Julian Dorey Podcast - #371 - “DESTROYED ME!” - Psychonaut on his Abuse, Epstein & Ayahuasca | Kendis Gibson • 371

Episode Date: January 8, 2026

SPONSORS: 1) MANDO: Control Body Odor ANYWHERE with @shop.mando and get $5 off off your Starter Pack (that’s over 40% off) with promo code JULIAN at https://Mandopodcast.com/JULIAN!#mandopod 2) AMENTARA: Go to https://www.amentara.com/go/JULIAN and use code JD22 for 22% off your first order. 3) HOLLOW SOCKS: For a limited time, Hollow Socks is having a Buy 3, Get 3 Free Sale—visit https://hollowsocks.com to get up to 50% off your order. (***TIMESTAMPS in description below) ~ Kendis Gibson is is a 2x Emmy Winning Belizean-born American journalist. His book, "Five Trips" recounts his 5 psychedelic trips he took in an effort to heal his severe trauma. KENDIS' LINKS - IG: https://www.instagram.com/kendisgibson/?hl=en - BOOK: https://www.amazon.com/Five-Trips-Investigative-Journey-Psychedelic/dp/B0DB2PCVY9 FOLLOW JULIAN DOREY INSTAGRAM (Podcast): https://www.instagram.com/juliandoreypodcast/ INSTAGRAM (Personal): https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey/ X: https://twitter.com/julianddorey JULIAN YT CHANNELS - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Clips YT: https://www.youtube.com/@juliandoreyclips - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Daily YT: https://www.youtube.com/@JulianDoreyDaily - SUBSCRIBE to Best of JDP: https://www.youtube.com/@bestofJDP ****TIMESTAMPS**** 0:00 - Intro 1:31 - Living in Bedstuy as a Kid, Working in New York Media early 4:27 - Covering 9/11 live, Building 7 Theories 15:53 - Epstein Files, Epstein Death & News Cycle Weirdness, Kendis knows Epstein’s Chefs 32:25 - Epstein’s NDA was INSANE, Kash Patel & Dan Bongino 41:21 - Kendis’ 5 Trips Book, Heroic Dose in Belize Ruins (STORY) 51:53 - Kendis witnesses tragic death, SSRIs 56:32 - Kendis’ Childhood Abuse (STORY), Finding friend's body 1:02:15 - Processing Abuse, MDMA Trip, Forgiveness 1:21:18 - Getting rid of accent, Growing up w/ abusive brother, ABC made Kendis want to end it 1:26:03 - 2018 Struggles, Kendis decides to end it (STORY), Plant Medicine 1:33:53 - Most Physically Abusive Trip He Had, Paul Rosolie, Ayahuasca 1:48:32 - Ayahuasca Trip in Peru (STORY), Mario the Shaman 2:01:05 - The Shamanism, Julian recalls his Ayahuasca Trip, Ayahuasca made Kendis realize 2:20:15 - Julian reflects on his Ayahuasca trip in Peruvian Amazon 2:30:23 - Kendis’ Work CREDITS: - Host, Editor & Producer: Julian Dorey - COO, Producer & Editor: Alessi Allaman - https://www.youtube.com/@UCyLKzv5fKxGmVQg3cMJJzyQ - In-Studio Producer: Joey Deef - https://www.instagram.com/joeydeef/ Julian Dorey Podcast Episode 371 - Kendis Gibson Music by Artlist.io Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You had struggled with some serious trauma from childhood, and then it kind of like, I guess, bubbled up all to the surface at once and what, maybe 2017, 2018, something like that? 2018, yeah. Okay. So what was, and don't go into anything you don't want to go into, but what was the nature of that? So childhood, as I mentioned, there was born in Belize,

there was six brothers, and we had like three bedrooms. So I was on the lower bunk. older brother was in the bunk above and then another brother that would have his own bed um and i remember it distinctly because i had my first birthday party ever at six years old and uh that night was the first night that my older brother um he just crawled down into the lower bunk and pull down my, uh, PJs and, and abuse me. And it would continue for, I'd say, eight to nine more months that it would take place. How old was he? Hey, guys. If you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five-star

review. They're both a huge, huge help. Thank you. But back in the day, you guys had seven. in one one bedroom apartment. Yeah, we had seven one bedroom apartment. It was pretty rough. Was there a party you, like as a kid? Because you don't fully understand everything that's going on. Like, is there a party?

It's like, shit, I want to go back to Belize? Or we're excited to be here? You know, I was excited to be here, but I thought I didn't know what was it about this place that I wanted. You know, we had all these dreams. I wanted to play baseball because I thought that still, from my Gary Matthews' experience, that was my ticket out.

out of this poverty. And then I realized there's something about baseball that you really need to do in order to play it. And it's to be good at it. And I wasn't that at all. And then so we'd go home and I'd watch the news on TV every day. And I was like, maybe I should do that. We learned about Gary Matthews through television.

So that could be my ticket out of poverty still. And so as like a 12, 13 year old, I decided, okay, that's what I'm gonna get into. And I would call like some of the newscasters up at Channel 7 here in the city and like Cole call them. And they'd answer their phones. Wow. You call me now, I'm not answering my phone.

Yeah, we got Core ID now. Exactly. They'd answer the phones and they'd talk to me and give me advice. And so I started learning about the business throughout way. But poverty was rough. And then you ended up going to school for that and everything. Yeah. And you did that, I mean, especially like in the news media track, you know, a lot of people

will start out in like Wichita, like Channel 13 or whatever, and they worked their way all around. So I know you've been like all over the country at this point with what you did. But you were able, I guess like when you were still pretty young, like to, to, I would say, almost fresh out of school, you were able to work in New York, right? Like for one of the networks? Yeah, pretty early on. So I did, the thing is, I, I skipped two grades when I was younger. Oh, you're smart. It was pretty smart. I got, I caught up by skipping those two grades. I'm like, oh, wow,

I'm the dumbest person in this room now. Thanks. So I did a lot of internships when I was a kid. My first internship was at the Today Show. I met Katie Couric. I was there with Brian Gumbull at the time. And I, uh, I, I, met a lot of people who helped mentored me. I did a number of different internships. And so early, early on in my career in my 20s, I did come here to New York where I was sort of like a local reporter, but for national news. So where you would do, you would report national stories, but just for all the hundreds of local TV stations across the country. Gotcha. Now, you were, you were also one of the first guys on the scene for 9-11, right?

As far as I could tell, you know, it's kind of hard to tell. I know I was down there minutes after the second plane went down because I lived just down the block from it. I remembered trying to figure out to, okay, where are we going to get to? At that point, we didn't have cell phones, or at least not the standard cell phones that we have now. We had the bricks and such, and we had pagers. So I went, used a pay phone.

I had to pay $20 to use a pay for him because Homeboy was like, nah, we're price gouging. Like, I called our folks to say, like, all right, what do you guys want me to do? And it's when I'm in that building that the first tower goes down. Oh, my God. But I was several blocks away from the scene by this point. And then... What was real fast? Just back up for one second, if you don't mind.

When you first look up and you're like, holy shit, something just hit the first tower. And obviously, like, you live down there. so you're close to it, you're seeing it. Like, what's going through your head before the second plane even comes? So I, the second plane already hit before. That's when you knew. You didn't know when the first one. Exactly.

So the first plane hit, my beeper goes off. And they say they're, you know, playing into World Trade Center. I don't remember what codes we were using for playing into World Trade Center at the time. Remember beepers had codes for I love you. I don't remember that. I must have missed that. You don't remember that. Yeah, I was a little young for that.

Sorry. Fuck you. And so I had some friends who had just gotten in from the UK the night before. And if you have any British friends, you know that your first night in New York is a party night. Oh, yeah. So I don't think I was hung over yet. Yeah. I was still drunk when the first plane went into the building because we had partied all night long.

And I expected... On a Monday. I'm not going to be judged. No judgment. City never sleeps. Because with that job in particular, you're on when there's something that breaks, for the most part. And so I didn't anticipate 9-11. It's going to be a slow Tuesday.

Yeah, exactly. It's going to be, yeah, it's going to be easy. And then they said, we're going to need you. And then I'm in the shower when this is. second one goes down and air goes in and then I start walking which is like 15 or so blocks street blocks or so towards and I go into the phone booth to try to figure out okay where do you guys want me to go with our crews and first building goes down and I'm on the phone and they're telling me the first tower went down and it just did not compute done the process

yeah I'm like what how it didn't it didn't it didn't make any sense to me. And then as I'm coming out, they said come back towards 30 Rockerville Center as I'm walking up Sixth Avenue at this point is when the second one comes down. Everybody had stopped and they're starting looking this way and I'm like, it was, it took a while to hit to understand what was going on.

It was just really, really, just such a weird, surreal time. and the thing about journalism we have made a career of being there on people's worst day of their life yeah um and then we leave the thing about 9-11 is you're there and you're covering the story you're living in it you're breathing in it i mean we were smelling the dead bodies you couldn't get away from the stress of that one particular story it was the first thing first time that I realized, oh, wow, you know, I'm feeling the impact of an actual story. I mean, I empathize with people whenever I'm hearing their stories, but this one was the first time that it really was hitting me to the core because it was impact in my life as well.

Yeah, you can't ever get away from it. It's right there. You're literally living in the middle of it, you know. Yeah, I don't, I've talked to many people on the show who were there that day in different capacities, different places, different angles. almost like you kind of get a new perspective on it every time someone talks about it because there's no way that when when you have something so crazy like that happened that you know the processing happens the same for any two people yeah you're just like what the fuck I mean

your story's unique in that you're like wait I was just partying like two hours ago the fuck is happening here but you know when when that my friends went down and they saw building seven collapse, magically collapse. Yeah. Yeah, it was quite magical. It fell in perfect unison, right? Yeah. Don't ask any questions about that, though.

No, no, do not. We can't go there. Did anyone say that at that time? Like, no, we can't talk about that? No, but my friends, okay, so when they came back, and they saw it collapse, they were like, we don't understand why it did. It was no fire.

There was no nothing. and they ran away from it when it came down yeah um they but at the time like nobody nobody thought it was just this magical implosion by osmosis or something right you know um it wasn't until years later yeah i and then when you find out like what offices were in there all these different government departments in there you're like what yeah and the and the files that were all there gone to smithereens smithereens yeah exactly never to be seen again it's really strange it is very strange um and who knows if we will ever get to the bottom of it i doubt it unfortunately i doubt it too you know but it's also like when you think of this isn't the perfect term for it it's a term for other

things but i think i can kind of blanket use it here a little bit like censorship through noise you have so many other things going on you just had the two big ones that everyone knows and can see that went down and then, you know, this 25-story one that can just kind of 30-story one, that could fault, don't worry about it. I mean, that's exactly, that's in essence what happened because we're so concentrated on, you know, the big towers that took place. It was a perfect opportunity, perhaps, for somebody to say, all right, let's somehow trigger whatever it is that took place to building seven yeah and that's where i if this is without me knowing anything it's just like guessing from the outside but if i were just looking at the list of offices

that were there that include like cia and everything i'm like i could totally see how they have something like that like ready like doomsday scenario like exactly take it down exactly you know so um but that gets into the greater conspiracy of like oh yeah yeah it gets it gets like it's It's nasty. What took down the first two towers. Yep. As well. It's stuff.

I just have my friend David Ferruggio here who lost his father in the tower and does a really amazing podcast that sounds morbid, but he does an amazing job, whether it's called Dead Talks, where he talks to people about the afterlife, all the different history of it, how different people deal with it, how they deal with grief, and he makes it funny. It's highly recommended. It's good stuff. But, Joe, you know what time of year it is? What time is it?

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long-lasting freshness. You know, like even talking with him on camera and off camera, you know, is it, it's of course a very sensitive, righteously so, sensitive subject for the victim's families to this day with 9-11. But many of them for years now have been like, all right, guys. you know we can't change what happened but can you please give us some sort of answer so what does david think well he says building seven's insane that doesn't make any sense and that seems to be a real it's hard for me to talk to almost anyone these days who doesn't say yes something's wrong there yeah but then with the buildings i mean there's there's a lot of different possibilities that's the problem and it's like you know they basically shut

this down with the 9-11 commission by 0-3-04 when they finished that you know and there's some missing pages it's more than missing pages like 70 or so you know your stuff yeah i i i don't have deep in here right now but i think i believe from the actual report there was a bunch redacted but what i can remember offhand is that they had in the in the actual report they completely ignored a ton of different pieces of evidence that, you know, could have, like, implicated Saudi Arabia and stuff like that. And I know that was a huge sticking point for a lot of 9-11 families for years where they're, like, they were suing the Saudi Arabian government, which, you know, good for them. Yep. They should do that, you know, but it's like...

And they still can't get that info. No, no. Some things, I guess, are bigger than 3,000 lives, but... Interesting. I... Are we on? Yeah, we are. Um, yeah, we're. Um, yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't know why that is being held. I don't know why there's such a fight to keep the Epstein files. Oh, it's insane. Hidden. It's insane.

It doesn't make any sense to me. No. Even if the president's implicated, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. I completely agree. You have to, and like that's the thing, Trump ran on this too. Yeah. That they're going to be released.

And to me, it's just like, okay the guy knew everyone in new york yeah i do while well it's it's of course righteously so a very sensitive subject to the entire general public because of the nature of the heinousness of these crimes i think people are smart enough to be able to look at things and be like okay that's fucked up that person seems to just have been at a restaurant right and maybe it's not that way for everything but like if you have nothing to hide don't hide it i don't know why this is hard. And by the way, this is something that if you want to get into like your elite's politics games, it implicates everybody. Exactly. So like what, you know, and half these people aren't even

in power anymore. Yep. Some of them. So, and half of them we expect, we, we, we, we know the dirt on them already. That's right. So it makes you think that something deeper is at play. It definitely is. It definitely is, man. I had, my friend Mike Yagley was sitting here a few weeks. ago and he long story short he's like a data hacker so he takes publicly available data that anyone can buy it's expensive but you buy it and then you learn how to like sift through it which is his expertise and he ended up doing a lot of work for the government over a decade ago because he bought data on cell phones in fort bragg and was able to track their special forces guys down to the name doing undercover missions in syria wow and

he went to the government and said, you guys got a problem. I did this from my bedroom. What do you think China can do to see your little mission here at LaFarck Cement in Syria? So he started doing a lot of work for the government. And then when the Epstein thing really went mainstream in 2019, he went back to like 2015, 2016, 2017, mind you, nine years after the guy was convicted. And he was tracking phones down to the bartender to the island. And not one person in the government. took his information on it. Wow. And he's like, that's, that seems a little odd to me.

I'm like, yeah. He had so much money and power. I remember meeting his personal chef in Miami. I was living in Miami for like two years. Adam Perry Lane? No, I forget. It's a couple. Okay.

I forget their names. Or maybe they were part of the cooking team. Okay. And they're like, know what they have seen, and what they know of him, they think he's alive. They say there's no way he is still dead. They think he's alive somewhere. Paid to get out.

It's not out of the realm of possibility. Which makes me look at that one minute of missing videotape in the jail and think, huh, that they just so happened to have rebooted the, camera every night at midnight but no other night had that blackout yeah it's just like then there was a new york post photographer that was across the street ready oh wait what is this i don't know the exact detail but there was a there was a photographer look it up but there was a photographer who had been posted close to the jail to be able to get a shot of the body at some point and he would have had

to have gotten the alert that something was up within minutes to get from his apartment to be able to get there because you're not randomly there on a Saturday morning It was August, too, dead news cycle time. Yeah. I was at MSNBC at the time. We were having our show meeting around 8 o'clock. And they were like, Epstein's dad. We're like, okay, cool, we have a lead.

Who were we booking? Oh, my God. There's a lot of bodies that seem to drop in that case that drop at optimal times, right? So, as we just said, you know the news cycle is better than anyone. A Saturday morning in August. We know the news cycle once Friday night. comes around the Friday night into Saturday morning any time of the year is the deadest part of

the cycle. Yeah. So he dies early wee hour mornings of a Saturday morning in August, the vacation month of the year. Yep. Jean-Luc Brunel suicides himself in a French prison on a Saturday morning of President's Day weekend in America, which is a three-day weekend here, right? You know, and Gilaean Maxwell is found guilty, I think it was like Wednesday, December 29th, Christmas week in between, right? They made the jurors stay in there and not go home to come to a conclusion. So, you know, during the deadest media week of the year, she's found guilty. And then literally New Year's Eve fell on a Friday, I think, that year. New Year's on a Saturday.

The second's on Sunday. You're already January 3rd by Monday. You're done. You know what's talking about it. It's a very convenient news cycle. It's very convenient. Very convenient news cycle. And not related to that.

But McAfee, I think, also died on a day. I think you're right. He unalived himself on a day that, what's where there was a distraction of news? Yeah, I believe you're right. I can't remember the detail. My friend Danny Jones just had in, like, his wife or the woman he was living with at the time. What day did he die? He died in June 2021.

Let's see here. So on June 23rd, 2021. McAfee was found dead in his prison cell hours after the Spanish National Court ordered his extradition to the United States on criminal charges filed by Tennessee and the tax division. The Catalan Justice Department said everything indicates, quote unquote, he killed himself by hanging. An official autopsy confirmed it. His death has led to all kinds of theories and he had said in 2019 on Twitter, if I suicide myself, I didn't. I was whacked. so it was right around that was definitely one of the details it was right around when he was

going to be extradited right so he would have his quote unquote day in court in america which i'm trying to see what else happened that day the 23rd what happened or maybe it was the 24th what happened on june 23rd 2021 all news britney spears is powerful testimony seeking an ender conservatorship the inaugural world test championship oh you know what it was and and this is like conspiracies that that have gone nowhere um the towers fell in miami the next day within hours oh the ones that had the sinkhole or whatever yes yes within hours of mackafee passing away and that was a big story that was a huge that was a national story yeah yeah yeah in the early morning hours so mackifee who gone from the news

when those towers fell surfside, it was around 2 a.m., I think. And you were living in Miami at the time? I wasn't living in Miami. You weren't. A few months, I was living here. I was at MSNBC at the time, and I was a few months away from moving to Miami for two months, for two years. Yeah, that was a wild story. Apparently they're like changing all the laws now with

you know, how they build down there and everything. Yep, I still have a condo down there. Their prices have gone up insanely our hos are insanely high because of that um but understandable that we need to have those things to be sturdy now you you've spent obviously a lot of your adult life in new york doing national reporting local reporting the whole bit you've in the course you're reporting obviously come on a ton of wild stories and then also come into contact with all different people who you need to call power players and things like that you know to the rest of main street when we look in on something like the Epstein thing and it's a guy who just

seem to know everyone does it as someone who's at least seen some of that world like does it surprise you at all that he gets so much I guess cover up of the tracks behind him to this day when he's been dead for the last six years I mean we just saw the the the ditty documentary I haven't seen it yeah it's very good 50 cents is messy She's messy. Yes, Fitty is messy. Do you know he did his first interview about the, about the documentary with ABC because do you know the only network that's allowed in the lockup? ABC? No shit. So that's why he decided to pick ABC. It's just really, really shady. But you realize that there were so much. dirt that was happening all in front of our eyes. And you really, really realize, like, even in the music world

where you think, oh, you know what, these people are just doing fun songs, you know, that we enjoy, that there's such a dirty side to every, every, every industry that it doesn't surprise me all that's happening with the Epstein files and that story. Because people do a lot to bury stories and bury things. I remember at ABC, they would bury stories with the New York Post all the time. They would give them a story and then call in a favor and say, hey, we know you're working on this. We know this particular anchor is having an affair.

Can you not put it in the news? Can you and do this story? See, I care a little less about like people's personal lives with regular bullshit. But when it's happening, and I'm sure based on what you're saying, you're referring to other types of stories to, when it's happening to things where people are protected in power who are legitimately doing bad things or are involved in things that I would even say, you know, qualify in any way as criminal or something like that? Child sex.

Oh, I mean, that's the worst kind. But I'm saying, like, even lighter, like, lighter stuff, it's like, how do you even have a fourth estate if the fourth estate's, like, kind of playing this game where they're like, we're actually the fourth and a half of the state? Well, the fourth estate deals with money, so it's still, you know. we still got to make money somehow. So while we're doing the news and it's as impartial as possible, you know, we're still trying to entertain and still trying to make some money.

For sure. Dief, when you walked out for a second, Kendis was saying that he came into contact with a couple of the chefs who cooked for Epstein and they think he's still alive based on everything they know. How did you come into contact with that? them again? At a condo in Miami, some friends had a fancy condo. And so we're at the pool. We met up with them. And I think there was a swinger vibe to them. And so they invited me and my boyfriend back to their place. They cooked dinner. And then we kept in touch with them. No kidding.

They've gone over to their place a few times. Nothing swinger has happened with us. Yeah, yeah. That's for the best. Yeah. Based on their previous work. orchestrated for sure you know but once the you know did they did they you don't have to say anything that you think would be like private between friends but did they have second thoughts about stuff that they now realized they knew what they were seeing or did they know what they were seeing and they felt pressure to not be able to say anything you know they they assumed what was going on because a lot of the girls were very very young yes that were coming onto the island and um they didn't want to get into the details about who they saw on the island. But back then, this was 2022 when I met

them. There wasn't such an emphasis on who was in the files, even though that was fairly recent. Like we knew about Prince Andrew a little bit. We heard rumors about Bill Clinton, but, you know, there wasn't this built up to where we are right now to try to figure out who was in the files or why it's being kept hidden. So what they said, though, What they learned after the fact was probably all going on behind the scenes in, like, different compartments. It was a fairly decent-sized island. And there was, like, it's a compound. And there are many, many buildings and places.

And so they didn't necessarily see anything nefarious, except that the girls were very young and that there were many. Did they express, you know, it's reminding me. me there was another guy I believe his name was Juan Alessi who was like the manager the house manager for Epstein and he's one of those guys that's like hard you know there's a part of what he later did that I appreciate and I'm also like damn dude like did you know but tarpao Mary went and did an amazing podcast back in 2020 you know her yeah so she did two amazing podcasts one was the Maxwell's was called something like that the other one was called Epstein she goes around with Virginia Roberts Shoufrey

who was alive at the time and she was friends with her and they would go to knock on the doors and they're recording the whole thing like a documentary of all different people that could have witnessed stuff

and so they go a lot of people would turn them away but they go to Juan Alessi's community and he lets them in he says Virginia I remember you oh my God come on in and then to his credit got to give him credit for this

he said absolutely you can record our conversation so you're listening to this man struggle with like the weight of holy shit like i knew what he knew did i i turned a blind eye oh my god now he's sitting here with a with a girl who actually likes him by the way like virginia had good memories of him but you know that kind of fear that people felt to stay quiet fighting back against the like oh my god am i seeing like the worst thing ever here and not saying anything i don't even know what to do with that you know so they had a little bit of or they expressed that they had some guilt um working there they were getting paid a lot of money yeah um like a year's salary within or like a six figure

salary within three months at a time um and so do they think it's blood money i don't know like right now they're personal chefs to other people that they feel are our bad people as well and have and so it that's that's for them to grapple with it you know it's a it's a it's a tough it's a tough tough tough tough thing for them to figure out on their own you know some weird psychology though too because like a lot of people will say things like if i were blank then i would blank right like meaning if i were in this type of situation i know i would do this or whatever and you don't always know that right yeah what would you have done if you were if you were living there i were working there i would very much like to think that i would have left there not work

there and done my best to expose that and if i had done that i look at knowing what we know now perhaps i wouldn't have known this working there totally but maybe i would have been naive to it but i'd probably ended up dead if i did that okay because also they have an insane NDA they also told you about the yeah I don't know if the manager fellow mentioned that but he they had an insane NDA that like even Beyonce co-workers would be jealous of this this NDA it's not that they were just going to bankrupt you but it the sense that I got it was almost a threatening tight tone yeah to the NDA that they had Now, they, I don't know, like, what, can you talk about the NDA?

That's the NDA if you sign the NDA? You know what I mean? Well, you can say there's an NDA, but I think that's, that was the case. So they just told you it was a threat. They didn't say, exactly. They said it was threatening because most NDAs, like even Beyonce's NDAs is not, the word threatening seems weird. Maybe threatening a lawsuit, okay, but beyond that, it was more than financial.

is what they said. Sounds like some governments are involved. That's what sounds like you make. Yep. There you go, folks. That's all you need. A lot of things are connected. It's one of those where, like you said,

we're probably never going to know. But it's just, it's strange to see it when you have so many obvious things out there. And then to this day, like in the era of social media, everyone in the government like the past three governments i guess it's just like no no don't worry about it yeah it's okay you didn't see anything yeah what what files yeah they don't exist they don't the best was when uh when cash betel went to go sit with joe rogan yeah and there's like a

we watched it on a patreon dee remember that there's like a 13 minute segment in there where joe just calmly asked him about epstein and it's like watching a horror in church sweat and Joe just let him fucking sizzle like he didn't go at him he just let him sizzle there on the on the grill and everyone listening to it is like

oh who got to this guy you know yeah what happened to him and the thing is like his eyes weren't as bugged out as before before he became FBI director until after

like he saw some serious shit once he became FBI director because, man, not even people on Coke look like that. I know, I know. It's just, yeah. Yeah, I call it one eye hunting, one eye fishing. For cash only or for anybody?

For cash. Okay. I mean, you ever seen that stare straight? Oh, my God. I don't know where to look, man. I don't even know either, but he's smart. So there's this weird trend happening right now. Gas stations and smoke shops are selling mushroom gummies.

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Link in my description below, promo code JD22. you might be able to say that based on what maybe he's been shown and told about what happens if you know the guy that that it's like i actually feel a little bad for though is the bonjino guy because he was this you know loudfire brand conservative commentator wanted to expose everything and when you watch him go do some of these interviews the vein in his forehead really is like and he and you can just see like the weight of the world is on him And he's like, I want to tell you guys everything, but I can't. And you're like, damn, they even told him he can't say anything.

They got to him. It's like, oof. Like, I actually, he seems, that dude seems like he's going through it. Whereas the other ones, it's like, I don't know, sometimes it just feels a little bit like company men. You know, it's like, all right, now I'm on the end. All right, I know what I'm. Okay, all right. I can't.

I know I said I was going to say something, but I can't do that. Yeah. And maybe it came from that Joe Rogan podcast. Yes, where Cash was like, yeah, there are just, there are parts of it that I just can't talk about. Yeah. Yeah. Kennedy assassination, yeah, you know, there are parts of it that I can't talk about. Yeah, we didn't do that.

Yeah, exactly. So, at least he was at front about that part. Yeah. But even, like, Kennedy was, what, 62 years ago, something like that? Yeah. Good math. You know, all the people involved are pretty much dead, right? Yes.

But the concept of if several people in our government, which I think is pretty clear, were involved in killing a sitting U.S. president, even all these years later, socially speaking, if we were given the stone cold proof of that, the social uprising that would happen would probably destroy everything that they've built in the government because people would be like, we don't care if that was like four generations ago. the letters on your agencies had people involved with killing the president you're gone you know and so it's one of those that I'm like damn I really want to know but with a lot of these conspiracies what a lot of people say is

several people had to have been in on these conspiracies so why is it that there aren't more leaks for many of these things if the government was involved in Kennedy's assassination or a government was involved in Kennedy's assassination, that's a fast network that was involved. If there's, if the moon landing was

faked, or at least my thought, the broadcast of it was faked, there are a lot of people who would have been involved in that, in that lie. I was doing an interview recently with some astronauts from who were going to the moon. And one of them is a friend of mine. And we spent two hours trying to set up a Zoom from Houston to our studio in New York. And then once we did get it, the audio didn't work, the video didn't work. That was two months ago, 2025. But yet we had a live recording from the moon in the 1960s.

Okay. I see what you're saying. We can figure out at the Zoom modern times, but okay. Yeah, it's... Anyway, but with all of these conspiracies, there are a lot of, my point being, there are a lot of people who are involved in hiding these conspiracies. It's a great point you make.

When people think, like, oh, it could only be three or four because they couldn't possibly keep a secret beyond that. That's not true. I think when it gets into like the thousands, that's where it gets really difficult. Yeah. But I could see. it where you have, I'll just throw out a round number to make it easy. I could see it where you

have 100 people legit in on something, like something big. Yeah. And they're able to keep that secret. I could see that. And if the secret is dangerous enough, like the government's involved in Kennedy's assassination, if they're willing to kill them, what are they willing to do to you to keep it a secret and beyond? They'll kill you too. Exactly. Yeah. Family. Yeah. Yeah, we've seen it again and again sometimes right in our face it's crazy man but you know hey people got they're going to have to answer for themselves at some point i control what i can control hopefully i see some up steam files my hopes aren't very high though so it is what it is but back to your story a little bit so you you and i talked on the phone a little bit about this you wrote a book

last year called five trips yeah where you detailed basically five different psychedelic experiences that you did. I believe it was two psilocybin, one MDMA, one ayahuasca, and then one LSD. And this was as a result of some of the, in some cases, lifelong personal struggles you had gone through and then some things that really verge into the surface. So I'd love to talk about that today because ironically, when you and I were on the phone and we were talking about your ayahuasca, I was like, yeah, I actually did ayahuasca too. And you were like, where? And I said, South America. You're like, where in South America? I'm like Peru and you're like, me too. And where'd you do it in Peru? Ah, I'm near the Brazilian border. Oh, me too. Who'd you do it with? I was like, Paul Rosalie. And you're like, me too. Son of a bitch. That was funny as hell.

Is it a while? That was funny as hell. But what, you know, we're psychedelics and we'll get into your story. Like, I'd love for you to expand upon that for people. But, you know, before you even went to do all this as a result of some of the things that went on with you that you'll talk about, were psychedelic something you were always fascinated with and maybe never did or did you dabble? I mean, I'm black. Like, we're not really into that stuff. It was crazy, like, hippie shit for the most part.

And even to this day, as I talk about it and try to convince people to explore it, it might not be for them, but to explore it, like even to my own relatives, like, no, we're like, nah, we good. Even from Belize They're not that far from Peru I don't

Relatively We're big into We're getting more into the plant medicine Now increasingly in In Belize So I didn't know much about it One of my college roommates Used to do LSD

And he would sit there and watch like some crazy movies And I'm like wow, that looks really really fucked up Yeah. That's how I look at Thief. I look at you with hearts in my eyes. So I didn't know much about it. This journey with psychedelics really started in 2020, for the most part, for me. When I went to Belize, I was still suffering from depression.

I would go back into that at some point, but I was still suffering from depression. And I was at MSNBC at the time, and I went to Belize in February. to, I would go down there and speak with journalists and such and, you know, tell them best ways to, or best practices to do journalism. And they'd be like, yeah, fuck you. Ignore me completely. And so one of our, one of our friends, who was a Rosafarian, was like, hey, let's go to the Mayan ruins, you know, okay, I haven't been to these mine ruins. And he mentioned in the country before. I'm like, yeah, sure, I have a couple days. Let's just go out. there and we're talking about my depression and all the things that I was dealing with and some of the root causes stemming from Belize and you know halfway on the way to one of the ruins he's like oh I have something for you and then he had like a bag of mushrooms and and I had some orange juice that I'd brought for for the hike at the ruins and he's like let me put

that in here. I'm like, okay, whatever. I don't know what it was. He's like, this will be good for you. Just go ahead and drink it. So I end up drinking the whole freaking thing because I thought that was for me and it was supposed to be half. And it was maybe like four or like a mega dose almost, especially since I had, yeah, especially since I had not done mushrooms at all. Yeah, you don't look like you weigh like 275 either. So he was like, yo, that was for both of us. And I was never able to throw up. I always had like body dysmorphy issues, but I always considered myself a miserably failing

bulimic because I could never force myself to throw up. And so I couldn't do it. I tried to do it, but couldn't do it then. He ended up taking some as well. And also on top of this, he didn't drive. So we're like, all right, we'll continue. The GPS says we only have a half hour. He's like, it'll take longer than that for it to kick in. The thing is about when you add citrus to to any chemicals, magic mushrooms or such. It's a hard entry into your body, into the system. Because what activates the mushrooms

or the acids in your stomach, so you're beginning that activation already once you put it in the, in citrus, like orange juice. So it speeds up the process. So what was supposed to be a half-hour drive turned also turned into an hour drive because the the GPS didn't calculate that these were dirt roads it just said like okay this is this is a distance you're going exactly and then potholes and so 15

minutes into the drive the trees start leaning in those potholes look like fucking craters on the moon um I was equal part scared but also like in thrall like I could hear hear every, every synthesis in the song. Like I became like superhuman at this point. And he's over there. And with a lot of plant medicine, there are different ways of purging. We can get into the ayahuasca purging. But you'll either like cry, sweat, puke, which is what I do a lot on it. and or need to take a dump. And so... That was mine.

And so my Rasta friend is like, yo, we need to pull over. So for me, I'm sweating. That's how I'm purging with this thing in me because partly I'm scared and I'm like, I'm in our charter territory and these potholes. I'm just trying to get to the end of this freaking road

and not drive us off. And he's like, I need to just go to nature and and and that's how he it purges him anyway after like this insane drive where I'm just kind of like holding on to dear life I finally make it to to to the spot and we get up there the ruin in Belize is I forget the name of the actual ruin but it is the tallest structure in Belize to this day and it's like hundreds and hundreds of years old like it's like a 20-story building you said it's mine yeah yep yeah people find it starts with a C cap cap oh you know what I think I think we pulled this up maybe

yes that's like inland pretty far inland it's very far inland it's near like you can see Guatemala oh you know what I think I think we pulled this up maybe with Luke caverns are Michael Button. That looks very familiar. Yeah. Okay. So I climbed to the top of it. You climb to the top and I'm tripping balls. I'm trying to fire a photo. What did you think you were on stairway to heaven? Yo. This photo. Yeah. Completely. I get up there and I'm like looking out over the land and I feel like I'm so connected to like the ancestors and I'm like I'm fucking Thanos right now. Yeah. You're going up a fake Simba. Yeah. It's on top of this fucking And then they took this photo.

Like, after I got back, I'm looking at it. I am high as far. Yeah, no, you're in the room, but you're not here. Yeah. Wow. That's called a thousand yards. That's a 10,000 yards stare. I am not there at all.

Like, what did I do? Oh, man. So I think nothing of it, really. So we go back. I was like all right I just felt high I didn't see any like weird visuals yes I can you know

see the sounds and hear the sights you know but it just kind of intensified everything like I can I I could see like a little ant crawling and I was like oh okay you have a little conversation with it

but it wasn't things weren't like bending right all over the place yes the trees were coming down on me, but I still feel like they were coming down on me. And those potholes did seem like they were craters, but that was the case. So I came back to New York, and COVID was starting to Rear its head. Oh, shit. It was a month later. And I was working weekends at MSNBC at the time. I worked like two hours a day on air, and they wouldn't use me during the week. And I used to think, man this is the most wasted job of my life like i get they they don't want me on air at all during the

week i tried to do stories they they didn't really want to use me at all um and just have me working on the weekends and when i got back i go into the to work and i was like you know what i'm the highest paid anchor here about hour and you know what i get all week to to be able to just do whatever I want. And I didn't understand why that had changed or why my perspective had changed. But then, you know, we were on lockdown with COVID and me and my partner went for a walk

in April, early April on a Saturday. And I, we came back and as we were walking into our lobby, I was within the airshot of hearing one of our neighbors jumped from the 16th floor into the courtyard. And that was something a couple years prior that I wanted to do to myself, from the building. And I thought it would trigger me. It took back to those days.

And it didn't. It didn't. It did not. And we lived next to a hospital up there, and every day, since I'm, at home i'd hear one day recorded all of them uh for an hour keep hearing the ambulances with people going to the hospital from covid i would also think like that atmosphere would trigger me and it didn't and i was like i i feel like my depression is gone and i didn't understand why at all

um i started talking to some friends who did psychedelics and such and i'm like i don't Could the mushrooms have had an impact on my life to this degree? Like, yeah, of course. Did it make you happier? I'm like, no, it just made me nervous in some ways. But once I came back, I looked at my job as an opportunity. I looked at COVID as a wonderful way for us to connect with our friends and to slow down. I wasn't as depressed about all that was taking place.

And when that neighbor fell to his death, I was like, you know, having severe depression, it was like, I'm happy he's out of his pain. And I didn't take it upon myself to say, wow, I'm really depressed by all of this. My brain had completely been rewired by that one experience sitting there with that, with that dose of magic mushroom. And so I started looking into it. That's, but before we get into that, though, that's a, that's like, wild that it was that much of a whip and a roll for you because i think even for anyone

whether someone's had severe post trauma or not you know hearing someone fall to their death is like it's a horrible sound it's a horrible horrible sound um my partner went to look i didn't go but the neighbors knew exactly what it was in fact the the the our doorman were heading up the elevator at the time because he had just called his girlfriend and I learned this after the fact um he had just called his girlfriend to say that he was he was gonna unalive himself oh and so they were on the way up at the time um and so paramedics got there very very quickly but uh but it didn't it didn't trigger it didn't trigger me oh i don't feel like a trauma me either. I slept okay that night. Did you, did you wonder to yourself, because like,

obviously the takeaway now with time and everything is like, wow, maybe I did really get something rewired and I looked at, I looked at things with a little bit of a different perspective, but did you also wonder yourself if you were like a little almost turned off to the world to not feel something as much like that visceral? So when I was on SSRIs and antidepressants, I would say the answer to that would have been yes, because they just kind of put me in a mood where I couldn't feel any highs, I couldn't feel any lows. But if the baseline post that one magic mushroom trip, if the baseline was just a normal life, it didn't allow me to go low. But it also allowed me to enjoy the highs in life.

Interesting. So it wasn't that I was numb to the situation. It was empathetic, but it didn't make me taking the trauma. So you start looking into this because you're like, I mean, you have a little correlation here. And would you mind, maybe we could take a step back for a second, just so that people are aware of, you know, some of the things you had gone through shortly before all this, you know, you had struggled with some serious trauma from childhood

and then it kind of like, I guess, bubbled up all to the surface at once in, what, maybe 2017, 2018, something like that? 2018, yeah, okay. So what was, and don't go into anything you don't want to go into, but what was the nature of that? So childhood, as I mentioned, there was born in Belize, there was six brothers, and we had like three bedrooms. So I was on the lower bunk, older brother was in the bunk above, and then another brother that would have his own bed. And I remember it distinctly because I had had my first birthday party ever at six years old.

and that night was the first night that my older brother he just crawled down into the lower bunk and pulled down my PJs and abused me and it would continue for I'd say eight to nine more months that it would take place how old was he he was about 13 so he was young as well but he was about 13 more than double your age yeah um and so that continued for a little while but i didn't you know i was six years old

i didn't know what this was like am i supposed to be used to this or or what and the strange thing that took place after is after it stopped and it was because he got a girlfriend, I was jealous. I was, and I'm still six at this point and was strangely like wanted more of it. It, in hindsight, thinking about it, it was just really weird, but I've come to learn that's a natural, that's a natural reaction for. for so many people. You can't even, you can't even process. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Absolutely. So then that abuse stopped and continued along with normal life as a kid in Belize. And there was a kid across the street from us at, it was a neighbor boy, Manny. And I just, you know, thought, he's a cool kid, whatever. We'd have a lot of blackouts in Belize. one night that we had a blackout we're all, you know, go over to our friend's place and hang out and

Benny's mom went to bed and he and I kissed and was like my first real interaction with anybody. Romantic interaction, you might say. How old are you? With anybody? Nine years old. And I had like butterflies, all these

feelings that I don't even know. I don't understand what is going on, but I liked it. um i never saw him again after that night i went back across the street to bed went to school the next day didn't see him um a couple days would go by didn't see him i went to an area that we used to go in hindsight i call it like our little stand-by-me area where you would go down this path this dirt road path near our neighborhood and end up at the river and we just go there and chill all the time. There's a big river that runs through Belize. It's like this emerald green river with forest on both sides. So I would just go there and hang out and like I'd say like maybe three

days after i lost last time i went there to hang out and like a lot of we had rained the night before so there was a lot of debris in the river and i see like this porcelain white arm that looks like a doll like just kind of the arm sticking out over out of the water and like i said i was a bright kid at the time and I was like I don't know of a doll that would have a fist and it still didn't compute what my brain was realizing but I still went back to his mom and I'm like I think he's in the river and you know parents aren't going to take the word of a nine-year-old kid at that time you said it was him yeah I looked at it I realized that there are no doll because he was Latino and from being in the water possibly for several days the collar is basically gone and so it's just the fist of this kid there are this this doll I'm like there are no dolls like that that that I've ever seen it it has to be many and so I told his mom they didn't believe me I went back a

couple days later and it had moved down the river a little bit more it was stuck in some tree branches that had to come down from the storm and i went back and i told him again and finally his mom was like all right let's just go search and and see if that's where he is and uh yeah they found his body they think he drowned somehow but i don't know why you're not you're not nine when you find that so my first little romantic experience disappears after after after that kiss i could laugh about it now but people are like there's i told this to one of uh terence howard's daughter the other day and she was like wow you literally got ghosted oh my god that's dark It's dark as fuck.

Wow. Yeah, I wouldn't have the balls to make that joke. Oh, my God. And then, like, other people would be like, oh, it's a kiss of death. I could laugh about it now, but it was... At the time, it's not... At the time, it was traumatizing. And there was a country where it was in the Constitution at the time

that homosexuality was illegal um where they would abuse and in some cases uh kill people who were gay um i didn't know that i was gay or whatever and by um but i know that it was it was not the norm um but you're again you're still only nine like yeah trying to think of when i was nine and what like even under having a concept of things like that right like what's accepted and not sexually or orientation like you don't maybe today people have more awareness and i i didn't i'm like you know yeah i wasn't aware of much but and i have no idea why maybe i read a lot when i was a kid why i was um was able to calculate and process so many different things at that time but not processed in a positive way but that that

traumatized me for several, several years. Like, I wouldn't make out with anybody and wouldn't date anybody for years. And because I feared that they would end up dead somehow. When... Tell me if this sounds familiar. You're wearing your socks in the winter and somehow your feet are still sweaty

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what happened to you with your brother when you were six? And that, A, that's not normal. and b it it's it's so here's what happened um and i've come to learn that it happens with a lot of people who suffer trauma you end up putting it away somewhere in your brain and while it is still there like your body's still carrying those those that trauma your brain as a way of coping puts these things away. I didn't realize why I wasn't dating anybody or want to have sex or relations with anybody

was because of the trauma that I experienced with Manny when I was a kid. I just knew that I didn't want to date or have sex with anybody because I kind of put it away as I kind of forgot about it for the most part. And then decades, decades later, I ended up meeting this woman in Phoenix and I was telling her this was after my psilocybin trip

I was telling her the experiences I was having with psilocybin and she's like and she was the typical like hippie woman that I imagined was doing plant medicine and she was like I feel the need to sit with you and do some MDMA. That is what a hippie would say. And by this point, you know, I live in the gay community,

or any party community, there's, you know, MDMA is popular. I wasn't a fan of any drugs at all growing up for decades or plant medicine or other chemicals like that. So I had not done MDMA by this point. And I was like, oh, you know, we were drunk and she just felt like connected with me. And I'm like, ah, yeah, sure, fine. And I was like, all right, cool. We'll do, we'll sit with MDMA.

I'm thinking, I'm still thinking it'll be a party thing. And she's like, I'm drawn to you. I feel a calling to have you sit with me. So I flew back to Phoenix the following weekend to sit with her. And she was like, just so you know, it's not like, it's not a, I was there for a birthday party. We met at a birthday party. I flew back to the States. All right.

So you're doing this responsible way. You didn't do it that night when you're hammered. No, no, no, no. You're like, we're going to plan this out. No. You're like, you agreed to it when you're hammered because you're like, okay. Exactly. Gotcha.

Exactly. But in my brain, I agreed to a party. Right. Right. And her husband, you're on the red eye, like, wait, what's? the fuck that exactly so we go back out there i'd fly back out there and she before we meet up at because i invited somebody else to it and she's like well it's not a it's not a fun experience you'll get out of it it what you need but it's not necessarily a fun experience i'm like okay like all right i just felt

a calling and she felt a calling anyway to have this experience so i sat went into her house it was an empty house for the most part. She had all these yoga mats laid out. I mean, hippie. The candles, like the nice music. It was really, really warm. And she's, like, dressed in, like, white and all this. And, like, okay, this is interesting. And I'm just liking my sweats and, like, sitting down in the yoga position up against the wall. And she gives me, I believe the first dose was 100, 100 milligrams of MDMA. Is that a lot, Thief? Standard, yeah.

It was like, yeah, I took that last night. Asking for a friend. 100 milligrams and like, I know it was like pure MDMA. Which, D.F, if you've tasted it, it's like, it's nasty as fuck. I assume you've not. I haven't done MDMA.

Okay. And so, like, I chased it down. And then I just sat there. and she's like, let's talk. I'm like, well, there's nothing really to talk about. You know, this is cool. Like, it's not what I thought would happen. This is great.

She's like, yeah, yeah. And then she started talking about her life and how she and her doctor. Sorry, she started talking about her life and how she and her doctor boyfriend were buying property. north phoenix north Arizona because she believed he had a calling that told her

that she needed to build a landing strip for aliens and she's telling me this as you know the MD is starting to kick in and I'm like the fuck did I get into it like yo

so my brain starts like I'm going to die here like what is going on and then she kept talking and I really just wanted her shut up and because when you're in when you're doing MDMA

therapy or party like you're you're you're either the type that's going to talk a lot or the type that's just like let me just buy yeah exactly she was to talk a lot because she did it as well

and then she comes back over gives me another like 65, 80 milligrams. Top me off. Yeah, top me off about an hour later to really get to my brain. Don't try this at home. And she... Educational purposes on this.

And she keeps talking and she's like, yeah, I believe in manifesting things. And, you know, I lost a molar in my teeth. And I'm telling myself that I will grow it back. And I know they'll come back. like wow you are all fucked up and I just was like I'm just going to lay down and lay down and I laid down with my eyes closed as much as I could and I felt the energy of manny the guy that the kid that died when I was a kid and the energy of my brother and the the abuse and I felt like they came into the room and I had for the most part forgotten about it and they came into the room

and I started my purge for this was I just started crying I just started bawling and she and Katia the woman was like what's going on what's going on brain I'm like nothing nothing nothing I'm fine I'm fine I just started crying and what I realized from that experience with both of them there I was like I had this immense force of forgiveness where I didn't need to forgive many but I needed to forgive myself for feeling the way that I did about that experience and I needed to forgive my brother because I'd been living with that trauma and that trauma had been. stopping me from being open to many, many experiences. And it was adding to my overlying depression.

And it was just like one of those aha moments of like, ah, that's what I needed to get to address this and to move on with my life. And I was just like I told her as I was coming down from the NBMA, I'm like, I just had this immense sense of. forgiveness where everybody who's wronged me I never told my brother that I told my other brothers about the experience and this is one of those things where it kind of almost goes back to like the Epstein regrets and such if if you were on Epstein Island would you say something we learned that he abused his kids he went on and abused his kids he went on

and abused his wife's sister, younger sister. One of my nieces called me in recent years, or after the book came out, and she said, I didn't name him in the book. She said, you didn't have to name him. I know exactly who it was. And he abused me till I was 14. Oh, my God.

And she still lives with that trauma. to this day. So there's part of it where there's that guilt that if I had said something earlier, maybe it would have helped so many of the kids, but there's a huge difference here, though, Candace, there's a huge difference. You were a young child victim.

Yep. There's a big difference between that and being an observer. And I hope you realize that. You're right. because I'm sure with you now getting a chance to talk to other people that he abused, it sounds like within your family and everything as well, they're sitting in a similar boat. You know, it's a, first of all, you don't even know how to process it at that age.

I don't think you ever know how to process it, to be honest. But, you know, you especially don't understand at that age. And then secondly, you know, it makes you, it's almost like it's been described like, it's like a vampire kind of effect. You know what I mean? It makes you feel like when you, when I've talked to different people who have been, you know, abused, especially at a young age, it's almost like you don't realize it. But whatever innocence is is stripped from you completely against your will. Yep.

And then you can't even process that it was what was stripped from you. Yeah, because I never, I never really had a childhood, I feel. Exactly. And I feel as if maybe that's what gave me this adult type of a mindset from the very, very early age. Because I was never a normal child. You know, I'm skipping grades, so I'm not with my people of my age. Changing countries. Changing countries.

I did some wild shit to acclimate to American life. well my english teacher um in junior high school in brooklyn because i had a really thick caribbean accent and you did very thick how'd you get rid of that well she said the carpenters the group from southern california have the purest american an accent that there is. And she's like, I'd listen to the carpenters and try to practice their try to practice their dialect. And I would study it.

It worked. Yeah. And the thing about the carpenters, I would listen to their music for years. And the thing about their carpenter's music is it's fucking depressing. So over the years, I realized that it was the soundtrack of my sadness. And I didn't realize that it was getting worse and worse and worse. So I would listen to, you know. Yeah, there's, why does it get?

They are. I'd listen to we've only just begun when I'm just like, you know, hanging out there and at home alone. And then over the years, I'd realize at my darkest moment, when I'm drinking a bottle of wine by myself and crying and bawling. I was listening to the carpenters and goodbye to love. There are no tomorrow's in this heart of mine. Rainy days and Mondays always get me down. Even their happiest song is depressing.

I'm on top of the world looking down on creation. That means you're dead. So, like, that, it took me years to realize what the carpenters were doing to me. You're a psychiatrist dream. You are like, if they could write a textbook and just say, we need one case study. Got it. One case study for everything. We're good.

Yeah, exactly. We got it all covered. Wow. God damn. The carpenter's. Did you ever, you know, because you're coming of age during all this time too, and you haven't at this point been made aware that like your brother was doing this to a lot of people as well.

But when you're in New York, is he still living with you guys? yeah at that point okay did at any point you know during your teenage years and whatever as you start to get older did you like process that that was what it was and you didn't want to be around him i i never processed it until i sat with mdMA that was the first time that was the first summer processed no i knew that we didn't get along but i didn't understand why we didn't get along. Wow. Like he's the only brother I didn't get along with. Like I wouldn't talk to him, you know, when we get together at Thanksgiving, occasionally, I would not hang out with him at all. It's the only brother that I was a strange run.

But I didn't know why until I relived the abuse and was able to say, okay, you know what, go on with yourself, go on with your life. I forgive you. Now, since you found out about all the other people, he's hurt, though, do you still forgive him? I still forgive him. You still forgive him. But it's up to them to process that on their own. And forgive him.

My mom learned about it only just before my book came out. Oh, my God. And so she had a conversation with him. And it was like, I just hope you pray on it. And I hope you're better for it than you were. That's it. She was like, it's still my son, but I didn't realize he was a monster that was living in our house. And she's like, it's a good thing your dad is not alive because he would have killed him that he didn't know.

Yeah, that's an impossible scenario to process because it involves both of her kids, you know, and then other extended family members. But like you said, it's still her son too. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Have you talked to him since the book came out? No, not all. Will you ever talk to him again? No.

I don't blame you. Yeah. No plans. My life is fine. Wow. He doesn't live in the New York area. That's helpful. Yeah.

Jesus. So you don't, that's, that's, I didn't realize that when you were telling that that was the first time. So what is this? 2020, 2020, 2021? 2021 might have been two yeah so you're a full-blown adult and that's the first time you really process it and you're also able to be somehow like a big enough magnanimous person to take that processing and forgive him which good on you yeah that's insane that's wow you know there was um years later there was a documentary that came out with Tina Turner, and I didn't understand why I, why the forgiveness kind of helped, but there was a

quote from her that, that made me stand out, that stood out for me. There was a quote on Tina Turner that stood out for me where she says, forgiving, forgiving means not to hold on. You just have to let it go because it only hurts you, not forgiving, you suffer because you think about it over and over and over again. And she said she learned that in and that helped her to forgive Ike and then she was able to live her life again. And it just kind of hit me because I was like, huh, I think that's what I got out of it. Even though it wasn't conscious mind that I was thinking about the abuse, I was still kind of suffering from it over the years. Tina Turner is 100% right. Mm-hmm. 100%.

But taking what Tina Turner said and putting that into practice as a whole different hurdle. It is. It is. And it requires a lot of work. And it's a conscious, like with everything, psychologically, it's constant work. I'm constantly aware of my level of depression. And if there are things that might be setting me down. a path to be depressed again because I think once you suffer from it you you're always living with

it it's just a matter of how you handle it if you would never really process those things until 2021 2021 when you do MDMA and again that's even after you took that crazy trip down and believes that you showed us earlier what what do you think it was that really brought on you having suicidal... All right, buddy, we got it. Jesus fucking Christ. Serious in here. People outside honking on the horn.

What do you think it is that brought on, you know, the sudden, like, suicidal ideations in 2018 that you had? What was that? It had been a buildup of years... Yeah, you're good. It had been a buildup of years of suicide ideations. ideation. In college, I wanted to jump off a cliff. I felt depressed, but I didn't know why I was depressed. I had a career that was starting to be really, really good. In the early 2000s, I was at CNN on the 30th floor penthouse. And I had a great job. I had a nice life, an amazing apartment,

and I wanted to jump off that balcony also. I was just depressed. A lot of it are these underlying causes of what happened at childhood. A lot of it was not realizing who I am and recognizing that, you know, you're good, you know, you don't need to be, have an Anglo nose, you, you, you're a good-looking person, you don't need to have body dysmorphia issues, um, you're in shape. And it just kept going, going, going, going, going. Then in 2014, I joined ABC News and Coquilly became their overnight anchor for their national show, World News Now. And the thing about that show, like you're, you're going into the office at 10 p.m.

You're leaving around five o'clock. Graveyard shift. Graveyard shift. And there are three hours during that period where you're on. Like, your Mr. Personality was a fun, quirky show. Like, it was a newscast, but if you didn't know any better, you would think that we were drunk on air. And there were sometimes, there were some times when we were drunk on air. But it was a quirky, fun show.

We dance and all that. So you're really performing for three hours a day in the middle of the night. And I did that longer than anybody else has done or did to that point and since for about four years. Wow. But as the years went on, I was, I was drinking to get to sleep. I was taking Ambien every day, I would then caffeine to go high up when I was for the overnight hours. And my body was just on this vicious cycle of alcohol, sleeping pills, pills to wake up, caffeine to wake up, and just on and on and on and on. And that just kept increasing my level of depression.

About a year before October 2018, I told the bosses at ABC that I needed to come off the shift because it was literally killing me. We sent them a letter, sent them an email, my agent, and they were like, oh, no, we don't have anything for him. Like, okay. Other people who... The show goes on! Exactly.

Other people who wanted to come off the shift came off the shift pretty quickly. It didn't happen. September 2018, you know, we're doing the show and I'm really, really starting to get depressed and thinking about, I would cry myself to sleep at 6 o'clock in the morning and started thinking about suicide at that point. And a funny thing actually happened. I made fun of BTS. You remember the Korean pop group? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the K-pop group. Because they were at the UN and they were speaking and I'm like, why? Yeah, I never really got it. But why is BTS at the UN speaking? Their fucking army came after me. And like, they said that publicly.

Yeah. Oh, yeah, on TV. You're like, how fuck are these guys? Yeah. And you just get the anime fucking, you know. They're like, you should kill yourself. You should do all this stuff. They call me the N-word.

and like all the stuff. Oh, the Koreans were throwing out. Wow. They go hard in the paint these days. VTS Army. Even though they knew that word. Google Transite. How's the accent on that one?

That's what I need to know. Exactly. What is that sound? I feel like Quentin Tarantino somewhere like, we'll find out. But it was just kind of funny at the time because I was at the level where I'm like, yeah, I'm thinking about it at that time. Um, so then a couple weeks later, I, um, I just knew that it was time. Like I, I came home, um, called or I texted a friend in Atlanta and I said, everything is sad. Like, I've created will, you know, I've done this, I've done this, done all this different stuff. Um, and it's all set. I made sure the toilet was flush. I made sure the apartment was clean. Um, and I, um, and I, I, went to the ledge of our 12th story apartment looking out over the city and was like oh this is what

I've always wanted to achieve to be here with this skyline view and live here in New York and in essence the top of my farm I'm a network television anchor um like my my my my mission here is done there's not much more for me um and I had taken a couple ambient prior and drank a bottle wine and I sat there on the ledge getting ready to jump I was looking at the bus there's a bus stop right below my apartment and I'm like it's like a honing pigeon it's like it's a target for me and I fell back I passed out from the ambient and the alcohol I hit my head Are your legs like

Are you sitting with your legs dangling Yeah So you just Had it like this And I literally just passed out Oh my God It hit my head And then woke up to

Mike Woods Who's a Local New York Longtime Weatherman Going like Hey buddy are you okay I'm like no I'm not Clearly

Exactly yeah exactly what happened at the time um my friend robin in atlanta texted my partner or called him said something's wrong who then like texted every or called everybody who could get to the apartment quickly um and so mike came over um my co-ancher came over my producer came over and and and then they just all got together in the room while i slept off everything thing, and they're like, yeah, you're going to need some help. Yeah, I'd say so. And at this point, we're renegotiating with ABC, but they wanted again for me to stay for

another year on the overnights, and my agent's like, no, we're not doing that. I mean, did he tell him that you were going through it at that point? No, they just basically said, like, for his health, like, we can't do this. Okay. You guys need to find a spot for me. And I discovered it during a psychedelic trip in upstate New York. I went to this couple's house that they curate these mushroom journeys. They welcome you into their house.

And they talk with you a little bit beforehand about your experiences with it and what you want to get out of it. And, you know, with a lot of these journeys, you do your intentions, but I don't know why we do intentions, because we don't necessarily get out of it what we think we want. I've come to realize it is the most unique medicine that there is out there. You and I can take an Ambien, we could be twins, and we'll have the same effect. We'll pass out. You know, a painkiller will do the same effect. We'll get rid of the pain for both of us. When you take like a dose of plant medicine, even if it's the same dose, at same time, same body weight, blah, blah, blah, what you get out of it is exactly what is unique to you, is what your mind and body feels that you need out of it.

So I had my intention for that second Isilocybin trip as gratitude. And we started on my eyes are closed and I'm starting on this journey. and you know it's seeing a whole little psychedelic thing like the different images in my brain rainbow colors and all this sort of stuff and i'm thinking this will be a positive experience i'm going to see gratitude and all this experience soon and i'm laying there eyes are closed and they're doing the couple are doing different things blowing different type of tobacco in the air and playing different music and doing different sounds that are trippy, and they're kind of pulling out all the visuals out of your brain and such. Defieda. I actually know, too, from the ayahuasca, similar vibes going on. Yeah. And so I start feeling, like, this hand keeps just, like, banging up. I'm laying down, and this hand just keeps banging up against, like, the window or the wall. And I'm like,

ouch, like that. start hearing a little john a little bit well so like and i feel the energy though of like my aunt who had just died two months prior that i did the eulogy for my mom's friend that died early in the year i feel my dad and my grandmother who both passed away as well they're just like their energies there and i don't see them but i just and that's what this like this banging and I just keep just tossing and turning I'm like rubbing the top of my foot with my heel

and I'm just tossing and turning and I'm like okay what was it what is it what is it what is it and then it I have like this little out-of-body experience where I see myself as like this Greek goddess and I see all my curves and I see my nose the way it is and and and I have have this appreciation for the beauty that is blackness and and and the history that that lives in me and that I've ran away from for so long and it just it just made me emerge from that with that experience but I'll tell you it was the most physically abusive trip that I've ever ever physically abuse yes I was tossing I was banging my my my the top my foot was rubbed raw by my heel so it was bloody it wasn't pleasant no it was not at all and so i was

speaking with the woman um afterwards and she was like yeah you went through it like we can see that you went through it like it and it was for several hours um and i was speaking with a a psychiatrist the next day that I was working with for the book. And she was like, yeah, you suffered racial trauma at the network level and throughout your life. And you needed to get that out of you. And there was still work that you needed to do with yourself. So when the article had come out and, yes, you were feeling better still from that one session with the mushrooms, you still had stuff that you need to work out.

But it was all in due time. Like, it's just, I felt a calling to go back to that house upstate New York and do a mushroom journey. But if I had done it prior, it wasn't time. It wasn't time at all. My journey, I feel. So did you, like, because the book comes later after you've done these five trips and whatever. So what I'm getting from our conversation throughout today where you're describing when these different things happen, obviously the first one was shotgun completely unplanned. But it wasn't like once you did that, you're like, all right, I'm going to do this one, I'm going to do this one, I'm going to do this one, I'm going to do it.

It was more like it happened naturally to where you got it yourself in a situation. You laid out the MDMA one and then you decide to do this one as well. And then at that point was it clicking that you're like, okay, maybe for example, I'd like to go do ayahuasca. or what happened? So I have come to believe and convinced that we get a calling for these things. I don't know your journey particularly for ayahuasca, but... There was none. I was like, one in Rome.

Really? Yeah. Huh. Okay. No, I feel like there's a calling for it. So my journey in particular with ayahuasca started years earlier when my... producer for the overnight show at ABC was like, yo, I want to do ayahuasca. I want to experience my death.

I'm like, what the fuck is ayahuasca? He's like total stoner at the time. But it kept coming into the conversation of my life as I started down this journey with different mushrooms. I didn't say like, okay, you know what, I'm going to, I'm going to go and do a another mushroom journey. I just felt, okay, you know what? If I feel a calling, I'm going to microdose a little bit.

But all of these were just me kind of trusting the universe. And that's where, like, the MDMA trip came up. They're like, the universe is telling me something that I need to do this. And years later, I was interviewing Paul. Rosalie. Rosalie. I saw him on CBS morning earlier, and I was like, and I was anchoring at MSNBC in the afternoon. He was talking about environmental fires that were taking place in Amazon.

So we had him on a couple other times, and we became kind of friends. And then during COVID, he came back to upstate New York where he was living at the time where his family is. and I was upstate as well just on a weekend trip and he's like, oh, let's go for a hike. I'm like, all right, cool, I'm going for a hike. But the thing about Paul, like, Paul is like a man of the jungle. Yeah. He's jumping from a cliff into the water and like, and he's like, are you going to do this?

He's a different kind of hike. He says, let's go for a hike. That's not what you think it is. No, it's intense. And he was like, oh, man, I hope. we find some snakes. I'm like, I hope we don't. Did he have the machete with him? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. On brand. Yeah. Like he doesn't do the, there's no trails. Yeah, no. No. No, no trails, maybe, but yeah, probably. But so anyway, he starts talking about ayahuasca and because I had already done

mushrooms and he's like, oh, well, you might someday want to do ayahuasca. Do you tell you about the big beetle? No. Oh, he didn't tell you about that. No. When he got, when he got OD'd with ayahuasca and he was talking to a fucking 40-foot beetle. And he's like, please, no, don't eat me. And the beetle's like, I'm not going to eat you. Yeah, now it's fucked up. Wow. Yeah.

But go ahead. What do you tell you? So we're just, he's like, oh, it's going to be amazing, you know, it's great. But I'll tell you, it's nothing like mushrooms. It's not a happy, necessarily a happy experience. But it's, and I'm like, are you doing it again? And it's like, no, I don't need to do that. I'm like, huh, so it's not a recreational thing.

No, no, not at all. So that, again, continued the conversation that would bring back ayahuasca into my brain, I thought. So then in 2022, I go to Miami for what at the time was my 13th TV news job. I just kept doing jobs after jobs after jobs. And the first week that I was there, I was like, why did I do this? I don't really want to be here. And I just kept realize I'm running from something. You know, even though I had like a fairly good control of my depression, I felt like,

I was still like running from something or I don't know what exactly that has me just like falling in love with these jobs and then leaving and then moving on. I don't, I don't understand what it is. I hated the job. Quit after like. Whether it's with your besties or date night. to all the hottest concerts with GoTransit. Go connects to all the biggest entertainment venues and makes it affordable with special e-ticket fares.

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For more details. Terms apply. Six months. after having like an argument with one of my producers because at MSNBC and ABC we would have parties and we'd bring in booze and all that kind of stuff. I decided we were having a producer who was pretty good and it was her goodbye

and I decided to bring some champagne into the office and our producer was like, no, no, no, no, no, like, can't do that. We don't do that. We don't do that tear in Miami. Get your Andre out of here. It was Andre. come on come on i didn't say i was splurging i knew they're paying you better than andre level we were we were doing mimosis so like what's the point so we get into an argument i'm like fuck this place this place needs an enema and they're like maybe you should take a little break

and so i go home that weekend i do some microdose of some mushrooms and i wake up and i was like like, I think I want to do ayahuasca, just like that. Just like that. I call one of my best friends in California, who's, like, down for anything. And it was like, hey, Prince, are you down to go do ayahuasca? He's like, yes, you'll say it less. So I called Paul, Rosalie. I was like, hey, Paul, can you arrange for us to do an ayahuasca trip? He's like, when? I'm like in two weeks. And he's like, nah, that's impossible. For whatever reason, I needed for it to be soon. I decided I wasn't going to go back to that job,

and I needed this trip to happen soon. Somehow, he was able to make it happen. And two weeks later, my buddy Prince and I are jumping out on a plane in August 2022 and heading down to Peru in the middle of the jungle to try to do ayahuascus. You get PTSD with the, with the drive out to the river there where you're going through the bumps like your old

mushroom trip so as you leave you leave this town which is in like southern peru i believe is what it was i forget the name of it starts with an m yes you stay at that hotel day stayed at the hotel right there where there's a giant snake that crawls yeah around in the rafters that's right um a boa constrictor and uh and then you take this long drive dirt roads and you uh-huh yep it it was rough yeah i wasn't ready for that no and then you finally arrived at the the mouth of a river and this tiny tiny little town can you call it a town i mean it's it's more of a shantyville yeah if you will people live there yeah great people yeah amazing people

i was like where you take a piss they point to the tree you got it and it's like some old lady it's like backyard i'm like hello yeah all right and then you take this boat ride yeah for hours for me it was hours i think you went to a different location because the oh you went to the second i know where you went the loggers burnt down the location that i went to yeah um so several hours during on on the river and my shaman i don't know if you had mario i had mario i had mario and mario Mario sat up front and he was just guiding

because the river was fairly low at the time when we went there and he was just guiding us along and he's JJ's oldest brother oh really huh I didn't know that I didn't know that I didn't not know that and who was our cook I think we had Marta did you have Martha

you know the cooks were Gras yes I would just like do that I can't say we were on a first name basis but So we get there There's me and Mario Old Mars Oh yes That's him

That was like hours after right there Really? Uh huh That is awesome Wow your hair's grown Yeah I had just before I went down there I fucking cut it all off Literally very short

Um, so I, we finally get to this location and it's up a hill and there's a sky that comes he is like a humpback and he's like the innkeeper. He lives out there for like, I mean, like 28 days a month all by himself for the most part. Not Pico. Pico, Pico isn't missing a leg. No. No, not Pico. Shout out Pico, the guy. Shout out of pico. He didn't know a word I was saying. I didn't know word. He was saying, but we understand. They didn't know either. Yeah, RIP that leg. So we crawl up, we go into our own little, own little cabins, and, and later that night was going to be, no, the next day was going to be our ceremony. So we checked in, had a nice little dinner, we're on the river, we explore the area, which isn't very tall, very big.

there's a there's a tree house that paul had built yeah yeah original one yeah um which is a baby version of the one that's right now um that one's high you've been on that one that one no oh it's up there it's the tallest treehouse in the world is higher up than anything else i'm not a heights guy but i did go up there several times but one of paul's straight stories he's like yeah on this tree house right here i was fucking this girl one night yeah yeah yeah yeah there's something so hot about that like like can he just like he just killed this animal that invaded his face while he was fucking and blood goes all over the place he's like and he continued and he continued yeah no paul's a savage yeah he's listen there are a lot of people

who go on podcasts you know in various ways and you're like are they really about that life yeah paul rosalie's about that life he's about that like he's one of those guys that has to be more about that life than he should be about that life strictly to be about the life yes yeah jane goodall was impressed by paul yeah didn't she uh she's not wanted to yes she wanted to fuck him so you've heard that story too yeah all right p jane she was yeah that is a true story to which like paul like how much do you want that endorsement in your book this is he's taking some strays i'm sure we've done a lot worse For less.

Resting in peace. RIP, RIP, Jain. RIP, Jain. So the next day, we're just chilling and you know, they, I didn't do a lot of research into what it was. I wanted to go into it blind,

into ayahuasca blind. And so the only thing they had said, like my friend Prince had been like fasting for days. He was from California. So he thought, all these things, fasting for days. He abstained from sex and jerking off.

I did none of those. And so he wasn't drinking. Oh, you didn't fast at all? I didn't fast at all. Well, no, I fasted that day. Oh, yeah, yeah. Mario told us fast from noon on. Right.

But my friend Prince had been fasting for two days. Because he heard from his friends, that's what you have to do. and he heard you have to abstain from sex. I'm like, I hooked up in Porto Maldonado. That's it, Porto Maldonado. That's the name of it. Gotcha.

There it is. They got some fucking mean fried rice in Puerto Maldonado, by the way. Good stuff. All right. Good to know. So, so. The day of the ceremony, we started fasting around noon. Could only drink water.

And Prince decided that he was going to go out into this particular lake with all, everybody. And they wanted to go piranha fishing because of piranhas in that particular lake. They get back after dark. We're freaking out. I'm there with the humpback innkeeper and Marta or a cook who doesn't speak any bit of English. And I'm thinking, I've seen this movie. Like, the black guy's going to die here in the middle of nowhere. Like, I am so screwed.

The black guy does die in the movie first pretty much every time. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah, I know. Seriously. And Prince is brown, so he was not going to be. So they finally come back out of dark, and I'm nervous and not knowing what to expect. And Prince is like,

meditating and i'm like on my phone because there was only one hour where you get access to the internet at night um at this little location and i'm on my phone like communicating with people and such and i send a photo of the setup and it's just me and my friend prince and there are two buckets and again i did not do any research so i didn't know what the buckets are for so you did yeah that's i'm saying you said it a few minutes ago you did kind of do it blind it's not yeah i mean i did it like like ray charles i don't even know shit about any of it yeah you know so i send the photo to a friend and he's like is that the puke or poop bucket and i'm like what do you what do you what do you mean both i go what do you mean um he's like yeah you're supposed to shit your pants like or a puke

like get the fuck out of here i'm like i'm i'm such a germapope i'm not shitting my pants and not shitting in here um you're not really supposed to shake pants that's that means you're yeah yeah well it's supposed to happen after where you go you need to go yeah you know well as a good like gay by person um i had enemas so i ran i ran to my hut you know made sure gotcha i was clean gotcha um And we came back. And then Mario gives us, comes over, gives us the thing. I didn't meditate or anything like this or doing breathing exercises. Like, I'm, you know, Stevie.

Going in. And Mario starts doing all the different chants, the ICRAs, it's called. And my eyes are wide open. I'm thinking that whatever I'm seeing, I will see. come in from the jungle around me. I didn't realize that I have to close my eyes and experience it. And so my eyes are wide open. I'm like, oh, this is boring.

And, you know, Mario keeps going. About 45 minutes later, he gives us the tea, the drink as it is. It's the only thing that I've experienced that tasted the same going down as it does. down as it does coming back up i've never tasted to tank before until that you have like a lot of left hooks and i just feel like whoever like you're mike tyson and i'm waking up later like oh my god didn't see that one you got hang out in williamsburg more listen you're not used to it yeah But it was nasty. You didn't like the taste.

I didn't like the taste. It's very acidic. You liked the taste. I did. I thought it was going to suck. Because I didn't know anything about this stuff. But I was like, that's not the worst thing. However, here's the thing.

The way I explain it to people is it's like anything else in life. Like, Coca-Cola tastes pretty good to me, right? If you give me a full liter of Coca-Cola, though. Yeah. And I drink, like, that whole fucking thing, I'm going to hate it by the end. and want to throw up. Yeah. This is way too much.

And it's kind of the same thing eventually with ayahuasca as you go round, by round, by round, because you're taking a hero's dose each time. You did it with Mario. And it's like, you know, by the sixth, seventh round, you're like, I don't like the taste as much now. I just, it's not, I shouldn't say that, like, I loved it. I think I was just expecting it to be abhorrent.

And then when it wasn't, like horrible, I was like, oh, all right. That's fine. It's almost like a, when. you're when someone tells you about some mixed drink with some fucked up crazy alcohol on it they've never heard of in your life and you're like this is probably gonna suck and then you drink it you're like oh right that bad yeah that's kind of how i described so so you conditioned your mind you trained your mind i think so yeah i didn't know what it would taste like and i i was like

this is freaking disgusting um and so he gives us like three doses and at once four to five minutes apart right right exactly um and my eyes are are so wide open. And I get up and feel the urge to just puke. In the meantime, like Prince is going back and forth to the bathroom. And the thing about ayahuasca, like many psychedelics, your enhanced vision and also enhance sound. So I can hear everything dropping in that toilet next door. So every time he'd go there. So he'd come back and then sit down. That was his main way of purging. I puke twice. And then finally close my eyes. and just saw some visuals, like a regular psychedelic trip,

nothing like too, too crazy. And then I was like, after like a few hours, I was like, I think, I think we're done here. Like, I think I got out of it. Oh, you ended it. Yeah, it was like, I think I got out of it, whatever I'm gonna get. I wasn't done. And I tell, like, Mario and the other guy's like,

I'm just gonna go to bed until, you guys are ready for us to eat because you eat afterwards um my friend prince in the meantime before i left it's like laying down there and he's just like deep breathing and he's like grabbing into something in the air and he's just like it's going through it like heavy heavy heavy heavy breathing um and then wakes up and i was like whoa i've met my soul and i was like wow really okay that's great he's like man it was amazing it was like he was like the most positive experience i've ever had he's a huge laker fan he was like Kobe Bryant was there There are unicorns and plenty of hookers.

They're like, wow, you've had a rock star experience. Will we talk about it? No, he kept talking about it. It just kept going on and on and on. And he's like, what happened for you? I'm like, nothing. Nothing at all. Nothing at all.

And there was one point his sister and his mom visited him. They were both alive. And he's like, do you see, Margaret spoke about. with him in Spanish, he spoke some Spanish, and he's like, do you see your sister? Mario saw his sister and his mom there. And he was like, yeah, I see them. And so we go to bed, I go to bed kind of disappointed

because I didn't experience what he experienced, but I did not plan to do that shit again the next day because it put my body through a lot. The next day, that would be nuts. Yeah. And we wake up, we wake up, we're sitting with Mario the next day and Prince wanted to know what he saw, what he experienced in the room at the time with us. And he's like, yes, I did see your sister and your mom there. And he's like, you know, it looks at me. He's like, there's just a dark matter that sits on top of me and would not leave me. And that's why I didn't experience the full aspect of it. And he said, but I also saw a very old man and a young man at your foot. and you did not see them.

And I took that to be my dad and my nephew who had just been murdered. Just been murdered. It's just been murdered in a club here in New York a few months prior. And in our weird rationalizing brain, we thought, okay, because they're not among us is why I did not see them. But they were there as I was, I guess, supposed to experience my own death, I guess, or my own ego death or sort. But Mario, who really is, like, the G, could see it and feel those forces. He's unreal, man.

He really is. It's one of the last real ones there is. There are many experiences that he's seen where he's seen spirits just entering those rooms and just kind of sitting there while. people are going through these experiences it was amazing to me that first time ever meeting somebody and realizing that there are people who can see these energy or all the souls you can see something i'm i agree with you there was the the day after mine because like i said he's his brother's jj so i was leaving the next day i'd been down there for two weeks and i'm taking the boat back with

Mario and JJ and JJ's translating and Mario's going through we hadn't really fully talked about what had happened the night before so now we we had sat in the on the deck and talked a little bit like that morning but nothing in crazy detail more just about the broad parts of the experience but then Mario I had such clarity afterwards but Mario knew round by rounds. We did seven rounds. Wow. And I mean, I don't, I can't speak to what, again, I didn't know anything about this stuff, but like Lex Free Moom was there a week and a half before. He did nine rounds, right? So I don't know if there, I guess it's just like what the experience is for people or whatever. At least I heard that he and Paul did nine. But, you know, I had such clarity

at that point. I was like, wow. And that's a separate story. But he knew round by round where my head was at not to say he knew every single thing I experienced or stuff like that but like it's very hard for me to explain into words but you're literally getting it translated from JJ who's just a third party here who wasn't there with us that night and he's saying stuff and at first I'm like all right am I just trying to like match this up you know to make it fit like the puzzle yeah and then it's like three things four things five things six and I'm like holy fucking shit who what is this sorcery get off this boat you know he's just like laughing at me he don't know what word i'm saying but i was like i mean i i feel it sounds wild to people out there and i fully understand why that might sound wild

to you but i had the same takeaway from him he's a little different he's very and the first indication for me was when he was able to guide the boat and knows exactly like where to turn and because the water was pretty low and like he can see things that we can't at all um And I had binoculars. But he made me believe in that there are people who have such magical and spiritual powers. So did you feel it like, because you were saying Prince was getting this wild experience and explaining it that night. And you're going to bed and you're like, ah, I feel like I got nothing. But then it felt different like when you woke up the next day where you're like, wait a minute.

Because he tells you about the young man and the older man. And you're like, ooh, is that my father and my nephew? But I wasn't trying to help it together. I wasn't trying to meet them. No, he told us about it. But the next day, I was equal parts disappointed and exhausted from the experience. And, you know, Prince was still on this high. So he wants to know everything like, Mario, what did you see?

What did we experience? You know, and I wasn't fascinated at all. And I told myself, I was not going to do it again. And Prince was like, come on. come on come on come on we have to do it again we have to do it again yeah the next day he's like come on let's do it you didn't so we did oh my god you did two days in a row we did two days in a row yeah yeah that's wild but like with mario all right so round two round two i decide to do some to take it a little bit more seriously do some breathing exercises

beforehand calm myself a little bit get off the phone and because I'm like I came all the way out here in the jungle like I spent thousands of dollars to be here um I'm getting my experience god damn exactly like you know I'm getting this out of it so I finally got myself into it prince is like it's okay buddy it's okay I promise you 1,000% positive don't worry about it and I'm like yes I'm going to get my harem of hookers and Kobe Bryant is going to visit me and we're going to ride off on a unicorn.

So lay down you know create a little shot glass that he put in in a cola bottle. Did he have like the

Yeah, he had the cola bottles right there and when you dump it out and go Toma, Toma, Toma. So I'd be like, I have, pal. Like, I learned that from an Enrique Iglesias song. Toma? Toma.

Oh, kind of cool. Yeah, there's a lot of Toma in Spanish language. Oh, bad? Uh, songs. Anyway, so drink it. I cradle it, pretend it's something deeper and ask it for what Mario told us to ask for it to take us to another universe, I think, is what he said. Right out of a plastic Coke bottle.

Yeah, exactly. With a label that says. I'll admit my cynicism was setting in. When I first saw that, and then, like, 10 minutes later, I was like, oh, no, this guy knows what he's doing. I think it says, like, Inca Cola or something like that. I was like, are we on Canal Street and fucking Peru? Exactly.

Where is it? I knew, I knew it wasn't because it was. Yeah, it is. Inca Cola. Yeah, there it is. I had the actual cola. It doesn't open up the, it's a... Yeah, I had the actual, like, it was a literal Coca-Cola.

Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I was like, I didn't know they had that out here. Yeah. Must have got in Puerto Maldonado. Exactly. Can you imagine him like going into the woods chopping off parts of the...

He does? He does, yeah. And then grinding it up and putting in a cola bottle. You know? Some optics don't matter. Yeah. So much for blood of Christ. Yeah.

So, so we get it and drink it and I'm like, this time my eyes are closed and I'm breathing and paying attention to the breathing and doing box exercises yeah breathing box exercises and such had you done that in the first experience at all yeah that's that's why you probably missed yeah um and i also didn't take it seriously and i realized in that earlier that day that i needed to close my eyes i needed to um to calm my soul and open my mind to this experience. And because he said it was a positive experience, I'm like, great.

So 45 minutes goes by, Mario comes back, gives me more. The first night that we're doing it, he was more vocal in those 45 minutes. This night, for the first 45 minutes, didn't say a thing. All you'd get once in a while is just hear the click of that. of his lighter as he lights up the tobacco and that's it and this was my experience there was something

trippy really about that um and so i start being able to hear intensely the jungle i can hear i can hear the jungle a little bit more and with my eyes closed and breathing i can see this the the stars. I can see through the roof of this building, of this hut. And I could see the entire Milky Way above me. And my eyes are completely close. And I trust that, yes, that's what I'm seeing, for sure. And he told us that because we did the first round, we wouldn't puke as much or purge as much. Because we've already gotten it out of our system. What that purging is, is in essence, taking out all the toxins out of your body, all of the things that you're built in to your soul and your body and getting rid of it at that point.

And so he comes over with round three. I happily drink it. And I laid back down. I could still see the stars. and I'm constantly waiting for it to kick in. And I feel my breathing getting heavier and heavier. And I'm telling myself, from the very start, I'm like, okay, concentrate on breathing, concentrating and breathing, keep coming back to the breathing.

And I keep telling myself that. And that voice starts to become louder. That same voice that I had at the start, like maybe two hours earlier, that was just kind of mild and just saying keep breathing, it becomes an actual voice that is saying breathe breathe breathe and so I get up I have to go to a bathroom with pee and instead of using the little lighter to to navigate yourself in the dark that we would have the little headlamp or such I realized I didn't need it I with my eyes closed still I got up, navigated that entire place, got to the bathroom without opening my eyes.

I can, but yet I could see through everything. Oh, you went to the bed. You didn't hit the trees. No, I didn't get, I didn't hit the trees. I kind of missed the experience. It's part of it. Not an animal. I'm from Jersey, but I continue.

Why didn't I go to the trees? Yeah. Huh. It was trippy here in the stream. oh my god oh on the outside like hitting the bushes and shit i it was cool like it was still kind of trippy hitting hitting the toilet yeah um um so i come back and the voice is like all right keep breathing keep breathing keep breathing um i get up i throw up laid back down and then i hear the voice breathing and then

all of a sudden, like, my upper torso, it just, as if there was a string attached you, it just pulls me up, like, towards the, the roof and, or like the exorcist. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. And flopped me back down. And then does it, like, in quick succession, right again, and then flops me back down. And it's at that point, that voice that had been getting louder and louder became an external voice. I was looking with my eyes closed and I could feel the voice right there in

front of me. And I've come to realize it's that point when my soul left my body. And it just like yanked itself out of me. And I was after like a couple of conversations where I was saying keep breathing, keep breathing. We can't do this if you're not going to breathe. And it became increasingly annoying the voice. But then it said, I said, like, wait, are you, are you my soul? Are we like soul brothers? He's like, no, we're more like soul sisters. And we started singing Lady Marmalade to each other. Hey, sister, soul sister. Like, what? And I'm like, all right, this might end up being a positive experience. We're going to a drag brunch.

So it's just like, it starts talking with me, and it's like, let's go on a journey. Let's fly out of this place for a little while, and we fly out of the jungle, and I could see myself flying out at the dark, and I could see the lights of Lima, and we kept flying above. We got to Bogota and then we got to, uh, we got to, uh, to Miami where I was living at the time. And I flew into the window and I could see like my partner and my, my, my puppy sitting there on, on, like, on the couch. And the dog like looks up at me at the same time. And, and in, like, this puppy voice was like, you need to do this. Go back. You need to, you need to do this for you. And I didn't realize my dog had a voice. He did now.

You did now. Is it like Morgan Freeman's voice or James Earl Jones? No, it's just like Japanese anime. Oh, no. Damn it, that's such a letdown. I know, I know. I'm like, come on, Tito. Puerto Rican dog with a Japanese anime voice.

So I flew back in the jungle and the voice was still there. It was outside of me. And it was just saying, you know, the reason that that you're just hopping from one city to the next, you're, you can't keep a job, you've suffered from depression for so many years, you're doing all this stuff, is that you don't love yourself. Have you ever said to yourself that you love yourself? Have you realized all the gifts that you have? it said i could be in any other body but i choose to be here with you and yet you don't love me

your soul and it's like i i'm a beautiful beautiful soul i'm like yes you are you are sarcastic yes you are and but you recognize it yeah yeah it was completely it was me that's good it was completely me and and it just said like you know you're recounted all the times that i tried that i had suicide ideation um all the anxiety attacks that i've had and um at some critical moments in my career as well and the childhood abuse and such and it's saying that you've done all this work to improve yourself but you still don't love yourself And it's like, I want you to say, I love you. And let's more swear like, I love you.

Like, oh, say it louder. Like, I love you. Like, louder. Like, I love you. And I'm just saying it over and over and over and over and over loudly in the halls. And Mary was like, it's working. Brahmao. Marry's like, the dark matter is gone.

Yeah, it's very strange having someone describe a trip with the same guy I did it with like down in the middle of the fucking Peruvian Amazon I can picture this yes it's kind of wild it also I think like in in the end of like this our meeting and this it's all had its genesis somewhere probably back then yeah yeah it's so all of a sudden I had this this this need to yawn and it was like the biggest yawn that I've ever ever ever experienced So my eyes are closed, and I just see like this white orb go into my body while I'm yawning. And at that point, the voice became internal again. My soul had reentered my body.

It had done what it felt I needed to do. It had given me a daily affirmation of looking in the mirror and telling myself that I love myself. and I had no idea it sounds stupid to say but I never knew the importance of self-love I never knew that it was how important it is to just feel secure in who you are and to go about the day

and just appreciate everything that you have and your soul I don't think you ever got that chance no no my entire life has been just one giant like go go go go running away from different things yep and not addressing these different issues um therapy didn't help me with that you can't teach like self-love has to be up yeah something that comes from within yeah for sure and that what i was

at the end of the day what i got out of that experience so that went back in And I just started bawling. I just felt the guilt of 40 years of hating myself, not realizing that my body is quite fine, that I'm a good person, and just all the self-hate that I had built up, I just kept bawling, and I just felt guilty, and I kept apologizing loudly to my soul. I'm like, I'm really, really, really sorry. And Mario walked over at that point. I poured some with hazel or some sort of oil on my head.

And my friend Prince, who's still, like, deep breathing over there, he's like, I'm coming for you. I like how you can't find me. He wanted to hug me. I bawled for quite a bit. And then... Do you still feel that security today that you felt from that moment where you're like oh my god like yeah that's awesome yeah but it's one of the things about many of

these experiences is as you probably know is the integration into your everyday life and by continuing to reinforce like the daily affirmation different things like that and and be conscious to triggers that might be a negative element into your life um It really helps to continue the medicine journey for you. Yes. I haven't felt a calling for ayahuasca again, but I'm open to it if it becomes something that my soul feels that it needs. Yeah, I like that attitude with it because I think, unfortunately, like in the pop culture of America attitude, people are like, oh, I'm just going to go down and do five trips. Oh, and then I'll do five trips.

It's not like that. Like, I had a long talk with JJ the next morning before we got on that boat. He's lived, he's 52. he's lived in the amazon jungle since he was zero and his brother's like the one of the last like true shamans left mario he's done it nine times in his life that's it wow you know he's like this is not a he's very adamant about that he's like these people they was you know obviously talking about like people from america yeah the west and whatever he's like they come down here and they think this is like just something you just you just do over and over again yeah it is like it is not

like that this is a very specific thing it's a very it's a very special sacred thing obviously it's like my family takes it very seriously because of our our ties to this land and you know the fact that my brother is is the guy who does this but like you have to really be able to hone in and get something out of it and I will say it's it's great to hear your second one really seem to get you somewhere with yourself too but like I said I went into it completely blind as never researched any of it at all, which I'm not recommending that, by the way. But I do think that ended up turning out for the best because, for example, I knew nothing about like the ego death thing or any of that whatsoever. So it was very strange afterwards when I described, you know,

we were talking about different things. And I said, yeah, at some point in it after round three when we did that, Trevor, who was my friend there, who was, who was doing ayahuasca with me, after round two the two of us went out to the trees and we had to go to the bathroom at the same time so we come back and we and we didn't talk but we knew we were like in an intense meditation and we're like all right great sit down wait for our instructions and maria was like okay round three and in round three when i laid back and he was maria was sitting on a on like a cot in front of an open air window on no glass obviously and the entire jungle was illuminated and i i don't know if it was full moon that night probably wasn't but there was some illumination of the moon going on and you could really see like the light coming in so your eyes are open and you're very you're in a complete meditative state just looking at that and being aware of the sounds because Mario wasn't

saying anything like you described kind of in your second one and i remember this voice that was my own voice didn't feel like it was outside of me or like my soul it was just my internal voice said release your ego and submit wow and it just said that like not like release you're going to submit really it wasn't like that it was just very calmly now every few minutes and i was just like so like all right it was it was so nonchaline i was like all right that sounds great wow and you're just completely present that was the number one thing i was like you're so present with this i wasn't like tripping balls or anything i saw some nice beautiful visuals usually with my eyes open by the way. Really? Yes, not with my eyes closed. I close my eyes sometimes. Wow. But we had

that morning, that's a whole other story. I'm not going to tell right now. I told it on John Rondy's podcast when I got back in 2024. I'll look that down below. But we had had a whole experience the night before, courtesy of Mr. Paul Rosalie that left me quite traumatized. But that morning, when we woke up, we all were on a bunch of us, like five of us were on a remote beach where we had camped out and disaster struck overnight. But when we woke up in the morning at the crack of dawn, Paul let Trevor and I go ahead of him because he was going to do some drone footage stuff back there

and basically kayak up the Amazon as the sun was coming up. Oh, nice. Which was like the little kid in me was like, this is funny awesome. And so when I was having ayahuasca then, as it would turn out that night, I got to replay exactly what I had seen. but it was just more illuminated and it included

no one talked to me other than that voice that said that once in a while but like my grandma who had died the year before I saw her you did yeah yeah it was very calmly it was very peaceful

a friend of mine who had passed away about a month before I saw him as well realistically yes and he was someone who was unexpectedly like very integral and me being

able to succeed in what I do now. And, you know, that had been tough on me when, when, when he died in the spring of 24. And I was, it gave me not closure or anything like that, but it gave me a sense of peace about it. It was just the calmest, most present thing I've ever been a part of. That's how I describe it. So I think those things were part of the calling for why you ended up doing ayahuasca. Maybe. Yeah. those were some of the things were that took place and the universes like you needed to come here and be there and experience this so that you can come to peace with or try to get some sort of peace with those deaths yes i i could definitely buy that i don't i don't know if i ever fully thought

of it that way but that would make sense to me i think what it what it really did because i've always people are like really like you didn't trip balls i'm like no they're like man you must have not work i'm like no no i was with the guy and it it worked it was phenomenal but it was i have lived such a chaotic life really a lot of my life but especially in this career and i had never taken a day off and at that point the over four years of doing it of doing this and i went down to the amazon i put my phone in my bag it was off for the entire two weeks which was fucking incredible. Paul couldn't believe that. He thought, he was sure I was going to take it out. I was like, no, dude, I got out. When we got there and he said, yeah, the Wi-Fi passwords over there,

I'm like, why-Fi password? I'm like, no, I'm not fucking touching my phone. He's like, yeah, okay. We're in a yoga studio in L.A.? Yeah. And then, and then, you know, I was just, I was already present and then doing that at the culmination of it, what it really did for me is all, I don't want to say all, but many of the little micro things that I would just, just let affect fucking everything, every day and wear me down. I was like, you know what? I have this mountain. The way I described it is I could feel I have this mountain of problems. But the bottom like three quarters of it, if you will, is an invention of stuff that really doesn't matter. You have to focus about the three to five actual things that are major, not issues,

but problems to be solved at the top of this mountain and let your energy be focused on that and not pulled away to all these things. And I swear to God, like, when I look back on it now and see where my career is at this moment, like a year and a half later, I can almost draw the line and be like, that is kind of how it turned out.

I let go of a lot of things that I previously couldn't let go of. And I never consciously, like, thought, because I did ayahuasca, now I need to listen to it, it just did it. And again, that was one of those other things that was calling you there. Yeah. Yep.

You hadn't had a day off in four years. Like all of those forces contributed to you saying, you know what? I need to do ayahuasca. And because it's, it is a difference between, you know, after death and before. and like we're in that after death period right now and where it is bonus time where we become so grateful for everything we have and it does create that matter of presence in everyday life as long as you pay attention to it and that is really one of the best things about the lingering effects of it for me yeah it's really what's really cool about you kennis is

it sounds like with all the different experiences you've had like randomly as well you've been able to like capture the whatever the thing was in the moment that you're like ooh I'm onto something here yeah and hold on to it and then allow that to give you peace in your life and also deal with things in the past that you had previously filed away yeah into your conscious and I think for a lot of people listening out there who maybe have been certainly dealing with their own struggles in life in the past or things that could be even traumatic, like some of the stuff you described, you know, it's not to say like, oh, you need to go do psychedelics or something, but to see that there's any kind of pathway, whatever that may be, be it

psychedelics or, you know, really meditating, whatever, whatever it is, to see that there is some sort of light on the other side that you can possibly have to get more present with your past and understand what that did to you and then be able to use that to move forward in a positive way, I think that's inspirational for people. So I really appreciate you, sharing your whole journey throughout today. Yeah, I mean, it's, listen,

in the black community, we don't talk much about mental health issues. We just say, go with God, pray, you'll pray it away. So we suffer in silence most of the time, which is why I wanted to talk about it more and more and write a book about it. But when I discovered the benefits that it had for me, plant medicine, I wanted more people to know about it, not necessarily to say that, to advocate and say that it's for you,

but maybe start a conversation. There was a text I got today. This morning, this kid, I didn't know him six months ago, and he's suffered from depression for so many years. and he just texted me and said like he was doing his first MDMA treatment today with a doctor. Okay. And that's how you do it.

Yeah, exactly. And I was like, hey, I'm doing this podcast. Do you think my book helped you? And he's like, absolutely not only helped me, it saved my life. I'm 100% serious. He's like, I'm off medication right now. I'm feeling great. Wow.

that's just that right there is enough yeah that's it that's all you if you did nothing else and you definitely have done other things yeah just that that's so fucking cool man to like save his life that's that's insane well if if people out there want to want to hear more about this or specifically read more about this you buy five trips we're going to have that linked down below where you obviously outline this whole thing and I actually want to read that as well myself I haven't talked with you it's just it's it's really cool to see like where you got to but this was awesome man thank you so much for coming over and doing it on a saturday oh i appreciate it this was a lot of fun all right and paul is straight paul is straight

that's right shout out paul rosalie everybody else you know what it is give it a thought get back to me peace thank you for watching this episode guys if you have not already please hit that subscribe button before you leave and like the video and i'll see you guys for the next episode thank you