Julian Dorey Podcast - #317 - North Korean Military Defector EXPOSES Kim Jong Un & “1984” Spy Program | Hyunseung Lee

Episode Date: July 9, 2025

SPONSORS: 1) Huel: Get Huel today with this exclusive offer for New Customers of 15% OFF with code JULIAN at https://huel.com/JULIAN (Minimum $75 purchase) PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/JulianDorey (***TIMESTAMPS in Description Below) ~ Hyun-seung Lee is a former DPRK businessman and chair of the Kim Il Sung Socialist Youth League branch in Dalian, China. A series of purges by Kim Jong Un forced him and his entire family to defect in late 2014, making their way first to South Korea then to the United States. Lee now works as a director for One Korea Network and a fellow of North Korean studies at the Global Peace Foundation, and he has interned with the Foundation for Defense of Democracies. HYUN-SEUNG'S LINKS:HYUN-SEUNG'S LINKS: YT: https://www.youtube.com/c/Pyonghattan FB: https://www.facebook.com/MrNorthKorea X: https://x.com/LeeHyunSeung85 IG: https://www.instagram.com/mr.northkorea/ WEBSITE: https://give.globalpeace.org/campaign/695826/donate FOLLOW JULIAN DOREY INSTAGRAM (Podcast): https://www.instagram.com/juliandoreypodcast/ INSTAGRAM (Personal): https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey/ X: https://twitter.com/julianddorey JULIAN YT CHANNELS - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Clips YT: https://www.youtube.com/@juliandoreyclips - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Daily YT: https://www.youtube.com/@JulianDoreyDaily - SUBSCRIBE to Best of JDP: https://www.youtube.com/@bestofJDP ****TIMESTAMPS**** 00:00 – Indoctrination, Anti-West, Kim Jong Un, Juche, Childhood Brainwashing 08:23 – No Ownership, Rare Foods, Japan Trade Ban, US Defectors, Forced Labor 20:53 – Community Control, Caste System, Military, Regime Worship, Family Life 30:51 – Bible Ban, Dual Lives, Political Identity, Child Labor, Moral Indoctrination 40:04 – Limited Electricity, Food Inequality, Family Reunion, Pyongyang Christianity 51:07 – Religion Ban, Poverty, Illegal Income, Bribery, Soviet Support, Exports 01:02:16 – Labor Exports, Spies, Hidden Dissent, Artist School 01:14:14 – Self-Criticism, No Privacy, Peer Surveillance 01:23:41 – MP3 Ban, Rural Punishment, American Music 01:34:31 – Rodman Visit, Record-Keeping, Cheap Sports, South Park 01:43:02 – Golf Ban, Border Traps, Prison Babies, Embassy Torture 01:55:29 – China Support, Internet Censorship, Event Control 02:05:32 – Coup Impossible, Outside Info, Subversion, Capitalism Exposure 02:15:12 – Anti-Capitalist TV, Kim Propaganda, Lies About Un 02:24:27 – Power Struggle, Economic Study, Human Rights Atrocities 02:37:20 – Starvation, Bugged Homes, U.S. Currency 02:45:45 – Songun, Military-First Policy 02:52:45 - Next phase of story CREDITS: - Host, Editor & Producer: Julian Dorey - COO, Producer & Editor: Alessi Allaman - https://www.youtube.com/@UCyLKzv5fKxGmVQg3cMJJzyQ - In-Studio Producer: Joey Deef - https://www.instagram.com/joeydeef/ Julian Dorey Podcast Episode 317 - Hyunseung Lee Music by Artlist.io Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

So he's God. North Korea is a very strict country. And the military is more than a million soldiers. They believe North Korea is a paradise. And then we have to say thanks for the great leader every time. If those people courtesize the regime, they will be captured, punished, f***ed, they will be imprisoned forever.

So among five people, there was one spy guy. What happens when people are captured trying to escape? The border patrols, they were instructed now, any attempt to escape, you can't shoot them. They utilize AI, face recognition technology. There's no chance to escape through that. The country is now focusing more than controlling. The final comment always was,

if you live in the United States under capitalism, you'll end up like this. And they showed all these people on the street, robbery, always chasing cars. But it's not the ending. If Trump kicked Michael Jordan to go to North Korea to convince him, hey, don't develop nuclear weapons, Kim Jong-un might think about it. So you're saying Michael Jordan has a Nobel Peace Prize sitting at his fingertips right now. Hey, guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five-star review. They're both a huge, huge help. Thank you. fingertips right now.

How did you get the nickname Arthur or the alter ego? I should say Arthur, you're just telling me this. Yeah. Um, when I was in North Korea, the regime surprisingly showed a Disney animation to its Pyongyang citizens, not entire people. And, uh, I watched some like, um, Slipping Beauty and Beauty and then Sword in the Stone. I was trying to get cool English name. And then I think, you know, Arthur was the one who was the main character, and then it looks like the name and King Arthur,

so, wow, it's good. And then I want to use that name if I, you know, have to use English name. But unfortunately, I was not the country who speak English. But I went to China, but after I escaped and then I started using the name author. I love it. That's awesome. Well, there's a lot of layers here. You and I were just talking for a few minutes before we got on about all the different like warped worldviews you've had a chance to have in your life just because you were there and then you were able to defect and come here and

Now you're I guess living on the other side of the curtain So I'm sure we'll get into all that today, but let's just start at the beginning. Where where were you born? I Was born in a one-cent, the east coast of North Korea. Now, you guys may have seen the news that Kim Jong-un recently opened the resort in east coast. That's my hometown. And it's a beautiful coastal town, and lots of nice views, mountains, and beach.

So Kim Jong-un himself spent many years, like his childhood, in that town. One big reason is he was hiding from his grandfather. So his grandfather, the founder of North Korea, that, you know, Kim Jong-il, the second Kim's children, was not recognized by his grandfather, the first Kim. So in North Korea, the multiple marriage is kind of sin.

The leader should be model of the people, so he should keep the family as like, how do I say it's flawless. Yes. Yes. Nuclear family. Yeah, nuclear family. So multiple marriage and multiple wives, it's kind of taboo in North Korea. So they cannot emphasize second game has a third wife.

So Kim Jong-un is the son of the third wife. And then the second game, Kim Jong-il couldn't tell he has a third wife and has three children to his father. So they were hiding from his grandfather. So they don't have any picture with the grandfather. So, you know, Wonsan is the very beautiful city and Kim Jong-il, the second game has the like very nice facility there. So they put them, the whole family there and they spent childhood and during their childhood, they secretly visit Japan through,

They secretly visit Japan through the ships. Secretly? Yeah, because in North Korea, anti-Japan, anti-America, anti-South Korea is the main education and core, the elements to run the country. And imagine that the sons of the leader visits Japan and like that. people won't buy that. So they kind of sneak, I mean, they kind of secretly visit North Korea, visit Japan. It's interesting that just as a little side note there, it's interesting that the way

the company or the country needs to operate is to have these enemies that they point as like the boogeyman and they call America's at least across the sea. But then you got Japan and South Korea right there by you. And the people are just trained to be like, that's the reason we exist here. Yep. That's exactly how North Korea plays politics. Wow.

Yeah. So you grew up in this town where they have the waterpark now. I don't know if we can pull up that video, Joe. I was watching that the other day, like Kim Jong-un walking in a suit through a waterpark. I was waiting for him to like actually, you know, put on the bathing suit and go sliding, but I guess that wasn't going to happen. Nobody would want to try to watch his bathing, Kim with bathing suit. Yeah. I want to try to watch him with bathing suit. Yeah, it's like...

Yeah. So, what... So, these kinds of things that he does, these are just kind of strictly PR stunts, right? Yeah, but it's more related his own personal experience while he was in Switzerland. He went to Switzerland as a student. When he was a child.

The memory he has is nice, you know, water park, nice scenery, and then, you know, the horseback riding. So when he came back to North Korea, he wanted to build those stuff. So the first thing he did actually, when he took his office, he ordered, you know, make a rice, the whole spec riding field. Yeah. And the water park and the ski resort. Yeah. So, so this is part of his project. Yeah. They just finished this.

They just finished. It took 10 years. I was going to say, I've been working on it for a long time. Yeah. How long has he been in power now? Like almost 15? He took the power after his father's death. His father died December 2011. So yeah, it's been like 13 years.

So you grew up, when you're born, obviously, you're born into a country that has now been shut off from the world for a long time. You said you're 40 years old? Is that right? Yeah, yeah, I'm 40 years now. Okay, so you're born in the early 80s, early mid-80s. And I guess it had been shut off officially since the Korean War, effectively, in the early 50s. So we're over three decades in to the kind of curtain

being descended around this country. Like what... I don't know what to ask this. How did you understand, like what was the world to you? Was the world just North Korea and outside the borders was like no man's land or what was it to you? What did it look like in your head as a child? That's a great question and

When we were in North Korea as a child and also as a grown man We never expect outside of information Hmm, it's a you know kind of forbidden to access those informations. Even like, you will see the news that even those kids watching South Korean drama and American movies, they are arrested and then punished for watching the dramas, right? So, I was like, had no idea what outside look like. And if we guess, many others, they think outside,

including the United States and other countries, are the same system. Like, we have ultimate leader, and everybody listens to leaders' decision and leaders' word. And leader has a family, you know, inherits the power like that. So that was the our guessing when we were in North Korea when I was young. But after my military service, after I went to China, I realized that, oh, the thing's a lot different.

Yes. Yeah. So that time, I think I started noticing the differences between the North Korea's propaganda and the reality. What did your parents do? What were they like? I think they are more in a brainwashed in the past. So they were in the country like more than five decades.

And people are educated to be loyal to the leader and to serve the country. And I mean, in North Korea, the slogan is for the people, for the leader, for the country. So all we are doing is for the country and the public. But the regime make it as a, like, slogan that... working for people and the country is equal to working for leader. So, ultimately, whole, you ultimately, the ideology shifted. The working for people and loyal to leader is equal.

And then we have to ultimately respect and then serve for leader, so protect leader. So main focus is now leader. And we have to listen. So you may have heard the North Korea's main ideology called Juche ideology which is mainly emphasizing that your life and your destiny should be decided by you. No one could decide your destiny and your life. But the regime eventually they changed it. So yes, your destiny should be, you know, decided by you. You are the main person who design

in life. But you don't have such knowledge or equipment or decision making, you know, decision-making knowledge. So we should rely on the leader. And leader has ultimate idea and decision, so we have to follow him. That's the main idea right now. And what was your parents' occupation when you were born? My father actually served two times of high-ranking position, which is directly appointed by the second game, the Kim Jong-il.

Is that in the military? No, my father worked for the economy business side. Oh, wow. So he worked for one of the biggest company and as a CEO. And then later he was the board of chairman of North Korea, Geumgang Economic Development Group, which is joint venture between North Korea's defense committee and the Hong Kong business, the business man. Because effectively any company there is owned by the government and someone like your father's putting charges like CEO But he's reporting directly as you said to the leader. That's correct. Okay, you don't have private ownership in North Korea

You don't even run your own restaurant or you know even pocket show so It should be under company or the government. So it's almost a state-owned country. Yes. Yeah. On days where I'm not recording a podcast, I usually go to my office a few blocks away for the afternoon to work. Instead of packing my mid-afternoon snack, I bring along my Hewell Black Edition, which does two different things. Number one, gets me my 35 grams of protein that I'm going to need to get those gains. And number two, it's also in the iced coffee version, a little bit of a caffeine pick me up. And that's one of the many reasons why I'm happy to tell you today's sponsor is Huel. H-U-E-L.

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Shop great Prime Day deals now. Now, did your father's job, even at the time you were born, have him going to other countries as well? Not at the time, but he was working on the business between Japan and North Korea. And then I think he went to other country like late 1990s. Yeah. Okay. So when you were a teenager. Yeah. When I was a teenager, he went to Japan, Singapore, and Europe, the business. It's a government business, but they are selling seafood and mushroom. You know,

the Japanese people loves North Korean mushroom. Yeah, it's a high quality and then even like when Japanese prime minister visit North Korea, they gave them as a gift and they loved it. Wow. So even though Japan is looked at in the propaganda as the enemy, which effectively they are, there's still business that happens between the two. Yes. But it stopped in 2005. Okay. Because North Korea... So North Korea and Japan has a history after, you know, the Korean War. They kidnapped many Japanese people. North Korea did.

Yes, the regime did. But they never recognized the kidnapping. And then when the Japanese Prime Minister Koizumi visits North Korea in 2002, Kim Jong-il, the second leader, he suddenly admitted, we have some people who have like a sure ideas to kidnap people. So I'm sorry. And then Japan was like they're all like a book this story all blown up. And then North Korea never recognized if you know, they're kidnapping. And now the leader And now the leader recognized it. So like the Japan society and the whole political circle, they criticize North Korea and we should, you know, cut off,

you know, diplomatic relationship. And so eventually Japan and North Korea like that. So they effectively put sanctions on, is what you would say. Yeah. Similar to what like the US has. That's correct. Okay. But wow, that last and they were at least open until 2005. You wouldn't think that. No. I mean, that's a surprising decision. But it's so some people criticize Kim Jong Il, the second Kim dad, his stupid recognized. So, yeah, I mean, I mean, you know, and sometimes, after, no, I mean, after the incident, they sent back some of them to Japan.

North Korea sent back some of the hostages effectively. I mean, not hostages, but- Abductees. Abductees. So, the abductes married other people while they were in North Korea, right? So their kids and the adoptees sent back to North Korea. And even some of them, they were arranged at a meeting,

family meeting, in Japan. And after the meeting in Japan, they refused to go back to North Korea. So they basically defected. So yeah, and then among them, I have two high school friends. And I didn't know where they came from. They are like basically white kids. Caucasian. So they're not Asian at all. Not Asian because I went to Pyongyang for language school and then we have like some foreigners there. Got it. And I had a three like white kids there, and one boy and two ladies.

So those two ladies are siblings. And then I saw the video that they went to Japan after the kidnap negotiation. And I later found out that her mom was kidnapped, right? And mom married to American soldier who defected from Korea to North Korea. American soldier? Yeah, in 1960s or 70s, something like that. Yeah, there are several American soldiers defected from South Korea to North Korea while

they're serving in the military in South Korea. Yeah, you'll be surprised, but yeah. Yeah, I need to know what weed they were smoking. Very interesting. Okay. I think they must be drunken. But yeah, maybe a little heroin. I hear that was going on back then. So they married, they have kids. So they are the, you know, kids from them. So I'm but we started like four years, three years together. I'm not close to them, but still I know them, right? They know me.

I didn't know. And then it was kind of like the rules that we don't ask their origin. So- Were they strange looking to you though in the sense that you hadn't seen people who didn't look like you before Yeah, it's strange to me, but it's kind of you know things that we couldn't ask They speak, you know, very fluent Korean

like North Korean dialects and Sometimes the boy I we went to you know public baths us together Yeah, Joe just pulled up one of the soldiers that defected. It's not just one. There's several right, right? This is just one example. James joseph dresnok Died in november 2016 was an american defector to north korea one of seven us soldiers to defect after the korean war After defecting he worked as an actor In propaganda films some directed by Kim Yong-il, who's Kim Yong-il's father. And as an English teacher in Pyongyang. There you

go. Wow. Yeah. So they are mostly became actors because they want to make, North Korea wanted to make a propaganda video, like fighting against the United States. Same bad guy in every movie. Yeah, so they act as American, you know, generals, American officers like that, and that's the story. So, yeah, those people, and then we never understood where they came from, and then the boy,

we went to get the public bath house. He has all like, the golden hairs and then like this. Golden hairs? I mean like, no, blonde. Yeah. So I was like, I was like, oh, but we have like, black hairs. So you weren't trying to bleach yours to match? No.

Would they let you do that? No. I was going to say that's probably not kosher. That's another story, but it's forbidden. You cannot do that. Yeah. Okay. So I was going to make a joke that sometimes people die here, right? And then I'll TikTok and then I was going to say very next day you'll be like, you know, as like the you'll be entirely cut off your hair. Right. Right. And put in a camp not like camp but maybe yeah but you know you'll be shaped by the regime i got you okay i mean it's sinister but i mean i guess

we gotta make some of it funny but so that's high school though when you go to pyeongyang yeah i want to go back to when you were a kid because it it's just so fascinating to me. Like, you and I were talking before camera. All the things that are in the background of our life here in America that we take for granted for you, you don't have, right? Like, I have memories of my life that are surrounded around types of music that would play in the background. Even if I liked it or didn't,

it's like something that's associated with that. Or something that would be on the TV. Or something that we would do at school where it wasn't, you know, the government telling us what history really was in that way. But you don't have any of that. So you're born into this family where your father is a rising businessman within the regime. First of all, what was your mom like? My mom was a housekeeper, like, you know, the family supporting wife. And she was not well when she was in North Korea, the health conditions.

So yeah. So she usually stayed, and sometimes they need to do some public work. So she was mobilized to do some public work. What does that look like, public work? Yes, like a cleaning and helping seafood factory like that. Yeah. Okay, so the government could just say,

like, you have to go help with this. So in North Korea, if you're a North Korean citizen, you have to be part of the group. It's a must. So my mom is part of the community. And then the community controls their life. And then every Saturday, they have a live session together. So it's every citizen requirement. So I did too. My dad, you know, did as well. So yeah, my mom and then when she was young, she was a attendant for the cruise between Japan and North Korea. The cruise. Like the cruise ship?

Yeah, cruise ship that Kim Jong-un went to Japan when he was a child. Oh, like the Royal? Yeah. Whoa. Yeah, it's a small like cruise ship, but yeah, still for many years, the cruise ship operated between Japan and North Korea, the Wonsan city city the city I was born so yeah, that's why We have so We have some Japanese influence at the time interesting. So would you say?

God there's so many layers here. I apologize if we're jumping around a little bit There's no good. There's a lot on the table and I'd love like a guy like you You can educate all of us out here Because we just think of this very I'll speak for myself and I'm sure a lot of people listening like we think in North Korea No pun intended, but like very black and white in the way like okay. It's closed off regime. It's fucked up They abuse people and obviously it's all true But the details of what it's like day in day out is something a lot of us aren't as aware of so Would you say you were born into a more if this even exists upper-class form of North Korea? Yeah. Yeah

No, my family is like middle class, okay, but we have a class classification, how does it work? So we have like elite class, the core class, the group, and the middle class, we call it like labor class. And the last one was more hostile, like wavering class. So the wavering and hostile class are the people who have families in South Korea, have families in the United States, or those families, member of family who captured during the Korean War by the South Korean military, and then who has anti-government activists in the past, the people who were imprisoned in political prison camp. So those relatives of the families are classified as the hostile and babing class.

That class is, you know, if you're born with the class, you are not allowed to develop your entire career in North Korea. It's like a caste system in India. If you're familiar with that... It's more than that. It's more than that. It's more than that. So, for example, if I was born with the host class, I cannot serve North Korean military.

I cannot become a member of North Korean Workers' Party. It's a membership of North Korean Workers' Party is the like a cornerstone for your career in North Korea. So if I cannot be a member, I mean you cannot be an official military service and those benefits you cannot get. So you only be a labor worker or farmer. You know what's kind of odd about that? This is a cynical take, but you think about like the war machines around the world in different countries. The first people they throw at it are the lower classes because they're like, well, let's just throw bodies at the problem.

You would think they might do that, but you're saying it's really the opposite. The military is more of a, I guess, a privilege in a way. The main reason they don't allow them to serve the military is what the regime is thinking about if they got the weapon on their hands and it's risky. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the main reason. So they don't have a second amendment over there.

No. And then like middle class is main, you know, the large portion of the class, like labor class and farmers, all the people who has no, like, anti-hostile, the classification background. Would you say that's the largest class of the three? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And then the core class is more like very few people, like family who has been with the founder of North Korea, like fought against Japanese, fought during the Korean War, like

close to the founder Kim Il-sung. So maybe, I don't know if this is a good example, correct me if I'm wrong, but somewhat similar to like British high society around the royal family in a way. Very similar. Okay. Yeah. So now they become like a loyal family now. Okay.

Yeah. So you're born into the middle. Middle of the two. Yeah. But your dad ended up being by standards pretty successful, right? Yeah. Would you say he eventually graduated to being in that upper class I would say like that because becoming a

the political appointee by the president or leader of North Korea is not easy right yeah the only in North Korea those political appointee like presidential appointed jobs are like less than 3000. So yeah, that's a pretty, you know, high position and he was a vice minister role there two times. So later, I think my family become a elite class. Got it. Yeah.

You know, I should have I should have asked this ahead of time. But what is it? What is the population in North Korea again? Approximately 25 approximately? 25 million. 25 million. Yeah. So only 3,000 appointees. Yep.

Wow. And it's not like a small country though, compared to Europe and other countries. Sure. Yeah, it's a... It's sizable. Yeah, sizable. Yes. But, we will go into later, but the military is more than a million soldiers. They have more than a million soldiers in the North Korean military.

Yeah, 1.3 million soldiers. It's the largest military other than Russia and China. Whoa. I mean, U, maybe. Yeah, but yeah. Anyway, so the I mean, what I'm saying is the population is only 25 million and they have a large amount of military. No, and it's all males in the military. No, they have females too. Yeah, and mandatory service.

Mandatory service as long as you're not a part of that hostile class Right. Okay. So when you were Not an infant because you don't remember that but when you're a little kid, you know five six seven, whatever it might be Did you? Sorry if this is a little personal But did you understand like the concept of love like did you love your parents and did you feel like your parents loved you or was that harder to understand in a country like that? I think, you know, I could sense that.

I mean, the love between children and parents and it's more, I think it's the same in any society, you know, love between parents and children are the same. But the reason North Korea is keep highlighting the loyalty to the Kim family is they were trying to raise these young people from very early age to be a brainwashing, you know, children for Kim family. So in schools, we are not taught about the love between parents and children, right?

Why? The love from the leader, like even we received some gifts like the snacks, and then we have to say, thanks for the great leader every time. And the life and then the family, the food we are having,

we have to respect, we have to appreciate. From the leader. From the leader. Right. Yeah. So he's God. They don't describe him God and then but it's almost a God figure. Yeah. But they do ban religion within the country. Is that fair to say? Yeah. No religion and no belief. You can only have one belief for Kim family regime and if you want to you know practice or a belief the you know the Buddhism or

Catholic or Christian North Korean regime says we have freedom of religion and They think they Like make a propaganda videos that no you can do whatever you want, right? But in reality, we have only two churches in country, in the whole, across the nation. But the two churches are for the show. And the one church actually was built before the Korean War you said for the show meaning well, yes act like we have it. Yeah, we really don't yeah So they put actors in there put actors there those

You know fake The you know, the religious people are mobilized by the regime and they're all like workers party members Are these like Christian churches or? I mean the Catholic and the Christian church. Got it. Yeah. Okay. So we don't have religion. We are not allowed to have religion.

So the one of the biggest the scene we have is possessing Bibles and sharing Bibles with people are the, you know, dangerous act. It's like a black market. Even black market, even people who, you know, receive Bibles from China and other pastors in China. And then, you know, if they share the Bible or they're trying to gathering people to having some Bible reading. No, most of them who have done that captured

and arrested since the political prison camp. Yeah. So as a kid, I just think about like the regular questions you start to ask and then you ask your parents, right? Starts simple enough. What is death? What is the afterlife? Right.

And then eventually you're like 11, you're like, what is sex? Or, you know, all that stuff. But to start on the simple side, what did you think the meaning of it all was? Like, did you wonder what happens to you after death at any point as a young kid? In North Korea, we do have two lives. One is physical life and the other is political life. Physical and political Political life

We called it, you know, basically we called like a physical life and political life So physical life is really we are alive, right? With our own body The political life is even though your physical life is gone, you're dead The political life will be forever. How do I describe this? So, like, they have literally classified the two lives between physical and then mental, or like, you know, spiritual. But they never say the spiritual, but they keep saying the political life.

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If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connects Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. So, and Kim Il Sung, the founder, Kim Jong Il, the second leader, they all died, right? But we respect the whole history of them. And every time we have a large, uh, the events, we have to pay respect to, you know, not graves. They are still like, you know, the treated as a, the, the, the live person. So, and, oh, they're still treated like they're alive. Yep. There's like, um,

like a mirror. No, mirror. No, so they didn't, uh, they don't have a grave. Yeah. They didn't burn the bodies. They still keep them as a live person with the treatment. And they spend millions of dollars for that. So that, meaning they're lying, I guess what we would say is they're lying in states. So you see their body.

Yeah. And so they don't describe them as dead? No. But, I mean, the physical body is dead, but the political life is still alive. So you see their body. Yeah. And so they don't describe them as dead? No. But, I mean, the physical body is dead, but the political life is still alive. They're ruining the country. That is so sinister that it's called political life.

Political life. So, if, you know, I defected, right? So my political life in North Korea is dead. Even though my physical life is alive. So that's the story. So my relatives in North Korea, their political life is almost going down because they have a family who has defected. So like that. So you don't have like, this is interesting, even a lot of people out there who aren't

religious, we have the benefit of growing up in a free society where ideas like this are exchanged and a lot of the religions have at least a similar theme, which is that there's an afterlife. You want to call it heaven, you want to call it whatever they call it, but if you're good, you go there, supposedly, right? You don't have any concept of that when you're a kid. You're not taught like, oh, you go up into the clouds when, figuratively, when you're dead.

You're just told like, oh, for example, these leaders leave the physical world, but they're still political leaders. So we go look at their body and state and say thank you. And they stay on and you are relegated to that same fate without all the fanfare. No. They don't emphasize afterlife. They don't emphasize if we do a good job and we are not going to heaven, the concept. We don't have such concept.

What is good and bad then? How do they teach that? Just a leader? No. So the good thing is you have to study hard, you have to work hard to serve for people and the leader. So becoming good child for leader is a good stuff. And like bad acting, like not studying hard and then like, you know, like if you hear I mean North Korea is very strict country they don't have weed they don't have like a drinking problems among kids like that's not the worst thing not the worst so I mean that's you know kind of like a good thing we're going to

have some North Korean policies around here so So yeah, so those except some, you know, students, you know, it's a good it categorizes the good and bad. And then the good thing is to be a good child for later. And bad thing is becoming bad child for later. So that's how they differentiate good and bad. Is that so that's expressed to you in school more than anything? It sounds like? Yes. Okay. I mean, in school, in school, we do have, you know, study, but we do have

more like public activity, including the lots of mission for children. Like after school, we have to collect some random stills or random like waste papers for the school projects. And sometimes school required to students to provide some funding for school beautification. School beautification. Yeah. School project. So it sounds like, you know, when we build the school and then it's all, you know, um,

a control of ID and a school committee or like a people who, you know, give funding, right? North Korea, not like this. So students are cleaning the facility and students are the main person who you know do the you know the construction. If they need the constructions. I mean they might be professional constructions, the minor you know stuff and then all students are doing. So little kids are doing. Yes. So they should collect some, you know, stones and then, you know, the sand. So like lots of, you know, missions, like random missions, random requirements.

So it's very tough being kid in North Korea. They're glorifying child labor for you, for the regime. Yeah, effectively. They are not paid though. Yeah. Right. Exactly're glorifying child labor for you. For the regime, effectively. Yeah, and they are not paid, though. Right, exactly. It's child slave labor. Child slave labor, yeah. Like, here's your education that we propagandize to you, and in order to have that, you're going to build this fucking building. That's crazy.

So, at home, though, outside of school, you're a little kid. Are your parents teaching you good and bad as well on the basis of what the leader says is good and bad? Are they kind of brainwashed into doing that? I think it depends on the family, like, and then how the parents value the children's education. So like, I would say the public education, they emphasize the public moral.

Like, yeah, you have to respect the elders, and then in the bars, you have to give away the, all the people and then pregnant women like the seats, right? Yeah. Yeah, like that. So that's positive. Yeah. Yeah, that's positive thing. So Many parents still like teach them you shouldn't do that. You shouldn't you know, you are allowed to do that like that. But I Think when I was young and I was afraid to do some activities against North Korean government rules.

For example, watching South Korean dramas and even playing games. I do have a Nintendo. When you were a kid? Yeah. But it's hard to play because we don't have electricity. So... Oh, you didn't have electricity? Yeah. Even though, you know, in Pyongyang city, we only had like a two hours, three hours electricity. So, and then parents, you know, control the time, right? You have to study, you know, playing games like, you know, so like that. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I would say a little bit similar to this, you know, South Korea and America, still parents. I was going to say the Asian

parent culture seems to carry across cultures for sure. Asian parent. You won't get that work done. Yeah. The tiger parents are crazy. You said it. So you would only have electricity for two, three hours a day. And again, you're in the middle class. You're not in the lower class either.

This is a reality for you though too. So in terms of electricity, power, it doesn't matter you are like in the middle class or the neighboring class. The entire country like electricity, they may provide some electricity to the like, you know, the core class people because they live in other, know the component compound the community they have their own like you know Buildings right so they may have some you know more electricity, but it's more general like entire country lacks electricity What was your most your house like? When you were born and young mostly we do have, we live in apartments, condo meal.

Yeah. So two rooms, three rooms, one living room and you know, kitchen. Not like a fancy kitchen and dining room, but you know, people are trying to build more fancy housing. So my condo meal was actually built by my dad. No fancy housing. Yes, so my Condominium was actually built my dad So he your dad. Yeah, I built it. Yeah, so they he was the CEO of the company, right? So they built a condominium for the company, you know

executives and the people so So all the oh, so all their families could live there. Yeah. So we had like two living rooms and one, no, I mean two bedrooms and one living room and kitchen and dining room. It's compared to other regular people's apartments. It's a fancy condo. Okay, but I want to make sure I understood this correctly.

That, the condo you're talking about right there with the living room and the two bedrooms, kitchen, that's for your family only? No, no, no, it's a condo. So it's like a whole, like we have a, more than 30 families living together. So it's way more than two rooms, right? That's what I, that's, Yeah, more than two rooms living together. So it's way more than two rooms, right? That's what I, that's, that's,

Yeah, more than two rooms, yes. Yeah, what I'm saying is one, you know, the, you know, the, we live, we live fifth floor, so fifth floor, we have like two housing, yes. So you're talking about when you're referring to some of those rooms, these are like the gathering rooms or the common rooms. For one family.

Okay. Yeah, for my family. Got it, okay. Now, as you said, there's only electricity These are like the gathering rooms of the common for one family one. Okay. Yeah for my family. Okay now As you said, there's only electricity two three hours a day. Do you guys have The keep fridge in a freezer. I mean those things usually got to be on yeah at all times So do they work? That's a good question. So refrigerator mainly works for like, you know some storage not like properly working for like, you know, some storage, not like properly working for the, you know, the refreshing function.

Yeah. And so North Korean people develop, you know, idea. So they purchase large batteries in their home. And while there was electricity, we charged them. So we kept the electricity. Now it's more, I think we developed more than here in America, like in a solar panel. Yes. No, when I was there in 2010, we had a solar panel there.

Yeah. In 2010? Yeah. That's like an early adopter. Yeah. In 2010? Yeah. That's like an early adopter. Yeah. So solar panel and the batteries and even like we purchased the electricity generator using gasoline. So yeah. So we are not depending on government's electricity power. We depend on ourselves rely on ourselves, but this generally is gasoline also something that's in shorter supply, too Yes, but well, but you know now like, you know high-ranking elite class they can you know purchase and they can

You know have those gasoline From China like that. So yeah. What was food like? I would say the food, the quality is totally different between core class and the middle class. Even though middle class people are not like a hostile weapon class, right? I have friends while I was in high school and the military. I saw that guy in high school. We don't have a cafeteria in high school. The school never provide a lunch.

There's no food? No food. We have to make our own lunchbox. Oh, so they There's no food. No food. We have to keep, we have to make our own in a lunchbox. Oh, so they let you bring food, though. Yeah. OK. All right. And then we share food, right?

Eat together. But that guy, like, in the whole year, he only brought, like, kimchi, whole year, 365 days. No meat. No other, you know, the foods, dish diversity. So it means that the family doesn't have other source of income to purchase other food, right? Yeah. So like that.

So, but other families, sometimes they have eggs and meats, but not many families can afford. 07.00 Were you ever hungry? 07.00 No. 07.00 No. 07.00 Yeah. So I mean, as I said, again, my father became a business official. And so I never felt I was in starvation. I never felt I was, you know, I was in starvation. But I'm sure most of North Korean people had the experience. Absolutely.

Did you have siblings as well? Yeah, I have a younger sister. A younger, one younger sister. One younger sister, yeah. Is she here in the U.S. today? Yes. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah.

Are you guys really close? Yeah. Yeah, we are close and trying to take care of each other. So I think the family is becoming more important right now because we don't have network here. We don't have other families here. And the only thing we can just sharing and then ask help is here. And the only thing we can just sharing and then ask help is family. So now I think we are more, you know, close

now, not to skip too far ahead, but just because you're bringing it up right now. Do you get obviously over there, there's a manufactured, I'd call it rivalry between North Korea and South Korea because of the propaganda. But now that you're here, and you've defected and you're on the other side, do you have a lot of support

among some of the South Korean community who lives here and is there... Can you relate, not necessarily in the same experience, but can you relate to them on a cultural level in some way? Ah, yeah. Um, actually, many South Korean, the communities, like Korean-American communities in the United States, they're trying to help escapees. But in the United States, we don't have many escapees. It's around like 300 escapees. So some of them get help finding housing or supporting by NGOs and especially the church community are trying to help escapees.

And many Korean Americans are religious and their dream is to revive Pyongyang, the capital of North Korea, as the religious herb. So Pyongyang, North Korea's capital, was once a Jerusalem of the East. Really? Early 1900. Can we Google that? I never knew that. Pyongyang, Jerusalem of the East. I love the history on this. So many missionaries went to Pyongyang. Early 1900. Why was that?

Like the country is really accepting the religion. Even like China, yes. Yeah, Joe got it. Here we go. Why North Korea's capital was once called the Jerusalem of the East. The whole Jerusalem, the holy city within holy lands. It's where Jesus preached, died on the cross

and came back to life. It was the birthplace of the church as we know it. And as the gospel spread around the globe, other cities in different countries were referred to as Jerusalem's because of the number of Christ followers who gathered there. Perhaps one of the most surprising of these cities is Pyongyang, the capital of North Korea. For the past two decades, North Korea has been one of the most dangerous places in the world to be a Christianity, more than two decades, but its capital used to be known as the

Jerusalem of the East. So what happened to cause the massive shift? a Christian, I'd say more than two decades, but its capital used to be known as the Jerusalem of the East. So what happened to cause the massive shift? All right, so it goes through the whole history. Maybe we can, this is on worldhelp.net so people can see that, but hold on, I do want to see. In 1905, everything started to change when Korea fell under Japanese occupation. Prior to that though, the rise of Christianity in Korea began in 1884 with Horace Allen. He was an American physician who worked for the royal family. He was also a Christian.

After saving the king's life, Allen received permission to preach the gospel in Korea. Upon hearing the news, missionaries from all around the world poured into Byongyang. Once they arrived, they planted churches, established universities, and built hospitals. This led to a generation of Christ followers stepping into positions of power. These new leaders had biblically inspired aspirations for the country and a passion for social change. Thus Pyongyang became the Jerusalem of the East. Wow. Yeah.

But think about that. The country once called like, you know, religious herb. Now, no religion. Only religion we can have is the ch Il-sungism, the country, the founder guy. So they dismantled the whole churches. I heard that there are so many churches in North Korea at the time. Even like one of my American friends, his mom was born in Pyongyang early 1990s, 1900, because they went to missionary, right? So there's lots of the people in North Korea at the time,

they believe church. And then later, actually the founder, Kim Il-sung's mom was devoted Christian. Oh, she was? Yeah, so he was in Christian family, grown in Christian family. Later, he dismantled the whole Christianity. So he renounced it completely himself, obviously. Yeah. And do you think I mean, I don't know if it's this simple of an explanation, but is that just a means of control? Effectively? That's really the only motivation there.

That's correct. The country is now focusing more than controlling, more controlling than other, the priorities. In the US or other countries, right? Like a free democracy society, we, you know, focusing and prioritize people's wellbeing. Sure. Now like North Korea doesn't care about people's wellbeing. It's more about controlling. And then among controlling, oh, I will provide some, you know, people's wellbeing.

So like Kim Jong Un built like a resort. I did this for people, but people cannot enjoy that. They cannot afford those luxury resort. And another thing is those resorts were built, right? And how they can sustain, how they maintain the whole resort. They are not selling this resort to North Korean people with the cash, right? The U.S. dollar bill. If they accept North Korean men, you know, the inflation and people, you know, I didn't say it, but North Korean people's average salary is 50 cents, less than $1 per month.

Per month. Yeah. So technically in North Korea, no one is relying on the payroll system So it's a miracle country fifth. Wait, wait 50 cents a month month now obviously in any translation that's gonna be nothing but Are things worth so little there that they can some people can live on that no in North Korea's law, other income than the salary

is illegally earning. So technically, you are not allowed to do market activity by the North Korean law. But North Korea cannot provide the necessity and enough income to people, salary to people, so they just close eyes on the market activity. But they are not legally protected. So at any time, at any moment, the regime can seize the asset of whole nation, any people's asset. So even though my father was vice minister at all, he got paid $1 per month.

$1 per month? Yeah. But it's not the ending. And we have duty, everybody, especially the high ranking people, they have a duty. They have to contribute those earnings to the Kim Il Sung Kim Jong Il Foundation. It's basically like a foundation for the leaders, the spiritual, the things, building the structure. Building rockets. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, stuff. So my father's accountant, the company account,

automatically cut off the salary and then send the salary. And there was a following question. How do you guys live? Yes. So for business officials like my dad, when we do business between like international business, we sell products to like Japan, China, right? And also in North Korea,

we do have government pricing system. Government give you the price. For example, if I sell coal to China, the government will decide the price. For example, if I sell coal to China, the government will decide the price. So you have to sell the coal $50 per metric ton. Other than that, if I sell 60 bucks, and then that's my earning. Do you get that? Meaning you're saying if I decide to go around the government and sell it for 60, I... No, no. Government decide the price. We'll give you the price. You have to sell over $50. $50, I have to pay back the government.

Right. So if you sell it for 60, you make a $10 profit. Yes. But a $10 profit won't be my whole profit, but I have to, you know, like, you know, giving back to a company like that. But so that's the, you know, life technique for the many North Korean business people. And other stories like, you know, security agents and other like, you know, party agent, party, like officials, they're basically living on bribery. They don't bribery. Yeah, they take briberies. And even like forced them to bribe them. Or like, technically, you know, robbing the money. So isn't that so risky, though?

Because like, if either party gets reported by one other person, you're done. But you don't have incomes, right? Yeah. Yeah. So even though it's risky and everybody's doing the same thing, so everybody is like sharing the same, you know, practice. But when things going goes wrong and that's the destructive life. So sometimes Kim Jong-un mentioned like, oh, people are corrupt.

The government encouraged the corruption. They don't pay enough money in how people keep their lives. They know it goes on because they know they're not paying people money Yeah, they know people have to have some sort of means to survive It's all it's it's like a fucked up fantasy land thinking about it because it's not even monopoly money They're playing with they're playing with monopoly like plastic coins Effectively you're talking about talking about your dad's a CEO of a government sponsored entity

and he's making a dollar a month. Like what do you think the farmer's making? Farmer's less than 50%. It's crazy, man. Now what is, what was the economy when you were growing up running on? Because, and this gets a little complicated too, the economy when you were growing up running on? And this gets a little complicated too because I know China has kind of allowed North Korea

to exist in a lot of ways because they're sanctioned around the world and now they're even sanctioned with Japan. But when you were growing up, outside of the propaganda of what the leader said they were making money on, what were the actual things that were like, this is what is keeping a couple lights on here? North Korea has a history relying on China and Russia. I mean, Soviet Union before Russia. The Soviet Union still run the system supporting each other, Soviet block economy. So Russia, Soviet Union collapsed in early 1990s, 1989, 1999.

So before that, North Korea still got supplies from China and Russia. So they distribute those basic necessities to people. So that's how North Korea's distribution system worked. What would they trade for that? There are some stops that trade, but basically mostly the Russia and China give them for free. Oh, like subsidize them? Yeah, subsidize.

Why would... Let's start with Russia. Why would the Soviet Union at the time? Why would they do that? Sob it was the main country who supports Kim regime from the beginning and Then they want to keep the socialistic, you know blocks like that and you know for I mean Soviet has the huge economy and For giving some money to North Korea. It's like not that big in a portion. It's a business expense. Yeah. Yeah. So like give them the just, you know, living and then the fund, the Kim Il-sung, he played between China and Russia. So, you know, if Russia

refused to give something and then I go China and then he gets some, he got some, you know, stuff from China, especially like the crude oil like that. Oh, good negotiator. Yeah. So he played well between China and Soviet Union. Now, but were there, you mentioned you had trade with some of these other countries. So like what kind of exports? You mentioned mushrooms.

When else were they really, what kind of products were coming out of North Korea if any? Yep Before the you know, the UN US sanctions North Korea trade with Japan mainly and other European countries as well, so especially my dad's company trades seafood mushroom and Some you know coal and gold. And then some, the perfume element, perfume, like cologne, perfume, you know, element. Yeah, those stuff. Yeah. They got good cologne and perfume in North Korea. I'm not sure.

At least it smells good there. I have no idea. I never used North Korean products. Yeah. Good for you. Yeah. Yeah. Don't support the what was the so the seafood industry though, because obviously you guys are on the ocean as well. Like, I would imagine that had to be okay, at least like you have a resource right there and the ocean's not communist. Yeah, but still it's a state owned industry, state-run fishery and the processing is all done by like labor workers in the coastal town. So they were trying to make product make a good product sell Japan You know, Japan has a high standard

Yes. Yeah, but after the closure of the diplomat Relationship between Japan and North Korea North Korea shifted the market to China So they started selling seafood and mushroom and all the products to China. But later it wasn't enough, like in terms of Chinese consumption, North Korea's seafood and mushroom is not enough. And then they realized that labor expert is more lucrative than other business. So they sent more than 10,000 labor workers to China. Now, isn't there a risk there though in the sense, and we're going to get to your story

later with where you tie in to go in there as well, but when you send people... Whoa, is that the new Kia Sportage? Yeah, I just got it. I love the updated styling and the distinctive LED lighting. And check this out. No key needed with digital key on my phone. And I can check it remotely on the Kia Connect app. I heard it also comes in a hybrid and a plug-in hybrid. It does, with a quiet ride and unbelievable fuel economy.

The new Kia Sportage is here. Visit kia.ca to learn more. Kia. Movement that inspires. It won't take long to tell you neutral's ingredients. Vodka, soda, natural flavors. So, what should we talk about? So, what should we talk about? No sugar added? Neutral. Refreshingly simple. Are you familiar with The Truman Show? You ever hear of that movie? Yep. Yep.

Okay. So when you send people outside of the Truman Show sphere mm-hmm Which let's call that North Korea even if it's China which certainly has its problems It's it's a way more open society you get access to things that you were told never existed or not even told about Possibly existing right isn't there a huge risk with people now being quite literally Outside the boundaries of the border and saying, you know what, this is better, I'm going to leave? I mean, that's correct assumption. And that's, you know, most people think even North Korean leadership, you know, thought

like that. Yeah. So they developed a preventive mechanism. What's that? So when you go to China as a labor worker, you have to live with the whole crew. It doesn't matter you're like 100, 200, 300 people. You live in one facility, dormitory, living together with people. You're not allowed to access internet.

You're not allowed to have cell phones in the facility. And then you are not allowed to leave the facility. And if you want to go hospital, go for like grocery shopping and the leader choose the members and then the leader and the security agents must accompany with those journey. Security agents? Security agents, not just one. What is that like? They are spy security agents. So they work for the intelligence service intelligence service North Korea's intelligence service

That's you know Every group you have to be you have to have one or two security agents and they accompany you anywhere Yes, I the boundaries of where you're where you are in China. Yeah, they have cell phones the labor workers are not What are they like? Are they just mean all the time? I mean those guys who were trying to you know, rob you, you know trying to take advantage of you And then they keep pressuring you. Oh, I need money but you know, so the labor workers get paid like at the time 30% of the salary if

Chinese companies pay $300 per month to labor workers, and then the labor has got $100, right? And then those agents, you know, pressuring like, you know, so labor, you know, workers, they give them like 20 bucks or like, you know, regularly like that. So they only got $70 per month like that. But there, I mean, it's still crazy cheap. But compared to what they'd be making in North Korea, they're making huge money. That's why North Korean labor workers want to stay in China, even though their life is

controlled. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, people assume that, oh, if they go to China, they can learn like a free society or they can access some internet, but in reality, not. They are still controlled and they still have life session every week and then they have to watch each other.

So among like labor workers, the security agents ask you or Joy and then, hey, can you watch each other and then I will give you a mission that you know any suspicious you know thinking activity comments by your peers you have to report to me I will give you incentive right yeah so like that so every like you know among five people there was a one spy guy so if we have like in you know, among five people, there was one spy guy. So if we have like a drinking party among five people, and if we make a joke, like criticize regime, that conversation will be delivered to security guy.

Unless you kill him. But we don't know who that person is. Oh, you don't know who he is. So you can't just shoot him. Yeah, I can assume that. Oh, that's person might be but man, you don't know who he is. So you can't just shoot him. Yeah, I can't assume that Oh, that's push might be but man, no one's you know, it's like having a flight marshal everywhere you go. You don't know what city is in. Yeah. So that's why we like most North Koreans reluctant to express their real opinion. Whoa. So they're alright. That that's interesting though. So a lot of North Koreans, again, like I'm trying to put myself in your shoes, which

is not possible because I have a baseline understanding as I grow up of like, oh, I can think this or do this. You didn't have that. But by that insinuation, you're saying a lot of North Koreans or a number of them actually do have a secret opinion like this is bullshit. Yeah. Yeah. They do, they do. Good for them, but yeah.

Like I was in China, right? I mean, we will go into that later, but I was in China. I visited North Korea Labor Workers' Facility as well. I was like, wow, this is not... At least I hope they can learn Chinese and they can access Chinese TV to learn, right? And then they can have some information how China provides the people's life. But it wasn't enough for North Korean labor workers. So, but this type of thing, my opinion,

I share with really close friend, but if I feel like not that close enough, I wouldn't. That's, I mean, that's really risky for me and my family. When was... I don't even know if you would remember this, but when do you think was the first time... How old were you the first time in your head can remember formulating an opinion about something related to North Korea where in your head you're saying some version of this is bullshit. So after my military service, three years and four months, I went to China as an overseas

North Korean student. How old are you at this point? There was a 20 when I was 20, 21. You had never really had a thought like that before? No. But even though I was in China, I never had such opinion. It took me almost three years to think differently. So before I came to China, we had a session from the government. If you go to China, you shouldn't believe this, you wouldn't believe this.

That's all the capitalism propaganda and then your life. We are strictly live under socialistic life. You are not allowed to live with the capitalistic life. So the whole education is more whatever you see, whatever access, it's like you shouldn't believe. So technically that's the main education for everybody who goes out. Yeah. And then it took me like more than two years to realize that it took me like more than two years to realize that government's propaganda is totally lie. And it's far beyond the reality. All right, let's stick a pin in that. Okay, we're gonna come

back to that because I really want to dig into sure what it was like coming in the ground on China, but I just still have more about even your developmental years. So we talked about love and the concept of that. That's great that there's still, I mean, I would think that too. You know, there's still a human thing for sure. It's just very strange when everyone, including your parents, has been brainwashed to believe in this kind of fake world.

So you don't know if that would be understood as much, but at least you had that. That's great was do you was there any such thing as like in your childhood like that innocent childhood happiness did you know what happiness felt like or or were there things that made you feel like like or were there things that made you feel like I'm very excited to be alive today? And what were those things, if so? I think I have. Yeah. You know, child is very pure thing.

Yeah. They don't have many other thoughts. And then technically, I think they don't have worry, like the concern. So playing with kids, having a small car models, like the figure. You had Hot Wheels? I mean, someone gave it to me. Someone who visits China, you know, China, you know,

purchase the small car, like, you know, the figure like this. Yeah. Was that legal? Yeah. I mean, it's like a gift, right? So I mean, that kind of thing makes me so happy. And because it could be interpreted like this. Other people, they don't have such thing, but I have.

As a kid, I'm so happy, and then I just, you know, go out and then, you know, bragging, like, hey, I have this, and then you don't have. And then even some, like, legos. Not like, you know, the fancy legos like here, but like, parts of the legos. So we do have. So, yeah. And as a kid, we shared and then played together. legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy legacy like Marias and yeah, Super Marias. So you know, you have at least that innocence to enjoy a good smile and a good laugh and socialize and things like that.

Do you ever remember – I'll ask about your sister in a second, but do you ever remember your parents, I don't know, smiling and being happy together or among you, or were they more serious? So I went to like top schools, elementary school and high school. The elementary school called Geumseong Academy, which is raising music talents talents artists in North Korea It's very famous school in North Korea at the First Lady of North Korea went to same the same school with me She's like four years younger than me, but did you know her? No, I'd like no, but we went to same school. So I mean

Yeah, but I mean I I know her, the classmates. Later I found that her classmates like, you know, like, you know, serving people like, I mean, not just serving, but you know, when you have like a party, like, you know, her classmates came to the party and then some of them, they are singers and the music talents and then do it and and and then like the high school the Pyongyang for language school

So the commute time is so long like more than hours So I woke up very early and came back very late You know if I come back to home and it's almost in 8 p.m. 9 p.m But my father, you know, he was the government official and then he traveled a lot and also he worked so hard from early morning to late. So we don't have much time actually have conversation. It's only like a Sunday. By the way, North Korea has only one weekend. I was just going to ask you if because you had said a term earlier, like one of the days of the week, I think you said Saturday.

Saturday is life session. So I was going to ask you if it's like, obviously they have to operate on a 365 day year, but is it the same thing where your Monday is like Monday or? Yes, Monday is Monday, but Saturday is more like life session that you have to, you know, the review your whole life, whole week life. Review it? Yeah. And then you have to report it.

To who? To your, if you're a student, you report to the teacher or professor. So you have to tell them everything you did that week outside of school. Yeah, especially the bad things you did. Oh, so it's like that's similar to the science. I was telling you about Scientology before. Yeah, yeah.

Which I told you, you got to look into that. Yeah, yeah. Very interesting. But, god damn it, I'm forgetting the term right now, but they have, what is it? Auditing, yeah, they do like a personal auditing where they have to like share the bad things they did or whatever.

So you kind of have like an auditing session on Saturdays. That's true. That's more formal term, I think. Yeah, that's a good term. But our term is life session. Life session. Life is- That's more marketable.

Yeah, but another way to say is self-criticism session. Self-criticism. Yes. So we criticize ourselves. So oh, this week I didn't study hard. And that means my loyalty decreased. Your loyalty decreased. Yes.

That's what we have to express. These are like video game points. Like you lost like 10 points of energy. That's what we have to express. These are like video game points. Like you lost like 10 points of energy. That's great. But it's more like a self-reveal the secret. But it's more like normal thing in North Korea. So we really don't think it's critical. But you have to do it.

So every time I write in a paper, I have to create my problems during the week. Oh, what did I do? Like, you know, let's say I didn't study hard this week, but next week I cannot repeat that. So this week I didn't clean the leaders portraits. Well, you had to clean the leaders portraits. Yeah. You have to keep it clean. Yeah, clean that way. You have to keep without any dust. Without any dust. Yeah, if you find it,

you'll be punished. You have to write like Windex or something you can use. No, what are you using? When there's that's more like a fancy items. Just put that shit on everything. That's more fancy item. So we just clean with the cloth and like that. Okay. Cloth and water. Not water because they are afraid to damage the paper. Oh, so it's not behind glass or anything?

Behind the glass, but still like the water can, you know, go in that and then, you know, we're not allowed to use the water. Yeah. I mean, the surface is fine, but so that's another thing. And then the other one is, oh, this big, I didn't help, you know, you know, the old people who are walking across the street like that, like this, you have to create something.

But the other part of this, you know, auditing session is you have to criticize your peer. Oh, oh shit. Yeah, so I have to criticize you. Hey Julian, why did you study hard this time? Or like this week, why you, you know, came late for school? So sometimes it hurts feelings. And then why you criticize me?

You know, you have like 20 people, 30 people. Oh, they're all there watching? Yeah, we together as a class at the class we do you know whole session together right so you got a snitch on each other yeah so sometimes after the session they argue why why me like so like you know did you ever have to like stand on business yeah so because we have a not like a class but the ranking right you know boys have rankings right like you know fighting like you know so if like you don't like it and then why criticize me and sometimes argue and the later we have a mutual

agreement so you criticize me and then I'll criticize him. So we made an agreement. So we made an agreement that we can do. So later we don't argue anymore. That's the Saturday, the whole Saturday in the morning for Saturday and then afternoon we have to clean whole, you know the the school All like, you know your facility even like the military same thing. What did that? I mean I had to feel like work to you. That's not fun at all. No, no, so you hated that

I mean everybody hates that but you have to do you have to do it, so you accepted it. I mean, no way. There is no way you can choose or you can deny. You can't play hooky, get away? I mean, yes, sometimes. Sometimes you could. If you finished cleaning earlier, then you can play some soccer and like that. So okay, you can go back, but it's more. But sometimes like the not class leaders but teacher and then you know the

News league, you know leader came and then you know, just no do it again If say that do it again and then we have to do it again. Whoa So Sunday is the only day that's the weekend day. That's the weekend day and then would you do on Sundays? That's what I'm trying to say with my dad. So Sunday is the weekend day. And then would you do on Sundays? That's what I'm trying to say with my dad. So Sunday is the only day with my dad I can communicate, right? And then we can have a dinner together. So we had a, you know, better life than normal North Korean citizens. So Sunday, we usually go out to eat, like, eating like Korean barbecue. like eating like Korean barbecue. Oh.

Yeah. So the higher-end food like that is a similar cultural phenomenon of, say, South Korea. Yeah. Very interesting. I think very similar. I mean, if North Korea was not controlled by North Korean, you know, the Kim family regime. And I think the life, the whole, the cycle is similar to South Korean families.

Like, you know, working days and then weekends go out to eat and, you know, visit some park like that. I want to go back real quick to the Saturday thing though, the self... what was it? Life... Life session. Life session. In other ways, self-criticism session. How do you say that in Korean? 생활총화. Okay.

So you do that, I don't want to repeat that and get that wrong. But auditing session is more... it's a good thing though. Good term though. Yeah, good term. No, let's a good thing, though. Good term, though. Yeah, good term. But I'm just thinking about like, as you're growing up, and you're going through normal biological, you know, evolution, and you know, you turn from being a nine year old innocent kid, and then you start going through puberty when you're 12 or 13, or whatever, because it's such an invasion of privacy. You're in front of a bunch of other people, you feel pressured to have to tell the truth.

You've grown up in a world that tells you, you must tell the truth, and we're gonna know when you're not telling the truth, therefore you need to share the types of secrets that other people would keep to themselves in other countries. Did it ever feel, did you get to a point where, and I don't want to get like, weird with this, but did it get to a point where you felt compelled to have to say you did

things that are quote unquote, wrong that, you know, felt invasive to your privacy to discuss that out loud? Yes and no. But as a kid, sometimes you don't differentiate your privacy and then you know, the the things that you can open to public. So it's a little bit ambiguous to me. You know, it's more like my privacy or I have to tell the truth. I have to tell to the public or with the you know, it's more like my privacy, or I have to tell the truth, I have to tell to the public or with the, you know, the session. So we don't have a concept of privacy. Nobody can claim it's my privacy in North Korea. So that's a good word. And then the word actually doesn't exist in North Korea, the privacy.

They don't have a word for that. Yeah, I don't think we do. We do have such words, especially privacy. So there's no such thing in your mind as shutting the door to a room in your house and sitting there alone with your thoughts away from everyone else. There's no such thing. Your thoughts are always attached to the machine. Even your thoughts. Even my thoughts.

So I'll give a simple example why I don't think we have a privacy, the term privacy. So sometimes the police raid your home to check if we are keeping other travelers in your home. When you travel to North Korea, within North Korea, you have to get the travel permit. If you don't have, you're not allowed to stay in hotels or any friend zones. So sometimes North Korean police, at the middle of the night, just knock, knock,

and open the door, check the house, if they keep other individuals in your home. So that's, you know, that definitely is not privacy. They just came, come in. And then they open all the doors and then, you know, even like, you know, the drawers, like the clothing drawers. So, that's the one. And then... If you work on the street,

if I listen to the music and the police will just, you know, catch you and then they will open your bag, I mean, the backpack and whatever your bags you have. And then even like the cassette tape or MP3 you are listening, they will listen to you, they will check. Oh, so you did have like MP3 players? Yes, they were like Chinese MP3 players. What would you listen to on a quick tangent? So I never listen to on that quick tangent?

So I never listen to music in public, because all the music we are listening is South Korean music and then some American music. So wouldn't it be just owning an MP3 would be assumed to be illegal? Like, was there music? That was the question I was going to ask earlier. Did North Korea have like North Korean pop stars?

Yes, we did it we do but I mean it's all like every day the whole like in hours public, you know the propaganda and then the the people the singers sing song about the pop Shittiest music. Yeah. So why would I download those songs in my music, I mean, MP3 to listen again? You can listen free for free, like, you know, from the TV show, so why? So, you know. So they would check to see if you had things downloaded

that weren't that. Yeah. Which is pretty much anyone. Anyone. So there's no such a privacy. You cannot climb, you can. You can never climb. You can never climb. It's my privacy. You cannot check my bags like that. No. If you're a 12 year old, they come and search your house for, you know, I mean, this sounds, of course it's sinister. It's like they're searching for Anne Frank in the attic whenever they want. But like,

they come to your house to search and among this search, you at age 12, they find your MP3 player, they turn it on and they're like, well, that's Michael Jackson. That's a problem. Do you get arrested at age 12 or do your parents get arrested? What happens? That's a good question. Whole family, not arrested, but the whole family will be relocated to the rural area. To do what? Like go out the pasture? Yeah, because you have illegal publication or media. So is this like a prison type thing? No.

They developed a law lately, like in 2020, but when I was in North Korea, it's before the law, right? And then one of my high school mates was caught in his home watching South Korean drama. And while he was watching, I said earlier, we have a two or three hours electricity, and he was watching the drama, and then police, they turn off the electricity and then just raid their home. And then while at the time we were watching K-drama and then American movies through the cassette

tape and the CDs, right? You cannot take out if you don't have electricity. So that's they got the evidence, inside evidence. So he was caught and he told the police that when the police asked him, how did you get it? So, but he's a young, like a teenager. What can we say, right? How did he get it? Yeah, he told the police that, oh, my dad got it.

So whole family like punished it. And then they were relocated from the Pyongyang city to rural area. And then they are banned to living in the Pyongyang city forever. Forever. Forever. The whole family. Whole family.

Including the bloodline that would come. No. No. I mean, I mean, the relatives are okay, but the direct family. But like if that kid, the 12 year old has a kid, the kid can't go. So they're casted away in the system forever. For watching the DVD. No, the kid can't go. No, so they're a cast it away in the system for ever Yeah for watching a DVD watching the DVD That's the

That's the risk for watching any You know Korean dramas and American movies, but but you know still people are enjoying the foreign movies still people are enjoying the foreign movies. I was gonna say, it sounds like you're making it sound like a lot of people did that. Yeah. I mean, I would say they're not enjoying, like, you know, boundaries between North Korean,

you know, punishment and then the American music, but I think it's more like natural for people to have interest in other culture. Right? Absolutely. Yeah. So even though they knew they'll be punished if they were caught, but they're still watching it. And I, you know, my first access to American music was, one of my friends actually lived in South America, Peru and Venezuela as a diplomat.

His father was a diplomat, and, you know, another one was... He's an arms dealer, so he was born in Cuba, though. He liked people. You're just hitting all the hot spots here. Yeah. So, uh... But they lived in South America, and they accessed, you know, American music at the time. So they, when they came back to North Korea,

they brought whole stuff, the music videos, the CDs. And then the first CD I saw was Backstreet Boys. The whole like, you know, you know, as long as you love me and like, you know, this stuff. So, no, that's kind of, you know, as long as you love me and like, no, there's stuff. As long as you love me. No, that's kind of, you know, like trend in those students studying English. It's like kind of our secret.

But they would bring it back at their own risk. They're bringing it through North Korean customs, like smuggling it effectively. Yeah, they're smuggling it basically. And they're risking their whole family being sent to... fucking Missouri, of North Korea. As a teenager, we never saw that, you know, serious things.

We just, you know, loved it. They loved it, they brought it. But later we found out that if we were caught, that could be a really serious problem. Oh, so you didn't know at first. They didn't know, and then I even didn't know, like you know, we know that it could be punishment, but still we love to listen and watching the music video,

and sometimes I didn't, so the whole music video I watched, there are two music videos. One was Backstreet Boys and one was Britney Spears. So the songs were not... They couldn't bring it Timberlake, huh? No. So they told me, those guys who went to South America told me they are the two hot group and lady at

the time only 2000. What did you think when you saw that? You've never seen anything like this before. The thing about music, I remember talking with someone who's just one of the greatest music talent evaluators ever and I was asking him about like it. He's like, oh yeah yeah, like you you know He's like when you're when you're discovering music for the first time meaning like him Meaning the public hasn't really heard this yet

He knows right away if they have it or not But he said the reality is I just haven't attuned ear to it the public knows it too Because when we put it out they all bump it and there's a reason they do that. So you've never heard anything like this before, meaning you don't have something really to compare it to. But when you watch this, were you like, because you know, they were the hottest thing at the time, were you like, Whoa, this is good. Like you're moving to it a little bit. Yeah.

So here's the thing. If it's only audio, I may focus on the lyrics, right, and the melody, but it's a video, music video. So the first thing we, you know, focused was the whole, the background, the music and lyrics was the second, like the background, you know, the people are acting and they, you know, driving cars and like that, the dress and then, you know, driving cars and like that, the dress, and then, you know, the Britney Spears, the baby one more time, it's like featuring high school,

like a kids' right life. So I was like, oh, is this American high school life like that? So more focused on the background, the video. Later we, you know, trying to, you know, sing the lyrics and the melody. Did you speak any English at this time? That's the thing, because we are a student of the Pyongyang 4 language school. So we learned English.

So you did at this time when you're watching it, you knew some. Yes. That's why we are interested in English, the songs. Yeah, and then some songs, I liked it, and some songs, I mean, I felt like their dressing and then their, you know, the appearance looks like weird to me. Tattoo and stuff, and then I was like, wow. And then we were educate that that's type of the capitalistic life.

So tattoos. Yeah, tattoos and then you know the the jeans and like you know so. So deep over here would be a poster child for we don't like this shit. Yeah got it. Yeah, that was a picture you Kim Young in. But he loves Dennis Rodman. Dennis Rodman has this huge, you know, portion of time to he does. And you know what? Dennis Rodman was unexpectedly one of the peacemakers of our time, which is so...

You know you're living in the simulation, like we knew it when you had a president, Donald Trump, calling Dennis Rodman to talk to a North Korean leader about resisting nuclear force. It's like, what the fuck? Wait a minute, what happened here? You know, something went wrong. I have a little different opinion. So Kim Jong-un wanted Michael Jordan to come to North Korea. So Michael Jordan said, I know. So they picked Dennis Rodman.

So Kim Jong-un liked the Chicago Bulls. So I wouldn't say Kim Jong-un would listen to Dennis Rodman because he already met several times. So if Trump picked Michael Jordan to go to North Korea to convince him, hey, release people and then don't develop nuclear weapons, Kim Jong-un might think about. So you're saying Michael Jordan has a Nobel Peace Prize sitting at his fingertips right now. Yeah, he could.

Come on, his airness. Do it for the people. Yeah. I mean, I mean, Julian Dory should recommend Michael Jordan to the North Korea to make a piece still. Clip that. Right now is excellent. Okay. Yeah, we'll come back to that because I do want to dig into to Kenyon anymore. But you were obviously talking about when you're hearing the Backstreet Boys and stuff for the first time, so you have the English background, but had you ever seen...

I don't know how much imagery was completely banned at that point within the walls of North Korea to you, but had... you obviously hadn't really seen people with tattoos or something like that, but had you... Well, you did say you had the children of some of the defectors at your school. Other than that, had you seen white people, black people, European people, you know,

other types of Asian people, or had you not had a lot of exposure to that? Not really, because not many foreigners visit North Korea at the time and I mean No value No, I know but at the time there's no value truly Yeah, and now like they develop more like the scenery is and they stop and then it's North Korea is viewed as you know

Totally isolated country by the foreign tourists. So now it's more people are making videos and then the video content on online, and they get so many views. So that's why they visit. If there's no YouTube, I would hardly say that people visit North Korea. And isn't a lot of that illegal? What they're getting, like some of the videos they take. Oh, there was a legal and illegal. So how does that work?

So the legal stuff is already on the, you know, some people's, uh, the YouTube channel and Tik Tok. So the government will ask you the things that you can capture. Other than that, you are not allowed. Even though you capture such things, unless you hide them, they will reveal it and they will cut you out. Those videos from your production. Or arrest you. Sometimes, yes. Yes.'s a not allowed to capture everything so they only showed nice places so that that's the thing I want

to talk to you know the tourists some people they have you know real opinion because they realize that it's the only thing North Korean regime wanted to show them, right? Yes. But some other people, they're, oh, North Korea looks very normal, similar to American society or like Western country. But what they are seeing is just the tip of the iceberg, right? They haven't explored the whole country and then the deeper side of the people's life, right?

So that's a thing that they should think about Why this country look like this? Absolutely. I'm sure that you know Every tourist place has a nice place in the bad place. But the difference is we can you know Visit every places right but in North Korea not and even those, you know the Interpreter and then guide. Yes, there are the North Korean regimes I mean the intern sometimes but they got mission. That's right They have two missions they have to record every conversation they had. Record it.

I mean, not like a little like in the recording, but they have to make a log and then conversation record. So when I said log means this morning, if you visit for running, came back at 8.30, and had breakfast. And then he had two eggs like that. Everything should be written, form, to submit. And then if you go to restaurant, and then we have to write everything, like the dish we had. And then if you randomly had a casual conversation with the people next to your table,

like North Korean people, I have to write down. Like that, so whole things are monitored. And in your, the hotel room, there are bugs. Oh yeah. Webtapping. Yep. Yep, so they should be careful there. I was telling you a minute before when we were,

when we were at the train station about my buddy Wally Green, who went to North Korea on, basically as he's a professional ping pong player on, he wanted to, he wanted to see it, but he also wanted to provide some sort of like, piece through ping pong in a way. And through what he ended up doing, he did. It's really an amazing story, but he was supposed to be there

for like seven or eight days, he ended up staying five. And he was like, give me the fuck out of here. But he talked about it, the minder, which is exactly what you're referring to. And he was like, his minder was really hot. It was a female. So I think he was also saying he had like a thing for Asian women and they might've known that ahead of time.

So, you know, he was saying the way that she would describe things, anytime he would ask a question, she would be like, our Supreme Leader is doing this for the people. And he'd be like, yeah, but what about that? No, no, no, you don't look at that. And he'd be like, yeah, but what about that? No, no, no, you don't look at that. And he'd be like, oh.

So they wouldn't, they wouldn't, not only would they not show them things, they would be like, no, no, no, that doesn't exist or whatever. No, that's not a real thing. Like he would say something, he does a way better job explaining. It was episode 147, so people can listen to that.

But like, it was, it was a total, he couldn't even ask questions about the range of society, if you will. Like, what might even be a normal range, which it's not over there, but that would just be totally shut down. And he got... Part of the reason he left is because after he had done a lot of the ping pong stuff and that was over and he was still supposed to be there, he got really paranoid about the minder and whether or not they might decide to arrest him and he was like, I just got to go.

I think his experience is exactly right. I think he explained well the whole experience of the tourism in North Korea. You had been talking about sometimes if you finished your work on Saturdays early, you might go play soccer. So you guys had sports and stuff over there. Besides soccer, what else did you guys play? We usually played cheaper, you know. Chipper?

Yeah, cheaper soccer. I mean, cheaper sports. Okay, cheaper sports cheaper sports and that like a one ball play with several kids and especially soccer basketball and those sports not using fancy gears and you know stuff that's right yeah so not like hockey or something like that hockey is more fancy, right? And then also golf never dreamed of you know playing golf Yeah, yeah, do they have golf courses in North? Yes, we did practice, you know the golf course and Have you seen the news Kim Jong-un is you know golf like, you know professional? He can't be good

He finished like, you know, there was a news that he can't he finished like 18 holes like something like that. So Kim Jong-un Kim Jong-un. a news that he finished like 18 holes, like something like that. So Kim Jong-un. He's reporting that he's like a scratch golfer. There was a news probably. But it's all fake. Of course. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Let's see behind Kim Jong-un's famous round of golf. Let's go down.

All right. With the US Open fast approaching the famously, with a famously penal course in the Pittsburgh area, I'd like to set the record straight on one of history's most astounding rounds of golf and achievements so outlandish it could pass as myth. No, I'm not thinking what you think I'm thinking, which should come as a relief since Johnny Miller's closing 63 at Oakmont and 73 has been picked over to death. The round I have in mind took place in a setting far more punishing than any open venue and the 18 hole tally makes Miller's sizzling score look like a number posted by a weekend shop. I'm referring to what else? The 38 under par 34 reportedly fired by the late North Korean despot, so this was his father, Kim Yong-il. A man, I just, every time I hear Kim Yong-il,

I just think of Team America. You ever seen that movie? No. You never saw this? The South Park? You ever hear of South Park? The show? No, no. Oh, man, we're gonna have to... We're gonna have to educate you on some of this. So, these guys make the most insane cartoon.

It's run for like three decades called South Park. And they just make fun of everything. It's very R-rated. But they made a movie in 2003 with like Muppets. And the Muppets would be like Osama bin Laden, Kim Yong-il, and it's called Team America with like, you know, American Special Forces guys like going in to like shoot it up.

And I just picture that Kim Yong-il anyway. But, all right, so Kim Yong- Anyway, but I see. All right. So Kim Young Ill, a man known to his people as dear leader to you and me as dear top of the leaderboard. According to the official North Korean state accounts, Kim's round, the first he'd ever played was was highlighted by five aces, which for non-golfers, that means a hole in one. by five aces, which for non-golfers, that means a hole in one. Okay, so there's like a legend that... Yeah, legend. And that's full, I mean, that's for his father,

but I mean, the current leader, Kim Jong-un, like, you know... He's firing a 32 out there? I mean, he's more talented, according to the North Korean publication. I'm trying to picture him getting a golf club around his body body. That's a lot of there's a lot of girth there. He could have some power though. Maybe john Daly could teach him. He can do a pretty good job getting around. Wow. So they do have golf courses there of course is not that many

though. Right. Many like I would say two or three who plays Who plays there? I mean, simply speaking, no one. So they, there was a risk of playing golf for like me. Golf is not cheap in a sports. If I play golf, I have to spend some money, right? They only accept the American blood cash. So, so, so, and if I spend $5, that means it's out of my income. And it could be investigation by the some, you know, the security guys. So I have to make in a dollar a month.

Yeah. So even like me, like less than 50 cents, right? Yeah. So I have to deal with those guys, and then they, you know, ask bribery. So I have to give them if I want to survive. So, you know, the whole... So I'm trying to avoid this, you know, inconvenience. Yes.

So what they do with this golf course, they hold, not annual, but several years, they hold international golf competition. In North Korea. In North Korea. And there was two crazy Australian guys. They are not professional golf players. They registered as professional golf players,

and they actually went to Pyongyang. They participated in the competition and North Korea wouldn't recognize they are the pro or amateur. Australian imposters play official golf tournament in North Korea. There it is. Yeah. Morgan Rueg and Evan Shea both 28 were on a polo trip in Beijing. On a polo, there's a lot going on here on a polo trip in Beijing when they heard about the competition, they successfully applied to play as the Australian team and wore green blazers bearing the national logo.

The men who do not play professionally left North Korea without problems after the event. The two day tournament brought 85 participants from around the world to North Korea's only golf course in Pyongyang. The Australian pair were championed, were chaperones throughout the five-day trip to which included a tour of the capital where they placed a bouquet at a monument of, oh that was nice of them, they put a bouquet at the monument, the country's leaders. And we were very nervous handing our passports over at the border. You have to. There's no exemption. Right. Alali was saying he couldn't get his passport back and he had to like really press

to get it back. And then he was able to fly out. And the North Korean regime make a propaganda that every, you know, individuals from international society respects our leaders. So that's why they, know, yeah, no send in the flowers like that But that's for the propaganda anyway, I The one guy says I hit 120 and my caddy told me I had brought My caddy told me I had brought great shame to my family We played very poorly, but we met some very interesting They were invited again. I mean, maybe, you know, but I wouldn't recommend to go back.

No. They will capture them and torture them. I mean, this is no disrespect. Pyongyang is not on my list of destinations. I mean that very nicely. I hope it will be one day with North Korea free. I think that would be awesome. But I would get, even if I didn't have a job like this, just as a normal person, I would get very nervous as an American crossing that border just because of how,

I mean, like you were explaining, they got minders everywhere. It's propaganda everywhere. They, you don't even have to step out of line They decide you step one foot out of line. There you go. You're arrested Now you are dismissed. You cannot because you already interviewed me No, it's gonna you know show We're I mean the see the interview and then oh, they're're going to see this? Yeah, if you were a peer in North Korea, and then they will arrest you, and then, you know, interrogate you why you had an interview with him,

and then like that, and then if you have family members who are American government officials or military personnel, and then they will check all the things, and then they were trying to, you know, convince you to become a spy, or you become a spy or like that. Good luck with that. To the North Korean government, whatever people watching, you know, maybe we could put a translator on this,

but you're not gonna be seeing me any time soon, I'm sorry. That's interesting though, that there's still, I mean, cause like you said, there's only what, like 300 defectors in the US, something like that. So it makes sense, They would track all of them It's ideas getting out. That's the worst thing they can have But there are 35,000 escapees in South Korea That's still not that many not that many you said this is a country of 25 million people and only 35

Yeah, and then what's the diaspora around the rest of the world? Maybe 15,000, 20,000, something like that? Probably something like that. So you're talking overall less than 100,000 people have made it out of there to tell their story. Yeah. That is fucking wild. And then after the pandemic, Kim Jong-un increased the border more, the security.

So this crazy guy put the mines in the border. Oh my God. Between China and North Korea, and then the wires with the high, you know, bolt electricity. So, I mean, who would do that to this, you know, its own people? So, and the border patrols would inform that any attempt

to escape, you can shot them at any moment. So in the past, they were not that like that. They were not instructed to shoot. They wouldn't shoot you. I mean, they were instructed to capture them. But I'm like, shooting is not that easy for anybody, right? Shoot people. But they were instructed now, like you can shoot them.

What happens when people are captured trying to escape? It depends on their ranks or their background. So like normal people living in border area, if they were captured and then they will be, punish it and then torture it sometimes and beaten. And then they will eventually released. They will be released. Released because they think it's not value enough.

There is no value enough to put them in prison. But if those people courtesized the regime after they escaped and then captured and then came back, or they were part of the activities related religious activities. And then they cannot be released. They will be imprisoned in political prison camp. Forever. Forever.

I mean, political prison camp is not the place you can come and go out. Once you imprisoned, you will live forever. If you have a kid and if you have a baby there, the baby have to live in the facility there. And yeah. Oh, the baby has to live with you? Yeah, the prison camp. So.

So their life is there and never leaves. Their life is, you know, there's a prisoner. And then... And the high-ranking officials and then, like, IT guys who were trying to escape if they were caught by Chinese and they sent back to North Korea, they were not ever released to the public lately. They will be sent to political prison camp.

And during the pandemic, I know several IT guys and other officials trying to escape. Because North Korean regime blocked the border, they couldn't send them back. But in Beijing, in the embassy, North Korean embassy in Beijing, in the embassy, North Korean embassy in Beijing, they built underground prison facility in the embassy, and then they put them there. So for the like...

An underground prison facility. In Beijing embassy. Basically a torture chamber. Torture chamber. So they were there like two or three years. And after the pandemic, they were sent to the North Korean prison camp. And then some of them actually sent a letter to the pastors and then, you know, asking help. We are captured here. I'm delivering this letter through, you letter through secret channel, like Chinese people.

How would they get the letter out? So before they were transferred to North Korean embassy, the chamber torture facility, they were in the Chinese police prison. And that's the moment today gave the letter, gave the letter to other Chinese individuals, hey, can you pass this letter to any South Korean person, pastor or government? So yeah. So China is a supporting agent for North Korea to do their bidding when North Korea needs to recapture or reclaim people. That is dark.

If you see the map between, you know, China, Russia, North Korea, North Korea is neighbor with only three countries. South Korea, Russia, China. And, you know, in the middle, the DMZ, it's really heavily armed area, so there's no chance, basically, to escape through that, you know, DMZ.

And China is, you know, longest in a border country with North Korea. So many people escaped through China. But Chinese police now, they increased the cameras and then they utilize AI, you know, face recognition technology. So one of the guy who was trying to escape, he left his group with another person and then they were hiding the facility provided by the South Korean pastors. Less than 48 hours, the Chinese police exactly found them because they put a lot of security cameras there.

They traced them and then they found them and then they captured them. So yeah, it's very unfortunate for those people who are trying, but the Chinese government's argument is they never recognize North Korean people as a refugee. What is outside of the idea that China is run by a communist party and I guess North Korea is a similar ideology to them, what is the logic for China wanting to support the tyrannical aspects of North Korea? So China fought during the Korean War. They sent millions of people and... Millions. Millions.

Soldiers, almost. And it's not like open statistics, but Chinese people assumed that 300,000 soldiers were killed during the Korean War. It's more than North Korean soldiers. So because of Chinese military, US and the UN Army cannot liberate the whole country. But what China feels most is they don't want the US or UN, the Western culture, close to China. And they are afraid of the political system, different political system come towards China. And then they think it could be bad influence to Chinese people to request a political change in China. Now it's one party control the dictatorship in China. And more like while I was in China,

it was still like flex, there was some flexibility. They hide their intention and then they pursue more openness and reform and they're trying to adopt innovations. Now, the current Chinese leader is more the control guy. Like he was to be a second Mao Zedong, which is more control to society. So China officially supporting North Korea as a bloat ally ally and then they don't want to lose North Korea and they recognize North Korea as a bumper zone. That makes sense.

When you feel like your people could go doing the one thing you don't want them to do, which is to get some crazy ideas for themselves when you're insulated by other places that are under a similar, I guess, motivation. It makes you... It makes you comfortable with the devil you know, I guess. But that is really sinister considering, you know, and this is really saying something,

the human rights abuses of the North Korean regime, even I would say far outweigh the very well-known, awful human rights abuses of the Chinese regime. And it's just, it's wild to me. It's sometimes crazy to me that we live on a planet now that's so interconnected through the internet. And I know it's obviously turned off in places like North Korea and stuff like that,

but we have the ability to see other people and other experiences across the world at the snap of a finger. And yet we still have such... not just ideological, but dystopian... Mm-hmm....separ separation between certain groups of people just on the basis of where you're born. That is so sad to me.

Yeah, really sad part. Especially people who lived in North Korea, I think it's the country only country isolated people from the total like many aspects I mean like China or other countries they still have some flexibility to access you know outside information at least you know internet even though it's controlled, but North Korea, it's not. So sometimes when I talk to US government people or other scholars, we need to give more information to North Korean people.

So that... Yeah, and we're not encouraging regime change, but I really hope North Korean people can have more information so that they can decide their future. How would, let's go down this tangent for a minute. So I mean, I think the internet is the most crucial, you know, part for the information access so that when Elon Musk tweeted like, oh, we have like a Stalin constraint on camp and I just make comments.

What about North Korea? All right. So first question there, what is the internet because it is completely controlled? What is the quote unquote internet like in North Korea right now? We have intranet. It's an internal system to run, but as I mentioned earlier, we don't have much electricity and not many people access intranet. And then intranet is totally controlled. There's no Google or anything like that. No Google, no YouTube, no TikTok or like that.

no TikTok or like that. Intranet is monitored by the North Korean regime. And there was an example in 2004. We had a random chatting, not application, but website. In the website called Nenara, which translates my country, they have a random chatting room so that you can add friends and then connect each other as college students. One of my friends organized a basketball game through this chatting room. He posted it and said, hey, we want to have a basketball competition between colleges. So Pyongyang colleges, right?

So the famous college in Pyongyang, Kim Il-sung University and Pyongyang for, uh, Pyongyang studies of university. Like almost, you know, a hundred students gathered, they played game. They enjoyed it. What happened? The very next day, North Korean regime shut down the website because they think it's forbidden. It's like unauthorized communication tool. North Korean regime never allowed this competition. Even it's like a small gathering. So we don't allow to organize any events unauthorized by the regime.

That's the thing that's more intranet stuff. Now, internet is more used by foreigners in North Korea. To buy foreigners. Yeah. Those tourists and also diplomats in North Korea. In the past, they don't have internet, Oh, by foreigners. Yeah. Those tourists and also diplomats in North Korea. In the past, they don't have internet, but now it's more like advanced society and diplomats require internet using emails. But the government can monitor all that, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Basically. And then in 2013, I brought my Chinese partner to Pyongyang. So he stayed in Korea Hotel, the very nice hotel in North Korea, even though it's very nice. It's like a tourist hotel like in the United States.

Who is this Chinese one? Chinese partner, my business partner. Right. Yeah. I helped him purchase the plan for the internet and then the SIM card. So that's the only thing that only people can use internet. As a North Korean citizen, only Kim family members can use internet. Other than that, we were not.

Nobody, no one, even though you are high ranking official, you cannot. Whoa. Now, how... The reason I ask about the internet first is because it is the greatest equalizing tool when it's actually able to be accessed, which is problem numero uno here. But if you... Not even waving a magic wand, just like from a 30,000 foot in the air view strategy, if you could design how regime change in North Korea would happen internally, what do you

think would need to go down for that to be the case? Internal regime replacement would be more challenging. It takes time. The regime designed never allowing any internal riot or internal organization against regime. So even though you are military commander, you have like, you know, 10,000 soldiers under you under your control. You're not allowed to move any military. What do you mean you're not allowed to move them?

So in the North Korean unit, I served in North Korean military from the beginning under force corps. If you're a force commander, it doesn't... your authority doesn't allow you to move the military only by yourselves. So there was a military commander and also political commander and also propaganda commander, and organizational commander, and also security commander. These five people report every day to their own central system. So they watch each other. So if you want to move the unit, you have to get all the consensus, all the agreement from these five people.

So if I talk to a political commander, I want to make this guy, I want to make a movie unit, we want to do some activity, the other three or two will report separately and there will be pressure from the central government. It automatically, are you familiar with the term group think? All right, so group think is a group thinking yeah, it's roughly when an Idea is easier to be accepted considering that it's among a group of people pun intended to where it's more consensus

in the sense that people feel less of an ability to speak out with a dissenting opinion because the group agrees with this. Do we have the definition, Dave, so I can do this justice? Group think it's a psychological phenomenon where the desire for harmony and conformity, that's it, within a group overrides critical thinking

and the evaluation of alternative viewpoints. So the way you're describing this to me is that the government has the military set up in a way to where, I don't know, the lack of compartmentalization makes it almost impossible statistically for a cowboy to go off the range. Yep. Wow.

Yeah, it's, you know, I wish the world were as simple as waving a magic wand and helping people who are oppressed, you know, not be oppressed anymore. Yeah. But as you know, there's, the difficult thing is, there's all kinds of domino effects and Dances that happen here, you know, if you just for example, if you're the United States and one day you're like, you know What I'd like regime change in North Korea. Let's nuke North Korea

Unfortunately, it's not that simple. Not this simple millions of people are gonna die. Number one. Let's start there number two now you are are going to die, number one, let's start there. Number two, now you are doing a catastrophic war event on a country that's subsidized by China, who's the second biggest, you see what I'm saying? So like it's not, unfortunately, a lot of free countries around the world or freer countries around the world. It's not just as simple as them coming together saying, all right, let's get this done, fellas. Yeah, so internal riot or internal anti-rebellion activity is not allowed for any people in North Korea. So that's why I think the outside encouragement, like for example, recently, the United States bombed Iran's nuclear facility. And Israel also helped some, the strike against Iran, right?

And the US has a history, like the Trump's first term, President Trump did a strike against the custom solemnity Iran general, and also I kind of leader. So when I talk to people that yeah, why don't you do that? Like, but as you mentioned earlier, it's not that easy, right? But that type of offsides, you know, support is crucial too. So that people inside can have some belief or trust that, oh, we can get some help from the outside. Yeah.

Now internally, we don't have power. We don't know what to do. After even like they'd replace Kim Jong-un, they don't know what to do. It's tough though too, because these regimes are very, obviously very prideful and very paranoid, which is a bad combination in the sense that when there is something from the outside that's done, maybe in a military strike or something-wise, they feel compelled to have to respond, which then creates a potential tether-tether. I would say, for example, the one you brought up with what happened with Iran, we kind of... I'll give Trump this, he was hoping they they were gonna be bluffing, and they were,

but what if they weren't? And that is also not just including the Iranian regime, what if China and Russia hadn't been bluffing, right? Because what we've seen is China and Russia basically shown their hand, at least for now, where they're kinda like, all right, we don't really care about Iran that much, but what if they had, you know?

And you gotta worry about that, whether it be Iran, whether it be North Korea or some had? You know, and you got to worry about that, whether it be Iran, whether it be North Korea, or some of these other countries. And that's where I get really concerned. You hope that our leaders have good intel, because again, in a perfect world, you just say, let's free the North Korean people. I for one would love to get behind that. But you have to do it with ideological subversion. You know, with the Soviet Union, which obviously some things have gone wrong in the rebuilding of Russia since then, for sure. But, you know, my friend David Satter has been on the show

a couple times in episode 92 and 133. He was like the preeminent... psychologist of Vladimir Putin in the Western world, back from the beginning. And he was kicked out of Russia in 2013, the only Western reporter prior to this war who's ever kicked out of there. And he talks about all the time,

as a historian of the Soviet Union, and what happened there, he says it only took 15% of the Soviet population to overthrow the regime. And it was done slowly with small outside effects, rather than like a military strike or something that obvious. And I would hope that there would be some sort of ability to do that in North Korea. But in defense of the North Korean people and their lack of information, I would argue the dystopian reality that you guys have been put into is actually on a historical basis even far worse than what happened in the Soviet Union.

You know, there was more connection to the outside world in the Soviet Union. You're absolutely right. And I really like the idea, you know, you know, gradual, you know, information access for people so that people can realize the reality So as you mentioned earlier Soviet Union the people in Soviet Union, they have access to some information, right? Yes, but North Korea they really studied how Soviet Union was collapsed So that's why they prevent outside information and they put a lot of efforts to prevent outside the information and they put a lot of efforts to prevent information access. They study that. They study that. And then I still remember when I was a kid, like, you know, there was lots of books criticizing Soviet Union.

Oh, they abandoned socialism. They, you know, betrayed the socialism. You know, they pretty much criticized Yeltsin and then Soviet leaders at the time. So and one of the main reasons they emphasized was the people in Soviet Union were fascinated by the capitalism and then, you know, Western culture. That's the main, one of the main reasons. So that's why we shouldn't listen or hear any, you know,

foreign media or, you know, watch, read foreign publications. That's, you know, North foreign publications that's the no North Korean regimes broke in there right now What did you know? Obviously not when you're fine. You're not thinking about this being on when you're 17 18 21 22 23 What did you know about capitalism? Honestly, I don't know I Never thought like I mean I didn't want to differentiate capitalism and socialism.

While I was in China, I think China was a socialist country. But we know that China never runs the socialism... Socialistic economy system. So China runs more capitalist, you know, economic system, market economy system. So China runs more capitalist, you know, economic system, market economy system. So I think that would be the, you know, capitalism. But, you know, when we have videos in North Korea regarding United States, and, you know, I talked to one of the show that every Sunday we have a show called Rotten Capitalism and

they showed homeless people on the street. Rotten Capitalism? Yeah. That's what they called it? Yeah. The show, the title is Rotten Capitalism. So they showed homeless people on the street and then bribery, robbery, and then police chasing cars.

Online we do have some funny things, right? The activities like car crashing, and then using milk, having baths like that. So these are stuff for fun when people do. But the regime described that's the life in United States. It's not entirely not true, but still it's more the distort the meaning of the life, right? Yeah, they're picking and choosing the worst things you can find. Yeah. So, you know, so the final comment always was,

you know, if you live in the United States under capitalism, you'll be ended up like this. So the capitalism always support riches, not, you know, public, but in North Korea, the real rich person is Kim Jong-un, he owns the entire country. Yes. But still, you know, educate people that, you know, the capitalism and market economy is, you know,

kind of a bad thing for people. You know what I forgot to ask you earlier? You just made me think of it with explaining all that. When you were in even elementary school, which is, I guess, called something similar to elementary school. Yeah, elementary school. What are they teaching you? Are they teaching you the same math that they teach us

and reading books and stuff? What was that like? Yes, we do have such the subjects. And actually, North Korean regime puts more emphasis on natural science, like math and not physics in elementary school. From the middle school, We study chemistry physics and then

Geography like that. Oh geography. Yes. Yes, we do. I wouldn't have expected that Yeah, because I would have expected a map to just say North Korea and everybody else Yeah, we do the you know the, the same. So North Korea emphasized that the world is like running by a world is centered by North Korea. So for the North Korea is the center and then world is, you know, the circling or how do I say, like circling by the centered by North Korea and and and We also educate that many people from the international side respects our leader and They believe North Korea is the paradise

Paradise. Yes, because This country is for people So like that and but another thing we have intense education is Kim family history. So we have to study the founder of North Korea, Kim Il-sung, and then Kim Jong-il, the second leader. And now we have to study the third leader, Kim Jong-un. So the whole history. And then we called it

revolutionary history of Kim family. How much of that history would you say now is complete bullshit? Nobody would say the bullshit in North Korea but... Right, but now you're on the outside looking in. So like for Kim Il Sung, the guy who founded North Korea, he actually fought against the Japanese and then he lead the Korean War against the US and United Nations. So still like old generation respects him. They believe that he has some achievement. Okay. For the second game,

most like my dad's generation, and older generation, still, you know, he has done some economic development, but he's the main person who destroyed the whole country, and make the country as the you know religious cult Country he met his father as a God figure trying to become a second leader of North Korea and

the third one He has nothing no achievement. He never you know contributed in his efforts to the country right, he just suddenly appeared as a successor and then you know, He never contributed any of his efforts to the country. He just suddenly appeared as a successor. Then after a few years as a successor and after he took office, he started killing his uncle and hundreds of officials. He killed his half brother in 2017 in the Malaysian airport. Yeah, so For undercover North Korean girls those spies, right? No, they trained a Vietnamese girl and in Indonesia go

To and a convince them. Oh, we are going to have a tick-tock video or YouTube video Yeah, and then and they like put the chemical on chemical on and whoa. What is it? Let's dig into I mean, we've been talking about Kim Yong-un a little bit all day, but we haven't really dug into him. So as you mentioned, this is a guy who obviously was born into royalty, but it was the third wife, so he's away from the public. But he does get sent to Switzerland, to that fancy international school. I remember reading stories about this,

where, you know, he'd have all the security and the cars pulling up, but he got a pop culture, a Western pop culture experience there, and that's where he fell in love with basketball and video games and things like this. So he got as a kid in his developmental years, even though, you know, he's got a golden spoon in his mouth, he got to see what the free world is like. And then at some point after his education, he's brought back to North Korea. And how did it, let's start here, how did it translate into him ending up being the heir apparent, as opposed to other siblings from some of the other wives?

So after returning to North Korea, Kim Jong-un actually makes some good comments or asks him a request to his father. One of the things he asked was why we don't have supermarket in North Korea. Supermarket. Yeah. Like grocery stores. And then Kim Jong-il, Kim Jong-un's father was surprised because nobody asked about it. Nobody questions why North Korea doesn't have a supermarket. Kim Jong-un's father was surprised because nobody asked about it. Nobody questions why North Korea doesn't have a supermarket.

And then like, you know, the market, the kind of market, etch-marts or Walmart, like that giant grocery store. They don't have Costco cards in North Korea. We don't have. I love Costco. Right. It's a great place. Yeah.

I hope one day, you know, that's ideological subversion Send some Costco cards into North Korea They'll be hooked. Yeah, you know I'm saying yeah, I mean I really we should have bring Costco to North Korea. Yes Anyway, so Kim Jong-un Kim Jong-il was shocked Nobody questioned and his son asked him because Kim Jong-un went shocked. Nobody questioned. And his son asked him. Because Kim Jong-un went to Switzerland, he experienced a supermarket there. So Kim Jong-il ordered business officials

to make a supermarket. So they did. But as I said again, it's a supermarket, grocery store, is a daily supply, need a daily supply chain, and they cannot make such chain. They don't have products. Even like the vegetables, they cannot grow fancy vegetables there.

So they have to procure from China everything. But it's daily in a base of Supply chain is impossible and also You know North Korean people cannot afford that. Yeah. So basically now this market as like Showing the market like it they put all those there things there and then they just show that, we have a supermarket there. But anyway, so Kim Jong-un make a really good question to his father. And then, you know, I think in like making a ski resort or water park, and he has, I mean, I would say good intentions initially, probably,

but he doesn't understand the reality of North Korea. Because he's never been in this shoes, right? That's right. So and then even like he spent lots of money investing that you know stop and then later he Inter-argument with his uncle and later eventually that kind of argument lead to the uncle's execution. So this guy is... But he passes over some of the other brothers and stuff too. Yeah. Because I guess, because Kim Jong-il, what you're saying is Kim Jong-il was impressed

with his ideas? I don't know, but what I know was the first, Kim Jong-un's brother, the own like, you know, the Kim Jong-un is a second son, right? Except like half brother. So he has an own brother. The own brother who called Kim Jong-chol. This guy is more into music. He's a big fan of Eric Clifton, the guitarist. All right. I can get behind that. Yes. And to attend the concert. And then after the concert, he actually traveled in UK to purchase a guitar, the specific one. So, and then he's very professional level of guitarist.

But he has a mental issue. Yeah. Can't have that as a leader. Can. That's unstable. I mean, Kim Jong-un is unstable too, but this guy is more like, you know, unstable too. So it's, I don't know, the family has a history of... I'm holding in so many jokes right now. I'm pretty proud of myself.

We'll keep this going. Yeah. And yeah, I think that's why eventually Kim Jong was picked and now it's countries really, you know, fucked up. Right. But he comes but as a young man, like when his father dies, he is the dude that to the international world comes out of nowhere. People are like, who is this guy? And then we're learning about him.

And I always, you know, I never empathize with evil and someone who is doing things that are evil. That's their free will that they're doing, and it's wrong under every circumstances. What I do try to do is empathize with where it comes from. Because if you can learn where it comes from, maybe you can help reduce the possibility

that that type of evil happens in the future, right? And so with Kim Yong-un, I've... He can't control where he was born. I feel bad for him in the sense that he probably experienced, you know, intense loneliness and antisocial aspect to himself growing up and, you know, is self-conscious of a lot of things. That said, he did turn into this evil, tyrannical nutjob. So, when you talk about a guy, though, who understands the West and actually appreciates parts of that pop culture and the freedoms that allow that to happen, in a sense, by extension, when you talk about him coming home

and his first idea is actually something positive, let's open up grocery stores for our people, like, you look at that and if you were watching back then, you'd be like, ooh, I hope this guy gets... Maybe he can get in charge. But then he gets in charge, and he becomes what we know he is. It's almost like a snap of a finger, maybe. He became that. What...

Do we know anything about what that... villain creation moment was, or what made him suddenly be like, you know what, fuck everyone else. I'm Kim Yong-un. I'm going to do what I want. And if you die, that's your problem. Really, really fascinating question. And then also a lot of people asked about it. There is another example that Kim Jong-un actually ordered after took his office So he gave order to scholars and economists to study the best economic system in the world

So one of my friend also part of the group he went to germany in singapore to study economic system but there was one,, one requirement for this economic system. It must be under leaders rule. Under leaders rule. Yeah. The economy system. Yeah. Which means basically now same in North Korea. Yes. Leader is absolute decision maker and then rule everything. So, you know, like my friend, he lived in Germany for 10 years. And like other people, they also lived in other countries as a North Korean official. They understand the system.

They understand market system is the best system for people's well-being so far. And then I mean, I'm not saying that there was flaws, but still, it gives more benefit to the other system than other system. So They come up the idea that They studied They studied Chinese, you know reform and openness Vietnamese reform and openness Singapore model and. But they come to conclusion that our socialistic

planned economy system is the best system in the world. I wonder why they came to that. Because they don't want to be killed. You know, if they said the market economy is the best and then they are into like a risky position. They will be investigated Of course. They will be punished. So, you know, that's the kind of example and then another moment is Kim Jong-un Had ideas he mentioned public to other you know Offices that I won't do the same like his father. He will run differently. But he realized immediately,

this country and this regime had a lot of bad things for seven decades, like six decades. Like North Korea. No, his family, like, you know, the grandfather, his father, and they killed lots of people and they lied, basically. North Korea is the best country in paradise. And he knew that. Now, he realized, after took his office, before that he didn't know, because he was not in the,

you know- Intersect them. Yeah, so he was just a kid playing basketball and games, and, you know, studying overseas, returning and then took power, and then he realized that, returning and then took power. And then he realized that the country, his grandparents and then father lied to people. And then the country, whole system is based on lie.

So he realized that? He realized that. He realized that. So that's why he stopped making a the openness and reform economy And he blocks the whole information into North Korea Okay So if I'm understanding you correctly what you're saying is he had all these ideas Maybe he was in some ways even like trying to be a utopatarian made-up term, but you know what I mean

and once that, he then understood reality and then translated that to realize that if the truth on that came out, which would include even him volunteering that truth to the people, it would mean that he and his family would lose power and maybe he'd be killed as a result. He then decided, okay, I'm going to protect me and my family before everyone else. Therefore, we're going to put the cover on this and I'm going to rule with an iron fist.

One and two percent correct. That's exactly the answer. Jesus Christ. Yeah. So now Kim Jong-un is on the spotlight like you know if he pursue openness and he will lose the power and if he like, you know isolate people more and He has a chance to keep the power. So now he's pursuing more isolation than openness Now he runs as his father did before him a state-run media system state-run messaging. You've already laid out beautifully how Sinister the shutting down the internet is and all that. Does the average North Korean, not even the average North Korean, is there a subset of

the North Korean population who even if they don't talk about it at dinner parties, is there a subset of the North Korean population that knows not only that he's a despot, but that he has committed atrocious human rights violations? That's another term that we often not using in our lives, like human rights. So the North Korean regime announced a long time ago, in North Korea, there is no human rights violations. We already achieved human rights to every person. So any person who discuss human rights is anti-regime activist.

So yeah, we won't say human rights. And then human rights only applied to United States and South Korea. How does he compare from a, I mean, because we have the term, so we'll use it obviously in this conversation, but how does he compare to his father on human rights violations and to be specific, imprisoning people, executing people, enslaving people, is he worse than his dad or...? I would say worse than his dad. Um, his father also killed lots of people.

But Kim Jong-il is more experienced guy. He never, you know, uh... lead execution. Like, he utilize, like, you know, the security commander or the police commander to execute those executions. And then he was in the behind the scenes that all give order. Kim Jong-un is different.

He lead the whole executions. He asked them, you know, arrest them, come to the table and then, you know, bring them to come to the table, and then, you know, bring them to his office, and then bring them to the stage, and then order them to execute. So many people now realize this execution is controlled, ordered by Kim Jong-un, not like, you know, the other guy. But in most dictatorship countries, those people who executed the purges, after that they will be disappeared, right?

They will, after usage, they will be killed or something like that. In North Korea, the same, same system. But now people realize Kim Jong-un is the one who gave order. So there are people who are realizing that in the country. But they can't talk about it. No, no.

Did you, before you defected, is that something you realized? So I was- Did you ever talk about it with anyone? I have discussed with some people because I was in China, right? I was not if I were in North Korea, I never I will never talk about it, because it's all taped in the you know, anybody can report my conversation. But I was in China. So and I casually talked with Chinese people or even

like some North Korean, you know, officials in China, which are close people. So we talked about it. Why kill him? It's uncle. It's on family. Like even Chinese officials criticize a lot, you know, but you knew he did that. You that was public knowledge in North Korea that he had his uncle executed. Yeah, that's a public execution. OK. Yeah. And then even my, before uncle's execution, they publicly executed two top officials. And then one of them was my father's friend. And then I also had a business relationship with his son-in-law.

But the son-in-law is also dead. So I was like, why? I mean, they don't I mean There is no need to execute the whole family, right? Oh, it's horrible. Yeah So that's um, you know kind of conversation we had and even like tongues execution uncle This is family member. So Chinese people never see Kim Jong-un as a human being because Killing family member is different story. Because I'm going to ask you here about how Kim Jong-un takes advantage of his population and

some of the slavery and the starvation and stuff. But on your personal experience first, when you were growing up, obviously, there were a lot of resource problems still, even in your situation, but like you said, you were at least not the lowest class or living out in the rural area with nothing and starving. Do you remember, like did you ever have access to seeing the people though who were starving and who were not in a good situation as a kid?

I was living in Pyongyang city after I moved to Pyongyang when I was four from Wonsan, right? And from that moment, I've never been out of Pyongyang city. I was a student, high school and then right after my high school, I just, you know, went to military service. So during my teenager, lots of starvation happened late 1990s. So we assume like almost 3 million people died of starvation, right? 3 million people. 3 million people. 3 million people. But the surprising thing is, those informations never came into Pyongyang city.

We only hear the rumors, like the other city, lots of people died of starvation. And sometimes... But you don't see it. I mean, we don't have the media. Right. Yeah. They never showed. And if you don't go out, which is most impossible,

as I mentioned earlier, if you want to travel other province, other city, you need to get the permission to travel. And North Korean regime won issue a travel permit for the students and other people, unless you are government official. The government officials, like security officials and police, they have permission, but other people cannot travel.

They just can't? They cannot. And then my father actually visited a lot because he runs a big corporation in North Korea. And then every town you know, town, he has a subsidiary, it's like a branch is there. So he oversaw things, and then he actually saw many, you know, people dying on the street.

But after returning to home, he never shared the story. So he never told you that? Because in my home, there was a wiped-tapping. And then there was a what? Wiped-tapping. There was bugs? Wire-tapping, yeah, bugs. In your house?

Yes. So I mean. Did you know where they were? No, but like high-ranking officials, all house residing, residents, it is wiped out. So in your home, you don't say any political agenda or the things can be interpreted as, you know, bad thing against North Korean regime. So my dad never shared a story. Like, you know, he saw, like, people are dying in the street. And then later in China, he shared, like, you know,

literally people are crying at the time, like late 90s. And then, you know, the factory, the manager, you know, the general manager told my dad, you know, we need to catch the fish. There's no people come to the facility. And then they don't have food on the table. So the general manager just asked my dad, you know, just to give us rice and then we'll catch the fish.

So my dad, you know, the... He purchased the rice from China and then, you know, provide the whole thing. And then he was trying to keep the, you know, he cannot save whole, like, you know, the the people right? So he was trying to focusing on the the branch people the family's members. So I Mean he's not proud of that, but he still believed that his actions saved several people some people and first I mean, it's impossible to even Try to put yourself in those shoes and and there's so many armchair experts, oh,

if I were in this situation, I would totally do it. You don't fucking know. And you have in your house bugged. I mean, so do you remember? Because you said your dad internalized this. No, so like, so that's why we never hear. We never understand the horrible situation in the the north while we were in pyeongyang Quick quick quick question young when your dad would come home from work

Not necessarily from even a day when you saw people starving, but you know, he knows things Did your mom ever say like oh how was work? Yes, we do ask work but it's not like more like a casual conversation. Exactly. Yeah, but never serious conversation. So it feel in a way, the reason I asked that is because to me, it would almost feel like a dystopian conversation from a movie. Like when you watch the people with the fake face on, how was work, honey?

Oh, work was great. What'd you do? I went to work and got work done. There's no you know what I mean? There's no I understand. There's no substance there, because he has to be like them and the microphones are listening. So we are going to say work was great. That's pretty much every conversation then. Yeah. Oh my God. So one time there was a military company leader, I was a president of military company, came to my home, all of a sudden, my dad was not there. He brought like a snacks, the box of snack.

And I received it because my dad was not home and my mom was there. And he sat down for a while and then, oh, you know, let father know that I visited. And then he had he wants something from my dad. He like my dad was kind of, you know, top official and then he has authority to give some, you know, permission. So the military side wanted to some permission from my dad. permission so the military side wanted to some permission from my dad and like so he told openly during you know my home visit and then now he brought something like snacks like that later up to he went back and I opened the box

there was a $3,000 the bribery Dollars yes, yes dollar bills and Did you know what it was? Yeah, I know yeah later we will explore more but the Largest amount of currency used in North Korea is dollar bill. Don't be surprised Anyway, so not surprised. So yeah, so I'm surprised that it's even used at all, but I'm not surprised that that's the amount. No, no, no, no. Most North Korean people use dollar bill than the currency.

They let that, the government lets, that's the one thing I would expect they wouldn't let happen. Some foreign currency in there? That's the hypocrisy. They hate the United States, the United States, the anti-initem. I mean, we love dollar bills. So that's the hypocrisy. Like sometimes they say, oh, you look on green. You look good on green. Anyway, so he's $3,000 through and then my dad immediately took those dollar and then the snacks to the

the political, you know, party like a company political leader. So he donated basically. Okay. But the reason he did was wiretaked and monitored. So they understand who visited my home and what he brought with the box. And if something happened, they will ask you, investigate you, interrogate you, what was in there. So my dad tried to avoid all like stuff. So he gave it away. He gave it away, donated. Didn't say where it came from. They just said thank you for...

No, no, no. He showed that, you know, the military guys, you military guys gave it to me, but they want permission. But eventually my dad allowed them to do the mushroom business because Kim Jong-il just announced at the time a military first policy. Military first? Yes yes what does that mean like in country in the past to be were run by ideology called to ideology now it's a military first ideology what made him want to make that change because you realize that he cannot satisfy the old people and then if unless he kept the military he can sustain his life

Ah, like a protection Yeah, so he transferred whole ideology to Sung-Gon, yes, the military first policy Yeah, Joe's got it up here. So Sung-Gon is a military first policy North Korea prioritizing the Korean People's Army and the affairs of state and allocation of resources Military first is a principle guides political and economic life in North Korea with Military First politics dominating the political system, a line of Military First economic construction acting as the economic system and Military First ideology serving as the guiding ideology. Sungun elevates the Korean People's Army within North Korea as an organization and as a state

function granting it the primary commission in North Korean government and society. Guy's domestic policy and international interactions is the framework for the government designating the military as the supreme repository of power. The government grants the Korean people's army the highest economic and resource allocation priority and positions it as the model for society to emulate. it's all under the supreme leaders command. Yes. Correct. That's why my father eventually gave up some power because the military was the really really they are becoming powerful house. So they are aligned with the leaders policy. But many people from the middle class and then labor parts, they disagree with the policy from the beginning. Because when we educate, even like the communism ideology, military is the tool to protect people. It cannot be a, the motivation or the ideology.

not be a the motive, motivation or the ideology. But suddenly it's becoming ideology and then, you know, engine for the society. So some people like it cannot understand why. And then later, you know, we understood that the Kim family wanted to keep the power forever. Absolutely. So, yeah, they realized the military is the core parts. When obviously the house is bugged so your dad can't share some of the things he's seeing on the road with the starvation and people dying in the streets so you don't have access to that horror. When did he first share that with you and how did he do it?

So he became a CEO of that company in 1997. So I think from that moment he was, he realized that our house is bugged. And then the story he shared was while we were in China, like, you know, 2013, 2012, 2013, like that. And then, it's a casual conversation between Chinese people, and then they... Chinese people knew that there was lots of, you know, starvation during 1990s. So, I was in the conversation, and my dad showed that at that time,

I had so many, you know, starvation, and then, but that was really new to me. I never heard from his mouth that he saw the people on the street dying. Yeah. That obviously had, I mean, as a human being, I had to have a profound effect on him. But he had no choice, right?

He can not share the story and if he rebels, and then he, it means that risking my life and my mom's life, my sister, whole family's life. So it's more like instinct that protects own family. And then even though he knew there's nothing he can do, like changing whole like mechanism. So the best thing he can do was just providing some rights to, you know, to its own branch, you know, labor workers. So, yeah. It's heavy, man.

Yeah. Now we're, we're going to get to you guys, ending up defecting and all that, but you and I have been talking about this throughout the day, how there, there's a couple key things, well, really a few key things. One of them we already cover, which is that you did foreign language training in Pyongyang in the school there. So you get some access to like, I guess, other cultures in a very small way, albeit. But the other two things are, prior to you defecting, is that you'd spend a lot of time in China, which I want to dig into more Mm-hmm. I'm gonna touch that for a minute and

You spent time in the military. Yep All right, guys that takes us to the end of part one of my two-part sit-down with Hyun You are gonna be getting a full second episode with him sometime in the next two to three weeks So, please make sure you subscribe to the channel and hit that like button on the video and we'll see you for the next one It got absolutely crazy