Julian Dorey Podcast - #319 - Shadowy Epstein Connection LYING, Jordan Peterson & Princess Diana | Alessi Allaman

Episode Date: July 13, 2025

PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/JulianDorey (***TIMESTAMPS in Description Below) ~ Alessi Allaman ( @alessiallaman  ) is a documentary filmmaker and host who tells raw, investigative stories that spotlight hidden truths and unheard voices. ALESSI's LINKS: YT: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyLKzv5fKxGmVQg3cMJJzyQQ EPSTEIN DOC: https://youtu.be/38iIFM4ME88?si=6R-bY3MRppSpibA5 IG: https://www.instagram.com/alessi.allaman/ FOLLOW JULIAN DOREY INSTAGRAM (Podcast): https://www.instagram.com/juliandoreypodcast/ INSTAGRAM (Personal): https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey/ X: https://twitter.com/julianddorey JULIAN YT CHANNELS - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Clips YT: https://www.youtube.com/@juliandoreyclips - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Daily YT: https://www.youtube.com/@JulianDoreyDaily - SUBSCRIBE to Best of JDP: https://www.youtube.com/@bestofJDP ****TIMESTAMPS**** 00:00 – Alessi Investigates Epstein, Mark Epstein’s Claims, Hoffenberg Ponzi Scheme, Unalive Doubts, Bongino + Kash Patel Flip 13:45 – FBI’s Double Standard on Epstein, Spy Work vs Hollywood, Ghislaine’s Role, What Mark Epstein Really Knows 22:35 – Chris Watts Family Murder, Justice vs Forgiveness, Epstein’s Case 32:07 – Epstein’s Love for Stardom, Hiding in Plain Sight 43:13 – Intel Agencies Control Chaos, Kiriakou Analogy, Paris Climate Irony 50:12 – Human Trafficking Gets Politicized, Right-Wing Damage 01:03:50 – Diana Documentary Breakdown, Mossad & MI6 Links 01:18:55 – Why Diana Had Enemies, Queen Elizabeth Speculation 01:26:47 – Jordan Peterson Takedown, Christian Gatekeeping 01:39:42 - Christian Persecution in Nigeria, Global Silence in 202501:49:42 – Alessi Becomes JDP COO, Florida Move, Lex Fridman Story 02:10:50 – New Producer Deef Introduced, Gratitude to Alessi & Emily CREDITS: - Host, Editor & Producer: Julian Dorey - COO, Producer & Editor: Alessi Allaman - https://www.youtube.com/@UCyLKzv5fKxGmVQg3cMJJzyQ - In-Studio Producer: Joey Deef - https://www.instagram.com/joeydeef/ Julian Dorey Podcast Episode 319 - Alessi Allaman Music by Artlist.io Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You know, the other thing that was just so bizarre looking into this whole Jeffrey Epstein, New York businessman The monster s*** we assaulted And what's interesting is Epstein's brother has these intersplice stories talking to Epstein One of them is during the 2016 election cycle with Trump and Hillary They're watching the TV, the debates are going on And he's like, man, if they knew what I knew about these two, these elections would be canceled This time he has the island, he knows he's going with the movers and shakers of the world

That's another thing about Mark, which was so suspicious from his conversations. In 2000, that's when his brother was like, Hey, I just bought an island. So he said he went to the island, it was beautiful, sunshine, jet skis, all these things. And then after that, that was the last time he went. But he's super tied to his brother and he doesn't think his brother would blackmail him. And now the FBI director and his assistant are saying he killed himself. He came forward and was like, they're lying. That's not true.

He didn't do that. There are so many red flags every step of the way. He wants to remain anonymous, but for whatever reason he has these cool takes on certain things and it's one that's worth the conversation. So hey guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five-star review. They're both a huge huge help.

Thank you. What's this Epstein investigation you just did? You know, we got to start there. I need to hear all about it. Hear all about it. So the Epstein investigation, I decided to take the angle that I think a lot of people- Pull that mic in close like you've done this before. Yeah, right here.

We'll do it a little bit closer. The one angle that I've been interested in is Epstein's brother. Because- His brother. His last living relative. So both his parents are dead, you know. His mom died back in 93 or 92, or his father died back in 92, 93,

and then the mother was like in 05 or 04, something like that. And I was like, well, this guy was literally directly related to this dude, and if you're a sibling, obviously, there's probably some sort of conversation, if anything, like, you know, they know what's going on with each other checking in.

And as far as I know, he'd only been on a few podcasts and TV interviews. You know, he did Law and Crime, he did PBD, he also did Piers Morgan, of course. And- We did Piers Morgan too? Yeah, he did a phone call, he phoned in. He doesn't wanna show his face, that's the big thing.

So no one knows what he looks like. There's a few photos on the internet, I found one, Um, that has his face glasses, you know, he looks Early similar obviously like a brother. Let's pull him up. Just a little looks like gander. Yeah, he probably is gonna love this Yeah, I'm sure and there he is. Good looking there's Mark. So what's he hiding? Exactly. He was very successful in his self as says there, property developer. So he made his own money. And one of his biggest claims that I thought was very fascinating is that he lost touch with his brother the last 10 years, roughly. They stopped talking. And that his brother informed him back in 04 that he was doing things with, you know, younglings. And...

Oh, wait, he told him that he was doing that. He told him that. And he said it in a way where he was like... He told his... His brother told him this. He called... He actually, the story goes, he was in northern New York, and then he was down south of Manhattan in the apartment. You've taken me too. And was like, hey, Mark, I need you to come down. I have something to tell you.

And he was like, all right, whatever, New York, I'll take the subway now, blah, blah, blah. Gets there, start having the conversation. He's like, so there's going to be some charges out of Florida, and you're going to find out pretty soon that I've been doing some things I should not be doing. And Mark apparently said in his own words, I'm so glad our mother's dead and doesn't know about this. And because of that, what ended up he is he was aware of this. And then obviously,

the charges came forward and then in 06 and then mysteriously, Acosta had that famous thing where he was like, you know, this is above me. So they dropped him and he had the sweetheart deal and ended up going on for whatever reason. And the crazy how they just, you know, very bizarre, very bizarre. But then what ends up happening is he has these intersplice stories talking to Epstein talking to his brother. And one of them is he said during the 2016 election cycle with Trump and

Hillary, that in just like they're watching the TV, the elect the whatever the debates are going on. So wait a second, they're watching the tea, even though the last 10 years of his life, he's allegedly not talking to his brother, he now says, oh, we're watching TV together. What, isn't that sketchy as far? It's sketchy. So that's one big piece where they're watching the TV

and he's like, man, if they knew what I knew about these two, these elections would be canceled. And he said it came as a joke to him, but then when we looked over at Jeffrey, he was like dead serious. Yeah. And because of that, he was like, that's kind of weird. And at this time he has the island, he knows he's going with the movers and shakers of

the world, the Bill Gates, the celebrities, all those big people, and he's having all these functions. Discover the magic of Bad MGM Casino, where the excitement is always on deck. Pull up a seat and check out a wide variety of table games with a live dealer. From roulette to blackjack, watch as a dealer hosts your table game and live chat with them throughout your experience to feel like you're actually at the casino. The excitement doesn't stop there, with over 3,000 games to choose from, including fan favorites like Cash Eruption, UFC Gold Blitz, and more. Make deposits instantly to jump in on the fun, and make same-day withdrawals if you win.

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to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Discover the magic of BetMGM Casino, where the excitement is always on deck! Pull up a seat and check out a wide variety of table games with a live dealer. From roulette to blackjack, watch as a dealer hosts your table game and live chat with them throughout your experience to feel like you're actually at the casino. The excitement doesn't stop there. With over 3,000 games to choose from, including fan favorites like Cash Eruption, UFC Gold Blitz, and more, make deposits instantly to jump

in on the fun and make same-day withdrawals if you win. Download the BetMGM Ontario app today. You don't want to miss out. Visit betmgm.com for terms and conditions. 19 plus to wager Ontario only. Please gamble responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor for your charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Does he know what's happening on the island? No.

He knows that he's messing with little kids. But how is he doing it? He claims he doesn't know. And this is where this is the hardest thing for me to get across, where I feel like Mark knows a little bit more than he's leading on. What's up, guys? Alessi and I recorded this episode shortly before the DOJ released their

inexplicably bad statement, obviously cover up statement about Jeffrey Epstein not being involved in blackmail and all that and there not being Epstein files. So we did not discuss our reaction to that in this particular video. Nonetheless, Alessi's investigation in his documentary and going through the whole thing with us here into Jeffrey Epstein's brother is awesome stuff. And I hope you enjoy the rest of it. We will be discussing obviously reactions to that Epstein cover up in episodes with guests moving forward. So you'll be

getting content on that there. But just want to make sure we cleared that up. So you guys understood why we were not addressing that right here is that he doesn't think his brother would blackmail anyone He makes folks not Catholic either Yeah He makes the claim that no his brother was the guy who would go after the guys the hot shots the hedge funds over In New York, he goes after those guys. He doesn't go after these celebrities. No, no, no, we're these people of power Yeah, that's his whole claim. He doesn't go after these celebrities. No, no, no, or these people of power. That's his whole claim.

He only just took pictures with him his whole fucking life. Exactly, and he does all that. And then on top of that, he even goes as far as saying that he made his money, which we've pulled on this thread, and you can probably talk about this more because you know more about it, that he made his money through his investments at Berenstern.

He made it fair, he made a good deal with Riddell, the football helmets, and he said, he put a lot of money in, he got it back out and then made hundreds of millions of dollars. You know that guy, I think his name, can we pull it up Joe, the Ponzi scheme, New York Post owner? I think it not Bernie Madoff, not no, no, no, no, no. It was an original Ponzi scheme in the 80s, not Hank Greenspan or Greenberg. That's Epstein Ponzi scheme partner. Let's do that.

I forget the guy's name. I want to get this right. Steven Hofzberg, right? Yeah. So he's partnered with Steven Hofzberg at, I think it was Bear Stearns. Yeah. And so, is it Hofzberg? Hofenberg.

Hofenberg, that's right. So he's partnered with Steve and Hofenberg ends, he buys like the New York Post and coincidentally, like a day later, they come to him and they arrest him and he gets thrown in prison for 18 years for a Ponzi scheme that he operated allegedly at Bear Stearns or something that had to do with it. And so, Jeffrey was his partner. And he said, it was at Towers Financial, that's it.

Yeah, so he was like, how the fuck do they take me down? And not him, he did everything with me, but he just got away, got free, and this guy to his credit, I wanna say he was even talking years before the Epstein stuff came out, like when he got arrested in 2019. I'm pretty sure this guy was already talking

and trying to tell anyone who would listen because he was out of prison at this point. They're like, this guy was my partner and never went down. Like, is anyone gonna look at this? Yeah, there it is. And no one did. That's so bizarre. Yeah, let me read this so I get it right.

So in 1987, he met Jeffrey Epstein through a Britain. Oh my God. Oh, this gets worse. This is even worse than I realized. In 1987, he met Jeffrey Epstein through a British defense contractor named Douglas Lease, who Hoffenberg claims was an arms dealer. Lease was with, wherenan Khashoggi and Prince Bandar bin Sultan Al Saud, architect and the billion dollar Al Yamama arms.

What a name, Al Yamama arms deal. Britain's biggest arms deal ever concluded entering the prime contractor Bay Systems at 43 billion in euros in revenue between or pounds between 85 and 2007. Lee's told Hoffenberg about Epstein. The guy's a genius. He's great at selling securities and he has no moral compass. Oh my gosh. Hoffenberg hired Epstein.

He's like qualified. Yeah. But, Hoffenberg hired Epstein about 1987 and 1993 to help with the Towers Financial Corporation, paid him 25k a month and gave him a $2 million loan in 1988 that Epstein would never have to pay back. How's that a loan? Hoffenberg set Epstein up in offices in the villard houses. They unsuccessfully tried to take over Pan Am in a corporate raid with Towers Financial as their raiding vessel.

Their bid failed in part because of the 1988 terrorist bombing of Pan Am flight 103 over Lockerbie, which ultimately contributed to the airline's bankruptcy. A similar unsuccessful bid in 1988 was made to take over Emory Air Freight Court. During this period, Hoffenberg and Epstein worked closely together and traveled everywhere on Hoffenberg's private jet. Hoffenberg began using Tower's financial funds to pay off earlier investors and pay for a lavish lifestyle that included a Locust Valley, New York, Long Island mansion, as well as homes in Sutton Place in Manhattan and in Florida, and a number of cars and planes.

In court document, Hoffenberg claimed that Epstein was intimately involved in the Ponzi scheme. Epstein left Towers Financial before it collapsed, must have gotten the call that it's coming down, and was never charged for being involved with the massive investor fraud committed. In 2016, Hoffenberg and some of his victims sued Epstein seeking this is before seeking restitution. He asserted in court that Epstein had been intimately involved in Towers Financial practices and called Epstein the architect of the scam. In July 2019, following Epstein's arrest on charges of minors and conspiracy to commit, Hofenberg again claimed that Epstein was his uncharged co-conspirator in the Ponzi scheme. Former Tower investors made similar allegations in a lawsuit filed in August 2018. The lawsuit also alleged that

the millions in stolen investments were the seed capital for Epstein's hedge fund, which it valued at $50 billion. There's another documentary for you. I know there's another one right there. There's just all these players that come up like Adnan Khashoggi, the way he shows up in many things, as you mentioned with Putin, all those. Yeah, that's a whole nother thing. Yeah. Um, but you know, the other thing that was just so bizarre looking into this whole the Mark Epstein thing is he doesn't believe in the blackmail, like the whole Lex Wexner, where he said he

gave $253 million. What was it, property assessment, some bizarre thing. I think it was him or some other billionaire. I can't remember the name. So the guy who founded Apollo Global, Leon Black. Leon Black, that's it. Gave him $257 million and paid him $257 million over the last decade of his life for tax advisory or something.

Something so bizarre as that so with Mark you know you start seeing these things where you know he's the one that hired Michael Bodden to do the forensics on his brother and he's very clear that you know he does not believe his brother committed suicide he's very clear on that but he also doesn't believe he ever did blackmail very bizarre yeah exactly exactly with the whole recent thing with a cash Patel and Pam Bondi and all that doesn't believe you ever did blackmail. Very bizarre. Right? Exactly. Exactly.

With the whole recent thing with Cash Patel and Pam Bondi and all that stuff, he's come forward and being like, they're lying. Especially with Cash, we've talked about this where he came forward and was saying like, you know, he did do it. He he doesn't speak a lot. But when he came forward and was like, they're lying. That's not true. He didn't do that.

So it's just so bizarre because it's like he wants to remain anonymous, he's super tied to his brother obviously because he's in relation, you know, he's a sibling last living relative But for whatever reason he has these cold takes on certain things were as the public if you look at just The evidence and just everything that's happened. It's hard to believe you're like, what do you know? That's the question I asked and that's the kind of the question I investigated in my video being what do you really know dude? Like what are you? like, what do you know? That's the question I ask. And that's the kind of the question I investigated in my video being, what do you really know, dude? Like, what did he tell you? What did he inform you on?

You know, I think a big leap you could take is being like, is this the dead man switch? Did he give him information on what exactly he was doing, operating XYZ? I don't know. You know, I just opened that question up for people to ask. But for the most part, it's just, he's an in an instrument player that I don't feel like enough people investigate that angle. Everyone always takes the angle of Israel and all that stuff and understandably so but I feel like it's one that's worth the conversation

Yeah, and and the documentary for people haven't seen it was excellent We'll link it in the description down below on a lessie's channel, which is awesome Which we're gonna talk about your channel today and some stuff going on there as we move along. But you've been looking at some really interesting stories. And this is one of them just because this case never gets old because there's constantly a new layer to it and there's constantly more shit that we're not finding out. To your point, before we move on to the rest of the Epstein case though, the whole cash thing, Cash Patel coming out and saying,

oh no, I've seen the finals, he committed suicide. And like changing his tune there, this is the same guy who said he was gonna turn the J. Edgar Hoover building into a fucking museum day one, which listen, whenever you hear someone say something like that, that's a red flag. Because first of all, that's never going to happen. Secondly, you know, this is a not ripped smaller man trying to sound like a big guy and he

talks like this. Yeah, like it's just like it's, it's little dick energy to me. I hate to hit them like that, but that's just how it comes across because not saying there's not some decent things happening at FBI from him. I don't want to like rip the guy to shreds, but some of these quote unquote like promises, it seems like they've gone back on, on day one. And part of the, you know, I guess canary in the coal mine for me here,

and the reason I bring it up is the fucking Bongino guy. So this guy was like the loudest dude on the internet for years just looking at the camera like this, saying it's all in deep state, they're all gonna fuck us up, you know, over and over and over again, and said a lot of shit, including stuff that was from his own experience,

working in government. I guess, you know, that's interesting that he did that, and good on you in some ways, I guess. But now he goes in there, and when you watch his body language, talking about Epstein and saying, look, I've seen the files, he killed himself. It's weak, this is not a weak man at all.

There's nothing weak about Dan Bongino. You can disagree with him politically. Dude's a tough guy, right? Bulging veins. Right, 100%. And he's a loud voice, he's not afraid to put his opinions out there. I'll never take that from him.

And like, he's saying it as if he's like, guys, please just accept this. If you knew what I knew, you would know why I'm saying this. And it's like, what did they show them? What did they show them back there that now suddenly the same guy you've been putting memes up over the last six years saying he didn't kill himself? Oh, no, he definitely did. Like, come on. I think it's great if people would look the side by sides when they do like the ICE raids and when the FBI is coming in, it's a big win for them. And they're being like, we got these, you know,

terrible traffickers and illegals, all this stuff. The energy of that Patel and Bon Jo- I can't pronounce it. Bongino. Bongino is so different from when they talk about Epstein. It's like two different type of people. Because when they're doing that, I'm like, that's the guy I saw in Sean Ryan,

who I saw on the campaign trail, that I saw talking about all doing these things that sounded great. But when they talk about Epstein, like you said, you look at the body language, there are different people. It just is so clear to me where I'm like, something's happened there. And it gets more and more to this optimistic thinking

where, or not optimistic, or pessimistic, where I don't think we'll ever get to know really the truth. Unfortunately, I think you're right. But the Mark thing, first of all, when you hear these guys talk, when you hear the old tapes of Epstein, and then now you hear his brother who has the same voice and the same Brooklyn accent,

he's talking about like the most serious things. Clearly he's, you know, got a brain, like he's made a lot of money for himself and whatever. But he's like, oh no, I just didn't think that was any blackmail. Like he sounds like the village idiot when he's talking. But we're talking about the darkest shit ever. That's like layers and layers deep, money flows,

cash flows every, you know what I mean? And it sometimes feels like a simulation watching this, because you can't even believe the characters were at the middle of this. And it's hard. It's hard to hear tapes of Epstein talking. And, you know, not be like, how did... Like, I know how it is when these smart people

kind of look at the people from our area of the world when we open our mouth even if we're smart or dumb and they're like yeah this guy right because there's like a little bit of that thing that we're not a nerd or whatever we talk we let the vowels hang out and like I really do wonder because he really let the vowels hang out on the fucking laundry line yeah I really do wonder how like Bill Gates sat in a room with this guy before he was ever blackmailed allegedly You know and was like yeah, this guy seems like a real straight I could see Bill Gates being like this guy's a fucking moron like we don't associate with your types

like you know these elitist type opinions that people like that will have and Obviously Epstein was not a moron, but like it's just strange that you're talking about a kid from Coney Island, New York This wasn't like some suave James Bond whatever which I guess is also a great case for why? Spying is not what it looks like in the movies, which we already know that yeah, but this is just such the polar opposite Yeah, it's like it's almost like it's so obvious that it's not that's the only explanation I have Yeah, and you look at it if you look at from all the conversations we had in this podcast with CIA people, what do they do? They encourage relationships with other people in CIA, right? So you think about the role of Ghislaine

and you think of Epstein, that encouragement that happened there, where it's like, he's not the most suave guy, but look at Ghislaine. She was suave. She was suave. She'd bring people together. Like you look at the videos,

you could tell she was that one girl at the party trying to get people to talk to me like, oh, meet this person. Look at this person, let's get together. Oh, let's get some more drinks. Oh, let's plan next week. We can go to the Virgin Islands. We got an island, XYZ.

Or it's like, he didn't have to have those attributes. It's pretty clear, but what he provided, she could make up for what he didn't have. That's actually, yeah, I never thought of it that way, but that's actually a great point. And that's another thing about Mark, which was so suspicious from his conversations, where he said in 2000, that's when his brother was like,

hey, I just bought an island, Little St. James. And he's on a sailing trip, that's what he says. And he's like, you should go check it out. So he said he went to the island, it was beautiful, he got to explore it all. And then after that, that was the last time he went. I was just like, she's never went again. I was like, my brother owns an island.

I'm like, your brother owns an island, he's flying private jets with Bill Clinton, Bill Gates, but for some reason you're not interested. And then, yeah, that's the response, that's what I thought. You know, why would I wanna go to a private island in the tropics, you know, where it's beautiful, sunshine, jet skis, all these things, bad idea, not fun. I remember when Patrick Bette David did that sit down with him where he it just shows Patrick bet David the whole time because he's

sitting across and you just see PBT the whole time like Like just staring at him like it is this guy serious yeah, he Obviously whatever's happening there, he has so much pressure to not say things that it feels way more easier for him to swallow to therefore then say things that are so shamelessly bullshit. But he still puts himself through it.

So I bring that up because I'm like, is someone making him do that? Is someone saying you have to go and talk to people? You can't just fucking run away. You need to go talk to Patrick, that David and Piers Morgan and these people, because there's no way that he can't realize after the, I guess you said he did peers before that. You did peers before. There's no way he couldn't listen to himself back on that

and not realize he sounded like a complete idiot answering these questions, you would think. Or circle of people around him. Like you said, who's telling him to do these things? Like if anything, if he stayed silent, there would be the enigma and mystery being like, what does his brother know? But the fact that he's gone out there

and had these conversations and says these stone cold takes that anyone that's looked into a little bit of Epstein will just be like, you're telling me he didn't blackmail? All right, then what do you know? You know what I mean? That's the reaction you're gonna have if you hear something like that. And I'm like, why do you keep doing this?

And then he's, I guess it comes down to a little bit of the familial bond at some point. Regardless of what your brother did, there's some bloodline there, connection, where he's thinking, they're talking about the Epstein files, that is my freaking brother they're talking about. Yeah. And they're saying they're going to come forward. And now the FBI director and his assistant are saying he did, he killed himself. I guess there's something in you have to be like,

that's a stone cold lie. I don't believe that. It's a hard place to be, you know, God forbid anything that would happen to any of us in this room where we had a sibling like this, but I don't know what that would look like, but there would be some genetic innateness and you wanting to be like, well,

it's my brother, it's my brother. We've had some good times with the things he did are terrible, but also he was willing to put up a hundred million dollars for his bail bond when they found out in 2019. Unless he didn't do it without pressure. I mean, that's possible, but still. No, it's, you ever see the Chris Watts case?

Oh my God, yes, I do know that one. Okay, so Chris Watts murders his wife and it was a few kids, I think, right? Yes, two. Yeah, so he had two kids with her. And, I mean, it's sinister stuff. I think he had like a mistress or something and then he just decided to kill all of them. Yeah. And I remember seeing a clip a couple years ago, I think,

of his sentencing. The guy is obviously a completely broken man. He's done the worst thing imaginable, and, you know, he's just sitting there head down, just totally accepted, because it was already agreed upon. Ahead of time, he was gonna get, like, fucking eight life sentences, as he should. But they read that his father did an impact statement on his behalf.

And I believe it was, if I remember correctly, his father didn't read it. Someone read it for his father and his father was sitting behind him in the courtroom. Here you have a dad facing the fact that his son is a is a Infamous murderer not just a murderer but someone who killed his own grandkids right of the father and I remember being struck by the fact that The dad said he was like excoriating a son for what he had done and whatever, but he said, you're still my son, you will always be my son, and I love you, and I will support you through,

along the lines of I'll support you through this thing. I remember playing that back a few times, and I didn't even know how to emotionally react to that, because I'm like, your kid murdered your grandkids, he's fucking crazy, you know? It's not your fault he did that, There's something that was screwed that went loose and wrong with him, and it is what it is. But, like, to still, in the middle of a statement like that,

where he's acknowledging everything that happened and acknowledging how bad this was and saying his son deserves all these punishments and whatever, to still then... say that he loves him. I've never been in a position like that, and hopefully I never am, where someone that I'm closely related to does something horrible. But there is something sinisterly human, maybe is how I'd put it, about the idea that there

are people who are related to these perpetrators who do no matter what see them in the other light, the good light, whatever, however dim that fucking light might be, that they are still going to acknowledge that at the forefront of what they do, even if they are excoriating correctly so and condemning the actions that their relative has taken. It's human. It's totally human I can't imagine if you're a parent you brought this child into the world You think of them as that baby you were holding. Yeah thinking that they grew up

They went to kindergarten middle school. They had friends. They played sports They met all these people and then somewhere down the line you find out they do something so horrific and so against what your family is. Like I can only imagine it's two independent people where they have the feelings of who they were before that and who they are after that and you know I think at a certain point it takes a very much a spiritual jump where you have to like at that point like how do you make sense of this stuff for those people? And that's a that's a very different jump for many people. Yeah, or you know, like the Christian angle of mind is like, we're all sinners, we all make mistakes. And, you know, through Jesus, you're saved, as corny as that is. And something

like that, you know, it's, it's incomprehensible how how you could forgive or even accept something like that Right and you know, that's why I think a lot of people fall back on their faith or if not the case you know the one case I'm thinking of was the serial rapist killer of young younglings and They have in the courtroom where they're each having their piece to say to this guy the family members Oh, you're talking about Larry Nassar. No, no, not Larry Nassar, some other one. And they're going down the line

and the parents are going up and essentially, they're ripping into this guy being like, how dare you ruin this young girl's life? And then this father comes up, he has this massive beard, like gray beard, and he comes up to the mic and he says, I'm gonna be very unpopular after this with among the people around me, but I forgive you for what you've what you did, you know, and I was just like,

the ball like this is your chance to lay into that person that took away your daughter, and not just took her away, but like did the most incomprehensible repulsive thing possible to this person that you loved. And you went up there on the stand and was like, I forgive you. I'm like, in a way, and you show, you see the face of the person who did it and they're like taken back, like disarmed and almost like, it's almost like a slap punch in the face to them in a weird way

because it's like, wait, what? Like I did something so fricking terrible, you freak, like- Yeah, it doesn't compute. It doesn't compute. And that's like the level of like, Like I did something so freaking terrible you freak like yeah done compute It doesn't compute and that's like the level of like people of that level forgiveness That's that's something I strive to be at some point, you know I hope I never have to go through anything like that right that clear But yeah, but to be able to forgive something as horrible as something like that. That's man

That's like I'm trying to be like Jesus. Yeah, I mean, look, I haven't had kids yet, but I can already tell you that guy's a bigger man than me. And you know what? There is something pretty amazing about that too, as much as like, you want to think like, how the fuck could you do that? Like you're one, I mean, because I said Nassar at first, because I thought you were going to bring up the dad who's like,

I'm going to come get you. Like that dad, gangster. And then the judge is like, I'll let it pass. She was like, oh, it's cool. She was such a gangster. But you know, like, I, and I get, I get that side too. A hundred percent, you know, but there's, there is something pretty beautiful.

And I remember we've, I think we've talked about it before, maybe on a Patreon episode, but the father who forgave his son's killer in the courtroom, remember that story? Yes, yes, yes. You know, his son was killed by, I think it was a pizza delivery driver, young kid, and the father had taken the time to look into,

or no, his son was the pizza delivery driver, and he was killed by this young Kid, it was maybe 17 18 years old something like that Just like callous killing and the father taking the time to look into the kid and he realized Again bigger man than most of us, but he realized that that kid in his opinion never had a shot He grew up without a father. His mom was never around. He grew up in a terrible area. He was influenced by all these other kids

in the neighborhood who were telling him to do stupid shit like this. And unfortunately, it was his son who happened to walk in there at the wrong place, wrong time when they decided to do something stupid. I don't think he, I think it was like he didn't intend to kill him, but he killed him. Yes.

And so he said to the court, he said, this guy's a young man, obviously has to pay for what he's done, but I'd like to see him have another chance in life and I completely forgive him. And you see him then go embrace the kid. And listen, as a human being, you watch that kid, you can see whatever evil's in there

or whatever fucked up nature has been put into that kid by his environment and his own decisions throughout his life, it's like it was lifted from him. It's gone. And he had something to live for now. And the judge had to excuse herself, call recess, because she was like emotional about it and came back. And I think he got like 25, 30 years,

could get parole at like 15 or 20. So he's going to pay dearly for what he did, but he didn't get life without parole because of the father, the victim. Yeah, do that. And, you know, to bring this back to back to Epstein, though, there's a huge difference here in his case. Oh, yeah. And the difference is we don't know all the victims. We haven't even scratched the surface. The main way just died. Right. So like the ones we're talking about, the father knew his son was dead, that's the murder that happened. The case is closed. The serial child predator that you talked about, they had all those cases. He was convicted in a court of law, the whole bit. That's what

it is. With Epstein, you're talking about a guy who there is significant evidence to show that he trafficked throughout his life thousands, and I will probably say tens of thousands of young kids. It seems like most of whom were girls. I believe there's some evidence to show there's also been the other side. We just, they don't really talk about that much,

but it doesn't matter, whatever it is, it's horrible. And it's also horrible, not just the minors, the girls who were 19, 20 and 21 as well, which, do you say like that's not as bad? But it's, you know what I mean? Like it's still horrible. But like the level of victimhood knows no ends and you know the only thing we have to show for it is a guy who died in fucking jail before he

could have a day in a real day in court not like the first one and a partner who then got convicted of trafficking people did nobody. I know it's it's it's ridiculous because you this is where I feel it becomes almost like a class issue in a weird way. A class issue? A class issue, because you think about people that are just in their local community, they do something bad, they have to go to court,

they have to have the case, everything's done, expedited, and then they get it, the justice is served. Whereas we're talking about the most wealthy, the most powerful, the most well-known people. And it gives the feeling that rules for the, not rules for me, like it gives that vibe completely. Because you just think about Virginia Roberts, who just passed away, where she was the one

that came forward in that documentary five years ago. Or- You see they cremated her, by the way. Nothing to see here It's just stuff like this were as you know, we're just armchair experts here, that's all we are We're just seeing the burden of evidence in Peru And it's like if you just look a little into this anyone that looks into this You can't say there are so many red flags every step of the way and it's just so frustrating because

This idea of justice I do not believe is gonna be seen through and all these girls who have trauma that they're gonna live with for the rest of their Lives and they're gonna have to deal with The people that did these things who are in that black book that we will probably never see are out there Living their lives as if nothing ever happened. And it's, people forget it's like, yeah, the whole thing with Epson, it's a mysterious case, it has to do with elites.

Like it has kind of the sexy headlines that people wanna click on or interested by, but people kind of forget where it's like, we're talking a huge issue here of human trafficking. Yep, when it comes down to it. It's not something that a lot of spaces online like people discuss. It's just for whatever reason, there seems something that a lot of spaces online, like people discuss. It's just for whatever reason,

there seems to be a lot of censorship around it, or it's just, it's very graphic. It's very graphic. When you think of trafficking, it's just, it's not a pretty image to think about. Of course. So when you're talking about, that is the root of this thing, and you know, the US tend to be a huge consumer

of traffic video women that are on these sites online. It's like these discussions where it's like, that's what we're getting towards here. Like this is a bigger issue overall, rather. I understand the Epstein thing is important and I want the justice there, but we're getting to the root of a huge issue that again is getting pushed to the side, unfortunately.

And then you have these politicians that come in being like, we're gonna end it, we're gonna take care of this and nothing gets done. it's just it's it's so frustrating because it's I Just think about all these women who you probably might see in grocery stores You're coming across like the amount of women that are affected by this and nothing is getting done for them. It's just I Don't know. It's just it's very sad. Like that's how I feel. It's just it's just, it's very sad. Like, that's how I feel. It's disgusting and it's very sad and it's just no justice for them.

The thing is Epstein, Epstein is the one we see because Epstein lived in New York City. I hate even talking about this guy when you're not just completely shredding him with everything but to Give credit to his role. I guess like not anything he did. I do not want to be misheard there Like he clearly was had effective skills as a spy. Yes, very clearly But he was also done in by the last 10 percent where he was terrible as a spy Which was here you have a guy that for the first I don't know 20 25 years he was op he was operable He did stay in the shadows. No one really knew who he was even when fucking Hoffenberg's thing blew up He was gone before the place before towers financial came down. No one ever heard about him

whatever and then it all changes in 2002 when he does that flight with Bill Clinton, and Kevin Spacey, and I think Chris Tucker were on there as well, you know, did to for all we know, by the way, could have been an innocent flight. I'm not saying it was because a lot of these flights weren't there was shit going on there could have been an in like In the court of law could have been an innocent flight They went to you know, obviously Clinton's on there. So people are thinking But like they went to like some some fundraiser for AIDS event in Africa

Yeah, I believe the way the story went was that Epstein, you know, said, we can take my plane. And he got these people on there, which means he knows they're on the manifest as well. And it made page six. And after that, Jeffrey Epstein, he got articles like, who's this mysterious Jeffrey Epstein? I think you can find these articles online in Vanity Fair, in like maybe January 2003, something like that, shortly after this, where people are starting to ask the questions like, who is this guy? And then he started letting his name get seen more. And he liked it.

He—in my opinion, he clearly liked it when it's like— Dr. Justin Marchegiani... Dabbling in the fame. Dr. Justin Marchegiani... Ooh, the little kid from Coney Island is being—is being thrown—yeah, there it is, the talented Mr. Epstein, March 2003. Dr. Justin Marchegiani... Look at you. Dr. Justin Marchegiani... Boom, Vicki Ward. So I was two months off, sorry.

But you know, he – there's something in the human psyche. Like we see everyone now who, you know, want clout and, you know, they just do crazy things to do it. To think that a spy is an above those human nature ticks is actually not right. Now a lot of them can beat that down because they're trained enough and they're like, no, no, no, don't do that. Don't go for clout.

That's not my job. But then some people, they get so comfortable. They do their job for so long, everything's just coming to them. Mansions, cars, money. I'd say women, but obviously that wasn't his taste. Illegal young girls, all these sick things in his life that he had for free.

He gets to hobnob with the latest sitting president at that time, Bill Clinton, and he's this important guy, Vicki Ward's, coming over to his house to... And she's talked about this extensively, done a lot of interviews about it, about how strange he was, but coming over to his house to get stories,

and he loved it. He loved the attention. And that's what did him in. And I say this because think about all the guys even running in elite circles, not even just people who are running in powerful businessmen circles and powerful whatever circles that aren't celebrities, but even think of people we don't know about who are running in elite circles with celebrities and other unsuspecting people in many ways who are doing shit like this that we will never know about and are working for all most likely at least as a useful idiot for all different agencies around the world because that is the other fucking 500 pound elephant in the room here they all do it they all do it some are a little more brazen than others but

like people like to pick it out like, oh, it's just us or it's just Israel or what? No, no, they all do this to some extent. Now does the mission, whatever the fuck you would call it, does the outline of the operation look the same across every agency? Probably not. No.

But are there, are there decisions that are made for espionage purposes, national security purposes, that they then do things like this? Absolutely. Think about Andy Bustamante talking about in the past, and I'm not calling out Andy here. The former spy, yeah.

Yeah, he's talking former. Big former. But you Yeah, he's talking, former, big former. But he's talking about the way that the machine views bad, like an unfortunate situation. Like I think he was talking about it in the context of a drone strike, where a couple of people die that shouldn't have died. And he's like, that sucks. That's horrible. As a human being, that shouldn't have died. And he's like, that sucks.

That's horrible. I feel as a human being, I feel bad about that. I'm just telling you how governments look at this. They look at that as a casualty, not a casualty in the sense of a, just a statistic that you're like, okay, who did we kill here? They look at it as a casualty of there's 8 billion people in the world. We got a lot of priorities here. And if you got to crack a couple of legs to make a fucking omelet, unfortunately that's what happens.

And it's not fair because it's innocent people, we're talking about innocent people here. You get caught in the crossfire, but that's how it is. And so when you look at even the worst type of victim, which is a child being completely abused and having their life taken from them, on the—as sick as this sounds on the Excel spreadsheet of an espionage organization, anyone around the world, that may be how they view it. And think about the conversation, because by the time this is out,

Roya has already been out, the conversation you've had with her. Roya Hakakian. And she made the great point about tyrannies versus democracies, of how tyrannies are more effective versus democracies. Obviously we're in a democracy, but you look at people like Putin, King John Un,

and all these other people where they can get things done the neck or that night. If we wanna get something done, couple months. Efficiency. Efficiency, yeah. So now this is where a lot of people get frustrated at these intelligence agencies because they're like, these guys are not falling jurisdiction. They're not abiding by us. But guess what?

There's a group of people and the top of a bunch of these intel agencies that probably are like, if we'll call it the Epstein case, being like, we don't need to tell this beyond the five people in this room right here. Right. In a weird way, that's exactly what Roya talks about with the tyrannies.

Yes. Because she's like, because they're like, if we tell this to the entire CIA or MESAD or whatever group of organization we're in, obviously this is not gonna fly. Right. There's gonna be a ton of issues. So let's do the quote unquote better thing and get this thing done within us

because we're gonna get it done, it's gonna be efficient. Versus let's go through the Senate, let's go through Congress, let's vote on it. Oh, they didn't pass, all right, let's ask these people. There wasn't a 50-50, you know what I mean? Like I can understand where these intel agencies, not saying I agree with them,

but I understand where it's like, it is way more effective to keep it within a small circle of people because you know it's gonna get done that night. And that if it means a couple casualties or a couple broken eggs, you know, at least they won't know what happened beforehand. They'll know the outcome because it'll be in the news and everywhere. But at least we were able to get this done. And I can tell that these Intel

agencies operate like this, because as much as I say, I hate to say this, it's the only way they're going to be able to keep up against our enemies. Right. Because if they're being so efficient getting things done and they're being like, alright, CCP, we need you in Sweden, Finland, something's going on there, we got to figure out what Norway's doing. Alright, go to the USA, let's go to Mexico, what's going on? And we're stuck in this process of checks and balances, which is amazing. We need those. But in order to get things done and compete with these people that are possibly to harm us, it's almost like it's easier just to bypass. I hate I'm making a great argument for them,

but that's- No, I see exactly what you're saying. I understand and I don't like it, but what's the alternative? They're sitting in these rooms making these decisions. And the first question is, is human trafficking happening right now? Of course, everyone in the room goes, yeah. So human trafficking is happening.

That's not in our control. Will it continue to happen? If it's not in our control, everyone says, yeah, and they go, so wouldn't it be a little better if we have it in our control and That and that is like the like to hit the fucking button and just send the asteroid because it's like But that's that's the thing yeah, they look at it like Well in that type of scenario we can't get any national security intelligence that counts for 125 points And by the way, there's 15,000 girls who are victims under our scenario. It would be 10,104 so that's a spread of three thousand, you know

And on top of that they look at it and on top of it They're thinking also probably being like well, this is extremely profitable Who knew we could make so much money from this? Well, let's just see if we can divert more of these funds into these black budget programs. Like that's what happens. But that's what probably happens because these things that are obviously not great,

like the drug wars, the human trafficking, what is the bottom line, the opium, all these things? Money, it all comes down to that. And like everyone, your parent has told you this since you were fricking three years old, being that money runs the world and money's the motivator. You think it changes when you're at that level of Intel? No, it doesn't.

So that's a very harsh reality that is very unsettling, but I understand. Is that, I don't know if that actually makes sense. Yeah, no, it's like we're talking about the hardest type of topic. That's like impossible to navigate around to like talk about it logically. Yeah.

Because it's an emotional topic. But if you wanna understand how it gets that point to where it happens under the control of some places that you would think should stand for everything that is against that, you have to look at whatever their logic is. Of course, we all disagree with it. We think it's crazy. But you know, I always say I'm very glad I am in those rooms making those decisions because

I don't think they like me very much. I'd be like, no, we're not doing that. You're gonna be Kiriaku. All right, let's put it on them. Exactly. Let's put it on them. They throw you in prison for doing that. That's why when John said,

when I said to John, we do it too, and he goes, not in my experience. No, listen, if it happened, I didn't see it. And that's where I went, bingo. Like you'd be the guy, they'd never show this shit. You do you wouldn't even do the torture You think that they're gonna think you're okay with with reading you in on the trafficking operation like get the fuck out of here You know, that was the one time but I fully understand why he said that because John and this is why I respect him so much much, actually stands for something that is just beyond

like let's protect national security. And I know, listen, I know national security is a critical thing, and I'm happy that there's people who stand for that, don't get me wrong. But you have to have the people in the room as well who stand for, I don't know, common fucking sense. And that's why I think John's a hero, because he did that,

and we're talking about even a way lesser type of thing, which was still serious, which is like breaking the constitution to do enhanced interrogation, stuff like that. Which he didn't even, like that's the thing, he just said, I'm not gonna be a part of it, because I won't stand for that. And they still went after him,

which should tell you that the rot, the rot of the bad apples who exist in this large barrel of apple has spread past a point that anyone in any country, let alone our own, should be comfortable with. And that's the question we got away with here. Like the people who are like, well, we need to abolish all three letter agencies.

Listen, I know that's fun to say, you know? It's a terrible idea. Try that, try that for three days, see what happens. However, the people who are then like, we need to try to reform these places and actually find a way where we can do it without them stopping us doing it, which is way easier said than done by the way.

Fuck yeah, fuck yeah, do that. And we're talking about the types of things where, you know, these are the kinds of things you should reform. The unfortunate contrary argument to that is, you think they're reforming anything in Russia, in China, in Iran? They're never going to. Like, we're gonna reform, we're gonna go, like there's someone who's sitting in that meeting going you mean

we can't try anymore and Russia gets to do it. God damn it. Like as fucked up as that sounds like that's what it is. Dude. That's what made me laugh. This kind of it's a tangent but the Pirates Climb in a court agreement. That's what always always made me laugh about that is because they were like, we're all on board except Nicaragua and China is gonna start like five, 10 years later.

That's what always cracked me up because they're like this, we're all on board. We're giving China the 10 year buffer though. So they're gonna start in 10 years. They said it, they put their word on it. They put their word on it. So we're gonna trust them on this. USA, let's go baby, let's stop it.

Learn the code, we got it. We've got this figured out. And it was just a crack joke, because I'm like, please just use your brain and think, do you think China in 10 years is gonna be like, oh yes, we're gonna stop because we care for the betterment, come on, come on. It's like, it's totally nuts. It's nuts, but we have that, we, you know,

we got this one case that we can stew on because it's the public one we know about. And it's got all the appeal to it because all the people who are involved in like, I hope you end up making a series out of this too, because I mean, you and I have talked about this case for years now, obviously, like it's a lot of people listening are the same as me. Like it's just a fascination because you're like, how the fuck could this all happen? But I would love to see you pull more on the

money on the money thread and get you know what? I just thought of this. I should thought of this earlier. See if you can get Jim DiOrio involved in looking at that, because he used to just track the money all the time. You what I mean? Let's see if you do something with him Tracking that 1992 theory and see if he can pull on anything. I just don't want to die Meanwhile Jim You should pull on it though. No, no, it's like we said, it's fascinating, it's interesting and it definitely hits on something that I find very important,

which is the human trafficking element. So I get something that I will definitely pursue in many ways, if not now at later points. There's one separate point here that I would love to get your thoughts on that bothers me a lot. We haven't talked about this in a while, but human trafficking is not political at all. It's a common sense thing.

There's humans being trafficked. It's wrong. We should all stand against that. A huge pet peeve of mine though, is that you had people starting with QAnon, make this a giant political thing, where it's just Democrats who do this stuff, which is total bullshit.

And they would take theories and it wouldn't be enough. Wouldn't be enough to say, oh, there's 2000 girls that got trafficked out of fucking Port of Prince Haiti yesterday. And the adrenochrome is being used for the elites to make them live forever. That's right. And I will tell you,

I have seen this from behind the scenes and I was talking with her about this. I had scenes and I was talking about this. I had a long talk with her about this the other day because her job is to go find people and get them on shows and stuff. I don't want to reveal like some bit, let's just say this because there's some private client stuff there, but there's only certain types of shows that you can get people who cover human trafficking and relate it in any way back to like Sound of Freedom on.

And not one of them is a moderate show. They are all hard right-wing shows. And one of the things that I've heard is that a lot of these people don't even ask to go on moderate shows. The people who are deciding to talk about this. I'm trying to be careful how I say this because I don't want to overgeneralize. But there are people who have decided

that this needs to be a right-wing issue. And they're basically going so far with some of these unfounded type ideas that it turns the left off to the point that, here's a concrete example, Reme Adeleke, who we had in for episode 157 and 158. He has done, X-Navy Seal, awesome fucking dude. He has done work around the world on human trafficking.

He's made movies about organ trafficking. Like, he's at X-Navy Seal. He's seen this shit up close. Go listen to episode 158. He'll tell you. And when I was talking with him, when he was here, he got so annoyed at how whenever he would now bring this up, this is 2023 when we're talking, his comment section would light up going, oh God, is this that QAnon stuff again?

And he said, I fully understand why those people are saying that, but now we are turning off half of the people in the world to this problem because it's been taken so far that they're like, all right, it can't be this bad, right? And so you now have a situation where within independent media, the ecosystem that's being pushed to talk about this

is like a right-wing ecosystem. Which is ridiculous. And that pisses me off so much because we're talking about kids here and the fact that you'd be pressuring, you know, more left-wing shows or moderate shows who wanna talk about this too, to not talk about it, because, you know, if left-wing shows or moderate shows who want to talk about this too, to not talk about it because, you know, if you talk about it,

you have to like name Hillary Clinton right away in a fucking pizza restaurant in DC. It's crazy to me. It's one of those topics that is such an easy middle ground where you can get people on both sides to be like, let's pass bills, let's do what we can to put an end to this thing, or find the root of the issue and just eliminate it altogether.

But instead, like you said, it's become so politicized and it's irritating, you know, being a Christian and I know a lot of Christians talk about it, it's frustrating seeing it's become such a political issue of like, this is a far right idea. And I'm just like, that's not the point of this thing. The point of this thing is we're talking about individual human beings that are being moved around without their discretion. It's modern day slavery. 100%. And for whatever reason, that topic, and this is where I get

frustrated with people who might be a little bit on the left where it's like it's something that you talk to them they agree with but it's like they don't want to go beyond that conversation you have with them being like Yeah, it's a terrible thing. I'm like, yeah, maybe we should You know why? Because they feel like it's been it's been ostracized to the point not even ostracized. That's my point Like they're like, oh shit Like are but are we gonna have to are we talking with like the QAnon people now? Who are like making this a whole thing that it's not that's what they're thinking and I and listen I

Get that because I've seen the internet. I've seen how these people talk. It's fucking ridiculous. Yeah, like if you put politics Next to next to trying to save kids. Fuck you, sorry. I got no time for that. This should be something every, like there should be giant podcasts of all different walks of life that come together and do fucking drives for this. Yeah.

Like why not? We have the power to spread that information. I would like to use my platform to do that too. But I can tell you some of the people that have been thrown my way to come on this platform. No way. Yeah, no way. Remi I like it was amazing. Did that one. Yeah. Right. Amazing. A political. Awesome. But these other people who will remain on that. Are you fucking kidding? No. That's the thing is they begin to make it a point being like I need to talk about these right ideology ideas, whether you agree or disagree. It's the thing is they begin to make it a point being like, I need to talk about these right ideology ideas,

whether you agree or disagree, it's like, that's not the point of it. The conversation is about kids. The one person who I follow and I support immensely is the Tintibo Foundation. And he's one of those people where it's just, he doesn't make it political. He's working with both sides of the aisle.

He's dedicated his life, his dad and mom has been doing this thing forever to fighting human trafficking. And he speaks to both sides. And he goes on the CNNs, he goes on the Fox, he goes on all these sites. And it's great, because that's what he talks about. And I can tell that some of these people

will try to push their agenda on him a little bit. And he always brings it back being like, hey, I'm just here to talk about this terrible thing that's happening. I'm not here to talk about my political beliefs as a personal thing that I don't need to share with the world. That's people can make up their own mind of that.

I just focusing on this one thing. And I feel like if people could start to do that. That's what we need. That's what we need Yeah, that's awesome. It's like that's the middle ground. But like you said, it's just it's crazy how Quite literally anything will become political. Yeah and people and it's it's marketing 101 in some way where it's like All right. How can we get this demographic for this voting block and these people and this ethnicity and XYZ? What are they like? Oh, we can get them on human trafficking. We can get them on Medicare, you know,

all these random things. And that's how these political machines work. And it's frustrating, but it's like, to them it's like, this is how we get them as voters and we keep them, because they hold on to that idea. So we're gonna hold on to them by holding on to that idea. And then that idea's ours. That's the greatest thing you said that I,

or not the greatest thing, but a thing you said that's great, that I really love. I said something great, holy shit. Was how you said, is how you said, when you see anybody driving, and they have an American flag on their car, what's the first thing you think about? Republican.

Which is not their fault, by the way. It's not their fault. Not their fault at all. And it's the Democrats, I'm not just gonna say the left, like Democrats, even middle Democrats, whatever, have given the American flag away to the right to Donald Trump to Donald Trump. And they have no one but themselves to blame about that. And that is the flag that we all live under. Yes. And

it's, it's now under a political party, which is crazy. When you see someone at the house and they have American flag, you think that immediately. Whether you think about it or not, everyone knows that. If you see some American flag, unless you're in some military area, then you're like, all right, military guys, American flag, awesome.

But if you're in some suburbia neighborhood and you see some American flag coming out, it's like. You know, now, which was not the case a decade ago, it was not at all. And you and I will say, those who are Democrats on the left, I don't see him waving American flags like they're prideful of it. You know what I mean? It's there's something weird that's so weird where it's like, this is our same country. Like if you're at a rally or you're somewhere together at a sports game venue, like this is the flag we live under. We should be proud of this. You know, and obviously it has its issues.

We've talked about it. Democracies is a mess, but it's the best system compared to everything we have. We know that, we all aware that it's a work in progress, but to take away the American flag and give it to a political party, whether you're part of it or not, or I'm part of it or not, is just so sad. It's so sad, man.

It's such a break in who we are. It's also part of why he won, by the way. I mean, just add it to the list. Like the fact that you have to think about that, because it's like a pressure thing. There's a lot of people who are moderate and left who I know want to show that fly. And it's not like it's an unspoken thing. They're like, oh shit. No Frills delivers. Get groceries delivered to your door from No Frills with PC Express.

Shop online and get $15 in PC optimum points on your first five orders. Shop now at nofrills.ca. But can I, I love the flag, but I can't, but I don't have this conversation, but you can see that. Like you can see them wrestling with that. And our friend with the restaurant was telling me the other day that he put an American flag in his restaurant. And he had a customer come up to him and say, I shit you not.

Why do you have a Trump flag in this restaurant? And he went, what? I don't have a Trump flag. And she pointed to the American flag and he goes, the American flag? She goes, yes, the Trump flag. And he goes, ma'am, we don't do politics in this restaurant. I don't talk about what I think or what my customers think. With all due respect, he handled it a lot better

than I would have. That's an American flag. That's not a Trump flag. And it's gonna hang in my restaurant. And I would appreciate it if you could respect that. And this is like, this is why politics is so cancer, because we've now talked about two common sense things. The first thing being human trafficking, which, and actually, I wanna be careful

how I put this too, this needs to be said correctly. It's like fringe elements of the right wing who have caused a problem there, not normal right wing Republicans and whatever. I wanna be very clear on that. The fringes have caused that problem. The morons have caused that problem by saying, no, no, no, and all this shit that was just,

it's probably an intel op that's been thrown down their throat. On the left side as well, the pressure of the fringes has caused the flag problem. We are talking about two of the most common sense things in the world that should be for wildly different reasons, obviously, unifiers that now aren't. And something in this country broke. We've cited it before, but Joe Rogan had a line like a decade ago or after Trump won for the first time where he said Donald Trump broke people He either broke him for him or against him, but he broke him. All right, there's no

Room for like nuance. I mean, it's like you're either this guy is Hitler or this guy is Jesus and And he is a thousand percent right about that and I'm not like pinning this on Trump at all. I wanna be very clear about that. I'm just saying like the nature of his controversial rise, if you will, has reverberated to where things like this happen. And it just, it really, it makes me sad sometimes. And I don't like to focus on all this stuff so much either

because I also know like there's so many good things we can be excited about and some things we've made it through, some bullshit we've made it through as well. You look at the pandemic and the bullshit a lot of that was. And like, here we are living as normally as we can, you know, and getting some things back. Like, we should celebrate those things. And that's great.

It's just, it's hard to ignore when you see just things like what we're talking about. It's like, what? We're all Americans, dude. And we're all, you know, outside of the criminals among us who are sick and support things like human trafficking outside of those very few, you know, we should all be able to come together. Yeah, don't call it a far right thing. That's right. Call it a leftist thing. It's just like it's a frickin problem. I haven't I haven't heard Tim Tebow. I he went on Sean Ryan show, right? Yes, I listened to that. Yeah. So I haven't heard that. But I will listen to that

because that's awesome. And I've always liked him. Tebow is a guy a lot. So if that's what he's doing, then that's exactly the kind of voice that should be in the space. And I hope that that opens him up. And he's actually probably a really good guy to do that because of the world he comes from. But I hope that opens him up to going on podcasts that are more left-wing and stuff as well

so that we can kind of tamp down the volume here. Because to be clear, also when you look at something like Sound of Freedom, there's a lot of people who worked in that that had amazing intentions and are doing all the right things. So it's unfair. And I don't want that taken out of context earlier. It's unfair to like paint it all one way.

But there are some people who have been involved with that, who have used it as a Trojan horse for fucking 4chan. And I don't fuck with that. And I never will. It just should not be politicized. Yep. Period. That's essentially how I feel. 100%.

All right, so you also did one on a favorite topic of mine that we somehow have not done a podcast on yet. Oh, nervous. Oh, you know what this one is. You did one on Princess Diana. Ah, yes. I haven't watched this one yet. What'd you do there?

So I looked into the whole story itself, you know I went through time stamps of you know when she left the hotel on the day of her death and in the day of her death and then up until when the car crash happened and You know she died shortly after and I just wanted to go through that just understand how that happened What led up to it and you know for know, for those who don't know Princess Diana, she was arguably, if not the most famous person of the 20th century. Her wedding was seen by 750 million people in 1981. Yeah, 1980.

It might be 1981. Was it? Okay. Yeah. That's what it was. Six times bigger than this last year's Super Bowl. Just 1980, like that's crazy just to put that in context. And then a billion people watched her funeral.

So this person was quite literally like the most famous person on the planet, which is just wild to think about. And the lead up to her death and her life, the royal family has always been an interest for many people and it's fascinating because it's a monarchy that's dead, but also they don't really have any political swing, but they do.

It's just a weird thing with that whole royal family thing. They don't have any, they have a light official political swing, but a strong behind the scenes. There we go. There we go, that's a good way to put it. And just her relationship with Charles and what led up to that, like, they met when she was like 16,

and you know, he was quite a bit older, there was a gap there, but then they didn't get married until she was 19, so you know, a couple years jumped, and then it was like, all right, I'm gonna land you. He's like, we'll wait around for you. Yeah, and then unfortunately to so, you know, a couple years jumped and then it was like, all right, I'm gonna land you. He's like, we'll wait around for you. Yeah, and then unfortunately to her, you know, from what I've read is that he was continuing his affair with Camilla, his previous lover,

up until literally she had an encounter with him where she was, they were at a party and he's talking to Camilla. And Diana went up and be like, I want my husband back. And she was like, you already have everything, you have the world. And she's like, yeah, I want my husband back. So I can only imagine the circles, what that was like.

And they just spun on a diamond and walked away. He never, and this is where I empathize with him a bit. He never wanted to marry her. He never loved her. I mean, to all of us, that seems crazy. She was a rocket and like the sweetest lady, it seems like. But he didn't want that. His family wanted that.

And because Camilla had was married when he was carrying, he had wanted to marry Camilla. And then they said, I forget what it was, but they're like, no, we don't want you doing that. So she married someone else and they continued to be in love. And then she was, she could have divorced and they're like, no, you still can't do that. And they made them marry this girl that made sense. Cause I think her, her grandmother was like the lady in waiting.

Yeah. There is some royalty connection and they're like, oh, she's perfect. And so he never, he never wanted that. And I I've always felt a little bad for that because it's're like, oh, she's perfect. And so he never wanted that. And I've always felt a little bad for that because it's almost like, you know, yeah, they're royals. They live in this palace and a lot of the attitude is like, fuck them and I get that. But also they're like a bird in a cage sometimes too.

And everyone just gets to poke their finger in and say, no, no, no, you could do this and do that. That's kind of what they did to them. And the amount of fame that came with Princess Diana, like it was like their relationship. Obviously there's the queen, which everyone knows about, but they were the couple that through the eighties up until the nineties, the divorce being so public,

everyone knew every single thing that was happening. When she and them were, I guess they weren't divorced, but they weren't seeing each other for a period, she'd go on trips. Like there's video of her where she was in the Caribbean with a friend and there's paparazzi all over the place on this island that's like really remote. And I just, I think about that.

I'm just like, the amount of fame was probably so overwhelming. And then there's the Princess Diana tapes that came out a decade later from her speech or speech coach. And you hear them and it's so funny when it comes down to these people. I'm sorry, it was from. There's the bodyguard. It was the, yeah, but it was from the author.

What was his name? He's a famous author. I've thought about having him in. He was his, her biographer. She did an unauthorized, like she would record the tapes and then like have a courier deliver them to him so he can write the book Andrew more there we go Andrew Moulton. Yes. Yes Yeah, but you hear the tapes and what it comes down to is you realize these people

Spied all the fame despite the power and all this they're human beings Yes, like she was a torn very tortured soul during that period you can tell like she was just she was a wreck very tortured soul during that period. You can tell she was just, she was a wreck. She was a child when she got pulled into this. Yeah. Imagine getting married to the most famous woman in the world when you're 19 years old. Yeah, and how much of like,

she was so counter to the royal family too. Yes. With the AIDS missions where she'd be hugging and touching the babies. Where they were like, they're like, no, no, no, we don't do that. She's like, I'm gonna do it, I don't care. They're human beings.

To her, like hanging out with the celebrities and icons and laughing and joking with them, where it was almost like the two worlds, the royal family and like that were kind of separated where it's like, we're up here, you're down here. She would go down and meet you at the level and it's like, yeah, I'm just a human being. So I could see why she was so beloved.

Like people, I can understand that. And then getting to it, where you then get to the 1997 incident where she dies, you know, I read the book by Thomas Gordon, Gideon Spies. We've talked about this. And... Tell people what that is. So Gideon Spies is essentially a collection

of interviews from Mossad agents by Thomas Gordon, who allegedly had this premier access, which again is debated because you're talking about one of the most elite Intel organizations in the world. And he's talking to these agents. And the first story, the first chapter of the book is about Princess Diana, which I didn't think I was going to be reading about. And you hear about Henry Paul, the driver, who was also the security manager of the hotel, hotel manager. That is one of the few times I've ever read a book

where every hair on my body stood up. When I read that part where they revealed Henry Paul. I was like, ooh. So I'm reading this and again, I'm taking everything with a grain of salt, just because you're telling me you're having all these Mossad agents come forward, telling you all these things like,

I don't know what to believe. He's had some other books. He did one on Rob Maxwell and all that stuff. But you're reading this and you're learning how like, Henri Paul was being built up as an asset with Massad and there was MI6 connection there. And there was a guy, if I remember this correctly, there was a caccia, which was their term for a covert spy in Paris, who had been working on Rippau

as a source at the Ritz, because a lot of Middle Eastern barons would meet there, and they wanted someone who wasn't, like, the manager, like, all the way at the top, but also wasn't the janitor. And he was perfect, because he had access. He was kind of a middle guy. He was like the driver. And there's evidence that that guy was actually outside with the... among the press in the front when they were escaping out the back.

Yep. Yep. And the other tie being that she was seeing Egyptian billionaire son, Dottie. Yes, Dodi Fayed Dodi Fayed and Dodi's father has been very vocal about this being he believes it's an MI six. Yeah, there's an MI six connection with Masad like he's 100%. He's been on air about it. He's convinced of that. So that's interesting. He's always been convinced. Yeah, there's an MI6 connection with Masaad. Like he's 100%, he's been on air about it. He's convinced of that. So that's interesting. Take a view. He's always been convinced of that. Yeah, he's always been convinced of that.

But you read it where it was like, in his bank account, there was like $200,000. There's a weird anomalies with Henry Paul and that that night he was drinking too much and they pin it essentially on the fact that he was a bit drunk and then they were coming down into the pass and they hit a white Fiat and then they hit the wall

and then it was an immediate crash and I actually saw an interview, I think it was on the LAD Bible channel, the Lad Bible or whatever they call it, where it was with Dr. Richard Sheppardson, who's a forensics expert, the number one premier one in the UK. And because of the conspiracies that came around the death, they asked him two years later, like, we need you to do a re forensics of the bodies, because this is getting out of control.

Wait, he got access to Princess Diana's body? He got access to the forensic reports, I think. I don't know about the bodies. I think it was the forensic reports. Um, that'd be something to look up. But he got access to it because he said there was just the multitude of just emails and just the public image of just they thought there was some sort of inside job and conspiracies. And they're like, we need to put that to rest because his best friend or colleague worked on the case.

And he was overly convinced that it was an accident. Everyone always points towards the white Fiat because what ended up happening is they couldn't find it and then they found it and they found that it was painted red, which was very weird, just a weird anomaly. So everyone's like, what was the white Fiat? Who's connected to it? It was some Vietnamese guy that was driving it apparently and he got hit and I guess scared

and ran away. Again, that's another thread to pull on. But then you're hearing this forensic expert and he's breaking down how the impact when it happened is no one was wearing seatbelts except the bodyguard. And as soon as the impact was made, it was the bodyguard can't remember his name. John Paul. Anderson? Anderson? John Paul Anderson, I think. Yes. Can we look up Princess Diana bodyguard lived?

John Paul. What do we got? Come on, photographic memory. I think it's John Paul Anderson. That sounds right. Or that might be the photographer or? Tommy Trevor Reeves Jones. It was another three-namer, whatever.

I feel like John Paul Anderson's a director. No, he's, no, no, no, no. No, no, no. You're totally right though. Man, the wires got crossed up there. No, no, no, you're right. He's connected. John Paul Anderson is connected to the case.

He is. What? To the fiat. You're totally right. Yeah, yeah, you're right. He's connected. John Paul Anderson is connected to the case. He is. What? To the fiat. You're totally right. Yeah, yeah. John Paul, not Paul Thomas. Whatever. No, no, no. No, this is not, there will be blood. Okay. So what ends up happening in the forensic report is what he said is the immediate impact, Henry Paul and the driver went in, Henry Paul instantly killed, just smashed. But there was the, he was in the seatbelt and what ended up happening is Princess Diana

was thrown forward with, yeah, hit right here really hard. And then Dottie was killed instantly. Yeah, killed instantly. And what ended up happening is they thought actually Princess Diana was okay. But I, but what he said was essentially like it moved The internal organs so hard that I think the heart there was a small Valve in the heart like they came up upon her and she said what's happened? yeah, and like kind of was fading in and out and

There's a small valve in her heart Which is a little sketch like like nothing else got broken, like she looked perfect, but this little valve, I wish it possible, it's possible, but you know, this small valve, they didn't realize had a leak, but where it gets weird, I don't know if you pulled on this, they took her to like the farthest away hospital.

Yeah. I forget how long it took to get there, but like when people talked about coming in to see her body like the family and whatever they're like she looked normal as hell Yeah, you couldn't even tell she was in an accident. Yeah at all. Yeah, so What was that? How long did it take to get to hospital like a half hour or something something ridiculous where it took way too long where it was Like this is strange and then it took the scenic route. Yeah, and then this is where it gets very weird I get you know

And this is where the quote-unquote conspiracy theorists have another point to hold on to. And that is in one of the letters that Prince Dana wrote to the bodyguard, she quite literally said Prince Charles is trying to kill me and it'll be in a motorcade accident, like a motor vehicle accident. And it was a letter that this bodyguard revealed. And it is the most bizarre thing. It is in her handwriting, everything. And he held onto and released it a few years in the 2000s later. And it's just like, that is so strange. And this was

the bodyguard that was with her 24 seven watching everything. And it's like, look, there's a few threads there that are very bizarre. I can't tell you what it is. All we have are this these pieces of evidence. You have the forensics expert saying this was a normal crash that was terrible. They could have been saved. They had seatbelts but they didn't so they died. Wait, was that the bodyguard or the butler? Ah, probably the butler or one of the two. That's important. Yes. Her bodyguard, she was she was tight with both

of them. Her bodyguard seems to be no no no That's a different guy. Okay, the bodyguard. I fuck it's been a while since I looked at this He's like a reliable Seeming kind of guy the butler there's been problems and the sons haven't talked to him for years because he was like trying To get fame around this so when when claims are made to him we got to look at that with a grain of salt. Yeah so let's look at that because someone had the note that yeah yeah it said. Who did Diana write the note about Charles Motorcade to? Let's start there there's a lot to pick yeah I haven't looked at this in a while but this

is a lot in this case. Princess Diana letter claims Charles was planning an accident in her car 10 months before fatal crash. Go down. All right. So Princess, yeah, Paul Burrell. Paul Burrell, got him. So that's the butler. Yeah, this guy, there's been some issues there.

So maybe that really did happen, but there's questions around his validity. Now, God, there's so much to bite off here. I remember I went early on, I went on a podcast as a guest, this is 2021. And I used to look at this case and this was one of those, he was asking me about like the death and if I thought it was a conspiracy. And this was one I always thought I'm like, no, it's not. And I was so strong on it. I was like, it's like, no, no, no, there's no conspiracy or she died in a car accident. And it kind of switched

for me when I read Gideon spies and that's, yeah, that's what happens. I'm like, I remember texting that kid. I'm like, you know, this might've been a really cold take, but you know, yeah. So Princess Diana, a lot of people would've wanted her dead. A lot of people. And it's like old British society kind of shit. I will say I've never bought that Charles would've wanted it. I don't think he's that good of an actor. When you see him after she died, he's broken.

Now I guess like some people, they do something bad and they're broken. That's a possible argument, but like that's a broken, broken man. And I don't think it was because, you know, he loved her or anything. I think it's cause this is the mother of my kids and like her life was cursed for this to happen. Yeah to her to get to this point, but it's an important one to me

That's why we have the fun co here. Yeah, there's a lot of her on there because that's my first memory. Oh Wow. Oh, yeah, I'll never forget that I walked into her I walked into the Room This little my dad used to have So, her, I walked into the room, this little, my dad used to have like a room that he would, it wasn't a closet, but like he'd get ready in there while my mom was sleeping, because he'd get up early. So I walked in this room and there's like a little TV

in the corner. And I walk out of my room as a three-year-old, walk right into that room and my dad's sitting on the ground, like crammed in front of the TV, watching the funeral procession. And I remember it, it was the part where they're traveling away from London, and everyone's throwing the flowers.

I'll never forget that image. And I was like, I was like, what are you watching? And he goes, uh, because he's realizing, like, he's gonna have to explain, like, death or something right now. And I'm, uh, because he's realizing like, he's gonna have to explain like death or something right now. And I'm like a little kid. And he's like, uh, the princess, they're driving her to heaven. And I was like, what do you mean? He goes, well, she's in that car right there. And

they're driving her to heaven right now. And I'm watching it. And he said something like that. It was really like profound. So as I got older, I like studied her life a lot. Yeah, yeah. And if you look at all the angles, she did have a thing for Middle Eastern men. Oh, she did? Which was a big no-no for the British family

who's all about white society. And so, you know, she almost married that heart surgeon. I forget his name now. We looked that up, heart surgeon Diana, almost married. It was like the one guy she was ever fully in love with. And really good guy. As not con. As not con, that's right.

And they flew a gasket about that. But like I was saying, she was forced to grow up like out of nowhere. Oh my gosh. Under this thumb and this thing and like this job and this duty that they have. And she was like you of nowhere, under this thumb and this thing and like this job and this duty, you know, that they have. And she was, like you pointed out, she was a real person. So then her marriage breaks down and she goes and she starts dating a guy like that in secret

for a long time, they didn't like that. And then she's with Dodi Fayet, who was a bit of a playboy, also Middle Eastern. His dad had been trying to like hobnob with the queen forever as an outsider Egyptian in British high society. He owned Herod's. Yeah. And she was also, she was a major activist,

especially after her marriage. She was doing all the landmine stuff. She was the first person that was completely bigger than the crown, all of it put together. And so you could say on the one hand, oh, than the crown, all of it put together. And so you could say on the one hand, oh, so the crown wanted her dead. Choose a threat. I don't, I don't think that's what it was.

I think it's some other stuff. But somebody wanted her dead. And somebody made sure it happened. Maybe, you know, the crown is like, damn, it'd be great if she could be gone. And some other people are like, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're just like, they're like, you know, they probably would be better off. Yeah.

And that would make it also easier to cover it up. But it does seem when you put it all together, the way it was tied together so perfectly. They got her body out of there like same day. Oh my god. You know, they got, and it's hard to say that there wasn't some sort of influence there. I saw someone the other day make a claim, I think this is just like recency bias, but they're like, oh, she was going to come out supporting Palestine. Oh my gosh.

So they had to get rid of her. And I'm like, I don't think. All right, dude. I think that's enough internet for you know, but there's so many possibilities and so many places but she she was she was a flawed person just like all of us but she was an amazing amazing woman clearly like an incredible mom as well. And you know, I think—I think people should really admire like a lot of the things she did to be a rebel for the right reasons. Yeah. And she also—we always talk about the IMU theory.

Mm-hmm. Bro, she was that. She might have been a royal, but she was an outsider. She was a young girl trying to figure it out, stick it to the man, being told by authority what to do, trying to just raise her kids and love them in a marriage with a man that she loved but he didn't, so they're both having midlife crises, and then she's gotta be a divorcee and fi— like, people are like, oh my god, this is like a normal— it's like reality TV. It's a normal person. She's— they saw themselves in her and that made her as beautiful as she was as well.

Obviously, most people aren't that beautiful, but it made her larger than life. Totally. I would love to do a... Not necessarily a podcast, even like digging into, so who killed her? But like, I'd love to do a podcast with like, a Tina Brown or someone like that who covered her

or an Andrew Morton and really get into her life. Because as you said, she was the most famous person on the planet and there is something to be said for that. Oh my gosh. You're rivaling Michael Jackson, people like that at the time. The one thing I will say that was also a bit strange, and I'm just pulling on the threads that I find

that people are using as like, this is why it was an inside job or whatever, was also the Queen Elizabeth connection where she and her Whatever reason didn't seem to be as close as she said in those tapes And then when she died the Queen didn't say anything for a period of time Four days or five something like that and I think the show the crown or whatever was they did a good depiction of this Have you ever watched that? I've not watched it. It's one of, it's a top five show of all time for me. Oof.

They did that great of a job. Yeah. The sixth season is a little eh, but the acting's incredible, but the first four seasons are perfect television. Okay. Fifth season is really good. So I watched the clip of the queen,

that scene where they're going through and she's being prepped for this. And it was, you know, I couldn't tell if she didn't know what to say, and it was something so dramatic, and she was such a counter to what the royal family was that she wanted to say it right, or she was trying to be there for her kids, or, you know, is it suspicious?

But that was so strange to think. It took four days to respond to your daughter-in-law, who just passed away in the most horrific thing, and all of Britain's waiting to hear. And you're leaving them in silence. It just seemed. The whole thing was odd. It was very odd.

That was one point where I'm like, you know that's something that I can see where people pull on. Yes, absolutely. I get that. So yeah, the whole case, her iconic and just a tragedy of what happened and fascinating story. Yeah, a lot there.

So we gotta figure that out. I've had that on the list for a while. We haven't like done any reach outs, but we should do something about that. One more thing before we talk about your news and all that, which we'll get to. And we actually just did a really fun podcast with our friend, John Rondy,

where we went very deep on that for a long time. So what we're doing today is very different from that. So that this will be out after that. So everyone go check that out. That link will be down below. That was a lot of fun doing that, the three of us. But you know, did you watch this Jordan Peterson thing? Yeah, I did. I watched I watched Bit and Pieces. Not the whole thing. Jubilee? Yeah, I watched Bit and Pie, because it was kind of hard to swallow. It was like this is. Yeah, not a great day for him.

He didn't do well. But the Jordan Peterson like take down thing that's happening right now from the right wing, more than anything actually, feels a little strange to me. Like he had a bad day. He didn't He didn't do well I've had my differences with some things that he says and things and styles he has in the past But by and large, I think he's done some positive things for especially a lot of young men and it seems very weird that people are trying to take him down and

attack him for his relationship with Christianity. I always get very uptight when people decide to litigate every single thing that their religion is supposed to mean, and if you don't adhere to that perfectly, you therefore aren't in the club. This is one thing I took issue with Wes Hff when he was in here on and talked about Jordan Peterson. I thought and you know, we went back and forth on that. I thought that was that was bullshit. But I mean, you've been a longtime fan of the guy like, do you find this a little weird

that that they're coming after him this hard? Yes, I do find it a bit strange, but I understand it. You know, yeah, I understand it. Just because the people that are coming at him, the hardest, you know, you have the atheists, but I think even harder than them are even the Christians. And a lot being because of the fact is, as a Christian, there's this expectation that you're going to claim who your Savior is wherever you go in a weird way, where it's like my Lord and Savior is Jesus Christ. That's for me, that's my personal truth, whatever. And he's never publicly stated that.

And he's been very cryptic when he answers the questions of like, do you believe in Jesus? And he'll always be like, what do you mean by believe? Well, what do you mean by Jesus? Yes. Because Jesus could be another dimension. And I get what he's doing here. He's not, it's not a game to him.

It's not a game. He, it's so funny, out of people talking about the Bible, I think Jordan Peterson today is the greatest spokesman on the Bible, and he might not even be a Christian, which is weird, because the way he describes it, he is taking these concepts of what is God, what is belief, what is giving your life and dying by something you believe?

Because many of us just say these things but it's like he takes it the step further where it's like What is the psycho analysis there? Like are you willing to die for what you believe and I could be like totally well push comes to shove let's really see and For him. He has a hard time making that conclusion of being, I believe Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior, because what does that even mean? What does that mean? He died on the cross for our sins, but what does that mean to me? And Christians are like, admit it, admit it, say it, say it.

And he is like, I just, I'm still in my walk trying to figure it out. And I don't blame him. Everyone's in a different walk in their life with Christ and on those things. And you know, the way he talks about the Bible, I love. It's so enriching. I learned so much from him.

He changed my life in 2017 when I wasn't a Christian. It wasn't Christianity, but it was because I read 12 rules for life. And that was in the middle of college when, you know, I felt like I was part of the white problem patriarch and I was an issue. It was true. That's what it felt like.

And then I'm in college, I'm in my dorm room and there's YouTube and what comes up is his interview with none other than Joe Rogan. And I'm listening to this guy, I'm like, hmm, that makes some sense, cool. And then I see an interview with GQ with Cathy, I think her name was, or G something. And I see that interview and I'm like,

this guy is speaking to what I'm experiencing. I remember vividly having that visceral emotion being like, dude, I've been told this and subtly feeling it, but I've just always rejected it, that I am a problem, I'm a white male, I'm a big problem of society today, I need to fix what I'm doing, and I'm just like, dude, how did I get uphold to all these weird standards

that I've never done anything wrong? I feel like I haven't done anything. And this guy made me feel like, oh, I'm being heard, I know what's going on. When I read his book, you know, with the whole clean your bedroom, make sure your bed's set, all these things, and like stand upright with your shoulders,

and he's bringing the psychological component to it, like it changed my life, it truly did. And you know, the biggest thing now is they've been wanting to talk about a Christian, and then going back to it, like it changed my life. It truly did. And you know, the biggest thing now is they've been wanting to talk about a Christian and then going back to it, weaving around now, he's had this debate with the 20 atheists. Funny how they said one Christian versus 20 atheists and then they changed it to Jordan Peterson versus 20 atheists. Which also should have been the title in the first place. Exactly. Way more clickable. Yeah, exactly. More SEO. We know that. You see how we think that. Yeah, exactly. But he goes on there and you

could tell Jordan Peterson was in there. He'd not watch this Jubilee stuff. I believe that. I think he had watched it. He would know if you're having Charlie Kirk in there and you're having freaking Michael Knowles and Ben Shapiro and there's these viral clips like as much as I love Jordan Peterson, he's also kind of a boomer. And like, I don't know how much he knows technologically. Like he's always like, Michaela is always handling this stuff. I'm just going up to these meetings and handling it.

And you could tell that guy went in there with the intrigue to want to understand where these atheists stand when he's having these conversations. And you have a guy, you have a couple of these individuals who are trying to get the clicks and You can are you're trying to do the gotcha moment because that's gonna send you to the spotlight Which some of these guys are now in the spotlight and they're getting the attention and they're getting their

atheist Wing group lefties, whatever that might look like to rally with them and they're getting this sort of quick fame because it's a takedown and that's awesome. You could tell he wasn't in there for that. And you know, there's a couple moments where he did get, I gotcha and do I think some of these debaters came in with good intention? I think there was a few. There was that one girl, Zizia or whatever her name was. She, I feel like she asked great questions and was curious. Then you have the two other guys where it's all semantics. It's all about trying to trap them and get them to say something wrong and hold them and it's like, look, Jubilee, you guys are all about debates and catching people and doing highlights. I don't know how constructive that is for our culture today.

It's not good on for you guys. You guys are getting a bag. That's if that's what you want. Fine. But understand you're not helping with anything even with those middle ground conversations You guys know what you're doing and everyone should be aware of that. I will tune in watch it like it's it's it's intriguing You watch this stuff. You're like, oh wow, this is an interesting debate, but it's all gotchas and You have that purse these two guys are who are going at peterson and they come in and they're like julian It's a pleasure to meet you. Oh, what do you think? So what's your definition of that? That's interesting. Well, if you say that, this is what this means. And guess what, Julian, you're wrong.

So you have a fallacy, you're wrong. And because of that, your whole belief system, you're nobody. It was no good intention. And it comes back to what this podcast is about, where it's like, we're not about the gotchas. We're about a constructive conversation. And to Jordan Peterson's fault, he should understand Jubilee is not about that Jubilee is all about the gotcha moments and they want the angry the yelling. That's the clips

I mean, he should have been able to tell that though There's fucking 20 people in a chair running to the other chair to tag it to get in. I mean You should have been aware that I mean, and I know that and like, even he does all these faces like someone would sit down and he just goes, he's so into it. He's eccentric. He's so eccentric. He's very eccentric. I just, it feels a little bit. I don't know, I'm still trying to process how to explain this. Like I know it in my head, I don't know I'm still trying to process how to explain this like I know it in my head I haven't been able to get it in words right but it's weird that I'll start there it's very weird the attacks coming it's like the attacks

are not coming in like this and I will go back to this point about whether or not he said oh Jesus Christ is my savior or whatever. Like, you gotta let people have their own journey with stuff and you should not throw the baby out with the bath water with people. If you're someone who believes that and will openly say that to everyone because that's what your religion tells you to say, you know, great. But if someone else won't say that, because they're going through their own process with it, and they're adhering, they love the Christian story, and they're adhering to a lot of things that make people a Christian and make the beautiful part of that religion,

I think that should be celebrated rather than be excoriated for the last 10% you won't go, because you're not there yet personally and this is where I run into a huge problem with any organized religion because there becomes this dogma of strict adherence and it's groupthink and I can tell you Jordan Peterson is anti groupthink on anything and I think that's a huge reason why he viscerally will not say things out loud because he's like in his head he's, how is that different than people saying trans lives matter? Now obviously it is you understand what I mean? Okay, and I think he knows it's different too

But the concept as he would say the concept I see where this road goes You know, I can see how he would think that because I also have a brain that things like that I am very anti group think it's a big part of the reason why I don't adhere to an organized religion I believe in God. I'm on relationship with that I take aspects of things that I think are great and I'm on my own journey with some of that stuff But I I don't You know to me like the perfect encapsulation of it was actually a line in the departed When Jack Nicholson's

talking in the beginning to Matt Damon's kid character. And it's just like an aside, but he goes, you got a church, Neil, Stan, Neil, Stan. And I just think Neil stand in my head all the time. And the point is, you're just going along with the motions because that's what it says to do because someone interpreted the book that said we should do this, and we should be in charge of this, which means you people gotta do this, and by the way, make sure you put your fucking cash in the thing, because that's what's gonna keep the roof on this place. And there's something about that that is so cynically, completely against what religion should be to me,

and so I can see how a guy like Peterson would be a little Hesitant to do things that are gonna say hey, I'm a member of the team here So I just I think it's unfair like and the point I really disagree with Wes on is that Peterson has a little bit of a different interpretation of what the resurrection could be and Wes is like if you don't believe in the Resurrection as it's written. You're not a Christian. I'm like bullshit was off. Who the fuck are you? Are you God? I like Wes. Who are you? You're God and he loves it. He says this on every show He goes he brought it up. He goes out of his way to say this and I'm like of all the people To attack in this world right now You're gonna go after Jordan Peterson because he's got a little bit of a different opinion on something That's not very Christian.

Sorry, it's not. It's not very. See, I understand what Wes is saying, because again, your relationship with God in the Christian faith is also extremely personal. And I know there's a big thing of sharing the good news, and that's important, and I get that. But also where people's walk in faith are, it's who are you to criticize someone when they're in their walk of faith? You know, I mean that's like where you're going where deeps going where I'm going. It's like, you know, I love talking about my faith

So I know everything about the Bible. No, you know Are there some things that are in today's culture that are talked about that I can speak so profoundly on our no like I'm I'm a sinner. I freaking don don't know everything. But I'm trying to learn. I think that's where I love Peterson, because he's trying to learn. Yeah. And I think this is the issue from the Christians is where they are trying to get him to say these things, where it's like, he's not there yet. He's on his own walk. And whatever that is right now, and there's nothing wrong.

There's there's nothing wrong with that. I think he's on his walk to figure that out. And it's nothing wrong. There's nothing wrong with that. I think he's on his walk to figure that out. And it's, it's beautiful, like I said, because out of everybody out there that I've watched, he breaks down the Bible better than anybody. He has a whole series where he brings in like 12 other Christians, atheist scholars, and they go through the Bible. And they said they go through Genesis, they did Exodus. It is one of the most phenomenal

roundtable conversations because you have atheists coming in who are scholars given a point of view of the Christian faith and Jesus resurrected or in Exodus and then you have these Christian scholars talking about as well and it's just like these back and forth where you're learning so much. I'm like dude, I don't see any other Christians doing this. All I see are a lot of Christians criticizing other Christians for being Christians and it's so funny how they tend to be the worst. Where it's like, give these people a break. There's one thing I want to talk about related to Christianity. Is that cool? Your show, bro.

So I wanted to bring up something that has not been talked a lot about is the Christian persecution happening and Specifically in Africa if you look at the world reports, obviously the worst country to be a Christian is North Korea I think most people understand why it's not a big fan of that. Oh, yeah, that should be common sense Yeah, so even though there's still half a million Christians in North Korea There's half a million in there reported by the World Report and it's underground and then there's still half a million Christians in North Korea. There's half a million in there reported by the World Report and it's underground. And then there's also in China. That's pretty gang. So like the top 10 usually rounds out as like North Korea, then it goes like Somalia. And then Afghanistan was in the top 10. It fell out because of the whole Kabul disaster, the withdrawal. And then so those

are the worst. These are the top 10 most persecuted, but the most violent persecution of Christians is happening none other than in Nigeria. Nigeria. Nigeria. And this is where you know about this, you know about this, which is so funny, is the ISIS groups there of Boko Haram.

And then you have also in the Republic of Congo, which in February, this is an important story to talk about, was there was 73 beheaded Christians. And it was by this allied democratic republic group of Congo. They're just an ISIS sect of like Boko Haram pretty much. And these ISIS sects are essentially, they're trying to make Africa an Islamic continent.

That's their goal. And their goal is to wipe out all Christians. That's their message. And what ended up happening, it was the early mornings in February, and these cars were driving in and everyone was asleep in the town. It was like 2 or 3 a.m. And all of a sudden you start hearing, being like, come out, come out, we need you guys, we need you guys.

The people don't know, the Christians are like, what's going on? So they go outside and they're again rallied up by this ally Democrat Republic group. And they're like, hey, come with us, we're gonna take you over here. So where do they take them? They take them to their church, nearby Protestant church. And then what they do is they take them inside the church

and one by one, they behead them. the church and one by one they behead them. One by one they just beheading them. And is Ali Tabrizi covering this? This is all Ali. Ali Tabrizi is doing a phenomenal job covering this because it's just for whatever reason, it'll make some headlines in some places but it's just not talked a lot about. Like one in five Christians in Africa are being persecuted. One in four are being persecuted in Asia,

and then three out of four in the Middle East, which I think that one's kind of also like kind of obvious for the reasons over there. But in Nigeria, that whole belt of Africa right there, they're the beheadings, the killings, they're using saws, they're using like hammers to like kill these Christians. And their whole goal, like they're telling them is like, denounce your faith, denounce your faith, denounce it, like Christ isn't king all these things. And they're persecuting them and killing them. And there's a horrible

story that happened a decade ago in Nigeria where there was a pastor and his wife and two kids. And again, another ISIS sect rallied them up and they held the pastor and they executed the girls in front of the husband and wife. And then they took the wife, executed in front of the pastor, and then they killed the pastor. And then they butchered up their body and chopped them up. And the only reason we know this is there was a kid in the roof watching this whole thing happen and witnessed it. And it's crazy to me that the Christian persecution, I don't know what it is. I think a lot of it comes down to there's just a thing with Jesus that I guess people don't like. It's just what it is. But the- Don't like. I don't understand. I understand why it doesn't get covered more

or to get talked about. That's what blows my mind. You're having some independent journalists from Australia who's not even that big talking about it. And then- Should be bigger. Should be way bigger and will be. We're working on that.

We're working on it. And it's taking these independent journalists to talk about it. And then once they talk about it, you get a few of these main media outlets that talk about it and then it's done. Where it's crazy to me where it's like, these things are not being talked about.

And they're literally, they're killing these people, Julian, because of their faith, which is freaking crazy to me. And I know there are other ones and there's always the game of being like, well, what's happening in Israel, Palestine, what's happening to the Muslims or the wagers in China. And it's like, look, I'm not playing that game. I'm just saying, I've looked into this. This is something that's not talked about a lot. I just want to bring it to light. You know, it's just, it's something that's incredibly sad to see because it's just, it's horrible, innocent people. And a ton of these people, like the groups around them in that African region, the other Christians are unafraid and continue

to follow their faith, despite everything that's happening there. Knowing that they're in danger of literally like your kid or your wife or your cousin are gonna get killed maybe in a week from now. And it's not like these Christians are like, let's arm ourselves and kill them. Like these Christians are like,

they tend to be like, we're not a militant group. We just wanna live by our faith what we believe. And that's that. And it's just so sad. It's very sad. It's tragic. What human beings still do to each other in 2025, somehow still shocks me.

It shouldn't, sadly. But yeah, some of this stuff doesn't get covered. And some of it's just math. Oh, yeah, which is just really sick. But the math is, if you use the old intersectionality curve, Christianity, the people you're talking about aren't associated with this, to be clear. You're talking about people in Nigeria and some of these other countries that are smaller that we don't think about, but like Christianity is a Western white man's religion with a following of two billion. It's the highest on the curve.

From a victimhood perspective, the scales aren't low enough down the curve for people to pay attention to. And I think that's part of the problem. I don't think it's, you know, I'm sure there's some sick people who are like, you know, decide they got beef with like the character of Jesus. I think that's really weird and probably sick, but whether you believe in it or not, like it seems like he was a pretty goddamn good guy. You know,

it's just something, something about it is it's been that way for a long time. And we play this game to where we have to... People gotta fight over whose tragedy is worse. It's all bad. Yes. We shouldn't... We should treat it all the same. If anyone is killed to start a murder, it's wrong.

Then you start it, then you get to... If anyone is killed on the basis of their social background, their racial background, their country background, their ethnic background, insert anything you want here above, you know, it's all horrible. Yeah. And part of the problem is what gets clicks. Yeah, we know this, you know, and I saw Charlie Kirk tried to get this kid at Cambridge in a gotcha and he failed miserably The kid was advocating for Palestine. He said can you name me the other genocides happening around the world? The kid goes Myanmar and which is the one oh

The one the effron fights so we know about that. And then, you know what's really sad? I can't remember the other one he said. That's horrible right now, I can't remember it, but point exactly actually to Charlie's point right there. But this kid being someone who's outspoken about genocide right now in Palestine, Charlie was trying to play the game of, well, you only care about Palestine

because it's low on the curve or whatever, and the kid very quickly proved, no, I care about all of them, any of it's wrong. We're talking about this one right now because it has the most attention and I think that's part of the problem. We have ones that have the most attention. They should all have the highest degree of attention. It's a very similar argument to what we were talking about earlier with the human trafficking.

It should be the attention of everyone. Exactly. You know? And I don't know, there's, culturally we are living in a really weird time right now where people are deciding what the intentions of all powerful people are, people who hold the strings to anything that we see or whatever, and I don't know. Do I know that there's some,

the incentives have gotten fucked up? I'm talking the money and what pays? Hell yes. And do I think that within that barrel of apples, yeah, there are some rotten apples who maybe say, nah, we're going to pay attention to this, but not that. Fuck yeah. And do I think there's also probably bureaucracy in different governments around the world interfering with that abso-fucking-lutely. And they're probably telling themselves they're doing it for the right reasons, but probably not in the end what it is. And I think it is sad that a guy like Ali

has to cover these stories. And it's important though that guys like him do. And when he's here, we'll talk about it for sure. And it's a strange intersection they know about, is these Islamic extremist groups. How are they being funded? What do you mean? The poaching.

A lot of them are doing there for poaching. Oh, in Africa, you're saying. In Africa. Yeah. And they're going after the Christians. But the funding is coming from some of these Middle Eastern, even Chinese countries, that are keeping them afloat. Because they pay for the ivory and all. Yeah, it's crazy.

It's crazy. Everything's interconnected. Just follow the money. Everything's interconnected. Exactly. And it's like we were saying in a separate conversation earlier, people are just casualties on the board. In some of these cases, it's a macro game.

And what you're talking about, and it shouldn't be this way to be clear, I'm just saying how they look at this, what you're talking about is a micro problem. Microaggression. That's how, sure. That's how they look at it though. And it's really a goddamn shame.

But I have written on my cup here, goodbye forever. That's wrong, that's so wrong. Yeah. That's so wrong. Yeah. That's not accurate. It's an exaggeration, but if people haven't heard it, we have Dief in studio working sticks for the first time. How are you feeling? Feeling good.

Good. Yeah. So Dief was on episode 103 and 132 with me, one of my great friends and unexpectedly someone who wanted to do this, but we haven't talked about this yet and everything. I think it's been hinted on a couple of Patreon episodes, but you, Alessi, are becoming the head of content here. Which you already-

COO, please. Yeah, the COO. Whatever titles you want, you got them. You already are, but like Alessi wears, Alessi and I have been building this thing like alone for a while, and he wears a million hats. We both do, but like, the number of hats that he's added over the past 18 months especially is unbelievable, considering like, where we were starting with all this, and what you knew, and what you had to learn.

It's fucking incredible, so you've been doing an amazing you knew and what you had to learn. Grasp roots, baby. It's fucking incredible. So you've been doing an amazing job. But obviously you hate New Jersey. No. You look at New York as the city of Sodom and Gomorrah. No, no, no. Whereas Joe Deaf and I are alive when we walk through this concrete jungle. So I knew obviously you were gonna wanna go to Florida at some point.

To be honest, I thought you were gonna come home from your wedding last year and be like I'm out and I was ready for that. And then you lasted like another 10, 11 months which that's awesome. Thank you. But what I like about this is you're gonna get to focus on all the shit that you're the best at that also helps me the most as well. And I got someone here who can do the in-person job. Fucking amazing.

And we all got chemistry, which is great. But I wanted to make sure we did an episode. Like we have the Julian and Alessi show that we've been doing on Patreon, which I now guess is gonna be the Julian and Deif show. Sorry. A double D show, baby. A double D.

But we haven't, since episode 85, when you were on, long before you were working with me, we haven't done a podcast together. And I think that was well overdue. But I think people really need to know. I do love it when people in the comments sections recognize, like, you doing a lot of stuff here, which is great. So there's a lot of people out there who have picked up on that. But for the people that listen to the show regularly who don't understand how much

you've done behind the scenes and how much you bought into this thing and made this what this is today, they need to understand that. And you're going to continue to do that with me. So I want to make that very clear to people unless he's not, this is a joke. It's not going anywhere. He's just technically moving to Florida because he hates it up here, but I do I I do want to say we'll talk about some of the background here and give people that and we went deep on John Rondy show again so you can really get the full story there But I do want to make sure publicly, you know I thank you and everyone out there has a chance to thank you for getting it to this point and helping set up this Studio and get the live switching going,

which is not something we did before I had you. And I've always said, like, you gotta have the people who believe in you when a lot of other people don't. And you were one of those very first guys and I didn't even know you when you first did it. So I will forever be indebted to that. And I'm very, very happy to see where you're at,

see you doing your own channel, which everyone needs to go subscribe to, by the way, in case you haven't figured that out yet. Hey! You know, and continuing to do great work with us too, so thank you. Well, thank you, Julian. You've changed my life, that's for sure. That's, it's crazy to say, but it's very true.

This last week, I've been very pensive about the move because I've moved a few times from California, Santa Cruz, San Diego to Miami and I lived in a bunch of places and then coming up here and it was just like we always knew well it was only be a little bit of time I was going to be up here I didn't know how long all I knew is I was like two and a half years that's a while I know it is a while I was like what I know is I believe this guy is gonna be the biggest podcaster in the world when I sent you that snapchat when it was like under a hundred subs and I was like Dude, you're gonna be the next big thing. I can't believe you're not bigger. This is wild and I send you that and you're like Thanks underscore tea But I did turn the phone around to my mom,

like, get a load of this idiot. Yeah, yeah. And I remember that thing, because I remember when I first heard you, it was one of those rare moments where I've never experienced it, where I was like, I was listening to something which I thought was way bigger than it should be.

And I was like, what the heck? I was like, I remember I went to your page twice looking at the subscriber account. I was like This is so bizarre. It wasn't as big as it should be. Yeah Yeah, what do you think I said? You said it's way bigger than it should be. I only had a hundred subs No, it was over here like oh, no, no, no, it should have been way bigger. And you know, we obviously have told the story of what we met in the Lex Friedman comment section and...

You want to tell that story for people out here? We can repeat that one. Yeah, we can repeat that. So essentially, I had started my podcast at the time and it was like 2020 and I was just getting... I knew about Joe Rogan, the Lex Friedmans, all these people. And I was like, all right, Lex Friedman had a post about some equipment. And I was like, yo, what's your equipment?

Even though I knew there was a zero chance he was gonna answer, but I just put it out there and lo and behold, Julian Dory sent me a freaking message being like, I got you fam and sent me 20 messages with the exact image and the actual link to each equipment I need for a podcast started. And I was like, dude, this guy is so generous. I'm gonna give him a courtesy lesson.

So I remember. A courtesy lesson. So I remember it, because I was like, you must be a podcast. Let's check out and listen to it. And I'm like, dang, this guy's real. He's honest. Like he's got opinions

that aren't fricking from the mainstream. Just they're formulated. And then that's when we started going back and forth. And then I remember six months later in June, you were like, hey dude, you know, you've been following this thing. And I'm like, yeah man, I'm gonna ride your coattails. Like whatever you need, I'm gonna help you.

And you're like, yeah, when there's the time for a producer, whatever that looks like. And you know, at this time we're talking, you're making negative bucks a month and I'm broke, you're broke. And we're just like, ah, we'll figure it out. We're gonna figure it out. He's like, when it comes time to that, we'll figure it out.

And then, you know, we had a couple of dates lined up and you know, we were like, we gotta push them off a little bit. We're not quite there yet. And then eventually in February 20, it was no, it was- January, 2023. January, 2023, but even before the November of 2022, I'm like, dude, I'm, you dude, I'm gonna come up at some point.

It's gonna be sooner. And then it was January. I'm like, dude, I'm gonna be there next month. And you were like, I remember you freaking out thinking. No, you were like, I'm here. It's like, what? You're like, dude, I'm not in a position. Dude, I'm still not there.

I'm still in my parents' basement. Dude, I haven't worked it out. We're getting there, but we're not there yet. And I was like, dude, I believe in this. Like, it's now or never. That was my mentality. It's now or never, we gotta make this happen. Like, I'm going all in.

And at the time, my wife now, she was my girlfriend. She's the one that's not a big fan of the Northeast, just due to the cold, she has horses. She's just not the biggest fan. It's hard. It's a kind way of putting it. It's hard for her to work out in the winter with the winds and all that.

Yes. We understand that. Shout out to Emily for coming up here and grinding that out for two and a half years. Yes, shout out to my wife. I very much appreciate that. For supporting that. And I told her, I'm like, hey, there's a job up there

that isn't paying much right now, but it's gonna be something and it's gonna work out. You know, if you believe in me, let's make it happen. If you don't, I totally understand. I'd love if you'd come and she rallied with me and I was like, wow. And obviously when we first got up there, that's when everything started to kind of go south

for a little bit of time. But it was like, I don't know, maybe it was this relentless, but also idiot stubbornness and belief where I was like, it's gonna work out. I just knew it. I don't know what it was. It was just, there was never a doubt.

I'm like, this thing is gonna take off. It's just a matter of when. I would love it to be sooner, but it wasn't sooner than I thought, but it was gonna take off. And then you'd have all the little hints like, yeah, I ate ramen last night. I did get a meal in yesterday.

I'm like, I understand. Yeah. Yeah. Eat one more for two more, two more days ration. Yeah, I remember. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I worked a lot of odd jobs that year.

And then, you know, obviously it started to take off and we had some low points, but it was, it was always this undeniable belief where I was like, speaking to existence, whatever you want to call it. I just knew I'm like, we're going to wake up one day and it's going to be like, speak into existence, whatever you wanna call it. I just knew I'm like, we're gonna wake up one day and it's gonna be the biggest show. I just knew it. It was just about time and just giving it, having patience, having patience for what it was gonna be.

And then, obviously we had the low points, then we had high points. It was kinda like this. People say you grow up and down. It went fricking down and then it went back up, luckily. And then, you know, it got to the point where it was like the last few months when I was talking to Emily about this about making the move, I was like, you know,

Julian's starting to get in a very good place. Like we've really built this thing. And that's when we started having the conversations of, and you know, where she was like, I can't do another winner here. And I'm like, just hold on just a little bit, a little bit longer. Like we gotta see this, I have to see this through.

She has a dart board with my face on it. No, no, no, no, no. She has immense respect for you, immense respect. I appreciate that. And you know, as soon as I saw where I was like, you know, when I came up here, I think you were at 200,000 subscribers. I don't remember.

It was something like that. It like, you know, when I came up here, I think you were at 200,000 subscribers. I don't remember. It was something like that. It was January 2023. It would have been at about 300. I think we were at like 340, 350ish. 350ish. And then it was, you know, the last few months where it was just we had great guests, great conversations.

The views were translating to what they should be in my eyes where I was like, dude, I think I finally got you to a point, not like you needed me, I should say, but got you to a point where I'm like, dude, he's taken off so much that we've created these systems in place where I'm like, he's, he's bound to be successful if I were to be removed from the equation in an in person capacity. Right? Yeah, doing this. Exactly. And then, you know, that's when we entertain the idea of going back to Florida, being in the sun, which we love to do, and I don't hate New Jersey. I think New Jersey has many great aspects to it

that I love. The winners are turned up here. We've heard them. We've heard them. We got them. The food's unbelievable. I have nothing but good things to say other than the winners suck.

That's it, that's all I have to say I love it up here. So we got 75% that works. Yeah, 80 we'll call 80. Okay, he's good. He's good. Um, So yeah, and then it translated and obviously, you know, we started doing better and you know You got me to a point where I could buy my first home, you know That's credit to you because it's like you did that yourself, bro Well, you you're the one helping me make it happen, but it was crazy to think I was literally at one point pinching pennies and being like,

Em, it's gonna be okay. We're gonna work out, trust me. And then it translates over where I was just like, it was the undeniable belief in my faith and my faith in being a Christian and all that. I was like, Lord, I know Julian's gonna go places. I don't know when it's gonna be, but I believe it's gonna get there. And then Jesus was like yo that motherfucker's a heathen. Nope, not today! But you know I say all that with just the whole story of

like you know coming up here where I was you know where I was in my life you know graduating with a pre-med degree that I planned not to use and just like, all right, what am I gonna do with my life work? I can't believe you were gonna be a doctor. That's wild. Yeah, I was gonna be a doctor. The whole pre-med degree was gonna do the MCAT, all that stuff.

And then I was like, dude, after failing O chem seven times, probably not a great idea. So then I was pivoting in that time in my life where I was just, I think many young people are where they're just confused, they're not sure where they wanna go. And I took a chance on an industry that is really still not even a career path per se

for many people, it's unless you wanna commit your whole life to it, which you were doing. And I gravitated towards that. And I just wanna thank you so much for giving me that opportunity when so many people could have filled that seat where it could have been anybody. And I've always thought like,

all right, I'm gonna do something so extreme and out of the box. And my parents are right now questioning who they had as a kid and where he was going. And whatever it is, I'm gonna give 110% forward with. And I've tried to do that day in and day out. And I've been- You've done that. I appreciate that. And it's great to see. forward with and I've tried to do that day in and day out.

You've done that. I appreciate that and it's great to see and as we've always had in the back of the mind where it's like I always love doing my thing which you've always encouraged. I don't know how these other podcasters or social media influencers or whatever you wanna call have been with other employees of wanting

to do their own thing but you've been nothing but supportive of that which is cool. I've heard some other employees of wanting to do their own thing, but you've been nothing but supportive of that, which is cool. You know, then I, you know, I've heard some things on the internet with horror stories of that where it's like, how dare you? You're you're taking away your name. Like, I'm not paying you this or that. We've always been like, yeah, bro, do it. And I've always saw it as like, man, I'm sorry, show here.

Yeah, I'm like, bro, I'm trying to be the Robin to your friggin Batman. Come on, like, yeah, that's that's great. Listen, I don't wanna lecture people or whatever, but like, are you kidding me? Like when your people are working in a creative capacity for you, the job means you gotta come up with shit and figure out shit.

And to me, what better way to do that than also having your own shit that you can do that through. And I remember when you began doing that, it was still like we were coming out of that period. And we were so like relying on each other 24-7 to just be working. I was like, can he wait like three, four months to do this? And I was like, no, no.

That is exactly what you don't say. I'm like, he needs to go fucking full bore into this and get it going. You started doing all those videos where coming up on the election like that summer where you're asking people like who they're voting, the content was incredible too. It was like man on the street stuff. And as I saw that coming along, it was really, that was exciting for me because it's like damn,

I just started myself in a room somewhere in my parents' house with no idea what the fuck I was doing and here we are at this point, you know, four, four and a half years later, and now someone who's working with me can start to build a platform through this. It's like the coolest little tree growing, and hopefully there's more roots coming out as well

beyond people, even beyond you. But yeah, I... Especially when it works so well with all the shit that we are both interested in as well. Like are you kidding me? It's perfect. All the conversations we have, like we're talking about now, Prince and Diana. You did a documentary on Luis Navia.

Yeah, Luis Navia, the OG, like all these things where it's like it's all interconnected. And it's so funny, because we've talked about the idea of like the Julian Dory brand, you know, off of it, what comes off of it. We've talked about how we love Vice and unfortunate, it's, you know, it's dead in many ways. It's not what it used to be.

It's not what it used to be. And it's like, man, well, I love doing these types of documentaries where I do these investigations. The things I talk about are what you freaking love to talk about too. And it was just like one and one. And then it was like, maybe I should just take clips from this podcast because I need primary sources.

Oh my God, he's talking to the greatest drug smuggler of our time. And he'll do. Yeah, I'm like, oh, I don't need to look anywhere else. It's right there. So it was just hand in hand and I'm like, man, not the, what's the word, the connection, the being able to, what's the good word? Symb good word, symbiosis, whatever that is, yeah.

The connection with it. Spell it. Spell it, no. And I was like, dude, it just works hand in hand where it's like, you know, as much as like my channel is like Alessi Alman, I'd see it more than anything, also an extension of this podcast. It is. You know, almost all the videos

I reference this podcast, I just put it in there, because I'm like, you know, this is where I learn stuff, and I also just do deep dives in certain areas, and I just make it a doc, and I've always been like, you know, that's cool to me, you know, that's why goodbye forever, that's not what's happening here. You know, I wanna be as part of this as long as possible,

because I've just always, I love it, I enjoy it. And I'm like, I don't mind, you know, hopefully you don't mind, right? I'm riding your coattails, like I enjoy it. I don't mind, I love it. And that's the other thing, that was like, when you brought this up, it was like kinda cute. He was so nervous when he called me to be like, he's moving.

And again, I thought that call was coming, because the call came in the middle of March. I thought that call was coming nine months before. So now we were like at a point, I'm like, damn, this is overdue. I'm really glad we got like extra nine months. But he was so, he thought I was like gonna flip out or something.

But the only thing I wanna know is I'm like, you don't wanna leave all the way, right? You still wanna do content, right? You're like, oh, fuck yeah. I'm like, oh, yeah. Yeah leave all the way, right? You still want to do content, right? You're like, oh, fuck yeah. I'm like, oh, yeah. Yeah. All right, we're good. Yeah, no, do that all day. Whatever you want, whatever you need. And it was so seamless, and like this process has been great

because I realized, I remember like that day, I was calling everyone, including you, just like, oh, fuck, this is really happening. And then the next day, I'm like, once we had talked about like the content stuff, I'm like, oh, fuck, this is really happening. And then the next day, I'm like, once we had talked about the content stuff, I'm like, oh, so basically, we're just adding someone to do the in-person production. Pretty much. This is easy.

Yeah. Because you're so good at, like, you guys out there, we have five channels, we really have four. The fifth one's like a test channel that, you know, we just put some shorts on. But the main channel that you're watching right now does the full episodes. The second channel does eight to 20 minute clips, mid clips. The third channel does one hour podcast episodes. Every time we do an episode, it's three hours or whatever. So there's three podcasts in there.

And then the fourth channel does shorts. Alesi, at this point now is the guy on channel two and channel three. So the mid clips channel and the one hour podcast channel and the amount of like intellectual data that goes into that to know how to run those things and figure out the system and help promote the show, which is what it does. It ties us into the algorithm is incredible. And the stuff that you have come up with, especially since last September, that was like last August, September

is when you really figured something, I could see it, I'm like going through YouTube studio, I'm like, oh shit, look what he's doing. It's amazing and it's not really, you know, it's not, it's not, if I went to replace it, it would take a year for someone to really learn. And it would require you teaching them too, to really learn that.

So that's amazing that you figured that out. And that's why I was like really excited that you're like, I love doing this. And we had had a conversation in January, where I was already thinking like, damn, I gotta get someone, I gotta get him training someone because they're gonna be way behind on this shit. They're not gonna be able to figure this out and you're like no no I I was like yeah

my goal is to have you not having to do clips by the beginning of 2026 and you're like no no no I love doing this I was like yeah what you love all right that's cool and now you know it works and like I think it's it this basically like you also lived on Mars Let's be honest. You lived an hour and a half away So every time that we recorded like any day we had a recording the whole day was shot As you had to come out here, we sometimes record for six hours, whatever So we're doing that two to four times a week, you know This now frees you up To continue to do this shit and also build your own channel and be able to work from home Live in a place you love and come up here whenever you want

I wish I will be with which for good stuff that's happening and you're basically like running You're like the guy. I mean you're doing the same thing. You're just not doing this, but exactly Yeah, I just want to make that clear to people like you talk to a less He follows channel and all that and and, when you're watching the stuff we do, he's still the guy running point on all that behind the scenes. You've also helped me like, as you know, a lot of new, as you start to whack out some weeds,

new weeds pop up. So all these new hats that didn't exist a year ago now exist. I gotta take on some of these, which means I gotta hand off some of this. And I've been, it's been like, the last two years has been you and me just doing this. Me being like, oh, I gotta go on some of these, which means I gotta hand off some of this. And I've been, it's been like, the last two years has been you and me just doing this. Me being like, oh, I gotta go pick this up.

Can you lift this up? Go. And like, you figured it out every time. And that finding someone like that is very, very hard, especially at the beginning. And like, of course it was gonna be you. There was no one else that was gonna be. I didn't have any other candidates when we're Talking back in 2021. I was like this kid's perfect because by the way when I was I

Never ever did this like I was so locked in working when I was building But Chas Sirvino had left behind a joint and I had had like the craziest fucking week in December 2020 when I hit that Lex Friedman comment section post. But when I hit that comment section, like I'm gonna answer this guy and take whatever, so I was like, stone is a goat. And I remember answering that, and then you were like, oh wow, thank you,

I'm gonna give you a courtesy follow. And then, and a courtesy listen. And I went and listened to your podcast that you were doing on the side in college. I remember I listened to the episode with the chef. Oh my god episode 7 the money. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, and he's like any and you know You were like so curious about what's happening in this kitchen in Santa Cruz. I'm like this guy's fucking great This guy could be on the team. Oh, yeah, we've come so far and there was so much but I'm serious like there was so much

There that I'm like damn that's like kind of fortuitous and then it all kind of it was never planned It just kind of worked out and and we got to this point and you know I think on a lot of a lot of YouTube channels and a lot of places I'm not calling people out and doing this but like people don't see the people behind the scenes that make it happen I got the list No, but seriously like I people people need to see that and know that because like I did this pretty much alone for three years and then You hit the ground running. Yeah, we you can see the numbers where we've taken off since then on every channel

I mean this shows a lot more than doubled since then like a lot I think it's like quadrupled so thank you for making that happen and we'll we'll keep some when you come up here we'll do some content to do some stuff on patreon and all that up on the double D yeah absolutely but it's an exciting time this by the way DEEF you know I can introduce yourself to everyone they've already heard you on some episodes but it's great to have you on board, bro. Great to be here. Honored to be here. Yes.

And excited to be here. All right. We're gonna have fun. Yeah. Deep is, uh, we go way back and when Deep was like, yo, I would totally do this. I was like, what? But it makes all the sense in the world because, you know, this guy's like an incredibly talented script writer actor the whole bit. You got a play going off this summer in New York, off Broadway, this guy's like an incredibly talented script writer, actor, the whole bit.

You got a play going off this summer in New York off Broadway, Sacco & Benzetti that you wrote and starring. It's phenomenal, by the way. It's like an R-rated comedy play. Great. Highly recommend if people are in town in July to come see that. But, you know, like, this is now... You come do this with me like three times a week or whatever. You live right here. We can build creative shit together.

You can also have time to go do all your creative shit, not have to worry about paying the bills. Like suddenly I was like, damn, I should have thought of this earlier. It makes all the sense in the world. Yeah. And with that being said, I'm, I too, very grateful for this opportunity to be here and, you know, keep this train rolling, you know I'm gonna be I'm gonna be the guy now with the scully cap just like we gotta put more coal in the fire No, it's cool. It's cool to see things grow and get to the next level but

We really dug into a lot of this deeply with john next level, but we really dug into a lot of this deeply with John. So I'm going to leave that to that episode. And then maybe we'll even repost some of that on the channel as well, because John did a really amazing job, I think, kind of going through that with us. So that link's down below. But I also wanted to do something here to, to thank you. And, you know, we're just continuing the journey at this point. Yeah, you just get some better weather.

I appreciate it. I was surprised when you're like, we're gonna do the journey at this point. You just get some better weather. I appreciate it. I was surprised when you were like, we're gonna do a podcast. I'm like, what? I'm like, bro, you wanna go like Eric Prince, all these guys, and then you wanna throw me in there? I was like, are we sure this might hurt the channel more than it does God?

I'm early, I'm early. That's all I'm saying. I'm early. I would have loved to have Tommy G at 10,000 subs. So I'm early, but keep doing what you have Tommy G at 10,000 subs. So I'm early. But keep doing what you do. Thank you so much, brother. It's been great developing a relationship with you. Thank you to your wife, Emily, in all seriousness. You know, we joke about you guys not wanting to live in Jersey and all that, but to come up here and do that both of you

for two and a half years to support this thing is, it's kind of unbelievable. So I don't think any, I don't know if people have ever done something that nice for me. So thank you. Thank you. All right, everyone. Well, you'll be seeing a less year round. Thanks for listening to this one.

Welcome to DEEF. Let's get this fucking shit rolling. Everybody else, you know what it is. Give it a thought, get back to me. Peace. Thank you guys for watching the episode. If you haven't already, please hit that subscribe button and smash that like button on the video. it is, give it a thought, get back to me. Peace!