Julian Dorey Podcast - #328 - North Korean Escapee Reveals CHILLING Details of his Escape | Hyun-Seung Lee

Episode Date: August 12, 2025

SPONSORS: 1) MOOD: Discover your perfect mood and get 20% off your first order at https://mood.com and use code JULAN at check out! 2) Control Body Odor ANYWHERE with @shop.mando and get 20% off + free shipping with promo code JULIAN at shopmando.com ! #mandopod WATCH PART 1 W/ HYUN-SEUNG LEE: https://open.spotify.com/episode/69c87hJDVHTeFjW0zdl1Cg?si=L-P78bpUTRmlCCzHZTj46Q PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/JulianDorey (***TIMESTAMPS in Description Below) ~ Hyun-Seung Lee is a former DPRK businessman and chair of the Kim Il Sung Socialist Youth League branch in Dalian, China. A series of purges by Kim Jong Un forced him and his entire family to defect in late 2014, making their way first to South Korea then to the United States. Lee now works as a director for One Korea Network and a fellow of North Korean studies at the Global Peace Foundation, and he has interned with the Foundation for Defense of Democracies. HYUN-SEUNG'S LINKS: YT: https://www.youtube.com/c/Pyonghattan FB: https://www.facebook.com/MrNorthKorea X: https://x.com/LeeHyunSeung85 IG: https://www.instagram.com/mr.northkorea/ WEBSITE: https://give.globalpeace.org/campaign/695826/donate FOLLOW JULIAN DOREY INSTAGRAM (Podcast): https://www.instagram.com/juliandoreypodcast/ INSTAGRAM (Personal): https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey/ X: https://twitter.com/julianddorey JULIAN YT CHANNELS - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Clips YT: https://www.youtube.com/@juliandoreyclips - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Daily YT: https://www.youtube.com/@JulianDoreyDaily - SUBSCRIBE to Best of JDP: https://www.youtube.com/@bestofJDP ****TIMESTAMPS**** 00:00:00 – China & Military Service, Workers Party, Boot Camp, Pride in Serving 00:11:42 – Unit Dispatch, Propaganda, Protecting Leader, Supreme Family Pins 00:23:30 – Camaraderie, Special Forces, Farming, Morse Code, Parade Marching, Mother Singer 00:34:51 – Sister, Banned Words, Pop Star Executions, China-NK Weapons, Troops to Russia 00:46:07 – Weapons & Amm0 to Russia, Discharge, State TV, Propaganda Dept., Leader Focus 00:56:49 – Propaganda with Limited Electricity, The 3rd Channel, 1984 Parallels, Foreign Media, Smuggled USBs, Free Healthcare, Failed Communism 01:07:15 – Bribes for Treatment, Hospital Neglect, COVID D3aths, Post-Service, Studying in China 01:17:12 – Life in China, Father’s Realization, First Hamburger, China’s Progress, Prison Camps 01:27:57 – Killings & Imprisonment, 3-Gen Punishment, Kim Jong Il D3ath, Defection, “No Future” 01:37:35 – Father’s Transition, Defection Help, Escaping NK & China, 24-Hour Notice 01:46:22 – ‘Missing’ Status, Family Leverage, Moving to US 02:00:09 – Leaving South Korea, Arriving US, Living in DC, Leaders Assembly, Fear for Life 02:10:34 – Texas Visit, Guns, Hope for NK, Trump Strategy, Iran Strike Threat, Regime Change 02:23:15 – NK Sympathizers in California, Sanctions Blame, Spirituality in Freedom 02:30:07 – Hyun's Work CREDITS: - Host, Editor & Producer: Julian Dorey - COO, Producer & Editor: Alessi Allaman - https://www.youtube.com/@UCyLKzv5fKxGmVQg3cMJJzyQ - In-Studio Producer: Joey Deef - https://www.instagram.com/joeydeef/ Julian Dorey Podcast Episode 328 - Hyun-Seung Lee Music by Artlist.io Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

People called me like a traitor. The real person who betrayed North Korean was the Kim's family. In 2013, North Korean leader Kim Jong-un executed a dozen popular singers. Among the victims was Kim's ex-girlfriend, the pop propaganda singer, accused of videotaping themselves having sacked and selling the videos. Are those real? No, people buy them because they don't understand the system. The whole crew executed because they're talking about the leader's family.

Criticism against the leader. I lost several friends. My dad too, my sisters too. My sister's roommate. She was up to the class. The North Korean security agents came and they grabbed her that took her. We never found out today. Her father was walking close to Kim Jong's ankle.

Entire family gone called the three-generation punishment. If we are under missing person, North Korean regime couldn't punish my family. So we are escaping this country. I could sense that there are several guys following us. We all terrified. And that moment... Hey guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five-stop. review they're both a huge huge help thank you now we're going to get to you guys ending up

defecting and all that but you and i have been talking about this throughout the day how there there's a couple key things well really a few key things one of them we already cover which is that You did foreign language training in Pyongyang and in the school there. So you get some access to like, I guess, other cultures in a very small way, albeit. But the other two things are prior to you defecting is that you spend a lot of time in China, which I want to dig into more. I want to touch that for a minute. And you spent time in the military. Yep.

In North Korea, which makes you also as one of the sub 300 defectors who's in the United States. which is not many, you seem to be more of a rarity like you understand from inside what the military is like. So I do want to dig into that a lot. But first of all, how did you, it was China first and then the military first and then I, after discharging from the military, I went to China. Okay. So let's do this in order then. How do you had mentioned earlier, the military in a country of 25 million people is literally like I think 1.3 million people. Okay. So it's huge. And you had also said that the lowest class, what's it called, the hostile class? Yeah.

Is not even permitted to serve in the military. So how many people does that, let's, like, how many people does that preclude right away? I would say it's less than 5%. Okay. But it's increased a little bit because, you know, we have around the 50,000 defectors right now, escapees across the world. So the majority, the people? population though is still military. Still accessible to the military service. Okay. And that means

it's somewhat of a requirement too that you serve, right? It's mandatory service for men and women. A man should serve for 10 years and female should serve like five. I'm not quite sure the duration, but five years probably. Yeah. Okay. So does that start at 18? 17. 17. So what's the process? You're 17 years old. Now you reach your mandatory age. How does it work? And what was your first exposure?

What was it like going into the military there? So after graduation from high school, and you have a choice. And you get the citizenship, like, as an adult, and you can drink and you can purchase a cigarette. So now you are traded as a adult from 17. And then you can choose your job by most North Korean kids choose to serve military first because it's a mandatory service and also it's the way they can get the membership of North Korea Workers Party. As I mentioned earlier, the membership is a critical part for their career development. So if you serve military earlier, then there is a high chance to get the membership earlier.

So eventually when you discharging from the military, like at age of 26 or 27, you already got the membership. But if you don't serve the military, then there was less chance to become a member of the workers' party. Even though you become a 30 or 35, if you don't have experience with the military, and normally there's a very less chance to get the membership. So many kids choose the military service first. Got it. Okay. So when you go in, is there like a, I assume, a boot camp to start? What was that experience?

So every district and then every, the county has military mobilization, you know, division, something like that department. So they run the system and then they check your body. and then if you have a, I mean, taller than other people, like some tall hate and also physically, like, ready, like some people who, some, you know, kids who, you know, played sports. Yes. And they have more physically built than other people, right? So, the other kids choosing to the special force. And then other than other people, like smaller and then not. sports experience they are allocated to the more like a normal unit but it could be up to the

front line like you know the first call fifth call fourth call the other whole like the front line calls okay so yeah but as I said earlier the the more taller guys physically ready guys they are transferred to the stone core but after the the the physical examination and then you'll be delivered to the like the unit you were you know so I would say okay so you will be you'll be sent the camp so I sent I was sent to four school camp and then you have a training for three months there and what kinds of things are you doing and obviously a lot of physical stuff, but what does it look like? Yeah, from the beginning basics, like, you know, how to salute,

how to, you know, marching, how to act in the military camp, and then how to make a unified movement, like. So more like basics, including political ideology, like studying, and then how to utilize. the system, military system. And then during the basic training, we also got trained with the weapons, how to clean, shoot, and assemble, right? And you had never held a gun before, right? No, no, no.

We used the guns, but no blitz. But we have to train, yes, we have to train how to assemble it, dismantle it, and then clean it, right? So that's the basic training. But we do training with the empty gun, like empty shooting, the aiming the training. How many guys are you in this three-month camp? No, just one AK-47, like North Korean style AK-47. No, no, I'm sorry. How many other people are in this camp with you?

Oh, each corp has a... We call it like the new recruit, recruit the battalion. So I would say, I total like 300, 400, 400. Okay. Yeah. Do you, you know, in America, when guys talk about training, not always, but in a lot of these types of situations, they talk about the camaraderie and the bond and the relationship building with the other guys, is there an ability to do that?

at all yeah yeah that's a main idea you so they want that yep they want that they want that they want us help each other and then they want make a core team of this the group but it's more like a basic training camp so after the basic training you'll be dispatched to a whole other unit so that's the real like opportunity make connections and then bond to each other did you feel i mean obviously this is a part of your citizen duty to come do this it's not like you had a choice but in starting to go through the training in a lot of ways it's symbolic you're 17 now you're learning how to handle a weapon you're doing something where you're joining something bigger than yourself obviously you haven't had a full awakening yet at this point as to the

problems completely politically with the country and all that. Is there a part of you that feels a sense of pride in what you're doing? Yep. I mean, you made a good point and I'm proud of myself serving the military. And then I, even though it's like North Korean military, I think military service always gives people a discipline and also ideas to, you know, serving people. And then also like share the you know the camaraderie and then you know relationship between the peers and the colleagues so um i don't think it's not all bad in north korea but i think it's um the military service give me a good um insights about the real people's life and also you know the disciplines. Yes. Yeah, during my military service, I also explore some, uh, in the local

area's life, right? And then I visited people's home and, you know, um, I watched, uh, what they are eating. So, um, you watch what they were eating. Yeah, because I wanted to see what they are eating, but, um, I was surprised too. Not many people have quality life. Right. Yeah. So your start, you have, as a city boy, you're now getting exposure to that. Yes. So Forscope is located in the west coast of North Korea. It's a conference with the South Korean Navy and military. So it's a rural area, right?

So it's the first time I actually went to rural area, you know, a really local area to expose the life of the real people. Did you see some of that starvation and some of that stuff that maybe your dad had seen? No, no. So I started serving from 2002, and that moment, North Korea has already overcome the starvation situation. So they'd overcome it. Overcoming. After the report of the 1990s starvation, there are lots of aid from United Nations. And also, in 2000, June, the North Korean leader and South Korean leader had the first ever into Korean summit.

And this guy, Kim Da Zhong, he got Nobel Peace Prize for that first meeting. The South Korean leader. South Korean leader. But the real beyond story is he gave Kim Jong ill $500 million in cash. and also provide $2 billion of aid so

now people are criticizing this is like you know Nobel Peace Prize was he bought it yeah and also

he gave Kim Jong-il opportunity to survive so like military when I was there every day

I ate South Korean rice yeah and then which we We, you know, trend that the other people we have to kill. Joe, how about that gummy I gave you last week? I don't remember anything that ever happened.

That is exactly the point. Did you know that there's an online cannabis company that ships federally legal THC right to your door? And that this company has found a way to combine THC with carefully selected functional ingredients to target nearly every mood and health concern you can think of? The company I'm talking about is mood.com and their incredible line of functional gummies. And today, you're going to be able to get 20% off your first. order at mood.com using promo code Julian at checkout. Forget one size fits all supplements that only get you high.

Mood's functional gummies are optimized to kick in in as little as 15 minutes and take it to the mood you're looking for. Just ask Joe here. Yep. Whether that's magic bind gummies for deep work and creativity, PMS support to ease cramps and balance mood swings, or their sexual euphoria gummies to help you feel ready for action and turn every touch into a full body experience.

Listen, you can find gummies that just get you high pretty much anywhere these days. Joe just bought one off a crackhead the other day. And it didn't really work that well. Exactly, so don't do that. And everything ships discreetly right to your door. Best of all, not only is every Mood product backed by a 100-day satisfaction guarantee, but as I mentioned, listeners today are going to get 20% off their first order using code Julian at checkout. So head to Mood.com, find the functional gummy that matches exactly what you're looking for,

and let mood help you discover your perfect mood. And once again, don't forget to use promo code Julian when you check out to save 20% off your first order. So Kim Jong-il actually then, if I'm understanding your insinuation here, he did use some of that funding to help distribute food to the people who didn't have it. Not the people, but he distributed the military.

Yes. But what I access to people is more military-related people. right so they have some sort of access to this resources and even military guys they sell those rights to the market so they are like a second-hand beneficiary right not directly distributed by the i got it yeah but uh it's something though it's something but still it should it should be like it goes to the people's us not the military or the government distribution so So the whole, like, the idea was changed, but still, like, something. Yeah.

Okay. So back to you being in the military, though. You do this initial three months. You get the basic training, and then they send you out to what your unit's going to be. Where was your unit? And actually, I'm sorry, before I get there, are they, is there any propagandizing of, like, the enemy that's going on in your earliest training? Meaning, are they talking about, like, the evil America? you're going to be fighting or the evil Japanese you're going to be fighting.

Yep. They're doing that. That's more like from like elementary preschool. Sure. Yeah. So we're educating that United States is the main enemy. And when you do, you know, sports games, you know, shooting or hitting like sports games with, you know, the, you know, the bats to shoot hitting, you have to put your soldier there and the hitting. And then, you know, you're a soldier there.

shooting with the, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the toys like that. So that's more, uh, long-term propaganda by the North Korean regime. And in the military, it's more severe. I was going to say, no, it ratches up a notch. You're cleaning out the AK-47 and you're fake aiming and they're like aim and fire at the American soldier. That's true. Yeah. Okay. So they have like a, uh, a dartboard of like George Bush's face or something like that. Yeah. Oh, really? They did. They did.

That's one dartboard we can get behind. They put President Bush's face and the South Korean President face there, and then, you know, many things. Even like, you know, later they, you know, criticize President Obama and like that. And even like, you know, they called Trump like old, like something like that.

And then Trump responded, Rockman like that. Oh, they called him old. Yeah, old, like something like that. They hit him on the age. Yeah. I can't. Can't say the real word, but they criticize every American, you know, president. Oh, bad.

You know, you know, like, in a real, like, the bad way. Yeah. Got to get him a dick chain. That would have been the best. But, all right, so you're sent out to your first unit, and where was that now? Was that also in a rural area? Yeah, it was in the same city. Okay.

In the west coast of North Korea. And it called Haju. What's it called? Haju, the city. How do you spell that? H-A-E D-U D-U

Let's see if we can pull that up Yeah Do we have a map of that, Joe Probably Yeah On Google Maps Yeah Yes, that's part

Okay, so that's enough So the sea is on the east side Obviously there So this is inland like you said Is that the Chinese border to the south? No, it's a Or that's South Korea I'm sorry

It's not border But that's the area of Hed city so it's a north korea there's no border between south and north with the head city has is the coastal town what what's this right here see how it goes white right there oh that's the sea open sea oh that's open sea yeah okay got it got it yeah you're you're sent there now at the what year is this at 2002 up to the uh the basic camp training three months so when you go there Are there at the time any North Korean soldiers deployed in a war zone or hot zone in other places in the world? No.

I was going to say. So there's no war going on. No. So they put you in your unit now. What are they saying they're training you for? Or do they not really say that? So in our military, we have one sentence. Military, we train thousand days for one day.

thousand days for one day so we train thousand days for one day battle so that's the basic you know slogan and another slogan is we have to protect the leader with our lives basically we have to guide him

you know sacrificing our lives so like that those slogans did you believe in that I mean it's not a believe or not you have to do it yes but in your heart did you actually think like yeah Yeah, let's go dive over.

You're like, oh, fuck that guy. But we never thought it's a real thing, and we never thought the reality. But I'm not sure if there were war or something similar situation, I would say some people would choose in that path. And then there was also cases that, you know, if there was a fire and there was some historical place of a Kim family regime and those people actually trying to save. the trees with the you know historical you know the spot and then they sacrifice their lives you know holding the king family portrait the small like you know the the pins right mm-hmm the every north korea should carry the pins of king family regime oh yeah that was something wali talked about there was like a pin system so if you didn't have it it was a problem yep

You have to carry pins in your left chest, like in your heart. You have to carry those King Family in your heart. That's the main idea of carrying the pins of King Family faces. But there was one rule that you cannot, I mean, damage the faces of King Family. So while they are dying, they actually took the pins off, the head, took the hands so that they can protect the faces of in family and then they were while they were burning in the you know fire the true story so while they're burning in the fire they take it out to protect the pins so they really believe I would say I'm not believe really believe in that but still it's more situational and also

they think it should it's the thing that they have to do it's more like a more brain But it's hard to believe that why people would do that, but still people choose in that, you know, pass. That's, but that's at such a level you're talking about when someone is literally about to die in a flame. Anything, any worries or fears or concerns you might have had while living to fear what could happen to you, meaning like thrown in a prison camp or execute or whatever it may be, that's out there. the window when you're at the moment of truth where like it's over the idea that a person even in that moment though would take off that pin and protect it in their hands so it didn't get damage tells me i don't mean i'm right it's just like that would seem like unfortunately

the brainwashing has at least subconsciously worked and they really believe yeah he's exactly right It's very unconsciously worked. And then they think that's the right thing to do. And even though some people, I heard that those people who attended execution, like real execution shooting people, you know, before they were dying, they are dying, there was an announcement like, you know, we are going to shoot them, right? They shoot them. They just, you know, shouting, like, you know, long leave the king family or like, you know.

The people getting killed. Yeah, getting killed and then, you know, respect the leader like that. So before, like, seconds before he died, they just, you know, trying to, like, I don't know, it's the, they were trying to, you know, survive or they are trying to really rebuild their loyalty, something like that. But that's the story. Some people do that. So, but. But not all people are, you know, brainwisted in such ways. So, like, yeah, the military is more intense training for ideological session.

So when you got to your unit, you'd said, obviously, the first training was three months and a lot of basic stuff. What was the training like once you were at your unit, and how long did that last? So later I moved to Force Corps Reconrazance Battalion Artillery Belconrason's Battalion And our mission is to Send coordinates of the

Enemy Artillery and enemy base Like important bases, right? Give them coordinates so that our artillery can launch the attack Against those military bases. So is this like a form of intelligence it seems like

but not intelligence but during the war like especially Korean war it worked so those are like an agent like us we went to military the enemy line crossed the enemy line we get the intel and then we

gave them coordinates hey here's like the South Korean artillery or US artillery so you should you know launch attack here are you saying you would cross yeah the enemy line yeah so you would cross the it's called the DMZ right yeah I never did but oh you never did I couldn't but our mission is like that okay yeah our mission is we need to

cross we have to cross the enemy line and give them real coordinates of the artillery base and then the other military base but you never did it because you we can it's a DMG it's not like yeah yeah so I don't understand why was that the mission if they know you're not going to do it. I mean, it's for war during the war. Okay. All right. They want to be able to say you know where you're going. Yep. Got it. Yeah. And then the coordinates always not like, you know, correct, 100% correct. So after launching the artillery, we have to tell them the differences. Hey, there's like a 300 meters gap or like 500 meters gap. So if I were like, you know, our, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, A friend launched the artillery against me.

If I die, then die. If I survive, then I have to tell them differences. That's the main mission for my battle in. Okay. Yeah. Now you got close with guys when you were there, because now you're in your unit. This is going to be your home. Yeah.

So I had a good relationship with them, and then they gave me training, right? And mostly physical training at the beginning. And then after year, I have to do, like. Like the Morse code training. We are using Morse code, by the way. Oh, Morse code? Yeah. The World War technique.

Yeah. Yeah. We don't have fancy gears like, you know, with the microphone and satellite image. No. But you train Morse code? Yeah. I had, I mean, I was supposed to do. But before that, I would transform to another, the unit later.

But, I mean, that's the main mission for us. Why were you transferred? I get more good environment. So later I transferred to the unit under the general chief of step, operational division. Okay. Yeah. This unit is more special. Would you call the special forces?

That's a special force. Yeah. And even like the artillery, the colonization battalion is also special force. So you were a special forces guy? Yeah. Wow But not this special The things I remember is

All the things I was You know doing was Like farming and then you know Collecting food That's another type of special That's true You got in the title That's what matters

What you put on the resume matters So most North Korean military soldiers Spend time to Helping farming Because we have to be on self-reliance. So, you know, like our unit in the local area, we have, you know, fields, coughs filled, and then sometimes by myself, I only got mission.

Hey, you should do this, you know, farming by ourselves. Other people, like a training, and then sometimes I only got mission. Sometimes the other guy did, you know, hold their farming. Like, yeah. There's obviously, I just keep thinking about this in the background. With 1.3 million people in the military in North Korea, you guys must have bases everywhere all over the whole country. Military, all over the country. Now, does the military also serve, are they in charge of the local police and the police forces, or is that totally separate?

Totally separate. Okay. But as you said, the military first, the policy, the military is the engine for economic development and construction. So we are often mobilized to construction projects. We are often mobilized to economic projects, like helping farming or, like, you know, other, you know, the, how do I say? Other government projects. Yeah. Got it.

And it sounds like obviously you were doing some of that, like you were saying. So that's a common thing. us people who are serving in the military to be called in to do that because that's what they rely on to make the infrastructure of the country go. That's true. Okay. But during our training, like, we have a two session every year, like summer training and winter training.

The summer training, it took, like, more than months, and then we actually lead our camp and then, you know, the field of training. So we should carry 20 kilograms of the whole. like set of the gears but we don't allow to use the fancy gears. We don't have fancy gears at the time. So

not basically carrying backpack and then put a lot of stuff and then equivalent to 20 kilograms and then carrying our guns, not bullets. Yeah. So we have to march

like more than many kilometers. I was going to say you're I do have to say yeah North Korean marching is legit bro like y'all are stepping when I look at our marching we're not on that level for parade but it's out the the real like you know the military real like session is not the it's not that good but you just ruined it no no no no no that's parade marching is special training it's you know they get to six months training yeah to do that yeah to do that don't they have like

They put like pins right here So if your neck moves a little bit You get stabbed by a pin That's the true story That's the true story Did you ever have to do that? No, I was offered And then I never, you know

Because The marching is A real intense movement When you put the face Let me do So when you He's demonstrating off camera everybody Yeah

Can we see it? Yeah Yeah, keep you So when you low down This foot You have to kick up this bit. So you have to move your whole body. And then this makes your whole intestine, you know, keep lower.

And then you will get sick later. So a lot of people suffered from the whole like your, the whole like body parts, you know, like, how do I say? Collapsing gradually. So it took like three months, up to six months. So not many people try to attend Still avoid like me You know But for some people like you know

Middle class kids They get some reward for that Attending that It's kind of honor to attend the parade So they You know some people apply But like me and then I mean I don't need of those

You know the title so Right yeah You've heard me talk before About how annoying it is for me to pack when I got to run out of here last minute and go down to the shore. And as I've said, every single time I'm forgetting some sort of toilet tree and I got to make a trip to CVS once I get down there. But now with Mando's acidified 4-1 cleansing bar, I know I got a bunch of toilet trees checked

off my list at once. The cleansing bar is shampoo, face wash, body wash, and deodorant all in one bar. It simplifies your whole hygiene routine and saves space in your bag for all the fun stuff. And if you're someone who sweats a lot, I will say Mando's sweat control stick is going to help a lot. The stick is made just for your underarms and stops odor before it starts. And obviously, it fights sweat, so it's double protection. I'm one of those people that in the summer especially likes to go out and about, go for walks where inevitably I'm going to work up a sweat. And I've always been paranoid in the past about needing to reapply deodorant. But now with

Mando, I know I'll put it on once in the morning and I'm good to go. Mando is clinically proven to block odor all day and control odor for up to 72 hours. Furthermore, all products are baking soda free and paraben free. Mando's starter pack is perfect for all new customers. It comes with a solid stick deodorant, cream tube deodorant, two free products of your choice, like mini body wash and deodorant wipes and free shipping. As a special offer for my listeners, new customers are going to get 20% off at shopmando.com. Link in description below using my code Julian at checkout. Once again, use code Julian at shopmando.com for 20% off sitewide and free shipping. That's S-H-O-P-M-A-A-A. P-N-D-O.com. Please support our show and tell them I sent you. Mando's got you covered. Protect

your pits. Smell great doing it. Were you, did, did you ever get like leave time to be able to go home too? Yeah, they have some vacation time. What did your parents think? I mean, obviously you were required to do it, but were they like proud of your military service? What was that conversation like? No, they think it's very normal because they serve the military too. Yeah. Even my mom served the military. Your mom did too. So my mom served more than five years. But she was more like a military propaganda singer. A singer? Yeah, she was a singer, professional singer.

In the military? Yes, in the military. Is that like when they'd have like the drummers going into battle and said they got singers going into battle? Like how does this work? Kind of. But every unit like a fourth school, fifth school, they have a military propaganda unit.

So your mom had pipes? Yeah. Wow. She was a singer there. And anyway, so very normal reactions, oh, yeah, I used to serve military. They think it's very, you know, a normal thing. And they treat me as like, oh, good job. Yeah. So.

You know what I forgot to ask you about earlier? We never got to it. You're your sister. You had one sibling. She was, how much younger was she than you? Or is she than you? She was six years younger than me. Okay.

Yeah. So you're like, your definition of an older brother there. Yeah. not like you guys are extremely close in age. You guys had a really good relationship, though, growing up? Yeah. Did you feel really protective of her? Yeah.

That's what all brought us to. Yeah. As you got older, this is a little tangent right here, but let's stay with it. As you got older and you started to see the dangers that existed, specifically being someone that lives in North Korea and what goes with that, did you have any conversations with her? her about that or are you also worried about the house is being bugged once again no um so when she was in high school she um went to china right and so i think my family went to china 2005 and then the year

i was discharged from the military so she was um you know 14 something like that so she never understood the political dynamics in home and other the areas. So, I mean, we never told those stuff, but

yeah, it's too only for her to realize those stuff. She figured it out on her own. She figured it out later. It's very natural. And then, you know, she we figure out by ourselves

oh, this word we shouldn't say. this sentence should be in trouble I mean we could have been in trouble saying this sentence like that wait there would be banned words and stuff what might be an example of that like criticism against the leader

talking about the leader's family like even like oh Kim Jong-un like the current leader has a fear with you know other people before the marriage that's you know can't talk about that no the whole crew executed

because of that you get executed Yeah, 2013, there was a band called the Galaxy Band. They were friends of the First Lady because they gossiping Kim Jong's relationship before becoming leader and the marriage to First Lady now, the North Korean First Lady Lady. Whole crew was executed.

Whoa. It's like nine people, something like that. Just for talking about it? they said they you know announced that oh they possesses porn they possesses bible and they you know fascinated by like a market economy capitalism like they put the old charges but yes so they trumped up everything around it but the core reason is they gossiping the relationship now did people again you're afraid to say anything because everywhere's bug but did anyone like whisper like holy shit they just whack those guys for talking about an affair Yeah. Did they whisper that in the military at all? Yeah, we whispered. That's why we, um, yes. Yeah, Joe got it right here. North Korea reportedly executed pop singers and dancers. Let's go down. There's a picture. A story released by South Korea's Chosun Ilbo indicates that

North Korean leader Kim Jong-un executed a dozen popular singers last week. Among the victims, the Chosun Elbeau writes, was Kim's ex-girlfriend, the pop propaganda singer. Oh, wow. Hjong-Wal. Sources in China said singer Hjong-Wal, as well as Moon Kyeong-jin, head of the Un-Hasu Orchestra, were arrested on August 17 for violating North Korean laws against pornography. There it is. And were executed in public, in public. Three days later, the victims of the atrocity were members of the Unhasa Orchestra as well as singers, musicians, and dancers with the Wang Jian light music band. They were accused of videotaping themselves having sex and selling the videos.

the tapes have apparently gone on sale and chunk. Are those real? No, that's a ridiculous thing. It's a ridiculous assertion. People, public, you know, they buy it because they don't understand the system. These ladies, they leave under facility in the North Carolina workers' party facility. It is all guided by police and, you know, the soldiers. And then the living room, the rooms they are living, they all monitored.

there was no room for them to any, you know, capturing any sex videos, sex with whom. So why is South Korea reporting this? No, that's a reporting from North Korea. They just deliver. They're just delivering it. They framed them to like that. Okay. So, and then, you know, some of my friends, you know, family related Wang Ji-San light music band and then like that.

I know how they leave, right? So there was no chance for them to carry Bible or like, you know, taking a pornography and then sell to China. It's ridiculous. Right. Yeah. So while you're still in the military, it's just interesting because you had in it was some years ago now, but again, it was already large at that time. And we think of North Korea as this closed off country, you know, sometimes like people make jokes about them playing with their little toys or whatever. but like again you got a military 1.3 million people there's serious training there and everything

what looking at it now knowing what you know about the military powers in the western world for example what type of strength outside of numbers of people do you think the north korea military has we had zero idea we only got education that we are the best military in the world because we have a great general. So there's nothing. Even if he's a little plump. Yeah, no information to compare. Yeah.

But that's why we, you know, some North Korean soldiers believe that we could win of the United States. And we really do. But if you serve more military and then you hear something from, you know, people, then, you know, the, you know, we called. military as an invincible military. Invincible. Yeah, invincible. But truly invincible, you know, army is U.S. military right now. So, but, um, comparatively speaking. Comparatively. Yeah. So, um, Neurogyam emphasized the bullets, artillery, and the missile rockets. They understood they cannot occupy United States. They don't have aircraft carrier. So they, they

developed the mechanism to straighten the United States. That's the ICBM intercontinental ballistic missile. Right. Yeah. And with the nuclear warhead. That's why Trump was calling him like Rocket Man and all that. That's true. That's true.

So, and then North Korea propagandized this is like ultimate, like, an weapon to kill Americans like that. So many military soldiers believe that. But that's why I told the, you know, US DOD. that you guys sent a bunch of information, like, even like a military-secret related Africa carrier or like a nuclear submarine or, you know, battleship, you have to send them

so that the North Korean soldiers could realize the difference, the power difference. But really, they don't understand. Yeah. Even like generals, they have some information, but they don't usually access those information. Is there weaponry and material basically, subsidized by China, or am I exaggerating there?

No, no. I don't think North Korea and China share the military intel or the technology, but North Korea, sometimes they ask China to develop missile and then other techniques. So sometimes they trade, yes. Yeah, let me restate that. I'm not necessarily referring to the ICBMs and stuff. I mean, maybe, yeah, but I could see why China would be like. No, we're not sharing any of that.

But like on a weaponry basis, you know, you've got to get all these AKs in there. Are they getting that from China? Are they getting that from rogue arms dealers around the world? Oh, no, they produced it. They're producing all of it themselves. They were the producer and then selling those, you know, low price, AKU to Middle East, you know, Iran, Syria, before. And then many of my, you know, some people I know, they are in, you know, Middle East, Iran, Syria. They sold lots of weapons, including AK-47.

Now, they are delivering emissions to Russia, right? So Russia needs a bunch of, you know, armor and then the weapons artillery. So North Korea is sending a bunch of them. Isn't North Korea, I mean, they're sending soldiers, too. They had one point that I think they had like 10,000 soldiers or something on the ground. What's going on there? 10,000, and they are about sending additional 6,000. it's not all like the battle the soldiers but including engineers including the supporting unit

and then recently North Korean government released the video those you know but the veterans and then the war the victims the soldiers killed in Russia they were sent back to North Korea and then Kim Jong kneeled down and then crying of those dead caught, but... Do you think a lot of people in North Korea through that propaganda eat that up and buy that sacrifice

or do you think there's, like, what are we doing here? Initially, most North Koreans don't know we sent the military soldiers to Russia. They never rebuilt. There's a military secret. But gradually, there are lots of, you know, media publications from outside, South Korea, United States, and then many people outside

of North Korea realized that we really sent military personnel to Russia. So when they return to North Korea, they gossiping. They share the rumors, right? So the information cannot be kept in secret anymore. Yes. So eventually, North Korean regime come up that, hey, we admit that we sent military soldiers. Now they are receiving the dead bodies from Russia, now the showing the international community, and also to its own people that Kim Jong is so human being so that he pay respect those, you know, soldiers and like that. But it's... But he doesn't really care. If he cares, he wouldn't send them. That's right. Yeah, he exchanged money for that. He exchanged technology for the soldiers.

So, okay, that's the trait. That was going to be my question because this is obviously long post-Soviet Russia. And as you said earlier, they even have books in North Korea talking about, or they study how the Soviet Union fell and what a disgrace that is to them. But they maintain some sort of Tet for Ted, if you will, relationship with Russia now. Yeah. So it's a business relationship. Would you say more than anything? More business relationship, but Kim Jong-un wanted to this relationship more than anyone

because his father was close to Chinese leadership and his uncle was close to Chinese leadership. But Kim Jong-un disliked the current Chinese leader Xi Jinping. Oh, he does? He cursed in front of many North Korean officials like Xi Jinping, like really. Because Chinese current leader, Xi Jinping, visited the South Korea first. He invited South Korean leader first to China.

But in tradition, he should invite North Korean leader and then he should visit North Korea first. But he didn't. And so Kim Jong-un ripped him. He felt that's a humiliation. And he did this like Xi. So now like a hiton, I want to talk to him. But because of, you know, a sanction will live,

he visited China four times, but never got any tangible result. So now he switched his direction to Russia and then Putin's army and ammunition factory. So, okay, I will accept you. So now it's trading. Kim Jong-un wanted a missile technology, a submarine technology, and also hypersonic missile and also like jets, stealthy jets, that those stuff really lack in North Korea. Yeah. Additionally, Kim Jong-un was paid $3,000 per person in a month.

$3,000? Yeah. That's it? That's it. But he took all the money. He never gave the money. Never gave the money to his family members. So, yeah, Kim Jong-un benefit a lot of things from this deployment and then the agreement in Russia.

Russia also has the, like you mentioned earlier, do China share the military base or like the factory with North Korea? Yeah. Now Russia is the situation. Got it. Putin is encouraging North Korea produce more armor for his own battle. That's fascinating, though, because I understand, I guess, based on Kim's ego, why he would be like. offended that Xi Jinping would recognize South Korea

before him obviously that's par for the course with Kim but even if he wants to be that feels like spitting on the hand that feeds you ripin Xi because as you already laid out earlier it's like China kind of allows them to exist

and has that communist partnership or whatever and if China decided to shut down certain exports that country dies that North Korea Korea effectively dies. You have people more than even now dead in the streets. So isn't it risky politically? I know the guy's a psycho, but isn't it risky politically to be like, what the fuck? To normal people, that's the very common sense. Yes. But Kim Jong-win doesn't care. So he initiated, we have to cut all the relationship with China.

Like, you know, really emphasized, but he realized that he cannot cut all of them. So, but he still have, like, anger-filling. Hatred was, you know, the current Chinese leader. So he just, you know, moved away. But people are living, relying on the trade between China. Yeah. So this is the whole different story. Now, so you go into the military, though, in 2002, you got destroyed.

you said in 2005? Yes, August 2005. And a lot of your time you said had been spent obviously training and then also doing some of these infrastructure projects and running that and I guess learning how you would gather intelligence in a wartime scenario

but it's not like you had to go onto a battlefield during your time. But you're discharged at 20. Why were, is that standard for somebody to be discharged after three years? No, for standard service time is 10 years. So why did you get discharged? charged three years in?

In North Korean military system, we have, like, you know, talent recruitment, like those kids who have high grades during the high school and also well-behaved in the military service, the unit should recommend him. This person is eligible to apply college, and he has a good, you know, grade in the high school and also well-behaved and well-trained, very loyal to the regime. So we recommend this person. So I was in that process and I got my membership of North Green Workers' Party. And then I transferred to the university called Pyongyang University of Foreign Studies, which is my high school's the college. The college. Yes. So would you say at this point,

in time your loyalty to the regime was legit meaning you hadn't had any sort of personal political or moral awakening to what was outside the walls i wouldn't say i was a true believer but i wasn't anti-government or any idea to against the leader and then maybe most people would do the same thing they just follow they just you know the life is you know Life is that life. You wouldn't expect or dreaming other life like that. But the entire belief has changed while I was in China. All right, which we're going to talk about in a minute.

I do want to say, though, it's amazing that in a country where so many people are purposely left behind and poor and have nothing and aren't given access to higher education or, you know, being able to rise up the ranks of society. It's amazing that in the specialized top, which I'm going to include military people and people like you also who were highly educated and stuff, it's amazing that despite being shut off from a lot of the world with few exceptions, you guys are obviously able to develop some real scientific and we haven't even talked about it, but cyber talent in a country that has the internet shut off. to the point that you've developed, the country has developed ICBMs while living in a Truman show reality. So what I'm saying is the intellectual capital with limited resources is profound. And I'm not saying that as a compliment to the regime. I'm saying the regime's holding back you guys from being unbelievable. If you had access to like, think about all the exchange of ideas that happens around the world and how people can build on top of each other's work.

You don't even have that. And yet you're able to do some things that objectively, even though the regime's bad and we don't want to see it for them, objectively are pretty incredible intellectual achievements. Yep. This country is mysterious and miracle. As you mentioned earlier, it's technically impossible. The country in a poverty and explicitly put people in poverty and develop ICBM, high technology, and in the cybercry, prime units, it's kind of unimaginable, like, effort doing that. So many people studying North Korea, they call these countries really miracle.

Yes. What is, this is another thing I keep thinking about. We've kind of talked about it, but not, like, in firm detail. Obviously, all the media you see, the TV, if you will, is state run. We know that. What is that propaganda like? Are there only two or three channels? Do a lot of people have TVs in their house

where you said you don't even have electricity most of the day? Or there are a million shows running throughout the day or the same show on an hour repeat? How does it work? Yep. So most of the people living in city, they have TVs. But the rural area I visited, they don't have any electrical devices, none of them.

No refrigerator, no TV, no radio. So that's the difference. But even though you have TV, the program is designed by the North Korea's propaganda and agitation department. Propaganda and agitation department. They literally call it that? Yeah. Like it translates to that in North Korean? The translation and then Korean language also called propaganda and agitation department. They didn't, you know, trying to hide anything.

At least they're honest. I appreciate that. So, and also, daily-based, they need to get approved by the leader. I'm sure Kim Jong-un won, you know, review all the programs. His office will do, but they need a signature from the Kim Jong-un's office to show this program, like a daily program. So if they don't get the approval, they have to repeat the previously approved the programs. So they repeat the programs in that day. if you don't get the approval.

Yes. Yeah, but that's the system. They produced it to get a daily approval. And then the main focus of any publication in North Korea should be the leader and the family and the history. How this family came first game, second game, the third game, is committed their lives for people's well-being, which is more propaganda right

Joe would you mind pulling up a map I'm sure you've seen this it's a satellite image map of North Korea and South Korea at night is this is I'll explain why I want to look at this I mean that's the perfect example I keep saying that North Korea has no electricity that's why yeah that's the clear example

that's what's been popping when you keep hitting that point all day this is the image that pops in my head perfect so let's blow that up right there just so people can see it on the screen that's exactly the one i'm looking for joe the one you're on yep all right so you can see on the south side there where there's all the light that's south korea yes just north of that is north korea yeah the reason specifically i'm bringing this up now is because if a country like that is so shut off on electricity on such a wide scale, how do you even effectively spread the propaganda when most people can't even

see it? That's a great question. Thank you. Did you see the dot there? They're like, you know. Yeah, is that Pyongyang? That's the Pyongyang. That's the only capital they can, you know, see the lights.

But even in Pyongyang, we only have like two or three hours electricity. So North Korean regime developed other mechanisms to spray their ideology to people. if they cannot watch TVs. So print the material. And then you give the community leader, so they have to have the session, like, you know, Saturday session, and then weekly starting session, like Wednesday. And then monthly the starting session every month.

So they gave the materials, the government policy, and then studying material for the leader. history. So they keep, you know, organizing these events for people. Like, it's not like our, like a meet-up, you know, the organizing events. No, it's mandatory the events you have to attend. Mandatory. Mandatory. So that's the way, North Korean regime still in the position to Bramish people. And also, the broadcasting, the radio broadcasting, we only have one radio. broadcasting called the third channel third channel and it's only one what happened to one and two i have no idea why they called it why they called it the third broadcasting channel so i guess for third

world that might be what they're doing play on third world country you know what i mean that would be them admitting something though you wouldn't want to do that agree to disagree anyway the third um they have they might be a reason that they know one or two channels is you know gone but the third broadcasting channel but so it it doesn't that doesn't need electricity for broadcasting radio I don't know yeah I would assume I mean yeah so that's another way they keep you know repeating everything is the same thing and mainly is like as I mentioned earlier now it's a material distribution right yeah you know what I kind of picture I don't know if this is also something that might happen because it makes it easier when it's

a centralized source of electricity in this way. You know how you'll see the speakers for Islam where it'll be the call to prayer and it plays around different cities that practice a Muslim religion? Do they have something like that except instead of the call to prayer? It's like Supreme Leader good. Everyone say it on three. Is it anything like that? Yes, we do. In the towns, not like that particular thing, but in towns they have an announcement speaker and then they sometimes they play music the propaganda music and then encourage people hey we should increase our like you know the effort to produce more rights or more you know work and then sometimes if you see north screen tv or the video in the morning the special

propaganda group in the factory line they just sing and then you know playing music encouraging people work more it's like animal you ever read the book

Animal Farm? Yeah I know the story but it's like horse work is good yes wow that's that's dark that's that's that's reality

yes so yeah that's the many type of different method to brainwash people I assume if you've read Animal Farm, you're obviously a very well-wrug guy. You're also familiar with 1984? Yeah, Georgia will. I mean, I don't even say this as a stereotype.

It seems like when you describe North Korea, it is the darkest form in 1984 that there is. Yeah, very similar. He described the well. So, now, but the good thing. is nowadays young people like less believe in North Korean system. They do. They have exposed to the foreign media

more than older generation and then they are the other generation which haven't received any benefit from the government like my that generation they received the distribution for many years right? Yes. They have some loyalty and then like you know from my generation, like in 1980-99, we never received any distribution. We only, you know, educate that, oh, we had a distribution system, government-provider

everything, but no. So like free education, free healthcare, and no taxes, sounds all good, but the system never worked. Never worked. Yeah, never worked. And because of this free stop, they took free, away, freedom was. took freedom away from us right so we are not allowed to do anything and then government said you cannot do that so we cannot argue with it what are the what are the number one ways

that the younger generations are getting access to outside information is it like you referring to earlier a lot of things being smuggled in the smuggled usb and cdies dvdies and um there are a number of ways to uh send USBs. So one is things from people to travel China and North Korea they smuggled those information. And another way is from South Korea

balloon lunch, leaflets and USBs in the balloons and then send a balloon to North Korea. A balloon. Yeah, a balloon. Oh my God. Oh, my God. Yeah. Wow. Old technique. But because of South Korean government stop

the government intervened the effort so they blocked all balloon lunch right now wait the South Koreans are blocking balloon launches

yep why that's correct so current South Korean leader and then the majority party impact site located entering spacecraft

contact We were identified life form. We were safer in space. FX's Alien Earth, an original series now streaming on Disney Plus. Sign up today. 18 plus subscription required TNCs apply. I wouldn't say pro-Nold Korea, but they are more party and the leader. trying to support North Korea, like more, they called them, say they are the more engagement, you know, policy people.

But basically, they want to provide more food to Kim regime and then provide more, you know, support Kim regime. Do you think that that is sinister intentions or good intentions paving the way to help unintentionally? The two policies already proven, like, you know, the South Korea has been adopted Sunsaint policy, which is more engagement policy, providing more access to resource access to North Korea. But North Korean regime realized that this is the mechanism they were trying to influence us.

So they took, you know, aid, took money, and then cut off all the, like, you know, influences. So they utilize the money and the stuff, but they just reject South Korea's influence but North Korea all know that and even South Korea the engagement guys knew

it is a failed you know a policy but they don't they won't recognize that they won't admit this is the failed policy because it damaged their political careers like that that sucks

so but other party like conservative party in Korea they you know argue the principles, right? You know, North Korea should come up with the good intention when we negotiate or the corporate.

I like that, but somehow in South Korea they framed as like, you know, bad people. And then even like South Korea in danger now. What is,

you talk about the access to health care and stuff like that. What is health care like? in North Korea are, I mean, like we said earlier, there's some serious intellectual capital that does exist there, but in the medical side, like, do you have a lot of doctors or any of any good? How does it work? Surprisingly, North Korea runs free healthcare system. So, technically, you used to get the, you know, support and treatment for free. But, as I said,

It's all failed policy. There's no resources you can utilize. Even you want to see the doctor, you have to prepare your own medicine or own equipment. And even like you don't have such like, you know, devices in the... You have to prepare it yourself? Yeah. What do you mean? Because the hospital and doctors, doctors are there.

And then, you know, they don't have the materials and then devices for treatment. So they have to purchase it Or you have to prepare money And so the doctors take bribery And then we'll give you a cure Oh my God Yeah So

Many people It's not relying on the government's health care system It's more relying on their own money So that they You know, hire doctors to cure But utilize the hospital system But it's not easy for them to get a proper, you know, treatment using North Korean, the government of the system. Do the upper class people utilize their connections to get treatment outside of the country?

Absolutely. Yeah. Not outside of the country. Those people who can get treatment outside of the country is really, really highly, you know, recognized by Kim family. So they can, they send them to. Singapore, China, get treatment. It's not even like, you know, my dad's level. So it's more like the highly, like a loyal family style.

But people like the presidential appoint, you know, level people, they have designated hospitals to treat them. so yeah there were two hospitals there so they can get access of treatment yeah but normal people cannot so there's technically free health care but there's a lot of people who are as we've already will highlighted dying in the streets they never get there they never get it they may die something as as simple and sad as straight up starvation so during the COVID many people couldn't get cure and the treatment and then many hospitals and doctors they didn't care about them and then they just to put the chat that they got the you know high fever and then they don't categorize

them as the COVID patient because COVID in a case is really serious problem if they found one in North Korea. Kim Jong-un said, we don't have COVID. So if someone said that this guy is a COVID patient, and then that person who prescribed or that person who report will be in danger. So they never, you know, put them in the COVID-patient list. So he did the opposite. He propagandized no such thing as COVID whatsoever, everyone carry on.

Yeah. And would you say there was a pretty serious death toll of people that at least was started by the dominant? no effect of that when that was at its peak so basically they put them in the one facility they didn't treat you know make a proper treatment so they died many of them died they even they you know it's a COVID you know you if you get the vaccine or stop and then they have some you know hope but they never got the proper the medicine so yeah many of them died That's terrible.

Well, we left off with you being able to be discharged early from the military because of some of your talents and grades and standing within the military and academically. But at what point, that was 2005, at what point were you sent to China and what was the context there again for you to go? So up to my dad's my ranking appointment. 2004 he kind of not retired but he wanted to experience outside okay and by the way we're in the second episode now because we've been talking for a while so for people who didn't hear the first one can you just rehash very quickly what your dad's business position was so my father was uh north korean leader's presidential appointee while he was in north korea he served CEO of the one of the biggest company in North Korea. And later he served as the chairman of

the board in North Korea's economic development group between Hong Kong businessman and the North Korea National Defense Committee. At the time, North Korea's National Defense Committee is the ultimate decision-making institution. Wow. Yeah. And then the committee, the chair, is Kim Jong-un. But he, you said, retires in 0-4? No, not retired, but he wanted to experience outside. Then he never thought about that, but he was in the transition. And then he's supposed to move to another, you know, direct level. But one of my high school friends and then also her dad is my father's friend,

they lived in Switzerland and Germany for a while, and then he recommended, why don't you go out in an experience? It could be good experience. and then for your kids, it would great education. Did that guy in that recommendation hint at anything, I don't know, take a shot at the regime in North Korea and say, hey, there's a whole world out there, you should see it because it might be a little better?

Or was it more just like, oh, go out and experience it? No, I think that was an indirect implication. Yeah. You will see more different, you know, life there in like that. But that guy came back. Yeah, that guy didn't defect. came back. He came back. No, that is a very high-lived position. I mean, but I really appreciate his recommendation. But if not, and then my dad wouldn't think about, you know, going out. Yeah.

He will serve another position there and then, you know, continue his career there. But that was the kind of the tipping point for us, like, you know, experienced real life other than North Korea. So that's 04 where he decides, he wants to go experience some else. I guess related in a way your discharge and you is the implication you go with him to work on some of his stuff yeah so they went to China late 2004 okay and then including my sister but I was in the military right so I um first of all they asked me hey can you come to China you know it's a good place to study but I I refuse I mean I'm okay here so but August 2005 I was discharged and then I was about to study in one of the North Korean

college right so but I think it's a good opportunity I changed my mind so I went to China but in North Korea there was a rule you cannot keep both child in China or outside of China outside North Korea you couldn't have both of your kids there one time no you have to one, you have to keep one kid as a hostage in North Korea. Is that the term that was used? They don't, they were used the term, but hostage, but they, uh, it is not allowed. So my sister was there about here and then she, you know, I, you know, I, you know, hope my brother can study.

So she came back and then I went out. So we switched. A little switcheroo. Yeah. Yeah. And then I studied Chinese more than a year, year than half. And then I enrolled in Chinese college in 2007. So I studied my undergraduate.

And several years later, there was a policy change. So my sister also came out. But later, another policy, the policy changed again. So, you know, one of us should. to go back to North Korea but then my dad get the approval by the North Korean leader there I want to keep the boss child there got it he approved it so from that moment to be stayed in China did it matter though that you were now like of age like you're not a child anymore you're in the early 20s but they still the policy is like it's just generational no

good point but so I so technically I shouldn't be there. I should be separate from my parents. Because I'm adult, right? More than 20 years old. So, but, no, we kind of bend the rule because we really wanted to study in China, right? And you picked up the language in a year? No, it's not entirely, but in Chinese college,

We enrolled, after we enrolled, we have two years to study with the international students together. And the third and fourth year, we will study with Chinese students. So the four years, two years with the international study, focusing on the Chinese language, the third and fourth studying economics. All right. The one part I'm a little confused of here is when in the first episode when we were talking and you referred to China. a little bit you talked about how you guys would all live in dorms and there'd be minders there so anytime you went out a minder always went with you and that's kind of how they kept the ideology locked down am i understand this correctly you're living in that type of dorm scenario with your

parents when you go to china or are you separate from your parents in china no uh when we're in china we have own house like we rented but it's not like you know so you don't have a minder there with you? No, no. It's for the like business or diplomats outside of North Korea, they have more flexibility. Okay. So you were referring to the general people who go to China as far as like living in the dorms. Yeah, restaurant workers, labor workers. Okay. Yeah. So you're living with your parents and diplomatic housing. Yeah. And you're going to university. What were you studying again at university? International trade and economics. Okay. So you're getting now you're getting an education on how some of the different economic types around the world exist outside of what just North Korea pushes.

Is that a little bit of an awakening moment for you when you're studying that? So that's the mindset I had at the time. North Korean regime never recognized foreign country diplomat. I'm a foreign country diploma. So I have to earn a degree from North Korean University. So from the beginning, I wasn't serious. You weren't serious. About the study.

I mean, getting a degree from Chinese college. But after a year, I think, you know, it's a good opportunity to get, you know, even though North Korean regime don't recognize a, you know, Chinese degree, but I think I still pursued this degree. So I studied a little, you know, I put more effort in the study. But it's hard to realize the difference, the whole market economy and planned economy. That basically in North Korea, the black market and market is more run by similar to market economy system.

It's the plain economy, the socialist, plain economy by the North Korean regime, it's not, it's just the term, never, never, you know, run, never operated. So we called it failed economy. And even my dad said at the time that North Korea's economy failed. Oh, he said that. Yeah. So we need to revive the economy, like, you know, utilizing market economy. So he's a more market economy guy.

We have to put, you know, marketing economy in North Korea. So that was kind of gradual education for me. And then, I don't know, I was brainwashed or I don't, you know, trying to trust easily. But it took me like three years to realize and took me that, you know, years give me more, like, not confusion, but I'm trying to comprehend everything. Yeah. When you say realize, though. Am I right to assume that doesn't just include, oh, our economic system is a little messed up and, you know, whatever, but it also includes you starting to learn about the realities, A, of some suffering in North Korea, and B, that the leadership is tyrannical and bad. the first thing i noticed was the economic differences even though i couldn't understand the system

but you know the lots of cars on the street and then 24 hours electricity and a lot of restaurants and then foreign you know at the uh chains like kFC macdonalds right did you even know what that was before you went no no it's my first time to have a hamburger in china you get a big mac and you're like fuck yeah but that I prefer KFC at a time. Anyway, so, I mean, when you go to China, KFC has more chain than McDonald's. Good. I like to hear that.

Anyway, so I visited, you know, both, and then we liked it. And my parents, my sister liked hamburgers. So it's kind of paradise for us. Oh, this flavor, like, you know. but um quick question john how does the north korean government not think that like a diplomat who's given a little more flexibility and happens to be a more powerful person by the way yeah like your father isn't going to see this stuff and isn't going to be like oh it's like tasting the fruit in the garden of eden for the first time like why are they so why they have so much hubris

to assume that these people are going to do that and all them are going to come back and be like yeah And now we still like North Korea? First of all, they trust, you know, I would say they checked the backgrounds and then we got the education. And, you know, as I said earlier that, you know, everything we access in China, we shouldn't believe that's the education we got. So, and every week we have a session, the audit review. Oh, you still did that? Yeah, in China too. We do the same thing. Someone come over and do that at the house with you?

No, we have to go to one place, like, you know, such, the place such as, like, a North Korean restaurant in China. And who's there doing it? No, there was a political leader there, and then I was once the chair of the young North Korean Kimmerstown Socialist Youth League. In China. In China. So I have to manage those like 60 keys and then life session every Saturday. You're like the hall monitor. Yeah, I should be the monitor, but I escaped.

Right. But hold on a minute. So you have to get up in front of the class and be like, yes, I ate at KFC this week. That was very bad and the food sucked. It actually wasn't good. I mean, I say that it's joking, but at the same time I'm dead serious. Are you saying things like that? The good thing being president is I don't need to, you know, do my self-criticism.

So I received those reports. And then my vice deputy is recording, writing, that person, you know, had such comments like that. But I'm just listening and then give them guidance that, you know, after his, you know, self-criticism and then I gave them comments like, you know, but nobody makes about the hamburger. So I wish somebody made the comments hamburgers, but after the session, I buy them hamburgers and Korean noodle, Langman. So, yeah, we play. You backdoor it. Back door it. But it's, now, like, we all love hamburgers, right?

Mm-hmm. The kids. So we don't make it complicated. I got it. It's like a wink, wink, nod kind of thing. I got it. But you're getting this illusion during this time. Mm-hmm.

Are you having direct conversations at all with your parents about this? No, we open, like not openly discuss the, how do I say, like, the criticizing regime, but we just sharing that, oh, like, you know, in China, we have a lot of, you know, food quality, cars and the economy, booms, especially 2008, you know, Beijing Olympic it's really oh you're there during yeah I was there so like you know but compared to China we are still saw behind it and then why our country is not developing like that and you know that kind of conversation you could have but I'm not like directly criticizing the leader oh this guy's incompetent like that so no that never happened no I cannot okay

Did you defect officially? 2014. So it's six years after the Olympics and what you're talking about right now. So you're saying that before, and we'll get to the defection in a minute, but before you actually defect, there's never a direct conversation between you and your parents where, and I'm going to oversimplify this, you guys are like, yo, fuck this guy. No, not direct conversation, but after Kim Jong's uncle's execution, late 2013, You know, we all can sense on our faces. We really hate this situation. Yeah.

We really don't think this is the leader who can lead the whole nation. He killed people, you know, in the front line. He ordered to kill people and put lots of family members in the prison camp, which are most like our friends and acquaintances, right? So. Oh, you had friends and acquaintances put in there? I lost several friends. Dead.

No, I mean, my dad too, my sisters too. My sister's roommate in Chinese dormitory. She was up to the class, they were about having lunch, and then the North Korean security agents came and they grabbed her. They took her in front of her. And then asked my sister, the young lady asked my sister, hey, can you pack my things to send the things to home in North Korea? So, yeah, my sister did.

And then we never found her after that. The entire family gone. like in the camps or killed or unknown so we you know best knowledge to my best knowledge they are in camp but sometimes sometimes people are committed suicide

in the camp and then while on the camp some people committed suicide so if they're alive they're still in the camp did you ever have access to seeing any of those camps when you were in the military no we're not allowed and we don't know which camp there are more than 10 camps do you know what they're like uh most of them like

know mines coal mine and then like different mines and also other you know farming you know areas the rural areas surrounded by mountains and then um so my sister's roommate and then the other guy who was really younger than me and he also studied in chinese college together his grandfather was Kim Jong's aunt's associate. Okay. Yeah, he's disappeared too. Entire family. But the main reason is because his grandfather was part of the, you know,

Kim Jong's aunt's circle. Right. Yeah, so my question was like, what the, why he supposed to be, I mean, he doesn't do anything wrong, right? He's just a student. yeah it was sent so why was your sister's friend taken or do you not have any idea

no no her father was working close to uh kim zon's uncle so so you just get the whole family whole family three generation punishment it's called the guilty by association wow

and then you know my dad's friends so you know from late 2013 you know we never openly discussed this stuff but we criticized those executions we strongly object

against those inhuman actresses were you afraid to do that if someone else overheard it or if a bug overheard it yes I do but you still did it still my like not you know in my home but even me go out to you know dinner or like like other spaces, we do. Did it feel weird to say those things out loud?

No, because it's not just our own feeling. Yeah. At the time, you can sense those hatred or those anger from the other people's face in North Korea. Even like I have several friends in China, right, those North Korean diplomats and North Korean business officers, we kind of mutually, like, exchanging, you know, facial recognitions, facial, like, expressions, like, but, you know, we didn't, like, say the exact word, but still, like, we criticize those, you know, why, why they kill them? Why? What's the reason? Why they have to be sent to poker prison game? Yeah. We have a phrase here. what's understood doesn't need to be explained and it sounds like that's what you're getting at

yeah we couldn't get any reasons and but we all assumed that you know this regeneration punishment is the very common in north korea you guys were in china when kim yong ill died yeah in 2011 yeah so this is before any of that stuff you just referred to happen before what was the what was your family's reaction and your reaction to that when he passed on? Because he had been in charge all your life, I think, right? That's true. Yeah. The new expectation was Kim Jong-un, the new leader.

We heard that he had experience in Switzerland, so we hope that he can, you know, do some openness and then the real politics. for people. That's a new hope. And then we don't like feel much, we didn't feel much about Kim Jong-yo because at the time we already been in China for many years and we think, you know, people are dying, right? So and then, but it's almost 70-something so it's too only to die so um we kind of exchanged opinion that he died to only like that yeah but there's not like a you're not sad he's dead or whatever there's not any allegiance you feel towards him no but uh we have the funeral like place in china oh you stayed in the you didn't go back for the i didn't go back

we have to temporary you know space for the no memorial and then but we have to you know, pay respect. And then every person should stand alongside the memorial for two hours, three hours. And then I was there too. And, but some people are crying. And then... Do you think it was real or forced? No, that's the thing.

So it's more situational. Like, when you see North Korean propaganda media, people are crying of dying like an old-sruction leader. And then when they see North Korean leader, they, you know, like crying and a lot. But that's more like a public event. And before the event, the organizer make announcement that if North Korean leader comes on the stage and, you know, people should make a great, you know, welcoming. And then he or she called several, like, 10 or 20 people, like actors there.

And then you have to cry with it at this moment, like give them direction. Yeah, give them directions. But this is more like the Kim Jong Il's, like the temporary funeral there, the memorial. It's not like organized, organized the crying. But it's more, I think, in the natural. And then when they see the dead person's picture, and then it's more like naturally driven, not like organized when you're standing there though for two or three hours where you're forced to be there for the memorial you never cried but what's going

through your head do you remember oh no and so I was like it's too cold it's winter like to get a fuck out of here December you have to think about it's too cold and like you know and but I was trying to think about Kim Jong-year but nothing to think about it. We never had a conversation met or like, I don't know what's his greatness. So even though we, you know, study material, like documentary, now while I was in China, I realized that the books he wrote is all, you know, written by the scholars. And then, you know, he run the country, but not well. Like, if he's a great leader, we wouldn't be in the situation like poverty right right and then kim yong un takes over you had said there was like a thought oh he's

he has some western world experience maybe we'll bring that in that goes to shit quickly as you just laid out a few minutes ago he starts killing people getting rid of people it actually it reminds me a lot of you know mohammed bin soman in in saudi arabia it's kind of what he did when when he took power he turned i think it was like the ritz carlton into a prison and prison half his family members there, like anyone who could threaten his power. So it's a similar playbook that Kim Jong-un put out, but when you start to see it affect you guys personally, like you mentioned, your sister's friend being taken out, her family is generationally punished.

I think the other one was like your dad's friend or something, whatever it was. Now you guys are having these looks like, oh, my God, this isn't good. and you said there was never a conversation between you and your family where you openly said the things that would be banned but obviously when you make the decision to defect in you said it was 2013 14 2014 yeah when you make the decision to defect that conversation obviously happens where you're like we're going to defect yeah where were you what led to that and what was that like so uh the conversation came

right after our visit North Korea in September 2014. So my dad and I went to North Korea, and we stayed there over two weeks, and we kind of trying to observe the situation. So the whole execution took a whole year from late 2013 to 2014. And then many of my father's friend and also my friends, they told me don't come back to this country just to stay in China. And then, you know, the people, my dad access is like really, really top-ranking people. Yes.

Even the people around Kim Zun, they told my dad this country has no future. Yeah, they really told them. At their own risk, obviously. I mean, it's one-on-one conversation. There's no taping. And then, you know, they talked to no open place, probably, like, no bogging. So, and then they told my dad they don't know what directions this country is going. So basically that means they criticize Kim Jong's action against his uncle and other people.

And then they think this country has a little legitimacy. He killed his uncle and then killed his aunt. We thought that the ant was died, which is the only, like, Kim family bloodline at the time. Whoa. So now this guy has no legitimacy. So that's why we thought that, you know, the regime won't be, you know, taking a long time for survival. For someone like your dad, though, who is older than you has had a successful career, relatively speaking for sure within North Korea and has worked technically directly for the government through his businesses for so long was there like a meaning of life crisis that he went through with that I mean this is all he ever knew no I think you know he's entire belief system collapsed so collapsed yeah I mean he's like he was educated for a long time to be a lawyer person to this country and

and then he believed his service is for people. So he's also got awarded highest civilian owner in North Korea called Hero of Labor. Hero of Labor. Yeah, it's medal, the highest civilian medal given by North Korean regime. When was he given that? 2002. Okay, so while, okay.

A while ago. So that means he, you know, trying to contribute to this society. And also he, he catched fish and then he also distributed those fish to, you know, Pyongyang citizens and also other, you know, city people for free. Like, oh, wow. I mean, basically, North Korean regime is run by a free system, but it's not sustainable. Yeah. But anyway, so he was confused then why this guy killed all the people who were loyal to the regime before even he was born, right?

And then he doesn't see Zhang Songtai, Kim Jong-zanko, and other people are anti-government activists or whatever rebellion. They were trying to make this country better to accept openness market economy into country to provide more benefit to people. But now Kim Jong-un killed them because the other people are bad guys. My father couldn't believe that. So, and then after we came back from Pyongyang, late September 2014, and China started the golden holiday, like the week, holiday week.

So my dad proposed that, why don't we go? And then lots of travel between these days, vacations. So by the way, the reason I'm going. mentioned the vacation is if we ask travel to another country we need to get approval by the security guy then then that's that was the excuse you know this is the trap I mean for Chinese holidays and then we want to you know try to visit you know the countries technically it's not allowed but my day was a high-ranking official and then he has a credential and then they believed they

think oh long-time loyal a long-time loyal person and the hero of labor. It's really rare, you know, a word. So, yeah, the security guy, even like, oh, yeah, well, okay. And then also there's another mechanism to prevent people from defecting, like the business and the diplomats. The family and the people have to submit their passport to the security guy. The security guy controls all the passports.

But my family kept our passport. by ourselves all the time that that's another advantage for us to yeah you could bend the rules yeah so where did he say you guys were going to be going for that holiday week where where did he say you were going to be visiting we had no idea but from that moment we got help from the south Korean government all right how does that happen I mean reach out through channels yeah through channels his friend helped him get the the channel and then they suddenly appeared and then they also they they can help us so yeah we just get you to south korea yeah okay what this is this is a wild story like it feels like an underground like the underground railroad

in a way how this is going on yes so they up you just said they appeared some south korean asian agent did you is it like i didn't know who that person was you didn't know who that person was Did your dad have to go meet them in, like, a public place clandestinely? No, we, like, we went to a restaurant. You all, the whole family? No, no, no, my dad and me. Your dad and you, and this, okay. My dad's friend and then the agent guy.

So you met your dad's friend, too, who also wanted to defect. No, he's a Chinese citizen. Chinese citizen. Yeah. So you meet the South Korean there. He shows up. What is he, what happens in that conversation? Basically, he offered he can help to get in South Korea.

And how did he propose doing that? I'm not sure I can share that, but... Okay, don't do that then. That's fine. So basically, if we go to the third country, they can get the identification for us so that we can get on the South Korean airline, which is considered. that there's a South Korean territory a third country which you're not going to say what that was yeah okay the third country so in China it's impossible China with the North Korean passport we cannot purchase South Korean airline ticket or um or get on the South Korean airline plane

but you guys are also obviously telling him like you know your mom and your sister are there too so yeah were they saying oh you guys got to go separately or no no no you can go all together Yeah, all together, because I could sense that there are several guys following us during a whole, like, trip. They were trying to protect. Minders. I'm not sure. I think they are agents. Okay.

Yeah. And then the reason they were there, because we are escaping this country and then escaping from two government, one North Korea, one China. Yes. right so were you in that restaurant were you afraid at all that you were going to be seen or discovered that's um very very um you know intense feeling like um it could be disaster if this information is rebuilt north korea or china we could be arrested instantly yeah so It is really dangerous place for me and my dad. Even talk to Chinese agents, the South Korean agents.

How quickly did they want to make the turnaround? Because you're in the middle of that holiday week, so like the next day? Very next day. Yeah. Now, did you guys left, you guys had a house or the condo in North Korea that had a lot of your stuff there still? That's why it's a tough decision we have. to give up everything. Leave it all behind.

Yes. What about your extended family? Were you concerned that that was going to be brought back on to them? So we were trying to save them. We are trying to keep them safe. How? So in North Korea, they are doing investigation once there was an escape situation. And then it took generally takes like,

year and more. So after our escape, we never did any public activity. We never did an interview. We never, you know, went to public space, and we changed our name and birthday, hold identification. So we are trying to be a missing person from the prospective North Korean government. If we are under missing person, the category, North Korean regime couldn't punish my family. We are not officially defectors. We are officially missing. But if you're missing and your dad was such a well-known guy,

they're going to assume he left, right? It's not like you're a normal... So that's the normal, like, you know, sense, common sense. But I assume that some people... helped us inside North Korea, the investigation. So eventually they conclude us as a missing person. So they never punished my relatives. You know that. We knew that. But, you know, somehow the information we are in South Korea, the information that we live in South Korea are transferred to North Korea. So that's why North Korean regime showed my grandma and aunt

on the North Korean TV show to threaten us to come back. So they did find out. Yeah, I was really... You were trying to avoid that, but it ended up happening. I was so mad. Yeah. And then that time, my family, you know,

think that the South Korea cannot protect us. But you were already in South Korea at that point? Yes, we were in South Korea at the point. But you thought they couldn't protect you or couldn't protect your extended family? I mean, my family is. well like us the whole my direct family but they already got you to South Korea at that point yeah but to think about it we avoid any public appearance yet North

Korea got information that we live in South Korea and they put my family members on the TV show that we knew you are in South Korea please come back so how we can get the guarantee how we can I mean ensure our safety there what does that feel like seeing people that you love coerced into being on something and then when it shuts off having the unknown of what happens to them next which could very well include the absolute worst things absolutely we all terrified and then we worried their safety and then this is another signal that north korean regime gave us If you are staying South Korea or if you cooperate with South Korean government, your parents, your family members will be executed or like, you know, put in prison camp.

So that's why we, you know, we also thought that it's for our own safety, also our relative safety, it's better to leave South Korea. So that's another reason that we left South Korea only stayed in one year. South Korea. Did you go straight to the U.S.? No. So after that? No, we escaped October 2014, right? We went to South Korea. Yes. And then stayed a year. And then we came to United States in 2016, only 2016. What makes the U.S. better than South Korea to make them not want to execute your parents, aren't they an enemy that they consider two? But it's a better place for protection and then the

But not for your extended family who's still in North Korea No, the less punishment There's less punishment For you to be in the U.S. In the U.S., in other country Just because it's that personal with South Korea?

Internally, South Korea is the main enemy And even though we publicize U.S. is the main enemy, but internally South Korea is the main enemy. We are competing with South Korea and not United States So many people You know

Believe that staying in US is more safe than South Korea Can I back up for a second? There's so much on the bone here I mean it's It would be the understatement of the year to call all this part of your life a movie I mean it's it's beyond that It's the stakes are insane and and I can't even fathom it But when you once that dinner where you met the South Korean representative is over and he leaves your dad's Chinese friend leaves and then you and your dad

are walking home what what was that we had a conversation but I cannot set and there's another story that you know could be interpreted sure bad way but um um um there's another story we make a decision to go to South Korea if not and maybe we are not alive so anyway so that's the kind of we made a decision so we went to South Korea but you go home

and you say to your mom and sister pack your bags we're going yeah so we go we went home and then we brought the whole family to the park so we're afraid being taped in Chinese home so we put all

the devices, electric devices cell phones in the car the parking lot and then we went out in the park we just walked it's a near sea the Dalian city is near sea so we just went to park and then

like the place where people not there and then we discussed in that place so my dad opened the conversation and then you know my sister supported and then I also what about your mom my mom's worry about the families extended families yeah I mean me too like and then um she's worried about you know the families first and then later she said and then oh if we leave and then how we can leave what you know how she's worried about the you know living

after defection so I can't even it's not easy like you know abandoning everything and then you know restarting whole life in a you know like a new environment

language barrier and you don't have network and you don't have anything to you know stay to live in this country no money to take with you no money take with so I mean small money

because we did business right so not enough but so So, I mean, everything is like, you know, a lot of things in the mind, in the brain. We thought about, like, how we can sustain, how we can survive in this society after defection. But still, we believe that it's more than that, you know, and, yeah, ultimately we made a decision. on the one hand if you don't defect

you and all the family that comes after you continues the cycle more people like you if you think like that and don't defect don't get outside the country and provide hope in the future for information to get back in to end this madness but on the other hand

if you do defect you are accepting the fact that you may be signing the slave warrant or death warrant of people you love, that you will leave behind who realistically you cannot get out of there before you do this. It's either you go or nobody goes. And I can't even begin to try to understand how you grapple with that. I'm glad you guys made the decision you did because I think someone needs to get out. But, you know, this is not.

not even like fair to ask. I feel bad even asking this. But do you feel guilt about leaving people behind? I mean, that's another whole story. But, you know, after the Kim Jong-un's uncle's execution, we also got some, you know, not direct threat, but we also sense that the target could be arts. Like, you know, not in, you know, right away, but my dad actually met Kim Jong-un-Zanko before he was arrested 20 days ago. So he also had a, like, a security guy's interviews and what

conversation you guys did. But, but he didn't work under his apartment, the department. Yeah. So he's a little far from the, you know, punishment. And then he also, you know, gave them advice that, you know, Kim's uncle is high-profile person and every high-ranking official

knows him. If you punish people just meeting with him that's not, you know, you should kill whole people like a whole like a nation. So they kind of accepted and then like that. And then

another reason so my dad got offer from the North Korean government for the Ministry of Tourism, Minister of Tourism. To be the head ministerial? Yeah, head of the tourism. But my dad didn't want it because it's a really risky position. If he, something not happened, something bad happened to him.

He gets blamed. Not just the blame. We whole family executed. Even my extended family cannot survive. Whoa. So who the hell wants to take that job? Don't get surprised. In 2017, the director, it's a minister level,

but the director of the North Korea's tourism got executed. Yeah. Sounds. If my dad took that job, my dad executed. We were executed. That's fucking. That's our story. And then, you know, obviously we have.

kind of guilty for leaving families behind and then we later were trying to serve them but because pandemic we couldn't reach out them anymore but you don't even know where they are technically mean we can you know locate them but some of them are you know prison for life and some you know got the couldn't get the treatment the surgery so my cousin husband, he died. So that's the minimal, like, we were trying to reduce the damage.

Are there, like, defectors, diplomats, the people who, not relatives, the people who worked with him, for them, they're all sent to the poker prison camp because they make public activity announcement, criticize Kim regime, right up to defect so we were trying to avoid such tragedy so like at least you know we should we want to keep this damage to our family right but you tried the whole changing identity so you could just

be listed as a missing person but they obviously figured it out they pump these videos of your family members into south korea while you're there so did like the south korean government come to you and say hey we we want to show you something and they showed you the videos is that how you find No, it was on public. It was on the news. And then news outlets, South Korea news outlets cover the story. And then, you know, obviously they sent, you know, news. But after our defect from China, like we were in the South Korea's safe house facility for five months.

A safe house facility. Without internet, without serfants, without any communication devices. suspicious are you guys as spies? Is that why? No. No. It's a South Korean law, the mandatory system for three months investigation and education. And education. Yeah, like, you know, living in South Korean society. Most normal North Korean citizens, they don't experience the system. And then also to the high-ranking officials, it's 90 days. So, four months for investigation and also the you know intel they want to have but um think about it whole five months we had no you know exposure internet email or communication and after that we also

lived under the you know ground like you know hiding and suddenly north kron resume find out that And they put video on my, they put my grandmother video in January 2016. Okay. Yeah. So you've been in South Korea now for over a year technically. Over a year, technically. But we got the citizenship in March. So.

Citizenship to the U.S.? No, South Korea. So South Korea. Yeah. But so we came to U.S. in March. So basically. Because you got citizenship, you were able to. to do that yeah we were able to um get the passport and then um you know the south korea

i mean they they won't share the original north korean password with us so right so you have the passport and you guys decide that it would be politically better to be in the united states because if north korea finds that out they'll have less of a problem with that and maybe that'll mean some good things for some of your family, but it's hard to say. It's not just about that. But another important fact was my dad wanted to do something for people in North Korea. So he wanted to change the system. And we throughout the year in South Korea, we realized that the ultimate decision maker for Korean

peninsular issue is United States. So we are trying to get more sense And then influence the policy on the Korean peninsula So we choose come to the United States Okay Now Obviously you've never been here before Where did you first come when you came to the United States

And how does that Were you going there obviously with the intention To eventually live here So did you have to work diplomatically Ahead of time to declare asylum or anything like that Like how did this all work? Yeah we apply the sign Okay. Yeah, and then we choose, you know, near Washington, D.C., and, you know, this is the political center hub. So, yeah, we, you know, landed there and then still lived there.

You said you lived in New York at one point. Oh, that's for a graduate study. For a year? Yeah, for a year. So you've been here since 2016. Yeah. You seem to like it a lot. Yeah, it's almost 10 years.

Yeah, that's awesome. Do you think, do you think this whole situation made you and your family a lot closer to? Yeah. Yeah. You know, we don't have many friends, right? We don't have many networks. So we exchange the ideas, have conversation a lot between family members. So we encourage each other and then discuss each other.

Yeah. What's your sister up to here? my sister also went to graduate school so we graduate together she took a two-year program i took a one year mid-care program so we graduated the same university columbia excellent thank you and then um she returned to the uh dc um she is uh she started cybersecurity so she is preparing cybersecurity stuff and then yeah also we i We didn't really dig into this too much, but North Korea's got an insane cyber team as well. So does her work overlap with some cybersecurity related to them specifically or just in general?

Well, in general, yeah. But I'd prefer if you have a like, you know, special team for investigating North Korea's cyber, you know, attack against the United States. And I think, you know, it's a good thing. So I'm thinking about should I create a consulting form, you know, forming with the North Korean form of IT guys and the North Korean consultants to, you know, give more better sense, better briefing than other consulting firms. So how's it, how's it been for your parents? Obviously, they're from an older generation. They had to start all over here. What are they up to and how have they assimilated?

Obviously, their activities are limited, right? especially my mom and she's not active and then she is not good health so she stays home most of the most of the time but thanks to Netflix and she loves to watch Netflix they didn't have that in North Korea so that's a nice benefit it's compared to North Korea Netflix is like in a whole different you know the dimension yeah now is your dad given the fact that he had such high-level access for so long, you know, does he, is he approached on a consulting basis by, I don't know, people in the U.S. government or think tanks around there to give his opinion on North Korea and what's going on?

Yep. We've done dead. All right. We just had to cut out for one minute just because the details beyond the fact that John's dad and family has done any consulting the specifics we can't get into so we're not going to talk about that on mic right now but people can do the math obviously you guys know some good stuff so some good people you know in higher positions want to come to you to get information that's that's enough people can fill that in yeah so you've done some of that

and then you're doing work down in DC in working with think tanks and stuff as well publicly obviously Yep, yeah. I attend public events as a panel and then discuss various issues related to North Korea, like human rights, cybersecurity, and also nuclear stuff. And sometimes I get briefings. And next week, mid-July, actually, I lead a North Korean Young Leaders Assembly, which I found two years ago. and it's the program bring 10 North Korean escapees every year to give education how North Korean policy is made. And then I want to, you know, have them experience like the policymaking process in the United States.

So I arranged the meeting for the past two years, I arranged the meeting with the White House National Security Council, the Korea Desk director guys. and also the State Department officials, East Asia Bureau, and then Labor Department of Human Rights and Labor. And then in the Congress, yes, we do give a briefing, so we will have luncheon briefing next mid-July. Excellent.

Yeah, and then we do public testimony at the United Nations. We have a meeting with the U.S. ambassador, UN, mission, for the past two years, and also supported by the South Korean mission. We hold a public testimony, but as I mentioned earlier, now current South Korean government is more pro-North Korea. So at this time, we won't get any the public testimony supported by the South Korean mission. That complicates some things. Yeah, but U.S. always been a great supporter for North Korean human rights. And then this program is designed to raise for the future leaders, right?

It's all North Korean escapeists. They have a different background, like not elite class. Some of them couldn't serve the military because he wasn't under hostile class. Or like some of them, they have family members before escape like that. So we have a number of different backgrounds. But I want to give them more access and experience so that they can see and they can experience first hand here. That's awesome.

And it's really cool that you've, you know, taken the mission here to spread awareness, but also help the network of people who are rare, as we highlighted earlier, to be able to get out. But being somebody who was in the military special forces grew up in North Korea, your father was a high-ranking guy, you guys are high-profile defectees now living in, one of the countries that North Korea considers an enemy, do you ever fear for your safety?

So while we were in South Korea, it was a really threat to my family. And then even like South Korean intelligence service told us that there might be, you know, operations against your father. So we should be, you know, really careful and then do not do any public activity. So that's why we, you know, kept ourselves underground. But North Korea found us, right? And then I don't think North Korea can send agents to United States to, you know, to kill me or something like that. You don't think so? I mean, there's no guarantee, but I know some of, you know, my friends, friends, they are agents, you know, they have passports of, you know, the countries, like Asian countries.

so if they have mission they can easily travel to South Korea or come to United States yeah I think you know I'm glad I'm glad you're doing so well and I obviously I hope you're right about that that you know they they can't do that stuff

just you know you got to be as you don't need me to tell you but you got to be careful out there I mean there was even when Saddam was in power obviously different country but not exactly friends with the u.s he had a he had a place you can almost see it on this map right here on the wall it's about 10 streets off this map but he had a place across from michael bloomberg secret place where they would abduct political you know dissonance in the west there it is saddam hussein had a secret torture chamber in NYC right across the street from prominent billionaire who was later mayor of the city and it's

just like regimes like this you know far better than I do and everyone else listening they don't operate in the same realities we do so I definitely I hope to you know see you guys get support to be able to take precautions and stay safe because those people are crazy Thanks. I'm thinking about getting a gun. That would be a good start. I can hook you up with some, we can get you some help on that for sure. Great, great, yeah. I am a Second Amendment guy. I'm sure you are too.

I should be self-vigilance and safe careful, so I should carry a gun. I didn't think about it. And then, you know, I was surprised by my shooting skills. And then, you know, I thought I was a good, you know, shooting, you know, shooter. Yeah, I did when I was in Texas, visiting my friends, and then, oh, God, like... You got to get the tools back. No, nothing was imagined. We'll get you a good AR.

You'll be back to Earth, no problem. But what's the story with your thoughts on, I guess, some of the unfreezing of conversations between the U.S. and Kim Jong-un, obviously he's a very bad guy. We've laid that out six ways to Sunday today. Do you think there's anything positive that could come of that for the North Korean people, though? I had a thinking in a positive way. But so for the first summit between President Trump and Kim, we supported. I hope, yeah. Actually, we had a conversation with the NSC people and then gave them advice

and then how to deal with Kim Jong-un. So they made videos like that, but, you know, I think the whole conversation went off the, you know, road. So eventually, you know, they're praising each other like that. We didn't expect such a relationship. You're like, no, no, no, not like that. No, no, no. Yeah, so, yeah, we are not like, you know, the, you know, like a breach for the lovemaking process. Right. So, but I'm sure, you know, Trump has his own strategy. And, you know, that's always he did, like, you know, praising and suddenly, you know, saying that, oh, this, like, I.

But I guess, you know, Trump's strategy is trying to make him happy. happy, Kim happy, and then not refrain him to doing stupid activity against the United States. But since he utilized this strategy, a tactic a lot, and Kim won't bite it this time. And also, this time, he has a better ally, Russia. So the conversation won't be easier than last time. Right. But another threat is recently Iran nuclear facility strike might be good, you know, threat to Kim Jong-un. It's a tangible threat.

I understand what you're saying. It's more. Like we could do that to you, too, kind of deal. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a credible threat. So when Kim Jong-un perceived that, you know, strike as a credible threat, and then he may into conversation with Trump. but still

you know we have to see but I'm not the positive right now yeah do you think you'll see a regime change in the next couple decades

do you think it's possible I hope so and then it should be like really hope that Kim Jong-un you know change his mind

and then free people and make country open society. But, you know, we knew that he wouldn't do that. So only way is Kim Jong-un is naturally die. Or he, you know, hand up his power to his, you know, siblings or other person, non-Kin family member. Ideally, non-Kin family member is ideal, but... Are they going to be any better, though? You know what I mean?

It's so hard to even assume that. Very good question. Many people ask the same question. How we can guarantee next leader is not second game. Fourth Kim effectively, if you really want to look at it that way. I wouldn't say Kim family, the same game will act differently, but non-Kin family member has a room to discuss this stuff. So he's basically free from the human rights violations for the past seven decades.

It's not his family did, right? So newly the non-Kin family member could, you know, open this conversation, human rights violations. And also, you know, you know, most North Korean high-ranking officials, they are in favor of opening society. They knew Chinese people, like top officials, made a huge amount of money while they are doing openness, like in 1980s. they love money too they want to make money but because of Kim family you know restricted openness

they cannot they are basically feeding by Kim Rijun with small portion of food and the luxury and they have to be satisfied that but they don't like that in like that situation so I think

you know a new leader from non-Kim family has courage and room to discuss such issues. So before, you know, that person is leaning towards the China, the U.S. and the Western society should approach that person to give education and then the offers. Yeah. Right. Back to it a little bit. Yeah. One of the things, and it's far too simplistic to think this way, but I've thought about this all the time,

probably for the last decade, is how no one's killed that guy. Like, I understand he rules with an iron fist, so I get it. I do, like, on the other hand, I get why he's not dead, but do you ever wonder how at some point, you know, some military general doesn't just say,

just someone take this guy's head off? Yeah, that's a possibility. And then the real, you know, opportunity for anybody is the security guys for Kim Jong-un. The guys that run next to the cars? Yes, those guys. They have a gun.

Other than that, other military generals, they cannot carry guns. And then if there's a Kemp related events, they have a multiple layer of security. So even like getting close to Kim Jong-un is

very challenging the moment. But one guy takes out the gun and says fuck it yeah yeah that's the you wonder how everyone else would react would they be like okay or would they be like kill them yeah you don't know that's very idea yeah it would be what do you think you know as someone who's seen both sides of the curtain I would imagine you have a value on freedom that even I could never comprehend what do you think when you see political strife in America and, you know, maybe sometimes some trends that aren't the best, do you think that's a part of the healthy political process of freedom

or do sometimes you feel like we take it for granted here? From the beginning, I couldn't understand the political battle between those two parties. And then sometimes I thought it's premature, like they are arguing. And then in North Korea and the dictator countries, just if the leader decides, that's like straight away they're doing. So sometimes I think it was effective, but more time I spend the United States. I think the political battle is actually the process to getting more the healthy decision. I mean, I don't say there was a like they wasn't flow, but, you know, still it's the check and balance.

So I really think, you know, if you think about North Korea, new system, then we need to adopt the, you know, separation of power and then check and balance. And then the freedom parts, sometimes when I have inner view and then on my YouTube channel, some people make a comment, like there are three different reactions. First, people, you know, comments, you know, welcome to free society. encouraged. I really appreciate that. The second reactions. Some people made the comments like, hey, you're the guy in our elite class and you're the same guy who oppressive these people, right? And then suddenly you did affect and then you promote North human rights.

Those people have no idea. So North Korea still pursue a socialist system and we don't have any asset we cannot hire any person personally and we cannot take all the assets from those people right especially my dad like administration the economic official they are not you know take an advantage of people's life he's the work officer working official in that system and not like in a political leader security leader they encourage the people press people taking bribery. So the people should understand the different, you know, the system in North Korea. And then we never thought that we are the, you know, the class to oppress or we are in the position to oppress people. So that's the, you know, the thing that I want to argue with them.

And the third was really, I'm not mad, but people. called me like a trader. You know, you betrayed a country, a trade of nation. North Korea. Yeah. And then they said that, oh, you should be shamed of yourself, will abandon this country like that. But I laughed because, you know, this person who made the comments like that, you know, he never, I'm sure he been to North Korea, but he never lived as a North Korean citizen and then criticizes escapies as the betrayed. That's right. Yeah, and then traitor.

I was saying that, you know, no one betrayed North Korea. The real person who betrayed the people was the Kim family. Absolutely. You know, for seven decades. King family, you know, promised they will provide rice and meat soup on the people's food table. That one promise never fulfilled. for seven decades. Now, how come, you know, people betrayed the regime?

I mean, I would say the regime, the leaders betrayed its own citizens. So, you know, I was like, you know, yet, think about it. He's, you know, trolling on social media, on the Internet. The country never allows Internet and social media. And why don't, you know, if he thinks that country is a great country and then why he goes, you know, North Korea to live? there. Yeah. Number one, don't take the comments. Seriously. Let's just start there. Number two, fuck the people

who are saying anything negative. They don't know anything. Number three, I have no doubt many of them come from a North Korean bot form. All right. So they're not, you know, they're a disinformation country. They're going to obviously spread disinformation about the people that pose the most threat to their ability to control everyone. So I wouldn't, I fully understand why you take that personally, and it's tough for me to say, I wouldn't read it. But surprisingly, in United States, there's a sympathize of North Korean regime. Who? In California, like many Korean Americans. Oh, God. Even like American, like some American people, they have sympathizers, and they criticize. Sympathizers. Yeah. With Kim. With Kim family. So like that. The American,

Their argument is this. North Korean people suffered from poverty and is suffering because of the United States. Oh, God. Because the United States sanctioned them because the United States initiate the world Korean war. That is, that is, what's the Chamath line? That is below my line or whatever. That's an IQ test. All right.

If people are saying that, I think their IQ is just a little bit low for the conversation and we'll end it right there. I mean, come on, man. sympathize and that's crazy I'm not saying the U.S. is perfect I'm not saying we do perfect things around the world trust me we talk about some of the things on the show that we don't do that's great but like you got to be fucking kidding me I cannot agree with you more but those people surprisingly graduate Harvard Georgetown law I want to see their degrees I want to see their degrees and I want to I would like to see their prescriptions let's also see that let's let's check out the SSRIs hopping on there sorry

Well, listen, John, we've been talking for well over five hours at this point. Your story is absolutely incredible. There's one other thing I want to ask you before we go, and then I'll finally let you out of here. Thanks for being here for so long. But, you know, we talked earlier about the physical life in episode one, about the physical life and the political life. And that's really the only way that people have an understanding of what exists beyond the physical part of this world. And there's no religion in North Korea. But now that you've been here for a decade, have you used to be here.

thought more about what there is beyond what we have on this earth and what that might be like? Or is that something you still haven't really gotten to? I mean, spiritually? Yeah, spiritually, I don't care what your beliefs are or aren't. I'm just curious if that's something that now and the freedom of being able to examine these things you've thought about and I've had a new consideration on the meaning of your life. So my focus is more like in how we can liberate this country, how we can adapt. new system in the country.

So from that perspective, I thought about, you know, the main things we need to establish first, like, you know, the freedom of religion. That's a core part. And then people need religion to, you know, create a community and then establish this, you know, belief system in the society. And the other thing is the rule of law. In North Korea, law is not governed. There's no law above.

Kim Jong-un and Kim families is above law. They set the law. Yeah, they set the law. We never discussed the law when it comes to punishment or when it comes to government ruling. So, I mean, I don't even know the term like lawyer. We don't have a lawyer in North Korea. There's no real courts effectively, right?

There was a court and then prosecutor, but I never heard the lawyer. Right. Yeah. Right, meaning it's like a fake court. There's a fake. Yeah, they're just the government decide, you know, the regime decide. So like that. So I saw like, you know, because of absence of law and the freedom of religion,

that two, you know, things must be incorporated in a new system so that people, you know, rely on more at the rule, I mean, laws and in religion to exercise their freedom more. and then now I'm still learning I'm not a religious person I've been to church several times but I'm still not getting to that but I'm trying to learn yeah that's awesome yeah do things at your own speed it's it's an amazing story and all my love to your family as well for what they've been through and I think you did an incredible job representing it today but everybody can check out your story obviously here where else would you like them to go are there are there some links we can put down there to the organizations you work with

that would be helpful yeah sure absolutely first of all thank you so much for inviting me this podcast i really enjoyed and uh before i you know come to uh your studio today i also you know research it and i think it's really fun you know podcast and you know remember audience, we, you know, make a great recommendation for, you know, peace building, you know, Michael Jordan and also. So I think this podcast could be, you know, phenomenal podcast for not just, you know, getting knowledge, but also, you know, meaningful contribution to the community. And, and then one thing I want to promote is my YouTube channel. Link in description below. Yes. And then I also make myself.

as the Mr. North Korea. My YouTube channel is not Mr. North Korea, but I got the idea, you know, on Instagram and the TikTok. I frame myself as a Mr. North Korea. So I got to add you on Instagram. We'll put that link down below too. And then mentioned during our podcast, my program called North Korean Young Leaders Assembly,

and we are doing programs. So, hopefully people who are interested and then, you know, please support these young leaders. So, yeah. Excellent. Thief, can we just make a note? We'll have a link to this, a link to the Instagram, and a link to YouTube down below unless you'll get on that. But, Jan, thank you so much, man. Thank you.

Thank you. That's great. All right. Everybody else, you know what it is? Give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace. Thank you guys for watching the episode.

If you haven't already, please hit that subscribe button and smash that like button on the video. both a huge, huge help. And if you would like to follow me on Instagram and X, those links are in my description below.