Julian Dorey Podcast - #394 - "Satanic!" - Epstein Survivor TELLS ALL on Epstein Island & Disturbing Links | Lisa Phillips

Episode Date: March 10, 2026

SPONSORS: 1) AMENTARA: Check out https://amentara.com/go/JULIAN and use code JD22 for 22% off your first order. WATCH PREVIOUS EPSTEIN FILES EPISODES: https://youtu.be/MGkQG78NTNI JOIN PATREON FOR EARLY UNCENSORED EPISODE RELEASES: https://www.patreon.com/JulianDorey CLIPPERS DISCORD: https://discord.gg/8QmWEKJ3BT LISA's LINKS: IG: https://www.instagram.com/iamlisaphillips/ YT: https://www.youtube.com/@UCHKwmUQXbKa2bs7qYmlfkNQ FOLLOW JULIAN DOREY IG: https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey/ X: https://x.com/juliandorey JULIAN YT CHANNELS - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Clips YT: https://www.youtube.com/@juliandoreyclips - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Daily YT: https://www.youtube.com/@JulianDoreyDaily - SUBSCRIBE to Best of JDP: https://www.youtube.com/@bestofJDP ****TIMESTAMPS**** 0:00 - Epstein Files latest Drop “Sickening,” Howard Lutnick 11:05 - “Everybody knew about Epstein,” Cape Town Trafficking, Lisa’s son 22:04 - Are people born this way?, Pam Bondi, Thomas Massie 31:30 - Why many victims don’t come forward, Lisa’s family, Pre-iPhone Blackmail 41:21 - Europe taking action on Epstein, Epstein Island Horrors, Epstein Coverup 50:52 - Epstein secrecy, Lisa’s parents background & her childhood 58:39 - Entering the modeling industry as a MINOR, Insane depraved parties 1:11:51 - Underground Casting Methods, Epstein working w/ Modeling Agencies, Les Wexner 1:26:19 - Epstein Intelligence 1:27:48 - Meeting Epstein & Prince Andrew for first time (STORY) 1:33:21 - Epstein attacks Lisa on Epstein Island (STORY) 1:45:37 - Epstein Recruitment Pyramid Scheme, Ghislaine Maxwell & Sarah Kellen 1:51:16 - Epstein follows up with Lisa, Attending R*** Support Groups 1:56:54 - Lisa turns cold post-Epstein, Epstein Master Manipulator 2:02:21 - Lisa and Epstein meet again… CREDITS: - Host, Editor & Producer: Julian Dorey - COO, Producer & Editor: Alessi Allaman - https://www.youtube.com/@UCyLKzv5fKxGmVQg3cMJJzyQ - In-Studio Producer: Joey Deef - https://www.instagram.com/joeydeef/ Julian Dorey Podcast Episode 394 - Lisa Phillips Music by Artlist.io Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In communities across Canada, hourly Amazon employees can grow their skills and their paycheck by enrolling in free skills training programs for in-demand fields. Learn more at aboutamazon.ca. Lisa, it's great to finally meet you. Thank you for coming out to Jersey for this. Thank you for having me. I'm super, super excited to be here. Well, it's been a very interesting ride for you, and particularly the last three weeks. And I've seen you also out there doing the damn thing with other brave survivors as well.

advocating you've done this for a while to be clear but now it's like because everything's out there for people watching this by the way maybe you're watching this five years from now 10 years from now we're going to respond to some of the recent news at the beginning and then we're going to get to lisa's story as well so if the news is old stuff you can skip ahead to that but what's it what's it been like to now see and we'll get to all the problems with this release but what's it been like to now see so much of the things that you have been pounding the table telling people people, it was this bad, now actually be visible to the public to be like, holy shit, it's this bad.

Well, it's funny you say that because I've always known it's been really bad, you know, but I had no idea it was this bad. Really? Every year I found out more and more information that corroborates my story and many of the other survivor stories. We had like cross-reference, connect the dots. But in the last couple years, everything is making a lot more sense. which is why we've come together to really bring it to the attention and awareness of, you know,

the American people and, well, basically the world now. The world. Yeah. Yeah. So now it was just always was so important. But, I mean, this last drop a few weeks ago, really is where people are really getting what's the major cover up really is. Yeah.

I mean, I've looked at this case a lot for the last. seven years. Oh, seven years. Yeah. I mean, when it came out in 2019, I remember there were like a few articles about him in 2015, I probably read some in 2017. Like I remember Politico, I want to say, did a piece. It was like, huh, that's kind of interesting. Never went all the way there. And then he got arrested. And I'm like, all right, this feels off. And then you start looking. And you're like, what? Yeah, no one really paid attention until he died. Yeah. 2019. That was same for me. That's what everything turned for me. Right. And we'll talk about that for sure. But, but, But when this latest tranche came out on January 30th of emails and files, the darkness in there and just the things they would so flippantly talk about.

And the code words. I mean, it's like if you're a hardcore conspiracy theorist, you are taking a very not happy victory lap right now because you're like, told you. Yep, yep. Right? Yeah, those conspiracy theorists were finding out we're right. Yeah. On a lot of things.

Yeah. Now, you didn't, some of the other victims that you've connected with that you've had a chance to talk with since this latest round came out, have they, were some of them involved in any of the really, really bad stuff we've seen in the files and no.

Nothing. Nothing that we know of. I mean, maybe they had something to do with that, but I just feel like that was a different layer that most people didn't know about. I actually think that's the layer that they never wanted anyone to know about because, I mean, everyone knew about, you know, if you're 18 and over, and then we knew about the underage girls, you know. But when it came to what we're seeing, the really dark and depraved interactions and the way they're talking about children, that was harder. I always knew it was probably there just because I've heard things over the years, but I had no idea until you actually like read it and see the pictures. And to read how it was just tossed around like it was nothing. Like it was just another day of like bring over, you know, the pizza and beer.

It was just like talking like they weren't actually talking about real human beings or somebody's kid, you know? Exactly. I've actually been really sickened like I feel sick. Yeah. I'm more emotional about it just because dealing with the underage girls was hard for me because I have a 14-year-old boy. So when I met the survivors and they were 14 years old when they were abused and he took their virginity, things like that, I just had a hard time accepting it and understanding it.

So, I mean, this goes to a whole other level now. Yeah. And it's also like you talk about the ones that with the really dark stuff that you haven't been able to see come forward. Unfortunately, you have to wonder if from that stuff, if anyone's even alive. Because it shows, really, like it shows in the files. I mean, what was he buying beef? Like 330 gallons of sulfuric acid? It's like.

You never know. That's what I'm saying. Well, I mean, most of the survivors that have come forward are 14 to 24. Yeah. When the abuse happened, 1,200 or something, the FBI says, 1,200 plus. Added a couple zeros to that, but yeah. Yeah, well, I don't know, accounting. I don't think they were counting the end that young.

So I remember when they did the, when the case from 05, when they were first bringing it and ended up being covered up, obviously, covered one of the things that they would find out is that Gie Lenn would refer to, the girls. I mean, these were 12, 13 year old, 14 year old girls that she would go recruit as I think it was the word was new Biles, which so therefore, we've known for a while like Jeffrey and Gie Lenn looked at other humans like total trash, killed children, no less. Oh, she said that. Right. So to see now though that all the people that he associated with, no matter how smart, rich, or connected or whatever they were, so many of them, I'll say, looked at it the same way.

It's like, well, how widespread is a problem like this? Not only do they look at other people's kids that way. They looked at their own kids that way. They would say, oh, we're bringing our kids, you know, 11-year-old, 14-year-old, 9-year-old, you know, they didn't even have names. If I'm going to meet you, I would say I'm bringing my kids, you know, Tom Dick and Harry. Like I wouldn't say like the ages.

It's really, it's really creepy the way they talked about their own children. But a lot of the men in the files talked about their kids like that. Yeah. That email in particular, you're referring to the Howard Ludnik one really set me off. Oh, shoot. Yeah. And I mean, even just, even just saying like, you know, I'm coming to the island and I'm bringing my kids and my nanny.

And people were like, oh, nothing happened because I brought my kids and my nanny. It's like, that's the whole thing right there. It's like the cover-up of, no, my wife was there. My kids were there. My nanny was there. Well, that's why they were there, you know. How about the fact that he goes in front of Congress has to admit that that concocted dramatic story that he told on public camera four months before was a complete fabrication of his imagination. Let Nick?

Yeah. Did you see his eye contact during that? and I decided that I would never associate with that disgusting individual ever again. Ever again. Ever again. He's like, gross. Yeah. He's gross.

So you know what he was right when he said that? He knew he was a disgusting individual. That's the truth. And that he's gross. And that I've never had anything to do with him. That's a normal thing that a lot of these men have said over the years, that I have nothing to do with him. Gates as well. Nothing to do with that guy.

And then it comes out, they've kept in touch with them for years and years. and really on a really depraved scale. Yes. You know, that's, that's the, that's the craziness. That's the thing where you're like, wait a second, shouldn't that be investigated? Yes. Like, why isn't that investigated? I have nothing to do with that man.

And then it finds out years, you know, you were visiting this guy. Why were you hiding it? Right. And sociopaths, if you want to go straight to that term, and I would with many of the people in these files, you know, they have no ability to feel. empathy right and so when a guy like that thing gets up in front of Congress and with a dead straight face admits that that was all a lie and then says yeah you know I did meet with him and we did go to the island but it was only for an hour I'll get back to that in a second

and by the way when I leave here I'm going to continue doing my job advising the president every single day and what the fuck are you going to do about it the hubris you have to have to be like that is insane but you bring it up I I love that you brought up the details about him saying during the hearing i was there for an hour which who goes to an island for an hour thief was saying that right you couldn't say the afternoon right that's number one number two he had it was just very strange to me and i don't know if i'm reading into it too much but the way he said it he's like and we left with my wife with my children and as well as our nannies and it was almost like so there was an option that you were going to leave them behind there

You know what I mean? Like the way he said it, and I am on edge listening, but I was looking at that like, you're just going to leave him with Jeff on his island? Well, they kind of tell on themselves because what a sociopath does, it's like they're trying to lead you in a certain way to think something by telling you these details, overly, you know, stated details,

but in the details, doesn't make any sense at all. It actually makes you look more guilty. That's right. I mean, he's completely guilty, as we know. I mean, this is not me, speculating or you speculating it's in the files you know so um and he and his own admission covered it up for whatever reason he could have said from the start yeah it was there it was just business but he was saying i was never there you know so um i have seen that with quite a few of

those men saying that they weren't there they had nothing to do with him and they had no financial dealings and then it comes out later they're you know emailing oh that little seven-year-old was naughty. Right. You know, little things like that. And who writes like that? Sick, depraved people. Who writes like that? I would like to think I don't know anyone like that, but very sadly when you look at stuff like this, you wonder if there's like someone you know who's secretly like that. Of course. You really do. Because like the, I know a lot of people, right? I do a job where I connect with people all the time. The percentages say I know someone like that. I know. Of course. We all do. We all do. We'll never, we never really know. You know, until they're exposed. Then it's

like, oh, well, then here comes all the excuses of why you were friends with him. That's right. The thing about Epstein is that all the survivors know or anyone who's ever been around him, he was perversion written all over him. He never hid it. You knew exactly the type of man that he was. And also, I mean, to go a little deeper, you know, having to be around these people to just get something on them or to blackmail them, he made it known very quickly what

he was into just to see how much that person would be into. Because a little bit here, oh, here's a 19-year-old, and then, you know, here's a 15-year-old, and then to see if they can push anybody younger to get anything on them. And when you have that type of leverage on someone, there's many, many things you can do with that when someone's that powerful. Yes. So that was like the basis of who Epstein was with everyone in those files. If you read on any political or powerful person, it was all, if you look at the way they spoke to each other, was on more of a little bit of a sadistic or sinister level.

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Obviously, we've always heard about the famous flight in O2, when infamous flight, when Jeffrey took Bill Clinton and Kevin Spacey and Chris Tucker on over to Africa. Yeah, Cape Town. What was it like the African AIDS conference or something? So that's an example where there were, you know, some entertainers there as well. But what Andrew pointed out that he's very, in my opinion, right about is that, yes, Jeffrey sometimes would be seen with entertainers and some famous people like that. But when we're reading the email files and going through the people who are clearly in on it, pretty much everyone you see is wealthy, powerful, but like a nerd. You know, like they're scientists or their business guys.

They're nerds. We're just like, you know how it is. The entertainers, they don't have any problem getting their own kind of. a date. But these guys, they're nerds. And then obviously they're, they've pushed themselves to a whole other level where they then, I guess, like, take out their own insecurities in the worst way. Well, yeah, of course. I mean, men love to be around beautiful women. I mean, we get that. But a lot of these nerds, they're really busy. They're businessmen. You know, some of them are billionaires. They got really packed schedules. They can't really fit in. And a lot of them are

married, you know, to fit in, to fit in, you know, to fit in, you know, to fit in, you know, to fit in, you know, you know, having some young girl by their side or whatever. So, you know, you do some business with Epstein, and then he has these young girls. Always around them. Always around. Always around him. He didn't travel without them. So let's just stick to some facts.

So when he went to South Africa to Cape Town, Jeffrey set up like a modeling, Cape Town's a big modeling market where girls traveled to to work. I did. Right after high school, 1998, in 2003, I went there for six months and I worked as a model there. You do magazines and catalogs and TV commercials and you really build your book so that you're worth more when you come back to New York to work as a model. So Epstein is a fact set up with his secretaries and his assistants, older assistants that were there, modeling, casting, where girls would show up and, you know, if he liked a particular one, you know, he got their information. And then later on he flew them from Cape Town to New York. So, and I knew, I know some girls that were involved in that, who were abused on that trip. So let's just say, this is a fact that happened.

How much of those other men know what was going on? Did he do that in secrecy? And the other men don't really know what's going on around him? So I just find it, my whole point is I just find it odd that anyone would say, I have no idea what he was doing. when this was he didn't mention the casting he didn't mention the beautiful young girls that he was meeting there who later were shipped from cape town to new york city shipped to the island shipped to different places you know so this is just the way that he operated um sex trafficking 101 internationally right there well there you go yeah that is sex trafficking you put someone on a plane

and ship them somewhere else and then that's it they get trapped in the island their passports are taken away and then next minute you're like told to go into this room to have sex with this person yeah i mean you mentioned you have a 14 year old son you know he's still not 17 or 18 or older like you know but it's it's your son how do you talk with him about this well um my boys know about you know what i've gone through i've always been honest with them from the start i mean a lot of the survivors are mothers of girls, but I have boys. And they're always like, oh, I do this for my, for my girls, you know, because of the world we're in, they need to be educated, they need to know what's going on, but so do boys.

Absolutely. Yeah, boys need to know what's going on too. And just to navigate this whole world, it's very different from, you know, from when I grew up, when nobody talked about these kinds of things, you know, you know, you know, after I spoke out in Capitol Hill, I had thousands and thousands of emails and DMs and text messages coming in from so many people around the world who have been abused and mostly from childhood and they had never told anyone in 20, 30, 40, 50 years. And for some reason, because I spoke out, you know, they felt like they could just reach out to me just to get it off their chest,

just to say, you know, this is what happened to me. Do you know that an overwhelming amount of them were men. You know, there's so many men out there who are suffering through this and so many men out there who support, there's so many men out there who support the survivors. It's not just a women's problem, right? And so when we survivors, we stand up there, we're not just standing up there for Epstein survivors, the 1,200 or maybe many more, but all survivors of sexual abuse. because it's a major problem.

If you, if this case were just alone, the sex trafficking and sexual abuse, it's one of, if not, I can't think of anything bigger, the largest known case in modern and maybe human history of this being brought to light in, you know, decent human society. Then when you think about all the other things that that was used for and all the other questions. Like the scope of it, you can't even fathom. Who would, was it? Tucker Carlson was saying it's like a super government or something. Steve, I don't want to get that wrong. But it was a fair point. He was talking about reading all these emails and then seeing all the people that Jeffrey's talking with about literal pedophilia.

It was, okay, it was literal pedophilia, literal sex trafficking and all that. And then he's like, and then you got arms dealing and government contracts and money laundering and all these other things. And it's like... Financial institutions, universities. It's like are these people seem to be talking like all the people that we elect work for the people who work for them. Oh yeah. And then they use this kind of stuff, discarding human lives essentially to advance those means. I can't, I'm still trying to wrap my...

Obviously, like everyone else out there, it makes me angry. But like I'm still trying to wrap my head around that reality because we've heard these terms for years where people talk about like the world order and stuff. And you're like, well, here it is on JEE vacation at gmail.com. Yeah. Yeah, I actually think that the whole thing with the babies and the young girls and stuff is just like a hobby or something they do for fun. A hobby. This is something they do for fun. It's just another thing that I'm a billionaire and these kids are, you know, just like you said, there's.

no value to them and they're just discarded. We have 300, 400,000 kids that go missing in the United States. And then you just said it's like the biggest sex trafficking ring, but I don't know. I mean, we have the Boy Scouts, which is tens of thousands. We have the Catholic Church, tens and tens and tens of thousands. I mean, the juvenile detention center in Los Angeles came out a billion dollar settlements over 10,000 kids, you know. So people need to like, Like, understand, yeah, this is massive and this expands to over, you know, governments and all over the world. It's a global thing. But this is a massive problem we have all over the world that's been covered up for many, many years, you know.

It's way bigger than any of us would have liked to imagine. Like, there are far more people like this. And one of the things I struggle with is like, do you think some people are just like born with some kind of deranged gene, whereas they grow up, they're like, oh, that's what I need. Doregene. Well, I think having the financial means to do what you want to do amplifies that. So maybe there's a little bit of, let's say they weren't a billionaire. How would they have access to do all this stuff?

Maybe they wouldn't be an abuser. Maybe they want to just, you know, have sex with a young girl. I don't know. But who has access to that? To actually make that step and do those things is pretty darn difficult. You know what I mean? I mean, there's a lot of, there's a law you have to answer to. So you have to be pretty clever to try to get around all this stuff.

I bet look at all the pedophiles out there. I mean, it's a system that we could easily shut down, but, you know, there's so many different access to children, you know, Roblox and, you know, Instagram, Snapchat. I mean, they could shut that down so easily or the porn industry, you know, those girls are trafficked in, you know. So, I mean, this is a major, major issue in our society that it's going to take a long time to, you know, to make a difference here. But I think for the first time people are seeing with Epstein survivors, these brave women that are coming forward that aren't giving up. And for the first time ever, because usually you're just like, okay, yeah, yeah, we hear your story, you're out of here.

But this is the first time ever that people worldwide are behind us. Yes. Right? When we spoke out at Capitol Hill, there was a total global shift in the way people thought around survivors. And Congress got behind us. We met with representatives. We're still meeting with representatives. We were at the Pam Bondi hearing right behind her. Who do you think is working or helping us out here? This is the people. At that hearing, people were right in her face asking these tough questions. You know, and she deflected and she looked at, she looked at. through her notebook. The Dow! The Dow's at 50,000. That was so frustrating. Oh, God. I mean, we can joke about it now, but I was so... She's not the brightest bulb. I can't imagine how frustrating that is, though, for you sitting there. It just didn't make any sense. It was like, are you kidding me? Yeah. This is so important that we're here. We're standing here. We're representing 1,200 victims here. And they're asking

her to just like, hey, look behind you, acknowledge them. And she couldn't even, her face didn't move this bit. It was like a, so there's images of it that look haunting, but I would encourage people to go watch the video of when you and the other survivors stood up because it was, it was for like a good minute or two, right? Yeah. And just watch Bondi because the video in that case can't be taken on context. She never turns and it's, it had the same vibes to me as like when a serial killer's at their sentencing hearing and won't face the victim's families. Oh my God, I didn't think about that. I mean, exactly how it feels. felt. She was so cold. It was cold and it was just disgusting. Like I really was like shaking,

you know, because I just couldn't understand when you take the time to go there and you're doing the right thing, Massey and, you know, Korea, like all these people were speaking out and saying, you know, do the right thing here, answer, and just answer these questions. And she could even do it. Right. She couldn't even answer a question. She didn't even answer one question. Right? And then that moment, I think it was three different times. They were like, can you turn around and just say you're sorry or explain something? And it wasn't even, she could have just been like, hey, you know, said anything. But it was just like the total feeling of being dismissed that you don't matter. You're unworthy. Like you're nothing to us. We're up here and you're just little pieces of shits over here that are in, that are giving us so many problems and we can't stand you. It was more like that feeling of like Galane, how Galane. Elaine said about, oh, these girls, they're nothing. They're worthless. You know?

Yeah. It was that same type of feeling. You know, but I think they need to stop doing that because the more they treat us like that, the more anger we get and the more Congress gets behind us and the more we're going to be in their face. So, hey, guys, three quick things. Number one, if you haven't subscribed, please subscribe to huge, huge help. Number two, if you'd like to join my Patreon for early uncensored releases of the full episodes,

you can join via the link of my description or in the pincom. comment below. And number three, if you'd like to join my clipping community for a chance to make content from the show and make money, you can join via the Discord link in my description below. Yeah, and this is the wild thing about this story. We've lived in such divided times and it just pisses me off so much. But with this story now being something that has happened that we cannot change, that we can now learn as much as we can about it and try to write. I mean, you can't write the wrongs that happen, but make things right moving forward. You know, this is everybody.

Yeah. Every administration left and right has covered this up. Every Congress to this point left and right has covered this up. And you finally have some people on both sides of the aisle pushing it. They're still not enough. Like they're, I appreciate the people that are doing it. But I wish it was unanimous, all 535 of them between Congress and Senate doing this. But, you know, I've never seen like Roe Kana and Thomas Massey both have a very similar disposition.

They're very right here at all times. And Roe has maintained that, and Massey's maintained that very well throughout this whole process. I have never in my life seen Thomas Massey lose his mind, though, like he did on Pam Bondi. Like that was, you know. But he lost his mind with facts. Yeah, exactly. And upset about what he was showing. He had the printouts right there.

Like, explain this. That's right. And he kept it together in that way. She lost her mind by insulting him. That's right. It was, like, why do you have to go to it? When you have nothing left, you go to insults. Yeah.

Right? It was like out of like her playbook of what to say to him and what to say to this one and what to say to this one. You know, um, it was out of whose playbook do you think that was out of? It's all political for sure. Yeah, deflect, name call, do whatever. That's what politics is. And like in my lifetime, at least since John Ashcroft, who was the AG under George Bush,

there's been this thing that is very clear. really happened where attorney generals have gone from supposed to be separate running the DOJ as like their own ivory tower in that way. I don't mean that in a bad way. Right. To now they are a legitimate political arm. We've seen that in every single administration. Guys like Eric Holder, Bill Barr, these guys belong in prison for the things that they did,

provably, you know? But they're not because they're serving their administration for political means. And we just saw a verbal example of that the other day. that unfortunately also you as a victim and other victims have to stand there and be like, what the fuck are we even? Like, this isn't hard. Yeah. You know?

Now, do you think anyone, I'm going to get to Europe because you and I got to talk about that, but do you think anyone in the United States is going to go to jail for this? Probably not. Probably not. And regardless of they're willing to actually do a thorough investigation, a lot of the victims don't want to come forward. So without the victims, you know, actually speaking out and having that, you know, bravery to do so, it's not going to happen. I mean, most of them that I talk to don't want to talk. So, okay, wait a second. So like the ones who have been standing with you and speaking

for a while now, not just recently, but who have been speaking out against that, you're not referring to those ones. You're referring to, if I'm correct, your other, victims that maybe you have spoken with off the record who just don't want to, and I understand this, I'm not judging at all, but like who are afraid to come forward. Yeah, I think most are afraid to come forward. Wow, even now. Yeah, because when, I mean, look what happened to Virginia. I mean, they literally took out pictures of her kids, you know, to make her, intimidate her to back down. Look what she went through.

I mean, nobody wants to go through that. I mean, I think people just want to get accountability, like answers, out of them, you know, put it out there so that the public is aware of what's going on like we're seeing now and hopefully we'll continue to see. But actual justice, like being deposed for a case and going up against these types of people who have endless funds, that's going to be very difficult. I mean, that's what they have working on their side is they know who, obviously they abused and they've been. they've already probably have an NDA with them. They probably already silenced them. So if someone has already come forward, they have already said, well, here's some money and you be quiet, and they've signed an NDA so they can't speak out. You've got to remember, a lot of them cannot speak out. And then half of the ones are Eastern European or from other countries, you know,

who got their visa to work in the U.S., who may still live here. And they also were introduced through their husbands, probably through Epstein, through that network. You know what it means? So they maybe got their jobs or they have means of not wanting to ruin their lives right now. And they're embarrassed or they're shameful. They don't want to come forward. And even to understand the part that they may have had in it, I think they would rather just. I mean, sometimes I question why I speak out.

It would have been much nicer if I had stayed quiet, you know. Probably. I would, it's been a lot over the last few years. It's a very brave thing though and it's, you know. Well, I realize that now because now we're getting, we're more in the political, you know, field of everything where people are behind us. But in the beginning, I was like, why am I speaking out? Like this is, why am I going through therapy, you know, and dealing with this?

It was a lot of shame and I lost, you know, best friends, partner, you know, parents, you know, through all of this. I've lost a lot of people who don't even support me, you know, and that has happened to a lot of survivors. You lost your parents through this? Well, I don't have like the support of my family. Yeah. Why not? I don't know. I mean, they knew. They knew that I knew Epstein during those years. He would send flowers to my house. Their address number was in the little black book. reporters used to call them all the time. My parents lived less than an hour away from Zora Ranch in New Mexico. They were aware of who this man was. I don't know. I think when it just comes to sexual abuse, a lot of people are just like, I don't want to deal with that. Maybe they have their

own issues around it and things they have to work out on their own. I'm not quite sure, but I have lost a lot of people, a lot of friends through this process, which is the reason, which is the whole reason why Julian is why I found the Survivor Sisters to begin with. Because when I started speaking out in 2020, after I started losing family and friends, I was like, well, who understands me then if my own family and friends don't want to? So I started reaching out to Virginia Giffray and the other survivors who spoke out in 2019 and before that. Those became my really good friends, those became my rock. You know, so that's the reason why it's every year I've built on, every year it's built on like this, you know, bravery is built on every year. It just didn't happen

like that, you know. That is very hard for me to process though, because I'm not a parent yet. I look forward to being one. I can't possibly understand what that's like until that happens. But obviously I have friends and family where they've experienced that and like I see through them what that is. And like once you bring that child into the world, if you were even a half decent parent, you would lay down your life for them. And so, you know, this is just me thinking about this,

but if my kid came to me, and I'm always hesitant to say, if I were blank, then I would blank. Because in a lot of these situations, you don't know. Yeah. And I'm going to be a bit of a hypocrite here because I feel like in this one I fucking know. If my kid came to me and said,

I don't care who it was, insert person here. abused me. Not only am I going to support them, they're going to have to drag my cold dead hands off of their cold dead body. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know, I don't, it doesn't process to me that your family would know

that you knew this guy and were around them and you would, as you said, discuss some of this stuff with them before and then you're brave enough to come forward and now they run away from them. Like, were you not close with your parents or something? That's not registering for me. Well, I for sure believe you. If anything happened to your child, you would definitely stand up for them.

I'm the same way with my kids. Anybody screws it. My kids. Those are my hearts right there. Nobody's messing with them. And they know my kids will tell you, like, I stand up for them in so many different ways when they're just like, Mom, back down. But I always stick up for them.

I think we come from maybe a different generation than, like parents or grandparents. They just were quiet about everything. And I think kids weren't supposed to speak up. You know, kids didn't feel comfortable to speak up. I saw this Mel Robbins podcast where she... Yeah, isn't she great. I just love her, but she was talking about when she was,

when she went through a sexual assault when she was young. And, you know, the psychologist, Gabor Matte. Yeah. Yeah, he was telling her. it's not really what happened to you. Of course, you know, it's awful what happened to you, but it's because you had no one to talk to when it happened. You couldn't go to your parents and tell them, you know?

And when that was happening to me in the early 2000s, I didn't have anyone. I didn't have anyone that I felt comfortable enough or safe enough to call up or go to and say, you know what, this person is doing things to me that I don't think is right and I don't understand it, but I need to talk to someone. I didn't have that.

And I feel like in that generation, especially in the early 2000s, I mean, this is not even that long ago. I know that I couldn't speak out to people about it. I didn't feel comfortable because we just didn't talk about it. So I think things are changing now. We've got TikTok now. I mean, anything happens to anybody now who's like under 25, they're on TikTok, spilling the beans. You know, in 2000 there wasn't TikTok. or there wasn't even like any way that I could be like getting pictures you know

or you know a selfie here to get to get incriminating evidence I didn't we didn't have that this is actually a really important greater point to you're making because the prime time of all these crimes and we can even look at ditty and stuff like that yeah it was happening during the 90s and 2000s and it's pre-socials media for the most part, pre like widespread internet 2.0. And it was a time where people were still separated from this. Yeah. People didn't start mainstreaming this till like 2010. It came out in 2007, but everyone started getting in 2010, 2011. So these people got used to a world where all they had to do was make sure they had their guy at page six on their side and they were good. Oh yeah.

yeah, they had control over the media and every outlet, everything that they didn't have to worry about. I don't think they thought that. I don't think they're smart enough to think that far ahead to know social media's, but really ruined it for all of them. It's all the people like you, podcasters, or just anybody at home who's just on their phone, just reporting everything they see, copying the files, putting it all out there. Now that we have that, that is why everyone is like, knows what's going on. That's the only reason why.

If this was literally 2010, not much. That's right. It's like I've always looked at it this way. If we discount MySpace for a second, which was like the pre-bootloader to the bootloader, Facebook went, started to go mainstream me in like 2007. It was around in 4, 0506, but it started to open up to the world in 2007. We're sitting here in 2026, which means that, think about a kid that was born in 2007, they're 19, and then think about your grandma who's on Facebook, who's 84.

They're the same age when it comes to the internet. They're both 19 years old. Yeah. So there's no one in society that is a senior citizen or a having lived the life and understood and seen the ups and downs, the mistakes, the good, the flaws and everything of the internet who exists. Yeah, but even like 2006 to 2017, for you to put this type of information out there on. on YouTube or Facebook. Of course. You have to still be like a creator to do that. Of course.

It's not even like today where anybody can just pick up there and pick up their phone and just give their opinions on things. Makes the point even stronger. Yeah, even stronger. Yeah, you'd have to be like a YouTuber back in 2015. And most of all weren't, you know. It's funny too though because you talk about these guys couldn't see ahead to this. And I agree with you.

It's so clear that they couldn't. And yet, like a lot of the, worlds that these guys come from they in everything else they did in their life they thought three four decades ahead oh sure yeah you know my guy alessie alman who works who's been with me forever he has his own channel on youtube he did an amazing documentary like tying together epstein to leon black to steve bannon and everything and if you look at like Cambridge Analytica and like the left right fear politics machines that came up online in 15 16 17 the money for that started in as far back as we can see, 1991 or 1992, which means it was probably before that.

So they're thinking 25 years ahead on that. But they can't think about the dude who goes like this. It goes, yo, fam, look at what I just saw on this motherfucker. Totally. Right? Oh, yeah. They didn't account for that happening. No, they didn't.

And that's really what exploded these files. That's right. Yeah. Now, you just got back from Dublin, right? And I don't know a lot about this yet. I told you we talked yesterday. And I was like, all right, let's save this for the podcast. But apparently, at least there and maybe some other places in Europe, there is some accountability that's being taken.

What do you know about that? Well, because I lived my first few years in England and then graduated high school in Belgium and spent half my life in Europe, I've done a lot more European press than most of survivors. I think do a lot of American press, but I do a lot of international press. just because I know that a lot of the, after I was a model, I had a, sorry, after I was a scout, an international scout for big agencies. And so I would travel a lot to Eastern European countries like Bratislava or Lithuania and Poland. And so I was still absorbed with this world. So I was seeing what was going on and happening. So I have like an understanding of, of Jeffrey's ties to that part of the world in the mulling industry.

And so whenever, and then also my story started on the island seeing Prince Andrew there, and my story ended in 2004 with a girlfriend that had a story about Prince Andrew. So, you know, I do a lot of press over there because of, you know, what I know. And so, yeah, I went to Dublin and did the late, late show and had a really great conversation, you know, about over there and met with some people in England and have been doing some press just to bring awareness and try to corroborate the stories of others over there. Mainly Virginia Jufre.

Yes. Rest in peace, by the way. That's tragic. She was very brave. I mean, she was really out there pushing it for years and years and years. Yeah, she was very brave. Definitely, definitely did some amazing things for representing the victims. But there were, who was it, if there's like a, was it someone in Norway has already been arrested?

And then my question for you was, are you hearing about like them doing investigations now in England and in Ireland on some of the people that they have tied there? Well, I mean, the justice departments in these countries in Europe and Scandinavia are very different from the United States. As we know in the U.S., they haven't done anything. But in Europe, they're investigating. Yeah. They're looking into whoever was in the following. for their country. They're asking for the files to do a further investigation. And I know they are in Ireland, I think Lithuania and Norway. Good. Yeah. So all these people that were mentioned in the files,

maybe they're innocent, maybe they're not, but at least look into it. Right? At least take that next step and call for the files for their country or flight logs or whatever and do your research. So I don't know. I love to see that these nations are doing what they should be doing. If enough of them do it, maybe it puts some pressure even on the big dog in the United States. If enough of them do it and then see results and their people, like the people of those countries, then get the press of it. And they're like, this, what? Yeah.

It's so crazy because in the U.S., there isn't really the empathy. I don't know why we're lacking. We're lacking so much empathy here. Even when I do media, I don't know if they're just told to be stone cold and have no feelings, but I just hate doing media in the U.S. And I've done quite a few of the major broadcast networks and things, and I just don't enjoy doing it. But when I go abroad, Ireland, the UK, Germany, Australia, you know, they're... They've been going in on this case forever.

No, they just, they go in. They care. They want to get the answers. And then they also want to do something about it. Right. So it's totally different. And they have empathy for your story and what you've gone through. And then that empathy feeds into, you know, connecting the dots and looking into who,

even in their prime ministers or people that are really important, you know, they will do the right thing. And they either resign or, you know, or take further measures. But at least they do something. It's always to do something. In the U.S., it's just like, oh, yeah, let's hear your story. Oh, that's good. Okay. Or that's great, you know.

But what else happens? What else happens after that? Oh, my God. What about off camera? Are they, like, once the cameras go off, or are they like a real human? No, yeah, they just always have an agenda. So they ask you questions and then you say one thing about Trump that's leading you to say something, then the headline is about that.

It's like, I didn't even talk about Trump. They, like, make you just to have a headline. And I've always said, you know, not say that he's guilty or not guilty. It's just that's not my agenda because I know there's so many other men that are involved that were abused. I know of many, many girls who have gone to that island and that are forced to have sex. Passport taken away and forced to have sex with somebody they do not want to have sex with. Passport taken away. They take your passport away.

There are girls that have tried to swim off that island. Where do they think they're going? I have no idea. But they're scared. You know? Yeah, I'll bet. They're scared. That's not what they were thinking of when they were naively.

going to an island. But I have girlfriends that were made to go into a room or in the middle of night. Somebody comes in and just has sex with them and leaves. It's really gross, to be honest with you. It's really gross. But, I mean, I've seen some of those names in the files, but until a survivor comes forward and says, you know, we're going to rally behind this and come forward, most likely of those men will just get away with it.

So I mean, I think sometimes like when you look at like content creators, there's people take themselves way too seriously and think it's way bigger than it is. It's like, dude, you're talking to a camera. It's not that big a deal. What I will say when it comes to a story like this that has released so much investigative files publicly for us to review is that when you look at all these shows put together and there's literally millions. if people can keep their eye on the ball with this and all review the same evidence that we all have a chance to review and do each of our little parts to keep it on the front burner, if you will. Maybe, maybe we can get 10% of what we deserve to get. I'd like 100%. But you know what I mean. It's hard not to be sin. I mean, you know better than anyone what I mean. It's hard not to be cynical.

Yeah, I mean, if the DOJ had just done their job, the FBI, the DOJ had just done their job and taken the people out of the files and investigated them, the survivors and the people would know you're doing something because we would see actual action happening, then they wouldn't have had to release the millions of files to the public. Right. But you have to remember, they don't care that the public sees all that. They know they're going to be like, oh, and disgusted by it for a few months, and then it's going to go away. You know, that's the least of their worries is giving that to the American people because they know nothing's going to happen from that.

What should have happened was when they had it for 15 years before they released it to us or 20 years, how long has it been? 25 years before they released it to us, they should have done something about it. Of course. You know, these calls have been coming in since the 90s, and the files only start from the early 2000s. They don't even go back to the 90s when the most depraved shit was happening. Yeah. I don't know. This is where it gets into speculation.

I have to say that because we'll never know. I mean, you didn't even come into contact with him until 01. So I guess you don't even know. 2000. 2000. You know, you talk about the 90s and stuff. Jeffrey Epstein in the 90s especially, you go back to the 80s with this for sure, but especially the 90s once he's like the man money-wise.

Yeah. He was very well known in the high-level New York socialite circles. But he was not known publicly at all. No, nobody knew him. When page six did the story in September 2002 about him taking Bill Clinton on his jet, then suddenly, who's this Jeffrey Epstein guy, then he brings in Vicki Ward in March 2003 to do this whole, like he liked the attention. And then he got known.

So it's like when I see these files begin then, I do wonder what kind of incompetence within every law enforcement agency and espionage agency we have known to man here in America might have occurred at many levels at least prior to that time. And now that you start to make that case, and I'm sure you ask yourself this a lot more than I do. but like, why do you let them cop to a plea of soliciting a prostitute? I think it was like a barely underage, like 17-year-old. And then, you know, he basically had a house arrest for all intents and purposes. Why there were, we had the whole, they had the whole case. Well, there were 43 accounts. That's right.

Of young girls who came forward and had the same exact stories of what was going on. Yeah, that sweetheart deal of just saying they were a prostitute. They weren't a prostitute. You know, so, well, I don't know. What I know of Jeffrey Epstein from back then is he did not want anyone knowing about what was going on. He was not public. Nobody knew about him, and that's the way that he liked it. I think he was furious when in 2002, page 6 did a story about him.

He did not want his name out there because he wanted to be able to be incognito and nobody really know what he was doing. And I think the more known he got, the more scared he was because he was supposed to be under the radar. That's interesting. Yeah, yeah, he was always under the radar. Any event you would ever see him at, he'd pop in and pop out. He was not a playboy. He was not in the limelight. You never saw pictures of him.

Of him. You never really saw girls around. I mean, around him like that. So he didn't like that. Vanity DeFair did the article about him. He was furious about that as well. furious after it came out, but he agreed to do it. He brought her over and did, that's, that's what I wonder if there's like a... Well, he had to do it, yeah. He had to do it. Why do you say

he had to do it? Well, because people are starting to understand about, you know, who he was. And so he felt like he had to, you know, just put it out, put it out there of what he was doing and more like a philanthropist and like, you know, just trying to clear the air of who he was without saying what he was really doing, you know, and his ties, you know, to people. So it was kind of on the surface. It wasn't like what we knew what we know now about him. Of course. Yeah. I never thought of it that way. Yeah, no, he didn't he did not want his name and who he was out there. Yeah. Because he would call a lot of us and been like, are you talking to the media, you talking to the reporters calling you? Don't say anything. Don't say anything.

Oh, we would. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I would, I would never have said anything back then. I mean, I only started speaking out because he died. Right. I would never. If he was alive today, I wouldn't even be here. Did you, and I want to get to your story in a second, and we could do that linearly, but in the years between 04 and when you last saw him and 2019 when he died, obviously, you know, you were abused. So there was compartmentalization of that that went on and everything. But did you live in a constant or more like subconscious features? of him? Maybe subconscious, but I think after I left New York and moved to Los Angeles in 2004,

I didn't have any contact with him. He was starting to be, like, found out, you know, the articles that were coming out, and he was being investigated. So I think he slowed down a little bit, I think, from 2004 to 2006. I think those were the years he slowed down because he definitely picked it back up later. But I just went on with my life. You know, I was married by 2006, you know, was pregnant by 2006. I just literally did not think about that man again.

And the stuff that I heard, like in the news, I just didn't read the news. And I kind of just didn't even want to go there, like kind of in my heart that he was involved with like underage girls. You know, someone who has put their hands on you and trying to think of him as a pedophile and stuff. It just really grossed me out. And they understand nobody really gave a shit back. then. It wasn't like a big news like it is now. So I just kind of went on with my life for the next 15 years and didn't really think that much of it. Yeah. You said you were born in England and I think you were telling me off cam that your father was in the military. So you traveled around Europe a lot

as a kid? Yeah. My father was a navigator in the Air Force. He went to Columbia and he studied electronic warfare, you know, he was in electronic warfare in the Air Force. And, you know, he was stationed at the Pentagon, and then we moved to Belgium where he worked at NATO. So, yeah, my dad worked on really- Quite a resume. Yeah, he worked on a really important, you know, high-profile things. I would always ask him about. He'd say, well, I'd tell you, but I'd have to kill you. So, like, I didn't really know so much about what was going on. My dad was, you know, he was a great father, you know, he taught me a lot about life and gave me a lot of really good morals and I did, you know, I had everything I ever wanted growing up, you know, you know, and then, you know,

graduated high school in Belgium and then it started modeling. So you were never in America, really? No, I was in America. Yeah, I lived in. How long were you in America as a child? Half my young child life. So, you know, I lived in Virginia when my dad was at the Pentagon. So, right, that would make sense. That's that one. So, but either way, like, was it, hard for you constantly having to pick up and go somewhere new and have all new friends. And I mean, you're clearly a very friendly person, but still like you have relationships with a ton of people. And then suddenly it's like, oh, we're going somewhere new again.

Was that difficult? Well, I hated it growing up. Every like two, three, four years we'd move somewhere different. But, you know, in hindsight, it was like the best thing it could happen to me, you know, because you just get adjusted. You go here, this new state in the U.S., and then you go to this country in Europe. And then you're back in the U.S., you know, and you're back in the U.S., you know, And then you're back and Europe.

And, you know, I have so many different friends in different places and just adapting to different types of people. And I've always had a very outgoing personality. I'm a definite extrovert, even though I have introverted moments where I definitely spend a lot of time by myself. I do a lot of self-care by myself. Go to the movies or have dinner by myself a lot, you know. But I'm an extrovert at heart. And I've always wanted to be in like the modeling and entertainment world. That was a big drive for me.

Even as a little girl. Oh, yeah, it was a huge. I was always that one in front of the camera, you know, doing all that stuff. So my father and my mother and father supported that. My mom put me in beauty pageants. You know, they took me to New York City at 16, 15, 16 years old to meet with the agencies, went into Ford models and elite models, you know, and then I was in a contest at 16 years old and flew to New York at 16 years old.

I went up to the top of the Trump Tower when I was so. When I was 16, I was just so crazy that one at Columbia, Columbus Circle, you know, and I was at the top of that looking down. Was it there in New York City? I was looking on your thing. Yeah, it's just off. Yeah, right. Just off the wall here.

You can't see it, but it's 57th Street up on Fifth Avenue, right? Yeah, yeah, 57th. No, not fifth. On the west side. Trumptown? Yeah, yeah, on the west side. Well, there's that one on fifth too, which is. Yeah, that's where he lives.

The Columbus Circle. Yeah. Yeah, right off the park. Oh, okay. I remember going up there and met like some country music star that I can't remember his name. But I remember looking out over New York like, oh, I'm going to live here one day. You know, so I was always really into just kind of like manifesting whatever I wanted. So kind of put it out there.

And then, you know, was in Belgium, graduate high school there. And I was working like in Brussels, Amsterdam and went to London and then moved to Miami in the late 90s. That's a switch up. It was awesome. I'll bet it was. Miami's, I like Miami for four days. It's a great town. But I feel like if I don't leave after four days, bad things will happen.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, now. But in the 90s, when you probably weren't even born yet. But like in the late 90s, it was like the heyday. All the stars were there. And it was like all the modeling agencies were there. It was really, really fun. Now, what was it like when you're 15, 16? Because now, like, you can look back on it as an adult,

have a way more understanding of the world. was it a would you describe it as somewhat of a normal experience dealing with the modeling agencies or was there anything that now you're like well that's kind of weird that they did it this way or that way you're kidding me like everything is kind of weird now when I look back on it yeah joe worked in it as well he knows what you're talking about yeah yeah I mean it was just accepted the way that people were back then and you have to understand the malling industry back then was you had to be a certain height and weight and look you had to be kind of special and way. It's just different now. Now it's like all different types and anyone can model. But like back

then it was very serious. So you had to take it, you know, it was a career and you had to travel around the world. I went to Greece. I went to Cape Town and like build your book for three or four months, you know. But yeah, in the States, you definitely notice that there were older agents that would take you to parties and you would be around, you know, younger girls, older men. That was so normal. You know, maybe they would give you drugs and alcohol. It was very normal. Even at 15, 16? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. You can get in the clubs. Well, that's crazy. Yeah. It was just the way it was, you know. So when I finally met Epstein, it was like, oh, this is kind of how it is. I mean, the women agents would do the same thing. Would take you to these dinner parties with old men all the time.

Like, don't you have anybody? Like our age. Yeah, but at 15, 16 is crazy. Well, the models back then started around 13, 14, 15, 16. Oh, my God. We all started really young. Nowadays, they don't start until maybe 17, 18, 19, 20. It's older now.

Still, like, it's weird no matter what, but like the blatancy, I don't think that's a word, but you know what I mean, of having a 14, 15-year-old at dinner with old rich dudes or whatever, because they're the new model. And then you wonder how something like Epstein happens, like. Yeah, exactly. It was just the time. Did your parents know that was happening? Um, no, probably not. They never asked me.

And they never asked you about that. No, I think everyone, all the parents, I mean, didn't know. I mean, I know of many parents that would line up their girls to meet with John Casablanca at elite models. And when they go into the room, they were sexually assaulted before they came out, you know, to go back with their parents. John Casablanca, who was tall and good-looking and charming and everybody loved him. Yeah, Gerald Marie, Jean-Loup Bernal. You know, all these big agents who, you know, they were assaulting a lot of girls. I mean, this is a known fact.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And it's amazing that it took until like Harvey Weinstein in 2017 for people to realize, oh, there's a casting couch in all these industry. Like it just. Yeah. Unfortunately, when you have that power, someone like Harvey, it's like, oh, you really want this movie role. Show me how bad you want it.

Right. Like this whole thing is just, that's why I got out of the acting. world. I just, I couldn't even handle it how bad it was. When did you get into that? Well, I was always like a young actress doing acting classes since I was like, you know, 19 or so. Okay. I mean, my first film was with Oliver Stone. I booked a role. No kidding. 98, 99. What movie? Right out of high school. I started auditioning in Miami, any given Sunday. Oh, you were in any given Sunday? Yeah, I was opposite Jamie Fox. No shit. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great movie. Yeah, it was a great movie.

Really great cast. The six inches in front of your face. Let's go do it a long time. Wow, yeah, you're good. And then. I was like, that would suck. Don't ever do that. It was a good movie.

But it was a great cast, you know, but I started realizing right off the bat, oh, shoot, this is how it works. You know. Yeah. I mean, Jeffrey would send us on auditions with big, big movie directors. Yeah, and we're seeing that. And we're seeing even darker stuff than that in emails. Just sending girls to gynecologists, skincare people.

Yeah. Oh, she doesn't get out of high school until 4 p.m. or something. Yeah. Yeah. So looking back on it when you were 15, 16, so when you come to New York for the first time, how long, it sounds like you were alone when you went there. You stay there alone at 15, 16. 16. So they put you up at a hotel.

Yeah. You have your own room. How long, what was the longest time you were there by yourself? Well, that time I was just there for a week. So you should go for a week or two at a time. Yeah. That's like a week or two in New York City without your parents and everything. everything.

Do you remember, looking back on it, were there things that happened there, too? Well, that's normal for, to bring a 16, 15, 16, 17 year old, yeah, to New York City by yourself. They put you in a mall apartment and then you go out with the promoters and you go to the nightclubs and you get the VIP room and you're around all these celebrities. That's, that was pretty normal. Yeah, I mean, you were there hanging out with Leo next to you and all sorts of celebrities. and things since we were really young. Did you ever say I'm 15? I mean, I don't think anybody really cared, like, that we were, that girls were underage

or I don't think people really cared. I think it was just kind of accepted, yeah. That's hard to, like, that's really hard for me, process. I mean, I know this stuff happens, but the normalcy with which you're talking about, Oh, yeah, they all did it. 13, 14, 15. Yeah, you know, you come for a week. You stay without your parents.

They take you to clubs and promote it. It's like, yeah, but you're supposed to be protected. Like, who's protecting you? Right. You know what I mean? And so you feel like you're protected. I'm in a mall apartment. Okay, okay, I go out with these clubs.

They want you to socialize your agent. You're usually with you. You know what I mean? I mean, agents would give you some coke or something in the bathroom. Like, agents would give you during that time, not now. But during that time, you know, it was definitely things were more accepted. Then you would go to your agency and you would get your castings for the day and you'd run around to castings, literally two hotel rooms were

those photographers. Like you would go to hotels and meet with photographers at hotels. It was the strangest thing. And then they would book you on jobs where you're flying to Hawaii or the Caribbean, you know, for a few days shooting with these people, you know. And I mean, there's a lot of women there and most of the time nothing really happened. But every now and then you were with a photographer who wouldn't leave you alone, you know. So there was a lot of these things going on. Did you ever feel pressured to have to hook up with somebody? I mean, I guess I would say yes. I mean, I think I felt pressured quite a few times.

Yeah, I would say, yeah, definitely yes. I think any model would say yes. And on many occasions probably happen to most models and actresses. And then you would go back to your agency and tell them, you know, so-and-so, this French photographer wouldn't keep his hands off me, he was touching my nipples or like, you know, you know, putting his hand by my private, like things, just, you know, little things like that. You know, little, well, I mean, I would say something like that to an agent and they were just

like, oh, it's just how he is, you know, things like that, you know, so things were just kind of accepted. Yeah, and then when I became a Ford model, I mean, Katie Ford used to take us to these parties and these charity events where you're all these girls at a table and then all the rich older men would sit next to you and you'd have that conversation with them, you know. And she would tell you how to like, yeah, use your knife. I already knew how to do this. But like use your knife and fork, you know, elbows in the table. Like they would want you to be like a little lady, you know, while you're just having

conversation with like a 60-year-old man. It's like, I don't know if they ever stopped to think that that's probably not what young girls really want to do to hang out with these old guys. But you're useful to them to do that. That's how they look at it. Yeah, that's how because they're friends. They're just, you know. You're just like pawns for them.

I mean, you don't really matter to them. Yeah, there's a couple things clock and for me. Number one, what you're describing right here, I'll be conservative and say it's not much different from some form of sex trafficking. And if I want to be really just off the cuff with this, it sounds like sex trafficking with me. I'll let people in the comments decide that on their own, I guess.

But the second thing is the years where this is happening to you psychologically, 15, 16, 17, 18, you're getting desensitized to all of it. it is being ingrained in you as a young girl that this is normal. This is how things work. Oh, you want to have this career and whatever. You have talent. Lisa, you'll be great at this, but you've got to do these things. And it's what I look.

Everyone else is doing it too. Yeah, I guess in a way. It's kind of like that. I mean, no one really says it like that. But I think you kind of have to play along a little bit. You learn pretty quickly when you speak out. or that nobody really cares or you should be quiet. Yeah.

Did your parents ask you about anything that ever happened when you were away from them for a week at a time in New York, ever? No. After I left home, I was by myself living in countries for three to four or five months by myself in countries. I lived in Greece by myself for three months. I lived in South Africa for six months by myself. So I was traveling. And it was pretty normal up until maybe like five or ten years ago to travel at a teenager to these countries by yourself. I mean, I saw all crazy shit happening like in Greece and other places.

You know, yeah, just weird, weird stuff. And usually involved like drugs or alcohol or, you know, photographers or, you know, clients or crew, you know, just expecting girls to do certain things. I mean, you would push back as much as you can, but I think you could find pretty quickly that the more you push back on things, the more you're not really accepted or your career doesn't advance. I think it's the reason why so many people leave the malling business and especially the acting business. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, and it does seem you see it all the time. And like you were saying earlier, it's, you know, we're talking about abuse of girls and boys and everything. Yeah, don't get me started on the boys. It's pretty bad. Within Hollywood that you've seen? In the modeling business.

In the modeling business. I've heard a lot about that too. Yeah, Abercrombie boys, yeah. And they got to, you put someone who's got like a dream to be able to get to this point or do this thing and then they're young and they get sent somewhere far away to do it.

And then it's like, well, you just got to do this thing and you'll get it. And their mind is groomed to, be like, well, I guess I just got to... Yeah, it's a really sad business in that way. I knew a lot of male models who went for like big, big castings with huge photographers and were assaulted, you know, and like if you didn't do something and you don't get the job. And I knew boys that walked away from it.

It's like, F you, I'm not doing that. And would walk away and just give up on their careers, you know. And then I knew some who, you know, had a lot of shame around, you know, things that they did or... didn't say no too or yeah yeah that's what that's why i've always told you when i speak out it's always always for the men too it's not just for women right yeah well is mom now you wanted to become a model so you put yourself in a position and do it but then once you were in it you're around all these people from the business the masters of the universe if you will yeah what was modeling scouting like back then that's always a term like you said you did it as well we can get to that but

Like whenever I hear that, I'm like, do you just like walk on the street and watch people pass by and go, ah, she's good looking? Ah, he's good looking. Let's talk to him. Like, is that, was that what it was back then? I mean, back then, not really. I mean, you do some street scouting. Obviously, if you see someone who has potential, you go up to them and, you know, you hand them your card. And you always tell them for their mother or father to contact you.

And then you say, you know, then they come into the agency with a mother or father. That's how I've always operated. I mean, obviously there's scouts out there who don't operate like that. I mean, for me, I loved it. I really loved it. I would travel to all these countries, and I would actually meet with agencies. So in each country of the world, let's say Sao Paulo, Warsaw, you know, I went to Pradesh, like Croatia, I mean, China, no matter what country.

You went to China, too? Yeah. No matter what country you go to, there's many agencies within those countries. And so you go as a scout, you meet with that agency, and one by one, the models come in. And I'm a woman and a mom now, but I think I was a mom then when I was a scout, yeah. So when I would sit there with the models, you'd evaluate them, take their photos and videos, and then you send it to the New York agency. And whoever they like, you know, they organize the visas and they come work in the U.S.

That's how it works. Now, how these men were doing it was a little different. They would have a casting private the hotel, you know, and, You know, if you want a model, maybe the ones that probably didn't have potential, maybe they would do certain things. So there was this underground of abuse and assaults that were happening just right at that level, even before they even got to New York. you know and then they were sending them to the people in new york like mc square jean luke bernel's agency you know that was epstein was funding that agency you know and bringing them there and poor things you know having to do things like live in the mall apartments or have to go see

epstein or others and they were getting assaulted left and right you know i mean i mean this is the higher level of modeling i mean even like our biggest agencies um in new york that even the women that own these agencies and that were the director of these agencies in the files, there's emails of them sending their girls to Epstein. I mean, in Paris, there was an agency that just came out, too, that was also saying, oh, I got a nice 16-year-old Brazilian, can I send her over to you? You know, I'm sending them over to Jeffrey. I'm like, why are these women sending young girls to Epstein? Do they not know why? Like, why would this older man want to see these girls? Like, do they not even think about it or is it their relationship with them too important or the money

that he gives their agencies or whatever it is the cloud i don't know why is it so important that these older women are sending young women and teenagers to epstein they don't do they even know that epstein is now taking these girls putting them in his orbit and then trafficking them out the term that keeps coming in mind as i read these files and reading the same things that you're describing right now of which there are that I know of hundreds of examples like this which means there's probably thousands I just think the term vampire it's like this the people who do these types of things to young girls young boys you know or just take advantage of anyone sexually regardless of age period there's a there's a shame that with their power they put into that act

that is symbolically to me the same thing as vampires biting someone's neck in any, you know, fictional fantasy story you've read. And the idea is like it's the ultimate control. Control and I own a piece of your soul. Yeah, exactly. Right? I own you. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. So when they send, what did you say? Example was a 16-year-old, I have a 16-year-old Brazilian for you. No name, just the age and the ethnicity. Go take a piece of her soul. Then she'll do whatever we want. That's how it reads to me. Yeah, but isn't it funny that you have these Epstein files?

And it's like you're expecting to see, you know, these men who are abusing young women and teenagers, let's say. We've kind of all known about that for a long time now. I just find it really kind of peculiar that now we're seeing emails between men of talking about like a seven-year-old. Like, why would you not think just from seeing emails that have to do with a child, why would you not investigate that?

Would that not tell you that there's something really, really, really wrong in the minds of some of these men? Well, look, you're... Seven. Do you know what a seven-year-old looks like? You're talking about the most obvious example in the world, but go all the way to the top of the pyramid here. How about the fact that the man who owns the company that among his holding companies has the biggest female lingerie brand in the world who gave all the wealth that we know of?

I shouldn't say a large portion of the wealth that we know of personally to Jeffrey Epstein and gave him power of attorney and shared businesses and trust with him that sold houses to Howard Lutniks of the world, by the way. you know, fuck you Howard. But, you know, how about the fact that that guy was still covered up in these documents until Rokana came out and said his name? He was still never arrested. He was never interviewed. To this day, they're about to go depose him at his mansion, by the way, on his turf and some congressmen in Ohio. But he was never even questioned by the DOJ. And yet in the documents themselves was listed back when Jeffrey was arrested as a co-conspirator. So you talk about, of course, the obvious examples, oh, they're talking about a seven-year-old right here. Yeah, I think we should investigate that. But the dude at the top of it with him or that

we know of us, the top, gets to live in America with all his billions of dollars, run all his companies for free, no problem, it doesn't even get questioned. Meaning what the point I'm getting at, Lisa, is it is much deeper than just all the horrible individual examples we see. It's like if you go to dig a hole and your goal is to dig a 30 foot hole, well, if you don't dig the first foot, you're never going to go to 30 feet. We're talking about things where we should be going to 30 feet. They haven't gone to the first foot. Oh, I agree. Mm-hmm. You dig really, really deep. Yeah. But you cynically seem to share my opinion that someone like that probably won't end up in prison.

Yeah. Too much money. Is that all it is? Well, how do you know that they haven't called them in and said, showed them all the unredacted files? I mean, like, this is what we got on you. And it's pretty, pretty depraved, you know? And maybe he just paid him off. I mean, there's got to be some type of leverage here.

I just don't believe for a second that you have that much information on an individual and they haven't tried to do something. I agree with you, but not on the method. As much money. Can we look up Les Wexner's net worth? So not on the money, but maybe some other leverage? Yeah, what do you think it is? Yeah, to make the point.

I always think it's about money, but what do you think it's about? I mean, there's money in all this, to be clear. I shouldn't. That's unfair me to dismiss that. I'm not trying to do that. But what's your worth ballpark? 9.1 billion. All due respect to is 9.1 billion. That's a shit-stained ashtray money when you're talking about the United States government, which in debt alone has, what is it, I don't know, 38 trillion, whatever it is. Guys like that, guys like Jeffrey Epstein, who gets a sweetheart deal like he did in 2008 after you said it was no any abuse, 43 women on women, girls, underage, 12, 13, 14-year-girls on record and gets basically nothing for it.

their leverage goes well beyond money. Yeah. It's information. It's dirt. And it's on people. Like, there are, he had, I don't know if you ever had a chance to, like, look and see this in the years that you were around him. But, because, I mean, the whole point was it was hidden. But he would have 80 cameras in one room.

If, like, this thing right here, if this were sitting on his table, it would have, like, a hidden camera in it. I know. I knew he had cameras everywhere And you could see some of them No, no But you knew it No, I never saw them He had showed me the room once

With all the Monitors In New York What was the context do you see in that room Was he like I just want to show you something That was the thing about Epstein He was very much like very cheeky about things He liked to show these things off

He'd like to let you know on his famous friends, billionaire's friends, little secrets about them. He would tell you little things. He would laugh about things. Yeah, he always had this little grin on his face. I think that was after he, I don't know if he, to say the word, trusted me.

But these were the conversations I would have with him. I mean, because I was very curious. I've always been really curious about things that I would always ask. But yeah, no, he had showed it to me once. I knew, I knew, but I don't. I don't think he hid that from, a lot of people, except for maybe the powerful men that were coming over.

Like, how big is this room that you're talking about? A little smaller than this room. This is a big room. This is 18 by 14 and a half. So maybe like a 15 by 12 kind of deal. Something like that. Just the room, yeah, where you, someone who sits at these desks around it and then all these screens.

So someone's in there sitting at the desk watching. and would you see like I'll be talking like 60 screens gosh I don't know how many I'm sorry that's really specific 30 or less okay half of that or less yeah and then there's all kinds of mobile cameras and stuff that he has that you don't see in there well this is the best technology so people aren't coming in thinking you're coming over for business with Epstein I'm sure he has a really good business you know and they're fascinated by him he's really nice intelligent. He's, he's fun to be around. I'm sure all these people really liked hanging around him. You know, then he says, surprise, you know, I have like a little, you know, 15 year old here, you know,

and maybe some say no, no, I'm married or no, that's gross. I don't know. But then some are like, what? Just what? I can just go and, yeah, they go into a room and then the 15 year old goes in there and does whatever, and then they leave. Then he has it on a camera, you know? We can blackmail you very easily with that. I mean, that's what Virginia was doing, underage. with many many men yeah that's that's the thing about him that he was um unfortunately well aware of and very good at it's even a layer below that where you just talked about is when he really gets someone but he knew because of how dirty and radioactive he was because of the shit he was around that all and gilene knew this too all they had to do

do was just getting a picture with you somewhere. Something that's not public, right? Someone's got it on their camera roll somewhere. Just you with a picture with them. And forever, you're gonna be like, how well did you know that guy if you're someone else, right? Yeah, because if Epstein's protecting these people, he would never have let Virginia take that picture with her camera,

have her with Prince Andrew. I mean, Galane is standing just right there. It's almost just like, like, like, It's a sinister picture. Yeah, I know. But, I mean, if he was really protecting Prince Andrew, former Prince Andrew, he would have said no picture. Right. But that wasn't the point.

He was a target. Exactly. Everybody was a target. And now you can see that in the emails. Oh, you can see it in the emails for sure. And there was a different tone with, at least from the emails I've reviewed with Elon Musk. When you see those emails that he would send to Elon, they would. were very obsequious.

Yeah, he was just like kind of like playing around with him, what's gonna be there, like trying to find out information. No, no, no, I'm sorry, I should explain that better. Jeffrey, that's what Elon was doing. Oh. Jeffrey was very like, trying to get him, yeah. Yeah, that would have been a good one for him to get, but he never got Elon.

He never got him, which- Well, Elon, do you know that he recently just said that any survivor that wants to name a name of their abuser, if the abuser comes forward and tries to do a defamation lawsuit, that he'll pay for it. He'll pay for their law fees. Good for him. And I hope to see that.

I do hope to see that too. That's good for him. That means he's not on their side. Again, if you have nothing to hide, then you should act like that. And you should, and because that was the thing. Like when they came out, he'd always said, like, release the files. I never knew this guy.

Never anything to do with him. It's like, well, you were emailing with him. That's what I had to say was sketchy because Elon is personally answering these emails. It wasn't even like an assistant or something. It would be like same day. And it's like, well, you probably should have told us you were doing that. But it does appear from what we can see that he never got him to the island. He did meet him a couple times.

And trust me, if he wanted to go to that island and if he really wanted to be around all that, he would have went. But he didn't go for whatever reason. Yeah. And I, that would be, that's the kind of thing you need, though. Someone extreme, unfortunately, you got to fight fire with fire. Just the reality. Someone with extreme power like that saying to the people that are supposed to be powerless, like, hey, yeah, you can be on my team for this. Yeah.

You have legal problems? I got you. Les Wexner has no money compared to me. Yeah. Right. That's good. But, you know, you mentioned like Jeffrey being affable to be around or whatever it was. Like he's like kind of friendly and charming in that way.

Yeah, I think most people wanted to be around him. Right. It's also, he was almost born with a little smirk on his face. Yeah, he was a little smirk. Right? My stomach just turns just thinking about it. And now you also have a guy who's like there were people, there's so many people who are just quick to say,

oh, this guy was really dumb and whatever. And when I hear him talk about science on the limited tapes we have, I think he is out kicking his coverage on that and being a little Charlotteistening for sure. Right. But when I hear him talk about finance, he bumbles around, but like it's clocking. He knows what's going on there. He's not dumb. And the thing is, when you kind of have that Coney Island accent, people underestimate you.

I got, this is the fun guy. And then they don't realize like, oh, just dude a shark. Yeah. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. Like he had that. package to be able to make you feel like... To me, there has to be some sort of extreme intelligence to pull all this off.

Right. That people pick up on. Right. I mean, why would those types of men want to be around him if he wasn't brilliant in some way? Yes. Because they didn't even know that before they'd meet with him. Probably not. Before they'd get to know him.

A lot of them didn't know that, you know? No, because Jeffrey's not going to put that out there until he knows who's going to, you know, be playing. Yeah, yeah. That's why when I hear a lot of these guys in the years since it's come out, be like, I knew he was a charlatan right away. I'm like, you don't need to say that. It's okay if you, I know you're a smart guy. It's okay if you didn't think that. Yeah.

Like not clearly, you and all these people went in there with them before there were women around in some cases. Like, you must have thought there was a there there and that's, oh, that part is okay to admit. Yeah. But like, just be fucking frank about it. Don't try to act like, oh, I knew it the whole time. Well, then why did you fucking meet with them 40 times? Yeah, exactly. It's frustrating.

It's frustrating. But let's get to it because we haven't gone there yet. We've been talking about them. Obviously, you spent some time around them. But what was the context of you first meeting, Jeffrey? And it was in 2000, you said. That was a young model. Had worked my way around, you know, European countries in South Africa, Miami.

me and then I found myself, you know, moving to New York City. And, you know, I was working with this model agency called Q models. They're still around great agency. And booked a job for a cover of a magazine and a spread and booked it with this Easter European model. And so we flew to Tortolas in the British West Indies. It's the next to little St. James and St. John's in that area. And, you know, did the photo shoot for a few days.

And then the clients were like, you got a day off. You know, you guys can do whatever you want to do. And we were on this little tiny island. So, you know, the girl that I was booked with, she was like, you know, I have a friend who owns an island nearby. His name is Jeffrey. And he helped me to get my visa to work in the U.S. He's been really great.

He's like a mentor to me. But anyway, you know, he said that we can go to his island, you know, just hang out there for the day. And so the client said we could go. This is really strange British clients. And so a boat was sent for us. We just got on that boat and we went over to, you know, Little St. James. What kind of boat?

It was just a little boat. It wasn't anything fancy because it was not that far away that I went. You know, so, I mean, it was not that far away. So we got on this little boat. We went over to Little St. James. And then we just hung out there for the day, like she said. We were just going to hang out, didn't see or meet Epstein, you know, for a while. I just hung out with the other girls.

Now, I always remember there was two other girls there, but since the girls have spoken out and are connecting that they were also on the island, I've understood now there was other girls there. But I only remember two of them. So, like we were playing in the pool, myself, the Eastern European girl, and two other girls. They were all blonde.

And there was an older man in the pool too. And he was just like hanging out with us, but he was really just like kind of frolicking and canoodling with one of the other young girls. And so I just observed that. How old are we talking? I don't know. I mean, I don't know.

When you're in your early 20s, everybody looks old. I would think 40s, late 40s maybe at that time. I just knew he was like my dad's age. Yeah. Yeah. If we take one step back for a sec just when you first got onto the island, you dock, you get off like, do you see the temple first? Do you see?

What do you see? The temple. Whatever that thing was. No, I didn't see the temple or anything like that first. No, I think it was farther back. I think going up to the island, I could see like the structures and stuff. And I thought, wow, it was really beautiful. I remember we're not thinking too hard about everything back then.

So it just saw a beautiful island and definitely saw there wasn't too many structures on the island. You know, just some buildings. And, you know, it was really, I just remember it was like, like a really exotic, gorgeous island. And the pool was really pretty. And who took you back to the pool? Like when you get onto the island, who receives you? Oh, that's a good question.

I don't know who receives us. I'm guessing it had to have been the other young girls. I think it was the other young girls. There was always young girls on the island. So like there was a couple girls that greeted us and brought us in. All I saw were young girls that I was hanging out with while I was there. I only observed an older man who was in the pool for a little while, but he wasn't with us for most of the day. He just was in the pool for a little while.

Then he left. And then we were all just hanging out around the pool. Then we went into the room just to get dressed, you know, for dinner that evening. And then we went to this really long table on the main house and sat down at the table with the other girls there. and that's when I met Epstein. And he walked in and said hello and sat down right next to me. And he just started asking me a bunch of questions, you know, about like my dreams and ambitions and like what I was doing and where I had traveled.

And I was just telling him, you know, about, you know, my life and what I was really into and things like that. And we talked to bed. And I had, the one thing that really sticks out to me, I had lived in England growing up, and so I was telling him about living in Oxford. And, you know, he had said he'd been there and knew a lot about Oxford, so we talked about that. And he had asked me if I wanted to meet a prince. And so I was looking at the other girls like, what, a prince? And in that moment, the gentleman from the pool walked up,

and he was dressed like he was leaving. So he said goodbye to everyone, and he said hello to me. And then he was brief, and then he just left. So after the, that, I was like, oh, that's kind of cool. I met a prince. That was Prince Andrews in the pool. Former Prince Andrew. Former Prince Andrew. Then he was, yes. So I, you know, I had definitely seen a prince on the island, didn't really think that much of it. And then we were trying to leave, you know, to go on the boat, to go back to the other island because we were supposed to get back because we had to work, you know. But then it was getting dark in Jefferson. he said, oh, you can't leave. You have to stay on the, you have to stay here tonight.

And so. How did he say it? Well, he just was like, oh, well, it's getting dark. You guys can't leave. Yeah, we can't send the boat back. So he couldn't send the boat back for us to leave on. So I didn't, I didn't really think anything of it. I just thought, okay, well, I guess we'll just stay here. Um, so we went to that room. When I remember there was like an outdoor shower and we got ready for bed and, and I was just hanging out with the other girl in the bed and we were just like chatting and stuff and I had known her like from my agency you know I'd seen her around and stuff so um I felt really comfortable with her and safe with her um and then one of the other girls knocked on the door

and was like you know Jeffrey's ready for his massage let's go and I was just like huh what do you mean a massage and she's just like oh well you know Jeffrey likes massages and then the Polish girl that brought me was like oh yeah well I'm sorry Lisa, I didn't think that he was going to want to do a massage with you. But, you know, he likes to do these massages, you know. She was like, you can just follow what I do. And then we kind of argued a little bit, like, you go do the massage. And then I turned to the girl, knocked on the door and was like, do I have to?

And she was like, yeah, you have to. He said you have to. So I was just like, okay. So I just went with the other girls and walked across the island to his bedroom area where, you know, we walked in. and there was a real massage table and he was laying on the massage table naked. I think it was like a towel.

No towel. Well, there was kind of a towel on him but you can see he was naked. He's just lying there. Yeah, he's lying there and then... How long was the walk between where you were and that, because you're outside? I don't know. It felt like forever. Right. Because at that point things had taken a different turn because I just thought we were there to hang out on the island and we were going to go back to the clients and back to our safe job.

but I didn't expect to do a massage. I mean, first of all, I don't even know how to do a massage. So the whole thing just seemed really weird. And I could see on the look on their faces, that probably wasn't a good thing. So I just was in the room. And so it turned out to be a real massage where I remember learning real massage techniques,

like how to like massage the back. teaching you. He is teaching me and how to close my eyes and give the massage. I remember all that. Because he definitely directed us throughout. He definitely likes massages. You know, he hired masseuses and all that stuff. So he's probably trying to see if I could be a really good massage. Musus, you know, maybe to hire me later. I don't know. But he definitely wanted me to do a real massage and the other girl. So we did a real massage like on his back and shoulders. But then that's when everything was done. The massage was done. And that's when he flipped over and that's when he wanted to play with himself and look at our bodies and take our shirts

off and and I just looked at the other girl and we kind of just had this thing where we were just like frozen like this and we just kind of just did what what he said and he was touching us kind of aggressively and it turned into a it turned into an assault between her and I and that was just ended. It just ended after that pretty quickly and we just kind of ran out of there. When that, when he first turns over and any questions, you don't want to answer here, you don't have the answer. We can get off this. And like you realize this is taking a very, very dark turn. Did you, you said you looked at the other girl like did, did time stop and did you freeze at all? Or was it, you went in?

to some form of like autopilot like just get through this well in hindsight she knew him and obviously since she got her visa through him she probably has done these massages before so it was a thing where I was looking at her and she kind of held my hand in a way of like like don't leave like if I was like to turn to run out of there she was like holding my hand too and like helping me just like to get through it and so I just kind of looked at her and just relied on her just to, you know, massage this dude and get out of there. But his demeanor changed. He wasn't like this friendly, mentor-type person anymore.

Now he was a little dark and he just like kind of got off on us young girls, you know? So it was kind of like that nasty grin he had, that sinister little grin he had of just trying to just get off and do what he. I mean, he was literally getting off. So we just had to just deal with it. it until like he was done and then we just literally ran out of there. Did he look you in the eyes at all? Mm-hmm. What did you see when you make eye contact with him?

Well, I know that look with him, so it was a darker, it was definitely a dark look. He was definitely, um, it wasn't the same person as before. It's definitely a shift in his personality. Form of ownership kind of thing. Yeah. in a form of like getting off on your fear. Mm-hmm. I've heard a lot of these accounts from victims who've been brave enough to speak out over the years and, you know, young girls who've talked about it.

And I don't know, like I always, you can't understand it at all if you're not there. Like, you get it. But I get it now. You get it now. Well, because it's never just about a sexual assault. It's not really about sex. sex. It's really about controlling me. So what I saw earlier was a very powerful figure, royalty on his island. And if he had just let me go without assaulting me, I can go run my mouth

or whoever. But controlling me in that way of a sexual assault is like, no, you're going to shut up. You're not going to say anything because now you have a secret and now you did something bad. So it's in a way of making me feel like I did something wrong. So now I have to deal with shame and not the fact that I saw. So if I tell people, then it might be like, oh, then I have to tell what else happened on that island. So now when I left the island, I didn't want to tell anybody about anything to do with the island. So the salts are usually to keep your mouth shut. People have to understand that.

The salt that he was doing to all the young girls was to keep you quiet. It wasn't to just get off on you, you know. Our secret. You're not allowed to say anything. Yeah. Yeah, because, I mean, I didn't see it like that then when I, I mean, dawn broke and we got on that boat. I never went back to the island again. I got as clear as way as I could.

But also something bad had happened in the island that now that's what was in my mind. I didn't give her a rat's ass about seeing a prince on the island. I never really thought about that until a couple of years later when another incident happened. You know, so I didn't really think so much. Honestly, when I started telling my story at first, I didn't really even. a lot of times even bring up the fact that I saw him on the island because it wasn't the most important thing that happened to me. You know, it was only another girlfriend was like, you know,

that prince was on the island. And I'm like, yeah, but she was like, that's really important that that prince was on the island. And to me, it never was any importance, really, until 2019 when Virginia Jufre spoke out. Right. I mean, yeah, because your experience is on an awful personal level. I just, that, that seizing of power exchange is just so dark to think about because it's like a,

the way you describe it, it's almost like this telepathic messaging that happens that that's like, I got you. Yeah, no, it's a good way of describing it. Yeah, that telepathic thing of just like, yeah, and you, I mean, I think that's like that with most serial predators and abusers is that sexual exchange really isn't about sex. It's really just about this control they have over you. You know, because it's filled with the shame they know. They put that shame on you. Yeah. You know. And you said it was relatively quickly you used that word, but is that just you thinking it sped up or was, might you have been in there for a while?

Hmm. No, I don't think it was that long. I don't think it was long. Well, the massage was longer, I think, than the salt. The salt was very aggressive. And he uses tools. He uses tools. A lot of his assault on the same M.O. He uses as he uses like vibrators and things.

Were you ever in pain? Like very physical pain? Yeah, it didn't feel good. Yeah. I had never used something like that before. I mean, I have a lot of trauma about those things. Yeah. You know, so now, even so, that's not my thing.

Do you remember when it was, that part was over, did he like... Discarge you? Yeah, do you say you can go? It's discarding, yeah. Or did he not even say anything? Well, there's no romanticizing anything, so it's definitely discarding. Okay, like done. Bye.

choice. I don't know if that. I can't remember exactly what he said. But I know that's how he was. Do you remember the walk back to your room? The walk, you mean the run? The run. Yeah, it was kind of like a run back. What I remember most was staying up all night and staring at the ceiling and like literally in fear of he was going to come back or there was going to be another knock on the door or there's going to be another request for massage or there was going to be a flat out assault and just jump in the bed. I don't know what was going to happen. It was just scary. It was just scary just to think that I was like trapped on an island. Like how the fuck did I even get on this island? What am I even doing here? You know? And not even being able to really talk about it with the girl, you know,

the girl brought me. There was no discussion at all. Not really. Not really. Just more of an apology. Like, I'm sorry. She said that? Well, I think she thought, because her knowing of Epstein, you have to understand the type of people that he's around and that type of purity they love and the type of blue blood they love is very white-skinned, blue-eyed and blonde hair and thing. And all the girls look like that. And I'm like this exotic girl, you know, even though I'd grown up like in Europe and things. You know, my mother was like Indian background. I'm Italian and like Scottish and West Indian.

I'm like this multicultural girl. That's how I saw myself. And so I saw myself as kind of being a little bit different than these other girls. Like I looked a little bit different. So I started thinking in my mind, well, maybe he just wanted to do that to me because I was different. I don't know. And maybe she brought me thinking that he wasn't going to do anything to me. Why would he?

Why would he do anything to her? Because he likes this type. So I think she thought I was safe. And maybe she would have to do a massage, you know, not me. I don't think they thought that he would want me because when he asked me to go do it when the girls came, it was like they were like,

you have to go do it. He said you. I want to come back to that girl specifically in a second, but I'm thinking of a more extreme example that was around Jeffrey that I would love your analysis on. What do you think of someone like Sarah Kellynne Vickers who, at least from what I'm able to see, was someone who seemed to have been abused by him and brought in and groomed and then eventually

becomes order follower who is bringing in other women allegedly, I guess I have to say publicly, but you know what I mean, bringing in other women for him to abuse. What do you think of someone like that who started on the one side and ended up on the other? Do you have any empathy for them whatsoever. Absolutely. You do. Absolutely. 100% I do. If she was assaulted and groomed, then she was still being groomed by him. I mean, you know, the love, hate relationship, that trauma bond that you have with your abuser. And that's how Jeffrey operated. Every girl was made to bring in other girls. Like, if you were brought to him and he didn't like you or whatever, then he made you bring in another girl or at least introduce you to your best friends or friends.

I believe that the secretaries that were never abused, I believe they're 100% at fault. And they knew what they were doing, the ones who used to hound you to go meet with him. Like Leslie Groff and all that? She was the one who was to call me all the time. I believe, unless I'm told differently, that they should have known better. But I think someone like Sarah Kellan, even if they got a little older and brought people in, I think that's just the grooming that he had, that, attachment that he had over you i know a lot of survivors may not feel this way but i really believe um that sometimes you have that's just what geoffrey did was have that kind of girl that

that's what geoffrey did was have that type of grasp over you i don't know what he was holding over her head to make her bring in other girls but there was 14 15 16 year olds that brought other girls and lots of them too yes i have a ton of empathy for the really young girls like you heard about in the cases in West Palm Beach where he just made this fucking pyramid scheme with here's a couple hundred dollars or whatever.

Bring your friends. Go to high school. Bring more friends. It's, I just wonder where the cutoff point of empathy goes because it's tough when you can see pictures

from the press of like Sarah at age 28 hugging him on the street seven years, eight years after his conviction working for him and you know i'll get this is another example here but that's why it's so complicated right it's very complicated but here's a tough one there is it's not guaranteed but there is some serious evidence

that gilene maxwell was sadistically abused by her father who was a that robert maxwell was an evil evil man i can believe that does that make what she did empathizing No, because most abusers were abused. And you have the choice, and you have that choice to make a right decision in your life, you know, to do right by people. And I do know that a lot of people were, I would definitely would believe that she was abused to become an abuser of that massive scale. But that doesn't give them the right to do that.

To be a grown woman in your 30s, 40s, jumping out of a car, running after a child to bring them back when she knows that what they're doing is abusing because she was in on the abuse. I think a lot of the victims who were bringing other girls may not have known so much of how much they were being abused. Unless Sarah Kellan was participating, I don't know if she was or wasn't. I don't really know her full story. But I do think that he groomed you so much to believe that he was doing right.

Like he helps out people. I always thought he helped out people. I've had friends that have met him through me and that have gotten jobs through him you know and gotten went through four years of of college university through him met their husbands through him

and that will say to this day nothing was wrong everything's fine I'll never speak out bad about him you know there's there's so many layers to it there's so many layers to it so I mean to answer your question about people like Sarah Kellyn I just think there's a big difference with someone who was abused by him.

You know? I understand. And then he grooms you later on because I was really groomed by him too. And that's the thing about the power abusers like that whole because you feel awful about it when it's happening. You run out of there when it's done. You don't sleep that whole night. The other girl who's obviously been abused a bunch herself is like, sorry, but doesn't want to talk about it. So you just don't talk about it.

And then somewhere in there, that power that they have makes you, well, you tell me, does it make you like kind of turn it on yourself? Like, well, you know. Because it's not about me. And it's just not me. So when I spoke out recently, the agent that booked us on that job. The Polish girl and I were at the same modeling agency. The agent that booked us on that job, after we got back home, she said to me, I'm sorry that I didn't protect you because Leslie and those secretaries called the model agency

over and over again looking for me. And this woman knew what this guy does. I'm telling you, that's not just like, ooh, I go to an island, I'm views. Oh, it's all my fault. I'm so stupid. I shouldn't have gone to an island. This guy was hounding my model agency to look for me to bring me. to bring me back over there.

And they knew. And she said to me, I'm sorry that I didn't protect you. I should have known better. But she didn't know. I mean, she just recently told me, as I've been speaking out and more people, you know, the agent who booked me on the job. I mean, she had nothing to do with the abuse.

Okay, I understand you. But Jeffrey Epstein's secretaries were calling my model agency after I left the island for months, trying to get me back over to meet with him. And even after I became a Ford model, even after Jeffrey Epstein introduced me after he finally got me back on a phone conversation to go meet

with the Ford modeling agency, I went to go meet with that agency when he called me because I felt like he owed me something. Like you took something from me on that island. Okay, well, maybe you feel bad and I'm going to go meet with that Ford Model agency. Even after I became a Ford Model,

when I had to go meet with Epstein for the second time, it was written in my schedule, in my modeling calendar for the day. So it wasn't me just like, oh, I'm going to go back and see Epstein. It was actually written through my booker at my model agency. Who was the booker? Well, I'm not saying her name. It wasn't Katie Ford.

That was the owner and director. I mean, she may not even know what was going on. You know, I'm not like holding her. Okay. Like, I haven't heard from her. But they wrote that, so they would schedule out your days and it would be like two o'clock, Jeffrey Epstein. Why am I seeing Jeffrey Epstein through a modeling agency?

That's the hold and the grasp he had on people and institutions, agencies, universities, everything. If you don't mind, I do want to back up for one second to the first day there. You didn't sleep the whole night. Do you leave the island in the morning, like right away? Dawn breaks, yeah. Okay, so dawn breaks. Does someone come get you and say there's a boat? Probably.

You don't really remember? We just ran and got on the boat and just left. Okay. And you go and you do your job. You're supposed to do that day back? Where was that again? Tortola. Tortola.

Yeah, we finish up the job, then we leave and go back to New York. Okay. And then you said that you found out that he was calling right away, the modeling agency saying we want to get her back, whether it be to the island or my New York place or whatever. Make an appointment for me to go see with. him to go see him. I know he all the secretary is also called me over and over and over again. So they called me they called my model agency. Did you tell anyone else about this,

like a friend or anybody? Well I went to like some, um what they called those group centers we go and you sit and you talk to people. Oh you did? Yeah, I didn't. I went I went to that. I had told one girlfriend about it and she went with me. do this counseling thing, but it was traumatizing hearing about all the rights because they were more like brutal. And mine was kind of confusing. And I felt like if I told my story, like I would look like I did something wrong. Really?

Yeah, I don't know. I didn't feel as comfortable telling my story because it was so confusing what happened. But you didn't think your own was pretty, the way you describe it that, I mean, any was brutal, but that, that seems pretty brutal to me. Well, because maybe because it's digital rap, you know what I mean, that uses fingers and the tools and things. Yeah. It's very different than the other words I was hearing were like, you know, like how do you say? Yeah, being overpowered.

I see what you're saying. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was overpowered, but they were, you know, I'm talking about like, you know, penile rap. I don't know, like the term for it. Yeah. But Epstein's rapes were digital rights. So, you know, I didn't really know how to like understand it. So you only went to one of those?

I went to a couple of them, but I just never really felt comfortable with those types of therapy sessions. Yeah. How long was it between leaving the island and having that first meeting with him? Approximately? Four months. Four months. Oh, yeah, it was months.

So you have time. You're trying to process it on your own. Was there a point in those four months where you kind of like, I don't know, trauma compartmentalized it and what about your life? Oh yeah, of course. I had a complete personality shift after that. It was like I was kind of damaged.

So I didn't really feel good about myself. I know that I started drinking and like doing some drugs and like partying and being out on the scene. And, you know, now I identify with all the people who hang out and party. I felt like like them. Where before I don't think I really understood them so much.

I think I was like a little more that goody-goody like oh you know you know you're doing that you know that kind of stuff I think after that I was just like oh let's hang out let's party and it and it works because it suppressed those memories really really good that I didn't really even think about it so much did it change how you looked at men though yeah how so well I just kind of didn't trust men in that way you know I just didn't want to be around them and didn't really have boyfriends as much or never really took them seriously. And I kind of just focused on myself and my career and work and stuff like that and didn't really focus so much on men, didn't really want to be like in a long-term relationship or get

married. I just thought, you know, that probably wasn't right for me. I think I was just dealing with a lot of shame. For sure. Yeah. And that's, you know, you hear the common story. I like people turned alcohol or drugs to just try to get rid of that feeling. You know, obviously it's not a positive thing, but like I fully understand why that would be like logically like, all right, let me just get rid of this, like numb the pain. And then you want to, it affects how you look at the opposite sex and what their motives might be. And anyone, including people obviously who are normal, who would never do those kinds of things. Like that's a really difficult shift.

And you said your personality changes as well with that, like a little. maybe a little colder in a way because you mentioned you were very outgoing yeah maybe around men a little bit I just remember having to like drink or party to have a good time you know and I never I didn't need it before right and now it was just like I I definitely started drinking and partying and just it wasn't really into it as much yeah did you have any siblings growing I have an older brother younger sister yeah were you ever close with them not really no so you at At that time, your older brother and younger sister and your parents, you obviously are not discussing any of this with them. Well, my family lived in Germany at the time because after Belgium, they moved to Germany.

My sister lived in Germany. It wasn't really, we were never really super close family, no. Why do you think you were never close with your siblings? What was it? I don't know. I think sometimes that comes from the parents, right? That keeps the siblings close, making sure that, you know, you support each other. and you keep that conversation going.

But I think my mother kind of like played us against each other a lot, you know. I just remember being very alone in my early 20s when I was navigating life by myself. I didn't really have them to call on or I didn't really have really that close family bond growing up. So that was kind of missing. And I think that's what Epstein picked up on me too. You know, he would ask me lots of questions. Be close to your father. And I would say, you know, I traveled all around the world growing up, had everything I wanted,

I played all the sports, you know. But he would say, oh, how often does he call you? And I'm like, doesn't really ever call me. Oh, boy. You know, never ever called me to check up on me and stuff. So I didn't have that, you know, emotional bond with my father. I never had that. So I think he definitely stepped right into that role because he was definitely a mentor role to me.

And I really looked up to him a lot. After I got to know him more, I really looked up. up to him in that way. Ultra predators like him, unfortunately, you see the profile, at least like I've seen it when people have talked about it. Like sometimes they are psychologically evil geniuses. Oh, he's an evil genius. Brilliant. Master manipulator.

Yes. Yeah, he knew exactly how to get into my psyche and he knew what work. He probably saw it on the island, you know, and that's why four months later when he called me up, and he was like, I remember what you said on the island that you want to be. and be a Ford model. He knew exactly how to reel me in. Probably took him a while to get to it because for a month it didn't work. And he was like, oh, what did she say to me that I can make work? Because he had already spoken to Katie Ford and already gotten me in there by that time he called me up and was like, go over there. You know. You said when he came into the room that first time on the island when he sat down, he started talking about asking about your dreams, your family and all that,

and now you're literally recounting exact examples. But he remembered it. Yeah. Yeah. What men remembers what girls are talking about their dreams and ambitions. Like, none of them. You know. Ones who have ulterior motives, for sure. Or on the other end, ones that really do care. It can go either way.

Obviously, he wasn't that. But he pretended like he really, really cared. That's right. I definitely thought after I got to know him that he really cared about me. How stupid was that? But that's what I thought. It's not stupid. That's what I thought.

It's, I totally, again, evil sociopath. ethic, genius who, like, that's a thing. Like, so many smart people I talk to, you know, from the psychiatrist and psychologist's side will tell you, like, they're the best sociopaths are the one who know how to make it look like they're in no way that until it matters. And every decision that I made was because I wanted to make it, not because he was manipulating me to make that. No, he was brilliant about it.

Yeah. So you, four months later, after all this, This was the one where you got put on the schedule that you were going to meet with him. Okay. And you were already at Ford at this point? Yeah. No, it was a Ford model. Now you're at Ford.

So he had made that call. So you see his name on the schedule. You know, you're like, well, I guess I got to go. What's your initial reaction now? Like, oh, fuck or like, oh. Hey, guys, there is a second episode with Lisa that is going to be coming out next week. We recorded too long for it to be one episode, so I'll see you for that one.