Julian Dorey Podcast - #302 - Wolf of Wall Street’s Ex-Wife UNLOADS on What Really Happened | Nadine Macaluso

Episode Date: May 16, 2025

SPONSORS HERE: 1) Download PRIZEPICKS & use Code "JULIAN" to get $50 w/ your first $5 play: https://shorturl.at/2XCLm 2) American Financing: Go to https://www.AmericanFinancing.net/Dorey or call 888-991-9788 today! PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/JulianDorey (***TIMESTAMPS in Description Below) ~ Nadine Macaluso, formerly Belfort, is a British-born American psychotherapist, author, internet personality, and former model. She was the second wife of the stockbroker and financial criminal Jordan Belfort, to whom she was married from 1991 to 2005. NADINE'S LINKS: BUY HER BOOK: https://drnae.com/giveaway-book/ YouTubet: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheRealDrNadine INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/therealdrnadine/?hl=en FOLLOW JULIAN DOREY INSTAGRAM (Podcast): https://www.instagram.com/juliandoreypodcast/ INSTAGRAM (Personal): https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey/ X: https://twitter.com/julianddorey JULIAN YT CHANNELS - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Clips YT: https://www.youtube.com/@juliandoreyclips - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Daily YT: https://www.youtube.com/@JulianDoreyDaily - SUBSCRIBE to Best of JDP: https://www.youtube.com/@bestofJDP ****TIMESTAMPS**** 00:00 - Wolf of Wall Street (Margot Robbie), Reaction to Movie, Working w/ Margot Robbie 06:40 - Nadine on Jordan’s Book, Growing Up in Brooklyn, British Aristocracy Connection (Duchess) 13:23 - 1st Time Meeting Jordan Belfort, Modeling Career Taking Off & Wild Ride Stories 22:09 - Trauma Bonding Explained, Manipulation & Power Breakdown of Jordan, 26:09 - Nadine’s Mother & Male Void in Life, Jordan’s High Expectations 32:43 - Night Before Wedding Story 39:20 - Living in Long Island (Start Educating Herself), Seeing Therapist & Lifestyle 45:52 - Jordan Getting in Trouble with SEC, Dealing w/ Addictions, Story of Jordan being Stoned at Family Dinners 50:31 - Jordan Needs Help (Drug Addict), Final Straw Before Divorce (Almost Physically Harmed), Telling FBI Agent He’s a D**K 01:04:36 - $10 Million Bail for Jordan, Mental Health Clinic & Breaking Through Trauma, Divorce Proceeding 01:12:33 - Meeting Current Husband, 2nd Husband Listened to Her, Moving to California 01:25:42 - Getting PHD & Doctorate, Sales Ability, Becoming Movie 01:30:01 - Starting Social Media & Sharing Story, Watching Wolf of Wall Street with Jordan Day of Release, 01:36:13 - Accuracies w/ Film vs Reality, Sopranos Writer 01:41:25 - Relationships & Psychoanalysis of Jordan Belfort Today 01:45:09 - Beating Cancer, Nature vs Nurture 01:51:21 - Psychological Traits: Satanism, Dark Tetrad, Machiavelli, Kids Today are Scewed 02:07:45 - True Love with Jordan Belfort CREDITS: - Host, Editor & Producer: Julian Dorey - In-Studio Producer: Alessi Allaman - https://www.youtube.com/@UCyLKzv5fKxGmVQg3cMJJzyQ Julian Dorey Podcast Episode 302 - Nadine Macaluso Music by Artlist.io Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What was it like being married to him at the beginning? He's go big or go home. Now it's wrapped in these grandiose, beautiful gestures of luxury. You fall in love with Romeo, but then the mask falls, and then a very different person emerges. He would be stoned at family dinners. So my mother's there, his parents are there, everybody's seen this. You know, he sits down and he's like, this is delicious.

I go into his office and I find the bag of Quaaludes and I'm like, that's it. Oh no. While he's at the table. I say to him, if you don't go to rehab, I'm leaving. That's when our whole life got violent. And he starts screaming at me obscenities that I won't even say. I'm not f***ing leaving. Yeah, I'm not f***ing leaving.

It's a good scene. It's a great scene. Now he's high on c*** and I'm like, are you f***ing kidding me? And I chase him up the stairs and he kicks me in my solar plexus down the stairs while he's holding my daughter. He's going to kill me, I think. This is not the Jordan that I met and married. And I'm furious. That's when he went crazy. Dr. Ney, thanks for coming in

Yeah, I'm happy to be here It was quite a trek I had to take a train Where did you take a train from? From Connecticut to the city Got my hair done At my favorite salon, John Barrett Nice

Had lunch at Bergdorf Goodman And then took, I had to go to my old stomping ground. I was going to say, you've had a day then. I didn't know that. And then I came here to New Jersey in an Uber. This is like the biggest letdown of the day. No. What are you doing up in Connecticut? Do you live there now?

Yeah. So I'm living there now half the year to be close to my daughter and her children and more children on the way and so yeah i'm a gg i'm a gg now that's awesome you were telling me off cam you have two kids and three step kids yeah big family yeah i have a big family yeah i have a son and a daughter from my ex chandler and carter uh my daughter's a therapist and right on right on point yeah right on point. And my son, he actually works with my ex and my three beautiful stepdaughters. Yeah. I mean, obviously the 500 pound elephant in the room is that you had the most iconic character of the 21st century in a movie play you. But I was just telling you before camera,

obviously it's a movie. So there's things that are i guess like hollywood coming into it and whatever so we could separate some fact from fiction today but like what is that like going from you know at that point long past your first marriage in your second marriage i believe you had already become a therapist and gotten your phd at the time yeah and then suddenly it's like like you are this character online that you that on the internet and obviously in the theaters played by Margot Robbie pretty brilliantly, I might add. Yes. She did a good job. It's strange. It was very strange because my time with him was traumatic. And I always say it was like a Greek tragedy and I had moved to Los Angeles

after I left him so I was like okay that's all behind me I'm gonna start over but um that didn't happen you know uh so I did get you know Margot did play my character and it was fine honestly because she did a good job. The movie didn't trash me. No, it didn't. Which it could have. So I was very nervous about that because Martin Scorsese does not always portray women the best. If you think about Sharon Stone in Casino, right? And Karen in Goodfellas. So, but I had done a lot of therapy on myself. And, you know, before it, of course, I was freaking out on certain days. And then one day I said, you know what?

You have to surrender. This is bigger than you. And I did. And I let it go. And then it turned out OK. And then it turned out OK. Yeah, it does. Because also, you have your kids, too.

How were your kids at the time of the movie coming out? They were really impressionable. And that was really my main concern was well i have two concerns like who the hell's gonna want to come to me for therapy once they find out that um the judge is and then the other one was my children of course but they really well adjusted and i had already we jordan and i were very open with them about everything. And we had all processed a lot. So they weren't shocked. They weren't like, oh, this is my dad.

They're like, yeah, that's my dad. So that was helpful. Yeah. I mean, I'm just thinking about it because this was kind of a mistake at the time. Didn't really think this one through, but I saw the movie in theaters with my mom. Oh, no. So I think we got to about the first scene and I already felt the... I felt the side eye.

I was like, oh, boy. So, I was thinking about, like, you having to see that. But I guess, like, you know, also there's drugs that were in the middle of this. Like, he had a problem with that. So, that leads you to do a lot of crazy things, maybe exacerbates some of your not as good qualities as well. Yes.

So, there's like some understanding there from the kids then. Yeah. And, you know, Jordan and I have always made a decision to really be there for our children together. And so we took our son to see it. We had a private screening. I had two private screenings at Paramount, one with my current husband, John, and then

Jordan and I took our son. And so in one of those scenes, probably where your mom gave you the side eye. Which one? I said to him, I think I took my son's head and put it down. And he goes, Mom, if it's not you, I can look. Yeah, there's a few in there I can think of. Yeah. So you saw it with Jordan and your son at the same time?

Yes. So you got your ex in there, your kid, and you're watching this movie about your life done by Martin Scorsese and Leonardo DiCaprio. Yes. That's gotta be pretty surreal. It was very, that's exactly the word I used when I first sat down with my husband. I was like, okay, let's buckle in. Now you also, I don't know if I remember this correctly, but didn't you like work with Margot Robbie before she did the role? Yeah, I met with her. They called me up and said, hi, this is Martin Scorsese's office. And I said, hi. Says about time you fucking call me.

You're going to make a movie about my life and you haven't called me? And I said, I'm not going to sue you because I wouldn't let them use my name. Because I was like, I make no money. I have no creative input. It's not my narrative. That's why they changed it to Naomi. That's why they changed it. I mean, in retrospect, it didn't matter,

but that was like my one thing to stand on. So I think they were worried about that. And I said, I'm not going to sue you. I'm just really concerned about my children. And so she was very nice. I forgot what her name was, Emily, maybe. And she said, will you meet Margo? She wants to get your accent.

And I was like, this accent? Okay. And so they would have flown her to L.A., but I was going to New York to take my daughter to college. So you want to talk about a surreal day, you drop your daughter off at college, and then you go meet this woman who's going to play you.

She had to be like 20 at the time. She was 22. She was my exact age when I met him. Oh, wow. Yeah. And she's Australian too and she's got to get this like Brooklyn drawl down.

Yeah. And she was so sweet and lovely. That's good. That was the beginning of her career, you know, so she was very humble. Now, had you seen the script or anything yet did you know what they were no listen he had written the book yeah right the wolf of wall street so what did you think of that i mean i had a lot of

emotions when i first when he when he first sent it to me i called him up and i was like what like i screamed at him like what the fuck is this this is insane you know and he's like no it's gonna be fine i did it for us and i'm like you didn't do it for me i'm living remarried but okay he hit you with that i did it for us yeah i did it for us i did it for us i was like i don't think I was like, I don't think so. But okay. And then I was like, and a lot of these scenes aren't true. Like I never threw water in your face. And he's like, it's good for the book. It's good for the book.

And so then I threw myself on the bed and cried hysterically. Oh, man. And I had my mad Lucia moment. And my husband came over and he goes, get up. It's just a book. And I was my mad Lucia moment and my husband came over and he goes, get up. It's just a book. And I was like, okay. And so I allow myself to feel those feelings. Yeah, of course. You know, I don't repress my feelings and push them down.

And then I didn't know it was going to be made into a movie. Yeah, I mean, obviously, like, they did it from a comedic lens, too. And that's his style. And that's the way he writes it, yes. But it's still, like, it was your life. Like, I can't really imagine putting myself in your shoes and trying to, like, I don't know, read, like, a comedic way that this is written, but also know that, A, some of it is not how it happened, and B, like, you know, there's people like you and your kids caught in the middle of this. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Yeah, no, it was really – it was challenging. But again, because I've been in therapy so much and I process everything and I'm a very optimistic person in general. Nadine actually means hope. Really? Yeah. So I'm just like built like that. I'm very resilient, I think. Where did that come from?

Like as a kid or just always? Yeah, I think I was born with a very agreeable, organized temperament. And then I was raised by a great mother in Brooklyn. It was so much fun to live in Brooklyn in the 70s. Like kids played on the street, you know. There weren't hipsters running around? No. Like it was just like there was no telephone was just like, there was no telephone,

you know, there was no iPhones. There was a lot of free play. And so I grew up, you know, on the streets of Brooklyn. And I think you develop a certain resilience from that. Yeah. There's no helicopter parenting. No, no. You know, my mother wasn't driving me

with orange packets to softball, right? I walked 20 blocks, slid on the concrete into home base. Builds a toughness into you. Yeah, it just does. And so... Was your dad around too? Yeah, my dad was, he was like a true Disneyland dad, in and out, in and out. Because my parents got divorced when I was six.

But he was around, you know, literally taking us to Disneyland. And then I wouldn't see him for some time. So you didn't have like that close of relationship with him. Is that fair to say? Yeah. My main attachment was to my mother. Right.

But I didn't have a bad relationship with him. Okay. You know, it was, my parents were very, uh, loving, kind people. That's good. Yeah. So I was very blessed. And what was the, cause they worked this into the movie, but you had like an aunt who was from like the British aristocracy or something? Yes.

How did that work? So the crazy thing is that my mother and her sister, God bless book, actually taped $750,000 onto her body and flew to Switzerland, met my Aunt Patricia, and I guess they opened up a bank account. That's incredible. No, it's incredible. She's crazy. Ice in her veins.

Ice in her veins. I mean, I thought she was crazy. That's nothing I would ever do. But, you know, again, you have to remember all this madness is happening around me and I'm 26, 27. Yeah, you're so young. I'm so young. Yeah, and money makes people do crazy things. You don't say.

Yes. I've never heard that before. Yeah, it does. So, yeah, so my Aunt Patricia, I mean, she didn't try to kiss jordan i mean i figured that was you know yeah yeah no license but but that was true yeah that is all true the basketball finals are almost here and the playoff action is heating up on prize picks the best place to cash in on your favorite sports think that tyrese halliburton will have more than nine assists or anthony edwards go for more than 28 points Cook up hot takes with your friends and win real money this basketball playoff season when you and your crew run your game on PrizePix.

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PrizePix, run your game. The part about her. Yeah, with the money and yes, and because she was a British citizen, because I was born in Great Britain, I guess she could do that, whatever that was. But you didn't really spend any time in Great Britain. You went to Brooklyn. No, no. I went to – Hence the accent.

Right. Yes, I know. My life probably would have been very different if I stayed in England. I think so. You probably wouldn't be sitting here right now. That's right. I'm sure. That's right.

But what was the story at the beginning? Because, like, again, people have seen the movie and some people out there have read the book as well. But, you know, how did you first get connected to Jordan? And what, what really, what took him about you? Or did I say that right? What took you about him? to Pix, I went to a party in the Hamptons with my current boyfriend. And I didn't know Jordan. I didn't know about Jordan. I didn't know anything about any of the people there. We were just going because it was like a big, beautiful house on the beach and we were in the Hamptons. And so we went and I walked in as the movie

to Pix. There wasn't a big party like that. And I just noticed all these people were really weird. And I didn't know they were on Quaaludes. That'll do it. I didn't know what a Quaalude was. I just was like, God, this seems different than drunk. The house had an eerie feeling. That's all I can describe. And then as the movie depicts too, one of his ridiculous friends exposed himself to me. Wait, that really happened?

That really happened. I felt so much shame because that's what happens to girls when those things- Of course. Yeah. I was like, we got to get the hell out of here. These people are crazy. I left with my boyfriend. I was only there for about 20 minutes.

You met him quickly. Nothing more. I met him quickly, left, and then he – this isn't in the movie. I don't even know if it's in his book. But then he decided to make a friend of ours, a common friend of ours, $15,000 in the stock market. It's crazy. Airtime International. Yeah.

To get me to go to dinner with them. And so she kept calling me and calling me. And she wasn't a great friend of mine. But I'm not a rude person. And I just was like, why? Ginger's really calling me a lot. So she said, do you want to go to dinner? I said, sure.

And then she said, that guy, Jordan Belfort, is going to come. I said, what's he coming for? Isn't he married? And she goes, what do you care? I said, I don't care. I said, I just think it's strange. You know, you have to remember as a 22 year old girl, I'm like, you're married. Somebody's married. Yeah. There's, I didn't know about cheating and all these things. You never heard of that? I never really. You didn't know the New York guys did that? No. I mean, maybe I cheated on my boyfriend when I was 16 and, you know,

but I thought that's something you do when you're a child really I didn't think it was it was very naive and so we met um was it Mezzaluna on third avenue so you still go to the dinner I go to the dinner thought but you're like I'm gonna go yeah but I still go because I'm open person I'm like what's gonna happen I have no idea it's a set up and he comes sauntering out in his from his white testarossa with his cowboy boots and he sits down and i'm from brooklyn he's from queens and we just really hit it off we just really got along very well now of course he was probably charming the pants off of me yeah you know but again i think it's some casual happenstance yeah he's not trying to take you home no so then he says you know can i drive you home and i said to him i think you need to get your car fixed it's really loud he goes i paid 12 000 for that muffler so you you still were like do you think part of that is just like being young?

Like, yeah, nothing's going to happen here. But in the back of your mind, you're like. Well, then as we're driving home, I'm like, OK, this guy likes me. And then he asked me for my number. And I tell him I'm listed under Ophelia Lopez because that was my roommate at the time. I remember there were no cell phones. And I just hop out of the car. And then the next day, as the movie shows, there was 1,200 square feet of flowers in my little 800-square-foot apartment in Brooklyn.

And I was actually having a birthday party for one of my friends. So all my friends come over. They're like, did you sleep with this guy? Like, what happened? I was like, sleep with him. I didn't even know I was on a date and I didn't kiss him. But he sent you all these flowers. But he sent me all these flowers, yeah.

He's go big or go home. Did you start to feel something for him when he did that? No. Not at all? Uh-uh. So how does it escalate then? Because that would almost feel weird, right? Yeah, I was dating so many fun guys in the city and dating all these rich playboys and having the time of my life.

So he really wasn't on my radar. And what happens? Then he called me a few times, but we didn't really connect again because I went to Chicago to model. I had just done my Miller Lite commercial. I don't know if you saw that. I don't think I have seen it. Can we Google that? Nadine Macaluso my Miller Lite commercial. I don't know if you saw that. I don't think I have seen it. Can we Google that? Yeah, it's true.

Nadine Macaluso, Miller Lite. Yeah, our Nadine Caridi, Miller Lite commercial. So I'd just done my Miller Lite commercial, and it's with the dog. It's like that dog that flips in the air. Okay. Yeah. I know it's on my Instagram. And so I went to Model in Chicago.

Wait, this is it right here? This is it, yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah. Oh, we probably know audio. This feels very 90s. There I am. Oh, my God.

And then you'll see. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a Miller Lite commercial. They get you with the dogs. That's how they do it. And then this is cute, what they do here. Oh, there you are. Yeah. And it's a Miller Lite commercial. They get you with the dogs. And then this is cute, what they do here. Oh, there you are.

Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. So I did that. And so I was living in Chicago, as I mentioned. And then I didn't see him. And then we bumped into each other at an amazing gym in the 90s in the city called the Vertical Club. He was working out?

He was working out. That's almost hard to believe yeah he works out i mean i know he works out now but like he was doing so many quaaludes back then no he always worked out he oh he's he's big work router so we met there and we went on our first date and that was it now wait a second so you were how young did you get involved with modeling um i would say probably 1918. Yeah, around then. So you've been in it for a few years.

Yeah. You're making Miller Lite commercials. Yeah. That's a really tough business to like make it in. Really tough. And you were starting to make it. Yeah, I was starting to make it. Yes.

So did you have like any pause with like starting to date a really successful guy like that who's older than you as well when your career's kind of taken off? But remember, he's not that much older than me. He's only 28. You're 22. Yeah, so he's not that much older than me. So, no, it was a very tough career. It's not for the faint at heart.

It's very tough. You're going up against the most beautiful women in the world. And I was shorter. I'm only 5'7", so that's why I did a lot of commercials. Oh, that's short? Yeah. 5'7 is not good for yeah five seven's not good for model it's not good i mean i know they're usually tall but like yeah so so i that's why i did a lot more commercials and so yeah i mean i was very focused on my career because i had to make it on my own you know my my parent my parents were not

i was financially on my own since I'm 17. Wow. Yeah. And so then we go on a date, and it was great. Is that part of what maybe drew you to him, the fact that he was another guy who had kind of self-made himself? Yes, I loved that he was self-made. Yeah. Yeah, it was very important to me. Because actually my boyfriend at the time was not.

And that bugged me. You know, because his family controlled him. Yeah. It's always, you know, my old career when I worked on Wall Street, I would see, you know, the kids of like really wealthy people and how their lives were. And it wouldn't matter if they were even like really smart, went to great schools or whatever. There was always like the trying to live up to the parents. And then it's hard. And then the parents also feel like, I don't know if the word's like guilt or whatever, but they want the best for their kids,

so they helicopter them. Yeah, and they overindulge them. They overindulge them. Yeah, and it's not good for a child. Yeah, you can't really win that way. That's right. And it takes away their drive. Yes, 100%.

Yeah, so we both really have that drive and ambition that I think we were both very drawn to each other about. And yeah, we just fell in love. He was still married though at the time. He was still married. So how did you deal with that? Well, when I saw him at the vertical club, he's like, I'm separated. I have an apartment in the city. And I'm like, okay.

All right. No more questions. Yes, exactly. I should have probed a lot more. But that's part of my personality too, which I've had to fix for sure. And yeah, we just, it was just so fast and furious. Like a trauma bond is just tons of love bombing, of gifts tons of fifteen thousand dollars in cash you know a bulgari watch would just show up um just really anything that i wanted fancy dinners

two thousand dollar bottles of wine at le cirque and it was fun is some of that like intoxicating though in the sense that you know you're selfmade. You're coming from nothing in a sense. Yeah. And now you've been working really hard and now you also are dating a guy who has a lot and he can give you the finer things in life that you haven't seen yet. Yes. It's kind of addicting, right? That was awesome. Yeah.

Yeah. It was so much fun. Yeah. I'd share it with all my friends. I'm a very generous person. And, you know, he had all those, you know, crazy stockbrokers that worked with him, right? And then I met all their wives, who were actually one of my best friends, still my best friend from back then, 35 years later. Shout out to Lori.

Is one of the wives. Yeah, shout out to Lori. That's cool. Yeah. And so, yeah, it was a lot of fun but but you know it was it was the movie in the scene where his wife gets very mad and that's very sad where she caught you guys yes that was real yeah she said you get the fuck out of the car you stay the fuck in the car i was like for sure and then she went she had gone upstairs and thrown my modeling portfolio in the incinerator, which was devastating to me because that was how I made money.

Yeah. But Jordan paid somebody 100 bucks, and they got it out of the garbage. But, like, did that make you question some things in the sense that this guy had told you he was separating and whatever, and then it's pretty clear that he's not? Of course, that he's not, yes.

Yes, but at that point, love had taken over. I was in it deep. It's powerful. Yeah. But that cocaine on my breast snorting never happened because they show that. Oh, he didn't do that? No, he did not. That was kind of cool.

That did not happen. I mean, you can tell me. We're not on camera right now. Yeah. If it really happened, you can tell me. No, it did not. Okay. It did not.

Maybe another time it happened. I'm not that cool. I'm not that cool. You keep using this term, though, like trauma bonding. Okay. It did not. Maybe another time it happened? I'm not that cool. I'm not that cool. You keep using this term, though, like trauma bonding. Yeah. Can you define what you mean by that? Yeah. So a trauma bond is a toxic, dysfunctional relationship between two emotionally attached

people. Two emotionally attached people. Yeah, because you and I can't be in a trauma bond because I'm not connected to you. Right. Right? Right. Right? So you have to be connected to the person. And the way I write about it is between lovers.

And what happens is that one person wants to have power and control over the other one. That's what at the root of the trauma bonds is the one person wants power and control. Why do you think, like what do you think it was about Jordan that made him crave that? Did you ever get to the bottom of that? What caused that? I think that's really how he's wired. I think that he's really wired to be strong and dominating. Yeah. His, his dad was a wonderful man man who had a tough childhood, and then his dad was a yeller. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

You see it in the movie. Yeah, I know. That was good. You see it in the movie. And so I think sometimes, too, when you grow up with a dominating figure, you can also vow to never be dominated again. Right. Not that Jordan's ever told me that, of course.

This is just my own. That would make sense. Yeah. And the research kind of indicates that. But you're not noticing this at the time. You're not seeing those patterns. Like you said, you're noticing like the love bombing and stuff. Yeah. And you view it as an act of love rather than maybe like buying your affection. Yeah. I never looked at it as manipulation or anything like that. Because you have to remember, I don't know at this point that people are like that. Yeah. I'm just like, oh, this...

And listen, we've been fed all this myth of romantic love with Disney and someday your prince is going to come and ain't no prince coming. Never. I mean, you have to save yourself, really. That's the moral of the story. And you have to remember the time Pretty Woman had just come out. Wall Street had come out, right? So there were all of these movies about this financial excess and these very financially successful, powerful men that would come in and take care of you.

Do you think that like, because sometimes I think about this in the modern day, because there tends to be this almost like war between men and women now where it's like, you know, all men are toxic, all women are crazy, depending on who talks to who. And I always like to bring the pendulum to the wheel. I recognize those things are true sometimes. Like you got some bad guys and some bad women out there for sure in relationships. But like, you know, it almost makes you stop and think, am I doing nice things for other people? Like for a girl I like because I like her and I want to win her affection. Does that make it manipulative versus like, no, I really just want to do this thing. I want to shower her with some nice things because I actually

feel affection for it. Obviously, we see how it went with your relationship. But as someone who works with people now, do you see scenarios where some things like that happen and it's not necessarily manipulation or like a power dynamic? Oh, sure. Yeah. Because it's not necessarily manipulation or like a power dynamic oh sure yeah because it's all about the intention right yes it's all about the intention so um you know i've seen my son do very nice things for his girlfriend he likes he's a caretaker i don't think he's doing it to manipulate her and have power and control over her do you think that any of the obviously like jordan wanted power yes we see that yes but do you think there was also like an intention of actually at the same time of trying to be nice too? Yeah.

I think that's how he shows love. Yeah. I do. I think that's how he shows love. He's very generous. Gift giver. Very, very generous. And so your love language is also gift receiving.

Definitely. Okay. What is mine? Wait. I have acts of service and gifts. That makes sense. Yes. Okay. You like people helping you out i do i do which makes sense coming from a mother uh that was you know i was raised in a home with a single mother yeah right so i had to be very self-reliant and do a lot of things on my own yeah yeah did you see your like was your mom dating other guys when you were growing up

she was she did yeah. Yeah. Anyone memorable for good reasons? Yeah, she had a really great second husband who I adored. His name was Jimmy, but it didn't work out between them. But yeah, no, she did date. She did date because she was young when she had me. She was 19. Yeah. Oh, wow. She was that young. So I asked that because it's like, did you, were the things you kind of, even if it was later on while you were trying to evaluate your own relationship that you picked on from a positive or negative lens from some of the relationships you observed growing up, you know, that your mom was in that you then later related to you. You know, the interesting thing is that I didn't really, I think what the issue was, I didn't really have a strong male figure. Right. So I didn't even really have a good barometer of what was normal and what wasn't normal. And my dad was a gambling addict. So even though I was only with him from zero to six,

and he's the most charming, man himself um you know when you think about it gambling's you know stock market's like legal gambling in a way yeah right i think that's fair yeah you know it's somebody that's obsessed with numbers and money and you know but it takes a different manifestation so but i i didn't grow up in a home where there was ever any yelling so my parents like i said were very loving and kind my brother my parents never said cruel things to me right so when i meet jordan and that starts and i nobody ever dominated me like that right i'm like what's happening but it's also like you just said it you You didn't have – I think you said like you didn't have a strong male figure consistently in your life growing up. So that's like a void.

Correct. And you fill that and you're more statistically likely just looking at this when you see these types of scenarios to fill that with a very alpha male figure, which doesn't have to be a bad thing. But if that alpha male figure is someone who is narcissistic, uses tactics like manipulation, power dynamics completely on their end, then obviously it can be bastardized into the wrong road. That's right. Correct. Correct. When did, so you guys had kids when, in like your mid twenties, something like that? Yes. Yes. I had my daughter daughter i was 25 and my son i was 27 so even right before that when you go to get married obviously you said you were just very in love with him and everything he leaves his wife after that situation i guess you forgave him for

what happened there but were did you ever see any signs where you consciously were like wait a minute like even if even if it was subconscious and you have like in the back of your mind, like a little red flag where you're like, I don't know about that. Did that happen before you got married at all? Oh, for sure. A lot. How so? Well, he, like I said, he was very dominating. So there was, um, he would say to me, if you don't, if you're not going, let me think about how to say it. If you're not going to marry me, I'm not going to date you. If you're not going to have children right away, I'm not going to marry you. Oh, wow.

Oh, yeah. He set expectations. He did. He did. He did. He did. And I was like, I don't want to get married. My parents got divorced.

You didn't want to get married. No. My parents got divorced when I was young, and I wanted to wait until I was 30. I was like, I don't want to get married. My parents got divorced. You didn't want to get married. No, my parents got divorced when I was young and I wanted to wait until I was 30. I was 23. I was like, I'm 23. I'm in the city modeling. We're having so much fun. Why do we have to get married? So we'd have fights about that. Then I acquiesced. Did you fear marriage because of what happened to your parents? I didn't fear it, but I just wasn't, I knew I wasn't ready for it. Right. I just knew I was smart enough to know that. And I've always wanted children.

I love children. And, but I knew I wasn't ready for children. And so, but it was his way or the highway. So you gave in. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Debt doesn't just show up one day.

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So I met him at 22. Oh, it was fast. Six months later, we were engaged. Six months later, we were engaged. Six months later, we were married. That escalated quickly. Yeah. Fast and furious. Yeah.

So you said though, like some of those red flags are coming up in the forms of him setting expectations like that. Yes, yes, yes. But you're, you want, there's something in you that wants to appease him. What do you think that was? Yeah. Well, first of all, I'm a, I score very high in agreeableness, which is a big five personality test trait.

And so, first of all, I think I've been conditioned to say yes as a woman, right? So let's just start with that. Plus, I think it's my temperament. Plus, I'm madly in love. And I don't know about coercive control. I don't know about power trips and domination. And I'm just like, he just loves me. Yeah.

He just loves me so much. What do you mean you're conditioned to say yes? You believed you were conditioned to say yes? I think in society, especially in the era that I was brought up in, it was like women are supposed to be very relational and be good girls, you know, and people please. Listen, here's the thing about people pleasing. It's a great tactic. It works.

It's just unsustainable and you end up self-abandoning. Yeah. It doesn't, you don't, you end up getting undervalued. Yeah. Especially like beyond relationships, like in the workplace and whatever. If you're just agreeable all the time. Yeah. It doesn't work. Yeah. You can't break through. And it's not healthy and it's not healthy. And also it's not authentic. Right. So now I know that, but back then I was clueless and I just was like, oh, he just loves me so much. Okay. So I'm going to get married to him.

Check. Yes. And then he's like, we're going to have kids right away. And then, yep. Yeah. Now, you said you loved kids. Love kids. So even if it wasn't on the timeline you wanted, I would imagine you're pretty excited about that.

Yeah. And the thing is that I'm actually thrilled that I had kids young now because I get to spend more time with my children on the planet. That's cool. So it all worked out. But again, at the time, those were my values. These were things that were really important for me that got taken from me. And I do a video about this on TikTok where I talk about the night before our wedding, we get into a rip-roaring fight because I'm pregnant because I got pregnant before my

wedding. How long pregnant were you? Like four weeks. So I'm pregnant. So he has everything. I'm pregnant. He's getting married. And he's wasted the whole time.

And I'm furious. And I i'm like are you fucking kidding me i'm giving you everything you want and this is how you're behaving yeah and that was the night before our wedding and then i had 250 people coming to the malia hana hotel in anguilla so i was like okay so there wasn't like a pause, like, wait a minute. There should have been. There should have been, but there wasn't. There should have been. There should have been a big pause there.

But also, you know, obviously it shouldn't be wasted the day before your wedding. Yes. I think no questions asked about that. But like devil's advocate at the same time, you know, you're getting married. It's going to be amazing once it's happening but it's also like a very stressful time leading right up to it you got a destination wedding couples disagree on stuff so in like your defense it's like all right i'm from brooklyn he's from long island like you know yeah we're getting some fights once in a while that like i don't know

if that in and of itself would be like the red flag it's more the context of where these fights are always coming from or what's causing them right yes the red flag. It's more the context of where these fights are always coming from or what's causing them, right? Yes, it's more – exactly. It's more where the fights are coming from, where I'm giving in, giving in, giving in. And you have to remember, when I'm talking wasted, it's not like a few martinis.

Right. You know. It's quite lewd. Yeah, so it's sleep. You're going to have a bland in sleep. Yeah. I didn't even know about that drug when that movie. Yeah. So it's sleep. You're going to have a bland and sleep. Yeah. I didn't even know about that drug when that movie came out. Oh, you didn't?

No. I'd never heard of like, let's go do lewds or something. I had to like Google that. Like, what's a quaalude? But that was the thing then. Yeah, that was the thing then. Yep. Well, for all those guys it was.

Did you ever do them with him? Yes. What was that like? It was great. It was great. It was great, but I did one. Right. I didn't do 10.

Right. You know, that's just not my personality. Well, because it just makes you feel like you're drunk, but you don't get to hang over and you don't gain weight. That's why they became illegal. Oh. Right. That's convenient. Yeah, so that's That's why they became illegal. Right. That's convenient. Yeah.

So that's because they're almost too good. Right. So he's popping 10 lewds a day before your wedding. You have a fight. You get over it though. Yes, I do get over it. I have 250 people there. I show up with a smile on my face and we get married. Do you have like happy memories of that? Like, can you look back on that and be like, all right, there was good there or is it all like, Jesus Christ, why did I do this? No, there were some happy memories, of course, because I wouldn't have done it, right? So that's the thing about a trauma bond is there's something called intermittent reinforcement, meaning, of course, there's good times, but there's good times and there's bad times, right? So it's a percentage. So I would say 70%, 60% of it was bad,

and the rest was good. So, and that's what happens with the trauma bond, is that there's the love bombing, you fall in love with Romeo, but then the mask falls, and then a very different person emerges, but you're already hooked in. Do you think the mask, like you noticed the mask was falling when you got married?

Or would you say it really fell later? You just kind of had the signs before? Yeah, it was signs. It was signs. The threatening, you know, you have to do this, you have to do this, the fight before the wedding. But remember, I only knew him for a year at that point.

Yeah. So it was not that long. And again, I'm know him for a year at that point. Yeah. So it's not that long. And again, I'm a hopeful, trusting person. I'm like, oh, people are imperfect. It'll get better. It doesn't get better. Did your mom say anything? Oh, yes.

Did she notice what was going on? Yes, she took me to lunch and she said, you know you don't have to do this. Really? What are you doing? And I said, but mom, I love him. She's like, I said that too. Right, she was like, okay, here we go. Oh, man.

Yeah, no, she's a very smart lady. She didn't hit you with like I told you so later, did she? No, but she did a few really key things throughout the relationship that really saved my life. And we'll get to that. Okay. Yeah. So you guys get married, you're pregnant, you come back, now you're married to this guy. How much did you know? You knew he was successful. You knew he worked on Wall Street. Yeah. Did you know it was a boiler room though? Did you know what he was doing? I had no idea what he was doing. Math was not my subject. I'm a writer. Okay. So no. And then I had a miscarriage, which is okay, because I have two beautiful kids. But no, I had no idea what any of that was, what penny stocks and- So you didn't go

to the office and- Pumping dumps, whatever. You didn't go to the office and throw some midgets at the- No. I think I only went to the office, honestly, like twice. Good for you. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like you could catch a disease going there. Yeah, you could. You could.

I really, I mean, I'm sure I was kept away from the office on purpose. I think I went there once to interview a housekeeper and maybe one or two other times. So you don't know, I'm skipping way ahead with this, but when it eventually all comes crashing down, the fact that he was doing things that were breaking laws like that, you really didn't have an inkling of that.

No, not in the beginning. As time goes on, I do. Oh, you did? Yeah, as time goes on. Just like hearing things? Yeah, just hearing things, knowing that, you know, I mean, most of it was kept from me. But, you know, I had an idea that what he was doing wasn't kosher towards the end. Did you leave modeling completely behind when you got married?

Yes. Was that also him saying you have to leave that behind? Yes. How'd you feel about that? I was fine. I didn't love being a model. I mean, I did it because I made good money, but it wasn't like my passion, like what I do today, you know?

Right. So you don't miss it, but also like looking back on it, that's another, that seems to be another example of him being like, I'm going to tell you what to do. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. What was it like being married to him at the beginning like is that when the mass really comes off in the beginning let me think about it um well then it was like okay so then he's like okay we're moving to long island i was like i don't want to move to long island but we bought a big house on long island and again you that sounds beautiful. But when you're not ready for it and everything's forced on you, right?

So now it's always on his timeline. It's always what he wants. Now it's wrapped in these grandiose, beautiful gestures of luxury. But again, over time, that gets old. Yeah, it's buying your affection. Yeah. So but we moved to a beautiful house in Long Island. I took up horseback riding.

He makes fun of me in the book. I'm a decorator. I'm a landscape artist. I'm a this, I'm a that because I'm going to school. I think I'm Martha Stewart. I'm going to school. I go to school for interior design. I take cooking classes.

I take wine classes because if I'm going to buy a bottle of wine that's $2,000, I want to know if it's a grape or a place. If I'm going to buy a chair, I want to know if it's Louis XIV or Louis XVI. Oh, you're buying some nice chairs. Yeah. And I want to know. Obviously, I have my doctorate, so I'm obsessed with learning. And so he teases me in the book about that. So I created a beautiful life.

And I had beautiful friends. And I enjoyed horse horseback riding and I put myself into therapy. Oh, you did? What made you do that? Oh, being married to him and the lifestyle. I was like, there is no way I can handle this on my own. I mean, I was smart enough to know that. Did your therapist like put together some patterns and point out a thing or two about your marriage? I was in therapy with her for seven to eight years. So I was in therapy with her the whole entire time. And I often wondered, what was she thinking?

But she was a wonderful therapist. I went to her office every single Monday at 1 p.m. like Pavlov's dog. I was so happy just to have a nonjudgmental safe space to talk about all this crazy shit. And so I think she helped me manage it. And I think she helped me really stay sane. But she didn't... She didn't. She didn't say... I think though she knew like, here's the thing. If a woman's in a situation like this, if you say to them, you have to get out, they don't come back.

Right. Right. And that's also not my job, even in my work now. We have to give people their own process, the space to have their own process. And back then, you have to remember, nobody was talking about narcissism. They weren't? No. Nobody was talking about trauma bonds.

Even with narcissism, though, it's such a common term. I know. Maybe I'm taking that for granted. No. Nobody spoke about it. It was not in the zeitgeist unless – Really? Not at all.

Not at all. Yeah. Why do you think that was? I mean, that's as old as time. It's as old as time. It's been around since the beginning of fucking humans. Since Freud. I don't know.

I mean, she wasn't talking about it. Nobody had said that to me. Nobody had even mentioned that word to me. But you have to remember, we're also very focused on his drug addiction because that's so big. That's what you were talking about with her a lot. Yeah, yeah. That's what I was talking about with her all the time. And that really surprises me, though, that it didn't get to – like she didn't bring it to the point of like you really need to look at things here.

Not to say that – I want to be careful how I say this. You don't want to be like, oh, fuck that. You got to abandon a drug addict. Right. If it's someone you're in love with. That's right. Because we all know addiction is a horrible thing. Yes.

I hate seeing people deal with that. But at the same time, when it's someone who already has maybe some predisposed patterns who is now also doing that and making parts of your life an unnecessarily living hell. And this is someone that you also, at one point there, end up having kids with. That's right. You know, now they can get caught in the middle of it.

That's right. That's right. No, no, listen, I am not the type of therapist that she was, but I think it was a different time, a different era. And I still am grateful to her because I don't know if I would be alive. You don't know if you'd be alive? No. I don't know. Who knows?

Maybe I could have gotten more into drugs or I don't know. I don't know. I just think she really helped keep me grounded. So you don't mean it necessarily in the way that like, if you hadn't talked with her, you would have just been suicidal. No, no, no. It's more your life could have gone. Yeah. My life could have gone really. Off the rails. Yeah. Which it did, which it did go off the rails, but. But not you personally. Exactly. You were able to maintain yourself. Exactly. Your life went off the rails because he went off the rails. That's right. There's a huge difference. There's

a huge difference. Right. Cause like, I i feel i feel horrible when i see those situations where like you know you have a horrible domestic situation and when i say life goes off the rails it really goes off the rails for both of them i've seen it before i've seen it in my own family and stuff where yeah you know there's the abuser and then the abusee ends up getting caught up in drugs or something else and losing themselves and i have such empathy for that because i'm like i don't know like i'm also a guy i don't know how i deal with that as a woman right yeah and i can't imagine like feeling trapped like that almost like you're like at some point i'm getting a little ahead of myself here but at some point like when you're in that type of situation where you're recognizing like this is toxic, this is toxic.

Yeah. Does it – I know you're living in a mansion and like your bank account looks okay. But does it feel like you're imprisoned? Yes. Yes. It feels like you're trapped. Yeah. Trapped in a trauma bond.

Yeah. Yeah, it does. But at the – so you get this therapist right away. There was something in you that's like – Something in me knew. I need that. This is crazy. Yeah. Yeah was something in you that's like – Something in me knew, this is crazy, yeah. But marriage felt okay, things – I don't want to say normal, but you were in love? Yeah, we were in love and there was a lot of great moments.

We had so many great moments with friends coming over, so many great trips. And then, of course, babies come and they're so adorable and beautiful. But along the way, he's just dominating and doing drugs. And you have to remember, he leaves Stratton after a year, really, after I meet him. Yeah, what's the backstory there? Because he left, but didn't he come back?

Well, the movie isn't accurate. So he leaves, he gets a small fine, like $100,000, a slap on the wrist, and he leaves. Then he starts small fine, like $100,000, a slap on the wrist, and he leaves. Then he starts to control it all from home. Oh, gotcha. Yeah. And then he starts to set up satellite offices.

I feel like the SEC doesn't like that. No, I don't think so. So he gets that early, though. He gets $100,000. Is that where a light bulb goes off where you're like like maybe some of these things i'm hearing yeah so so and he was upset about that you know rightly so rightly so because he loves to work he's a workaholic even to today um so yeah but he you know you have to remember when you have that sort of personality, that grandiose personality, nobody's going to tell him what to do. Mm-mm.

No. Especially not you. Especially. He's going to tell you what to do. Especially not me. Especially not me. Did you call him out on that? I don't want to say call him out, but did you say to him, like, what the fuck are you doing?

No, I think I was actually really just very empathetic towards him. And like, he was so sad and devastated and... I think that was more my stance with him. But when he gets pulled from there, before he starts setting up some satellites and stuff... I can imagine as someone who was already predisposed to being addicted to Quaaludes and a good time, that was not necessarily, like, him having idle hands is not good for him no was not good was not

good no that's a good point so at that time you I mean is that when when you're like all right this is not gonna get better yeah well then the drug addiction just gets you know like like it it like the way it is it's a progressive disease right right either you stop or it gets worse and you're having kids I would That's – like the way it is, it's a progressive disease. Right. Right. Either you stop or it gets worse. And you're having kids I would imagine around the same time you're starting with kids. That's right. That's right.

I don't have kids yet. Look forward to doing that. But some of my friends are starting to have kids right now and obviously I've seen it throughout my life with family and things like that. It's like there's something, and this is a really good thing, that changes you when you have a kid where you're like, oh, my God. Yeah, yeah, I'm responsible for this little life, sure. And it does seem to me like he really does love his kids a lot. For sure. Right?

Okay. But at the time, like, do you think he could appreciate the gravity of that or was it more like, oh, cool, I'm having kids and he's just kind of his own worst enemy? Yeah. Yeah, I think it's more like that. I think he's just – that addiction at that level, that's all you could see. That's all he could do. And he has nobody telling him what to do.

He has all the money in the world, right? Doctors will give him whatever to do. He has all the money in the world, right? Doctors will give him whatever he wants. Oh, yeah, because he's, like, getting prescriptions for all this stuff. Oh, my God. Nobody says no to him, right? And then he just has so much power over everybody. Everybody's kissing his ass, you know? And the answer was, when I was like, guys, he can't go out.

Like he's like I would stay home with him. I would leave him at home. I would tell him not to do it. We get into fights. You know, when you're dealing with addiction, which I had never dealt with before, nothing works. And they were like, oh, just tell him to do some coke. I'm like, that is not a solution. Bring him back up. Yeah. Bring him back up.

Yeah, bring him back up. And so the Coke was really what did him in. The Coke was really what did him in. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of par for the course with Wall Street and stereotypes, I guess. Yeah, yeah. And that's when it got really bad.

And I was like, okay, this is done. Did you confide in other people besides your therapist? Sure. Like are you talking to your mom about this a little bit? Well, he would be stoned at family dinners. Oh, yeah. That's not great. You know, so I have a funny story where I talk about this in a TikTok where, again, because I'm just a nerd, I converted to be Jewish, okay, because his mom – I love his mom.

Are you still Jewish today? Well, yeah, but I'm being converted, so I'm still Jewish, okay, because his mom, I love his mom. Are you still Jewish today? Well, yeah, but I'm being converted, so I'm still Jewish, right? Even though I'm wearing a cross. That's right, man. Yeah, yeah. So I cook all this, like I make matzo ball soup from scratch. I make gefilte fish from scratch. And I set the table beautifully with, you know,

Christoffel china and puifacat silver and these linens. And so I set it always for everybody. Everybody comes and we're all sitting around the table. I guess it was probably Rosh Hashanah. And, you know, he sits down and he's like, this is delicious. And I'm like, I am going to kill him. I'm going to kill him.

And I go into his office and I find the bag of Quaaludes and I'm like, that's it. And I take them and I steal them while he's at the table. But you have to remember, so my mother's there, his parents are there,

everybody's seen this. But his brother's there. And so the next day... but no one's saying anything but nobody's saying anything right and that's the unfortunate part but again you can't control a drug addict

no it's so then the next day I'm giving my daughter some yogurt in his office and he's like where are my quaaludes where are my quaaludes

who took my quaaludes I know my brother took my quaaludes and I'm just giving her yogurt like and I just giving her yogurt like and i just kept him for like six months oh he didn't even know no he got more but oh but he did yeah right down to the doctor's office right exactly so but i mean that's the level of how much it was in our lives wow so in front of family too and but like you still love

the guy like you're still extremely drawn to him at the time. Yeah, yeah. And I have empathy for him and I want to fix him and save him, which I know that's not possible now as a grown woman. But I had this, you know, childlike belief. So you don't think it's possible to fix or save someone. I think I agree with you on that. Like it has to be something that comes from the like it has to it has to come from them yeah it has to come from them but do you think it's possible to help people yes guide themselves to get that yes yes but usually with a drug addict at his level he had to hit

rock bottom which you know he finally did stop doing drugs because I confronted him and that's when our whole life got violent. Oh, it got violent when he stopped doing drugs? No, it got – so in the movie they show the scene of me saying to him, you're never going to see your kids and then he punches me, right? Yeah. I never said that. I mean, you're meeting me now. Do I seem like somebody that would say that? I don't think so.

No. I haven't seen the Brooklyn come out though. No, no. I wouldn't said that. I mean, you're meeting me now. Do I seem like somebody that would say that? I don't think so. I haven't seen the Brooklyn come out, though. No, no, I wouldn't say that. But I did say to him, and this isn't in the movie, he's probably in the book, though. I say to him, if you don't go to rehab, I'm leaving you. I'm not going to sit here and watch you kill yourself. All these sycophants that you have, they're all just going to suck off the money

and watch you kill yourself. Is he, at this point, is he back at Stratton? No, heon no he's just no he's still he never goes back to stratton he's just controlling everything from behind okay so just just the context they changed the timeline then they do they changed the timeline yeah he never does that whole scene what you know i'm not going back i'm not fucking leaving yeah i'm not fucking leaving yeah i'm not fucking leaving yeah that doesn't that doesn't happen. Damn it. I know. Or maybe it did.

Between you and me, it did. Maybe it did. I don't know. Because I need that in my life. Okay, that's fine. It's a good scene. It's a great scene. And so, but he doesn't.

So what happens is that he's home and I just say that to him, but he's still running business, right? So it's not like he's still running big deals and whatever he does, he does. And that's when he went crazy and threw all my clothing and jewelry and lit them on fire. Oh, he lit them on fire? In the fireplace. And he starts screaming at me obscenities that I won't even say on this podcast. It is in New Jersey. You can... No, it's not. It's just to call me a gold digger, you fucking whore, like, just going off on me. You know, just horrible, terrible things.

And I go into my closet, and I say, God, give me the strength to do this. Like, I have to do this. Our life is terrible. He's cooking crack in my country kitchen at this point. Oh, he's cooking crack. Okay? So that was, like, the end. And so that didn't last long.

And I actually go to my mother's for the night and i have leave my children with my housekeeper i know they're fine and uh i come back and he says to me i'm chartered a private plane i'm taking our daughter to florida now he's high on coke and i'm like no you're not you think you're taking our daughter to florida no you're not how old's your daughter like three three yeah Three. Yeah. And two and a half. And that's so my mother was so smart. And that's when my mother comes in. She says, you have to call the police and tell them you're going home to a domestic violence situation.

So I do that before I go home. And then he tells me he's taking my daughter and I chase him up the stairs and he kicks me in my solar plexus down the stairs while he's holding my daughter. Now, luckily I was 31 at the time. I was in crazy shape and I run up the stairs and I can't even say to the, so I dial 911, but I hang it up right away because I don't even have time to talk because I got to get him. Right. And my security guard and housekeeper are just watching him take her. They're not doing anything. They're not helping.

And so I, so then he, we, and so that's like the scene in the garage. So I go, he takes, he puts her in the car. I jump in the car and I say to another housekeeper who's in the house, I say, close the garage. She closes the garage. And so he drives us into the garage door. And I'm like, okay,

we're in trouble. Like, he's going to kill me, I think. You know, I'm like, he's lost his mind. This is not the Jordan that I met and married. Drugs has taken over. But luckily because I had called 911, as soon as I said to my housekeeper, take Chandler to the back.

Took my daughter to the back and then the police came. and he got arrested and then he did go to rehab and get sober but had you made up your mind at this point i'm leaving this guy i had yeah yeah but then he got sober for us so then i'm like okay i'm gonna them. But at that point, there'd been so much damage to our relationship. Did you still love him? I don't know if love was the word. I think that, you know, the thing about emotional abuse and verbal abuse is we call it death by a thousand cuts. Right? That went on and the power, the domination

went on through my whole marriage. But there is something about being physically harmed that feels real. Yeah. You know? Even though the other stuff I think could have been worse, actually, but that's a very defining moment, at least it was for me. And because now I'm like you're dangerous

like i'm not safe with you and you weren't writing them off as like well this isn't you because you're high on drugs you're saying this is just what you've become yeah this is what you've become yeah this is what you've become if you can behave like this this is this is outrageous i mean this is you have to remember i grew up in a home and there was no yelling. Yeah. Right. So I'm like, I have no point of reference for this. And so he did come back for a year. And then a year later, he got, he got arrested. And that's when I left. Now, you had said a little while ago that you didn't think anything was wrong at first, but over the years, you would hear some things and then you would think some stuff is wrong. Yes. anything was wrong at first but over the years you would hear some things and then you would think some stuff is wrong yes what first of all like what did you you mentioned your mom

taped 750 so that's so that's like okay something why are you having to do that to do that right right so but i still don't i don't understand what he's doing because i don't want to understand and b what am i going to do but he's so he gets arrested long after he technically left stratton oakmont. Yeah, years and years. But you said he was like still running the place almost like with shell companies on the back end, where his charges based on the stuff he was doing through like the shell companies, or were they based on the stuff he did before he left? No, I think I think I don't know. But I know he got arrested on 11 counts, I think of money laundering. It sounds right. I think – I don't know, but I know he got arrested on 11 counts, I think, of money laundering. That sounds right.

I think that's right. So I don't know. That, I'm sure, had more to do with whatever he did with sending the money to Switzerland. Right. Okay. Right? And then I don't know how that worked with all those other companies. But, yeah, so then – but then also it makes sense.

When you're doing drugs, you're not making sound decisions. Oh, yeah. 100%. Right? You're not making sound decisions. Oh, yeah, 100%. Right? You're not making sound decisions. So that year he was sober. Wait, he comes back to you for a year after this whole event? Yeah.

So you're still with him. Yep, I still stay with him, yes. And then it's a full year after that year before he gets arrested. But he's sober for this year. Yes. So then it ends. He stops being sober. No, no.

So he's sober the whole year. The first year?. He stops being sober. No, no. So he's sober the whole year. The first year? Yep. Okay. Yeah. And then he gets arrested. Oh, I understand. Okay.

Yeah. He gets arrested. And then I'm like, that's it. I'm out. Because he can't hurt me anymore. He can't control me anymore. Right? So what happens in a trauma bond, there's a power imbalance.

So what happened was that now the power imbalance shifted. Yeah. You have the leverage. Yeah. He can't have power over me because now he's got to deal with the FBI. It's an... You have to remember, when you're married to somebody who has a lot of power like that, he could say, I'm the drug addict. Mm.

Right? People pay off judges. Yeah. Right? I mean, these... We live in a real world and who's going to listen to me really? So when he comes back and is sober, he had been physical with you, so you're not in love with him at this point. And this is obviously before he gets arrested. Like, is this the part where it feels like you're trapped because now you don't have i don't mean to say it like this but you don't have the excuse of him being on drugs so he's like around and he's somewhat normal but you like the mask is off and you're like this guy's a

megalomaniacal narcissist and he ain't getting better yeah i didn't use those words i didn't know those terms at all but i just i think it was more for me that I was so hurt. Like, that love was just shredded. Time and time and time and time. So I just fell out of love. If somebody's abusive and mean to you long enough, love leaves. Your kids, do you think, were they young enough that like enough of this kind of went right over their head? Yeah, they didn't really. That's good. Yeah. My daughter remembers that one day. But no, they don't remember any of it.

Thank God. Okay. Yeah, that's a good thing. So the feds come in. They arrest them. You're not shocked, I guess. But the veracity, like I guess the depth of what they were arresting him for was any of that like a surprise because it was a lot i mean yeah again you know the they they come

and he's already arrested i think i had left to get my son's blanket from a friend's house and so there they come and they tell me you know your husband's been arrested for this many things and they're like for money laund, do you know what that is? I said, yeah, it's like what the mob does. Like, that's what I knew money laundering to be. Like, well, not really, blah, blah, blah. And then the hard part there was that they took him away. And I was left with the FBI for four hours by myself without an attorney.

Are they, like like questioning you? Yeah, yeah, they're questioning me, yeah. They knew I wasn't the mastermind. That's good. Yeah, they knew it wasn't me, but what I was always angry about was that he should have said to me, if this ever goes down, this is who you call. And he never did. I should have never been left alone

with the FBI for four hours. Do you think he was so into himself that he actually thought he was infallible and that that would never happen? So that's why he didn't give you a warning? Maybe. Yeah. Maybe he just never thought it was coming. I don't know. But so I was with them and my husband's name, Agent Coleman, he had visited one of my friends before this and so they they had me in the room for four hours and you know they were such jerks i mean they had a woman there to make me feel safer but you know make no mistake the fbi is not a group of nice people right they're not like a warm fuzzy group people. And so I was so pissed by the end of the night. And Coleman says to me, so what do you think of me?

What did you hear about me? I said, I think you're a fucking dick. Which, why did I say that to an FBI agent? Probably not the smartest thing to say. No, but it's not illegal. But I was so furious at the whole system at this point. Like, I'm just this young, innocent girl. Yes, did I enjoy the money? Did I buy too many pairs of shoes? For sure. Podcasts are great because they help us make the most out of our routine.

We learn about the fall of the Ottoman Empire while we drive, keep up with news while we take the dog for a walk, or turn folding laundry into a comedy show. Make the most out of your time with the PC Insider's World's Elite MasterCard, a credit card that can get you unlimited free grocery delivery and the most PC optimum points on everyday purchases. The PC Insider's World's Elite MasterCard, the card for living unlimited. Conditions apply to all benefits. Visit pcfinancial.ca for details. You know, but that was really it it i really went into this marriage to love and to have a life with this man and so then he got arrested and i just was like that's it i'm done i'm done you filed for divorce right away i didn't file for divorce right away but i told

him i can't do this anymore because also in the before he got, when I was talking to him about it, and I was like, this was really hard, your drug addiction, your abuse. He was like, it wasn't that bad. Oh, he said that? Yeah, he said that to me. And I remember I was getting sushi, and I'll never forget it. And I didn't know the word callousness. Now, maybe he didn't want to admit how bad it was for fear that I would leave him. You know, I don't know what his reasoning was,

but that really, the lack of remorse, was really the knife in my heart. Probably in his mind, I mean, I don't know if you can correct me if i'm wrong here based on what you think but he probably just looked at it transactionally like i gave you all these things probably you have everything you want like you can't deal with a little bullshit yeah probably i mean i i don't know but that could be a take on it but for me that was that was not correct. Yeah. Yeah. And so then he went to our Southampton house and I stayed in our Brookville house. And that was my beginning of liberation.

And he's under indictment, like talking to prosecutors about a deal. So you know he's going to jail. Yeah. Two. Yeah. And you know that that, like you said, like you you now have the leverage like he's going to be going away you can take care of yourself do what you got to do what was the money situation like though did you just assume everything was going to be taken or yeah i drove to the courthouse

with a million dollars worth of my jewelry and i gave it up and they took it all and i was like take it oh for his bail yeah 10 million dollars in bail oh so you still yeah you were giving to yourself to bail him yeah yeah i'm not going to abandon him like like that on the court i'm not going to do that i'm not going to be like i'm taking the jewelry i'm out i might have been like bye-bye no no i'm not that type of person no and so we gave up everything we owned and i was happy because it was blood money and i didn't want it. Blood money. That's how you looked at it. Yeah. I didn't want it. So you thought he was guilty of sin for sure. Yeah. I was like, I don't want this. If they're getting 11 counts of whatever they are,

money laundering, I'm like, I don't want it. And the money was a trap. Yeah. The money didn't buy me happiness. The money did not give me any protection or safety, which I thought it would. So all the things that you think that money's going to give you, zero. So I just wanted to be free and calm and drama-free and peaceful. That was worth a billion to me. That's well put. Really well put. Yeah. I mean, people have like the quote, like, money can't buy you happiness, but it can help.

If it's not, if all those other variables are given up, I don't think it really helps at all. No. No. I mean, I'm living proof that it wasn't, it wasn't, it didn't, it didn't make me feel any of those things that I thought it would make me feel. What did the therapist say at this point? Like once he's, like, she's like, I knew this all along. Yeah, she was like, I don't really remember, but you know, again, she was always there

for me. And, and it was at that point that Jordan, because Jordan was sober, and his sponsor calls me up and says, Nadine, I don't care what you're going to do. You're going to leave him. You want a date. But if you don't go to this place, you're going to marry the same exact type of guy or meet the same exact type of guy. Like it was a psychological center. And I was like, no way. I called him up that day, checked myself in, and I went to a place called the Karen Foundation.

Wait, you checked your, like a rehab center? No, it's like an emotional, it's kind of, it's really for people, I guess, who were dealing with addicts, right? Yeah. And so it's like a five-day intensive, psychological intensive to heal. Wow. I don't think I've ever heard, that's kind of a cool resource. Yeah, it's called Breakthrough at Karen. It's still there. Wow. I don't think I've ever heard. That's kind of a cool resource. Yeah, it's called Breakthrough at Karen.

It's still there. Yeah. Karen Foundation is an amazing, amazing addiction center. They're all over the country now. The one I went to was in Pennsylvania. And it's just five days? Yeah, five days. So is this just an intensive getting to the core of you need to recognize what happened

here? How does it work? I didn't know that I could say no. I didn't know about boundaries back then. Nobody was really talking about boundaries. Now it's, you know, everybody talks about boundaries. It's like every other word. But so I learned all these things.

I learned about my family of origin. I learned about... Your family of origin? Meaning like, you know, my mother had just survived and I was just surviving. I wasn't really thriving. Like today I'm thriving. Yeah.

Right. Just learned about how to not, my, my, I think my, the thing that they made my sentence be, my caretaking made my life chaotic. Like my over caretaking. And so then I just really worked on that. And all the strings that went along with it. And they did family role playing. It was amazing, amazing place. And I'm sure it's even more incredible today. But that was the beginning of my new life. Yeah. So you, but that's like, that's almost like an intensive,

what's the word I'm looking for? Not therapy session. I mean, that's what you're doing. It's obviously therapy, but there's another term I'm looking for. It's like an intensive retreat in a way where you gotta be like, Hey, we're going to get to your reality. You're going to go home a new person. But like, this is not two months or three months or something. It's like five days. It's literally from six in the morning to 11 at night. They break you down and they put you into two different groups. And it was the best thing I ever did. Now, is that what real, I mean, you were working with a therapist this whole time.

So obviously like that interest is there for a long time, getting internal and stuff. But is this a real turning point in where you get, what's the word I'm looking for? Like completely self-reflective as far as like recognizing all of the psychological patterns that had gotten the relationship to this point? Yes. Yes. It's the beginning of it.

It's the beginning of it. It's the beginning of it. You know, beginning of it. It's the beginning of it. You know, they were like, you're codependent and he's an addict. You know, now in my research and studies, I don't necessarily just agree with that. I think there was a lot more going on, but that was a really great starting point for me to really start to heal. And because remember, when I'm in therapy with him, I'm just managing. Yeah. There's no healing going on. So it was a great starting point for me to heal. That's a good when I'm in therapy with him, I'm just managing. There's no healing

going on. So it was a great starting point for me to heal. That's a good way to put it, managing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was just managing. And so now I just am like, okay, never going to do that again. Now, what else though did you think it was? You said, you just used the terms, you're codependent and he's an addict. What were the other variables? Well, now I know we were in the quintessential trauma bond. You know, I had no idea again about narcissism or this coercive control or intermittent reinforcement or this power...

Intermittent reinforcement? Yeah, that's where 70% of the time they're cruel, controlling, abusive, and then 30% of the time they're nice, kind, and generous and helpful, and that's actually what creates the bond. So I didn't know about all of these things back then, but it was a good start and a good foundation for me to start to get my power back.

Do you think it was also bipolar too? Because these patterns, I'm not a psychiatrist, but these patterns are, as you described them, are reflective of like hot and cold, nice and mean, not really a lot of 50%. Not a lot of 50%. Not a lot of 50%. I mean, probably, you know, I don't, I would hate to diagnose him. Even today? Even today. Good for you.

Yeah. But he, so this like kind of starts your new life. Yeah. You get your kids. Is this when you start like divorce proceedings because he's going to jail? Yeah. I just say to him, I want to get divorced. He moves to one house.

I'm in the other house. He's busy with the FBI doing whatever he's doing. And I had, I had had a little company. I had a maternity house. He's busy with the FBI doing whatever he's doing. And I had had a little company. I had a maternity company. A maternity company. Yeah, I made maternity clothing for women. Because remember, I'm pregnant, so I hate all the maternity clothing. And so I have a website, a catalog, and a store. So I have my own little business. And I was dating. I was like dating Michael Bolton. You dated Michael Bolton? I did.

Wait, so you rebounded with Michael Bolton? No, just for fun, just for a few weeks. Yeah, so you rebounded with Michael fucking Bolton. A lot, a lot. A lot of men. I think a golf pro, the guy that owns Theory. Yeah, I was having fun. And then-

Is that weird, dating though? Like right away after being in such a long relationship? No, I was having fun. And then we're dating though, like right away after being in such a long No, I was I was looking at your number. I'm 32. I know. Yeah, I'm ready to date. I'm ready to date. I haven't felt like I've been loved in years. You took a five day retreat. And you're like, let's go. Let's do it. And so I was dating and working really hard and raising my kids. And it was a happy, very happy time. And then about a year and a half later, I met my current husband. And how did you meet him, first of all? On a blind date.

Another kind of blind date. Yeah, another blind date, which is kind of crazy that I did that again, right? Yes. I mean, the last one, you knew the guy that was coming. Yes. So it's like, but how did, who said, yeah. My old business partner, and he had given my husband, current husband is an amazing dancer, and he had given this girl's brother dance lessons for his bar mitzvah or something.

So he knew her for like 40 years. And so he was living in California, and he was in the garment business too. And I said, I'll go out with anybody once. All right. Let's give it a whirl, and then that was it. Very nice man. Even before you got there, I want to come back to this. Yeah, go ahead.

But when you're starting to date these other guys, which, I mean, Michael Bolton for a few weeks, that's a flex, but are you very suspicious of these people when you're starting to date them? Because you're like, now I don't trust anybody. So now I went from being the most trusting person in the universe to not trusting. Yes. And now it'd be hard to develop anything when you're like, it is hard. But now you have to remember, it's also not so much about trusting other people it's also about trusting yourself because now i've gotten educated i'm understanding myself more i'm understanding relational dynamics a little bit better i mean i compared to where i am today i'm still green as

hell but um i'm feeling you know i love relationships i love love love. So I'm ready to fall in love, but I want to... You're ready to fall in love. Yeah, I'm very weary of falling in love, but I'm not against it. Okay. Yeah, I'm not against it. So it's not out of the question,

but you're like, what could go wrong here? Yeah, well, now I don't trust people. Yeah. Okay, so you meet your now current husband. You've been married, I guess, for what, like 20 years, something like that? 23 years. This one's a successful marriage. 23 years, yeah. Okay. So what about him made you trust him? And how long did that take? You know, what made me trust him was when we've had our first fight, he said to me, oh, yeah, I get that. I hear you.

And I was like, what? That's never happened before. I was like, you hear me? You're willing to collaborate? You're willing to cooperate? I couldn't believe it. What was the fight over? Something like, I don't even remember.

But it was something stupid. It was like where to go for dinner or something like i don't even remember but it was something stupid it was like where to go for dinner or something i don't know um but it was yeah and i and i now i have a saying if somebody can't hear you they can't love you well i might use that that's pretty good it's good yeah i'll give you some creds okay okay someone can't hear you they can't love you yeah so you never felt like jordan actually listened to you you felt like he listened to respond yes rather than understand yes that's a good way to say okay so your new husband when you're dating him you felt like he actually saw you understood you yes yes that's interesting yes that's usually like you know when you break down anything in the world not

even just romantic relationships any type of relationship it never ceases to blow my mind how much the very first thing to go down in many cases is just communication. That's right. And then everyone else's flaws get exacerbated by that if they have them. That's right. But like, God, it seems so simple, but you get those wires crossed even once with somebody and it just... I know. Yeah.

Yeah, I know. Communication is everything. And you have to be able... We have a collaborative part of the brain. And for some people, it's just not activated. And for his, it was. And he's very caretaking. He would like bring me tea, right?

There's my acts of service, right? Right there. He's italian he's a great chef makes homemade pizza i love pizza i'm from brooklyn and so we just and he had three kids i had two kids we were all the same age my favorite show growing up was the brady bunch i was like here we go and um and he said to me i live in cal California. Why don't you move to California? How long did that take? You said you were ready to fall in love, but you were weary of it. So what was the timeline? About two years.

Okay. About two years, yeah. So you're feeling it out for a while. Yeah. And then eventually just feel safe. And then I feels safe. And then Jordan was wearing his ankle bracelet and decided to take a helicopter to Atlantic City. So I was actually able to move. Wait, what?

Yeah. I'm so confused. Okay, so I'm dating John. Yeah. What year are we in? 05? 04? Yeah, no, no, no, no.

We're like in 2000. no, no, no. We're like in 2000. No, no, no. We're in 2000 maybe. Yeah. So Jordan's not in prison yet. Jordan doesn't go to prison for six, seven years. He doesn't get sentenced for six, seven years. Really?

I didn't know that. Yeah. But he's out with his ankle bracelet, but he does this stupid thing and takes a helicopter to new jersey with an ankle you can't do that and so my attorney says to me uh i know you want to go to california you can probably go now what why couldn't you go because because he's dead yeah because i'd be taking the kids yeah and i'm not i was never looking to take his kids ever. But if he's going to be in jail before he's sentencing, which is really what happened, then the judge was like, tell her to go.

And then we left and we rebuilt our life. Did he, like, did Jordan have access to really any, like, he's taking a helicopter to AC. Did he have access to money at the time? I don't know. Because remember, I'm not with him. So I have no idea what he's doing. Hear to AC. Did he have access to money at the time? I don't know. Cause remember now I'm not with him. So I have no idea what he's doing here. No, he will see.

No. Yeah. And I don't know why he would do that. Honestly. Cause we weren't talking. Yeah. I was like, he did that.

All right. Was he getting jealous at all that you were out there again? You know what? My husband was really good. He said to me, I'm going to call Jordan and I'm going to take him for breakfast. I was like, really? Okay.

And he did. And he said, I'm going to be around your kids and I know what it's like to have somebody around my kids and I want to meet you. And did they get along? They got along right from the get-go. Wow. I think Jordan really respected that. Now you go to California though. Was Jordan, because it's several years

before he even goes to prison, was he able to see his kids at all? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I would send them back for the summers and then he moved to California. Were you ever worried

about that though? Like obviously he loves his kids but he's his own worst enemy. He's going through a crazy time. You know what? At that point, he was really humble. He was very sober.

He was humble. He was. He was. Define humble. He was very sober. He was humble. He was. He was. Define humble. He was different. There wasn't that grandiosity. He just, he was into the simple things. He was into the simple things.

He'd bake cookies with them. He'd cook with them. He actually was with them, doing things with them. And no, he was sober. And I always know how much he loves his children. That's a fact, 150%. And my sister was there. I had a lot of friends in Long Island. And I'm the type of mother that, you know, I have children with this man. I have to respect that. As long as he's a good dad and they're being safe with him, it's not for me to play God and be like, you get to see your kids like this.

That's not cool. I agree. But if there were ever a time where people would be understanding. Yes, they would be. But he demonstrated all – he was just really being a great dad it's it's kind of crazy though like how crammed this timeline is though for you to get to this zen because in a way like you're dealing with a progressively deteriorating marriage for what seven eight years something like that he's a drug addict that makes it 10 times worse yes he then gets sober but it's miserable for a year he then gets a he gets under federal indictment.

He's facing fucking 40 years in prison if things go wrong. And like you divorce him. You start dating. You find a man you love. He does something stupid. You move to California. Like this is all happening. Like that part, the end, happens so fast.

And yet you're able to get yourself to a place where, A, you can fall in love with again, but also, B, like, you can have the zen to step back and be like, you know what? He actually, you know, I hated this guy in a lot of ways. Yeah. Based on where it got to, but he does really care about his kids, my kids, with him. Yeah, yeah. And he's a good, like, you used the words, like, he's a good dad at that time. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he was a great dad. So, and I'm a good, like you used the words, like he's a good dad at that time. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. He was a great dad. So, and I'm just not, I don't know. Again, if I thought they were unsafe,

if I thought he was still doing drugs, but he was really a perfect citizen except for the Atlantic City thing, you know, for that little moment, but because he's being watched.

Yeah. Right? So he's, he's very calm. You weren't worried about him going back to drugs, though? I really wasn't. Because he's that type of person. You know, once he makes his mind up, he's in it.

Hmm. Yeah. He's really like that. And if I saw any signs of that, then that wouldn't be the case. But then he moved to California two years later. Oh, he did? To be with them. Yeah, to be with them. But then he moved to California two years later. Oh, he did? Yeah, to be with them. All before prison?

Mm-hmm. So they let him move to California? They did. Yeah. How'd that work? I don't know. I don't know how he did that. By a judge? I don't know. I don't know. Maybe I really- There was some hesitation there. No, I don't really know. Honestly, I don't know. But I just know he did. He moved to California.

And it was probably nice for him, too. Yeah. It was really nice for all of us just to start over. Yeah. Yeah. Now, how close was he to you out in California? 10 minutes away. Oh, that's dangerously close.

Yeah, he was close. He was close. You handled this so well. I'd be like freaking out. Like, all right, maybe an hour. That'd be good. Yeah, no. It was OK.

You know, I knew. Listen, I know how much i love my kids and i know how important they are to me and so he did that and i'm sure he wants to start over too yeah you know not be where everybody's talking about you and because california new york's pretty far yes yeah it's very far a few miles there yeah and it's a totally different lifestyle totally different way of being. And nobody knew. Like when I moved, nobody knew about any of it. Right.

Unless I brought it up. Right. But it's not like if I lived on Long Island where everybody would be talking about it. When you were like called the Duchess, like he would refer to that in movie and stuff, were you ever, because of his high profile rich guy running around New York doing some crazy shit once in a while, was that like a public thing too where you were referred that way when he was arrested so that's just like a that was like an inside yeah yeah yeah yeah so you're totally anonymous yes out there yeah there's no movie there's no book right there's nothing nobody knows anything yeah so

it was great yeah so he didn't go to prison till like 05, something like that? Yeah, maybe 05, 06. I don't know. I don't remember exactly. But it was a few years later. Yeah, probably 05. And what did he do, like three, four years? 22 months. Okay, so a little less than two years.

But he had been with his kids as they're growing up before that. So how did you guys handle like, oh, well, now he's gone for a little bit. We told the kids. We told the kids we told the kids together i don't even remember that i think my kids probably remember it more than i do but we did we told them and they visited him with my uncle and my aunt would take them um i think twice you didn't take him to do it definitely not okay yeah not your scene no no and that wasn't my place. That wasn't my place. But yeah, so, and then I restarted my life.

Were you thinking at this time, like you wanted to take your personal trauma and like actually make this into something where you could use it as an expertise? Was that already a thought? No, it was never a thought. Never? It was not a thought.

I actually just decided around 38 that I was going to go back to school to become a therapist because I believe therapy had saved my life. Right. Okay. So maybe I asked that wrong. That's kind of what I'm thinking. Yeah. But it wasn't like I wanted to help this population, which is, that happens much later on for me. I just want to be a therapist to everybody. I'm not like, oh, I want to help women. I'm like, oh, I want to help people with personality disorders, couples, anxiety, depression. And so I go back to school. That's when he starts to write the book or he had written the book. I don't remember. He might've written the book by then. Wasn't it like Tommy Chong? Yeah. Yeah.

Cause he did it in jail. So it had to be like 2005, 2006. So I had to go back to school, I think 2007. Okay. And I got my master's. And then you have to do 3,000 hours to be a licensed clinician. 3,000 hours of? Face-to-face therapy. Okay. To get trained.

Wait, that's a lot of hours. That's a lot of hours. That's a lot of hours. Yeah. That's a good thing, though. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And then I was like, oh, my God, I have to do this. lot of hours that's a lot of hours yeah that's a good thing though yes absolutely yeah and then i sound like oh my god i have to do this i might as well just stay in and get my doctorate while i'm doing the hours and then i did that and then that's um when yeah i think it was like

the movie came out in 2013 i finished my doctor in 2015 now he writes the book you had said this earlier in our conversation. He's like, I did it for us. And you're like, no, no, the fuck you didn't. Yeah. But it comes out, I believe like it did pretty well. Like before the movie, it was a bestseller. Yeah, it was very good. So you read it. Like you said, it's comedic. There's things that are certainly remembered differently. But how, how quickly after being published, did he first say to you hey they're looking at making a movie about this you know he always said it i think all along but i really didn't pay attention to it i was like it'll never be a movie yeah i'm like it's gonna be a movie

it's not gonna be a movie but i should have known i should have known i should have known to believe him when you should have known to believe him yeah because when he said he would do something yeah then he's gonna do it yeah he's gonna do it yeah he's actually i have to say this this is really bad to say now but it's been a while since i worked on wall street when we were training to do our jobs yeah someone got a hold of the Stratton Oakmont sales manual. Oh, my God. And I will admit we did read that cover to cover. Yeah. I hope no one in the office saw that.

But he was uncanny at being able to sell people. Unbelievable. Like we haven't really addressed that today. Yes. Yes, he's love bombing you. He's doing these things. Oh, but he's selling me. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. There's nobody like him to like like he could sell sand to someone in saudi arabia it's unbelievable it's true to this day did you ever see because he he did i don't know if he still does it but he did his podcast for a while and he did an episode this had to be like five six years ago with grant cardone did you ever see this or hear about i think i've heard about it but i don't i've not seen it i've never seen his podcast grant cardone some psycho-scientologist who like claims to be all about sales and jordan it's really hard to watch that and not think jordan's 100 right because you can say what you want about jordan with the fraud and all that like yeah he how to sell. He knows how to sell. This guy doesn't know sales at all.

He doesn't know sales at all. You're sitting here telling me stuff I know it's not true. And you're watching it and you're like, holy shit, because he's just picking it apart and he can smell it. Yeah, he's smart. He's got the skill in both directions, which has got to be tough because then he can use, in the wrong ways, he can use that as a manipulation tactic because he knows when he's getting sold or when someone's going to try to pull one around him. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. No, he's a great, great, great seller.

Yeah. Now, when did you find out it was going to be Scorsese? Was that not until the call about can she meet you? No, I knew about that. I knew that it was Scorsese and leonardo i was like okay here we go yeah the hits just keep on coming with jb that's just what happens he's the gift that keeps on giving yeah yeah and um so no and then i was just like okay you know and and it just again it was bigger than me. There was nothing

I could do about it. And so at some point I was like, I'm just going to surrender. Cause there's just, there was nothing I can do. Like when you can't control a situation, am I going to ruminate about it? Am I going to fret about it constantly? I'm like, no, I got to focus on my life my kids and it ended up turning out very well for me yeah yeah and you didn't talk for years after this came out you didn't open up a tick tock till like a few years ago i think right till 2022. what made you because again like it ended up being iconic everyone can think of these scenes right here obviously margo did a hell of a job yeah making this iconic but you know what made you suddenly you know 10 years later nine years later whatever it was be like all right you know i'll i'll come out and talk now well one of my young patients because i had social i had my instagram since 2017 and one of my young patients says you

have to go on tiktok i'm like i'm not going on TikTok. I'm like, I'm a 54 year old woman. I'm not filming myself every day. That is, that's ridiculous. She was like, Nadine, you need to go on TikTok. Shout out to Alex. And so I called one of my friends and I'm like, can you come film me? You know, so we do some films, we do some videos, but I'm doing it mostly about psychology. So then she comes over, my friend, to film me again. And I said, you know, there's this YouTube video on TikTok. I mean, there's this YouTube video that has a million views of me. She goes, what?

I said, yeah, it's me with my father-in-law, Max. She goes, are you serious? And I said, yeah. She goes, we're going to start a film about the Wolf of Wall Street. And as soon as she said that, I started to shake. 25 years later, I started to shake. Why'd you shake? Because I was like, because I was scared. My body remembers. Your body keeps the score. The body holds the trauma. And she was like, you can do it. It's time for you to tell your story. And I was just like, well, you know, there are a lot of women in my office coming in abused still. I'm like, this is ridiculous.

And so now I'm starting to think to write my book, right? I might have been writing my book at that point. I think I might have been writing my book. And so I did like a few videos and they went viral. Yeah. Right away. Of course. And they were like, more, more. We want to understand more. might have been writing my book and so i did like a few videos and they went viral yeah right away of course and i and they were like more more we want to understand more we want to know more duchess we love you you know and i was like wow it's amazing though that that would make you shake 25 years later when you think about the 15 years into that yeah the movie was like, I would think that would make you shake,

even if it's not all true. And they changed some things, the concept of like reliving that to billions of people seeing it. But it wasn't me telling it. Yes. You actually, it's not me. Right.

So, and I am, I am a naturally, I'm an introvert, even though it doesn't seem like it, but I really, I could see that recharge by even though it doesn't seem like it, but I really I could see that. Recharged by writing and doing things like that.

And so I was freaked out to do it. Yeah. But I knew I could take this insanely popular movie and exploit it to help women everywhere. And so, because that was what my book was about. What, what did back, back to when it came out though, like, what did your now husband think about it again? Like when it came out? He was cool about it. He just was like, okay, here we go. It's like, I'm married to a badass now.

Yeah. Oh, then, you know, what would happen? He'd go on the golf course and the guys would be like, you know, you, I saw your wife naked in that movie. He's like, it's not my wife. I mean, it was symbolically you, though. Yes, yes. So he's very cool about it. He's great. He didn't actually reenact anything. No, he didn't.

He's just a great guy. So he was very supportive of the whole thing. What about your stepkids, too? Because they weren't around for any of this. Yeah, you know, weren't around for any of this yeah that you know i don't know everybody was you know i think and when you when your parents the fish stinks from the head if the parents are cool the kids are cool yeah you know we weren't like oh my god i mean i actually had jordan over the day the movie came out you had him over yeah yeah to like talk about it no because i have it's came out christmas

day and i have my kids in the morning and he takes him in the afternoon right and i could tell when i spoke to him he was nervous and i think my son had gotten like a weird phone call and i said you know what instead of going out why don't you bring why don't you just come here like i have leftover prime rib and potatoes and he did for old time's sake yeah with his with his fiance and my husband and we watched old movies of the kids and yeah so i had him over the day this is the modern family show we need right here this is way i like this plot line better you like it better yeah that's cool it's it's just really cool that you guys all had like such clarity on it you know yeah it it blew up it's

a cultural phenomenon it's a culture talking about it 40 years from now just you had the greatest director the greatest actor of the era and then everyone else in it was incredible it's funny as well like can you laugh at it like obviously you have your own personal whatever yes yes i can i can laugh at it. And I think it's important that I do get to tell my narrative now. Yeah. Right? And so that is the beauty of TikTok.

And because I did suffer a lot, right? But I can hold both. Two things can be true. I was very traumatizing. And it's funny. And I get to use it. And to me, that's the best part. Now, Jordan was not so thrilled once I started to use it. Oh, he wasn't?

No. Nope. Did you get a phone call about that? Kind of, yeah. What did he say? He just was like, your mom, I can't believe she's doing this to me. And I'm like, Jordan's my victim now, is he? She was on the other foot. I just said, your dad made a movie and wrote a book. I'm always going to be respectful about it.

I can do a three-minute fucking TikTok. Yes. And he didn't consult you on writing the book. He didn't consult you on writing on the movie. Right, right. Even though he kind of says he did, but no. And I just said, I'm not doing this to – I'm not going to say anything about your dad that he hasn't said already ten times worse. Right.

Right? So I'm just going to tell my narrative and I'm doing it to help women. And the train has left the station. I'm doing it. Outside of some of the things they changed in the story or the timeline or little scenes that didn't happen, what do you think was the biggest thing about you particularly that, I don't know, was misrepresented in there? Hmm. I mean, honestly, they portrayed her as a young girl who's madly in love, who loves her kids, who's trying to, like, chase this guy's coattails, right? And keep up with him. So, I mean, they just missed the depth of my character.

I mean, clearly who I am really in my authenticity. And I think that they showed me getting very jealous all the time about women. And we fought all the time about women. We really never fought about women. We fought about his drugs. But that probably wouldn't have been as funny. Yeah, to tell the story. I get it.

You know, because it's a lot sadder. It's a lot sadder. Yeah. It's a lot darker. And, you know, Terry Winter writes Jordan in a way that's the way he wrote Tony Soprano. Yes. That's exactly right. I love Terry Winter.

Yeah, the very likable. He writes about a very complex character. Yeah, like you knew Tony Soprano was this narcissistic, philandering, psychopath murderer. Yes, but you rooted for him. But you rooted for him. It's crazy. Right, so Terry Winter has a knack for doing that.

Have you ever talked with him about that? I met Terry once. I met Terry once. I met Terry once. That's where the scene with the straw, with the wine comes from. Wait, that was real? Yeah. That was real. Do you still do that?

No. Okay, that's good. I don't do that anymore. That's kind of funny. It was a phase. Yeah. It was a phase. But did you talk to him about that?

Like, you know, you're making him lovable? Or you didn't really know at that time if you're just discussing- No, but I know I loved The Sopranos. And I knew that about Tony Soprano. God rest James Gandolfini. He was incredible. Incredible actor. So good.

So I know that that's- I didn't know- I know that that's the way he wrote the character. So I'm not surprised at the way Jordan came across. I think part of it is, though, like not all women, but there's a pattern where women at a high level fall in love with two phases of the man, right? They fall in love with the man,

and you can think the more usual traits, ambition, provider, protector, a lot of things you didn't get, by the way, as it would turn out. But they fall in love with that and then they fall in love with the other side of the personality where he shows like the little boy sometimes. Yes, that's a very good point. How do you know that? I've thought about this a little bit. You're so psychological. Yes. That's a very important point because often when I was with Jordan, I would have a lot of empathy for his little boy.

There you go. Yeah. Because that's the thing. Tony Soprano, episode one. Yeah. Look at the ducks. Yes. You know what I mean?

He's like a fucking kid and shit. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. You know what I mean? Yes. He's like a fucking kid in shit. Yeah, yeah. And there was this thing where he could turn on this, and Jim obviously did an amazing job showing this, but he could turn on this rage and this nastiness and this murderous whatever. And then the next minute, you know, want to hand you a few hundred dollar bills and, you know, go make some hot dogs or play with the ducks. And with Jordan, it's kind of like the way they show it in the movie. And I don't know if maybe it even, if you look back on it, if some of this actually felt this way while you were going through it. It's like, he's this crazy psycho macho man. But then, and he's got these horrible traits and addicted to drugs and whatever.

But then he'll do some shit where you're like a little kid and you almost want to take care of him. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's what creates the bond because these abusers aren't bad all the time. No. They're just not. That's the tricky part. That's the tricky part.

It's like they show you the humanity. Yeah, because if they were, you wouldn't be with them. Especially for somebody like me. I mean, clearly I'm highly empathetic. That's why I'm a therapist, right? Or I'd have no patience if i wasn't yeah and i have a lot and so but unfortunately that empathy gets weaponized yeah you know you say you're an introvert by the way like i'd be surprised about that i'm not because to do your job in a way right you have to be the kind of person that was

always kind of watching other people rather than making yourself the middle of things. And you come across that way. Like there's some times today where I got to probe a little more than you would expect, you know, to get you to kind of go there, but that's a really good for what you do. That's an amazing trait to have, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I love people. And I believe, you know, even after everything I've been through and after all the stories I hear all day long from women, which are atrocious, all these Dirty John guys that are just abusing and betraying and financial abuse and sexual addiction.

And if I sat here one day, just invite me to come tell the stories, you'll have the best podcast on the planet because the stories that I hear all day long are atrocious. And what people can do to each other in love. In love. Yeah. Supposedly. Yeah. When they're in love. Right. Air quotes. Yeah. Can be very, very disturbing. And yet, I'm still an optimist because I know that people can heal.

People can heal. Do you think they can change? I think they can change to a point. I do. To a point? Yeah. To a point. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think of Jordan today? Today, him and I really don't have much contact. I mean, I saw him actually two days ago because he was with my daughter. So I bumped into him. We don't have much contact.

No, I don't. We just happened to be at a restaurant in Westport together. And I just quickly said hello to him and walked away because, you know, I don't really have that much to say to him. You know, I just don't. I mean, he's a great dad. He's there for my kids. We get along, you know, when don't really have that much to say to him. You know, I just don't. I mean, he's a great dad. He's there for my kids. We get along, you know, when we see each other. But we're not connected in any way like we used to.

I think me talking about it really created that separation. Yeah, because he didn't like that. Yeah. Do you think, like, I would say when I hear something like the fact that he freaked out on you for, you know, being able to actually tell your side of the story after he put everything public, that there are aspects of him that certainly have not changed. Right. But do you think there are other aspects of him that maybe have for the better? For sure. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. He's happily married to a lovely young woman. He's, like I said, he's great with his kids. But here's the thing. It's like, you know, these sorts of very toxic relationships and they happen all the time. And all we have to do is turn on the news. And I mean, we see them all the time. They're very hard to endure. But for me, it made me really look deep inside of myself. And I took it as an opportunity.

Sometimes I say the wolf was my Buddha. Because if he hadn't cracked me open like that, and I'm not giving him credit for who I am today, but that experience forced me to be deeply reflective and really grow. And so from that, now I have a career where I help hundreds of women every single day get out of these toxic relationships and it's beyond fulfilling. So when you asked me, you know, did I think I was going to help, you know, do this for a living in this capacity? I wish I could tell you I had some grand scheme. Like I was this genius that thought up this Machiavellian plan,

but I didn't. And I offer that to your listeners to kind of trust the process of life, too. Yes. And it just all emerged. I went through that, I moved, the book got written, I went back to school, the movie got made. Like you said, I was silent forever. You know, but then something in me was like, it's time.

And it happened to also probably because we were hearing about narcissism so much in the zeitgeist. So then I wrote my book, Run Like Hell. And so you just never know where life is gonna take you. Yeah, it seems like you are... somebody who you've never had a grand scheme on stuff. Otherwise, maybe you wouldn't have gotten into some of these situations. Correct. Not that I think it's a good thing to have a grand scheme on anything.

No, but you're right. But you're right. Yeah. But what I'm saying, and I mean this as a compliment, is you let life happen to you. And then you're learning from things and then through that creating new opportunities that then puts you in a position for things you never expected to happen to happen it's like i think that's like kind of the beauty of life like yeah people will overuse this phrase where they're like i don't regret anything i've ever done because

it made me who i am today you can abuse abuse that phrase, right? Because there's things you probably would want to take back and things like that. But you can't change the things you've done or the experiences you've had. You can only then try to use the fuel of learning from them and maybe you turn, you know, turning lemons into lemonade. That's right. Kind of like you did. Yeah. Yeah. And it wasn't always easy. And A lot of very tough moments, a lot of tears. You know, I lost my mother to cancer. I'm a cancer survivor. Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah, so, you know, life—

When did you have cancer? I had cancer when I was 39. Oh, wow. Yeah, and then I've had some bouts of it. I've had it more than once. So I've- In the middle of all this. In the middle of all this. Yeah.

So- You're a strong lady. I'm a strong lady. No doubt about that. I'm a strong lady. So life is not easy, but that's why I believe in therapy. If you keep working on yourself, you can build resilience and resources because life is always going to throw stuff at us, no matter who we are. It just, you could walk out of here and get in a car accident. I mean,

it's, that's just the way life is. But my name actually means hope. So I'm just a hopeful person. That's amazing. What's that like though? I mean, you're young, you're 39, you get diagnosed with cancer. Like I can't even fathom that. It was, it was not, it sucked. I mean, you're young. You're 39. You get diagnosed with cancer. I can't even fathom that. It sucked. I mean, it was really, really hard. But again, I had a lot of support. I caught it very early. You're like, I'm going to be good.

That optimism kind of comes in. Yeah. It was scary. It was scary. It was scary. But I've learned that where there's fear, there's transformation. Where there's fear, there's transformation. That's another bar.

Yeah. We got a few bars today. Yeah. Yeah. That's the truth. And so we can't hide from life. We have to approach it. And I think I was lucky enough to have a good enough beginning to give me that solid foundation.

Yeah. A lot of people don't have that. A lot of people don't. How much do you think, that's one of my favorite topics. I think about this all the time because I'm in a different way than you with different life experiences. I like to think like I'm a very empathetic person as well, but I don't like to use that to excuse acts right yeah so i'm like an extreme example i'm not going to empathize with a terrorist for blowing up a building for 100 people correct but what i do try to empathize with is how did they get there where were they from what what was their environment like how did that happen right you know as a therapist and someone who works with people psychologically how much do think – you don't have to put a percentage on it.

I don't want to make it like weird. But like how much do you think it's people are based on their environment molding them versus like the free will of their decisions to get them to where they are? You know, I mean the research says, you know, nature versus nurture, right? So 60-40, you know. But did you see the new show adolescence i've heard about it i haven't seen you'll like it you'll like it you know the kids a 13 year old psychopath his parents are very normal so you know i think that you like biologically you could be born you know and then you mix it with a family and then a culture, right? So it's always multiple causality. It's just not one clear linear thing. It's tough though, too, because I

agree. It's multiple, but it's like, you know, people overuse the line. I say this all the time where they're like, if I were blank, then I would blank. Okay. You don't know. In most scenarios, you don't know how you would handle something. It's very easy to like from your glass house be like, I would definitely be like this. Oh yeah. No, you don't know shit. You don't know until you're in it. But like when I see some of these kids who grow up with nothing and then there's literally no opportunity and then they get taken in and let's call it what it is, groomed this is an extreme example but it happens all the time in this country too yeah yeah they get groomed at age nine or ten or eleven when that kid's you know riding around with a glock at 16 and and shooting indiscriminately out the window again i'm not empathizing with the act but like statistically

i'm like how the fuck was it not gonna get there like what did you expect of course right there's that saying her people her people yes why and that's why I do what I do. And that's why I even come on the podcast, these podcasts, because I believe education is what's going to heal us. Yeah. Right. Education about psychology, education about relationships. It's the only weapon we really have because when I go to my daughter's house now and I see her with her lovely husband, oh, they're 50-50 partners, and they have a beautiful boy and a baby on the way, we broke generational trauma, Jordan and I. Yeah, that's amazing. Right? And that's what it's about. And they have a good relationship with both of you too.

Yes, yes. Which is like... Yes. That's amazing. It's amazing. So that's what it's about, right? She's a more evolved version of me. Her child will hopefully be a more evolved version of her if this world makes it at the rate that it's going. But yeah, that's what we're here for, I guess. When you were doing your PhD, you said you went back at like 38? I went 38, yeah.

So you were doing your PhD like while you were battling cancer too? like 38? I went 38, yeah. So you were doing your PhD like while you were battling cancer too? I think it was right after, yeah. Wow. Yeah, it was right when I went to my master's. I had just, I had had cancer and then I got my master's, yeah. That's amazing. You did that. But so you got into becoming a therapist and you just said a few minutes ago, alluded to it, so I wanted to go there there like the women you ended up helping are women that sometimes have patterns that are very similar to things you went through but then there's also all these unique situations and everything yes you continue to learn a lot more about yourself in the past through these women yeah i mean when i wrote my book run like hell a therapist guide to recognizing escaping and healing from trauma bonds link in description yeah um that was i learned so much more i learned about psychopathy machiavellian

ism i learned about the dark tetrad okay let's break these down psychopathy let's start there yeah so so there's a term called the dark tetrad and it came out in 2002 and so it describes a person that has psychopathy machiavellvellianism, sadism, and narcissism. Right? Great traits. All great traits. Yeah. And so we've seen these individuals.

We've seen them with Jeffrey Epstein, right? They are in the zeitgeist. P. Diddy, Puff Daddy, what do we call him? Sean Combs. And so they have psychopathy, meaning they're beyond exploitative, highly callous, will just use and abuse anybody. They have high stress immunity, like nothing stresses them out, right? They can tolerate anything that you or I couldn't deal with. Then there's narcissism, which is, you know, you're self-absorbed.

You too can exploit people, but it's more about admiration and your image and you can be very grandiose or you can be a vulnerable narcissist and be more neurotic and then there's machiavellianism which nobody really talks about and that's when these people are highly strategic, highly manipulative. Consciously? Consciously. They're planning, right? There's a plan there to, but they have bad intentions.

And then sadism is the worst because that's a person who literally gets pleasure out of seeing the people that they know hurt and suffer. Do you think Jordan had that? Did he get pleasure out of it? No. they know hurt and suffer. Do you think Jordan had that? Did he get pleasure out of making... I was going to say. No, no, no. I didn't see that. No, no, no, no, no. Yeah.

No, no, no. So, but there are people running around in the world. Oh, yeah. Right? Like your shoemaker down the street and your baker that are dark tetrad. And they can hide in plain sight. And they can hide in plain sight. And they can hide in plain sight.

They can put on another, it's their multiple personality. Yeah, they wear the mask of sanity, which was a book by Henry Cleckley, I think, the expert on psychopathy. Yeah, they wear a mask of sanity. And so what happens is that these people end up in homes with children and wives, and that's what I deal with, helping women. I educate them about it.

So you're coming across a lot of different clients who have literally dealt with dark tetrad? Yes. Yeah, dark tetrad, yes. And you're able to see like, oh, my God, very clearly your husband or boyfriend has all these traits. Yes, yes, yes. Now, how hard is it? I mean, I know it's very person to person. Everyone's different.

But how hard is it to not necessarily get them to see what that means, but to get them to see that they are literally experiencing that? Usually, by the time they've gotten to me, they've found me on social media. And they're like, she gets it. Somebody, because usually these women feel very crazy and invalidated because that pathological partner is gaslighting them. Yeah. I didn't do that. You didn't see that. That didn't happen. And then so they just totally feel crazy because they've been invalidated and they've been gaslit and they've been lied to and betrayed and manipulated. And I tell them, no, that did happen. And it's very painful when

it's from somebody that you thought was going to love you. Do you come across people sometimes though that you work with where it's like, maybe some things are just going wrong and they're thinking the worst, but it turns out to be like, oh no, you're not married to a sadist or something. It's just, you don't come across that. I don't come across that. Because like, oh, no, you're not married to a sadist or something. It's just you don't come across that. I don't come across that because, like I said, by the time – That was a quick no. No. By the time they get to me, they know that that's –

because if you go on my Instagram, I talk about Dr. Tedrad all the time. I talk about all these concepts because I'm constantly educating people. Wrong one. Wrong one. Wrong one. That's Jordan's wife. What are you looking at over here, Leslie? Leslie's like, nice. Yeah, no.

But so I talk about it all day long on there, know and i'm really educating all the people um yeah there's now it helps also that you've been made into such a public i mean obviously you've now started to come out yourself but your figure who you are is such a public domain kind of thing exactly exactly so people are like oh she didn't just get educated about it. She's lived through this. So I have street cred and professional cred. Street cred. Yeah. And I imagine you got to have the conversation where you're like, well, a lot of the themes are right, but also here's other things that were happening that the movie doesn't show or the book doesn't talk about. So you have to understand I'm a person outside of

that. I'm a person outside of that. But yeah they and they trust me and they know that i have their best interests at heart and i've been through it and i get it there's nothing like experience experience is the greatest teacher on the planet 100 yeah so i've lived it i get it and i empathize with them and i understand that coercive control is real. Do you think in any of like those dark tetrad? Yes. Let's start with the most, the worst kind of thing. Like, do you think in any of those relationships, there actually is any love, but the person is sick?

So obviously, like, it doesn't manifest, right? But they actually do love them. They could think that they love them. They think they love them. Yeah, they can think that they love them. But the way I describe this person is that they will – I call them a pathological lover in my book. Pathological means mentally unwell. And I say this person will use, harm, exploit, and betray you to get their needs met for money, power, pleasure, and status.

That simple. And that's not right because that's about intention. Yes. I mean, that's like my biggest thing with people. I don't use this to explain away things that people do when it's bad or whatever. Like there has to be a medium there. But my number one thing with people is what are your intentions, right? If you have good intentions and you just like really fucked up, like, all right, well, if this happens seven times, we got a problem.

Right. If it's a pattern, right. Right. But people, we all make mistakes. Of course. Yeah. Because that's one thing about the social media era, especially I feel like is so unfortunate. We assume worst intentions at all times on everything with people yes and i don't think that's fair like i watch people in my business get taken out of context right on 20 second clips every day it happens to me too it does and like you know i'm smaller but i ignore it i wonder if i were like the size of joe rogan or something if i could ignore all this i know know. That's tough. Because like, you'll see, like, like they, they didn't say that. Like I actually saw one today

with Michelle Obama. So like, there's this fucking stupid internet thing where people are like, oh, she's a man. So she literally, so she's talking to another man on a podcast and he's a, and he's a black guy. And she goes, so as a black man you know how does it feel to i don't even remember what they were talking about but people then took that clip and they're like oh she's admitting she's a man and it's like you know i know that's so stupid that's cool it's clickbait yeah that's really really cruel i know well social media is the wild west you know and you have to have thick skin for it. And luckily, I don't give a shit what anybody thinks about me. And I'm older, you know, I'm 57. So I have a developed sense of self. And, and when I get a troll, which I really don't, and the only ones I get are, you know, probably the guys that left Jordan. They're like, you just left him when he lost all his money. And I'm like, I'm not going to explain to this guy my whole history.

I'm just like, I hard it or I just block and delete. There you go. You know, it's not worth it. And then I look, they have one follower. And they've never posted. Jordan might be buying Qatari bot farms. You got to check that out. Or something from the Philippines.

Maybe he's doing that. You know, so it's like, so it's, I think if you're going to put yourself out there, unfortunately, in this world. Yes. I don't agree with it because that's the last thing I would ever do to somebody. But I don't know. The world is just getting meaner and meaner, unfortunately. Yeah. I mean, and you had kids who grew up as, like I did, I guess they're similar ages to me, where, like, they grew up and this started to become a major thing and now it is the thing.

And now they're having kids. So your grandkids are growing up in the world with this and the screen everywhere. or just in general, like, how you can raise kids properly who are growing up with social medias, like, and the internet and constant over-transparency is the norm, like, as a therapist. Like, how do you even go approaching that? I think what you have to do is you have to realize it's here. It's never going away.

And you have to really teach them how to deal with it. You know, who to respond to, who not to respond to, what age you're to really teach them how to deal with it you know who to respond to who not to respond to what age you're going to let them on i mean there should be lessons in school now about social media right and how and how do we deal with it it's not going away you know i mean ai too right but listen when you think about it the the radio, the TV, the computer, we're like, these things are going to destroy the world. We're still here. That's a great point. I think we have to also just learn how to deal with these mediums.

I mean, I use Claude, which is my chat GPT person, nonstop. You call him a person. Oh, yeah. I'm always like, thank you so much, Claude. You're the best. You see, that's using millions of dollars of computational. It's like saying please and thank you now. They're like, don't do that.

Oh, really? Oh, yeah. Sam Altman came out the other day. Thank you. So I won't do that. Yeah. I just think I'm being nice. Well, my son told me to do it because one day they're going to take over.

Be very nice. Don't forget about it. It's like when you look at the kid and you're like, he'll be the school shooter. I want to make him my best friend. Right. You make the AI your best friend. That's right. You make the AI your best friend.

But yeah, I just think you have to educate. I think you have to educate these kids about how to use it. It's hard, though, because you can't helicopter kids at all times. No, no, no. You don't know what they're clicking. You don't know. And that's where you have to have a really great relationship with your children.

Yeah. That they're going to come to you when things go bad because they have to have their own experiences in the real world. That's how they're going to learn, right? And as parents, we can't freak out, you know, when they learn the hard way because we have to give our children the chance

to have optimal frustration. Everybody wants to, like, dive in and save them. Don't do that. Agreed on that. Yeah. You can't dive in and save them. You can't dive in and save them. It's just they're dealing with stakes.

Like we have more resources now than we did 40 years ago, right? So it should be easier to parent. But in a lot of ways with the resources we have, the price we pay is that there's a constant influx of things. Yeah, that aren't you. That aren't them. So like for example, the thing so many people worry about is just in human nature is what other people think of them. If you can now exacerbate that to some 12-year-old gets caught up on something on the internet their parent doesn't know about and now they're worried that you know a million people are going to see this and these situations

happen yeah yeah the kids off themselves i just had a guy yes yes yes i'm not as well worse to that but yes i've heard that yeah but it's hard because it's like you can do everything right as a parent and then you know the one minute you're not watching them yes the phone it you know i i was an idiot when i was 20 what do you think i was when i was 12 right oh right we're we're beyond clueless we're beyond clueless but that's where you know you and when you watch adolescence you'll you'll see it you know the kid was in his room a lot alone by himself up all night like that can't happen't happen. You know, turn off the internet, phones get taken away. You also have to have boundaries

with your children and really parent. Whether it's social media, whether it's food, whether it's who they're hanging out with, whether it's how late they're staying out. You know, it's hard to raise a child. I remember I said to my son once,

I said, I love you enough for you to hate me. I said, I love you enough for you to hate me i said i love you enough for you because i was being tough with him that took a minute that's okay no and i said that literally on my knees with tears coming down my eyes when he was a teenager and like just crazy i was like no i hate you know like, I love you enough for you to hate me. That's pretty powerful. I'd remember that one. Yeah. Well, good, because you're going to be a parent maybe one day.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I think about it a lot, like how you would handle certain things. But I think a lot of it is you, like you were saying on some other things in this conversation, like you got to be there, you got to experience it, and you deal with it how you deal with it that's right that's right but there's just like you know it's also forget kids just everyone like social media and the digital digitalization and everything nuts it affects and then the pandemic we've talked about this a ton but like it affects

communication so much oh sure sure sure you're dealing with that all the time where you know how do you even break down a relationship before you get to some of the awful shit you deal with where it's like you know someone's got their head buried in the phone all the time yes yes so you don't even know what they're thinking you don't you don't i mean i'm not a digital native right so i kind of am blessed in that way yeah that for the first 31 years of my life, it wasn't around. Yeah.

It didn't really, we only started to email when I was like 31. Holy shit. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Isn't that crazy? Yeah.

So I just, so I've learned as I've gone, I guess. And I was older. I had a developed brain. It was okay. Yeah. But no, it's certainly very challenging.

You do make a good point that at every point in human history, whatever the new technology was going all the way back to the fucking wheel. People are like, this is going to kill us. The cars. Yeah. Right. I don't like to get, I guess, complacent with that and be like, that means we'll automatically be okay. You shouldn't be complacent about it. But as an optimist, I'm an optimist myself, it does give me hope. They're like, we'll figure be okay you shouldn't be complacent about it but it does as an optimist i'm an optimist myself it does give me hope they're like we'll figure this out you know like

we got the nuke 85 years ago and 80 years ago whatever it was and we haven't blown each other up yet not right not yet so maybe we'll figure out how to not let ai run us all or social media right everyone want to kill themselves. Yeah. And I mean, listen, look at this. We wouldn't even know each other if it wasn't for social media. Right? I get to help so many people and I use my social media platform for such a good reason, for such a good cause.

And so just like anything in life, it's a paradox. Yes. And we have to hold the tension of the paradoxes of life. Yes. Take the good with the bad. And try to maximize and improve. But I do really hear what you're saying about the young children and the teenagers especially, those tweens. That's a very challenging time.

Yes. And... So many, I mean, you got all the hormones firing. Oh, yeah. There's so many things changing. Yeah, and we're so hyper aware of criticism and being accepted. Yes. So that's heightened at that time in the development of our brain.

Yes. So it's very, very hard then for them to manage social media. I mean, middle school was the worst time of my life. Oh, I'll bet. Yeah. I hated middle school. And everyone's showing their perfect life and how everything's filtered and looks this way or that way. And it's like people don't really look like that, man.

You know what I mean? Like you have this idea in your head that, you know, the hottest girl you know without makeup on looks incredible. And it's like, no. No. Everyone's got their moments. You know what I mean? That's right. And we're all human.

We're all messy humans, as I say. Yes. No. Everyone's got their moments. You know what I mean? That's right. And we're all human. We're all raw, messy humans, as I say. Yes. Yes. But looking back on your first marriage, because you found love in your second one, you kept on saying you were madly in love with Jordan, and that's what kind of blinded you with that. But looking back on it, do you think there was actually real love there? Yes. Yes. Why? For me. For you? Yeah. You

don't think he loved you? I think he did in his own way. Yeah. But maybe not the way I would define love. Because I don't think that love means that you have power and control over somebody. What do you think love is? So I think that love is the quality of connection that you have with the person, the trust, the respect, the tenderness, the vulnerability, the kindness, the compassion, and the messiness of it, right? Because we know love is messy. But I think there's a very important second component, and that's giving somebody the space to be who they are. Whether it's a lover, whether it's a child, whether it's a friend, we have a hard time

with that in life. Because we want them to be who we want them to be. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great, I like how you put that. I've studied a little bit. Yeah, I think so.

I've been through a little bit too. I think I, yeah, yeah. I've made relationships my life's work. Yeah. Well, that's awesome. It's awesome that you put it all to work and you can use the platform that was also like kind of generated in the last decade or so with this movie to do a lot of good and help people and kind of like scratch your own itch along the way. That's amazing. So it's been a lot of fun talking with you. Oh, it's been so great. And I can tell

you are very empathetic. Thank you. You know what? Honestly, to do this job, I don't, especially talking long form with people, I don't know how you can't be. Right. You know what I mean? Right. You talk with people all day, all the time. Yes, you have to be. You have to be.

Even if you didn't have it, and I think I did, you're going to develop it. That's why it's funny. We were talking about my friend Matt Cox. Yes. I saw you when I did a show with him. And it's like he's so hard on himself, righteously so, because all the shit he's done. But I'm like, Matt, for you, I know you think you don't care about stuff, but you've obviously developed something. Because for you to be able to talk to people as much as you do and really get to the core, because he really does with some of the ones I listen to, of what they're about.

I'm like, there's something good that came out of all this for you. That's right. You know? That's right. See, people can change. Yeah, a little bit. Well, thank you for having me. Thank you so much.

We'll have the link to your book down below as well as the link to your Instagram if people want to follow. And if you're dating someone who's a part of the Dark Tetris or – Dark Tetrad. Dark Tetrad, Tetris, same thing. You know, maybe you should hit up Dr. Ney here. She'll help you out. Okay. Thank you so much.

Thank you, guys. All right, everybody else, you know what it is. Give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace. Thank you guys for watching the episode. If you haven't already, please hit that subscribe button

and smash that like button on the video. They're both a huge, huge help. And if you would like to follow me on Instagram and X, those links are in my description below.