Julian Dorey Podcast - #335 - The Blackstone Shooter, Cartel US Networks, Darkest Crime & Shawn Ryan | Dalton Fischer

Episode Date: September 14, 2025

SPONSORS: 1) PRIZEPICKS: Visit https://prizepicks.onelink.me/LME0/JULIAN and use code JULIAN and get $50 in lineups when you play your first $5 lineup! PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/JulianDorey (***TIMESTAMPS in Description Below) ~ Dalton Fischer is the podcast host of the Dalton Fischer Podcast which covers topics with guests ranging from CIA insiders, operators, and other geopolitical experts. DALTON'S LINKS: YT: https://www.youtube.com/@DaltonFischerPodcast/featured IG: https://www.instagram.com/daltonfischerpodcast/?hl=en FOLLOW JULIAN DOREY INSTAGRAM (Podcast): https://www.instagram.com/juliandoreypodcast/ INSTAGRAM (Personal): https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey/ X: https://twitter.com/julianddorey JULIAN YT CHANNELS - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Clips YT: https://www.youtube.com/@juliandoreyclips - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Daily YT: https://www.youtube.com/@JulianDoreyDaily - SUBSCRIBE to Best of JDP: https://www.youtube.com/@bestofJDP ****TIMESTAMPS**** 00:00 – Montana trip, lifestyle travel, Julian inspires Dalton to “burn the ships” 08:21 – Starting point, paralysis by analysis, daunting beginnings 15:16 – Calling podcasters for advice, Danny Jones, John Kiriakou 27:56 – John Kiriakou’s storytelling, Clark Fredericks story, abu5er grooming tactics 39:22 – Worst things that can be done 52:07 – Why Shawn Ryan inspires Dalton, empowering team, criticism of big figures 01:00:25 – Founder burnout, sacrificing relationships, Julian’s peace after grandfather’s passing 01:07:02 – Lessons from grandfather’s passing, finality, watching last breath 01:16:35 – Dalton on death, Hormozi on mortality, afterlife, connecting with Brent Tucker 01:27:27 – People off cam, Brent Tucker, Delta Force vs SEALs, NYPD active shooter training 01:37:30 – Police officers school shootings, common sense gun laws 01:47:58 – Blackstone shooter, Shawn Ryan & Tucker, CIA infiltration 01:57:08 – Deciding validity of CIA narratives, divided society, does your vote matter? 02:03:39 – Episode w/ Rick Spence, spectrum of guests, China, Mariana Van Zeller 02:14:11 – Cartels in US, Matt Hedger 02:24:43 – Complex operations, Scott Payne episode, undercover work 02:40:57 – Scott’s entry into undercover world, living through guests, 9/11 & Tim Brown 02:51:01 – Terror & unification, how things are said 03:03:25 – Dalton's work CREDITS: - Host, Editor & Producer: Julian Dorey - Producer & Editor: Alessi Allaman - https://www.youtube.com/@UCyLKzv5fKxGmVQg3cMJJzyQ - In-Studio Producer: Joey Deef - https://www.instagram.com/joeydeef/ Julian Dorey Podcast Episode 335 - Dalton Fischer Music by Artlist.io Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

These are incredible stories, man. They are the best of humanity, the worst of humanity. The last episode I did was with a guy named Clark Fredericks. He was abused by his close family friend before he was 10 years old. Became a drug addict, a gambling addict, spiraled as you would. And one day, he saw Dennis Pegg with another little boy. He drives to his house, kicks his front door open, and he's got a knife in his hand. Dennis turns to the door and stab him to death.

He never told anyone prior to that night. And that's part of the reason that I had him on, because he talks about. about how to deal with this. Fuck, man, especially I love here about terrorists getting smoked, obviously. So I had Brent Tucker on my show. He was a former Delta Force operator. He told the story about Chris Robinson. He picked up Chris's body.

He carried it to the helicopter. That's your best friend, man. Where the fuck else are you going to hear a story like that? I forget the actual circumstances of how he got killed, but those are the guys that are doing the Bidlaid race. So did you happen to see Sean on Tucker? He talked about the CIA infiltrating podcasts. And I know one of them I'm right about.

Hey guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five-star review. They're both a huge huge help. Thank you. in the woods just picked up hiking yeah i uh gosh that's that's been one of those things that's been on my list for a long time and uh and dude the the thing about it is you can't just go out into the wilderness willy-nilly and fuck around and uh you know people get killed doing that sort of thing so i was like okay i know that i want to do this uh but i need to educate myself and be safe and not make sure it make sure that i don't get eaten by a bear in the woods

uh and uh and and that sort of thing so again i just been putting it off and um and yeah bro also like i don't know if you can relate to this but all my friends are domesticated and married and have children now and i'm the last remaining uh it's like a half and half for me yeah so you and i mean you know obviously we work 24-7 but we or have the lifestyle that we can kind of just pick up and do things and my friends don't so i've been i have all these trip ideas in my mind even for like a short weekend thing and you know nobody's ever down to just send it um so yeah anyway long story short i i picked up hiking one of my friends lives out in colorado she's super into it i learned a bunch from her and uh yeah man i just been doing these

little weekend trips and living in the city dude it's uh it gets the after a while and there's something like you restorative about nature for me and just walking around and like doing a little bit of suffering too you know do some hard hikes and just fucking breed some fresh air and i come back feeling like like a different man you know see you know i think there's a fine balance between it right like i'm a huge city guy i like being around a lot of people but like you know you're here every day for so long yeah we're naturally inclined to kind of be out there breathing the fresh air smell nature live among it a little bit and i love that little getaway yeah once in a while which i didn't even do for like the first four and a half years of this podcast until i went to the amazon

But, like, there's something very resetting about that. The Amazon's a little different than Colorado on my 10, I'd say. It's actually a lot safer than you think. Believe it or not. We should talk about that. But, yeah, dude, one thing, I don't know if you can relate to this, too. Just, like, everybody out west is just nicer than they are here. Oh, yeah.

Like, when I'm walking, like, when I would go by myself and go sit in a hotel bar and just start, like, striking up conversations with people. And, like, if you just did that here, for example, walking on the street in New York City, somebody would look at you like you guys. Fuck is wrong with you. Yeah, like you get a dick on your forehead or something. And, like, it just, you know, I'm out there and I just, I like the person that I am in that situation more. So I'm like, okay, you know, fuck that.

I need to bring that back here and be that guy because you and I, like, we enjoy asking questions and getting to know people and, like, having conversations. Absolutely. Can't let these New Yorkers dissuade you from being yourself, Julian, you know? I love it. And it depends where you go to, like, where you're talking about, like, out in God's country. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, there's, there's a lot of people who are like, well, how you doing? and they're so nice and it's and it's very cool but if you juxtapose like new york with

la you know in new york they'll be like oh fuck yourself yeah what they tell you that to your face and it's a term of endearment in l.a they say hey how you doing and the minute you turn your back they stab you like oj or like oj did you get my point that's a valid point like it's the same kind of thing yeah but in it in a in a very ass backwards passive way so i'll take the east coast on that and also i love the rush of the action i love like you know you walk outside and there's a homeless person next to like a billionaire and it's like what's going to happen at the bodega right there i don't know but i'm going to stand here and watch like there's something beautiful that is nature itself i know that's a valid point and it is nice being able

to order food after like 9 p.m and that's right yeah how do you even do that out there like do do they have uber eats is that a thing bro i was just surviving on fucking uncrustibles and rx bars you know you got to do you got to do uncrustibles yeah you don't like uncrustable no i don't like on crustables that's got like the seed oils you can't be having any of that yeah you know it's one of those things you got to just you got to just let it rip sometimes like i guess so i guess so you look like you work out see you right yeah well that's we were just talking about off camera i lose a couple pounds every time i go on a hiking trip but uh you know i was like if there's ever a podcast that i could rock a sleeveless i know you should have done it in fact before you said that i was going to go

change my shirt i know next time when in rome next time anyway but dude Listen, I really enjoy your podcast. It's nice to see you've been sticking with it and staying with it a while. I think I first met you when you were about maybe five, six months into it and a few episodes in. But the editing that you do as someone who owes my entire career to being able to, like, do some editing. Like, I really appreciate it. It's the intricacy of the cuts, the way you use the music to get people hooked on it. And then having, you know, three, four, five hour conversations on very dense subject.

matter as well with some really serious people it is it's it's hard to do and you put it all together really really well so you've been out at a while and and you know i just want to show my respect to that and and have have you in here to talk about it thank you bro i appreciate you saying that um i appreciate having me it's cool to be here because i watched you when you at your parents house before i started my show and that's part of the reason why when when you sent that text and you know to invite me on the show i was like it that's not not an invite that i'd turn down um and i have i have turned a bunch down just to be frank not that like i'm a hot commodity or something but like i just you know man like it's a contrary to popular belief like people think like if you have a podcast you enjoy

being in the public eye and for me you know if you look at the way my show set up it's it's entirely about the guest and that's for a number of reasons but one of them is because i I really don't like the attention. So again, you're popping my cherry here being that I'm on the other side of the camera. But again, I think that's also only fair that I do a podcast where I'm doing a lot of talking because it's, you know, I'm interviewing people. I'm keeping my mouth shut. They're doing a lot of talking. And it's, I think it's fair for me to be on the other side of the table, so to speak.

But, but yeah, bro, thank you for having me. It's cool to see what you've done. And you were part of the reason, and we'll talk about this, but, you know, you were one of the people that inspired me to start my own show and mainly because like I you know I know your story I I know how you started and how you just quit your job and fucking sent it and bought a bunch of shit from B&H and like started in your parents house and you were like subconscious proof to me that it was possible that you could just pull it out of thin air you know what I mean um and that and dude like everything that I know about shorts I picked up from you so thanks for that but anyway that's awesome to hear hell yeah man i mean look i it's it's hard as you well know but it's the kind of thing where if you're willing to burn the boats and you have some level of talent at it's not to say you're good on day one but like there's something you can work with there that you can improve upon it's possible it's just like you know i were talking before camera

you know kind of shutting off your life to go do something anything it doesn't have to be a podcast, it would be starting a business. All my business owners out there know exactly what I'm talking about. That's kind of a daunting task because in some ways it's like the rest of the world will keep going and you have to press pause on yours but time's still moving. So kudos to you for actually doing that. But like was this something you wanted to do years ago and you were just waiting for the right moment to hit? Or why did it start when it started in 2023 um so yeah i think probably around it was like 2020 uh right after right after covid maybe i started getting heavy into like a lot of self-improvement stuff um started reading a lot of the i don't know

like self-help is kind of the shitty term to use but you know all those books um and listening to podcasts and interviews and stuff like that and uh so i started getting on that kick and um just trying to Honestly, man, just start to understand myself and learn more about myself and that sort of thing. And just kind of by extension, I started listening more to podcasts and getting on YouTube and listening to interviews and that sort of thing. And I got to a point where, like, I don't know, maybe 2022 or something like that. It was pretty fast. I had just, I just started feeling like a pull to do it. What were you doing at the time?

Workwise. Sell and software. So, and that was. That sounds wild. Well, it's, you know, it's not going to light your soul on fire. I was going to say that wild was so bad for boring. I mean, some people it does. And hey, God bless.

Like, I'm happy for you. But again, bro, there's a lot of wonderful perks of that job. Number one is it's very autonomous. So, you know, I had actually, I mean, your manager will make her break you in any role, I guess. But I had, shout out to Eric. He was an epic manager, super cool. Let me do my thing. And, you know, bro, I was working from my apartment.

in my underwear on my fucking laptop right over here uh yeah yeah you living in jersey city yeah uh so so yeah i had a lot of time to listen to podcasts um and and that's kind of how it started but what was your original question well i was saying you know like what made you jump when you did oh yeah so into it like full force so dude i uh i don't know i kind of felt that pull and i was just telling deep off this uh telling deep this a second ago off camera like i think that people have a lot of ideas that bounce around in their head and they think about like you know it's a stupid question but like if money was no object or like you know ideas even if it's you know starting a business or you know if you're into cooking like me you want to start an instagram where you know

you cook or whatever people have these ideas and they there's a million reasons that they give themselves not to do it right the problem with that is one day you wake up and you regret having not done it because you're you're too old and now you're fucked and like in my in my life man like my one uh the thing that scares me the most is regrets and so i think it's bezos this is a bezos but like this regret minimization framework regret minimization framework yeah framework i might have thrown framework in there i don't know but uh yeah it's a bezos thing i don't know uh fucking dr evil but uh yeah it's just basically man like i i i just want to do things to not wake up one day with regrets so like you know you just pull the trigger on

something and don't worry about um you know all the potential consequences so that was it for me man i just didn't want to wake up having not done it just feeling that sort of slight pull towards it you know what i think about sometimes with this because i understand exactly what you're saying i had all the same thoughts if you will but if i had consciously taken the time to think about and like quantify in my head all of the things that would be required for me to even get this thing off the ground and and then let's even assume i had a magic superpower and i could know exactly what it looked like when i started to do that like how this kind of edit would happen or what would need to be required to this which i didn't know that if i had thought about all those things even the stuff i knew and then the stuff maybe i could have magically known i would have never began and so there's something about just being like fuck it to use your term send it and go where it's like well now I don't have a choice and like today is in my control and I'm going to make what I can of it and try to move this thing you know 0.01% forward from where it was yesterday and you seem to get that because it's not uh there's no way that you can properly

fully plan for stuff there's only ways in my opinion that you can outline a plan of like all right here's here's the five important things I need to accomplish like in generalities and then whatever the fucking 7,000 things that come out of that are, we'll figure that out as we go along. And just don't think about it. Just put your head down and go. This episode is brought to you by prize picks. You and I make decisions every day,

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using code Julian in the app to get $50 in lineups after you play your first $5 lineup. Yeah, I would agree. And I think there's, um, there's, there's an element of to me being strategic about it. So like you want to do planning on the front end, but there's also such a thing as analysis paralysis, right? So like you can dig yourself into a hole where you want it to be perfect and then you never end up putting something out. But you got to pull the trigger eventually. Um, and that's dude, that's something, you know, Mr. B says, right? He's like, you can, you know, you want to, obviously, it's when you put something out, like

something that we do, it's a reflection of you and it's a reflection of me. And like, especially if, you know, you just come out with it kind of out of nowhere and you're like, this is me, this is my work. This is what I'm doing. It's, it's a reflection of you. So obviously, you want it. If you care about it and I care deeply about this, you want it to be, you want it to be great. And so, like, you know, it's easy to sit there and think about like, okay, I want this to be perfect and this to be perfect, but eventually, like, again, by all conventional Mr. Beast YouTube logic, nobody's going to see your shit for a really long time, which is, we can talk about that, that didn't end up being the case for me because I got really lucky.

Dude, I got, you know, I got lucky with John, and we can, I'll tell you that story about how we got there, but, uh, quick question for you. Yeah. When you went down with John to, when he was recording with Danny Jones, one of the many times, like a few years ago, before you launch your podcast. You know, like Danny's one of my best friends. I've been down there a bunch. I know how amazing his operation is and how long it took to build it

and all the work that he puts into it. When you were sitting in there, you know, I think this is relevant for people out there thinking about doing something and being overwhelmed by what they already see if people have done it before them. Was there a party that's like, holy shit? Like, how that fuck could I ever get it to this level? Yeah, that's a good question. And I'm glad you asked it because, like, I'll tell people the story.

Because I don't want to make it seem like I just, I have the balls to just pull the trigger and like I just knew because no it is exceptionally daunting in the beginning there's a million things that you have to learn and like you said if you think about it that way if you think about oh my god this is this sea of stuff that I have to wrap my head around then you know you're never going to figure it out that's right so that's what happened in the beginning actually is so dude to be what's funny is when I had this original idea I was just going to do like a remote podcast i was going to do zooms i was just going to be like because it was one of those things where i was like i just i'll just try it just to tell myself that i did it right i don't remember when it changed

to in person anyway long story short um i had like a period where i was starting to kick the idea around it hadn't bought any equipment hadn't hadn't committed to anything and one of the first things i did was i reached out to podcasts that i watched so uh you were one of them i called you you didn't answer um you called me i called you yeah yeah i think ed you have caller ID yeah apparently not you i get like 40 spam calls a day i know that's a thing dude somebody calls me now and i'm like who the fuck is this and they're like oh it's so and so and make sure i don't have your number block yeah yeah no you're good um but uh but yeah no you're good so i called you i called Danny and Sean Ryan and called Sean Ryan yeah he didn't answer I was going to say he probably

called no no I'm I think I texted it I don't know yeah like block this guy um oh yeah we'll talk about Sean I because I think uh you know I obviously I fucking model my whole whole show off his I think he's the goat uh we talk about that incredible bro unreal dude unreal um so I think it was just the three you guys and then one more guy I forget his name he doesn't even have he doesn't even do a podcast anymore which is the funny part going back to your original point like longevity is is tough in this game yeah it is so i reached out to people and um danny was the one person that answered and i called him when he was at the gym and it's dude in retrospect like this is it's kind of stupid like when people reach out to me now and they're like hey like how do how do i how do i start something like what do you recommend

me doing like i wouldn't recommend doing what i did what i'm about to tell you because like it just doesn't make a ton of sense. But I called Danny and I was like, hey, man, like, this is who I am. Like, I'm thinking about starting a podcast. Like, I respect what you've done. You've built a cool brand and like, you know, one that I'd like to emulate. Would you be open to just like discussing kind of lessons learned, things that you wish you would have known before you started? And the reason that I say that I wouldn't recommend doing that is because like I basically just fucking call this guy out of nowhere, like, and asked him for his time. And he doesn't know me. And I'm not providing any value to him in return and like again i caveat that by saying like people want to help people

and like i'd love to help people if again if you reach out to me like willy-nilly like oh like with some stupid shit but like that that's one thing but if you if you call if you reach out to me and you were like i'm super passionate about this i've done my research on the front end like that's a whole other thing anyway so i hit danny up and he's he was like uh he was just kind of called off guard. He's like, dude, I'm like, I'm at the gym. This is kind of weird. Like, uh, it's so funny. That's totally fair. Um, he's like, let me think about it. I was like, dude, I appreciate it. Thank you for your time. So, uh, it's the phone. You know what? And I, I admire the balls. It's the phone call thing that's like what the fuck is. First of all,

I don't even check those because they're all spam. But secondly, like, and that's what kind of guy Danny is, though, too. Like, he thinks a lot like I do. Someone reaches out on email. Now, I do have 93,000 unread emails but the ones that I see like I take to this day like I do the calls I'll do calls with someone and they never have anything to offer I don't expect that it's just like I never really did that on my way up but I recognize so many people as the years go on it gets more and more daunting to try to do this so I'm like I really wish like if I had had like a buddy that you know could kind of tell me like a mentor to kind of tell me some things to do that would have been awesome for me so I like to be that for other people and obviously like Danny does too

And it's cool. He took the call. Yeah. So, yeah, we didn't really, like, get into it at all. And what happened was, like, I was like, dude, thanks for your time. And then, like, probably, I think a month went by, two months went by. And I just get, like, an email randomly from him. And he's like, I forget what it said.

Like, I probably have it somewhere. But he was like, hey, man, like, who are you? Like, what's your story again? And so we start going back and forth on email. And long story short, like, I ended up helping him with some guest outreach. because I did sales and so basically like I would hit people up for him and be like hey like this is the Danny Jones podcast like I'd like to essentially sell you on on coming on the show and looping back to my original point like not everything has to be a

value exchange but I just the principle that I'd recommend to people is that if you just provide value to people for long enough and don't ask for anything in return most people are good people and eventually they're going to be like hey what can I do for you you know what I mean so like if you're if you're doing something for somebody like Danny to his credit he offered to pay me and you know I declined I was like dude I don't want your money like I just like I honestly I just I wanted to help him out because at the time like I just you know I felt that that was that was worth it and um and yes I started helping him out with that and again to the same point eventually

Danny was like hey man like what what can I do for you and I was like well funny you ask like this all this stuff that we can see on this table right now is exceptionally wanting to me. Like, I don't know how, I have no media experience. I don't know how cameras work. I don't know how sound works. So, um, I was like, I forget I would I ask them. I was like, do, would it be okay if I like came out to Tampa and checked out your studio and just like, um, if you have a podcast coming up, I could see how the cameras are fed into your computer and, you know, the mics are wired into the recorder and like get an actual visual, um, concept of, of how this shit works. Right. And he's like, yeah, I have a, I have a podcast coming up. whenever it was, May, something, he's a come out for that. And it was John. So, yeah, got there, watched him do his thing. It was super cool to be. That's a good one to watch. Oh, my gosh, man. Yeah, John is, you know, you've had him on a couple times. He's a fucking pro dude. He's a pro. But yeah, long story short, they did the podcast. The three of us went to lunch afterwards.

And then John and my flight, John's in my flight were like an hour apart. So we took an Uber to the airport and then waited for our flights together, had coffee, shot the shit. And I just told him, I was like, um, because he's like, why are you out here? And I was like, I'm, uh, Danny's make a wish kid, um, but, uh, and I told him I was a guy. That sounds great, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's like, oh, really, really. Uh, but I was like, yeah, dude, I'm, I'm starting one of these things up and, you know, once, once I get it up and running, I'd love to have you. And, uh, he's like, cool, let's do it. And I was like, okay, this is, that's another thing, man. So, dude, but this is like, this was my, like,

like send it moment. It wasn't as cool as yours when you just said fuck it and bought the equipment, but I don't know, that's pretty cool sitting in an airport with John Kiroaka and being like, well, you'd be my first guess like, dude, it was so cool. But I also thought I was like, what if he's just being polite and like, what if I now go

home and buy 10 grand worth of equipment and then I call John Kriaku and fuck you. Exactly. He's like, who are you? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So and he didn't owe me anything, man. I didn't even have a platform. But yeah, so that was That was the moment that I sent it and bought everything and started doing test runs with shit and committed to it.

And then I texted him in whatever it was in July or something. And he said yes. And he came out in September and that was it. Well, I mean, it's awesome, bro. But jokes aside, like having John is the first guy to sit down with? Like you said, you've been thinking about doing the Zooms or whatever, but you hadn't done that. you hadn't sat down with anyone and anything previously before, right?

Right. Before doing that. Correct. So the first time I sat down to do it, it was me talking to a camera and my fucking cousin was sitting there going like this, he's thrown away his whole life. You know, so like low bar, right?

And then, you know, for the first 86 episodes, the requirement was, can you breathe and, you know, can you occasionally talk and you can come over and do it? So I got to ease my way into it. But you start off out of the gate with, you know, a guy who, was top 25, probably at CIA, the most prolific whistleblower at CIA in modern history,

a geopolitical genius, a personality that is rarefied air to say the least, someone who has been in the most dangerous situations and arrested some of the most dangerous people, someone who's had assassination, like all this shit. And this is the first guy that you sit down with at your undisclosed studio location. You know, wink, wink. But, you know, like, were you nervous about that at all? Oh, yeah. Oh, fuck yeah, dude.

I'm, uh, I'm nervous now, bro. I still get nervous. You still get nervous. Yeah, and less so. I mean, this is also different. This is the first time that I'm, like, talking a lot and on someone else's podcast. So it's a different sort of... You're good at it.

You should do it more. We'll see. We'll see. I honestly, man, I doubt it. I doubt it. I don't, like I said, this was a different circumstance because it's you. Oh, thanks. I'm going to make a wish kid now

And I'll do Dude I feel bad Rondy has been I was in a different state of mind To be fair I was going through some shit Earlier in the year And I just

It wasn't the right time For me to talk Our boy Johnny Rondy Yeah he's the man He's been super supportive of me He's such a great dude So like I'll have to do his After that's the reason

Deaf sitting here He introduced me and Dief years ago Really? Yeah yeah John Rondy We're talking about Johnny Drinks Also to host a John Rondy podcast But you know He's

over the years, I have so many great friendships that started with him. In addition to being great at what he does and being a really great guy, he's also this super connector and knows how to match people well and who's going to get along with who. And you need people like that in your life. And you're lucky to have them when you do. Yeah, for sure. No, I love that. But, yeah, what was the original question?

Sorry. Yeah, we were saying we were talking about how you don't really go on the mic that much. But we were talking about, more importantly, the fact that you're very, first one is right fucking john kiyaku um yeah i have an interesting short-term memory if you haven't noticed but yeah it's all right i'll keep the weave going yeah dude there's just there's so many things floating around on this head a lot of stuff that i don't want to be and you know how it is you know i understand that completely that's why i'm here yeah fair enough um but yeah dude it was uh i dude i was super nervous man that he like you said he's been on you know it's been on

fucking fox news he's on your television like tucker carlson like super reputable guy but at the same time like In retrospect, he was the perfect first guest for me to have because for him, like, you just keep your mouth shut and let him roll. And that's all you got to do. And like, do your research on the front end to have good questions to ask him. And for me, man, like I, you know, I over prepared and probably could have, so I actually watched that interview back because I just had him on again. And I'll be putting that out this Sunday.

But so I watched that interview back and there was a lot of threads that I would have pulled on if I was more comfortable as an interviewer being in the moment and like, because you have to practice active listening. Like you can, I think that like if you're, again, if you're starting a podcast, you can, you can solve a lot of problems by preparation, meaning like if you're not an established interviewer and you don't have that skill, the more you prepare, the more questions you'll have in the moment. So like, again, long winded way of saying, yeah, I just, I would have, I would have. would have i would have done it a little differently and i did we had a great podcast this time around but john is like you do you ask him a question and he just lets it rip and that's the thing about these intelligence guys and special operations guys if you go through there and again this is something i got from sean ryan if you just go through their career chronologically like you can do a fucking six hour podcast and it exactly and it just goes by before you know it so um yeah

man there's a lot of estuaries with them a lot of off ramps too so you could be looking at that's someone's career from 1997 to 2019, right? And as you're kind of chronologically going through that story over whatever it is, three, four, five, six hours, there's all these offshoots that happen of like breakdowns and them getting to take the experiences they had to put that perspective into the worldviews they have, which you do a great job of. But to your point, it's like with John, he's one of those guys that I'm out of respect, like borderline poking fun at the whole time because I know how he's going to do it because

it's just like exciting to watch but he'll just he'll be getting on this little ran or whatever and he'll be like you know so that's that that's the problem with things like this you know what I'll give you an example I know and I'm like yeah all right here it comes 10 minutes later it's like yeah oh you know you're just mesmerized he's Paul Rosalie's the best 30 to 60 second storyteller I've ever seen John Kyriaku is the best long-form storyteller I've ever personally seen in here. I would agree. I don't. And that's funny. That's something I asked him, you'll get a kick out of this. On this last podcast, I asked him, I was like, so basically in every John Kiriaku video that you see on YouTube, the comments are like, oh my God, this guy's an amazing

storyteller, because he is. It's the John Kyriaku bot campaign. He pays for it. Oh, yeah. He ain't over now. I'm fucking. Yeah. Sputnik. We love it, John. We do. We do. We talk about it. year they're like more comments in english yeah yeah um but i asked them i was like how can you how can people like become better storytellers and be more articulate and he goes well let me start with the story so i figured you get a kick out of yeah yeah yeah i mean think about how he had to start his career though you know and for people who haven't heard dalton's john kuriaco episodes go check those out he's been on my show too like the guy's prolific he's been on Danny jones a show a bunch And now he's starting to go on a lot of different things.

But he started off like almost the very front end of his CIA career as like the lead profiler of at that point a younger Saddam Hussein. And so his job is to take all these wild facts about this crazy dictator who shoots shotguns in the air and, you know, executes people but runs this country with an iron fist that happens to have a lot of oil. His job is to take all that and be able to put it into something. that is both, that is all of informative, entertaining, concise, to the point, and paints a picture for the president of the fucking United States when he might be making a war decision. So, like, to me, if I had to point to it, he definitely has natural talents that he's had since he was a kid. There's no doubt about that. There's a communication expertise there. But if I were guessing, he probably really, really developed that craft at that early point.

at that early point in his career when he had to take a lot of information and put it down into something that accomplished those five things yeah dude it's crazy when you say it like that too it's it's it's kind of the first i've thought of it like that that you know the director of analysis at the cia those analysts that's a very specific type of brain that i just can't wrap my own around but the thing about john is he started an analysis and then he went to operations And then he became a case officer. So he's got both. He's got everything, man.

He even saw management back at home, too. You know what I mean? Like, he really, you want to talk about a guy who saw a lot of the major spectrums of CIA up close and personal. He's one of them. He's the real deal, bro. Yeah. But, you know, you talk about first being interested and listening to a lot of stuff. It's just funny that it goes this way that's in like self-help and things like that.

And you're like, yeah, so that got me into podcast. and then eventually you're like CIA intelligence like what's the was that always something you were interested in that world no man and like to be fair i am i'm starting to come back to that too like i and i you know we can i'll talk about this a little later but um like i want to i want to start doing more content excuse me that helps people um so like that was something like that was something that occurred to me a little recently and like the last episode i did was with a a guy named Clark Fredericks who he was sexually abused as a child he ended up killing the guy that abused him it's a long story but like um for that for example like we men like we internalized

things and there's a lot of men that are in that situation and if i could put something out that helps one person that's a wonderful win for me and that's one of the ones that i'm most proud of what is that story i didn't i i saw a clip from that podcast but i didn't see the podcast yeah it's super heavy um essentially what's that we got ton yeah no but um he so his name is clark fredericks he he grew up in jersey actually and he basically was um abused by his close family friend who was like a pillar in the community in this town of still water guy was a boy scout leader he was a police officer like an authority figure which is so fucked up because it's like you you're gonna run in the police he is the police those

that sort of thing so it went on for you know went on for a long time and clark he i think this is when he was like gosh before he was 10 years old like young and he ended up growing up um you know he became a drug addict a gambling addict spiraled as you would you know internalizing this sort of trauma and so he Clark lived in in the same town like all these years and one day he saw this guy Dennis Pegg who abused him in a quick check and Dennis had with him like another little boy and he the little boy called Dennis the name that like a nickname that Dennis used to make Clark call him and that just like sent Clark and so what happened was he again he was he was you know deep in drugs and alcohol and spiraling at this time he ended up driving to to Dennis's house and dude this is

the craziest part of that story he or one of them to me he hadn't seen the guy in however many years and he drives to his house and kicks his front door open and he's got a knife in his hand and Dennis Pegg is just sitting on his couch watching TV and if you're if somebody's in your fucking doorway at 9 p.m. with a knife in their hand looking enraged he Dennis turns to the door and he goes, hey, how are you? Like that is that abuser mentality is like I fucking own you. I'm way above you which is that is one of the craziest things anyway um and that's what Clark said he's like he's like dude like apologize like say listen like I'm sick I I I presumably ruined your life and your psyche and your masculinity and all these all these effects on like this is what I did to you I'm sorry like if there's any way like I can make it right like let's sit down let's talk like do that that that's what Clark said but he goes hey how are you and Clark Clark said that just like sent him and he just rushed into his house and stabbed him to death. Now what happened after that and how did this all come out? The real truth, obviously, what, what had happened? How long ago was this?

Oh, gosh. Dude, it wasn't that long ago. It was like probably, well, actually, he just got out. It was probably around 10 years ago because he only got five years. Probably five years too many. Yeah, and that was one thing that I tried not to interject my own opinion. And because it, this is the thing like i i'll just say it i'm not going to cry a tear over a dead pedophile i don't give a fuck you know um i think that's the worst thing you can do on planet earth like children especially man they're just um but at the same time if you if you kill your abuser and again a lot of a lot of victims have that thought crossed their mind if you kill them and you go to jail for it they own you until the day you die like they they're you know what i mean like if you if you go to jail for the rest of your life yeah like they they own your entire life and you can't let that happen and

that's part of the reason that i had him on because he talks about now like how to how to how to deal with this how to fix this trauma you know how long's he'd been out of prison just a couple years yeah i mean i i'm gonna have to watch that that's that's an incredible story yeah it's i i would like to that's that's an incredible story i mean the fact that something like that it's almost like the universe lining it up though for that outcome to happen because he hears a he sees him with another little kid he sees himself in that little kid and then he hears the little kid use the same nickname which is just like that's just that sends a shiver up my spine it's like you don't you i can only imagine you're you leave your body when that happens you you it's like the manchurian candidate gets flipped on i get it you know

where it it's also a protection mode because like i said he sees himself in that little kid he's like so that's happening and did that come out i guess like in court or in the process that it was like this other kid it admitted that the that he was being abused by the guy too did that ever come out the other kid oh no not this little kid but it did come out after the fact that like a lot of people had made accusations and that sort of thing because clark had he never told anyone prior to that night never told his parents his dad asked him he sat him down he's like hey i've been hearing rumors about this dennis peg guy like did he ever touch you and like dude that's the thing too is like he explains this really well in the podcast and he's like

these these guys they they they rely on secrecy and they it's like he he just drilled it into him from a young age man and like the way he the way he dennis said to clark when he was a kid he's like can you keep a secret you know because we can't be friends if you can't keep a secret but this was in the very beginning of the grooming stage and that's the other thing bro is like these people they have time they're gonna they're gonna take it step by step and they're like methodical and it's uh it's it's heavy and really it's it's tough subject matter it really is but like there's these people are out there and they're doing these things and like if you're a parent you need to be able to protect your children you need to be able to ask them the right

questions um because again you're you're working against what's been planted in their head by that abuser and that abuser knows all the psychological buttons to push you know what i mean so yeah um just it it was a tough one bro but like again i the comments that that i saw and uh i'm i'm proud of that one and like again if that's why i said in the very beginning of that interview with him I was like, if this helps one person, wonderful, and it seems like it did. So, yeah, I agree with you that that's like the worst thing, that and murder are the worst things you, you can do on earth. And in a lot of ways, when these people, these sick people do that to little kids, they

murder their souls and they are never, to say they don't live a normal life would be massive understatement and it's like do you even get to enjoy life or see what it's all about but this has been something that i've learned about unfortunately on this podcast with other people about how deep rooted some of this is unfortunately in not only human history but modern human history i know you probably come across it as well through some of your guests but not not even to single out places i'm going to bring this to the whole world but you look at countries in the Middle East, for example, it's open. They do it openly. They have terms for it. There's terms for it in Pakistan. There's terms for it in Afghanistan. We've all heard the phrase from multiple different people on this show who served in different parts of the military at different times in Afghanistan. They have all talked about witnessing it and how the common refrain out there in in the obviously not it's translated, but the refrain is, you know, women. are for kids and boys are for fun and that's that's what they say and i've had i mean i think it was

nick irving talked about having a literally pull people off of kids i believe it was nick check that it might have been dale coms i forget but i think prince has talked about it yeah yeah eric prince talked about it as well i can't remember if that was on camera off but they all talk about it and there's this thing that can happen where you get suspended in this idea that you get suspended in this idea that like oh that's that's a different culture that's that's what they do there as if there's not something weird and twisted in the percentage of the population of the human population and the fact of the matter is that there is and these people we now have more awareness of it thank god within our own country within america that like these these people walk among us and it's not

one or two you know but it's also the scariest thing because that's like the worst thing you can accuse someone of being you know but there are people who it's not always unfortunately just a regular stereotype of the creepy looking dude with the glasses who looks like he has no friends there are a lot of quote unquote normal looking people who go normally about life are married with the fucking wife and kids who do this kind of thing and i can tell you i'm not a parent yet but when i am that's that's one of my ultimate fears like who are you letting your kid around and you know with they play sports or you just mentioned that guy

was like a Boy Scout leader as well, which I would never let my fucking kids in the Boy Scouts, sorry. But like you know, they call them the Weeblos for a reason. But what? You never heard that? They're called the weeblos? You never heard that? I get the joke, but Jesus. Pause. I'm just saying but you know what I mean. I do know what you mean. It's on a serious note, it's it's

terrifying. It's a terrifying thing. Well, to your point, I mean that's one of the things he said. He's like if you know, if your kid's got a coach or a you know any prefaced up by saying it is a little bit of a cynical way to look at it but he's like if you're a kid's coach or you're their piano teacher or whoever it is is taking an extreme interest in your child scary right that coupled with the fact that like they're always around children they don't have peer friends and that's when when you know something's yeah so and and hopefully there's some signs sometimes that really do make it obvious again it's scary when there's ones that aren't it's got a cop too it's like what the fuck yeah but i don't know that might be something that's a good podcast idea having in like some sort of medical doctor psychiatrist who studies this I guess whatever you call it this trait that exists in some people and the different ways it forms because it's not unitary it's not like it's

all the same oh that's the DNA sequence otherwise they'd probably be ready to eliminate that right now there's there's experiences there's things unfortunately the saddest one is like when it happens to them and then they become that which you hear about all the time it's like it's a very uh disgusting complicated dark path to go down but i i think exploring that more to try to understand that could could also be helpful like you said if it helps one person or helps one parent to spot something that could be huge dude i and i agree and i think that a lot of when these guys get caught and go to court they claim like it was done to me and that's why i do this um but in my opinion like that you if if that's the case and you're an abuser

you know firsthand the effects that this has on a person's psyche and the way that it ruins someone ruins someone's life so for you then now to perpetuate that and do it to other children knowing what it is that you're doing it's even worse in my opinion i think there's a good argument to be made there i i don't know as it's a on on Unfortunately, it also gets into like people's, I guess, like, in this case, primary intimate experiences. And so there's a different, in this case, sick normalcy that they're exposed to. And I use that word there where it becomes, oh, that's even if their mind saying this isn't normal, they don't know how their body's reacting to that. I don't know, I can't speak to that, but I know it's a complicated.

complicated psychology it's just you know like one thing i know well there's two things i know number one the minute you have a kid your whole life changes or your perspective changes and you can't know that until you do it i know that the second thing that i at least have a good idea about from personal experience as far as like observing other parents and my own parents and stuff like that over the years is like I know with my kids I am going to want I don't want them to fear consequences for stuff that they're afraid of talking about I don't want them to feel like oh if I bring this up with my dad he might get mad at me and I might get in trouble I want that's not to say I'm going to be like buddy buddy with my kid like that's not what you want to do

you have to have that parent-child relationship and have that right dynamic but like I never want someone to fear being penalized for telling the truth or sharing thoughts no matter how dark they might be because if i can't be like that safe space for them to do that who the fuck is going to is going to be that and what precedent does that set for things in the future that could happen to them that then they're afraid to come to me with and i've just seen this over and over again where parents and i'm not even blaming the parents as like bad people but like they're so all over their kids or whatever that their kids get afraid to share things with them and that that's how things like this can happen yeah dude i think that's a

wonderful mindset to have and something that like is pretty cool that you picked up on because i think that's that's so true and especially when there's other when there's other subconscious roots and circumstances behind yes the things that your kids don't want to tell you you know because god man with that one like just as a man So this is the thing. Do you know, you know, the book, The Trauma Keeps the Score, or the Body Keeps the Score by, gosh, what's his name, Bessel van der Kolk? No.

So I did a little bit of, like, background on trauma before I had Clark on, just to, again, I want to, I want to understand and, you know, just be as empathetic as possible and that sort of thing. That's awesome. And the way he explained it was such a good example. And it was like, okay. Okay. So like if you and I are sitting in this podcast studio right now and I just right now like reach across the studio and start swinging at you, right? You're going to be like what the fuck like this Dalton guy is out of his mind. I don't know. You might tell whoever like the dude that the weirdest thing happened. This guy's fucking crazy. Whereas if you were a six year old and I leaned across a table and start beating the crap out of you, you would say to yourself, what did I do wrong? Yes. You would say, oh, this is me. Like I am undesirable in some way. Like there's there must. have been some reason for for dalton to snap and do that right they as if you're if you're an abuse

victim you can't internalize the fact that it's not your fault so everything becomes immediately centered on yourself and you start to build this resentment towards yourself and it's all these like secondary and tertiary effects like the one that got me was like the the effects on your masculinity right because you start to think about like okay why didn't i fight back number one like that that's that's one part number two is like did did i like it did i am i homosexual and that's a very common thing that comes out of it too on like a man on on on on boy type scenario so um yeah man i uh it was it was a fucking heavy one to tell you the truth um but like i just god man clark uh he fucking bared his soul in there bro and like i he how'd you find this guy his um somebody from

simon and schuster i think his publisher reached out to me and I think it was So he just wrote a book about the whole experience? Yeah, so he just came out with this book That's great And I was like, absolutely You know, I think it's a perfect fit

Because it's got, you know Just the right amount of like Story kind of stuff That I would have on my show And yeah, dude Like I said, I was kind of, you just had a moment earlier in the year where I was like, I need to I need to start helping people a little more

Yeah you know well that's you know storytelling's how is is a part of the niche in which you built your channel so that there's a way to offload that into combining with helping people in some way i think that's great and i think also like in my own experience i don't know if you've seen this yet don't let me speak for you but you know you find that you bring in people to talk who are from this part of the world or do this thing whatever job it might be and then in the course of the conversation where we're going through their expertise or whatever, there's things that happen naturally

where you realize that people who have developed a relationship with them listening to them for the last hour or whatever it's been are now locked in on their credibility as a person such that they can then offer some advice unexpectedly on certain things from their own experiences and it has a heavier effect because it's almost like they've established is who they are to people so you get that second order effect on a podcast which also includes

people at home being like wow that that really helped me and i love seeing those comments and stuff i get those all the time with different people i bring on saying oh so-and-so you know i was really enjoying them talking about this but it really hit me when they talked about this in my life that this similar thing has happened and you're like whoa like they were able to reach someone through that it's very cool yeah it's awesome um and yeah dude so it's funny we went down a lot little estuary there as you'd call it but um your original question was like how the hell did i go from self-help to intelligence and i think that was just a byproduct of like getting exposed to the podcast scene so um like for example the first time curiaku was on danny when he was uh rather portly

uh i don't know how many years ago that was that was pre stomach surgery yeah exactly i was like dude you look you look phenomenal he looks awesome he looks great um but uh yeah so stuff like that And then like stuff like I watched Jim Lawler on your show at your parents' house. Oh, yeah? Mad Dog Jim? Yeah. And then, and then of course, Sean, man. I think that like, again, I, it's not that, it's not that, in my opinion, like, Sean invented this military or intelligence interview.

He didn't invent the genre. He lived it. Yes. But what I'm getting at is he just, he started what he started. And he just did it way, way. better than everybody else that was already in that niche so i got exposed to his show and then i started you know hearing these stories from like former special operations guys former you know intelligence officers and like was just fucking hooked on i thought it was just i

still obviously i still think it's the coolest thing ever bro and it's why i think it's just this element of like taking a peek behind the curtain of these types of world that like we're not privy to because we don't have you know yeah i i think that's what it is just in like dude fuck man especially like the special operations guys first of all and you don't necessarily have to be special operations could have been you know conventional force like whatever but those stories that i started listening to i was like these are fucking incredible stories man they are the best of humanity they're the worst of humanity and like again man man the way the way sean set them up like in how good of an interviewer he is like he would always get them because that's a thing too man like i had um i had brent tucker on my show was a former delts force operator and people seem to enjoy that one and in my opinion what sets what sets a an interview like that apart is not like the chest beating like oh you know i got on a helicopter a three

am under nods and you know smoke this guy like yeah fuck yeah people want to hear those stories because they're awesome i love hear about terrorists getting smoked obviously but then there's the element of like um like the struggles that people can relate to right so like whether if it's a guy like that like if they had some some stuff manifest related to tbi or um you know their their issues transitioning out of the military and finding a new purpose and like those are the real struggles in the vulnerabilities that people can then relate to and that's what sets it apart and again for with sean for example that happened in every single fucking interview he did like every interview he put out i was like this is amazing and like that's that's in my opinion how he built his brand when i see

that thumbnail i was like oh it's going to be a fucking banger and i'm clicking on it yeah yeah sean the thing that is amazing and what he was able to do at the beginning is He had lived that from every spectrum of it. I mean, you're talking about a long time Navy SEAL, tip of the spear kind of guy ended up doing, you know, GRS at CIA, which, you know, that's intense surveillance and security around the world. And he was able to take all that understanding from his own little lens of it, right? Because you only go to the places you go and then bring in all these other people who went to different places or were in the same place at a different place. at a different time, doing different things, doing different jobs, and relate to them on that level. Even if he wasn't there at the same time they were and they weren't there at the same time

he was, there's just something there that really not many other people could get. And, you know, you look at like the DJ Shipley one that he did, which is like an all-timer. It's one of my top three. Yeah, there's just a, even, you know what, even Whacked Bin Laden guy, fucking Rob O'Neill, that guy's been on every podcast known to man. I mean, I think he's been on fucking 40,000 podcasts, but the Sean one, now, I haven't watched all 40,000. I've probably watched five of them, maybe, right? Kind of the same thing on a lot of them, and I'm not blaming the podcast there.

You know, he's kind of telling the story. But the Sean one was by far the best one just because you were getting an extra layer from a guy who got it and understood. And I just think that's, like, you want to talk about building a brand and doing it. in a genuine way that that that because that that's something that like you know now sean's so big people love attacking big people but like you can never take that away from him he built what he built by just taking his own life experiences and saying i want to talk with cool people who might understand this and and have their own understanding of it from their angle and and to your point i agree that's how when i first found his show maybe like three and a half years ago four years ago something

like that. It was the same thought every time. It was like, all right, production is great. Number one, love that. But secondly, you know you're like, I'm not in the mood to listen to that when I'm in the mood to listen to Theo Vaughn. These are two very different things, right? Like, I'm in totally different moods with those. So if I'm over here in this mood, I'm clicking that with Sean. And, and, you know, it's cool that you drew a lot of inspiration from that too. Oh, dude, big time. And I think, again, like I'm a huge fan. I've always given him his flowers, like when, you know, I guess, like I said, I don't really talk a ton on my podcast, but when I talk to people or even now, like, gosh, man, yeah, it was, it was obviously the big three were, were him, Danny and you that inspired me to get my stuff going. And I learned different things from the three of you guys. But what I will say about Sean is in, in my opinion, I think that he just like, I think that there's, dude, this thing is hard to do at a high level in across the board. Right. There's a lot. There's a lot. lot of different buckets if you have a podcast there's you know like you said there's audio video

quality there's marketing there's shorts there's there's clips there's your studio set up there's production quality there's cutting a trailer there's everything um and i think that he out of anyone in the space fills those buckets closest to the top across the board um like if rogan you know rogan is the godfather bro we wouldn't be sitting here today if it wasn't for him but in my opinion You know, I think Sean is the goat. So, yeah, I think that it did, like, obviously, have taken a ton of inspiration from him. And, yeah, I still do, obviously. What was cool with him is he's not a, he's not a talker.

He's, I think that makes him greatest job. He gets other people going. And Sean is a very, very smart guy. There's a slight delay with him talking because he had, I don't know, like, fucking 10 TBIs or something. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the guy saw so much combat or whatever. So like I picked up on that, especially when I was with him, I was like, okay, like, you know, don't go all New Jersey on him the whole time. You know what I mean? Like that's a little much. But it takes a little while to get him going. But man, once he gets going and you really get there on him, first of all, breaking down analytically all his experiences from like a strategy perspective, from a skills perspective, from a military perspective, all this stuff. that's like listening to like a legendary general talk and then to your point when he starts

getting to the how it all made him feel and how it all made him feel later when perspectives changed and he could think back on it i don't know that was really special for me to hear because it's like damn you know this guy is able to always have all these other people on who talk about this but now you hear it from the horse's mouth and you realize like hey you you put him up against any of the incredible stories he's had on, he's right there with him himself, which is pretty cool. Yeah, dude, I mean, look at what he's done with his show and his marketing. You can't be an idiot to do that. Like, as, as an entrepreneur, all you do is make decisions all day, especially at a scale like his, I would imagine. That's probably all he does is make decisions. And, like,

I think he's pretty fucking spot on with, with his accuracy. Like, he makes a lot of good decisions anyway that was a great podcast when you thank you when you had them on I really yeah I do want to get I want to give two points of credit there number one 100% on Sean and another piece of credit on Sean is Sean is the guy who's like this looks like the broad area we need to do something and then he empowers people to do it and so the second point of credit I think and you know Sean's given this as well over the years is a guy he's worked with for a long time Kimball Williams is a real he's he's a genius he's he's a I'm

talk with Campbell now for the last three years like that dude is looking at fucking everything and saying like okay this works now how do we do something that's ours that can accomplish that and Sean and there's a lot of guys on Sean's team I don't know now because he's got a bigger team but Sean has always empowered people to say like okay here's the checkboxes I want to make sure we do you go do it and I think that that's that's also like you know that's a really good leadership trait that's probably something he developed watching the good versions of that and the bad versions of that in the military and trying to take the good ones i bring it back to his business but you know the guy's done whatever it is like 250 episodes

or something which in the context of like joe rogan is like yeah not many compared to that but was able to have his show be one of the biggest in the world i'd say by you know like episode 60 which is like kind of unheard of and it goes to show like all that back end stuff you talk about and then being able to do it correctly it adds up yeah i think that's a tough one too man just like i think that's a superpower is that delegation that you talk about and like obviously you have to find the right people and people that you trust but like this is you know this is your baby you know so you're very hesitant to hand the keys over to somebody and And that's, but you can, you can't do it all yourself forever.

That's been the hardest thing for me. I don't know about you. But like, I still fucking do it all myself. So. Yeah, I waited too long to start handing things off. But when you start moving faster too, you end up not having a choice on that. And like, have you burned out at all? Yes, but not.

I go through kind of peaks and troughs, but, like, I, I haven't burned out because of the podcast. I've burned out because I haven't managed my time properly to do the right things for myself. What does that mean? Meaning, like, I had, you know, Montana or Wyoming on my mind over the past two years and never fucking pulled the trigger on it until a couple months ago. So now I make a point to do that for three days every year. month every two months and like that that gives me more juice moving forward or like i don't know if uh i mean i do i work seven days a week i don't really take a day off i'm sure you're the exact same but like we don't feel that we're entitled to these sorts of things that's right and like

sometimes our brains and our bodies have their own idea of what they need to move forward and like you feel like you're in the driver's seat and with the joystick in your hand but like you don't sometimes you need to just like feed the machine what it needs and and the machine really is is is my fucking brain bro like you know that's uh it's complicated and like i just uh i've been doing things more for myself i'll say yeah to to and i think that that again that three days in montana that's three days that i'm not working but that'll keep that'll get me you know back to 120% when i get back so it's all it pays itself off immediately yeah it's a strange balance there for sure like and i think everyone's got to find that themselves it's something i've

had to focus on more over the past year i still you know i don't do many of those it's i i should probably do some more but it's also like that's the other thing about adding on people to you feel an added sense of responsibility as well because now you're you're paying other people's income and you want to make sure you can keep doing that because they're they're relying on you and and i like that pressure i think it's a really cool thing but you know i'm still trying to navigate how how i let that impact my work life balance and i can't say that i figure that out perfectly yet at all yeah it's uh gosh dude i was just i was just at my parents house last night and i was talking to my mom about this and um i think you can probably relate to this you when you

when you are obsessed with something and like dude this is all i think about from the moment that i wake up to the moment that i go to sleep it's it's all i you know i'm fucking obsessed with it um but when you when you care that deeply about something you take from other buckets and you neglect other buckets being social life um romantic relationships time with your family and like i'm not complaining this is the life that i've chosen and i fucking love it i'm not i'm not I don't plan on changing it. But my only point is, like, I'm, I'm still working out what the balance is. I'm still working out how often I'm going to go see my family because they may not be around forever.

But, like, there's no handbook on it, bro. And, like, that's, you know, it's, it's just, yeah. Yeah, the balance between being present and also prioritizing the things that are right in front of you is a tough one for sure. And I think about that a lot. I try not to live my life in fear of like, well, what if they're not here or whatever? But I do try to think about, like, who am I seeing and how much are my two feet on the ground when I'm doing that? You know, even like when my grandpa was getting sick and this was months ago, he ended up dying recently. But long before that, we thought he was going to die.

Like, there was a point for two weeks where I'm like, you know what? I do have a fuck done to do. And if it doesn't happen, the bills don't get paid this month. So I can't stop work, just like all my cousins couldn't either, by the way. But what I can do is get my work out in the morning, drive down there, work right next to him, take some time off, spend a little time with him, come back a night and see if I can do it the next day too. And like thinking back on that now, it's a special thing because I did that for like 12 to 4. There was like a 15 day period where I did it like 11 or 12 times. And you know now it's like I'm a piece with with the fact that he did finally go and whatever and this is someone I spent a remarkable amount of time within my life and yet even during my busiest years where I was really going after and putting my life on pause I had time to spend with him that's a big thing with me I don't with I feel like I'm at a loss already if I say I'm making time to do things if I'm making time it you know it's like there's.

effort that has to be there and i i get that it's a semantics thing but like you have to also have time and that is why by the way you doing what you're doing now at this point and you know i'm in the same boat as you are in in a lot of ways it's like this is when we're we don't have wives when i've kids at this point this is the last time we can have this amount of focus on something like this because i will never be an absentee dad or an absentee husband or something like that because I'm this asshole that's working seven days a week until I die. That's not happening. But what I can do is if I'm entering an extremely competitive space, a very hard business, something that very few people make, and I have to dedicate an inordinate amount of time.

I'm going to take the time that I have when I have it to maximize it so that I can pay for the time later where I don't have to be that guy. A thousand percent. And you know what's funny that's something that I still think about from time to time is I don't remember whose podcast it was, but it was Bustamante on somebody's podcast. tough to nail it down he's done quite a few but he he mentioned it was something off like offhanded about you and it was like um somebody paid you a compliment about the podcast and bustamante said something along though he's like he's like yeah well you know he's he's young single and obsessed and i was like i don't know why that comes back to me from time to time but to your point

about this is the fucking time you know like it doesn't get any easier um but i wanted to ask you what did um was there anything that stands out that like you learned from your grandfather's passing just recently who learned about life maybe that's a great question i'm still processing because we're talking and we just buried him a week ago um the guy was my hero and and someone who i who i considered a best friend who lived for 90 years it's a great life it's not like you know this is a tragic at age 45 death or something like that so i'm very grateful for that i had him to this point of my life for many many years and he was with it for the first 89 years which is great that's wonderful you know and i could still have conversations with him up until about a month ago

i'd say that's all a w when you look at it yeah but there's still a finality of someone being gone so So there's a lot of lessons. One, there's a physical lesson. And this is something I've learned over the last few years. I'm very into fitness. I got sick there for a few years, so I couldn't do it. I lost my whole body, lost all my health. And now the last two years I've invested like crazy, which was a promise I made myself in getting

better and being able to get back in the gym and do what I do. But I have turned that up times five because I watched my grandparents suddenly get very old over the past few years. there is nothing that takes away human dignity more than extreme aging and just seeing those things and someone who can't move around can't take a shit on their own it's i never ever want to be like that that's number one so that's a that's a lighter one but you know the other thing i don't really know if this answers your question but it was just a really strange finality is when my when his wife died my grandmother died couple years ago that happened very quickly and it was it was devastating and you know i have a i've huge families on both sides this side has 18 cousins 18 you know niece cousins niece cousins niece and nephew cousins like i have 12 aunts and uncles like it's a big family and it was very sad but a couple days after the funeral i felt really at peace with it and i don't want to be

counts and be like oh i was over it but i felt so at peace with it and it was because she had lived an amazing life and then right at the end like got dementia and she died before that was going to get bad right so she died with her dignity in a lot of ways and so i was at peace with that but when we were putting my grandfather's casket into the ground i had this overwhelming just incredible incredible sadness fall over me because we're putting them in the ground right next to where she is i've been to this gravesite many times since then but i realized oh shit i didn't get over her death in a couple days or something like that it was more that there was a piece of her that was still here because he was here and now he's not and just like that an entire generation's gone

and you can never get it back you can't have that conversation with them you can't get their advice and like my mom was really breaking my heart when she was like you know it's like i lost my north star and i was like god damn you know so i think there is something to be said about that i don't have any regrets about time spent i spent a lot of time with them go over all those years i was extremely close with them so that whole part i'm at peace with but the idea that i can't pick up the phone and shoot the shit with him or you know get that reassurance or make them proud you know when he's not here that that part sucks and i know everyone out there listening we're all human beings we've all dealt with this stuff i'm lucky i'm talking about a grandparent dealing with it i know there's a lot

of people listening who are young and they had a parent die young or even worse they had a kid die or something like that so it's like in the grand scheme of things been a really really lucky guy but you know every every loss hurts were you there when you passed i was there i mean the guy wouldn't die we said goodbye we we said goodbye like 50 fucking times over the last year yeah so i was there that he passed on a wednesday the dude so i don't mean to laugh no no let's me you know people don't understand this it's a little bit yeah it's a little bit like this part is just like typical you know grandpa like he finally had a stroke on like a friday morning and now couldn't talk couldn't move and it was like

Yeah, yeah. Like, this is no, it was already no way to live because he couldn't move around himself and all that, but now it's like he literally is bedridden. So he wasn't asking for food and water, so it's like, it's supposed to happen pretty fast. Motherfucker lived six days without food and water. So I was there that whole weekend, Saturday and Sunday sitting with him, talk with him, and the last time I saw him on Sunday, I was like disappointed for him that when I saw him on Saturday and came back Sunday, he was still there because I'm like, I just, he's in pain.

You're like, this is horrible for him, but I'm sitting with him there Sunday and I said goodbye and I knew I had to come up to do work because my aunt and uncle, they're a nurse and doctor. They're like, this could go on for weeks. I don't know. But I had a feeling that was going to be the last time I saw him and I was so at peace with it at that point. So I was not there when he died like that Wednesday. But I had said everything I needed to say many times over. So I'm lucky. I had that. There's a lot of people who don't get that. And, you know, I do think there's something in the end of life. Like, he had that, he had that last gas kind of thing that happens, you know, the day before you die where suddenly you get, like, this wind of energy. And I know, like, my mom was there for that. I know that was really special for him and some of his kids who were there. And, you know, the end of life is a very strange thing, man. Yeah. You know, how do you, like, you have a lot of guys on who lost dudes on the battlefield in their prime, you know, get cut down.

out of nowhere you know one morning you're having breakfast shooting the shit together that afternoon you're taking someone off the field in in a body bag how how do you like comprehend that when guys like you and me haven't lived that at all i think the main thing man is like first all we're not going to comprehend that we'll never be in that situation because they were like they they did it so you know you and i didn't have to um and that's why that's why we love them but uh In a situation like that, bro, like, so Brent Tucker, who I had on, he told a story about his friend Chris Robinson, who was one of his, this is when Brent was a green beret before he went to the unit. His best friend, Chris Robinson, ended up, I forget the actual circumstances of how he got killed, but he picked up Chris's body and carried it to the helicopter. And like, that's your fucking best friend, man.

um and so like i'll never understand that but what i can do is just sit across from him like as a human and just sit with him as a human being like that that's all i can do um but again like this goes back to what we were talking about about these stories being the best and the worst of humanity like where the fuck else are you going to hear a story like that um gosh Yeah, so I don't know. But there is there is something, and the reason I ask that is because there's something that I think that you can learn or conceptualize about life by watching somebody take their last breath. And like for me, it was the first time it was my grandmother. We watched, I was in the hospital when she passed. And again, bro, like, first of all, my grandfather, I wasn't. So the way I think of it is like you weren't meant to be there when he passed for whatever reason. And that's fine. Like, that kind of just is what it is. Um, but yeah, man, just, just watching somebody like, what really set that one home for me is like this person is at the end of their cycle. You know what I mean? And I don't know how to explain it or articulate it properly, but it really just hammered home to me the fact that like we're all just kind of staggered in this life. Like that'll be me one day. And like she was once a baby. You know what I mean? It's I don't know. I don't know. Maybe it, maybe it sounds weird what I'm saying it that way. But just watching someone labor for breath and then just. take their very last one and then just looking at myself like a healthy young man it puts it

in perspective um but yeah back to your your original point about that man it's uh it's tough to conceptualize and you know we think about it a lot now um being that people are more and more open about um or talking about the fact talking about why we were there in the first place so i don't know i i don't know how to uh to think about it other than just like let people come in and tell their stories and just listen keeps those people alive too exactly among you know what i mean because it's a good point one of the things that really bothers me about these wars is the guys who are sent there aren't the ones making those decisions yeah and you see that happen that they have to live through and then the ones who come home they survive but

that number on a page which is what we make it on the news back here you know oh such and such number of soldiers died right it's a number on a page that number on a page includes people that they went to war with that literally literally like like figuratively literally the whole thing and i think it's really special when a show like yours can shine a light on that and And, you know, that guy I'm going to make up a name right now, but, you know, Lieutenant Dan Campbell, who died in this battle that no one even knew about. That was actually fucking crazy. And here were the consequences of what happened there. You can understand what he was about, who he left behind, the guy who's talking in front of you, who's doing his best to keep it together and also carried forward that dude's legacy and not let people forget.

Because that's a great image you give about when you watch someone leave this earth, especially when they're older. too and it's like wow they've lived a really long time they leave and then you know five minutes goes by 10 minutes go by people leave the room you start working on the obituary yeah you go back you answer some emails that you miss from work while you were waiting for that to happen you bury them five days later you go you throw a few flowers on the casket the grave diggers there wearing like a lead zepplin t-shirt says thanks you fucking go and eat some burgers somewhere while they're getting buried and life goes on and I really disappoint my myself sometimes like where I'm like there's shit that I'll get afraid of or fear the

outcome of or whatever and and all these things and the repercussions and obviously I don't do it in here because I just I don't have a choice I got to do my business here but and you know I failed to remember the fact that one day I'm just gonna be dead whenever that is and five minutes later life is gonna go on hopefully I left the world a better place than than it was when I got here but I'm just one of eight billion and we all meet the same end you know it's a heavy thing but it's at the end of the day it's very simple ending I know yeah I uh dude the life goes on thing like that the finality of death I think that's the thing that bugs me out the most at this stage of my life is uh gosh man like I'll you know you know Alex

Hormosey, I'm sure. Sure. He's got a great lens about this about how you can be, fuck, I don't know, like some president of some country, somebody really important that in theory moves mountains in history. And then a couple years later, nobody gives it shit about you anymore. So if nobody cares about that person, then the average person, I don't know, man. And it's not that like everybody needs to, you know, move mountains with their time on earth and be immortalized and remembered. I it's really cool what you and I do because hopefully if YouTube is around forever that shit'll be on the internet forever so I guess in some way that is you and I sticking around which is cool to me strange right there's like a record that we were here yeah

hopefully hopefully if you know open AI doesn't just consume the world and burn it to the ground but uh yeah man that that one that one freaks me out it's one that i'm still wrapping my head around the life goes on thing what do you think happens when we die it's as far as i can tell just go back to sleep you know but there's things that like i don't know there's weird unexplainable things that happen and you know after people are gone and you'd get we your messages from them and I know like you you know I'm I do believe in some of the woo-woo type stuff not exactly that but I think the I see is what it wants but uh I don't know man what you think I don't know I don't know that is how I try to live my

life I do think that it all came from somewhere for sure I think something created this how many layers away that is I have no idea or any of the religions right or are they all completely wrong I don't know and I don't want to say I don't care that'd be a little callous to say but like I try to control what I can control which is I'm here for however long I'm here

which I don't control what that is but while I am here I want to do good wherever I can help people out wherever I can and know that one day in some way to something I'm going to have to answer for that so I better hope I did that to the best

level that I can but as far as what happens when those eyes shut Yeah, I mean, maybe it's, maybe it's exactly what you say. You just go, go back to sleep. I don't know. It's, it's a, it's a weird, it's a very weird thing to think about. I remember when my uncle died when I was like 16, I was talking with one of my older cousins about it. It was like twice my age.

And, and I just, and they were a really, really smart, really smart person. And they're like, yeah, death never gets clearer. they were literally twice my age at the time so i'm really looking up to this person and that always stuck with me because i'm like they don't have anything more figured out than i do and they've and they had lived a crazy life to that point so i'm like yeah i don't know if that's one of those things that with age comes wisdom i i think it's just it's too unexplainable and i think some of the stories about people who passed over and came back are really cool you know maybe some of that really is true i'm up into that but who the fuck knows man you know yeah well i think the only thing you can do

is live a life so that uh when that time comes or you feel like it's approaching if you're lucky enough to grow old then you're as content with it as you could be without seeing what's behind the curtain hell yeah man now you keep bringing up brent tucker by the way so he he's all over the internet because he's got that anti-hero podcast and all that i don't did he have that when you had him on did he already have that yes but so it was started by his co-host and brent became a permanent host on it at some point and i believe yes it yes he did have it when i had him on okay how did you first connect with him dude i fucking love that guy i really do um how i first connected with him is he was my second episode so after john and again like we'll we'll talk about john and like the

character of some of these people to show up and take a flight and leave their families to go on a platform that I probably had like 7,000 subs when Brent came on but I connected with him just by just by reaching out to him and and asking him to come on the show because I'd seen him on on some other stuff maybe team house what the heck else was he on that I saw him on and I was like, this guy is, yeah, I need to have him on. So, yeah, that's how we met, but great dude. And you did the whole, I like that metal sometimes where it's like, you know, you're trying to do three-hour episodes or something like that,

but the guy keeps going, you're not going to stop them. So that was a couple when you put that out, which was really good. Because it also, it gives people a chance to see different parts that are story to, if they're more interested in that or another. but you know that's another one i mean that's your second podcast you start with john kiriaku then you go to a guy who was tip of the fucking spear yeah you know either get mowed down or mow down mo down yeah yeah obviously we don't say he fell on but like that's pretty heavy to did you jump and right the fuck in there once again yeah what i will say about that is that was uh i think you'd be

okay with me saying this and like i hope people don't take this the wrong way but that was a different type of nerves when i sat across from him because like you know i don't know bro that's just like he's done a lot and uh and just for people out there who aren't familiar with his story can you yeah so he was a he was a former delta force operator and for i'm sure people are familiar that watch your show but if they aren't the the delta force is the army's tier one special missions unit so it is like you say the the very tip of the spear those Those are the guys that are, you know, it's part of Joint Special Operations Command with Steel Team 6. Those are the guys that are doing the fucking Bidlod raid.

So they're not going after Ahmed and flip-flops with an ancient Russian pistol. Why's it got to be Ackman? Yeah, dude, because John says Ahmed and Schmachmed a lot. I think it's so funny. All right. They're going after the most hardcore guys with fortified positions, up in valleys, really hard targets, like really, really terrible people. Like, purse snatchers don't get on their radar. So that's who Brent is.

He was a Green Beret, which is Army Special Forces for, I forget how many years. And then he went to the unit for, I think, 10 years. And he retired in 2020, 2018, 2020, something like that. But yeah, that's who he is. And fucking great dude, bro. Like, he is, like, exactly. I think that's one of the biggest compliments you can pay somebody in this space is, like, he's exactly who he is off camera, on camera. And, like, if you watch anti-hero, they do this.

which I think is a cool format. They do this Thursday night live thing where they just drink drinks beers and shoot the shit and like he's that guy off camera. Just super chill, really easygoing, mellow. But yeah, that's a brand. Didn't you just go shooting with him too? Oh, God, dude.

That was, uh, oh, that was so much fun. Where was that? Okay, so Brent is like, we've kept in touch after the podcast because like I genuinely like him as a friend. And like, I'm sure. How do I say this? You've had a lot of people in here, and if you were in their city or if they were here, you wouldn't maybe necessarily reach out to all of them to have dinner. Not all of them. And not to say that they're not fun to hang out with.

And to be fair, I haven't gotten to hang out with all my guests. Like I have like a John or a Bren or whatever. Anyway, so Brent was here and he was training the, effectively the NYPD SWAT team. And so they're called ESU, which is emergency services unit. like it's a specific team of that unit, the A team is what they're called, apprehension team. And they basically, you know, if there was tiers in the NYPD, they do like the most high risk warrants, right?

Like the really, really hardcore drug dealers, like serve them warrants. They do hostage rescue as part of their charter, I believe. So Brent was here teaching them CQB, which is close quarters battle. And what Brent does is he's got a company called First Responder's Coffee Company. company and they donate a portion of not even proceeds bro of the money that they make so it might not even be profit they donate to first responder causes and one of the things that he does is he gives this training to law enforcement for free they didn't even pay for his flights or hotels or air reviews and like that's what I'm saying man like these are the kind of people like these are excellent people anyway so he was here doing that in New York and and so we we we got dinner and um when i met him he he brought two of the guys from the team with him so it was the four of us who went to uh quality meets you've ever been there uptown by central park no he's definitely yeah i never been i'm just fucking it was good um anyway so it was the four of us

we had dinner uh had a great time had some cigars after dinner and at one point one of the guys was like uh what the fuck did he say he's like he was talking to the other guy and uh i don't i don't I don't know if they, I don't know if I should say their names. Like, they, I think they're pretty, but great guys. I would love to. Yeah, stay the name off. That's fine. Yeah.

But, yeah, so at one point, one of them was like, to the other one, he's like, oh, did you text so-and-so? Like, we need a role player for tomorrow. And, like, jokingly, I just look at them. I was like, oh, you need somebody to come get shot with some sim rounds or something. And they're like, and they look at each other. Like, actually, yeah, if you want. And I was like, fuck, yeah. I would love that.

Oh, so you wanted to get shot with sim rounds. Well, so what a role player is, is like. It's that like a fetish? Yeah. No. It does hurt. I'm not into pain. There's a couple zip ties there if you are.

Yeah, no, I'm all set. I'll leave that to you and fucking, what's his name? Tommy G's channel, right? Yeah, we got Andy back the other day. Yeah, I saw. So, yeah, so basically what it was was they have a, they have a whole facility. They have like a shoot house, which for people that haven't seen one, it was the first time I was in one. it's like it's this kind of modular setup where you can configure doors in a certain way like they're like kind of um like wood panels that you can slide around essentially so that you can change the layout of a room every time a team does a run through of it and they got you know they make it look like an apartment they'll have like a fucking refrigerator or a couch different furniture types and so what the you know what the point of it is is for teams to do suki be in right they'll they'll make entry however it is and they set up

scenarios for these teams to then deal with. So there might be a hostage taker. There might be an active shooter. And that was what I did. I was an active shooter role player. And, and dude, so the first thing, like, there is, again, I don't, I don't know, like people, people for some reason love this, like who's better Delta Force is Steel Team 6. They fucking love that. Oh, they love those arguments. So funny. My only point is, I don't know who's better, but let's say it's Delta Force for the sake of argument. Delta Force is the very best in the world. at CQB. So just being a part of a classroom training, having Brent teach these guys something was like, I don't know, bro. It's like, it's like having an NBA player explained to you like they had

a shoot a basketball. Like it's just cool, even if you're into it or if you're not. Anyway, so I go there and my job, like I said, was to be an active shooter role player. So I basically, they, they they give you like it was like a full face mask um like a a long coat and they gave me um it was a Glock 19 and i like it was actually like a like a real Glock but it was converted for for simunitions so it's basically it's got like a blue slide on it if you ever see those like trainings or like a blue bolt and they are can we pull that up joe trying to see that how would you type in for that uh just type in like sim munition Glock or simunition rifle um i'm sure you've it and it's basically like what it would a sim round is is it's like a high speed paint round so that you can do force on force training safely yeah there you go okay so um and essentially like the actual round like if you've been you've gun shooting you've held like a nine millimeter round or something it's a real round and it's got like a primer where like because the gun is the exact same so when you pull the trigger the firing pin hits the primer and then i guess there's gunpowder between that and the paint round so it's like a real round and it's it feels like very real um so they gave me

one of those and brent like set up this scenario where like i was a barricaded shooter in a room and like i won't go into the actual details because i don't want to like you know any of their like tactics and what they do but um their job was to basically like so he was like he was like okay how i explain this it was like i was barricaded and there was an open door and he's like as soon as you start either seeing them come down the hallway or hear them get close enough just start cracking some rounds off through the door and then it was on and it was there and it was there their job to just unfuck the situation and it's on you got a bunch of delta force psychos coming at you well no not not the unit this was the the nypd guys whatever but trained by the delta

force guys close enough yeah yeah and what i'll add is that like there's no sense in training for compliance so my job was to be non-compliant oh that's right so you and you got them yelling there's no fuck yourself get out of door no no they're very professional they're very and but i said that i said that brent's like you can ad lib it say whatever you want um you throw an accent on dude oh my god so like so they'll start talking to you and obviously they want to diffuse first they don't want to kill an active shooter if they don't have to yeah so the first that's what they tell you well no no no these guys are super professional they're not you know i'm fucking with you don't i know but they're they're such awesome dudes i can't i can't like to

have that one that's my job to be a joke stuff yeah fair enough but uh so yeah dude they're you know they're the first team they started talking to me they're like hey man like you know what's your name and i was like go fuck yourself and that was that was what i said and then uh and then i you know i ended up playing it out and obviously their job was to to to just shoot me so uh yeah and we got to do that a couple different runs couple different scenarios but what's what's crazy is actually so this is a two-day thing on the first day we're in okay so that second day was they had like an abandoned in school, okay? So, which is interesting. I probably have some sort of asbestos-related fucking life shortening after that one. But so the first day was in their actual like shoot house,

those that modular room set up. And like we so they start running through and Brent was like, you know, instructing and kind of watching them run through and that sort of thing. As like we were just getting started, somebody comes in and they're like, yo, everybody out. So like the entire team leaves. And do you remember when, um, gosh, I don't know if it was like a month ago, the, the shooter at, oh, yeah, at Blackstone. Yes. They all, they all dipped and responded to that. No, shit, that was going on right then.

Yes. So, and that's part of the deal, man. That's what they do. Those guys, what I'll say is like from what I got from them, they are, they cover the whole city, bro. Every borough. And they're spread very thin. And so that was, that was that. So they dipped on the first day, and then we ended up coming back to second day or day.

real world you get to see that happen think about how good those guys got to be like we talk about like police forces or whatever there's dudes like there's certain police forces you're new york city like yeah we see the guys directing traffic out there there's another segment of them yeah that better be good at what they do because that i mean look at all that can go wrong in that little place right there i mean nothing little about it it's crazy and what i'll say about these guys man like i always had a respect for what the people that come on my show do as I'm sure you do as well. Oh, yeah.

But being able to see it firsthand, not firsthand, you know, but like, bro, I'm telling you, they make it feel real. They want training to feel real. They're not fucking around. Like it's, it's for all intents and purposes, real. And so what those guys do is they don't know what's on the other side of that door. And they got to do like the fucking Yuvaldei one like that, oh God, man. That I like, I, dude, I cry every time I see a body cam video.

of something like that it absolutely breaks my heart but those guys and you know what pisses me off too like when people when being a police officer is a fucking thankless job and people shit on them and they want to take their money away and they don't want them to train and they want them to pay for their own ammo those guys fucking run into that room when they don't know what's on the other side of the wall to to save people's lives that they don't know and like dude i'm telling you when i'm like when when i was in there like it just it just felt real and i also felt what it was like for them i'm like i set this position up like i you know i have the advantage they're in this situation not added like i and i got so i i shot a couple of them you know like in the leg or

something when i you know but like that that's real bro that's it for all intents and purposes that's a real fucking nine millimeter round in their leg in the real world dude even below what you did there i mean that's like a full blown simulation but even i mean i know you go to gun ranges a lot like even when you go to a range and you're handed a weapon of death which is what it is and you have to move with it a little bit to shoot a fucking cardboard yeah or a metal plate or something and you think of all the steps every little especially if you're working with you know like an ar 15 or something like that every little thing you have to do just to do one shot and then be able to move to the next one i understand that these guys they train over and over and over again so

a lot of that becomes like breathing but there's still so much that goes into that and then a gravity of like if this bullet leaves this arsenal it leaves this holster like some shit could happen i don't know what's on the other side of that you know who dies whether they deserve to or not you know you're going you're responding to a situation your adrenaline is jacked like it's impossible to simulate what you can do now when we've seen videos of like a cop someone fucking ran a hundred feet away and then they just like shoot him in the back okay all right yeah that i i'm with you that makes that that's you can't do that but like when someone's coming at you with a weapon or something like that and you have point two

five seconds to respond to that like what the fuck do you think is going to happen people you think they're going to stand there and be like oh you look you look safe no it's not how it works i agree that part of it's thankless for sure dude like have you ever heard an air 15 indoors with no air protection on no it's really scary and especially if you're not expecting it so like again that's going back to the fucking school shooting problem that you know we seem to have in this country like it is terrifying bro and it's very scary like you said you can train for it but until you're in that situation that you've never seen and it's uh god i have all the respect in the world for those guys and what they do and i'm i'm so happy that there's people

like brent and people like that the apprehension team that are willing to do that because we fucking need them and nobody's ever going to tell me otherwise yeah we also have to ask some questions about things like that though that are beyond the actual response and what goes into that which absolutely that's a that's a critical part but you know why these things happen and people in the past it's been quieter i i'll give credit where it's due it's been quieter on this front of the blame and the past it's just been well it's guns okay yeah i i don't i don't think a 17 year old should be getting their hands on an AR-50. I could agree with that.

But like when you're going to start to try to legislate, quote-unquote, people's rights to bear arms, that runs into a lot of slippery slopes and issues. The thing that annoys me and has annoyed me for a long time about this conversation and other ones like it is when we're not looking at things that are not outliers, which are you look at a lot of these little demons who have done this shit. they're on SSRIs, they didn't have any friends, there were signs and, you know, you've got to ask yourself some questions, like, what, what are we doing chemically to some kids in this country and how is that affecting the wiring of someone whose body is still developing? Because a lot of the times these shooters just did 15, 16, 17, 18 years old. And I still, after all these years, Parkland was 2018.

Of all day, I want to say it was 2021, maybe I'm wrong, somewhere in that area. fucking Columbine was 25, 30 years ago. It's like, that's still not a loud conversation. And you would think, especially in the post-COVID era, where people are thinking about some of this stuff more about like, well, how much are we putting out there that's just accepted to be putting our bodies? Are you ever surprised that we don't have that a little openly now? Dude, I think that's an exceptionally valid point.

And, like, I don't believe that, you know, a firearm is a tool. it's not going to kill people on its own unless it's a Sig P320 I don't know if you've been coming up with that drama that was a little joke some people might enjoy but I have not kept up with that drama apparently you know

unfortunately I have two of them and whatever there is a SIG model called you could probably look this up Joe but it's the P320 it's like their fucking Glock 19 it's their flagship and there is a lot coming out now about that weapon

discharging or uncommanded discharge. So there's videos of it going off in the holster for police officers and, like, putting one in their leg. And, like, essentially, there, a lot of the times people, they, their defense in the beginning was that, oh, you know, your keys got stuck in the trigger well, like, in your holster. And, like, now there's a bunch coming out about, like, they're not able to explain it. So it's a big thing. It's a fucking open AI Glock. Dude, it's a big thing in the firearms community.

Wow. Yeah. So that's scary. It's very scary. Yeah, Sig M18 pistol returned to service by Air Force Global Strike Command. Can we go down, Joe, on the article? A lot of police departments are ditching it. Air Force Global Strike Command has returned the M18 modular handgun system pistols back into service. The command pause use of the sidearm to inspect them, starting on July 21st, following the death of an airman at Effie Warren Air Force Base in Wyoming, which TWC was first to report. A week later, some units in Air Combat Command Institute a similar pause. Though the status of that is unclear, we've reached out to ACC for comment. The M18 and the larger M17 are used by all U.S. military services widely replacing the Beretta M9, the weapons as well as their civilian P320 counterparts, have been fraught with controversy with a drop safe issue early on in its adoption, which is now fixed, and allegations and lawsuits over the gun going off without the user pulling the trigger with their finger. That is fucking terrifying.

Is that made in China? No, it's made in New Hampshire God damn it, New Hampshire But the one thing I'll say about this one About the airmen being killed I think there was some foul play That came out after the fact So I just obviously want to be specific

About that one But regardless of this one or not There's a lot of these coming out About the 320 so Yeah, we started this week You were talking about how guns are a tool And they don't shoot themselves Except for this one

Yeah But yeah man That's how I think of it But at the end of the day, you, I think that there needs to be, I don't know what the right answer is. I know people are super staunch on like, it's in the fucking constitution. And I agree with that. But at the end of the day, I think like, you know, it's also different state by state. So in Jersey, you have to go through a background check.

And I don't see why that's an issue elsewhere. Like, why not? What's the problem with that, you know? Yeah. I think people get upset when they feel like they're legislating the background checks in a sense that they can say like, oh, this is going to take a year and eventually it'll take two years or something like that. I get that, but I'm with you. I think like, you know, there's there's a constitutional right, but there's also a line. So like should a child predator be who's out of prison be able to buy access to a gun? No, I don't think they should. Right. I would agree. Yeah. So there's there's a line somewhere and I will admit it turns into. to a weird line because you start with something obvious like that and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and it works its way all the way back to something that's like wait a minute what's wrong with that person owning a gun they they were speeding they were doing 65 and a 55 and they can't own a gun right like it gets a little crazy and that's where people get up tight i understand that and there's there's truth to it too because like that's why you know organizations like the nr a defense organizations that's why they're so serious about not letting the other side have an inch because, and I get it, you know, that you take an inch and then you want another inch and then another inch and then before you know it. Yeah.

Kind of crazy, though, that you mentioned those guys getting called out to that Blackstone shooting. That motherfucker was just, I mean, do we have an image of that? Oh, God, dude, that picture is. Yeah, he was walking like Omar Little in the middle of Manhattan just with the gun towed. I swear to God he was whistling like, do, do, do, do, do. Super chill. And then just, like, psycho. Now, yeah, look at them. I haven't, yeah, look at that. Not giving a fuck.

In the middle of a squad. Like, no one said anything? No one's like, hey. I mean, hey, I guess if you're sure of the fact that that's the last 20 minutes, like, fuck it, let it rip. You know, but that is, that just speaks to the insanity of these people. Now, now, here's the thing on this one. And I always, I want to preface this by saying, we got to be so careful with running with narratives. That's what tinfoil had internet does way too much.

of, but this guy had been a football player. I can't remember if he went like semi-pro. He didn't make it to the NFL. But this was where the NFL offices were. And he had written some sort of last letter or manifesto claiming he had CTE and was upset at the NFL and all that for doing that. It felt like football had done it to him. That said, he ended up, he did shoot someone, I believe, in the lobby who worked for NFL, but he went up to the Blackstone floors. And he gunned down an innocent woman who was doing nothing wrong. We want to be very clear on that. But this was like a, it's an interesting coincidence.

Because this lady, can we get her name? It's not fair for me to say that without her name because she was killed here. Wesley Lepatner. She ran, you know, she ran the reits desk, I believe, at Blackstone, the R-E-I-T, real estate investment trust. Okay. And the thing about all these big companies. Whether it's Blackstone, Black Rock, Vanguard, whatever. Many of them are buying up real estate in metro areas and suburban areas around the country

because they can at scale with no intention to ever put it back on the market and basically get a monopoly through business competition of the oligarchs, which is they're competing against the biggest companies, which is each other, and they get a monopoly on the houses and then get to control rent prices effectively because if they own a certain percentage of the market, they can kind of control what they sell those things for and leave people chasing rentals instead of homeownership and continuing to kind of inflate away, no pun intended, but pun intended, the ability for future homeownership in America. And so people, they get their heads on with this.

I think a lot of it is just downstream, you know, quarterly report fucking competition. of people trying to chase to make sure that they don't lose their job, but an unintended consequences that it has enormous long-term consequences on society. It is very, very sinister to me that that is the woman who was shot, the woman who's like in charge of that or was one of the people in charge on one of the deaths for that at Blackstone. And now you don't really hear about that. You just kind of heard on the news, you know, legitimately like her story, this is a married mother of children and whatever and was a well-liked employee of Blackstone, but they didn't really talk about what she did.

did. And I wonder, I wonder if there's something they're not telling us there about, you know, her potentially being targeted. So just because of what she did. It's Blackstone, not Black Rock. Yeah, I believe it was, we got that right. So they're two separate companies. Yeah, yeah, Black Rock's a separate company. It was Blackstone. Okay. Yeah, I don't, I don't know too much about it. Yeah. I don't know. When I see stuff like that, you know, and then you see stories go away, this is where my, you know, my, my light goes off a little bit because it's like, You know, why do that? Why do they want that going away?

Is there something, is there a little racket that they don't want to tell people about? I think that's, uh, it's good to be a skeptic. I think so, too. But there's a danger with that. Yes, there is. Then you think everything's a fucking conspiracy. That is the danger. And I run into that all the time with people.

Oh, my God. I'm just like, guys, go out, touch some grass. Look the sky. It's blue. Everyone's happy. Like, I'm not saying everything's great. We got some problems. And there's some real conspiracies. Well, but at the end of the day, it's been very generous of the CIA to contribute to my success and your success and Danny's and, you know.

Yeah, apparently, they have their own investment arm and they fund all these shows, which, you know, thank you guys. I was unaware you were doing that. You could have got me out of my parents' house a lot sooner. That would have been nice. Yeah. But, you know, whatever. Let's talk about this because I asked John about this because. Kiriaku.

Yes. I had a feeling that people, people trust what he's, as far as ex-CIA officers go, people trust him, I think. Because he fucking hates them. Yeah. Right. Whatever the case is. But, okay, so did you happen to see Sean Ryan on Tucker, Carlson? I know he went on it.

I saw a clip. He talked about, long story short, he talked about like the CIA infiltrating podcasts. and the example that he used was Sean had this guy on who Blarim Scoro is his name and he was a CIA and FBI agent that is an asset not an officer This is the guy he asked on camera

I saw this clip he asked a dude on camera What if the CIA just sent you here to say this or something? Yeah dude but this is this would I'm interested to talk to you about this Because again for people that didn't see it The the point that Sean made was let's say this guy bleram scoro like his his story is like let's say it's al-Qaeda and it's in the middle east at one point in the interview he mentions to sean something about russia and something

alarming about russia that they were trying to like smuggle some nuclear material somewhere or proliferate something something weird and then sean like he asked the guy on the show he's like when's last time you had contact with the agency which is a good question because yeah exactly yes and his story was that he got burned by the agency. And Sean, I was like, well, I'll tell you what I'm thinking. That seemed a little out of place. So if the agency, for example, knew that you were coming on this podcast, the Sean Ryan show's got quite a bit of reach, and they said to you, hey, say whatever you want, but just work in this one thing. And in this case, it didn't come up organically. So he just

fucking hail married it and threw it in there. And dude, that got the wheels turning in my head. like it's one thing to have somebody that you know people speculate is like just running the CIA narrative to the ground but then there's another thing it's another thing to have a person that it's just one sentence one thing which is fucking crazy that i had never thought about that until he said that and i asked john about it and uh but what do you think about that what did john say about it he said i could totally see it you know you got shit like mockingbird and cia and media and why wouldn't I. So, I got so many thoughts on this, man. And Sean's absolutely right. It could just be one sentence. So, like, one little side thing. Once they, it's almost like they low you to sleep, low you to sleep and say, yeah, by the way, nuclear bombs, Russia are like, oh, keep words hit. You know, and it could be that simple just because it's something memorable and people are playing. Like, yo, remember that crazy motherfucker with the Russian accent who was saying they were moving nukes on fucking Sean's podcast? Holy shit. And Sean, we love Sean. So that must be true. It can happen. But I always look at it this way.

Like when people flip out about like Bustamante being on or something like that, it's funny. Because I'm like, first of all, y'all are going to hold him in check in the comment section. Secondly, you know who he is. It's on his resume. And I tell him to his face every time I don't think you ever left. And I think most of you people haven't left. And everyone out there thinks the same thing. So it's open.

It's right in front of you. where I get way more concerned is exactly what you're talking about when it's someone who comes in here and that's not on the resume could be someone in here for something not even fucking geopolitical nothing to do with it

and I'm not going to comment on all this because I don't I got to be really careful speculating on things where I don't have pure proof but can I tell you that there have been a few times where my alarm bell goes off

after the fact fuck yes and I I know one of them I'm right about. And I wish I could 100% prove it. I can't. But there is one that I am, oh, I know I'm right about.

And it's like, well, what? And I'll go through the table. I'm like, well, what did they say? There could have been some of it. And I don't, that's the worst part. I don't fucking, I don't know. Can you give any context on camera? Are we going to have to talk about the soft camera?

No, I haven't even given context to people about it off camera. I've kept this with me and myself. Because it's a big claim. It's, it's a big claim. but and and i'm not even saying that's like cia or something what what i understand about the world that i've learned talking with a lot of different people is that the world to say the world is run by intelligence agencies is a lazy statement because it's actually deeper than that it's not necessarily in my opinion there's forces we can't see we can talk about that too but the

forces you can see. Let's focus on the intelligence agencies. It's not so much that it's run by them. It's run by the consequences that they view as Bustamante would say the casualties in the real world of the actions that they take against each other covertly. And that includes people who diplomatically are friends. Below the surface, these guys can tell you all they want, all they want. Yes, the five eyes get along more than others. Yes, they share intelligence. No one's full friends. Do you fuck over your friends once in a while because you're afraid they're going to do something to you? No, you don't. Right. If you do, that's not a healthy friendship. Got news for you. They're all like that. And I, it's human nature. So we are living in a world that is just the result

of the casualties that occur in these underground things that have nothing to do with who anyone votes for by the way. It's beyond that. It's past that. And so, yeah, why wouldn't that affect podcast? How many podcasts is Joe Rogan done, including the MMA show, almost. 3,000, probably like 27, 2,800, something like that. I remember he went on on Lex Friedman's show a few years ago, and he talked about it. He thinks about it too. He's like, I fucking talk to four people a week. One guy does this, another guy does that, another girl does it.

I don't know who fuck all these people are, nor would I expect him to, by the way. We've seen them do it in traditional media forever, and they're even more open about it there. So, you know, to some extent, my opinion at this point, cynical as it may be, is that anyone in this space, including people that don't even cover these types of events, and there's some sort of, you know, 4D chess second layer to whatever it is that their audiences who listens to them. Let's name a random one, like a Jay Shetty. It's like out there doing mental health stuff. You think totally great, right? Jay Shetty doesn't know, it's not his fault. He doesn't know every fucking guy that comes on there and what narrative someone might be trying to put.

just on the masses and where that comes from every show with any attention at any level independent mainstream is susceptible to being used as a useful idiot and unknowingly hopefully unknowingly has been in the past myself included hey man and that's why i asked you about it because uh like you and i we don't have a fucking team of producers to no to vet people and validate so i think what's again i said this in my podcast with john too so sorry if i'm repeating myself but i think the important point is the onus is on the individual, right? So it's for you to decide. Like you may have just heard a CIA, whatever, narrative.

But that's for you to decide, man. And I think there's still at the same time, there's a line where you and I decide where the line is for who we platform in the first place. But parallel to that line, people have to take everything, everyone says with a grain of salt. But I think, dude, something that's so interesting to me like going back to your point about um the unseen forces like fuck man

we are so divided in this country and people are up in arms against each other about this narrative versus this one and i just like i try it's i feel dirty when i get involved with it so i try to keep it i first of all i keep it entirely out of my show i don't want to fucking talk about i'm not interested in it i don't like it at all i don't talk about my friends whatever but what i think about is that we got these people fighting over these narratives, but we're not even privy to what's going on behind the scenes. Right. Like, I just talked to fucking, sorry, I keep bringing up, John. It just happened. Yeah, yeah. Great guy to bring up. Exactly. But for example, you know, Netanyahu has asked every president to bomb Iran, and Trump is the first one to do it. And so what people think is,

like this is what it is at face value, but I would like to think there is some information behind a classification that you and I don't know about and there's some reason behind this decision. That's, again, that I'm not giving my opinion on that example. That's just an example. Or, you know, because now we look back at it and Monday morning quarterback it and say, oh, well, you know, we arm the Mujahideen in the 80s and now look what the fuck you did. But at the time, I'd like to believe it's, you know, naive maybe.

i'll just call it out but that they were acting on what information was available to them and in that sort of manner but i don't know dude i think about that a lot and just the fact that you know it's all it's all a big fucking show and we don't we don't see what's behind the curtain and that to answer your question is what i love about having delta force operators and cia officers on is like that's the ground truth those are the guys that the people in fucking air-conditioned offices in dc sent to do those things as best as they can see it where they weren't compartmentalized but i'll take it from them over some politician on cnn or fox absolutely and i can appreciate it a lot more from them too because they actually had to do the hard things yes you know i i know i i think

it's a great point i i think to answer your question with a hypothesis the the the reason a nett and yahoo might have been successful at getting Trump to bomb Iran is sitting on East 71st Street and you know that's just what it is there are things that seem to by the way is that Epstein's penthouse

or townhouse rather sorry to interrupt you but I wasn't sure 9-E 771st Street and it's like we now have entered a time period where we still don't know shit right but with the internet

we know the toilet you know we don't see all the piping but we can see the water in the toilet for the first time and actually aim and shoot right no pun intended but you know because of that now when there's when there are certain things that are so obvious in front of people that then get shoved under the rug forget the fact that it's offensive to civilians like you and me imagine how offensive that i mean you can see it how offensive that is to some of the guys that we talk to and and the guys who have lived in including stuff that they're not comfortable even talking about on camera because it pisses them off so much it's like you know rogan used to have a great line that i just think was perfect where he was like all these people who come up to see the president on

day one in office they were there before he got there they're going to be there after after he leaves and even all those people are still compartmentalized in some way on the need to know in the worlds that they know so when you put all those compartmentalizations together no one really knows shit but the machine the blob if you will that's like mike bends his line the blob knows the octopus knows because all the tentacles go somewhere and then maybe there are people at the top of that tentacle who know more that can know more of those buckets if that makes sense to be bought there but it it gets really tough when you start to look at a guy like Trump, if you ignore the politics, right? And just look at it on the surface, this is a guy who's

supposed to be coming in as the political outsider. When you then see him come in, albeit for the second time, and do things that look like it's just a part of the same little inside club and you ain't in it. No matter where you stand left or right, there's something in that that's demoralizing. I've had a lot of conversations with liberals and conservatives recently. So that ranges on the spectrum from people really don't like him to people who liked him, I'll say. A lot of people I'm talking to on the right side are like, I don't know about this guy now. And I get that. But it's like the common refrain is like, well, at least we could even from the left, well, at least he could try to do this and now he's not doing that.

It's demoralizing. Because it's like, does your vote even mean anything? You know, I won't speak for you, but especially off camera, some of these people. I've spoken with, they think it's like funny. They're like, yeah, right. Oh, yeah, your vote. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Making a difference.

Yeah, making a real difference in the world. They're like, it'll move it 5% this way or 5% that way. It's a cultural shift. That's why every presidency goes, Republican Democrat, Republican Democrat. But it's like the real decisions of being made by something above that. And I don't think you have to be a conspiracy brain to think like that now. Yeah. I mean, again, man, you don't have to have the answers, but it's good to speculate.

It's good to just be aware that what you're seeing may not be the full picture. Just that, just having that lens in general. You don't have to, you know, overanalyze and dissect everything, but just to take everything with a grain of salt and seriously. You had in that guy Rick Spence, right? Yeah. And he's like a cults expert and that stuff. What did he, like, who did he think, quote unquote, runs the world, hypothesis? and how did he look at it he uh so he didn't have a definitive answer but what i what i found

interesting about rick is just the way that he thinks about things um and i think that would be the thing for people to pay attention to but like the idea was that essentially again going back to this concept of of not taking something at face value it's just about thinking strategically um and thinking about what the range of possibilities may be right and there's a there's a percentage base assigned to all of those ranges and you know is it some fucking cabal of baby eaters that convene once a year and and drink blood like sure that's an option it might be a 1% option you know what i mean like so what's more likely is is something else maybe but his point was just don't rule don't rule anything out, but don't get attached to something just because you think it's interesting.

That's the problem. That's a great point he makes. People don't want to hear that. But people want the most ridiculous sinister outcome to be the outcome because it makes their life more interesting. And it's easy for any of us, myself included, to fall into that trap. But you can't do that. You have to be able to have honest conversations about things. But the internet incentivizes, we are all team whatever, or we are all team. whatever and you're either on the team with every fucking thing or you're not and you're not gonna be in the algorithm and i don't i don't know how you think about it but like i'm uninterested in that man i have a line in this show in the sense that when i bring people on at least going into it sometimes afterwards you're like oh okay that was a little fart and i thought

but when i when i'm looking at bringing people on i bring people on from across the spectrum across all different topics sometimes we're not even talking any policy or whatever with some of these people i'm thinking of in here but it's like in general what's their world view there's a line for me though right if zero is farthest left and a hundred is far this right i'm not really interested in going past 20 or 80 to either opposite direction because i can predict every fucking thing the person's going to say they're not going to even listen to probably any counterpoints i might have not even to rebut them but to say have you thought about it this way or have you considered this perspective and like you

you know you talk with people for a long time speaking for myself it's not interesting talking with someone for three hours who again you can predict everything they say and you're not going to get anywhere with them and you're not going to learn anything new yeah and i dude i i give you credit for doing what you do because it's i uh man i yeah i respect your ability to talk about these things especially geopolitically with people and like be able to stand your ground and i again for people that you know that's that me i don't know how much of that is like intrinsic to you like let's call a talent versus just being well versed on something and like doing a lot of front-end research and i would say like again going back to to that talent piece the the more

the more you verse yourself in something the less you have to rely on on talent to get you there sorry what was the original point that you made up or because i wanted to say something about that what i'm saying is how you how you look at the spectrum of who you're talking to like speaking to the extremes how interesting is that well dude that's and that's one of the big things i think is uh a problem that feeds into this division is like you and i there was a time where if you and i thought differently we could just sit down and have a conversation about it and be friends afterwards and i don't really fucking care what you think like it's it's not relevant to our friendship let's so to speak like in people's lives but now like i feel like what i see

what I see with this stuff and like the infighting and division is that people when they have a conversation it's let me let me give you an example like let's say i don't know let's say you're on the right and i'm on the left and you and i have in a conversation and i i like if if trump does something that's great trump cures cancer i on the left don't want to say that trump did something good objectively because it feels like i'm seating ground to you and And it's all this, all the time. And that's what I feel with people, man. And I'm like, if that's, if that's what it's gotten to, then how the fuck are we ever going to get to the middle anymore?

How, like, where is the truth going to lie then on that spectrum? And how can we even tell where it is? I don't know is the answer to that question from my end. But also, what I do feel confident is that if you're looking at power structures, like the elites, just put them all in one bucket, regardless of who that is. is a divided society is a compliant society because you distract them with these shiny little objects over here to fight over everyone gets all pissed off that's where social media runs to the algorithms push it they get mad at each other there's infighting there's whatever and then there's some political repercussions but the real things are what happened behind closed doors where decisions are made often about far away places that and impact the world economically socially politically politically and geopolitically you know and and i think that if you look throughout just even american history post industrial revolution even it's probably a pretty fair takeaway look at the look at the british empire pretty fair takeaway you know that's that's that's what these guys do and you know i one of the

things i'm sure you have these moments in your podcasts these little things sometimes maybe that fans listening don't notice like you do because they're not in there but these little things where someone says something and the context in which they're saying it and the way in which they say it and the moment in which they say it while you're sitting there with them you're like whoa like holy shit that's a good point one of them for me was when boost amante in episode 107 with me was i think this was like an hour 40 minutes in or something like that he was like we need an enemy we need an enemy that we can look at and say that's the enemy that we can all coalesce around so that that's where our focus goes and the

saddest part about that statement is that historically speaking he's not wrong and what he was trying to say is you want to solve some of the division problems in this country have a common thing to fear and right now the common thing that we fear is each other we need to point that outward which is sinister as fuck and has massive implications towards human life on this planet so i don't support that but psychologically i have to look at this objectively and say like is he wrong i don't know i don't think so right do you do you think that exists right now like some sort of enemy that everyone can coalesce around and look at that you think is going to get worse I don't know. Nothing stands out. I mean, dude, I think that we're just against each other. And the enemy is whatever flavor of the week it is. The enemy is whatever topic that has been chosen for us to beat each other up over. Why? Does something stand out to you that I'm missing? Because I might very well be. No. I don't disagree with you. I think what they want it to be now is China. And that's understandable. The

their GDP some of the soft power they're doing around the world certainly and like you know it's a it's run by the CCP which it's politically we can complain all we want about what we got here it's way better than that so some of that would make sense on paper but it's like also you know no one's thrown a bomb at us no one's done anything like that and they want people to they whoever they are they want people to get so into fighting against an ideology like that and i don't think i think the louder noise of social media and things that are happening here is drowning that out and so yeah we're divided so we're compliant in a lot of ways but it's a pain in the ass i'm sure for the elites because now all these idiots got a goddamn voice on the internet you know i'm sure it drives

and nuts when they see like the biggest show in the world is joe rogan who's like a fucking comedian cage fighting analyst who talks with whoever he wants and god bless him for doing it you know crazy man so crazy yeah i uh i i love that about jo the fact that he'll just have anybody on but um yeah i mean to your point about china bro like that's a good example because there's a lot of different people that'll tell you a lot of different things about china there's one school of thought and you'll hear people talk this talk about this on podcast that they are fucking public enemy number one, the most formidable threat that we have. Like, it'll come to a ground war with them and we're already in an economic war with them and how much some of that

may be true. And then there's other people that are like, well, you know, yeah, like, their China's serious, but maybe not. I wouldn't go that far with it. So that's just a perfect example of something that some of it may be narrative based. You know, I'm sure the Lockheed Martins and the Raytheons of the world would love for people to buy into the fact that China can build ships at whatever 20 times the rate that we can and you know that they had they've gone hypersonic and all this stuff i mean i'm i'm sure there's there's always narratives behind certain things and that's again bro that's just the tough part with me like we just talk to people and listen to what they have to say but where the ground truth is i don't fucking know i want to have a security clearance so right right you do

the best with the information you have and the person sitting in front of you and that's that's the tough part of the job but you know we you're focused in this case it would be on on a country that's halfway around the world with all different alliances and influences from us and everything but we're apparently even struggling with that on the home front because china is one of many places that's using like the cartels to run like a backwards war against us or our own border that we fucked up like we can't even get our shit right at home and we're worried about how we're going to look internationally against other places. I'm not undercutting our military and their power and all that. I hope we don't got to use it. But it's like, man, sometimes it feels a little

ass backwards. You had a, what's her name? Fucking Marianna Van Zeller. I mean, she's covered all that stuff. Dude, she is a G, bro. I had so much fun on that podcast. And again, I wasn't like prior to having her on. And again, apparently this is extremely common knowledge. And I'm an idiot. But I wasn't aware of just the scope or the scale rather of cartel operations especially inside the united states and she kind of got me up to speed on that because in their their new season that just came out she she did an episode on cartels embedded within what's the name of that show again trafficked with marianna vinteller it's on hulu and national geographic uh national geographic but um yeah bro i had i had no idea because like that again that was the first time that i

actually dove into the cartels on my show um and i just i didn't know how how deep those roots were what did she find like what was what was the context there so dude and again like the stuff that blew my mind people that love the cartels and they're all in on this like that's probably common knowledge to them but just how common it was to just grease the palms of border agents the fact that they're paying them all off and slipping things right through the border she had one um she talked to this drug mule who smuggled like i massive amount of fentanyl over the mexican border into california in some compartment in her car and uh she so they watched the car go through the border and the drugs weren't found we can she was

like because i asked her too i was like where you conflicted like letting those not that you know what are you going to do we talk about that but the point that i was going to make was that she watches it come in and then on the other side of the border in america she you know goes up to the car and interviews her obviously her faces blurt out and everything and her voices distorted but she was like you know weren't you concerned weren't you worried like that's terrifying you're you're gonna go to prison forever and she's like oh no that's why i come at this time a day because like i know this guy and you know he works i got a guy yeah he works for us shit like that shit she talked about um just how like they they set up networks inside the u.s

so again take what i say with a grain of salt this is secondhand i'm not an expert on this um but just how they're how they bring in drugs like all kinds of crazy shit man and uh fuck i know you've had um you've had a couple people on here uh i know obviously john norris and i just thought of him because of the the china connection but uh you've had ed called her own in here right and then who's uh can'tarina schultz yeah but there's another another man i can't remember ken mcgee who's fighting the columbian cartels i don't know norris was 265 schultz was 294 and 313 And then I had in Johnny Mitchell for 314.

Ed Calderon was 292 and 293. Matthew Hedger was 290 and 275. He was undercover with the cartels. Yeah, what? I saw clips from that. I know you had him twice, but he was like a knock or something embedded with cartels. What is his story? Bro.

Woo! Yeah, return my text, Matt. You're seeing this. I haven't talked to you in a while, pal. but he was a knock as you said non-official cover which is the deepest form of spy that there is you want to talk like CIA is already supposedly case officers denial this is completely off books denial it's straight out of a movie script he the only reason he is not in anymore in that capacity is because his identity was leaked there was a leak at CIA I he didn't confirm who it was

it sounds like it was Chinese intelligence, got some sort of leak. I can't confirm that, but that's what I implied or inferred from what he was saying. And there were five different, five or six different knocks whose identities were uncovered and their names were published on the dark web. So the chances to anyone listening even saw this are slim, but that's still something public. They were published by that foreign intelligence agency, which is probably China, and they all had to be pulled from the field. So when you talk about guys who actually like aren't doing their job at CIA anymore, like, he actually can't like he and there's a lot of countries he can't go to but his job was to be a professional criminal they trained him to be a money laundering expert in particularly and he had

to play the role of a guy who was working at you know a regular corporation who had this skill and at first infiltrated biker gangs and eventually through those connections just happen to be able to infiltrate the cartels and the idea was that it's not like to infiltrate it to then use those organizations to actually commit the crimes, though he was doing money laundering for them and other things. So it's like they are doing crimes. But it was more so like take the biker gang example. They're an international organization.

It was a top four gang. He can't say which, but you can do the math, right? International organization. So if he's a known biker gang guy, like known to different FBIs around the world, if you will, let's say he and his buddies take a trip to Hungary. he gets into the country what are the what are the what's the intelligence saying there they're like oh yeah these are biker gang guys he's identified as a biker gang guy so when he goes back to his hotel changes his identity for a second and goes and does some nuclear

football meet up with some russian fucking arms dealer that has nothing to do with the biker gang he's not even being trailed to be looked at for that because he's not suspect it's like double level spying so that you can do all these horrible things for 99.9% of the time and then that point one percent of the time it gives you a cover as a as a criminal to step out the back door for a minute and go do real CIA shit so this is what he would do and he ended up in the cartels and this was the craziest thing Dalton this is like when it comes full circle and you're like fuck he's sitting here on March 5th and I had Shawnee in here the second time with him who's she was a DIA lady and he tells the story the second podcast we did

number 290 he tells this story about how he personally flipped a top 10 guy at a top 10 bank normal dude to launder money for the cartels and he runs through american bank not gonna say did he say no okay but like top 10 bank top 10 guy normal guy didn't have blackmail on him just got him to flip oh yeah right and then they used this because that was his job to do for the cartels and he was really good at it and he goes through this whole thing a week later to the day i have Ed Calderon sitting there. And Ed Calderon at one point, it's like, so, I mean, are we not going to talk about the CIA? And how, and how they're flipping big bankers at top ten banks and top ten guys?

Oh, yeah, they're doing that. I'm like, no shit. I'm like, hold on. Let me check these goosebumps. Funny you say that, Ed, I had the guy who actually is responsible for doing that sitting in that chair a week ago. And Ed didn't even flinch. She's like, well, there you go. there's a proof

but it's like this world is so complicated now that's one where we're actually inside it and doing things and yet in the same world where we can pull off that kind of stuff like our people or whatever you know mariana's uncovering all the shit

that we can't even keep our own leaks together like on a basic level like a basic mules coming across the border with fucking fentanyl to kill our kids it it bothers me so much it's like there's chosen places for competency and there's chosen designated places where we just decide we don't need it and who ends up paying the price is the citizens of the country god bro i mean first of all i think that

she says this too but the unfortunate part of it is that none of this you know fentanyl's being smuggled over the border would be relevant if there wasn't a demand here for it yeah like we we love it we fucking love it we want more of it we want to kill ourselves with it and like i understand addiction as a disease i'm not disparaging that i'm not that's not my point but my point is i think we need to we need to correct that first because yeah we can talk about we can talk about the the nature of of these cartel members and and the people that bring drugs in but again it's it's it's all basic supply and demand bro and like that's what i asked her too i was like how the hell do they turn these people How does, how does somebody like Matthew Hedger turn a banker and money, right?

And like, and that's, again, that's, that's obvious to a lot of people, but it's life-changing money. Like, how is the average person going to say no to that? If you're a border agent and you make, I don't know what the hell they make, and the cartel offers to, you know, 5, 10x that, just to turn your head for 30 seconds, people are going to take that deal. But, but yeah, bro, I mean, that is something, that's another thing that I find really interesting about this intelligence and spook world is like the people that come on our show, they're, they're, um, is that a bad one. Unfortunately, like the term, I have an idiot who it probably has no concept. I'm not even going to say, but yes. Yeah, something world meaning this intelligence world. I can't. It's such a fun word to say in that context. But you know how it goes. Yes, I do. It's so stupid.

In this world, these things, like, the people that come on our show, and they're, they're telling stories from operations that have been declassified and that sort of thing. But the interesting thing to me is, like, the layers. Yeah. Like, cover as a diplomat, you know, working in an embassy in Iran, and then being an operations officer and recruiting people at cocktail parties on the side is one thing. cover as a criminal and a biker gang is a different one there's there's layers to uncover i find that fascinating you also have to psychologically find the people who fit the profiles to be able to do this yes you do and that's always i mean you've seen you've seen why john could have been great at what he did oh my god there's so much psychologically going on there but that was the thing with matthew he's

like you know borderline like on the spectrum low key dude and there was a moment in two seven The first time he was in here where I said, what would you talk like when you were this guy? He was this guy for like 10, 15 years and like you could see him almost get like internal anxiety that now he was like, there's cameras and he's going to do it. And it took like a second. And it wasn't this like it wasn't like watching an Australian Heath Ledger turn into the joker speaking, you know, American English like like a crazy clown, right? Which is an incredible acting performance. This was way more subtle. He was like he would speak a little faster. I was like, I'm like, all right, let's roll play a little bit. And then he like, you could see him be like, oh, we're doing this. And literally, like, there's this thing where it wasn't like this.

Right. But it was like, it was like, wow, I just unscrew that. That's crazy. It was like lean forward. You mean to tell. And it was just like clip and his soul just left his body. and he was that dude again. And I'm like,

this is different than winning an Oscar. You know, you know the cameras are going to stop with that. When you're in a character like this for that many years, you have no idea when those cameras are going to stop and you have to assume there's no such thing as takes. You know what I mean?

So crazy, you talk about the layers with these people. It's crazy to think about just how high the stakes are. You had on the dude Scott Payne too. Yeah. Like, how many places was he on the? undercover fuck uh well he he infiltrated the outlaws biker gang um he infiltrated this this group called the base which is a al qaeda that's what that means i know i know and i think i don't remember i he mentioned it in that's the translation from arabic to

english as the base but i don't know if they knew that and that's why they claim to not because they also claim to not be like a terrorist organization but this group called the base which they are essentially a neo-nazzi group, but what they're labeled as is accelerationists. Are you familiar with this term? Accelerationists. So what they believe is that society, as we know it, in America is going to collapse,

and what they want to do is accelerate that collapse of society. That way, when it all breaks down, they can set up a white ethno state. Yes. Good guys. That sounds, wow. And again, going back to your original point, bro, a lot of these I say guys they were kids they one of them was like 18 years old then they were all the oldest of them I want to say was like I think the leader was in his mid 30s but the majority of them let's say we're like early 20s and that's something Scott said he's like if you're a parent and you see your kid I don't want to say stockpile like I fucking stockpile ammo because I shoot a lot it's something I enjoy but it's okay when you do it but but this I don't buy I don't buy play carriers and put racist patterns.

on them and fucking buy night vision goggles and like that sort of thing and again I'll caveat that by saying not that there's anything wrong with owning a play carrier if you're a civilian but I'm not going to be the guy to take pictures of myself on a range wearing one that sort of thing yes anyway these kids their their idea was that you know that this is what they're going to do they're going to set up this white ethno state it wasn't very well planned or executed they didn't have a ton of infrastructure for it but what he ended up getting him on is is they had, they had planned the murder of this Antifa couple. They were journalists, I believe. And dude, the scary thing is like the, the level of detail that they planned for this, for this murder. Like, down to the fact that they bought, do you know what, like, you know, so for people aren't familiar, like, when you shoot any, any sort of pistol or rifle, there is like the, the full bullet that you see, the very end of it is the projectile. and the brass is like what holds the gunpowder and what the primer hits, that's ejected from the gun. So if you're seeing people shooting and there's shit flying out, that is the brass. Right. So what they did is, they bought brass catcher bags.

So what it is, it's a bag that attaches to where, like, no casings. Exactly. So you don't have to worry about picking them up. They also brought revolvers because when you, when you pull the trigger on a revolver, there's no casings ejected. The cylinder just keeps spinning. Is there any residue that can come from that, though? I don't know that. I'm sure.

I'm sure I don't know what the deal with that is because that's been around for a while that idea I'm not a ballistics I'm not either especially the kind of shit that's left and I'm sure these days I would like to think that people can really like figure these things out right anyway they did that they they scrub themselves at a motel room to make sure that they didn't drop any skin flakes at the crime scene they ditched all their electronics at a campsite they did all the shit bro and then to the point where he even, Scott talks about this, the one of the kids says to Scott, he says, he's like, I heard that essentially like your bowels, I guess, give out when you kill someone for the first time. This is what he read. So they all wanted to wear diapers. And Scott just like implied that he had already done that. And he's like, I think I'm good, bro. So you keep saying

kids, first of all, do you have like an exact age range? You could look them up. Just look up the base accelerationist group. But again, early 20s, one of them was really young. And I keep talking about it as if they did these things. They planned to do those things. And the team apprehended them before they actually went there. Approximately how old was Scott at the time he was infiltrated? He was a grown man.

So what was his cover with them if he was a lot older? I don't. So it wasn't a cover because they recruit on these like. Now we're on a fucking watch list after typing that in. No. Oh, yeah. You and me both then. sorry fellas well if you listen for some context yeah whoever's watching hey listen we're clean

we're clean um yeah let's not put that on the screen we're gonna yeah yeah dude wild wild stuff but yeah so they they recruited on these like telegram apps and stuff and it was basically like if you're racist enough then you can come join us and they did like a full interview panel and like scott told stories about like one guy they rejected because he had dated a girl that was like Hispanic or something like that or like he's like I think I might have like some Puerto Rican in my in my blood and just hear him behind like the the interview panel I think that might be a problem seriously dude but like bizarre shit and they like he says they like bastardized paganism so one thing he did with them is they they stole a goat from a neighboring farm

slid its throat, drank its blood, and took acid as a, of the, like, because it's, in paganism, I guess, they were, like, sacrificing this goat to Odin. How do you, how does, he seems like the coolest dude ever. Oh, my God, dude. How does he, how do you keep your wits? I mean, you're around some stone cold fucking morons and, you know what I mean?

Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, yes, both. But there, it's like a South Park episode. sometimes we're like yeah they're taking all our jobs we're gonna go kill like how do you not just be like oh my fucking dude and that's what i said and that's what i asked them i was like how how because they sit around a campfire and they talk about how bad every other race is so i was like okay like if you have to get into this character how much do you lean into it and i and what i asked them i was like okay you guys are sitting around at campfire like do you just wait for them to say f white people I'll say and you just like yeah

F what people or do you initiate and do you start the thread and that's something that he said too he's like you have to know when your like red pill moment was so for him meaning like I don't know what this fucking red pill thing means I think that means like when your mind changes on something because the red pill is like a space

whatever but him it was a real thing because he his mother got like grabbed or groped by someone at a gas station when Scott was a kid. And I believe it was like a black man. So he used that story and they bought it. Oh my God. He like method acted it too. Yeah. And it was real. And I think you want as much of it to be real.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. How long was he undercover? Like it's a while. No, just like in general. Bro. He did this stuff for years. Well, that's what I said. I was like, I was like, Scott, you're too humble to say this. But like, you have to be one of the most storied undercovers in the history of the FBI because he the way he explained it is like okay if you're if you got all the FBI undercover in a room and you're like okay how many of you have have been the primary on one undercover and a certain amount of hands go up and then they say okay what about two what about three what about four and by the time you get to four there's like not that many hands yeah and he's he's run the gamut bro it's it's so impressive but he also is doing the starring actor jobs

here's what I mean by that this Jim DiOrio has a better way of putting in my friend Jim de Oreo has been on the show a bunch she was undercover FBI on and off for 11 years of his 20-something year career there and he was like you'd have you'd have your starring roles so for example he went undercover for a long period of time with an unnamed dangerous criminal organization he had to gain fucking a hundred pounds to do you even look like when he has a picture of it doesn't even look like himself it's crazy to gain that much weight because he had to look a certain part for the organization. No, no, different, different organization. But he said then there were other times where he got to be a guest actor, meaning during the day, you know, Monday and Tuesday is in the office making cases with the suit on and the badge for FBI. And Wednesday, you know, they get a call on the fake phone that says, oh yeah, we're doing a jewel thing on once. Yeah, yeah, he's Timmy now. Yeah, no, I'll be there. And he shows up in character the next day and then doesn't have to play that

character for another two months right so it's like you're on and off but he's like when you are doing one of the starring roles which is like what your boy did here over and over again it's like there's a danger liking the people and becoming that person now did he say that it was easier to not like the guys who were like stone cold racist versus maybe i don't know the biker gang guys who were drinking and doing coke and having a good time. Was there any distinction there for him? He, I did ask him that. He's very professional, though. And he didn't, uh, he didn't say, like obviously he made it clear a number of times that he doesn't condone or didn't condone what they did. But he didn't say outright that like, oh, these, these, these kids were idiots and

it was more difficult for me to get in character. But, um, what I, he, he also had certain methods. Like when he would, um, get back to his hotel room or something from a day of like, again, And they do, bro, they would, like, train on the range in full kit, like, set up targets and shoot and just become very proficient. That's what they would do. And then when he would get back to his room at night, he would then, like, he wore a skull around his neck, like a necklace. And then when he got back to his hotel, he would take the skull off and put his cross

back on. And like little subtle things like that. Oh, he would do that. Yes, to remind himself that he was coming out of character. Whoa. But with the outlaws thing, like, he. is a biker you know and uh that was something really interesting we talked about is one of the guys scott town became like his very best friend and dude that's that's the crazy thing about that

undercover thing because when he teaches now he this is the example that he uses he's like when i when i get into a room and people you know i'm teaching people about undercover he goes like what do you think the definition of an undercover is and people throw out a bunch of different things and he says the the definition of of an undercover is building friendship that you are going to betray. And in that case, that was a real friendship. And he did, I mean, you know, it's the game, bro. It's, you know, I forget what it is.

Like the cartoon where the one cop checks in in the morning and the one robber checks in the morning and they say, you know, see you at work. Good luck. It's a strange thing, though. And, I mean, different guys that I've had in here have done similar things like Matt Hedger and he talks about it. He's like, you see these guys with their kids. you see that they can be a normal human off the clock sometimes but they have this thing

that can turn on that's not normal and not good and does not belong in society and you have to keep reminding yourself that but it's it's strange it's it's a very strange thing to think about and i would say any of these guys a scott a jim matt hedger if they obviously they have a gene that if they had wanted to be an academy award-winning actor they clearly could because this is like i'm sure i would love you know it would be amazing if you got like a daniel day lewis in a studio to sit with a guy like scott pain have scott tell his story about the things you would do and then have like one of the goats break down be like yeah that's pretty good you know what i mean like oh wow i'm gonna write that one down that's like crazy because

daniel day is doing it for the love of the game and takes it very seriously but it's not life and death right this guy can't ever really turn the character off except for that that that is interesting he would put the cross on at night to remind himself who he was i've heard other people talk before where they're like you can't do that you can't because like you can get stuck in that for a minute that's cool that he was able to do that but like other than when he's alone you never get to turn it there's no turning it off and it's not four months of shooting you know a film it could be fucking four years of being that guy being away from your family not able to tell your family about people lose it did he lose some family or friends in in that career no he remained married which again

in a field like that yeah exactly it's unheard of um he stayed married and gosh man yeah and and one thing i forgot to add is his this this guy who's his best friend scott town he you know he would he would hold his kids their daughters were the same age they liked all the same stuff like they may as well have been brothers and then he told a story about sitting in his apartment scott town's apartment one day holding Scott's baby and just thinking about this whole thing and then he looked on Scott's fridge and he had a sticker on it that said WWSD and Scott's like what's that and he goes oh that's what would Satan do and Scott goes oh yeah we're not the same right um but yeah bro that is uh but he couldn't so his cover involved him obviously not Scott not knowing that he had his own kids

like that right I don't know um his cover was that he because again you don't go into it hot right like if you if you walk up to a biker gang in a bar like hey fellas you want to commit some crimes like they're going to fucking sniff you out immediately so like you got a imagine going home to your wife be like yo i got a new assignment at the office today we got to go undercover it'll be fine there's going to be a few bikers coming over just just tell susy it's going to be cool no no yeah i think his cover was that he was getting a divorce and that explained him being there without his family maybe um but uh but yeah crazy man did he talk about like were there emotions from his life and other things that

happened to him maybe when he was growing up that allowed him to do this and maybe to give you an example what i mean like jim was a special forces guy and lost dudes out on the battlefield and has to this day severe PTSD from it and huge hairs like that stand up on the back of his neck and get him anxious all the time and he was obviously able to harness that and use that like I don't know this isn't the right term to all encompass it but just for the sake of argument here use that paranoia to play these roles really well and get in there did Scott use anything like from his life other than some of the personal stories you mentioned yeah he and he did and I asked him about this too because like the the again this was I try to work in like kind of or I have the past couple of episodes

I've done. I tried to work in like different sorts of questions. Like for him, what I asked him, I was like, okay, people are, you know, after 2020, a lot of kids especially, they don't know how to have a conversation with each other. They don't know how to shake somebody's hand and look somebody in the eye and people are having trouble making friends and just like striking up a conversation with people. And, uh, and I asked them, you know, what, what would you recommend to people to just be, you know, be more comfortable being themselves and making friends and that sort of thing. To your question, what he did do is he's very, like, outgoing and gregarious and self-deprecating and that sort of thing, like normally, right? And you want to use as much of what you got normally.

So he used a lot of that, just like he's just a fun guy to be around, just like a great storyteller, really chill dude, like somebody that you like being around. And so- Great storyteller. Yes, which is very, very important for a format like this, you know. Not even that for hours. that job storytellers run the world it keeps coming up today with different guys that we find interesting in our jobs who obviously used that skill yeah in their real life but um but yeah and dude an example i asked him about he had he had something in his book about um basically he like talked himself onto a flight when when the door was closed and it was like it was a detail part of the story

like it was part of another story but i asked him i was like what is that you know like what is what is that ability to talk to people and move the needle and make things happen and and he's like dude that's just like that's just me you know he said when he would take courses through the FBI like you can teach those things but he would realize in the middle of the course that oh like my brain already does this you know so fascinating we we get to live a little vicariously through it's what these dudes are saying isn't that crazy someone's sitting across from you yes in your little studio in my little studio here and we're making a cute little YouTube video and they're like let me tell you by the last 25 years of my life boy

it's crazy and you're like yes sir yeah yeah you go right ahead by all means yeah I'd like to hear more oh my god are there people you want to talk to that you haven't been able to yet or get in contact with oh bro I got a list as I'm sure you do my list is a little crazy it moves all over the place like do you actually like think about it unlike my dumb ass like oh I want to talk to this guy and then that guy and then that mine's just like oh yeah they seem interesting yeah it's like a very ADD well oh yeah yes big time because there's a lot of people that are really interesting yeah that's the point right like forget about him I'm like oh yeah I wanted to talk to that guy yeah like yeah well they are

that's true but that's the point bro you don't have to have some sort of crazy story or be renowned for like your average police officer your average firefighter like these people have incredible stories man so like you you don't you don't have to have you don't have to be um that person but yeah bro there's gosh there's all kinds of people um that i want to talk to for sure i mean i'm i'm endlessly interested in other people's stories you know you did you did you did a good one with uh what's named tim brown oh thank you yeah oh god dude yeah speaking of fire he's there on nine all he lost like all his friends in the showers he is uh god what a great guy he's another guy that I've had an opportunity to hang out with a little bit outside of the show and and just a really really good man and he is an incredible storyteller and like dude he is a walking memorial for those 343 firefighters that died a walking memorial because yeah for for for people that haven't listened to him talk like he goes through the events of the day and seeing all his best friends from the past 20 years and they they're all

dead all of them and he knows their very last moments he knows where they went like and the way he explains it dude it was it's just incredibly emotional and like he doesn't hold back either which i fucking love like he let's it rip and like he he gets emotional and he cries over his friends and memorializes them and immortalizes them and i dude i just i thought it was like what an honor man i that was one of them that when i was like fuck what an honor to be able to sit here with someone and hear the stories of these people and and have and have this like in my little podcast studio as you say um incredible man incredible he's he's been on danny too um he's he's the best i highly recommend especially when you know when 9-11 rolls around as it is soon um you know

watch it man you'll hear you'll hear the stories that we've been talking about the the best and worst of humanity and in this case the best because again going back to that point those guys knew after the first tower collapsed too they knew that it was likely that when they ran up those stairs they weren't coming back to save the lives of people that they didn't know and they fucking went up anyway it's amazing amazing it's it's one of those things that that's one of the first you know i i've scattered memories from before that day when i was really really little like oh i can remember this place or that thing that's one of the first days that i remember I guess I was like seven years old or something like that like start to finish every

part of the day and I couldn't fully comprehend what it was but as as the months and years went on after that it got more and more real and like you're you're from this area of the world did you and your family know people who died in in those towers yeah one of my one of my friends Chris Rossini he lost his dad yeah and it's like it hits extra for people who are from this area of the world. I knew a couple of people in those towers too. And more specifically, I should say, I was young. I should say my parents knew a couple of people in those towers. But, you know, it's a personal event in that way. But it's also, when you look at modern history, arguably the most seminal event that has occurred in the 21st century. Like, I always say the 1990s didn't end on January 1st,

2000. They ended on September 11th, 2001, because that is the before and after of what our world looks like. It is all downstream. It started massive geopolitical conflicts, wars that translated into other wars that have caused all these problems, an economic boom that happened on the outset of it and then turned into an economic bust on the back end of the presidency that was in charge during that time that completely changed the complexion of a generation financially, emotionally, you know, it was it was a it was a it was like rolling up a ball of dynamite and just blowing up what we knew of the world and yet it happened one mile from where we're sitting right now fucking crazy and then you get guys that's a beautiful term a walking memorial living memorial yeah those guys like a tim brown who can tell that story today damn near 25 years later as if it happened two seconds ago and he has to live with the idea that for some reason he survived and all most of his guys did not i i can't fathom it and it's

just i don't know people love to run with every theory about that day and stuff and trust me there's a lot that went on behind the scenes that involve other countries that we don't know about and it's sinister and i'm not i'm not denying that but i think sometimes we lost in the fact that a lot of people died that day and a lot of people had their life changed forever having to witness everything that day and then live with with with the fallout dude he's he's an incredible person and like going back to the psychology too he um he tells this story year round man he speaks on you know to to whether it's fire departments he speaks in the intelligence community of conferences he's on podcast all the time he never stops living this story and he's not doing it for himself it's not for

financial gain he's actually working on a book now um i think it'd probably okay for me to say that but it's not it's not for personal gain man it's not it's not for any of that it's it's so that we never forget never forget never forget and that's why he's doing it so like gosh man and it's so true 9-11 was just especially in the kind of people that we have on our shows it's it's it's this one constant that connects everyone you know like fucking john was there on on 9-11 at cia headquarters brent enlisted because of 9-11 yeah so many guys did that it's unreal dude and uh the mission status change because of 9-11 all of it 100% and to your point like it wasn't just it wasn't just this time in america it literally changed the entire world because you know literally i didn't

realize this until somewhat recently actually but i'm an idiot because it was so obvious every military guy i've had on all of whom are no longer active so they were in it you know during this global war on terror period some of them were in it before it and during it and after it every single person i've ever had on at some point the question comes up where were you on nine eleven yeah and then how did that change things and it changed everything for all of them i mean we were you know we're fighting in fucking bosnia before nine eleven people people only remember that you know and then these same guys oh we're footing over here let's go and then we all know the fall out of everything and how it got taken

advantage of by by a select group of not great people but it is it is such a crazy crazy inflection point not just for our country but for the world so i always appreciate when when you know guys like tim get to go on and just talk about the day itself yeah and what that was like you know big time you ever worry though that i mean people were so fucking together on september 12th 2001 i can remember that you ever worry that that's unfortunately the kind of stuff it takes for people to actually come together and put aside some base differences i don't worry that i believe that yeah and uh it's unfortunate and i hope that day doesn't come yeah but um to your point september 12th bro none of the things that you know

we've discussed around this narrative versus this one you know julian versus dalton julian's not julian Dalton's not Dalton, we're Americans. Right. I remember a story. My mom told me back then. It's just one of those things I can remember from that week. She was in the gym like a few days later. And one of the women that she always talked to in the gym, they were walking out.

And it's crazy to think about, but eight months before 9-11 was like the most, at the time, most contested election ever. And people were very divided over that. and the woman said to her, she said, you know, I wasn't really sure that Bush actually won, and I don't like him. You know, I voted for Gore, and I wanted him to win, but I'm fully behind him now. And I hope to see us respond to this the way we're supposed to. And obviously, that didn't end up turning out great. But something about, like, could you imagine someone saying that about, like, Trump right now? is something bad happen but like it's not inconceivable which is crazy you could get the person

that really hated them to be like well you know they just whoever it is just hit us and i'm rooting for them and it's like it's so sad to me that sometimes it takes that well i hope it doesn't man um but that's something that i've learned from from having these people on too and just like the you know the insight into um these these radical islamists and how they think and they think long term bro there doesn't need to happen doesn't need to happen tomorrow and they'll play the long game and you know i i i hope that uh i hope that we're wrong about that hypothesis and i hope that it doesn't take something on that scale um but yeah we have a very uh unique american view in one respect that's a huge downside which is that we have trouble even thinking about

fucking tomorrow is where one of the youngest countries in the world there and we are also not primarily one race we are all different types of people all coming together which is the beautiful thing about our country the thing about a lot of these other countries is they primarily will all be one different separate race and they have ties that go back thousands of years on the land that they're on and they also have borders with other countries where there have been massive you know geopolitical events and wars that happen between them whereas we are you know we got borders to the south and north

and we got to take care of and stuff but we are separated from the rest of the world by seas on both sides which is a huge advantage we I always joke like outside of the war of 1812 we have never been invaded for a sustained period and it really fucking shows and so we are complacent whereas other places

they generationally understand that they could not exist tomorrow and so they are thinking about depending on the culture it could be a hundred years out or it could be a thousand years out and like there's a respect i have for that but to your point you know anyone who could be an enemy or perceived enemy or potential enemy yeah just statistically speaking they're thinking farther out than we do and you know i i think a lot of unfortunately a lot of people in america we take that for granted And it's crazy that we do that.

And, you know, December 11th wasn't that long ago. You know what I mean? But that's what happens over time. People start to focus on other things. Dude, and I think that, you know, in addition, to your point about some of these Middle Eastern countries, that their survival is front of mind for them at all times, I think the further that we get or any society gets away from the survival line, the more we start to just create these own problems for us. yes like do you think that you think that kids that are starving to death in wherever they

happen to be are that was a very politically correct way of putting that and i'll i'll tell you why i said that uh do you think that those kids are worried about you know standing in starbucks waiting for the fucking coffee and complaining about being oppressed and i said it that way because i don't uh you know i try not to speak on things that i'm not well educated enough to speak on in general on camera is different um and you know how's it different on camera that's a good question i guess because i mean i try to i'm trying to just be cognizant of the fact that this is not going anywhere you know like this this will be here and i don't want to say things that i'm not perfectly educated on that won't age well or things that i don't know for a fact

oh the things that are happening are going on yeah yeah meaning like i just don't want to speak on um what i don't know but again like off camera maybe i can have a conversation with someone that that is a little different than than on camera that's a good question though no i i respect that it's the one thing you know i think the reason my podcast works is because the cameras go on and nothing changes the one thing you have to be a little bit more measured about is when you get to the most controversial geopolitical issues things happening around the world where there are massive you know lives lost going on in on in different facets you got to be it matters how you say things right And that's what, I mean, you will literally see, with some of these things, you will see me pause and be like, I know how I'd say this if we were just letting it hang.

Yeah. With the boys. But I need, like, I owe more respect to the situation to say in a more, I don't know, educated sounding and being conscious of what I don't know sounding way. And that's, that's the one place where I think you have to, and that's good that you have that where you have to be careful. because also like I don't think of this thing is anything serious but like it does have eyeballs and you don't know who's hearing that and who's passively being like oh that must be what the truth is well exactly and I don't want them taking that from me that's that's not you know people out there need to decide things on their own not not because I fucking say something that'd be a very bad idea yeah I agree and I think as you were saying that I was kind of thinking more about that and I think that number one I just I try to be professional I think professionalism a kind of across the board as it relates to my podcast is really, really important to me. And not to say that I'm perfect at it, but I really try to do my best with it. But the other thing is the fact that I've kind of drilled into my own head not to interject my own opinion on my podcast, because that's not

what I want. I don't want me on my show. I want the guest on my show. So it's just, it's funny being here, sitting here now and thinking about, okay, well, now is like now I'm talking a little bit. So it's just something that I've kind of embedded into the way I act when the cameras are on because I want to keep myself out of it. Are you afraid of the outcomes of what the response could be to that? No, well, no. The reason I like what I mean by that is like my show is if I'm doing my job right, I'm talking as little as possible. I'm not interjecting my own personal opinions or stories or weighing in on something that the guest says. I'm keeping my fucking mouth shut

and asking pertinent questions and following the thread and the interview is about them. It has nothing to do with me and I think that's what's been working about it because people crave that. There's so many because again bro like as you know

I think this is a fascinating concept a podcast or an interview rather I think that you've called yourself a podcaster or a conversationalist not an interviewer. I've heard you say that you've never interviewed anyone in your life. There you go.

So the mechanics of an interview are very, very different than that of a conversation. Yes. If I'm talking to you in a coffee shop, if we're having a conversation and you're talking for 20 minutes at a time and I'm just fucking looking at you like this, you can be like this guy is a sociopath and I'm worried about what's in his pocket right now. But in an interview, that is the format and it doesn't work otherwise. You know what I mean?

So like you have to, for me, I've had to beat these things into my system to resist the natural urge to jump in and convey to someone audibly that you're listening right because the more you say yeah that's fucking annoying to listen to after a while yeah so you learn to do things like convey that you're listening with your facial expressions and again these are all things that like i am i try to be hypersensitive of on my show and obviously they are kind of dripping into other aspects of of this but um yeah well you're doing an awesome job bro and i know you'll keep developing like how you you know what your role in it is i i understand that it's it's it's something you do have to consciously think about just if you are getting attention like you know it you're not

necessarily moving the legislative needle but there's the needle overall when you put all these different shows together of like popular opinion and what people listen to and not and it's it's a tough thing to think about but you do an amazing job with the editing of your show thank you questions are great the guests have been amazing You've been at it now for coming up on a couple years, which is great. I like to see people sustain with that. So everyone can check out Dawn Fisher Podcasts on YouTube. Video is also on Spotify now, too, right?

Yep. Okay. So we got it there. Because of you, I believe. Listen, bro, I told you. Put that video on Spotify. We are. We are.

That's great. That's great. Especially at the quality you're doing. It'd be like a waste not to put it on there. But you also got your Instagram account. We'll put that link down below. And are you on X, too? Dude, I, like, made one, but I don't know how I feel like in on X.

Yeah, X is an interesting place these days. I don't know if it's great for my mental health. Yeah, I don't think it's great for anybody's. Free speech is painful, as they say. Fair enough. Anyway, thanks so much for talking, man. It's great to finally hear a little bit of your perspective from the other side of the mic and hope to do it again sometime.

Dude, yeah, for sure. Thank you for having me, man. It's cool to be here. And like I said, if it was anybody else, I don't know that I would have done it because I didn't want the attention. but it was it was like i said man you're an inspiration for for me showing being shown that it can be done um so it's cool to be sitting across from you rather than watching you uh in your parents house with with jim luller talking about controlled sociopathy that's that's that's awesome man i really appreciate that's it's very very very cool to hear that so thank you and uh keep doing what you're doing

we'll do brother all right everybody else you know what it is give it a thought get back to me peace thank you guys for watching the episode if you haven't already please hit that subscribe button and smash that like button on the video. They're both a huge, huge help. And if you would like to follow me on Instagram and X, those links are in my description below.