Julian Dorey Podcast - #364 - Cult Victim EXPOSES Murderous Psychotic “Guru” & his Master Slave Fantasy | Sarah Edmondson

Episode Date: December 9, 2025

SPONSORS: 1) GHOSTBED: During GhostBed’s Holiday Sale, you can get 25% off sitewide for a limited time. Just go to http://GhostBed.com/julian and use promo code JULIAN at checkout 2) MIZZEN & MAIN: Right now, Mizzen & Main is offering our listeners 20% off your first purchase at http://mizzenandmain.com , promo code JULIAN20 3) BUBS NATURALS: Live Better Longer with BUBS Naturals. For A limited time get 20% Off your entire order with code JULIAN at http://Bubsnaturals.com WATCH PART 1 W/ SARAH EDMONDSON: https://open.spotify.com/episode/1LPTVWYaNxJUOZqNCxG0l8?si=9TvPCvZRQ72pLsuhJnF7HQ PATREON https://www.patreon.com/JulianDorey ****TIMESTAMPS in description below**** - Sarah Edmondson is a Canadian actress and podcaster. Edmondson is a former member of NXIVM, a now-defunct s3x cult and pyramid scheme founded by Keith Raniere. PRE-ORDER SARAH's BOOK: https://www.sarahedmondson.com/book SARAH's LINKS: IG: https://www.instagram.com/sarahedmondson/?hl=en X: https://x.com/sarahjedmondson YT: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=a+little+bit+culty FOLLOW JULIAN DOREY INSTAGRAM (Podcast): https://www.instagram.com/juliandoreypodcast/ INSTAGRAM (Personal): https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey/ X: https://twitter.com/julianddorey JULIAN YT CHANNELS - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Clips YT: https://www.youtube.com/@juliandoreyclips - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Daily YT: https://www.youtube.com/@JulianDoreyDaily - SUBSCRIBE to Best of JDP: https://www.youtube.com/@bestofJDP ****TIMESTAMPS**** 0:00 – Intro 01:34 – NXIVM Relationships, Allison Mack, Shady Baby, Rainbow, Missing Woman 09:03 – Keith’s Child with Teen Mariana, Overwhelming Exit Process 18:46 – First Son Triggered Awakening, Kids Forbidden in NXIVM 30:19 – DoS Sorority, Collateral, Obedience, Breach Forms, Division 45:41 – SoP Men’s Group, Master–Slave Vows, Hazing 58:03 – Lauren Wanted Deed to House, Vancouver Made Whistleblowing Possible 1:02:44 – Branding Ritual, Trauma Bond, Not a Tattoo—A BRAND 1:18:19 – Mom Noticed Something Wrong Immediately, Keith’s Initials 1:25:06 – Mark Tells Nippy, FBI Entry, NXIVM Nine Failure 1:31:56 – India Oxenberg, Epstein Links, Victims vs Accountability 1:51:04 – Conversations with Mark, NYT Fallout, Autonomy Shrinking 2:02:58 – How Troy Saved Them, Second Baby Born During Trial 2:14:02 – Keith’s 120-Year Sentence, Forgiveness Journey 2:19:47 – Therapy, Meaning of Life, God Questions 2:25:58 – Sarah's Work CREDITS: - Host, Editor & Producer: Julian Dorey - COO, Producer & Editor: Alessi Allaman - https://www.youtube.com/@UCyLKzv5fKxGmVQg3cMJJzyQ - In-Studio Producer: Joey Deef - https://www.instagram.com/joeydeef/ Julian Dorey Podcast Episode 364 - Sarah Edmondson Music by Artlist.io Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Here's Lauren, who I would do anything to spend time with. Before I committed, she did tell me that I was going to get this tattoo. Lauren wanted to make this a special night. So when we get blindfolded, it drives us somewhere, and I know exactly where I am, I'm an Alice and Max condo. And now we're going to get what I thought was my tattoo is now the brand. Before we even started, we had to say, master, would you brand me? It would be an honor.

First, we were wearing masks because of the smell of the flesh. The first woman I saw was like flipping around on the table like an electrocuted fish. And by the time it got to me, it was having my flesh cut open with a hot iron with no anesthetic and went somewhere else. Honestly, sorry. That's okay. You know, having a three-year-old during this time kind of forced us to get our shit together. You forgive yourself, too? You're a good interviewer. Wow.

Um... Hey guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit the... that follow button and leave a five-star review. They're both a huge huge help. Thank you. celibate monk. Obviously, we know that is not the truth at all, but he's this, you know, in a way, sadistic, sociopathic leader who is using this organization as a front to basically recruit his herm and then hide it behind some of the men that he would recruit as well. They didn't really give a fuck about. And you don't know any of that from behind there. But now that you're deep into the organization, you found your husband, the organization, you married him, Nippy.

You also pretty much put your whole life into it. Your acting career goes on to the back burner and you're focused on this and making money here, putting your own money up to even fund a lot of the endeavors. I would imagine most of your relationships at this point on a day-to-day, friendship-wise, and who you confide in are all people involved with the organization. So who we've talked about Mark Vecene and we can get deeper into that as well but like who were these other people who were you know some of your girlfriends in the organization and and do you think those relationships had any normalcy to them whatsoever the ones that were most normal were the people that I knew before so the my girlfriends that were acting friends in mine that like I brought with me and then we did it together oh they came in they came in and then I'm still friends with some of them those are the most normal but like generally when you have a ranking system with your friendship, it's not healthy. Like even with Mark and I, like, even though we were friends and business partners, he's still above me. Yeah. So there's a power differential there. And there were times, even with my girlfriends that I was close to,

they didn't really know how I really felt if I had a problem because I couldn't communicate that because it wouldn't have been appropriate. It wouldn't have been for the power to announce. Yeah. I couldn't say like I'm not happy with something because as far as everything was everyone was concerned, this is the best thing ever. So if I wasn't, if I couldn't, if I couldn't be like yeah i'm not getting paid like that would have been i could have been a major trouble yeah for expressing like a negative sentiment what so but you were who was the the smallville actress mac alison mac alison mac yeah was she above you no i was above her you were above her which was also weird because i when she they started that acting program she was the teacher of it so now she was my

teacher like teaching me and i just didn't i was like oh they started the acting program too she they So Keith gave her that golden ticket, right? Like similarly, by the way, just to backtrack for a second, like Nancy got given that, you know, the rank of proctor, sorry, of prefect. So Vanguard and Prefect, Prefect. Nancy Solzman. Yeah, head of the school. That's like her, you know, everything she'd ever wanted. She gets to have the power.

That was her power trip, right? And so, like, he did the same thing for Allison, you know, and in many ways for me, too. like I get to be the head of my little school, right? So we each got our, you know, this thing that we wanted. And then I, so I answer your question, I have my girlfriends. I had a couple people in the company that were, I felt close with. So Barbara Jusky was one of them. She was the woman I just showed you that was on.

The one who died of cancer. Died a cancer. She was somebody that I could also confide in also because she didn't like Claire very much. So I felt like I could be honest with Claire Bronfman. Yeah. And then the other person I was closest to was Lauren Salzman, so Nancy's daughter. So she married us. she was our son's godmother.

She was probably the person I would go to the most for like if I, you know, if like Nippy and out were fighting and I needed like, you know, someone to help us. She would, she or Nancy would like, they did this thing called arbitration, which was like mediation, like couples counseling. Very Scientology of them. I know, I know, super Scientology. So she knew like everything that was going on for me and, which is a weird power dynamic also because she's my best friend, but she's also my therapist.

She's also the head of education. So if I'm going to get promoted in any. She's above you She's above me Yeah, she's above me So if I'm going to let go Anything that I'm going to do to grow She's got to approve

But so you meet her in the order You didn't know her before the organization No No Yeah Looking back on it Obviously we know she was a part of this cult And did some bad things and all that

When you just look at it on a personal level When you first met her Obviously she's above you Empower Dynamics But Looking back on it now was it a normal somewhat normal relationship building endeavor or does it seem dystopian in hindsight there's a mixture of both like Lauren would come to Vancouver and like we'd go get her nails done

like women do right and we'd shop and go drink macha and go for a walk on the seawall and that was very normal but dystopian in that I mean it wasn't honest because she couldn't As far as I knew, she was single. You know, I didn't know that she was part of, you know. So, like, she couldn't, it was a very one way. Like, in retrospect, it was like, that must have been a very hard relationship for her. She couldn't tell anybody what she was going through. Just like I couldn't.

She couldn't either. Yeah, she's a part for people out there. She was a part of Dawson, you know, Keith's whole her rem. But would you talk about, like, would you talk about dating or stuff like that? There was times when I would be like, you know, because we were the same. same, she was a year older. So, you know, I was having a child. I had a child late. Like, Nippy and I had Troy when I was 36, which is not that late for the world, but like, you know, it's later in life. Yeah. And then I had my second child at 42, which is definitely late.

Yeah. And she was year older. And I remember like that being, I think being really hard for her because she wanted. She wanted kids. She wanted kids. Yeah. Did you, I didn't ask you that earlier when we were talking. Did you always want kids? Always wanted them. Yeah. So when you marry nippy you're like we're gonna start a family and yeah there wasn't a thought of like well we're in this thing maybe we can't no no 100% that was something we talked about okay he's he's one of five and so he like if we'd started early we probably would have had more but right yeah that shop's closed did did there's always adoption yeah that's true did did uh did having a a child well obviously it changes you but did it change any of

your perspective on what you were doing for a living? 100%. So having Troy, I mean 2014, I think it was the beginning of the end for me because my values priority shifted again. Values priority. Remember like the hierarchy, we talked about earlier? Now my family and being a mom was more important. And so I would choose that.

And I missed out on certain things like that I would normally have never missed out on because I was at a baby. What did Keith think of that? Well, you know, he had, I don't know if you know this, but he had nicknames for people that were kind of like little digs at their issue. And Lauren, for example, was for Lauren because she would be suffering, like she'd be morose and not happy. And that was his way of being like, you got to get, you know, get on the path.

My nickname, my son's name is Troy. So he called me Mother of Troy. And I at the time thought it was just kind of like, oh, Mother of Troy. But I think it was his dig. He had all these women around him who were waiting to have his baby. This is what I found out after the fact. I didn't know this then, right? But all the women in his harem that were his spiritual wives were my age, if not a little bit younger.

I was somewhere a bit older too who wanted to have kids. And he had promised them children. But they had to like, you know, get in line or work their shit or whatever. And Lauren was one of those people. I didn't know this until the trial that she'd been, he was dang. Remember people dank? Yeah, yeah. He dangled, you know.

Did he ever have kids? Yes, yeah. So two crazy stories. There was one, there was one woman who disappeared when, and I don't remember the timeline it's in the book, who was like one of his, he was like his legal liaison who like disappeared. Like I remember I go back and forth and one day I was like, where's Kristen? And I'm sorry, I'm telling the story out of order, backtracked to a few years before that, a baby appeared. in the scene. And I was like, where's this baby from? And Barb Jusky, the woman I just told you about, had said that her friend from Michigan and childhood died in childbirth, and she, like,

and inherited this baby. And now, like, she was the godmother in no show. She was going to adopt this baby, but the whole organization was going to raise her, raise him. The organization was going to raise the baby. Yeah, like, I know. And Kristen, this woman that was Keith's legal woman, kind of like stepped up to do that because she didn't have a baby of her own. and then Keith created up, this is a hole, okay, there's so many rabbit holes. It started a rainbow, which is a rainbow multicultural garden, which was like a program for children to learn many languages as they were being raised, so they'd be children of the world and not like American or Russian or Chinese or Hindu,

whatever, they'd be rainbow babies. Also very Scientology. Yes. So that was an experiment, which I dabbled in. We had a nanny who spoke Spanish to Troy, but I wasn't like full. Rainbow. Because by the way, it was $25 an hour to random people that would get $10 an hour and the other $15 would go to the Rainbow Organization. So I was like, I always thought that. That was one of the- Listen, money laundering is important.

But this is one of the things that was going on. Remember I told you after Troy was born when things started to unravel for me? I was like, wait, why would I spend $25 an hour? And part of that's going, like, what's it going to? And like, anytime I question that, I'd get in trouble. So I just ended up paying like my own Spanish-speaking. nanny to help me with Troy. Because I thought the idea of having a different language is great. And, you know, that's fine. In theory, that's great.

In theory. Sidebar, I think he was trying to separate children from their mothers to create a non-attachment so that they'd become sociopath. That's just my theory. I think you're a thousand percent right about that. Yeah, because these nannies were supposed to step in, like, from birth. He called you son of, he called you mother or Troy. Yeah.

Which, as you said, is a dig. Yeah. It's a dig that you're a mom of a kid that he, doesn't, that he thinks is going to pull you from the organization. So what would be better for someone's psycho like that than to pull him from you and make him a little fucking demon? Yeah. You know?

Sadly, it makes all the sense in the world. Yep. So, what were we talking about just before that? We were talking about, Rainbow. Oh, yeah. Okay, you asked me about the child. Yes, changing you and your view on the organization. Yes, but you also asked me about the kid.

Long story short. Oh, yeah, his kids. Yeah, this kid and this woman, Kristen, one day I'm like, where's Kristen? Where's Gailen? These little kid. And Lauren said that she went crazy, kidnapped Gailen, and she's living on the streets. And I was like, what? Like, are we looking for them?

Like, what's happening? And like, yeah, she just lost. Like, so what it was what I was told is that she, like, she left. Now, keep in mind, I'm going back and forth to Albany. So I don't know when this happened. I wasn't there when it happened. But all I know is that one day she's there and one day they're not. And no one really seems to be concerned about them.

Is this before? or after you have Troy? I don't remember. I'd have to look at the timeline. Around that time, maybe a little bit. I don't remember when Kristen left. Because it'd be interesting. Your biological evolutionary instincts have now kicked into gear

having a kid of your own. So you're thinking about other kids in relation to safety. 100%. The way you haven't before, if that were the case. 100%. The end of the year wears everyone down. Long days, short nights, too much caffeine.

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Some exclusions apply, see site for details. The other person he had a kid with, so I'm going to jump ahead in time for a minute. I leave. We do the whole whistleblowing thing. Yeah, we'll get to that. Yeah, well, we'll get to that. In that time, we left, a bunch of people left with us. And they still had one more V-week after us, Fengarde Week, and it was like 80 people show up.

And at that V-week, he announces that he's having a baby with Mariana Fernandez, who is one of the three Mexican sisters that had come over as teenagers. That he essentially abducted and forced into sex slavery. He had sexual relationships with all three sisters. We now know from the trial. When they were underaged. Yeah. And so Mariana is, I guess she's an adult. I mean, she's in her 20s or 30s at this point.

But people told me who were at that V-week, like, you know, a bunch of people just left. High-ranking people, Mark Fissente, Sarah Minson, Nippy, a bunch of people have left. There's been this big fallout. And now Keith is going up on stage and saying, hi, I'm now having a baby with Mariana. But wait, you were celibate. But no one's talking about that. Like, he's publicly telling the community that he's going to have a baby. There's an emaculate conception.

His is magic sperm. I don't know. Fought the good fight. Yeah. made the joke sidebar all these cults we talk about a little bit culty like every single dude that's like running these things

has some sort of like sorry magic penis that's gonna like they always like what the fuck these cults are run by dudes that would drive like one of those fucking four by fours that's 20 feet off the ground that just screams like I have a small penis and so

it would make sense that they have to show off their some form of their endowment or a above you endowment to, you know, compromise or whatever it is for their lack of endowment, I would imagine, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Did that testimony ever come out?

Well, we talked about him in that way? Apparently, he was, he was hard time keeping it up. That's what we found out. Sorry to hear that, Keith. Yeah. There's a pill for that if you need it, buddy. Shit. That's all right.

Oh, God, I'm still afraid. He deserves it. It's okay. Yeah. I'm fully aware. that there's like so much more to cover of how like in the last few years and I'm trying to like pace myself about what we can we just yeah yeah just we'll go step by step it's all right don't worry about it all right I'll be I'll be the one you decide I just have to say like

you know most people book me like if I'm doing an interview it's like an hour and like this last chunk of how I wake up and how I get out and everything is so complicated yes there's so many things like this happened and but to understand how that happened you have to understand what was taught to us like eight years before and like how the curriculum and how the indoctrination set up this to make it okay for me to do this and it's like it sometimes it hurts my brain to try to have to like set it all up so i just have to say up front like it's very complex and it's 12 years of you call brainwashing indoctrination same thing really that led to it and it's you know one of the reasons why I wrote scarred is so that it would be on paper if people wanted to go through

the whole progression. So I'll handle as much as I can, but I'm also aware of it being like daunting a little bit. You know what I mean? Absolutely. I want you feel comfortable talking about what you want to talk about. And I'm sure everyone out there understands. It's an unfathomable situation that you were brave enough to be able to break out of the chains of. And there's a lot of people you've even laid it out today who are still in the chains of that brainwashing. So kudos to you. for being able to do that and also save a lot of people, help get them out, help stop people from ever joining that at Nexium or an organization like it. So I know you get really, and I understand this, concern with having every detail right

and making sure people understand all the context, but like there's some blanks people can fill into, so don't, if we miss some stuff, you also, as you said, we'll have the link to scarred down below the book where you lay this all out perfectly so that if people want to and get every single step it'll be in there but like this is just a thank you conversation so don't worry about it at all but we got into this because we were talking about how when you had troy yes that's where the mask comes off a little bit yeah now what was that what were some of the main things that kind of came off for you there well i just you know was a mother and it was it was way more meaningful to do that to be a mother and to be with him

and to raise him and you know it's ironically one of the sort of tenants of nexium was this concept of an inner deficiency which we didn't we haven't talked about that yet but basically what it was was that um and other modalities and other sort of religions and groups or whatever have their own version of this is that everyone feels like this void in this hole and they're trying to fill it with external things like Buddhism would say nothing from the outside fills the hole like we're that's right you know so something like even wanting a baby was an example of me trying to fill the inner deficiency right which is a very very cruel thing to do to somebody who wants to be a mother the cruelest the cruelest and that was a hundred percent done to the

other women who wanted it and like well you got to evolve your attachment to it in order to get it and And I remember even being in a training before I had Troy and someone being like, well, what if you never have a baby? Like try to push on my non-integrated fixation, right? My desire to have a child. And again, like I said earlier, I always took the good of the, I took what I wanted from it and was like, I'm still going to have a baby. Like you're not going to take, but also the back of my mind is like, is this just an attachment?

So me getting married to Nippy and having a baby, I even heard from people who stayed longer than me, Nancy told people, well, of course she's not fully committed. Her deficiency was filled with getting married to Nipi and having Troy, like, as if that made me go off the path because I just got my deficiency filled. Like in that world, that was me taking the happy path versus the joy path. Does that make sense? 100%. So I, it's fucked up. It's so fucked up. It's completely fucked up. And every cult, by the way, has its version of that. Like, you're not really committed. You're not doing the work. you're like having something in religious cults it's like ungodly to these materialistic

pursuits and things like that yeah it's kind of like with a parasite they need your blood right so if you decide not that this scientifically makes sense but bear with me if you decide to flow your blood somewhere else to parasites go no no no don't do that yeah i need it i need it and it's so ironic that You said that because there was a whole class called Parasite Producer about parasites. In Nexium? Yeah. You just nailed. They were out in front of everything.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. You wanted to be a producer, not a parasite. Parasite was dependent on other people and you were trying to develop your producer strategies and create more than you were taking. So don't be dependent on people who exist outside of here because they can't possibly understand. But the understanding there is that you have to be dependent on what's here. But that's not parasit.

Yeah. No. We can't be a parasite because we're teaching you. Yeah, yeah, exactly. No, I didn't, I didn't see till I left just how freaking, I mean, we were so dependent on everything in the organization and some people more than others. I think that's actually in this book, or maybe it's the next one where I remember when I invited Ali Mack to my our wedding and she was like, let me check with Keith. And I was like, Allie Mac was the small wood. A small bill actor, actress. Yeah, I was like, you're a daddy. Like, we have to check with Keith. Like, you can't make your own decisions. So that you started to. It sounds like there were communication patterns you even started to see where you're like, wait a minute, that's not normal. There were so many things.

So when people ask me, like, what were the red flags? I already told you the red flags from day one. And there were so many things along the way that I couldn't wrap my head around or didn't understand what I was looking at. And in the recovery space, they call it putting it on the shelf. Same thing in domestic violence. It's like you have an incident with someone. You sort of put it up behind on the back burner, like I put it on the shelf, put that moment on the shelf. that you just say no and you put it in the shelf and then eventually the shelf breaks and that's when

you that's when you wake up it's not one thing that wakes you up it's like the shelf just gets too heavy and you go oh fuck that was emus isn't a cult yes it's it's also like subconsciously if you're not recognizing that shelf with that example you know the the gambler's paradox which by the way deif we got to bring in that chair when she comes in i just realize that Thanks, bro. But gamblers will get deep on, you know, losing money and they're trying to get their chips back or whatever. And they start throwing good money after bad. They're like, well, I'm already this deep.

I got to keep throwing money after it. In a way, before you recognize like, whoa, I'm in a colt or like this shelf is crashing down, you keep throwing good money after bad, even as it's getting bad because you're like, well, it's worked in the past. So we just must be on our way to making it work. Yeah. Right? That in combination with the sort of like chasing the high, chasing the dragon, like my first five day was so powerful. I kept trying to get that back.

And I never really did. Like I had other moments that were little nuggets of usefulness. But like really it all happened at the beginning. So it's like they anchored you because in your first five day training, that's where you had talked about in what is not going to be the previous episode. That's where you talked about that it was like the massive therapy session where they got you in touch with some of your own insecurities or underlying issues and root causes. So the high of that that came out of it where you actually maybe did put your finger on some things that were wrong in your life made you psychologically attached to the source that allowed you to see that. And the source in this case was them.

So if they did this, then they're going to lead you right the rest of the way. Yeah. Yep. And that became the same template for what happened in DOS. All right, let's talk about that. Do we ready to go there? Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. So can I see your book if you don't mind for a second? Yeah. So if you guys read Scard, which we will have linked down below, you'll see that on the cover is a picture of you, Sarah, where you are showing the brand that will tell the story of. that happens when you get pulled into DOS, which you said now you do not have this anymore, right? Yes, good for you.

That's the, not only say happy ending, but that's the, yeah, how I kept it for many years because, well, two and a half years or so, because I wanted, I needed it as proof. And I know I'm jumping ahead for a second, but when we decided to whistleblow, we were exposing, you know, physical abuse, but after many years of Keith being an emotion,

abuser, which is very hard to prove. He's been coercibly controlling people. I know you've covered that with Nadine and also with Sarma. It's very difficult to show that someone's being coercive with you and lying to you and getting you to do something that you would never have done otherwise. But now we have physical proof. And so when I did interviews and that that's the cover of what was later, what was on the New York Times, this picture.

Yeah. I mean it's a it is a you don't forget that no you don't forget seeing like everything about that there's yeah yeah that that's um that's what I and when I from New York Times I did like 2020 and I did Dr. Oz and I was like doing everything I could to stop nexium from growing and doing everything that I could to to you know free the slaves essentially so I needed it as proof I didn't show it on camera but like I would be interviewed and be like I need to show you this so you can see especially the women they'd be like horrified yeah yeah it's i mean i remember in the vow when when you told that story i remember that episode and we'll go through it but what was i thinking of

there god damn it there was a parallel i was thinking of when i saw that that was like so oh i know what I was thinking of it was to me you hear all these stories about you know the the adult male who abuses a 10 year old boy or something and then tells them oh it's it's our it's our little secret you can't you can't tell anyone about this same exact same exact vibes with this like I don't know if any of them are more sinister than they're all they're all sinister but like when I was seeing that I was like that the psychology is 100%. I mean, maybe some people can correct me who are experts, but it seems 100% lined up.

Would you say that's? Well, yeah, I mean, the whole DOS, so that was the secret women's group within Xiam that I was invited to by Lauren, was supposed to be a secret. They're supposed to be a secret sorority, like the men, you know, sorority. Sorority.

So, you know, men have. They called it that. They called a sorority, yeah. But he got it, Keith had an exception as the master. He got to be the one. male who's conveniently at the head of it right which of course was withheld when lauren asked me to join i was invited to a women's only sorority when is when is this this would have been in january of 2017 so it's like six months before i left right towards the end yeah now now you're

close with laura and lauren is the godmother to your child she was the efficient at your wedding prior to this first interaction where she invites you to this, like you said, she'd come into town, you go get your nails done together, hang out, you guys are best friends. Yeah. Fair to say. Fair to say, yeah. Okay, and it felt normal-ish. Yeah, yeah.

Except I didn't know much about her personal life, but she knew everything about my personal life. So she would, I'd ask you that, like, would you ask about dating and she'd say a little bit here and there, but she'd get you off it, basically. Yeah, and where things were probably more equal is like, you know, she would help me with certain things emotionally, I was, I've always been, you can see by my healthy snacks, I'm the health nerd, right? And so I'd come into her house and be like, you need to get on adaptogens and let's get, you know, like I was always helping her with her. Like, that's where it was maybe a little bit more balanced. I didn't know about her romantic life, but like, you know,

good friendship is not just one way. So that's, that's where it kind of was more even, but she was somebody, I had no secrets from her. She was, she knew everything that was going on for me. So that was another theme in the vow with multiple women, including Lauren, where it'd be like, oh, they would lose, like, a lot of weight and suddenly get rail skinny. And I guess it was all for trying to appeal to Keith because they were part of this organization. Yeah. They wanted, like, so Lauren and I are like the exact same height. And I'm like approximately 120 pounds. She was 100 pounds. So 20 pounds smaller than I am right now when I left. And like, yeah, it's, very very thin and yeah and most like i was probably i was very thin too when i was at nexium

because i'm not i wasn't following that diet but it's just sort of like that was the that was the aesthetic i was probably like 110 112 pounds most of my time there was her mother nancy was she married no she was divorced interesting how young was loren when she got divorced i'm i want to say teenager but i don't remember exact when but loren got pulled in Xiam at the age of like 18 she was very young right younger than I was yeah I like ripe for yeah super ripe being taken and not only that got had got a job with Xiam at 18 around that around the time that she started like she started working for like being a coach and you know got a job in next to him right away was her mother aware that she was in the sorority no she was not no Nancy was not

aware of DOS until we blew it up no that's fascinating yeah And at some point, she became aware because we were calling it out. And then Keith convinced her that it wasn't a problem. And then, you know, the FBI got involved and she was where there was a problem. Yeah. And then it's a problem. Okay. But keep in mind, like, both Nancy and Lauren were with Keith at different times. Like, he was mother-daughtering it.

Keith was with Nancy at some point. Yeah. In the early days. Yeah. I'll leave that one there. Yeah. Just allegedly, no way to prove that, allegedly. Yeah. Okay. So I don't know if that protects us. Yeah, I guess he didn't have preferences, but okay. Yeah. So that was a curve ball. No, it's all good. You know the saying look good, feel good. Problem is most dress clothes, only check one of those boxes. We may look good once we put it all on, but everything feels cramped in all the wrong places. It's coming out on the sides a little bit and it's just very annoying overall. But that's why there's Mizn and Maine, a company of which.

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Right now, Mizan and Maine is offering our listeners 20% off your first order at Mizaninand.com. That link is in my description below using promo code Julian 20 at checkout. That's Mizan spelled M-I-Z-Z-E-N and Maine, M-A-I-N. and once again make sure you use promo code julian 20 for 20% off mizzen and main.com promo code julian 20 or if you want to shop in person you can find missin and main stores in select states but please don't do that use our code if you love me but she texts you was it a text no it was in person it was in person in january 2017 oh god i haven't told the story in so long she came to van to vancouver to do a training and this is just after pam died so this is pam k for it's the one

the second cancer. Terbo cancer. Terbo cancer, yeah. This was in, you know, that funeral was in, like, January of 2014, of 2017. Lauren comes out to Vancouver. She's literally on sleeping up my couch because she, and she could have, like, she could have afford to stay in a hotel, but she wanted to, like, hang out and, like, be close. And she said she had something she wanted to ask me.

She was really excited, a bit nervous about it. I actually thought that I was getting, like, I was going to be in trouble for something. I thought I was getting feedback because that's often what would happen. should, if a higher up said they wanted to talk to you, it was like, yeah, it was like, uh-oh, what did I do wrong, you know, what's, what do I have to do to fix it? You know, we had to fill out, if there was, if we screwed up, we had to fill out a breach form. A breach form? Yeah, same as Scientology, by the way, different name.

They called it a different form. I forget what it was called now, but yeah, fill out a breach form. Like, this was my breach. I said I was going to do this and I did this instead. This is how I'm going to fix my, this is how my breach affects all of humanity. I'm going to fix it by. All of humanity. I know.

Red flags are flying. I know. Red flag. Yeah. So, yeah. So she wanted to invite me to something. I'm going to, I literally not told a story in years, so I'm going to, I'm going to butcher.

It's all in the book. But basically, she, she, the first question she asked me is, how committed are you to my, are to your growth? To your growth. To my growth. Turns it on you again. Yeah. Right.

100%. Always committed. Yeah. Yeah. I'm green sash. Now, keep in mind, Troy would have been almost three. and I was pulling back and I was in terms of my growth

and the stripe path I hadn't been promoted since becoming a green sash so I was feeling kind of like stagnating in my growth here's Lauren who I would do anything to spend time with

because I really admire and respect or saying you know asking me these questions like what's where is this leading and she says what are you willing to do for your growth I'm like well anything great and she invites me

you use that word anything Yeah, something like, yeah, like, I mean, but like within a reason, you know, like a normal person, like a normal person. Yeah. Yeah. What did she say to me next? She wanted to invite me to something that was top secret and very exciting. Now, she's visibly excited slash nervous about this thing. And she's, I can't tell you what it is until you give me collateral. Again, this is where it gets complicated. Collateral had been introduced into the organization years before as a concept that people, nexium would if they were committed to something put collateral down as as proof of their commitment and it could be anything like money or services like if i don't do this and this is my collateral and i'm going to like put a hundred dollars towards v week funds or whatever whatever they were going to do and so collateral was very normal normalized by this point so i'm giving her collateral to hold just to hear about this thing so that if i don't want to do it she's going to hold the collateral because it has to be, it's top secret. Had you ever had like some sort of subconscious

thought about before this, about, it's a little fucked up. Oh yeah. About the collateral thing. Oh yeah. How did you? I compartmentalized. I, so remember I said I'd stopped doing certain things. Yeah. I that's when they introduced penance, which is by the way, very religious, penance and collateral years before. I just didn't really do it. Like it had become normal and I was sort of like I knew people were doing it, but people would do things like, if they didn't complete their goals, they would, like, get up and do burpees in the snow at 2 a.m. You know, or whatever, some bullshit thing like that. And I just never did it.

I just thought that's really dumb. But I went along with it because I remember I'm being a good girl. And so, and I'm in Vancouver. No one's checking on me. Yeah. So I'm like. You're just far enough outside to be, yeah. So I'm texting like, like, we had to do this thing where people, if they, we were in a group and if someone else didn't do their goal,

We had to like stand for them and like not do anything. I'm like, completed my standing, didn't do it. Because all over text, no one's watching me. Yeah. So that kind of thing. So when anyone's watching this and they're going like, that's just so fucking dumb, it's very, it's like, it's like so cringe for me to even say it because it's whatever. Okay. No, but here's why you shouldn't feel that way.

You're talking about something that you join up in in 2005 or 205 or 205. 2006, they manipulate you as we've laid out multiple times today into thinking you're finding things in yourself. And then they slowly chip away and carefully, manipulatively, destructively introduce you to these anchored ideas over and over and over again. And each one just gets a little heavier than the last one to the point that you don't even know your fucking 100 feet under what below sea level yeah at this point it's not like I think when it when I've seen comments on on videos before where people are talking about cults and things like that and people you know commenters will be like how could you ever fall for this I'm like dude mm-hmm it could happen

right very easily and what doesn't happen is you join a personal development group and they say hey in 12 years would you like the leader's initials seared into your flesh that's right you go oh let me think about that no they never start no no never starts there and as i'm like going back in this like i had to explain it many many times like a to the lawyers b to the fbi i c you know to new york times it's a little jumbly in my head the order of events between getting invited to doss and the branding so if we can kind of like just sort of like accordion that um the point is is that every step along the way there was a commitment and a lie like And this is where it's really important to understand is I was invited to a women's only sorority that was supposed to be. And I even said point black, like, is Keith involved in this? Does Keith know about it? Because I had the foresight to know that, like, Keith had a lot of control over everybody. It's like, I'm being invited to something. Keith doesn't know. Straight up lied to me. Keith doesn't know anything about this. This is nothing to do with Keith. This is something the women started using some of the tools from Nexian, some of the term tools from Janus, which is the women's only group that we talked about earlier, to really hold each other accountable. And we

we're going to enter into like a high level you know coach coachee agreement and part of that is you taking a vow of obedience a vow of obedience that was the term that was the term that she says this right away in january 2017 no this is after i've given collateral after i've given collateral yeah so at the beginning she says so you got to give me collateral so what did you hear about it so i wrote a handwritten confession about like shit that i did in my 20s that i wouldn't want anyone so She's like, write something down that you wouldn't want people to know so that she could hold it so that to make sure that I never spoke about it if I decide to not go through with it. Do you know what I mean? Like leverage. This is skull and bone shit. Oh, it's, yeah, it's fight club. It's next level. So, and it also has that kind of the thrilling part of it is has that element to it. Do you know what I mean? You're a part of something. I'm part of something. And Lauren's inviting me. And it can't be bad because she loves me. So I write like, you know, I did blah, blah, blah. You know, I tried this, that, blah, blah, blah. Did you make stuff. Did you make stuff.

up or was it real? The first time it was real. And she took a photo of it, sent it to somebody and told me it wasn't bad enough. So then I had to make stuff up because I'm a good girl. Right. I mean, I did acid when I was 15 or 16 and like, yeah, but that's, that's a little flex. It's a little, whatever. Yeah. Shit, really? I made it worse. I don't even remember what I said. It was, but it was bad enough that I wouldn't want it like photographed and put on Instagram. You know what I mean? So once she has my collateral, she tells me what it is. It's a, it's a group of women who are like a badass boot camp for women. And it's like all people that I know and some people that I don't know. And we're going to really hold each other accountable. And she's like,

nothing has made me grow more than this thing. A badass boot camp for women. Okay. Yeah. I'm going to do it with Lauren and other people that I don't even know. And it's like the Freemasons, but for women and it's top secret. Oh, she said that. Yeah. Free masons, but for women. Yeah. Yeah. I ain't going to lie, Sarah. I've been out right there. And like, you can take that fucking third eye, shove it right up your ass. Unfortunately, I didn't know much about the Freemasons at the time, so I don't know much more now. You do now. I do now.

Okay. And take a vow of obedience. But, like, I'm like, wait, so what if you tell me to rob a bank? No, she's like, Sarah, it's for your growth. Like, I'm going to tell you to, like, you know, do X, Y, and Z towards your goals, and it's going to be all for, you know, for you. But, like, now you're accountable because, like, I'm here to guide you through it. And really, what I wanted is her guidance. like to have somebody like Nancy or Lauren work with you individually in that setting was like

it's like having your you know someone you really look up to but you didn't know Nancy's not involved I knew Nancy wasn't involved right yeah because she said in it but I'm saying having someone like Lauren yeah yeah like I was always yeah I was always yeah I was always trying to get their time like if they were going to spend time with you and help you work and work through something it was like yes you felt drawn yeah oh yeah it was I mean they were they were for better for worse they were both really good at the methodology. Like if I was struggling with something, I would spend an hour with them and it would be better.

She was a therapist. Like, that's what they both were to me. What do you think she would do? Is it just like they were so good at mirroring what you said and bouncing it back to you to make you feel better about yourself? No, it was usually, it depended

on what it was, but usually it was like getting to the core issue behind like, usually there's something where childhood related. It's basically therapy. Like what was the core wound or like like, what was I making it mean? Or even just, even remember you're talking about options. You know, sometimes a therapy session in that context would be like seeing new options you'd ever seen before, which made me feel better.

Or, you know, just seeing something from a new perspective, reframing, which is very, like, you know, therapy 101. Like, what if that's not what had happened? What if was actually this? You're like, oh, yeah, that's what it was. And you feel better about it. Right. So to have her time in that context was like, sure, okay.

did she tell you right away yeah when she brings this up that obviously it's a secret she mentioned that you got to give collateral did she say you cannot say anything to nippy about this so you had to keep it from your own husband keep it from my own husband was just the fucking CIA I mean pretty much yeah so that this is also part of like the little bit trying to divide us you know create yeah division between us because your relationship is unhealthy for the organization oh yeah 100% unhealthy he's not as committed as you. No. And also, as we find out later, Keith wanted me for his harem. Yeah. Yeah. So he, oh, so you found out later that he had specifically said he wanted you recruited into it. Well, yeah. And it was revealed in the trial that Keith was very happy when he found

out that I had taken the vow of obedience and I had agreed. So there was the first collateral to hear about it and then there was the second collateral to be fully in okay and was that also in january 2017 yeah so it was like right away it was like five days later because she she told me at the beginning gave me five days like the thing i was thinking about it i felt like sick to my stomach you felt sick to your stomach oh yeah super nauseous about it i was didn't and that and to her she's like that means you're doing it right it has to feel that way that means that like you're really it has to be that i know just total twist twist twist twist twist oh it's wild so wild so like because i felt so nauseous about it, that was the reason for me to know that, like, I was on the right track with

it. It had to be that important. I had to meet, like, I had to feel it to know that. And this is someone you trust. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That makes it worse, right? Yes. And remember, there's no, like, internal red flag of, like, it's time to go. That's been dismantled 12 years before. I have, I'm feeling uncomfortable. That means there's an issue for me to work on. I'm not. It's a suppressive feeling. Yeah. So I take a valve of obedience. I say I'm going to do it. Did you do that in person?

Yeah, well, yes. I did that with her in person. Because the first one was in person when she asked. And then you're still there. She's still with me. She's staying in my apartment. And, yeah, pressuring me to join. Fucking Nick Saban over here.

Yeah. And I'm like, okay, let's do it. Huck, what I have to lose. What's the worst I can happen? But before I committed, she did tell me that I was going to get this tattoo. She used the term tattoo. in the trial she told me said that she said the word brand she may have i did not know that what people could get branded but i know for sure she said it's like a tattoo it's a mark she's used

the word mark she said she apparently said that she said brand i don't have a recollection of that i know for sure she said a tattoo because we had a whole fight not fight but it's like i don't have any tattoos i don't want a tattoo that that was the deal break like vow of obedience i loved lauren i was already locked in and loyal to her and would have done anything she said within reason like you know what i mean like i really within reason within reason wouldn't jump off a bridge you know like i'm going to rob a bank but like she said this is what you need to do for your growth i would have done it so now she's saying um get a tattoo and i'm like that was that was the deal breaker for me did she tell you where it would be yeah she told me it would be right here under my bikini

line yep and she said that's going to be right there and she said that it would be it was the size of a dime and it'd be really pretty. Did she show you hers? No. I don't think she had, did she have hers yet? Hold on. I don't know if she had hers yet. I'm just trying to think.

Had she had hers? So you didn't ask her to show it? I can't remember. I don't know if she had it, but I know she said that she had, I don't remember. But this is how she described it to me. She said in the trial that she did tell me it was a brand.

I don't have a recollection of that. Like I said, I didn't know that humans could be branded. I thought it was for cattle. You know? Yeah. So what, but my sticking point was tattoo. And so she, we did, she did a whole EM with me about like, what am I making it mean?

And like, what's a mark on my body? I don't want to mark on my body. Well, what if it's a commitment to your growth? What it's a symbol for your like? Where did you do the EM with you? Just like in your living room? In living room, yeah. And then later again, the night of, which came a few months later.

Is your son around while you're doing? I mean, he's a three-year-old. Yeah, I mean. You guys are alone. We were alone when this happened. Might have been at night. Okay. Maybe there's a daycare or something.

And Nippie's obviously not. No, Nipi was not. And Nipi, by the way, was traveling a lot. He was running the men's program, Society of Protectors. What is the Society of Protectors? Oh, that's a whole other podcast. Janice was the woman's thing, and then Society of Protectors came in later, and that was like the men's version of Janus.

God, these names are like so gay, too. I know. I know. SopP, Doss, Janessem, Nexium, the Knights. Society of Protectors? Yeah. Just, I'll jump. about the window right now.

I know. It's so embarrassing. Especially like Nippy, he sounds like the kind of guy that's like, fuck this. Like, I feel like he would have walked in there and said, do something different. Yeah. He similarly with me and next thing, I'm doing our own thing. He did his own thing with the men's group. Right.

No one was monitoring. Well, let's not get into the whole thing because like you said, it's a whole other podcast. But high level, what is the society of protectors doing? I don't fucking know. Wish I could tell you. It's just for men. They were just doing things. They were doing, they were, I mean, similarly, how we gathered as women and, like,

would talk about stuff. They talked about men stuff, and they would, they, they had what's called bullshit sessions. Bullshit sessions. Yeah, that I do know. So, like, if someone came and said, like, hey, this, you know, this is going on in my life, then people were, like, well, that's bullshit. Like, basically, sort of forcing people to take accountability to, for their, like, it's all about personal responsibility, which is something we didn't cover at the beginning.

was all about like you're not a victim in your life something happens you've authored it yes you're the master of your ship you've authored it in some way if something fucks up in your life you either had expectations that were off or you know missed certain things that you didn't want to see you know like there's always like i and i could take this whole situation and do it for me right now like how did i cause being branded how is this on me how is this my fault i'm not a victim but the thing is is that i was a victim because i was lied to Here's the psychology of life that just pisses me all so much. We have to go on everything, zero or a thousand, like not even zero or a hundred, it's zero or a thousand. Either everyone is a victim of everything that ever happened to them and you're just supposed to wallow them being a victim your whole life or someone's not a victim of anything that's ever happened in them.

And it's like, dude, these situations are situation to situation and they have incredible nuance, right? Like, when someone is inducted into a fucking sex cult and taking advantage of, like, they're a fucking victim. When someone doesn't get in a good enough grade in class so they pout and fucking say, I'm going to quit the class, then they're just a pussy. There's a huge difference. You understand? Like, these are two very different things. But, like, people either got to be all in one camp or all in another. I hope it's very clear today that, like, clearly, you know, people across this organization at different levels.

different levels of seriousness, I might say. Yours being, like, top of the line here, unfortunately. We're victims of a massive, psychotic, insane, horrible person. And it's also like, I know you've covered this a little bit on your podcast, too, like same exact structure, different content, but it was like P. Diddy. Atstein, same thing. Like, women didn't sign up for what they got. They did not sign up for what they got.

And nor did they consent, because if you're a, afraid. That's not consent. It's not consent. It's not consent at all. Yeah. So you do this vow of obedience. I commit to this thing and it's kind of fun at first. What was that like? What was the vow of obedience? Oh, so I had to give more collateral. So she has a somewhere out there is a is a naked picture that she took of me. That was my claddle. It's still just floating out there. I have no idea, has it? Yeah, someone's got it. I hope it doesn't pop up on the internet, But, you know, other people gave way worse. Other people did, like, other people did videos of all sorts of things, which I did not do.

Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, if you think about that, we're all giving collateral for Keith's bank bank is what we're doing. Yeah. Yeah, that's where that's going. But we don't know that at the time. Right. Cut to, that was January.

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And I'm like, master slave. Like, even in Xium, there's a whole module where like slavery is bad. And I'm like, wait, so now I'm the slave. It's like, it's a metaphor, Sarah. Like, coach, coachee. It's a metaphor. Guru, disciple. Just guru disciple.

And also, like, I don't live in Albany. I can't be her slave. Right? Like, it's a metaphor. It's a, you know, have you ever, we were in a, it's like the old Joe Bonano interview. It's a metaphorical. Yeah. You weren't a frat boy ever, right?

It isn't... Were you? Do I look like a frat boy? No, you don't look at a frat boy. Okay. I was in a frat. I was at a school where pretty much every person there. There was a small school. Everyone was in a frat.

We drank mad dogs. Okay. I was in the... I was in like the sports team frat. So it was a drinking club. Okay. Yeah. So, but you've heard about hazing.

Of course. Yeah. So also a little bit culty, by the way, I've done episodes on it. But the point is, when someone's being hazed, they know that the person above them is sort of playing a game. Right. You know, like, okay, I'm going to go get your remote from across campus and bring it to you. Okay, fine.

That's what I got to do. That's what I felt like to me. This is a game. It's an exercise. It's a, it's a, I'm not really her slave. We're doing this thing together. It's a sorority. It's a sorority.

So, yeah, that's what it was like. It was weird. It was also kind of exciting. Nobody knew about it. We were, like, texting, and I had to be like, good morning, master. And, you know, what? Yeah, that's the part I would have been like. So you had to talk like that.

yeah so you had to check in with her at all times and i also had to be always available this is also like in there were so many things that happened in those last six months i couldn't even tell you the timeline because a i was already sleep deprived having a toddler that would wake me up at night then i had to keep my phone on at night for like drills that could i had to respond to her in a certain time she might text you in the middle of the night and you had to respond i had to respond so like somewhere total control so the control just amped up and also somewhere during this time, I'm going, oh, shit, like, what did I agree to do? And trying to figure out also how I was going to get out of it. Like, as soon as I was in, I'm trying to figure out how to get

out. But, like, kind of going along and thinking about, and maybe if I find, if I find a way to tell Nancy about this, oh, because as soon as I was in, then it was a reveal to me that we had to give new collateral every month. Every month. And this is, every month. Like, provide something else to keep our words strong. And people were giving, like, there was one woman in my, in my little sisterhood, who was a lawyer and wrote a letter that would have gotten her to sparred. Shit like that. She was a lawyer?

Yes. And I don't know if this happened before after the branding. I don't remember, but there was a point where Lauren asked for the deed to my home. And I was like, okay. And never, ever actually like took steps to do it,

but was like, yeah, I'm talking to my lawyer. I'm trying to figure out how to do that. Like, I don't have the deed. The deed to my home. Just as collateral, just for her to hold. so like i'm in it but also like kind of going along with it trying to figure out how to extricate myself from it and like you know i'm again i'm in vancouver so i'm not like no one's really watching me i can kind of get away with not being fully in it you're in some ways because of your physical

lack of proximity you're finding loopholes to dissociate yourself from the very clear red flags flying at all times. Yes. And keep in mind that there are women who were in my boat who lived in Albany, who lived in the same complex as Keith and Nancy and Lauren. Like, their level of fighter flight and hypervigilance from this time period must have been through the fucking route. Oh, I can't even thought of that. Like, that's why you don't hear from them. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? Like, I'm probably the only ones who can talk about it because I don't have, A, I don't have the same shame wrapped up in it. Like, it's embarrassing, but it's not the same shame you know what i mean no it's it's it's it's like i'm trying to possibly understand it

yeah it's not possible i know it's so crazy but like you're you're texting in the middle of the night nipy ever see you texting no my god nip he was so much this is when nip you're texting jake from state farm like what's the deal nip i what loren helped me explain to him because I'm like, I was one of the few married women, right? So I had to get him on board. And she's like, tell him that you're doing something with your women friends from Janess. And it's like, SOP had their own version

of the texting and the drills and stuff. So that was called readiness drills. That's where it came from. SOP was doing it too. You had to be available and respond. I was like, are you ready to do what? I don't fucking know. So I was like, I'm doing that with my women friends.

We're like committing to work. So he knew that I was doing something with Lauren and my women friends from Janus, but he didn't really know what. But he was irritated because it was like, Like, we had phones off at night. Now we don't have phones off at night. He's like, this isn't cool, bro.

Yeah. He didn't say, bra, then. That was more recent. He's cultured now. Yeah. He left there and got cultured. I live with three boys. It's like, bruh.

Good for him. Yep. So you're from January to March, and they show some of these texts, like in the vow. I remember that. It was like you'd literally, as you said, refer to her as master, and she'd call you slave and check in. And you're, that does.

also psychologically, even if you are not physically proximate and you're explaining away some of these things, when you do, when you, it's repetition of anything. When you do that enough, that psychologically wires you to unknowingly take on some of those characteristics in that dynamic, for sure. It's no different for, for any person. So March is when you actually go out there? I think it's March 11. And she signed me up at the end of January. So it's actually like less than six weeks later. And so she says fly out here at all, but you? We had a, we had a training that the whole organization was doing. It was a genus. There was genus for women and there was SOP for men. And then there was a Janice track that was like for relationships, the men and women were doing together.

So Nippy and I were going to do this eight-day training together. By the way, it was $15,000 that training. Yeah. They always get you. I know. They still get in your money. They always get you. And I was instructed to come out day early so I could meet my sisters and get

my tattoo and do my initiation and um yeah that happened and then i left i'm just kidding okay yeah yeah we got to actually go and do nippy doesn't know anything about what this is if you've laid out me off at lawrence house for i told him it was a potluck which we did have a potluck first we had a potluck you didn't mention anything about a tattoo or anything like that no no we were having we were having dinner with my girlfriends and um i would take an uber back when i was done oh i don't have to tell this whole story you don't have to Yeah. Seriously. I'm going to tell you the abridged version. Or what do you want to know? I mean, I want to know what happened, but you don't have, I'm serious, you don't have to. It's whatever you're comfortable with.

It's been a while. Hold on a second. I have to pee again. I'm so sorry. No problem. And then we're going to. We'll be right back and then we're going to do this. Okay. We're back. So like I said, wherever you're comfortable, come with this. Go wherever you're not. No problem at all. But the branding as you said. Thank you. And so what I've realized, so I'm eight years out, what I've realized is even though I have a podcast, I've done all these interviews, talking about, like, the details of the, of the night still trigger, like, a kind of PTSD response. So to really go there and walk through all the steps and to relive it is traumatic. And at the same time, I want people to know so they understand the whole story. I just, if I really go there, then I'm going to just break down and I don't want to do that.

So I have to like kind of, it's almost like I have to tell the story from a more surface, sort of like Eagle View. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. When I really settle into what happened, it's just fucks with my head. So I'm going to, that's my, my preempt. She'd set up a whole ritual. She wanted to, Lauren wanted to make this a special night. And she had, oh my God, I haven't walked through the, all the,

these things in a long time. So I'm just trying to figure out what's the most important thing to share. You were, just to be clear, before we went to the break, you were dropped off. Nippy did not know what you're doing, obviously, obviously. Drops you off at Lauren's house. And it's a potluck to start. Yeah. Was it a potluck to start? No, it wasn't a potluck to start. So I didn't know who the other women were in my little, she had a pod of sisters, my sorority. We hadn't met yet. This was the night we were going to meet, and then we were going to be like sisters in the sorority. So I knew that there were other women that she'd invited as well, but I hadn't met them yet. That introduction was so awkward.

So I was the first to arrive. She brought me into her guest room, which I'd been in before and stayed. I felt comfortable in her house, and she told me to get undressed and wait. And then she brought. Right when you get there, get undressed. I heard other people come in, other women come in, and she ended up. blindfolding me and leading me downstairs into her like little living room area until all the women were down there and we took off our blindfolds and we met each other buck naked I know

that is a bad start I know it's a bad start and these are women that I know these are women that I've done trainings with for years but like we've never seen each other naked some of one of the women was breastfeeding she had a new baby and like you know when you when you've had a baby your body is not your own is, things are not, as they should be for a while. So she was uncomfortable. I mean, we were all, we were all just like, oh, this is so fucking weird. And kind of laughing. And she says things like, girls, you have to get over your body issues.

Like, who cares? Like. So she comes downstairs and is telling you that. She introduces us. We talk about, a little about what DOS means. I don't remember any of it. I couldn't tell you because I'm just like, people think we're a cult. You know, like, what are we doing?

We get dressed, and we have the potluck. Sorry, I feel like I have, like, trail mix on my teeth. No, you're good. Okay, okay. Then we have potluck, a low calorie potluck, by the way. Low calorie. Because everyone's, like, counting calories. So we're all trying to be thin.

Nope, can't be, I was never a calorie counter. Just always kind of been naturally thin. And so I wasn't doing that. But everybody was like, this is a 300 calorie soup. And this is like, it was so annoying. The weight thing is a whole, I mean, that's a whole other podcast. Yeah. We put her in our clothes.

Then we get blindfolded again, and we get in the car. We'll, like, cram into a car, and she drives us somewhere. Blindfold. Blindfolded. She's not blindfolded. She's driving. Well, that's good. That's reassuring.

Yeah. And we get it. And then she, like, leads us out of the car as dark by now into what I, as soon as I get in the home, I can smell, and I'm peeking under the bottom of my blindfold, and I know exactly where I am. I'm an Alice and Max condo. Get lit into a room. It's a tiny, like half the size of this room and the massage table in the middle.

And we were told to get undressed again. And now we're going to get our, what I thought was my tattoo is now the brand. Now she shows me. And it's half the size of this room? Yeah. It's not a big space at all. No, it's enough room for like a massage table and for like people to sort of stand around or sit around the massage table. How many of you was it again, four or five?

So me, Lauren, then the doctor, six others. Oh, the doctor. person who did the branding was a doctor it's osteopath not a doctor but i guess talk i don't know who's in nexium she's a nexium okay yeah who's still loyal by the way you can look her up she's been on news saying that it was all consensual and what we all agreed oh my god yeah and that should take your medical license she had it's gone and by the way i was the only one who testified to that all the other women were like had run for the hills and i was like this cannot yeah that's crazy yeah and she blames me for that okay so they show you the brand now when you walk in yes

and what did who showed you Lauren she showed us yeah and it looked quite a lot like that um like a little bit more fresh a little bit more raised um like she had just gotten yeah it was pretty was pretty raw it was keloid you know what a keloid scar is right like it's sort of thick and raised they like wait that that's not familiar with that term yeah keloid is like when a scar is like um It's not healed yet. Like that a little bit? Yeah, but, yeah. So that would be a bit more raised than that.

But that's a little bit cheloid, yeah. And you could, I can tell you the cream to put on that. I'm good. You're good? It sounds good with the ladies. Really? It's your war wound? Yeah, I've had it for like seven years.

Really? Yeah, they're like, oh, you're so tough. Something like that. Yeah, yeah. Okay. I'll let them pick up a story. You keep that then. Whatever works for you.

Hey, I'm not working with much here. You got to help me out. Bruh, bruh. Bra. Okay. But she, what was your reaction when you see that this ain't a tattoo? I was like, I don't want that. It's not a dime size.

I don't want that. Oh, she had told you dime size? Yeah. It's like two inches by two inches. It's huge. A lot of things happened in this short period of time. Like, I know I pulled her aside at one point. I'm like, Lauren, I do not want this on my body.

And she was like, you're the only green sash in this room. And you made a commitment. Do you feel? Do you feel? like when she says something like that to you because you look at it seriously like friend to friend you're like you know it's awkward you're taking off a blindfold making in a room so it's already weird but now it's like all right let's cut the shit like i don't want this and then she looks at you i'm assuming was some sort of like a thousand yard stared mixed with authority and says you're a green sash you have to do

this. Did it feel like she was a robot? A little bit. Yeah. Yeah. And also I, Lauren was the master at normalizing things. Like even when she taught the five day, I love when she taught the five day because she'd be like, yeah, she's sort of weird. I get it. But like, you know, it's just a martial art system. And like, yeah, Vanguard. And like, I loved having her train because it made my friends more into the weird things because she just was like, whatever. Like, I get it. You know, it's, we don't want to call it vanguard, but it's just like a leader of a philosophical movement. You know, we call it the judge, Your Honor. It's the same thing.

You wrap the weird and nonchalance. Yeah, and she was really good at that. And so there were a lot of things stacked against me in the moment. One is that I was the highest ranking person in that room. So even though this was supposed to be unrelated to Nexxia, of all the women there, I was, other than Lauren, I was the highest rank. My promotions on the line, like me going up the rank, my collateral's on the line. Remember, I've taken a vow of obedience. So that's the proverbial, like, gun to my head.

that's my being blackmailed I've taken a vow of be newman's that means she's telling me I get branded I need to get branded we also have all these years of indoctrination Janess part of the curriculum was like women don't know how to keep a commitment even when we're married we're like we can always get a divorce

so there's all these very terrible messaging about women and our ability to stay loyal like the worst kind of manipulation yeah like they're appealing that appealing is the wrong word but they're they're guilting you for you know, pseudobiology.

Yeah. And now I'm actually gaslighting myself. I'm going, oh, look at me. I'm doing what we learned about. I'm literally looking for the back door. I said I would commit. I said if I can do it, I got to do it. I said I'd do it.

I'm going to do it. So I've heard doing it to me. I have me doing it to me. I have the collateral on the line. I have my role in the organization. And I tried to figure out how to, I decided not to go first. I saw somebody else go first. It was fucking horrific.

Now I am going to get emotional. Seeing... It's okay. Yeah. First, we were wearing masks because of the smell of the flesh. So there's a cauterizing iron that was dragged across the flesh to create the line. It wasn't a stamp of a brand, like, would actually would have been more humane, like a hot iron in fire on flesh. Like they do amegas in the frats.

You know about that? Yes. Yes. Oh, I've seen it. Yeah, I've seen it. Malcolm Jenkins had a huge... Yeah, that would have been more humane. It would took, the first woman it took almost an hour, maybe 45 minutes of taking a cauterizing iron, dragging across the flesh in this symbol that you see here.

An hour to do that? Yeah. And by the time it got to me, I was like, I need to stay still as fucking possible because the first woman I saw was like flipping around on the table like an electrocuted fish. Like, it was horrific. And I was like, if I'm going to get through this, I'm going to stay as still as pot. Like, I got this sort of like, I'm going to get it done and I'm going to get done as quickly as possible. And like, I've given birth before, those most painful experience in my life, I can do this. I can, I can do it.

And I, that's what I did. I, like, lay on the table and disassociated and thought about the love for my baby and went somewhere else. And, like, did everything I could to make it bearable. Like, I think I even crack jokes, you know, to ease the weird tension in the room. And meanwhile, Lauren's, like, looking lovingly at me and, like... So looking lovingly at me. Yeah, like, you're doing so great, you know. And before we even asked, before we even started, we had to say, master, would you brand me?

It would be an honor. Which cut to later in the trial, Allison Mack had audio footage of her talking to Keith. And Keith saying, ask the women, tell them to put their hands over their head so it looks sort of sacrificial. and tell them to ask to be branded so it looks consensual. That was a key piece of evidence in the trial. So, yeah, that happened. Mine, I think, took, I don't even know, like, around 30 minutes, a little less because I stayed still and just said, like,

just get it over with maybe 20 to 30 minutes. And you don't, you disassociated. I disassociated. So you didn't, you weren't really. Oh, I felt it. You felt it. Oh, I felt it. But it was, I mean, you probably had never had laser hair removal around your bikini line.

Not it. I've had it up here, but in very light, ain't nothing. Yeah. That's a joke. It's the most sensitive area to, like, right here on your pubic line. And, yeah, I mean, I was having my flesh cut open with a hot iron with no anesthetic. And then when it was done, I felt like the strongest, the endorphins that hit me and the rush of like feeling so fucking strong that I got through it and proud of myself that I got through it. And then to be surrounded by these women friends who were like ruining me on, like you did so great.

And like trauma bond, which you talked about with Nadine. Yes, she mentioned that she's very real. Yes, very real. She mentioned the paradigm. I think obviously that does 100% happen. trauma bond with the power differential and abusers, but trauma bond can also happen with people that you're bonded with. There's no, like, even within my sisters, we were trauma bonded. So obviously Lauren and I with the power differential, but with my sisters, we had like gone through this horrific thing together. And yeah, I don't know what else you wanted me to tell you, but it was, it was like the worst. Yeah, I'm, I don't know. I, I, I, I. You were.

thinking about to get through it, you're disassociating and you're also thinking about like your baby. Yeah, we'd learn this thing in X-M called state control, which is like accessing different emotional states to like get through like, like I could bring up like an excited state if I was feeling low energy, like I could get like excited about something. So I went into a love state. I went into a disassociated love. Like I love my son so much. Like, I'm the most loving.

Like, I just, I brought that up. So I was like somewhere, I was like a disassociated into another realm for myself. And then I came back to it and then Lauren was there. So now I'm bonded with her. And I don't even remember the rest of the night. I don't remember, I don't remember how I got home. You had a, you had a, you said though, when you were done,

it's like this almost the endorphins are kick in. Like, it's a weird rush. Was there, so you don't have. remember going home or anything like that. So is it fair to say you kind of stayed disassociated in a way? I do remember walking into. I don't remember if I got a ride home or if I took an Uber or what. But I remember when I walked in, I remember Nippy was working at his desk and he was still up.

And I remember like I wanted to tell him so badly. But you couldn't? I couldn't. No, it is a secret. I mean, he's your husband now. Like he's going to see that. I know. And we had a plan that when it didn't get to this.

But like, because me and another woman that were in there were the only married women in DOS, She had been branded. And we were like, what are we going to tell our husbands? It was like we had a plan about like, you know, that we did this thing as a, like we had some story that Lauren had asked us to say. But we never got to that because everything exploded before we could do that. Right. Before I get there. Yeah.

Do you remember at any point before you got home? Obviously he said you don't really even remember how you got home and all that. but at any point in the rest of that night after the rush dies down right afterwards do you remember feeling any anger or resentment or even slight understanding of like oh this is now different this is not the organization that I was telling myself I was a part of I don't think i think i was still feeling the rush of endorphins and whatever it came from like your my body reacting to like protecting myself i felt i felt like i had overcome a great physical feet like i'd run a marathon and i was proud of myself and that's like i didn't i knew it was kind i knew

it was fucked up but i was like i don't even i it's hard for me to go back to that and and and short it was very shortly thereafter that i was back and Vancouver and people have told me like my mom told me and a couple of friends who knew me well were like you were there was something so off with you for a while and they didn't know what it was and many things happened in that very short period of time after the branding including um mark for sanda who had brought me in was like leaving nexium and this is all in the bow as well like people yeah no what was the what was the context there did he contact you right when he was doing that well his wife had already left bonnie had already left and

And I was sent as the green sash to get her, like, to sign her paperwork, which is basically a gag order. Like, I'm leaving on good terms, and I'm not going to say anything negative about NXAM. And she wouldn't even get back to me about that. Is that before the branding? It's before the branding. And that's what there's phone calls in the vow, we're back and forth with Mark. And I'm like, I just got to get the paperwork. And I'm like, why is that?

Why am I being sent to do this? And I was, I was irritated. And at the same time, super happy for Bonnie that she was like going off to L.A. and pursuing acting. I was like, good for you. like that's what you came here to do and that's what that was also in the back of my mind so many people came to nexium to work on their goals and then like everything got usurped for the mission so i was like you go girl um then mark was leaving and i was this is also around the same time as our lease was up in vancouver and like i was looking at other leases and mark was going to leave the

company but i'm not doing this on my own and he wouldn't even tell me why he was leaving until i signed an india because he knew that that nexium was going to come after them which of course they did and under his NDA is what he told me what he knew because he was in Albany and he's like there's some women's group here that's like a secret group he knew more about it than I did oh he had found out about it he found out about it because some women who'd been approached I guess had said no and were coming to him for help and there was somebody that had had had done it and had gotten the assignment of having to go seduce Keith and they had found out that sex was involved So Mark was telling me about the sex.

So this is when I'm like, wait, he's not solidit. And B, I knew about the branding. So this is the first time that we were sharing information. So you still hadn't even, after the branding, you were still, there's a party that's still like, oh, but Keith is celibate. This has nothing to do with him. I didn't know. I had no idea that he, I mean, yeah. It's completely naive now to think that he wouldn't have anything to do with it because

since he was in charge of everything. But Lauren lied right to my face. No, Keith is something the women are doing with the tools. Keith created the tools. We're using the tools. The women are just doing it for us. No, the master of all the, the master of Lauren and the other top line DOS slaves was Keith,

which comes out later. Quick side question, because I didn't ask this. What did they tell you this shape was at the time? It was like some bullshit story about Greek or Latin symbol for the elements. Like mountains, valleys. river yeah exactly and but if you turn it to the side it says kr which i didn't that that's what woke me up so it wasn't the branding that woke me up it's looking in the mirror and seeing because

it's not you i have to look in the mirror and that's when i see it's it's the reverse the reflection it's not oh yeah what all right and that happened a few weeks later and that's like like i can't and this is where it's a bit fuzzy of what happened first like i think mark and i spoke and i was like holy fuck. And then I had, so remember, like, Lauren had recruited me. I had recruited my first slave as well into my little organization, which is, by the way, I didn't want to do, but I'd taken a vow of obedience. And I had... She told you to do that. Yes. And I, when Mark and I spoke, I showed her, I'm like, look, something's, I basically said, we're not doing this anymore. And I showed her the brand. And I broke my vow of secrecy. Showed her the brand. And she's the one that

pointed out the K.R. Wait, the slave. Yeah. All right, so you drew the line like, I don't want what happened to you to happen. Yeah, you're not, like, she hadn't been branded yet. So we're, we're not doing this. Like, she was one of my good friends. Oh, so you felt safe to confide in her. Yeah. And I knew that she, I knew that she, I knew that she would be loyal to me and not, like, tell Keith and Lauren or whatever that I was going to know that. Just because she, she, she wouldn't have that connection with them. She, like, she trusted me. And she, and she wouldn't throw me under the bus had your husband seen it at this not yet no this is just staying clothed around yeah or like i'd wrap a towel around me and also he'd been in new york we

was going back and forth for new york we weren't in the same city that much and when we were either had like he couldn't see it under my underwear or if i came out of the shower i'd wrap a towel and get dressed in another room like that wasn't a hard thing to keep from him for that time but he can't keep it from not forever no i was planning on telling him forever i wanted it to heal i had a bandage on it It wasn't healed yet. And you couldn't see the bandit? I mean, this is a big score. Yeah, with the bandage under it, it stays under the underwear.

I'm looking at your finger. Yeah, it was this big. It was like, it was like this is two inches, but two inches. It was huge. So Mark and I decide, I tell, I asked Mark if he would tell Nippy, because somehow I felt like. Because you confided in Mark that you were a part of this organization. So I said, can you please tell Nippy? and then somehow, like, I wasn't breaking my vow of secrecy, which makes no sense.

It was like I was safe under his NDA with him. You still felt like you had to keep. You were so, wow. Nipy was in New York when he found out. Nippy, and I was supposed to fly out to New York for the next, this would have been beginning of June. Mark knew details that you didn't. He knew that there was sex involved. He knew it had to do with seducing Keith.

Yeah. And he knew that his organization existed. But then you knew details that could fill in blanks for him. because you had been put into it so you guys communicated about that yes for the first time we weren't siloed and we and we were able to kind of actually understand what it was which was a was an MLM based on blackmail yes was his so his wife had left he was thinking of leaving he was he at this point he had left he had resigned and i wanted to know why okay and we this is like spring 2017 yeah and so this is now may when i was supposed to go back to new york

for a coach summit the beginning of June. Nippy was already there. Mark told Nippy, I flew, we decided to do business as usual. I flew to New York and I'll never forget because it was Nippy's birthday. It was May 29th. We celebrated his birthday the next day. We drove up to Albany. He dropped me off at the FBI. I went and told the FBI everything that I knew that Mark had set up that appointment. Nippy went to pick up his SOP paycheck because they hadn't paid him in months and months, which was a big win, because he, like, got a whatever he got, like, 20 grand or something that he, they had been owed. And we were trying to get that before we, like, pieced out, got his check. I went to the FBI. And then I was supposed to go to the summit, this next coach summit,

where, and my mom knew by now, I told her. Was your mom out at this point? Yeah, she only took a little bit of curriculum and then just sort of like, she peased. Yeah, she came to, like, a couple weeks just to, like, help me with the baby and also just to keep an eye on things and make sure I was okay she was just trying to like stay in my life how did i i want to backtrack for one second mark tells nippy this whole process you're talking about what fbi happens yeah he dropped you off at fbi himself yeah what was the conversation like for the first time when you when told the fbi when you know when you talk to nippy in person did you show him the brand yeah what was that like he he was very angry but not at me which was a relief yeah he luckily he like had enough context for

how these, how the organization operated and how I got, like, I don't know what Mark told him, but he was like, he mean, he wanted, he wanted, he wanted to a play still, yeah, and he actually had to, um, see him and be in a car ride with him for a little while. Um, with Keith. Yeah. And that's when Keith told him about, uh, having a baby with Mariana. Yeah, I know there's so much going. All right. Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. I know. I know. When you have that conversation with him, did Nippy feel guilty? Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, that's, if you ever want to chat with him, I'm sure I'd be happy to tell you. But he felt like he, I mean, it's like he didn't, he didn't, he didn't feel guilty. Like he wasn't able to protect me, ironically, society of protectors, right? Like that whole male protector role he wasn't able to do. But he also knew that, like, we'd been divided and there was nothing. you could have done. So he was, he was very angry. And to this day, I'm like, you need to go to like boxing or like get this out somewhere because he never, I mean, we got justice. He's in jail. But like, he didn't get to, you know, do his thing. Yeah. Yeah. I can't even

fathom that. How long was that conversation with him when you had it? I don't know. That period of time of like telling Mark and like getting out in the FBI was like a two or three week period. and I don't have a lot of memories from that time. I wasn't sleeping much and I wasn't eating much. I can imagine. I was like my whole life was flipped upside down. So he, Nippy, let's just review us so people can follow along. Nippy says, I'm going to take you to the FBI in Albany.

You need to tell them everything. And you completely agreed. You're like, fuck yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, we were in blow up mode. We were, I was. Take the house down. Yeah, yeah. I was so mad.

And the other thing I didn't say is that, like, I knew what had happened to me. and I knew that there were all these women that I'd brought in to Vancouver and I realized very quickly that a lot of them were in DOS and like getting lined up to get branded. And I was livid because I had been lied to and I knew that they'd been lied to

and then I found out, because this all unraveled very quickly as we tried to get people to like not go to, there was another round of branding that was supposed to happen. Yeah, like the next level of DOS slaves, including my best friend who's, she's... Oh, who hadn't been branded? She hadn't been branded yet. Not under me.

She was page in my book. And she was like, you know, I was like, you're not getting on the plane. Do not get on the plane. And I showed her my brand over FaceTime when I was in New York. How did she react to that? She was terrified and like, you know, we'd come up with some excuse that she was sick. And like, you know, I was doing everything I could to, you know, protect her. Wait, no, is that before FBI conversation?

after so after the fbi i what was the fbi conversation like it was brutal and say i have a fucking case to give you yeah and the guy was like but you asked to get branded and like yeah but i didn't ask for his initials on my body like who would do that i'm a married woman why would i want this man's initials on my body and like i pictured that he'd be like okay we're gonna go raid you know the neck and then well i mean they got to get the info yeah they got to yeah but this is by i was hoping that it would move a little faster she's like he's ready to go fucking burn the whole get the torches let's go that's what i have they take you in and how i do you remember how long you're being interviewed maybe an hour not very long that's it an hour me i don't know actually

we've been in here for five yeah me the fuck was your interviewer somebody who did not know got the orio they fucking sucked the keep in mind my interview with the fbi i after the new york times article came out so this is months later that was i spent two and a half days with them yeah because now they got to do the work but an hour the first time maybe maybe more i have no i don't know did you whip the brand out yeah i showed them everything. Yeah. They were like, they were like, this is, this is definitely unconventional. Oh, oh, unconventional. Yeah, they're like, the poor guy, this was not, we didn't, I don't even know who I talked to.

Like, the guy that I spoke to was not the person I should have been speaking to. Yeah, yeah, I, yeah, sounds like the fucking cleanup crew or something. You're talking to the janitor, an hour? I don't, maybe more, I don't know. You know how many times today I've had to be like, well, there's six questions I want to ask right there. We're only going to get to one. Fuck it. And like I said, we're like five hours in.

Oh, shit. That's crazy. Yeah. All right, so you at least gave him the basics. You gave him the spark notes. I gave him the basics. And keep in mind, you said something about like we were whistleblowers, which is absolutely true. In 2009, there was a whole other tangent, but there was another group of whistleblowers who tried to expose Keith.

Who were they? They called them the nexium-9, and they were a group of nexium women who had, like, thought that Keith wasn't doing things above board. And they tried to handle it internally and meet with him. And that's all on tape. And you can, like, Google that if you want to see. it um and they ended Keith let that be recorded yeah he because they recorded everything and that's the then they ended up leaving

and then the organization Claire and Keith sued them especially the main sort of people who were leading that charge so that's how we learned you don't confront the leadership and say hey things are this is like hey you said I was going to get you know no you just you get out and you and so we first we were like we had been told we'd been getting some guidance from other people who had left before it's like you have to leave and you have to create a scene so that it's like a divergence. Like I would have been allowed to leave for a family emergency, for example, right?

So I said that I was on my way, which was true, I was in Albany and I packed up. We had a little home that we like stayed at when we were in Albany. So I like, like, packed up everything. Meanwhile, I'm like, hey, see you tomorrow at the Coach Summit. Were you scared? Oh, my God. Yeah. I was terrified.

Yeah. Yeah. And then Nippy decided to stay in Albany to do business as usual. Well, I took Troy, our three-year-old. I took a nine-hour train from Albany to Toronto, because my grandfather, crazily, ironically, was, had a cancer diagnosis, and he was going in for a surgery. So I was like, I used that actually thing that was happening in reality as my out. So I was like, I'm going to go say goodbye, potentially goodbye to my grandfather, and I'll be back for the summit. I was planning also to do business as usual.

My mom was like, do not go there. The hooks that they have in you are so strong. she was worried that I'd get, like, hooked back in. I didn't think I would, but who knows? Because I didn't do it. Mom was smart. Mom was smart. So I just got my belongings and left.

And then that whole nine-hour train ride, Troy had his iPad on. He slept for someone by, like, his iPad. And I was, like, FaceTiming and showing the scar and, like, getting people not get on a plane and trying to shut it down. Without them, but only telling people that I knew wouldn't go report on me because I don't want to get sued or my collateral be released. So you're immediately going into help mode and save mode, which is great. And a lot is happening.

Oh, it's all right. There's two directions here. First direction. So you guys were scared, which I then implied to mean that it had already crossed your mind at this point that this guy, Keith Reneery, and potentially people around him could be killers. They could come kill you. I was more afraid of being sued or yeah I was I wouldn't I didn't think I wasn't I wasn't thinking that I was thinking that um I don't remember what I was thinking I was like I just have to get I have to get out of here I had to get out of here and stop the branding I have to stop the brand

I wasn't even thinking I would I don't know a lot of stuff going on at the same time I can't quite put myself back in it's like a tornado kind of you're not you don't you're scared you don't even necessarily know everything you're scared of but the one thing that you can remember visualizing was a lawsuit which is interesting because i don't know if i've ever heard about someone like packing up their house and trying to get the fuck out of here for a lawsuit well no no no no that wasn't why i was leaving i needed to get my kid i i just needed to be away from it all and i and i and i and i and i knew i had a bait i didn't not in a toddler and i knew i was never going to come back and i knew that if i got close like i knew that Lauren

My mom was saying, like, Lauren could, you know. Manipulate you into it. Interesting. So, I mean, I was terrified of being caught. I mean, I guess what I was terrified of was not so much being killed, like, my collateral being released. You know, I was, I was nervous about people, I don't know. I mean, I want to go back to Vancouver. I put extra locks on my doors.

Like, it's not necessarily rational. I was just fucking terrified. It's a nine-hour train ride, by the way, from Albany to Toronto? Yeah. Maybe my map is fucked up in my head. I don't know. It was that far. Yeah, it's far.

Okay. Yeah, I think it stops a bit too, maybe. And so Nippy stayed in Albany, and this is when the car ride happens with Keith? Yes, and it's also where he confronts Lauren and Jim. And that phone call is in the vow. All right, which happened first, the car ride? I think so. Okay, so how did that, he was just told he had to get in the car?

He was going to drive. Because Keith didn't drive. Keith, he had to drive Keith somewhere from, like, one thing to another. I don't know if, I don't think it was very long. And he didn't put his, he found a way to do it with a straight face. Mm-hmm. Better man than me. I know.

I know. I don't think he even knew everything we know now. Yeah, but he knew enough. Yeah, he knew enough. He knew enough. He knew, he knew that he, if he had done what he wanted to do, he'd be in jail. And he had to protect his wife and his kid, and he couldn't do that from jail. That's what kept him in check.

And he also, yeah, he, like he, we always joked about how, like, the coach summit that he attended where he confronted and recorded, what he wanted to do is going in, like, flip the buffet, like the egg table, right? But, like, and go postal, but he knew that there were people around Keith that would protect Keith and he'd have to hurt one of his friends, you know, or, like, you know, his poor friends would have to clean up the eggs. And, like, he just, he wanted to be the most effective. And so we created a scene. And we'd been told that the best way to, um, exit something like this was to use our own issues against us. So, like, I had my issues. Yeah.

But also, like, he, he just got pissed and like, what man wouldn't be pissed to have his, his wife's initials? I mean, is another man's initials on his wife. Oh, I mean, it's, that's the least of it. I mean, it's like, I can make a laundry list of a thing. right now that are postal worthy. Yeah. So he decided that was the best way for him is to make a team.

Yeah, and he recorded it and that's in the vow and it's such a great because he's just like for the first time doesn't let Lauren gaslight him. I mean, Lauren's like, what if it's something that you don't understand? He's like, you ran in my fucking wife and it's just like, oh, it's the closest he could get to punching somebody. You know, he, no one stood up to leadership like that. Like that was like Scientology, you don't, you just don't do that. that and he did it and so like that's the next best thing and that's there i'm i'm just thinking because there's like a lot i know and i have to like tell you what happened after and lots yeah he so that's so that's so sinister that he i just can't imagine but that's like i just can't imagine but that's like

on the one hand every man wants his eye for an eye and you would like want to see him do that but on the other hand for the long term it was absolutely a incredible decision for him to just get it on camera and verbally confront Lauren in this case not do anything to Keith and allow him to the legal process to play out. So I don't even know how I want to ask this. I've never had to ask something like this. But like, you know, man and woman, husband protector, right? Something bad happened to you.

You don't blame him for that. But was there a part of you that wanted him to fucking kill Keith? Like, did you hold any of that against him at the time? No, no, because, no, absolutely not. Like, that would have been dumb. I wanted him not in jail. Like, even if he'd gone to defend me and hurt Keith, it doesn't matter. Like, we, how it played out was exactly how it needed to play out.

Yeah. And the way that we did it, getting the media, I mean, first we went to the medical board to file the complaint against the doctor who did the branding. The osteopath, yeah. And then, and meanwhile, I mean, it all happened sort of around the same time and went to the, you know, Barry Meyer at the New York Times. That article, we went there in June and didn't come out until October after Harvey Weinstein. So, Me Too, happened.

That was the other thing. You guys got, do you view that in hindsight is very advantageous, right? You guys got right on the wave of that or the critical story at the time. And they already had the story. They're like, we'll do it when there's a break in the news cycle, right? And then it was like, Me Too happened,

and then that happened. It was just like, we're just part of that wave. And if it happened another time, it might not have had the same result. I don't even know. Were you scared, though? Because, like, there's months in between this actually coming out publicly

and you have to, you know, your grandfather can't be getting surgery for six straight months no oh so backtrack for that second so we were basically playing both sides like that's when i was saying some of the some of the audio in the in the thing with lauren where i'm saying like but wait a second you said this and da da da da da i was out by then so i was making it seem that like i had to navigate nippy's upset and like trying to make it look like i was still in but like confused you know but wait a second you said that Keith was is is sex involved that's if you hear the phone call like I'm saying is Keith having sex with people and she's like we don't discuss that or whatever it is like she's avoiding this topic yeah because you had never

obviously yeah yeah so mean so meanwhile I'm in Toronto I've told a proctor who wasn't in DOS about what happened and and we had this thing in the next time let's talk about the MLM like the tree the pyramid scheme there's a coach tree where if something was happening that we're We text our coaches, we text their coaches. And so it was a great way of disseminating information. So we, like, initiated the coach tree. Sarah and Nipier stepping down from the organization. Mark Vecente left.

Like, we are the leaders for this group of people. They're like, what the fuck's going on? So we let one person know who we knew wasn't going to tell on us what was going on. And we just directed everybody to her. So she was letting everyone know women are getting branded. Keith is not celibate, like as much as information as we could. and people were just resigning and exiting and, like, quitting. So they don't, but they're not attributing that to me

because I'm still terrified of my collateral being released and getting in trouble, right? Meanwhile, I'm not telling people personally. I'm not telling people because I'm still afraid, but this one woman calls me who is a coach in Vancouver and she's like, oh my God, I heard about the branding. Like, I'm supposed to go to Albany. And like, can you please talk to this woman who had assigned, like, the job of bearing the bad news, right?

They were all quitting and what was going on? And she's like, but seriously, Sarah, like branding? And I'm like, Pam, I'm going to show you my fucking brand. Do not go to Albany. And she's like, what? You really got it? And I'm like, the first time I've actually said it. I'm like picking my son up at daycare.

And I'm back in Vancouver now. You know, huddled in the JCC, like, trying to explain what's going on. Then I find out like the next, not even the next day, within the next hour. She's already in DOS, and she'd been sent to record me breaking my vow of secrecy. So from that point on, everybody in the upper ranks cut contact with me. I'm like, I'm now a defector. I'm, you know, a suppressive. I've been revealed as being, you know, not to be trusted.

Do not contact. Is there a part of that, though, that also feels like a little liberating? Oh, 100%. Yeah. Yeah, now is guns ablazing. Right. so you how did you first make contact you had told the FBI they didn't interview again and for the two and a half day thing until after and that wasn't even them that was a different like

it was a different office different office different district yeah they put the bit the real the real FBI yeah yeah apparently yeah the district that I reported in didn't give a shit the I always forget if it's the southern or the eastern district yeah they'll give a shit there yeah where any one of those will give a shit yeah it's Albany I guess is where they're sending the murders or whatever. But yeah. So how did the, let's go back to Mark actually for a second, because Mark knew something about DOS and stuff going on there. And then you were able to corroborate it. And then you, he tells Nippy, you have the conversation with Nippy, you go to FBI, you get the fuck out of town. Mark is now left nexium, right? I have that right. We're all working together.

Mark's working together. I mean, there's a whole other thing that we didn't get into that's in the vow where Catherine Oxenberg, who's famous actress. Oh, yeah, let's do this actually. That's important because she's like royalty. Yeah, so she's royalty. She was in dynasty. She's famous. And her daughter, India was also in DOS.

And she was also like part of those. I don't know, she's part of the heroin, but she had been given an assignment with Keith as well. So Catherine and Mark and Bonnie and Nippy and I were like, there are the five of us. We're the main people that were all doing different things. Catherine was using her celebrity and her connections, like getting people. magazine involved and like you know i i don't actually know who i can't remember who got us the new york times article but somebody did and that's what led to the fbi in my god is the eastern what's brooklyn eastern eastern district thank you so eastern district i'm canadian um the eastern

district mara penza who's here in the city who i love and she's my hero was like that sex trafficking and we're going to get him and did and she acted fast and she contacted my lawyer and brought me to New York, that's in The Vow. And I gave them my computer, gave my phone, I gave my phone, I gave everything. I explained how the organization worked. I mean, similar, feels a little bit similar to today. Like, here's the straight path. Here's how it works.

Here's what we did. Here's how, and I was the first of many witnesses. Were you ever afraid it was going to be turned on you at all? Get to know yourself and your roots better with ancestry DNA. Want to know where your family comes from in northern France? Maybe you'd like to see how your genes influence certain traits like diet, fitness, and allergies. There's so much of you and your heritage to discover. Visit ancestry.ca and get started with an Ancestry DNA kit today.

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And that I was operating on a false premise and that everything that I had done was under the certain context. and I was wanting to, you know, do the right thing. And from the, I mean, as soon as I saw what was going on, I feel like I did the right thing. And I was just like, you know, here's what I got. And you were mass calling, like you said, a bunch of people that you were just recruited into the organization.

Yeah, as soon as a regular, you know, improvement and being like, get the fuck away from this. Yeah. And at this point, now that they knew that I was a defector, I was now I was calling people directly. And I had an event at the center where I, like, showed people the brand and we like how did they react to that i mean up until then it was a rumor you know and they didn't i mean to see it um is pretty like it's it was pretty graphic you know

and people were really upset by it and they didn't you know that they almost needed to see it some of them needed some of them just hearing that nippy and i were leaving like their leadership was stepping down they're like well they're not involved i'm not involved other people are like I need to see it. And so Catherine Oxenberg was a part of this group because she had been involved. Yeah. She has a sister, right? I believe she does.

I think so. Yeah. Can we Google this? I want to make sure I have the family, right, Dief. So Google Oxenberg, Epstein. Uh-oh. So the sister was used by Epstein. If I remember correctly, it's been a while.

But the sister was whistle. Yeah. Christina Oxenberg, a second cousin of Britain's Prince Andrew. Oxenberg was part of the same social circles as the convicted sex offender and his associates during the 1990s. All right. There's a lot here. So the Oxenbergs are interesting. Can we click their Wikipedia?

They're like royalty from another kind. It's not Britain. What country are they royalty from? All right. Yeah. Catherine, American actress. Oxenberg is the daughter of Princess. of Princess Olivia of Yugoslavia

and her first husband, Howard Oxenburg. She twice played Diana Prince of Whale on screens. This is Catherine, who we're talking about. The other one, Christina, went, if I'm remembering correctly, it's coming back to me. She went to Tara Palmeri and had Tara interview her

on one of Tara's two podcasts. Tara did like two eight-part series. One was basically called Epstein. The other one was called Maxwell's. It's like five years ago. and there were multiple episodes where Christina brought her into the Inner Sanctum like, yo, these people were running around

here's what they were doing. I knew Geelan in the 80s or whatever I knew her in the 90s because of the circles she ran in and was like whistleblowing I believe on a bunch of that stuff. That's your sister? Yes, to give her credit. Is it her sister?

Did we find that out? Can we go down a little bit? It'll show it on the right side. Yeah, so she's to go down a little bit deep. relative Catherine Oxenberg's sister. Yeah. Oh, God, I remember her. Quite fascinating.

Wow. That, like, Catherine is in nexium, and then Christina was stuck in these circles, because they're both from New York, too. Yeah. Like, two separate sides of a different coin. There's so many, like, I saw, I don't know if it's a true document, but I saw Ali Mac on one of the flight logs. On the Epstein flight logs.

I mean, on the internet. like i don't know if it's true but like that's and i didn't know but google at thief let's see if it's true alley mac epstein flight log she goes by alie officially i think probably alison might all right let's do alison we got anything just since there's no evidence but that's yeah then maybe that also said nothing to see here when we typed in jeff these those all right Allison Mack wasn't the guillane. By the way, for the record, I wish her all the best. I feel the same no ill feelings with her and Lauren,

like anyone who's woken up and denounce Keith. I'm like, yeah. So she, what, because she's featured throughout the vow, obviously, we talked about this earlier. She also had, you know, the anorexia problems, if you will, like eating disorder problems to try to please Keith. Yeah, she's tiny when she was a victim in that way. But she was convicted because she was a part of DOS and someone who recruited women into it.

But she renounced it in court and served. I don't know how much in the end, but you probably Google that, but not as much as she got off, I think, a little early for, you know, good, whatever it's called. Now, you never, obviously, like, you got out right away when this happened and then you put, recruits away so you you did all the right things but do you think this kind of goes this kind of goes back to something we talked about on the last episode but someone like that she ends up going down in it because she didn't blow the whistle alley but is she of yeah is she a victim or absolutely like nobody even claire Lauren, Nancy, Ali, nobody signed up for what we ended up doing, right?

These women ended up doing more, and they did illegal things and need to be held accountable. And it's not like one or the other. Yes, she was a victim. She also did illegal things. There's a legal system for that. Yes. The difference for me is that, like, I didn't, like, she knew about the sex. And she knew that when she was bringing people in, that they, like, find out about it later.

Right. you never knew about that yeah so even the people that i did bring in to doss like they didn't get branded they never went to albany they were you know protected them immediately how did what were the conversations like summer 2017 with mark who was helping you get out but was also the person who helped you get in i mean we were kind of going through it together Like, he, I mean, he felt terrible. And just in the same way that I felt terrible for bringing people in, we were all kind of swimming in the shame of, like, fuck, how do we miss the red flags and embarrassment? And this is before it was even public, like it wasn't in the New York Times yet.

And that's a whole other level of fucked up. Right. Wait, how so? Well, just like it being public. Like, we, it was. Because now your business is out there. Yeah. You guys good friends to this day?

yeah that's good yeah i have no heart like heart feelings towards him at all yeah he and he lost his marriage they're still together they are still yeah yeah more combined you're still together that's good yeah okay yeah but she got out first she got out first she was we we snippy and i say that like her getting out was sort of the catalyst for all this right and if you watch the vow she you know it stays lovingly like i love you but i'm not doing this and right and gave Mark the space to like, like, she never gave him an ultimatum or anything. She's like, I'm leaving and, you know, kind of presented the information. You need to figure it out on your own time.

Yeah. And he did. Yeah. And I mean, as that was happening, I was in DOS and trying to figure out how to get, like, all this was happening at the same time. Yeah. But her leaving set that everything sort of in motion. Did they tell, when you went to Eastern District, what was the name of the attorney again

over there? That, Maripenza? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So when you're doing, was that where it was the two and a half day interview? Yeah, in Brooklyn. Yeah.

Okay. So are they telling you at some point at the end or during it like, hey, we're going to get this guy he's going to go to prison for the rest of his life like we have? Not there. They didn't tell you any of that. No. No. We didn't know. There was a lot of time between, well, actually not that much time.

They, you know, they interviewed a lot of people. and then they extradited him. And there was a six-week trial, four-hour deliberation. And then the 120-year sentence sentencing came. I don't remember how many months later, but that all happened pretty quick, considering how slow things most usually go. Yeah, I think he was found guilty in, like, 2019 or something, right?

Okay. So New York Times story comes out. Everything's public. What was your initial reaction? Like, what was, did you have people from your childhood or friends reaching out like oh my god i'm so sorry what was that like crazy it was so crazy and also it was i was really happy that it was finally out there because we wanted to like go on the offensive you know what i mean and but at the same time the article if you read it is very dry

it there's no motion in it and it's very like these women did this and it doesn't really explain any of the you know indoctrination and cold it's like you know they're trying not to get sued too So it's like this, this very data, like fact, fact, fact, fact. And I was, there had been two other women that were supposed to be on the record with me. One of them changed their mind at the last minute. Why? Scared. Yeah.

And also was in the vow and changed her mind about that. And the other woman's story, they didn't put in for space. So it was just me. And these are like, I just felt so alone. Like I was, even to this day, like, there's just. so many people that have been affected by this and no one's like come out and really owned it in the same way. You know what I mean? I think you should, I mean, well, I don't want to tell you how to feel. But I mean, I think there has to be an aspect of that that you should

be really proud of yourself because like I'm not going to, I don't want to speak for other victims. I can't imagine all the different emotional things they're playing with there. But like you need at least one person to break the dam and, you know, not really the way I want to say, but like be brave enough to come forward. And you did that. And I can imagine, yeah, I can imagine you feel alone with that for sure. But like, you spoke for all of them. And I'm sure not only did they all know that, but I would venture to say off the record, there's probably been some that have reached out to you and told you some version of that. Am I right about that?

Yeah. Yeah. 100%. So that should, again, I don't like how you got to feel it. No, I appreciate that. I would feel, I would hope you feel very validated by that. I do. Yeah.

And I also recognize that a lot of the women have, you know, a lot of shame about it because of sexual stuff, which is largely how these people get away with it because they, they, they rope them into doing the sexual things and they don't want to be, you know, so who wants to be associated with that? Yeah. Yeah. It's the thing that never goes away for people. It's like the ultimate betrayal. I mean, there's not, there's no, I make no. This is, this is like, this is like total rape. What, what happened to you?

It's, there's no distinction there for me. I mean, it's just like, I've never seen anything like it. I've never heard some fucked up shit. Yeah. Some pretty fucked up stories. This is a one of one as far. like the things that happen I don't it was a real I've never really used that word but it felt like that yeah and again I also haven't experienced that so I can't you know the

actual rape victims that may say hey no that's not so I also don't want to you know what I mean like I don't want to it's the closest I said that not you thank you it's fine but in terms of a boundary crossing which is really ultimately what happens slowly over time with cults as your boundaries, you're getting more and more and more removed. Your autonomy is less and less. And I just, like, the absurdity that Keith would think that he could put his initials on a married woman, especially Nipi's wife. Like, Nipi's 6-2. You know what I mean? Like, what a fucking ridiculous thought that he could. He's a megalomaniac. He has no concept of reality. No. And that he could get away with it. And I think ultimately that's what was happening is that he recognized that people would leave him. And he was trying to create a system of loyalty with blackmail through the branding and keeping people locked in. But it's what blew it, what blew it up for him. He got greedy.

And, yeah, mess with the wrong people. Troy, your son, Troy's 11 now? Does he know any of this? Yeah. How old was he when you told him about? it um i started telling him slowly as it was age appropriate i got emotional when you asked just because he's been really like really supportive and like yeah he's he's proud of us you know and um and my my dedication is to to him to my both boys and hoping that one day they'll read it they haven't read it yet obviously and be proud um he's seen nippy and i be like recognized

for the vow and like on public people who see us and you know want to give us a fist bumber a thank you and that's cool that's really cool for him yeah he knows that we did something cool every now and then it'll like he did an assignment for school where he like drew a picture of Keith behind bars I was like a fuck that was pretty epic yeah I just hope it never bites him in the butt that's what I really don't want why would it bite him in I don't know. Like, I don't want him to go to school with someone and they'd be like, oh, and their parents were, like, they weren't a sex cold or, like, you know what I mean? Like, that's...

Well, we'll find out how good a boxer he is. Yeah, right? Yeah. I think it'll be all right. Tori's like, he's such a cool kid. He's just, he's just a real, he's a little baller. He's a total, he's a baseball player football. Like, he's just so into his sports and he's just like, honestly, sorry. That's okay. having a three-year-old during this time

folk kind of forced us to get our shit together you know and so I don't whatever I don't want to like pressure I don't want to it's a lot of pressure to put on a kid to say like you saved me but like at being able to to refocus and to being a mom you had a reason I had a reason to like get out of the trauma and like get on with my life

and also having a kid just made me want to like warn other parents you know this is what this is what it looks like it's not just cults it's like pedophile coaches and you know it happens in the boy scouts it happens gymnastics teams it happens like any group can become culty any any any you got to know what the red flags are so it's sorry I was grab a tissue no take your time um paper towel uh yeah But I'm very grateful for Troy for giving me a reason to, you know, not wallow in it for too long and just get on with my life. It's funny how in the worst of situations, life can throw you these unbelievable silver linings that, you know, teach you more than you can even teach them in this case in a way. through no effort of his own but also i think it's pretty cool that like literally having him

was the initial thing that started to make you go wait a minute yeah what am i doing this for right what is this what's going on because that protective mode goes in too just like you were outlining like now i would imagine when it comes to being vigilant on you know the worst types of pitfalls there's probably not a better parent out there than you and nippy like you understand all of it you know So if there were ever anything questionable around him, you know, around either of your boys, like, you're going to be up to that right away. That's, you know, so it's like you go through a horrible thing. You got to pull yourself out of it. But then, you know, there's something you can, there's good you can use from it.

Yes. And you're using it on your own kids, which is great. Yeah. And teaching them things like just, you know, beyond predators, but just like, you know, teaching them how to trust their gut and to. to voice, like, and it's come to, it's, it, me in the past a couple times where Troy's been like, Mom, I've said, no. Don't cross my boundary.

And I'm like, shit. You're right. You're right, Troy. And I apologize. I apologize. God, we have such a great relationship. It's just the other day I was, we started in a new school and we had like a school event and he was looking really grubby.

And I was like trying to get him to change his clothes because, like, I had where it was put on something nice. And he was like, mom, I'm fine. and fine. I'm like, I was pushing. And he again did that. And I, I had to recognize like, oh my God, I, this is me wanting to fit in in this environment. Like, and I, like, Troy, I want you to know. I pushed. And I'm, I don't, I'm sorry for that. And that was my own insecurity about wanting to like fit in in the new school. And, you know, and he's like, it's okay, mom. Is this paramedopause? I'm like, yes.

Blame it on that. I can believe a lot of things on that. That's still like, you know, because you said you started telling him over. time and he's only 11 now i mean i don't know how much of it he knows i don't need to ask that but like that's a it's a very that's impressive that he's able to handle it that well it's a very heavy thing there's no playbook no there's no playbook for this as to how to tell a kid we actually saw i can't remember what the cartoon was we saw some cartoon where like it was almost like the writers had seen the vow or something but it was like a dragon that was hypnotizing the other dragons and it was some kid's cartoon and i was like that's what it was like for me and i showed him the

show and he's like, oh, so we called it that mom and dad were hypnotized, which is sort of true. Well, I mean, that is literally Nancy Salsman was a hypnotist or whatever. Yeah. I think there is a long, I'm not an expert, but I think there is a long term aspect of that with like the psychological anchoring we were talking about. I would imagine from a neurological perspective, it's a very similar phenomenon to literal like on-site hypnotist. hypnotism in a way, right?

Did you see the show Sirens? It was probably more of a chick show than you thought of. Sirens. Why does that sound for that? It was on Netflix, I want to say, like, pretty recently, and it was sort of like one of those shows was number one for a while. But Julianne Moore was in it, and she played the sort of, like, culty leader. And there was this one scene where she hooks in somebody,

and it was such a great depiction of what it felt like to be locked in with somebody and be seen. and then with some, and then be swayed. I don't know how to describe it. You have to watch it to feel it. But when I was watching, I was like, that's what it was like to be under the spell. Yeah. Did you attend the trial when it happened?

I did not attend the trial. So I had my second baby, my second baby ace. And I was originally going to be a witness. I was like geared to be a witness. And then Lauren turned. So Lauren, like I would have been testifying. Oh, she got to testify. Yeah.

So she got to testify. So I didn't have to. I mean, that's great. I'm also surprised they still didn't make you do that because there's always the accusation, sometimes correctly in other cases, by the way, where it's like, wow, a witness was facing time, so they turned in that way,

whereas you were just like an actual whistle. Yeah, I was, but I also would have been a terrible witness because at that point I'd done so much press and they would have been like, isn't it true that you wrote a book and you got in advance? They would have made it. Their whole thing, their whole angle of Nexian

this whole time is that I was like an out-of-work actress looking for attention. Right? So, like, that was their whole schick, right? So I was like, and I'd said in one interview that it was 25 minutes and one interview that was 30 minutes, like, I'm not a good, I wasn't a good witness anymore. And they told me that. They're like, you're, you've been too public and they would have just shredded me for being inconsistent or attention seeking. Well, I mean, it, look, it did, it did work out. You didn't have to put yourself through that and he was found guilty in four hours on a very complex list of charges. Of all seven charges. Yeah, which means they didn't even let. the pizza get there no jury was pretty clear on this did he didn't testify on his own behalf right no no that would have been an hour deliberation yeah yeah did you know that his lawyer is also p ditty's lawyer wait the dude with the glasses mark ignifalo i mean mark agnifalo is a good lawyer but wasn't good enough for fucking that that's what i was like when p ditty hired him i was like he got keith got 120 years what do you do it but i guess he did better hey listen they can't win every case

no but you know listen those guys i've had i'm friends of brian mcmonicle he's been on here bry mcmonicle remind me who that is he he's one of the best attorneys to ever live he he got bill cosby off and then quit and then bill cosby got found guilty afterwards but you know i've known bryan mcmonicals mcmonicle since i was four years old wow he's from my town probably the most moral guy you'll ever meet in your life maybe the greatest person ever like i will tell that to everyone i've ever known but he has to do a really difficult job and we talked it we had him in for episode 115 and you know he he opened up about it a lot he took a while he's not like a he's not like a he's one of those like you got to talk for a while and then maybe he'll give you something but

he really did and and like you know they I'm sure there's some guys that sit on that side that are actual scumbags and don't give a shit and just want to make a lot of of money and win cases but like he ain't one of them and and there's and there's some big ones that you would think might be that and and they're not they really they believe in the objectivity of the law and putting the government to the test and you know when one of their clients has found guilty who's actually guilty and they did their job and argued their case and that's what it is like they go home and they sleep okay with that i was always wondering how they sleep like but pdity yeah yeah i mean that's a whole other podcast like four years yeah that one

I had Jesse Weber in here before it start right before it started he's the guy on law and crime if you ever seen him yeah he's great great dude and I had him on right when it finished so I think it was episode 220 with him right when it finished but I had a feeling that was going to go down that way because the case had so many problems yeah I mean to me he's so clearly just one of the worst people never walked this earth unfortunately that's not evidence in court though they had amazing evidence against keith right like they were able to build that case on all the charges it was clear they had them on tape everywhere yeah with ditty it was like one of the witnesses one of the main witnesses like didn't even show up to court oh i don't know

that yeah yeah witness i think it was witness three correct me in the comments if i have the number wrong but like she didn't even show up and then the Cassie one that's the girl who he beat the ever living in the in the hotel horrible yeah but like there was also a lot because of other witnesses there was a lack of clarity on some of her credence or whatever it was just it was a messy messy case but i do appreciate the judge still gave him four years and from people i've talked to again correct me experts in the comments like it this was the kind of thing where if it were someone else and they've been found guilty of the same charges it would have gotten time served yeah and they'd be out of there so the judge still gave him time and hopefully he's blackballed forever but there was there

was some other stuff going on there right there were some that was some blackmail I can't prove this but there I think there were some other reasons for that I'm sure yeah I mean Keith gets 120 he gets four like that's crazy yeah I totally crazy totally agree but like better than nothing yeah did you feel it's better than nothing for diddy but for keith once you knew he was going away forever was there a sense of relief oh yeah relief vindiction um you know also sadness for like this world that we thought we were building that wasn't what it was like just the grief of all that you know the lock the last the lack of community loss of community all the collateral damage of all the people's lives caught up in it years lost like

so much feeling. And then also, Keith's fucking smart, you know. He's still trying to find loopholes. He's trying to do this whole thing about, like, the FBI planted evidence, started this big campaign and blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, the evidence that they said, by the way, that he plant, that they planted was about what the other Fernandez sister being underage and like a photo of like a scar that was the metadata. Okay, this is a shit show. But like, worst case scenario, can you want to do another trial? let's get that sister on trial the first time she didn't testify because she didn't want to be involved now and then she ended up writing a letter a what's it called a victim impact statement yeah victim impact statement that like put most of the other evidence like this the like she's like he started he started with me when I was 15 and correct me if I'm wrong in the comments something to the extent of like it like you so okay let's say worst case scenario FBI planted evidence let's let's try this again and we'll start with Cammy on the witness

And she, and he trafficked her here from Mexico. Yeah. I mean, it's like. Yeah. So you want to, you want to start this again, Keith? Like, so anyway, but there's always the back of my mind that he's going to find some loophole, right? That's, but so far he's, you know, living his best life in prison. Yeah, I don't think it's very good life, thank God.

Yeah. Do we know of any family he had, minus the mystery kid? The dad, his mom, um, his mom died when he was young. His dad also has since died. He's got two kids, so one is the one that escaped. And then there one is Mariana Fernandez's son. And they're in Mexico. I don't know anything.

I don't know how that's going. But as far as I know, she's still in. I mean, he's got Keith's son. She's still in? Well, she's, yeah, she's still a believer. As far as I know, I could be wrong. Yeah. And their son's name is Kmar, which is a combination of Keith.

And Mariana. Oh, Jesus Christ. K-E-M-R-K-M-R. Poor kid. Do you forgive Lauren? Yes. Yeah, absolutely. She wrote a really beautiful letter that I got through my lawyer, and she knows that I

forgive her. We haven't been able to talk because of the civil case, but I'm hoping, like, I really want to hug her and... Canada's Wonderland is bringing the holiday magic this season with Winterfest on Select Nights, now through January 3rd. Step into a winter wonderland. with millions of dazzling lights, festive shows, rides, and holiday treats. Plus, Coca-Cola is back with Canada's kindest community, celebrating acts of kindness nationwide,

with a chance at 100,000 donation for the winning community and a 2026 holiday caravan stop. Learn more at Canada's Wonderland.com. Like, have resolution. I don't know if we'll ever be, like, you know, friends again, but, you know, a lot of times passed her testimony against Keith was the nail in the coffin. she woke up she's made amends we're good good for you yeah what what civil you can't talk to her because there's a civil case edmondson versus renari that's in in actually oh and she's a witness in that or something yeah yeah i don't really fully understand it's not allowed to talk she's been let out of it like she was originally it was right right but we've let her out because she's cooperating but

i'm still not allowed to talk to her got it and that's still ongoing in court obviously what a mess yeah All right I don't even I don't even want to ask this one But go for it Can't say I'm going to answer it But we'll see Do you forgive Keith

No No Good for you Fuck you Not you Fuck you Keith He said yes I was gonna fall under the table

No Rotten Hall of Keith I don't think he wants forgiveness either I think he's pretty bought in No he thinks I don't know what he thinks I give a shit

What do you think now now that enough time's passed you've been out for a while the story's been public for a long time you've gone about your life you raise awareness not just to this but to other things you know it's it's a it's something that's always going to be with you there's aspects of it that are always going to be traumatic that's just how it is but now that years have passed like do you forgive yourself too yeah you're a good interviewer wow Yeah, I do. It's been a long healing journey together, but yeah.

Yeah, I do. That's good. You should. Thanks. What about Nippy? Do I forgive him? I think I already asked you that, but does he forgive himself too? I think so.

Yeah, I think so. It's, you know, we work together. We have this podcast together. We're writing a book together now, like everything we've learned. and trying to figure out how to like package it all up and a little bow so we can give it to other survivors and maybe wrap this chapter up, which I feel like it's kind of coming to an end soon.

You know, maybe back to Hallmark movies. I don't know if they'll ever have me again. But, you know, our healing journeys are very different. Like his role was different in the organization. He didn't recruit in the same way. I had a lot of, I had a lot of cleanup to do. You know, making sure everyone had a lawyer, making sure everyone had therapy,

get back on their feet like I he didn't have that same that same level of responsibility I don't think because he didn't bring people in the way that I did so um I think his is more was wrapping his head around like how did he fall for it you know like how did he how did he miss it maybe yeah everyone's gonna feel that way it's amazing though that you guys have a great marriage through all this meeting each other in there then obviously you get the blessing to have some kids along the way too that's our silver lining that's a huge silver lining and like you guys get out together and everything but were there times where you were worried your marriage wasn't going to work strictly just because of the weight of the situation, not necessarily your own two faults?

Yeah, I mean, maybe at the beginning when the PTSD was really bad and we didn't really know what we were going to do. But COVID was actually a really, and it was terrible for most people in the world. For us, you know, we'd gone back to acting and then all of a sudden the world shut down and we could just like be together as a family and go for hikes. slow down and that was a really good time for us to just reconnect and figure out what's next and then the valve came out and then our lives blew up and we started a podcast or like okay I guess this is what we're doing now but this was that kind of happened by accident we weren't like

you know this is going to be the next phase of our lives but it's it's things happen for a reason it worked out that way yeah and it's it's like you're you're constantly being able to face it together too, which I think is great, you know, not that you want anyone to be a victim, but if you're going to do it, you have two people to understand that. I'm so glad I'm with him and this. There were so many other women that got out, like, other women that I was branded with, actually, that were alone and, like, their families were like, you joined a cult, you're dumb, you know, and yeah, terrible. Their families couldn't? Oh, yeah. Like, you would, I mean, we, we have some, we have distant family members that were like, I told you it was a cult. I'm like,

you know that you'd be surprised how some people are just not very sensitive to the topic my immediate family was like i'm so happy you're back okay i was gonna yeah no no my mom and my dad my brother and sister like everybody has been amazing i'm talking more like cousins and and that's still crazy like yeah fuck you but so your your relationship with your mom and your dad great is great yeah and what so your dad was never never in it or anything no he took her aculeum also oh he did yeah Oh, he pulled him and built. Yeah, yeah, everybody. God damn it.

Yeah, there are no stone left unturned. Right. Yeah. But how does he feel? Like, obviously, you said he's been very supportive. He's very supportive. But yeah, he did enough little curriculum on the outside to, like, get the benefit from it, like the goal setting and things like that. And, you know, there was, in fact, my mom wanted to do an intervention.

And my dad was like, they, she seems good, you know. Damn it, Dad. Yeah, I know. my mom was like see I should have done it but I was like why didn't you guys try to get me out like even when people would joke about like you're in a call or like that's weird I'm like nobody really sat me down except for one person at the end that's in my book actually one of my best friends husband sat me down like tried to show me some of the articles I'm like it's all a smear campaign you know and he's like that's not how the media works like some of it can be exaggerated but like showed me the Bronfman stuff and all these things and I tried to show him the Tourette's movie and he wouldn't watch it I was like, look, look. She was worried he was going to get it. I'd never forget, he, like, shot my computer. I'm like, look, Pepe, you're not even looking at, like, what's good about it.

I'm like, I'm sure there's good. You're not looking at what's bad. And that planned at a seed, because I realized I wasn't. I wasn't willing to look at it because I'd been told that was all smear campaign, and it's not ethical to take in this slanderous information about Keith. And I'm like, well, what a part of it is true. I don't even know. So it just, you know, that's all you can do.

By the way, if there's anyone listening who knows somebody who's, and to something like this, don't go tell them they're in a cult. Just plant seeds, ask questions. Plant seeds. You know, and suggest they, you know, watch the vow. A lot of people woke up from things they were in because they saw the vow and they're like, oh, shit. I'm in this similar thing because when you're in it, you can't see it.

Right. I think that you're dedicated to something and, you know, we can see that in politics and we see it in all sorts of groups where it's like you're, yeah, yeah, separate topic. Yeah, there's a real, but no, you're. You're absolutely right. I see it all the time. People get their meaning in very strange things these days that are threads. Forget like a full group where your community with people and stuff like that and get sucked in.

But, you know, do you work through a lot of this with therapy as well? I think so, yeah. So that was a big help dealing with PTSD. Yes. Did you do that with Nippy as well? I mean, we did couples counseling. We still do. I did my own, like, cult related, like speaking to therapists who are cult.

specialist, which is a very different thing, like your average therapist, there's not, if they don't understand coercion or they don't understand cultic dynamics or high control groups, they're not going to be able to help, really. Whoa. Yeah, especially if like this or landmark or any of those other Al-GATs, remember a large group awareness trainings, if you go in, those are therapy-based programs. If you go to a regular therapist, a lot of the questions will sound the same as the questions that were asked to me.

And so it'll be very triggering. Yeah. So I was very lucky to have a couple of therapists who, like, already knew about X-EM, already knew the players, already knew about Nancy. Oh, that's huge. Yeah, huge. Very, very lucky. Do you forgive Nancy? It's a complicated one.

She's never, I mean, Lauren wrote a letter, you know. Nancy could write a letter. If you watch season two of the vow, there's actually, and she's being interviewed by the vow people, and she said there was a time when she was more mad at me than she was at Keith. For blowing the whistle? Yeah. Keith is the one that ruined her life. I just exposed it. Not me personally, but like the group of us, you know?

But like I was sort of the face of it, right? And she's directed that at me. I mean, that was a whole other thing. Like, I was the darling of Nexium. I was the top star recruiter. I was like bringing all these people into the organization, making tons of money. I'm saying I'm hurt. I'm saying I'm leaving.

You don't call me. Right. You don't say like, hey, are you okay? Do you need NEM? Like, how can I help? That's crazy. It's crazy. And that's, there's actually a phone call, if you want to be very satisfied in season two of the vow.

Nancy's, for some reason, saved a message where I'm like, the fuck are you doing. Why aren't you, like, you're, like, I call her out and she saved this voicemail and played it for the vow filmmakers. They even called me and they're saying, it's okay if we play this? I'm like, go ahead. I mean, captures a slice of the time where I'm like, why aren't you even reaching out to me? Like, she called me her bonus daughter. cults will cut people off as soon as you're not in line with the mission seeing it again and again in all these examples did this like we had talked earlier about you not necessarily having a religion

or spiritual thought process growing up or anything like that and then found some meaning obviously in purpose and what obviously turned out to be a cult but like now now that you have kids and you're removed from this like do you ever think about what what it's all for? Always. What do you think? I don't know. Good answer. Yeah. I'll never know anything ever again is one thing I feel is when people are like, oh, it's this or that, like, we're on this huge planet, we're going through space. There's like other, who knows what else is out there. I feel like I'm open, but also closed at the same time. You know what I mean? Like I'm a curious atheist. I identify culturally as being Jewish. I celebrate Christmas. I'm a human. I

care about people. I do yoga. I smudge some sage. I drink my green juice. You know, like I have my patterns of things that make me feel good and grounded. I put my feet in grass. I go hike in nature at microdose. I like try to take care of myself. There you go. Yeah. Is there a part of you that wonders how like, how like a creator could let something like this happen on earth? Hmm I don't know if I have an idea of like a creator I guess I feel like there's some source bigger than us maybe That's

I don't know sometimes when I'm on mushrooms I'm like is this even real Like we're in a matrix like what what is this Walk through Times Square And be like what the fuck is what are we doing What is this? I don't know Um thief's like no

I know I'm good yeah I accidentally did it last night I was like this is fucked up um past a naked cowboy yeah clutching my purse yeah

I don't know I just I miss at the stage now we're like I'm it happened for a reason and I know that's sort of woo-woo spiritual like everything happens for a reason no

it's how I've had to like make sense of it like okay i i did that so that i could do this is sort of how i how i feel about it now if there's someone listening right now who maybe is coming to the realization that whatever in whatever context you know they're a part of a cult or caught up in something like that and they are afraid afraid to get out afraid to say anything just afraid to get out yeah start there what would you say to them? I'd say don't tell anybody in your group. Don't go to your upline or your coach or your proctor or your priest or your whatever above you. Go outside the organization, do some research. We're a little bit culty.com slash resources has a ton of things that people

look at books and podcasts and movies and cult informed specialists, but also like, you know, lists of what makes a cult. And if you're unsure, of something like go to Reddit, go to find people who've left and find out why they left. Don't tell the organization you're questioning because that's really dangerous. But if people are part of something and they want to question it and they want to get out, there's so much resources on the other side that are available for people. Yeah, I've seen some really good examples of that with Scientology. I was obviously more familiar with that.

But, you know, they have like an underground railroad system there of people. Getting them out. They need it. I mean, it's crazy. and it's scary and, you know, I really appreciate you being so open about this today. I know none of that goes away and it's difficult, but, you know, you coming out has saved countless, countless people who were in it and are able to get out and people who would have been in it and now never did.

So I hope you and Nippy can be proud of that. It's a pretty awesome thing. Thank you. I appreciate that. I'm I'll keep that in my pocket on the on the hard days absolutely so we'll have a link to your book scarred down below in the description we'll also link let's make a note of this if we would be sorry let's let's link your podcast as well a little bit culty that'd be great hosted by you and nippy you guys talk to people from all different types of cults who have gotten

out or exposed it or which is very cathartic for us and very very meaningful that's actually So the delay in coming on your podcast, I was working on the next book, which is going to be a resource for, we're hoping to reach college age kids so that they can educate themselves and inoculate themselves before they go out into the world. Oh, that's great. Yeah. So I'll put that in. Very cool. So when that comes out, I'll pump that on social media for sure. Thank you.

But thank you so much, Sarah. This was two episodes today. That was the longest interview I've ever done. I appreciate the kind line of questioning and the empathy. it makes it easier well that's the least i can do so thank you so much for doing it thank you all right everybody else you know what it is peace get back to me peace thank you guys for watching the episode if you haven't already please hit that subscribe button and smash that like button on the video they're both a huge huge help and if you would like to follow me on instagram and x those links

are in my description below