Julian Dorey Podcast - #353 - Brian Entin on Charlie Kirk Missing Roommate, Gabby Petito & Masked MONSTER

Episode Date: November 11, 2025

SPONSORS: 1) AMENTARA (Formerly MINNESOTA NICE): Link in Description: Go to https://www.amentara.com/go/julian and use code JD22 for 22% off your first order! 2) MOOD: Discover your perfect mood and get 20% off your first order at http://mood.com and use code JULIAN at check out! PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/JulianDorey (***TIMESTAMPS in description below) ~ Brian Entin is a senior correspondent for NewsNation. During his tenure at the network, Entin has reported on countless major news stories spanning the globe. BRIAN'S LINKS: YT: https://www.youtube.com/@UCwmrix5TJ0wR5PYVOS6GSpA IG: https://www.instagram.com/brianentin/ X: https://x.com/BrianEntin FOLLOW JULIAN DOREY INSTAGRAM (Podcast): https://www.instagram.com/juliandoreypodcast/ INSTAGRAM (Personal): https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey/ X: https://twitter.com/julianddorey JULIAN YT CHANNELS - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Clips YT: https://www.youtube.com/@juliandoreyclips - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Daily YT: https://www.youtube.com/@JulianDoreyDaily - SUBSCRIBE to Best of JDP: https://www.youtube.com/@bestofJDP ****TIMESTAMPS**** 00:00 – Intro 01:37 – From Local Grind to National Spotlight 11:53 – Gabby Petito Coverage & Ethical Lines 22:06 – From Viral Obsession to Real Horror 34:20 – Parents’ Silence, Swamps, and Empathy 49:19 – Moab Bodycam & Missed Warning Signs 01:02:38 – Life After Gabby: Grief & Guidance 01:09:29 – Weekly Series for the Overlooked 01:24:05 – Utah Shooting: FBI vs Sheriff Truth 01:33:49 – Vanished Roommate & Viral Misinformation 01:37:29 – Chaos, Optics & State vs Fed Control 01:52:43 – Rejecting Clickbait, Real Reporting 02:02:13 – Fear in Idaho & Capturing Kohberger 02:15:59 – Obsession, Motives & Family Division 02:28:12 – Courtroom Ethics & System Imbalance 02:42:21 – Chinese Land Buys 02:44:21 – Brian's work CREDITS: - Host, Editor & Producer: Julian Dorey - COO, Producer & Editor: Alessi Allaman - https://www.youtube.com/@UCyLKzv5fKxGmVQg3cMJJzyQ - In-Studio Producer: Joey Deef - https://www.instagram.com/joeydeef/ Julian Dorey Podcast Episode 353 - Brian Entin Music by Artlist.io Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Unless you're really there on the ground, you don't realize that this is not a game, this is not entertainment, it's like real people. At the end of Gabby Petito, we didn't know that he was like abusive or that there was even trouble in their relationship. We had no idea. And also, we had only seen videos of them from social media that were like beautiful. Suddenly, there was this other visual now that has come out that it was like, oh my God, this is a whole different story. Everything changed in that moment. Because now you had the image of the crying girl in the car. She still wasn't found.

And now people were like, oh my God, he killed her. There's so many weird things like you have been covering one of the most brutal murder scenes that anyone had ever seen. Brian Cobra pleaded guilty. What was your first thought on this case? There was just something especially eerie and freaky about that whole situation in the beginning. We didn't know if the person was a neighbor, was walking around. It's a small college town. It's the killer watching you when you're out doing your live shot.

Even I remember like being outside the murder house in, uh... You have been out, as you said, looking at the Charlie Kerr case. It is certainly weird. Yeah, I was there. Hey, guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five-star review. They're both a huge, huge help. Thank you.

All right, we got the news guy in here today. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This is awesome. It's so nice to meet you finally. You as well, man. I've been seeing you. We were talking. off air. I've been seeing you since the Gabby Petito story, which you were like the guy on that

and have been the guy on that story and many others since. But it's always funny. You and I were going through it. It's like, people see you and they're like, oh, this guy came out of nowhere. He's like the guy now, but they don't see the 10 to 15 years before that where you're on the road all the time. 100%. Yeah, everybody thought that was like my first story. They're like, oh, my God, this is your, you know, where did you come from? And it's like, no, I've actually been like working my ass off right for you know 10 years like you said 10 15 years before that um slugging it out in local news you know working my way up was working in miami and then i got the job at news nation where i was working when the gabby potato story broke and uh that was sort of like i guess the

story where people kind of found me i mean i had sort of a like a small loyal following but that was um that was sort of where people you know i guess discovered me now you were where you originally from? I'm from Florida. I'm from Florida. I grew up there. Yep. You grew up in Fort Lickerdale. I did, yeah. You're normal. Yeah, yeah. Crazy place to grow up. Good for you. There's not a lot of people who grew up in Florida. Like, I was born in Florida. Most people were like, come there later, you know, we're real Floridian. Florida man. Yeah, my friend Danny Jones always complains about all the goddamn Jersey New York transplants down here. I'm like, listen, you know, it has gotten a little crazy since COVID, though. Like so many New Yorkers came down. Right?

Yeah. What's the population change in Florida since COVID? It's insane. I mean, I don't know the numbers, but I was living in Miami up until I moved back to Fort Lauderdale like two years ago. One of the reasons I left Miami was just because so many, it got so crowded. Like my whole neighborhood, which I love New Yorkers, but it all became New Yorkers. Like my favorite restaurants were impossible to get into. My gym became crazy. Like, it just got to be nuts. Everybody moved there.

It slowed down a little bit now, though, I think. Now, at the beginning of COVID, though, were you going on the road a lot or even for guys like you did? because Gabby Petito wasn't until fall 2021. That's right. In 2020 and then early 2021, when shit was crazy, were you kind of locked down to? No. I was on the road every single week during COVID, which was insane because everybody was staying home, like the flights were empty.

You could get flights all the time, super cheap. So I'd fly to stories and be like, you know, there'd be like 12 people on the plane. And the weirdest thing was like in the hotels. You know, no one was staying in hotels. So I was always in hotels. and it would be like me and my photographer like literally the only ones in like an entire huge Marriott and they'd be like they have one person working at the front desk no one else in the whole place it felt it was like it was like ghost town basically isn't it crazy that that was

only like four or five years ago yeah it feels like a lifetime ago it is crazy you know yeah and I don't think I mean knock on what I never got I mean I was always on the road and I was okay you know did you always want to do this be the newsman on the ground when you were growing up pretty much always yeah what drew you to it Yeah. You know, I was in, like, I was kind of a theater kid to start out with. I liked theater as a young kid, you know, middle school. And then I don't know, I just started watching the local news in Miami. Like, local news in Miami is crazy. It's kind of like L.A. Like there's like, you know, police chases every day and the helicopters are up and, you know, fires and shootings. And I just got hooked on it as a kid watching. And I was weird. I mean, I would make my mom, you know, I was also into magic, by the way. I was like a, I was a child magician. I would just like, I would just. like birthday parties and stuff. And then I went into the news phase and I would make my mom drive me.

Like, you know, you'd see the reporters on TV at like, you know, 5 p.m. And then I knew they'd be doing their live shots again at 6 p.m. So I would make my mom, you know, drive me out there so that I could meet them. And these people were like celebrities to me. Like, I was obsessed with the local news.

You weren't like going in the background and blowing them up. No, no. Yeah, which is what we deal with now. Yeah, no, none of that. More just like, oh my God, I love you. Can I get your autograph? Yeah, they were the superheroes back then. They were.

They were superheroes, especially to me. But a lot of people back then, yeah, that's when, like, local news was king. Yeah, also Miami. Like, you know, they're ducking bullets out there sometimes. Yeah, yeah, crazy news stories that I grew up with. What are we talking to the 90s here in 2000s? Yeah, I was born in 85, so it would have been, yeah, like mid-90s, yeah. Yeah, you want some good documentary content.

You go to Miami. For sure. There's definitely a few stories down there. Oh, my God. It's a great news town. I worked in local news there before I started doing the national thing. And, I mean, it's never a dull moment. You know, you got like crazy political, local politics, all sorts of corruption.

You got crime every day. You got people eating each other's faces off under bridges. I mean, just crazy. Like all, wait, wait. You can't leave that down there. People eating each other's face off. Yeah, there was that big story in Miami. That was like a big national one years ago.

There was like a guy on, what was he on? He was on, what was that drug that everyone was on, like, bath salts? Yeah. He was on bath salts and like ate somebody's face. face off. And then you got like gators all the time, like, you know, attacking people and and stuff. So, yeah, there you go. Miami face-eating attack lasted 18 agonizing minutes to grizzly assault on a homeless man whose face was eaten by a deranged assailant lasted for 18 minutes and was captured on surveillance cameras. Rudy Eugene, whose authorities suspect may have been high

on a dangerous new street drug known as bath salts. There you go. Yeah. Had to be shot four times by a police officer to halt the cannibalistic attack. Oh my God. Yeah, I mean, this stuff happens all the time in Miami. Like some of it makes national news, but like it was a crazy news market. Yeah. So it was fun. Yeah, it's like the good, you know, trial, baptism by fire.

It was. You're down in Miami. It's like, all right, I can handle anything now. 100%. Yeah. So you have, like I said, covered pretty much all the major crime stories since 2021. Yeah. We'll also talk about all the other types of stories you're covering.

It seems like just whenever shit goes down, they're sending you somewhere. Yeah, yeah. It started, like you said, with the Gabby Petito. And that was obviously a big story that people got really invested in. I went to Northport, Florida, which is where she left with Brian Laundry, you know, in the van to go on the cross-country trip. He showed back up with the van. And I was one of the first reporters over there, which I think is why, you know, people started following me. And it was weird because, you know, the police didn't really like us being there.

And there was no sidewalk outside Ryan Laundry's house where we could set up. So they kicked everybody off the street. And there was no real way to keep an eye on his house to see if he was going to come back or if Gabby Petito was going to come back. So I rented the lawn from the neighbor, like made this agreement with the neighbor

to pay him and his wife so that I could camp out on their lawn. Now, how do you go about, you just walk up to the front door and say I got an offer for you. So I had kind of become friendly with, like, I'm this like a friendly guy. Like, when I go to these scenes, like, I always, that's just my nature, like, to just kind of like, I always make friends with the neighbors and like, I'm just talkative, you know.

And you also have a lot of time to kill at these scenes, you know, like, you're waiting for things to happen. So I'm chatty, you know. So I had already become friends with them. And they had like two adorable pugs and I love dogs. So I'd always like go out and see their dogs and everything when I was just stationed on the sidewalk. But then when they kicked us all out, I'm like, what are we going to do?

Because everybody was going live from the police station. and I'm like, I can't leave this house. Like, something's about to go down. So anyway, I just said to them, and I felt bad. At first I was just going to, like, see if they would do it for free. But, you know, I was like, it was me and my photographer and a producer. Like, we were going to kill their grass and stuff. And it was kind of annoying for them, I think.

So I was like, hey, we'll pay you. I forget what we paid them. Maybe, it was cash, maybe like, I want to say maybe like 300 a week. I ended up being there for like six weeks. Is that out of your own pocket? Are you calling up news news news? No, I think we got. I don't know how we expensed it.

Like, somehow we found a way to expense it. But so, and they had like, and they were both like hardworking people. They would leave early in the morning. And they had like, I remember they had this little like duck statue by their front door. And we would just put the money under the duck. Oh, this is old school. Yeah. Yeah, it was old school.

And then it was incredible because everybody else had to leave. And we had our spot. And it was right next to Brian Laundrie. You know, Gabby Petito's the boyfriend who killed her. it was right next to his parents' house. So, like, we would, we were right, basically in there, we would go right to the line of their yard and just, we had a tent, and we would just stay there.

Oh, you had a tent on the front one? You're like dirty mic and the boys. Yeah, and because we had all our equipment and stuff, you know, and it was, I mean, it was rainy, swampy in Florida that time of year. And I think it made his parents crazy because it was like there was nothing they could do. We were right there.

And we saw everything when the FBI came and raided the play. Everything, we were like, we were on our own little, we had our own spot that we were, paying for. So like they couldn't do anything. What was the, what is the legality there? Because like you said, they didn't have a sidewalk. So it was a little strange because I remember it. You know, you'd see this video and there'd be people out on the streets. Yeah. But you just mentioned like other people were forced to leave, but you were able to stay because you had permission to be on someone else's lawn. Correct. How like from a first amendment and maybe fourth amendment perspective,

I'm sorry if I'm getting too technical. But what is the legality of police saying you can't be on the street itself? So listen, this is like a as I've, reporter, especially when I was on local. I mean, you're battling this every day. You're always getting kicked out of places. I mean, usually if you're on a public sidewalk, there's nothing anybody can do, period. Like, you can stay on the sidewalk as long as you want. But that was the problem is there wasn't a sidewalk. It was like this weird Florida neighborhood where it was just a road and then there were there were like these two little like kind of like little canal, not really canals, but little ditches for this like the water, drainage ditches.

on each side of the road and then the driveway. So there was nowhere to legally say, and they can say you're blocking traffic. You know, they can get you off the road, basically, which is what they did. And there was nowhere to park, which also when we were paying the neighbors, they would let us, that was also a big thing. They let us park in their driveway. But when you're in this tent, the cops weren't like, fuck you doing it in a tent? Oh, they were annoyed.

I mean, we beat the system. So they're going up to the neighbors, like, do they have permission to be here? And they're like, yes. Yes. And, like, I, I mean, I had eyes on everything in that spot. I mean, they were, must have been so annoyed and especially the laundries, too. But the police, I mean, I saw so many things during that month and a half that I didn't report because I was just, I was seeing everything up close. Like, the police had put these hidden cameras up in the trees behind Ryan Laundry's parents' house to keep an eye on the back because they thought when he did come back, they thought he was going to sneak out.

And I saw a lot of that stuff. happened. I never reported it just because I wasn't, I mean, why would I go on TV and say that? I didn't want to ruin their investigation. But, but there was just the spot, yeah, because then, then he would have known and, you know, but the spot that I was in, it was just like, I knew everything. And I never left. I mean, I would just stay there all the time. Now, that's interesting though, because that also is like a fine line of doing your job and also like trying to protect the integrity of the most important thing here, which is that investigation is able to happen and people brought to justice or, you know, at the time she was found.

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Much love. But what, you know, what's that like when you, like you said, it's a long time where you're basically boring and doing nothing and then boom, something happens. And you have it. And this is a story, everyone's watching around the country. And you can go right now in front of your camera and report it and get a lot of eyeballs on you, a lot of eyeballs on your network, make yourself some personal brand cash, if you know what I mean? Yeah. And you decide on certain things, the public should not have this because it could impede the investigation. What is that decision like? Because I imagine you almost have to think about that if you have integrity like you on almost everything. A hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, I think you have to make those.

decisions in the moment. That's where like this whole, you know, like I was really, I still am into really into Twitter X, but I was into it during Gabby Petito Big. I went from like, I think when I started the Gabby Petito story had 30,000 followers. And I mean, I had like, within like a month, I was growing like hundreds of thousands per month, you know. You were number one trending on Twitter for three weeks. So there was this feeling of like people where there was so much interest in wanting to get the information out fast, but also like taking a second to think about the investigation about, you know, by that point, I was starting to get to know Gabby's parents and this, I mean, this was a real, this wasn't just like a video game or a reason for me to get

popular. Like, yeah, there was like real shit going on, you know? So I think that's where like kind of the old school, you know, I had grown up going, you know, I started in a really small market, worked my way up for 10, 15 years. You know, I had like ethics from doing the job in local news, learning from different people who I looked up to. So it wasn't just about like clicks. Um, but there was this just like hunger for information. And at the same time, you wanted to feed that. But yeah, I think you just have to make the decisions. And it's, it's not easy. Like, like even camping out in the yard. I mean, what journalist does that? Like, I think sometimes I've crossed the line. There's things, other things I can think of. And I don't think I crossed

the line there. But, you know, I got obsessed with with it. Like, I started following. So since I was camping out there, I would see every time the parents would leave. And this was when Gabby was missing. So I started following them, which... Like walking or car? No, by car. And that's where, like, I started. I was with Luis, who was my, like, long time, really good friend, Infoog. And, like, I think we started... You... I remember telling Luis, like, what is the boundary here for us? Like, our... I don't want to be paparazzi. Like, but... And we would follow them around. And then I started live streaming

sometimes when I was following them because I wasn't sure where they were going and this you have to in the moment like no one knew where Gabby was then Brian Laundrie went missing out of the house I don't know if you remember that like he disappeared Brian actually if you don't mind before we go into this just for people who don't remember the case or didn't see the Netflix documentary that came out I believe the end of last year can you just give the outline of what happened at the beginning and what the nature of it was for them yeah so Gabby Petito this beautiful young woman woman was with this guy named Brian Laundry, and they built a van together. Van life is really big.

It's still really big if you go to, like, Utah, Idaho. So they put together this van that they were going to live in and travel across the country. She was an upcoming social media influencer, so she was making videos, beautiful, you know, YouTube videos and Instagram and drone. Yeah, there you go. There's the van. And so basically, you know, they started on this trip across the country and things go south. You know, we would later learn he was abusive and didn't like that she was, you know, sort of trying to build this business of, you know, van life and social media.

And he ended up killing her in the Grand Teton National Park. And but it was just a massive story because she was missing for so long. And then he went missing. And it's, I mean, I don't think I've. Brian Kohlberger was as big, but there's not a lot of stories that come along like that where I think like everybody was sort of fascinated and dialed into it. Yeah, it was, it kind of had every possible theme you'd look for in your Shakespearean tragedy. Yeah.

And not to make it not what it was, which was real life. But, you know, that's also something we could talk about in a little bit with what the public reaction was to it and then how people assess that afterwards because, you know, the reality is, unfortunately, there are a lot of incidents in this country that happen every day where someone goes missing. Yeah. Someone's abused by, you know, their husband or something and ends up dead and is never found. And a lot of cases don't get the coverage. This one got the coverage and I get it.

But I think the documentary also did a really good job, the one on Netflix, of like, kind of, post the whole situation wrestling with the why do we have a fascination with certain ones versus other ones that said both they were young i think they were like what 24 and 20 something like that young yep you know and they're they had moved away from new york they're living in florida with his family his parents like you said are at the center of the store and it's like what do they know they go on this romantic journey across the country one comes back the other doesn't then you had the whole footage from the when the cops pulled them over so it added more drama it just it had it all yeah and you had i mean as a as a storyteller as a journalist you had immediately all of their videos

when they were missing so you could tell their story and people saw them and became like obsessed because you know sometimes you'll cover a missing case and it's like you know the family give you three photos three still photos and it's like you got to make people care and i think that you know it was like we were handed this whole envelope but you know they had to you've got to great YouTube videos. So people became very, very invested. Did you get, trying to think, like, how long was the process again from you first getting on the ground to they find Brian Laundrie's body? Not hers.

They found his. So maybe a month. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And again, at first we thought he was in the house, which is the reason I was camping out because we didn't know was an arrest going to go down at any time. Was she going to show up? You know, my first thought when I got there was that maybe this was like some kind of social media hoax, like, were they somehow doing this?

That was honestly my forefore. I knew anything. I'm like, are they kind of doing this for attention? Like, and she's going to, that was just what I first thought before I knew anything. So we were just waiting there and assumed that he was in the house and then realized something really shady was going on because they would never come out and his family would never talk, which was just kind of weird. Like you're essentially, your daughter-in-law is missing. and you're held up in the house, like, hiding out. And then he went missing and somehow, you know, mysteriously disappeared from inside the house.

And you didn't see, you had no inkling of that. No idea. And the police didn't either. And they were, and one day they were just like, we now don't. That, that, you talk about why it was such a big story. So all of it was big. And then all of a sudden they come out one day when everybody thinks he's been in the house and they say, and now we don't know where Brian Laundry is.

We've lost track of him. He's not in the house anymore. It was like, oh my God. And his parents weren't cooperating at all, which was, who that was so strange to watch. It is impossible to put yourself in the shoes of, you know, someone who raised someone for 20-some years and then is maybe in denial about what he did and is trying to protect their kid. But at the same time, you have another missing human being here. Yeah.

Like morally, you should probably help out. Totally. That's fair to say. but they were so, I mean, I would, from the outside, I'd describe it as they were stonewalling it. Well, and we would later find out, you know, I mean, I've been working on this now for years, but, you know, through depositions and stuff

that they had hired a criminal lawyer in Idaho where, you know, and they, there was a lot going on behind the scenes. But at that time, just back to what I was saying, like, you know, I started following them because it was just, it was hard to not go all in, like just want to know well where are they going what's happening are they going to visit brian like where you know did they catch you following them in the car i'm pretty sure they knew um and you know that i think the fbi i was there was always like a few of us following you know like um so it wasn't

just me like they're like waving to the but again there was just this moment and when you went back to like kind of where you draw the line and ethics like i remember thinking like what is the line here like should i be fault and you know you get personally obsessed with something and case and uh i just remember saying to louise like that my photographer like where should we keep doing this like you know and i remember like even my bosses didn't know we were doing it sometimes he would just like do it you know yeah that was another question it's like what how much do they know about your not even minute to minute obviously as you just pointed out but like day to day like what your strategy was are you on the phone with producers at news nation like here's what i'm

thinking about doing today and news nation had just started so you know we're a new um a new news organization even still but this was the very beginning so we are we are startup we're still a startup but even then it was like you know how a startup is we're already kind of like working everything out and at that point now news nation does like you know we're on tv 24 hours a day pretty much with news but back then we were only doing two three hours a night because we had just started and they would run like blue bloods and all these old shows during the day so it gave me a more time to kind of like do those sort of you know i'd follow them for hours and like i didn't have to be on tv until at night so so i would tell they kind of knew but i think something in me was

kind of pushing the yeah pushing the limit a little bit during that i think but you know i i don't think you can be good at the job if you if you're constantly worried about like rules and stuff you had said a little bit ago that there were times earlier in your career where in hindsight you felt like you had crossed the line what do you have examples of that and why you think it was across the line afterwards um yeah i'm trying to think of a few i mean i don't want to jump around too much i guess we'll talk about brian coburger later but yeah we will you know i've i've regretted some things like i snuck into his parents neighborhood um wow which is like a gated neighborhood and I got a lot of heat for that like people who felt bad for his parents um and uh

you know it's just when you're when you're in the zone of a story and it's so hot and it's so raw in that moment and you're like when we look back and talk about these things it's like chill you know but like when you're in something that's that big in that moment and you're that invested and you're not sleep and you're putting your all into the story. Like sometimes you just maybe push a little too hard. Is the mentality when you're doing this, I don't even know if you know this when you're in it, but I guess answer this as best you can, is the mentality when you're doing this leaning more towards reporting the news and reporting the story or actually because you are doing that also like kind of being an investigator and solving it and helping the

investigation itself with the professionals? I think it's mostly reporting the story. Okay. Because, you know, I don't want to ever interfere with, like I said, I don't think I've ever done anything hopefully to really interfere with the police investigation. That's never been an issue for me because I don't ever want to do that. So mostly it's just reporting. But along the way, like when these things are unsolved, of course, you're, you know,

you're thinking, like, sometimes you find things. And even like with Gabby Petito was just a regular person who had some video that they found on their dash cam you know what i mean like you can find things along the way but i try not to go into it like i i want to be a reporter number one you know and just bring information to people did you have on the pittito case going back to that did you have you know towards the beginning of you being camped out and you know trying to uncover information was law enforcement asking you questions about hey have you seen this or seen that like to try to help with the investigation a little bit they were really um i mean they were under a lot of pressure and they were a lot of people were um calling

them out at that i mean they weren't you know the public was not happy with law enforcement during all of that obviously and then when he snuck out of the house and they didn't know people thought it was just like a dog and pony show so they were very careful with what they would say um i remember when i was telling you about how i how i saw the so i saw them putting up the the secret cameras in the back of Ryan Langer's house. And like he had a neighbor behind his house where they put the cameras up in the trees. So I remember I went over to that neighbor and I was like, hey, like I saw them doing that. And he took me in the back and was like, yeah, here are the cameras and here's like their, they had like a whole little antenna system beaming the video back to their police

station and everything. So I remember I told one of the police like sergeants, like one of the higher ups that I was dealing with as a member of the media. I told them at one point, that I had seen that and that I knew where they were. And I actually interviewed the neighbor and got video of the cameras because that's kind of my other thing. Like, you mind's well, you don't have to use it. And I didn't use it. But like when it's all over one day, you know, I still wanted to document what I was

getting in real time. And I remember telling them that and kind of like trying to show them that they could trust me because they probably thought I was this crazy guy like camping. You know, but it was like, listen, just so you know, like I have this and I would never, like I would never put this out. So just trying to build like trust in that way. You know, and I've, I've had other situations like that in other cases with cops where I'll come across something and it's like clearly they wouldn't want this out. So, and sometimes I'll let them know that I have it just to kind of show like this could be an incredible.

I mean, if I had put the story out in that moment with the secret cameras, like you said, talk about clicks, talk about views. I mean, but it's like I'm not going to do something. Hey, I've gotten to know the families and I want justice and I want them to find their daughter. And then also like, I'm not going to do something where I can't sleep well at night. and, you know, I would feel bad about that. Yeah. You know, it's not worth, like, one viral poster, one big story on News Nation, you know? I agree.

You have to tow that line, like we were saying a little earlier. It's a tough line to tow sometimes because, like, you have a job to do. Yeah. But I think people don't want to see that, like, let's say people in the media are, like, in cahoots with law enforcement all times. Yeah. But I think there's a really, especially when it's, you know, someone's missing or there's a life at stake. There's an appropriate middle ground there to where you at least say, hey, I got my job,

you got your job. Yeah. But if there's something that can interfere with each other's jobs that is not in the public interest, we can make that call together. Right. So like you said, that probably helps in other investigations that you're then involved with where they're like, okay, we know this guy is not going to just like run his mouth every time he picks something up.

And you know, that's important for you to be able to actually get sources and do your job. Yeah. Yeah, and for them, I mean, solving the case is ultimately the, you know, the end goal. Yeah. I mean, me doing a story, if that's going to impact that, it's just not worth it in that moment. But at the same time, like, you're not going to let law enforcement start bossing you around. And a lot of them will call it now, oh, our media partners. And that always, I always thought that was a little weird.

Like, we're not, we're not your partner. Like, you know, we can help each other. You can, we can help you get the word out about things. But, you know, it's, it's a weird, it's definitely, there's, there's not a clear line there. Yeah. It kind of changes depending on the story and sort of what's happening. And it's strange because you have to make gut calls a lot. You do.

I mean, that's pretty much what it is. And you mentioned, like, calling your reporters and bosses, but, like, a lot of times you're the one there. Like, you really have to make the call. Like, you're the one who's seeing what's happening and who knows the players. So, like, you can't really rely on your boss all the time. And your boss being removed and wanting the story and stuff, they're going to be a little more, let's say, biased towards you reporting things. That's just the nature of the business.

So you have to be able to say, well, am I shooting my load for just this one story and I'm going to fuck myself in the future? Or is this in the best interest for me to hold on to this and document it later? Yeah. And sometimes you just don't even tell anybody for your body. Like that's the thing like with a photographer or photographer and producer you're out with. like you guys have a tight, usually a tight, um, relationship, especially the good ones because it's like, there are things that you're like, listen, let's not even, let's just keep this between us for now because, you know, because like you said, other people will get the,

oh, we got it, oh my God, let's get it out, you know? And it's like, then you're the one who looks like a jerk. Yeah, no, that's important to have that kind of relationship with the people there on the ground with you, you know? Did you know there's an online cannabis company that ships federally legal THC right to your door and that they've found a way to combine THC. with carefully selected functional ingredients to target nearly every mood and health concern you can think of? The company I'm talking about is mood.com

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So you had said you've been working, what was his name? Luis. Luis. So you've been working with Luis for a long time. Yeah. So Luis is the best. he um he so him and i worked together in local news in uh miami before and um did all sorts of crazy things like he's basically my partner in crime we would you know we did a million hurricanes

we went to guatemala there was a volcanic eruption i mean you name it we we had been all over the place uh and um and then when i got the job at news nation i was like louise like you got to come with me to news nation like i can't do this by myself you know you're like you're my guy you know And I remember, he was like, wait, what is this whole new startup thing? And we were at like a pretty established local station, the kind of place you could just stay forever, make a good living, you know, wasn't going anywhere. And finally, I kind of convinced him. I'm like, this will be an adventure.

Let's just do it, you know? So it's good when you have someone that you can really trust like that. And he'll dial me back too sometimes. Like, are you sure we want to do it? You know what I mean? Like I can trust him in that way. Yeah, that's obviously incredibly important because, you know, I keep thinking there's not a huge difference. It's very similar to like what you're dealing with versus what like a friend of mine,

Joby Warwick, deals with. So Joby's been a national security reporter for like 30 years. Pulitzer winner, the whole bit. And he deals with all this geopolitical stuff around the world. And he talks about it all the time where they will be working on a big story. And the minute they're about to press enter and go some of their sources on other stories from intelligence. intelligence agencies and stuff like that, we'll call them up and say, great job on this. You got it. You can't run with it, though. And they'll say why?

And they'll say, well, because X, Y, and Z people are going to die if you do this. And then Joby and a group of other reporters who at the end of the day, they're just going off of what sources say, have to go into a conference room and have a meeting to where they have to play their best, you know, throw a dart at the board and see what's right here as to whether or not they're being. used by these guys to stop a story that's not in their interests or whether or not they're actually putting lives at danger and then if that's the case what is the public interest of lives so to speak if we report this and I always think about being a fly on the wall in that room I'm like how do you even yeah how do you make that call you know and then the next day you read like oh 20 people executed it's like you know like you're in that's hard yeah sort I mean, that's harder than what.

I mean, if you're dealing with, like, you know, lives on the line and you have to make those calls, I don't know that I've ever had a situation quite like that. But I've definitely had a lot of situations where the cops have called me and been like, can you hold off for a day or two? And usually I'll do it unless I feel like we're being used or we've already held off for a day or two. It's like, come on. Like, you know? Yeah. When you first got on the scene and thought, you know, you were saying your gut reaction was, oh, they're doing this. for social media cloud. She's going to pop out. When did that change? And you suddenly were like,

wait a minute, something happened here. I think it was when his parents weren't coming out of the house. Because like most of the time when you go to a story like that, like, you know, the parents will come out and talk like, yeah, where's Gabby? Like, we need help, you know. And just the the way they were acting just didn't make any sense. Like not only not coming out of the house, but like they'd run to their car, like, you know, to avoid. It was kind of like, why are you acting? this like if there's nothing wrong here and that's when i started to think like okay there's there's more to this and i thought i was just going to be there a couple days you know like most stories you show up you know something usually comes there's usually some kind of outcome in a couple

days three four days a week i had no idea that i would be there that long and then i ended up like retracing her whole journey um i did the road trip you know when i ended up just being coming a story that i worked on you know pretty much nonstop for you know months and months and months Yeah, it's one of those that you'll be talking about on documentaries, 30, 40 years for sure. Yeah. And it's weird, too, because I've become close to her parents now and, you know, consider them friends now. It's just a weird sort of, it makes a weird circle in a way. You know, it's like you start out. It's such a story that you're into. And then by the end of it, you're friends with all these people who were involved and you

care about them. And it just takes on a whole different, you know, life in a way. It's kind of strange, but this is the nature of the news business. It's strange when, you know, your job is to go get stories and then you kind of, you work so hard and then you have your moment where you do an amazing job reporting on a story, but unfortunately in the middle of it, you know, there's insane victims to, you know, extended families, direct families, a young woman killed in her prime. Like, that's got to be a little weird, right? Where it's like, yeah, this was a huge moment for me and I did my job and probably helped

the case come to a conclusion by the way with with the reporting you did but you know there's there's an empty hole left behind for people yeah and i think for especially like on social media and and that sort of the true crime community they get so obsessed with these cases some of them think of it almost it's like a video game or like a movie they're watching it unless you're really there on the ground you don't realize that it's like real people this is not um you know this is not a game. This is not entertainment. And for me, too, like, of course, number one is reporting, but, you know, you're human first and you kind of just have to take a step back. And I was thinking, you know, at the end of Gabby

Petito, at the end of Coburger, like I sometimes have this moment, you know, when I can finally feel like I can kind of become friends with the families more than just like me always doing my reporting thing. And it's nice to think while I came out on the other side and, you know, these people aren't mad at me. You know what I mean? Because it's like, like you go so hard and there's so many moments where you could really piss these people off because you're bugging them or you're and that's the other thing like you don't you know there are things you're putting out that they don't always like about the victims or you know because you got to do it I mean that's your job but it's always a good feeling when you come to

the other side and it's like there's the good guys and the bad guys and it's like the good guys are cool with me even after all this you know when did you first come into contact with her parents what part you know where were we out in the case at the time it was pretty early on they were doing um they started doing press conferences with their lawyer basically saying like you know please anybody with information and then they started saying you know that that brian laundries parents weren't responding to their calls and i think it was around that time when i started texting with them um and it just kind of grew from there uh but she has a really unique cool family yes they're cool like her dad jo uh you know their parents are divorced but they're all really close you know she's got

like two moms and two dads. It seemed very, yeah, I'm glad to hear that. That's legit, too. It is legit. It is legit. And that's the other interesting thing with covering these stories is you get this like look into these families and these, even you put the crimes aside. Like, you get this really intimate look into these people's lives. And like with the potatoes, it's like, holy like cow. Like, I mean, I, you know, my parents are divorced and they don't get a lot. Like, I'm just like, wow, like this isn't amazing. Like, they're an amazing. And it's all real. Like, they all go golfing together. They go on vacation together. They go on vacation together. like it's really really cool yeah yeah it's i mean when you're watching a family come out and basically

like beg the public for help and you're starting to see the pieces come together you see that his you know he's left the house at that point which it's crazy that no one did we even know how he got out i mean it sounds like they thought it was the mom leaving one day and it was actually him which is like so stupid like how do you mistake him how do you think it's you know she's like plus 200 on him yeah yeah yeah and she's like yeah I mean it's like a woman it doesn't make any sense you know so no that's nuts yeah must that I mean I'm guessing it had to be like middle of the night like back door something like that I mean there's so many weird things like you know remember it was he ended up in this swamp which was like a half an hour away so then my life became when when

they thought he was in the swamp they didn't know he was dead but it could be my life would be like camping out at the house and going to the swamp. Like, I would just go back and forth every day obsessively. Crocodile done the end up there. Yeah, yeah, because I was like, oh, my God, now I got to be at the swamp all the time. Like, and there was no cell phone service at the swamp. And it was before I had like a Starlink. So, like, that was really difficult, though.

Imagine going somewhere for half the day and having zero cell phone service in the swamp. So I wasn't able to talk to my bosses. When stuff would happen, I'd be like, I'd have to drive to tweet. Like, you know, I'd run, drive, get a tweet out, go back to the swamp. Um, and like the TED movie, sorry, I was sending a tweet. Yeah, it was like crashing in the car. Yeah, it was so frustrating though, you know what I mean? Because I was like trying to get everything out so fast.

Um, are you afraid when you go out to that swamp though? I mean, it's you and, and Luis and who the fuck knows? I mean, I'm a little afraid. It's funny, I'm not afraid of like, like, killers, but I'm afraid of like, I mean, I'm a little afraid of like gators at night and stuff. You know what I mean? Like when you're right by the water, like that kind of stuff does kind of freak me out a little, you know? Were you carrying?

No, I wasn't. No. Brian, you're from Florida. Yeah, no comment. I thought all you picked to carry. Yeah, I'm working for News Nation. You know, I got to be careful. Yeah, we got we got corporate policies.

They got corporate policies over there? No comment. No comment. Okay. All right, I like that. Yeah, I mean, that's, you're talking about, though, someone who was trained to like live off the land. Brian Anthony grown up, loving camping, you know.

Brian Laundrae, yeah. I'm sorry. Did I say your name? That's the other thing. It's so weird that he has the same name as me. And then with Brian Coburger, too. So it's like all these people. Yeah, someone with the Brian's here, man. Yeah. Brian Laundry and grown up living off the land. And so he had, if I remember correctly, he had camped out in this swamp, which is a large area too. Huge. Yeah. Huge wild life preserve. Yeah. Yeah. And he knew it well and he hiked there. And so, yeah, that people thought, you know, perhaps he could be, you know, would know how to survive out there for a while, which is why, I mean, they had crazy resources out there, you know, fed. state, local police, people on horses, ATDs, drones, drones, helicopters. I mean, every day, it was a massive search.

You didn't know if that was gonna be the day. And then, you know, you remember, again, just back to the weirdness factor, you know, they search for weeks and weeks and we're out there every day and it was so hot that time of year and just muggy, just middle of Florida, you know, and raining every day, and they're searching and these guys are coming out.

I mean, every day they're covering every inch. And then, like, his parents go for a random walk in the swan. and like within like 10 minutes find him remember that yeah almost like they knew where he would have ended up yeah and it's also but it's also like so it's another sinister level because they had to know at that point you know he probably had offed himself yeah and it's like they know obviously they completely fucked up in this whole situation it's hard to have empathy for them but like on a human level like imagine going in there knowing you're going to find

the dead body of your son who also now went out of murderer it's like you want to talk about just a range of things going on in your head I can't even fathom that totally yeah and I tried to have that perspective a lot too I mean you know people come

like you said I mean in a lot of ways I look back at some of the stuff they knew and it's hard not to think that they're bad people in some ways but then I talk to a lot of parents throughout the whole thing or like you know when it's your own kid yeah you know People do things for their, you know, and it's your own blood.

And I got to talk to other parents say, I'd turn them in immediately. But a lot of people said, well, you know, it was my own kid. I don't know, you know. A lot of people say, and I try to be really careful with this, it's a common line we can get caught using with anything serious. You'll say, if I were blank, then I would blank. And I'm a firm believer with most things you don't fucking know. Yeah.

You know, it's not to say I would really like to think, and I'm not a parent yet, but I would really like to think that I would not have been as obstructive or just like straight up, like offensive to people as his parents were. But from perspective of like also trying to protect your kid, assuming maybe also you actually have it in your head that despite all the evidence to the contrary, he really didn't do this because my kid would never, it's hard to imagine what your mind might make you do in that situation. And it's just, I mean, it's tragic that the story is just a complete and total tragic. D 360 degrees around it because of that. Yeah, and I don't want to, I hate to skip around too much, but this just made me think of this because I covered the Charlie Kirk assassination and I went back to Utah last week

and this kind of relates, I was talking to the sheriff there about Tyler Robinson and the suspect, his parents, remember his parents turned him in and everything and they were telling me how, you know, the parents turned him in, okay, turned their kid in, but now that the death penalty is on the table, they're not as cooperative. And it just got me thinking. It's like you did the right thing and turn your kid in, but once your kid, once you may be executed by the state, is that where you draw the line of like, I'm not going to assist you in killing my kid? These are all just weird.

You know what I mean? They're weird. You know? Yeah. Now, we'll, I do want to come back to that case and give it the proper, you know, go through and not get too far off it. But I had spoken to a source, and there's been a lot that's happened since that week, obviously, that we'll have to talk about. But I had spoken to a source who had some pretty inside information just on like when he turned himself in and the whole bit. And I can't even imagine what that dead.

I can't say this publicly like what it was, but there was one piece of evidence just like when they went to do it. I guess not evidence, but just something that really drove home the moral conundrum and just disbelief the father was in that just made me almost pull off the road and throw up because you can't even imagine that your kid would do it. And I think from what I was told, the dad, at least at that time, really did believe that his son had actually done this and perpetrated it and was wrestling with that and it's hard as a human being to not have empathy for that because obviously he didn't pull a trigger or or decide to do anything like that but yeah we'll come back to that one because i do want to ask you about your reporting a little more specifically and you give that

the proper light of day but when one of the big things that happened here was when the the video with with gabby potato was when the video of the police body cam got released what was a couple days before she was actually murdered where they had had this domestic dispute. They're pulled over on the side of the road. I forget, where was that? Moab, Utah. Moab, Utah. And the cops separated them for the night, had them stay in separate hotels and didn't book either of them. But the way it came down afterwards was like they were more investigating her for attacking him. Now, this is just kind of how I look at it. I'm not saying domestic violence doesn't happen from male and from female to male sometimes, but like, let's just be honest, biologically, physically, like, you know, a male can attack a

female and a white at a female cannot attack a male. You know, watching that, I know it's hindsight 2020, but when you first see that, are you like me wondering like, what the fuck are the cops doing here? Why are they letting them anywhere near each other again? Yeah. And that was also like a big turning point in the story because, you know, we didn't know that he was like abusive or, that there was even trouble in their relationship. No one was really saying that. There weren't like friends coming out of the woodwork saying, oh, you know, things were really bad.

Like, we had no idea. And so when that video came out, and also we had only seen videos of them from social media that were like beautiful. Like, oh, my God, like, oh, I want to be friends with this couple. Like, they're amazing. So it was like everything changed in that moment because suddenly there was this other visual now

that has come out that it was like, oh my God, this is a whole different story. Like, there's something very bad. that was going on and we didn't know that and when we saw the video it was like immediately apparent and um i remember like people were other domestic violence victims women were immediately like drawn to that video and they saw so many things that i didn't see like that as a woman who was a victim of domestic violence like they could immediately see things in that video and things she was saying and doing and trying to cover for him and they i remember just on social media

that people were so quickly, they were like going through the video and it all became different after that video. What kinds of that you just mentioned, but like things that she was saying or what were some of the specific things that you were like, oh my God, I wouldn't have seen that. Yeah, I mean. We're pointing out like, oh, it's right there. Just the way that she was trying to cover for him throughout the whole thing, the way that she started like blaming herself, kind of like victim, you know, blaming a little bit.

I mean, if you watch the whole thing, I've gone through it with like experts before who can literally like go frame by frame almost and um and it's become like a police training tool to now because they you know they did a whole report in moab at their police department and you know acknowledged that they made all sorts of mistakes things that they didn't recognize yeah and they could have arrested her by the way that's what i'm saying they were more like talking to her but i actually like you okay man yeah but they i mean in some they you know at one point she appeared to be the perpetrator but it's like then you know you almost wish they had arrested her because that would have changed everything.

If they arrested her, her parents would have, you know, probably found out it all would have come crumbling down. Maybe they would have come out to get, you know what I mean? Like, I wish they would have done something instead of just basically separating them, sending him to a hotel, which was also weird. You're in the middle. I've been to Moab. You were kind of in the middle of nowhere out there.

They were right outside, like, one of those national parks. You send him to a hotel and, like, keep her with the van by herself. Like, that was kind of weird, you know? Yeah, the whole thing was. I didn't, I'm not going to lie and pretend I had a ton of personal experience on how they deal with that type of situation where someone, where two people are far away from home too, but that did seem like, it's got to be a better way to do it than that. When the cops, take someone to the drunk tank or something, you know what I mean? When the cops felt terrible, by the way, because I, I, when I went out there, interviewed the chief and, you know, heard a lot and they feel terrible. I mean, I mean, it was like terrible, like, some of them couldn't work.

work anymore. I mean, this was like they felt a lot of guilt. Sure. And it's so easy to Monday morning quarterback those situations. And there are so many people that go through Moab because it's touristy and beautiful. And there's a lot of demand. And, you know, they could have never known that it was going to end up like this. So in a way, I feel bad for the cops too. Yeah. No, I do, I do have empathy. I there's a huge difference between being evil and making mistakes on your job. Yeah. And it doesn't surprise me that. they feel guilt for that but it wasn't like when you watch that whole thing i forget how long it is but it's not like two minutes i mean it lasts a little while when you watch the whole the whole body cam

it's like they were trying to solve the problem they just seem to have made poor calls on what the solutions were there to do that they weren't there to be like all right what the fuck that we have here they were trying to do their job it's just obviously ended up in the most in the most tragic way for sure that's right yeah i agree with you so And also, that's what really, if I remember correctly, that's what set off the media, the social media firestorm more than ever because now you had the image of the crying girl in the car. She still, when it came out, she still wasn't found at the time. And now people were like, oh, my God, like this is a domestic situation. He killed her.

You've mentioned it a few times, but I think it's important to, like, actually look at it from your perspective of what it was like being in the middle of it. but when you are dealing with this modern-day social media machine of true crime fans, which can be fine, but also go way too far with things. And, you know, personal investigators who decide to make it like their life's meaning to like try to solve this for clicks and views, how do you deal with that? You know, because you're also like you're feeding some of the machine, righteously so with giving the story. But then you also want to figure out like, okay, how do I, how can I play my role

and not have, like, the worst type of people just try to capitalize on this. Yeah, it was weird, especially after the video came out because, like, a lot of social media people, true crime people, like, true crime tourists, some of them called themselves, like, came out to the scene then and were also there every day and would, you know, walk the street and, you know,

I don't remember the bullhorns, like, then they started to get, they'd come out with bullhorns, come out, come out, laundries, we know, they call them the dirty laundries. People started, like, having, like, flowers delivered to their house for Gabby, which became, like, a social media frenzy. So, all day long, flowers would show up. Flower delivery. I mean, I'm talking constant.

Every other minute would be a new flower delivery. And they basically covered the laundry's lawn with flowers. And then they started, like, the dirty laundry. So they'd put laundry baskets on the lawn. And they'd show up because I'd be out there in the middle of night. They'd show up and they'd throw laundry baskets. So it got to be, like, kind of crazy. like just too much, you know?

And, uh, and a lot of these people would stay out there all day and you kind of had to like, because I was on the lawn, you kind of had to like coexist with them. And I've always struggled with this because it's like they, they usually aren't doing anything bad to me. And I have to like, I have to stay out there all the time. So I don't want to really become their enemy like, because they'll make my life miserable. I mean, they, they will. They'll turn on me.

You know what I mean? They'll be behind me every time. I'm doing a news report with a blowhorn or, you know, so I guess it's just, I don't know, I was always like, oh, like, I don't know how to handle. I'm going to be nice to them, sort of, because I just want to kind of keep them at arm's length, you know? Yeah. Those are the ones on the ground, though, which I, and I remember, I'm not going to give

some of it the time of day and give them attention, but I remember specifically some of those people, but you are also dealing with the people who are nowhere near this thing and are taking pieces of like what you report and a few other people report and, like, like, you know, creating dark web conspiracies on the whole thing, which also, you know, when I remember some of those things would get two million likes on TikTok and it's got to impede the investigation. Yeah. No, totally.

It's frustrating. And they'll use clips of your news stories and, you know, use just a little clip to make it seem like one thing. And it's so raw. Like what they're and their theories are so wrong. You know what I mean? Like you just know. you're like I know the case this is but I don't know that they really care I think it's just like for clicks and I think there's also like a segment of them that whatever is the truth they'll do the opposite

like that's just their thing like that's just what they do I think you're a thousand percent right about you know we live in it especially post COVID and I understand the genesis of this but we live more and more in a world of automatic contrarianism whatever is said therefore the opposite must be true yeah And I've said this to him blue in the face. I'm sure people are sick of it. But I always refer to like the universal law of physics for every action. There's an equal but opposite reaction.

I want to live in a society where those actions are like this. But we're living in a society where those actions are like this. And it creates more violence to get to, no pun intended. But, you know, to get to an equilibrium point. And I think when it's happening on things that aren't political, you know, Gag Petito's a tragedy. It's not like a political, it's not supposed to be a political story or anything like that. It just shows you how far ranging that mentality is at every level of our culture now.

Yeah. Yeah. No, totally. I haven't, I don't even know if when I was covering Gabby Petito, I thought of it that way. But I think now that I've done more of these cases, I realize I do think that's what people do. Whatever's happening, let's say the opposite, and there'll be an audience for that. Yeah. How did you, once they found her body and you knew now she was.

deceased and all signs pointed towards the now missing Brian Laundrie as the guy like, you know, how did you still do your job without injecting opinion? And specifically what I mean by that is, of course, it seemed very obvious that he had done it. But we didn't have him in custody. And there was a while where the cops didn't even officially say like he's our guy or whatever. And your job is to report the news and, you know, try to be unbiased. about it. How do you tow that line when walks like a duck quacks like a duck? It's probably a duck. Yeah, I think by that point, um, like I was so, I was so tired by that point. I was invested. I remember I was doing this one live stream. It was late at night. It was dark.

Everyone else was gone. A lot of times it was just me and Louise there because we were on the lawn. And I was doing a live stream on like Twitter. And I remember I was walking down the street in front of the laundry house after they had found her body. And, um, I remember like I was in flip-flops and like gym shorts. And it was like a, I think it was a Friday or Thursday. And I just remember like it hit me. I was being, I had kind of crossed the line a little bit of just being like sad. I mean, of course it's okay to be sad about it. But like, I remember thinking to myself like, what are you doing? Like, this isn't your job. Like you've gone too far. And then I remember looking at myself like in my gym short. Like, you know, it's okay to worry. But I'm like, I'm in

freaking gym shorts and flip-flops. Like I'm a, you know, there's nothing wrong with it. No, but I I just mean, like, I don't know, that combined with, like, me feeling like I was getting too emotional. And I remember this moment of just like, I think you're going crazy a little bit. Like, I think you're just tired and you got to go home for the weekend. So I remember that. And by that time when she was found, I felt a little less of a need to, to, like, stay there. I mean, he had been found.

She had been found. I mean, granted, I was still wondering if the parents were maybe going to get arrested or something. But I remember that was one of the first weekends I went home. It was just kind of like a, you need to, like, chill out a little bit, you know? Like, you're kind of, like, losing it. So, and I think I was also sad. I mean, I had gotten to know our family.

I just became so invested. And then I went back. I remember I went home for the weekend and I went back. And then it became like, people were associating me with the lawn in the house and expecting me to be there every day. Like, in case the parents got arrested. Like, there was, like, this almost pressure to stay there. And I remember after like another week or two went by, I remember telling Luis like, like, at what point do we leave? Like, do we have to stay here?

Like, I feel bad leaving, but I also feel like it was becoming a little, like, you know, when do we cross? Again, like crossing the line a little like, okay, the parents aren't getting arrested. Like, when do we leave their lawn? You know what I mean? Like, it's like, when is the story? And I remember people were like mad about it. They're like, you can't leave. Like, no, you have to stay.

Because it's almost like they wanted justice. and me leaving was like uh i don't know like they felt like they weren't going to get justice or something as weird as that sounds no no yeah right right i think that was just people's emotional attachment like it becomes your literally i used this phrase earlier but it becomes your meaning of life yeah yeah people be like have your notifications on like every time i would go live from out there like they were so glued to it and then it was kind of like you know well i think it's it's done you know Yeah, that was where the news daddy Brian thing was. Yeah, I'm pretty sure.

That's where the news daddy came from. Right. It's like, now you're gonna carry that around forever. Yeah. It's a pretty hard nickname, you know. Yeah, it's not bad, I guess. Yeah, you got a good cult following a female. Yeah, at first I felt kind of bad about it, I'm like, like, like, a daddy.

I don't really know. But then I was like, I just kind of embraced it. I mean, I don't ever like really use it myself, but like at first I was like embarrassed. Like, no, please, no. He does. Nishon, get that merch comes, I mean. And now, I actually thought about like, I, I actually thought about like, I, I, I I don't know if I want to do it, but I thought, like, it would be fun to have merch

and, like, donate all the money to, like, the Gabby Petito Foundation or something like that. But then I'd still have to be selling News Daddy stuff, which is kind of embarrassing. Own it. Yeah. Yeah, but if it goes to, like, a good cause, I mean, you got to be here for it. Yeah. By the way, when you were living in the tent for weeks, effectively, like, where do you shower? Well, I had a hotel.

So I had a Spring Hill suites. Okay. That was the closest thing. So we would go back to the hotel and shower. And, you know, it was more like just sort of our, like, home base. So you weren't like fucking, you know, Tom Hanks and cast away. No, no, no, no. I was going to say, like, you looked like you were ready to go every day.

I wouldn't have guessed that. And we could go. We also, they would let us in their house to use the bathroom to our friends who were renting the lawn from. That's nice. Yeah. And it's so funny. Like, they still live there. And I still stay in touch with them.

And they, the laundry still live there. And they like, they just hate each other. I mean, you know, they hate each other. Wait, the laundries still have not moved from that? They haven't. No. which is super weird to me that's so yeah they got to have no friends i mean yeah for a while i thought they weren't moving because like in you know they got sued by the potatoes and that turned it into

a whole thing and i'm like well maybe they're not moving because there's a law in florida that like you can't take someone's house in a lawsuit like i don't think every state has that but in florida like if you sue someone in florida and you win you still can't take their house so i was like well maybe they're just staying there like just in case they lose like they'll still have their house but now that's over with and they still haven't left did they settle that case they did out of court yeah they settled out of court but like a lot came that's where we found out about them hiring the lawyer early on and the burn you know burn after reading letter all these weird things that all came out through the lawsuit which i think is what the patitos wanted like that was that was there i mean

i don't think a lot just have a ton of money so the main point was just to like make them confess all this stuff yeah that was i'm glad you brought that up actually though because we were talking about oh how would you handle the situation whatever one of the really damning things that I can say goes well beyond what I would ever do as a parent in that situation was when that letter from the mom, the burn after reading letter came out where I believe the line in there literally was, I don't care if you killed someone, I would cover for you or something about putting like a knife and a cake. And there was just really weird. Very strange. Yeah, strange. You know, so that whole dynamic was off, but that's crazy that they still live there.

Yeah, I know. And I still, like I said, I still talked to. to Keith and Debbie. That's hilarious. And they, um, Hey, Keith. Yeah. Hope you watch. And sometimes we'll actually go by.

Like, I saw them maybe like a, maybe like a six months ago a year. Actually, it was a, it was pretty recently. I was driving through there for another story like that part of Florida. And we just swung by to say hi to them. And like, they're just like so nice. But they're always like, they didn't like the laundries before. Because again, they have two pugs. And I guess the laundries didn't like their dogs, which like, who doesn't like two

pugs? Yeah. So like they kind of had a weird thing before this. But now it's like, you know, the whole neighborhood's kind of. turned on them yeah just imagine going out for your well they don't do newspapers anymore but you're going out to get your mail you just like staring each other down i know awkward yeah i did they put a big hedge up in front now the laundries did they didn't have like a hedge before so i guess they learned from the first time around i guess there's a second yeah oh god yeah yeah let's let's hope not

but when when gabby was found and then i guess it was within a few days they found brian's body and it was clear what had happened here, you know, you've been talking with the parents this whole time. Like you said, she had this amazing family and extended family and all that. Obviously, they're devastated. Obviously, we saw that publicly. They went and talked at these press conferences about it and everything. But like, you know, what's that like talking with someone where you've become close to them during a story where you're hoping you're going to be able to find their missing loved one. And now the worst has happened. So they have closure, I guess. but they don't have, whatever that even means,

but the worst possible outcome has now happened. Yeah, I mean, it's hard. Usually I honestly just try to, like, back off at that point for a while. You know what I mean? It's kind of like, what am I going to do at that point? You know, I'll usually send a text or like a call, one, maybe one call. I'm so sorry, you know. And then it's weird now that I've covered, like, more of these kinds of things.

And they're all different, but like, you know, tragedies like. this it's weird how like when you do one now it's almost like you can you can see what it's going to be like for these parents even before they know because i've seen it with the other cases you know what i mean yes which is a really weird feeling yeah and sometimes i'll connect people with um gabby potato's parents like wow yeah like i've done that like two times where i'm like um you know let me put you in touch with, you know, because everybody knows Gabby Petito. So I'll be like, you remember the Gabby Petito case?

And they're like, yeah. And I'm like, I covered that case. I'm like, would you want me to put you in touch? Like maybe for, like, if it's a new mom that I'm talking to, just lost a kid or something. I'm like, do you want me to put you in touch with Gabby's mom? And Gabby's mom has always been cool with that. So I don't even have to ask her anymore.

And I'll give them her cell phone number. Because it's like they can, they're like in this weird club that no one else can understand. Like, yeah, especially with all the media attention. I'm like, if you need help navigating all this, like, you know and then i'll make they'll they'll talk to them good for them yeah doing that yeah yeah they'll do it every time that's amazing yeah you know again i don't know how i deal with this kind of thing but you might think that you know after something like that has happened you go through

this whole thing you just you don't want to ever yeah around that it's got to be traumatic to be around that but for them to like i don't pay that forward or however you would say it to help other people in need, that's, they really are amazing people. They are. And I just interviewed them. I interviewed Gabby's mom and stepmom, Tara, maybe like a month ago. And, because it had been like a, I think it had been four years or, yeah. And, you know, I talked to them so much in between and connect them with people and

talked about their foundation and all sorts of like kind of business, not businessy, but like, you know, not things about Gabby, just like, oh, can you talk to this family? Or they would, they'll also reach out to me because they'll people will come to them with. missing cases and then they'll be like hey can you cover this case oh wow it's not getting any coverage but then when i did the interview with them like a month ago about gabby i kind of forgot like i mean i was even guilty of it like we said earlier people forget how real it is like they were emotional again and i'm like oh my god like i forgot like this is still like so real this is still this is still their daughter like you know what i mean oh of course you never yeah that's the i think that's the

one most unfathomable thing is burying your kid yeah and you forget because they are so strong in public and they're so on the phone about but then i was like oh my god like i got to remember like this is still this is still raw in a lot of ways yeah and they had the support of like an entire nation at the time whatever and just like you said you feeling weird about leaving the tent because the story is mostly happening is what it is and your job is done you know whenever someone dies it's like if you're lucky you have a lot of loved ones people are there for you and then the next week life goes on it's a very strange thing but you know for them to go from that to that you know as far as public support and things like that goes because the world goes on i i can't imagine that and you know it's always

going to it's always a hole there that can never be filled in any way and that's why i'm not envious of the job you have to do on a lot of these cases because you know I know you're a news guy and like you have a job to do and all that but it's very clear talking with you today and I really kind of knew this before you came here was pretty obvious like there are pieces of this you always take home because yeah like these are real people involved you get tight with them you know in some cases and then you're like damn you know and just like you said you talk to him four years later and it hits you again like wow their daughter's gone yeah what do you even say yeah no it's it's true you got it's like you got to remind yourself of that a lot yeah because it's

easy to a lot of people out there will take advantage of these families because they go from being just regular people to thrust in the limelight with everybody wanting a piece of them and uh you know people will just sort of you know take advantage of them for sure it's also like you get strange characters in the middle of it like the lawyers and stuff who do have a job to do yeah the way their job is to give the constitutional right for someone's defense so i i empathize with that but then you know in the middle of like someone being missing the tactics that are used are strange and it's like what's the moral boundary there it's just it's just it's almost too too much for me and try to process yeah and there's people that suddenly show up you know not with the potatoes at all but like

some of the case you know there'll be like some extended family member that shows up that suddenly the family spokesperson you're kind of like and they're always wanting to go on and then they create the go fund me and there's a whole kind of weird dark side for sure to all of this that sometimes comes out for sure you kind of see over and over again and you're like oh you know last question on on the gabby thing just because we mentioned it a little earlier and it's an interesting like i don't know monday morning quarterback thing of looking at it but how like as someone who sees how big this story got literally from the inside how do you look at it when you have a case like this where there's one very innocent life taken and it becomes a phenomenon and everyone's trying to

solve it and they support the family and there's you know there's also love that comes out of a very tragic situation when in fact there are like i was saying there are many other cases to happen every day where people don't get that attention yeah you know because part of it is let's be honest like what can the news story sell what's going to get people's attention if someone gets lost in the hood where a hundred people get lost in the hood all the time yeah you know oh we can't sell that but if some girl from suburbia who is you know a beautiful social media influencer yeah or at that time aspiring social media influencer disappears everything stops like how do you i don't know morally weigh that you know what i mean yeah totally yeah i didn't ever heard of like missing white

girl syndrome i think they call it like people started talking about that like oh you guys only care about like if they're pretty white girl basically, you know? And, um, and, you know, that started popping up during the case, but I was so into it at that point. I was just like, I don't have time to even think about it. You know what I mean? Like, I was obviously doing that. But when it was over, I remember we started thinking about it and talking about it. And again, news nation was really new. And, uh, it did bother me. And it kind of felt like, what defense do I have to this? Like, first of all, I had never covered like missing people before. It was kind of my first, real you know but i'm like moving forward like i almost felt like guilty um and and so i remember

gabby's parents started talking about it too like and so i remember i went to my bosses um along with a producer i work with page and we were like we need to do something and uh we started this missing series because of the gabby patito story on news nation um it started out we used to call it missing in America. And apparently that was like, someone else already had that name. We did it for a while. Then they're like, you need to change the name right away. So now it's called missing. That's your fault. Yeah. Yeah. So, but we do a case every week, sometimes more, and we focus a lot on minorities. You know, we do white women too, but minorities, also men. There's a ton of missing men that just never get coverage because no one cares about a missing man, you know? And so we,

I don't know how many hundreds of cases we've done by now. But I mean, literally every week, Marnie Hughes on News Nation does it. And so that was born out of the Gabby Petito story. Yeah. So that's a nice like, I mean, there's still more we could do, but at least you don't feel like you just turned a blind eye to that. And we've had success stories too. You know, we've had people found. Oh, you've had people found from that. Yeah. And it's hard to say if it's like because of our series, but definitely helps. Definitely helps. Also, even if it just like gets law enforcement and be like, oh, shit, we should look at that one again. Yeah. You know, just gets the wheels turn in. Totally. Yeah, and we do a lot of old cases too. So you call up long,

like you said, you call them up and you're like, we're doing it. I think it kind of, you know, makes them feel a little more pressure. Yeah. And our bosses, like, kudos to them because, you know, there's so much news in the world now. It'd be easy for them to be like, well, let's put the missing series aside for, but like we've done it every single week since Gabby Petito. That's great, too, because it's also like there's a responsibility there. And like, like you said, this was at the beginning of, the very beginning of news nation existing. It's one of the things that put them on the map. Totally.

Pinging forward that way, I think is, I think is great. It's a strange situation to be in because you don't control where people's attention is. Right. But it's also like if something bad has happened and people have attention there, you're going to report on it. Yeah. You know, that's just how it is. Totally.

You know, something like that is really helpful. But like we were saying, you cover a lot of different things. You're on the scene all the time. Yeah. Like, this is like our third try trying to do this because it's like, you know, you're sitting in here and I'm like, oh, good. Someone didn't die this week. Yeah. You know, because you're always going to where it is. But you have been out, as you said, looking at the Charlie Kirk thing. I do want to say before I ask you about this, it's a bizarre case. There is all kinds of like, I don't even know what to call it online with people speculating about this. It is certainly weird. It has been weird since the beginning. I try to be very careful with like where we go with this discussing it publicly. So just like download if you can. Were you there the day?

after or like how sure you were? Yeah, I was there the day of after it happened. Yeah, I was in New Mexico interviewing the governor of New Mexico. I was in her office doing a story about she's a Democrat, a tough on crime Democrat. She called the National Guard, I won't go on a whole tangent, but she called the National Guard in herself. You know how everybody's in these other Democratic cities are mad? The National Guard's coming.

She did it herself because crime was so bad in New Mexico. So I was interviewing her about that just because it was interesting, like, so you're the Democrat who likes the National Guard. You know what I mean? And so it was an interesting story. So I was in Santa Fe, New Mexico, in her office, and she had CNN on when the video started coming up that he was killed. I think at that point, not killed, but just, you know, that had been shot. I mean, if you saw the shot.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was horrible. And it was interesting. She was actually, she's a Democrat, but she's friends with the Utah governor. And she called the Utah governor right while I was in the office and was like, I was going to let you know. I saw this happen in Utah. And I'm thinking of you right now, which is kind of a cool moment of like, you don't see that stuff on TV. where you just think they all hate each other.

You know what I mean? And she's friends with him. They were in some like governor's conference together or something. So what did you think when you first saw that? Like brave new world? I think I just thought and I for I think honestly just to be totally, I was like I got to get out of the governor's office. Like we got to go to Utah. Like that's what my first thought was like just because you know when you're, I mean, she's, we were doing the interview and I was just like I was trying to be polite.

But in my head, I was like, we got to get, like, the F out of here. Like, you know what I mean? Like, how are we getting to Utah? So luckily, there was a flight. And from Albuquerque, nonstop to Salt Lake. So I was there, like, I got there. I think I got there, like, right after the sunset, like that night. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Tyler Robinson is arrested two days later, something like that. It's happened all the Wednesday. He's arrested the night of Thursday into Friday. and it was basically like announced by Trump without saying the name I guess on Friday morning on on the TV yeah when he's first taken into custody and the president has said you know his father saw him and recognized him and turned him in you know where was your head at that point like okay sounds sounds about right or yeah so I had I was out there again working late nights and stuff

staying out there. And I had a source the night before who kind of told me like around midnight that they thought they had the guy, but I didn't have enough information to go on it at all. And it's interesting, some of the other reporters that I know from other networks who were there that I'm friends with were kind of getting the same information, but none of us were reporting it just because like something like that, you're not going to report it unless you're like, you got to have a couple sources and be 100%. But there were definitely rumblings like this was coming to an end.

And then when it was Tyler Robinson, what did I think? I was just like surprised, I guess, that it was just a normal guy, like a normal kid. You know what I mean? I think I was thinking it was going to be like someone, I want to say a normal kid. Just I guess I don't know, maybe I was thinking it was going to be like a more organized thing or something, you know? Yeah, because like it was almost like the tone was, all right, yep, there it is. we got it yeah and then that's where it got weird because first of all there's video of the crime scene immediately being tampered with right afterward which is weird now I know it's a chaotic

situation all the cops like ran and went with his body totally understandable but you know there's people putting stuff in their pockets there's a couple cops left behind that are like letting people video right there for a while and then being like, oh, you should leave. And then within days, they're paving over this whole area and changing the whole... That was interesting. And I noticed that when we were out there. That was, they were like immediately, like, there were like back hose and stuff. And I was just back there last week and went back to the spot. And it does look like they just, you know, put new pavers in that area. But yeah, that was kind of strange that they did that quickly.

Have you ever seen anything like that? No. Well, no. I mean, it was kind of weird. You remember they tore down the house for Koeberger? Yes. That was also weird. I mean, that wasn't like the day after, but that was kind of another weird.

Like, why are we tearing down the house when there hasn't been a trial? But no, it was, I remember wondering what they were doing, too. Like, I didn't understand. And I, I mean, I don't want to add to the conspiracy theories because, but, but, but, Even when I went back last week, I was like, wow, that was a lot of, like, construction equipment for just, it didn't look like they really ended up doing that much. It was just kind of like they replaced the pavers and concrete in one area. Yeah. It just, like, if it's not some sort of conspiracy thing, some of the things, the actions that have been taken since then are just horrible PR decisions because they feed all these things. And, you know, the 306 bullet thing, I am not a ballistics expert, to be clear. I want to be very clear on that, but I know a lot of guys who are, and they're like, you know, I'm going to have someone in here in a month or two who's going to go through this, who's a full-blown expert. And it's like a 30-06 bullet from 200 yards is going to blow the top half of someone's body off.

Now, obviously, it was a violent hit, but his head didn't come off. It hit the carotid artery and a couple other in there as well. but like everything else was intact yeah and so right away when they're telling us that it's weird and then they found the gun you know like right below there and the wood the bush is sort of a wooded area yeah yeah it's like how did he get it off there that easily and the lack of transparency on the investigation hasn't helped especially after like you know i guess it was charlie's producer the guy Andrew Colvette who was like his right hand man you know he sends out this tweet where he's like I spoke with the surgeon and he said Charlie's neck was like Superman, you know, the bullet

somehow didn't go through with anyone else that would have gone through. It's like the magic bullet all over again. It's like, by the way, even if for some Godforsaken reason that were true, before you press send, count to five and just read that one and say, how's this, how's this going to play? You know what I mean? No, I get it. Like he voluntarily did that. And I don't know.

I mean, like you said, I got to be careful. You have to be careful. I don't know. I went there last week and I sat down with the sheriff and the undersheriff of Utah County who are part of the investigation since the beginning. You know, they're the local guys, the cowboy hats, good guys. I like them. And they went on camera with me, which they haven't done a lot of interviews.

And they do not think this is a conspiracy. And they know everything. And they're like, look, if you don't trust the FBI, if you think, don't try, they're like, we're just, I mean, they're just two local guys. And everybody knows them in town. the one guy used to be sheriff and now he's the other sheriff then there's the new sheriff who's been like sheriff for like 10 years um why wasn't there an autopsy that's what i want to know yeah i don't know they didn't have an answer for that no did you see have you do you know how

he got on the roof i don't look up if you can pull it up pull up my twitter this is kind of interesting i um i did a video so i wasn't able to get up on the roof the first time i went but now it's all been You know, this last week I was able to get up there. Oh, yeah, there you go. Is this it? Yeah, that's it. Okay. So.

Let me give this a little volume, Brian. Yeah, I mean, you don't have, if you, have, it's just me talking. I was able to get the shot off. So this is my first time actually seeing the roof for Tyler Robinson, according to police, was able to get the shot off. This is, uh, it was all closed off, obviously, when I was here last. They've got this fence up now, but you can still get pretty close. And so it appears he was.

went beyond this fence, which wasn't here, and then all you had to do is jump over this little railing here, and then walk out onto the roof, and then on the other edge of the roof is where you could see the courtyard. But I guess before I saw this, I thought like he had to go some sneak way to get up here, and there's just, you see this, this is just a big open walkway, like where students walk back and forth between the buildings. I presume he just came up here, walk to the edge here and then again, this fence wasn't here and you could literally

just pop over that other railing and then boom, you're out on the roof, walk a little bit and you would have a clear view to the courtyard. In that surveillance video when you see him leaving and running away across the roof that's this area over here

and then he jumped off over in that area over there. He jumped. Again, you can recognize that from the surveillance video and then ran across the parking lot here. And, um, and then he went over into the wooded area over there, which is where they found the gun. That's about as close as I was able to get last time I was here.

But it's really interesting seeing it from this perspective again. The thing that surprises me the most is just how easy it was for him to get on the roof. Yeah, I guess I thought he had to like climb up on the roof or something. And for, for him to, for there to be that event there and for it to be that easy to, get on the roof um really surprised me yeah that i didn't i didn't realize there was like a walkway right yeah that makes a lot of sense for him to be able to like get away pretty quickly as well yeah because there is the surveillance video now i i do i think it's all blending together i think they it literally you see him like climb onto the ledge and then hop down yeah and then it's

and it's hard you're not making that up and it's hard because he kind of dropped something that is apparently the gun first but you it's blurry that that's one of the big things that i was asking the sheriff about like can you say for sure that you can't fully see the gun yeah and you know it's a rifle and you wouldn't fit in a backpack even if you took it apart i actually did a story it would still that's the part that i'm a little like and he's like no you can't see it easily but it is there and he dropped it and you do it looks like you drop something but you can't fully see it in the video right what what did they say i'll come back to the autopsy thing but there's a lot of other things before that what what do they say about the

the bullet and you know the argument about whether or not that bullet could have ever left that little of damage they think that it's possible that it's not you know didn't ring any alarm bells to them that's interesting yeah i really got a hat like when i when i have my one guy in here that's that's where i'd rather i don't want to comment on that myself yeah i don't it's The thing with the conspiracy thing to me is like, and again, I don't know. I mean, that's the way I go into this. I mean, I wouldn't be up on the roof looking around if I wasn't trying to, you know, so I'm not saying people are wrong when they think that or right.

I don't know. This is just the way I think about it. You know, I've talked to the sheriffs. You've got Cash Patel. There are so many layers. You've got the campus police. Like, if it's a conspiracy, like, is everybody lying or like, is it who's pulling, who's pulling the strings here, you know? I don't think it would have to be that way.

I think a lot of, you know, first of all, people call every single thing that ever happened in conspiracy now. And I think that actually hurts, you know, hiding real conspiracies because like that is not the case. There are plenty of things where, you know, whether you like it or not, it's not a conspiracy. It's just like bad people did bad shit or, you know, people were careless or something like that. But then there are there are the real ones. And there's some where when you look at something like this, when you can create a, you know, to use the joker term. Like in the middle of everything where people don't know it's coming, even though people have their phones up, people are jumping around like this, creating different angles, different perspectives, illusions, if you will. I use that word very deliberately there.

It gives room for a lot of people, say, in positions of authority, whether that be campus police, regular police, sheriffs, to not have anything to do with it, legitimately not be in on it, not even have an inkling about it. But just because of the shock factor of what happened, all the little teeny things that three or four people were in on, you don't notice it or it looks like it could be something else. You know, that's why I do think people jump into conclusions with watching people reacting as going too far. Yeah. Because people react in all different ways. You know, there's people who freeze. But it's a state case. That's the other thing.

I mean, the FBI is investigating help with it. But it's state charges. I mean, it's a local prosecutor. Right. um i just i don't know it's it's utah where they're kind of like i don't know like again these sheriffs were kind of like i just got the vibe like they wouldn't be afraid to be like they would want to tell their people the truth you know what i mean they're kind of like on their own out there they they don't really care about the feds you know what i mean like i felt like they're annoyed

by the feds yeah so i just i don't know but i wouldn't someone be sounding the alarm from inside law you know why why would they be in on it why would the local prosecutor be in on i don't think they would be yeah that's my point yeah i don't think those guys would be what i do want to know this is where it gets more to how they've been dealing with the case after the fact is what the details here are here of his lack of cooperation because Tyler robinson turned himself in which by all accounts that's how it went down that's what my guy my guy like broke down exactly how it happened and that appears to be what it was and then suddenly you know know the governor comes out and says but he's not cooperating that was a little weird is it just

when you talk to these guys were they saying like you know he's a killer that had to change a heart on admitting guilt because the death penalty is there well maybe they didn't so they were careful about some things they would say i mean it's an ongoing case so like there was some things they were going to talk about like him and stuff i mean he's in their jail and they told me he's getting a lot of letters and stuff which is kind of i guess not a surprise but in terms of specifics they wouldn't go there. But it would make sense. I mean, once you get a lawyer, they're going to tell you not to talk anymore. I mean, if he gave the confession with his dad and the family friend, you know, once he got in, you know, that part doesn't, I don't think is that weird that he

stopped talking. Also, once you realize, like they're trying, also once you realize these people are trying to kill me. Right. But like he knew he knew he'd be facing that when he turned himself in. probably but do you think you really thought all of that through i want to be careful because i don't want to say like what my guy said yeah i'll i'll say this the way the way he was described to me was dead to the world interesting dead to the world and there was a very uh clear piece of evidence on that which is not how the father was described the father was described the father was as emotionally, completely distraught. And when you say he was described as dead to the world, Tyler Robinson.

Lights are on nobody's home. Like he was given something to be dead to the world? No, no. They didn't say that. Okay. I mean, that's a whole other way. Yeah. Maybe.

But that's not what more like, you know, people to give you a thousand yards there. Mm. And they're just not there. Yeah. That's. Yeah. Yeah. Well, people also, you know, I've seen it.

People have psychotic breaks. Yeah. I mean, you've just done something that is crazy. I mean, I don't know. You know what I mean? Yeah. But, yeah, I mean, look, like I said, I don't know. The text messages are weird, obviously, which the sheriff acknowledged to me.

You know, the text messages between him and the... And you're taking the words out of my mouth. I was going to ask you what you thought of those. Yeah. It sounded like my grandfather was. So I guess I just wanted to say, I'm not trying... I don't know. Like, I'm not trying to make the point one way or the other.

It's... You know that Steve Bouchemi, me? where he's dressed like a kid and he's like, hello there, fellow children. Yeah. That was the vibes I got from... Very weird. Right?

And even the sheriff admitted that to me. I appreciate that. He's like, yeah, you know. So how does he explain... In admitting that, like, how does he explain it? He doesn't know. I mean, he's like, they talk to each other strangely, you know? Mm.

And also the, you know, the roommate slash lover, you know, where is gone. We don't know where. maybe witness protection program. Yeah. So that's... Don't you think like a little transparency, not saying like, oh, he's in our witness protection program,

but be like, don't you think you could come out in press conference and be like, by the way, we know exactly, we're talking with him. We know exactly what, they've made clear since the very beginning that he is not a person of interest. And they kind of went out of their way from the very beginning to say that over and over again, Which makes me think that he's like very cooperative and they are kind of trying to protect him.

But also how do you say that when he's on these texts, you know, in my opinion, when you read the transcript of the text not like admitting or in any way that he was a part of planning it, he does seem to be like, oh, you did this. But there's also an aspect of like you could be saying like, oh, you mean you did this? I'm going to write that. But also like they dress up in these like furry costumes. I mean like it's kind of like we're trying to under. I don't know how to understand. understand these people like you know what I mean it's strange yeah like they might just be really weird that is certainly you know certainly impossibility and I and I appreciate you looking at this

through the lens of like yeah because it's also like a brave thing to do in today's society where everyone wants to run to the worst case possible like craziest scenario yeah looking through to the lens of like all right what are the best who am I talking with what are the best facts I can get you know as the story changes I'll change but you really got to show me stuff that's more than like look at that guy doing him. And this is one of those stories where for me, I feel like my role is like I will get like I put out the interview with the sheriff, got it on video,

put it out, went up on the roof. Like I will put out what I can find out, but I'm not like you can do with that what you want. Right. You know what I mean? Like I don't, I'm not going to tell you innocent until proven guilty with Tyler Robinson.

Like you know what I mean? There's certain cases where it's like I feel like I'm trying to show people like the outcome or the reason or who. Who's your response? But like with this one, it's like, I'm just going to give you the information and people can decide how they want. You know what I mean? I think that's very smart. Yeah. And also he's not been, I mean, he's going to go to trial probably. Like, it's not my job to say this guy's guilty right now. That's not the way. That's correct. Yeah. Yeah. Like you're doing it like by the book. Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate that. Yeah. Because like, God damn, the amount of, you know, whether it's purposeful or unpurpurposful, but like jumping to conclusion as ever. evidence, which I would describe as like, it will probably end up being misinformation around this. There's a lot of that. And it's very hard for me to keep track of all of it. I'm not even going to – there was one thread I was looking at yesterday.

And I'm like, what proof? And it was trending like crazy on this case. I'm like, what proof is there of that, though? It just sounds like people are looking at a guy's face. You know what I mean? And it was bad, too, like just when I got there and when Cash Patel first put out that tweet, remember when he first – I mean, this whole thing got started off a little messy. When you're dealing with the kind of thing that is clearly people are going to be on edge

and there's going to be conspiracies, it's like you've got to be really careful. That wasn't a good start. I appreciate trying to be transparent. Yeah. But you have to make, in my opinion, a call between do I want to be the chief tweeter or do I want to be the chief of the FBI? Mm-hmm. You know, and like the way he even worded that, my friend Ken Klippenstein actually,

shout out to him spotted this right away. It was like an hour or two after the shooting. Remember like the Georgian thing at the beginning? They're like, we have a suspect in custody. He used the word subject instead of suspect. But to the average person, it was like a quick announcement like running to the, running to the tweet going, look, we got someone. The FBI's on this, whatever. And Ken was like, they said subject, not suspect. So now, you know, he had to quietly two hours later be like, oh, that person's been cleared. It's like, dude, you know, you don't have to give me, I appreciate it, you don't have to give me a play-by-play when you don't actually have information yet. Yeah.

Which the George Zinn thing was kind of weird because that guy apparently just goes to like political events. Yeah, he's just a whack job, it sounds like. Right. And then they got him on like CP. It's like child porn or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that, that part's like a little weird. But he has a 25-year track record of being.

Yeah. Oh, they said he shows up to the city council meetings. he's like just like everybody seems to know that he's just like the crazy person in town that was the vibe that i got right so that's that's what the sheriffs i guess kind of yeah yeah yeah so he's not a suspect in relation to the case in any way at this point you're saying anything i've seen no okay now now i i got on the phone with joseph scott morgan three days after this has been on my show three three four times before great guy he's he's the death investigator yeah you want to know about forensics you want to know about the process in any state he's going to walk you through it

like it's a fucking tom clancy novel of course but one of the things that was a little weird to me at first was i think so he's killed on wednesday and then friday social media posts went out some of those posts like show his wife with the casket and all that and you can deduce from previously seen news video that those pictures that were taken with her around the casket were taken around midday on Thursday. So really less than 24 hours after he had been killed. And what's clear looking at what they showed to the body is that he had been embalmed and he's in a casket. So I was like, is that a little weird that a guy was killed less than 24 hours before and his body's already embalmed and prepared for transport? So before I like said anything, I call up Joseph and I

said, am I crazy? And he said, no, you're not crazy. But here's why it works. And he proceeded to walk me through like hour by hour, the Utah system of, you know, possession of a body for an investigation afterwards. And he was like, I can't tell you the exact hour it would have been in Salt Lake City, which is apparently where they do all of the autopsies and full-blown breakdowns after a murder has occurred in state. But he's like, it would have been somewhere between, say, 9 p.m. and 11 p.m. local time if he was killed at 12.30 p.m. local time and pronounced dead by 2 p.m. local time. They would have gotten the body to Salt Lake City at that point. He named me every person that would have been in the room, literally by name like he knew some of them and what the legal

requirements were. He walked me through exactly how they would have done the autopsy, which I will fuck up if I try to explain, but it involved like where they put specific tools into areas of entry with the bullet, go through charting stuff. And he's, and I'm like, how long does that take? And he's like, a few hours, you know, for a case like that, he knew exactly where the bullet had gone. And he's like, this is what they would have had to do. They would have had it done. He's like, by like mid-wee hours of the morning, which means he's like, do you understand

how funeral parlors work? I'm like, no, Joseph. I really don't. He's like, okay. So they have a, the family gets a funeral parlor in Arizona where they're from. And funeral parlors work like florists in a lot of cases. So if someone's in another state, a florist can call another florist. say what they're going to need to prepare something ahead of time.

So he's like, their local funeral parlor would have called the local one in Utah and said, here's what we need just to prepare the body initially before you get it here. It would have been within their possession by wee hours in the morning. They would have had that done in a few hours and it would be ready for transport, which all, once he brought, this was like 33 minutes of him. It made sense. And I was like, okay, great. I appreciate the explanation.

Then they come out two weeks later and they're like, oh, there was no walk tops. and I haven't had a chance I have a full conversation but I'm like that's kind of weird right he's like yeah it's a little weird I mean we all saw him get killed on camera you can see well that's what I was wondering is there a need for an autopsy though

when you when you know what exactly what happened but the video that's taken is taken in like 720P on an eye for the best one was taken you know 30 feet away or whatever you would think and then the body goes down right away you would think you would still want to know the exact angle so that you could cross represent Do you think the family was pushing not to have an autopsy?

Like, hey, we know what happened. Let's get him back. Let's get him back. But the family's not. Because in the moment, you're just like. But the family's not supposed to be involved with that. Yeah, that's true. You're right.

You're right. They shouldn't be. But if someone of that, you know, you got the vice president coming in to take the body back, you got, you know, maybe there was a little pressure there, you know, like we know what happened. Let's just, we want to get them back. But don't they set up these systems to be like on a robotic. assembly line like this happens then this then this like to keep the emotion out of it usually probably but it was something like this you don't think there's pressure from i mean this is again you've got

the vice president coming to take the body like maybe you know i could see it yeah but that doesn't and and you may very well be right that doesn't help when it doesn't help you know what i mean i also don't think they probably knew that you know this was all going to take off the way it did with all, you know what I mean? The conspiracies, the, the, the, you know, all the different theories. I'm, you know, at the time, maybe they didn't, you know, you don't think they were going to have to disprove so many things. I got to get you back on X.

Yeah. Because I, that would have been my first thought, like, I guess you're right. It was pretty immediate. I would have been like, how do I make sure if I were in charge of the investigation, I'm like, how do I make sure we are transparent on the right timeline, meaning like, let's send out a tweet just to send out a tweet but we get everything followed by the book because this was you know it was a political assassination he was a political commentator there's nothing illegal about that he was practicing his first amendment right and he was killed but it all they weren't

following it by the book i mean because like again back to that tweet from cash patel that was a big mistake yes you know if they were following by the book that would not have happened i agree you know and clearly he uh you know that you know that you know that you know that they wanted to calm everybody down quickly. They didn't do that very effectively. Yeah, no, the opposite. Yeah. Yeah.

But these guys that you talk with, like you said, it's a state case. So they're handling it. It's a state case. I think people will forget that. It's a state case. You know? The governor, I mean, not that he's like a prosecuting the case, but I don't know. I just, again, I don't know.

But it's just hard for me to imagine that they're all in on it. I don't think that's, that would be the case. in any scenario like i said so they all got tricks too i think if there is something more surreptitious here and there might not be it might be tyler robinson right was genuine was genuinely upset about charlie kirk's beliefs disassociated whatever it is yeah and shot him that may very well be the outcome here but i'm saying because of the mistakes they've made in the process and actions have been taken since then i fully understand why people are like what the fuck is going on here and And no, I do not think many people would be in on it at all.

Like if you look at a famous one like Kennedy, people say like, oh, the CIA killed him. I agree. There are people at the CIA that knew about it. The CIA had how many thousands of people working there at the time? How many people you think knew about that? Two, three, that's all it takes. You know what I mean? But then they say the whole place was responsible for it, which I understand that.

But like the assumption in your head becomes, oh, everyone in the rank of file knew this was going to happen. No one fucking knew that was going to happen. And, you know, I don't think the sheriff in Utah would be sitting there like, hey, they're going to kill Kirk today. Yeah. No, not for a second. But there are people, unfortunately, that think everyone's involved. And that's just not. And there are a weird thing.

I mean, like I said, I mean, even the roof thing I think is weird. I get that he's not like a, you know, a presidential person. You don't get the same level of security, but that it was that easy to get on the roof. Yeah. With a straight shot. And you've got all the security around Charlie down on the ground. but like no one thought, like, I mean, and it's interesting when you go there,

it's a really, it's a beautiful campus, by the way, but where that little amphitheater is, where this was going on, I mean, there's like, you can get up on roofs all around. It's like, it kind of feels like the perfect place. Like, they would never have a presidential rally there. You know what I mean? Like, it's like the perfect place to have like a bunch of snipers.

Like yeah, that part is weird to me. To actually, to defend his security on that front though, like you said, it's not a president coming in. They are paid. there to be security. But the way I've seen it, maybe I'm wrong about this, the security arrived all with him. So, and I don't know what their normal protocol was, but it didn't seem like they were security that did like pre-area checks on a radius. And you wouldn't think they would. I mean, look, like they say people are more famous in death sometimes, you know?

Yes. And I knew, of course, I cover Charlie Kirk. Most people I know knew who he was. But, you know, if we were talking about this before, does Charlie Kirk need a pre? They probably didn't think they needed that level of, you know, like. I agree. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I think they walk up with them and they're checking in the immediate area. But I mean, shit. And people can run a whole down rabbit hole with this.

They didn't even check 300 yards out for Trump. Yeah. I was running for presidency. Right. You know what I mean? So it's like how far, even if he has beefed up security, which he did, like, how far does it really go? I think that's where there's more of a simple explanation of like, well, they wouldn't have done that. But he did have a perfect shot.

It's sinister when you see the one cell phone shot looking out before he's killed and you see a little figure moving up there. I probably wouldn't have seen that if I were taking that video because you're looking at all the people. Yeah. Right in front of you. Once again, everything is hindsight 2020. I just wish they would have handled more of this by the book because they're feeding a lot of this stuff. And it's going to be interesting to see if Tyler Robinson ends up in any way cooperating or something like that. Yeah. Well, the good thing is if he goes to trial, and I've covered a lot of trials, you know, everything comes out.

Yeah. So that'll be a time where we can really, you know, oh, we can't talk about this. We can't talk about that. We'll see everything that they have. Yeah. It would be interesting if his boyfriend testified to. Yeah, that would definitely get a lot of attention. I imagine they, he will have to. As a state case, will this have cameras in the courtroom? Yes.

Yeah, they have cameras in Utah. That's why we've seen, we've seen them so far. Okay. Yeah. So will you be out there? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And we'll see if it gets to, you know, I wonder if he'll try to work some kind of deal

to avoid the death penalty. But at the same time, I don't know if they're willing to take the death penalty out the table. I mean, the governor's talked about it several times. I don't think they can. um which would be mean you know he'll probably have a trial yeah real quick Brian I just got run to the bathroom but we'll come right back sure one second yeah all right we're back before we get to Coburger by the way I haven't mentioned this yet today you also started your

own YouTube channel I did yeah literally a couple months ago yeah grats on that thank you you're fucking murdering it it's like that thing blew up overnight I'm not like that surprise but But the hockey stick speed you're growing is crazy. So keep going. I'm trying. It's right. I'm working all the time. Yeah.

I'm editing it all myself. I'm doing everything. You're doing editing yourself too? Yeah. So I'm like I'm just banging them out and just it's fun. I mean it's really fun. I love it. It's cool because I you know but it's it's like I'm not sleeping much.

Yeah. We gotta get some of that off your plate as someone who edited all my shit for years and years Yeah. It takes a lot of time. Yeah. I still do edits but like I have help now with stuff. I think there's something about the. So, like, just because I've worked for, you know, news nation and networks and, you know,

there's so many people involved. Yeah. There's just something, like, about knowing that you did everything that's, like, just feels so good. It's a nice feeling. Yeah. And I mean, I'm sure I will have to give it up because I'll just probably die if I don't. It's something like, I'll just, like, collapse.

But, like, for right now, like, knowing that, you know, it's exactly the way that I want it, it's pretty cool. That is great. Yeah. How do you balance that, though? Because, I mean, you're reporting on stuff full time as well. Obviously, it overlaps with the content you then make. But what's also the rules around that?

Because you report for News Nation, but then you can make content on your own, too. Basically, yeah. And, you know, I'm busy with News Nation. But like you were saying earlier, there's a lot of waiting around it stuff. You know, there's a lot of times where I'll just be sitting in the car for two hours, waiting on a press conference or just watching a house or, you know, at the scene. So I've got time. I do a lot of them in the car.

That's the thing. It's like, it's not as cool as your studio and fancy and stuff. It's literally, it's mostly me in the car, sitting on the steps, or, because I got a, you know, I, I sort of work it in in between my News Nation gig. So it's a little more like rough around the edges. But it's also like you did an amazing interview with one of the Coburg victims sisters. Yeah. It was Olivia Gonzalez. Yeah, yeah. Right. So you're doing a lot of content that also deals with, you know, the people affected with the cases you cover on the ground. So do you have to do, is some of it like you do something for. news nation first and then you kind of build on that yeah yeah yeah for the most part yeah i mean i don't want to you know i most of the stuff of any news i would break on news nation that kind of thing you know but i'll then i'll do it on my channel right after right talk about his news nation it's like you know there's limited time that i have there you know i'm given like a three minute spot or a four

minute spot so i can really dig into things you know afterwards on my channel which is cool but then you do some fill-ins too right i do Were you host shows? Yeah, yeah, I filled in for Chris Cuomo last night. So, like, if Chris goes on vacation or Ashley Banfield or Elizabeth Vargas, then I go and I fill in for them. That's a whole different ballgame, though, too. It is.

You know, when you're doing, like, an hour-long show. Yeah. You got the script in front of you, and then you're going off script to, like, describe things happening in one story to another. It's kind of like a different part of the brain, right? It is. And I'm not like a, you know, I'm like a little road warrior. You know, I'm always out on the road.

I'm always in my car. I'm always a little grungy. So, like, it's kind of weird for me. Like, you know, I put the suit on. It just feel, I feel a little bit of imposter syndrome. Like, you know, like, you know, like I'm, it's cool. But it's cool, yeah, yeah, yeah. But then I just kind of own it.

It's cool. It's fun to do it. It's just so different, like, with all the studio, like, you know, used to being out in the field, you know? Yeah, that place is, I've been over there with Nishon, who was just in here with us for a while. But, you know, the whole, like, news bullpen. and then you got the studio right there and there's lights everywhere.

It's a way different, like it's way different than this. Yeah. In every way. It's definitely like a little bit of a, you know, like smaller stadium feel, if you will. But it's the people that work there. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's weird when you're there, but I got used to it, you know.

And I love News Nation. I believe in the mission, the whole trying to go down the middle. And kind of the things we've been talking about, not tell people what to think. I think kind of old school, you know, of everyone, you know, and I'm not just saying this because you're here. I've talked with Nishon about this. Of all the networks, it seemed to be just off the rails these days in whatever direction, news nation is the closest thing to being like just trying to report on things. And I see people from different ends of the spectrum coming on there all the time. It's really, I hope it stays that way. It's harder too. I mean, it's harder to do that.

people don't realize like it is so much harder to try to be fair and to try to be down the middle and get both sides if you want to just go on one side if you want to just believe one side it's the easiest thing ever click you just get the same people you know what they're going to say you have a built an audience because people want to hear what they believe already what we're doing is so hard um and uh you know and it's it's cool though it's cool because it's also not the psychology of clicks because like if you're, without naming other networks, if you're another network that leans one way or the other, not only are you playing to, you know, exactly what's going on and you're playing to your base, you're also playing, you know, like, hater porn, if you will.

Yeah, of course. Or the other side, which gets you clicks in traffic. It's just people getting mad at each other on social media. Oh, if we had picked aside, you know, we would be growing so much faster. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. You know?

I knew, you know, I was trying to figure this out. I didn't know shit, and I still don't know shit, but it's a couple things you figure out along the way. And I probably, after starting in 2020 and going all in on this, I knew by the beginning of 2022, if you really wanted to blow up in a space that covered anything, news or like culture, just pick aside and go all in. And it's like the second I saw that, I was like, oh, never, I'd have to like lie. Yeah. Because it would go against what I believe in too. I'm not fucking doing that. But you see what people. people do. And, you know, I'm not calling people out, but I'll watch it happen. And I'm like, mm. Yeah. I can't imagine doing that. Like, even with my own channel, even just the way I cover stories, like, I don't know, it's just, I guess the motivation is he want to get rich or I, I,

I'm just trying to think, like, I guess that's the main motivation of doing that. And I guess I just don't have, again, I, I would feel guilt. Yeah. I would feel bad about like putting out bad information or you know what i mean yes of course is you're like a normal good person well yeah i mean it's just yeah i don't know i don't want to go to bed at night feeling bad about that you know it's just not worth it if i don't like i can like make enough money but i don't need you know to right right you also like i've always had this theory you know psychologists will talk about how everyone secretly wants to be famous and i think there's tremendous data to back that yeah like everyone even the people are like i would never want like there's you would love to be

able to be known for something or something like that. And I would love to be able to be known for what I what I do here and things. But I think there's a difference between the gene of wanting to be famous and wanting fame. And they're not everyone wants the second one. The second one is like the types of people who want to have their agent call ahead of time when they're at a restaurant. So the paparazzi is there and they can act like they're pissed about it. But really, that's what they live for, right? And I think that in many cases, a lot of the people who will just kind of go all in on the clicks regardless of what they believe, there's an aspect of them that wants that kind of thing. Like, even if it's hate, they just love the lights and camera and attention.

Even when it's negative. Yes. And you don't have that. I don't have that. A lot of my friends who are public figures that I know in the space don't have that. But then I see other people, I'm like, yeah. Yeah. I think it's finding that ground too of like you want to be, you you want your stuff to be seen i mean that's the whole point of you you you want your stuff to be seen you want people to you want it to have value but um you don't want to cross over into that like you know you get too popular and then you you just lose touch with reality even like coming here to new york city right now filling in for quomo last night like i like i like doing that but i you know even when i'm in the city like you just you don't really know real america if you just live in that

world. Yes. You know, in the studio all the time. Like, I mean, you know, I 100%. It's a bubble. Yeah, it's a bubble. I think it's so like I was, I just got back in last night, went out of town. Like, I think it's so important to get out of here. Yeah. And stuff and see things. The one thing I will say, though, about regardless of where you live is I think people also sometimes choose to live in that bubble. And I don't mean that physically. I mean that from like a curiosity perspective. Like, Like, I was in the definition of a bubble when I lived in my parents' house as someone who's lifelong from New Jersey, you know, a coastal warrior, whatever you want to call it. But I couldn't go anywhere because I had no money to go anywhere.

But as I was growing the profile, I have always just gone out of my way to connect with people who are fans of this show or even haters of this show, like where they're from. I could talk to someone who's in Sweden or someone who's in Morocco or someone who's in Iowa or someone who's in New Mexico and their whole life is different and I'm like genuinely interested in what's important to them and why. Now that's not the same as going there

and understanding that but I find myself when I'm walking down these streets in New York sometimes passing people and just kind of knowing that like oh this is this is their only reality they just know this and it's like dude there's a whole wide world out there you have to understand people don't think like you do.

When it always amazes me that so much media is based out of New York And it's like these people just live in this ecosystem, but claim to understand the whole country and world. It's just weird. It's very weird, man. You got it. You got to, I guess, broaden your horizons a little bit. But you know what?

That's also, we've seen different movements. And I don't even mean this just politically. We've just seen cultural shifts over the last 10 to 15 years where it's clear that a lot of people, like, I'll just speak for within this country are like, fuck that. Yeah. You know, you can sit there. We have the internet now. we can talk to each other right you can sit there and in your bully pulpit and pretend that you understand what's going on but if if you're talking bullshit you're going to get called out for that

and that's why we've seen by the way you know that's i think that's why news nation exists because you're doing something that is against what the business model is supposed to be and yet you're doing pretty well because there's enough people who are like yo fuck these people that are over here and here just telling us what we already know we're going to hear from them. Yeah. And you need people, even though there's so many people online now and so many podcasts, like you still need people to go out and find the information and actually report. That's right. You got to show up and like try to talk to people and beg to get in and then ask the hard questions. Like if you don't do that, you know what I mean? That gives everybody else

something to talk about too, you know? Of course. Of course. But you have, I do want to get to it, you have been covering this, this Coburger thing. Speaking of, you know, having a knock on doors and stuff you've been covering that since i guess 2022 when this happened yeah right yeah right after it happened you know i did a podcast with joseph in july right came out like the day of the sentencing we recorded it right before and so there's at least like we know what the outcome is and brian coberger pleaded guilty admitted that he did this though he did not speak in court and at the end of the day you know one of the most brutal murder scenes that anyone had ever seen is what was at the middle of this and four you know sub 20 year old kids were cut down long before their prime you know

were you there was this another one where you were like on the scene like the next day or or that day or uh no not that soon it was probably maybe 10 days something like that i was still one of the first national reporters it hadn't really gotten full coverage yet i don't know why it was kind of like slow to slow to roll out at first um but i was on i was actually on vacation in mexico and one of the producers I work with us like, oh my God, did you see what happened in Idaho? And so I ended up flying right from Mexico to Idaho. So I think I was there like a week after maybe, maybe a little less.

So were you there when... It might have been less, actually. It might have been like five, six days after. Yeah, you don't feel like a 10-11. Yeah, no, I think it was sooner. Were you there when the police were starting to do their press conferences, I guess, to try to update the public? Yes, but the problem was they only did like one.

and then they didn't talk they were very they didn't talk at all in the beginning um so that was kind of one of those things that just led to the fire of you know speculation and thinking that you know who was different people were responsible and they were very very quiet for the first like couple of probably first three weeks i think there's only like one press conference what was your first thought on this case when you looked at it um like a serial killer type deal Like, I mean, just, you know, it was scary back then because when I got there, you know, no one knew anything about who did it. No one, people, we didn't know if it was a small college town. We didn't know if it was someone in town.

We didn't know if the person was a neighbor was walking around when we were doing our live shots outside. I mean, there was just something especially eerie and freaky about that whole situation in the beginning. Even I remember, like, and I've never done this. There was like a fair field in there. That's where I would always stay. And that was another one. I stayed for like six weeks. When I got there, I never left.

But I remember my room was on the first floor at first. And like, I would never think like this. But I remember like I moved to the second floor because I was just like, this is like creepy here right now. Like even just wondering, like, is the killer watching you when you're out doing your live shot? You know what I mean? Yes. It's a little bit obviously totally different setting here. But I always think about the first season of True Detective and how like the Louisiana, you know,

backcountry was a character the setting itself because it was just so eerie like what is the needle in the middle of this haystack and you know you're out there in idaho it's in the mountains it's a college campus and then a quiet area and there's some needle in the middle of this haystack allegedly where someone's just like a brutal grisly correct killer it's not like new york where unfortunately there's a murder every day yeah you know and there's fucking nine million people just on that one island yeah you know it's a little bit of a different feel it's interesting like just coming off the charlie kirk thing there's something kind of similar like in utah there was there's this vibe there that like things like that don't happen there and that like the people there aren't like really

prepared for it like you know what i mean like and they're just they're really nice in that part of utah i mean it's mostly mormon um and you just i don't know like even like on the campus showing up like they didn't like kick you off right away they're nice to the media it's kind of the same in idaho like they're just you got this sense right away like things like this don't happen here yeah and like they're not really like ready for this did you you know it's also like kids all in the middle of it because like all the witnesses or you know people who were the first ones there at the scene and stuff are literally college kids yeah just trying to have a good time and then coming upon something you know absolutely crazy like how hard is it

at trying to get sources when you know you're going to very, very shattered and righteously scared, you know, very young adults, if you were. Yeah, it's hard. Like, you know, this, there was an Amazon doc that came out recently about it that kind of like painted me in a bad light because there was video of me going to the frat house where one of the victims was in the fraternity, you know, Ethan Chapin. And they got, they somehow had video of me like going to the frat house trying to talk. talk to them. And it made me, I mean, it was a kind of a tricky situation because it's like

these kids have been victimized and here suddenly got these reporters showing up and how far do you? You know what I mean? Like they're their kids still young. And so yeah, it was, it was tricky sort of navigating that. And it was kind of like with Gabby Petito, the attention level was so high. People were so into it. People wanted every little detail. You had people, like people on social media not doing the right thing and reporting all just for clicks yeah and there were decisions you had to make on the spot like we were talking about with gabby i mean i remember being outside the murder house in uh in idaho this is probably a few weeks after and the frat everybody was into these frat brothers like thinking you know they maybe they had something to do

with it you know because ethan was in i don't know why but there was just a lot of attention on the frats and there was like a frat party happening one night while I was out there and I remember it was loud and like you know if I had reported that or shown video of that people would have it would have gone crazy like they're having a party after there

you know what I mean but people were forgetting that they were just college kids at the end of the day yeah like a couple weeks had gone by they were grieving in their own way like they had music on like when you were there you're like this doesn't mean they did but you know what I mean you had to so I never report

to that or I never showed the video because it was like I just knew like people are going to take advantage of this and make it seem like oh these guys these kids they must be involved you know of course I think that was a smart move on your part just because of what the microscope was on it yeah I fully again I can't even comprehend being in that situation but I fully understand that you know once you're five six days out of that and it's still scary you want some normalcy of course your life and like it by the way you feel a little more safe when and you're in a large group of people. So it's like, all right.

You're also in college. Like, I think back to one. You're not like, you're not thinking like an adult of how they would handle something. Yeah. What was the one? Oh, it's so bad. I can't remember her name.

The one, there were two other girls in the house who were not killed. Oh, yeah. You're right, Dylan and Bethany. Right. Yeah. So Dylan, you know, that be, what they did to that girl. Oh, my God.

On social media. Don't even get me to start. They still do. It's insane. Still? Still. Still. Still.

Still. still. There are all sorts of conspiracy theories and theories about her. And she's just been like through hell. I mean, that girl is so, I don't know if you saw her at the sentencing. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. She showed up. She spoke and she is like beyond strong. Yes. And people still won't leave her alone. And she was at that righteously so. Yeah. At that sentencing hearing, distraught beyond belief. And this is three years later. Yeah. Can you imagine what it was? No. Imagine she'll never be the same. You don't, you know, you're a little, you're a little tips. it's late at night, it's a dark house, you don't know what's going on, you're a little frozen, you go back into your room or you go to the basement with your friend. Like, I don't understand why that was so hard for people to understand, not understand the reaction.

I think it just goes back to what we said, like there's always gonna be people who no matter what, that's what I tell people that I do stories with and they're like, I read the comments and I saw it, it's like there's always gonna be, there's always gonna be, no matter what, you could do the most incredible thing in the world,

and there's gonna be a group, of people that come out to say the opposite and say you're bad it just that's how it is yeah and like but that's you know you and i choose to be on correct and choose to do this for a living like if you're not okay with that you're in the wrong game yeah it is i have a lot of empathy for it when it's someone who gets you know through no fault of their own caught in the middle of being at this crazy story and then they have to be put through that yeah especially when they're a kid it's terrible You know, and people question every little thing you do. It's like, obviously, she didn't have anything to do with it,

but you don't know how you would handle that in that situation. Your mind is not 100% there and you get scared. And the next day, like I remember, I think it was, I think I did see the Amazon doc. There were two that came out. I'm pretty sure I saw the Amazon one. But like, that was the James Patterson one? Yeah. Right.

So, you know, they're describing. Some of the other friends are describing the next morning when they're outside the house before, I guess one of the friends are gone in to find the bodies. And she's just like, Dylan was just delirious. Like, what the fuck? I know something bad happened. I don't know why this is so hard for people to put that together. No.

And also, like, it's over. Like, Brian Coburger pled guilty. His DNA was on the knife sheath. His car was, his surveillance video, got his car coming and going. the cell phone tracking guy like there's no i think it just becomes again almost like a board game for people like they just want to play they keep playing the game yeah you know now they didn't catch him though for what like six weeks yeah after that yeah no longer yeah eight weeks yeah yeah

yeah it was december yeah it was like eight almost two months and they're killed on like november 13 yeah yeah yeah something like that yeah so you're on the scene wow this is in limbo yeah and he's not caught yeah i can't remember were there did they have other suspects or anything or any information nothing it was very that that's what kind of was fueling all of this like there was no information coming out police weren't talking we were really hard on the police because at the time we just thought they knew nothing so after a while we're just like what is wrong with these you know we were being hard on them even on tv the families were being hard on them um and there was no rumbling of anything then they finally released a photo of the white hundalantra

which we later knew belonged to coburger so that was the first first real like piece of something we had to go with as you know reporters we were putting the picture out you know people were talking to us oh I know someone in a lot like that was the first like clue we really had from police but then it was still quiet for a while after that were you in touch with the victim's families during that yes yeah what was that like um it was sad I mean it was it was awful as you can imagine and not only awful because they were killed but because they there was, they were scared that this person was still out there. Yeah.

Especially the Gonzalez family I became pretty close to. And I remember I went to their house a couple times. They lived in court a lane, which is like two and a half hours away. So I would drive out to their house to talk to them and just going in there. It was like they were all like held up in there as a family. Like what's, you know what I mean? Like just really on edge. And with them, you know, they were grieving their daughter, but they had kind of transferred

all of those emotions into like focusing on like what happened and just like it was almost like a little nerve center in there they're on their computer you know what i mean they were trying to solve it themselves um and yeah it was just it was an awful awful time what did you think when you first saw a coburger and they announced that that they had somebody well i actually got a tip um so i just assumed like i don't know why in the back of my mind i thought