 12 people. Help rat on 12 people, whether they have tapes against him or not. He still testified. He still ratted against them, 12 people, and he put those guys away for life. Well, let me tell you something. When you ask these guys this question, and I'd appreciate it as an observer of your show, because I love your show. I think you do a great job with it. Thank you. But I would love you to say, hey, how do you feel today?

You weren't supposed to rat ever. That's the code. You never rat. But how do you feel today that you ratted on 12 people and they've all gone away and you did very little time very little time and you're out here walking while they're all dying in prison how do you feel about that today that's what i would like that asked oh i'll one up you we can do the whole chris hansen thing but instead of chris hansen it'll be you out there we'll be like i'm inviting a friend right now. And you can sit down right there and fucking ask him. That'd be hilarious. No, I see how seriously you talk about it.

Yeah. And you lived it. That's the thing. I lived it. And don't ever, ever, any of these, you know, these snitches, yeah, I've gone against them. I've talked against them. And I talked against any snitch. And they talk, oh, there's this guy, you you know whatever him he wasn't this he wasn't that

whatever that this is all deflection and projection and that's what these informants do they project and they deflect because they can't live with themselves because deep inside when they look in that mirror they see the person they really are a rat rat. And that's the bottom line. They really do. And they have to live with that. And they try anything they can to make themselves feel better because they, deep inside, they are living as a rat. And, you know, the funny thing about it is, Whitey used to say to me, or he had said to me, when I got indicted and I got arrested and he said it takes a strong person to reach inside themselves and say I'm here because of me. I'm here because of me, not because of you, not because of him or her. I'm here because of me because I made that decision to do these things.

And that was the guy telling you that. And that was the guy who played chess not checker checkers yeah wow that's heavy too to think about i i can imagine the anger because talking with you off camera it's still the guy's dead and the anger is still very much there for you because not only did you grow up idolizing the guy, but he was telling you to do these things that he was just stabbing you in the back all the way along. Well, how it all started was he got the, the DEA in Washington spoke with the FBI in Washington. That happens.

It does. It does. Hard to believe. Yeah. Believe it or not. And they said, and they were talking to the number two in charge at the time. Number two FBI in charge. In Boston or in Washington? Okay.

And they said to him, hey, listen, we're going to be targeting these Irish guys, the DEA said, for drugs. Racist fucks. Yeah, exactly. They didn't like the message. But anyway. All right, we got to mark down. Oh, sorry. No, you're good.

I told you, you say whatever you want. We got to fix it for our overlords at YouTube later. So anyway, after the meeting, the number two in charge, he says to his guy, the guys that they want to investigate for drugs and doing drugs and this and all that in Boston, the Irish guys, aren't they with us? Aren't those our informants? Aren't those our guys? Isn't Whitey Bulger our guy?

So the guy turns to him. He says, yes, they are. They're with us. They're our guys. He said, you get on the phone immediately. Call Boston. Call Boston and let them know that the DEA is coming for them for drugs.

So they gave him the heads up, Whitey, through John Connolly, the corrupt FBI agent, and John Morris, who was another corrupt FBI agent that dealt with Whitey. And he paid money to him and he gave free trips to him for him and his wife to fly to vacations and wine, beautiful $100,000 bottles of wines and, you know, you name it. Okay. for $100,000 bottles of wines and, you know, you name it. Okay? They called Boston, told them. He told Whitey. So Whitey, being the chess player that he is and a very intelligent and cunning individual, he knew he needed somebody.

He knew he needed somebody that he could trust, that it could insulate him from the DEA. Somebody that would never rat on him, would never give him up. But yet, he knew he had to give the DEA somebody something. Just give him something to end it so I was that guy I brought up in the ranks and

eventually I took over the drug organization after I was put through a test that test was he brought me in I was called he said Red come on down we want to see you what year is this? that test was, he brought me in. I was called. I said, Red, come on down.

We want to see you. What year is this? Ballpark. Late 80s. Late, almost 90. Somewhere around there. So you're still young. You're early 20s.

Yeah, early 20s, yeah. And so I said, yeah, sure. I get down. And he said,, yeah, sure. I get down. And I said, come on in here. I want to show you something downstairs. I said, sure. I get downstairs, and I walk down. They're behind me.

I said, what do you want to show me? In the basement. And I turn around, and Uzis were on me. They said, tell me everything about the guys that are good friends with you that are making a lot of money with you. How much money do they have? Tell me about them. I looked at him, I said, excuse me? I was shocked, you know, like. so he says to me, tell me.

Tell me now. I said, whatever they have is all through me. All through me. I gave them what they have today. It's all mine. I'm the guy feeding them. Whatever they have is true me. He cocked

back to Uzi. He said, I want more information. I said, do what you gotta do. Do what you gotta do. I'm a young guy. I have balls like no tomorrow right but I was ready to die for my friends

and not give them up in a basement if he whacked me nobody would have known nobody would have heard it after that he said you passed the test you're in charge now i was thinking back to in in the movie the departed which is loosely based on this stuff you know how nasty that scene is where he takes him into the back billiard room and with his jack takes takes

leo and with his broken hand takes off takes off the case he said well you know and then starts hitting it with the hitting it with the with the boot but i think the uzi's a whole different level because a boot's not going to kill you and uzi you're gone and you're like 22 23 and you have the presence of mind younger younger you have the presence of mind to be like this is this is what it's about this is the life i've chosen this is who i am i'm a man so i'm not gonna say anything do what you gotta do now how do you react when they obviously you're alive here today so they lowered the uzis and they didn't kill you was it like a congratulations like you graduated

kind of thing like you said he put you in charge but was he like happy or was it more like okay well he was definitely happy i could tell you that but i wasn't too fucking happy i wasn't too happy at all you can guarantee that as a matter of fact um i still have disdain about that ever since especially knowing that a rat did that to me. You know? Knowing that a rat, that doesn't sit well with me. Yeah. I can imagine.

But he taught me a valuable lesson. I was never going to be putting up a position ever again, ever again. No fucking way. Like being led down into a basement? Oh, yeah. That ain't happening oh no how are you getting out of that one yep boss tells you to go to a basement what do you do i don't give a fuck you get out well i'll handle i'll handle everything up on the street sounds about right sir yeah i'll handle everything up in the street. Fuck that. I ain't never doing that again. Yeah, he taught me a valuable lesson.

But kidding, all kidding aside, yeah, he gained so much respect, I guess you could say, and trust in me after that. So much so to make you a fall guy. Yeah, he knew I'd take the hit. And I was a young guy, so I could, you know, if it was 12 years or 20 years, I could do it because I was young. I'd be out at a relatively still, you know, I'd still had plenty of time, plenty of life left, if you will.

Right. So he calculated everything in. He was a very, very intelligent man when he came to anything like that. Again, everybody else was playing checkers and he was playing chess. Let's go back to the beginning here because this is like a really good preview of where things ended up. A lot of people at home right now are on the edge of their seats, I'm sure, because it's crazy that that early too, you get to a position like that. But you grew up, you've lived in Boston your whole life. You grew up in Southie, right? Yeah. South Boston, aka Southie, my hometown. Was your family involved with crime at all?

So I had a relative that grew up um with whitey and he used to go in and wake him up every once in a while at the house and say get up out of bed richie and uh they go and yeah yeah and um and they'd go out and uh and they'd um hijack trucks and stuff like that nice yeah okay yeah so did you get taught that at a young age? No, no. Toy trucks? No, I was doing that when I was living in the projects. Friends, my friends and I would be on the corner. We would wait for a truck to pull up that was making a delivery to a local store or market there, I should say. And it was Bell's Market, if you will. And yeah, it was Bell's Market.

Shout out. Yeah. And well, it's not there anymore. But yeah, Bell's Market was pretty good. They had everything in there that you wanted to get. But we wait for the truck anyway. And while the driver went in, we would run up to the back of the truck if it wasn't locked we we um we opened it easily and he would have uh uh cases of cigarettes cases and cases of cigarettes so we um we'd uh

we'd unload them really quick and then when he come out and he go to open up the back of the truck there were the the cases of cigarettes were gone. And, well, you know, they were gone. They were already in the projects, you know. Forget about it. And then, you know, as soon as he leaves, we watch and wait. As soon as he left, we went back into Bell's Mock and say, hey, you want to buy these cigarettes for a lot cheaper? How old are you when you're doing this?

We were like 15, 16. Yeah, yeah. What did your parents think about what you were doing? I didn't know. My father died when I was very young. I didn't know my father at all. He died of cirrhosis of the liver, unfortunately. From drinking? It is what it is.

From drinking? From drinking, yep. From alcohol, yep. How old were you again? I was, I remember the knock on the door. And it was my uncle knocked on the door to tell my mother that my father had passed away. And I remember it distinctly, believe it or not. And I was behind my mother because I was always like, you know, I was the only boy and I grew up with all sisters, older sisters.

I was the youngest. So I was kind of like the mistake, if you will, because there's almost a 10-year difference between me and the youngest sister, believe it or not. And my uncle knocks on the door and he says to my mom, he goes, Al died. He's dead. He passed away. I wanted to let you know. And she says, oh, God, okay. And I remember that distinctly as a nine but I drove by with an uncle, another uncle, and I see my mother going into the O'Brien's Funeral Home in Southie where a lot of people were waked. And I see my mother going in there and she was all dressed up in black. I mean, yeah. Yep. So he wasn't living in the house.

He never lived with us. He never lived with me, I should say, at that time. My mother had kicked him out prior to me being born. So you really didn't have a relationship with him? I did not have a relationship with him, no. So getting into that, that's why I think the world that I got gravitated to was because of that and the older guys in the neighborhood. I was the youngest guy involved. And the guys, you know, they were all older and I kind of looked up to that.

I kind of gravitated. I did gravitate. I didn't kind of. I did gravitate to that because they were all like big brothers or a father figure to me. Yeah, you didn't have any men in your life you know older sisters and everything yeah exactly did that i mean you gravitated towards people who could kind of fill that void but you know when you're 11 12 13 14 were maybe before you were running with some of those guys was there like a conscious void in your life where you had the stain for for your dad and the fact that he wasn was there like a conscious void in your life where you had

disdain for, for your dad and the fact that he wasn't there or hadn't been in your life before he died? That's a great question. I'm glad you asked me that. Um, I didn't have disdain for my dad because I didn't really understand it as such a young child, but i had disdain for my mom for your mom why because i felt as though she because she was so hard-nosed and and strict i felt as though she kicked him out of the house she got rid of him so you felt like maybe he didn't deserve that yes yep so she was was with was she really strict on you guys growing up with what you could do? That's hard to believe considering you were robbing cigarettes when you were 15. Yeah.

Well, she didn't know that. I mean, you know, she, you know, she didn't know that. But, um, yeah, I was always a, um, I was a good child at times, but I was always a problem child. Define problem child. I was definitely a problem child for my mom. Like getting into fights at school at a young age kind of problem? boxing the reason why i started boxing is because when i was five years of age um i was put down in the gutter and it was water running down the hill and i was at the bottom of the hill of in the street and salty and the two older kids beating the shit out of me at five and that's just the

type of lifestyle it was back then in the neighborhood. So not only was I getting soaked and wet from the water coming down from the hill down the gutter, but also they were beating the shit out of me and spitting on me. And I was five years of age at that time. Five years of age. And they finally let up. And one of the kids lived, it was in front of his house, lived down the street from us. And I ran up the hill.

And I ran into the house and I was enraged enraged at five years of age and I wanted to grab a weapon I tried to grab a weapon, a knife to go back out

at five years of age. A five-year-old grabbing a knife. A five-year-old. And my sister was there and she said, what the hell is going on? What happened? What happened? And I told her. My sister was their age because she's almost ten years older than I.

Oh, they were like 15 doing this to you? Yes. That's kind of pathetic. That's totally pathetic. So my sister said, come with me. Right out of the house, down to the street. The two kids were there in front of one of the kids' house that lived there. And she started beating the shit out of them. Your sister did? started beating the shit out of them.

Your sister did. Beating the shit out of them. They're built different in Boston. You got that right. So, one of the kids took off and ran. The other kid tried to run into his home.

My sister followed him into the home, beating the shit out of him and it was a coat rack on behind the door she didn't hang him on it she took the coat rack and started beating him with the coat rack i see why you were why you were an advisor on the departed there's a lot of scenes that are they feel like they're inspired and i and by the way i think they stole that from me i'm telling you i think they did them son of a guns i'm telling you right now my name is sing motherfucker sing exactly my god that's i mean i'm just trying to imagine and i can't because I'm very lucky. I feel like I had a great childhood. But five years old, first of all, getting bullied by 15-year-olds, I don't even know if I've ever heard of that.

That's like pathetic shit. But at five years old, you have to witness this. You have to be a victim of a scene like that and then even have the presence of mind to say, you know what? I'll grab a knife to defend myself and then your sister says no hold on let's go and goes and beats the shit out of them and you're watching this and you're going that's how you have to handle yourself in the world well that's when she grabbed me by the hand and she said you're going to the gym and you're going to learn how to box. At age five. At age five.

That is correct. So your sister is the one that took you to the gym? My sister started the whole boxing career for me, yes. They let kids box at age five? Oh, yeah. Every year, and it's coming up now because March is upon us, and every year, it's March 17th, they have what they call the Irish Baby Golden Gloves. And they match the kids up, the young kids and stuff like that. It's a tradition in Southie that's gone on for many, many years, and it's still going on. It's actually going on at a gym,

Peter Walsh's gym in Southie. Peter's a great guy. I remember when Peter came to the gym when he was a young kid from the projects. I remember it distinctly the first day he came into the gym with his mom. And he was just a young boy. And he's younger than me. And his mother says, yeah, you want to learn how to box. And I was there that day. I never forgot it. Of course, I haven't forgotten a lot of things in life. Yeah, you seem to have a good memory.

Yeah, unfortunately. And some things I might not have a good memory yet, though. I'll tell you that. You must have had good defense because you don't seem like you got your bell rung too, too much. It feels like you were doing a lot of the ringing. Oh, thank you. Thank so thank you yeah thank you but no it's funny you say that because my my uh my trainer tommy connors used to say to me um if the guy on the other side in the other corner he looks mean and and really ugly he said, don't worry about it. It's a good sign.

So, you know, I'm a young guy going, hmm. And how is that? He goes, well, somebody had to beat the shit out of him to do that. Yeah. He said, it's the good looking guys you got to watch out for. Yep. And I'm glad you brought that up. That's, he said that years ago.

No, it's a good point. I'm just, just you know it sounds very normal up there to be putting five-year-olds in there yeah that's young yeah yep i mean i used to train over a whipping athletic club where like a lot of really really great fighters were trained over there i think the youngest i ever saw coming in there was like eight or nine oh i so five's a whole different i have pitches i'll send you the pitches of me when I was a young age boxing. Not helping out with stereotypes. In the ring, that is.

In the ring. In the ring, boxing. Did they have you in headgear? No. Sometimes. Come on. I have a pitcher, a competition, but I had the big glove. We had the big gloves on.

And I'm smiling as I'm throwing an overhand right over the kid's jab. Smiling because I'm loving every bit of it as a kid. I got to make sure this isn't Photoshop midget wrestling. Yeah. I got to make sure. Absolutely not. Five or six, you're in there, no head gear. Yeah.

I even have a picture of a group of us from Southie with the famous trainer, Freddie Roach. Yeah. And you still train kids today, right? I am training kids at my buddy's gym. He has a gym called

Sonny's Gym in Middleton, Mass. He just had his kids, one of the Golden Gloves in Lowell, where I won a few times myself. And me and Mickey Ward trained and fought together, or fought together, I should say, not trained, but we fought together. We have known Mickey since I was 11 years of age. That's awesome. Yeah. And we fought each other

when I was 13 in the silver mittens finals and he beat me on a decision. So I always razz him about it. I don't forget that. Let me tell you, I haven't forgotten. Oh yeah. He's such a great guy. He really, we're such good friends. I really, I'm really blessed to have him. You just did a podcast with him too, right? Yeah. On your show? On my podcast, yes. That's going to be coming out soon. We're taping now the episodes for that.

So it'll be out shortly. Yeah. The Red Shade Podcast. That's got to be cool. It's great. You get to trip down memory lane and you get to record. Yeah, we did talk about us on the podcast of uh together when we were kids and fighting each other and then after that was in the juniors that we fought each other and then later on we

fought each other in the amateurs and um it's a funny story um that particular night my trainer says go tell mickey they match me and mickey up I said, oh, yeah. Okay, let's go. So my trainer says, go tell Mickey you're going to kick his ass tonight and that you haven't forgot that he beat you years back in the Silver Mittens in the finals. I said, I'm not doing that. I'm saving my energy. I don't want to waste any energy.

I want, you know, seriously. So he goes, yeah, yeah. My trainer kept on bothering me. I said, all right, let me shut him up and just go do it. So I go over and I see Mickey. He's sitting down getting his hands wrapped by his brother, Dickie Eklund. And I said, hey, Mick. He looks up.

He goes, yeah. I says, I haven't forgot that you beat me in the silver mittens by a decision in the finals. He says, well, tonight I'm kicking your ass. You're not beating me tonight. Tonight you're not winning. And I walk away. The guys around Mickey that were sitting there were like, who the hell is that guy? Mickey goes, oh, he's from Southie.

He's crazy. I heard an earshot, and I bursted out laughing. So now I'm trying to relax, and I go, holy shit, I just told Mickey what? I'm going to kick his ass tonight. Got to back that shit up. Got to back that shit up. I'm the man of my word. So I lay down.

I put a towel over my eyes, keep the light out from the dressing room, and I relax. So I get ready. I wrap up after that, get my gloves on, get in the ring with Mickey. I take it straight to Mickey. No holding back or feeling out or anything. Let's get it on. I told you I was going to bring the heat tonight. I told you I was going to or anything. Let's get it on. I told you I was here and I bring the heat tonight.

I told you I was going to win tonight. Let's get it on. Little body head, body action. Everything. Right hand. Don't know. Jab. There was no jab involved.

Oh, there was no jab. It was all power shots. It was like pit bull to pit bull. And we were going at it right here in left hooks, just going at it. Right hand, left hooks. Just going at it. And all of a sudden, the bell rings, but we don't hear the bell. Oh, you're still going? We don't hear the bell. We're still going. The referee jumps in, tears us apart, and says, you're both disqualified.

He disqualified the both of us in the first round because we didn't hear the bell and we kept on fighting. Oh, that's the fun police. Come on. Exactly. He can't do that. Exactly. But anyway, that's my claim to fame. I've never been disqualified in a match before, and neither had Mickey.

So my disqualification was against Mickey Ward, the former world champion champion when we were in the amateurs but yeah yeah but um mickey's such a great guy and then they made the movie after mickey the fighter with mark walberg made a hundred million dollars i mean you know i'm so happy for him you know no better person it couldn't happen to to have that happen to i mean really he's such a really good guy another fucking great movie too. Yeah. Boston makes a lot of great movies. Yes.

Oh, yeah. A lot of my favorites take place in Boston. We in Boston do. Yes, for sure. But that's so cool that you got that good. Obviously, you ended up using these skills in your later career, but throughout your childhood, you were a legit fighter, and it's something you can now do today. Well, I had nine professional fights you wait you went fully pro yeah yeah i

started in california at 18 holy shit yes yes while you're like dealing blow um at that time i stopped you know wailing and dealing and i went out to california to pursue my boxing career my first love if you will okay so that was a little bit of time off how long did that last a couple years and then i you know i wasn't making the money that yeah i i had that money you know and it was you know it's a tough life you mean, you know, if you don't have the money. And, but that said, yeah, I started in California. One of my friends who's been on the podcast, episode 70 back in the day in 2021, he was one of my boxing trainers, this guy, Lou Issa.

You ever hear of him? That sounds familiar, right? Yeah, it does sound familiar. It might sound familiar for a couple of reasons, but his story, if I could truncate it was he went he grew after his senior year of high school he was like 5'9 he was a cornerback and he's a golden gloves boxer but then he grew to like six foot six 300 between between senior year and freshman of college so the fucking local college coach what a growth spurt.

It was insane. Yeah. So local coach sees him because he didn't get signed by anyone, and he's like, who the fuck are you? Gets him in there. So he plays like maybe Division II or D1 AA ball and didn't play at a big enough school to get looked at. So he does try out with Don Shula and the Dolphins because he was so big,

blows out his knee when he's down in Miami. So he had been a boxer, decides to go to Fifth Street Gym with Angelo Dundee and it's where Muhammad Ali was training because that was his hero. And instead of just going there to see Ali, he's like, well, I'll hit the bag. Starts hitting the bag and Dundee walks over and he's like, who the fuck are you? He's like, I'm Luis. Box a little bit. He's like, who the fuck are you? It's like, I'm Luis. I box a little bit.

He's like, all right, you can stay. Long story short, he becomes a heavyweight contender. He becomes Muhammad Ali's sparring partner and all the big guys would come spar with him because his skill was that he could mimic fight styles. So like if Frazier was going to go fight Foreman, he could play Foreman and like do a decent job. Sure, yeah. So he starts off his career 18 and oh you know he's partying every night but he's just like natural talent to this to this day like my one buddy who went pro that was his trainer like when he would warm up you know before the

fights lou would be out there with the mitts and the bodies would be straight to lose body like he's like all right hit me right here kid like he's still a brick shithouse right here so he goes 18 and 0 and then he starts fucking off because they got him i think it was the mendoza brothers they got him a job while he was like on the come up as a bouncer at the local club and some dude rolled up in a car one of the early nights and you know had like the big chain and whatever walked out and lou's like who the fuck are you and he goes I'm the guy that runs this place. He's like, no, you're not. You're not my boss.

And the kid pulls out a matchbox and says, open that up. And there was a gram of cocaine in there. And he goes, that's why I'm the boss. And Lou goes, you selling that in here? And he's like, yeah. And he goes, not anymore, you're not. I'm selling now. So he gets into that, starts making a lot lot of money ends up becoming one of the one of

the initial cocaine cowboys in florida he was the one getting the bags off the fucking biscayne bay and his career fizzles out because he was making too much money doing coke and then he was another guy he didn't rat you know he did time in prison and everything for all that but crazy story because it's similar in the sense that the he was money boxing, but it was not anywhere near. The two parallels. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely.

So it's, I don't know. It just kind of reminds me of that. And you were also doing, weren't you doing deals down in Florida too? Oh, yeah. I was. That's where all my cocaine came from. Of course it did. Yeah.

My first kilo came from Key Lago, Key West, I should say. What year do you think? Oh, boy. In the 80s. Yeah. Might have overlapped at the end of his run there. We got to check that afterwards. Yeah, in the 80s.

That's funny. All right. But you became this boxer, obviously, enough to go pro when you're 18. The one thing I've been wondering while you're talking about this is, though, like to get in there at age five, you had these – did you have the same trainer? Like as you were moving along or did you work with all different guys? No. In the beginning, it was different trainers that donated their time to the gym with the kids and stuff like that. Some of them were fighters and some of them were fighters and uh some of them were even professional

fighters um but then there was one particular as they started getting you getting older there was one particular guy um that was the main trainer and he was tommy connors um and he taught me everything i know about boxing did you gravitate towards him as like a father figure? Oh, 100%. That's interesting. Yeah, he used to call me his son. He treated me like a son. Did he ever, did he know some of the stuff you were doing as you got into your teenage years when you weren't in the ring? You know, like robbing cars and stuff like that or trucks? He helped facilitate. Come on. Yeah. I didn't expect to hear that. He helped facilitate. Come on.

Yeah. I didn't expect to hear that. He helped facilitate. He helped facilitate me selling drugs. Really? Yes. You usually hear the opposite type story. He was the financer. So he was really,

he was running a boxing gym, but he was trying to create a workforce. And he got indicted with me. No way. Yes. Now, was he involved with the Winter Hill Gang at all? No.

And I wasn't, and a lot of people say I went to Hill, but the Winter Hill Gang was dismantled years ago. And Friday's a fraction of the Winter Hill Gang that it was associated with at that time. So yeah, I was never a Winter Hill Gang. The Winter Hill Gang had been fractioned off, if you will. And that happened years back. That's so interesting though, that your boxing trainer was the one who facilitated it. So when you started to like flame out with your career, meaning like you were deciding to go the other way, was he literally like, yeah, you should do this with me? He knew he, well, he wanted to make money himself, obviously. And he had a guy that was able to was able to do that with in me. Wow. Yes. That's a new one. Yeah. My sister's not too happy with him.

She doesn't like him because she knows that he facilitated that. And, um, and, uh, I mean, he didn't do that much time at all. He, because he was in a low level, uh, part of the case, if you will. Um, he was a facilitator, but he was on a low level uh part of the case if you will um he was a facilitator but he was on a lower level he facilitated originally when i was younger but but in the particular case he was in a in a in a um you know he he didn't he wasn't a hands-on guy like i was right you had surpassed him i've surpassed a lot of people yes yeah yep now are you is your mom still alive today? No, unfortunately, she died a while back.

I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah, well, we're all going to be there, brother, unfortunately. You know, I accept my wife. I got this special remedy for my wife where she's going to stay beautiful and live forever. That's exactly what you want to hear. That's a good husband right there. I approve. that's exactly what you want to hear it's a good husband right there i approve but did you ever i mean i mean we had talked about some of that feeling the disdain for your mom over your dad

did you ever develop a close relationship with her or talk to her about that before she died what did that relationship turn into yeah i talked to my mom about it and she said hey i tried everything in the world to uh to get him to stop drinking of course being irish catholic um took him to the priest like the priest is gonna you know cure him from being an alcoholic i mean who knows maybe he could have i don't know you know your friend father pat might have uh father pat he's a solid guy. Oh, I love Father Pat. Put a pin in that for one sec. We'll come back. But let's stay on this with your dad.

So, yeah, I talked to my mom about it. And I got a better explanation and understanding of what happened and that he had a sickness. And there was nothing that she could ever do about it, even though she tried her hardest to help. But there was no helping. Knowing what you know now about that, because you were also a kid when this is happening, you can't possibly fully understand what addiction is and what that can do to a family. That is correct. Is there a level of forgiveness for her over time oh yeah i i forgive her as i get older i as i was able to uh comprehend and understand what had happened and and uh the gravity of all of that um yeah of course i mean now i'm you know

now i get it now Now I'm more developed. I was still a child, but I was more developed. So, yeah. Yep. And in a lot of ways, like you said, the closest sister was like 10 years, something like that? Just about. And then the other ones were just a little older than her? A few years older than her, yes. How many sisters were there?

Well, there was uh four sisters all together um but the oldest sister she died prior to me of course um when she was two years old and crib death a crib death yeah what happened she just uh that that syndrome crib syndrome or whatever oh i i know what that yeah, I've heard about that before. And, you know, back in them days, that was more easily to happen than it is today. So, you know, they're more versed in that today than they were way back then, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

And, you know, in my book, Rat Bastards, I talk about her a little bit from what I've known from my sisters, my mom, I should say. And she had dark hair, not red hair, because my father had dark hair. And I get the red hair from my mom. And she had blue eyes. So it was a pretty nice combination. Do you think that – was that something that – I mean obviously that viscerally affects any parents, but is that something that maybe contributed to your dad falling victim to alcoholism? I don't think so. I think it was just – unfortunately, and I i hate to say this i hate to use this term um but you know we use it in southey and growing up um in the in a dominant um uh in the biggest irish enclave in boston um you know we used it you probably heard this before but the irish curse

yeah i mean some people say other things for an irish curse but unfortunately i don't have that problem but that's besides the point unfortunately i should say i don't have that problem sorry that was good i didn't see that one coming yeah but that's that's i i can't imagine i'm not a parent and don't and don't ask my wife i i you know thank you i stayed looking over here i know i know i know i know for a good reason and laura stayed on the phone thank you for the respect you're welcome but so that the oldest one is the one who died and then there were three others yes and do you have a relationship with all of them today i do not any of them today? I do not. Any of them? Unfortunately, no, I do not. One of them for a good reason. It was the middle sister. And the reason why is because when I was a kid,

she was on the phone with my other sister, the youngest one. And it was my mother's birthday. And I was 15, 16 years of age. And I was running around the projects, wild, of course. No father at home. No stability. My mother worked all the time, and though she tried to be father and mother at the same time. Can you do that? Yeah, it's really tough for my mom with me because I was, like I said, a mistake, if you will, because it was such a difference.

Did she expect to have a baby that type of year difference and all that? No, of course not. Good old dad came home one night and he got cozy with mom. So that shit happens, right? Here you are. And here i am so but that said um you know um i don't i didn't have any i don't have anything to do with her is because and i talk about it my book rap bastards about how um she was on the phone and she was talking to my uh

sister and i hadn't uh she asked me if I'd gotten a birthday present for my mom. I said, I haven't yet, but I'm going to go get one. It was that simple. And she started yelling at me when she was on the phone and all that and screaming at me for no reason at all because I hadn't had that present at that moment. We still have time. There's a few hours left in the day before we have dinner

or a birthday cake for my mom. And so we ended up in a big argument. And I was a young kid, you know, and needless to say, it wasn't right of me. But, you know, we're all hotheaded in my household. I think it's because we got that from my mom. My mom was a very hotheaded individual. My father, from what I was told from my sisters and my mom, that he was a very-keeled guy, a very level-headed guy. So, yeah, I inherited that temper from my mom.

And we all did. And my oldest sister was yelling at me and screaming at me. And at this time, she had two children of her own. So I was an uncle at such an early age you know and they were young they were very young at the time and um so we started in an argument and she said i i i lost it i says i'm going to tell you what um don't come tonight to the house because I live with my mom. I said, because it ain't going to be good.

Don't come. To your own mom's birthday dinner? Yeah. As a young kid, hot-headed, was volatile household at times, very volatile. And I said to her, she said something to me and she said, your mother never wanted you anyway.

So with that said, instead of me wanting to beat her up with my hands, as I did when I was five years old, I went to the kitchen and I grabbed a knife and I threatened her with a knife. I said, you see this knife? If you come, this is what's going to happen to you. I had my left hand on her shoulder when I did it and I had my knife, the knife here. And I was only a kid being hotheaded. I wasn't going to use it.

I was threatening her with it. You weren't going to use it? No. But if I was going to use it, if I was going to use it, I would have used it, right? I mean, let's call a spade a spade. Am I going to disagree? Well, no. Trust me, I'm not going to use a knife on you if you do.

I got one under the table. Thank you. But that's besides the point. So I threatened her with it. And her being so much older than I, she knew the legalities there. And she reached for the knife with her hand like this where she could had sliced herself on the hand oh she did it on purpose she tried to slice herself she grabbed it went like this for the knife to slice her hand or palm and i pulled the knife back and i went i said you i says as And I went, I said, you, I says, as bad as I am right now.

I said, you're sicker than me. I said, you're sicker than me. I said, you actually wanted to slice yourself. So now you could say that I actually sliced you. Oh, my God. It was very calculating on her behalf. To her younger brother was 15 years of age. I'd love to see this psychiatrist office.

So I leave the house. I throw the knife over the thing. I leave the house. My mom gets a call from her. She called the police. And she said that I get this. Now it gets even worse. Talk about a rat bastard.

My own blood, right? She calls the police and says that I threatened her and I put the knife to my baby niece. Oh, no. To her throat. That's off limits. Oh, yeah, she did. That's what she did. She fabricated and made the story up.

No wonder I don't like rats, right? I mean, come on. Think about it. In your blood. Yeah. So I got arrested that night for assault and battery with a weapon. I was brought to a jail cell in Boston. And I never forget this. When I was on my way to the jail cell, I was with another guy that they picked up that was in handcuffs in the

back seat of the police car. And it was a black guy. I'll never forget it. And they said, hey, hey, there was a shooting that happened a few nights prior to that in the projects. And the cop says, hey, you know anything about this shooting? And he asked me. And the black guy next to me nudges me gives me a nudge with his elbow in other words don't tell him anything i of course i didn't know anything and if i did i wasn't going to tell him anything anyway i knew better than that at that age and um i said I have no idea what you're fucking talking about. I said to the guy.

So I went to jail. I got bailed out. Who bailed you out? I had a friend of mine that came and bailed me out. My friends, my older friends came and bailed me out. Good friend. Yeah, yeah. And I went back to my mom's home.

My mom knew the police were coming so i kind of had a little disdain against my mom that she kind of like didn't forewarn me and threw me under the bus but she did that she said because we had the conversation and she did that because she knew i was into a lot of different things and trouble out in the street. And she figured maybe that would straighten me out. So I get the logic in that. And of course it didn't. But that said, so my sister brought me all the way to court, pressed charges, brought me all the way to court, had to go to trial. You went to trial? Had to go to trial.

You're 16, right? Yes. Yep. Had to go to trial. So my younger sister got a hold of my niece at the time, and she said, I want to ask, well, her mother went into the bathroom. She said, I and she said i want to ask while her mother went into the bathroom he said i i i got a question i want to ask you can you please tell auntie the truth she said yes she said my nickname is jay so she said did uncle jay put the knife to your throat. Did he really do that? And she said, no, mommy's making me say that.

Did they get to like bring that into court as evidence? My sister came, my younger sister came into court and she stood up in the courtroom in a stand and she told the judge and the prosecution and my attorney who sucked uh because i couldn't afford one um and um and uh she told them and and she said i asked her outside and she said mommy's making me lie my sister was so, my sister was taking me to court, was so mad. Oh, she went off a rocker.

They didn't talk for years, by the way. But they talk again after that? After that, they did. They came back together again and talked. But yeah, I've never forgiven her for that. And have you talked to her since then? I've seen her like, you know, on my, my mom's funeral. I told my mom when my, before my mom passed away, my mom asked me a question.

She said, I know you don't like her, but she's still my daughter. And she says, I know you, please don't ever hurt her so my mom's was you know was it the smartest person in the world but she was savvy in her ways and I said you have my word. That's really heavy. Yeah. I mean, I'm trying to like put your childhood together. That's a lot to deal with.

So that said, I honored my mom and I still honor her. When she passed away, I gave the eulogy in the mass. And I talked about how, you know, I was the mistake and all that and everything in the eulogy. And I put a little humor to it. And then I said, my mom said to me, you weren't, you were all a gift to me. Now, I didn't have to say that. I didn't have to say that. I didn't have to say, you were all a gift to me. But I did.

I did it for my mom. That's a really full circle moment. Well, it's the honorable thing to do. I gave my word. I'm an honorable person. I have integrity. Now, when it comes to integrity integrity breaking the law and doing bad things in the street

no that's we all know that's not good but the integrity of accepting full responsibility for the wrongs that you've done and paying your debt to society for as many years as I have,

and it could have been even longer, that's the integrity, my friend, without putting it on someone else's shoulders, that burden, and having it out. Hey, I got an ace up my sleeve. What's that? I can rat on you guys, and I can get out early. I only have to do a little bit of time

that's not integrity that's selfishness so do you look at what you did to get into prison like now looking back on it obviously there's there's things that drew you to the life we're going to get more into that soon but do you look at it as immoral and wrong and therefore that was the balance? The balance was because you did something immoral and wrong and because you were caught, you were given this time. Therefore, that's what you do. Pay your debt to society. It's that simple. There's no gray area.

I don't hear a lot of people talk like that in your position. You have a very interesting kind of 30,000-foot view of the world. Well, I wish there were more men out there, more responsible people that took responsibility for their actions. As Whitey said, you know, it takes a strong person to reach inside themselves and say I'm here because of me. It's crazy that the guy who didn't live that still said something so heavy and true that you have lived and take his advice today despite who he was saying that. I guess if there's anything as much disdain that I have now against Whitey Bulger, I guess those little things like that those things I actually really appreciated

that's basically I guess you can call it the silver lining in the dark cloud yeah as a kid growing up in South running with some of the crews in the street learning from some of the older kids I guess ending up learning from your boxing trainer, ended up, you know, taking down trucks and stuff like

that. Do you remember like when that Omerta code, if you will, locked in on you that like, hey, I am now like you're conscious. You're like, I'm making some choices that are below the line of where the law is. Other people are making them with me and i'm going to be responsible for my actions to the point that if i get caught i'm never saying shit to anyone because we don't do that like do you remember where that became a a code in your head that you were going to live the rest of your life by yes that was a code that you broke you that you were brought up in southey to do as white Whitey Bulger's brother, Billy Bulger, who was a Senate for years, he was the Senate president of Massachusetts for years.

He was more powerful than the governor. He wrote a book, and in his book, he talks about how they were playing ball in the projects because they came from the projects too. I came from one project that was across the street from the other project. I came from O'Colony projects. They came from the Old Harbor projects. So that said, they were playing ball. They broke a window and the kids ran off.

He got caught and they wanted to know who the other kids were. And he said in his book, you didn't do that. It's just a known thing. It's just a known thing. It's something that you grew up in salty with. And you know what? It's a good thing. No matter how many people want to look at it or whatever and say,

well, that ain't a good thing. You should have done the honorable thing and told on those kids so they could get in trouble too. No, it ain't. It isn't. They got away, leave it at that. You got caught, you take your lumps and bumps, that's it. I mean, I remember

kids going into the store and stealing gum or candy out of this local store. And maybe you got caught when they all ran out, but you got caught in you when they all ran out but you got caught and in the store did you tell on all those kids no absolutely not so it's the same premise as you learned in the neighborhood as a kid as you get in to the bigger stuff as a kid if you will an older kid and getting into that life it's's the same premise. You never rat.

The stakes just get higher. The stakes just get higher. Yeah, for sure. Yep. When was the first time you, so you had said you went pro as a boxer in California when you were 18. First of all, what was that like, like living out in California? You'd never lived outside Boston before that, right? Yeah, I mean, I absolutely loved it because, you know, Boston's a cold town, right? In the winter and everything. I mean, hello, and snow and everything else.

Hello. Yeah, I got to retire soon. Me and my wife, I got to retire. I got to be down in Florida for a turn of winters. I'll tell you. I'm shocked you're not there yet. Snowbirds. Next year we'll be there. But anyway. Make sure this guy wears his SPF, you know?

Yeah. Thank you. Both of us. So that said, so I go out to California. I loved it. I loved it. Oh, man. Palm trees and beach and water and sunshine. Who doesn't love that, right? So one day, you know, I happen to be training and I'm running along the beach and I'm running in the sand and, you know, working out. And I happen to look out. Now, I'm a city slicker, right? I mean, coming from the city, the projects, you know, concrete, you know, world, everything, right? So I look over in the water and I see these fins. I'm only 18 years old, right? I look over and I see these fins in the water and the waves. I go, oh, shit. Right? I

start, you know, with people in the water, I start, get out of the water. I said, get out of the water. I said, there's sharks. There's sharks. I said, get out of the water. So my trainer at the time out there was Tony Cardinale's lawyer, my box and my attorney. It was his brother, actually. Come on. Yeah, yeah. He says to me, what are you doing?

I said, there's sharks. There's sharks. He goes, they're not sharks. Yeah, yeah. He says to me, what are you doing? I said, they're sharks. They're sharks. He goes, they're not sharks. They're dolphins. I went, oh. I said, well, what do I know? I'm from the city. I said, I don't know shit like that.

Dolphins might try to fuck you to death. Oh, yeah. I heard they're rapists. Oh, yeah. Oh, I heard about this. I heard all about it. And I went online and looked up about it. And I saw some crazy shit.

So I got married a little over two and a half years ago in Hawaii. And I knew that the dolphins were in Hawaii. So I said, I better bring a knife and have a diver's knife on the side of my ankle i said i said in case these dolphins come i said i can you know i don't know what they would do but i've seen videos before where like you know a dolphin trainer woman is like sitting on on top of the on top of the dock and a dolphin just comes up like full blown like oh yeah ready to get down. Oh, yeah. I saw videos myself. Forget about it.

Oh, man. It's bad. It's not good stuff. I know one day I wouldn't want any of them coming up to me doing that. Oh, yeah. And then they even ejaculate all over you. That was more than I was aware of. Well, I'm just letting you know I've seen the videos.

Yeah, yeah. And they are not discriminating either. They're very bisexual. was aware of well i'm just letting you know i've seen the videos yeah yeah and they don't they and they are not discriminating either they're very bisexual oh they're bisexual oh they are yeah so don't turn around they men or women doesn't matter oh my god oh yeah they'll have fun with your leg whatever you get in the water there so i remember the first time i googled dolphin dick i wish i never did that oh yeah that's it's like it's like a horse cock of the water oh yeah bad stuff yeah i wouldn't want that like i said i don't want anything that like that near me that dolphin didn't violate you right oh no no no no you

can tell me no it's just you and me no it would explain no no of course i got into cocaine because the dolphin fucked me that'd be a hell of a story. But so you get – you're out there in California. You're having a good time. Did you start to – before you get the, I guess, temptation to go back into coke, were there like distractions now for the first time too? Because like you said, it's a nice place. It's not the projects where you were from. No, I was totally involved in the boxing.

Yeah, I was totally involved in the boxing yeah i was totally totally focused on boxing and um yeah we uh we we were training in different gyms and stuff like that and um i was doing very well training inspiring with a lot of good professional fighters at the time prior to me being professional and uh and i was doing very well with them. But that said, I came back to Boston after that, and Tony Cardinale set me up with, he was very good friends with the Duvers, Lou Duver from back in the day that had all the fighters,

Amanda Holyfield, Vinnie Pazienza, all those, Bumpus, Pinal Whitaker, he had all those guys, Lou Duver. And so he called Lou Duver and he says, I got an Irish kid here. I guarantee you, you'll love this guy. And Lou Duver says, good. We're at Boston. Good. Send him down with Vinny Pazienza to Rhode Island and get him some sparring with Vinny Pazienza. So sure enough, I went down to Pazienza gym and I started training with Pazienza are inspiring him. And, uh, and I did very well against Vinny. Um, uh, you know,

no matter if I got, did well against Vinny in the gym or not, uh, you just realize he was a world, world champion. I wasn't the world champ, but whether I got the best home here or there in training, so be it. But he was the world champ.

I wasn't, it was a five-time world champion at that um but it sounds like you're still really into boxing i was i was focused on it yeah i was so i was at that time i was back into selling drugs oh so you did do that too yep i came back selling drugs and i supported myself as a fighter doing that. So I didn't have to worry about a nine to five job where I was too tired to go to the gym and train. I had plenty of rest, plenty of time to do whatever I wanted. And I had the money to support that and to support myself in doing that. Selling all cocaine? Oh, yep. Cocaine, sometimes marijuana. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Now,

was that just you like on your own as kind of a solo dealer or were you set up through somebody? I was getting the drugs from Whitey's guys. Okay. Yeah. His crew. I was getting drugs from his crew because I knew all of them. How'd you get hooked up with them initially? When was that? A lot of them were, uh, guys from, uh, from the gym that were associated with, yeah, there were a lot, some of them were fighters, boxers, I should say. And, uh, they, they were with Whitey. And then, um, of course, uh, all those guys knew, knew each other and that's how I ended up getting to be, to know them and to become friends with them. So they're giving you the stuff.

It's not like you're going down to Miami yet at this point. Yeah, no, I was grabbing ounces of cocaine at the time. And I was selling grams at night in the clubs and the bars and everything in Southie. Pretty good business. Yeah, I mean, you know, it was great for me because I could support myself in the boxing part of it. And so I came back and I supported myself. I went down. I was training with Vinny Pazienza.

And we went down to New Jersey, Passaic. Oh, right over here. Yeah. And Lou Duve had his gym over there with all of the champions. He did? Yeah. What was that gym called? I don't know.

It's been so long. Okay. And so it was me, Vinny Pazienza, and Rocky Lockridge. Rocky Lockridge was a champ at the time, and we did round Robbins and Vinny. It was time for Vinny to spa with Rocky Lockridge. And I knew one thing about Rocky Lockridge. He would lull you. He would tap you to the body.

And then he'd, he told the overhand, right? Just lull you. So you, you know, I get a little lull to get a little lack of days ago. So we could sneak that right hand over the top on you.

That was his famous punch. I knew that about him. So I made sure that that didn't happen to me. I can guarantee that. Well, he did it to Vinny and he cut Vinny. Oh, shit. He split him over his eye. So now,

mind you, I didn't sign with Lou Duva yet. Lou Duva was looking to sign me. And I didn't have a contract with him. I'm still a young kid. Now I'm selling drugs, so I'm doing all right. I got money in my pocket. And so I'm down there in New Jersey, sparring.

Vinny gets cut. We go back to the whole motel that we were staying at. Lou Duva was paying the cost for that. And so I happened to, I stayed back with Vinny at the hotel and the pool. Lou Duva comes over. He says, where the hell you been? You're supposed to be in the fucking gym training. I went, excuse me? He says, where the hell you been? You're supposed to be in the fucking gym training.

I went, excuse me? One day I didn't like, is anybody coming at me aggressively? That's one day I don't like. Or even like, you know, being aggressive and swearing at me, which he did at that time. So I said, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He left. I packed my shit and went back to Boston. And that's the break off point.

That was the break off point. I had a few pro fights in Boston after that. I did fight in Atlantic City with Vinny Paz on the same card. I won that fight. But I got away from Lou. Is the money starting to get, like, grow and get better

at this point? I started earning more money then. I started concentrating more on the drugs after that. And I was getting it from Whitey's guys. And then all of a sudden I said, hey, I want to get my own connect. I want to do my own thing, my own connect.

I had a chance to do that. There was a woman that was in Florida in the Keys and she had a guide to get kilos of cocaine. At that time, it cost me $20,000 to get on there and do that. So I went down, she introduced me to the guy for the kilo. And he said, I want the money. I said, yeah, you'll get the money when you give me the product. I said, well, you look like I was born yesterday, pal. He goes, well, if you don't give me the money, then I know you're not a cop.

I said, well, I'm not a cop, that's for sure. Whether I might look like one, a clean-cut young kid, he says, I'm not. But he goes, well, that's the only way you're going to get the kilo, the drug. I said, I turned to the girl and I said, are you covering this? If he don't come back, are you giving me my $20,000 back? Are you going to cover this? She said, yes. I said, then here's the money.

So I'm just standing there waiting and waiting and waiting a few hours. All of a sudden, she lived in a trailer, if you will, on the water where there was coral reefs and stuff down there. I remember the barracudas going by real quick, you know, standing on the edge, you know.

I was like, whoa, I know I won't get in that water, you know. So all of a sudden I see a helicopter go by. I don't think anything of it, you know. Just a helicopter going by, right? So I'm waiting for this guy to come back. He doesn't come back. I said, oh, man. I'm like out of my tits right now, right?

This guy just robbed me for $20,000. He didn't really rob me because she's going to pay it. He's giving me my money. You're giving me my money. And I told her that. He ain't coming back. You're giving me my money. I can guarantee you that.

You owe me 20 grand. So I go to sleep. I lie my head down. I go to sleep midnight. It's midnight. I get woken up. The guy's back with the kilo. I wanted to hug this guy. I mean, really, I wanted to hug him. Seriously. I wanted to hug this guy.

I mean, really, I wanted to hug him. Seriously. I was like, holy shit. Thanks for coming back. Like, you know, I thought I lost my 20 grand, right? So I open it up. I look at it. It was crystal beautiful, like the real deal. I was like, oh, nice.

The next day, I get the kilo. I break it up. It was two biscuits. I put one in the front of me and one in my back. And I took one of those sweat belts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I strapped it to me and tied it into me. And I wore a baggy shirt, like a Hawaiian shirt, if you will.

And I proceeded to go to Miami airport. And at that time, you didn't have to worry about, you know, the scanners and scanning. If you get drugs, you know, looking at your crotch or something like that or whatever, you didn't worry about all that stuff. Then we didn't have it because it was before 9-11. And I also heard their security wasn't too good even by those day's standards. Yeah, most likely, yes. I would say so because eventually one of my guys that came with me down there, came to work with me after that, he put one through a, believe it or not, into the x-ray machine, and they never spotted it.

Oh, my God. Of course, I said, you're nuts if you do that. I told him, you're fucking crazy. He said, don't do it. Oh, no, we can do it. We can do it. I'll never know. He wrapped it in towels and stuff, and he put the bag in.

I walked away from him. I'll be honest bag in. I walked away from him. I'll be honest with you. I walked away. He says, you want to do something stupid like that? Go ahead. I'm walking away on that. It went through unnoticed. Could you believe that?

I couldn't believe it at the time. An x-ray machine, that's almost hard to believe, even back then. It went through. Yeah. The person looking at the x-ray machine must have been looking too good at all. Let me tell you that. Maybe they were only trained. They didn't train for drugs or anything.

I guess not. They were trained maybe for just weapons and stuff, like guns. If you see a gun, pull this bag over or something. But no, it went through. I said to him, you'll never do that again.

Ever. Ever. I don't give a shit. You ain't ever doing that again. And never, never did he ever do that. Or I do that again. If you had told me that, I wouldn't have done it again either. Just let you know.

Yeah. I thought it was. You have a real look about you. Yeah. It was. Let me tell you something. It was suicide. Yeah.

Suicide. Suicide. Lou told me that one of the things he used to do was he would just go to the airport with checked bags that they weren't putting through x-ray machines. And you just check the bag, drop it off. They'd be filled to the brims with Coke. And it would arrive on a flight to a dying guy to pick it up. And that's what he did. Yeah.

That's how easy it was. Yeah. The security was really easy at that time. God, I love Miami. Yeah. Not anymore, though. You can't do that anymore, my man. Oh, yeah. was yeah it was the security was really easy at that time god i love miami yeah not anymore though you can't do that anymore my man oh yeah those were the good old oh yeah those were the great old days let me tell you that um so yeah i i was uh i graduated from strapping it to myself and uh flying it back to boston and southie and Southie and selling that. And I started making a lot more money, a lot more money.

And I had a very, very, very good business, ounce business. Not even – I got away from – I graduated and got away from Grams and went to the ounces. And one day I had a brand-new BMW. I had a brand-new Rolex on. Oh, so you were wearing bling. I was wearing a little new BMW. I had a brand new Rolex on. Oh, so you were wearing bling. I was wearing a little bling. Yeah, yeah. And all of a sudden, I only was getting a little bit from Whitey's guys.

So they came by. They drove by one day in the neighborhood. They saw me getting into my brand new Bima and the Rolex on. And the boss of the crew, he looks. And his last name is the same as mine, Shea, no relation. His name was Bill Shea, Billy Shea. And he stops. He goes, hey, Red.

And now I know these guys so well because they came down and seen me fight in Atlantic City. And he said to me, if you win, because he had a bracelet, a gold bracelet that he had made. And the gold bracelet was strands of gold rope. And then in the middle was his name, but he had diamonds in his. So it said, Billy, he says, I'll get you. If you win this fight, I'll get you one of these bracelets. He said, without the diamonds because it was too expensive for him. So, of course, I'm going to win this fight. If I have to bite this guy's ear off like Mike Tyson did to Harley Phil, I will. So anyhow, I win the fight, and he got me the gift.

So that's how well I knew these guys. But they didn't like you driving the Beamer. They saw, no, they didn't. They didn't care? They didn't dislike me driving the Beamer, but they wanted to know, well, hey, Red, how you doing? Oh, I'm doing good. How are you?

Now, it was a no-no what I was doing because I was on that turf right yeah i should be buying from them correct yes yeah you're buying from miami i get my own connect i'm making more money you guys i fuck the middleman i don't get fucking right you know smart businessman right yeah whitey who exactly so he, Red, you got a Beamer, brand new Beamer. You got the, oh, man, you're doing pretty well now, huh? I said, yeah. It's funny, Red, you don't get that much from us no more.

I said, yeah, yeah. No, I don't. No, I don't. I was straight up about it. He said, well, why is that? Because I have my own connect. What? You get your own connection that you get?

Really? Well, tell me about this connection. What do you want to know? How much can you get? What do you get? I said How much can you get? What do you get? I said, I get kilos. Kilos? Really?

At what cost? I said, well, I said, depending on the time of that month, you know, it fluctuates. I said, but I can get them for $18,000 a whack at that time, or maybe a little cheaper. He said, really? The eyes open up. Now, I didn't know this, but their connection that they had wasn't very good. So they were struggling. So the boss, Billy Shea, being an intelligent guy, he was educated in prison. He got a college degree in prison. He says, I'll tell you what, Red. Why don't you join forces with us?

And that was them bringing me into the crew now. You're like, what, 20, 21? I was like, yeah, I was 19 wow 19 20 19 yeah right in that area and um i said uh come with you yeah you could supply us you could be the main supply mmm mmm is right oh boy here's a great money opportunity for me yes sir we now mind you what I was doing

wasn't right on their turf they could have said you gotta there's a problem for you yeah Whitey could have said there is a fucking problem for him whether White. Whitey could have said, there is a fucking problem for him. Whether Whitey liked me or not, I was still stomping on and not giving any money. Did you know Whitey personally at this point?

Yes. All right, let's take a back step for one second. When did you first meet him? I met him when I was 16 years of age. Where? In Southie, on the street street somebody introduced me to him and said this is this is uh jim bulger then he used whitey because they didn't like to be called whitey and um he's just on the street just like that yeah you're a 16 year old kid yeah he wanted because i was up and coming fighter at the time too even at that age so he wanted to introduce me to him scouting yeah yeah exactly and that that's

and that and also he he grew up with a family member of mine as i said earlier you know robin trucks and we talked about him yeah did you know what he was at that point i had an idea yeah that he was a whitey bulger you know his name was well well known yeah what did you think him when you first met him i was a bit as a young kid like that i was a bit in awe because i knew how much power he wielded and what respect he wielded you know yeah it was pretty pretty impressive for a young guy. What was he like? Very, very charismatic in his ways and when he spoke and stuff like that. And you knew that this was a guy that, like, had intelligence, but also you seen the ruthlessness in him, you know? And, yeah, he was no joke.

Right away you could see that. Oh, absolutely. Oh, 100%. So you meet him on the street. Like, do you have, between then and when these guys pull up on you, when Che pulls up on you when you're 19, did you have any other interactions with him? Yes. In what context?

Wasn't in a very good context, to be honest with you. I stood up to Whitey Bulger. You stood up to him? I stood up to him. Actually, twice, if you think about it. Why? Because your girlfriend drinks that on her period? No. What happened was I had threatened a guy in the bar that he was associated with, Triple O's.

And he was, this guy was going near a girl that I was dating at the time. And I was, I had a few drinks in me. No excuse. I was a young kid. I was able to get in because even underage, I was still able to get in. I feel like they don't card in Southie. Yeah, they do. They do.

They do? Yeah, they did. But I was able to get in because all the people that I knew was connected to. And so I happened to threaten a kid, and I even had a gun on me at the time. And Whitey got wind of it. And somebody said, well, he's friends with Whitey, you know. I don't give a fuck. Typical me, right?

So that got back to him. I'm standing with one of the guys who went down in the case with us, who was a drug dealer also, who I surpassed him as my time. And I was with my boxing trainer too. We were on Broadway. And Whitey Bulger, Stevie Flemmy. His number two. His number two and Kevin Weeks.

They come and they see me and I just got done. It's a summer evening. I just got done running. I did like a six, seven mile run and it was in the evening. I was on Broadway with no shirt on, sweating. It's all three of them.

Yeah, all three of them. Like the Holy Trinity. Yes. They pulled the car over. And Stevie stayed in the car, slouched down, as you usually did in a passenger seat, just looking. And why did he get out of the car with Kevin Weeks? And I was standing with Paul Moore and Tommy Connors, my trainer, and he says, hey, Red, come over here.

I want to talk to you. So because Paul had even said to me, because he was associated, he said, I don't know what you, he had just got done telling me, I don't know what you did, but fucking Whitey's looking for you, man. I don't know what you did. I said's looking for you man i don't know what you did i said whatever i don't give a what do you think i'm afraid to him you know in your mind though you gotta be i was a little concerned yeah i was a little concerned so he pulls me to the side him and kevin and pa and Paul Moore says to my trainer,

God, I hope he doesn't do anything. I hope he doesn't do anything. I hope, I hope, I hope. So my trainer says, take it easy, Paul. He's crazy, but he's not stupid, meaning me. They figured I was a whack whitey, you know, give him a fucking right hand left hook, you know. I mean, I would have if i

had to don't get me wrong i know you would now yeah definitely now but that's besides the point well he's dead now he got murdered anyway but that's besides the point as a rat bastard inside um but that said i get pulled over he pulls over to the side and he says, listen, you threatened a guy and you threatened him. And my name was brought up and you said you didn't give a fuck about me. And he says, do you got a fucking army? I'm asking you a question. Do you have an army? I said, no, I do not have an army.

I said, well, I didn't threaten you. I wasn't threatening you. Your name was brought up and used against me. So he looked at me. I said, and one thing my mother always taught me, no matter what, always stand on your own two feet, no matter what, and don't let anybody bow you. And that's what I did.

That's exactly what I did. You know, he fucking loved it. He loved it. He loved it. He looked at me and he says says if that ever happens again that someone's gonna threaten you or tries to use me against you you tell them you're my fucking friend whoa you're my fucking friend do you understand that i went went, yeah. I walked out of it, again, shining colors. I walked away in Palmore, and I went over to Palmore after that. And then I goes, why are you so nervous?

I said, and I started laughing at him. So, I mean, he meets you as a fighter. He meets you as a guy who's standing on business. And now, I guess the next time is when these guys approach you, right? And now you're a businessman too. So his crew approached me. I became part of the crew. And Billy Shea says, listen, I got a deal.

You supply us. You supply our people. You go down. You get the kilos from Miami. Bring it back. We'll give you the money to do it. And I actually helped break it up, the cocaine, because I was good at that. They weren't that good at it.

That's besides the point. I used to break it up and, you know, I'd spray. I had a bottle of gin. And I, have you ever, did you know anything about this? No. So if you want to, so you want to cut cocaine up, you know, for grams and stuff like that. This is for educational purposes, not for criminal enterprise purposes. We're following all of YouTube's community guidelines.

Please continue. Thank you. So if you want to cut cocaine, you know, so it's not as potent, if you will, and you can stretch it out to make a little more money, you take gin in a bottle,

gin that you drink. Like pangaree. Yep. Because it has no real smell to it really at all. Yeah. And you take it and that gin acts as a bonding agent. Really? Yes.

I'm a big gin guy. So you break down the cocaine, you know? Yeah. And you put it in like not powdered foam, but close to powdered foam. And you spray it lightly. Spray lightly with the gin, right? Out of a spray bottle. Then you take that cocaine and you put it into a plastic bag, a zip bag, like a solid one.

And then you take it and you put it into a vice and you let it sit there for a while. Or into a mold. We had molds. there for a while or into a mold we had molds a mold a mold vice with metal a metal mold that you you uh you you you make a mold so you fill that mold up with the cocaine and then you have two pieces of metal that will squeeze it together and then you make a brick out of it. Pat, you taking notes, bro? We need money around here. And the gin acts as a bonding agent.

So you never taste it. You never smell it. But you got to spray it really lightly. Not that I'm here to teach anybody to do that. Right, again, this is educational purposes. Don't do this. I'm just talking about, I'm just talking about the history of what I did. Yes. And, um, so I was good at that. I was kind

of like a chemist, if you will. A real Walter White. Yeah. Plenty of white. Um, so that said, um, I used to break it up and, and, and, and stuff like that. So Billy Shea says, I'm going to tell you what. You come with us. You get the drugs. You bring out. You're our main connect. We chop up the money every couple of weeks. Beautiful.

Big money. Beautiful. What are we talking? Big money. I was making a few, $150,000000 to 100,000 every couple of weeks. That's a lot of, I mean, that's a lot of money now.

Just, just, just on that end of it with them. There was another end of it. Yeah. He told me I didn't have to add my customers in. Oh, so you got the double dip.

I got the double dip. But hold on. Okay, there's more. There was a catch. The boss, Billy Shea, comes to me and says, Hey, some of the cocaine that you're getting, you bring up. Take some of that out and sell it to your customers and give me a piece of that. I went, well, i said that you know what

about the other guys if they find out about that you know that's they might be upset about that right i said and second of all you're going to weaken the product if i do that because that means i have to add more cut to the Coke. He said, I don't care. I'm the boss. You do what I say. You understand that? Fine. You're the boss.

I say something like my boxing trainer at the time told me. I told him the situation. I said, I didn't like that. He goes, yeah. If something happens, he's going to throw you under the bus. I said, I know that. That's why I'm mentioning it to you. He said, well, who's the boss? You or him? I said, he's going to throw you under the bus. I said, I know that. That's why I'm mentioning it to you. He said, well, who's the boss, you or him?

I said, he is. Well, if anybody asks you about anything, go talk to the boss about it. If you feel that the product isn't what it should be, go talk to the boss. Don't talk to me. Why are you coming to me? I'm not the boss. Good advice. So, holy behold.

Time goes by. The other guys in the crew come to me. They said, hey, Red. It's a problem. Yeah, what's the problem? Well, the product isn't that good.

People are complaining. Yeah. Why are you coming to me? Are you doing something wrong? I went, nope. I said, I'm only doing what the boss told me to do. Go talk to the boss. So they didn't go back to the boss.

They went to Whitey. Oh. The big boss. And Whitey said to them, I know both characters. He said, that kid's too loyal. Meaning me. Yeah.

He wouldn't be doing something if he wasn't told to do it. Right, right, right. He wouldn't be doing something if he wasn't told to do it. Right, right, right. He wouldn't. I know him. And I know the other guy, how cute he is and how, you know, deceptive he could be. So I get wind of it that they're calling.

Billy Shea was down in Florida because he had homes down there and he had a real estate that he did down there. He was down in Florida and he got the call to come back to Boston that Whitey wanted to see him. And if you get a call that Whitey wants to see you, that's not good. There's a problem. Do you even go to that? i feel like you just get the passport throw on the mask get on some fucking plane go to another country and call today yeah well

unfortunately for him i said to myself when i heard that he was being called back up and why he was going to have a conversation with him i said well i guess i'm going to leave town for the weekend you can guarantee that. So I did. I booked a plane flight to go to Montreal, Canada. It was not only going on a flight out of state, I was going out of the fucking country for that one. So holy behold, I'm going to my plane in the terminal. Who's walking towards me? But Billy shea would just get off the plane

from florida he looked at me stunned red red nervous wreck red red why he's calling me back do you know anything about it nope i said i have no idea. Really? He's calling you? Really? He's calling you back? Oh, yeah? I was like, yeah, asshole. You tried to throw me under the bus. Guess what? It ain't working. See you later. So we had to answer those questions.

And Whitey wasn't happy. Whitey told him, listen, the only reason I'm not killing you is because you made me a lot of money in my day. Go back to Florida and stay there. You're out. You're out. So you never saw Billy again? I did not, but someone else did.

My boxing trainer. He goes, they're fucking red he could have had me killed do you know the shit that he does and and all that he could have had me killed i could have been dead he didn't tell me i see him in the airport you know yeah well dude you were trying to get me killed yeah but that's that world though you sign up for that no 100 so anyhow after all of that as i said earlier the dea is on us there's all kinds of surveillance and um how many years into like from the conversation at 19 to where we are now? Are you two, three years in? I'm like three years in.

Okay. So you're still young as fuck. Yeah. Yeah. So all of a sudden I get the call, come down to the store and say, you know, want to show me something? Sure. I get out of the basement and that's when the Uzis hit me. Yeah.

We talked about that. And that's when I became the main boss after that running the whole organization now you had said earlier i didn't want to go down the tangent though but now would be a good time on on the history front of this stuff you had said the winter hill gang wasn't wasn't like the main thing that wasn't what you were doing what why do we always refer like in pop culture to whitey is like the head of the winter hill gang he was not the head of the winter hill gang howie winters was a guy named howie winters he was not the head guy he um after howie he ratted on howie winters by the way him and stevie phlegm and howie winters went away for hoss racing and fixing and all that

they were the ones that ratted on his own people uh but that said that that whole uh group fractioned after that right and that's what years are we talking oh jesus um 70s 70s yeah yeah yeah but prior to my my me i was only a baby then so if i could draw a parallel here it's almost similar to like if you were in the 1970s not that they did this but referring to the genovese family is like the luciano family still right lucky had been gone for a long time it would be like wrong to kind of say it like that yeah exactly so we everybody thinks oh he's a potter went to hill gang and they always blame me for being a potter i am not with the way i was never with the Winter Hill Gang.

I was with the Irish mob with Whitey Bulger. That was it. And he ran it. And he ran it. He was the head of the Irish mob. He was the head of the Irish mob. Did you guys have a lot of interaction with the Patriarca family and the Italians up there? Is that who it is, the Patriarca family?

They're out of Rhode Island. They're out of Rhode Island. They're out of Rhode Island. But who's the Boston family? The Angulos. Angulos. Did you have like interactions with them as far as like sharing territory? I did not have interaction with them at that time at all. But Whitey and Stevie did.

And Whitey and Stevie were giving information to the crooked john connelly fbi agent against them i love that every time you make sure you say crooked that's thank you because you got to brand them yeah well it's the truth yeah um so that said they were given information on helping out the fbi against them which was basically their competition in some ways if you will so is the fbi i remember i used to look into this whole thing back after he got caught and stuff like that. And, you know, the part had been out, like I looked at this case so much, but some of the details I forget. Did the FBI initially set up the Whitey Bulger thing strictly to go after the Italians or was it more than that?

Yeah, pretty much. You're right. Because John Conley was the one who came, was facilitated with Whitey and John Conley because John Conley came from the same projects as Whitey Bulger. And Whitey supposed to be when John was a young kid, Whitey protected him a little bit. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, that, that whole protected him a little bit. Yeah. Okay? So, yeah, that whole relationship was facilitated in that sense. That way John Connolly could look like, you know,

the greatest FBI agent that there ever was. I took down the Italian mob in Boston, and that's what he used Stevie and Whitey for. Okay. But, yeah, of course. But, yeah, so on court tapes, Whitey and Stevie definitely had dealings with them. And on court tapes at the time, you had Jerry and Julio saying, you know, Whitey and Stevie, they'll kill anybody for us.

So they did work, you know, their own work. Absolutely. Okay. So, and again, you guys, their own work. Absolutely. Okay. So, and again, you guys don't know any of this. This comes out all the way later as far as you know. Yeah. Nobody knew anything. Right.

Now, you're pulled into this, into the Irish mob as, you know, a drug trafficker. But I don't want to get like sappy with this, but like does it start to become a brotherhood like you hear about with the italians where suddenly like you're a part of this thing that's bigger than you or are you still just kind of like day to day in the game of like hey i'm great at fucking dealing cocaine and now i just do it for these guys no i no you're absolutely correct there um i've i've had people come to me and say hey i got a problem here uh kids in the neighborhood they're hanging on my corner and they're making too much noise. Can you do me a favor? Could you get down and talk to these people and stuff like that?

And I'd say, absolutely. And I'd get down, I'd drive by and I'd say, hey. As you give them the thumb, I'd beat it. Do me a favor, beat it, fellas. Don't be hanging around here, you understand? Yeah. Okay, Red. You know, because they knew everybody

knew you know so you felt a sense of power oh absolutely what was that like you're young at that age yeah i mean all the guys that i looked up to that were like my older brothers or father figures i i surpassed them all all those guys, and I became their boss. Did you get off on that a little bit? No, I didn't get off on it. I just, it was like for a young kid that came from the projects that didn't have anything, that all he knew was boxing, if you will, in the streets um it was a sense of uh believe it or not because it was a business it was a sense of accomplishment that these guys

were here but i can't i and i was way down here and i surpassed them so it was a sense of accomplishment and success and and dealing with a business if you will because it was a sense of accomplishment and success in dealing with a business, if you will, because it really ran like a business. And so I felt a little definitely accomplishment with that. I didn't get off on it, but I was proud of that. I was proud of it. Whether it was illegal or not, I still was successful, and I was proud of that. I was proud of it. Whether it was illegal or not, I still was successful. And I was proud of that. Did you ever get into drugs too yourself or were you just strictly dealing? Let me get a little water here.

Sure. Take your time. So I was never into drugs. But I did try it but I did try it. I did experience it. And I had a really, really, really, really, really, really bad experience with it. It was my Coke at the time. And I said, ah, fuck it. I'm going to try it.

So I tried it. Whoa, I whoa i like this hey this is nice nice high running around and i by the way i didn't have i when i had it i i didn't have cut stuff i had the pure stuff i had the pure the no gin yeah no gin exactly So that said, I had like, you know, an ounce. I started off on an ounce of cocaine, of pure shit. And I went, excuse me? That'll do it. Yeah. And I went out with my friends and we were all, you know, snorting and running around and having fun.

And this is my first time ever really using cocaine at all, at all. Okay. These guys, we used to cocaine not me you know i was like you know it was great in the beginning and then all of a sudden this high i needed to keep giving myself it because the high was going down and then all of a sudden i started getting crazy paranoid and i just i i couldn't i just couldn't come out of it i was looking around my eyes were bugging and i remember going into a chinese restaurant with them and they wanted to eat i couldn't eat i couldn't i don't know how these guys do it right finally they brought me back to uh apartment and and they gave me nyquil nyquil to come down to go to sleep

so i'm drinking almost a whole bottle of nyquil overdosing on NyQuil to go to sleep and calm down. It finally worked eventually, believe it or not. The next day I wake up, and my trainer, Tommy Connors, he knew. I told him, I had a cook. I did this. I said, oh, man. He went to my buddy because he trained with a fighter, too. And he said to him, don't ever do that again with him.

And he goes, yeah, he can't handle it. Yeah. He cannot handle it, my buddy says to my trainer. My trainer goes, well, that's a good fucking thing, isn't it, that he can't handle it? And that was the end of cocaine. Ever trying cocaine ever again for me, I can guarantee you that.

And it was a great lesson learned. I stayed away from using it and I just concentrate on making money and trying to get as much money and have something for myself, a better life, whatever you want to call it, you know, getting out of the projects. Were you living in a really nice apartment at this point too?

You get a nice place for yourself? I did. Yeah, I did. Matter of fact, I drove by my old place the other day where they indicted me and got arrested and all that stuff. And it was a place called Thomas Park, and they have a monument there. For you? No, not for me.

It was back in the George Washington days because the history of Boston is so vast. Oh, yeah. And it was a hill called the Heights, and has a a monument there and um um george washington set up soldiers back then okay um but he didn't have that many soldiers so we set up props dummies that look like soldiers wait i don't even know this. I love the Revolutionary War. This is new. So now when the British came into the harbor in Salty, they looked up with their

spyware and they looked and they seen all these soldiers on top of the hills with cannons and everything else. They have a whole cavalry. So they took their boats and they dispersed the area. They said, if we get any closer, they're going to cavalry. So they took their boats and they dispersed the area. They said, if we get

any closer, they're going to hit us hard. We got to get out of here. Look at the troops up there. Meanwhile, there wasn't that many men. He just made props and dummies. That's amazing. He okey-doked them. I thought that was just Mel Gibson and the Patriot doing that shit. No. Nope.

Old G.W GW was in bed. Old GW did it. That was the original G. I still think you need a monument next to his, though. You know, your history is important, too. Well, I don't know about that. There might be a lot of dogs pissing on it, maybe. That's all right.

Yeah. Yeah. But this whole time, like you had mentioned earlier, at this point, you didn't talk with your middle sister, but the rest of the family, like you had a relationship with your mom. And I assume at the time, your other two sisters, what did they know what you were doing? but they knew I was doing something. And they, you know, hey, world gets around. I mean, if more than one person knows your business, everybody knows it. So, yeah, they knew I was up to no good, and included my mom. I wanted to buy her a home and everything else. She wouldn't take it because she said no. She says, I know that money is not good money, and I'm not going to do that.

So I just gave her as much as I could at times, and whenever she needed money, I'd, you know, here, Ma, here's this, here's that, whatever you need. She never pulled you aside, though? Oh, she did. She said, I don't know what you're doing, but whatever you're doing, I know it's not good. Oh, I'm managing bars, Ma. I'm doing real estate, Ma.

You know, I'd tell her anything, you know, throw anything at her, you know, if you will. She knew I was lying to her. Your mother knows her child well. You know that. Yeah. At what point did you not have a relationship with your other sisters? Just growing up eventually, you know.

I mean, and then sometimes they didn't talk to each other or whatever and just, I don't know. It's just dysfunctional. And we grew up that way, unfortunately. And it's sad. It's sad. And even today, though, it's still that way. Yeah. Yep.

Even today. That's a shame. I hope that's a shame. Even though my youngest sister was at our wedding and stuff like that in Hawaii. All right. That's a start. That's exactly yeah yeah yeah all right so there's a little bit there a little bit a little bit a little bit all right okay but during this time as you're right the door is always open for her good that's that's a good way to be. During this time, though, as you're getting all this power, what is the – like you mentioned you got to know Whitey a little bit in these encounters as you're going along the way. But now you're in the inner sanctum and you're bringing in a lot of money for him.

Are you spending a lot of time with him personally? No. He had the myth of being no drugs. Whitey Butler, I don't sell drugs. I don't. That was a myth. Don't they all? Exactly.

So my relationship with him would, I'd meet him in the evening. Sometimes during the day, I'd go to the local base, if you will, liquor store, store, rotary store and all that. And I'd come in or go in. Whitey didn't come out till late afternoon anyway on his schedule. But I would meet him a lot at night. Castle Island, where you wouldn't be detected. Columbus Park, which was across the street. There was like a bathhouse, if you will, and basketball courts.

I'd meet him behind there because I'd park my car in O'Colony Projects, in the projects, and then I'd weave my way through the projects and run across, and then I'd meet him there because there was surveillance on us. Yeah, yeah. And he definitely didn't want to. He wanted to be isolated from that. So most of the time, we met in secret.

I should say out of surveillance of the law. I think a couple of times from my case, I remember reading about how they actually had us, surveillance us at night because I had an issue with a kid and the kid's father worked for him at one time. And, um, he knew the kid since he was a kid. And, um, I, I, this kid had shot a friend of mine and he was sitting near my house that I had one of my places I had, which was near the base of operations. And I seen him in the car in the dark, just sitting there. And I'm like, I'm trying to put two and two together. I guess, is that son of a bitch waiting for me?

I see him, right? I'm going, hmm. So I was with a guy, Paul Moore. And he says, I think that son of a bitch is waiting for me. I said, oh, I'll take good care of him. So Paul Moore says, hey, do you need me with you? Do you want me to help you? I said, no.

Just go on your way. I don't need you helping me with anything. He ran down to the liquor store with base operations to tell Whitey. Whitey, he goes, Red's ready to do something wrong to that kid over there. Who? He tells him.

His nickname was Black Man. So he said, oh, Black Man. Okay. He goes, really? They get, I go out afterwards to the back way because it was near the projects. And I was going to come around the back way on him. And he was gone. Oh. I said, where did this son of a gun go?

So I got my vehicle and I started driving around salty looking for him. All of a sudden, here comes Kevin Weeks Red I heard what happened Whitey's got him now in the car Yeah So I said okay He said you got a weapon on you

I said of course I got a weapon He said, you got a weapon on you? I said, of course I got a weapon. He said, could you leave it behind, please? Yeah, all right. I left the gun behind, but I didn't leave my knife behind. I didn't tell him about the knife. So we get there, and it was in the evening, in the night, and he had the kid in the car, in the front passenger seat. And Whitey didn't let anybody sit behind him in the car, ever.

He let Kevin Weeks sit behind him, but he would never, I'll tell you, he didn't ever let me sit behind him. He just didn't, I always had to sit in the, if I was in the the car i had to sit in the back where he could see over his shoulder i mean watch me in the mirror i don't know why i mean who knows paranoia yeah exactly well he did say that i reminded him of a lot of himself when he when he was a kid you know uh so you got the kid in the car. The kid's explaining himself. He goes, if I was waiting for you, you'd know about it. I said, okay, here we go. We got a tough guy in front of us.

I said, this ain't going to go good. So he's going on and on and on. He thinks everything's like he's a tough guy. Everything's going to be all right because, you know, Uncle Jim Whitey is going to, you know, he's with tough guy everything's gonna be all right because uh he you know uncle jim whitey is gonna you know he's with me you know so when he said that to me if i was waiting for you you'd know about it i patted him on the back of his shoulder from the back seat i said i guess we're done here aren't we then whitey's head snapped back at me and looks at me. We looked at each other in the eyes, glared at each other in the eyes.

And he turned and he viciously, verbal assault on this kid. I'll blow your fucking brains out myself. Get the fuck out of there This is my man This is my guy Because Whitey knew He knew He got the

He got the message when I said I guess we're done here then The kid started to cry He started to weep I was like What the fuck is going on here I'm saying to myself the kid started to cry. He started to weep. I was like, what the fuck is going on here? I'm saying to myself. One minute he's a tough guy.

The next minute, now he's fucking crying like a little bitch. This guy yelled out by Woody Bulger. Yeah, I've been yelled at him too, but I didn't fucking, I didn't cry. I had fucking guns put on me. I didn't cry. You're not a crier? Yeah, of course. I only cry for my wife. So anyway, the kid get out of the car.

He left. And I was ready to leave too. Or he said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You'll stay here with me. We're going to go for a ride. We're going to ride around for a little bit. He wanted me to cool off. And he wanted to tell me the real reason why he was there.

Which was? He drove me around. He said, the kid's got problems. He's a little mentally, emotionally, mentally fucking, you know, crazy. He said, but I'm going to tell you why he was there. Because his girlfriend worked at the store. And the store was where he was sitting. He could see the store. And my apartment was here.

So just a coincidence. For me. Yeah. Is it just a coincidence? For me. Yeah. And he was watching a store for his girlfriend because he felt that she was cheating on him. And she was. She was 19 years old fucking Stevie Flemmy. I thought you were going to say you.

No. She was, Stevie Flemmy Oh, I thought she was going to say you. No, Stevie Fleming was an older man. Yeah, he had to be, what, 60, something like that? Yeah, somewhere around there, late 50s anyway, 60. Yeah. Good for him. So that's why the kid was keeping an eye on her and see if she was cheating on him. Had he seen her leave with fucking Stevie Fleming,

I would have liked to have seen that one happen. I would have been like, okay, go ahead. Let's see what happens now with that kid. You know? I mean, never mind me. You know? Really.

That could have been messy. Yeah. For him. I can guarantee you that. Uh-huh. They might not have found him or her after that one. Yeah. To be honest with you.

Seriously. That kid was, if he even attempted something like that, that would have been his downfall, man. He would have been gone then. How much did you find out while you're doing all this work? Like you're on the drug side. It's not like you're out there whacking people or anything. But how much did you hear credibly or directly about bodies dropping and people getting killed?

Well, at my time, bodies weren't dropping. Okay. Any bodies that they had at that time was way before me. I was a young guy when I, you know, I was the youngest guy involved. So it was later on and those bodies were already buried and gone at that time before I even got there. Got it. So when you get a guy like some rat saying that, oh, how come he didn't get indicted? Because Whitey killed all these people, and he didn't get indicted too for murders?

No, you idiot. Because they were all done before I even got there was even involved you moron that's why so you had such power that there was no need at that time to even have to demonstrate it you're no no as a matter of fact he didn't like me losing my temper yeah he didn't like me losing my temper and i and i lost my temper quite a time quite a few times you would never lose your time no No, no, no. I tried not to. Let's put it that way.

But no, he used to talk to me and not to lose my temper. I've lost my temper with people, but I also lost it with people who were surveilling us. I would, like one day, one of the agents had called me a moron. Hey, Red, you're nothing but a fucking moron. An FBI guy did? He was with the DEA. And I said, excuse me? What the fuck did you just call me?

Oh, man, I lost my shit. This is a true story. And I was in front of the store and I was with a bunch of guys and friends and it was the two of them in the two of them in the car. And I jumped on top of the hood. The front of the hood of the car. Of the DEA's car.

They were with Organized Crime working with DEA. And I started jumping in the car, kicking their window and telling them, get the fuck out of the car and see where the moron I am. Somewhere back at base, they're like, bingo, got one. So Whitey got wind of it. He heard all about it.

And he chastised me about it. said don't be ever don't ever do that again do not do that again you're only hurting yourself yeah so i never did it again after that. But, yeah. So those are the things that he used to say to me. And he never – if somebody pisses you off or something, don't do anything. Let me know about it. If you're like – you're talking about the fact though we got into this because you're explaining that you were really seeing this guy usually at night for some business or dispute type thing it's not like you're hanging with him at the bar every day yeah i mean there was a there was a couple of times where he came

down to triple o's and i was down there with some some of the guys and i'd be on one end of the bar and he'd be on the other and i'd buy him a beer and then he'd buy me a beer, you know, a Heineken or something. But Whitey never drank really at all. Um, and, and quite frankly, he's the one who, um, excuse me, that used to talk to me, uh, about stuff like even during the day, I didn't like see him that much during the day because he wasn't around during the day that much only in the later afternoon. Um, but did see him we'd talk and um uh he talked about fine wines um fancy restaurants and stuff and uh and stuff like that and um so i started doing the same thing i started emulating him in almost every single way um that i could through limited interactions limited in interaction yes so did you view him more as a god than a father figure kind of deal in the beginning it was more like a um you know

this is why he bowed you this guy's a legend, you know. Yeah, yeah. And then after that, after getting in and being around him, it started becoming like a father figure to me. And I remember when I had a little – back then, I had a little tail that was on my hair. I had short hair, but I had a little tail. It was kind of like – Oh, you had the rat tail. Yeah, unfortunately.

I thought you didn't do anything with rats. Yeah, exactly. But it was kind of like the thing in Salty at the time. It was a fad. So I had it, and I went into the store, and he was reading the paper, and he had his glasses on he looked up and he goes red yeah and i was talking to kevin weeks and he says what is that what do you mean what what's what use that in the back of your hair. I said, oh, that is just a till, you know,

some people wearing it. So he goes, you know, you're a clean cut, good looking kid. He said, that don't look good on you. You get rid of it. You look better. I went, really? He goes, yeah. He goes, Kevin, you get a pair of scissors. I said, make sure you cut it straight, I said to him. You know, so, you know, straight across. So Kevin cut it, cut it, stripped it off. I looked at him, good job. That was into ever having anything like that again. So, yeah, I was kind of like a father figure at that moment.

And, you know, again, I'm going to say this again. So yeah, I was kind of like a father figure at that moment. And, you know, like, again, I'm going to say this again. I gravitated towards that because I never had a father. And I felt, you know, it was, it meant something that he was caring for me at that moment, you know, if you will, as crazy as, and as small as it is. As a young boy, you know, a young kid, you know, psychologically, you know, that's what you feel. For sure. What about Flemmy and Weeks? Did you spend a lot of time with them or was it a similar kind of thing? You see them when you see Whitey? No, I seen Kevin Moore actually. And when I seen, and the same thing with Stevie. Stevie wasn't around all the time in Southie. He was other places.

But when he did come around, he was in the store. We'd talk all the time. Matter of fact, Stevie and Whitey, they were into juicing, you know, like juices and fresh juice. Oh, I thought you meant like steroids. No, no, no, no. Fresh juice, vegetables. Really? Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. They ate very well, trained and worked out and and uh took care of themselves and their diet and everything oh yes and uh me i was doing the same thing uh training and dieting and doing the right thing and conditioning and um i i was juicing at that time too i mean this is years ago and uh you guys were a health club too. Yeah, exactly. And, um, that at that time, Stevie, we were talking, uh, Stevie would say, you know, sugar is so bad for you. And, you know, talk about that with me. And, um, and, uh, he, uh, he gave me some books on

juicing. So yeah, it was, which I appreciated at the time um but yeah no it wasn't a whole lot of interaction but yeah we yeah i could i could walk up to him he'd be there and whatever you need steve what's a stevie hey red how you doing uh yeah how's the day today nothing but a gentleman to me all the time even though he was a rat himself he was a rat before whitey by the way he was he was how do we know that uh back from the files and all that he was a rat for uh this guy h paul rico oh what a name and he ended up buying dying in prison years later because they were bringing him in for a murder that happened in uh, and he was associated with the murder. He actually hired the guys to do the murder, told the guys to do the murder.

Are you talking about Rico or Flemmy? Rico. Okay. So eventually they got a, they, you know, after Stevie spilled the beans, now they went after Rico and everyone else. And when they all got indicted at that time, Whitey and him and everything. And we know that Whitey and Flemmy, any of that ratting, that started back as early as like the 70s, right? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And it was really run by John Connolly. He was the point man on it. No. H. Paul Rico was one of the main guys even before Connolly. Yep. Oh, wait a second i just misunderstood what you said yes when you said h paul rico i thought you meant they were ratting on that guy you're saying he was an fbi he was the fbi guy he was the he was the handler and he also

went down for murder eventually he was going he was going to trial in his early 80s, I believe it was. He was. And they brought him in. He ended up dying. He ended up passing away before he could even do any type of trial. He died. Wow. God, the job applications in the Boston FBI are not too great.

Yeah. Okay. So when did you... First of all, what would you say? You're like a top 10 guy at your peak? What do you mean? Within the Irish mob in Boston? Oh, yeah. Oh, of course.

Yeah. You're like up there. It was, you had Whitey, Stevie, Kevin. Yep. And then I was down there. Right. I was right there. No. And then I was down there. Right. I was right there. No one else.

I was no one else. I didn't listen to anybody. Wow. Only Whitey. That's who I listened to. No one else told me what to do. Whitey was the boss. Whatever Whitey said, if he told Kevin to tell me, then Kevin would tell me.

Got it. But yeah, that's the level I was was at how did you end up going down well um as i said earlier why do you got wind of the dea's investigation yep and he needed someone to isolate insulate him in a buffer and who better than the guy that he just put the guy through the test on knowing that he'll never rat and that was me but how did he set you up like what was the actual he knew the investigation was happening. He could have said, hey, listen, stop everything right now. But he didn't. He let me go, and he fed me to the DEA. That way he figured he gave the DEA something,

and that would be the end of it. Yeah. And what was the day you got arrested? Where were you and how did it go down? I knew the investigation was happening, of course, and I knew that the indictments were eventually coming soon. Wait, you knew? Yeah.

But you were upset because he didn't tell you, but you knew? No. I knew the indictment was coming, yes. I did know that through investigations, okay? Yeah. But we got wind of it on the street. Okay. Okay.

And he could have told you earlier. He could have told me in the very beginning. Yeah. So you could have stopped those operations. I wouldn't have done it. I would have backed away. I would have just ended. As a matter of fact, I went to him and said, hey, listen, there's so much heat.

I think I'm going to stop. I think we should just rest everything and let it go down and just like stop. You know, just, you know, take a break. We made enough money. Just take a break. He said, oh, you don't want to do that. Just be, oh, yeah. Oh, you don't want to do that.

Walk the plank, my lackey. Yeah. You don't want to do it. I'll come back to boxing i was still training in boxing i was still young enough you know plenty young nah you don't want to do that you're gonna go get hit in the head and you know be punch drunk this and that you're gonna be on tv you don't want to be on tv the people see you so i looked at him. I was like, hmm, all right. He said, just be more careful in surveillance and don't say anything on the phone and stuff like this

and, you know, shit like that. But something just didn't sit well with me. My antennas were going off, if you will. I said, all right. So I continued to do what I was doing and just try to be more safe and careful. How would you be more safe and careful? Insulate yourself?

Just no. Just doing things in the middle of the night. Because he always said, nighttime is free camouflage. Yeah. And I didn't know how extensive the case was. I'm sure he knew. That's for sure. But he knew it was coming. And I had word that it would possibly be coming, but it was too late by then.

Yeah. You know? So he used me and everyone else as a sacrificial lamb to feed to the DEA and insulate himself. He says, here you go, you got everybody, but not me. Where were you when you were arrested? I was in front of, well, first I got arrested prior to that because they went around and the DEA did, and they started with warrants and started going to businesses that Whitey had and then went to some homes. And, um, I got wind of it. I was like, what the hell is happening? I didn't know what the hell was happening. You know, what the, what the, what are they doing? Uh, they're taking the computers, this, that, whatever they had in the store and stuff. I drove by. I looked. I was like, oh, boy.

Maybe I should get out of here. This is probably me getting indicted. Maybe I should go away for the weekend, you know? Another weekend getaway to, you know? So I was waiting for a friend, and he was going to meet me. And I had this secondhand car. And sometimes it needed a little oil, so I was just checking the oil on it.

You know, inconspicuous car. Nothing fancy. And I had the hood up. And when I had the hood up, I went to go shut the hood. And here comes the agent. Comes around to the side and he goes, hey, Red, where are you going? I said, none of your business.

So I shut the hood and I looked. There was a line of agents from one side of the street to the other. I turn around and look. There's another line of agents from one street to the other. I turn around and look, there's another line of agents from one sidewalk to the other. I was like, oh, fuck. Right? So he says, Red, we want to go up into your house. We saw you drive by the store, Red, when they were down there taking the stuff out.

And I said, oh, yeah? you want to go up into my house you got a warrant and that's when shit hit the fan you know I got a fucking warrant well fuck here we go me and aggressiveness don't get along too well so I said

go fuck yourself fuck and before you know – you know, fuck. And before you know it, we get in a tango match. A tango match. A tango match, you know, grabbing each other. You're grabbing the agent. Well, he grabbed me. What the fuck?

It's only like two armies of agents around you. Oh, well, I learned that after the fact. I can tell you that. So before you know it, they all converged on me, had me up against the car. My arm is bent back. My wrist was fucking killing me. Then they get me on the ground and said, Red, handcuff me, brought me up into my house, broke in when I could have just let him in,

but I wasn't doing that. And I had a SolarFlex machine from years ago. I used to work out. I don't know if you know what they are. A SolarFlex? Yes. Like a BowFlex? Something like that, yeah.

Okay. But this was a machine you could hang from it and then do pull-ups on it, like sit-ups on it but lying but from down hanging from your legs so um and and then you could do like weight like a rubber band weights you know nice so and it was in a room uh one of a bedroom that i had i used as a workout room and i had a window there that overlooked the city my place was nice it overlooked the city and stuff i had a big deck and it was it was pretty nice it was just brand new built it sounds like matt damon's apartment departed right and there's a lot of things coming from that movie today and um and that said um i'm sitting there on my solar flexlex machine. The agents watching me and guarding me. He said, are you a boxer?

I said, yeah. He goes, oh, Penelope Whitaker's a friend of mine. You know, back in the day, Penelope Whitaker was a great champ from Virginia. Oh, you know Penelope Whitaker? Yeah, I knew Penelope Whitaker back in the day. I know him back. Yeah. Oh, good, good.

He was talking, just boxing with me. Oh, good, good. He was talking, just boxing with me. Oh, good, good. Yeah. Because if he asked me any questions or anything, I would have told him to go fuck himself. But that's besides the point. Oh, you want to talk boxing? I could talk boxing. You know?

So they weren't arresting anybody. They were just collecting information, if you will. So I knocked at the door. I figured it's my friend that I'm supposed to go meet, right? I said, get away from the door. There's DEA in here. Get away from the door. Leave.

The fucking door gets swung open by a guy. And then another guy comes walking behind him. And he's got this hat on like Elliot Ness. G-Man kind of thing. G-Man thing, yeah. So he comes in. He looks at me. He goes, how you doing, son?

I said, well, I said, I'm all right, but my wrist is really sore. I said, if you could take me and just cuff me to my machine and leave this one alone, I said, I'd appreciate that. How's that sound? Because it's really killing me right now. He looks, walks behind me, looks out the window to Boston. He stares, turns around, and crunches the cuffs even harder on my wrist. And he says, I don't want you weaseling out. And he walked out because I'm sometimes like a joker at times too no you're not no no no absolutely not i'm not much of a comedian no i can tell you that um so he walks out of the room and i says well it says to the other agent that was watching me it goes well i guess ellian s doesn't like me you know oh yeah and he was the head head dea agent of all new england oh the guy that his last name was brown and by the way that's my wife's maiden name brown not related right not related no did you check that i did yes okay yes that's good That's my wife's maiden name, Brown. Not related, right? Not related, no. Did you check that?

I did, yes. Okay. Yes. That's good. So they took you in after that, right? So nobody got arrested but me. I was the only one who got arrested for assaulting battery on a federal officer. My lawyer, it's in the papers, the lawyers, you know, TV,

this, you know, news. And I got billed out $25,000 a cost. They billed me out $250,000 bond, whatever it was. And my lawyer says, I don't, this ain't over.

This is going to be a big thing. Tony Cardinale, famous lawyer, represented all kinds of mob. He represented Ian Julio's in Boston too. Yep. He says to me, yeah, this ain't over. He said that they get these charges, assault and battery. Assault and battery? They fucking attacked me, he says.

I said, I was only fucking defending myself. Try that one in court anyhow i knew the phones were bugged oh they were oh my house was bugged yeah everything was bugged cars phones apartments you name it uh so you didn't talk anything in the car or talk anything in the on the phone or you're not supposed to or talk anything in the car or talk anything on the phone or you're not supposed to talk anything in the house. But I did have surveillance equipment that would evade that, that I used to hook up. It sent out a high pitch. Years ago, they had the recording.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I bought all this shit in New York. So the recording would turn and that tape, if you sent out a high pitch, it would screw up the tape. Yeah. So you couldn't get the actual wording. Oh, my God. I had that equipment.

And they were like in briefcases, Samsonite briefcases. Yeah. It was two speakers and then one main board that you would run off of. Anyhow, I didn't use it too well, too much. I should have used it more, I can tell you that. And you could actually hook it up to the phone. And if you were talking on the phone, it would send a high pitch to the phone. And so if there was a recording, it would do the same thing. It couldn't record it.

It puts like a whale call over it almost. Yeah, something like that. And you would have a conversation, but they couldn't pick it up on the recording because that would be erased. So anyhow, I get on the phone. I said, called some friends. I said, yeah. I said, the woman next door, she's coming to my defense.

And she's really good friends with my mom. She's known me since I was a kid. And she's seen these people attack me. And she's going to come as a witness for me and tell the court and everything else. And the guy behind me, who's such and such his father, he's coming to court for me too. And he's going to say the same thing because they all saw what they did to me. And I was just like, you know, trying to defend myself, you know. Yeah.

Holy behold, they dropped the charges they actually dropped it because they're the witnesses must have worked that was it wow they were gonna they figured out he got these people he's working it now the reason real real reason why and i of course i thought that at the time but the real reason why they dropped those charges assault battery on a federal officer, was because the big charges were coming. And that didn't matter. It didn't matter. The big charges that were coming towards me, yeah, it didn't matter. How long until they came down?

I want to say eight months. Well, all right. So that's a window. What are you doing during that six eight months i kept making money trying to do whatever i could are you working with whitey oh yeah oh yeah but you're just doing like collections and stuff uh no i was selling drugs still fuck yeah it's shitting me the charge is still coming down you're still doing yeah fuck it what what did what did he say though because at this point now you now they've come you didn't shitting me. Fuck it. The charge is still coming down. You're still doing it. Yeah, fuck it.

What did he say, though? Because at this point, now they're coming. He didn't say anything. I just kept making money. I wasn't even paying him at the time. No, I just made whatever I could. I wasn't a lot of drugs, but it was some. I was just making money. Pay the bills.

Yeah, pay the bills. Exactly. And then you get arrested. And then they came for me for the real indictment I got arrested and um what were the charges like what were you facing it was a

CCE continuing criminal enterprise 20 to life 20 to life what's that like you're like 24 listen that was a young guy i had no idea what the fuck that meant to me you know all i i do know what 20 to life meant but i had no idea what the statues or the charges or the numbers or whatever you want to call it uh meant and um but did that send

like a shiver down your spine that you're like meaning you obviously never ratted or anything like that but was there like a like an instant i don't know self-protection feeling you're like, meaning you obviously never ratted or anything like that, but was there like a, like an instant, I don't know, self-protection feeling you're getting? Like, holy fuck, I got to figure out how to get out of this. So, well, you're always, you're always trying to defend. You know, that's, that's made in me as a fighter, as a kid growing up in the gutter and getting beaten up and everything else. It's just instinct for me and my being to defend. So, yeah. I mean, you know, I tried everything I was dinking and everything,

and, you know, I wasn't going down easy, I can tell you that. I was fighting tooth and nail. So almost everyone got out on bail but me. Because they were all lower level. Well, they weren't as high as me, no. And they wanted me to feel the real pressure in the interrogation and stuff like that. They wanted you to rat. They wanted me to rat and I wouldn't.

Did it ever come up that they're like, oh, we want you to rat on Whitey Bulger and i wouldn't so did they ask did it ever come up that they're like oh we want you to rat on what he bought oh yeah oh yeah like oh yeah they went right for the top right oh yeah they didn't they didn't want to they didn't care about anybody smaller than them i only asked that because on the back end like i know this is dea but fbi is technically handling those guys unbeknownst to you so i didn't know if they like skirted around that they didn't know the dea didn't know they were with them with the fbi either right but i'm saying like if the fbi had been like no no go after these you know like pull the big dick kind of thing because they know right and they're like no no go after these guys they're the real players or something like that eventually the dea the dea did start to catch on and say, something's not right with the FBI and Whitey and Stevie.

Because every time there was a bug that they planted, Whitey always found it. Gone, yeah. Always fucking found it. Even with our bug detectors that we had, he always found it gone yeah always fucking found it even with our bug detectors that we had um he always found it even when the da was doing it when the da was doing the feds didn't do it because he was with the feds yeah but i'm saying like the feds knew when the da was doing it and where they were putting it yeah because they were telling the feds and john conley was tipping off whitey oh my god you think he would have told me the son of a bitch huh yeah apparently not sacrificial lamb for him and he figured hey the kid he ain't never

gonna rat he's got big balls he's solid he's solid and he's young he can take the hit and when he gets out if everything's still kosher he can come back with me yeah that's what he did to a lot of guys oh he was a rectified it to himself in a way yeah whatever however he thought of it yeah so yeah um but did i think about i said oh yeah i i said wow i'm in a lot of trouble here when i when i seen the magnitude at the time i said oh boy i'm in a lot of trouble here. When I seen the magnitude at the time, I said, oh, boy, I'm in a lot of trouble here. Oh, well, I guess this is what I've been waiting for. Eventually, I knew something like this would happen.

You know, I'm just going to deal with it. That's it. And how did the, you did end up pleading down, though, right? So we waited. We let everything, you know know the longer lawyers like that when they know that the deck is stacked against you so hard um they like to put it on the back burner and you become insignificant at some point because so many other cases are coming forth yeah so you kind of you kind of fizzle out in a little. So the head of the organized crime unit, his name was Jonathan Shields.

And he said no deal for Red Shea. The only deal he gets is if he fucking rats. So I'm still looking at 20 to life. holy behold my attorney goes over his head to the head um attorney general in massachusetts in boston his name is papalado at the time he was acting he was acting because the head guy was a guy named wayne budd and he went to washington so he took his spot because he was second in charge well the administration that was coming in they told him you're not going to be in charge we're putting our own guy there because you know it's all political political hack shit you you know? So he's a, what's the term?

Lame duck. He's a lame duck. So he says, ah, fuck it. I'm going to go into private practice then. Right? So my attorney knew that. It happened to fucking work out beautiful for me, let me tell you. I was so fucking, God was looking out for me.

Thank you, God, you know? So he went over to Jonathan Shields' head of the Organized Crime Unit. And in my book, in the back of my book, I have a picture of me when I was seven years old sitting in the ring on a stool. And I was boxing with green shots on, no headgear. And the trainer's giving me, you know, the corner man's giving me advice,

and I'm just sitting there like this little kid on a stool like that. And when you look at that picture, you're like, wow, what a cute little kid, you know, sitting in a stool boxing. What happened? You know, he took that picture when he walked into the meeting he told me this i wasn't in the meeting i would have loved to been a fly on the wall that day he took the picture and he threw it on the table adam and he said there's the kid you want to give 20 to life for just because he won't rat because he won't fucking say a word. And he will never say a word.

He'll never rat. And you want to ruin this young man here. That's him. That's him. You want to ruin his life for the rest of his life. Because he won't rat. He said, listen, I think I can beat these charges to a certain amount. I think I can beat these charges to a certain amount. I think I can.

So he said to him, I think I can get it at least 12 years. You have him do 12 years in the can, you got your conviction, he gets more than anybody else, and you got a feather in your hat, and I'll see you on the other side when you become a private attorney. Guy says yes. Guy says, make it happen. I'll make it happen.

I'll make a phone call. He called down and told him to make the deal with the lawyer. Whoa. That's still 12 years, though. I mean, that's not two years. I mean, it's 12 years, though. I mean, that's not two years. It's over a decade still. But, I mean, don't get me wrong. You know, it's nothing to sneeze at.

Yeah. But do I think he would have been able to get it down to a certain amount? I don't know. I mean, all I know is I was thankful that it happened. And, yeah, I mean, very thankful. I mean, when I heard the 12 years is that yeah absolutely i jumped on that yeah absolutely i didn't argue with the lawyer i didn't argue with her at all 12 years i guess but i'm gonna tell you this if he told me we're going to trial

i would say yeah yeah sure i know i would i would have i would have been gone i would have taken off are you shitting me oh you oh you would have jumped bail oh I would have taken off. Are you shitting me? Oh, you would have jumped bail. Oh, I would have fucking cut that bracelet off in fucking two seconds. Are you kidding me? Any ideas where you would have gone? No, but the DEA said we were hoping that you took off and went to Ireland because we wanted a free trip to Ireland. So, yeah. Who wants a free trip to Ireland?

Yeah. I'll take a free trip to Ireland. I'm fucking with you, Red. I know. I was hoping you were going to get met. No. I heard Ireland's actually beautiful. I've never been.

It is beautiful. You've been there a bunch or? No. Never? I don't know. We got to get you there. Get to the roots. Listen, I have friends from there.

I got relatives from there, of course. But yeah, I've never gone. Interesting. Yeah. So youosante. Yeah. So you go in, you do 12. Now, Whitey Bulger, for people that don't know the story, if you haven't seen Black Mass or seen the millions of documentaries and all the news, he was outed officially as a rat,

along with Steve Flemming and the crew, and went on the run, I believe, in like 1995, 1996, and wasn't caught, as it would turn out, until 2011 out in California. So he was successfully, as an FBI most wanted, ironically, on the run for 15, 16 years. Right. And you were in prison finding out you were what, like halfway into your sentence almost when you found out? When I get out of prison, he was still on the run.

Right. But I'm saying when you found out he was a rat. When I found out, I had another five years to go in my sentence. How'd you find out? One of the guys in prison told me, he said, hey, I just come over to radio that Whitey and Stevie were rats. And I was in New Jersey in this state at the time. Fort Dix? Yeah.

And I was, what? So I made a phone call home. And I got the truth. I called home immediately. And I got the truth. And I'll be very honest with you. And I felt that like somebody reached through the phone, reached in and just pull my, down my throat and pull my heart out because of the, the, the, the, um, the loyalty that I gave and the honorability that I gave to that man.

Yeah, my legs buckled a little bit, believe it or not. Did you not believe it at first? Were you like still in the way? No, not when I called home. You believed it? Oh, yeah. That's when it hit me. And then I was just completely a wreck and rage. And my attorney reached out to me, Tony Cardinale.

He said, listen, I know what the answer is going to be. I already know what the answer is going to be, but I have to by law. If you cooperate against Whitey now with the DEA, you'll be able to come home now. You got five years left. Yeah. I didn't care if I had five years

or 20 years. I didn't care if I had five years Or twenty years I didn't care I walked inside Into prison as a man I was walking out A man So even in that moment When the guys who had put you on

And everything were all rats And no one would have blamed you I mean who the hell cares you were still no they would have blamed me there were other guys on a street that was solid that was still there that would you know involved in life the life if you will okay yeah but there was no thought there was no like momentary like even just well maybe it was straight up now fuck this i will never do that yeah never like i said to that guy in that day in danbury connecticut when it was all men uh prison i said to him just because even if Whitey's a rat, we don't rat. I said to him, which I don't believe, which I was wrong.

But I protected him all the way. As a matter of fact, one case that they had that they tried to get against Whitey and Stevie was with bookmakers and some guy who got shooken down or something. And I was inside my cell. And I was monitoring all this from where I was. And I called my, one of my attorneys, Fran Hurley, and he helped me write Rap Bastards, by the way. And I said, Fran, do me a favor. I need you to come down and see me. Fran says, yep, I'll be down. Tony Continelli was working the case,

but he didn't represent Stevie Flemmy. He represented someone else. And I said, I need you to come here now. He came down, drove all the way down. I talked to him. I said, this snitch here that's going against him, follow this lead. Follow it. And mind you,

we didn't know there were snitches at that time. It's come out later. I said, follow this lead. So he did. The guy had a case against him for fraud. And he went to trial and he got on the stand and he perjured himself on the stand. And they said, you perjured yourself already. That's at least five years there. And the conviction that you're going to get, you're going to do a lot of time. You want yourself to get out? Do what we say, and you'll get out. Oh, yeah. He did.

He did. So he went against Whitey and Stevie, saying they shook him down and all this shit, and everything else extorted. But yet I got the information The reason why he's doing that is because he Put himself in a pickle And he made this story up with the government To get himself out

I was doing that for my fucking jail cell Still protecting them As the true soldier that I was is that loyal of course it is it's just amazing that like you would still there's still a code from where you grew up that is so deeply ingrained in you that even when other people like the biggest people break it just so that you can look yourself in the mirror at night if nothing else besides that you won't do it and i mean it's hard not to have some level of respect for that now i've had i'm friends with a guy you wouldn't like at all the one rat i've

had on my podcast before my friend matt cox who was not in any life. He was just a regular fraudster. He's got his own show too. Yeah. I'm not too fond of him either. I could imagine. I actually was. Isn't he in Florida? He's in Florida, yeah.

Somebody said, hey, you want to go on the Max Cox show? I swear to God. So hold on. The guy reached out to him and said, hey, you want Red Shea on your show? So the guy goes, I said, nothing, nothing, you want Red Shea on your show? So the guy goes, so I said, nothing, nothing. I said, I got to go to Florida.

I'm paying to go down to fucking Florida. At least he could pay for my plane flight to get down to see him or something. I don't know. I know that doesn't, they don't do that. I know that. I know that. But I'm new at this,

so I don't know. Yeah. So, I mean, he's the one making the money. I'm not making no money. Right? So, I mean, seriously. So now I have, I didn't know he was a rat. Right?

Didn't know it. Right? So, the guy goes, ah, fuck that. I can have a drug dealer off the street, a junkie off the street. I don't have to pay him. Right? That is the most mad guy. Right?

I'm sure you heard that before. And that cost me nothing. Right? So, I goes, ah. I was like, ah, fuck this guy. Right? I don't you heard that before. And that cost me nothing. Right? So I goes off. I was like, fuck this guy, right? I don't care about him anyway. Holy behold, I find out afterwards, he's a snitch. Oh, yeah.

He even ratted on a guy in prison. He got information and ratted on him in prison that he didn't even know the guy. That's right. He didn't even know the guy. He just gave him up. You got to hear him talk about it. Yeah, he's proud of it. Oh, yeah. I'm proud of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, man. I know he's a little guy, too. He better... Oh, man. Let me tell you. I didn't want to see that guy. I know somebody who was on his show, and they regret because they didn't know. Because they didn't know. Because they didn't know. There's a couple people,

yeah. Yeah, and he regrets it today. Yeah. Oh, man, does he regret it. Because this guy is a stand-up guy. Yeah. And he went on his fucking show. I think I know who you're talking about. But, yeah, Matt's story, it's a little different.

But he is right out with it. He's stone cold about it. He's stone cold. Yeah. He's like, when he talks about first, before he went into prison, like, were you going to rat? He's like, no. Why not? He's like, because I've seen the Godfather, bro.

I'm a gangster. And then he's like, then you get into prison. You're not a gangster. This is all stupid. He has a totally different viewpoint on it. Because again, there was no, he didn't come i'm not defending her i'm just saying analyzing her he didn't come from like what you did there was no group or anything he was just some solo regular con guy and literally a con man and when he got in there he's like i'm gonna protect myself it's just really

funny how protect yourself how the fuck was he protecting himself? He was ratting on guys inside prison that were telling him his story. I know. Their story. I know. Well, that's one thing. Why do you always tell me? He said, listen, be aware.

And he said this to me prior to going to prison. They might stick a rat in your cell. If they do, you tell them. If they stick someone in there you don't know, it's probably a fed or a rat. He said, so whatever you do, tell them you want to be alone. Or tell the person to beat it. And if they don't, then say there's going to be a problem here.

And if they come to you, just say, then stick me in the hole if you have to. Because I ain't having anybody with me. That happened to me. It did happen to me. You had a guy get in your cell that was deafening. Oh, yeah. I fucking told him. I told him. I told him, you better go to them and tell them that you need to leave

because you ain't staying here anymore with me, brother. I'm going to tell you that right now. It ain't going to be pretty. You're not going to like it. He left, but nothing ever happened to me. They didn't stick me in a hole they left me alone i mean that wasn't oh yeah i need to see you do matt's podcast i just i i want to be there for it i'll just be i'll be in the other room you can do whatever you want but i need to see that

it'd be the funniest fucking thing of all time that ain't gonna happen brother that's not ever gonna happen trust me yeah you hit matt for being short too i love that yeah he's like five three yeah i know he's one of my favorite little guys but yeah probably probably not your cup of tea so anyway back to your story though you find out what he's a what he's a snitch i could have ratted i could have ratted and you didn't you know i hear the thing oh that's really stupid he didn't rat and the guy will could have ratted and you didn't. I hear the thing. Oh, that's really stupid. He didn't rat and the guy set him up and da, da, da, da, da. No, I didn't.

Like we said, you had the code. No, I didn't. Yeah. I didn't. No. Oh, so two wrongs make a right? Just accept your responsibility. Right.

And take it on the chin and do your fucking time and pay your debt to society. Yeah. And don't rat on anybody. Well, the guy you worked for didn't want to do that, but he did end up, the chicken came home to roost eventually. He did. And the funny thing about it is when he was still on the run and I was out of prison at that time. Yeah, you were out for what, like nine years before he got caught?

Yeah. Something like that? Did you want to find him? Oh, yeah shit me were you out there looking oh yeah i already had it planned and everything oh yeah oh yeah oh absolutely you can guarantee that but so this is the story i i used to have this dream and i dream was meeting him in New York, bumping into him in the streets of New York. Dreams are dreams, right? I mean, we never know like what makes sense in a dream sometimes.

And I, I see him and I pull him into a doorway and I ask him, I say to him, why? Why did you give me, why did you rat? Why? How could you be a rat all those years? I said, I was loyal to you. He said to me, I was just trying to protect you. Yeah, that was in the dream.

So I couldn't make any sense of that. And I barreled through and I grabbed him by his chin and the back of his head and I snapped his neck. Literally. And killed him right there and left him there. So those are the dreams that I had lived with and had quite often. They've subsided over time. That's good. Thank God.

Yeah. You can imagine the anger, though. Yeah, I mean, you know, yeah, exactly. He got caught out in Santa Monica. What was his tie to Santa? He didn't have a tie to Santa Monica, did he? I'm going to tell you. Okay.

So where he came from in the projects, and I came from, O'Connell projects here and the O'connelly projects here and the old harbor projects here mary mary mary ellen mccormick but they called them the old harbor projects and right next door to that was a church and it's still there today and it's called Santa Monica's. Come on. Nope. And that's how he chose Santa Monica. So I have a friend who lives four blocks from where they caught Whitey. In California. In Santa Monica. Hold on.

No. I was out there. No. Visiting him. His name is Ken Koken. He was a producer on the Usual Suspects movie, Academy Award back in the day, and a producer on the Way of the Gun with Ryan Phillippe. So I went out, and I was out there hanging with Ken,

and we used to take walks from where he lived down to that area, the plaza down there, to get coffee at that Starbucks that Whitey Bulger used to go to. She would pass his place and the Starbucks? Could you imagine if I...

Now, I would have definitely recognized him even as an older man. I'd be talking to you from prison right now. No, you wouldn't have. Oh, no, you wouldn't have. Have you found the body? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. There would have been a citizen's arrest.

And during that citizen's arrest, there was a confrontation and I had to defend myself. I mean. You can't make that shit up. You can't make that shit up. That's what a small world it's been. I wonder if he saw you. Well, I was out there with my book and they had a, they had a, like a festival. Yeah.

To do for movies and stuff. Santa Monica Festival that they show. I don't know if they do it every year now or whatever. But I happened to be out there at that time. When he got caught? No. When the book was coming out.

When my book was out. And he was living there. And he was living there. Supposedly he went over there during that time to scope things out while he was living there and he was living there supposedly he went over there during that time to scope things out while i was there yep and then when they caught him in santa monica with eight hundred and something thousand dollars in the walls and plenty of guns um he had a library. No. Yes.

The book was in there? Rap Bastards was in. Oh, my God. Wow. Oh, my God. Yep. What if he was just, like, reading the book at the Starbucks with his hat on one time when you were in there getting a fucking caramel macchiato you imagine and you don't know it that that happened obviously oh it didn't know he was there yeah oh no that's very real that could have been it could have but i i would have noticed him

starbucks isn't that big i would have noticed him you can guarantee that that's unbelievable so when when he got caught i never forget those eyes those eyes were pretty piercing yeah he did have fucking piercing yeah i didn't see him in person but even in the pictures they look piercing you were telling me before i think it was before camera that when you were consulting on black mass for Johnny Depp, can you just tell this story, like what happened when you went to go see him? So Johnny Depp, I get a call, Johnny Depp and the crew, actors would like to meet up and say hello to me and just talk to me. Just regular Josie. I wasn't even advising them, nothing like that.

Just hang out. I say, yeah, sure, I'll get down. You know, Joel Edgerton, great guy, great guy, good friend today. He's doing really well. And so I said, yeah, I'll get down, meet up with them. So we did. I did. And hung out with Johnny and them and everything.

I went out to dinner with them and stuff like that at another time. And I get pictures of me and Johnny with Johnny's hand over my shoulder. He's a solid guy, believe it or not. He's had his troubles in life, like us all. I believe that. But he's a solid guy, Johnny Depp. One of the things I remember, he was a real gentleman and a kind man with me, of course. But everybody, with everybody that I noticed around him. And one of the things I did notice strongly about Johnny was that he made sure when we were out,

that the people who were waiting on us, staff and like that, he made sure through his assistants to make sure that those people were paid handsomely, tipped well, very well. He said, oh, did you give them this? Did you give them that? He double checked. He said, yes, I did, Johnny. I found that to be so impressive.

Yeah. You know, really that solid guy. He's one of those guys that like you know none of them i mean none of us really know him but you do hear a lot of those stories through the grapevine pat was even telling me he stops in town a lot to augustino's here i didn't even know that but you know there's some celebrities you hear some awful stories about he's one of the ones that it's usually been good which is why why the whole Amber Heard thing was like surprising when it first came up, you know?

Well, he had contacted me after the Amber Heard incident and all that, after he got back on his feet, if you will. Oh, he did? Yeah. And it was like just out of the spare moment, you know? And I get a call. I don't know who the number is. It ain't his number, right?

Because I have his phone number, but he changed it after that because he was getting so much, you know, shit with the trial. And no pun intended. Hello. Hello. Yeah, exactly. And I don't want to go any further than that.

So that said, he calls. Would you let Amber heard shit on you? No, never. I didn't think so. Yeah, not. My wife would kill me if that ever happened. I think she would. Yeah, no, I'd be divorced tomorrow.

Yeah. Yeah, but I'd be getting divorced with a knife into my back or something. Who knows? Maybe in the front for, you know. No, my wife would never put up with anything like that. But that's besides the point. It's funny to have fun. But that said, he called me out of the clear blue.

We had a number. Who's this? No, it was a text. And I was like, who's this? And I called, who's this? Oh, Mr. Shea, Mr was a text. And I was like, who's this? And I called, who's this? Oh, Mr. Shea. Mr. Shea. Yeah, Johnny is in town.

And he's doing the band thing, the guitar thing. With Beck, the guitarist. I know Johnny has a band. I don't know. Yeah. Jeff Beck. Oh, he is? Jeff Beck. He played with Eric Clapton, too. He played with don't know. Yeah. Jeff Beck. Oh, he is? Jeff Beck.

He played with Eric Clapton? Yeah, he played. He toured with Eric Clapton and I believe Jeff Beck, yeah. No shit. Yeah, that's correct. So they were doing it in Boston. And I says, oh, man. He said, he would like you to come if you want as his guest and come backstage and everything. You know, because he's in Boston.

I said, man, it's the last minute. I already got reservations for something else, you know, because he's in Boston. I said, man, it's the last minute. I got to go. I already got reservations for something else, you know. And my wife was like, oh, man, can we break that so we can go? And Laurie was like, honey, I can't do that, you know. I'd love to go. So I said, is he going to be around afterwards or whatever or going to be around for a couple of days? He said, no, he's flying back out tonight.

I said, well, give him my regards and tell him uh is this his number i can get back a new number and he goes yeah so that's cool but what was the you when you were when he was set with him he invited me on set i met him at his hotel and uh he's staying at the mandarin in boston for black mass we're talking about where he played whitey bulger just for everyone out there and um so I met him at the hotel. We went to the set. And he says, I got to get made up, Red. And do you want to come in the trailer and hang out?

I said, absolutely. I'm sitting there in the trailer with, you know, bullshitting. And there was a bust of Whitey. But it was Whitey when he was an old, old man, you know, kind of no hair or anything, just a bust and all that. And his face is there, you know. And all of a sudden, Johnny's getting made up, and he starts transforming into the old Whitey, you know, not old.

The one you knew. The one I knew. And I'm looking, I'm going, I started, something just overcame me, right? I started getting butterflies in my stomach. I started getting sick. I was like, I was ready. I was like trying to hold myself back. I wanted to attack Johnny Depp.

I swear to God. I ain't, I'm not kidding you Because he was looking like Whitey Bulger So much So good I said I got to step outside So I went outside the trailer to get air To get a breather And get a hold of myself

I was ready to start Smashing Johnny I'll be honest with you So I go back in And I told Johnny and he apologized up and down oh yeah I'm so sorry Red I didn't realize I didn't you know it's been so long for you not a problem pal not a problem just don't look at me the wrong way and um and uh yeah so that's what happened on the set with Johnny Depp what What did you, when, when he did get caught in Santa Monica, besides having a flashback to like, holy shit, I was right there where he got caught, but you know, he gets brought

back, he gets thrown in jail, gets put on this trial. That was a foregone conclusion. You know, what's, what's going through your mind? Was that like, was that justice for you? Or is it more just like a reminder of the past that you didn't want in your face? What did it feel like? So first of all, they had the people against him that were going to testify and witness-wise.

Billy Shade, the head of the organization. he testified against whitey how do you feel about that um but my name was on the witness list to bring me in to testify in trial against whitey bulger now if i didn't testify on the stand I'd be held in contempt and put back in jail, correct? That's how it works. I think so. Yes. So I knew that. I heard rumors of it.

And I was doing interviews on CNN about Whitey, you know. And in those interviews, I was saying, yeah, they could call me, but I played poker with them. I said, they can call me. I said, but I'll never testify. They can call me all they want. I'll never testify. But that was the hook but but if i decided to do that i don't think it would be good for the prosecution or the defense either side if i decided to why what was your

logic i could throw i could throw i could throw a wrench in the wheels. Who knows? I was just playing poker. I was hoping they didn't fucking call me, to be honest with you. Because if they did, I was going back to the can. I wasn't ratting against a fucking Martian. Okay? I wasn't ratting against a Martian. You got that right. I really do 100% believe you.

I'm serious. So I don't know if I did a good job with that or not, but my name is still there and I got wind of it. I got a call. Your name's there. They're going to probably call you. I called my attorney, Tony Continelli, immediately, told him. He called the head guy and said the same thing i just said to you and and um you got enough guys who were

gonna convict this this guy's a goner you don't need him there kevin weeks had already turned years before oh yeah he was tested they even had some words in court that was actually kind of funny i mean fuck you fuck you whatever i mean It's a little bit funny. Come on. Yeah, whatever. You don't have any time for rats. I don't. Whatever. I mean, he was an old man. I mean, I would have just, I wouldn't have said a word to him.

I just would have walked up and smashed him. I mean, you know what I mean? I mean, seriously, I would have. Yeah. And somebody asked me, did you ever, did you, I mean, you know what I mean? I mean, seriously, I would have. Yeah. And somebody asked me, did you want to get out of the courthouse and see him or whatever in the courtroom? I said, what are you, nuts? I said, you think I could control my temper in there looking at that rat?

I said, and stuff. I said, well, I'd be putting myself in a bad position if I did that. Yeah. You know, think about it. Yeah, probably for the best. That would be, like, stupid. I would have liked to have seen him elsewhere alone or something like that. Yeah, of course.

But, no, I mean, no. He got what he deserved, though. He got thrown away. Old man lived out his life with no dignity. And then he even got, what was it, like a Genovese guy or something? Got him in prison. Is that what it was? One of the five family guys?

Oh, he wasn't. He was a Greek. That's exactly right. But he was a hit man for. And Tony Continelli actually represented him at one time on another case case believe it or not um but he couldn't represent him on that particularly this other case that he had because he was tony was friends with the guy that he uh supposedly i don't know right or whatever right so it was a conflict of interest but that said yeah that that that greek guy uh took him out and uh touche to him i mean you know he the guy's doing life he ain't getting out he wanted to kill a legendary rat and he did no

matter how old he was he admitted to it he went in court and admitted to it so he took the blow he took the he took the brunt of it did Did you feel anything when he died? Was that like a chapter closing for you or irrelevant? I was disappointed. Yeah. I was definitely disappointed. That he died? That I didn't do it. I'm laughing.

He's got the straightest face ever. It's personal. It's very personal. I can't really imagine being in your shoes. I don't like rats. I mean, who really likes a rat? I mean, think about it. Seriously.

I want to ask that question. Who likes a rat? Even a lot of enforcement people, they don't like rats. Because if they're ratting and doing this, they know that they do it to them too. Yeah. I don't think people

like them. Who likes a rat? Yeah. No, seriously. I mean that. I seriously mean that. And if you do hang with a rat or you like a rat, then you know what? That means you must be in the same category and same boat as them. I'm sorry.

That's how I feel. I still need to see that podcast with Matt Cox. But let me say this. You've got to realize after these people are done testifying and doing everything for the government and years go by, they're like a pack of cigarettes, if you will. Once that pack of cigarettes is finished, or even like a beer can, they crumble it up and they throw it away.

You mean nothing to them after that. The only thing you are is a stinking rat to them. They crumble you up and throw you away. And that's what they have to live with for the rest of their lives. Any of them. Well, that's it. They got to live with what it is. When I look in the mirror, and I can walk down any street in America,

any street, and hold my head up proud and high. But when those rats walk down the street, they're wondering, is that guy, is he looking at me the wrong way like I'm a rat? Maybe some of them have faced that walking down the street already. I'm sure

they have. I've heard things. Hey, what's up, rat? Yeah. Imagine living like that for the rest of your life Wouldn't want to I'd rather do my time in the can And be the man I am Fuck it

Seriously You sell your soul Well, Red You have, as we've said today You lived lived it you say these things but you backed it up with everything you did and i think people have to have respect for that and and also i really appreciate you going through your whole story and the ins and outs and some vivid detail as well and you've lived a hell of a life it It's, it's really cool to see you, you know, living a good life now over the past couple of decades, putting that all behind you.

And that's, that's awesome. Well, thank you. It's been an honor and I'm, I'm so happy that I come on and, uh, and, and, um, and, uh, hopefully we can do this again sometime down the road. Uh, maybe we could collaborate sometime. Um, I'm coming out on my podcast and I'm doing the content now for that and the material now for that. And that will be out coming up soon. And, you know, I don't have the website up yet because I have to put the content on there before I put the website up on YouTube and Patreon and Spotify. It'll be all on the same platforms. When you do that, I think I'm probably going to put this one's evergreen. So I'm probably gonna put this out in about a month. When you do that, if it's not up yet, when it goes up, just let me know and we'll put

the link. We'll have it up by then. All right, good. Yeah, we'll have it up by then. Red, I really appreciate this, man. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. All right.

Thank you very, very much. Of course. Let's do this again. I love it. Everybody else, you know what it is. Give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace. Thank you guys for watching the episode. If you haven't already, please hit that subscribe button and smash that like button on the video. They're both a huge, huge help. And if you would like to follow me on Instagram and X, those links are in my description below.