Julian Dorey Podcast - #322 - Death Investigator on Kohberger Idaho 4 Crime Scene & Epstein COVERUP | Joseph Scott Morgan

Episode Date: July 23, 2025

SPONSORS: 1) HelloFresh: Go to https://hellofresh.com/JULIAN10FM and get *10 FREE MEALS* w/ a Free Item for Life! (***TIMESTAMPS in description below) ~ Joseph Scott Morgan is a Forensics Expert, Author, TV personality & JFK Investigator. His book, “Blood Beneath My Feet” is considered by many the greatest forensics memoir ever written. PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/JulianDorey JOSEPH's LINKS - IG: https://www.instagram.com/josephscottmorgan/?hl=en - X: https://x.com/JoScottForensic - JOSEPH'S BOOK - https://www.amazon.com/Blood-Beneath-My-Feet-Investigator-ebook/dp/B008D30KRY?ref_=ast_author_dp - BODY-BAGS PODCAST: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/body-bags-with-joseph-scott-morgan/id1587763116 FOLLOW JULIAN DOREY INSTAGRAM (Podcast): https://www.instagram.com/juliandoreypodcast/ INSTAGRAM (Personal): https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey/ X: https://twitter.com/julianddorey ****TIMESTAMPS**** 00:00 – Joseph Background, Death Science, Award-Winning Book 12:00 - Joseph's moment w/ Mother of Idaho Victim 18:33 – Delivering News, Victim Empathy, Grief Barrier 28:00 – Urban Fire, Sharp Injuries, Idaho 4, Food Delivery 51:42 – Kill Labeling, Kohberger Method, Knife Sheath 01:01:47 – Teaching Fear, DNA Labs, Golden State Killer 01:12:31 – MJ Cremation, Historical Lessons, Forensics Future 01:19:39 – Kohberger Wrap-Up, Demolished House, Dateline 01:30:48 – Crime Scene Tours, Time Pressure, What’s Normal 01:46:54 – Kohberger Getaway, Missed Victim?, Drive-Bys 01:55:51 – Charges, Family Rights, Case Trouble 02:12:13 – Incel Theory, Violence Rise, Diagnosis 02:24:45 – Driving Factors, Idle Hands, Chapin’s Mom 02:38:42 – Epstein, Jail Cell, Unanswered Forensics 02:57:12 – What Epstein Case Means 03:10:05 – Joseph's Work CREDITS: - Host, Editor & Producer: Julian Dorey - COO, Producer & Editor: Alessi Allaman - https://www.youtube.com/@UCyLKzv5fKxGmVQg3cMJJzyQ - In-Studio Producer: Joey Deef - https://www.instagram.com/joeydeef/ Julian Dorey Podcast Episode 322 - Joseph Scott Morgan Music by Artlist.io Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I don't think that we understand the depth of how violent this was. It was like the Grim Reaper. After killing four people, the first thing I thought is that this was f***ing motivated. We were probably dealing with some kind of disaffected, angry boyfriend. Obviously this individual knew where Maddie hung her hat. She's been killed, Ethan's been killed, now he's going to try to get out. As he is walking down the hall, he looks right at Dylan. That's when she sees this, bushy eyebrows.

And that was a damning bit of information. The question is, why didn't he kill Dylan? Well, this food delivery driver who had dropped Xana's food at approximately 4 a.m., she said in a later statement that she looked over and she saw Cobra out there. She's lucky, I think, to actually have survived as well. We're talking about a grown man that is a h*** junkie that studied criminology, you know, retrospectively. You look back at this and this is really, really dark stuff. Hey guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and

leave a five star review. They're both a huge, huge help. Thank you. One of my favorite podcast guests of all time in the building today on short notice, we got this flight like 36 hours ago, Joseph Scott Morrican. Welcome back my friend. Thanks, bubble. How are you doing? I'm doing great. I'm doing great. It is always very special for me to see the people who were there like along the way. The first time you were with me was episode 146

in my parents' house. That was like April. I think we recorded that April, 2023. So I was still there. And then you came back and did what ended up being two podcasts, 170 and 17 171 one of the first recordings we did in here that for my money is the best Homicide breakdown like the facts around that aspect of it of the JFK case that I have ever heard in my life I don't know that I will ever be able to top that Oh in a podcast in here

So highly recommend people to go back to the library and check that out. But it is great to talk with you. You're the man and you are also the man on literally every channel talking about every case that comes up no matter what it may be. So for people that did not see episode 146 and somehow have not seen you on every channel or all over social media, what is your background? My background is I started out, I'm a native New Orleanian and I claim New Orleans as my hometown and I started down there with a coroner's office when I was very young, far too young to be doing the job that I was doing, but got thrown into it.

And back during the wild wooly 80s when crack was first hitting the street. And so I got, I got baptized pretty quickly and By crack? Well, as yeah, as, as, as luck would have it, I guess. Well, luck for me, not so much luck for others. Get a spoon out. Get a lighter. No, you had to learn really quickly back then.

And I worked on a staff of there were only three investigators for my jurisdiction period. And so the two guys that I worked with at the time were both, they had an affinity as my grandpa used to say for pulling the cork. So I was a young guy and they were like, Hey, can you cover for me? And I wound up covering for them all the time. And there's an old adage in medicine that says see one, do one, teach one. And I really wound up doing that. And then plus I was working at the morgue

at the same time as a deaner, which is an old German term for servant of the dead, which means that I was participating in the dissection of the bodies as well. So I would spend time in the morgue learning about forensic pathology, working with some really good forensic pathologists that were willing to tolerate me and ask my questions.

And then I was working as an investigator at night. And then after I was there for just over half a decade, I got offered the position of senior investigator with the medical examiner in Atlanta and went on to be there for, I don't know, 14, 15 years and came through really dark time in my life relative to, had seen far too many dead bodies because that's all we do in my field, medical, legal death investigation. And my therapy turned out to be going into academia and I've now been, believe it or not,

I've been in academia now for 21 years. Whoa. Yeah, I know. So I've had quite the long career, but I started very, very young and here I sit now. I get to come to Hoboken. So there you go. And I love it. Love seeing my man up here and so proud of everything you've done

Thank you so much. Yeah, and it's and and the feeling is mutual But you know you you also wrote what's considered like the preeminent book Yeah, a death investigator ever wrote blood beneath my feet award-winning book back in 2013 something like that is 12 I yeah, I wound up winning An award It was 12. I wound up winning an award called Georgia Author of the Year. And the reason that was special to me is because looking back, it was kind of validation because I had a lot of people that were in true crime back then, as true crime as it was back then It's not the same as it is now

They would say I don't want to I don't want to hear about his depression And you know, I wrote the book from the perspective of of death as my companion because perspective of death as my companion, because every case that I went on was unique, and I talked about the struggles I was dealing with. You know, everybody wants to hear about the gore, and that's what I always say,

that people want to rub up against it just enough so that the smell doesn't get on them. And I lived with the smell, and I lived in that environment, and I put it down in words, and it's actually actually that award is the first award that Pat Conroy won who wrote Prince of Tides and Lords of Discipline which is one of my favorite books and The Great Santini and he was

southern author and it used to be called of all things I guess I'll get canceled for saying this the Dixie Writers Award is what it was originally called but I won that award. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So there you go. But yeah, I won it Georgia author of the year.

And, and it's interesting. You should say that because when that happened, that's when the media came calling and it was this weird set of circumstances and it happened to be the Jodi Arias case, they saw that I'd won an award. Somebody at CNN said, Hey, we need a medical examiner. I'm not a medical examiner. I'm a medical legal death investor. I'm the eyes and the ears.

Well, would you be willing to come on? And that started this journey that I've been on now with the media since, I don't know, 2013, I guess. And I never say no. Yeah, you're good at that. Like I said, we turned this around very quickly. Yeah, yeah. You're that dude. I said, that we turn this around very quickly. Yeah, you're that dude. But, you know, for people that just to understand, I guess, the, I

guess, the order of business here, so they can picture exactly what you did, you have the coroner on one hand, who's a doctor, right, who examines the body you mentioned, and you've talked about in previous episodes where, you know, you would go train with them and be a part of that, but you're not the coroner. And then you're the death investigator on the scene. So you are basically like that level, the detectives who run the case are the detectives

who are actually putting together all the evidence. You're the guy who's collecting, you're focused on specifically the evidence at the scene and what happened there to tell the story so the detectives can do their job. Right. And I'm focused on the body. Detectives come and go. And you'll see them, they'll rotate through.

Medical legal death investigators pretty much stay. We're there, we inhabit that world. So we'll get some young detective that will come through. And maybe they were a robbery detective or burglary or literally pawn shop detectives, which is a thing. I've seen them all. And then they think they want to be homicide detectives. They'll come in. And it generally takes to really be a good homicide detective.

It's going to take you about three years to get trained up to the point. So by the time they get trained up to that point, they want to go sit for the sergeant's exam. Well, if you do that, you're going back in uniform. So it's hard many times to retain detectives, but we're as medical legal investigators, we're in that space all the time. We inhabit it and then we'll have detectives that will come up. So, you know, the young ones like, Oh, I remember this now. It's like, so, uh, what do we do now? You know, it's like, and I, but my focus is the body. I'm the eyes and the ears of forensic pathologist on the scene because contrary to what you see on television, they don't,

forensic pathologists who are highly trained physicians don't come out to scenes unless it's something that is so, that is so vast relative to numbers. Many times that dictates it. If you have a mass casualty event, sometimes they'll come out for those some complex homicides, but most of the time you're not going to see them. So everything that you're doing, and this is the most important part is it is completely independent of what the police are doing.

We don't work for the police. We conduct a separate investigation and we're applying science at the scene. I got to tell you, I, everybody goes on and on about seeking justice and all these things. That's really easy to say, not interested in justice. That's not, no, no, that's, that's down the hall say, not interested in justice. You're not. No, no, that's down the hall and to the left. That's not my department.

My department is the science surrounding the bodies. Now, anybody can take the data that we generate and apply it however they wish. It's objective scientific data. And then you testify to that in many cases. Absolutely, and you just try to, and I get along with defense attorneys as well as I do prosecutors. You have that in many cases. Absolutely. And you just try to, and I get along with defense attorneys as well as I do prosecutors.

You have to in our world. We're not there, you know, I'm not there to, it's like if somebody in my field ran out into the median in some highway and snatched the radar gun out of a state trooper's hand. Well, that ain't my job. I'm gonna wind up in bracelets too for doing that. But in the same breath, they don't do what I do.

And you know, it's just, it's a life lived with the dead. One of the things that I do not like to have to think about is my food throughout the week. You've heard me talk about that before on the podcast, but I'm constantly doing things to try to make this show go. And the idea of having to cook meals every single night and think About something different or making things from scratch no good for me, especially in the summer

Like I'm trying to go outside and enjoy it like everyone else even work out there sometimes So anything that's stopping me from doing that is a drag and that's where hello fresh comes in with hello fresh You can make your summer both enjoyable and delicious by getting the number one meal kit as voted by USA Today's readers. HelloFresh makes it easier to fit quick home cooked meals into your schedule every week by curating delicious recipes right to your door like panko crusted chimichurri barramundi or sun dried tomato grilled cheese sandoes as well as over 100 seasonal snacks, sides, and treats. Also, this summer HelloFresh has made it even easier to enjoy delicious, healthy,

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for 10 free meals and a free item in every box. Once again, Hellofresh.com slash julian10fm. You're gonna get one per box with an active subscription. Free meals are applied as a discount on the first box. New subscribers only. Varies by plan. No Frills delivers. Get groceries delivered to your door from No Frills with PC Express. Shop online and get $15 in PC Optimum Points on your first five orders. Shop now at nofrills.ca. We got you in here right now. Obviously, there's always cases going on, so it's always going

to be a good time to bring you in. But part of the reason we turned this around quickly is because we are coming up on the Coburger sentencing. So this episode, I think I'm going to put this out like a day before, because that's happening next week. 23rd. That's sentencing and everything. So, obviously most people out there are gonna be familiar with the Idaho Four

and this college murder that happened that now Coburger, Brian Coburger has admitted to and pled guilty in exchange for a deal. We'll go through all that and we'll go through the case. But I do want to play something that I played the last time you were here when we did episode 170 and 171. Because I think people should see this just to show how you handle these things. Ethan Chapin's mom showed up at, I think it was Crime Con. Crime Con, yeah, Orlando.

In Orlando in late 2023. You did not know this obviously. No. But you were up on stage in front of thousands of people giving a presentation on various cases that included at the time the Idaho Four, because that was a year after the murders. And I just, I want people to see this because, you know, we were talking a few minutes ago

about all the different people that sometimes forget what's on the other side of these cases, which is a real world thing. And the gravity that needs to be taken with that. And I feel like you did a pretty amazing job here just letting this happen. Good job. Oh, is it a little ad right before? Sorry, this isn't on YouTube. This is on an article link right here.

So we've got about 20 seconds. But there were four just while we have a minute here, there were four total victims. Ethan was one of them. The Consolvas girl was another one. Morgan, Mogan, and then... Mad was another one. Morgan, Morgan, and then Maddie, Morgan, and then Zana. Zana Curnodle. Right. So again, we'll go through that whole thing, but we got it now. Go ahead. So she did a Q and A and she walked up to them. This is at the end of my talk.

I had no idea this is coming. And I actually didn't sit through it because it's too hard to watch, but I do want all of you to know that these were four of the greatest kids and that all of the great things that you read about them is legitimately true. And I can speak on behalf of my own son who was an incredible human. And we miss him all terribly. But it's a very strange situation to be a not actually not a true crime follower. But I am now thrust into the epicenter of something

that has become pretty incredible. But anyways, don't forget these kids. I appreciate I did watch the beginning where you spoke a little bit on behalf of all four kids and they truly, they're amazing. They were amazing, amazing kids in the prime of their life. So that's all I just, thank you. Yeah, I just, I don't know, like you could see it. I'm sure people can see it on the camera

there you were pretty shocked when she walked up but really gave her a chance to say what she needed to say which is also like the part people can't forget here. So many times we make these cases about the vicious killer because we're so fascinated by how evil they are and whatever but you you, it's not even like you're keeping score or something. I don't want to say it like that, but people get lost in the facts of the grisliness of the case that they don't take the temperature of the gravity of the situation. And in this case, kids that were cut down when they were 20 years old, which is just horrific on every level. Yeah, it is, and you can't take the measure of it most of the time.

And that's a thread that runs through all of these cases, not just the Idaho Four, but what people don't see, particularly as it applies to practitioners, is the fact that once you're done at the scene, processing the scene and collecting all of the evidence and having the remains removed and getting ready to be autopsied, The next step in your job is to deal with families. And I spent, I'd say just as much time dealing with families as I did dealing with the dead. And what, you know, you look at this poor woman, what kind of explanation, what kind of comfort are you actually going to offer her?

There's nothing. There's not enough money in the world. There's not enough, you know, vacuous promises that you can make her that everything's going to be better. And here's something else that I want to dispel right now. Whoever came up, whatever wizard came up with the idea of closure is full of shit. Because closure, it's one of the biggest lies that has ever been propagated, I think, in the mental health community.

Because closure never happens. You think about these four kids. You know, the families are left behind. Where's the closure? Explain that to me. Can you tell me where are they actually going to get closure? Because there will always be an empty chair forever and ever. Amen.

There's nothing you can do to to assuage their grief. Nothing. And again I'll use this term multiple times. It goes to it goes to intellectual laziness I think. Intellectual laziness. Yeah and also dismissiveness when you use the term closure. Because if you say, well, this, hopefully this is going to offer you some measure of closure or hopefully someday you'll have closure. Okay. Next. Who's next. That way you've kind of shuffled them off. Yes. And it never goes away, you know in in my work When I was working as a death investigator, I still had parents. I had one guy

That for seven years he called me generally once a month and he was drunk and He he made a connection with me You know his son had hung himself. And I probably related the story previously. Yeah, 146, I remember. It pissed me off at first, but it's just part of it. They just want somebody to talk to.

And that's why I hate I hate that term closure Absolutely hate it and you know She's I can't speak for her maybe she will I hope she does I hope that but it to me it always seems this Fantastical kind of pie in the sky thing it is because we're trying to escape death and what happens to us with death. And it's just not that simple. It's never that simple. It's also, like you said, such a terminology academic kind of word. It is.

Closure. There's no emotion to that word. Do you think though that obviously this doesn't happen for everyone, especially when they lose Someone so close to them in such a horrific way, but do you think it's possible for people? Like Ethan's mother to eventually Get some level of peace Maybe yeah, and it's uh it's never I don't think that for any of these people that go through this They never have like a static day, right?

Where you know they've achieved This higher level of peace if you want to put it in the eastern terms. I don't think that that happens I think that it rises and falls With the tide there will be certain things that will you know have that moment in time where it triggers their brain whether it's seeing a toy in the house that that child once played with or maybe they're looking over old photographs or whatever. It could just be a change in the weather. You know, gee, my son used to like to sit out in the sun after a cold, blustery day.

Even if it was still cold outside, he would just welcome that opportunity. Well, it's those little things that no one can anticipate and it, it, it drags all that stuff back up in their mind. So yeah, there's never really any into it in, in my estimation, at least based upon my observations as a practitioner, I've never seen anybody actually achieve closure, certainly. Maybe some level of peace, but there's always that storm, this brewing right beneath the surface. Yeah.

It's just, one of the things that sticks out to me, I have these moments in here with different guests that some of them will just stay in your head for a long time, but when you told the story in episode 146 about, not even the story, it's just these stories of notifying people. We call it notifications. You just alluded to it a few minutes ago

where you have to tell people what's gonna be the worst day of their life, the worst possible news you could ever tell them. And you have to do it in a professional way. And you know that their life is never gonna be the same, but they're gonna get all these people to come around them afterwards, or we're gonna try to sell them this idea of closure.

And it's not your job to tell them to ignore those people because what the fuck do you say to someone that their their earth has been shattered? Yeah again I used to early on in my career I made the mistake of saying of saying early on, they're they didn't suffer, which makes me a liar. Out and out, because I know good and well that people suffered, but you can't bring yourself good and wealth that people suffered. But you can't bring yourself to tell somebody that. And you don't want to be over the top and ghoulish about it. And so just from my own, I guess, personal, I don't know, who I am as a person,

I got to the point where when that question was asked and it would inevitably be asked, did they suffer? I'd say, I don't know. I don't know that they did. And then they'll try to get you to give them another measurement relative to it. Did it take a long time for them to die? I don't know. I really don't. And that's really, and that's something that as humans,

we have to come to terms with individually. There is no one out there that can actually offer that information up to you and say specifically and truthfully that that's the amount of time that it took for somebody to die or that their pain centers were not firing after this point in time You there's no way to calculate that Okay, the best thing you can do is many times Just simply say I don't know. I just don't know. Instead of offering them these platitudes

to, again, it goes back to closure. It's the same thing. Well, they're in a better place or they're at peace now or they didn't suffer. Well, it's intellectually dishonest because you don't know just putting that information out there, what kind of ripple effect it's going to have in that individual's life moving forward and how they view death. Now you don't look at those sorts of things at that moment in time, but think about it just for a second. Because if there's ever another death that occurs in their life, based upon this fallacy that you've offered up to them, that's still a continuing untruth there. The other thing is though, you get thrown into it, like you said, very young, but also

trial by fire. You're in Atlanta and then later you're in New Orleans. You're in these huge city centers where there's cases all the time. And not that that makes it better, it's just like, it's more common for you to be walking in onto a grisly scene or something horrible, because there's just statistically a lot of them. And then you think about a case like what happened in Moscow, Idaho, you know, on the scene at the university where they found these kids.

And that's the one thing that I can't get out of my head. It's like all these police officers, all these initial first responders on there on the job, this is what they signed up for. These are the exact kind of situations they have to go to. But they're from a place where you don't see much of that. And so now they walk in on four kids. And if you don't mind, I would like you to take us through the scene and just what it was.

But you walk in on four young kids butchered. I mean, they were absolutely, it was the worst kind of ending that they could have had. And I think about all those people who went and saw that and how much, just as a human being, that even if that's their job, how much that had to extra fuck them up because they really weren't accustomed.

They'll never get past it. And I think that many people out there would say, they'll say, well, you eventually will. That's a load of crap. You're not gonna get past it. And look, it's one thing to walk into a crime scene and let's just take Idaho, for example, where you've got sharp force injury

that has been, sharp force injuries have been generated. It's one thing to walk in and you've got one body. But then it's really, it begins very quickly. You're taking a measure of what you're standing there looking at and all of a sudden it's four. And there's blood everywhere. I think people will labor under this idea that firearms related deaths are, you know, these big bloody events and, and they can be, and I've worked several that are

over the course of my career, but nothing ever matches multiple stab wounds. It's our sharp force injury because not all of the injuries are stab wounds. Some of them are incised wounds, which means slices. Yeah, that's why, like, for instance, our teeth are called incisors. It's an incised thing that cuts. So stab wounds, I'm going to go into teaching mode. Stab wounds are deeper and more narrow. Slices or shallow and longer.

So you have an edged weapon that can generate either one of those and also can be used as a bludgeon as well. You'll have people that are beaten with knives on the handle. I've worked those as well. But yeah, you'll have all manner of these. So when these police officers would have made initial contact and would have walked into

the scene, it would have been, I would imagine, it would have been taken, it would have been very hard for them to try to comprehend because once you come across the first body, which we don't really know yet because not all the info has been released, would have been Ethan and Xana, and they're on the second floor of the structure. And I can go into kind of a detailed description of the structure because the structure- Yeah, let's do that.

The structure is just bananas. So give this some context. If anyone's ever lived in a college town and you don't want to live on campus, there are all manner of these structures around the periphery of a campus that you can rent. All right. Yeah. And I did as well. And most of the time, I'm not going to say they're derelict in condition, but many times, I will. Yeah. Many times you go into these places and, uh, not, not are they, you know, college kids tend to be, you know, kind of messy. I'm not just talking about that. I'm talking about the structures themselves

because many times landlords, property owners, they'll do anything they can to squeeze another couple of people in because, you know, You're racking up money every month. So This structure it's actually on King Road off campus from University of Idaho Sit Originally, it was a two-story structure and it's built into a dirt bank Okay, so you think about having a big dirt bank? It's on the side of a hill and they kind of carve this thing out and build this house into it. It's a two story. You enter on what I refer to and it's what people have seen in the news. This image of there's a parking pad. It's kind of a gravel drive in the back. There's a rear entrance that that door actually had a keypad on it, like a security keypad.

Come to find out that a lot of people had the code for that door, because people come and go, you've got people that graduate, they leave, that sort of thing. So there's one occupant downstairs in that ground level or parking pad level entry spot. You go up an internal staircase and it kind of switches back goes up switches back and you're on the second floor landing. When it opens up into the second floor

landing there are two bedrooms up there. You've got this kind of a great room that opens into you know the flow of it where there's a fireplace, kind of a dining area, of course the kitchen and then down the hallway you've got two more bedrooms. Xana and her boyfriend, were in those rooms that night. There was one other roommate who actually is the person that, you know, identified the guy with a bushy eyebrows is what they kept talking about. And she was, was that Dylan? Yeah. Dylan was, was living on that floor.

Then down that hallway there is another stairwell that goes up and switches back to the top floor which is third story. Third story is an add-on. That's not something that was there originally. As a matter of fact a few years back I was actually on air, this is kind of fascinating, I was on air with the guy that was the former attorney general for the state of Idaho and the former, uh, he was also the former lieutenant governor. And he had been, he was an alum of the university of Idaho. He had actually been to that house when it was a two story structure because one of his fraternity brothers,

his son was going to school there and they'd gathered, you know, at homecoming, they all gathered, gathered together and he had been there. And I remember listening to him describe it, you know, that he had been there prior to the third floor being added. So let me go back to the second floor. I'm sorry if I'm all over the board, but it's kind of, it's a bit confusing. So the second floor, the one thing I didn't mention is that, you know, how I talked about the house is actually built into this bank. Well, there are some people call them sliding glass doors. Some people say sliders. There are these sliders that open out and you look out over this kind of rising field that slopes up away from the house

and there's a brush line up there in the back kind of forms a horseshoe and you can actually sit there and there's there are these there's a couple of shots the day the week of I think when they've got people out there working the scene of agents and they're from an unidentified agency. Also we have a great picture right there. Yeah, yeah, that's it. This is what you're describing. The second floor right there and you can actually see the sliders. Yep. So when you're looking down that hill and you're in the dark and you're back up the hill, that house looks like a burning flame in a cave. You can see everything that goes on

in those windows at night, and no one would know that you're there. It's a point of observation. You can surveil the area very easily. There's actually a parking area up above that. It's a cul-de-sac up there. You can't go anywhere else, but there's a parking area up above

and you could sit there in the brush line or even in a car and peer down through that kind of brushy area and see everything that was down there. And according to what we've heard, Matty Mogan's bedroom, which is where the two, Matty and Kaylee, were actually killed on the third floor. Why just survive back to school when you can thrive by creating a space that does it all for you, no matter the size?

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There's a real creepy factor to this. So if you use that hill descending down to the second floor where the sliders are, the sliders were commonly left unlocked. So there's no signs of forced entry at the scene, which obviously is something that we'd look for regularly. The two things you'll hear us say all the time, no signs of forced entry or struggle. We, you know what? Not once did we lock our downtown house at college.

I'm just thinking out loud about this. Like, I'd never thought about that, but we had, it was an old school house, weird setup like this. I actually lived in the attic, which would have been a top floor like that. Another bizarre kind of downtown college house. And we had, you know, like the breezeway door and then the regular door and that shit was unlocked 24 seven. Can I tell you something else that really set my teeth on edge about this case as a dad, as college professor professor and then as an investigator? former investigator

The girls did a tick tock and anybody can pull this up and it's done on the second floor and they're imitating one another on the second floor imitating one another on the second floor. Yeah. And they're imitating one another relative to their personalities, like, you know, level of, are they a neat freak or are they very, you know, uh, worried about school and they're, they're doing it. It's all done in fun, but anybody that wanted to see that, suddenly you have this view into their world that I don't know how else you would have that.

And it literally, and it's not real long, but it kind of spins around. You can see each one of these girls kind of doing their interpretation of their friends. And it's very chilling. So anybody that is watching on social media, they can see this. And particularly if somebody has already begun to target one of the individuals, they'd be really interested in seeing this because now they have the lay of the land. The house was known, allegedly, as a,

and I've really had a hard time, Julian, trying to verify this, because as you admitted, and as I will admit as well, if you live in these off-campus houses, you can say that, you know, well, it was a party house. Well, what does that actually mean? Does that mean that, you know, well, it was a party house. Well, what does that actually mean? Does that mean that, you know, people are kicking out windows, it's animal house, you know, people are just acting, you know, just crazy out of their mind all the time?

Or does that mean that we're just going to have solo cups and we're sitting out in the backyard drinking beers or mixed drinks or whatever the case might be, or smoking weed or doing whatever we do? I don I don't, I don't know, but they said that this place is a party house. And so you've got, according to what has been mentioned over a period of time, there were people circulating in and out of this place all the time. You, many times they wouldn't know who the people were that were coming and going. I had that experience in college. You know,

I think everybody that does that experience in college. I think everybody that lives in these off-campus dwellings does as well. So it's almost like a perfect recipe. You've got these young women that are occupying the space. They are in a position where the house is unsecured. They had no reason. I mean, you even painted the picture just a moment ago. And this is pretty insightful. Moscow, Idaho, they don't have violent crime at all. They hadn't had a murder in like eight years. It's been a very long time and it actually here's another interesting

aside something that came out and I can get into this later if you wish. The the food delivery driver. 4am. Yeah well you know they identified her and found out who she was who was she She was this lady that lived over in over, you know Pullman Washington, which is where Washington State is Is only ten miles away. She was from there too. She's from Washington. Yeah, Washington State and to say that Look for those that are watching and listening Depended upon the route you go. It's either eight or 10 miles away. It's really no big shakes. These things are so close together. This food delivery driver who had dropped Xana's food off to her at approximately

4 AM. Her husband, former husband was homicide victim in Moscow back in 2013. He had been shot. Yeah. He's like one of the few, and it's weird how the world kind of connects like that. Um, and she had talked about this in a, in an interview. I can go into some of the stuff, but she, um, she's had a hell of a time just trying to get her life on track. She's got, you know,

she deals with all kinds of medical issues and all kinds of things. And she got hooked up on, uh, driving under the influence charges. And that's how we found out who she was because when they're interviewing her, she says, I'm the food driver. I've got to testify and they're talking to her about her DUI back at Station House. And I'm going to be testifying in this trial coming up in July. And they were like, what trial are you talking about? You know, the four students that were murdered. I'm going to be... And so that's how that came out, courtesy of ABC on the Dateline, the Dateline program.

And so that's how we kind of came to this idea of who she was, but her husband actually had been a homicide victim in Moscow. And what are the odds? You know, what are the odds that the universe? Yeah, no, it's super bizarre. It's just absolutely mind blowing. So anyway, back to back to the structure, The structure itself, here's my thing. There is a basement too, right?

Yeah, there is a basement, and that's the first floor, the parking level. So some people will refer to that as the basement. Some people will say that that is first floor landing, and then they'll say it's a ground floor, and I've heard other people say the second floor is ground floor. And as you can see, they're totally different points of entry here. If they took you or I into a similar structure and turned off the lights,

okay. And we had not been in this place. I couldn't find my way around. It's riot proof. Yeah, it is just, it switches back on itself. It's these weird turns. And so my contention has been that whoever it was that perpetrated these crimes had to have some level of familiarity with this place and would have to have a certain level of comfort as well.

Almost an intimate comfort with it. I thought when I first, and I became, I think I did my first media appearance regarding this case the day after. It hasn't stopped since then. The first thing I thought is that this was sexually motivated. I thought that we were probably dealing with some kind of disaffected, angry boyfriend. I knew it was probably gonna be male because of just what they were saying about the savagery at this point in time, and that kept bubbling up all the while. And that these are knife injuries, um, and that whoever went through here, it was like the grim reaper.

Uh, there's, uh, copious amounts of blood that are deposited on multiple surfaces. It's a very dynamic environment, and the individual is moving through the house. So I thought that, well, obviously this individual has some, he knew where Maddie hung her hat, which was on the third floor. I don't think that the perpetrator expected to find Kaylee up there. She was just back visiting. She had already gotten a job.

Wait, she didn't live there? She had previously. As a matter of fact, her empty bedroom's down the hallway from Maddie's, and her bed's gone. So these two girls knew each other since they were tiny things. Yeah. I mean, they had grown up together. So they'd gone out that night, the night of the night leading up to the murders, which would occur, you know, at 4 a.m. the next morning or just after 4

a.m. going toward the 4 30 time period. They had been out that night, they had had drinks, they had eaten, there's the infamous food truck, you know, video that we have of them, and they were essentially sleeping in the same bed, which is not an unusual practice for them. Maddie had come back to show off her, well to, you know, tout the fact that she had gotten a job. She was excited. She was moving on. She had a brand new vehicle, which was like a Range Rover. Wait, Kaylee had come back.

I'm sorry, Kaylee. Kaylee. I said, Maddie, I apologize. Kaylee has come back. And she is wanting to be there with her friends and celebrate. I don't think the perpetrator knew that she was there. And so much for observational skills or tracking an individual. I don't think that they necessarily knew that Zana and Ethan were there. Yeah.

There was something where, if I remember this correctly, details are getting fuzzy, but obviously Coburger, as we now know, was a person who did it. He went upstairs, he kills, he kills Maddie Mogan. Yeah. And then obviously finds Kaylee there at the same time and kills her. Yes. And maybe it was Ethan walked out of the room or something. It was Xana. Xana actually, according to what we're hearing now,

and again, not all the data has been released, but according to what we're hearing now, Zana may have seen him on the staircase and come back to her room. So she proceeded up the staircase. She heard something probably upstairs, as you can imagine. And he came down the staircase, believed that Ethan was still in bed asleep.

Remember, Zana had been up and it took the food order. And that was like it, I don't know, 2, I'm sorry, 4, 04, I can't remember specifically when it was dropped off. But they would have passed one another or would have seen. And that's what the driver said. She said in a later statement, this driver that she looked over and she saw Coburger out there. And that was one of the linchpins, I think to all of this,

because it was not him outside of his car, not in the white Hyundai Elantra. Right. Well, saw him in his car. Right. Because he, there's video of him pulling up at four Oh five and she had just dropped off the food. So she, meaning she like passed the car and she saw him. And that was a damning bit of information that, you know, now we're, I don't know that we'll ever, you know, things not going to trial. So I don't know that we'll ever hear her full story. Hopefully we will. But you know that she's lucky, I think, to actually have survived as well. I'm sure, you know, reflectively, you know, thinking back, it would send a chill up any even most stalwart person is going to send to chill up your spine to think about what you were in proximity to, the hell that was gonna follow after that. The belief that Ethan was in bed,

still asleep perhaps, he stabbed multiple times. Zana has fought back. As a matter of fact, she's grabbed hold of the blade. From what we understand, she has cuts on her hand that go all the way down to the tendons. So and that's very common in sharp force entries where you're trying to fin somebody off you try to parry their their move you grab hold the blade and the blade is actually drug through the hands. So that's that's what they believe

had occurred and there's been one disturbing bit here. And I don't know what they actually mean. And this is, I want to say they, I mean, the news media has put this out there. They use the term carve relative to Ethan's leg, that his leg was carved. Now, as a guy that works in forensics, you're going to have to be more specific with me than, say, carve. Because carve, you know, for instance, there's an ongoing case in Atlanta I've been

covering now for, Lord, I guess two, three years now, a lady that was found in Piedmont Park along with her dog. And she was carved. She had, someone had taken a knife and carved the word fat into her stomach after just stabbing her multiple times and killing her pit bull in the park as well. And you know, that's a carving, okay? So what do these people mean when they say carved? And we don't have a lot of that information for me is, you know,

living in the world of forensic, uh, medical legal death investigation. I was particularly interested in the injuries and kind of the sequencing. If it could ever be sequenced. One of the things that I thought about early on is if they had found the knife, and I remember talking about this early, early on, Julian, you're making me think about all this stuff now. I thought that if there was any way that they could try to determine the sequencing

of who was stabbed or cut first. If you could find any remnant of DNA from the other victims on the victims, the preceding or the following victims. Yes. Almost like an inoculation where, you know, because there's not time to wipe a knife off. You're going to proceed through the house. And had had any of these individuals, particularly if we think it was Anna and Ethan, that they were stabbed last.

Was there any blood evidence off of Kayleigh or Maddie that had been introduced onto them as well? We don't have that information as well. So I was very curious about that. And that could go to sequencing from just a science standpoint. Because you would not find, for instance, on Kaylee and Maddie's body, you would not find Zana and Ethan's DNA or blood deposition on them. And that's one of the things I was thinking about earlier relative to this. But of course, as we all know,

the knife was never recovered. He left the sheath there though, right? Yeah, he did. So much with the sheath. And it was found essentially adjacent to Maddie. Now we have to Maddie. Okay. Now we have to go back. One of the things that there was evidence of

that the police have are these receipts from purchases that had taken place. And Coburger allegedly had purchased Dickie's coveralls. Now folks have never seen Dickie's coveralls. Now folks have never seen Dickie's coveralls. They are what they are. There you slip over them. It looks like something somebody in a garage would wear. They zip up right in the center. There's generally a pocket up top over the breast area and then you've got deep pockets on the side, but you don't have belt loops. And you would, with a base knowledge of forensics,

with a base knowledge of forensics, you would think, well, an individual would want this in order to create a barrier between themselves and any kind of DNA. You put gloves on over that. You put a balaclava on, which he allegedly has purchased several that cover, you know, only you can see the eyes essentially, the bushy eyebrows, now the infamous bushy eyebrows. And someone is proceeding through the house and they're kind of garbed out and all of this. But yet you don't have a way to strap this K-Bar USMC combat knife to your body because there are no belt loops. I had in my mind kind of worked out this idea why would you go to all this trouble and then drop the damn sheath?

Why would you do that? Well, if you're in some kind of frenzy, for instance, and it's not attached to your person, I have actually visualized this idea of him making entry into this room of maybe this young woman that he had targeted, that he was going to exact something from her that would satisfy him. Um, and very dramatically he's over her body and he unsheathes this thing and then drops the knife and then he goes to work and he's frenzied. I submit to you, he's in a heightened sexual frenzy and he goes to work and he's in such frenzy that he leaves that damn chief behind.

And it's kind of protected right there as grotesque as that is it's kind of protected any kind of evidence that's on there and that's some of the things that we look for. I mean can you imagine I'd love to hear a comment from the detectives about this. Was it like a eureka moment for them when they go to move her body and suddenly there's this epiphany before them where they've got the sheath but there's no knife. You know, and they're thinking at this moment, Tom, okay. Well, do any of these girls have any kind of combat knife experience? Would she have, would she have a K bar knife with USMC stamped on it? Odds are not. Uh, what if he was shocked? What if he got up and was shocked?

Cause Kaylee was there too? Perhaps. And he dropped. And he's confused. And there's any number of ways I think that you can work this out in your mind. I thought about the idea that he may have climbed onto the bed with them and he's there and he kind of unsheathes the knife and then crawls on top. However, the one thing that I had put forward from the beginning with this case is that I felt as though

that whoever perpetrated was going to be super saturated with blood. There's no way to get past it. I've worked in the morgue, all right, a long time. And I have, forgive me, I mean, I've been super saturated with blood over my surgical gown that I'm wearing because you don't change out. You go to the next case. At the end of the day, it's a bloody mess. Now you've got four, and these are not deceased individuals. These are individuals that have life.

They're reacting to pain and every time that knife is either inserted or they're slashed pain center is going to fire. And we just, just imagine for anybody that's listening to me right now, reflect upon anytime you've ever even nicked the tip of your finger, even a paper cut, How painful that is. Imagine having this steel driven through your body over and over. And this is a robust knife, my friend. And it's meant specifically for this, not what he purposed it for, but our troops, well our Marines, Coasties, and naval personnel have carried this

knife since before World War II. And, you know, the USMC had an entire field manual that was dedicated to the utility of the combat K-Bar knife where they would teach CQB with a knife going back years and years and years how to use this thing, its main purpose. And knives have been used for any number of reasons in the field with the military. But this knife was specifically used in order to do great bodily harm with it.

And, uh, it's a very robust weapon, very robust weapon. And then we've never recovered the actual weapon from him. We don't know where that is. No, I was in a discussion not too long ago. And, um, you know, if you go, if you try to go with the theory, which I don't know if it really holds water because there's a lot of people out there that will say that, well, he was a burgeoning serial killer. Well, first off, I would ask you about that supposition.

What proof do you have of that? Okay. Because anybody can say that. I do know this for a fact. He's a mass killer. All right. You get, I don't know, some people say two, some people say three, you get three or more and you're a mass killer at that point in time. That's what he is. I have no information about serial killer, but there are people out there that say, well, he's taken this knife and he's sequestered it somewhere because he wants

to use it. You know, he's been allegedly studying serial killers. He spent a lot of time at DeSales, both as an undergrad and a master's student. I forget her name, but he studied under someone. Catherine Ramsland. Yeah. Yeah. And I know Catherine.

I know I've been on panels with Catherine. And that was another thing that was really chilling for me personally is that, I mean, I'm not, you know, great friends with her. But you knew her before this all happened. Oh yeah. Yeah. I knew Catherine. As a matter of fact, I had been on a panel with her at Duquesne with Dr. Cyril Wecht.

I got invited up there to go speak and she was there. And I had met her prior to that, but we were on a panel together there. And then to, I guess a year ago, I was actually at ChromeCon and she and I were actually on air together at ChromeCon. Of course, not a word was mentioned about Coburger at all. She's, I got to hand it to her. She has kept, kept the lid on it the entire time. Now, as soon as he, he pled, she has made comments since then. And you know, that's-

I can't imagine what she, what must be going through. Well, let me just interject this. I was thinking, I was actually thinking about this on the way here to studio today. There's this, there is this fear that you have as an instructor, because people will, and I never thought about it. And until many years ago, I had several people that

had planted the seed in my brain. You never know who you're talking to. You never know who's paying tuition or even even if you're you know you're doing podcasts you don't know who's out there. You have no way of knowing. You know everybody's ingesting the stuff and so you, you know, everybody's ingesting this stuff. And so you really, you know, and I, I've thought about the position that it has put, uh, Dr. Ramsland in, um, and she, there's no way that she could have known about this on any level. And look, I mean, as far as ticking the boxes, all the academic boxes, he's supposed to be this sterling student and we've heard about this from a criminology standpoint. I've

taken exception many times with people that try to conflate criminology and forensics and they're not the same thing at all. Criminology is a subdivision of sociology. It's a study of criminal behavior and groups of criminals. They'd love to go to prisons and study these people and behaviorists and all that sort of stuff. It ain't forensic science. However, Dr. Ramslen became pretty well known. There were several articles that were written about it. DeSales was actually one of the early schools that had a standalone house. Yeah, they literally bought it for crime scenes, right? Yeah,

and West Virginia University has one. I have one at Jacksonville State. Oh, you do. It's not, it's in our building, but it's a, I don't know, it's 2,000 square feet with individual rooms, bathrooms, bedrooms. So you take like famous cases in the past that you don't tell your students what they are obviously. No, no, no, no, no, no. Don't do that. We create cases that are- You create them from scratch.

Yeah, we create them from scratch. Well, she was taking historical cases, I believe. Right. And walking students through. And but there's a lot of utility in that, you know, for what we're trying to convey sure students you have to teach you have to teach you have to teach it all and even with criminology students, you walk them through this process of you know what the police do at the scene.

Now, if you've got somebody that's highly motivated, that's a behaviorist or fancies himself a behaviorist. You wanna try to understand it even further. And so maybe you would refine the craft a little bit as best you can within that context without actually being around a forensic science instructor. You know, and you'll go down that dark road, but there's no telling how many dark roads he's been on.

You get to, in his position, you get to ask all the questions that if you asked anywhere else you'd be flagged as like the school shooter. But here you're just the dude that's the student asking the right questions. Yeah. I'll give you a fine example of this. I cannot tell you how many conversations I have now where people will walk up to me and they will say, look, I don't want you to think I'm crazy. And that's the way the conversation will start off.

Instead of no diddy, they go no Coburgers. It's like, yeah, go ahead and hit me what you got. You know, and I'll, you know, it'll generally be about a famous case or it'll be a relative that had died under suspicious circumstances a long time ago. And they want me to work the case for them backwards, not having any information. But those questions are asking you're right. It's all about the context of it. If I had, you know, some Joe Schmo walking off the street and just, and have no frame

of reference for this conversation at all and say, uh, yeah, my wife's been feeling kind of sick and her nail beds are turning a weird color. Uh, what do you think I can expect now? Her hair's falling out and you know, I'm thinking, well, heavy metal exposure, you know, and why are you asking me this questions? Are you putting something in her coffee? You know, so you begin to think about that, but in an academic environment or training environment for law enforcement, all you got to do is go back to golden state killer. Yep.

He was cop and he knew how cops worked. He got caught 50 years later. So yeah, a long time after my buddy, you know, did, did the leg work on that, a scary individual and he possessed that, that next level knowledge. Now he was a serial perpetrator. Yeah, that guy, I mean, if we go down that rabbit hole and that will be there for a long time. That case is dark.

It is dark, it's very, very dark. Good on the detectives though, years later never letting that case go and actually like dead to rights, getting the guy who did that. Yeah, and I gotta show some love here real quick if you don't mind. Please. One of my favorite groups of people now is Othram Labs.

And they're out of area just outside of Houston. And David Mittelman, who is the president and founder of Othram. I view him as the Elon Musk of DNA. The Elon Musk of DNA? Yeah, he is a brain that you, he and his wife both are PhD level forensic DNA specialists. And... Long Bendy Twizzlers candy keeps the fun going. Keep the fun...

going. Twizzlers keep the fun going. Genetic genealogy in particular. And he has a website that is actually, and this is something that's really close to my heart. It's called dnasolves.com. And it's, the beauty of it is this, I can't tell you, Julian, how many unidentified bodies I stood over over the course of my career. And I'm talking about skull remains, all these different. And his goal, this is one of the most altruistic things I've ever heard of. His goal is to literally clean out the database that we have in America of

unidentified bodies. It doesn't matter. We're not talking about homicides, or we're just talking about dead bodies that no one knows who they are after all these years. And he's using his lab and it's it's kind of self-funded You know you go in you look for something. Maybe it's in your area. They're working the case They have to get to a certain Border or boundary with that financially to get the to flip the switch to start working on it And they've cleared I think so far they've cleared well in excess of 300 cases so far, but there are thousands out there anyway.

Uh, that's, that's, and he has. Was he on the golden state case? Yeah. And I haven't confirmed he, he may have been, I don't know. They may have been involved in another case too, but we'll see We'll see what comes out not We'll see is it the case I don't know. I don't know I'll see okay, but You know, it's amazing what they can do

Because there's you know, I covered their cases periodically on my podcast. And, you know, we had a, they'd done a, uh, they found a skull out in California that had actually been taken from a grave, a grave robbery that had taken place. And a lady had been dead for 140 years and they got her identified. Somebody had the skull and got her identified through descendants of her family. And so with most of these cases with forensic genetic genealogy, it's going to be your cousins that point back to the point of origin with all of that. And of course, that's, that's what's great. Great, great, great, great. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, it's, it's, it's really fascinating stuff, you know, to be able to kind

of unspin a lot of the stuff that is so tangled and, and lost. It's lost to time many times. And it's weird. We've entered into this new world where some of these questions that we've had for ever and ever, I remember even as a young investigator down in New Orleans, we had boxes, skeletal remains down there. Boxes. Boxes. Yeah. Bodies that had been recovered, say from the Mississippi River or Lake Pontchartrain or found on the side of the road, where the bodies were so, you know, decayed and desiccated and everything else that you take the

tissue off of it and you just retain the skull for remains. There's no identifying dental features, no restorations or anything. And even if you had it, you couldn't go back. Because it's great if you want to do a dental exam on an unidentified body, but it ain't worth the gunpowder blow it. Hell, if you don't have something to compare it to in the anti-mortem state. And so now with these databases that they're using, they can take that one sample of DNA and run it back. And people that have voluntarily given up their DNA to do genealogy, it's sitting there

in a data bank somewhere, and they can take this data. And then not only does Othram employ forensic DNA people, they employ genealogists as well. So they've got this melding that goes on there. It's pretty fascinating to kind of see it. It's something that, you know, I still have memories of putting bodies in ground and mass graves, in body bags, where you keep them as long as you can. And you put, you know, little aluminum bracelets on the ankle, the wrist,

you secure the bag, you put another security marker on there. You think about an 18-wheeler, how it's locked on the back. It's kind of the same principle. And I think about going back all those years about we just didn't know what to do with the bodies. Thankfully, medical examiners and coroners have gotten away from cremating bodies, which is a huge problem. Yeah. I, what was the one I just heard of where they cremate? Oh yeah.

Virginia Roberts Shufray. Yeah. Out in, out in Australia. Cremated. Yeah. I'll give you one better than that. Michael Jordan's dad. He was cremated right away? I didn give you one better than that. Michael Jordan's dad. He was cremated right away?

I didn't even know that. Oh yeah, they didn't even know who he was. They found him in the creek and he was a homicide victim. Oh my God. I know. And they raised, as you can imagine, they raised 40 counts of hell about it, because his daddy was missing. They found him in Marlboro County, South Carolina.

It's a little bitty coroner's office. The coroner didn't have a storage facility. And what are you gonna, he can't take the body home with him, you know, you can't, you know, they're underfunded, they don't have a state medical examiner, they're a coroner system. So the only choice he had was to have the body cremated. After he had, you know, had the dentition examined and all that sort of stuff.

And that's how they eventually got him identified, yeah. It's wild all the little things that have to happen after something like this happens that involve, you know, record keeping and bookkeeping and storage space and like normal human shit, but that directly impact the case when you can't take the proper actions. You're right.

And going back to what you said in your introduction about me, about history is that I teach my students, I try to broaden it out a little bit and say, look, I know you're here for forensics. You wanna be investigators, but, um, you're also, uh, you're a historian. Yeah. Uh, you might be the only person that ever documents this person ever walked to face the planet. If you don't check all those boxes at that point in time, say, I mean, and look,

I've gone back and looked at records that were generated back in the 50s and I'm thinking, well, this person didn't give two hoots in hell about this person because there might be two or three lines written about them and then it's just kind of cast off. Well, think about it, not to be cynical, but what's a place where people think about like the DMV, right? Yeah, it's the same principle. A lot of times you'll have people that aren't the happiest people working there,

whatever, you know, they're government workers. And you know, they run someone through real quick, real fast so that the person has to come back and fix their license unnecessarily two weeks later. Yes. Not a big deal. It's an inconvenience for the person. It's annoying that happened. Yeah.

But the same principle can apply to a guy who has indigestion from lunch. He's like, what am I doing with that body? All right, yeah, just put it over. And then 60 years later, you don't know who it is. You don't know who it is. You go to some massive operation, like Office of Chief Medical Examiner in Manhattan or LA County, where they deal in such a volume that most

people, most people can't even begin to comprehend how many bodies pass through. Um, and they've gotten really good now. Uh, and we've done it for some time. They generate, uh, uh, blood cards and DNA sampling, you know, on the bodies that pass through so that they can retain that, that they'll always have it. Uh, and now we're going to see remarkable things. I'd say in the next half decade relative to how bodies are identified and they expect that what's going to really change is the expectation that the public has because now the standard has been raised. Right.

And if you don't meet that standard, even if you're out in East Egypt somewhere, you're still going to be held to that. You know, we get that all the time. These television shows that come on. Well, last night I saw this on TV. You mean you can't do this out here at the scene? You know, and of course, you know, art imitating life or life in an imitating art, it's going to happen one way or another. And of course, you know, art imitating life or life in imitating art, uh, it's, it's going to happen one way or another. Real quick, Joseph, I have to go to the bathroom. But when we come back, we'll go back to the, the Coburger scene. All right, we're back. We just did a,

just did a whole podcast off air there for like 40 minutes without starting back up. It's always fun to talk. It is a lot of fun to talk. I don't know if all that was kosher for camera, but some of it would have been really good. Yeah, but inquiring minds will never know. So you never know. We're gonna take it to the grave. Hey, wait, what's he doing over there?

Listen, Joe was recording the whole thing. Hey, they're okay. Well, the world that we live in, I'm not surprised. Now I got that Epstein blackmail on you, my friend. Yeah. Pause. Anyway, but we actually will talk about some of the Epstein stuff that you were showing us, which was wild because obviously at the middle of that whole fucked up case is the

fact that you had a guy who killed himself and it's a crime scene and there's evidence there and now they're trying to feed us this bullshit that it doesn't even start with the body. It's like, oh, it's not even, there are no files and all that. We'll talk about that. But I wanna finish going through the Cobra thing because you were doing an amazing job

walking through that case. So where we left off shortly before the break was we'd been talking about the sheath and you had been speculating, you know, that this may have been some very fucked up like sexual fantasy where then he dropped the sheath and, you know, became a monster and did this whole thing. But then after he kills Mogan and Kaylee up there, who again, he may have found Kaylee unexpectedly. He then has to find a way out of the building. He's got to get back out of this place, this complicated maze that still baffles me that

he made it through the structure. There's so much of this that it's indicative of somebody that has at least paid attention to the layout of this place to the point where he can navigate in the dark, make his way through this place, and still get out and seemingly leave nothing behind but a knife sheath. Now, there was some talk at one point in time that there had been a bloody footprint that was left, left behind, uh,

by maybe a van, uh, shoe, you know, like vans. Yeah. Yeah. And it's got a very distinctive pattern may have been in blood. Um, and again, we still don't know a lot about that other than the fact that one of the things that was pointed out was that there were other people in that house that wore vans as well. So we don't know.

Hopefully some of that's gonna come out in the record as more and more of the stuff is being released because even as we're talking right now, there's still wrangling that's going on about when there's gonna be a major data dump, and seemingly, and it's kind of an interesting little aside, I've been covering this thing for so long. Jeez, how long ago was it?

It was November 13th, 2022. Yeah, no, it started then, but recently when Dateline did their Friday, their Friday night show, you know, that they were, did this big reveal. I don't, no offense to Dateline. I don't watch Dateline. I don't watch shows like this. No, I just, it's not, it's just not my thing, man. Um, so I wake up Saturday morning and turn my phone, look at it, and I see that I'm tagged in an image.

And it says, wow, obviously a fan of Joe Scott's. And my handle is like Joe Scott forensics on X. Well, I look at it, and it is a screenshot from Dateline and my images on it. And my wife and I, as we always do, we're old. We sit there early in the morning and drink coffee together. And I'm like, you drink coffee. What the shit. And I like show that. And immediately it's like, she turned to Ashen. She was,

it bothered her down to her core because I'd been talking about this thing for so long in the news and this sort of thing. He, as it turns out according to Dateline in this data dump that they initially did, or this information that they acquired, he had been watching all of these shows that I was appearing on and not just me, other people, and they had a digital record of this stuff that he had been viewing. And so it gave me a thought back to our earlier, uh, uh, uh, supposition that I put forward about, you know, who's listening, who's watching.

It really kind of made me pause for a second. I'm thinking, what did I say in that interim between when this went down back in November to the point that they finally put the bracelets on his ass? What had I said during that middle that middle period? What did any of us say? Did we give him any kind of insight into because you know it was back then that I was saying you know well whoever did this their car was like a rolling crime scene because unless you cover the seats in some manner, which he may have, you're not gonna be able to get out of this without leaving some remnant behind.

It goes back to my forensic hero, Edmond LeCarde, every contact leaves a trace, that when you sit in this car, you're going to transfer certain elements into this environment, whether it be hair, skin, or blood. And how do you get past that relative to these barriers that you have to create in order to ensure that you're not gonna leave a trace of yourself

in this vehicle? Because if you extend this line of logic out and you begin to think about, well, if he went so far to buy a Dickie's outfit to cover himself with, and he's bought the balacaba, he has probably got gloves, he's going to walk into this environment, did he take other precautions when he got into the car to shield the interior of the car? Well, by the time they finally, you know, get the car, you know, which is another kind of infamous story,

when they raided the parents' house over in the Poconos. He's in there in his underwear, and he's wearing gloves, and he's transferring trash all around the place, trying to bag it separately to keep things. He had apparently an awareness of the types of things that we did. Not trying to make this about me. I'm just saying what perfectly normal behavior. If you're his family watching this, seems right. What did I say? Anything in the interim that, and you know,

he's watching everything that's out there. He's been studying this for years and years. It did. It did give me pause at that moment time though, to think about this. I understand why you would have that because you're a deep thinking, very moral guy. But at the same time, it's like, whenever a case like this goes down, once the unthinkable has happened, it's going to be reported on and it's going to be speculated on everywhere. It's not even just the prisoner's dilemma of like, well, someone's gonna do it. It's also like the public wants to know how these things happen and then how,

what do you mean you don't have the killer? And then you have to explain, well, here's how, you know, you could hypothetically cover tracks and things like that. You're doing your job and like if, not to be harsh, but if the detectives and the FBI and all the resources on it aren't smart enough to be a half a step ahead of that and half a step only needs to be three hours sometimes, you know, that's kind of on them.

Yeah, yeah, it is. And that was the big, that was a big cry that went up and what a lot of people don't understand about the Moscow police department, and I found this out really early on you are supposed to pronounce it Moscow, just like Costco. They don't dig on Moscow. So it has to be Moscow, so I had to learn that.

But anyway. Very, very aggressive. So they're a department that is, in total, is, very aggressive. So they're, they're a department that is in total is about 24 people. Just let that sink in just for a second. And so they're having to invite these other agencies in, whether it's the state police or certainly the feds to give them a hand with this. I think that probably many of us that were kind of observing this and

certainly my colleagues in forensics are thinking, well have they done everything that they needed to do to lock this thing? I'm not talking about even processing the scene, I'm just talking about securing the scene until those that are at maybe a higher altitude can actually view this thing and begin to understand how to work your way through this to collect all of the evidence. First off, recognize it, preserve it, and then collect it after you've documented everything. Did they ensure that that was going to happen? There were some troubling moments, I think, along the way. One of the biggest things that kind of, I guess it was probably two or three days afterwards, there was something that kind of struck me as odd that had occurred. The coroner from out in that jurisdiction gave an interview. And that's something that... The coroner did. from out in that jurisdiction gave an interview.

And that's something that- That coordinated it. Yeah, that's something that doesn't happen most of the time because if you just envision, that's the way I describe it to my students, you have an investigative bubble and there's really nobody that should penetrate that. And there are certain expectations of people

that are within that environment of your responsibilities. And one of the biggest responsibility is don't say anything. And because you don't know if that's going to damage the case and the coroner would have very intimate knowledge of walking in. Well, she had stated early on in the first interview that she gave that they were apparently all asleep. Well, as it turns out, they were not all asleep. As a matter of fact, nothing could be further from the truth. So I knew something was up when I, when I heard that and it makes you wonder about what else they fucked up. Yeah. What, what else had happened? We were that close, I say we,

I'm not gonna take personal position this thing, but it was that close to everything within that house being eradicated relative to evidence. Because before Coburger was actually arrested, they had agreed to have a crime scene cleanup company come out and begin to purge this place. I guess they wanted to get back on the market or whatever was going to happen because this thing was still

privately owned. As a matter of fact, there is actually an image of a crime scene cleanup truck backed up to the door and they have created a plastic cave to walk into this thing. They had just, I don't remember the exact date, but they had just hooked Coburger up. They just hooked Coburger up and he had defense counsel for him in Pennsylvania and they were like whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa we want our own people to come and take a look at this before you go through and clean this thing up.

Yeah, I know. And that's how, that's how close it was. Uh, and I've, and that goes to, uh, that goes to, uh, to the idea that, you know, the, uh, we the idea that, you know, the, we could get in, we could chase this rabbit all day long about tearing down the structure, which is something that has stuck in my craw and others. Cause they did it too soon. I just don't think it was wise to do it at all. Do you,

you wouldn't have any way of knowing, but June, I've worked a lot of homicides in my career, okay? Between New Orleans and Atlanta. I don't ever recall over that period of time where I had a homicide scene that was in a structure where the structure had been raised, like just taken down to the ground. Didn't they wait like they did that like December 2023 though they waited over a year. So you still think because you're saying if I'm understanding this correctly, because

the case was ongoing at the time it had not been adjudicated. Yeah. And the only rationale they could give is it creates bad memories and it makes people sad. I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. It makes them, I like to look at Parkland, Parkland High School, you know,

and they put chain link fence around the thing and they locked it down. And they're, one of the reasons was that they gave is they just, they couldn't afford to provide security for it and I'm thinking You know and I know a bit more now But if you one of the one of the big issues with with the structures we've talked about is I think the acoustics in there

You begin to think about what did people hear at any particular time? Do you recall that there was still a roommate that was downstairs? in there. You begin to think about what did people hear at any particular time? Do you recall that there was still a roommate that was downstairs? Weren't there two? There was Dylan and then there was another one that was on the on the parking pad. Was her name Emily? Yeah and she was physically in there and you're thinking well is it possible she could have heard something? And so if you ever even had a desire to take a jury out there, like they did with Parkland, um, which I'll never forget that day when they took the jury members out there and

they had the two representatives from the press corps that walked through it, that place was frozen in time. It was that important to them at that moment in time. They did that with Murdoch too. Yeah, they did. They preserved everything. And I've been involved in cases where jurors, the jury was taken out to scenes. It doesn't happen every time. It's a pain in the butt. Defense attorneys, well, prosecution hates it too. And this is why, because if, if you're questioning somebody before a jury in, uh,

this kind of protected environment, which court is, you control the dialogue. People that walk into an environment like this, you can't control their inner dialogue or what their assessment is. You know, they're, they're looking at everything and they're taking it all in. And you can't say yay or nay either way to them. They're observing this place. And I think that attorneys absolutely, they do not welcome these opportunities

to take juries out there and revisit these places. So it just seemed as though that it was an unreasonable risk to take when there was no need to take that risk at all, that they should have just let the structure intact. And I never could balance that in my mind, but they took it down. They took it down to the ground, man. I mean, it's gone. Yeah, I kind of wonder, because that does make sense to me that you would wait until the case is over to do something like that. Because it also makes total sense that in the middle of a college campus where there's supposed to be happy kids in the time of their life, you know, you don't want something like this being there. That place is haunted.

But it does make you wonder why they couldn't put like some sort of box fence around it. You know what I mean? Like a 20 foot high bin Laden kind of fence just to be like, okay, just with Constantine wire around the top of it. I don't, I don't understand. I've, and it's not, Hey, look, man, it's your world. I'm just living in it. I just, I don't understand why they did it. Maybe they have a better explanation other than it made people sad. Yeah. Which again, I get that for college kids, but you do it to your point. And I agree with you.

You have to think about the bigger picture here. You have to, there's only, you only get literally one shot at it. And if, if this had gone sideways, if this had gone sideways at any point in time, I think that that would be a point in time that they would, and look, they talk about the Pharaoh system that they walked in with. That's F A R O, uh, where this thing shoots thousands and thousands of images per second.

Um, it gives you a detailed digital reconstruction of the scene. I'm not going to say it's like the holodeck on the, you know, the star trek, the next generation, but they can recreate it. And they create the doll houses that they'll bring in and kind of take the floors off bit by bit and kind of, but you'll never recapture what the place was actually like, you know, in that sense. And I would think that you would want to have that in reserve.

It just seems like an unnecessary risk. Now what do we know? You had kind of gone through the possibilities of where you could enter this place earlier. Yes. And stuff like that. We went through the sliding doors. We had it up on the screen so people could see it as well. There's also the lower level up front where if it's unlocked, get in there or if someone knew the code because all these kids knew

the code you get in there. But what what what do we where do we assume he first gained entry right now? The sliders. The sliders. The sliders on that's the second floor level that he parked up probably behind. There's one way in one way out. Oh so he pulled up probably behind. There's one way in, one way out. Oh, so he pulled into the driveway. Yeah, well, no, up behind, like up the hill behind,

and then made his way back through down the hill to the sliders, and he was able to enter through there. And that's the vantage point where you could see into that third floor room from up there, whatever that is, that lot. Yeah, and like you're looking like this, and you're looking down that hill and into that third bedroom.

And that's a parking lot up there? Uh-huh, yeah, it's an adjacent area up there where you can park your car and then turn around you have to come back out. Okay, all right, so he goes in there. As you've also laid out very well, this is a complex layout internally on the house, where the staircases are, where the hallways are,

how you get from floor to floor. Once he comes downstairs and discovers Zana, and then therefore Ethan, and Ethan might have been, we don't know yet until they release all the information, he might have actually been the only one who might have been sleeping, but Zanna definitely wasn't once he discovers her Begins to stab her and kill her then whatever ends up happening. He ends up killing Ethan right there. I imagine that happens in a

relatively quick period meaning it didn't take ten minutes for him to do that, but He finishes that where does he exit the house? He comes back out through the sliders. Also through the sliders. And that's when Dylan would have seen him. When he is exiting, he, you know, she talks about how he passed by her and- Passed by her door or passed by her?

Yeah, passed by her. Her door was open like this. She looked outside of the door and she had, she's the one that heard someone say, and I'm paraphrasing here, there's some down here. Well, that, and also don't worry, I'm going to help you. And yeah, and that had been floating through the ether as well. Um, so that in and of itself is troubling. Uh,

and I've thought about this quite a bit relative to if we go with the idea that this is, first off, tinged with a lot of anger and hatred because there seems to be a lot of overkill here. If there's some kind of sexual thing that's going on where, and you don't have to have sex for it to be sexually motivated. You just rip the person to shreds. After killing four people, the question is, why didn't he kill Dylan? I think that probably he was completely spent. This is an adrenaline pump that he is on at this point in time.

He sat up there, he's got himself worked up, he goes in there, you can say worked up, aroused, whatever the case might be, I don't know, that's for brighter people than me to try to discover. But he goes in there, perpetrates this crime on the third floor, and then he's surprised. That's another boost of adrenaline right at that point in time. He knows that they can't escape.

He's got, if he's going to get away with the sink, he's going to have to do away with them. That is Xana and Ethan, you know, maybe she retreated to the room. She's found in her room. She's been killed. Ethan's been killed. Now he's going to try to get out. And apparently as he is walking down the hall, he looks right at Dylan.

That's when she sees this and she refers to it as guy. He's got really bushy ass, uh, uh, eyebrows. He's kind of an athletic built, but he's not muscular. I think she described him as like a runner or swimmer type body wearing a ball. Well, she didn't say balacaba. All she said is he had a mask and I could just see his eyes. She also made a reference at some point in time, or somebody picked up on this, that they thought he was carrying a vacuum cleaner. And I've heard, and when I say that, which seems so bizarre, some people have wondered

if he had an evidence vac with him. And I'm thinking that's something that we use to gather things up almost like a handy vac. And if you can't make anything else out, why would you say you had a vacuum cleaner? It seems very specific. And no one has ever been able to kind of prove that. I think that that's not what she saw.

It was something else, maybe the knife he was still holding on to, certainly absent the sheath. certainly absent the sheath. This girl, Dylan got a lot of, you know, and this is the problem with cases like this, when they instantly go viral socially, you get all these internet detectives all over it and it takes on a life of its own

that's beyond the facts of the case. And when you look at the timing, she wakes up the next day, seemingly disoriented, like, I feel like something happened last night, I don't know, calls her friend to come over. Friend comes over, Dylan is outside the house, and she's like, I don't know, something might have happened in there last night.

And then I believe that friend's boyfriend is the one that went in and first discovered them and came out and called the police. And so people are like, well, how the fuck, could you not call the police at four a.m. in the morning when you thought someone was in the house and even when you saw them? In your experience dealing with criminal cases though

and dealing with people who are shell shocked at scenes and something like this is completely incomprehensible to them, do you see that a lot of in your opinion is a lot of the behavior or you know, the way it went down from Dylan's perspective and particularly even going down in the basement with the other with the other roommate? Pretty I don't want to say normal, but pretty in line with there's nothing normal within this world. I've interviewed people in the past that were bordering on catatonia,

where they've got the thousand yard stare, they're vibrating like this, and the fact that your brain may bear witness or something, or maybe your brain is creating scenarios that you know something awful has happened, and it just kind of goes into protection mode. And, and this is not like we're talking about a college kid here. That's never probably seen a drop of angry blood spilled. Okay. And she's in this environment. Uh,

there's no telling how anybody is going to react. So the fact that this happened to me is not surprising at all. The troubling thing about it though, is that you've got this gigantic window of time that has now elapsed from the moment that those souls departed this earth to the first time police put their eyes on their remains. Um, and you know, you know, me, I, you know, one of the things that we, we examine or that we try to glean information from are the bodies relative

to post-mortem changes. And so that's going to skew data. And of course, time is very important here. Time is what this case is all about. You know, when were these particular markers hit? And then you kind of go into this zero zone here where nothing seems to be happening, but yet the bodies are still changing at this point in time.

Body temperature is dropping, Riger's setting in, Liver Mortis is setting in. How are you going to be able to assess that? Well, by the time the coroner gets out there, the coroner will not have arrived immediately. They're still going to be even further down the timeline. So any kind of data that you're trying to establish that might help you to really zone in on the times, thankfully they kind of have these digital markers, you know, like with the food delivery and all these sorts of things.

But and certainly the CCTV of the girls at the food truck, that gives you kind of a back end time. But going into the front, you know, if you're trying to adjust this to try to understand the changes that have happened, your data is really going to be skewed. It makes it hard. Yeah, it does. For sure. The thing, and you actually mentioned it, unrelated when we were talking about them raising the house. Yeah. But, and therefore you couldn't go in there and understand the sound and stuff like that.

But that's the thing that really is so hard for me to understand. And again, my explanation is that someone is in a scared catatonia and they don't know what's real and what's not, which I think is a perfectly good explanation. However, if someone weren't in that, what makes it hard to understand is how, for example,

someone like Xana who is awake and has fight back marks, which means she probably screamed. Yeah. And it was probably not once. It was probably a continued scream or whatever. The idea that you wouldn't hear something like that is hard for me to put it in the shoes of someone else who was in there and... try to understand what it would be like to be catatonic and not even be able to hear.

You know what I mean? It's very hard to process. Yeah, it is. And again, we don't know. Well, if you just take the example of Zana, okay, and you think about the injury she sustained on her hand, which are not post-mortem injuries. These happened in life. There are focal areas of hemorrhage, I would assume. They're talking about these being defensive injuries. They're very deep. And then to boot,

you've got all of the stab wounds that are being inflicted upon her. We still don't know anatomically inflicted upon her. We still don't know anatomically what the, uh, what the wound track is either. Did, did he, did he actually nail an area in her body that would have pretty quickly incapacitated her where she's not going to make a noise that was, was she so shocked by what was happening to her? She didn't cry out. Um, because you know, you're, you're thinking that this is kind of gymnastics you do because you're

thinking, okay, we've got four souls in this house. You're telling me that out of these four individuals that you don't have somebody screaming at the top of their lungs. Um, and again, you know, thinking about, um, the two roommates upstairs, how much alcohol did they have on board? You know, was there anything that was impeding their physical ability to respond? And again, we don't know. Did he use a pillow too?

You got to wonder that. Like did like you've seen, I'd not even to get like Hollywood about it but you see where people sneak up on someone in the sleep. Dr. Justin Marchegiani Yeah. Dr. Justin Marchegiani You know, but how are you gonna do that with two individuals? How's one individual not gonna be aware that it's happening to the other? You know, my fallback position is always and I'm hoping that we're going to learn what the blood alcohol level is.

How much alcohol did they have on board they were ambulatory it's not like they you know that they were you know Passed out in an alley somewhere. I mean they made it back home With that that mystery driver that brought them home who a lot of people were looking at early on thinking and it was just kind Of a goodwill gesture on that person's part to bring them home. It was like the designated driver for the fraternity. Yeah. And, you know, he got them back to their domicile and their upright.

They made it up to the third floor. So it's not like they're just completely passed out or anything. And again, those hopefully those answers will be revealed. All right. So the getaway though, because again, and you talked about it a little bit ago with the time in between when you're on TV and this guy is unknown and not caught yet. The getaway happens and he doesn't get, I believe he doesn't get taken down until the week after Christmas. So it was like six...

Like New Year's Eve, I think. Yeah, it was like six full years, six full weeks on the run. Yep. If I remember correctly, with what we have been given in public, they didn't start to look at him as a suspect until mid-December or something,

so over a month after. Yeah. But he gets in his white Hyundai Elantra... Yeah. suspect until mid-December or something, so over a month after. But he gets in his white Hyundai Elantra that he had turned off his phone when he was leaving Pullman, Washington. So his phone goes dark, but then his phone picks back up now. Introducing TurboTax Business, a brand new way to file your own T2 return, all while getting help from an expert who actually knows small businesses.

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Some regional exclusions apply. Learn more at TurboTax.ca slash business tax. Somewhere just south of Moscow. Yes. And he takes a long circuitous like circle route. Yeah. Back to Pullman. Yeah, he does.

And one of the interesting things was that that was offered up. I guess it was the defense attorney had put out there. Well, he went stargazing that night. Well, the weather report that night was that you had a low ceiling of about 300 feet. It was socked in, essentially. There was ice. And there was one point that was away from the city. They claimed that he had an interest in astronomy. And that he just went out there to this isolated, alone location just so that he could gaze up at the stars. You know, and you, I guess people would say,

well, what's wrong with that? It's free country, you can go do what he wants to do. Yeah, but when you couple that with the fact that the phone is off, and that he's gone to, allegedly gone to this location, I don't know, maybe he did go to that location. Maybe that's where the knife is. Maybe it's in the middle of a river out there,

or beneath a rock in the middle of the river. We have no way of knowing. You know, what happened in that interim period, what's really fascinating is that the next morning... He comes back. He comes back. And that blows my mind. You know, he pings outside the house at that point in time.

But here's another little point along the continuum. If you go back from there, You know, he, he pings outside the house at that point in time. But here's another little point along the continuum. If you go back from there, they had his phone moving around that house, I think 11 or 12 times in the weeks, you know, leading, leading up to this point, uh, which always has kind of captured my imagination. You know, again, you're talking about surveilling an area, trying to understand the comings and goings and who occupies the space,

and then to fail so desperately at this when it comes time to do it, because you're after one person, apparently, allegedly, but yet you don't account for the other three people that are gonna be in the house. But yet you've spent all of this time, the super villain here that is surveilling the area and he's picking out all the points of ingress and egress and all these sorts of things. And he's got this, you know, he's got his Dickies on and he's got his knife that he's gotten off of Amazon and so forth and so on. And he's being so very careful.

You know, he's got his, he's got his, he's got his knife that he's gotten off of Amazon and so forth and so on and he's being so very careful. You know you think about all of that and how did you screw it up this bad? Well he he certainly did. The one the one thing that kind of really threw a wrench into this whole process is that when the police the police, the police took a loop themselves, there's like a big, I can't remember what the distance is like 15 or 20 miles. They took a loop around potential routes where they went to every convenience store, church, anybody that had a camera.

And a couple of times they did catch what appeared to be a white launcher that was going past but it was going so fast you couldn't make out any kind of details in the driver. The FBI tried to frame it because they're good at this framing, making model of the vehicle and they were able to narrow it down to like a three year period but you couldn't see the license plate on the car either. And so it took some time before they actually wound up lighting back on him as a suspect. Now you said he was there like 11 times in the weeks, something like that.

In that data, were we able, I assume, to ping where the car sits and he's just sitting there, meaning the phone data shows that it's still. I'm assuming, I don't have that information, but I'm assuming that that would probably, because most of the time, when these things begin to ping like this, it will show movement. And if it's hitting right there

and it stays there for a protracted period of time, I would think that they could do whatever it is that they do relative, they talk about ge geofencing and all these sorts of things. So there's two big mistakes that from my very amateur seat stand out right away. Number one, he left the sheath there. Number two, the get to and get away and the build up before where he's visiting there even with the cell phone data, very bad at covering your tracks on both sides of it.

However, getting into the house, as you said, complex structure seems to have known it very well, was able to effectively neutralize everything in his way with the exception of Dylan, which you speculated could be because he was spent at that point. So unfortunately, he went in there and even if he intended to kill one person, was able to have enough time and wherewithal to kill four, which made it even way worse than it was to begin with. If he went there though with the car 11 times ahead of time, I wonder if, you know, this is a college house.

People are in class during the day. They don't lock it. I got to assume he went in there. You see a creeper? Yeah. I mean, would he have the ability to go in there? Because, you know, I've, I've thought about this, thinking about just trying to size this place up. If people were common, the people were common, uh, even strangers to this location and you happen upon one of the roommates, Hey, I thought this was so,

I thought this was Mary's house or whatever. He happens to be in there. Oh no, no, no, there's no Mary that lives here and he's off. Well, I don't know. Maybe, maybe, maybe one of them had seen him there at some point, Tom. I don't know if that ever happened, but would he have the intestinal fortitude to do that beforehand or did he just hang out on the periphery? Because if he's a burgeoning sex offender, you know, with this complex thing that's going on with his psychopathology, did he get in there to try to take trophies? And I'm thinking about clothing, anything like that, any kind of garment that might belong to her. Well, there was nothing to my knowledge, at least, that was found at his apartment, Pullman, that would give that indication because some of these people like to do that.

And again, people throw around the term serial killer. To the best of my knowledge, he's not a serial killer. He is a mass killer. And I don't know if that was his purpose. Some people point at the knife to say that, well, this is something he wanted to hold on to. It's like a carpenter loving the finishing hammer that they always use. Well, if you suppose that this was the first time out,

did it prove to be all that he wanted and more as far as an instrument of death? Well, it certainly worked well at that point in time, but why would he, did he begin to feel the heat of this and decided, you know, in that six week period, did he decide to get rid of the knife? Somewhere else where it might never be found, who knows? I have no idea.

He drove across the country. I mean, you know what I mean? Yeah, with daddy in tow. Yeah, I mean, for all I know, he drove up to the Snake River and threw it in there. I have no idea. Um, and that's going to be an interesting question, but you know, the thing about it though, Bubba is this, is that, um, this guy's not being made to allocute, you know, and for me, that's,

yeah, it's, it's incredibly bothersome, particularly when you consider what he has put these families through. Because essentially, he has out and out lied about everything. They were trying to come up with like a week before someone else did it. It was actually like three days before he actually copped to it. He has been lying the entire time, but yet they're not going to put him in a position where he is being forced to say precisely what he did. It just seemed to me that you could leverage this agreement by saying, okay, you have to

stand up there and do this. Just like BTK, just like Jody Arias, you have to stand up there and say what you did. And you have to tell everybody what you did. And why effectively? Well, yeah, you could ask him why and the motivations, but you know, this is what I think. I think that he is probably so twisted. First off, at the time of this recording, he has not, you know, he has not appeared in court. However, I think I would be surprised if he did say anything about what his motivations were or anything like that. It seems to me because he had

studied these killers for so long, he still probably views himself on some level as some half-assed academic and he wants to call shots relative to when he's going to make any kind of statement. And trust me, there will be a whole line of people that will want to talk to him. And there will be people from academia that will want to talk to him under the guise of saying, well, we just want to study him for the benefit of everybody else. And they'll write papers about him and he'll have full attention here. And all along, these families are absent their babies for the rest of eternity.

Why did they make this deal? Like that's what I don't understand. Like if they made the deal where he then had to allocute, it makes sense. But to make a deal, I mean, the Gonzales family is very upset about it. And listen, I think it's like two of the families are upset about it, and the other two are like,

it's over, we're putting it behind us, we're glad to have the actual case not have to, whatever. And they may still be, I don't know this for a fact, they may still be very disappointed. It's for a fact that may still be very disappointing it's not Allocuting but on all they're trying to do the best they can to move on with their lives after this But the families who are upset about this I fully understand that and I don't understand the logic Unless the case was for some reason they felt like weak and like he might get off on some of it You know, why would they make this deal in your opinion?

Well, he's got five charges, okay? First charge he's got is felony burglary, which is, and in the charging document itself, you can actually see this online. It talks about, again, this is me paraphrasing, burglary for the purpose of committing murder. And then for each child that was butchered, there's an individual charge for them. I don't know how much whittling down you could do of that or offer up any kind of alternatives

as far as sentencing or anything like that, because it is what it is. He planned to go in there and do this. Now maybe if he came forth and said, yeah, you know, Maddie was my target, I was surprised by the rest of them. Maybe that would be the one big charge that they had and they would reduce everything else. I have no idea.

I don't know if they felt as though that it was, you know, burden hand is the kind of view that they were taking of this. But up until that point when he entered the plea, he was proclaiming his innocence and he was saying that he was not guilty. And all of a sudden he has this come to Jesus moment where he says, oh no, no, I did it. I mean, don't believe me.

Go look at the tape. He's standing there. He confesses to every bit of it, or at least says that he did this. Now he doesn't give an explanation. I don't know that we'll ever have an explanation. That's, that's going to be for a lot of people to kind of jawjack over for, you know, forever and ever. Amen amen until the next one of these kinds of tragedies happens. Um, but either way, um, I think that it's, it's less than probably for certain family members,

probably less than satisfying, I would think. Hard for me to even try to imagine that, like what I might be thinking. Yeah, well, this is the thing about it. There will be witness impact statements, and I'm going to be watching this very carefully. I can tell you from my perspective. I do hope, my heart of hearts, I do hope that the families are given every bit of the information about what happened to their children if they haven't had it already. And that they have somebody that has aided them in writing out a statement. And I don't care if it takes two days to do it or three days to do it.

That now they cannot directly address him. They address the court because the, uh, you see people in impact statements will turn sometimes and look at, at the acute. No, they're going because the witness impact statement is supposed to actually impact the judge and making their decision about what they're going to do as far as punishment goes and those sorts of things. That's the purpose of it. But I do hope that as they are addressing the court that they will have be armed. I

hope that the prosecution will have armed them with sufficient amount of information so that if he's not going to aliquot, by God, the family is going to be able to state in open court that this is what, according to this, this is what you did to my kids and you are admitting to this. This is what you did to my child. And they'll be able to hold forth on that and hold him accountable at least to some degree. Because I still don't, I don't think that we understand the depth and the breadth of how violent this was. Um, one thing that people always point out is that that image that comes from the

scene, you know, where you've got what appears to be, and I'm not the forensic scientists that handled it. I can't say definitively that that is blood, but people have said that that's blood trickling down the wall onto the foundation of the house. It comes out of the walls and you can see it right there. It looks like blood, but forensically, we can't look at something and say that is blood. You have to test it. But that gives you an idea of what type of blood bath this may have been inside of that house. And if it's presenting outside the structure, you can only imagine what the interior of the house and if it's presenting outside the structure you can only imagine what the interior

of the house looks like. Yeah we have that image up right now. Joe's got that. That's on the outside. That's on the outside. That's the foundation right there. All right now the judge when he was arrested at the end of December 2022, and then had like the first hearings or whatever, the judge put the gag order on this case. And prior to that, prior to him being caught, the detectives were very limited with what they released on details

because they were in the chase of him and they didn't, you know, I guess didn't wanna give certain things away, even about the crime scene itself and what it looked like. And so we've gotten from some court documents since then, that I guess are publicly available, we've gotten some detail of what went down. But the way I'm understanding is that we still like, they're gonna have to, they're basically gonna data dump on us after this is done, where they release everything.

And we're gonna actually for the first time, just tell me if this is fair to say, understand exactly what that crime scene looked like. The depth and breadth of it. Yeah, I think so. And the media is a big piece to this. They've pushed for this for some time. And you can say what you will about what their interests are here. Obviously, if it bleeds, it leads. And they will generate multiple articles about this

after that data dump takes place. I will be contacted, they'll ask me to give comment about interpretation of it. What do I think? What can I draw from it? And that's all going to happen. But at the end of the day, it's not gonna change a damn thing.

These kids were still butchered. But we will have more detail. I think, can I just say right now, one of the things that has really troubled me about this case is at his point of origin, we're talking about a kid that, a grown man, that is a heroin junkie, that broke free of that, allegedly, and went on to climb these heights in academia, it always bothered me that out

of all the places in the United States that he could have chosen to go and get a doctorate from, he decided on Washington State University. I don't know, maybe he was looking for a fresh start, you know, because if you look at, if you look at criminology, PhD programs, there's three alone in Pennsylvania that you can get a PhD in criminology. The Northeastern corridor of the United States is like the home to some of the, yeah, like Northeastern that's in Boston is considered to be one of the leading places

in the country. What is it that was so special about Washington state? What is it that would drive you to travel all the way out there several thousand miles to go to that location and fly it into the side of the mountain as soon as you get there. Because he had arrived in the summertime. He had not even really done a semester and he got a position as a teaching assistant.

He was fired from that too. And he was because of how abusive he was, particularly towards female students allegedly. Interesting. And it makes me think, who was it there at Washington State? Because it's one thing for an individual to get a master's degree, all right? But when you go for a traditional PhD, particularly in something like criminology, most of the time you're going there to study under someone.

Like ultimate Socratic method, you're sitting at their feet and you're learning. What academic font was he going there to sit beneath that he was going to spend? Because if you've ever talked to anybody sitting one of these like really intense PhD programs, it's like indentured servitude. You know, we'll put a roof over your head, we'll feed you, we'll give you a little bit of a stipend, but you're going to work. You're going to work. You're going to work hard. You're going to have to teach all of my classes. You're going to have to grade

all my papers. You're going to have to advise all of my classes. You're going to have to grade all my papers. You're going to have to advise all of my undergraduate students. And oh, by the way, you got to do your research for your PhD. And you got to take your PhD courses, your core courses. He hadn't even made it through his first semester, and his ass gets fired. Why? What was it that happened that burned it all to the ground for him from an academic sense? Why is it that he would

go through all of this effort and target that location out there to go and study there? I have no idea. I've often wondered, you know, was he, was he, did he have an awareness of somebody out there before he ever left Pennsylvania. I don't know. I don't know that that'll ever... it doesn't have to be any of these victims. Was he going out there for something else that had piqued his interest, for instance, that would drive him all the way out there as opposed to staying closer to home? I don't know. Maybe he just wanted a new start. As a part of the gag order though, you know, we don't have any details on what detectives have uncovered digitally and things like that

I imagine right it'll be interesting to see what his I don't know internet history was and The things that in the years leading up to that he did was it something so random where? Was it something so random where he found Maddie online or something like that? And is it sick fuck who had some weird obsession? I don't know. Yeah. If not Maddie, maybe somebody else. Was his driver to go out there and study criminology at a doctoral level or was his driver something else? You know, you look back at like him

creating these questionnaires even before he became a PhD student, asking these guys that had committed these horrible crimes that were incarcerated, you know, I just, I wanted, and they're very detailed, Julian. They're things like, what were your thoughts about leaving the scene of crime? Did you think about leaving anything behind?

What were your plans going into it? Did you have a plan going into it? And retrospectively, you look back at this, and this is really, really dark stuff when you begin to think about it. And again, you're taking, I'm taking this from the perspective of a college professor thinking about, well, if you've got a student that's asking these questions, what's the impetus behind it? Is it you're a burgeoning killer or is it you truly have an academic interest in this? Yeah, it gets so weird. There was

in the Amazon documentary about this, which was not the one you were in. Right. I was in the Peacock one. Yeah. Yeah. The Amazon one is where they pretty much... The James Patterson one. Yeah. They do it strictly from the perspective of the victim's families involved and tell the story that way. But they had... they put in there the people who ran the Facebook page about this. I don't know if you saw this.

But the administrators of the Mystery of the Idaho 4 Facebook page back when he was on the run had a character show up in there, an account called Papa Roger. And who was the 2014 serial killer? Roger, what's his name? Yeah, the kid, what's his name? Can't remember. Elliot Roger. Yeah, so this was interesting for litany reasons because first of all, when Koberger got caught, the Papa Roger account disappeared from the internet completely. It couldn't be found. The Papa Roger account disappeared from the internet completely. It couldn't be found.

Secondly, when you look at the profile picture that he used, it was almost like an aged AI, like or cartoon of the side of Coburger's face. If you look at if it's not perfect, but it's very similar. Has the last name of a killer that he was educationally linked to studying at the sales. He was very interested in Elliot Roger and the stuff He had did had done and Elliot Roger he had killed himself before you know, he got arrested but he had killed I believe it was he had targeted all these women in

California back in 2014 and It stemmed from his anger and hatred of women for rejecting him. So he was like an incel type. And it is sinister to look at the posts that Papa Roger was putting on the Facebook page while Coburger's on the run because a lot of it almost word for word in some cases overlaps with the very questions the Coburger was putting into his questionnaire of the previous killers when when he was quote-unquote studying it and the

Inspiration I Don't even think you should call it that but the the ideological drawing upon he seemed to do with the naming of that account Being Roger and then looking at the nature of the crime Clearly targeting a female out of some sort of weird sexual rage and anger in all likelihood Yeah, also probably because he was rejected in an incel or whatever. It is Really really sinister. it's very dark it certainly is and you know people will take the term incel and trust me I was not as familiar with the construct as I am now in the wake of Koberger but the

problem with the term I think is, is first off, it's not a psychological diagnosis. You can't go into the DSM, the diagnostic manual, and find a diagnosis of being an in-cell. There might be components that are contained therein, and I've found a lot of pop psychologists that are contained there in. And I've found a lot of pop psychologists that are out there that throw the term around. They should know better by the way. And I think that again, that goes to, they don't have any other way to kind of categorize him.

And that's kind of the easy default position. It's almost like getting closure. You know, where we're avoiding, I think, many times with this idea of in cell-like behavior, whatever that means. You know, they'll talk about issues of misogyny. You're walking away as a man. You're isolated, you share common views with other people that have quote unquote walked away.

And I'm wondering if I'm really wondering if we're missing a broader maybe diagnosis or an examination of him and his behaviors, because this is not something. This is not something that he suddenly decided to participate in. This is something that has been a lifelong journey towards. And maybe he has a commonality with other people. I don't know that have perpetrated horrible crimes. Maybe those things do exist. But I think that the one thing that should be learned

from Coburger is to try to understand what the genesis of his turning into this thing that he has become is or was. Just like with Elliot Rogers, perhaps, but just like with the Nashville shooter too. Where, you know, the manifesto, I think, has now been released. I'm not really sure who can keep up with all the manifestos

that are out there. But is there any kind of common linkage between any of these people along their journey? I think that we need to be very careful in using that term, because again, it's... We're not really getting to the heart of the matter here with Coburger. It's going to bear a deep dive into his familial history. The impact that his raising, I've heard a couple of people say, well, he was, he was impoverished. He grew up in, in really bad poverty. I'm thinking,

there's a hell of a lot of people who've grown up. I grew up in partial poverty. That's also not true. I don't think either. Yeah. And so what does that even mean? What is it that is in his guts? What is it that is in his DNA, literally and figuratively, that would drive him to do such

a crime? And I think that's one of the things that always keeps people coming back to true crime, because they see how horrible these things are. And I think some people wanna know, do I know anybody that's capable of doing this? Am I capable of doing this? What would be the motivator for someone

wanting to snuff out these lives? I don't know. When you're dealing with someone who's clearly, and I'm just using a broad term here, is way more complicated and probably worse than this, but clearly sociopathic in nature, it's like how much can you even get to that snap point where you're like, oh, that's where it shifted. Now, it's easier when you can spot something where something horrible happened in someone's life and then talk about people who knew them and the behavior that changed that.

Okay, those ones can tie together pretty well, but when it's more of a slow burn or something like that or something that's developed over time and there's some other factors in the personality around it that help drive you towards that type of en route. It gets really difficult to ever know the truth. You know, and look, this person's often cited, but if you look at Dahmer, Dahmer goes back to, you know, he allegedly committed his first homicide when he was a teenager beat the kid to death, you know, and then discarded his remains there in Ohio.

They went back. And of course his dad had famously, they would, and look, I guess on its surface, if you're a scientist, there's nothing wrong with this, but him and his dad would go out and they would find roadkill and they'd take it back to the house and dissect the roadkill together and to study anatomy, these sorts of things. His dad's this brilliant scientist. And then how did Dahmer develop over the years? Well, you know, we said, you know, earlier that, uh, that Coburgers is junkie. Well, Dahmer was an alcoholic. All right.

But just because you're a junkie or an alcoholic doesn't mean that you're going to go into a house off campus at the University of Idaho and completely devastate these kids and their families. You know, that's not an indicator of anything at that point in time. I don't know that we'll ever know the full depth and breadth of it. I think about that a lot because I'm not a father at this point in my life, but I plan to be, and it's like, there are so many, when the younger a kid is, the more malleable they are. And I'm not just talking about how you are around them,

I'm talking about any environment they're in. And it's scary to think about all the different things in this world now, that the smallest little, you know, snap of the finger, wrong thing that they see could, you know, get their pathway diverted off to something you don't want. And you think about, for example, the one you just mentioned where it's like, okay, you have a scientific father who's genuinely interested in something, probably for the right reasons, I'm assuming and

Happens to drag his kid along to look at this. Oh, let's dissect roadkill, but you don't realize psychologically what it might be Yeah, and he's not able to hand him. I don't know how the kid was but let's say six He's not able to handle yet the difference between doing that on dead roadkill or a human being You know, yeah, but then I think about generationally too, Julian. I think about, you know, let's just take the Dahmer example with the roadkill. You know, children for generations and generations have been around butchered animals. What is it about modern times that has driven people

to such levels of violence like this. And I know that violence has always been around, okay, but we've never seen it kind of like in the form that it's currently in. I think a lot of the driver, and it's really easy, again, I'm being dismissive by saying this, I think a lot of the driver behind it now is probably social media. I truly believe that. I think that people are exposed to things that they weren't previously exposed to.

And if we go with the idea that they're psychologically fragile in any way, what's to say that something couldn't push them over the edge? For sure. And that's why they make such a big deal out of cyberbullying and all these sorts of things, because it can perhaps push somebody to do something terrible to someone or to themselves.

You never know. I think you're 100% right. I think we've seen trends and commonality of horrible trends become way worse with social media and the impact that a kid can have clicking something halfway around the world that is going to change their perspective on things for all the wrong reasons, you can't underestimate that at all.

But I think there's also a middle era there that we shouldn't ignore about human nature, which is that even if you look at like the time of Bundy or like Dahmer, this is pre-internet era. They didn't have social media and things like that, but why were there, why suddenly were there way more serial killers than had been known to be in the past?

When you look at violent, way worse societies that go back a thousand years, violence was done out of, don't mishear me on this, violence would come out of a form of survival necessity to a lot of people, including when it was completely wrong on every level. So at a high level, where it's more normalized, would be like war.

You know, a tribe's fighting against another tribe and they kill each other and war's hell and it's ugly. On a lower civilizational level, if someone's starving and another dude is going for food and the two of them haven't eaten in five days because they're living in Bumblefuck and one guy kills the other to eat. It's a survive It's not right, but it's a survival mechanism And so when I look at even before social media, this is just me theorizing with it and you look at the rise of violence and these

Creative violence I would describe it like I would describe it like. I would describe it as now, I would describe it in the world that we're in, social media world as recreational violence. That people, yeah, I mean people, it's been normalized to the point where people think that it's acceptable behavior to do what they're doing. Even when you look at, you know, folks that are threatened and bullied online, people that are doxed, all these sorts of things that happen like that, it, never in our wildest dreams would we have imagined that people could be impacted the way they are impacted now

by this new thing that's been injected into our system. And the comfort of being behind a keyboard or even behind a camera, right? And not having to three-dimensionally communicate with people like this, I think, rewires your brain in such a negative way. I've seen it again and again with people. People that I say would never say something like that to

my face or something. Some of those people can be driven to a point where maybe they would and wouldn't even realize they're doing it because they're so disassociated. It seems like I remember Mike Tyson had quite a quite an interesting quote about about keyboard warriors and people that do that sort of thing. And you know, keyboard warriors have driven, have driven certainly to a degree this case, oh my God, the Karen Reed case out of the Boston area up there.

That again, a case that's just absolute bananas, where you had groups of people and it's divided along these lines, where people are, you know, harassing each other and showing up at court with posters and all these sorts of things. Super, super bizarre behavior that I've never seen manifested before. But to go back to that middle era, meaning after the times where you were fighting over food just to eat that day, but before the times of social media.

So let's just keep it on a more micro level. Talk about the 60s, the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, where you saw these quote unquote recreational killers and things like that pop up and violence in regular society, shock people that an individual could stoop to such levels of evils. I think there's three factors, and they all go hand in hand driving each other, feeding each other in a way. One, environment, which doesn't mean you have to grow up poor or something like that, maybe

your dad was abusive. Two, psychological wiring, maybe you are more wired psychologically to have X, Y, or Z disorder that disassociates you from other people in the potentially sick ways. And then three, time and comfort, which I'm combining as one. And what I mean by that is, you know, in 1800, there's no electricity, you had to go out and you had to kill dinner. Yeah. You had to survive.

Yes. There wasn't time to think. There wasn't time to wonder about, well, why does Mr. Jones down the street have a house that's 3000 square feet and I have one that's 2100? There wasn't time to bullshit at, you know, around the water cooler at the office at the job you hate but you go to because that's what you're supposed to do. And something about us moving from the wild of surviving that most that all other animals besides us on the earth have to do every day, where last I checked,

you know, there aren't a ton of serial killers across species, there's violence across species to survive. But it's not like we see a BTK of fucking, even lions or whatever all the time. You know, maybe some of the environmentalists out there can correct me on that, but it's like, you know, we have, we have developed from having to fight for things out in the wild to live under fluorescent lights and think about things and something about that being in a

room and having time to ourselves to think can drive some people to go in all the wrong directions. I think so a lot of spare time, too much spare time maybe on our hands. Idle Hands are the devil's workshop. Yes and it's something I live by that's why I always try to stay busy. So but yeah yeah I think so and plus you see what everybody else has I think now and it to me, this, and listen, I think that when it's all said and done, social media is going to play a big role in, in this horror show out in Idaho.

We can't fully appreciate it now, but as the layers are being peeled back from these cases, it's not a single case. These are cases because these are individuals. These are somebody's babies. As this is peeled back, we're going to understand the depth and breadth of it. You were talking about referencing the Papa Rogers thing. We've heard conversations about this for a protracted period of time. Was it him that was doing this was he teasing all the way along?

One thing that really stands out my mind Julian on Again, this was in the data dump that came out Guess over a month ago now is there's that picture of him Standing in front of his bathtub where he's thumbs up in yeah, and his hair is standing in front of his bathtub where his thumbs up and yeah and his hair is in when you take a look at it maybe it's just me I don't know but when you take a look at it he his hair is combed over and parted on one side and it looks wet almost like I've shed my skin I've shed I've shed those things that I was wearing now I'm standing here with my fancy,

smanshy little shirt on. It's buttoned all the way up to the collar. I'm pleased with myself. I'm getting a thumbs up. I'm showered and I'm ready to hit the road again. Yeah. And you know, I look at it and he is such a freaking reptile. Yeah, exactly.

You know, when you see that. And that's in the wake of what has just happened, just so that we understand that as a matter of fact, I think that when that image was taken, if I'm not mistaken, the bodies had yet to be discovered. So that gives you an idea. It's totally fresh. Yeah, yeah, it is. And it's, it's almost like, I don't know. I mean, tell me what you think you see it. You know, he's there in front of the shower, like, it is. And it's it's almost like, I don't know. I mean, tell me what

you think you see it, you know, he's there in front of the shower, like he's very happy about it. hair is all slick down, and it's not like you normally see him. And boy, he's white as a ghost, didn't he? Why does it goes? It's easy to say on anything. Hindsight 2020, how could you not have seen, but that was, you remember the first picture they released to him in the bulletproof vest from the jail, if we can pull that up Joe, I remember seeing that like the night he was, or I don't know, the day after he was apprehended, whenever I first saw it, like within 24 hours of him being caught. And you look at this and you look into his eyes, there are no lights on. There's no one home. That is like I'm not one of these people that believes in like demons and demonic and stuff

like that. Like people throw those terms around a lot online. I mean, who the hell knows? Maybe it is real. I'm open to it. But I've never been one to really subscribe to that. Like people throw those terms around a lot online. I mean, who the hell knows? Maybe, maybe it is real. I'm open to it, but I've never been one to really subscribe to that. But I remember seeing that for the first time and going, he doesn't look human. Yeah. He's got, I think that, you know, one of the things that psychologists do is when they interview people, they're also looking for body language and that sort of thing too. And I'd be interested to know how he could vocalize things because I'd want to know if

he has what they refer to as a flat affect where it's, yeah, where it's just very monotone. Oh, I bet he does. You know, piercing looking, you know, and he's got this reputation as well as like, uh, he's smart as he thinks. He is the smartest person in the room. That's one of the reasons he didn't get along. Certainly with the people out in, uh, out in Washington. Now what's gonna, uh, and I hope that this comes out, I'm going to be very curious to see what his, uh,

what his relationship was like with the people at DeSales, particularly at the graduate level. You know, like what his interaction as he's kind of evolving as a student, did he, was he building up to this crescendo where it's like, okay, well, I've learned all I can possibly learn from you people. Now I am the smartest person in the world

and I'm gonna go out and make my name out in Washington state. James Patterson had one of his guys that he went to school with at DeSales on their interview. And he had a lot of interesting tidbits. Among them were, he worked on group projects with him. And one thing is he said he was a great person to work on group projects with.

He was really smart, very nice, a little different, a little distant, but meaning when the kid was talking about it, he was making it clear he didn't have those red alarms, hindsight 2020, I just mentioned going off in his head, which was interesting to me, because then he went on to explain, among other things, that, you know, he would invite Brian out socially, you know, to hang with the boys. He said he would never take the invite, ever. And, you know, this guy just figured he's a loner. He doesn't really... he isn't really around people. But it's not like, you know, not every loner is a serial killer.

No, they're not. It's not like, you know, not everyone who's a serial killer or a mass murderer or something like that. But when you think about it now, it's interesting that he would have been described as like a good, you know, partner on a group project, like meaning this kid was implying that he had some interpersonal skills. Obviously, he was a little behind the eight ball, but he wasn't dead to the world just looking at you like, just give me the answers, man. There was nothing in this kid's experience that would point that out. And by extension,

it seemed like, and I don't know this for sure, he was insinuating the other people who worked with him as well didn't seem to have that inkling either. Well, maybe he's the one, one kid on the group project that would take charge and do everything for everybody. That could be it. He's toting the water for everybody else because he thinks that he is the smartest guy in control when he does that. In control of it. Yeah. And I got to tell you when,

if you take somebody like that, if, uh, you continue this, this idea, uh, you take somebody like that and you put them into a PhD program where it's very rigorous, you are completely out of control. As a matter of fact, you're under somebody's thumb for a protracted period of time. They're going to really cut you loose for probably about two years more than likely, particularly when you start your research work, working on that dissertation, trying to drive toward that. And maybe he thought that he already knew everything

when he showed up and he didn't. Well, it is like all these cases are sickening on. And it's very difficult for people with a beating heart, no matter how much expertise they have to cover it, especially as long as it's been. But it's very important when a guy like you does answer all the questions on this stuff, as you've done beautifully today.

But also, you've been doing this intermittently with all different details and news that would come out over the past three years. And it's like, it's important because I always say it like this, unfortunately, you can't eliminate all evil in the world. That is the nature of humanity and this little spinning rock we live on.

But if there's ways that, you know, small little ripples can lower the percentages over time, which statistically, by the way, we have seen that happen. Yeah. You know, it can help. And maybe there's one less of these moving forward. Yeah, and I hope so. I would hate to think that, and again, I'm very, very cynical

that we're not going to see this happen again. I think that we will. It'll just be in a different mask, because it's never going to stop. People that think that it is, are, are off the rocker because evil has always been with us. It will continue to be with us. And I've been documenting it my entire adult life. I just see, I see the, I see what's left behind in the wake and, you know, Coburger is at this moment, Tom,

he's in the news, but there will be somebody that will replace him. I can guarantee that will live on in infamy, but hopefully, hopefully something has, hopefully we will have learned something. I don't know what yet because it's also freaking tragic along the way. It's yeah, it always, it leaves changed lives as we've said a million times today, and it's wake. And I hope people don't lose sight of that. And again, that's why I appreciate how you handle this stuff. And it was clear that even the mother of Ethan Chapin appreciated that.

Thank God bless her. I hope that she finds peace. What it, by the way, of all these families are incredibly strong to be able to deal with this and even talk about it. I can't fathom that. But that woman was... Yeah, if that had been... Whoa. If that had been me, I would still have been... This is only six months after the fact, I think. Something like that. It is some approximation. I would have been curled in a fetal position in the corner. There's no way I would have been upright

and doing what she did. I couldn't take the measure of it at that moment, Tom. That was a room of 3,000 people when I was standing up there. And I just literally described what I believed at that time had occurred at the scene and what you know from an evidentiary standpoint the things that they would be looking for and all that because people just really didn't know we didn't have

any information and of course I brought I brought a K-bar along with me and then you know you sit there and then the mom steps up yeah and you're thinking oh my lord in heaven you know I've just talked about this in front of her. I hope I did a good enough job. Yeah, yeah. And I hope I was respectful. Yeah. Well, you were. And I do have to say about her, she, what a strong lady.

Of everyone in that James Patterson one on Amazon, she really just blew me away. I mean, obviously she's a mom who lost her kids. She's going to be in pain the rest of her life. That's not, that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying, you know, she's over it at all. I don't know. Also, I don't know if people realize that Ethan's a triplet. Yeah, exactly. He's one of three. Yes. And so they're tied to, you know, they had the siblings in there too, and they're incredibly strong as well. But you know, I could only imagine the hatred in my heart

that I would have in that kind of position. And I don't think she has that. And I really, and I admire her for that. Again, again, what she has stated that her and her husband are going to be doing on the 23rd is they're not going to be at the court. That's right. They're going out on their boat. Which you know, good on them. I'm happy for them because that's where they will find peace. I think they spent, and there's several images out there of Ethan

and Xana together on a boat. And I think that that's probably an appropriate way to, and far be it from me, to tell them how to celebrate anything. I'm nobody compared to what they've gone through. But what a great way to, you know, kind of celebrate his life and put this beast in the deepest, darkest hole that we possibly can and let us speak of him no more. And, you know, because I don't know that he has any value whatsoever to add to the conversation any further than after the 23rd. I hope that we're done with him forever and ever. Amen. I hope so too. And I hope that, you know, whatever studying happens on him, happens with the professionals behind closed doors with no cameras so that he doesn't get any

attention and doesn't get all the things that... And I think he'll be craving that. I certainly do. Of course. Of course. But we do have to talk about the guy who never dies, apparently. Oh my gosh. Jeffrey Epstein.

You know, I have obsessively studied this case for six years. Really? Oh yeah, gotta say it. And you know, like everyone else out there, I run into the same unanswered questions that many of us have, but something about the past couple weeks has made me in particularly sick just at how much, especially for this administration,

what a left turn it's taken with just like veering off the road into the, oh, you know, Trump's literally like, well, this is a boring, he said things like, this is a boring case, I know why no one cares. It was invented by Obama, which is the funniest thing, I think, not funny, the stupidest thing that he said, and that's really saying something. You know,

Jeffrey Epstein was seen around a lot of people, and unfortunately he was quite good at it. Eventually he did himself in because he got a little bit of fame and I guess fell victim to the same thing a lot of people fall victim to, he liked it. And felt like he was invincible, and luckily, you know, some great detectives in Florida were able to catch him

and then he got this crazy sweetheart deal, but, you know, eventually gets taken down. The problem is that we never get to hear from him because, of course, you know, he dies mysteriously in prison. But you're talking about a guy who ran into circles just to say he ran into circles, which means that there are plenty of people that circles just to say he ran into circles, which means that there are plenty of people that he just took a picture with one time who didn't even

know him, but just happened to be at the same place who will have to answer for that for the rest of their life. And those people, of which we're not even sure who's who, I empathize with that. That's a bad place to be. But then there's people, powerful people, cross-culture, industry, whatever, who he did have, he was friends with and who did spend time with him. And you know what, some of them,

they might have not been spending time with 25-year-old models either, dare I say. They might have been full-blown like him, and I don't need to paint that picture, I think everyone knows what I'm talking about. But it has been particularly galling to see the complete denial of Trump and I guess the people around him who might be being told what to do. So I don't even know what to think of that.

That's happened. And, you know, we've seen the, I guess the twist of the knife happen even more when they're the one thing they are claiming to be transparent about after telling us these files don't exist, which is total bullshit, is they're like, well, here's the video we were telling you about of Epstein in prison. And yeah, this is proof he killed himself. We don't see anything. You see a guy on a grainy screen walk back off camera somewhere into the prison and oh by the way the DNA of you know

The the the technological world which is metadata and Joe deeps term not mine I mean as brilliantly put so let's get you some bread it there You know as if we're not gonna figure out the public's not gonna figure out on publicly available video as you made it that there's three Minutes missing. It's just gall. Yeah, and you you made it that there's three minutes missing. It's just galling. And you have looked at this case for a long time from the perspective of your expertise, which is, as I said, you have a guy that the government alleges killed himself in a jail cell. And according to the evidence that you found, the images that Joseph showed me off camera, I'm not going to show on video because then this video will get demonetized,

but you can find it online if you type in some of it, at least you can type in 60 minutes. Yeah. Everything I've seen is actually, um, and this is from several years ago. There are multiple screenshots that are out there of, of what, uh, you know, of this information that, that 60 minutes had come in two years ago. And then you couple that with what Dr. Bodden said, because he was present, you know, at the examination, the post-mortem examination, at the behest, by the way, of the family.

He was there representing the family. The Epstein family. Yeah, the Epstein family's brother in particular, who he drew his own independent conclusions relative to what he was seeing before his eyes. He did not arrive at the same conclusions that the chief medical examiner, Dr. Sampson, I think is her name, for the OCME in New York came to. And I gotta tell ya, if I'm listing in any direction,

it would have to be toward Dr. Bodden. And I've said this before, I'll say it again, when you begin to think about the method in which he, that he utilized in order to take his own life, I think the biggest question I have, in which he, that he utilized in order to take his own life. I think the biggest question I have, because I've worked cases inside of jails before, okay? I mean, it happens, you go in there, it's a horrible environment to have to work a case in.

And that's only provided that the body is still there, okay? Many times, if they get to the body or the person soon enough, they'll, they'll roll them out. They'll run a code on them and take them to the local hospital. They did that in Epstein's case though. There was, he was obviously dead at the time they were moved him from that cell. You know, he's cyanotic, he's cold to touch. You know, I, I just. I don't think that there was much there to save. But because, again, here's that word contextualizing, because the body is out of the cell by the time

the OCME investigators get there and take pictures of it. All they're left is, all they're left with is this human pigsty of a place that he was living in. I got to tell you one of the things that shocked me even more so than probably what Biden had said in the injuries, I couldn't get over how filthy this place was. And I'm by far not the most fastidious person. All right. I don't make my bed every morning. You know, I'm just not one of those people. But when you see the cell, it looked like a tornado had gone through there.

There are ripped up bits of cloth, sheets, clothing. There's pill bottles displayed up on the empty top rack where there's no mattress up there, but there are pill bottles up there. There's a CPAP machine in the cell itself. It's just filthy and disordered. I mean, really dirty. You know, you always have this vision, I think, almost like Shawshank maybe, that when, if they come by to check the cell,

things are gonna be ordered. Because, you know, the order in a physical environment is kind of indicative of what's going on inside your brain. And if this is any indication, this guy looked like a, he was living like a madman. I mean, everything was ripped to shreds in there. And no, I don't believe that this was like an effort on the part of the team that came in to try to resuscitate him. Uh, they did get him intubated, which means they put a tube down his throat.

I saw that image from the hospital. But one of the most striking things is that he has got a ligature mark, or what appears to be a ligature mark, on his neck. And if you look at it closely, it almost looks like it's been potentially readjusted a couple of times. Re-adjusted? Yeah, you've got they're kind of overlapping. It looks like two separate marks on one level. It's dried, abraded, which is what you might expect to see with a ligature where it rubs down to that layer of skin so that it almost, it's not like a scab,

but you can tell that the top layer of the epidermis has been affected so that the dermis itself is beginning to dry out. It's got a yellowed appearance to it, kind of red, a bit inflamed. He's cyanotic, which means from the mark of the ligature up, he looks like an eggplant. He's purple, okay, which is oxygen deprivation, which you can get either with hanging or you can get with

manual strangulation. The problem with his case is, is that this ligature mark that he has, and I plead with everybody please go look at this image you don't have to believe me you know call me a liar I don't care is inferior to his hyoid bone a hyoid bone is the key here the hyoid exists way up in your neck if you'll find your Adam's apple right here and you go superior to it about an inch, your hyoid sits right about here. Some people will say it's a, pathologists say,

it's a bird-like structure. It looks like a horseshoe to me. It's got two greater horns and two lesser horns. It's the only non-articulating bone in the human body. That means it doesn't communicate with any other bone, bony structure in the body. The sole purpose of the hyoid is to anchor the tongue in the back of the throat. That's why it's there. Well, the right greater horn horn of Epstein's hyoid is snapped. It's fractured. You don't commonly see that in hangings. Commonly. Right. Commonly see that. No, you do not. You see that in manual

strangulations, okay? Because you have to go so high up like this in order to facilitate it. There's a couple of different strangulations. Okay. I'm just going to give you a brief, sorry. Don't follow these directions out there. This is educational, not inspirational. Yeah. And I'm talking about from a homicidal standpoint.

So there you go. I've qualified it even further. Actually Joseph, can we just switch out Joe's computer real fast? Absolutely. And then we'll do this full explanation. Can I go to the restroom real quick? Absolutely, we'll be right back. All right, we're back.

What was that, you were just about to take us through the multiple forms of strangulation. I think it was, right? Yeah, and so when I'm, right now, as I'm talking to you, everybody's made a big deal out of Epstein, and this is something other than a suicide. You take the idea that the fractured hyoid, again I reference this thing is way, way up in the neck.

It's not something that you commonly see with a hanging. As a matter of fact, before I tell you about the two forms I'm going to talk about, do you know the only time I have ever seen a non-hanging, or let me rephrase that, start over, strike that. The only time I've ever seen a fractured hyoid as a result of something other than a manual strangulation, I had a guy that went over an off ramp on I-10 in New Orleans in like a 1967, 68 Pontiac that had the gigantic steering wheel. He was not belted, he went over, three stories dropped, and his throat hit gigantic steering wheel. He was not belted, he went over three stories dropped,

and his throat hit the steering wheel at the 12 o'clock position right here, and it fractured his hyoid. Every other one I've ever seen has been as a result of a manual strangulation. And it's one of the things that we, it's one of the first things that we look for at autopsy, because when you reflect the neck and the way this

happens just so you understand the tongue's coming out so we cut through the bottom floor of the soft palate and after we have the skin reflected we trim this out and then pull down like this the The tongue comes out with the trachea, the esophagus is there, you get further down, you've got the aorta that branches off of the heart. But anyway, through this area, so we're gonna look at everything that's called on block and we're gonna look at this thing on block

and take a look at it. And up in this region, one of the things that we'll see is if it is fractured, you'll see a little focal area of hemorrhage right here in soft tissue. The other thing you're going to see are going to be what are referred to as strap muscle hemorrhages, these muscles that kind of lie over your neck. They're kind of banded like that. And you look for hemorrhage in there, and that's direct pressure that's being applied. So with that framework in place, with manual strangulation, most of the time, you're either talking about a C-clamp, which is right here, where you literally grab the larynx and you squeeze.

That has a real, as you can imagine, cartilaginous body's in here. You've got this crushing effect. It takes place and you're you're not just Compromised in the airway. You're actually crushing the larynx at the same time. The other thing that we see Are called throttlings throttlings are classic like movie like you see this you can either do it anteriorly where you're coming at the individuals like this or like some creepy 1930s monster movie. They come up from behind and squeeze like that. That way you get really high up on the neck. Nooses most of the time are very low when an individual is supported like this and the

primary weight of the body is supported in this one focal area you know where it kind of dips down the individual hangs there and you can have either suspended hangings partially suspended hangings And suspended hanging is specifically what it says. A person is tied off. You have a hard point. The ligature is tied off. Noose is put on the neck and the individual will be suspended hanging in the air, you know, like this and they'll asphyxiate that way You can actually have people that will sit down on the floor And I've had many of these that will sit down on the floor with a ligature around their neck They don't make any effort to get it off their neck

There's they have tremendous will in order to follow through with this does happen Isn't that how Robin Williams? Yeah his his was attached to a doorknob by the way, probably arguably, one of the most well-written, um, medical legal death reports you'll ever read in your life. Robin Williams. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Go to autopsies.org. I think it's the name of it. Very well written. The investigator did a, uh, just a, it's a, it is a textbook example of how you should write a report. And I know this horribly gruesome and that sort of thing.

And I love Robin Williams, but I'm just saying clinically, if you're, if you want to know how it should be done, that's how it should be done. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's fascinating. And then you've got, you know, autorotic cases out there. I'm thinking about the kerating guy, you know, some people said Michael Hutchins from in got, you know, auto erotic cases out there. I'm thinking about the kerating guy, you know, some people said Michael Hutchins from in excess, you know, over the course of period of time, either way, those were asphyxial deaths. And there's a lot of them over a period of time

with hangings and this sort of thing. But then you have this group where it's required, they're not using their hands they're using a ligature and ligature can be made out of anything a belt a bit of clothing a sheet it obviously a rope there's any number of things and these are items of you know an things and these are items you know an electrical cord these are items that are found in everyone's home not everybody has a gun all right right so this was America haha no kidding yeah

well in my little slice of when when I work when I used to work, uh, uh, suicides, the second leading, uh, cause was going to be hanging, uh, right behind guns. Guns are convenient, um, and they're obviously lethal, but hanging was right there. Uh, so we work a lot of these cases. So with that said, you know, Bodden has seen hundreds, if not thousands of ligature strangulation cases over the course of his career. He is preeminent in this. He's worked a lot of jailhouse deaths. That's why, you know, a lot of his points that he made about the Epstein case, I got

to tell you, Julian, I believe them. I believe them because it's the evidence is there that this could be something other than as advertised. Why do you? This was the question on the tip of my tongue. Why do you think Samson, the New York examiner with bot and right there who came to a different conclusion, why do you think she came to the conclusion that he killed himself when you had the highway bone fracture? I have no idea. And one of, um,

she made a statement that it is possible to see fractured hyoids in, um, in suicidal hangings as well as homicidal strangulations that you can, but you do not see them in my experience, at least. And I guess in Dr. Bodden's experience, you don't see them to the same degree. It's an, it's an outlier. Okay. If you, if you're talking about fractured hyoids and hanging, it's just not something that you see every single day. All right. That's what's so amazing about this. Now her staff went to the scene, but the body was not there at the scene. Remember the guard claimed that he went

into the cell and found Epstein with, I think said that he was hanging by the literature and he cut it. There's none of the, there were two nooses that had been tied in there. Neither one of them showed evidence of tool marks. Neither one of them had been cut. So you have to be able to explain that. And here's another thing. If their supposition is that he tied off

onto the top bunk, which everybody knows what a bunk bed looks like. These are no different. They're metal, but they're not like some kind of... it's not like it's a story high. If he tied off, let's say, on the top bunk and flung himself off of this thing with a, a ligature that's fashioned out of this, this, uh, orange cloth that the clothing is made out of and that sort of thing. He could not have had sufficient force, could not have been generated for him to have dropped that short of distance and

achieved this kind of fracture that high up, particularly with ligature marks. So it's not possible. No, I don't think so. Not so inferior to, to the location of the fracture. That that's, that's what has got everybody in, in my world that I, you know, kind of talk to, that's what has got people kind of jacked up about this and saying that this is, this is the kind of thing that if you got 10 of them in your career, you would write a paper about and say, wow, yeah, I had a, had suicidal hanging and fractured hyoids. Yeah. Let's, let's look over my 25 year career and see how many we've had. And everybody's

sitting in a conference somewhere in a dark conference room with it thing lighted up on the board and everybody's going Wow, you know, this is something that would you know that would generate conversation now is it possible You said the hyoid bone is used to hold the tongue in place, right? Yeah So if let's say I was alive and I fractured my hyoid bone, I'd be talking weird, right? Oh, yeah Yeah, you definitely would be and it'd be incredibly painful. Yeah All right. So I'm gonna strike the question I had cuz I Medically like I I'm just not sure I'm not familiar with it what I was gonna ask had to do with

They claimed he had tried to commit suicide before and I'm like, well, maybe if he had tried to commit suicide, he bruised it badly or something. So could it easily, but that wouldn't make sense because he would have been in significant pain in talking. Well, I've had other people that have made comments about what to how brittle were his bones at the age that he was at? Okay, could this thing have not required as much pressure and still have fractured like this? I guess it's within the realm of possibility. But again, if you're talking about the ligature, which again no one has been able to see because it was quote-unquote cut away. So they didn't go into the

emergency room and this thing is in place, all right? As a matter of fact, one of the 60 minute images, when you see it, it's a picture of him lying in a supine position on a gurney in the emergency room and he's got a sea collar on and he's intubated. That's what you see there. And he's wearing what we used to call a Johnny coat, which is the hospital gown, you know, open in the back.

Um, it just, it, it just doesn't sit right. It doesn't feel right. It's, uh, it would be, uh, certainly, uh, academically, it's an interesting finding if that's what you're claiming that it is. There are a couple other things relative to to him as well. He's got a rather pronounced contusion also at the base of his neck, kind of where the base of your neck your shoulder converge right here. And since we, I don't know, I'm really curious as to what kind of age the pathologist put on this contusion

at the base of his neck and maybe what, yeah, like is it a contusion that is resolving? Like, you know, just like when we get a bruise at some point in time, you see how it goes through different color phases. It goes from red to kind of blue, purplish, then it gets into that kind of green and then discussing yellow color as it's, and that's one of the things that we use, for instance,

when we're working on child abuse cases, because you'll have that fatal event with a child abuse case. And one of the things you go back is you age contusions, for instance, if it's ongoing child abuse. So you can see a kid that has like over, overlying injuries, they've got one bruise that's yellow, one that's green, maybe one that's purple.

You know that bruising and this abuse has been widespread and it's involving multiple surfaces of the body. And so you age those bruises. Everything I've heard from whether it be guys like you taking us through the scientific elements of it or guys who have looked at the case extensively and have investigated other cases in the past that you know have other patterns that could be parallel or similar to this it just seems like I Don't want to just jump to like the wildest most fun theory It seems like this is exactly what we're all looking at a A guy was killed and they're telling us he wasn't.

And thank you, have a great day. Yeah. Yeah, and that's the thing. I don't see how you can look at this and not at least question these injuries and the scenario that we're being given. And also, I think, again, back to, you know, my fallback position as a death investigator, as a death investigator is the idea of the postmortem changes. How long had he actually been down? Body temperature, all these sorts of things. Degree of fixation of postmortem levity, distribution of levity

patterns and that's stuff that has to be, it's best assessed at the scene. I guess you could assess it at the emergency room. You can assess it at the morgue because by the time a body makes it to the morgue and is laying on a tray, again, all of that data is shot. It's pretty much worthless at that point in time. And if this is off record and you can't share it, no problem, but you have a personal relationship with Dr. Bod and known him for years now. Has he given you like, I don't know, like exasperated thoughts about just beyond

his actual scientific findings, just like this guy, somebody killed him and they're covering it up? Like, has he said something directly like that to guy, somebody killed him and they're covering it up? Like has he said something directly like that to you, implying like there's forces at play here that are just above all of our pay grades? For this purpose, I have not made any kind of attempt to communicate with him about Epstein at all. I've based everything, all of the conclusions I've drawn, based upon the photographic record, what he has said,

and then what Samson has said. And I've probably seen Dr. Baudin probably three times in social settings, and that's at CrimeCon. Three separate times since he did this examination, I would imagine. It's hard to, hard to remember. And I would never ask him about this because first off he's representing Epstein's family and it's really none of my damn business. But if I ever had an opportunity,

maybe someday I would love to have that conversation with him and really dig into this. Because you know, Bodden's got, he's got a brilliant mind the way he views the world. And he has seen so much. Everything. Yeah.

I mean, JFK, MLK, George Floyd, Jeffrey Epstein. RFK. RFK. Yeah. Like, he did all these. Yeah, he has. And he's consulted on so many things. You know, and you know me, I'm a big fan of Cyril Wecht, too.

God rest his soul, Dr. Wecht has gone on now. But, you know, I felt the same way, you know, having conversations with Dr. Weck, particularly as it applied to JFK, you know, because you know how he felt about JFK. He was the only, the first and maybe the only person that was ever allowed to give a lecture at the museum, at the book depository museum that was contrary to what the standard narrative is. And that was a groundbreaking moment, you know, and he, he, he put forth his, his theories about it at that point in time. So yeah, it's not for the, uh, as far as forensic

pathologists are concerned, it's not for the faint of heart. You have to have a lot of intestinal fortitude and be very brave to put these things forward. But as long as you stick with the science, I think that that's very important. That's the key. That is the key. You know, are you following? And, and I look, forget even just science. When you're dealing with any level of facts, I do my best with that too. I'm sure I fall short sometimes, but I try to deal with what's not, what's the most juicy outcome and let's, let's turn it there. I try to deal with, well not what's the most juicy outcome and let's let's turn it there.

I try to deal with what do we know here? Yeah. And sometimes it does line up with, well, that is the juicy outcome because that that looks fucking crazy what's happening. But you have to you have to have try to have that that discipline to to let the evidence guide you. You have to think probably the most disappointing thing about this entire case is that, and it is fascinating, Julian, the fact that this death took place in arguably one of the most controlled environments

in New York. When you think about, no, I mean, think about, this guy's incarcerated in a federal facility. And you know, now we've gone from scientific to the circumstantial evidence is there and the circumstantial evidence is not there. You know, you it's, you know, that, that train left the station relative to these weird goings onon with accountability people sleeping on the job cameras not working all these sorts of things I mean, it's like a perfect storm. And so At the end of the day, you've got dr. Bodden and you've got dr. Sampson and of course bottoms

His opinion matters to me that matters to a lot of other people but the official opinion is that of the chief Medical exam for the city of New York. Yeah, they get to have the official they do they do You don't know you don't know who said hey listen up lady. This is what you're gonna find Uh, well, maybe I don't know Listen a lot of people wanted that guy dead But what one other thing before I get you out of here, as always, this has been incredible today. But I would be remiss to not mention that

since the last time you and I talked on camera, they did release some JFK files. And the last time you and I talked on camera, we did like four and a half hours on... I mean, you brought your binder with you since you were 15 with all that shit. You were ready... It was like a last, I was worried you had like cancer. This was like a last Testament or something. You were laying it all out.

That was incredible. Get everybody together, surround the table. Yeah. Like, all right, I've left it there, you know, but what, you know, did, was there anything in there? There was no great revelations. And I think that anybody that, that, and look, I'm kind of parroting what other people are saying. I, you know, if there's anybody out there that thought that there was going to be, you know, a big X marks the spot and this is who did this.

Um, it's, it's just not there. The fact remains is that this was arguably, um, and I'm speaking now from my perspective as a medical legal death investigator and a forensic scientist, arguably the worst autopsy ever conducted in the history of and with just total buffoonery involved in it. And the best evidence of that is I think, and I know I touched on this before, is Tom Noguchi's response in LA when RFK died. He invited people, specifically forensic pathologists, to come and attend because this had happened. He knew what had happened with JFK. And not everybody agrees

with what happened at the scene with RFK. There are documents that are supposed to be released relative to that. But what Tom Noguchi did, who's one of my big heroes, he allowed, he, you know, what's the old adage about pulling back the curtain and darkness and sunshine kind of purifies everything? He understood that and that he knew that he had to have those people present for that or was going to turn into the same kind of deal as it had before with his brother. And he did not want that. Well, cynically, I feel like any promises we get from anyone that says, we're going to give you the information about insert crazy thing that happened in history here,

it ain't going to happen. Have we even gotten the Abraham Lincoln documents? I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't know what happened at the bottom of Ford Theater. No, I don't either. One of the cases I've been thinking about doing recently is probably going to be Garfield is next up because he, I always forgot he got whacked. Well yeah. And he died as a result of dirty hands too. It's the first time that a semblance of an X-ray machine was used. They to locate the projectile and you And you've got these guys with their filthy

Peter beaters, you know, digging into the defect and it's called a Peter beater, digging into, digging into the, the, this poor man's wounds. And of course he, you know, he, he collapses, you know, he's not long for this world. Um, and you know, you can say all you want to, you know, they didn't understand that microbial world at that point in time, but, um, good chance he may have survived. Um, don't know what his quality of life would have been like, but yeah, I've always been fascinated by Garfield's death and not to mention Lincoln's son was there when Garfield was shot. Uh, yeah.

And he was also, I think he was also present for McKinley's as well. All right. All right. That's enough. That's enough. We're gonna be here all day. Fuck. I want the Lincoln Files. JSM, you got body bags. We'll have the show linked down below. Thank you, brother. It's the best podcast in the game

for really anything in true crime. So can't recommend it enough to people, but it is always a pleasure to talk with you, sir. Yeah. Best to you, man. Thanks so much. All right. Until next time, everybody else, you know what it is.

Give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace. Thank you guys for watching the episode. If you haven't already, please hit that subscribe button and smash that like button on the video. They're both a huge, huge help. And if you would like to follow me on Instagram and X, those links are in my description below.