Julian Dorey Podcast - #306 - Hunting P*dos, America’s Most Corrupt Mayor & Scammer Underworld | Tommy G & Punchmade Dev

Episode Date: May 30, 2025

PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/JulianDorey (***TIMESTAMPS in Description Below) ~ Tommy G is a Documentarian, Journalist, Entertainer & YouTuber. His Channel (“Tommy G”) has amassed over 2 Million Subscribers to date. Punchmade Dev is an American rapper and songwriter based in Lexington, Kentucky. TOMMY & PUNCHMADE DEV'S LINKS: Tommy G YouTube: ​​https://www.youtube.com/@TommyGMcGee Punchmade Dev YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdcmnkk8bZx40DKpQ-ZeCOw FOLLOW JULIAN DOREY INSTAGRAM (Podcast): https://www.instagram.com/juliandoreypodcast/ INSTAGRAM (Personal): https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey/ X: https://twitter.com/julianddorey JULIAN YT CHANNELS - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Clips YT: https://www.youtube.com/@juliandoreyclips - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Daily YT: https://www.youtube.com/@JulianDoreyDaily - SUBSCRIBE to Best of JDP: https://www.youtube.com/@bestofJDP ****TIMESTAMPS**** 00:00 - Jesus, Tommy G, NY Conspiracies 09:11 - Cops Chase, Dev Scammer, Cash App 16:03 - Theft, Concealed Carry, Almost Arrested 24:32 - Base Jumping Case, Robbery 31:03 - 2K Scams, Catfishing 38:29 - Chris Hansen & Hunting P*dos 55:40 - Dev tells his shooting story 01:04:47 - Rapping, Ouija Board, Faith 01:15:11 - Culture, Family, Moving 01:33:30 - Hood Videos, Tommy G 01:38:23 - Corrupt Mayor, Killers 01:50:31 - Matt Cox, Narcissism, Criminal Mind 01:59:11 - Suffering, Young Dolph 02:05:51 - Mexican Gangs, Drug Culture, Dev's Goals 02:10:30 - Family Reaction, Buckingham 02:15:04 - Investigative, Scientology, Truman Show 02:27:57 - Dev's 10-Year Plan CREDITS: - Host, Editor & Producer: Julian Dorey - In-Studio Producer: Alessi Allaman - https://www.youtube.com/@UCyLKzv5fKxGmVQg3cMJJzyQ Julian Dorey Podcast Episode 306 - Tommy G & Punch Made Dev Music by Artlist.io Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five star review. They're both a huge huge help. Thank you. So you found Jesus? Yes, I did. Is that what I'm hearing? I've been found him.

Where'd you find him? When I was born. When you were born? Yeah. So you were believing in Jesus like when you were in high school and everything? Yeah. So you were believing in Jesus like when you were in high school and everything? Yeah. Is that what I'm hearing? I've been found them. Where'd you find them? When I was born. When you were born?

Yeah. So you were believing in Jesus like when you were in high school and everything? Yeah, 100%. Punch Made Dev finding Christianity and Catholicism is the headline that we didn't expect this year. No, when I think of some of the things that you do, I don't necessarily associate that with Jesus, but maybe you can convince me today. all see it. We do all sin. Yeah, but you kind of like knowingly do it. Yeah, that'll make any different from anybody doing it behind closed doors. At least I'm honest. Yeah, but like do you go to confession and say you're not going to do it again? No,

I just say help me find another way. Help you find another way. You call them father? You call the guy father? Yeah, heavenly father, yeah. Can you turn that mic to you just a little bit? Yeah, my bad. Tilt it, you're good. Is that good? Yeah, that's good.

Okay, I can hear myself. You're good now. So you go into confession and you're like, just help me find another way to make money and at some point Jesus will show you another way. Yeah, or maybe he'll just take it all away from me and then I gotta figure it out. So you're open to being knocked down a peg? Yeah, it's happened a couple times. How recently?

No, not recent at all. You're good now? Yeah, I'm good now. You know you're doing. Probably like right after high school. I haven't been, yeah. I'm good now. Okay.

Alright, we'll get into it today because this was Tommy's idea. He's like, you gotta talk to PunchMate Dev. Talk about scamming. Let's do it. Did a bunch of videos back in the day. Tommy, welcome back as always, brother. It's good to have you. Good to see you.

What are you doing in town? We're doing a profile piece on the New York drivers again. And when I realized because you gotta ask yourself sometimes why do a sequel? It's only if you think you can make it better than the first one. And I realize there's so much of the driving world we didn't get into from the chop shops to the rental car places,

how these guys are getting their hands on different high level vehicles on a regular basis. Last night about 1 a.m. in a hospital parking lot, we were talking to some strikers that had a smashing windshield of a Hellcat and they were explaining their process and I think they're filming missions and we'll see if we get that footage.

But I'm always fascinated by the driving outlaws of New York and we went about, well you went faster than I did because you were in New York recently. Oh you were driving with them. They went about 120 miles an hour weaving through. He said, he said I want it because I said I don't want to do this you know I have a family back home this is too much he said one minute on the clock like okay I can handle one minute I did maybe three four minutes

before I was just like okay I got the idea but it was it's like moving through the matrix with these guys yeah it feels like a rollercoaster yeah but I like it though you like it yeah you're into the thrills for sure. He does not get scared in the car. I'm the guy that's kind of clenching a little bit and I'm like, okay, okay. Like I feel my legs flexing against the... You went in box. I wasn't as bad as M box. Yeah. M box is a whiner. He was a whiner. Yeah. Your video with license, who's one of the drivers we were profiling the wait license He wasn't here with me. No, right. He's a new one that emerged from the squeeze team

What's the last time you did one? I did one with them. We recorded that was wild We recorded that at the end of September. I put it out like a month later with the squeeze team Yeah, okay It was like it was like the swim team the swim the swim team not squeeze. They're kind of rivals So that's like bloods and crevices. Yeah squeeze is the one above Swim team's number two within squeeze number one, bro When I brought up squeeze you could hear a fucking pin drop in here They just all looked at me like behind their masks and everything. I was like, okay

All right, it's cuz he's the best driver him license everybody is squee daddy. Don't forget daddy money Oh, yeah, DD money how and we're talking about squeeze bends for people out there He was went pretty viral last year on streaming and everything with that with some of the driving he did is he still Locked up or like what's what's the deal? No, he's been out. He's been out. Yeah, he's out So he's back doing his thing. Yeah, I don't think he ever got locked up His team likes to have a little shadow of mystery. It's not quite clear exactly how that story's developed. Some people say he's incarcerated. Other people say he's just laying low and... Yeah, he's laying low right now. Okay. Yeah. Interesting guy. I mean, there's something,

like when I talk with those guys, what was so... And now I'm talking about the swim team guys, because obviously they do the same thing. What's so interesting to me is that Outside of the driving they're the most normal relaxed laid-back dudes Like a lot of them don't even drink or smoke or anything like they don't do anything else Yeah, a lot of them don't drink or smoke. I wouldn't say the most laid-back, but yeah, they don't drink or smoke But the ones that were in here we had like five. Oh the swim team. Yeah Yeah, I don't know. No, I'm not gonna talk about the squeeze guys I can't speak to that.

But the swim guys are so laid back. I'm like, but you do this, you do this like one thing that's... Are you crushing your bills? Defeating your monthly payments. Sounds like you're at the top of your financial game. Rise to it with the BMO Eclipse Rise Visa Card. The credit card that rewards your good financial habits.

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Visit your local Mitsubishi dealer today or see mitsubishimotors.ca for details. Conditions apply. Kind of fucking crazy. I mean, they're incredible drivers. I will give them that. Like when you watch these videos, they are unbelievable drivers, but they're still doing it on roads with little old ladies driving and shit. You know what I mean?

All it takes is just one lady not looking and it's over with. Yeah. And then that's being, even one little glancing off someone's car. That could be going out, getting hit by a flatbed. Or a big ass pothole. Yeah. Oh my God. I thought that was some of your best work, that video.

Obviously it was like the biggest video you ever did and you were filming that when we first met. But I thought like from the perspective of the questions you asked them, the moral quandaries, you kind of went back and forth with it. It was so well done because on one hand it's amazing they've never crashed and on the other hand it's just a matter of time. That's part of the conspiracy. Yeah, they might have crashed and not said

nothing. I heard the swim team be crashing and not saying nothing. I'm not calling out the swim team in particular, but that was part of the conspiracy that we covered in this part too is that crashes have been covered up because there are impressionable people on the internet watching that think I could go do this right now not knowing that there's a lot of crashes, a lot of people can get hurt and that actually within the New York driving community they were doxing each other. So if I expose your crash, you would dox my address until... So it was getting pretty serious. Exposing crashes? Yes. Yes, like career ending, huh? There's apparently a guy... There's a guy that Squeeze Benz filmed with a lot that goes by Sean Sean, and he called me to let me know that there's some serious doxing going on, but then I found

out this guy might dox people too, so I don't know. It's a lot of unusual, shy-sty, supporting the shy-sty mask. Doxing's fucked up. Yeah. I'm not on the doxing stuff, but that's interesting that there's been crashes, because you would think you would hear about that seeing the speeds that they're going at. I would imagine, at least statistically, some of these crashes got to be happening where they're decelerating to like 120.

And you would think that would be like news, because that means they're going like 180 or 160 or whatever it is. But I haven't heard anything like that. It might be time to get them back in here though. They must be getting away from the scene, because don't you think if you were a newscaster whatever it is. But I haven't heard anything like that. It might be time to get them back in here though. Talk about it. They must be getting away from the scene because don't you think if you were a newscaster and there was a big YouTube driver that was showing, driving, kind of promoting it and it happened you'd like, you want to call it out right away? So I don't know where the stories have

gone or how they got hushed up exactly, but it's not surprising that people are crashing when they're moving like that. I mean, there was a few times where they were going with cars that were parallel to each other and still finding the gap in between at a very high rate of speed that made me uncomfortable. It's scary. So who approached you to do the follow-up? I saw this kid licensed coming out of nowhere

and just doing incredible things. And I saw your video with license and Tommy's just scouting all the drivers like he looks good. He's next. And I knew that there was so much more. Cause if you really look, I actually am not, I'm not that proud of the piece. I thought the questions were good, but as far as what we could have gotten into, most of it was almost like a podcast in a car, but we didn't get to really see the chop shops that they're going to all the, who, how are they getting a Lamborghini today, a BMW tomorrow? How are they even having access to this? So getting more of the behind the

scenes structure, that to me was the intriguing part. Once I knew I had the contacts to bring me in, it's, you know, that's giddy up. How have they been with you going back and forth on like, you know, asking them about some of the crash coverups and stuff like that. They were open about it. They were open about it. What'd they say? There is coverups and that I don't think it I don't think I think we should be open with

it because I think license one of the things he did was he posted his own crash. I think he has he's had one crash and he posted it and took it like a man. Which I think is that's like that's like being a UFC fighter. It wasn't his fault. It wasn't his fault. It wasn't his fault. No, he was driving somebody rammed into him and he was blind in his eye the other person I was driving. Oh, it was a blind person. He wasn't even supposed to be driving with him anyway He's blind on one side so it wasn't even his fault license a good driver I sleep in the car when he cuts you sleep in the car with a guy. Yeah

You're built different Yeah, when did you first meet him? You sleep in the car with him. I slept with a guy, yeah. You're built different. He's good. Yeah. When did you first meet him? Maybe like two months ago. We first did our video. Yeah. What was your video? We got chased by the police.

You got chased? Yeah. All right, please do tell. Yeah, so we was at a Home Depot, and then we thought it was a cop car. That's how it starts, man, Home Depot. The Home Depot. We thought it was a cop car that pulled up. And then we did the whole, we thought it was a cop car. That's how it starts man, Home Depot. Yeah, the Home Depot. We thought it was a cop car that pulled up and then we did the whole, we thought it was

police and everything. We got away and then like a month later, like some other YouTuber was in a fake cop car chasing us. Yeah. It was a YouTuber? Yeah, it was a YouTuber, but we had no clue. Who's that? I think his name's Sean Sean.

That's Sean Sean? It's the same guy? Yeah, I think so. I think so. So he had intel that you guys were gonna be there or something. I guess he put an air tag in somebody's car or something. Yeah. This is kind of a building seven of the car community. That didn't take long. Jesus Christ. I look at you though Devon. I'm like how are you not in jail? Not for the car stuff. Yeah. But for everything else because here's this guy

who you go out there, you show people how to scam, you teach courses on how to scam. You use- Okay, yeah, bye. If you've seen Tommy G's video, the reason I was teaching it and everything is to prevent somebody else from getting scammed. It was a community service kind of thing.

Yeah, I'm a fraud prevention type of guy. You're a fraud prevention guy. But you were a fraud not prevention guy to start off. Maybe possibly a super long time ago before I was even punch made dev. Before you were punch made dev? Yeah. What were you then? Just dev?

Yeah, just dev. Just dev. Yeah. All right, so in all seriousness, without revealing, I guess, incriminating exact details or anything like approximately how old were you when you were like, ooh, this internet thing, I can scam some people. Well, what type of scamming? Because there's like, or just in general. Because there's petty-

Let's go in general, but go as broad as you want. So when I was super young, I was doing just petty stuff. Like you know, I'll give you this, if you give me that. And then I just won't give him nothing. That was like when I was on 2K. So I was like selling like 2K accounts. Oh, you were selling 2K accounts? Yeah, that had like 99 overalls

and like all the badges and stuff. So you're like Venmo me 100 bucks and I'll give you my whatever? I'll give you this account, yeah, and then just run off. Did you get a rush from that? Maybe, I don't know know it was a long time ago. I was like 16. Okay, and then when the PS 5s came out I Seen people was a fake selling PS 5s So I think people were doing that too around that time and then wait, how'd you do this?

So how did you fake sell PS 5s allegedly? Hi, I mean you would just post it on Twitter and then be like, alright I'm gonna give one away and they have a whole bunch of people retweet it and then people hit you up and be like You have any more in the back? Yeah, I got it for 400 500 and you gotta send me the money first Yeah, and I'll ship it out in Bitcoin, right? Actually not back in the day wasn't Bitcoin. It's cash out So when I still was able to use cash out cash up is burnt now though. It's burnt.. It's when I still was able to use Cash App. Cash App's burnt now though. It's burnt? How's it burnt? It's burnt as in just trying to receive a bunch of payments from multiple people.

You can still do stuff on Cash App. You can still make money for sure. You can do transfers and stuff on there. The IRS is tracking it basically. Yeah, but just pay your taxes and you're good. I pay all my taxes on every single dollar I make. That's good. Okay. So there's something law abiding in you. No, he's a contributing member of society. Yeah, I pay a lot in taxes. The reason your roads are paved outside of the

studio because of punch made though. Yeah, I'm Robin Hood. I'm Robin. Define Robin Hood. Somebody who, what did we say in the video that takes from the rich and gives it a poor yet as me. I think you said you take from the poor and I'm rich. That's me. So you start with basic stuff and then when you're doing the PS five thing, by the way, did you at least hit them with the well, you you gotta pay me half now and half comes later so they feel like there's something on the other end? Or you just said, nah, I need it all up front? It's all up front and somebody else gonna buy it.

And they would just do it? What do you think makes people just trust like that? Well, it was when they first came out, so I feel like people were just thirsty. They're like, okay, he has a PS5, I need this. So yeah, just take the risk. But did anyone know who you were, or were you just behind them? Nah, I was just, okay, he has a PS5, I need this. So yeah, just take the risk. But did anyone like know who you were, or were you just behind like the account?

Nah, I was just, yeah, yeah. What was your profile picture with this account? Was it like a bunny or like a fake, like an animal? Probably like a stack of money or some PS5s. Trust me. Yeah. Cause I kind of wonder like if people could, like if it happens to enough, even back then,

if it happens to enough people, if people get in touch like, Oh, is this guy whatever. And then they could corner you or like report you and obviously they never did. No, but if they do report you, it's like, Oh no, I feel like I think I've seen something and only like 8% people who do like scams and fraud get caught. I believe it's kind of difficult to chase them down. These fraudsters. I mean, hopefully they catch them all though. Oh, you want them to be all caught.

Yeah. I'm the fraud prevention guy. That's fucked up. Because now you're out of the game. Yeah, I've been out of the game. I was in the game when I was like a teenager, when I was a minor. Now when you say you're out of the game, is that kind of like when a mob boss says he's out of the game because he's out of jail, but he's kind of still meeting with people at

the back of the restaurant with a cigar, you know, still dipping the toe in? Mafia, you're the mob boss says he's out of the game because he's out of jail But he's kind of still meeting with people at the back of the restaurant with a cigar, you know You're the mob guys mafia. You're the mob boss Fuck you Alessi He's mafia. I walked into that so you're out Totally. Yeah, I mean I never really was in but yeah, but you just said you were in no, I said I was doing petty stuff But that's but that's not really scamming like okay that is scamming. All right, but I wasn was doing petty stuff. But that's not really scamming. That is scamming. But I wasn't doing fraud or nothing. Define fraud.

Fraud is like bank fraud, wire fraud. It's crazy stuff. I would never do something like that. You'd never do that? Too much. Would you know how to do that if you needed to? Yeah, yeah. I would know how.

I only know how to teach people how to avoid it. Right. So you're like a teacher in the worst way where it's like, well, you haven't done it before but you can just show people how to do it. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, Tommy G gave me a good platform with the video and I got to use it for good. Teach people how to not get, you know. Were those actually reenactments on there?

Yeah, everything was reenactments on there yeah everything was really he paused everything everything we would never do real crimes and show somebody's face you see you know that's true those banks looked really real though man I gotta tell you yeah they got good pure spaces that you can run out spaces yeah you can rent out banks and you made it look like a bank in there yeah mmm yeah okay so you're out of the game. Have you ever scammed? No never never done anything never So what's the worst thing you ever did the worst thing I ever did? You definitely stole some I don't think anyone's ever asked me that before And if massage listing this would be good time. Yeah, I actually I actually have to think about that. What's the worst thing ever did?

I've not stolen anything before there's no way you as a kid. You definitely snuck some of your pocket I've been in the presence of You talking about like from stores. Yeah Just like I know you stole something before like when you was a kid or something just slipped in here from a store or anybody Anything from from other people I'm sure I did as a kid would you steal? I can't remember but I'm sure I did but like from a store never done that now. I've been there when my friends do it And they break you off. That's how no no no Usually it's like just getting fucking food or something. It's stupid. I was like what the fuck are you doing?

You know like I'd be the one driving the car Yeah, you're gonna get arrested for 20 bucks. Thanks, but nothing nothing like that. No Okay, I never like walked into a store and did anything like that. I was a good boy. What'd you say there was a strong internal voice that said I'm just, I'm not gonna do that? I'm one of those guys, like I'm such a believer in karma, which obviously doesn't mean like I don't

still make mistakes and stuff. But I'm like the dude that like, you know, when you'll throw a wrapper away after you're done with it and you'll get in the trash can and as you're on the street and you continue to turn and you realize the wrapper went in there but the one little piece on the edge like fell out and went to the back. I'll take like two steps and be like, fuck I gotta put that in the trash. Just because it's like little like this little like OCD Karma things for me there.

Yeah, I feel like that too sometimes. Yeah. You do? Yeah, I do. That's why you help people prevent fraud now. Yeah, I feel like that too sometimes. Yeah. You do? Yeah, I do. That's why you help people prevent fraud now? Yeah. Always, not now.

Always have. Always have. In the beginning, yeah. So like when you were 16, what were you doing to help people not do fraud? Teaching them a lesson. You can't trust everybody. Lesson learned. I don't do that no more.

I do good business with everybody. Do you ever have the cops reach out to you or anyone reach out to you and say, we're investigating you? People pretend to be cops and message me. They try to blackmail me. They be like, yeah, send 10,000 to this Bitcoin wallet or we're investing, just some bullshit like that. We're investigating you.

We will get you arrested or something. And you're like, I know this game better than you, pal. Yeah, I'm not worried. I don't do nothing. Come arrest me then. I would have been arrested if I was actually doing That's what I'm saying. You got like fucking you got more ice on you than the entire net worth of this room So you're doing okay? Yeah, that is real, right? No, no, no, that's not real. Chuck E cheese jewelry It's Chuck E cheese short. Yeah, I got wanted out of a machine you did. Mm-hmm. That doesn't look like it's a machine

Looks good. It looks good. Appreciate it. Do we have the diamond tester? Let's do that You tested that before you know, I never I I called my guy that called Johnny Daniel No, I called them tracks NYC tracks NYC shout tracks NYC. I called him and his guy said it looks real Looks real look still gotta get the tester, huh? Okay. Yeah. Maybe we can do that later. We should. It does look real. Like, I mean, not that I would like be the best guy

to judge that, but. You got some jewelry. That shit's blingin'. Yeah, I've had this since I was like. Is that a pendant too? Yeah, it's a pendant. I can't see, cause the mic. Okay, that's nice.

Yeah, just basic ass family name. What is it? Saint Anthony, family name. Okay. What has he done for you? He finds shit, man. When it's lost, apparently that's what they tell me. But my great grandfather's name was Anthony and then my dad's middle name is Anthony.

So that's really that. But I don't have anything like that. We've got to get you a punch made chain. Yeah, a punch made chain. You got your own brand now? Yeah. How have I not gotten a punch made chain at this point? You do need a punch your own brand now? Yeah. How have I not gotten a PunchMade chain at this point? You do need a PunchMade chain, huh?

Yeah. But I got to ask you, like how walking around, you're a very visible person. Brandon Buckingham was with him recently. He said, I've never seen anyone get recognized so much as when I'm with PunchMade Dev. How do you handle that from a security standpoint, having – I don't know if that's worth $0 or a million dollars or somewhere in between, but how do you handle that? I mean, you just got to know how you're moving. Everywhere else other than this state, I have my concealed carry, so I'm not really too worried.

But here, somebody else around me will have something that'll protect everybody if needed. But you're a very calculated, mindful person, so you always know how to approach an environment and have kind of the trump card. Definitely. Just got to know your area, know where you're going, know who you're with, know what they know. So you do have a concealed carry though, you said? Yeah, I got three of them.

You got three of them? Florida, Kentucky, and Illinois. No shit. How does that work, like if you go, hold on, Florida's obviously way out there, so if you go to go from Illinois to Florida, you have to like register ahead of time your weapon that you're bringing in? How does that work? I mean the states, they have it, I mean, really the only states that is annoying is like the

ones around here up north in Cali, but like all the ones in the middle, I'm pretty sure if you just like put it in the trunk and unload it and you'll be good. I mean, if you're just passing through then you're good. You should be for the most part, but I got arrested in Chicago. How? Yeah, for having a fight. It was before I had the Illinois concealed carry and I was passing through and I had my Kentucky win and it just didn't care.

And isn't that like a felony charge though? Yeah, no, yeah, but it got all dismissed. It got dismissed. Because I had my Kentucky concealed carry and I told him I was peacefully passing There's a law called peacefully passing that I already they're like nothing to see here kids. We're good Yeah, I already knew about but they came to the car with the guns drawn and everything. Oh, they were drawn Yeah, they're already drawn and then he was like How do they know you had a gun? He didn't and he just assumed so So you fit the profile of the usual suspects?

Yes. That's why. Now I know. So yeah, he just, yeah, he told me to run out the window and he was screaming, like put your hands on the steering wheel. And he was like, do you do drugs? He was like, no. He's like, so you don't smoke?

There's no weed or anything in here? I was like, no. He's like, do you drink? I was like, no. He's like, do you have a gun? And before I could even answer, he just said, step out the vehicle. He reached in, unlocked my door, and then started pulling me out. And then they were searching, and they found the gun.

And I told them I had my concealed carry, and it was on the dashboard, and they're acting like they couldn't find it. And then they seen it. And then the other cop was like, all right, well, should we let him go now? And he was like, no. So they brought you in, but they later dismissed it. And then he was like, yeah, they dismissed it. And he was taunting me. He was like, oh, you're you're a black disciple. You're a BD. Yeah, I'm not a disciple

Yeah, I'm never from Chicago. You're an idiot from Kentucky. I don't even know what a black disciple Have you never listened to the chief keeps song? I'm BD on lamb rod. I mean I've probably heard it but I never got the context Talking at the barbershop chief keep this that's gonna Keith. See, that's going to be your new job. You get the context of all these songs. You know. That's right. Were you shitting yourself? How long ago was that when that happened?

That was like last year, around this time last year kind of. Were you shitting yourself when he reached in there? When he found the gun? No, I already knew it was coming. But yeah. You just like, just look right there. Yeah. I mean, I knew I was going to have a lawyer and everything. I just didn't know how the bond process is going to work, but there like just look right there. Yeah, I mean I knew I was gonna have a lawyer and everything

I just didn't know how the bond process is gonna work, but there's no bond Illinois. There's no bond in Illinois No, either you get out you don't Yeah, I got out so I was sitting in there. They brought me they put me in a cell by myself When nobody in there for like six hours, and then they finally let me out. Yeah, it was terrible When did it get dismissed? Later, I assume. Yeah, like a month later. Did you go to Cook County Jail?

Yeah, Cook County. How bad was it? It wasn't bad. I was just in like the Holden part. So I wasn't in like County, like the Holden cells. I wasn't in like the big jail. Did they feed you in those six hours? Nah, but they, well they did.

I had to ask for it though. They just gave me like some slices of bread Yes, a loaf of bread. Could you imagine having to eat the food in jail or prison? I've heard from guys that I've had in the ad and maybe people out there in the comments who have experienced can answer this a little better, but Fed is way better than stay here It's all I don't know why it's backwards. Like, prison's better than county too. Like, you know, you're supposed to be innocent so you're proven guilty, but the people who are

supposed to be innocent are living way worse than the people in prison. Like, people in prison got TVs, phones, clothes. And then you take a story like a guy like CTS Lil Wick, he's the white rapper from St. Louis that beat the murder case. Is that yee yee guy? Yee yee! Oh, that's not yee yee guy. He got no country in him, he's the white rapper from St. Louis that beat the murder case. Is that Yee Yee guy? Yee Yee!

Oh, that's not Yee Yee guy. He got no country in him. He's all street. But he sat in jail for over a year and he eventually came out that he killed someone in self-defense. He was completely cleared, good to go. But yeah, he still spent a year of his life locked up. And it wasn't like when he got out, oh, you know, maybe you missed out on a rap deal or you couldn't make money for your family. There was no restitution.

It seems a little strange. Actually, I have an ongoing court case. You do? Yes. Is this the ball sack thing? No, this is the base jumper. So we were with guys in Detroit and we were climbing to the top of buildings so they could jump off them with a parachute and we got caught. The third building that we went to, I hope this gets released after the court's over,

but we got caught. We got a police drone on us. The entire shift was out and they were gonna jump anyways and then they made a deal with the cops. Hey, pinky promise, we don't jump. We don't go to jail. Boom. So we got down, the cops were pretty cool about it.

Get a ticket, misdemeanor, they said breaking and entering, which we didn't break and enter anything. We's an opening that we got into. Did you tell them you were a journalist? Yeah. Interesting. We have to travel. So they're like, okay, you can't travel. You can't talk to each other. You have to write a letter to the judge to go to any state outside of Wisconsin. I can only talk to Miguel and Keegan for business purposes. And it just is- Oh, because they were with you, they got charged too.

Oh. So, but how do you, for a misdemeanor too, how are you putting all these, you can't have a firearm, you can't travel out of the state. One, you don't even know if I'm guilty and two, it's a misdemeanor. So how are you going to have, how can you restrict me that much? It just seems like overreach. Yeah. I actually think about this one a lot, like the process before adjudication or whatever.

It's one of those things where it is problematic across the board. Everything you raise right there is a prime example, but it's also, what's the alternative? How do you fix it? It's one of those where I can point out the problem, but I don't know what the solution is because yours doesn't really matter. It's a fucking misdemeanor at a place. It's going to end up getting dismissed obviously. But you know, then you have someone who's in there for murder and maybe they did do it. You find out later they didn't. But like the one you bring up about your buddy in St. Louis, it's like the potential loss of income and everything, if he's in there a year and then comes out, should taxpayer money compensate him something for

that? There might be a conversation to be had there, but it's also like you have to let the process play out. It just sucks if you get caught for something or accused of something, I should say. I think the biggest solution that's out there is increased government efficiency because the Zoom meeting, okay, 8.30 a.m. you have to be on. And then they take, it was about a two hour process. And then we didn't even get any further in the case.

They just said, okay, now May 28th, you have another case to really start getting into it. And imagine if someone had like, okay, I'm going to take two hours off of work. I have to explain to my boss why I'm on a two hour Zoom meeting in a court in Michigan. And then they can just like, oh, we're going to adjourn, we're going to adjourn. So all these little inconveniences, if they really wanted to clamp down on us, they could make us come to the state for certain things. So that, you know, I have to drive or fly to Detroit, I have to get a hotel. And when the court system gets weaponized against you, it just feels, it feels crappy. It's like, how am I funding this?

But you guys get to just yank us around. And I'm experiencing it to the lightest dose of what's out there. Right. I've had some bullshit happen to me. When I was like 17, I was at a basketball court. And, well basically, the cops said, they charged me with aggravated robbery

that I swear to God on Jesus Christ I didn't do. Oh on Jesus too? I was in crutches and a boot. I swear to God I didn't do it. I was in crutches and a boot. And then. Slow bank robbery. Yeah so here's what happened.

We was at a basketball court and I was with my friend. This is when I was like, well I was 17 so I was just visiting Houston because I used to live there. I was visiting, I was in my crutches, on the sidelines, while they were hooping and stuff, just chilling. And then, it was just tense, you know,

just hooping, talking shit. And then after, my phone was charging on the side, so I went to go grab my phone, and I guess this boy's ball was here, and as I was going to get my phone, he was like, let me take my ball, I don't want you stealing it.

And then we just started arguing, and that it cuz I mean crutches in a boot I'm sorry can't you do shit I left I come back to the court three weeks later and like two cop cars pull up They run put my hands behind my back while I'm still in the boot. They asked me a bunch of questions They handcuffed me take me a picture take a picture of me ask me a bunch of questions And then they let me go and then the next day they put me on the news and said I was on the run On the run. Yes, I swear to God do we have this news article we can link? Yeah Yeah, I gotta find it for you Tell us in the chase bank archive and archival footage or anything like that

Chase bank archive footage. Yeah, cuz you have a lot of those don't you? Yeah But yeah, what was the charge again aggravated robberyated robbery. Aggravated robbery. Yes. And I had to get a lawyer. They said I put a gun to his head and put him in a headlock and took his basketball. If you did that on crutches, that's some real G-shit. That's what I'm saying. On crutches and just a basketball? Yeah, they dragged the case on for four years and I had to call and check in every Wednesday.

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Because I had a bail's bond. So I had to just check in every Wednesday or like, I don't know, some shit would happen. What are you doing? Selling PS5s? Yeah. And then yeah, that, it took a while and it finally got dismissed, but I think they were just waiting for me to fuck up again so they could use that. That is what they do in the system. They get you on something.

And you know the term they use for like probation where they say tail? There's another one that I think would be perfect to call a tail, which is when they get you for something so they can have an excuse to watch you and tail you around and then wait for you to do something. And sometimes like, maybe you are doing something wrong. But other times they just use it because you know, they want to get their numbers and they want to make a case and this is an easy target because it's someone who's already in the system.

Yeah, they put me on the news too. And like, my friends, parents was calling my mom like, is your son okay? And everybody's asking me if I'm okay. I just woke up and I'm on the news saying I'm on the run. What did your mom say to you when she saw that? I don't even remember. She was just more worried. She didn't really say anything but I don't know. That was so long ago. When you were growing up like I don't know when you were like 10, 11, like what did you want to do? Did you have like aspirations for a certain career or something like that?

Yeah, I wanted to be in the NFL or the NBA, like everybody else, yeah. Were you nice? In basketball? Yeah. Yeah, I was like a 7 out of 10 in basketball. 10 out of 10 in football, though. 10 out of 10? Yeah. What are you, like 6'6", something like that?

Like 6'4". 6'4"? Yeah, you're pretty big. Yeah, like 6'5", 6'4"? Yeah, pretty big. Were you good at anything? When I was growing, when I was 18 years old, I was the same height I am now and 140 pounds. So I was like a stilt. So I was like not, I was a late bloomer with stuff. I wasn't great at anything.

I was good at golf. I could do that well. What a white thing to say. Yeah, golf. Okay. I suck at golf and baseball. Okay soccer player. I was at golf and baseball. Okay soccer player. I was like a mediocre baseball player.

But yeah, it wasn't like great anything. What position were you in basketball? Point guard, shooting guard. Point guard. Yeah. You played in high school? Yeah, a little bit and then I quit. Why'd you quit?

To do YouTube. To do YouTube? Yeah. So you gave up on the dream to do YouTube? Yeah. Well, it wasn't even, I didn't want to do it no more It stopped being fun. Why did it stop being fun? Cuz everybody was just taking it too serious and it wasn't fun anymore Mmm. Yeah, it just wasn't fun. It just felt like a job. What'd you want to do on YouTube? I was making 2k videos Okay, and that's when I got to selling the 2k accounts and stuff, right? Yeah, so you get to YouTube

You're like this Monetization is a little harder than I thought Yeah, no, no, I was actually doing good on YouTube. Oh you were I mean yet decent back then like as a kid I was making like four to six thousand a month that's back there before inflation too, so yeah, that's actually really in 2016 It was pretty good, and I would just use it all like I'd buy a laptop or something Yeah, and then somewhere in there you're like I'm getting connected to a lot of people through this and they got some dough. I can add that little dough to my account You know pull it out

Something like that. Okay Did your mom know what you were doing? She knew you're doing YouTube, but did she know the other stuff? No, cuz I wasn't really super doing it that much. That was just like, all right, for the weekend we're going to do this. What do you mean? You're going to do this? Like for the weekend, all right, I'm going to hit that play. You're going to what?

Sell the accounts. Okay. It wasn't like my everyday thing. Yeah, he's saying that. He'll know what that means. So did she ever catch you doing something where she's like what are you doing this is illegal no no so you're totally under the radar yes thought you were just doing the YouTube account pretty much that's what

I was doing at that time for the most part I'm telling you I probably only did that for like two weekends okay one of his hustles you should know about didn't you pretend to either be a girl or send girl oh damn I forgot guys to show up to your house? Not my house, but the house across the street. Yeah, I used to pretend. Yeah, it's called e-whoring. I used to do that.

I used to do that. I used to have... Wait, e-whoring? Yeah. So how would this happen? What's the process? So I would get pictures of a female, make a Tinder, make all the Bumble, Ubo, all those apps. And then I would just tell them in the bio, it would be like, add me on Snap. And then a whole

bunch of people would just start adding you on Snap. And then you'll charge them for like a premium story or like a meetup. And then I'll just go from there. And then I started doing that and I had two other girls doing it too I was teaching them how to do it and we meet up after school every day would they use themselves Yeah, they won't use themselves, but I would have them because The guys they would be like alright call me to verify your real or like let me hear your voice and shit So then like they will call and then they would say hi and she would say hi and then like I would tell them What to say they would mutate I say hi and she would say hi and then like I would tell them what to say they would muted I'll be like I say this and then yeah, so it was really like a little operation like out of your parents house

No, no, I was in my car Okay, now my parents no no where people was put up Nobody put up to my parents house But they'll pull up down the street or something cuz like they will pull up and it'd be like alright If you're really who you say you are what car am I I in? So now I just look out the window and be like, you're in this car. And then they would send it and I would like, they would send it through Apple pay and I'll delete the message or Apple pay. Like, you know, you can, you can, somebody sends you money. You can delete like that part. I did not know this.

Yeah. So I would delete that and I'll send them a screenshot, but I didn't get it. Send it again. We don't recommend any of this. We're doing this episode so that people can learn how to spot this and not get e-hored and stuff. That's why we're exploring this. That was actually one thing that was really interesting. The little side note right here, when we brought in the drivers, like I really, I had talked with them when we all like met up when you were here way back, but I really wanted to do that because it was like, it wasn't at all to glorify it or anything like that. In fact, I did quite the opposite throughout that episode,

but I wanted to see where these guys are coming from, why they do what they do, have a chance for people out there to see it. Obviously we're not gonna like condone it, but there were a lot of people who were like, how dare you put these people on here? I'm like, guys, would you rather like never hear from them and not know what it is or not know the people

are out there either driving around or slinging PS5s to people for 500 bucks that they never fucking get? Like, I'd rather see it even if it's not something that is like you ever wanna condone or something like that. And as you're telling us today, you're trying to stop people from doing that. Yeah. Allegedly. It's been my tone. Yeah. That's been your tone. Yeah, I mean that's fucked up. Somebody's working hard for their money and then you're just gonna take it from them. That's not right.

So you think it was fucked up when you were saying all right, yeah, that's a red mazda down there. Tell him that and then he's sending you 200 bucks to get pussy. He shouldn't be paying for pussy. Just go outside. I don't feel, I never felt bad pussy. He shouldn't be paying for pussy. Just go outside. I Don't feel I never felt bad doing this that one you were okay with yeah, I never felt bad You feel bad for him? It's mixed emotions. It's kind of a pathetic creature. Yeah, like what are you doing? That's like that should be your you should after that you should be all right I need to be in the scrimmage definitely different than like I'm trying to get a PS5 or something. Yeah, that's a little fucked up.

There's definitely something different there. That guy in the drive home needs to put on a Tony Robbins motivational speech. It changes his life. Oh, I would have people like, I would have them go get food too and drop it off at the neighbor's. I swear to God, I'd be like, yeah, go to McDonald's. I need a 10 piece with a Sprite. And then after like so I Would either block them and then they would get the picture and leave or like one time

I rolled up the windows like it's a place you're nervous And then they just skirt off the block go down click they put the money in the mailbox Sometimes if they wanted to pay cash pick up the money out the mailbox and get my food You know they see you when you did the police thing like did they know it was nighttime. No, they didn't see you One time there was a there was one guy in a BMW too And I think I hit him like three times like he sent it like three times and he was like this my last I don't even got gas to get back. He drove like three hours and I blocked him and then like

He just started banging the steering wheel like this and I was putting his head on it like a movie scene Like crying on the steering wheel. Did you feel bad for this guy? No Why is he paying no, I don't drive in a BMW Three so he drives drove a BMW three hours spent all his went negative into his bank account to pay for pussy There's so much going on there. Yeah, that means that man needs a dr. Phil up You feel bad. I Just feel bad for how miserable I feel like I'm saying people are so desperate They're probably like pedophiles to so I don't feel bad if you're that No, that's I wouldn't put in past run in the shit

So did you ever put people like girls like fake girls on there that were underage? No, no, no, okay Yeah, that's good. No, I would not do that. But that's what I'm saying Oh, you're trying to say like Would be like a fucking pedophile would be coming there to see them Yeah, but I didn't even I wouldn't even think it that wasn't big like to catch a predator and shit like Skeeter Dean would do it I wasn't big bang. I wouldn't even thinking about it and I didn't care. I just wanted to finesse him Yeah, well you did that. You did a video with Chris Hansen, right? I'm Chris Hansen. Yeah, he's crazy. Oh, Chris Hansen. Yeah, he's a very interesting character.

So we got to go into a house that they had set up with cameras everywhere. There was local PD waiting and it was just a sting operation. Take a seat. And he is a very, I don't want to say neurotic, but he's in the zone. He's constantly taking notes on his clipboard. He's kind of practicing his lines and he shut things down. Like when the person was 20 minutes away,

he like came and whispered, like he just would be like, he's a professional and this is what he does. So he just wanted everything. He was an operator. Everything was in tip top shape. And then when he, when the predator comes, that's his entering the UFC cage. He

goes in there, like Bruce Buffer announces he's there and then he strolls in and he does, like that's his thing that he does for the world. And it was just very interesting to see it from 15 feet away and we heard it on the other side of the wall. Oh, so you can't see it. We had a monitor in the room. Yeah, like room caption. Yeah, but like the What I said, there was a huge adrenaline rush. I didn't think it was a big deal I'm like, oh some like some turds gonna come in here talking to a kid

Like it's not a big deal But when that guy stepped in everyone's breath was held and it was like holy shit I can't believe Chris Hansen is out there doing it right now. It is crazy and it's real It's actually someone who's there thinking they're meeting up with, like you're in the presence of someone who's a legit pedophile. Well, there's a little gray area here.

Cause here's why I say that. Some of these guys, like they claim, well hey, the dating profile was 19, and you're only supposed to have adults on this profile, and then somewhere in, the cops hook them and say, I'm only 14, but then they're too far deep to get out of it. Like they're too horny to back out and they keep going forward. What I didn't get to see was the communication.

I don't know how they let them know that they're 14. Because some of these guys just seem more sleazy than pedophilia. Like some of them, you just look at the guy and you're like, oh you're you do kids because that's all you can get and But there's some guys that are like it's a 35 year old man that thinks he's meeting a 19 year old and then It's already like a little it's gray area and I'm not excusing any of this I'm not trying to apologize for them. But also some of them I think are mentally like I don't know There's some guys in the autism spectrum coming in to get kids so it's like Some of it. I do feel a little

Don't feel no you have to protect the kids no matter what so put these guys away But these are guys that just need help a lot of them are very sad pathetic well They're all sad pathetic, but like the thing is Tommy I don't give a fuck like what profile you're looking at how hot you might think she is Alright, the second she says she's underage. That's it I my phone's getting burned like Yeah, I just want to know to get the leads that they're getting I would be curious to see what the communication looks like They'd be on that anything. I feel like they beyond they know exactly what yeah, I'm with I'm with dev here

I'm sure there's a few like statistically. There's a few who are just this I mean obviously this wrong something wrong with all of them, but there's a few that are like literally I don't know like because I guess where I'm going with the guy's defenses like look the apps that the app says 19 But he knows they say it multiple times. They don't just say it once. They never just say it once They'd be like, yep, and then they'll be like, oh they'd know what they're doing I guess even think about this even a 35 year old agreeing to go drive through the night meet up with a 19 year old That itself is still very weird and still like this guy's a little bit Yeah, yeah dry and and like driving so I know I feel bad for these guys at all I just think when I see the guys that look for and I'm like, oh man, like he lives in his mom's basement, but they still know what they're doing to them. Yeah.

The re yes. They still know what they're doing to maybe knowing and they'll try to try to play into knowing they still need to be protected from a predator. Yeah. Yeah. I don't want people to twist your words there. I understand what you're saying. It's just like There's such a clear line there that if you actually like literally are or something like that or mentally 2025 I've heard it's not allowed to I think so it gets demonetized but Like what yeah what I was what I was trying to say is like if you literally are mentally challenged, I don't know. Maybe there's like some kind of case you can make there. But it's just so clear that like even if you're even if you're a dumb person,

you're dumb enough to drive through the middle of night because you think like some 19 year olds like thirsty for you or something. There's something going on. Yeah. What are you doing now? What happens after Chris Hansen walks in there and says, take a seat? And then the cameras stop after he does the whole confrontation. Do the cops come? They get swarmed right away. So they either get swarmed because the guy tries escaping and the cops swarm them then,

or he does his five or 10 minute interview with them and sees how deep he can go with what their motivations are, what's happened in their life. Just acknowledging how aware they are of how much they would mess someone's life up if they went through with this. And once he's done with that, then bam, in the bedrooms or rooms next door, there's eight or nine cops just ready to jump in at the slightest. If something's about to go off, eight or nine guys are jumping in on you.

You see how some of them be fans of Chris Hansen, too? Oh, that's the worst. How are you a fan? They'd be like, I know exactly who you are. Oh, I love your show. You're on the show right now. And then I like the, do you see any excuses they come up with, too?

Like I was just coming here to make sure they were all OK. Oh, I was delivering pizza. They said they were hungry. Oh, the panic face excuses are nuts, man. Like it's like the peak cringe when you watch guys trying to explain it away. Now, here's something to think about is these, a lot of these people are not, what's the word? You can't cure them of this. Right.

Do you, is there, hey, just life in prison? Is this a death penalty situation? Because you cannot have these people out lurking. You should just put them on an island. When our kids are walking around. Huh? I think we need people like that, pedophiles. We need an island and you just throw them on an island.

I know of an island that might be available. F-T-9? I think they moved out of it, yeah. They should throw all them type of people on that island. Yeah, because the recidivism rate is, I was talking to a couple of experts on this, I think it's like, it's extremely high. Once it's in their system, that's what they go for. The thing that scared me a little bit, like a couple years ago was when, you know, and

I remember like trying to in my head be like, no, they're not really doing that. And then you start to see it. But when they started to try to like create a term for it maps Attracted persons were no way. Oh, yeah, I never heard of that. They're trying to make a sickness out of it I think for the people that proposed that they were trying but that's too easy. Oh, explain it away Yeah, they're gonna be like well, it's a disorder. No, it's not. How do you like a kid's like disgusting? It's gross, dude Disorder no, it's not. How do you like a kid's like disgusting? That's gross, dude Yeah, it's like and and you know, some of them like little kids to write like toddlers and infants Yeah, like they sell them type of videos or pictures and she's disgusting. Yes, literally disgusting

There was a very dark happens a lot here that is almost too uncomfortable to go down Yeah, to know that this is the thing when I talked to that some of the cops in the basement to realize When you talk to these guys that chase it down, they act like it's everywhere and to me I'm like, oh this must be a very niche category. Like there's a couple guys in each town. They don't run out of episodes They just is everywhere though. Don't you know? That's a lot of people don't like there's actually like a lot of people that like are weird like that I feel like people people think is rare But it's not like there's a lot Like there's always somebody in somebody's family

like doing some weird shit. Like it's weird, bro. Just being on Telegram, running the camera across like a lot of weird shit, bro. On Telegram? Yeah. What kinds of shit? Just weird shit, bro.

Like people just be trolling, sending shit. Like I've heard stories, like just being in the atmosphere like around type of shit, yeah. There's a lot of weird people in like- Are people just like sending around like, you know what I mean? Nah, I've never had another sent to me, but I've heard stories and shit, yeah.

And like they'll be having like, just weird telegram groups and shit. It's just everywhere, it is everywhere. And people are sick for sure. Does that surprise you guys, or just to think that it's that widespread, does that surprise you? When I first think about it every time,

of course it it surprises me, because you're like, how could people be like this? And then when you hear about it more and more, you're like, not to get cynical about it, but you're like, well, I guess it's a subset percentage of people, or just fuck up. It's always surprising to me, but I just was so surprised how common it was.

I feel like we definitely walk across a weird pedophile a couple of times a day. But there's also, around the world, there's some cultural problems too. And there's one example that, I'm telling you, this has come up now on camera a few times, but it's come up off camera with every fucking tier one guy I've had here who spent a lot of time in Afghanistan. Like it's normal there. Oh yeah, there'd be weird stuff out there.

It's normal there. Yeah yeah, there'd be weird stuff out there. It's normal there. Yeah, like over there, yeah. They have a phrase, it's disgusting, but the phrase is like, you know, women are for babies and boys are for fun. That's a very real thing. Like we've had multiple guys in here who have pulled guys off of the kids.

Like literally had to physically pull them off. That is crazy. It's fucking disgusting. Yeah, I don't know how people could even start that type of. But that's, it's culturally, like, like that one, looking at it as a science, like, you know, experiment, like how the fuck does X lead to Y here? It's because it's culturally ingrained.

Like that's just what they do, you know? And they're like, all right, so they do this to little kids and then those little kids grow up and it's like, okay Yeah, fucking them up. Yeah. Yeah, that's how you seen that document that Netflix series. Who was the two boys the Mendes brothers? Yeah, it's like it always starts like that Like it's like their parent does some weird shit to them and they grow up and do some weird shit to somebody else Yeah, yeah Yeah There was another boost of Monta was just in here And he talked about I was asking him the most fucked up stuff he ever saw. He was a covert

spy for CIA probably stolen. But he talked about going to meet with like warlord generals in Africa. And there's a bunch of little kids around that are child soldiers that they feed gunpowder and cocaine to make them fucking crazy. they abuse all of them and I said How how do you? How do you fix that like how do you break that cycle? And he said I'm gonna get in a lot of trouble for saying this because it sucks to say it But he's like you just got to kill them all Yeah, you kind of do though. I'm like what do you mean? He's like all of them. It's like they're

You feel terrible for the kids. It's already gone Yeah You know it gets dark it gets real dark But then we you know, we're supposed to be like this beacon on the hill in America, you know but we got a severe problem here, too, let's not be pointing fingers everywhere else in the world like Like you said, it's in every town. It's in every city There's people who do this if you go pull up the fucking what's it? What's the sex register that map? Yeah, it's like the citizens at map to you believe they're like everywhere. I'll be doing that. I look and I like

everywhere Yeah, no and it could be the most normal people to the normal seeming yeah, they do they look normal I don't know. I feel like they have a look to them. So that's some of them There's definitely a profile when he gets caught on Chris Hanson. You're like I feel like sometimes I feel like Chris does get central casting like I feel like that He's like, oh that one that one will do who's the turd that looks sad and just you know That just is never getting late in his life. Yeah. Yeah, how'd you get in touch with him? his guy Sean

Runs there the network true blue and they do a lot of either police kind of documentaries and more right-wing things. I think he's working on a piece with Kristi Noem, the current HHS. Is that HHS? Sounds right. Yeah, she's one of the… She's the chief fed, let's just say that. So he has all these different connections and then we said, hey, we'd love to collaborate.

So when we were driving on a trip, we went out to his place in Ohio. Chris Hansen was there. We had pizza with him, but not in a way that most people have pizza with Chris Hansen. And- You had pizza with him? They had, they were having a team meeting when we got to their house.

He always does bring out that pizza. Mm. Yeah, I got, even just seeing him eating pizza and me being in the same room, like I'm not supposed to be here. This is like, you gotta look for the doors. Look for the exits Oh, man That's just kind of dangerous

Because imagine if it's just a pedophile and then he's just like He don't even want to see the consequences. He just crashes out. Oh, yeah and thought I couldn't Kill him in under two minutes. You know what I mean? Okay. What if they come in with a gun? I feel like a lot of them are so wimpy. You're so lame. Yeah. Remember when when EDP 445 got caught? Yeah. Oh my god. EDP 445? He got caught a couple times, right? Oh yeah. No, it's some fat black YouTuber. Yeah, it stood for Eat That Pussy 445. Are, yeah his it was it stood for eat that pussy four or four or five. Are you serious? That was his name. Yeah, I didn't know that's what it's the reason I know him is cuz I mean we don't claim him now, but he'll you like friends with him. No, no

You guys are a mom as an Eagles fan so like hilarious Eagles videos like And people would just like laugh at all his crash outs. And then a few years later, he's pretty big and then gets caught literally full blown staying, coming to meet a 13 year old girl. He knew she was 13 or supposedly gonna be 13. Usually you don't stereotype that the brothers are in

on this, but even DJ Academics had a weird thing. He did? I heard about that. Yeah, shout out DJ academics. You and Brandon Buckingham should go do a cage fight and settle some things because your little couch potato. Oh yeah, he went after Brandon. Yeah, but he was talking to a kid online and saying some unbelievable things and… Define unbelievable.

These are things that if I repeat I get banned from YouTube, you know what I mean? Oh, okay. That's good enough I'll just say sexually suggestive things to a boy Some Catholic never mind. You're just joined so I won't say that but some Vatican shit. I gotta look into that Oh, dude, there's you gotta look in there Church Undeniably. Oh, yes. It's not great. They've covered up. It's not great. I mean look at the Boston Globe. Do you think the Pope would be on that too? The last Pope or any of the Popes? If you're running, if you're the leader of a group

that knowingly shifts priests around when incidents happen frequently, like not just one or two, but hundreds, yeah, I think you probably know about it. The Pope before the last one, so not Pope Francis. Pope Benedict, I think his name was. Benedict The pope before the last one, so not Pope Francis. Pope Benedict, I think his name was. Benedict. He was a guy who had shifted around a bunch of these guys and then he retired from being pope. Pope?

And some people speculate, oh, was he kind of like... So does that make the Catholic... I feel like it don't make the Catholic religion less credible, but the people in it could just be bad. I think about this a lot because what I never want to do is in anything like collectively punish people or whatever like I grew up Catholic right? Are you still and not no more? No. What are you now? I'm nothing. No way you believe in science? No, no, no I definitely believe in God 100 percent. I just don't need a organized church to tell me how to do it. No, definitely. That's how you should feel too, but I like to go to church now and like follow that cuz it's just like it's just like a

Book of guidelines that just helped me be more focused. When did you start like really going to church? I never really went to church, but I just started like reading the Bible and stuff and like studying it a lot When was that? My whole life, but I started doing reading the Bible and stuff and studying it a lot. When was that? My whole life, but I started doing it super hard in 2021. What made you want to do that? We were talking about this at the very beginning of what we got on. Some incident happened where I almost lost my life. I had to defend myself.

Then after that, I was like, yeah, I got to get it together. Then when I started, I was at, somebody tried to ride me at ATM, yeah. Now were you known at this point, were you already known publicly? Yeah, a little bit, a little bit. I could tell the person who did it, like it was random, but I could tell the person

who was trying to do it, like definitely knew who I was, cause like he came around the corner with like the AR and like you could see in his eyes, he was like, yeah, he was just like that. And I was like. Oh wait, you pulled out too. Yeah, so here's what happened. Well, I was at the ATM, the short version of the story.

I was at the ATM basically, and I was taking pictures, like hella money and shit. And then we seen a car parked there, but it looked like it was off, so I wasn't thinking none of it. And then I hear somebody come around the corner. And then in my pictures, sometimes I take pictures with the gloves and the mask on and shit.

So he first came around the corner, he had the same shit on. So I don't know, my first thought, I was like, or maybe he's here to do the same shit. So we're this distance away from each other. I'm like, what's up? He's like, what's up? He tries to grab me. I step back and I pull my shit out. And I was like, what the fuck?

And as soon as I do that, it was like a 16 year old kid comes around with a big ass AR. He's masked up too. And he sees me and he just freezes like that. You can just see in his eyes. And I was just like, and I shot the person in front of me. Oh, you shot him? Yeah. And then I went to shoot the person with the AR, but my adrenaline was running so much and

I was holding like so tight, like the clip fell out. So when I shot it, it clipped, so tight, like the clip fell out. So when I shot it, it clicked and the clip fell out. And then they ran that way and the dude, he got hit somewhere around here. He got up and it fell on the ground again and then I ran this way. Yeah. And then-

Did you call the cops? Like four hours later, because I didn't know what to do. I was like, man, I don't know if I should or not. Because I was on the way out running, I'm running with my shit and I look up and I look directly into a camera. So I was like, I don't know if I shoot or not, because I was on the way out running. I'm running with my shit, and I look up, and there is like a, I look directly into a camera. So I was like, I have to. So I call, and I tell him, like, yeah, somebody tried to rob me 18, I had to defend myself.

And so it's all on camera too, because it's at 18. It is on camera, but I never got the footage. So I call and tell him that, and then the cop was just on some, instead of like, all right, you're in America, you're defending yourself, he was just like, make, try to make me a criminal, like, oh got a we've seen we we picked up the multiple shell cases We need you to come down and speak to us and shit

I was like never mind and I got my lawyer and I was gonna have my lawyer put in like The affidavit or whatever to get the footage But he was like don't even if they're not gonna do anything with the case and was no case But if they're not gonna pursue it, I wouldn't ask for the footage either So he told me not to ask for it so it doesn't like stir some up Did they ever pursue the other guys? So it just totally went no, I wouldn't ask for the footage either. So he told me not to ask for it so it doesn't like stir some up. Did they ever pursue the other guys? So it just totally went. No, I wouldn't have said anything about them anyway. I just had to let them know how to defend myself.

I wouldn't have snitched on them. I just had to be like, I had to defend myself. I mean, I'm on camera anyway, no mask. Yeah. And I have a concealed carry so that if I would have killed both of them, I would have been good. But you didn't kill either of them. No. They got away.

Not that I know. Yeah, I don't know nothing about them or nothing. Let's go back to that, though. So you shot at him. Did you hit him? Yeah, for sure. He was definitely this far away from me. I probably hit him like somewhere around his stomach and leg. What'd that feel like? You'd never shot someone before. Yeah, but I mean that's every gun owner's dream I feel like. What else you buying the guns for? Just defend yourself. So I wish I would have killed him And I think the dream is to not have to use it that would be the dream Personally yeah, but you like are you feeling like it? Is it just the adrenaline rush like holy shit? I just shot someone or

Um, yeah, I did not sleep the next day because I was just thinking I didn't give a fuck about them I just thought I was gonna go to jail I was like i'm fucked. I was like, man, I'm fucked. I was looking up assault charge, like how many years I'm gonna do. I did not sleep. And then eventually nothing came from me. I mean, I wasn't in the wrong anyway,

but like you said, when you're innocent still, and you do something like that, you still have to go to jail and do shit like that. And then they'll find out that you're innocent later. Right. Yeah. Right. So that's what I'm thinking in my head. Like either way, I'm gonna have to just, yeah. Did time stop a little bit in the middle of that? No, it happened so quick. It just happened so quick. That's what I'm telling you. You never know when

you're going to need it or not. It'll just be happening quick. When you were running away though from the scene, what does- I was kind of hitting a little jog, looking back, making sure. Checking out his work. Because you don't want to run full. What if there's somebody else is around the corner, too You don't want to run full speed. You gotta dig, you know do an observant job But yeah, they just they just left and then I just did you see like blood coming from behind I didn't even look I go back to the scene or nothing though I just know he got he got hit he fell to the ground He got up and fell to the ground again, and he's I'm here. I'm here

And then yeah, they left So I don't care to tell the story though, so I didn't do nothing wrong and it please Yeah, the footage is all right there I have nothing to lie about if it's self-defense and they're coming around and you're robbing an ATM and you know Yeah, any gun you're within your rights to do that Yeah, I'm sure every gun owner out there listening to it right now, that's in fact what happened, would probably say the same thing. But that's what made you want to start reading the Bible after that. It won't take long to tell you Neutral's ingredients.

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I was verified on everything. Like a different? Rap name. Yeah, rap name. So it was OB and Dev. That was my name before. OB and Dev. What does that stand for?

I don't even really remember. So long ago. You don't remember, dude? No, no, no. So I think it just looked cool. What are you, Ronald Reagan? I understand right now. Yeah, so I had an Ronald Reagan? I'm just adding it right now. Yeah, so I had an Instagram.

I was blowing up on that one too. My YouTube, TikTok. I was making money on all those platforms. And then one day, it just got deleted. All of it. My Instagram got clapped. My YouTube, my TikToks, I had to restart again. That's how I became PunchMadeDev.

So all the platforms just simultaneously took you off Yeah, was it because of stuff that had publicly come out that involved? Yeah, it was loopholes like cuz like everybody was upgrading their terms and shit a service This is like when the world started becoming like where you can't say like Yeah, so like that's all the terms was getting updated and I guess like there was like loopholes in the system We could just get somebody banned for no reason, right? Yes. I was one fail They can ban so people were doing like a mass reporting on you kind of yeah, something like that Yes

Did you ever have the people that try to take your account hostage and make you buy it back and do the extortion game? Cuz what I said tried to do to me but I never pay cuz I they they don't take our account hostage But they'll ban it and be like I can help you get it back for this amount. But I already know it's bullshit, so I never pay. Because the Instagram help support system is so terrible that there's guys that made a business out of, they would somehow manage to infiltrate your account. And I actually had a guy do this to me.

Somebody took your actual account? No, they- Just banned it, right? I would keep getting a message, your account's been banned. Yeah, facts. And then you have to appeal and then luckily Instagram would reinstate it. But there was this one teenage kid that was going after me for a few days and I was just like, dude.

Yeah, they're annoying. Yeah, it's huge. There's still really bad loopholes in the systems on all the platforms. And it's tough because like they have, you know, tens of millions, billions of accounts on there. It's not like they can do it individually. But yeah, people will like mass report something they don't like and then you later have to get it fixed And they're like, oh sorry, but in the meantime it fucked you. Yeah, and that could be somebody's whole business

That's like burning down somebody's store. Yeah. Yeah. Have you ever got banned? I've had posts taken down before beat that were falsely reported. Yeah, that's happened on Yeah happen on Instagram a few times, which I'm not even like active on Instagram. It's crazy to happen there. When we used to be really big on TikTok and that was like driving stuff, we had problems in 2021 and early 2022 with that. And then on YouTube, we haven't had stuff banned on YouTube, have we? No, we had one like copyright disagreement, but yeah, YouTube's been okay, but I hear about it on YouTube where people, not even like copyright strike stuff, people have like mass reportings on like, I don't know, hateful

content or whatever the fuck the buzzword is. You can get anything back though. You can get YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, like there's a way, I know how to, I'm not going to say it on here, but if that ever happens to you, I swear to God, I know how to get anything back gonna say on here But if it ever happens to you, I swear to God know how to get anything back Wait, why can't you say it on here? Cuz I'm not gonna give out the sauce. There's not gonna work No, it's not no shady way to do it though It's like there's a legal way to do it, but you can get it back anything back. Does it involve like Having an in at the company. No, but some no it doesn't involve having it. You don't need one

That's a route you can take but you don't need one. No I'm so curious about that. Yeah, I mean it's simple a route you can take, but you don't need one, no. I am so curious about this. I mean, it's simple. I tell you, you're just gonna be like, oh, I never thought about it. He's a smart guy. I know, I can tell you're a very smart guy. Accomplished businessman.

There's no doubt about that. Didn't Harvard Business recruit you to teach their classes and stuff? Yeah, I turned it down though. Those people are not smart enough. Professor Dev? They're not smart enough. Professor Punch made Dev? So when did they approach you? Harvard? Yeah. those people that's smart enough for faster punch me that way so when when

did they approach you Harvard yeah you know what a Harvard student actually hit me up to wanted to do an interview with me I don't know what it's gonna be about so so you didn't do it yeah I would have though if I could have did it in Harvard I was like I'll do it if we can do it in Harvard it was just a Harvard student I

guess you wouldn't do a project on your son yeah all right so wasn't them asking you to teach a class? No. Okay. Teach a class about what? How to prevent fraud. Ethical business practices. Yeah. I don't know. That would be interesting though. Professor Punch made Dev coming in there like, all right, today. Wearing a reaper Today, wearing a Reaper chain with his lights on. Oh my God. When did you get into rapping? I mean, I made some songs when I was 13, but when I really got into it was 2018, I think. Yeah. What made you... Because for people out there who haven't seen your music like you rap about like how to scam And stuff like that like it's very on brand. Yeah, it's not the only thing about that wasn't what I was right about back then

What were you rapping about back then? I can't remember just regular shit How can you not remember all these things by the way have you listened to much of his music some of it is the most heinous? Crimes against humanity that you can picture. Yeah written into a rhyme form, right? It's excellent. It's hard Yeah, yeah, you can't be using the court against you in certain states, especially it was not true, right? None of it. No, yeah But so in 2018 you started getting heavy into it Like why because I was still doing 2k So I was a 2k youtuber still and then but 2k 18 with that game was just like that's when they started falling off

So like yeah, yeah, just the game was just garbage. I was like, there's no way I'm gonna do a whole year of this And YouTube so then randomly I just private it on my videos and started rapping And it kind of blew up. Do you think eventually because of the other stuff you were doing though? What the alleged scamming? No, that wasn't big. big I'm telling you nobody really knew it was me for real. That wasn't like a big thing back then yeah. Like me saying this now is gonna be a surprise to people. That wasn't like a known thing back then. Had you ever like, you were obviously publicly a rapper when you guys made a video together but had you discussed that publicly at any point before then? Before you made the video with Tommy?

Like the scamming aspects? Like with him then, before you made the video with Tommy? Like the scamming aspects? Like with him? Yeah, before you did that video with him, had you ever discussed that with anyone on a video? Oh, nah. So that was the first time? Yeah. Were you nervous to do that?

A little bit. I was glad I did it, though. But some people was telling me not to do it. And I was like, nah, I'm going to do it. Fuck yeah, I'm going to do it. But then after that, a bunch of other people and other YouTubers hit me up trying to do the same thing. I was like, no, I'm not gonna redo it or rerun. And our piece is too legendary. I can't. Yeah. Yeah. But I just did another one with Brandon that you're gonna see. Oh,

good. Brandon Buckingham. And it's crazy. No, this one's crazy. I had a junkie go in the store and I'm not even gonna spoil it. You had a junkie go in the store? Yeah, no, it's crazy. Were you doing it like the true TV like outside with the mic with the with the fucking walkie-talkie like now tell them this No, I was in there. Well, you're gonna see okay. This one's crazy though. Yeah, when's that coming out that we know Oh, no, I gotta ask him price soon though Brandon films 72 videos I had a time. Yeah, he had he had I think he had 71 or something in the bank like three months That's an absurd amount of I'm like dude. What are you gonna do with all that? I don't even got that much early songs. Yeah, that's a lot of work. That's a lot of work

So where were you filming with him down here in New York? So you came into town to do scam yeah But teach oh, yeah. Yeah. No, yeah You guys like ran out of warehouse that you turned into a bank again, that kind of thing? Nah, we was just going around. The police kicked me out the store and everything. It was crazy.

I don't even want to spoil the video, but yeah, it's crazy. Police kicked us out. They were looking for me. Randomly a junkie spawned in and she hit a play. Spawned in? She just spawned in. She hit a play. She just spawned in. She hit a play. We was getting free food, free toothbrushes, free iPads. Yeah.

You catch a charge? Like, no, no, no, I didn't do it. I tell you the junkie spawned in and did it. You are real good at dodging. I gotta tell you. You should be a politician. Yes. Huh? You'd make a good politician. Yeah Somehow like I can dodge everything. It's you're you're dodging bullets. You're dodging charges. You're dodging Things you're talking about out loud that they still don't get you on. Yeah

He's like, yeah Yeah, it's a smart way to do everything. We got off it though After the shooting the the reason we got into that is because i've been asking you like why you started Oh, yeah, have you ever played a Ouija board? I've never actually played a Ouija board. Do you think is real or fake? I'd be inclined to say it's fake. What do you think is fake too? Come on, dude. It's not fake, bro It's not fake. That's where you go boys are real. So I'm gonna tell you what happened led you into Catholicism Yes, please do tell okay. So I always believed in God and Jesus, right?

Then one day was and decided to just play the Ouija board, so I was playing it with a friend. After you got, after the shooting. This is, this might have been, yeah, no, no, no, this might have been before that. Okay, so. But the shooting was the thing that solidified it. Right, okay.

And then that's, and then when I started believing in God and then everything good started happening. I always believed in him, when I started taking him more serious. But yeah, so I was playing the Ouija board with a friend, we were doing that, and then one day I played about myself And it was still doing the same shit And I was like brothers little shit here that we can't see and then that's all I was like God has to be real

I always believed but I was like God has to be real cuz I should we can't see play it by yourself Then I'm I swear to God we should play this clip when he becomes Pope one day And we see how he got did his journey to the top of the papacy It's just cuz there's actually shit here that we can't see that exists for sure mmm I don't know you got it I used to think it was fake too I should be just like you man that shit's not real and I played it with a friend I was like he probably was moving it and I played it by myself you found like God in that that's what's interesting a lot of why I always had God but it was like yeah no and then I

was like cuz there's stuff here we can't see. And I was like, it's 100%. I feel like most people go to Jesus, they come to Him in a rock bottom place where when they're at their lowest point, Jesus or God reaches out to them and they feel this connection but He did it with ghosts and Ouija boards. Right, but that's… I didn't know that was bad back then either. I didn't know that was like demonic or like weird like black magic.

I didn't know that at the time. I thought, I just didn't know that was bad back then either. I didn't know that was demonic or weird, like black magic. I didn't know that at the time. I thought, I just didn't know. Right. Alessi's our resident god guy. Is that like not, he's like begging to Jesus. Is that not a thing? They don't fuck with Ouija boards. No, not at all.

Well, Ouija boards essentially, the line of what the pope in them will say is like, that's demonic, it's mediums, and you shouldn't be interacting with trying to get in contact with the devil. I agree. I didn't know that at the time. Because they could be demons or something like that. demonic, it's mediums and you shouldn't be interacting with trying to get in contact with the devil. I agree. I didn't know that at the time. Because they could be demons or something like that. It's always demons. I take a little bit nuance where I think when you do these things, I think more than likely

it's bad, but you open yourself up to different dimensions and things. It's kind of like the same thing with psychedelics. There's profound benefit when you open yourself up to that, but at the same time, you don't know what else you're letting in to your world. Definitely all bad, I feel like. I think it's all bad, but I've also seen such profound effects on people where it impacts them. And it's like, it could just be deception.

That's the biggest thing that devil does is deception. So it could be like, oh, we can have this miraculous healing here because the devil can do things like that, according to the scripture. So what is that going to incline them to do? They might be like, oh, that this is good. This is great. Let's keep promoting this stuff. And what is that? It's just all deception. So it's, you know, probably best not to do that stuff because it's bad. But like I said, it's a weird line there. Definitely.

Interesting. So you, but you get exposed to like that idea of like, okay, this is like confirming that God's out there and then the shooting happens and you said that solidified it. Like you had said you were, you were, you weren't worried about the other guys because they attacked you. Yeah. You were more worried about like, what's going to happen to me? Am I going to get pinned with something here? Yeah.

Like as part of that, like you're in a room alone with yourself, grappling with this, and you're turning to God with that? Nah. Nah. Like, what do you mean? Is that where you really took it? Well, nah. After that happened, I wasn't just straight like, oh, that was God.

It was just like, well, after a couple days after, I was close type shit. So I was like, yeah, after, like, a couple days after, I was like, I was like close type shit, so I was like, yeah, I was close. And then I was just taking it more serious, and like, I was coming across this other YouTuber who was like, just like educating you about the Bible and the scriptures, and then when I started taking that more serious, then that's when my life started getting, like, much better,

like, I started getting way more money, better relationships, better person, going to the gym and shit, so. Who is that YouTuber? His name is Mark the Messenger, yeah. You know who that is? Never heard of him? Yeah, sir.

Is your mom like religious too, or? No, nobody is. No one is? So you just kind of did this on your own? Yeah, I don't really know where they stand with that, but I know I take it more serious than everybody in my family. But does it also make you, like,

now that you learn more about as you go does it make you Look back on certain things and I'm just talking about scamming or anything But just like lifestyle or decisions you've made in the past and be like damn that was wrong and I should have known that was Wrong now because I didn't know no better and I wouldn't regret it either because all the bad decisions and good decisions led me to Finding it. Alright, so I, this is interesting that you say that. That line, which is always some subset of, I don't have any regrets because it made me the person I am today.

It can be fair, but it can also be used to constantly explain away things you're going to do next. You know what I mean? Oh, like an excuse? Yes. Yeah, it could be, yeah. Preemptive excuse. Do you ever think about that?

No, I mean the way I think about it is just like, I mean, there's no reason to dwell on what you already did, so it's like, you can't really regret it. You gotta just do better in the future, I guess. But like, alright, so you don't feel bad, for example, for the guys who are driving three hours to get pussy that you're scamming, and I understand that. But like other people- I mean, I know it's wrong, yeah. Yes, it's still wrong.

Yeah, I feel that it's wrong. I'm not saying it's not wrong. But I'm saying like then there's other people who you're just hypothetically taking their hard earned money off them because they think they're getting a PS5 or something, and you don't feel bad about that. I don't know why I don't, but I should feel bad about it. So you know you should feel bad about it, but you don't feel bad about that? I don't know why I don't, but I should feel bad about it. So you know you should feel bad about it, but you don't? Only because it's already said and done, so it's like why would I sit here and feel bad

about it? Just don't do it in the future, I guess. Well that's halfway. Yeah, that's something. You're interesting psychologically. I can't really put my finger on it. I feel like I have a strong mindset. You definitely have a strong mindset. But like he's a super villain who's a pretty good guy.

That's one way to put it. I don't know. I have so many different people in here come from all walks of life, all different shit, good, bad and different, whatever it is. But you can usually like after a while, put your finger on what makes someone tick. But I still haven't put my finger on that with you. Pause. But you know what I mean? One thing I want to know from your perspective, Dev, is the emergence of this YN culture, which for all the white guys in the room, you say what YN stands for?

Young. Okay. So it's this new culture that seems to be emerging. It's this kind of nihilistic, risk-taking, nothing good is happening in the world, so I'm gonna get mine mentality. And a lot of these guys are your fans. Cause I know when I did this entrepreneurship course in Milwaukee Middle School,

where every Tuesday morning I come in early and a bunch of eighth grade boys would come in and we talk entrepreneurship. And some of them, I saw them on Instagram because they messaged me, it was like, punch made, Dre, punch made this. And I'm like, oh man, so okay, I kind of see the way they're gravitating. And they were laughing about scamming grandmas and stuff. How do you diagnose the current young gangster YN culture in America that's emerged. Like how do I feel about it? How do you feel about it and what do you make of it?

Like why are these kids coming to this reckless, nihilistic level? It's just like the, it's just the music and like who like they're making everybody look up to. I don't, it's really the rappers and everything and the music and it just keeps getting, it's just social media. It just keeps getting worse and worse.

Do you ever think though that like some of the messaging that's like pushed hard and some of, you know, like drill rap and other things like that creates a, I don't know, like continuous cycle and self-fulfilling prophecy? Yeah, it's because I feel like a lot of those kids, like a lot of people can do better for themselves, but like say like you grew up up on the South Side of Chicago,

you already spawned in with just a whole side that doesn't like you. But say I wanna be a square and work a job and just be regular. I'm not even gonna be able to do that because the person next to you or your brother or your cousins out here doing shit to them, the other side, so then it's literally a risk for me to go to work and get a regular job.

I feel like, and then, yeah. Who did you look up to when you were growing up? Whether it be people you know or people you didn't know that were like, yours or yours or whatever, who did you look up to? I don't really have a single person I looked up to. I just would pay attention to athletes, like NBA and NFL players, but I don't know where I really looked up to them.

Was your dad around? No. Did you ever know him? No. So I was just figuring shit out on my own. Do you know what happened to your dad? No. Does that bother you? No, it doesn't. Never has? No. So you

never bothered not having a dad around growing up? No, because I don't know what it's like to have one. So I was like, how could it bother me? That's like, I don't know. Because I feel like I came out just fine. You're getting there. How old are you? 23, 24? Yeah. OK. You got time. I still got a lot of learning to do, for sure. Yeah. But I feel like I'm on a better route than a lot of other people. Probably, yeah.

You seem to be doing OK for yourself. Like, were you really close with your mom? No. No. No. And you're not close with her today? No, I should be though. I do love my mom, but nah.

You should be. You keep saying you should be on certain things. I've never heard someone put it like that. It's like they're aware of it, but they're like, I'm still not going to do it. No, I'm going to do it. I don't know. I don't know. But you were never close with her growing up?

Nah, I'll just be staying to myself. Did you have siblings? Yeah. How many? Two. You close with them? Nah. I'll just be staying to myself. Did you have siblings? Yeah. How many? Two. You close with them? Nah. I should be though.

Would you classify yourself as kind of a lone wolf? Nah, because I have a bunch of friends that I hang out with every day. So why don't you think you were close with your immediate family? I don't really know. I feel like we're just different. Just a lack of communication in a way?

Yeah. Do you think they care about you and love you? Yeah, definitely. For sure. It's really me. It's me. It's me. That's the problem. That's so interesting. Yeah. Because you're totally aware of it. You're like, yeah, no, it's on me.

I don't know. I just gotta break the barrier down, get close to everybody. Was your mom like working a lot when you were growing up? Yeah. She's in the Army. She's in the Army? Yes, she was. I would not have guessed that. Okay. So she's still in the Army now, you said was? No, she was. Yeah, she retired. How long was she there?

Like 20 years, 30. Wow. Okay, so was. Yeah, she retired. How long was she there? Uh, like 20 years, 30. Wow. Okay, so pretty much like during your whole childhood. That's why I moved everywhere. Yeah. Oh, this is interesting. So were you born by Fort Bragg? I was born in Fort Bragg.

Yeah. Okay. Man, it's crazy you know that. Well, you said North Carolina can only mean one thing. Yeah. She's in the military. Yep. All right, and then Kentucky, were you like, want to round the base again?

Well, so I moved to what do you mean? Well, because she was in the army and you were always moving around like she was from base to base. Oh, yeah, yeah. So we was in North Carolina. I think I was just born there. I don't think I really lived there. They moved to Louisville. Then we moved to Hawaii. Oh, you were in Hawaii, too. Yeah, I did like my whole elementary school in Hawaii. What was that like?

Like paradise. Everybody there is so nice and shit. And then I moved to Houston. And then the city I lived in in Houston was a very wealthy city too. Well, Hawaii wasn't, Hawaii people are just naturally nice. And then Houston, everybody had money that I lived by.

Where were you living? Leek City? Oh I think my buddy Eric might live there actually okay. Yeah, I never been down there So yeah, the schools everything was good, and then I moved to Lexington. It was just a little ghetto And then that's when I kind of that's when I real life kind of set in then what do you mean real life set in like? Just like I seen all types of people like in Hawaii, it's just like Hawaii. It's like their own little world. Then Houston where I lived in Leech City, a bunch of suburban people.

And then Lexington is where it's like suburban, ghetto, all type of shit. It's kind of hard because in some ways you're never able to a one identity, you know what I mean? Because you're spending time across like such a diverse different subset all the time. So you're trying to like at the same time, you got to learn how to take care of yourself. That part's making sense. You got to learn how to be independent, make new relationships to like, you know, get around, I guess, and like be a part of the society around. But you never get a chance to like kind of set your feet and be a part of the society around but you never get a chance to like kind of Set your feet and be a part of one culture

Yeah, I know but I feel like I've seen every cook like I've seen like yeah rich kids Yeah, work is I feel like I understand both sides really good But did that did that also form attitudes towards both like going back to the quote where you're like take from the poor So that I'm rich like does that also come from you saw how, and I'm putting words in your mouth here so correct me if I'm wrong, but maybe you saw how like the rich could take advantage of people

and you're like oh that's how they get ahead and then you'd see the poor get taken advantage of and you're like oh don't wanna be that because that's how they get behind. I feel like I just understand them. I just understand, nah it doesn't really, I don't really think of it like that

but I can understand both sides. Like I feel like. I can understand both sides. Like, I feel like- RG You can understand both sides- AB You can see where they're coming from, I can see where the other people are coming from. RG Like what gets them to where they are? AB Yeah, I feel like yeah, yeah. I feel like yeah, they just misunderstand each other so much. Like the poor people and the rich people are just like, the races, they all just misunderstand

each other. How do they miss, meaning like they're almost marketed to be at odds with each other in a way? Yeah, I feel like, but not so, but there's people can, there's like, they do make that excuse, like, I feel like a lot of people say like black people, like they just start off with no, like, they make, they seem like the systems against them

where a little bit it could be, but for the most most part I feel like I just be making excuses really because yeah cuz like all right look yeah even I could come to somebody right now and be like all right do this for me you'll make $5,000 and I'll still be too lazy to do it or won't do it so it's just like them type of people I don't really feel bad for but also what if it's is there a difference between going to someone with an opportunity economically that's legal versus illegal in your mind? Like if you're coming to them like, oh, I got this latest scam coming up and they're like, fuck that. Like they kind of should be like, fuck that, no?

Yeah, but then I'll go to a person like that with something like that might be shady. And then they'll say no, because they're lazy, but then they'll do something else shady anyway. So it's like, you might as well just make money out of it. I don't know. Was your mom like being with an army background, was she strict? No. No, not at all. Yeah.

I know a lot of people think that she wasn't strict at all though. I mean that's kind of the stereotype. I mean she was, she would try to make sure I get like good grades and she'd make sure I'm always organized and stuff so. It wasn't strict like you can't leave the house or do nothing or do this. Did you get good grades? Yeah, like in elementary and middle school was decent and in high school I was like, this is bullshit.

Yeah, because you seem to have like a, you don't like authority at all. Authority? Oh, what do you like? Which way? Are you a fan of the NYPD? I don't have nothing against them. Because if something happens, my mom's going to call the police and she's going to need them. So I can't have them. There's bad cops and good cops.

But I feel like for the most part, they're good, but some are shady too. But you don't even like getting away from like a stereotypical like, oh, law enforcement or whatever. Like, you don't like people telling you what to do. They can tell me. I would take if they know what they're talking about. Like, if you was like the biggest real estate person in the world, and you were telling me to do something, then I would take your advice.

That could get you personal gain, though. But like, as far as like. Oh, just tell me what to do something then I would take your advice that could get you gained personal gain though But like as far as like I was telling me what to do in general I mean if it's for the better, I don't know it depends what you're telling me what to do You're not that like cuz you're clearly like a really smart guy and I never got in trouble in school either We're you coach. No, I've never high school. No, I only had one ISS more detention detention basically. Okay, only have one never got in trouble. I only had one, I never got in trouble, I never skipped school, I was not a troublemaker. Would your coaches in sports say

that you were a coachable guy? Yeah. Like you'd run through a brick wall for your coaches? I don't know about that, but I was coachable though. He's like, there's a line. I'm not a crash dummy, but I listen to people if I feel like they got my best interest. So that's what I'm saying though. You did well in school in elementary school, middle

school, you're younger, you're kind of doing the motions doing average. Okay. But then you get to high school and you thought it was dumb. Is it because the people who are teaching it, whatever you it's just like, there's no way I'm ever going to use algebra one or anything like all that's the history. I'll research that on my own time when I feel like I need to. And then I don't know, like science, I still never use that either. Science is pretty important. All of them classes is dumb. I feel like we just need to go up until, well, freshman year, after freshman year, I feel

like everything's dumb. There's things that there, I will say this, there's stuff that I thought was so fucking dumb when I was in high school that later I'm like ah Like I still as far as I know haven't used Pythagoras theorem anywhere, but I know it exists I know it is important for someone somewhere to fucking use it But then there's other things would like science like I fucking hated physics in high school I'm like, what is this shit, right and the teacher was actually pretty good too I just it wasn't my thing and now like physics isn't fucking everything and I'm so fascinated by it

And I think part of it is like But that's cuz you like it though. You don't need it to live life I feel like they just feed you a bunch of just general information that you don't need just to like keep you kind of like Middle ground but that's that that's all physics right there. Yeah, but if a person yes what I'm saying though If somebody wants to build that they should be able to take I was gonna be forced to learn shot Don't want to learn see we should have like, you know, like I feel like they're more like education Yeah, they just feed you a bunch of information just so you're just like a robot basically because like I worked one job in my life and it just felt like

Just like school so I'm like damn so that's what that's what it was at Home Depot. Oh, you worked on it? That's my favorite store. Yeah, my lawyer made me to do it to help my case. The robbery went. Oh, God. Go work at Home Depot? Yeah. That'll get the judge every time. You didn't take anything while you were there, did you? No. That's good. It was only for like a month. It was a month? Yeah. It's a long month for you. Yeah, I got fired. Yeah, you got fired? Yeah, that was way before rapping anything.

What'd you get fired for? So I was with, I met a friend there and he showed me all the loopholes like, all right, you can take a longer break. You can take a break for like an hour. And then he showed me all that shit. And then we will get in. And if you come late, like you got instead of punching the clock, you got to got to write it down or whatever because the system it won't pick up in the system so like we'll come in late like who's legitimately coming in late or whatever and writing our stuff on the system or me writing on the

paper and The supervisor was taking it and hiding it saying he doesn't see it and give us less hours for we work for Some other friend got on his ass and then somehow his tires got slashed. And then- Wait, the supervisor? Yeah. Somehow. Somehow, it wasn't me.

Wasn't him either, I don't know what happened. Okay. Wasn't the person I was with either, yeah, so. And then, then the next day, or like the next couple of days, and they're like, yeah, you gotta go. Did they know you were there because you had like a court thing going on too? it'll pop up on the background shake, right?

So you had a you had a tight leash there already. Did you have an ankle monitor? No Yeah, have you ever had an ankle monitor? No, I don't get in trouble for you You're good at dodging for sure real quick. I gotta go to the bathroom, but we'll be right back. All right, we're back Tommy What were you just saying hood videos are becoming almost impossible to do right now Why and that used to be our forte and if you look at the last three months I think we've only done one video in the hood and there's a few reasons one is We're starting to get this phenomenon where we show up to a shoot and there's nine vloggers there's 30 other people standing by and

It's like there's too many cooks in by, and it's like there's too many cooks in the kitchen and it's becoming, it just, it doesn't, there's not an authentic feel anymore. Like I like, I don't want to stage a shot. I don't want to set up. I just like, when we rolled up on squeeze bends, he just was there. We instantly are starting to film. Like even a couple of times with, with these car guys, like there's so many people in the

background, so many vloggers that it's like, hey guys, can we move the 20 people over here and we gotta start? And I just want things to be as natural as possible. But the other thing is there's an unreliability factor working with the hood sometimes that is so hard to overcome. I had these, I won't say which gang, but a very well-known gang out in Vegas,

one out in Los Angeles. Each time, hey, we set this up months in advance. Even when I was coming to New York, I had two different projects we were going to come to and go through them and interview these guys. Tell them a month in advance, put it on your calendar. This is when we're doing it. Follow up with them a week before, four days before. And then the day of, oh, I'm out in Connecticut. Can we do it there? Or, oh, the guys aren't ready yet. What do you mean they're not ready yet? We had two months to organize this

and I don't mind the transition because we're getting into a lot more investigative pieces about cults or corrupt mayors or things like that. But it was our bread and butter of the channel for a long time and it's amazing to me how much more difficult it's becoming to work there. Part of the problem, and it's not your fault, it's just that you've gotten so big too

that you're now a guy that people look at as clout, right? So when you were- Clout lords, dude. When you were first doing it though, it was like this totally organic thing, you're going in, in you're getting the story and then all those things blow up video with you blows up video with the drivers blow up You know all these different and then the one in st. Louis like all this stuff So now all these people hit you up and they're like, oh Tommy G's coming and they all want to pull up with their people And then sometimes they're just hitting you up and they don't even have a plan of like what this is actually gonna look like They just want to know like oh Tommy G's coming to film with us and they might fuck you over like you said

it feels weird because I would rather be completely unknown and just get in and Be able to hit this story so smoothly like it's right. There's There I think becoming a bigger platform Becoming a bigger platform in some ways is a blessing because there's so many more doors that are getting opened up right now. Like my close ratio of whoever I'm hitting up, whether it's a billionaire or a car thief,

it doesn't matter, in between, like the close rate is a lot higher because we have a platform, but there's a lot more unintended consequences that come with it that are, I take it, like part of me is, hey, take it as a compliment. The consequences that come with it that are I take it like part of me is hey take it as a compliment the fact that people even want to show up or Do their own vlog of you I get it and I'm happy that people even think that it's worth

I'm worth talking to in a way, but I'd rather just be that smooth criminal that rolls in undercover Hits the story boom. I'm out. Yeah, what made you want to do the video with Tommy back when it came up? Like why him? I could just tell he was genuine and not like, I don't know, like police games or just like, if I asked him not to ask me something to take some of the video, I feel like he would. I could just tell he's a good guy. Who asked who again to do this? Did you ask?

I hit you up. I think within 30 minutes we were on the phone. Yeah, facts. Cause I just saw this, I was seeing all the pictures of him outside ATM with stacks of cash like this high. And I was just like, I can't believe this guy is out. He's a real life GTA character. And I like to interview those type of guys. But you're a lot calmer than a GTA character. I got to give you that. You're not like you're not shakeable.

You know, strategic. Right. You're not running like, you're not shakeable. You know, strategic. Right. You're not running around fucking beeping at chicks and having their fucking titties fall out and then hit them with a baseball bat. No, wait till the Brandon Buckingham video. Oh, yeah. He's like, another side coming out. Nah, that video is crazy, yeah.

You might see some titties. And you don't know when it's coming, you said? Nah, I gotta hit them up. I edited my version already. Oh, you have a version? Yeah, because I'm vlogging too, so. Right, Darius is out there filming all the... Okay, so you're gonna simultaneously drop it together?

Yeah, I'm gonna wait for him. I want him to drop it first and then I'll drop after. Yeah. Tommy, you brought it up though. What's going on with our dear friend Tiffany Hen? The very first time you were in here, you just dropped that first video with her back in February slash March 2024. And now you went back and did another video with her as she was about to be voted out. Is that right? Well first, I can't even believe that she let us go film with her.

Yeah, can you tell people who she is? So Tiffany Hennier is the notorious super mayor of Dalton, Illinois. She has gone on spending sprees. She lives basically a first-class lavish lifestyle off of her taxpayer and it went from being her county or her city was in a four million dollar surplus before she took office to now it's in a four million dollar deficit. There was an eight million dollar swing and it's because she's living like a third world crime lord, really. And she's just one of these characters that you could confront her about the most plain fact.

Like for example, buying these Tahos at an egregious price, that's not me. I take out her signature. I wore a purple suit for this. It was a very important story. Take out my purple suit, present the paperwork of her own signature." And she's like, that wasn't me. And so she just has this legendary criminal mayor. It could be an auto pen, Tommy. I hear they're using those these days. I hear she might have to look into that. But Chicago is already a place that's famous for

its corruption. And the fact that now we're talking in May and she still hasn't gotten swooped in on by the feds, I'm actually really surprised. I thought it was gonna be happening somewhere by mid-April. She lost the election after you filmed with her, right? It was right after? We filmed the day of the election and then released it after. She had you come film on the day of the election.

We filmed once with her two or three weeks before the election and then we filmed again the day of the election. We covered the drama her two or three weeks before the election and then we filmed again the day of the election. We covered the drama in the town and she lost in a landslide. And thank God, because when I was talking to her, she's such a good manipulator that I almost wondered if I had gotten everything wrong about her.

Cause she exists in this whole other reality bubble where I started to wonder like, is this lady the next Mother Teresa? Like I wasn't fully fooled by her, but part of me was like, was I too harsh with this lady or what? You were dancing with her. I was getting worried. I saw that video.

I was like, Tommy, what happened, bro? People thought that I got swooped, but that's the thing about, I would say in a way she's a cult leader. She's a cult leader that ran a town. And when you're meeting with people like that, when you see all the stories about them, you assume they're going to be evil, they're going to be bad. Most of these people are very charismatic and likeable, and that's part of their charm, and that's how they function.

And so seeing her, how she planted the day, hey, I'm going to go door knocking. Door knocking is when you hit the entire street and canvas the voters. Hey, I'm Tiffany Henre, Do you want to vote for me? She would pick people that got free stuff from her and we'd go talk to her, them, and they'd sing their praises for her. So he's like, yeah, I approve. To me, she's just an amazing character to see in history because they emerge every once in a while. And the fact that we got our hands on her and got to profile her story. Just like Dev, in a moment of history when scamming

was at this crazy internet sensation, to be able to be there in that moment and profile that person to me is being in the right place at the right time and the universe opening up doors for you. Didn't you feel like I was a terrible person at first? Before I got to you, I'm like, this guy is such a piece of shit. Like God. And during the video too, right? You were doing things

that definitely deserved hard questions. Yeah. I feel like he wasn't fucking with me and then after. But now you like him. Oh no, I really like him. We're good friends. You know, there's a lot of people that you make assumptions about based off of the internet story or based off of what they do

I don't I've talked to killers that I like I've talked to gun dealers. I like like yeah There's what kinds of killers? Block shooters guys that are the guy on their team that if someone needs to get tagged that they're the ones that say I'm gonna Play the game. Yeah, I mean they'd be like well. They just be goofy and regular They'd be goofy and regular and shoot they have a lot of fun. I mean, they'd be like, well, they'd just be goofy and regular. They'd be goofy and regular and shoot. They have a lot of fun. Yeah. But you'd be surprised at how nice and how much hospitality a killer can treat you with.

Super loyal to. Yeah. I have some of these guys, like there's a couple of guys in the Latin Kings where I know what they've done. There's even video footage of some of their actions. He calls me up and he's extremely nice. Hey gang, how you doing? How's your family doing?

How's your son doing? Do you think that is the side of humanity that they have? Because we're talking about like the worst types of things now, right? Is that a side of humanity they have or do you think that's a side of sociopathy they have that allows them to play that role? I don't think people are one-dimensionally evil, often. I think that's a rare character that you find. Most people, even if you talk about profiling cartel stories, you think it's this guy always

beheading people and doing crazy stuff, but then you go to his family house, they're cooking in the family, they have a kid's birthday party, there's a pinata up in a tree, and there's a very normal family function happening, but when dad goes to work, he does unspeakable things. So I know that there's also, I'm providing value to them, so of course they're gonna go out of their way to be nice to me. Like I'm sure if I was just,

if I didn't have a YouTube platform, sure, I'd probably get a different experience, but even without YouTube, I think if you were to treat these guys kindly, even some of these shooters, they are hoping hoping for love like they want connection to people so many guys even in their own gang Like when push comes to shove and they're the ones that go to jail their gang isn't really Giving putting money on their commissary doing anything never books They never do and you've seen this with some of your guys that you've hung out with Chicago

He was a certified threats all over Chicago for the last year You built some really good relationships as As soon as something happens, this game disappears. And so if you're the guy that actually shows them love and maintains a relationship with them, they're very loyal to you. Definitely. So you don't, I think the thing in different ways that you and I run into doing what we do is like we get to know people really well, right? I have people come in here sit me for hours on end You go to where people are and you're talking with them seeing their life whatever seeing all the good sides of them as well

And I struggle with this a lot where you run into it where? Everyone can show you their best self or show you that they have the capability Yeah to be their best self and as someone who like loves people, I want to always see the good side. And I wanna be like, you know what, that guy's all right. But I also have to find a way to try to be objective to where like when someone really is often doing bad stuff. Like if you were still coming in here

and doing all these scams all the time, you'd walk out of here and I'd have to be like, man, I really like Dev, but he's still a scumbag. You just gotta be able to read people. I feel like you've talked to enough people too. I feel like I'm really good at reading people too. I can know when they're putting on like a fake front. What do you think that is? Do you think that's from like having to be around so many different types of people?

Yeah, like just moving around everywhere and having so many different friends and seeing so many and then hearing their stories, talking to them, hearing their friends' friends story. I feel like I've seen and heard so much. I can just look at somebody, talk to them for like five minutes and kind of know exactly how they are. I think you're also striking me like watching you when you came in here today for a while before we getting on camera. You're a listener.

You're listening to what everyone else is saying. You're not one of these people. I got to peep the scene first. Right. Isn't that one of the laws of powers to stay silent and to observe? Probably. Yeah. I can't remember. I read that book, but I've read it too. Yeah. Hard read. It's too Machiavellian for me. It's heavy. It looks at every person as if they're trying to manipulate you or like I talked to this billionaire guy and... Tadla? Yeah. And I saw on the, I saw his book on the, on the book between the podcast table, it was 48 Laws of Power.

I'm like, not you. You can't like… That's not a good book. It's not a good book. It's not a roadmap of how to treat people or build relationships. It's an evil book. It's a cautionary tale, similar to how Dev is, he's graciously out of the goodness of his heart providing advice to people that protect themselves.

That's a book you read and you're like, okay, this is how to protect people. Graciously, out of the goodness of your heart. Yeah, 100%. You know what, I just realized it, Alessi. I'm never gonna unsee this, Jalen Hurts. That's what it is. Jalen, I'm playing. You even carry yourself the same way, quiet, can't really tell the emotions, what's going on.

You do the same thing with your lips and everything. When you're done making a point, I'm not telling you where I stand I'm never gonna unsee that holy shit. He's a basketball player, right? He's the quarterback for the for the Eagles, okay I'll be watching too much sports either the Super Bowl champion Philadelphia Eagles in this household to you Tommy. God bless Philadelphia Oh, you're a Eagles fan. Yeah, okay. I grew up in South Jersey Yeah, you know you grew up in South Jersey. Nice, nice, nice. You look like you grew up in South Jersey.

What? I didn't hear what you said. I said South Jersey is a beautiful location. It is a great location. New Jersey is a great location. Yeah, if we like, when he talks though, when he talks, like he's so, no matter whether it's high or low,

he's the same emotion every time. And he just kind of like does the littlest smirk at you at the end of everything. Yeah, a little bit of a twitch right here. Yeah, yeah. I can't unsee that now, that's funny as shit. But Tommy, you're saying so when you were going in to do the video with Dev, you thought he was a terrible guy. Dev thinks while you're doing it, you still probably think he's a terrible guy.

But then you become friends. What turns you? Like what made you be probably think he's a terrible guy, but then you become friends. What turns you? Like what made you be like, I like this guy? You know what? That is a tough battle because in similar, you talk to these spies that have done who knows what to people overseas and, but you'll have them over here seven times. You'll go out to eat with them. You'll hang out with them.

It's one of those things where if I met a guy that was stealing my car, I didn't want to just kill him or choke him out or you know, but because it's not happening to me, there's no personal animosity. And also I think people just have, especially when it comes to making money, people have, they're dialing on their way of making money. But outside of that, there's a different side of themselves they show that is redeemable. Even the car thieves, you know, okay, you go out every night, you were just with these guys at 1am in a hospital parking lot last night that had a hellcat.

Piece of shit. But I bet if I caught you at a burger restaurant, we were just having a meal around a table, I bet I would have a good time with you. And I've come to realize about most people. Most people I think- But that doesn't necessarily make them good. No, these aren't guys that I would invite to my son's first birthday party. What about me?

I can come, right? I have to get my representative at Chase to see if they approve the visit. But yeah, Devon can come to my house. I also know that my wallet's the visit. Yeah, Devon could come to my house. I also know that my wallet's not going to be missing when Devon comes to my house. You do know that. I'm 99.9% sure. Because I never met you before, so I can tell you everything was hidden this morning. I've never had to do that before.

Well, Matt Cox. Are you serious? Yeah, Matt Cox, I did that when I was still in my parents' house and Matt was coming for the first time. I hid some of my dad's credit cards and stuff. You know, Matt Cox? You and Matt Cox need to do a podcast together. He's a scammer? Yeah. Can we pull up Matt Cox's Wikipedia? I know Bernie Madoff. Was he one of the most famous? Matt Cox is my friend who I swear to God has reformed. That was his FBI most wanted poster. Let's go to the Wikipedia page.

Was he on meth? No, he looks like he was, but- They took his worst mugshot and posted that. Police do that, by the way. Are you serious? They told you that? I just, I took a mugshot photo one time that I thought was going to be badass and then I looked at it and it was-

I never released it. Wait, what'd you try to do with the mugshot? Like me mug? I think maybe I smiled because I was like, I'm going to put this on a t-shirt and this is going to be so sick and I'm going to sell some merch. The photo was so bad, I'm like, ah, yeah, that idea is on the mug burner. He later took that picture because he was on the run from the FBI for like three years. He later took that picture and as a fine arts major in college, he majored in fine arts,

he likes to say that. He made a new laminated, I get, what is it? Like the lanyard or whatever for the Salvation Army and invented some position called like a statistical survey or something. And he would go up to homeless guys and say, all right, what's your name, social security number? With that picture. And they would give it to him

and then he would get their identities and be on the run. He was next level. And what you guys share in some of the work you've done is really good social engineering skills. What do you mean? Putting someone in a position where like if they're going to give you money, most people, if I just confront you directly, Julian, send me 500 bucks. No, you're not going to do it. But if I socially engineer a situation where you want to give me the money, like, hey, you, you're not going to do it. But if I socially engineer a situation where you want to give me the money, like, hey, you think you're going to get something out of it. You think I'm legit. That's what a true scam artist is or a con artist is, is they create an atmosphere that would something otherwise unbelievable becomes believable.

Would you concur with that? Yeah. Did you ever plot out how to do that or was it just natural? You'll just learn on the way. Like you'll suck at first and then you'll learn on the way. You'll get better. Yeah, you'll get better. Little practice. He's a finesser.

Yeah. Now Matt is, so his story is that he never committed a crime until he was 30 years old and he was a mortgage broker with a wife and young kid at 30, and his boss whited out a number on one of his mortgages. He was like behind on his bills, and she's like, ah, sorry, this mortgage that he had just negotiated isn't going to pass. He was like, oh my God, I'm not going to be able to pay my bills. She's like, no problem.

So she took out, white out, and just changed a number. Like a small little, you know, it's like a small form of fraud, but like they... it was something so small that, you know, maybe you get fired for that, but you wouldn't get arrested. And he saw that and went, oh, shit. So what started as just changing a number very quickly got to, he got creative and went all the way down the rabbit hole and pretty soon was stealing identities, creating fake real estate empires all down in Florida.

Finally, like, gets caught and decides to go on the run. He's on the run for three years. stealing identities, creating fake real estate empires, all down in Florida, finally like gets caught and decides to go on the run. He's on the run for three years. This is all a six-year period. He's on the run for three years, got plastic surgery, the whole bit. Are you serious? Wow. From the FBI, gets caught, gets sentenced to 26 years in prison, goes into prison, becomes

one of the most prolific dry snitches in the history of prison. He's very open about it and used any information he could to get the fuck out of there. He was at Coleman. Long story short, there was a lot of other crazy shit that happened, but he got his sentence down to 13 years, still did that whole thing. While he was in prison, he's a brilliant guy. Matt would have been great at anything he ever did. So he became an author, because he was in prison at Coleman, which was like the Ivy League of fucking crime. Like, he had one of everything there. So these famous people were there,

and he would write their books and, like, publish them, even from behind bars. And one of the books he wrote was called Once a Gunrunner, about Ephraim de Vroli, which then Warner Brothers stole and made into the movie War Dogs. That was that book. And so Matt and Efrem later sued each other, but also then at the same time, we're both

suing Warner Brothers together for like misusing the whatever. But Efrem was fucking crazy. Anyway, so Matt, the reason I bring this up is because he realized a couple things about himself they never knew. First of all, he was like five foot four, so he's got like short man's complex and everything. So he always had narcissistic tendencies, but he was diagnosed as like narcissistic megalomaniacal personality disorder. And he's very, that's what it's called, I guess.

And he's very open about this and very self aware of it. Like to the point, like I'm kind of proud of like how much he's like constantly keeping that in check knowing what he could be capable of. Yeah. Have you ever thought about not necessarily narcissistic magma, like megalomaniacal personality disorder, but have you ever thought about you maybe being predisposed to having narcissistic tendencies or things like that that could lead you to potentially hurt other people without you realizing you're doing it? things like that that could lead you to potentially hurt other people without you realizing you're doing it.

So, like, what's really a narcissist? Like somebody who just only cares about themselves? In the simplest terms, I would say that's probably fair. Nah, because I really help a lot of people around me. You do help a lot of people around you? Just like I'll put them on the things, help them make money. They're down on their last. Help them out. Help somebody, people on their last, help them out.

Help somebody, people's moms out, they need help. Somebody goes to jail, help them with that. I will say one thing in his defense too. He was one of the biggest donors to a wrestling charity I had. Oh, that's cool. So you did, where do you think that comes from, putting other people on?

Cause, like I said, like growing up around everybody, I know like I can understand like where they come from. I've seen all sides of life I feel like in America at least, I don't know. I see like the poor and the rich. So you're okay in the past, you were hypothetically okay with doing things that you probably knew were wrong to get ahead. And part of the way you justified it was what you might do with those means or the, I don't know, power.

No, I just did it for selfish reasons for sure. But what comes with that, I will help somebody if they need help. But I wasn't getting the money, like I'm only getting this to help other people. Is part of that like you never got any help and you wish other people would have helped you at different points of your life? Dr. Justin Marchegiani Nah, I mean, like help as in what? Dr. Justin Marchegiani I don't know, like you maybe felt alone and so you want other people to feel like they—you're looking out for them, you know what I mean?

Like the things you didn't get? Dr. Justin Marchegiani Uh— Dr. Justin Marchegiani I'm just picking away at things here. I don't know. Dr. Justin Marchegiani I don't know. I think I just feel—I just feel for people. I can just here. I don't know. I think I just feel for people. I can just understand. I don't know.

So would you say you have a lot of empathy? Yeah, sometimes, yeah. Some selective empathy. Once I've learned with, I was talking to these Afghani guys in California that had done some high level robbery of Chinese triad grow operations. And it was like, if you're not in their circle, zero empathy, I'm out for my own gain, but in my circle, my family eats good. Would you say your mentality is kind of like that?

For the most part, yeah. For the most part. But I will help people on the outside too, but I don't know, you never know who you're helping out. So it's like you come out, like help the wrong person or end up there, end up fucking you over or something. Sometimes it's hard to help people too. Giving money to people is hard. There's a certain thing that I've learned where the receiver of help can sometimes resent the giver and add a dynamic to the relationship

that you wish you never entered into. Yeah, definitely. So you've run into that. Yeah, like people just trying to take advantage of you or like then they end up being jealous or just getting like secret animosity because they feel like you're trying to little bro them or something.

So yeah. So what started as, hey, I'm going to help you, turns into a situation where they don't even like you anymore. Yeah, and then they start feeling obligated. Yeah, they expect it. They start feeling obligated. Or like you give somebody an inch and then they'll start taking, do way more. Like, yeah, they expect it, they start feeling obligated, or like you give somebody an inch and then they'll start taking, do way more, like yeah. Yeah, they do.

Take it to the extreme. So it's like, I've definitely learned a lot. I used to be way more helpful towards other people before, but now I just be knowing a lot of people would just be like, bullshitting, they're just, they don't want to help themselves, so why would I help them? They just want to take from me for the temporary moment, and then they're going to go back to the same and ask me again for something. I think you find that it's rare you're ever really going to help somebody with money,

but where you really can help someone with is mentorship and knowledge. And that's the purest type of student-teacher relationship or have taken someone under your wing. If they want to learn everything you know, they want to ask questions, they want to be in your shoes for as much time as they can and follow you around. That's a person that I feel like is gonna take it for themselves and hopefully try and outshine you in the future, which is what every teacher wants

of a student. But the people that just want resources again and again and don't change at all, that's the worst type of person to give to. Yeah, but even those type of people, cause that's what I'll do more. I don't really give out money. I'd rather teach you exactly what I'm doing.

And I'll teach them that. And it will still be lazy or half-ass do it. Or I don't know. It got to be a certain person that really wants it enough. I send people, you give your information to them, and then they'll end up just being in the way type shit. And then you're not even using it to the fullest. You don't want to better yourself for nothing.

Like you're just a waste of, you're just wasting it. Do you think the world is automatically, I don't want to say this. Do you think there's always just going to be people who are inherently weak and people who are inherently strong? Or do you think everyone has the ability to be one or the other? Everybody has the ability to be one or the other, but people just like being comfortable and just, it's just easier to be weak I guess I don't know. Mm-hmm a question. I was thinking about a jog yesterday was What percentage of our suffering in life is self-imposed?

And a lot of it I think for most people especially let's just call it United States where we're not in a civil war something Great, like I'm not getting machete tribes visiting my village to cut us to pieces Like would you say most people in America, most of their suffering is self-imposed? Definitely, I mean, some people grow up a certain way and their parents were a certain way, so sometimes they don't know no better. But even you could come to somebody like that,

show me exactly how you did it, give them a step-by-step and they'll still just be like, I'm good doing what I'm doing. I feel like it's definitely self-imposed. And people who are depressed and shit, they'll be depressed and fat too. So it's like, just go to the gym. If you just go to the gym every day,

you don't even gotta be skinny or nothing, but you'll feel better about yourself. You have to do something every day that builds yourself up. Well, you are definitely going through your life story and all the different steps of it. You're definitely a go-getter. People don't have to tell you to go do something. You're, if you get an idea like, oh, I need to do this, this is what it could do for me, regardless of what

the moral implications are along the way, like you're able to do that. There's other people who, and I wonder about this sometimes, is it like the environment, the instant environment around them that they're raised in, or is it just, they're kind of inherently born with that gene where they just don't have that and they don't do that and they're like you said, they're going to sit there and be comfortable and fucking miserable in many cases. Rob Markman Yeah. Well I feel like yes, some people like where they're born at, they don't see nobody else like do big things or like be a doctor or anything so they feel like that's completely

out of their like range of things. But then it's like alright, the people they do see is drug dealers and scammers, but they won't even do that either. Or they won't work a job either. It's like, I don't know. The opportunities they do get, they don't want to take. Yeah. Sometimes though, this is one of my favorite topics to ponder on, nature versus nurture,

environment versus like free will there's a story i've told before on the podcast my buddy josh grew up in the bronx grew up in the projects of the bronx and what he was really lucky to have is that he had both parents at home and they were fucking amazing parents and his mom was actually a teacher at one of the local schools so he was smart when he was coming up and and he was able to get into a program in fifth grade where basically he got into the high level program, which then eventually allowed him to go to high school outside the city as well. So he got all these amazing opportunities. And he tells a story how the first time, like he lived outside the city

as a freshman in high school, the first time he came home, maybe it was Thanksgiving or winter break, whatever it was, he comes back to the Bronx and when he gets back onto like a couple blocks away from his house, he sees coming up on the corner one of his buddies they grew up with. Right away, you know, he knows he's part of the gang now, like slinging drugs and whatever. And his buddy sees him coming and gets like a serious look on his face walks up to Josh Dabs him up. Hey, what's up, man? How you doing? No, it's good to see you really glad to see you doing well Like he had a full understanding of what Josh was doing and how hard he was working and the opportunity he had

We said to Josh he said Now walk across the street and do not look back at me meaning like this 1415 year old kid had a full understanding of like, this is what my life is, this is my only option, this is what I can do, but I'm not gonna pull my friend who's got the opportunity to be in something else down into this, meaning like he, it was like such a selfless thing, but at the same time, it's like what becomes of him. That's all like in his mind, that's the only option he had. I'm not condoning, you know being in a gang and selling drugs or whatever But I think about that a lot because I'm like, all right, he didn't quite get the opportunity

Josh super hard to write that's how I like chief keep did it like how he made it out and just cut everybody off and then Because it's hard to cut everybody off too. Like so I don't know much about that. He cut everybody off Yeah, so it's just like this imagine Imagine you're on the South Side, right? You already have South Side, Chicago, really any hoods, but I'm going to just use that one for an example. And it's like, all right, your only option is either that you think is go play sports or rap. So then you're not going to make sports, so then you start rapping.

You're finally getting a little bit of money and everybody around you is like this with their hands out. So the little bit of money you do have, you can't use it to invest or nothing because you don't even know anything. You don't even know anybody in your family that's ever invested in anything. So you have nobody to ask. And then, or if you do try to reach out to somebody,

they'll probably finesse you too. So you give all the money out to everybody, then you have nothing, then you sign another deal, you might got more money, and then just still more people asking, all right, but if you don't want to do that, and you want to cut everybody off, it's hard to cut your family and friends off that you grew up with and

that you're sleeping on the floor with and you literally starve with them. They might have gave you like, y'all literally shared food and everything, so it's hard. Either way, they're both hard, but I feel like the better option, I guess you have to cut everybody off. I don't know. These rappers will take a lot of guys with them that don't have any role to play on the team and that's where they get drained. I saw a post from YTBFat, are you familiar with him? He was one of the more

pop and gangster rappers that have come on the scene in the last couple of years. And he's like, yeah, people see the big paydays, but they don't see the 50, 60K overhead where I'm putting guys in hotels, I'm paying rent, guys want clothes, I'm getting cool clothes, they want the clothes too. And all of a sudden this huge rap deal that on paper, oh, I'm a millionaire now, I'm getting dwindled down the toilet. And I think that's something where, especially guys from the streets struggle with, because then you have all these random guys hanging on

where, well, I was in the studio with you and you recorded Don't Like, and it was like, yeah, well, yeah, you were smoking weed with us and eating the food we had in the studio, but you didn't write a melody, you didn't help me with a bar, you just were kind of a fan which is really important. Like you were in my music videos, like I had a squad behind me, that's important. Now they'll say you switched up if you're telling them that. Yeah, I think that's the biggest trap of the hood too with someone that becomes successful

is there's so much more responsibility that they feel like they have that drains the bucket. And then everybody around you is still doing crimes and shit, so they drag you down. Say you're a big rapper and then your people or somebody dies, then you might be like, all right, I'm grown now and I have money, we're just going to take this L and just move on. But everybody else is in your ear like, man, hell no, fuck that, we need this and that, we need to put money on his head and shit like that, so it's just hard, this is like this all the time.

And that's happening a lot in rap news right now. In Memphis, there's a big case with the young Dolph death. Oh yeah, what's the latest there? I'm not too keen on all of the details, but basically, I think someone put a hundred on a rival rapper's head, only paid the guy like 800 bucks, and the guy did it the day before his daughter's birthday party, so he could have gifts for his daughter.

Only got paid like 800 bucks, and then never saw the rest of it. And then of course, he snitched on the guy that hired him, and it's a whole house of cards. And that's what I noticed too, I don't know if we need to go down this rabbit hole, but culturally, I feel like the squads that have the best structure are the Mexican gangs. I feel like-

Definitely. They're the most loyal and they work the hardest too. There's more of a hierarchy where if you, like, hey, I need to get approval for this. I can't get out of line. I can get beaten down if I step out of line. There seems to be a little bit more of a process to their game. Definitely.

So you think that if it has to exist, that would be the way for it to exist? If there has to be a gang, that it has some sort of structure. Well that's a double edged sword. Here's something to think about. We're talking to a guy, one of the florist twins who he helped bring down Al Chapo. He's coming in here, yeah. So here's what happens, and you've seen this with gangs in Chicago, all over the country.

When you take out the leader, now all of a sudden there's fractions, there's factions in fighting. So was it better to have one powerhouse leader leading a cohesive gang, or is it better to have, look at Sinaloa, is it better to have two, three factions fighting tremendously within each other? And again, is it better to have two, three factions fighting tremendously within each other? And again, the law enforcement side is like, well, we can't just not get the leaders if

we get the opportunity, but then the aftermath of instead of having gangs like Bloods, Crips, Gangster Disciples that are pretty, you know, there's a few teams on the football field. Now you have all these tiny little cliques of five guys, six guys, they're all shooting. It's a free for all. And now it's even more reckless and dangerous. Would have been better just to have a few teams on the field rather than. Double you know versus the double you don't.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, and it relates to everything. You look at world leaders and stuff like that. Like look at some of the people we've taken out. Like Saddam Hussein was a very bad guy. There's no doubt about that. And then we destabilize a region. We destabilize the entire region. the whole country too, as well. Like I will say objectively,

after him, it's worse. You know what I mean? Which is like a crazy thing to think about. But it's like, you know, you see a regime doing horrible things to people, you want to make it better, but are you going to be able to find a solution there you go see a gang you see a gang leader who's taking fucking videos with Sean Penn and getting on the cover of Rolling Stone and bragging about all the shit he does and rolling heads in the street but like you know if five heads are going to roll it hate you hate to say this but that's better than a hundred heads rolling you know so what are you going to do when you get rid of them? Now the El Mayo thing, that's another one. It's like, all right, well now he's gone. He was like the grandfather in the hills with the cartels. Who's replacing him? You know? It's, it's, it's hard. We're trying to get some different stories in Mexico and probably

the most likely cartel. This is like saying Lord Voldemort's name, like you don't even wanna say some of their names. Alisco? The New Generation guys? Yeah. Those guys are the most terrifying to me. They're fucking wild. What I understand.

But even within like a group that, okay, this is a traditional Sinaloa area, to know that they're infighting so hard that it's not even safe to go there. It's, once you open up Pandora's box, you can't put it back in. You can't. You can't. It's crazy that that country is right there and we have like such crazy drug problems

here that are stemming from there. And then you have people that are pressing pills and giving them to people. Yeah. Oh. No, not me. What's that song? Deborah song? Deborah? That song you made?

Who's your favorite junkie? Oh yeah, what was that song you made? It was called Long Live Deborah or something like that. Punch Made Dev has a, it's a artistic masterpiece called Long Live Deborah. Long Live Deborah. You haven't seen it? It's called Long Live Heather. Long Live Deborah. You haven't seen it? Long Live Heather. Oh Heather.

Do you own all your own music? Yeah, I never sang. Okay. So we can play your music. Yeah. We're good. Can we pull up this song? What's it called?

This is the most egregious rap song I may have ever seen in my life. Long Live Heather. The one that you, the worst one you've ever seen. Arguably. That's saying something. It's Up There With Kim by Eminem. Oh my god. I know. All right. Arguably. That's saying something. It's up there with Kim by Eminem. Oh my god. I know.

Alright. Is this it? I think I took the reupload. You can click on that one. I was just trolling this video. The third one? The reupload? Yeah, yeah, hit that.

Alright, let's see what we got here. Is this volume on? Alright, we can have that on the screen. Yeah, yeah, keep it. We can have that on the screen. Sometimes I think that I should quit but I know that's an effort if you knew the pros I made off music you selling forever. I quit pressing pills in my room that I threw out my dressing With the smell I pray after I kill him with pills. I won't go to hell. It's welcome kicking in my daughter day I'll sit in the stairs. They don't find seven different drugs and weed in a scale But I'm alive. I told you I care. Tell me where the junkie staying at and I'm pulling up there If I don't then that'd be rare give some lace pills out for free and then sit there and stare

I'm trying to see somebody die today, but it ain't my fault. Everyone's trying to get high today I'm trying to boost the stats to five a day if you take this and his family won't be having father's day Never I'm making it legal like make America fit in all again. I'm gonna drop the recipe for perks. Let's hit all the Where does that come from I was just trolling you just wrong. Yeah. All right, so none of that's like personal experience. It's just fucking around. That happens in my satire. Yeah, it's trolling. But that type of stuff happens in Kentucky.

Of course. Yeah. It happens all over the country now. Yeah. So you but like, I think two things are happening right there. You're pointing out how common sickly common this stuff is while also like making a joke out of it too. Yeah. But it's pretty serious, a lot of people are losing.

I mean, I got a couple prayer cards out there, friends who lost their lives to this stuff. I hear you. But you just view it as like, you- No, it's not a joke to me, but then again, they shouldn't be taking pills. But there's, again, there's also a lot of people who they went and got their fucking arm fixed

You know their broken arm fixed and the doctor idiot doctor gave him a prescription to whatever the fuck and so it starts with The doctor then we gotta get on the doctor's ass Absolutely, and it starts with the companies above that as well We talk about the sacklers all the time here and the legalized cartel that happens in this country for sure Yeah, but like there's a lot of you know And and are there people who make one bad decision that it leads to, you know, being addicted? For sure, and I have empathy for that as well.

Me too, me too. But, you know, do you ever worry about sending not necessarily the wrong message, but like the wrong tone with stuff, if you're just trolling? Yeah, that's why I took that shit down. I don't make music like that no more. That's why I said reupload. You actually took that song down. Yeah, I took a lot of all that stuff like that down

Hmm, that's interesting. Yeah, so it's something in you is like, all right, that's past the line Sometimes I just had to do it so I could go viral And then you know, that was that was my second you knew that cuz it you did it cuz it would go. Yeah I don't yeah, but there's a certain niche of rap, and we saw this with Eminem, where you say the craziest thing you can and it's kind of a comedy... It sounds serious, but it's also like you're sitting in the studio with your friends and after you say a bar, everyone's laughing and having a good time. It's a fucked up humor of a rap genre.

You know what I'm talking about? Yeah. I feel it. And those songs are fun. I enjoy listening to some of that because I find it hilarious. Yeah. Yeah, he sings them too. Yeah, I don't make music like that anymore though. What are you making now? Just music about making money and stuff. Not like that super trolly like. Yeah. Like that stuff I don't really make no more. But you're making money now investing you were telling me I have a couple businesses Yeah, you got a couple businesses. Yeah, I won't say I'm here. I'm on here. Yeah, they aboveboard No, it's just cuz I don't want my face

What does that mean aboveboard me like is it legal? Oh, yeah, they are. Oh god It's just my face can't be in the businesses. Can we talk generally about real estate? We have to say the LLC and where I don't do real estate yet. I'm getting into that. You should learn from this guy. He's pretty fucking good. Yeah, I'm getting into that. So what generally, like the what?

Cars. Cars, yeah. Like rental cars. Rental? That's a new one. I have an exotic car company, but I'm not going to say what it is. Or what state. You have an exotic car company like involving rentals

yeah like I ran out like I have a couple exotic cars that I run out interesting okay and then on top of that I'm trying to get into real estate too like I bought my own house but I want to buy like section 8 properties and Airbnb's right so yeah and land and stuff like that but God ain't making I'm focusing on this first the cars and then once I get that to where I want it to be and then I'm focusing on this first, the cars, and then once I get that to where I want it to be, then I'm getting to real estate next. So do you view like, you're kind of, because you're so young, like, and you've already been through a lot and everything, but you're kind of trying to live the American dream

on the right side of history now? Yeah, because I mean, I feel like a lot of people that's super rich did not play by the rules. So I feel like I already had to do what I had to do. Now I can clean everything up and do things the wrong way. There's some fairness in that. There's some fairness in that for sure. Yeah, I think in this country, we really go after the street criminals, but then there's

all these white collar criminals all over the place that are doing much as far as dollar amounts way greater crimes And then getting a fraction of the time. It is a weird stunted system. Yeah Well, you can't get rich working a job or if everybody was a boss and there'd be no workers So if everyone was a what a boss then there would be no workers So it's like at the boss kind of wants people to stay. I mean the whole system I feel like you're not gonna to get rich working a job. Do you think it's set up to be that way? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, definitely. Because if everybody was rich, then I mean everybody

was a boss and we wouldn't have no workers. I think it's who's willing to take a risk because anyone can be an entrepreneur, anyone can start a deli or a gas station or a rap business. And it's who's willing to put themselves out there and take a risk or who wants to just. Yes. Yeah, definitely. And you have a high, you have a very high risk tolerance and that will be very useful in building real businesses.

Yeah, but I take real good risk though. Like I wouldn't put my whole, like all my funds on the line or my whole freedom on the line for nothing. Like I think about what's the worst that can happen and make sure I'm okay with the worst happening before I do things. Jamie Tworkowski We kind of got off this, but forget the scamming or the video with Tommy G and everything, but after you get shot, what did your family...

Tyrone Jackson Well, I didn't get shot. Jamie Tworkowski After the shooting, I'm sorry. Like what's your family saying to you? Like chill or? Yeah, always. My mom sees nothing wrong with me completely deleting everything I ever did on the internet and just going to work at Walmart or just a job in general. I feel like that's the better option. So you have this conversation with her still actively? Yeah, like yeah. It should be like when you're just going to stop all this. She doesn't like the investment side of things? No, she does.

She just don't like the rap and the image and stuff, because it would just be dangerous. Rapping is a pretty dangerous profession. It is, because now people come after you. So would you say you're a target? You're either very loved or you're the target. Yeah. Sometimes I'll go, a lot of actually hoods

fuck with me in places I go, they'll fuck with me. But I'll go a lot of actually hoods fuck with me and places I go to fuck with me but I feel like a lot of people think it's like GTA like they think like as soon as they kill me like all the money they see on Instagram just drops out of my pockets and shit like they feel like I just carry that shit around everywhere like I'm just like yeah so it is a super I'm a super you dollars on you yeah I feel like I'm a super target yeah. Yeah it seems like that's really the unfortunate thing that hasn't gone away like within rap and hip hop and particularly a lot of even if guys like quote unquote make it out, you know, the streets still follow them and we see it

all the time. You know, we see guys get gunned down and things like that. And like obviously you have some level of paranoia with that, having concealed carry. You always have it on you pretty much, right? In those states? Yeah. I mean, I'm not even a street guy either though, so I just make money. Right, but I'm saying you're now a part of the rap community 100%. So that's how it's all going to be treated that way, because people are like, well, guess

what, Tag, you're in the game. Yeah, definitely. I mean our boy Brandon just had fucking 65 thrown at him by the worst shooters of all time Thank God cuz they don't be trying to hit stuff sometimes. They just want to send a message. You think they were just All the time. Yeah, they'd be like they didn't hit his producer though. Yeah, but they Missing 65 shots you just wanted to send a message. They'd be scared too, like people who go on drills and stuff, they'd be scared too. They don't really wanna kill nobody.

They just wanna just send a little message and then pretend like they was trying to kill them. Like they're hard. Yeah. You know what, there was actually- A lot of people would be scared. They don't wanna do that shit. A book written about, I wanna remember the title correctly,

but it was about the concept that in war times that a lot of men purposely miss. And that it was, he documented it was on killing by, and it was quite a theory that people are just, they're so against taking human life that a lot of humans will compel themselves to miss in a situation. Or they, yeah, they don't want to deal with the consequences. They just want to send a message like, yeah. But don't you think these guys may have been paid by someone to try and send a message

to Brandon who he's with? Nah, nah, they wasn't paid. I don't think so. I don't really know too much about them, but I don't think so. I think what I heard on the internet, I don't even want to know. That was crazy though, for people out there, Brandon. Yeah, I feel like it was probably people he was beefing with. Whoever he was with, it was probably somebody he was beefing with whoever he was with it was probably somebody He was beefing with in pool like but it scared me because like I'm I'm friends with Brandon

I'm friends with Tommy and like since we've been friends like we always have this conversation on camera and off camera like oh Some places you go like they're doing hard-hitting stories and like there's dangerous shit and the one thing you guys have both always said to me is like you feel like You kind of have almost like a like a press agreement like no touching because it's oh that's Tommy G oh that's Brandon Buckingham they're here to do a story they're not a part of this but that facade comes down when 65 bullets are thrown at you whether or not they probably didn't hit him no they probably didn't mean to hit the cameraman and him but it's who they were with yeah it's definitely with it wasn't it would never happen to just him right but because

they're with him it's like they knew he was with them because they were on Instagram Live, I think that's how they found out. So they know Brandon Buckingham's there and they're still throwing bullets when you guys have always said to me like, you know, there's an understanding when we're in there. Well, I would say the facade of that has to be down a little bit now because there was not an understanding that day. I think it's about not interviewing rappers who are really hot and beef. It's just not-

Or not in their own city, or, because that's why it was in Chicago, so everything's right around the corner, so that's probably why. But that's also where the story is though too, that's the thing. If he's going to be talking with them, he's going to know where the story is. Yeah, it's just a risk I guess, yeah. It is a risk. That's why I got a lot of respect for what you do, but it's scary. You're trying to move to some investigative pieces though now.

You've been doing the Scientology. It just seemed a lot more fun. The thing I sometimes struggle with going to the hood is I have all these different subjects and questions I want to ask about and I get one or two sentence responses sometimes. Sometimes there's just a lack of curiosity that is frustrating to make a piece. Whereas if I'm bringing out an ex-Blackwater mercenary to show me tactical driving, how not to get kidnapped,

how to shoot at targets, we can talk endlessly. We will talk for days on end until he boards his plane and I'll be talking to the guy and asking him questions. And so, and also I wanna do more, we wanna shine the light on things that are happening that Kenneth Copeland or Scientology, we want to do pieces that really bring a little bit of justice back to the world and expose just a little bit more what some of these people are doing.

Dev, did you see his Scientology video? I did. I watched all Tommy G's videos. Thank you. I really do. Thank you, man. So you just filmed that like two months ago, I think, right? Something like that. that was a crazy one. I didn't even know what that was until I seen your video Scientology. Yeah, it's great. I didn't even know that's when I started looking it up And I think you put in your video where they said they believe in some shit where they throw the beans and yeah

It was your video. I seen anything and then they were kicking you out and they were trying to talk to you. Yeah Yeah, yeah What did so you hadn't covered that before. You go down there with A.A. Ron, Jenna Miscavige, and Mark Bunker who have all been in here. And there's also a guy named Serge that we got to know, Serge Delmar. Yeah, I don't know him but yeah. Man, some of the stuff that he said was so compelling in his story and points to the biggest thing about Scientology to me is, okay, if a consenting

adult decides to join and give all their money away, I feel bad for them. But when kids are born into it, forced to work dozens of hours a week for free, treated like absolute crap, separated from their parents, that makes me like, that's when you want to put the gloves on and just go in there. Who came up with that? That's crazy. Elron Hubbard, baby. Guys, absolutely one of the most psychotic stories you'll ever hear. He was like the shittiest

science fiction writer of all time. He would just write like, I don't know, like a version of pulp fiction that was terrible. These awful stories. I've never read them, but everyone says they're terrible. And then he ended up writing, I guess, like Dianetics, right? And coming up with the idea of Scientology, more it had obviously some brilliance in creating like a cult of authority around him and then preyed on every human being's desire, which is like, you know, the ability to get wealth, the ability to be a part of something and the ability to feel like they have something to look forward to in the afterlife. They thought they were saving the world. So how would you not want to get wealth, the ability to be a part of something, and the ability to feel like they have something to look forward to in the afterlife. They thought they were saving the world.

So how would you not want to be part of the mission? Right. And so they get rich when they know they get poor. They get in debt massively. A lot of them get poor. And then you'll get here. So the person at the top gets rich? Yeah.

Yeah, because they pay into it and everything. Then you'll hear about like the Tom Cruise's and the Grant Cardone's and the people who are there in it too. Oh, yeah. They're scientists. Oh's and the Grant Cardone's and the people who are there in it, too Oh, yeah, they're scientists. Oh, yeah, Grant Cardone's a scientist. Dang. So they're evil finessers. That's what I'm saying. Grant Cardone's Gonna run for governor. I'm saying California and I'm like Do we know what who you weren't with me when I heard that? I forget if it's California or Florida one of them allegedly it's gonna be running for governor. And I'm like, how can you even get past the Scientology thing? Like the minute that comes up, he better be cooked. Oh, I can't wait to see the debates.

He better be cooked. Yeah. But that's what I'm saying. People like that will profit off of it. Does he have kids? Yeah. He did the same thing? He put his kids into the Scientology? No, because he was a business man that joined Scientology. And there's certain, the celebrities fear, they get to kind of do their normal thing and enjoy their life and then they get treated like a VIP when they show up to Scientology.

But then they have their worker bees who are every day doing hard labor, whether they're dry cleaning, they're putting concrete up. Pretty much every internal job that they don't have to hire a contractor for, they're putting concrete up. Like pretty much every internal job that they don't have to hire a contractor for, they do free labor for. Oh, so he's Scientology to use slaves basically. Yes, yeah, I think that's fair. So he doesn't actually believe some knight came

and threw beans in a valkyrie. I don't know. There's no way they actually believe that. I think I was about to ask, there's definitely gotta be something behind that. So that's what it is, he wants to free slaves. Well, the other thing is you only learn that, you're only supposed to learn that information after you've been be something behind there. So that's what it is. What's the first phase? Well, the other thing is you only learn that, you're only supposed to learn that information

after you've been in for a long time and paid a lot of money. And they tell you that? Yes. So then you have the sunk cost fallacy where you've already invested tens of thousands of dollars, you've already given up your entire family circle and only people you know are in Scientology and then you learn this information and it might be disappointing, but you're already so far deep that you probably don't want to get out for the most part. The guy who's been in charge of Scientology since L. Ron Hubbard died is this very short

guy named David Miscavige. Very short. And he, so that's since like 1986. His niece Jenna, who was in the video with Tommy, who I did a podcast with, she was born into their C-Org because her parents are obviously like the brother and brother-in-law of David Miscavige, which means that's like literally like in the cult of the cult, like on a... You're basically living in your own world.

Like it's enclosed, they're shut out, like she knew who the president of the United States was, but didn't know like what the importance of that was or anything like that. And she lived the first 21 years of her life in this and then you know it's like very hard to disconnect. In the building? Basically, yeah.

And then you know she found her way out of it and she basically it was like being born again like she came into a world and she's like wow like what is all this shit? And they you know have tried to slander her and a lot of other things as well and they ruined her life. But like you see the brainwashing that happens and the lack of choice she had over anything she did and the bullshit that they fed her. And it is impossible to not feel terrible. Because she's not dumb, she's born into it.

Like what the fuck else is she supposed to do? That's what I asked dude. How the fuck is it legal? Is it because the higher-ups are in it too, huh? Well, it's that and also they have – like Mark Bunker can talk to this a lot because he's spent his whole life trying to document it. But they find loopholes with the IRS. They're declared like a religious organization. Oh my gosh. Damn, they're super-scamming.

They're super-scamming. Yeah, they're the real scammers. They're like – Yeah, that's fucked up. Yeah, they're the next level scamming. But you guys, so you went and crashed the headquarters and everything? How was that? There's no conversations to be had. They kind of, hey, get out, get out, get out. You're trespassing. I wish I was a little less juvenile with them and I wish I asked them a little more hard

hitting things at that time. I knew there was no real conversation that would be generated from them. So it didn't matter what I said to them. But the most interesting part I think was getting to get their top flight security that guarded the celebrity center because they're kind of the equivalent of the CIA for Scientology. And they even got a little handsy. They got handsy. They were kind of pushing me out of the fence. And I pushed them back. And I was expecting a lot. I was wondering if a lawsuit was going to happen.

But I think for a lot of these cults, a lawsuit is bad. Because now all of a sudden, you have to air out all your dirty laundry in the eyes of court. There's investigations. So it's better just to be silent than it is to go after someone. Their main headquarters is in Clearwater, Florida. One of the things they do that is sinister, but it's kind of brilliant, is they buy up all the real estate around where they are and it just stays empty.

So they basically create their own little ghost town there. It's like North Korea. Yeah. That is crazy. I never knew about none of this until your video. Oh, it's nuts, man. It's like North Korea. Yeah. That is crazy. I never knew about none of this until your video. Oh, it's nuts, man. Then you make a movie on it. Well, they made a movie that's like kind of based on it that doesn't directly like go

at it. What's the master? Hmm. It's Philip Seymour Hoffman and Joaquin Phoenix. And I think it was it's been a while since I've seen it. So Seymour Hoffman is supposed to be like L Ron Hubbard That's a good. So who would you rather be take it down? Like you know how like all the rappers and gangs get Rico's would you rather them or would you rather the Scientology Scientology? Yeah, so how are they still getting away with everything?

It's about who you know and that's a doing it the right you yeah they have enough resources to have a powerful front in court. And I think the religious shield helps them quite a bit as well. But I was just reading about a cult in Spindale, North Carolina, about an hour away from Charlotte, a lady named Jane Whaley, Word of Fellowship Church. It makes me so mad when I... some of the things that they do to people there. But documented child abuse, documented slave labor, documented manipulation control, It makes me so mad when I, some of the things that they do to people there, but like documented child abuse, documented slave labor, documented manipulation control, and somehow the authorities

know about it, the sheriffs know about it, and for some reason. It's because of religion. And so you can do whatever you want as long as you just say it's a religion. It seems like that sometimes. Do you think there's more there though? Black male, things like that? Well, I think a lot of it is happening behind closed doors and I think they're so good at controlling people that if one person escapes to say something, they have 20 members that

they've already prepared their story on. They torture. He's a liar. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they torture these people like in Scientology when they leave. I mean, there's campaigns against them like you wouldn't believe they have people show this is crazy people They look into they hire private investigators to tail people. Yep

I'm gonna look into that. Yeah, it's it's it's dark man I mean we've done four in here and there's one like so when a a Ron and Jenna were here They were here for a couple days first day. I recorded with a a Ron. He's an ex He was basically a Ron you A.A. Ron. He's an ex. He was basically born. A.A. Ron you call him? Yeah, yeah. You never saw that? No, I like that. On his videos because he starts off the video with the Key and Peele skit.

Ah, yeah, yeah. That's like his tagline like, A.A. Ron. But he was here. We recorded one day and then the next day they came back and I did the episode with Jenna. But I don't know if you've run into stuff. When we finished recording with Aaron, someone had put a New York Scientology brochure below my mailbox downstairs. And I'm like, God damn. You're following them? Yeah, that's what I think.

Jeez. I've never seen that before. It was below, it wasn't in my mailbox, it was below it. So when they're following them? Yeah That's what I think. Jeez. I've never seen that before it was below it wasn't in my mailbox It was below so when they're born into it and they go in a new world was different to them Well, they're fucked up and I don't say that as a slight like what do they believe it like how they they got a read It's imagine you got to rewire everything you've ever known about like the axis of what it means to be here You know the Truman show with Jim Carrey. Yep. That's how I described it. He lives entirely in his own little bubble and then he discovers there's an outside world and there's an overwhelming sense of freedom. But also what have I missed out on this whole time and what's really out there

and what's really real? Because if this wasn't real, my entire life wasn't real so far. What can I trust anymore? What can I believe in anymore? Damn. I think the Truman Show actually, and I don't think there's ever been anything said about this, if there has, correct us in the comments. I think the Truman Show has some undertones of like a little shot at stuff like Scientology for sure. Because basically it's the idea just all the way, Tommy just explained it, but like he was in a TV show and he didn't know it. He was the only, everyone around him was a character and he was being filmed from birth. They wanted to film someone from birth going

through life. They had hidden cameras like in his medicine cabinet and shit. So people around the world were watching him on a live stream his entire life and he never knew it. It's like you live in this in a separate universe and you're you're unaware and and that's how like when you talk with like Jenna who's born in the highest levels of it and Spends 21 years there and she's indoctrinated by literally the leadership because it's her family You know, I was I would just have as we were talking. I just had all these questions that would pop up like oh what? What do you know about math or you know, like random shit because they they had They had an enclosed environment that was You know like silent torture in a way. It's crazy. Do they listen to music?

That was another question. I asked her I was like what I don't remember what she said I'm like, what did you know about music? Like what did you listen to music? That was another question I asked her. I was like, I don't even remember what she said. I'm like, what did you know about music? Like, what did you listen to or whatever? But I can't remember if she knew any mainstream stuff or if they had like... Scientology, artists? Random, I can't remember. I can't even remember.

There were so many things. I would just come up with something and be like, what about this or what about that? And she would sit there and really think about it. I'm like, oh no, I didn't. That's actually crazy. Yeah. Can you imagine that they don't have access to punch made dev music in Scientology? We have to liberate these people.

That's what I'm saying. That's what we're doing. We're putting punch made dev music in there. In the Scientology building? Yeah. They'll learn about the real world. It'd be like, what is this fentanyl crisis? I learned it from punch made dev. Where do you want to be in ten years though? Won't be off the internet and I'm just gonna be super wealthy and helping out the world Do you view success or not success? Do you view happiness in life is equated to wealth? No, you don't but it's fun to have it. But no

so gotta have a family mmm live comfortably and Take care of the people you love and around you. Do you want to have a family, live comfortably, and take care of the people you love and around you. Do you want to have a big family? Yeah, decently sized. How many kids do you think you want to have? Like two or three. What about you? We might have one more.

What about you? I want to have several. Like a lot? Like ten? Not like six, but you know maybe like four. I think that'd be cool. My future wife will probably have to figure that one out. But you know, it's a conversation.

Yeah, I don't think wealth. It's just fun to chase though. I mean, you got to do something. So I mean, it's just fun to try to get it. It's like a video game. Would you want your kids to do any of the stuff that you allegedly have done? Nah, they won't have to because I'm going to put them in position. I already took the risk for us.

When you say put them in position, you mean like set them up already so they don't have to work or? Nah, nah, nah. Like I'll teach them the skills I learned that nobody else taught me and teach them how to be their own entrepreneur and do whatever they want to do.

From a business perspective. Yeah, business for sure. That's what I'm trying to move into is business. I hope you do that, seriously. I hope all those other days are behind you. Definitely. I wish I could just transfer all that to just being like, just have a whole bunch of businesses.

It'll feel much better. And I could just walk around in a suit all day. Yeah. And not gotta be a rapper or nothing no more. As I'm talking to you and we're picking up on these little things, like when you did some of this stuff, what happened, what's happened since, kind of where you're at now even like taking down some old music and stuff like that I think there's there's some stuff that seems to be a step in the right direction some self-awareness there

I hope that keeps happening for you though. Definitely. There's a lot behind the scenes that i'd be doing and you you think i'm taking a bunch of steps Okay, we'll have to talk about that. Yeah, for sure To be continued, I guess, right? Yeah. All right. Tommy G, thanks as always, brother, for coming through. Gang gang, baby. Dev, thanks for going through everything today, man.

Yeah, thanks for having me. Of course. And once again, you're teaching people how not to scam. Yeah, fraud prevention. Fraud prevention. How to not, not how to, not how to scam. How to not get scammed. Yeah.

How to be safe in this evil world we live in. Right. So he's on the side of the light now, people. That's why we're talking to him here. Thank you for your service, Dev. Oh yeah, anytime. I appreciate that. We'll put your guys' Instagrams down there below.

Let me know if there's other stuff, links you want down there. Appreciate it. We'll do this again sometime, boys. Definitely. All right. Everybody else, you know what it is. Give it a thought. get back to me peace Thank you guys for watching the episode if you haven't already please hit that subscribe button and smash that like button on the video

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