Julian Dorey Podcast - #347 - Area 52 on UFO Tech, Project Stargate & Strangest Encounters | Chris Ramsay

Episode Date: October 21, 2025

SPONSORS: 1) MINNESOTA NICE: Minnesota Nice wants to help you find harmony—go to www.mnniceethno.com/julian and use code JD22 for 22% off your first order! 2) Discover your perfect mood and get 20% off your first order at http://mood.com and use code JULIAN at check out! PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/JulianDorey (***TIMESTAMPS in description below) ~ Chris Ramsay is a German–born Canadian magician and YouTuber and television producer who created and starred in the TruTV stunt magic show Big Trick Energy. His YouTube channel, featuring puzzle solves, cardistry and magic has over 7 million subscribers. Besides his magician career-related YouTube channel, Ramsay also has a YouTube channel "Area52" dedicated to investigations of UAP phenomena and anomalous experiences CHRIS'S LINKS: MAGIC YT: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrPUg54jUy1T_wII9jgdRbg AREA 52 YT: https://www.youtube.com/@Area52Investigations X: https://x.com/chrisramsay52 IG PERSONAL: https://www.instagram.com/chrisramsay52/ IG AREA 52: https://www.instagram.com/area52investigations/ FOLLOW JULIAN DOREY INSTAGRAM (Podcast): https://www.instagram.com/juliandoreypodcast/ INSTAGRAM (Personal): https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey/ X: https://twitter.com/julianddorey ****TIMESTAMPS**** 00:00 – Intro 01:23 — The Zimbabwe ’94 Sighting & Aliens Studying Us 11:48 — Alien Samples, PsyTech, and Why They Show Up 28:25 — Travis Walton’s Abduction & the Star Map Mystery 41:04 — CIA, Catch-and-Release Encounters, and Dismissed Stories 52:34 — Travis’ Isolation, Disclosure Timeline, and Psy-Op Theories 01:01:00 — Tall Blonds, Hybrid Theories, and Human Genetics 01:10:23 — Life Beyond Earth, Consciousness, and Quantum Reality 01:20:19 — Einstein, Telepathy, and Magicians in Parapsychology 01:28:59 — Magic Secrets, The 8th-Grade Epiphany, and Creativity 01:42:59 — The Alchemist Lessons & Purpose of Inspiration 01:53:43 — Magicians, Hermeticism, and Admitting We Know Nothing 02:04:52 — Remote Viewing, Area 52, and the Stargate Program 02:21:21 — Latent Psychic Talent, Entropy, and Survival Instincts 02:31:31 — Miracles, Magic, and UFOs in the Zeitgeist 02:54:24 — Religion, Aliens, and Hidden Truths in Scripture 03:03:41 — The Meaning-of-Life Question & Intelligence Sharing CREDITS: - Host, Editor & Producer: Julian Dorey - COO, Producer & Editor: Alessi Allaman - https://www.youtube.com/@UCyLKzv5fKxGmVQg3cMJJzyQ - In-Studio Producer: Joey Deef - https://www.instagram.com/joeydeef/ Julian Dorey Podcast Episode 347 - Chris Ramsay Part 1 Music by Artlist.io Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

There is another case. In 1975, November 5th in Snowflake, Arizona. They were driving home. They all pile up in the truck, and they see this giant UFO. Travis, being really bold and curious, gets really close to it. Starts hearing a noise as if it's, like, powering up. What he remembers is he wakes up on this table. He sees this bright light.

He sees these bulbous heads hovering over him. But I did ask him this question, if his feet were, like, hanging off the table. And he goes, no. So it's a human-sized table, which I thought was interesting. There's a case, 1954, Jesse Roastonburg describes the same beings. White, orange jumpsuits, jacked, perfect specimens. So I went down that rabbit hole, ended up speaking with Joe McMonigle, who's the first accepted remote viewer that they hired in the psychic spy program in the 70s

during Project Stargate to study the stuff. CIA. Yeah. What would happen? Hey, guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five-star review. They're both a huge huge help. Thank you. All right.

You were just telling me this off camera, Chris, but there's more to the Zimbabwe story than even I know. We were talking about the 1994 siting and everything. Yeah. And you said there was shit happening like the night before? There was.

Yeah, there's a lot of sightings night before. You know, Randall Nickerson did a great job on the, what is it called, the Ariel Phenomenon, great movie. Check it out. I would highly recommend watching that. He was so close to everybody involved, you know, with Emily Trim, who is, you know, sadly passed away not too long ago. He was very close with her and close to everybody there. But yeah, he would, he interviewed a pilot as well. I think you can check this out on their YouTube channel. I don't think it made the cut of the movie. But the pilot talks about like them picking something. up on the radar as well that kind of moves across the radar and they're like, oh, it's probably a glitch or whatever. The night before these kids saw it. Yeah. There was stuff going on in space the night before, but there was also space debris reentering

orbit. And I think that a lot of debunkers and a lot of people who were looking for something turned to that. But every other day we get something, you know, reentering orbit. So. Yeah. But yeah, that and the fact that, yeah, a lot of people, you know, saw some stuff the night before on top of that there is a um a giant uranium mine close by as well so

it's a uranium mine right there yeah that's that's nice and convenient yeah so it seems you know where the aliens want with uranium i don't know maybe they just want to know what we want with uranium that's what i think you know they're just studying us where they're little squirrels or ants yeah they're like don't play with that don't play with what are you doing yeah that's the case that was the one that very early on in me really thinking about this stuff made me go whoa yeah because you have a lot of kids kids man now kids you know listen there's always some sort of explanation that could say the other side's true but when you look at how they describe potentially encountering those ets you know out hopping on the logs just off where their school campus was

there in zimbabwe and the consistency of all of them describing it and then the pattern that they go through like the the telepathic nature of the communication the communication specifically being about how you know you humans have no idea what you're capable of or you know basically like themes of don't blow yourselves up like as a human race etc the size of the beings you know in the three foot area the way they looked this is all pre-internet era so it's not like people could be on like reddit threads and like do copycat shit in that way and when you look at all the different sightings around the world, across the continents everywhere, the ones I'm thinking of are pretty much every continent except Antarctica that I'm aware of, although there's a lot of

stories from Antarctica. It's like when you look at all those sightings from World War II on, the patterns of what they describe are very, very similar. And that's what gives me pause, because I'm like, okay, I know all these people didn't like come together in a group in a chat room somewhere in fucking 1971 when, you know, this is happening over a lot of different years, again, all pre-internet. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And Rua in Zimbabwe, you know, there's a lot of really interesting things there to look at as well. So not only were their children witnesses, there were teachers that witnessed that stuff too, you know, and people forget that. There were adults that just were afraid to come forward. But there were way more witnesses than were documented in

the documentaries. Yeah. Which a lot of people didn't want to come forward. And one thing that I like is you look at the drawings and they're not all exactly alike. Now, upon initial inspection, you might think that that is, you know, that leads, oh, maybe they're lying. But actually, for me, it tells me that they're telling the truth

because when you remember something, if everybody remembers it exactly the way it happened, that's a script. Right? And this is like there's just enough deviation between the stories where you're like, no, there's clearly, you know, the fundamental story.

here seems to be true yeah there was also i think it's the principal of the school is someone high up in the school later came forward years later apologizing because she didn't believe them yeah and once she had seen all the evidence that they presented and obviously like the studies that had been done by dr john mac from harvard and all that she was like oh my god like i should it seemed crazy of course but i should have listened and that's always that's nuts to me because even if something like this did happen, wherever it happens in the world, we are trained to be like, wait, what? Yeah.

Absolutely, man. And, you know, it's one of the things where you start to go, why, right? Why children? Why this place? Now, if you look at that school, it was an international school. Yes. There's children from all around the world, all races and backgrounds and religions. And, you know, as I was talking to a friend of my.

Luigi Venditelli, who is also really close with Emily Trim. He's currently working on the Bob Lazzar movie. And he was telling me, like, if you were to sort of test humanity on, you know, contact and how, you know, what would happen if contact happened. That's how you would do it. You know, people say, oh, I want it to land on the White House lawn. No one's going to believe it. It's the biggest UFO ever. Yeah, exactly. But no. No one's going to believe it. No one's going to believe it.

It's going to feel like a setup. It'll feel like them. It'll feel like the, you know, like some type of U.S. military thing, like a SIOP. No one's going to buy it. So, you know, for them to do it at a school where there's innocent children and like, this is like the perfect way to make contact when you think about it. Yeah. I actually, you know, I try to think as best I can, which is completely impossible.

But from what we can is like a human brain, I try to think about what would I, you know, be thinking if I were like an advanced civilization, whatever it is, and I were coming here to study the people here. And I've always wondered about like the simulation theory. And I'm not talking about Riz Verk's theory. I'm talking about them literally wanting to simulate what would happen if, you know, blank as an example. When you hear about like a UFO being cited, whether it be like Lonnie Zamora out in the desert, where you actually saw it and they allowed him to be seen or whatever, if a civilization were able to like bend wormholes or whatever, bend the speed of time and to be able to get here, I got to think they figured out invisibility or, you know,

speeds that are so high that no one can ever be seen or be able to pre-prevent anything like a crash in our universe. So that all being equal, it's like maybe then they're like, oh, let's see what happens if we crash. Yeah. Show them one. And just just see how people will react to it. most people won't believe it. But like, what will, what will the civilization down there on earth do when someone comes home and goes, yeah, I just saw a fucking alien. Yeah. Yeah, the, the donation theory, too, you know, that's really interesting. I, you know, I've given a lot of thought on, especially like the abduction side and a lot of the sightings. And what it seems to me, it's like the kind of working theory that I have right now is that we are dealing with

some type of system. And the reason I say that, like, are you familiar? with like, and I hate quoting 4chan as being a source here, but there, there, there has been like, you know, this one guy that came out on 4chan. He was like, oh, I, you know, worked at an underground thing that we were looking at this mobile construction unit in the ocean, this giant thing and like in the Atlantic that we're tracking that deploys these UFOs. And they go right back to it. And now after that, he said at the end, which is something that stuck with me, notice yourself coming back to this thread. And I swear, every time we get an update from whether it's Congress or we get some, oh, they're in the ocean or the drone flaps or whatever it is, it always leads back to what that guy was saying. So my conviction level, you know, started really low on that. And it's been growing ever since. And so I'd put that into like, into this theory as, okay, if I were to, let's say I have the technology to bounce around the universe at will. Okay. We've established it. It's been building. billions of years our civilization has been around, and I can now blink anywhere I want in the universe. Let's say I have that technology. You would find 100 billion exoplanets that are capable of sustaining life. Yeah. Right. Instantly. Now, because you're so advanced, you wouldn't, potentially, you probably wouldn't even show up to these planets yourself. You would have some

type of von Neumann-esque probe that lands in the oceans, that's buried, sequestered deep into, you know, out of reach that deploys a sort of immune system that the planet has, this sort of white blood cell, that if ever the scales are tipped too far in one direction, it would come out shut down the nukes. It would come out during times of war. It would come out, you know, and then go right back down. Now, these ships would require sometimes, especially for like the genetic stuff that they're probably doing as well, because if you're sort of creating this simulated panspermia, you would have to, you know, not only feed it plant life, but also probably some type of, you know, mammalian life form or all sorts of life form from all

around the universe. So what you would do is you would genetically modify this plant life you got from this planet, bring it over here, you would grab an animal from over here. And you would do this to all the planets, right? So that life thrives everywhere. Right? That's kind of, and so there's so many cases of these aliens they show up and they're grabbing dirt samples. They're grabbing rock samples or there's genetic modifications and then they just leave.

And so I'm thinking maybe this is also just part of the system where it's like this sort of eco-zoo, this biome that they're trying to preserve and maintain. And if you were to do genetic modifications, you might need some type of biological drone in order to do

that. That is part of the system. So now we have these genderless grays taking people, telling them the same things over and over, we're not going to hurt you, proceed to hurt you, show you how bad you are to the planet, and then put you right back in your bed. And, you know, like this kind of like system over and over and over. Now, these ships don't have toilets, they don't have kitchens, they don't have pictures hanging on the wall. Is that just because we haven't from the people who have described them and claim they've been in them, they haven't ever seen those things? I mean, yeah, but you can also look at people like Bob Lazar if you believe what he says, like, you know, it's barren. These things have nothing in them, no controls even. And just seats, you know, although he didn't go on the top floor of this UFO, you know, for him, there was no control area. And then you look at some other cases where people talk about how these beings interact sort of psychically or psionically with the technology. And that without the beings, these crafts can't actually function. these beings are like a part of the craft. They're interacting with like maybe the microtubules in their brain

and to to interact with like this quantum field that, you know, the UFO lives in. I don't know. But that, if I were this system, if I were this like AI system in place and a UFO crash, I wouldn't be too worried because as soon as the being dies, you can't fly the craft anyways. And I think that's what's been happening.

I think a lot of the stuff, if there is recovery stuff, which I believe there is, I think we're just dealing with their tech that we can't do anything with. And that's why they're not too worried about it. Did you know that one in eight Americans are currently prescribed anti-anxiety medications? It is a quiet epidemic that is sweeping the West right now. And people who start on these medications have a very hard time quitting.

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You can go to www.m.m.nicefno.com slash Julian. That link is in my description below. and use code JD22 for 22% off your first order. That's www.m.N.nicefno.com slash Julian. Link in description below and use code JD22 for 22% off. There's, and the problem, though, is that that would signify that they, we are so far behind them, which actually, this isn't a problem.

This would make sense. Now I'm thinking about it. We're so far behind them that it doesn't even matter to them. They're like, oh, oh, oh, they're. got one of our don't care yeah don't don't worry about it the way you describe like just picking up dirt from you know one of a hundred billion exoplanets or something like that and we happen to be that that could make sense even though in our world we're trying to figure out how to fuck to colonize mars just to get people there that they could survive and not die on the fucking place that's right

these guys could be so far ahead that they have a hundred billion marses that they've already made earths well even better than that because if you were trying to uh preserve the seed of human life or the flame, right? The flame of consciousness that we're trying to keep alive. You know, we're trying to be interstellar. We're trying to go to Mars and do all these things. Well, if you had that technology, you wouldn't be looking for barren radioactive rocks, you know, like living underground or in a bubble doesn't sound like a lot of fun. Instead, you would find exoplanists that can already harbor some type of primitive life and then genetically modify it with your own DNA so that you're preserving your seed in these other planets and then just monitor them with your. With your

your system. And every thousand years, you come down in a chariot of fire and you, you know, or a fiery wheel from the sky and you give them metallurgy or you give them religion or you give them, you know, agriculture. And you allow them to sort of, you know, grow as you're just checking up on them. Religion is important to build society. Without religion, we wouldn't have Rome, right? And Rome was like one of the first major, you know, powers of the world. Before that, everything was tribal. Before that, small villages would get together and they were fighting over power and they would never flourish. So it was due to religion that we have modern society today. Like, it's a very important thing that was introduced into our civilization that allowed us to have a bigger

sort of colony with consequences and everything. Now, is religion still, you know, valuable today? That's debatable. But I think at the time, I think it was extremely valuable in order to start civilization. Would they give us religion because they and their advanced civilization, this is a hypothetical question. Sure. In your opinion, they is an advanced civilization experience religion themselves, whatever their version of it is. And so they know the power that that type of thing, like a lower level of it, I guess in this case, can hold over society when you give them complete unknowns because they can't know nearly as much as we, the fucking aliens in this case, no. Yeah, absolutely. Like,

Like, I mean, how do, how do, you know, pets, you know, how do they think? What do they think about us? They might consider us some type of God that can summon food all the time. We don't know that, right? So we know what's best for them. The way that they interpret us, you know, is up to how we present ourselves. Yeah. Because we're just so much more advanced.

So I think if you were to seed the universe, you would need several ingredients. And then I think there's, I think, there's a prime directive, like, kind of like in Star Trek, I think when you reach a certain point, maybe that's not the development of nukes, but maybe that's us throwing the nukes away that becomes like, oh, welcome to the family type deal. You know, the reason I think, another reason to support that it might be a system, at least 50% of it. You know, maybe there are rogue entities coming here that are, you know, that look like giant cats or something. I don't know. But I think for the most part, there is a system we're interacting with. But one of the

reasons I think we're interacting with a system is because it seems like every time we have a war, every time we have any type of strife, we start seeing or foo fighters or what have your flaps over, you know, in D.C. and whatnot. And so, you know, you look at things like perhaps skywatcher and what they're doing. You know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't put it past them to simulate war games out in these ranges with Northrop Grumman, right? The CIA was doing, you know, according to Lou Project Interloper, where they were dragging nukes out in the middle of the ocean to try and, you know, attract these things. If you're an intelligent species, these aren't fish, dude. These aren't fish. Like, so whatever is, you know, if you're blowing stuff up, like,

you look at Skinwalker, right? They're throwing rockets in the air, and that's where the phenomenon shows up. Maybe that's just like some type of response system, some immune response that's like, hey, what are you guys doing? Not necessarily the intelligence behind the AI, but just that like automatic. And we found a way to sort of short circuit that and make them appear through these, you know, through these events. And then on the other side of that, I think, you know, you get people like Chris Bledsoe or even Dorothy Isat in Canada where the opposite happens where like, you know, these psionic assets as well, they claim that beaming out like pure love and whatever will attract them, right? So maybe there's two sides to that. Maybe it's like, oh, if we're bad to each other,

they show up to try and shut it down. But maybe if we start being good to each other, that's where they show up. And they're like, hey, you know, welcome to the family. Like, who knows? You talk to Bledsoe on your show. Yeah. Right. What do you think of that story? I think initially something did happen. I think there are classic, classic marks of an abduction. I do think he was taken. You know, he even says he was taken.

But if you look at the case, there are three other witnesses that saw these glowing orbs. You know, they didn't see him take him or any of that, but they were present during, you know, during the arrival of these things. and were being apparently chased in their pickup trucks by these glowing molten, you know, orbs. And so I do think initially something happened. After that, I think, you know, it's a matter of, it's a matter of taking him at his word,

you know, and as someone who's researching, you know, that's hard for me to just put all my eggs into. I'm open to the idea and I'm happy to shelve that or file that, you know, catalog that information. For instance, the date, you know, April 2027, we're talking to Easter 2020 or 2026, actually. You know, so I'm like, all right, we'll put that in that category. See what happens, right? But I don't think it's, I don't think it's healthy to say I believe or I don't believe. I think that sort of binary thinking is what prevents data collection. I think if we do that, we automatically filter all information, whether we believe or don't believe. We filter the

information that comes through. I'd rather create a space, you know, a safe zone for everybody to speak. Take the information, judgment free, allow them to really tell whatever they want to say and then parse through the information myself over time and hold it up against other connections I might make. Yeah, that's one of the things I like about you. Like you know your shit and you bring in all these different people you've had in all like the biggest names there's still a few more on the list you got to get in i'm sure you'll get them in at some point but like you know you let them go through the whole story you ask them step by step what happened it's like getting it down on documented record and also by the way the production of your show is fucking amazing thanks

like it's incredible but like you also as a fan of this thing you want the truth you want to know all right what are we hearing from the government that's real what seems to be bullshit and like i've seen you comment on some of that some of those things while still like maintaining of like trying not to you know make enemies out of people or do stuff like that which which i think is great but it is a tough job because it's a space where the the unknown unknowns are so fucking vast we're even like beyond hypotheticals to a point there that you are going to run just statistically you're going to run into a lot of stories that are that end up being total bullshit it. Absolutely. You know? And then it's like, is that a part of the plot? Is that a part of the thing where it's like, all right, this is how you poison the well? You throw Jason Sands in there and then people that believe that. It's like, see, hey, look, they'll believe anything. You know what I mean? Could be. Could be. That's absolutely right. And if you were to do that, you don't even need to do that purposely. You know, people do that on their own without even realizing it. I'll take it in the context of like a magic trick, for instance. You're pretty good at that.

Pretty good at that. Yeah. And there's a lot of, there's a lot of correlation between how someone experiences a magic trick versus how they experience the phenomenon. And so, you know, magicians know this, but as soon as you perform to somebody, we kind of stick around. Because what we do during our performances, for the most part, there's a lot of stuff involved, you know, with slight a hand misdirection, showmanship, all this stuff and suggestion and whatnot. But one thing that happens is the engineering of memory is that's the main completely. component of a magic trick, which is why it doesn't always work best on camera. It's always better to do live because looking back, you might be like, oh, there was this little offbeat moment that didn't seem important that I forgot about. Yeah. That's now on camera. And so magicians will take a piece of information that isn't important, right, make it seem really important, and then take a piece of information that is absolutely critical to the magic trick working and dismissing it as if it's nothing, being very flippant about it. So your brain is just going to take the big pieces, but it doesn't have time or storage to remember all the tiny nonsense that we, you know,

threw aside. And so the memory you have instantly of the trick is different than what happened, instantly. And that happens with experiencers as well. It happens with everybody. They're not unique in this in that if I want to tell you what I felt during a magic trick, I will embellish for two reasons. One, I don't want you to think that I'm easily fooled. Right? So I will just round off the edges a little bit more. And I'll think nothing of it. They're like, no, these edges don't really matter. No one's going to notice. And it's just kind of like, no, it didn't make a sound. But you were in your car. How do you know it? It didn't make a sound. No, no, it was, we had the window down. So you'll round off the edges a little bit. And then secondly, you, so firstly,

you don't want to appear foolish. But secondly, I think the more, how do I put the more you experience magic or like the phenomenon like this stuff starts to like your reality is malleable like from the get-go everything we experience your your your sight the sound and everything and so as soon as someone else can have agency over that for you i mean nothing should be taken into account right it's It's not admissible. It shouldn't be admissible in anything. You know, memory is so bad.

And we can, yeah, we can play around with it. So I think for those reasons, I think experiences as well, you know, oh, and here's the second reason, they don't watch, they want you to feel like you were there. That's the other thing, right? So if I'm doing a magic trick, I'm going to try and I'm going to try and say, oh, it was amazing. It was, no, he was this high off the ground when in reality it was like this high, right? but I want you to feel like you were there.

I'm not trying to give you data. I'm trying to give you emotion so that you feel it, right? So an experiencer might do the same thing. They might be like, no, no, no. It was like, the hair was standing up on my head. It's like, well, how do you know that? You can't see your hair? They're trying to re-feel like they were there,

which means it may not be a perfect rendition of it yourself. Yeah, they're trying to make you feel what they felt, which is a human thing to do. It has nothing to do with lying, has nothing to do with being, you know, just not telling the truth. It has everything to do with human connection. Yes. And so, you know, through that, you have to filter the experiences and it's impossible to do so. And so we know there's truth there, but some people might think that, oh, it's a grift.

When in reality, the memory is just so bad from these events. Like, it's so bad. It's not something you can count on. And so we just have to count on the stories and we have to kind of like parse through it ourselves but yeah without name and names have you not even necessarily just on camera but just in in all your years of looking at this and talking to people have you sat with people that are at least known a little bit by others out there not just like a rando on Twitter or something like that but if you sat with someone who's telling you a story and you're just like this is complete bullshit I wouldn't say complete bullshit but But like I said, I think there's, I think there's reason to believe that everyone telling a story, if you've told it more than once, you're making that story better as you go along. You know, from, you know, think of the greatest tales, you know, when you're with your buddies and you're like, oh, I got a story for you.

How does that story compare to when you first, you know, you tweak it a little bit just to get a reaction or to make people feel like they were there or to get a laugh where it got a laugh that one time. You might throw that back in there. Yep. And so I think that's what's happening with these stories. And the longer we wait between the event and the telling of it, I mean, we have to assume the more muddy it gets. But that doesn't mean there wasn't something there initially. And so I think with a lot of experiencers, you know, with Whitley Streber, with Chris Bledsoe, with even Travis. Well, Travis Walton's different a little bit.

Travis Walton, like, doesn't waver at all. He's been one to like, this is it. And he gets quite defensive about any other detail being added on. He makes it very clear that this is what happened. But, you know, you read a lot of books and you kind of like, it becomes subjective a little bit over time. And they start adding things. And not saying it's not true, it's just hard to know. Well, it's human nature like you're saying.

Your explanation is, I mean, it's in line with a lot of things like you'll hear different psychology experts talk about with like eyewitness testimony in court and things like that. like stories people it's not that that they're lying but deep sometimes details will change all the time just based on what reactions are when you're telling it and time passed and like remembering things that weren't there and stuff like that it's just natural to what it is so the balance becomes trying to find the things that are the common thread the things that make sense in one story and then also when you have things like this where it's like people talking about experiences or potentially witnessing a UFO or something like that to where you can line up commonalities across the stories pattern-wise. So you, having Travis Walton in is pretty wild because

I'm naturally very skeptical of a lot of experience or stories. And there's some big names out there that like, in my opinion, like you, and you mention it yourself, like there are some that are just such clear grifters to me that even if there was something that happened at some point in their life, they're so far beyond that that I just don't take anything they take, they say seriously. that said Travis Walton you know he was on Joe Rogan show like six years ago something like that and he's been on some other big shows over the years and this is a story that's 30 40 years old 50 in November 50 years old well yeah damn point being though it down to the fact that his details stay the same and like you said he's strict with it there's something about this one that

even on the surface, though, it sounds crazy. Like, when you watch him tell it, you're like, I don't know if that's exactly what happened goes who the fuck knows. But, like, I know he believes that, number one. And number two, something happened there. Like, like, and just for people out there who aren't, who aren't familiar with this story or forget it, can you just give the broad details of what happened when he was out in the desert there?

Yeah, it was actually in the forest. It was a 1975, November 5th in Snowflake, Arizona. he was a logger like a lumberjack him and six of his buddies including his brother's crew basically were finishing desert sorry yeah my bad Arizona is Arizona I was thinking of that other thing

okay yeah and so yeah they were out there they were finishing their shift they were driving home they all pile up in the truck and they see this light in a clearing it's kind of a weird light pretty bright they you know they drive up to the clearing and notice this giant

UFO, this giant flying disc that's glowing, pulsating, it's got lights around it, it's dazzling. I would say, I think probably like 50 to 80 feet, like a big, you know, pretty big craft. And they all say, let's get the hell out of here. Like, what are we doing? And they're kicking the seat, like drive, go, go, go. Because you have to understand seeing something like that is like Eldridge. It's like, it's earth shattering, right? I don't think you can fathom it.

It shifts your paradigm instantly, you know, it's. It's, you know, ontological shock, whatever you want to use, but it breaks your reality. And so they're like screaming, get the hell out of here. Travis, being really bold and curious, gets out of the truck, approaches the craft, gets really close to it, like really close. Starts hearing a noise as if it's like powering up, like a swell, and then gets hit with like this beam. And everybody who saw him get hit, instantly. they thought he was dead. Right.

They're like, oh, he's dead, let's get out of here. So they book it. They start driving away. Now, they're panicking because they're like, this is crazy.

They actually end up stopping and be like, we got to go back, we got to get him, obviously, and they go back and he's nowhere to be found. They're combing this place and they can't find him.

So they end up going back into town, trying to get their story straight. What do we tell the cops? Right? They get the cops in. Eventually, they tell them the story. The cop now thinks

there's like a murder cover-up. happening like a bad one at that yeah i mean that where else would your head go exactly he's doing his job yeah so you know they went out that night to look they didn't find anything so then the next day again they had like a three-day search party like comb the forest no sign of them whatsoever and now this thing is starting to make like national headlines well five days and six hours later, Travis on some remote pay phone, and he calls his girlfriend and is like, hey, I'm here, but he's like, obviously, they're all distressed, barely talking, very, very shaken up, emaciated, dehydrated, and they pick them up, they bring him home, frenzy of, of a media

starts showing up to his house and trying to get the scoop, obviously. And he ends up being convinced by I think his brother to, you know, do regression, hypnotherapy. And through the regression was able to realize sort of what happened. And what he remembers through that regression is he woke up on a table. Now, this was depicted by Fire in the Sky movie in 1993. D.B. Sweeney plays Travis Walton. They completely butcher this part. So fire in the sky, they make it like a horrific horror movie where he's like, you know, they're drilling stuff in his eyes. I know, it's Hollywood, but they did him dirty on that because they actually cut that part out of the script when they gave him the script. Oh, and then they put it back in. Yeah, I bought the original storyboard or a copy

of the original storyboard and showed it to Travis. And he was like, holy cow, he's like, they never showed me this. Wow. And so he's never seen that. So they purposely like omitted that. That's kind of Fuck. It is. That's Hollywood. Yeah. Did you know that there's an online cannabis company that ships federally legal THC right to your door? And they found a way to combine THC with carefully selected functional ingredients to target nearly every mood and health concern that you can think of? The company I'm talking about is mood.com and their incredible line of functional gummies. Today, you can get 20% off your first order at mood.com using promo code Julian at checkout. That link is in my description below. Forget one size fits all supplements that only get you high. Mood's functional. gummies are optimized to kick in in as little as 15 minutes and take you to the mood you're looking for. Whether that's mind magic gummies for deep work and creativity, PMS support to ease cramps and balance mood swings, or their sexual euphoria gummies to help you feel ready for action and turn every touch into a full body experience. Listen, you can find gummies to just get you high pretty much everywhere these days. But moods functional gummies combine

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Bell Air Direct, insurance, simplified. Conditions apply. So, you know, they wanted that at the time. But I think what happened was way more interesting than that movie. So he wakes up on this table. He sees this bright light. He sees these sort of bulwomen. bulb his heads hovering over him and he, you know, he focuses in. Now, at this point, his brain is

pounding out of his skull. His chest hurts. He literally feels like he's dying. He's in so much pain. He feels like he's dying. And he sees these creatures. They are about four and a half feet tall, four to four and a half feet tall, giant white head. So not your typical grays. They've got big eyes, but they're brown, like sort of hazel colored. And they're wearing orange. sort of loose-fitting orange jumpers. And he's on this table, and now he's freaking out. So he's like, who are you, where am I? He realizes he's not at the hospital, which he thought he was.

And he gets up off this table. His table is low to the ground. The ceiling's pretty low. The air is like musty and humid and hard to breathe, kind of claustrophobic. He reaches on this table and he finds this rod, this clear rod. He says was heavier than glass, but was transparent. And he doesn't know what it was for. He was panicking.

He started swinging it at them. He was like, get away from me, get away. He notices there were other tools, like, you know, sort of windy, metallic tools you don't want to see, you know, type deal. Like they're going to go to it down. Yeah, or, you know, later on he's come to, you know, his thought was that they fixed him. They asked that he got too close. They accidentally, you know, beamed him or something. And then he was left for dead.

And then they revived him. They brought him back. Like, that's what he thought. Because he's like, if they want to. he's like they could have dropped me off on a meteor somewhere in the asteroid belt if they wanted to they didn't have to fix me they have to bring me back so he's swinging at these things these things um what frightened him the most and this is like a wild detail is their facial expressions never changed and he took that as a sign of hostility because if you look at someone

you're going to fight them and they're just like stone cold you know that's like you've got to give me something man you got to give me a smile you got to give me a frown you got to me something or else I'm going to think you know this is weird and we're going to fight and so they weren't giving them anything they were kind of just like you know dull face looking at him and in hindsight he's like if they were telepathic they wouldn't need facial features anymore facial what he's thinking yeah exactly so they leave they scurry out of this room and he's not so he was never like tied down or he was never handcuffed or he has clothes he was on a table I did ask him this question which I thought was really interesting as a detail I never heard before

I asked him if his legs, if his feet were like hanging off the bed, off the table. And he goes, no. So I said, so it's a human-sized table, which I thought was interesting. Wait, if the feet were hanging off the table. Because they're small beings. I mean, the ceiling is low. He had to crouch down. Right, right, right.

Why would the table be human-sized, right? So his feet would be on the ground. Yeah. So that I thought was really interesting. I was like, oh, there's a little factory somewhere, and they're like making human-sized tables, right? Yeah. And so they go out this opening. They kind of scurry away pretty quickly.

He then walks down this windy, narrow hallway, sort of crouched down, and it's turning. Now, you can imagine the fear that he must have that around any of these corners, there might be another one of these things, just waiting to pop out, right? I don't think I can imagine that fear. This is like, so he's walking around this corner thinking I got to look for the way out. I have to find a way out. doesn't know he's in a spaceship, right? He doesn't know where he is. So he's looking for a way out. He gets into this room where all of a sudden, as soon as he walks in, he can see what he says is like a star map. He doesn't know if it was a projection or if it was actual space, but the

entire room that he's in is just space. And there's a chair in the middle of the room. And so he sits in the chair and he starts fiddling with the buttons. He's looking for a door. And all of a sudden, the star map starts shifting around him really quickly without him moving, which is kind of disorienting, and instantly a door opens up behind him. Now, before we get into these beings, the beings that he had just seen, there is another case, if you want to look into it. It is Bill Herman, William Herman, 1968. Oh, I don't know this one. Or 1978, 1978, so it's a few years Yeah, just a few years after. This guy had been taken multiple times, according to him.

He had pictures. He has actually great pictures of UFOs. Like that he took? Yeah, yeah. Of a craft. And it's like tilted out of 45 degrees. Some great pictures. You can pull them up.

All right. Let's get that. And so Bill Herman describes the same beings. White sort of pasty skin, big heads, four and a half feet tall, brown eyes with orange jumpsuits. He describes the same beings wearing the same things, I thought was really interesting. And he was on record in 1978 describing. Yeah, this was three years after Travis, but, you know, prior to any, you know, full publication of his work or his experience.

Got, is that the picture you're talking about? He's got multiple. Yep, those are the ones, which are pretty remarkable. And he released these back then? these were put out by wendell stevens in a book called uh contact from reticulum in i think probably the 70s or 80s right so a long time ago okay that's not like in the last few days sorry in the 80s meaning it's not like some ai picture from no 20 yeah that's film um so you know whether that's real or not i don't know but it looks pretty cool and i like the fact that they're kind of out of focus i think

that's how it would be yeah right especially if there's like some weird repulsion involved. So anyways, Bill Herman describes the same beings, orange jumpsuits, like same physical characteristics, which I thought was really interesting. Yeah, maybe he went to San Quentin. Maybe it's a big sci-op. So anyways, put those beings aside for a second. He's in this big dark room. There's a chair in the middle of the room. And then behind him, a door opens. And he looks, and there's this tall, sort of scanty, Indian-looking gentleman with a sort of straight long hair, but like straight cut, like a like a page boy haircut, super weird. Blue, tight blue jumpsuit, athletic, tall and, you know, blue eyes.

And wearing this is the weird detail, a fishbowl kind of helmet over his head. Now you're thinking, okay, that's where it loses a lot of people. That's your like, was it the Jetsons? What are we talking about here? There's a mid-century alien. There's a case, 1954, Jesse Roastonberg, if you look this up, you can type in Staffordshire, UFO. She's on camera, and she gets pulled out by her two children who are like, Mommy, Mommy, there's a UFO outside.

There's a flying saucer, you know? We wouldn't call it UFO back then, but there's a flying saucer. And she's like, don't be stupid, you know. She comes outside. And sure enough, hanging over her house. is a silver disc kind of like tilted. And she describes it as a Mexican hat-looking thing. She's very sincere in this video.

It's an interview with her. And she goes, the two gentlemen, they're sitting side by side. This is 1954. Two gentlemen are sitting side by side. And they had these page boy Bob haircuts, these blue suits, and what look like fish bulls over their heads. Oh, yeah. And we got a picture of her right there holding up a rendition of that.

fish bowl type, you know, and this is, again, pride of internet. You know, you would have to, what a coincidence that, you know, Travis Walton, days after his traumatic experience would go to some, I don't even know where he would find this interview. Right. You know, or it's a coincidence that they're both tall, blonde figures with fish bowls over their heads. That's what I'm saying. That's a wild coincidence. Yep. So I showed that to Travis. he'd never, I don't think he'd ever heard of that before. So he's a little surprised by that. And then, so this being grabs him, he's thinking to himself like, oh my God, thank goodness, you know, a person. Like there's these creatures over here and he's yelling frantically,

where am I? What are you doing? I'm dying. Like he's yelling. They're just stoic. Don't, you know, stone-faced, don't respond. He's thinking maybe the helmet's interfering with their hearing or something so he's like you know he doesn't know are your ears fucked he's like take the helmet off and and so he this guy grabs Travis by the arm they walk through the door down a platform now they're coming out of the UFO but they're in like a hanger did it feel like a human was grabbing him meaning like when he grabbed him he's strong but it feels like a human it's not like he grabs him and a force field comes over him or something no force field just incredible strength now mind you he was in a weakened state, but he was still mid-20s. He was a boxer. He was a logger. He was on adrenaline.

I mean, strong guy. Yeah. And yeah, just like nothing, just ragdolled him into this, into, they're coming down this ramp coming out of the flying saucer into this quarter of a cylinder as a way he described it, room, massive. Lights that line the ceiling that he thought was like sunlight. He was like, it was like daytime. And he gets there and he sees lined up against the wall. pill or tick-tac-shaped UFOs that are like chromium sort of liquid mercury, as he put it. It's like the bean in Chicago type deal. And they're lining up the walls, joined by two other of these beings, a man and a woman, no helmets this time, jacked, perfect specimens. They had a familial resemblance of like siblings on them.

They're all, you know, and they put them on a bed, and then they put a mask over his mouth. like a triangular mask without a tube or anything and he passed out and that's the last thing he remembers and then he remembers sort of waking up in the street seeing the craft sort of just go up and to a different craft than the one that picked him up or beamed him and yeah that was his experience other than that he doesn't waver like that's that's been his story since day one since he did his regression and so arguably I think we can all agree way more interesting than like scary alien gray aliens oh yeah i mean it's a full process and it's like and then they let them go and that comes back to how many of it if this is true how many other times have they done that why are they

doing that is this again like going back to that kind of simulation thing like oh let's simulate how this little human goes back to the other humans and tries to make sense of this with them yeah and and why are they working together like Travis thinks that maybe the little ones might have been in charge and they sent the big ones in because they looked human and that would not scare him, which I thought is an interesting theory, but also maybe they're just two factions. And they're like, hey, you know,

we hurt this human guy. We don't know what to do with him. And Travis says that he never had a telepathic connection with any of them. And so he thought that whatever they did to him or whatever he was hit with disrupted that, which is why he was able to sort of fight them off, which is why they had to use like analog technology

to, like, sedate him. him rather than anesthetize him through mental, you know, faculties or whatever they, you know, however they do it normally. So he was like kind of in a, maybe an immune state to their siability. Who knows? How did he get put into the regression analysis, psychiatry? Like what was whose idea was that? And when exactly did that happen? I don't think it happened too long after because I think he was so troubled by what had happened to him. Like, he was catatonic. Oh, I can imagine.

He didn't even know what happened to him. He was just, you couldn't talk to him when pressed on like, where were you type deal, he would just shut down. And if you look at the interview that Joe Rogan did with him or you look at the interview that I did with him, he's like kind of happy, go lucky. Yeah. And then as soon as he talks about it, he has a thousand yard stare and he doesn't even look at you in the eye. He's looking at something else. He's like there again. And that's heavy,

man. That's really heavy. You can't fake that. Like, you know, my dad was 30 years in the military and had PTSD, severe PTSD from like multiple tours in Afghanistan and Iraq and all that stuff. And, you know, you can tell. You can't fake that, you know. And so for that alone, whatever it was, he went through. There's a there there. He went through something. Yeah. Really scary. Yeah, and it's like, you don't know, it could, technically, it could have been something entirely different, but like there was something traumatic that happened to him out there and the fact that it then lands on a story that is this detailed and this unique and this, like, fucked up. There's a lot of things at the same time makes it interesting. It's not this one dimensional kind of like, yeah, I saw an alien and it fucked me or, you know, something like that. It's more like, you know, there's steps.

to it there were different ones he's in these different rooms they're looking at him there's cover up too there's like uh that part of the forest like burned down but there were like trees that were actually cut prior that they didn't cut there's like there's a whole lot of shady stuff um one he remember when they dropped him off he does he just remembers being on the ground yeah okay yeah um there's also i think one other witness of the craft initially was a hunter and his wife that hunter was also CIA. Oh, that's nice. So you got to wonder, right?

They're always there. Right? It makes you wonder, like, why does that have to, you know, does that have anything to do with the story? Yeah. So there are all these, like, so many people are quick to dismiss Travis's story based on the idea that they wanted to get out of a logging contract or something. There are better ways to get out of a logging contract. I could think of a few. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. Like, I mean, you don't have to be a mastermind. It's a weird, what a weird way to, you know, make money. Like, none of these guys really profited from any of it. Other than Travis, perhaps, because that's what he does for a living now? Because what are you going to do? You're going to go back to logging now? Like, you know, after that, what do you do?

No, of course, you write a book, you go on tour, you start talking about your story. That's what you do, you know? Yeah, and I think sometimes with some of these people that is, that's something that'll get thrown at. I'm like, oh, you got to monetize the whole thing or whatever. And I understand where that argument comes from, especially with some people who I'll remain unnamed. But at the same time, to your point,

if your entire personal world order is that disrupted in a situation like that, like you describe the ontological shock or like what it means about your place here, not just now on the planet, but you see yourself in a completely different light within the universe because of something that you have had access to that clearly almost no one else gets access to. It's like you can't relate to anyone anymore. He can't sit across from Chris Ramsey and be like, oh, you understand

me, bro. No. You know? It's frustrating, endlessly frustrating for him. Yeah, I can imagine. That, like, people are talking with, like, what ifs all the time? Yes. And he's just got to, like, sit on it and be like, yeah. It's like, if you knew, but I try to see. simulate that in my mind without the alien example, just like in general, if you knew like some crazy secret of the universe, whatever that is. And you knew you couldn't just whip out the proof of it to someone, because that's kind of the whole point. But you knew it. Yeah. Is that enough to not drive you crazy that you know, and who the fuck cares? You know, if other people want to call me crazy for knowing it, fine. Like, is that enough to be secure in yourself that you know? I think,

Yeah, no, absolutely. I don't know. I think it even goes deeper than that with him, too, in that he doesn't want to share his story. It terrifies him. He wishes, to this day, that he never got out of that truck. He's like, I really wish I wish my life would be different. I didn't ask for this life. He didn't want it, you know. And when he's asked to tell his story, he always says, he sticks to a story. And then he always says, you know, if this can help people, then good. If it can help people, you know, that's it. yeah it still creates the and I feel bad about this sometimes but it still creates the problem that a lot of people are going to want to try to get meaning out of their life by creating a reality in their head yep some people are going to straight up lie other people are actually going to start to believe the things they tell themselves yeah and you're going to have all that noise yeah right and you have all that noise of people saying things that well that's bullshit that's bullshit that's bullshit it becomes the the pile of shit that kind of drowns out anything that could be real. Like, I always think of it this way. I fight with Andy Bustamante on here about conspiracies and stuff all the time because he loves to give like the CIA propaganda line of like, well, never, never leave up to conspiracy what can be explained by stupidity. And I always say to him, like, Andy, all right, let's hypothetically say the 99.9% of

conspiracies that are out there that are told are bullshit, which actually, if you look at Twitter now? I'd probably agree with that. Yeah. But that's still a lot. That 0.1% that's a lot of major conspiracies. And that means there is truth there. The law of averages and big numbers says, though, that because you have that 99.9.9 on your side, every time I bring something up, even if it's something like an Epstein, like something that's legit, you can then say, well, this is a part of the 99.9. You can always, it's never a part of the point one. Of course. You know? And I think, I think when like the alien thing, that's on a whole different level because you will hear, I mean, I'll go into these Twitter spaces sometimes and you'll hear someone and I'm just like, well, this is complete bullshit. But then I'm like, well, when are you going to get to one that's not? And then, like, would it all sound like bullshit anyway? Because it's something that I can't even conceive? I don't know. Yeah. And then what do you need for it to be considered not bullshit is the other thing, right? Because- Right. How do I even judge that?

Yeah. So, and, you know, when it comes to disclosure, I don't, I think everybody's road to disclosure is different. I think it's a journey. I think it's, I think it's an ontological shift that happens over time. You know, the more I'm exposed, I'm sure you as well, the more you're exposed to people who are studying the phenomenon or who've experienced things, your meter, you know, sways up and down. But it seems to be like, okay, your conviction level. grows over time and then you start putting your own ontology against that and then at one point when you're given new information like this you have to treat it in one of three ways you have to either ignore it fit it into your worldview like into the current model that everyone's built the one that you've lived with or expand your world view those are the only three choices you have and most people will ignore and fit into their current model a very few people will expand their worldview and let other things in because it's scary and it's meaningless because is I'm going to let all this in and then what?

And then go to work and then, you know, and plan a birthday or like all these like weird things that, you know, are kind of, you know, just so meaningless in the grand scheme of things, you know, how would I function? So I get why people would default to not believing or not wanting to expand their world view, I should say, which is perfectly normal. But I think for a lot of people doing it gradually. is the way to go. I think that's how we get disclosure is through conversation. It's generational. You know, if you look at from the late 40s to now, you know, it's not, it's, that's a couple

generations. Give it another two, three generations. Sure. And this will be, a lot of it will be common sense, hopefully, or at least the notion that we're not alone. Like, let's just, let's just go get there. You know what I mean? Like the size, the sheer size of the unit is so baffling. but yeah but then you look at cases like Travis's if I go back to Travis for a second please and you have to you have to wonder what what in that case would help me believe or what in that case would raise my conviction level I should say that it is real or that he is telling the objective truth and you know one of those things is not only are there multiple witnesses to this they and take this however you want to

take it, but all seven of them passed their lie detector tests, police lie detector tests. That's a big deal. That's like, okay, a lie detector is not a lie detector. It's a stress detector test. Yes. However, that's seven people who are not trained to, you know, sort of fool those machines. The odds are one of them's going to fail if they're not, if they're bullshitting, right? And they're under a lot of stress. They all passed, right? So there's, there's things like that that kind of just raise my conviction level a little bit more. Did they remember, did any of them remember slight details differently of the story? Like not the basic of like, oh, he was hit by a beam in that. So they passed on that. But were there little details

that each one had that were like, oh, this guy was standing over here. So he saw that. This girl was standing over here. So she saw that. I can't tell you, but I would assume so. I would assume there are some like varying details there. But I think the core detail is that they were all terrified of what they saw, you know, and that is. And again, even Travis would say, and he said this, you know, in my interview with him, he's not saying they're from Zeta reticuli, you know, he's not saying they're ultraterrestrial or interdimensional. He's even open to the idea that this is an American military project. Meaning not alien. Yeah, because he's like, there were like human-looking things involved. So he's like, maybe

it's some secret weird project. He's not excluding anything. He's not convinced that it's one thing. He has information. Here's the information. Right. It's up to us as researchers as, you know, to take that information, catalog it and hold it up against the other findings, like those other cases we mentioned, which happened before and after, which are similar, right? I think those things for me raise my conviction a little bit more by a few points. To go back to the first detail of the case, though, just so I understand this, because we talked a lot about the guy with the hair and kind of the bowl cut and the helmet and he was tall and blue eyes and like human looking and strong, the first. four four and a half foot beings that he saw when he woke up on the table how did he describe their heads again they were like large heads large heads big eyes but they weren't black and so again this is uh he'll you know he has no idea why but he thinks maybe because they had this is a good theory

he says maybe because they have big eyes that they're extremely light sensitive right if you have bigger eyes bigger pupils that's more light coming in yeah there you go yeah so maybe uh Maybe there's some type of bioengineered sunglass contact lenses that they throw over so that things aren't as bright. Like, this might be extremely bright for them. You know, living in the darkness of space, perhaps, or the planet they're from,

or whatever tube they're congened in, might be extremely dark, and they would need to protect themselves. You know, who knows? So I thought that was an interesting detail. Wanting to lie, you might, you know, I don't even know if back then, there was a lot of, there wasn't a lot of gray talk, actually.

There was a lot of tall blondes, though. Yeah. The 70s is riddled with that, 75s specifically. Why do you think that is? Why do you think, like, there was a time period where it was riddled with that? I mean, originally had, I think, Dan Frye, 1951. I think maybe before that was George Adamsky, but they both, you know, with Orthon, and they both claim to be contactees in contact with tall, blonde, humanoid.

I think even from Venus or something. It was like, it was the sort of Space Brothers phase lasted from, I would say, the late 40s, maybe early 50s, all the way up until like the mid-70s. And it was like humanoid looking, you know, if you look at Billy Meyer as well and Samyazze and all the contacts that he had, he allegedly had. again they were all tall blonde pleading you know benevolent sort of they would have this message of like oh we need to come together and all this and a lot of stories a lot of stories throughout the year follow follow that sort of being but then it shifts to almost solely like genderless gray robotic you know yeah droid like aliens which i think maybe that's when they were like all right we need a system in place here. This is where

in either one of those cases obviously they're very different in how they're described. This is where like I've really used my imagination and looked at possibilities. Some of that like Michael P. Masters, you know, future humans thing. Yep. Yep. Whatever that would look like, that could make some sense. Yeah, that makes a

lot of sense to me as well. I think it's a great theory. I don't know, you know, I wouldn't hang my hat on it. Yeah. And even Michael says like he's open to other theories too he's not you know people get them wrong as you're the time travel guy he's like i don't care he's like that's just what i found you know i like that he comes at it from like an anthropological perspective like he's a literal anthropologist you know college professor whole bit it's like you have this potential explanation that would also explain how the human race has developed over time with help from you know some sort of like time shift going on it's like

It sounds nuts, but then it's like, you know, some of that could make sense. Yeah, and there's science to back up his claims, which is cool, you know, which is rare in this field. But you have, you know, the cranial morphology of these beings. If you track, you know, our ancestors to us, to them, there's like, it kind of draws a straight line. Yeah. And to the size of their eyes, you know, their arm length, all these different things, all these different features, even the jaw retracting. up into the head. And so I think, yeah, that's really interesting. And then also the idea that if you were to, okay, if we look at how we're progressing as a species, is it sperm counts dropping 1% per year right now? Can we check that deep? It's something like that. It's something

insane, right, where clearly this is a problem that is going to happen. And it's due to all sorts of factors chemicals microplastics whatever you want to yeah we all got microplastics in our fucking balls yeah oh see that study which doubled to over 2% per year after 2000 the trying to subject concern for male fertility and overall health so that's a massive decline in sperm count here yeah and inevitably do the math you know we're not going to be able to have any more uh children that's just the way that line is drawn right there there is an end to that and unless I got to poke one hole in that. Sure. Unless scientific development over time, like we see how IVF has come such a long way.

Now, it's not perfect by the means, but it's way better than it was 20 years ago. Yeah. You know, we are still moving on that exponential like Moore's Law curve of technology. And I do think there are some problems that are red alarm right now, including this, obviously, by the way, it's how we reproduce, that like I don't want to be too much of like the eternal optimist and say, oh, it's all going to be fine. But on some of them, I'm like, I think we're going to be good. Yeah, and we can genetically modify all that stuff. But, you know, it begs the question. Like, obviously, we don't know what effect that has

in five generations. Like, we don't know what effect not doing it naturally has. And maybe there is some effect there, right? We have to assume that any time we inject some chemical that's good for us or some procedure that is ground, you know, breaking and scientific breakthrough, 50 years later, people are growing tumors. You know what I mean? Or stuff happens. That would never happen with Ozympic, right? That can't happen. I don't know. You know what I'm saying? Yes. So, you know, it just seems like the natural process is obviously probably the best way. Nature is really good at optimizing things like that. And so if you were to make a civilization, or at least save your own civilization,

you would want the greatest pool of genetic variants that you could find, right? And the most varied we ever were genetically is in the last 50 years. What's the, I believe that. What's the scientific explanation? Just crossbreeding between different races, different people.

You know, everyone was kind of like in their own little thing, and now everybody's kind of intermingling, having, you know, and so that creates a greater genetic variance. And so if you're looking for an optimal point of genetics that you, or DNA that you need, it would be during that period. It would be during maybe between the 50s and the 2000s, somewhere around there. So if you were a time traveler looking for, you know, the best point in all of history to grab something, it wouldn't be now.

It would have been like during this little pocket. And so maybe that's all we've been seeing is just different, maybe the same species, us, from different points in time coming back. Well, it gets interesting, even when you just look at now, like, forget whether it's future humans or, like, how civilizations have developed. Even with the genetics thing, it's an exterior physical thing, right? Like, we all have the same organs and the same intert. Like, if you rip us all apart, you know, minus the height and whatever, it all looks about the same. Yeah. It's literally, like, scientifically the same.

But then the way we develop on the outside, hair, skin, you know, geometry of features and stuff like that, you go all over the world and it's different in all different places. And some of it, you know, might actually provide like some sort of physical advantage or something. Like there's a reason LeBron James is six foot nine, 250 pounds and like an absolute gazelle out there and you can jump fucking 48 inches, right? I can't do that. Like he has some other physical makeup. to do that and yet we have the same base creation like i always wonder how future civilizations or you know things that aren't from here would come and study that and be like wait they have the same software but the hardware yeah it looks it looks different in asia than it does in fucking you know germany or something like that yeah wasn't there uh i might be mistaken on this but wasn't there um isn't like blonde hair and red hair like completely anomalous like in terms of like showing up because before then it was all sort of like indigenous sort of races and then all of a sudden we have this sort of like Scandinavian look showing up which kind of matches

you know these space brothers you know what right so who came down here and fuck somebody yeah a bit of a mystery that we have that you know because if you look at okay Scandinavian you're like oh they're pale or skin because they live you know in the winter or whatever okay I'm from Canada our First Nations people, they're dark. Right. We got Siberian-type weather. That's right. And they're dark people.

You know, so why are we having blonde hair, blue-eyed, fair-skinned people in these Scandinavian sort of... Because you came and colonized them, Chris. God damn it. But that's what I'm saying. It's like there is a weird, like, I think it is a little anomalous when you look at all the different races. Like we are kind of like interspecies.

but we're also, you know, product obviously of our surroundings. There is some nature there to, you know, like increasing lung capacity if you're living at higher altitude or, you know, certain things like that. But there are also, I think, some, yeah, some, like features that are just anomalous with people, like where they are, why are they like that? This is one like, and it's why Michael Masters is actually a good example because of his anthropology background. It's on theme here.

right but like some of the curiosity of the potential of like life outside of here i wish weren't so stigmatized in a lot of ways because the science of the amazing ship that has happened here to civilization through evolution and all these different developments we've had like as a human race yeah is so cool and still such an untapped area of study that if there is something that makes sense that's from beyond here that plays any role in that, even 1%, the combination of that expertise of, like, you know, getting some expert here to look at this over here and vice versa and kind of like teaming up to figure things out could be,

I mean, I kept an obvious statement, but it's like monumental. You could reach breakthroughs that we've never even considered. 100%. Yeah. Yeah, it's wild. And then to assume it's coming from elsewhere is another thing. You know, the way that I see it is that if, like, what are the odds that these races are also bipedal, have, you know, five, four or five fingers, have front-facing eyes, you know, well, like, the odds of that, I don't think are that great if you look at the vastness of the different types of, like, planets and solar systems. So there has to be some type of link to us.

And so I would assume way before, because if we're here and, you know, I get people's argument like, well, you're traveling all these light years to just come here, you know what I mean? And that kind of seems insane. And I would agree with that. First of all, if you're traveling in a straight line with, you know, regular propulsion, yes, it's insane. But secondly, to me it makes way more sense that they, like, we were sort of genetically modified again. And that they're probably, I mean, probably, I don't know. know, but it's, there seems to be some type of ultra terrestrial presence here.

Ultra terrestrial. Yeah, being like there's like some breakaway civilization or there's something, whether it's deep in the mountains behind the moon, the bottom of the ocean, there seems to be some type of monitoring, monitoring system that has been here for a very long time. And, you know, we see this show up in lots of, if you read all the old, you know, passport to Magonia or all these incredible books by Jacques Valet, where he looks at past cases, you know, in the 1,500, 1600s, even further back to that, thousands of years ago in Japan where, like, they said the stars were dancing. And then was asked, you know, how come that is?

And he said, oh, the wind was really strong. And that was the answer they gave. And they were like, all right? And they kind of just moved on, right? That makes sense. Sounds good. Checks out. So, you know, you have all these tales of like, yeah, things have been going on for a very long time. It doesn't seem like this is an outside thing. But then again, maybe it's both. Maybe it's both. Like, why would it just be us and them? That's what I'm talking about.

You know? Like, why can't you combine it? Well, if it's, for me, it's insane to think it's just us in the universe. Obviously, it's not just us in the universe. But if it's just us and then just them, I think that's more insane. I think it's either just us or everything, right? If it's just two of us in the whole universe, like that to me sounds more insane yes than just being alone in the universe one of one of the

Hollywood scenes that sticks in my head yeah more than any other that was hold on men in black which one the at the end the end shot with the pool with the yeah the marble or whatever yeah yeah yeah when every time I think about that just like the ball and then the other ball and then the big ball and then the big balls and then fucking they're playing with it and I'm like why would that not make sense have you ever looked at the cells in our body as above So below, man.

I mean, holy shit. It's like, Joe, can you actually pull this up? This is a good parallel. It's like in some ways, like a non-sequitur, but it'll make sense, I think, to you. Can you pull up map of Rome of the Roman Empire veins, like the word veins, run coursing through you? I don't know if it'll be on Google. It was on Twitter.

I wish I'd save this. Yeah, first one. Yep, that's it. Wow. Look at the pattern of how Roman. built. Now think of, neither of us are doctors, but think about the human body that we know that we see a picture of. Or a, yeah. Exactly. Yeah, of course. And like, why would that not be the same thing with some sort of pattern at the cellular level that then also explains the

universe the same way that every fucking thing in the world down to Picasso's art is technically math. It's numbers. Definitely, definitely, yeah. I agree with that. I think to a certain level, I think, you know, I don't think we have reality figured out at all. I do, I tend to think that consciousness isn't a byproduct of our brain. I do think it's fundamental. Can you explain that? So, yeah, the idea that like consciousness, if you look at, you know, regular physics and regular science tells us that our brain creates reality.

So it's because of our brain that we are conscious. It's because of our brain that things exist, that we see them, right? Because of our brain, we perceive it. But, you know, the sort of fringe parapsychological route or the sort of fringe science is that, and I think we'll be accepted as main science one day, is that consciousness is fundamental. So consciousness exists, and it's because consciousness exists that this is here. So if you take like the double slit experiment, for instance, I know it's a terrible thing to quote if you're not a physicist like myself, but it shows us that observation changes something. I think that itself is a really crazy thing to say and admit as a scientist. As a quantum physicist, you have to admit that observing something changes its state.

from wave to particle. It changes fundamentally what it is just by observing it. Yeah. Now, if I get that wrong, maybe, you know, roast me in the comments, but I think that's like the gist of it, right? And that's all you need to really understand that, okay, what I'm observing isn't what reality is. It's different if I observe it or if I don't observe it.

So I think, you know, you can go down crazy rabbit holes with this stuff. I mean, you could go to the multiverse rabbit hole with that one. You could, but all that might all just be sort of in the desktop, might not be outside the computer at all, right? I do think that if, you know, if you look at quantum mechanics, it's kind of removed from space and time, right? That's kind of how it functions. Weirdly enough, like even Einstein's called it spooky, you know.

this idea of quantum entanglement that two photons, you know, separated by an infinite distance will instantly switch if one is charged positive, I think, and then the other one goes negative, like instantly from like a crazy, yeah, from a crazy distance. So just that alone, you're not beholden to space, therefore time is also, so does that mean you can also change that photon in time?

time, you know, because time and space are linked. So, you know, does that mean that everything is just happening all at once and that the only reason we perceive it otherwise is the brain? We've also only accepted time as we know it, which is constant and moving forward, right? That's right. We're born and at some point we die, which means time move from A to B and a lot of shit maybe happens in between. But when you start to think about even the small, and I think that's all it is, is the small scientific understandings we even have of time now, including like time dilation. What was the name of that experiment again? Do you remember that where they put the watch up into space and went around the earth? And it came back at a different time. Yeah, that was to prove

Einstein's theory of relativity. Yeah. Yeah, I forget what that one was. I talked about it with Lawrence Krauss back in episode 180. I can't remember what the name of it was, but it's real. Yeah. And then like the extrapolated kind of Hollywood example that injects a, yeah, there it is. the Heffelli Keating experiment, I just want to read this for people to have the understanding, the Heffle Keating experiment was a test of the theory of relativity in 1971, Joseph Heffle, it might be Hafele, a physicist, and Richard E. Keating, an astronomer took four cesium beam atomic clocks aboard commercial airliners. They flew twice around the world, first eastward, then westward, and compared the clocks in motion to stationary clocks to the United States Naval

Observatory. When reunited, the three sets of clocks were found to disagree with one another, and the differences were consistent with the predictions of special and general relativity. Meaning it's exactly what it sounds like people. And which happened after Einstein died, right? Yes. Which is wild. Yeah.

Isn't that? Yeah. That's a while after he died too, I think, right? Yeah. Like his general and special relativity wasn't accepted while he was alive. I think that's an insane thing. Isn't that like a tragedy? Yeah, for him.

Yeah. I mean, obviously like we have his legacy now, but it's like imagine like being... People forget. People forget how fringe quantum physics was, you know, prior to World War II. It was, you know, when Neil's Bohr and all these guys were, you know, an Oppenheimer, were, you know, playing around with this idea. They were outcast. They were literally like, you're crazy, you're insane. The same way we're treating a lot of people looking into parapsychology, you know, and I think there's something to be said there. I think that- Can you explain parapsychology to people? Yeah, just the, you know, studying sci, studying psychic ability. There's places like the, you know, The Ryan Institute, places like Stanford Research Institute, the Parasicological Labs at Princeton, all these places are researching, you know, the minds or the consciousness's effect on the physical world and, you know, how we can interact with that. They're doing random number generator tests, which are really interesting, which is like these ones and zeros. Basically, it's like a

server that just goes from ones, that produces a bunch of ones and zeros. And if you play it long enough, it'll just be like 50-50. Okay. And they're having people essentially focus on either the ones or the zeros, and they're able to skew to a higher point than standard deviation, the ones onto one side or the zero's onto another side, right? So you're affecting on a very small scale physical reality through conscious interaction. You anchor them in a way.

Yeah, you're changing a little bit. And so they have these machines run. there's these servers. I think you can even sign up your own computer for one of these services to be a part of these servers. But essentially, the biggest spike they've ever had was at 9-11. That was the biggest spike they've ever had. They've ever recorded was at 9-11. They had a huge spike. How do they explain that? Yeah. Yeah. How do they explain that? So they just know that like somehow that effect, whatever happened there, I mean, you have to assume that it's probably tied to, you know, obviously human consciousness, global consciousness,

perhaps. There's this crazy study that they did, too, where they had 5,000 people meditate and the crime rate lowered significantly during those three weeks. If you can look that up, 5,000 people meditated for three weeks, and they did this twice. They did a follow-up with 3,000 people in the Washington area, and crime rate dropped by like 15%. And hospital civilizations dropped like a lot of these they meditated on world peace now they did this once they did it once with 5,000 and another time with 3,000 okay so they did too different it was a it was a fluke so they did it again and it worked again yeah yeah see this is the problem we call shit crazy and maybe something is but you can't know something's crazy unless you actually continually test the theory that's what life is

supposed to be i don't why do we demonize this well because any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, right? So anytime we have something that reaches further than our comprehension of it, we think it's paranormal, right? And we give it this taboo sort of sticker of, you know, this is magic. It's a, no, it's a psychological phenomenon. No, you're hallucinating. No, it's, and we're trying to fit into the world that we already know. And it's just until someone brave enough, you know, smashes down those borders, whether it's Einstein or whether it's, you know, people working in parapsychology, I think you have to push boundaries, especially if you're hitting a wall, you know, like we are with quantum physics. We have no unifying theory. No. Between, you know,

the practical classical physics and the quantum realm. And so there are people who are trying to study that, but those people are, every theory that comes out is, if it doesn't line up with relativity, it's kind of thrown out the window. And it's creating. creating these, and this is like kind of related, but it's also creating these factions within science, too, where you have like the string theory people. Yeah. The people are like, wait, what if that's not the base and we got to get a new bait, you know what I mean? Science. Yeah. Scientism. Yeah. I like that. I like that's what it feels like we're, you know, we're kind of like trying. And that stuff's been going on forever, forever, forever. Anytime we came up with something groundbreaking, that's what we were up against. It's no different today. Like, I don't want to be one of those people who the minute. I hear some new crazy ideas like, oh, yeah, that's going to work. Let's check it. I don't want to be that. But I do want to be the guy.

It's like, hmm, tell me more about that. How can we test this? What is the proper way to put that through some sort of whatever, scientific method? Yeah. To determine if we can get to some level of truth that warrants more experimentation on it. And so you talk about like these, I guess, like experiments they're happening with psionics and stuff. You know, we saw one even mainstream, go main, at least like, to people last year with the whole telepathy tapes thing.

Yeah. You know what I mean? And there were so many people who even before listening to that just shut it down. Of course. We're like no fucking way. And I'm not saying these kids, these autistic kids are telepathic. Yeah. But like if you actually listen to it and look at the double blind experiments they did all over

the world, it's compelling. And you have to at least say, even if it's not that, there's some sort of they're there. So let's learn. There might be. There might be. Yeah. I like that. Even say there might be. You know, like, let's learn more about that instead of just dismissing it when in fact, like we don't, we have it as accepted science that something like a savon exists. Yeah. It's accepted science. And we don't even know how savants are made. We don't know how it's made. Some fucking kid can come out and play Beethoven and fucking do algebra out of his ass. And it's like, oh, yeah, that's normal. Yeah. But then you say, hey, I think some nonverbal autistics might be able to communicate with. each other, blasphemy. It's like, how do these, how is this the same world? Yeah. You know what I mean? Well, there are, there are ways to explain some of what was, um, talked about or observed during the telepathy tapes. There are ways to explain that as a magician, right? And so, but just because I can explain it as a magician, how would you explain as a magician? Well, it depends on,

depends on the, uh, the example. But rest assured that it's a magician's job to do the impossible, right? So magicians are tasked with the impossible. That's what they do. That's, you know, every magician you've ever seen on TV has consultants. And those consultants are other magicians that they work with to create the illusions that are presented on TV. Yes. They work together in this sort of, you know, this sort of little group to come up with, you know, whatever the illusion is, whatever the task is. And we are always given the, like, let's say the effect, which we call the effect, the trick.

and we have to reverse engineer how to do that, right? So that's our job. Our job is to make the impossible happen. The job is, okay, we have to have this guy disappear. Okay, how do you want him to disappear while he's walking? While he's walking. Broad daylight, yes, broad daylight. What else?

We want him to disappear gradually. We want it to look like he's fading out of existence. Okay, all right. So that's what we're dealing with. And now we go through the rolodex of methods that we have, whether that's psychological methods. Are we filming this? Are we not filming this? we go through all of the stagecraft illusion that we have we go through the misdirection maybe

suggestion do we use hypnosis here do we use so there's all do we use uh camera stuff like there's all these methods that are available that've been around for 600 years as long as your performative magic has been around and uh we have to use that to try and create the impossible so that being said if you tell me hey can you do what they're doing yes as a magician i can fake that. That's a magician's job. It would be insulting to a magician to think you can't because go watch any magic show and you go, that's impossible. That's the whole point. Would that assume that some of the double-blind science, scientists that they brought in and psychiatrists would have to be in on it as well? No, but it would mean that they're, they can be fooled. Right? And I'm not saying

that the people are purposely trying to fool them, but maybe there is some subtle, you know, things at play. I don't know. I have to be skeptical when it comes to this stuff. I know that Dr. Diane Hensey-Powell is doing great work studying this stuff. I think she's doing phenomenal work, and I applaud her, and I want her to

succeed in this. I think it's really important what she's doing. That being said, she's not immune to being fooled. You know, neither are people from Stanford. You know, I've performed for rooms filled with 300 engineers, whose whole job it is to, like, engineer things, you know? And I

sit here and I, okay, I graduated high school. That's all I did. But I learned magic for 20 years, you know, and I can fool the pants off the smartest guy in the room. It doesn't make me smarter than them. I just know things that they don't know. We have secrets. We have ways to do things. And so, you know, I always, I would always vouch for if you're going to study anything in the parapsychological realm, get a magician to make sure the variables are met. Because we have methods that we can't share publicly that would make these tests possible, right? So I could go into a psychic competition, perhaps, and just, like, I could train someone to go into one of these psychic competitions and win, the whole thing, right?

In front of doctors. Slate a hand in a way. Well, they're methods. I won't go into them, but yeah, I could absolutely. You know, when you look at a guy like O's Perlman, right, or any of these like mentalists, you know, they'll be the first to tell you what they're doing isn't psychic. You know, there's trickery. They're doing. You see some of Perlman stuff and you're like, bro. Yeah, but ask him. He'll never tell you it's an ability he was born with or anything. No, it's, it's magic tricks. How does he? Well, he does it very well. I can't tell you how. You know, that's just like the code of the magician. But, you know, As magicians, we look at other people, we look at the performance. I look at O's and I go, oh, wow, he did a good job doing this. Or he did, oh, that was really nice subtlety he used over here when he said these things.

Or when he, you know, we respect each other in that way. But when it comes to methods, like, we can't share that with, you know, lay people. That's just not, or else magic, you know, wouldn't be around. So we have to hold that close to the heart. But when I see tests being done, you know, let's say with blindfolds or, you know, there's hundreds of books written on how to work with blindfolds as magicians. This goes back, you know, to vaudeville days. It goes back even prior to that where, you know, they would do Q&A's back in 1907.

This guy, Alexander, he would have this act where, and this guy was the richest performer back that. He was a millionaire back in like the early 1900s. He performed for shakes and, you know, just royalty all the time. And his whole act, which is probably getting canceled today, but he'd wear this big turban. and he was dressed up like a you know like some back in the day some fakir or something right this is what they did and a lot of these guys a lot of these guys like i mean it was really questionable oh the magicians are you know they'd come back from the from the orient you know and all of a sudden

they're you know they their eyes look different yeah yeah and so and so you know they and they dress up and they would live whole lives like there was i think there's a list of like 30 magicians that changed their names from like you know Rosenberg to like Chungling Sue and like one guy's literal name was I think like Ching Chong like that is like I'm like you guys are insane like back then like that's you know so they would come back from the Orient and bring the mysteries and like sell out of theaters here right that's what they did but this guy Alexander had this big turban and essentially he was using an early precursor to Bluetooth technology he had it was like coils in his giant turbine and it was like why wire down through the ground, through the carpet that he was sitting on, and then would send signals to backstage. Come on. They were able to talk to him backstage and go through like the Q&A that people would, you know,

and they'd be like, oh, blah, blah, blah. And he could hear it. Yeah. Same thing that Popoff was doing when he got caught by James Randy on that late show, right? He was, Peter Popoff was like, you know, this, this, you would sell out arenas of like, oh, I'll heal you. Oh, you got, you know, power of God. And he would tell you your address.

and he would like, oh, it's like a magic trick. I'm going to pull the demon out of you. Amazing Randy, you know, he came out on live TV on a late show. I think it was on, what's his name, Johnny Carson, and basically intercepted the frequency that his wife was talking to him and feeding him information and then played it for everybody. And they were like, whoa, what? So he got his career, you know, took a big hit.

But magicians would do this sort of ethic. you know, we'll do it as a means of entertainment. But just to show you that back in 1907, this stuff was going on with magicians. That's how far ahead magicians are when it comes to methods. Like, people have no idea. Like, there are things that magicians have access to that don't become readily available. Now, it's catching up a little bit, but I've played with technology that isn't out yet due to magic inventing it for magic, right?

So there's a lot of that. There's a lot of that. So rest assured that like when you see, you know, tests being done as a magician, I'm thinking how I would do that using those conditions. And I'll find a way using tech, using this, using that, using maybe, you know, all these different techniques, slight of hand, misdirection, showmanship, suggestion, all that. And so now I'm not saying that the children in the telepathy tapes are, you know, not psychic, right? It's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying that having magicians present, I think, is valuable to testing this stuff because then you can know for sure. Because ask any magician, you can ask O's Perlman, you can ask any mentalist, what they think of the telepathy tapes. A lot of these guys are very skeptical because they just know too much. So it's hard for them to get over that hump. So use them. Let's use them

to create variables. That's good. We need people to push back on that. Absolutely. And then have these, you know, have these tests done under those conditions buddy I will I am the biggest champion for it

but I will be an even bigger champion for all that stuff I don't know you know like Oz doing the the mental stuff

is a you know that's one realm of being a magician there's a lot of different realms I don't know

what the fuck his tricks are there though dude like the ones that get me are when he goes to the NFL

teams and it's a room of fucking 53 guys on the roster and 25 coaches and you just see it in succession for five minutes he picks out random people

and the shit that he'll get like once in a while you'll see when I'm like all right maybe he could have figured out the draft order there or something but then you'll see other ones like what they had

for breakfast that morning and I'm just I'm thinking how could he do it at all these different teams and never get one wrong and yet we don't believe he's psychic right

see I don't but I'm also like what the fuck is going on there, bro. Who are you? Yeah. Um, yeah. Do, like, I mean, you're a magician. So when you watch him, do you know? We watch it differently, for sure. We watch it from a different perspective. Like I said, we're, as magicians, we're kind of focused more, um, on like patter or presentation or, oh, that's an interesting twist he did on that or like, like, we'll look at like technically, like, how to appreciate something, which is how an artist appreciates their own art form.

where everyone else will be dazzled by the colors, you know, an artist might think of, you know, the specific brush they use theirs. That was an interesting choice of brush, you know. So just kind of the same thing, yeah. How did you, like, what drew you to magic? And how young were you? I was, I mean, I was always interested.

I think young boys specifically, it seems to be, are more prone to, I don't know, we're fascinated by, like, hidden identities as children. Every young man can, can, you know, attest to this. Like, you want it to be a spy or a superhero or a magician or a ninja. Or you want to cover your face and, like, you hop around in the dark and, like, do, like, these are things that we love. We love gadgets.

We love, you know, you know, so we, we kind of all have that within us. And I just never really grew out of it. I was always just kind of, like, dabbling with it constantly. And then I started working at a bar when I was like 19. And that's where I started using it to get tip and, you know, bring people together, get people talking. Oh, that's a great tool for that. And, you know, you're doing it under low lighting, loud music, drunk people. So you can get away with a lot of stuff.

Oh, yeah. Great play to hone the craft, really. And did that for a few years and started booking gigs after that. And so, yeah. You were telling me that when you grew up, you were born in Germany. This was off camera. Your dad was in the Canadian military for a lot of years. I think you mentioned that on camera as well. But you lived in, you went to 10 different schools or something. So you were constantly traveling and getting thrown into new environments. Do you think that part of like the interest in magic was like kind of shaped from you having to learn to entertain people around you and constantly get put in new situations? Yeah, definitely. Definitely has a lot to do with that. I think breaking the ice was a big. thing for me, you know, starting over again, again, again. I remember thinking to myself, and this epiphany I had when I was like grade eight, you know, after like really kind of being

cheesied at my parents from moving again. I was like, come on, you know what I mean, pre-internet, no way to talk to your friends, right? And so starting over, I'd went to a school previously where I was like heavily bullied for like the whole year. And then when we moved, I went to this new school and all of a sudden I was a cool kid. Oh, that's true. And I didn't change anything about myself, right? And so I thought, wait, it isn't me. I'm like, what, what is this factor? Like, why does that, why, how did that happen, right? And so it was then I realized, oh, I can decide who I am and I can just do that. I can do that now. In fact, we can all do that. Right now, you can change exactly who you are if you so decide right now. You are a confident person.

You are that, whatever you decide. You think you can flip it like that? I think everybody can. I think that's a, I think we're suppressed and think we don't have that ability. But if you want to, you can change who you are. Now, you might not see the change right away or it might be hard, but the decision to change is immediate, right? And so you can just do that. You can be like, today I'm hyper religious or today I'm, I speak Spanish and just go and start there, right? You have that ability. And so it clicked within me at a young age that I was like, oh, I decide, you know, how people

see me. But do you think part of that was you were you were getting dropped into new crowds so there wasn't a previous expectation and I'll give you like like an example of this because I see what you're saying. Like a clean slate. Yeah. Yeah. Like when you meet someone for the first time, right? And it doesn't go right. The wires get crossed. Yeah. And then you see that person around in different friend groups or whatever over time. Yeah. Those wires have a way you're you're made. Both of you are married to those wires like even if you both would be best friends or get along whatever like the wires getting crossed once got it tangled and you like can't get out of that pattern so even if over you know a five-year period you're around this person and you change a lot as a person or they and they change a lot as a

person and you know like things that were weaknesses back then are now strengths for both of you you still have that like meeting point of like this was where you were socially compared to me and this is where I was socially compared to you, such that you lock it in your head that like, this is just what it is forever. So it's not, maybe you can change around new settings, but the idea of like changing in the same setting, that one's harder for me to get with. Yeah, but it's not changing who you are immediately, but it's having the decision to change who you are immediately, right? And that's, I think, the key. So like, for instance, if you wanted to start going to the gym, right, that's a decision you have to make. You have to be like, I'm that guy.

right i'm the guy who goes to the gym every day right and you can make that decision in the same environment that you're in now right yeah i've done it yeah exactly so those are major changes that's a major change that changes who you are fundamentally as a person that you can just do that right and so it's that realization that like oh i can just be that guy oh i can be the guy that knows everything about history oh i can be that guy that can be me boom done and i'm reading books and i'm on the internet i'm passionate about whatever and i'm learning about this new passion right you can decide whatever you wanted to do. It's partially, I think the reason

why I got into creating Area 52 was that I've always had this interest and I've always been fascinated by this stuff. Yeah, I was going to ask you, how young did that start? Since watching fire in the sky when I was nine years old. Yeah, I remember, you know, the disclaimer,

this is based on a true story. And I was like, what are you telling me? Aliens are real. Parents are telling me aliens are real. And so I've always had a fascination. And then, yeah, I was doing this other channel, this magic. and puzzles that I had built.

This other channel is like fucking 10 million subscribers. Yeah, at least 7 million. Whatever. It's a lot. Yeah, it is a lot. And it was a lot of work to get there. It was a lot of fun. And I found myself just being unhappy at what I was creating and felt like I was just feeding the

machine. Really? Yeah, yeah. I didn't feel I was going through depressions. I was like, ugh. Why did you feel like, because you're doing what you love? Like you're creating what is magic. Yeah.

Right? Yeah, I started doing what I love. Like, I love magic. It's the, I guess what happens is after a while, you know, have you ever read The Alchemist? I have read that book, yeah, I think everybody's read that book, right? It's a pretty basic book, but it's a great, yeah, exactly, great lesson in that book where, you know, I think eventually if you're, you know, if you're not listening to what the language of the world or whatever the signs are showing you, and you start pursuing things. that are shiny or start getting sort of, you know, distracted by the shinier things and stop listening to that voice.

Yes. That voice that makes you creative, that voice that makes you passionate, that keeps you going, that puts the fire in you, if you stop listening to that, eventually it starts going away, right? And that voice brought you everything. That voice got you everything, got you to where you are, right? Got you everything. And so eventually you're surrounded by everything.

You're surrounded by money, by all the things you've ever wanted, by all the success. Like all the, you've just shattered all the benchmarks that you've set for yourself. And you start getting, you know, you start buying things. You start doing things. You start, like, collecting things. You start. And then you're not hearing that voice anymore because you're so fixated on maintaining that and trying to upkeep that. And then that voice goes away and you're just surrounded by all this stuff.

And you go, wait a second, why do I feel this way? why do I not want any of this? Why do I not really care about this stuff? What am I doing this for? And that voice goes away, right? And then you're kind of scrambling, and then you're wondering, how am I depressed if I'm surrounded by all this? And I have all the money and I have all the success and fame that I've ever wanted.

Why am I not happy? And so I had to, like, listen to that thing again, right? And so that thing was pulling me in a direction creatively that I was already sort of doing on the side. I was like, you know, filming things more cinematically, storyboarding, more, you know, a friend of mine, we had like a tiny podcast. We like shoot the shit, like comedy podcast type deal, but I always talk about aliens. And I was like, man, I think this is, I think this is kind of a calling. And as I shifted, I just noticed I went full into it this time. And, you know, you see the success come.

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eligible RBC card to your Petro points. Find out more at RBC.com slash Petro dash Canada. Conditions apply. From that, from that voice, right? From that vision, from that passion, the success will come if you're not worried about it. Yeah. And so, yeah, I think that that's what got me into here. It's just I needed to chase something again. I needed to feel like I was starting over, maybe. that's and it's actually like it's a good story for people to hear because you started off doing the very thing that you would always loved and you built it into not just like a career but you were famous from it and like from the outside looking in people are like wow he gets to do what he loves and he's famous from it but what people don't see from the outside is that i'm talking about the magic part now before you got to area 52 it's like all the things off camera that weren't there at the beginning, grew and metastasize, based on what you're telling me, over time, to the point that the percentage of you actually doing the part that involves love and, like, you know, your pride and what you do became so small. Yeah. Compared to everything else that it's like

you can't even, you can't even get joy out of it because it's a blip in your day. Yeah. In a lot of ways. And I understand that. And I think looking, looking on the outside, outside and a lot of other people in all different spaces. You can see, maybe not the moment, but you can see where over time the Rubicon gets crossed with people where they become this thing. Right? And it sounds like you never became that. You had self-awareness of like, I don't like this. Like, what the fuck am I doing? But other people, they never get that self-awareness. They see all the money. They see all the fame. And like, it goes from this pure creative, no one watching it, whatever it is. like genius to you know all right i have a hard stop at five and make sure you know what i mean

and it and it turns into this fucking corporation this upkeep this this machine you got to feed yeah yeah and that to me is always such a tragedy to see it's something i think about a lot because i started this in my parents house with a backwards hat no money and no previous fame of any kind or anything to fucking stand on and the only difference now is i have my own place in hoboken right we're we're over five and a half years in and it has the same energy that it had at the beginning. And I don't even have like, you know, we have Dief and a lesson. We don't have a team of like 30 people or something like that. So it's very bootstrapped.

And to me, it's like no matter how much this grows, it's something I've always checked on myself and want to check on myself moving forward. It's like how much are we still just purely doing this? Yeah. Right? This needs to, in fact, we have the conversation off camera all the time now, how to try to get rid of things that I got to do so that it can just be this pure. thing right here and we can ride that. But it's easier said than done, man. You know what I mean?

Like there's everyone out there, you guys can relate to it. People that work at companies or run their own businesses or something like that. There's bullshit that comes in. And then personal life comes in as well. And you got to, you know, there's no textbook on how to handle all this stuff. No, I agree. Yeah. You know, people ask me too, like, because you know, you hear the term grifter a lot in this space, which is, oh yeah, which is, you know, I get it. Um, but when aimed at me, I think it's kind of humorous because I'm like, I'm not here pretending that I'm doing this for the greater good of humanity.

You know, this isn't, that's not my bag. That's not my bag. No, no, I'm doing it out of an incredible, I'm doing it completely selfishly to feed my own creativity. That's it. That's like my number one reason is to fend off living,

a life where I'm unhappy. And so I know for myself, and based on, you know, my childhood bouncing around a lot, I need change. I need new. I need, like, fresh creative spark constantly. You're an artist. Yeah. And so I'm constantly trying to now make sure that whatever I'm creating, that I'm doing it out of a place that feeds my creative, selfish needs. And then secondly, would be to get to the truth, right? So first, first is just creativity, just fun telling stories, hearing things, making, you know, cool shit. Then secondly is, oh, I can answer some really cool questions and talk to some really interesting people. And then thirdly is make money to pay my bills, to pay the employees that work for me. You know what I mean? And the offset of all that

is that it does help some people. That's the, for me, that's the side effect of that, which is why I have a hard time accepting any praise when it comes to that stuff. Like when people are like, dude, you changed my life with that video or whatever, right? I'm like, I, that's awesome, not what I meant to do. Yeah. Right? And I got to be honest with that. Like, I'd never set out for that.

And I don't want to pretend that I'm like, and I'm just like, oh, I'm so grateful. You know, like, it wasn't my goal. And I'm glad that it did that for you. I think that's awesome that it did that for you. And thank you for telling me. But I could never accept that as a compliment because it's not even in my top three things. You know, inspiring you was an offset of my own selfish creative passion. You know, it was a symptom of what I do.

And that's awesome. I love that that's the symptom. But I'm not, I'm going to keep it real that, like, I do this for me because I love it, you know. Yeah, it comes across, man. I don't think you can fake curiosity. Yeah. Right? If you do, it's very easy for the average person's bullshit meter to go off when that happens

and you're genuinely extremely curious and interested in the space. in, I also don't think you can fake trying to hide showmanship and trying to, you know, play off what you're really trying to do, which is maybe you see a space to go to just to make dollars and cents, which to your point, we see a lot of people in a space like this, and there's a lot of spaces like this on the internet where that's exactly what they're doing. And again, you can tell. Exactly. I think people's average bullshit meter on that is really, really good. But like, you know, it's also interesting that you have that that like exterior lens of being a magician to evaluate a space like this when you talk to the people you do because like it or not there's ways just

as you describe with the telepathy tapes i don't i don't think it's a lot different with some of the stories that you cover like on your show to where you can kind of maybe pick out a slate of hand moment or like a wait no i would have done that you know i would have done that like that so you you have like another layer to look at it to try to get to where that truth is that's pretty fascinating yeah and it's uh it's important not to judge people based on that i think and that's become something that i've had to really uh look at too it's can you explain that more yeah most most magicians specifically like magic is a thing where it's it's uh you know you can start off you know being told that you know, oh, magic is real and God is real and all this, like, really like when you're a child.

And then as soon as you learn magic, you become like atheist, you become skeptical. You become like a lot of, like most magicians are extreme, at least at least at one point, become extremely atheist and skeptical of everything. Yeah, because you're given a secret knowledge, right? You're told something that explains everything, right? Whether it's psychological manipulation, whether it's like all these different. different illusions, you know, you can explain everything through magic. That doesn't mean that's the reason, but you can explain it. It fits everything. You know, you come to me with, oh, you know, I saw this, I saw that. There's a, there's some niche psychological, you know, phenomenon that explains whatever happened to you. Or a combination of the atmosphere at a certain time of day with the planet. There, you know, there are methods to everything, but that doesn't mean that that's the reason. And so it's been, it's been, it's been a journey for me as a magician to, you know, start off.

I was, I was raised Catholic, you know, taught all this, all these things are real and whatnot. Oh, you were. Yeah, but it wasn't really practicing, just kind of like innately bought into it. Yeah. And then as I learned magic and I got deeper into magic, I suddenly became aware of all these amazing methods to things. and I just looked at religion differently now. Now I'm like, I went to, I remember going to a baptism and being like, why is that guy wearing like gold and like, well, he's got a big hat and he's holding a scepter

and they're like, they got the smoke now and they're bathing the child in the chalice. And I'm like, this is all performative, weird, like psychological, you know, reinforcement of their ideals. And I'd start thinking like a magician when I'm looking at this now. I'm just seeing a magician. I'm seeing a guy who goes, home, you know, and troll somebody on the internet and watch his favorite show and he eats Cheetos. But then he gets dressed up in this golden robe and has this scepter and says all

these words. This is how I'm seeing it now. I'm seeing like a magician, right? And I start seeing all the things. And so as you do that, you start becoming skeptical, nihilist, even kind of cynical. Yeah. And most magicians stop there. That's a line. It's a straight line. It's from there to there. And at the age of 20, 22, you figured out life. And that's most magicians, sadly. And, uh, yeah, it's kind of dangerous, though, no, to, yeah, to have the, even though you have a great skill to assume you've figured out the most wildest, unfigurable questions by age 20. I was a fucking moron at 22. You know what I mean? And if you want, if you want a more practical example, look at people who learn like physics or mathematics or like

really, really smart people, they have a harder time of broadening their worldview because they're held so high in a position of knowledge compared to everyone else, right? If you look at Neil deGrasse Tyson, you know, I think he's done great things to get people interested and curious, but, you know, you're also capping what you know because you not knowing something says something about how smart you are right it says it signals to people that oh maybe he's not so smart so he has to know everything right and so magicians are kind of the same way in that they they they kind of think they know everything always and so for me it's been a bit of a journey to realize that it's okay to say i don't know and i'm willing to listen and and try and figure it out but at the same time

to the original point if i'm talking to somebody and i clearly see a few tells that um there's something else under the surface or something doesn't match up or it doesn't add up. I have to be able to put that aside. You have to put that aside. Yeah, because I don't want to, I, I'm aware that people make mistakes, people lie, people do, but that doesn't mean, that doesn't explain what happened, right? And just like a magic trick, just because I can give you a method for something, that doesn't mean that that's what's at play here.

and that's that's the real thing that's really hard for a lot of magicians a lot of people who know a lot of things to get over just because you have an explanation for something that doesn't mean that's the explanation right there could be something you're not thinking of what you are talking about right now is actually identifying the most commonly understood problem in society at large these days which is that people a subset of people and they tend to be the loudest people get the most attention potential especially online have convinced themselves in the world that everything needs to be zero or a hundred. And what you are talking about is the nuance of things. Yeah. Which means not everything's right, not everything is right, not everything's wrong. There is no right or wrong. There's no right or wrong. There is none, yeah.

How do you know what's right or wrong in a hundred years from now, whatever decision you made, you know? There's a, it's a, you know, if you look at like hermeticism is really interesting, I think, because you go like the seven laws, the seven hermetic principles. and one of them is there are no opposites. There are just varying degrees of the same thing. And that, I think, is really interesting. Like, if you look at, like, heat and cold, like, we see this binary sort of heat and cold thing, but it's just something vibrating faster or slower. It's the same thing.

It's just vibrating at different rates, right? So there is no difference. It's just a varying degree of the same thing. And so I think there's a lot, I think we have to treat most things that way. is like look at things. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

I think, I think, you know, obviously I think there are maybe things that are objective to us, you know, to our ability to perceive things. But I also think that, yeah, there are things that just we have to understand. Like, we're smart enough to understand that we don't know everything. Why do we act like we do? You know, it's like we should, we should be able to suspend anything in favor of just data entry. Yes.

you know yeah i'm with that because like if you take those things to extremes if i walked outside right now and some guy i've never met before there's no idea who i am walks up to me and blows my brains out like you know obviously yeah i would say that's that that's wrong right on a right wrong scale but you don't want to throw to your point you don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water here and then start to apply that black or white scenario to fucking everything you listen to especially when, you know, with the things we're talking about today, you may be dealing with things that are completely unknown to the scientific universe or that have elements that could explain something that's previously been unexplainable, but not all of it can

explain it. You know what I mean? You have to leave that room for interpretation open. It sounds like that's what you've gotten pretty good at doing with the content you cover now because you have to. You have to. Yeah. You ever hear that like Taoist sort of story about the guy that, you know, the farmer whose kid breaks his leg. No. So, like, you know, he's a farmer and he, like, he loses his horse, right? And then the neighbor comes, he goes, oh, that's bad, you know? And he goes, eh, there's no good.

Don't really. There's no, you know. And it's like, oh, okay. And then enters, like, a draft and whatever and, like, wins a horse, right? Enteres like a raffle and wins a horse. And the neighbor comes, yeah, it's good. And he's like, oh, it's no good or bad. It's whatever, you know?

And then, and then the son, you know, hops up on the horse. now that he has a horse and he falls off and he breaks his leg and he goes oh it's bad you know and the guy goes no not really like I mean there's no there's no good or bad and then you know the the war comes along and now they're they're doing conscription but he's got a broken leg so he can't be conscripted into the war and so it's oh that's good he goes nah don't really how do you know what's good or bad right so it's this idea that like we we we say labels of good and bad and everything's like but it's just varying we don't know we don't know enough to know if something's good or bad. We don't know what effect that has on anything. So it's really a subjective

opinion, you know, on whether something is good or bad. It's based on, so there's no real measuring of anything. It's all about feelings, right? And so it's better to just act as though it's all just data. It's all just interesting. Yeah, it's all just really interesting stuff. And you can package it any way you want it as a joke, as a entertaining story or as like a horrific incident or whatever and I'll just take it all the same and process it, you know, that way and just see what comes out of it, see what kind of connections we can find or, you know. But if you, like, there's so many people, I'm sure you're thinking of these people too, where you go, they're like, oh, what are you working on? And you go, but no matter what you say, they go, oh, yeah, right,

nah, that's not for me, right? Like that, I'm sorry, like, that I do, like, please stop me if I'm ever that person like anything anything at all i never want to be that person that completely dismisses something right upon hearing a sound bite you know i'm like that's such that's a detriment to humanity to to to everything man like we have to learn to just shut up and listen for a second you know and just who care just because you listen to something doesn't mean you have to believe it doesn't mean you have to not believe it that's right you can you can have your own opinion about it i think to do the job you and I do. And obviously, like, you're more in one topic. I do a lot of different things. But what we have in common is we got to sit down with people and talk to them for a long

time and try to understand where they're coming from. Like, you're going to walk away from someone and be like, yeah, I don't really agree with any of that. But you have to hear it out. You have to actually get that data to understand that and be able to make an educated personal decision on it. And, you know, this is the other thing that's kind of the problem with our world. It just because you think it and I'm not saying there's something wrong with opinions, but just because you think it doesn't mean you need to fucking tell everyone about it. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like there's there's a time to do it and there's a time to non. Your guess sometimes is as good as mine. But, you know, we kind of live in this world where

people, the instant they think something. Yeah. Right. And that's not healthy to me. Like I don't, 99.9% of the tweets I write don't get sent. Yeah. there's a very good reason for that you know i have very small twitter follow because of it but i'm cool with that yeah because i see what happens to people when they reinforce you know this need to have to give their opinion on things over and over again they become someone else i've seen it happen for i've been on twitter since 2010 i think i've seen it happen forever and like there's something about that type of technology that like our consciousness to bring it back to that has not fully integrated with yet and understood yeah what that does that

to our worldview like people talk about it including some people who are stuck in these loops and then they don't even realize they're stuck in the loop it's crazy i'm like oh i wouldn't want to be there but you're always stepping out like all right i'm not there on anything am i you know what i mean you got that like paranoia like am i stuck in this loop with this thing because you know what i mean yeah and it usually has to do that specifically with people it's never events or ideas right It's always people, so that's always been my sort of, or at least, you know, recently has been my threshold of, like, what not to engage with. And if it's about a person, I don't engage.

Yeah. It's drama. It's awesome. Whatever it is. It's just not worthy of discussion, I think. I think it's not worth it. But if it's events, I'm like, oh, that's interesting. And now it's ideas, oh, here we go.

Let's talk about that. Yeah, we can play with that. ideas are fun to talk about you were talking about religion though a few minutes ago and like you grew up catholic and then when you started to get some of the magic skills and you would see the things that just like slate a hand almost like you're like what the fuck is that you know you lose that but like what let's just start here do you believe it all comes from you believe there's like a god or something um i don't know uh i think i'm a little agnostic when it comes to that stuff but um I do, you know, I've, I had some, I've had some experiences myself, which, you know, for my own ontology, kind of help, you know, fill in some possible gaps, but.

What kind of experiences? Like, I had, I made a whole docu-series on leaving the body, like, an astral project, like, out-of-the-body experiences. And this is something, again, that I would not be comfortable talking about if it hadn't happened to me, right? It's not, I'd be kind of embarrassed to talk about if it wasn't true. Like, I mean, I'm kind of embarrassed to talk about it as a magician, right? Because I know the inherent skepticism that people have, but, and rightfully so. But I did this, it's like with anything, I just want to kind of like, I want to study things myself. I don't, I don't want to hear somebody's opinion and then base my whole view of reality on that.

Like, that's insane. Yeah. To me, that's insane. To me, it's insane when you listen to a smart person and go, that's me now. Every single thing. Yep. Like, oh, newest smartest guy. I said the newest smart thing.

That's me. Yep. You know, that's insane. That's insanity to me. I think it's more sane to like just make up your own reality than to like listen to the newest best thing all the time. But that being said, I had a friend of mine, Nelson Delis, he's a U.S. memory champion, six-time memory champion. amazing dude and i'd hit him up because i'd wanted to learn like how to make like mind palaces and stuff and like memory stuff to like memorize decks of cars to help me with magic and so he taught

me we became friends started doing the memory stuff and then one day he goes uh he's like you've ever heard a remote viewing and i go i go uh yeah i think so i was like back in the day it was like a psychic spy thing and men who stare at goats type deal and he goes uh he's like yeah he's like I was recruited to learn remote viewing to play the stock market for some hedge fund. To learn remote viewing. Yeah, I go, what? He's like, yeah, I was like on a Facebook group, they hit me up and they're like, anybody want to make money?

And he's like, sure, I'm down for like whatever. And for an hour a day for a month, he was taught how to do CRV controlled remote viewing by this agency that was hired by this hedge fund. And they wanted to train a memory person specifically because they thought he has a really good visual memory. Maybe he's a better remote viewer. And so he'd remote view the stock market, Bitcoin, basically, for them. And it's a weird. It's called associative remote viewing, which is like you're remote viewing a target.

And then you're given, there's two targets and whatever target you're closer to is, has like an up or a down, let's say, behind it. yeah and then that'll determine what the stock you know do we go up do we go down here that's simple basically essentially is like is the idea and uh they're very successful with it you know and that's where i was like hold on a second we're putting money behind psychic ability now i'm like that now i'm interested because that's an objective you know uh way to measure whether or not this psychic stuff is real is let's put money on it yeah and uh so i started looking down and this is actually what started the Area 52 channel was I started documenting this I was like can you teach me so I spent a year doing it with him like every day I'd remove you I'd have sessions I documented this whole thing

take me in there what what would happen um so basically he would have a target which is a photo that he would keep secret and he would attach like a six digit number to that target and it has nothing to do there's nothing you can deem from that number that would give you any clue of what the target is it's just a random but on a quantum level i don't even know there would be some type of entanglement between this number now and this target they would be linked and so you would get this number you write that number down and now you'd start your controlled remote viewing now you'd go down describing the dimensions the sound the texture the feel the size the temperature of it and then you would draw things then you would have this whole thing and you would do this and after you're done

you would open the envelope and compare to see if you got close. So it's fun to do, and sometimes it was terrible. You're like, oh, there's no way. This is stupid. But you feel stupid every time, by the way. As you're doing it, you're like, gosh, stupid. As you're doing it, you're like, yes, I feel it, right? And right as you're about to open the envelope, you're like,

what is this is obviously not going to match? What am I doing? And but sometimes, man, sometimes it matched so closely. See, we're torturing some prisoners in Guantan out from your mind. We'll get into that. Not discussing people. So,

so anyways, I would have these matches were like, undeniable. You know, it could be anything. It could be, I could be removed you in a bumblebee, right? Or a bicycle next to a abandoned building. Would you know where it was?

No, nothing. You get nothing. You just, it could be. No, I know, but like when you're matching it, is it like, is that a bumblebee that's floating in fucking New York City? No idea. No idea.

You just get a picture, right? So, and then you'd base your stuff on that. And sometimes it was like, oh, I'm getting like sulfuric, hot, flowing, red rock, red cliff, dusty. And, you know, there's something, there's some flowing here, there's heat. And then it was a volcano, right? So you're like, oh, well, that couldn't really been anything else. You know, and everything that I wrote down matched the target. So I was like, damn, that's pretty cool.

So I went down that rabbit hole ended up speaking and spending time with Joe McMonigle, who is remote viewer 0-01 for Stargate. Yeah, I saw you did an episode with him. Yeah. You know, spent time with him, spent time with Dr. Edwin May, who was the chief research physicist at SRI,

Stanford Research Institute. So they were the guys who were contracted by, you know, the government to study the stuff. What do you think of McMonicle? And can you tell people, like, his full background? Yeah. He's known as Remote Viewer, 001, which is the first accepted remote viewer that they hired in the Psychic Spy program in the 70s during Project Stargate. CIA.

Yeah, CIA. It was DIA. It was different departments of the DOD used them. So it wasn't just CIA. And prior to that, there was Project Sunstreak. They had Grill Flame, Center Lane. These were all psychic projects that were. prior to Stargate. Stargate was just one of them. And basically what they did is they had this

guy, Ingo Swan, who is a natural psychic in air quotes, come up. He was a really good gifted remote viewer. Okay. Objectively really accurate, a lot of remote viewing stuff. So they said, okay, can you develop a system that we can teach soldiers to do this for intelligence collection? So CIA and all these different departments in intelligence, you know, they rely heavily on signals intelligence or, you know, whether that's like signals or satellite or human intelligence or all these different things. This would just be another sort of, quote unquote, constellation for them to bring in information. And so they're like, and they heard the Russians were doing it. So they were like, we always got to copy the Russians. We might as well try.

And if it's costing a. piece of paper and a pencil, you know, why not? And so they had this done. They had this little system down. They tested 600 people. Out of these 600 people, there were mental level geniuses. There were Stanford alumni, intelligence people, army people, civilians, natural psychics. And out of these 600, only six of them. So one percent showed significant talent. And that one of those was Joe McMonigle. And so he had five, I think five first, first place matches out of six during his tests, which is unheard of. So essentially, a fourth place match is if the target is a bumblebee, and I draw and

describe this coaster. Okay, fourth place match. Yeah, nowhere near it. Not great. A third place match might be if this coaster was fuzzy and black and yellow, but still a coaster. Now you're like, oh, a third place match. That's kind of cool. a second place match might be if I drew a wasp right or a hornet and a first place match is if you drew a bumblebee and described a bumblebee and could lay the photo over he got five first place matches out of six that's pretty crazy it's insane and when you look at some of the tests that he did and the results and he was also an artist so he's very accurate with his drawings they weren't subjective they weren't these nebulous you know blobs of like I guess that could

be a kind of like a kettle or something? No, they were like artist renditions. They were amazing. And so they used him for years, for 20 years that we know of, right? During these programs, he was used to find a general that was kidnapped. General Dozier in Italy. He was kidnapped by some like rebel force. And he found where he was, how many guards were there. And it was thanks to him that they actually found this American General and they saved him. And there's documents. Yeah, there's documents. This is all.

Say, like, that's crazy. It's like, you hear this and my first thought is, come on. And then, like... They found a tracker in the pocket calculator hidden on a spy because of him. They found downed aircraft. They found things in the ocean, like recovered aircraft in the ocean, thanks to him. Aircraft. Yeah, like jets.

Yeah, yeah. We got it in a podcast. like this we got to ask yeah they used him for like UFO stuff too he told me a story about that but he doesn't like those targets uh very much because no he just doesn't like it because they're unverifiable so like okay i can describe a UFO or whatever but he's like there's no way to verify that the target was that right so it's like it's just up in the air it was it accurate was it not accurate we don't know um but they used him to find a lot of nuclear bases too like new like places where they had like nuclear missiles.

They were very accurate with that stuff. In fact, so here's a crazy stat. In the 20 years that Stargate was around, there was 19 intelligence agencies. 17 out of the 19 agencies came back to Stargate for new missions. Right? So if you're running a restaurant, 19 people show up. And then the second day, 17 of those 19 show up.

It's pretty good food. That's pretty good food. Yeah. 505 individual missions over 20 years between the 17 out of the 19 agencies. In a program that they, big air quotes here, allegedly shut down at the end. Yeah, and that they said didn't work. Right. Well, the Joint Task Force came back 142 times, just the Joint Task Force, 142 times.

And Joe and Dr. Edwin May, they both said that the Joint Task Force, what they would do is they would interstate. a lot of drug smuggling coming in on boats using remote viewing. That's why they came back 142 times. I feel like Eric Prince is using some of this right now to blow up some fucking Haitian drug lords. I mean, if it worked that well, why wouldn't you use it? Right? And again, the thing that people need to understand about remote viewing, because I know a lot of people are rolling their eyes right now, and they're like, how can you perceive something, you know, at a distance or away from space and time non-locally. How is that accurate? Well, the way intelligence works is that they will never use a single source of intelligence to track something down or to strike

or to, they will always use multiple points, right? So they'll use a satellite photo. They'll use people on the ground, an agent there. They'll use radar signals detecting the radar moved over here and they have, oh, they have this type of radar, which means they probably have missiles there. Like, they have all these other things. This was just another thing. So sometimes they would have, boom, boom, boom. We think the hostages are here because we have this, this, this, this.

They wouldn't tell this to the remote viewers. Because these are all top secret missions, the remote viewers wouldn't know 95% of the targets. They would never even know afterwards because they were classified targets. So the agency, whether it's the CIA or the FBI or the, Joint Task Force, they would simply give the target to the Stargate Taskers, or not even the taskers, just some people at Stargate. The taskers would then hold on to it. They would give the number, or the person would hold on to it. They would give the number to the tasker. So the

tasker doesn't know what the target is. And the tasker would then do the session with a remote viewer, so it's double blind. Even the tasker doesn't know. And so they do their session. they then take that session, give it back to the Joint Task Force and never see it again. And the Joint Task Force came back 142 times doing that. So you have to assume that something worked, right? So they're getting perhaps, you know, if they're looking for a nuclear base and then they're getting like some drawing of like a nuclear silo in a building that looks the same as their signals intelligence is telling them as their satellite imagery, then they have

have to go okay maybe there is something here yes now they had to do this for a um an oversight committee year after year to prove to them that remote viewing is real so that they'd renew the budget so joe mcmonigle went into skiffs doing remote viewing sessions uh and they would be like all right approved here you go good good to renew for another year and it wasn't until somebody because i think one of the mk ultra programs killed themselves on lSD that like it blew up and people found out about Stargate and then said, what are you guys doing over there in General Stubblebine? So they publicly shut it down

and said, this stuff never worked. And I was all poor shit. I just changed the name, flipped around the file, said don't worry about that old Charles Manson thing. Obviously, yeah. So, yeah, needless to say, Joe McMonagall is like the LeBron James of remote viewing.

He looks a little different, but yeah. Yeah, yeah. But he is, though. And what they found out, here's what's interesting. And I'll get to the out-of-body stuff in a second. Take good time, bro. We got it all day. What they found was interesting. And this is something that not a lot of people talk about.

But Dr. May, the six people, the 1% that had undeniable talent in remote viewing, they found them to also have synesthesia. Oh, where they had, whoa. Yeah. So they could, like, you know, perceive colors of sounds. Yeah, all sorts of different. The brain's wired differently. But all six of them. so now they have something to look for all six of them had that and they were doing all sorts

of wild tests with remote viewing that's also so that's just so i understand correctly that's just like an added nice component because i i don't have a percentage for you or anything especially off the top of my head i don't know but there's people that i have aspects of that right like there's i and i talk to people who have that right so you're saying this is just like an like another like correlation possibly equaling causation type element. Absolutely. It seems like it seems like everybody has some

latent sort of talent for remote viewing but there are people like LeBron James who are just better at basketball. I can shoot hoops. Won't make it to the NBA. Same deal with remote viewing. I think what we're seeing is that people who do have synesthesia seem to have some pre

existing aptitude And there's something There's also Well these children from the telepathy tapes Also A lot of them have synesthesia So that's where it starts to get interesting

Yes Yes But this is also where it's way above my pay grade Because it can also have to do with I'll just call it very high level here So the doctors don't get mad to be But certain functionality within the brain You know

That's like literally biological different or they have something extra. And this was one place, like, I've had Lou in here twice when he was in here for episode 237 the first time. We only talked about the remote viewing in like the last eight minutes that episode. It was like a three hour, 20 minute episode. So it's like we didn't get to do like the full gamut. But like when you read his book and then hear him talk about it, that was one place where even off camera, I was like, you're making this sound way simpler than it is. You know, like the way he seemed to describe it, and I don't know if this was like his intention.

Then he was saying, like, well, it was kind of my intention. So you'd be the judge of that. But it was almost like, yeah, anyone can do it. Yeah. You just fucking go in a room and do it. And like, then I hear you talk about talking to your friend and being like, oh, this is something interesting to learn. And you go in and do it.

And I started to think, maybe. But then the bullshit meter in me goes, no. But then, like, you can actually test it. Like, did you actually draw what's in an envelope? And then if you did, it's like, well, shit, there's got to be something there. That's right. Yeah, there's something. But you're also a magician.

Yeah, exactly. And that's why I know that, like, there is a big bias. There's absolute bias that you have to get out of the way when you're looking at a session and you're looking at the target. You know, if you're evaluating your own session, you have to get that, you know, confirmation bias. For sure. So I would score all, like, I think my highest score that I ever scored myself was like a six on ten. And that's when, like, I matched up, like, with, like, pretty good. You know, I gave myself a six and ten because I'm like, I understand confirmation.

bias. But I've seen results. Nelson, his, I mean, one of his first ones, and that's usually the way it goes. Like at first you have like the best sessions you've ever had. And then it drops down to like, you're so far. And then you kind of come back. It has something to do with like expectation, ego or whatnot. But he drew like a literal whale breaching out of the water. And that's what the target was. He described it like blubber, uh, falling gelatinous, uh, life form breaching water and he drew fins on it and it was literally that and you're like what are the odds of that that's pretty insane so when you see yeah when you see things like that you go and then you see the next session it's completely wrong and then you're like oh or it's like at least you know okay

kind to see how you can fit that but when you see ones that are like really strong you go man really like there seems to be something there so yeah they did all sorts of tests they tested whether or not this was a frequency a frequency uh because a lot of people think It's like a radio that you tune in to like something. So they went in a submarine like 600 feet, you know, underwater and did remote viewing tests worked almost even better because of the isolation, you know, because they were just like so focused down there. So we know it's not a frequency.

They didn't take them in that fucking Titanic sub, did they? Maybe. That's what they were doing on there. And then they tested something really interesting. And this is a working theory. I think that Dr. May is. working on right now, entropy has a lot to do with determining, like, the accuracy of a target. So if there is a higher rate of entropy at a target, they will get better results, more accurate

results. And that speaks to the brains or the minds or the consciousness's ability to detect change. like we are hardwired to detect change that's what we do like for instance if you do you know the gansfeld experiment remind me you'd put headphones on and play a frequency and then put like cut ping pong balls in half put them on your eyeballs and shine red light and after about 10 15 minutes you wouldn't see red anymore you'd see black and you wouldn't hear the frequency anymore you'd grow accustomed it's like being in a house that stinks yes you don't know until you walk in that's right so same type of thing our brains are hardwired to detect change and when there's no change it's kind of invisible right it adapts quickly exactly so a rock would be much harder to a remote view

than a nuclear installation um because a nuclear installation in this quantum realm yeah is has entropy is creating it's so what they would do is they would actually go to these target sites this is so interesting. They would pour liquid nitrogen at the target sites and that would yield more accurate results for the remote viewing session, which is kind of nuts. So you're like, oh, wait, there's an actual. And so that's why these nuclear sites were actually easier for the remote viewers to find or these missile silos or missing children or people that were being threatened like in a hostage situation. That was way easier to remove you than the lottery. Right. So, So it's almost on a survival basis that we have this.

And that's what Joe really believes is that these abilities, we used to have them a lot more, like the most powerful people in the villages weren't the strongest. They were the most psychic, right? Those were the most revered. We'd go to them and ask them for guidance. And they would tell us, you know, water is over there or don't go there at night. Predators will get you. And that helped us survive to some extent, maybe.

and so that's kind of their research is kind of based on that like these are instinctive abilities that we just don't really need anymore and maybe that's why and but we still have them like if somebody pulls a gun on you right yeah yeah you kind of have like you can see ahead or you can like know what they're thinking for a split second even gsp the fighter i had him on the podcast oh yeah yeah you've been hanging out with him yeah that's really cool yeah it's super cool and he he says that too he's like during fights he's like i don't know if it's precognitive or if it's deductive. I don't know if when somebody's throwing a punch at me,

sometimes when all the adrenaline's there and high stress levels, he knows what the opponent's going to do and he can just move out of the way and, like, it's nothing. And he goes, I don't know if that's deductive from training, you know, because of all the thousands of hours, or if he gets into this type of flow state and he's precognitively like maybe microseconds has this like reaction because he knows what's going to happen so it's an interesting that is interesting yeah i would actually on that

one as a total outsider looking in at that i would lean towards more it's probably deductive because those guys think about like the 10,000 hours theory yeah yeah he's put on probably 30 000 hours of this and his whole you know what i mean like he's and when you're fighting even when you're just training and rolling around and stuff like those guys go at it bro you're going at it when you're a kid doing that and you're constant like there's a form of simulated survival mode every time you do that and i think it's actually like harkening back to some of our like when you really look at like the brilliant jiu jitsu guys and stuff like that m mma guys like it harkens back to some of our basic evolutionary wirings that we have like

they like rebirth it in the modern era and again like they've been training in this stuff since they were kids but absolutely i do i don't want to say it's not possible yeah that there could be something predictive there like where you can feel it i mean a good example might even be remember when when ali dodged like 37 punches in a row or whatever yeah you're watching that and yes that is like a lifetime of training but there is also something there where like he knew when the hand was here that it was going to end at this point and when that hand was here it was going to end at this point and he knew that 37 times in a row sometimes you just know too like um whatever it was i don't know how many it was a lot of times yeah it's a crazy clip yeah um you know i had to talk about this

uh i was doing a lot of research into this but mixed mediumship is something that happens Yeah, it's a term coined by Eric Wargo. He has a book called Time Loops, and it's really interesting. But the idea is that magicians, we encounter sometimes what seems to be real magic. And magicians are reluctant to talk about it in that way, because they'll chalk it up to coincidence. but I've I've looked into it quite a bit what's interesting is you'll be in a type of flow state

and a type of like I can't say anything wrong everything I do is right it's bop bop bop as a magician you're performing and like nothing can go wrong everything's going my way everybody's kind of like just believes that you can do it and there's this energy and then you start trying just stupid risky shit as a magician you will And you can have Oz on here, and he's a big skeptic, he'll tell you, yeah, that happens.

And what he'll also tell you, what most magicians will also tell you, is that those risks, they pay off more than they should. They pay off compared to the times that they shouldn't pay off. They pay off way more. Why? So that's the question. Is it precognitive? Is it retrocausal? Is it some field that we're tapping into?

And what is it? what is that? But it does happen a lot. So what I did is I reached out to my group of magicians that I know. So like I had like 200 magicians write to me and tell me a miracle that happened to them while performing. Some, you know, fun, you know, miracle that. A miracle. Yeah, like a miracle. Because as a magician, we don't let the audience know when something goes our way that wasn't supposed to happen. We'll just go, ta-da. right? Because we're the magician, right? It's supposed to be amazing. That's what it, that's the magic looks like. That looks like. Exactly. Exactly. And every magician does this. Every magician. And so I had them write, you know, and I have all these amazing stories. And I, I, on the magic channel that I have, I put a documentary recently, I went to Spain. Jesse Michaels was there with me. And he got to, he got to witness some of this stuff. And, you know, they told me all sorts of stories that are just the most, like, there's no explanation. for that and we don't tell anybody about it except other magicians you know we'll never tell a lay

person oh my god that wasn't supposed to happen yeah you know we'll tell each other though we'll go dude you believe this shit shit what happened yesterday dude i'm telling you like um example i had a i was in bermuda with some pals were doing magic at a bar just hanging out like this group comes over and they're like oh you guys are magicians show it's a trick i was like yeah sure i was like do you have your phone she goes yeah so uh i was like put your phone on the on the bar at this point i have her pass code um i will tell you how i have her pass code but rest assured i have her pass code she doesn't know i have her pass code how the fuck do you get her pass code well there's many ways to get a pass code but um i have a pass code so now as a magician i'm looking like all right how do i reveal

this right that's where magic comes in it's not just i just don't go boop boop boop boop that's impressive but i'm a magician i want to play this up i want to try to like play with things that are happening around, try to make it a little more magical, right? That's the reveal. So I had this information and I'm thinking to myself, right, how do I do this? I can look at a receipt maybe or look at like, you know, try to find the numbers matching somewhere. I know it's a personal number, probably a birthday of some type because it's 10, 12. And I'm thinking to myself, okay, it's probably like 10th of December, 12th of October. And, you know, like women usually go for like a personal number. And a lot of times that's a date guys we usually do patterns like one two three four or two or same number

type deal right or like we'll do the cross or like corners or like we'll do some pattern but not always but sometimes but i have the number so i'm thinking to myself okay it's probably this so i go um i want to spice it up a bit and i go i'm not going to open your phone he is and i point to the bartender i was like i'm over here and now i'm thinking to myself whatever i'll have enough in my repertoire to where if this doesn't work i'll figure something out i don't know what I'm going to do if it doesn't work, but I'll figure it out. I know that, right? So I'm very confident. I call it a misplaced confidence, like stupid confidence. I have no business being this confident about what's about to happen. And I go, go ahead and put in four numbers, random four

numbers. He puts in four numbers, doesn't open. Everybody's like, everybody kind of, there's like a , oh, he ain't got it. Yeah, yeah. Stress moment. That kind of like, everybody kind of like, oh, my God, that would have been sick, right? And I say, yeah, that would have been a miracle. But I see, You know, one day that might work. And then I say, I think the number is more personal, though, if I'm not mistaken. Now I'm doing some warm reading because I already have some information. She's like, oh, it is, you know. But you already knew the code.

I already knew the code. I know it's a personal number because it's 10-12. And it's like that feels like a date, right? So I'm like, I think it's a personal number. And I go, let's try this. Why don't you put in your passcode? Just, again, if it doesn't work, whatever. We'll figure it out.

He puts in his passcode. phone opens. Now, my friends, my magician friends are looking at me like, what trick is this? Right? Because they're confused. So is an act. Because they know what trick I'm doing and they know, you know, and then they go, well, hold on. So I go, I take it a step further. They're freaking out. And I go, I think you guys have the same birthday. What day were you born? And it goes 12th of October, 12th of October, 12th of October. And they both start freaking out as if I made that happen. What though? Right? So what are the odds? I calculated like one in a hundred million. And you keep a poker face when you're doing this? You weren't like, what are you kidding me? This is the trick of a lifetime, dude. I hope they never see another magic trick in their life. I hope they're not watching this. Yeah. Still, still magical, right? It's still synchronous, still beautiful. So, you know, something like, and here's a funny thing. I was in Spain with Jesse

and I was telling this, because I was talking about mixed mediumship. Here's where it gets meta and weird And it's already meta and weird, Chris. Fuck, man. I'm sitting at a table with a magician friend of mine, Juan Colas. He's an amazing Spanish magician. And I'm talking about mixed mediumship because I'm about to make this video, which he's featured in. And I'm asking him about a miracle that he's performed at.

And, you know, I'm, so I explained to him this story. The same one I just told you is a few weeks ago. I'm not even lying. He goes like this. His phone's on the table and he goes, open my phone. and I go, what do you mean? And he goes, open my phone. And I go, no fucking way.

1-0-1-2, his phone opens. Dude, I'm telling you. And I, okay, I know you're thinking he's a magician, maybe he changes pass-code. He's not that type of magician. He's not, no, he's not a pass-code magician guy. He doesn't give it. He's like, he's like a hippie. He's got dreads and he's all like, he does contact juggling and stuff.

He's like a dope dude. His phone was there. And he goes, and I swear, and I'm like, dude, This is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm like, this is what I'm talking about. And so it's this mixed mediumship, this weird coincidence that happens. And I had a friend of mine who is a comic and he does like crowdwork. And he goes, dude, I know what you're talking about.

Because like during crowdwork sometimes, I'll just guess people's jobs. And I'll be like, oh. Because he's in the moment and he's just kind of like, as a joke, he'll be like, bam. And then, you know, coincidences will start happening. it's this weird thing. So I don't know what that is, but I think there's something maybe there. Maybe we're collapsing waves intentionally

through this flow state. Who knows? What's my pass code? I don't know. No idea. Six digits, though, right? No. Four?

I do the old school film. Oh, okay. Well, maybe we'll do it later. How would you figure that out? I'm not Os Perlman. What the fuck? Like, that's, yeah, that I shit. What did he do with Joe Rogan?

he figured out like his bank account yeah fucking number and then he figured out another number or something with it like the backup or something it gets weird bro I was gonna ask have you looked into like with the mixed mediumship

like anything with like overlap with psychedelics about that because that's something like in my personal experiences I've noticed a lot too like when you're like in the midst of these experiences there's way too many coincidences. Yes, way too many happen. I feel the same way. When I'm on shrooms, I'll like, dude, I'll be on shrooms. Oh God. Dude, no, I'll like be in line at a concert and then I'll

turn and I'll see like someone I haven't seen in 20 years and he'll also be on shrooms and then we're like, oh my God, what's happening? And I'll have like the best night. Like things like that happen a lot on psilocybin for some reason. Did you bring some equipment to fuck with me here about? Yeah. You gonna do that? Yeah, we could try something. Yeah, let's, let's, I mean, I I mean, you got, you got my, my intrigue up right now. I don't know how you motherfuckers are getting passcodes. That's, that's where it gets weird. I got to give you the Israeli spy phone out there.

You got to see if you can talk to Tel Aviv or something and tell me who's on the other end. It's hilarious. Yeah, fucking Eric Prince sent Joe and me. I don't know, maybe I'll just, maybe I'll just do a car trick. Keep a light. Yeah, let's do a cart trick. All right. That's lighter than Israel.

I don't know. Yeah. They just bring it back to Car tricks. I don't even know what type of card trick I'll do Alright what kind of fucking twisted deck is this This isn't from the tropical deck You can shuffle it Okay

Any way I can shuffle? Sure Like the casino shuffle? Knock yourself out You shuffle it badly You can do that too Oh now you're shit on my shuffling huh I knew we forgot to turn that on, sorry Joe

No it's on It was going off Okay I can just show you some sleight of hand stuff Yeah show me some slight of hand stuff All right, take one. Take one? You look over there.

All right, sorry. Here, take one. Okay, turn around. Turn around. Okay. Got it? I got it. I haven't looked at it yet.

Look at it. Oh. Okay. All right. Put it back. Just turn around. Like gone, right? Yeah, do something with it.

I know I actually lost it. I don't know it is Hold on That's not it right No What was the card Queen of Spades Are you sure about that

I'm positive Yeah it's Queen of Spades I'm dead serious That's wild Dead just kidding No look Son of a bitch What the fuck

No watch Look look look It's the Here sit down Sit down I'll show you something Really How many cameras

Are you ready Ready? Ready? Ready? Watch, watch. Queen of Spades? Uh-huh. Goes right there.

See, that works? Watch it. Queen of Spades? Look. Uh-huh. Now I'm still not tracking. All right. Have a look at it.

Here's this crazy. Is that you shuffle this? Yeah. Still right here, right? All right, one more time, one more time. I'll show you very slowly. It'll travel to my pocket. Queen of Spade. Do you see it? Watch. Already in my back pocket. Already there. Watch the replay.

Sorry. Slight hand. Joe, I don't like this. I don't like this sorcery. This is slight a hand. This isn't sorcery. Here, take one. Take one. You got to flip. What do you mean? You got to turn around. I have turned around right all right here go you're on my show got it here actually let's try this let's have you sign it here take that sign it I'll turn around so I don't see it sign in the face of it the face of it so I can't see what type of card you have

I'll turn around here let me know when that's done good all right take the card let me take the card I promise you I promise you man

I'm not looking looking away all right it's going to the deck yes all the way okay where's your pinky

your other yeah okay here hold your hand out you don't have six fingers do you know hold your hand up put your other hand on top covered up for me

covered up I'm gonna reach in there not too hard I have to reach in there. Don't cover it up too hard. I'm going to reach in there. That's not it, right? No.

Okay, I messed up. Hold on. Give me one more chance here. Oh, I got it. All right, don't move. Don't move. Stay there, Julian. Don't move.

What if I made this disappear? Would that make up for messing up? Uh-huh. One, two, three, gone. I'll never see it again. It's gone forever. All right, the back of my hand. But what if I made the whole deck?

What if I made the whole deck you're holding? onto right now completely vanish from inside your hands no you're not gonna make it vanish i can feel it it's right there yeah ready what the fuck what the fuck get the close up on that what the fuck is close up on that. What the fuck is that? What did you do? What the fuck? I don't like that.

I like the alien talk better. Let's go back to that. Here, look. There we go. Back. Get the covers back. Is that like an Elmer super glue, like Element 115 deck?

Exactly. Makes a card's transparent, too. Did Bob Lazare give you that? Oh, that's crazy. Are that cool? I hope people can appreciate that on camera because that shit was nuts. Slight a hand's always better in person. They're going to probably pick off on something on camera for sure.

But yeah, we'll leave it as is. Okay. You learned all that in a dimly lit bar? Yeah, pretty much. I mean, it's a good place to practice. I agree, but still. Like, do you go to classes for that? Yeah, like, you just self-taught everything.

Come on. That go my light? This is crazy, bro. I'm trying to figure out how many angles you got on me here. I'm like, oh, God, that one's going to hurt me. Yeah, there's like six guys. But, like, do you ever, like, fuck with some of your guests when they're coming in at first to get them off, get them off kilter? Not to get them off. No, no, no. It's always, all right, Travis Walden. We're going to find out the truth today, pal.

Travis love the magic. You know, I hung out with Travis the night before. Usually when I have guests over, they stay for two nights. So we're up in Canada, so we'll fly them in and we put them up in a hotel. Then I have dinner with them. I get to know them. Next day we go for breakfast. And then we pod and then we hang out afterwards. Oh, wow. You really hang out with it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. People like that in different styles. I kind of like to go in. I like to hang out after sometimes. Going raw. But like, yeah, pause. But, you know, I like when people come in here and I'm like, all right, let's feel each other out on camera. Again, pause. You know what I mean?

It's like. Raw dog, you're guest, you know. But then I, I, I, God damn it. Pause. Pause. But I do talk to a lot of guys where that's like you kind of get in the zone. And I've done it before, like where you hang out with them for a few hours and that really flows right into the podcast too. That's true.

But that's so you do that every time. Yeah. Yeah, I like, I like hanging out with them. And I know they're coming in from, like, far because we're in Canada. So I like showing them a good time, make sure they're taken care of. Yeah. I'll usually, yeah, I'll usually perform for them. I did, it's when I had Travis over, and Travis brought his grandson.

And so we were waiting for dinner, and I did, like, an impromptu, a little mentalism show for them. And just to. Oh, that'd be cool. Just for fun. And they loved it. But, yeah, I'll do that. I think it's a fun way to break the ice. You did a podcast around the same time I did.

with James back of January. Was that the first time you'd ever really talk with James, or did you know him before? No, I only met him at the congressional hearing. Oh, in November? Yep. Got it. And then I did some magic for him there,

and he's like James, like a giant kid, right? Oh, yeah. Loves magic. No. Yeah, yeah, he's so, so fun. Did you do that? Oh, my God! Oh, did you see that?

Oh, my God! He's the best spectator. he's awesome everything is magic to him so you know shown a magic is doubly so uh so he was he was great yeah brought him what what did you think of the if you might have met the congressional hearing i forgot you went that that was the one in in november so trying to think who talked there lou talked there who else was talking at that it was lou mike gold the guy from nassah okay um Schellenberger and Tim Gallaudet. So that was like kind of one of the first ones where they were actually taking stuff

on the record publicly in front of Congress. There have been a couple before that. But what did you make all that? Did you think, all right, this is just surface level like, hey, congratulations, participation trophy, it's a start, or was it more like you felt like it got somewhere? Hard to say, because I think when you're in that room, you feel like it has way more importance than when you're watching it on TV, I can say that. So, like, sitting in that room, like, the, I think the, the immensity of it wasn't lost on me. Like, as a Canadian magician, I'm sitting courtside in Congress for, like, a UFO hearing. Like, that shit blew my mind. Just that, right? So, you know, seeing it from that lens, I think it was much more earth-shattering, groundbreaking and, like, pushing the boundaries than watching it. Because hindsight, you know, I'll be like, oh, yeah, okay, I guess there was, you know, this and that or whatever, you go back and forth.

But being there is really intense. But I think it's good. I think it's good that we're talking about it no matter what. You know, it comes down to, you know, even if people are sciopping the UFO space or people are grifting or making TV shows or dramatizations of things that didn't happen. in or saying, oh, it's all my lab stuff or whatever it is. They're all talking about it. And I think that's good. I think it's, I think it moves the needle as a society, as us just sort of accepting it as a

reality. I think the more we hear about it, the better. Even if it's in not such a favorable tone, I still think it's good. I don't think there's a bad way to talk about UFOs. I think as long as you're talking about it, you're keeping it in people's, sort of cultural zeitgeist, and then from there, people will hopefully make their own decisions based on whatever evidence they're looking through. But yes, I think it's good. I think it's good that we have these hearings. Well, I don't think there's anything bad about it. Here's one way

I look at it where it could go the wrong way, right? If I cook the greatest burger ever, let's say I'm a five-star Michelin chef, I get one of those fucking Kobe burgers, I cook it perfectly, like the density of it like the whole bit and i go to serve it to someone and when they put the rest of the burger together in the kitchen with the lettuce and tomatoes they put lettuce and tomatoes on it that have that are molded and have some worms on it yeah okay now i cooked a perfect burger and let's even say the mold and the worms technically never touch the burger if i go serve that burger to to the customer and they open it up and look at it and see that They go, ugh.

And they're like, give me a new one. That's crazy. Yeah. And they want a whole new burger. Even though the burger hasn't been touched, like the good meat right there, they don't want you to come back with that same burger and new lettuce and tomato and bread to just get rid of the bad shit. They want a whole new thing.

And the thing I worry about with anything related to stuff that is not of this earth, that again, I believe exists. It's just like what's the medium and truth through which we're getting it. The thing I worried about, I worry about is getting the zes. stone flooded with so much information that is straight up wrong or lies or misinformation that shrouds pieces that could be truthful such that that burger or truth gets forgotten about and it's thrown out baby out with the bathwater. Do you ever worry about that with some of the guys who come forward and some of the stories that maybe it seems like,

that seems a little weird? No, because if you're lying about something, Why are you lying about it? Why are you lying about something? You know what I mean? Like, why are you talking about something if it's not there? Like, so I think, yeah, if you're talking about it, we're talking about UFOs. So if you're sitting there having congressional hearings about UFOs that don't exist, I think it's just as important. I think if you're going on record time and time again, month after month, saying UFOs are not real, I think it's just as valuable. as if you're going in Congress and saying they are real. Meaning just introducing it into the zeit guys. Yeah, you keep saying it. You keep saying UFOs aren't real. I was like, okay. What's your, you know what I mean?

Like, what's, I don't, I think as long as you bring it up, you're keeping it alive. It's like people who, you know, from like a religious standpoint, people who go, like, I don't believe in God. I don't believe in God. I don't believe in God. It's like, all right, bro. Why keep bringing them up? Makes you think about it Yeah

You know I think if we're As long as it's in our psyche The UFO thing Which I think it always is now I don't think there's any way We go back on that now

I think we've gone too far in To come back out I don't think there's ever going to be Dark Ages where we just stop Caring about the UFO thing I think we're in now And sure there's going to be people say don't exist

There's going to be people saying it does exist, but there's going to be more of both of those people as we move forward. And that's just more talk about the subject. That's more, you know, interest there, whether good or bad or, like, real or not real. It's like these people, you know, who go on social media just to debunk everything. It's like, it's all they do. It's like, you know, they're funny because those people are like the ones who call a lot of the researchers grifters. But it's like, where are you getting your money from? You're out here just making a living, like telling people UFOs are not real?

How? How are you making a living? They're still in the industry you're saying. Yeah, I mean, you're talking about it every day. You're arguably talking about UFOs more than I am. How? Where's that money coming from? This is wild.

That should be looked into. Not people making money talking about UFOs. How about people making money saying UFOs are not real? Well, I think you should distribute it. Yeah, I think you should distribute it. distributed and look at it across the board and say, all right, who's really just saying shit to say shit here, regardless of what direction it is. It's just crazy to me. It's like, that's your whole job. Yeah.

Like, you're spending more time of social media than I do, and I get paid for it. Yeah. It's wild. The thing is, like, there are unexplainable historical records throughout human history that point to things like, I'm not saying what it is specifically or whatever, but things that don't make sense. And I'm not just talking about, like, pyramids conspiracy. something like that i'm talking about legit written down like wait what did they just say about three foot people coming from the sky and fucking minus you know they're in 2000 bc and in south america like you see stuff like this and when you see over and over again it's not like some fucking giant like 8 000 years high up or something yeah i mean i'm not saying it's aliens

but like again they're like we said it a few times today but there's a they're there and so if you're if you're like completely throwing that out and not considering it that's kind of nuts but the reality is before 2017 that's kind of what people did i mean this was like a you were crazy if you it was like oh he always one of those like if you talked about UFOs and then boom they come into the new york times and you know you get someone from the pentagon saying hey we got some got some documents on this and people are like oh now now it's safe to talk about it's it's a shame that it took that but like i agree with you it's now like in the zeitgeist to the point that it's hard to get out.

The place where I might disagree with you is that if the zone is flooded with way too much bullshit over time, that the average person is like, what, what did that guy say last week again? Oh, yeah. And then that was, all right, you know what, fuck this stuff. I could see the general. I'm not talking about the people that are fans of this that are genuinely curious about all of it or smart about it like you.

I'm talking about the average person who you got to get on board. I do feel like we got to be careful with how much gets flooded into the zone because it's going to lose people. Yeah, be it as it may. I think it's fine if we lose, if it loses people. I don't think that's a, I don't think that, you know, I don't think aliens care. You know, the bottom line, I don't think they give a shit if you believe in them or not. Like, so, you know, if it makes you happy to, to, to just ignore it completely, that's cool too. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I don't have anything against someone who doesn't want to entertain. the idea. That's a choice that you can make and that's totally cool. I'm not out on a crusade to convince people. I'm, you know, I hope that people who are on a similar journey end up finding a video that I made and that they go, oh, this guy gets it or, you know, I'm there, I'm right there. That's who my videos are for. And it seems like that audience is growing. So the audience

that I have, like the videos that I make aren't for the skeptic. Although if you're skeptic and curious, watch the video by all means. If you want to shut it off unsubscribe and block me, do that too. I don't care. But hopefully it reaches an audience that thinks similarly. And that audience, like I said, seems to be growing, which is a good sign. Do you think there's a world in which, not naming any specific one, but, you know, a form or some forms of organized religion can exist with a known understanding that aliens who are far superior to us do exist as well? Yeah. Yeah, like the Vatican specifically, you mean?

It could be any of them, but yeah, sure. Go with that. Yeah, I mean, I definitely believe from what I've read, you know, and I've only read a limited amount. I'm not an expert on the matter, but Diana Posulka's work on that stuff and how. there does seem to be some narrative shifting in the translations from a lot of the original texts to what made it into, you know, people's Bibles or what have you. And so I do think there might be, you know, changing a word here or there. For what reason, one can speculate that, yeah, maybe they're, you know, they don't want people to know about a certain other presence. I don't

know that would be interesting that is the ultimate conspiracy you know but then my practical mind goes there's a comedian who he said it so so beautifully he goes uh you know after all the world's powers have come together and created the perfect conspiracy you know and they did all the things and they're just about done they go only one thing left to do plant the clues right It's like, let's get the guy who does the Federal Reserve to team up with the guy who does Mad magazine and, like, work on, you know, it's like, what are we, you know, so there is that. You got to leave him a treasure map. Yeah, exactly. You know, so the whole Da Vinci Code, you know, wild goose chase.

I think it's fun and entertaining. I don't think it's maybe, I don't think is a bigger reality as people make it out to be. I don't think there is, like, this one power. You know, you're probably. You're probably right about that because I think we ignore, in a lot of these conversations where we talk about this, we ignore human fallacy and human incentives, right? Yeah. Which includes the worst downside. And I think that there are different separately motivated groups of people who, in conjunction of taking whatever actions they do may create this full reality that, you know, from the outside, looking in to you and me might look like all these people are working together, right?

Right. And there are, and to be clear, there absolutely are conspiracies and there are people who want to do things bad in the world and that do do that. But I'm saying like all together. Like organized. Yeah. It's probably not, probably not as organized as we think it is. It's probably more like just a lot of bad, a lot of pieces of really foul stuff. You meet like a lawmaker and you go, oh, he's, he's dumb. Right. That's what I'm saying. Like, how could he keep his mouth shut about anything? Yes. You know, they'll say the wildest shit. sometimes, you know, on Twitter and stuff. And you're just like, what?

Yeah, yeah. I got to, like, I thought you guys were like the gatekeepers. Nope. You're just saying everything that someone told you. Yeah, whatever's on the teleprompter. Wild. Yeah. Somebody just told you something and you're like, the next day you're like tweeting about it.

I'm like, oh, okay, so these aren't the people. Yeah. I mean, you live up in Canada. You see that up and close up there. Oh, shit. Yeah. Things those guys say. I know.

They make our guys look smart. I don't think our guys are too smart. Yeah, it's insane to me that, like, you know, we put a lot of stock into, like, oh, we always say the government is this, like, overarching, you know, sort of umbrella corporation. But when you meet them individually, you go, oh, these just dumb people like me. Yeah. They're not any smarter. Okay, sure, they maybe know more about law or more about this, but, like, the decisions

they're making are full of mistakes, just like the ones that I would make. And so it is hard for me to fathom that, like, there is a selection. few that control everything when there's so many variables of, you know, strange and... Right. But one thing that I will say is, you know, like you said, there are incentives and there are ways to get people to do things or to not say things. You know, that is true. There are people that are being threatened, you know, to keep this a secret.

That is no secret. And there are people who are being paid off. there are people stuck in like lifelong NDAs and their families are being threatened. So that, that does exist. And if you go back to the Manhattan Project, you know, if you think we can't keep a secret, you know, on that level, we kind of did already. We did. You know, and what else even happened there, too, by the way.

That's right. Yeah, yeah. The offshoots of that is probably what we're dealing with today with the phenomenon, actually. You've had a few Townsend Brown discussions with Jesse if sure. Yeah, dude, Jesse blows me away. with his historical understanding of everything and how it ties together. He's so into it.

Especially the atomic period. Oh, yeah. But you have that, but also think about this. Like, these guys, they were considered heroes, patriots for keeping a secret, right? They were, and I think a lot of those guys

were sort of grandfathered into the UFO space, and that mentality was, too. What do you mean grandfathered as in like, hey, you kept your mouth shut about that and you're a hero. So we need you to keep your mouth shut about this and be a patriot. Don't talk about those paperclip Nazis and the UFOs. Do you know what I mean? Because it was for the greater good type deal, right?

So I think with the UFO program, it's the same thing. I think a lot of these guys are just, I think the people they look for in these programs are like patriots above all. I think like you're serving your country and that's why you've got to take this to the grave because it's for the greater good type deal. And I think that's a good, I think that's a good starting point other than threatening and NDAs and whatnot. So I think a lot of it comes down to people doing what they feel is right.

And who knows, they might be doing what is right by keeping a secret. Yeah, it's where it gets weird because it's like what do people deserve to know too. Yeah. You know, it's a part of your existence here on earth, like that knowledge to understand. Like if you also could share in some of that intelligence, if that is, in fact, what exists like hey this is what we know exists is where it is or whatever that is part of the meaning of life question and it gets to who are you to gate keep that but also you know they can simulate what would happen to society if they release that information maybe it triggers an event

that ends at all that's right yeah so it gets really scary it's like that old bob salis story james fox has talked about before when he's talking about you know the nuclear bases and you know the alleged UFOs that came there it's it's like it's almost like they were taking matches out of the hands of a baby. Yeah, yeah. It's like, we're just that baby playing with matches. Of course. I think so.

I think that would be, you know, if you had a baby show up with a shotgun, you know, you'd be like, that's weird. He doesn't know how that works. Yeah. And then he shoots it. And you go, oh, shit. Take the shotgun. Get the shotgun away from him.

One of those little AI things. Yeah, exactly. All right, real quick, I got to go to the bathroom. So let's take a quick break. but I want to, it's funny you brought up Los Alamos. I want to talk about that and we got to get to some Lazare stuff too. All right, yeah. All right, cool.

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