Julian Dorey Podcast - #398 - “He KNEW!” - Epstein Survivor: NYC Mansion, Hollywood Trafficking & Les Wexner | Lisa Phillips

Starting point is 00:00:01 Yeah. So you four months later, after all this, this was the one where you got put on the schedule that you were going to meet with him? Okay. And you were already at Ford at this point? Yeah. No, it was a Ford model. Now you're at Ford. So he had made that call.

Starting point is 00:00:17 So you see his name on the schedule. You know, you're like, well, I guess I got to go. What's your initial reaction now? Like, oh, fuck? Or like, oh. Well, I just remember calling my agent to say. like I didn't want to go. And what they say?

Starting point is 00:00:34 Well, I think she made a call to probably be 84 just to see. But I remember her saying, oh, I have to go. You know, he has connections of Victoria's Secret and things like that. So I think you need to go. And remember at the time, I didn't know how close the agency owner was to Epstein. I had no idea they were sending each other girls. I just thought, well, that's funny. Why would I have to go see that guy?

Starting point is 00:00:58 But I went to that Upper East Side. mansion, knocked on that big door and walked right in and... There wasn't like a moment where you're like, I'm really about to do this? Or were you just kind of like, they told me I have to do this, I'm going to do this? Of course, there was that thought, you know. I know what happened on the island, so I was nervous about it. But I just thought, oh, well, he helped me to get into the agency. They said he was great, you know, and she said, oh, I love Jeffrey.

Starting point is 00:01:31 you know, he's a good guy and all that stuff. So I thought, okay, he's a good guy now. So now in my head he did something for me, he's a good guy. And so I went and met with him, and I had a really, really great conversation with him for about an hour. I talked to him about all sorts of things and, you know, laughed and, like, you know, talked about my real goals and ambitions again. And gave me... Did he answer the door? No, no, no.

Starting point is 00:01:53 Someone else answers, right? No. Like the butler. The butler answered the door. Juan Alessie? Probably was Juan. Okay. It probably was Juan.

Starting point is 00:02:03 If not, I can't remember who answered the war the first time. It wasn't. It was probably the one of the maids. Okay. But they let you in and they seat you in the room until you're ready to go up the stairs into his office. Okay. So they take you up, escort you to the office. And that's where you have this hour long conversation.

Starting point is 00:02:18 The second you walked in there before you have this good conversation that I do want to hear more about, like, you see him for the first time. what's what's the feeling like deep breath um he made me feel really comfortable right off the bat so um i felt comfortable with him i think again like the initial meeting um just had a really good conversation with him just about life again goals you know um thanked him for introducing me to katie and becoming a forward model and he asked him a lot of questions about that and, you know, what kind of events and things I was going, did I know a lot of models? And he definitely wanted to know, like, you know, how much I networked and how many people I knew and just how, like, deep I was in the malling business and new people,

Starting point is 00:03:16 which I knew a lot of people then. And so I think that was kind of exciting for him that I knew a lot of other young girls. And we just had like a really good, I just remember a really good conversation and he was on the phone with a really important person and so he made it a point to let me know like who he was on the phone with I could hear him talking and you're not going to say who that was well he was like a billionaire at the time and I knew who he was he recently came out in the files you know so I heard him talking to him hey guys three quick things number one if you haven't subscribed please subscribe to huge help Number two, if you'd like to join my Patreon for early uncensored releases of the full episodes,

Starting point is 00:04:03 you can join via the link of my description or in the pin comment below. And number three, if you'd like to join my clipping community for a chance to make content from the show and make money, you can join via the Discord link in my description below. And then he told me like a little secret about him. And so he was trying to make me feel like really comfortable, you know, kind of like I was in, like one of him, one of his people. He was really good. So it was just a really good conversation.

Starting point is 00:04:31 So I thought at the time that that was going to be it. I thought that was it. So I kind of like got me. You thought you'd never see him again after that. Well, I don't know. I just thought that was it. I thought, well, that was great. Thank you for everything you did for me.

Starting point is 00:04:46 Wonderful. Like just wanted to get out of there. And then I just kind of like got my bag and stuff already. And I tried to like get out of there. And he just was like, no, where are you going? And then does it clock back like, oh shit, this is now going to be... He was like, let's do a massage. Just like that.

Starting point is 00:05:09 What goes through your head when he says that? Didn't really have time to think because he was right out the door to the massage room. So there goes the next massage. So that's when I have the next massage, which was exactly like the first one without the girl. I can't really This is one of the situations Where you want to try to like put yourself In the shoes of someone like that

Starting point is 00:05:44 And I guess I'm happy to say I can't But like I wonder if Just the fact that you walk through the door Considering it was four months later He had already abused you Now he had you had a job because of him He was put on the schedule

Starting point is 00:06:01 And you walked On your own volition to his place, he was like, gotcha. Like, I can't think of another way to, is that how you describe it? The only thing that I know is the fact that I saw someone really important,

Starting point is 00:06:21 he was not allowed to let me out of that orbit. I was not allowed to be free without me thinking he was a good guy that I would never turn on him or talk about him. you know so I just feel like there was a reason why he keeps you in that orbit and so the massage whether he was getting off on me or not I think has to be done because that's the way of keeping you silent again because I don't understand why he wouldn't just let me leave like why what do you

Starting point is 00:06:53 have to I mean we know now that he abused that exact way I'm explaining to you six to eight times a day with different girls six to eight times a day he was jacking off two girls six to eight times a day And that's what he liked. So I don't really know why he wanted to do those things to me. I really don't know why. He didn't always do it. But that time he definitely did. Same thing when it was over, just kind of like we're done.

Starting point is 00:07:34 Yeah, craft your stuff and leave. When you walk out of there, is it the same kind of, I don't know, frozen type feeling you had the first time, like just literally right over again, or is there anything different this time? Well, it's just confusing because it's an actual real massage, right? It's not like, let me just pull this girl in here and just rape her, you know, it's like an actual massage. Like, he's really teaching you how to do a darn massage.

Starting point is 00:08:04 Like, he really needs a massage six, eight times a day. And then he has to, like, it's his thing, you know? Yeah, but, I mean, it's... That's just like it's something entirely different though. Like it may start that way, okay. But then he's turning that into something that's not a massage. It's pure rape. But you're not, there's something in your head where you're kind of like normalizing the fact, well, it is a massage.

Starting point is 00:08:35 No, I definitely know it was a violation of my body. But just I can't even answer to you why. I couldn't feel like I could leave or scream or do anything. I was just hoping I'd never have to see him again. That's always what I was hoping I would leave and never have to see him again. And it's crazy too because, you know, as a podcast or two, like yourself, I've interviewed a lot of Larry Nassar survivors. And my God, their abuse is the exact same thing.

Starting point is 00:09:15 Jewish guy who treats them like, oh, you know, this is like our little secret, you know, you know, I'm helping you out, you know, here's little snacks, you know, trying to get on their good side while he lays them on a table and abuses them the same way. He's a digital abuser. He never had sex with them. He uses fingers and tools in their body, you know, and they were, they were just as confused as too. And the Epsian survivors say, oh, is he doing these creeping massages to you? And then Larry Nassar, our gymnasts are like, is he doing the same?

Starting point is 00:09:45 medical procedure to you too, you know, that they can tell it's creepy and not right too, but everyone knows it's creepy. Everyone knows it's not right. Everyone knows he's violating you, but nobody says like, this is an assault, this is abuse. Nobody can even say those words. I never did. They never did. You know, and it's like, it's the exact same type of abuse they get away with because they get off on that. They have control over you. But nobody knows how to identify it. And it comes with massive confusion. So when I leave, I'm like confused. It was the guy talked to me for an hour.

Starting point is 00:10:20 He's like a mentor. He shared little secrets to me about so-and-so. Like, you got me with an agency. Like, I, like, all these things. And then I'm like, well, maybe it's not so bad. You know, and I would just justify it like, well, fuck. I mean, that's just what we have to go through as women, you know? You know, that we don't have autonomy.

Starting point is 00:10:43 We don't have, like, anything over our, our body to say like, no, leave me alone, get off me. It's like almost really, really difficult to say something like that when you're in those situations. But you're pretty quickly like, I don't want to say not rationalizing, but when you're trying to like understand what's going on, that's a thought that's coming in where you're like, well, I guess I just don't have control. Exactly. Yeah, I think most of the time you feel like when you're groomed, you don't have control. I feel like if you just dragged me off the street, yeah, I think that would fight back. and things. But I think after you're groomed for an hour and then it's a massage and then it's

Starting point is 00:11:21 the salt, then it's like this whole thing of like, wait a second, what just happened? Yeah. Yeah. And that's his MO. That's how he abused, you know, the majority of these girls. You know, one of the things we don't know a ton about to this point, and maybe some people out there if you've unearthed it, you can share evidence in the, and the cause. comments. I'd love to review it. But we don't know a hell of a lot about Jeffrey Epstein's childhood. We know he grew up in Coney Island. He had two parents and only had a brother. But we don't know of any like life experiences he had and stuff like that. So if I assumed for a second that he was not someone who himself was abused a bunch because there are prolific abusers out

Starting point is 00:12:10 there who weren't abused, they just get off on this kind of thing and do it. Where do you think that ability to psychologically manipulate people like that comes from? That's a really good question. I would think he would have had to have learned it from someone. I don't know if it's a family member, you know, or somebody you watch on TV. I just don't know. I mean, it takes years to get to that stage. I don't think it just happens overnight.

Starting point is 00:12:44 you know but probably you know a little bit here a little bit there seeing how you can get over people how easy it is to manipulate and then you know just working your way up the ladder you can manipulate someone at you know the high school then you can manipulate someone in finance then you can manipulate someone in government you can manipulate you know young girls are pretty easy so um he used to always say like 25 26 you know that's when the brain is So he never went over 20, 25, 26. I know. Oh, he would say it like that.

Starting point is 00:13:22 Yeah, young, yeah, yeah. Girls' brain develops at 25, 26. They would never, ever even, because you can't have any, it's very, very difficult to manipulate a woman when she's hit 26 years old. They're just, you know, have a different way of thinking and a worldly view and it's harder. Unless you had preexisting manipulation with them.

Starting point is 00:13:43 with them. I mean, you can manipulate anyone at any age. You can be 50, 60, and manipulate. We see that happen all the time. I understand. But it's just easier when you're younger, obviously, because it's, you know, you look up to adults. You want to believe.

Starting point is 00:13:56 You want to believe them and you trust them. And if you're making an assault on you look like it's nothing, you know, then sometimes it just becomes like, oh, it's nothing. And in that one-hour conversation, he really did make you feel like, oh, he's like kind of a mentor. And I'm a special. He flipped you and you were special. What about not even necessarily something specific with what he said, but what about

Starting point is 00:14:27 how he was talking with you made you feel special? Well, the fact that I was even able to become a Ford model made me feel very special. That was very, it was super not easy to become a Ford model. You know, I had worked so hard many, many years to even get to that stage. and he's no idiot. He's not sending off some girl at random girls to Ford modeling agency. You have to actually be able to get signed to that agency. It's special enough to sit in front of him for that hour, you know, and get the best advice in the world, basically. He advises, you know, billionaires and the tops of government, and I'm getting the best advice, you know, really, really good advice I still use to this day.

Starting point is 00:15:10 Like what? just business. You know, I was able to form and build businesses and be successful in everything that I wanted to do probably from a lot of the things that he taught me. I mean, he sat there and taught me things. It wasn't just like surface conversation. Do you have a, not to put you on the spot, but do you have like a specific example maybe as it relates to running a business or something like that that you taught you? Well, I guess I could, but I'll tell you something that. I'll tell you something that he used to say to me with men, he used to, because he used to send me on auditions. And when I would come back from the audition, I would disappoint him, like, if I didn't do

Starting point is 00:15:52 anything with the director or I didn't get the part. And he would say, oh, that's just the way Hollywood works. You have to just, you know, let the guy think you're going to sleep with him. You don't have to actually sleep with him. But just, you know, you know, flirt with him a little bit, put your hand on his knee, you know, be a little bit, like, aggressive, but don't have to go there because they can't sleep with everybody. You know what I mean? So he would say, oh, you fucked up. Because, like, a lot of times he would send me on these auditions and he'd want to know every little thing that happened or was said, you know, because he wanted to have these things on people and how they operated and how they were, were they straight up, like, invite you to

Starting point is 00:16:31 dinner and then slowly assault you, or do they straight off assault you? Like, he wanted to know everything. So he would try to tell you how to be with a man, but also to get ahead, like, in your career and in business and things. So also, he would tell me about businesses that were coming up that women could, whatever you were interested in, he would tell you, you know, how to manipulate those situations to get your career. Like, I had friends that were in the art world and friends that were wanting to be like TV hosts and things like that. And he definitely show them how to like manipulate it so they could become successful. That's why there's many women today who are extremely successful who knew Epstein when they were younger. Does it feel weird that

Starting point is 00:17:20 a guy so evil, I don't really know how to say this, but like so evil just as like an aside to all the evil shit he did would give people like you something that you might actually. actually still used to this day. Yeah. Well, I mean, he was evil. The people around him were very evil. Yeah. As you can see in the files.

Starting point is 00:17:49 You know, there was a lot of evil going on. I'm not sure if he was giving me evil advice. I think it was just business advice, you know? I don't know. I see it as just business advice. I don't think there was anything like that was nefarious for me to like swindle my way through. But that's what I was. That's what I was saying.

Starting point is 00:18:09 Yeah. I should have said that more clearly. What I'm saying is he's an evil guy. He does all this evil stuff and that's who he is. And then just as a part of his manipulation tactics on the periphery, he might happen to throw you a bone of a good piece of business advice. He told me if you go for any job, the fact that you're a for model, you will get called in every time.

Starting point is 00:18:29 So you make your resume put up the top that you were a four model. He said every single job that you go for with your resume, you'll get called in. And it's so funny that. It's so funny now because I'll look at resumes from people that I know knew him. I'll look at their resumes that have come up in the files. It says they were a foreign model. Right. They tell.

Starting point is 00:18:50 So he was giving this advice out, you know. So just little things like that, you know, that I picked up on, you know, that you would listen to from any mentor. Right. You know, does it have you a mentor that's abusing you? A mentor of mentor, you know, is giving you life advice because he's not. going to speak on anything but real things, you know. Yeah, I don't know if I'm like proud of any of that, but I mean, I'm no stupid girl. If I'm going to sit there for an hour with somebody, I'm going to get

Starting point is 00:19:19 like the best information, you know, because that was part of making me feel comfortable enough for an hour later to do what he wants to do. And also the point you make about putting the billionaire on speaker, someone you would know and like showing you, hey, I can even take. You can't tell you about this guy. You can listen in on him. What do you think I can tell? It's like psychologically. What do you think I can tell about you to other people? And you know what's so crazy too in the files? Some of the secret secrets that he told me I could see. It's like validation. Yes. In the files. It's like, okay. Wow. That was true and that was true. I don't believe there was anything that man said to me that wasn't true. Anything. No, I really don't believe he was

Starting point is 00:20:02 bullshitting on anything. I think almost everything. I think everything he said was true. Yeah, I don't really see why he had a lie. I mean, the manipulation. But the manipulation wasn't in the lies. And manipulation was just like he always came through on what he said he would do for you. I have girlfriends that went through four years of university through him, you know, got their jobs through him, things like that. So he would keep his promises on stuff like that. Because he can.

Starting point is 00:20:31 Because he can. Yeah, he's not like, let's take, let's take like the mediocre pedophiles and predators out there. they give you false promises. Right. And they get you in. And then they can't keep you much longer because they're always false promises because they have no leverage and no power. This man had all the power in the world, you know, to get what he wanted.

Starting point is 00:20:49 That's why he could get these beautiful young women and, you know, and make all these things happen for them. And then, you know, the leverage of the underage girls in Florida. I mean, what was their leverage? They're in high school. So it's just money, you know, for their family. Two or $300 for their family goes a really long way. And he would go after poor girls around there too.

Starting point is 00:21:09 Yeah, who had parents that were in jail or drug-addicted parents. I know a lot of them, you know. And they have, like, major trauma from all this horrific trauma. Oh, I mean, I can't even... I think the trauma comes worse for most girls when it had to do with Galane. Because it was a woman. Oh, because it was just because it was a woman. Well, because you can expect, you know, someone like Jeffrey Epstein to abuse you.

Starting point is 00:21:37 It's older man. What else does he want you around for? But the older woman, like, what is she doing? Why is she pulling in young girls? Why are you doing that to young girls? Not many women do that. You kind of have to be a monster. She's a monster.

Starting point is 00:21:53 Yeah, to go looking for hundreds of girls and then, you know, giving it to him, giving you over to him and then also participating, you know? Yes. There's a big difference, as I said, than is Sarah Kellan, in my opinion. And someone who's probably in her 20s, it was abused, you know, who turns and maybe made wrong choices. Of course, she made wrong choices. But Galin is on a whole different level.

Starting point is 00:22:19 Yes. You know? Yeah. And it's, you know, it's also all the people around, though, because it's a similar type of psychological question to ask, like what I asked was Sarah. But did you ever hear the two podcast series that Tara Pell married? did back in 2020. One was like the Maxwells. The other one was Epstein. So Virginia went around with her. Yeah. And in one of the podcast series, it's literally like a documentary just recorded, but

Starting point is 00:22:49 they go to usually the gated communities of different people who were associated with Jeffrey Epstein and say, hey, it's Virginia Robert Schifrey. You remember me? And I'm with this reporter, Tara Palmieri. Can we come in? And a lot of people wouldn't let them in. Yeah. Like the chef, Adam Perry Lang was like, oh, I remember you, Virginia, through an emissary, but I can't meet with you. The guy, Juan Alessie, let them in. The driver. I guess he was like the housekeeper. It's been a while.

Starting point is 00:23:21 I actually do need to go listen to that podcast again because I cited a lot, so I will do that after this. But he not only let them in, he agreed to let Tara record it. And I always say it's one of the most difficult. difficult things to listen to from like a human perspective because you feel a million emotions for this guy. You feel anger that he didn't say anything. You feel empathy for the fact that he was an immigrant who signed this crazy NDA with these powerful people and then felt pressured to not say anything. You feel weird that he's sitting with Virginia who he clearly not only remembered and knew but liked a lot. and viewed her as a real person.

Starting point is 00:24:08 And yet you're angry at him because he turned a blind eye to this stuff. I mean, there's so much going on. Yeah, but what power did he have to say anything back then? That's my question. It's like, wound up dead or like, nobody would have believed him. That's what I wanted to ask you. And nobody listened to anyone back then.

Starting point is 00:24:28 Yeah. So when you look at people like that, the gardeners, the housekeepers, the people that were around him working on like the staff, you kind of look at it like, and correct me from wrong here, what were they going to do? What could they do? I feel bad for them because I'm sure they have a lot of guilt and shame about it. I'm sure they do. I'm sure they're seeing eight girls a day at a house, young girls coming in and out the doors.

Starting point is 00:24:54 I think they're not stupid to know what's going on. They have to clean up like dildos and things out of his room. They know what's going on. Yeah. But they have no power to say anything, you know. I mean, obviously we wish they would have. I wish there were some FBI files that says they made a report or something, but it wouldn't have done anything.

Starting point is 00:25:15 They had reports from hundreds of girls. You see this latest video of the other butler that they interviewed in 2009? I still have to look at this all the way. But like it's on tape and he was telling them like what was going on. I think they arrested them. Recently? Yeah, no, it's from the files. Steve, can we pull it up on Twitter, Epstein Butler? I want to make sure I get it right. This was like just coming out. Oh, that was coming out in the files. Yeah, okay, good. Yes, and the FBI, it's on, it's in like a gray tape. If we can find, yep, that's it. We pull this up on the screen and see what, what's what? So this is, this is a formerly secret video of Jeffrey Epstein's Butler trying to sell a copy of Epstein's little black book. So I guess it was like, yeah, then he got in trouble for it. it. Why is he doing time? You know? Oh, I'm not laughing because it's funny. I'm laughing.

Starting point is 00:26:11 Yeah, I know. I saw this one and then he gets in trouble for it. That's insane. Is this, I even had the words for it. He goes to jail for that and not the actual people that were doing things. Yeah. Well, you know the famous line from the 08 case, Alex Acosta, who later became labor secretary. I was told he belongs to intelligence. He was told that Jeffrey belongs to intelligence. Yeah, yeah. That's what he was told.

Starting point is 00:26:45 And that means hands off. Yeah. That would explain the 80 cameras in every room. But just because you belong to intelligence, doesn't mean you have the right to abuse all these girls. It's insane. It's like this godlike thing. I can do whatever I want to do because, you know,

Starting point is 00:27:03 I have immunity and nothing's ever going to happen to me, you know. Yeah, like that's the thing. That guy, Alex Acosta, has daughters, I believe. We can check that. So many of them have daughters. I know. Exactly. But like...

Starting point is 00:27:14 But I think so many of their hands are tied, they can't even do anything. That's the problem. He's running that whole case, though. It's like, ugh. I don't know either. I think there's just a crazy amount of evidence out there. Lisa, real quick, I just have to go to the bathroom. Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 00:27:35 We'll come right back. Okay. All right. We'll be right back. All right, we're back. So, God, I have so many questions here. But we did get off from the second half of, like, after you left the second time from his place and you were going back. Like, where did you go back to that day?

Starting point is 00:27:55 You said you had a full day scheduled out for you. Did you go back to the agency right away? Or do you not remember? I don't know. Similar kind of, like, have to compartmentalize it, though, again. I don't have no. No idea. I mean, I'm not even thought about where I went after that. When was the next time you saw him?

Starting point is 00:28:22 So during those years, like, I would travel a lot for work. So I always have the excuse of, like, not being available as much, and I tried to avoid him as much as I could. So there was a few times that I saw him over the next couple years. And it was pretty much the exact same thing I described in the second. scenario the second time I went there. So he'd talked to you for a while, somehow make you feel good again. Yeah, and then the massage.

Starting point is 00:28:54 It didn't happen every time, but it happened most of the time. And then from there it was mostly just, I don't think his thing was to have me do these massages. I think it was more so I have an audition, and he sent me on a plane to go to Los Angeles for an audition. And that person, a big director, a big director is in the vials. So, and then I found out many years later

Starting point is 00:29:20 that other girls were sent to that same director. So it was things like that. And then there was an episode where he told me to go to, it was after a movie premiere and I went to like a Hollywood after party, after premiere party. And the owner of the Ford Malling agency was also there with some girls. And then there was this like celebrity that was like all over me. and I, you know, kept saying, like, get away from me.

Starting point is 00:29:46 He was way, way, way older than me. And, like, grows or coked out or whatever. And I was just, like, leave me alone. And I was complaining to my bookers and stuff from the Ford agency, you know, that this guy was bothering me. And then I just, we left, you know, that restaurant. We went to a couple other parties. And then I found myself with, you know, Katie Ford and some other models

Starting point is 00:30:11 back at this actor's house. at a suite at a hotel on the Upper East Side. And I was in there for a few minutes, and then they left. I was in the bathroom, and I was there left alone. And then from there, I was assaulted by that celebrity, very well-known celebrity in that room. So at that time, I had just thought, well, like, dumb luck, you know, on my part that it ended up that way.

Starting point is 00:30:41 but I ended up finding out years later through like now we're 2020 and I'm deposed for cases and I'm telling stories of what happened to me and my attorneys are like, oh, you've been trafficked. And then they're like, who did what? You know, and then all this stuff started coming out. And I found out during that time that Katie Ford had been in on things with Epstein and that she Epstein had sent me to her, but she was sending girls to him. And so I just started getting really upset about it because now here I am thinking I worked my way, you know, I'm becoming a Ford model. And now to find out, you know, there was some nefarious, you know, ways of me becoming a model, how to do with these agency owners.

Starting point is 00:31:33 And then they were like in cahoots with like bringing these young girls to parties around these older men and kind of like pushing you off to these men. And while you just think you're special or just hanging out with these people, you know, and there was a much darker reason why they were bringing you around to these places. And so that was really hard for me to, to, like, comprehend and know that that's what, what was really going on. In those early years when you're a Ford model and this stuff is intermittently happening, you know, you had said you'd always wanted to be a model and everything like that. Were you able to ever have fun doing your job too? Or was the joy taken away?

Starting point is 00:32:21 No, I did, of course. Like, I loved, I mean, we would travel and shoots to exotic locations, different countries. You know, I really enjoyed the actual job of modeling. I mean, it was pretty strange. I mean, I'd wake up really early. I have to take really good care of your skin and your body. I mean, it was around really creative people, you know. I love the artistic expression of it.

Starting point is 00:32:42 But, you know, there was all sorts of things. going on where you were constantly around these creepy men who are, you know, predatory men. And also finding out that a lot of the women were involved, never really sat right with me. It never does when these older women are putting you, you know, around these older men. Basically, it's basically trafficking you to these men without you even knowing it. Absolutely. And I feel bad for a lot of these girls who are just trying to live out their dreams, you know, like I was. and put in these situations where they never really should have been in.

Starting point is 00:33:19 So that episode was really weird. Didn't find out what was really going on with that until just two years ago. There was also agents who, you know, weird things were going on. So these model agencies not only were sending girls to Epstein, they were also bringing you to these parties around other older men. and they were also in with a lot of politicians and like senators and things like that. So you would see those people there? So I'll tell you about this.

Starting point is 00:33:54 I don't think I've ever brought this up. I had time to really tell this story. But so now I'm a Ford model, you know, feeling good, you know, living the life, having a great career. I would go out often with Katie Ford and her husband, Andre Belas. Now, Andre was very handsome and charming. And the girls didn't really mind him being around Because he just, you know He was very good looking

Starting point is 00:34:16 But it was always this thing of like It's kind of weird Like she's with this guy, you know And then we would start seeing him around A lot with whenever she wasn't around There would be Uma was around You know, with our men, the actress I think he later married

Starting point is 00:34:33 So there was these things that were just right in your face That didn't really make sense why these adults who were married were having their mistress or whoever right in front of you. They were just weird things like that. So one day I'm at the agency and one of my bookers, and Katie was there and some of the other agents were there and were like, you know, we had a guy in the other day who was like checking out comp cards and was like, ooh, who's Lisa Phillips? Like she's really cute.

Starting point is 00:35:03 And they were like, he's a really important person. And, you know, we think you should go on a blind date with him. And so I was just like, are you serious? Like, I've never gone on a blind date. And they were like, yeah, you know, you should go out with this guy. And I was just like, hey, whatever. And so, you know, they organized this blind date for me. And so I remember being with my girlfriends.

Starting point is 00:35:24 By this time, I lived in the Upper East Side. And I got ready for this date. And they had told me to wear like a really nice dress because we were going to a really nice dinner party. And so they had their hand in all of this for the date. And so I didn't think anything of it because I just thought, oh, it's going to be some young hot guy. It would be fun.

Starting point is 00:35:42 You know? And so, like, it's so stupid back then, you know? Like, who thinks about this kind of stuff? And so you just trust your agency. And so I get already. I'm in this, like, pretty dress. And then I go running out. I remember it was a rangerover.

Starting point is 00:35:57 And I go to open the door and I'm like, are we picking up your grandson? And he's like, no. I was like, your son? And he's like, no. And I'm like, I'm going out with you? And he was like, yeah. Like, get in.

Starting point is 00:36:13 It'll be fine. Just get in. You know, I know when he names the bookers and stuff like that. I'm like, are you serious? Like, I just couldn't believe it because the guy looked so old. Yeah. Like my grandfather, white hair. And he was old.

Starting point is 00:36:26 And I was just like, I didn't understand it. So I get in the car. You know, and he ends up being actually really nice. He's a state senator. Oh, they always are. Yeah. He's a senator. So I'm just like, okay.

Starting point is 00:36:40 this man takes me around the corner upper east side near madison and 70 something around the corner from epstein's house we go into this house up into an elevator into this this beautiful dining area and where he seats me down for dinner and i'm sitting next to algor and tippy and i'm just like this is your this is year 2000, 2001. And I'm just like, huh? And I remember, like, you know, I'm pretty cultured and whatever and, you know, talking about art and politics. I have no idea what these people are talking about. And I remember after the dinner, you know, so I just hold my own. After the dinner, I was like, why did you bring me to this dinner? I was like, aren't you embarrassed to be there with me? You know, you're so much older than me. He was like, no, this is no big deal. And I'm like, are you serious?

Starting point is 00:37:36 And I remember asking him, like, I had no idea what they were saying the whole time. And he was like, oh, if you just read the New York Times every day, you'll understand everything. You know? And I was just like, this is just the weirdest world. And then he dropped me off at my house. And I remember running upstairs and telling my girlfriend's like, you won't believe what does it happen. I was like, so he just did dinner. Yeah, it was just dinner.

Starting point is 00:37:59 It was really nothing. Drop me off. Granted, I never went back out with him again because now that I know how it works. Probably would have been abused at some point, but I never went back out with that guy because I just thought, how weird is that? And I remember going back to my agency like the next day or whenever I went in there and being like, you know, you hooked me up with a like a 70-year-old man. Who was sitting next to the dude who, I'm guessing by the timeline, had just lost the most contentious presidential election ever. Just casually. And why would you bring someone like me, you know, someone's so young with you to such an important.

Starting point is 00:38:36 important dinner with all like political people there, you know, the climate, everyone that was around. Why would you be so like candid? Not to think that that's kind of, I even said to him, aren't you embarrassed of me to be there with you? You know, there's probably like a 50 year old, I mean a 50 age gap here. No, it was just nothing. Now I understand that why it's nothing. You know, but back then I just was like, you guys are weird. And that was my model agency that put me on a blind date with this guy, knowing full well. It didn't even say to me, look, he's going to be a little older than you. You know, didn't even, like, say anything to me.

Starting point is 00:39:19 That's how much, like, they just, like, use and abuse you, you know, just your little pawn in their whole little game, you know? They just don't, like, give a shit. They probably wouldn't have cared if I was assaulted by that guy that night. No, I don't think they would have. Yeah. I think that's probably part of the expectation. You were having enough fun doing the job of modeling and as you said, having these other experiences around the world and whatever that you were able to kind of separate those two. But as someone who spent yours as a model and then spent a lot of years working in the industry as a modeling scout, like looking back on it now and knowing what you know, are you kind of like this is such a gross industry?

Starting point is 00:40:00 Yeah, I mean, this was, yeah, I mean, that's the reason why I tapped out about two years. ago. Yeah. I was like done. What was the breaking point? Well, I mean, all this stuff was coming up and it had been through these depositions with Virginia J. Frey. I was deposed for her case and with the J.P. Morgan, I found out lots of information. Bookmark that. We'll come back. Yeah, it's just so many things. And I was just like, also sitting in the offices at one of the

Starting point is 00:40:25 most prestigious agencies in the world and still having girls and boys come in saying, you know, this person touched me and this person like try to hit on me and this person assault. to me. I'm like still, like, this is still going on. Where's the protection? You know, and I just was getting fed up of it. So I really decided right in that moment, like, I'm getting out of this business and I'm going to go right into podcasting because that's the thing to go into right now. I'm going to start a podcast and I'm going to talk to survivors. I'm a survivor. I'm going to start telling my story and I'm going to listen to survivor stories. And I just ended up just doing it very quickly about about two years ago i just went right into it and started doing it good for you yeah oh i

Starting point is 00:41:10 also have to hook you up with sarah edminson as well i know i had her in here and she was really her story was really amazing too you guys would do a great podcast together yeah but do you know i think unfortunately when you now see something so blatantly made in the open and people not going to prison. You know, you ask yourself, wow, this stuff's still happening. Why? Well, here's why. Because other people look at it and they go, well, look, even those guys don't go to prison. Exactly. They were doing cannibal shit. Exactly. That's why someone like Pam Bondi had the responsibility to at least acknowledge people who have been assaulted. Ignallage them. The fact that you don't even acknowledge them just spreads like wild fire throughout all

Starting point is 00:41:59 survivors everywhere don't speak up. Yeah. And she's a woman too. Not going to get anywhere. She's a woman too. That's really like double. You don't have, you have no idea how many people in the modeling business have been abused. I mean, most models will be like me two times, six times, ten times. It happens so much, you know, with young, ambitious women, not just modeling entertainment world. Of course. Music role is even worse. Um, You know, but anyone who's working their way up the ladder to, you know, have a successful career, you know, this stuff happens. Goes right back to the manipulation. He did in the first conversation where he said he asked you about your dreams, your family and all the good stuff.

Starting point is 00:42:47 You're talking about the most preeminent industry examples of places where that is what they sell. When you talk modeling, when you talk entertainment, when you talk Hollywood, it's like only a select few make it. you really want it right how bad do you want it and they pray on that yeah and unfortunately that's how a lot of the sex trafficking rings today that's the foundation of them you know they pray on those dreams and that's how they say oh we'll come to Vegas come to Vegas and then we're going to introduce you to the right people whether it's the music business or whatever and they come to Vegas and then they're right into the trafficking ring how did you you said he got married in 06 yes How did you meet your husband?

Starting point is 00:43:31 Do we have to go into that? You don't have to. No, no, no, sorry if that's not something. We're divorced. Your ex-husband, I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I was in Malibu. It's a nice place.

Starting point is 00:43:47 We don't have to talk about that. I had a beautiful, you know, it just, it wasn't, I didn't, I hadn't confronted my trauma. I hadn't gone through therapy and stuff. So I brought a lot of that into the relationship, chose someone who didn't end up being a very good relationship for me. And so I ended up raising my children all by myself.

Starting point is 00:44:16 Wow. Yeah. I ended up leaving. Yeah, I ended up leaving him and moving to New York again in 2011 to two young boys. And just realizing I have to do it all myself. ended up going kind of back into the modeling world. And many of the people that I knew helped me out. And I started a scouting agency and protecting models, finding models and managing them and

Starting point is 00:44:37 placing them with big agencies. So I was pretty successful working in that business. And I had two little babies at the time. And then found out a few months later that I was pregnant. And that was really difficult for me because I already had two young babies by myself. and realize now I was pregnant, same bother, but didn't even know, hadn't even shown or anything, you know, and I was three and a half months pregnant. So I ended up raising three boys,

Starting point is 00:45:06 three young boys on my own. That's amazing, though, that you did that. Yeah, I can tell you through my 30s, entirely through my 30s, never was in any relationship. I raised my boys early, from my 30s to until I was 40 years old, raised my kids all on my own. It was the best years of my life, but the hardest years of my life

Starting point is 00:45:27 here in New York City. Yeah. It wasn't until 2017 I moved with my kids. I always promised my kids like, Mommy is going to make it. She's going to take care of you, and we're going to move to Los Angeles, and we're going to have a view of the ocean, and we're going to have like the best life. And in 2017, I made that dream come true for them, and then moved them to Laguna Beach. Oh, it's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. A little different than New York City. I just wanted to be near the ocean and, you know, have little surfer babies and have that beautiful California life. And so, you know, I was able to give that to them, you know. Yeah, but it wasn't until I was 40 where I started dating again.

Starting point is 00:46:07 My kids were a little older. So when you're raising them on your own for all these years, though, like you said, you weren't confronting what had happened to you and everything. Did it change? Obviously, like you were, you revolved your whole life around your kids and made unbelievable sacrifices for that and were clearly a great mom. Did it change at all how you look at your kids from like a protective mother standpoint once you went back and thought about the things that had happened to you and then kind of looked at them like, oh my God. Oh yeah, I'm a very protective mom. But I mean, I want to have independent children, you know, and I want them to think. for themselves and do whatever they want to do in their lives.

Starting point is 00:46:49 And I will always support them 100%. But I'm very protective of them. I mean, as any parent should be. But through those years, it was just them and me. You know, it was really, really beautiful. So I didn't have any relationships and I didn't want to. You know, I had a failed marriage. I just chose really the wrong person for myself.

Starting point is 00:47:13 We had nothing in common. He was Norwegian descent. and, you know, didn't really bomb with them and basically kind of gave them up in a way. And so, you know, I was in survival mode, I think, through my 30s, building a business and basically in survival mode just all by myself, living in New York City, which is not cheap, you know, and really did it all on my own. And it took me about two or three years. And I, you know, had a successful business and I managed tons of models and really enjoyed it. and then was offered a position, you know, at women management and the industry models to be the head scout.

Starting point is 00:47:54 And then I started traveling around the world again as a scout for a Japanese agency. And that's when I started going to all these countries and, you know, doing the big scouting work. You get to take your kids with you? For some, but not really. They were young. I thank God for my mother-in-law. She would come and stay with the kids and stuff. Thank God for her.

Starting point is 00:48:14 I would never have been able to have, you know, the career that I had without my in-laws, you know, taking care of the kids. Oh, so they're great. They stayed in your life. Yeah, I was, yeah, I mean, it wasn't so great in the beginning, you know, when I left their son. But, you know, after a while, they love their grandkids and they were there for them. And anytime I would leave for, you know, a week at a time to take care of business and travel the world, you know, for my job, they would take care of the kids. And I'm so grateful for them. Yeah. That's cool.

Starting point is 00:48:44 Yeah, I didn't mean to step in something personal there with your husband. The only reason I was asking. I just never ever talk about him. Yeah, that's absolutely fine with me. The only reason I was asking about that in general was because I was trying to figure out what, you know, mentally got you to a place to be able to trust someone enough to date them seriously and then marry them in the short years after, you know, you're being abused by Jeffrey. Like you said the last time you saw Jeffrey was 04.

Starting point is 00:49:15 Is that right? Yeah. And I left straight to Los Angeles. I was an actress. I had one of the best managers in talent agencies. I was auditioning. You know, I loved being actress in a model. I really, really loved it.

Starting point is 00:49:29 I just never really liked what I was really up against. Right. Which was, you know, it's a nefarious business. It's not a very upfront and honest business. there's a lot of people that just want to take advantage of you. And I could clearly see that because of the level where I was what I was working at and the friends that I knew, I could clearly see what was going on. And I didn't like it. So, you know, my husband, you know, he was Norwegian descent. And it was a sweet man. And he was in commercial real estate. And I really

Starting point is 00:50:01 believed in him. And I really thought I was, you know, going to marry him. I mean, let's face it, I was pregnant. But I was trying to make things. work with him. You know, I really wanted things to work and be with him. But, you know, found out very quickly that, you know, wasn't going to be a really good relationship. So it wasn't really my choice, you know, not to be with the father of my kids, but it just, just, you know, the way it happened. Yeah. Now, you had talked about, like, over these years you see Jeffrey very intermittently and sometimes there's abuse other times there weren't would there be something like in a time where you went and talked with them and had a conversation where it didn't end an abuse

Starting point is 00:50:47 would it be because it's in a public place or something like that is that the only reason it wouldn't happen or i think the only reason why it didn't happen was because there was someone else there that he could abuse like for instance i was brought to his house for a couple parties he would call me like i'm out with my friends will bring your friends you know, that kind of thing and just naively just being, okay, like thinking it's another, like, party to go to. But then you'd walk in and you'd go up until, like, the, I guess it was the library with a big table. And there was just all these old men sitting around, like these nerdy old man. And it's like, okay, why are we here?

Starting point is 00:51:24 You know, stuff like that. You know, Galang would be there sometimes, you know, but they would be a much older man. Did you ever talk with her at length? I mean, I met her, yes. Yeah. Well, I mean, she was from or went to school in Oxford, and I lived in Oxford growing up, you know, when I was young. And so, you know, I had some conversation with her.

Starting point is 00:51:43 What did you think of her? I mean, she was very charming and eloquent and, you know, beautiful and stylish. And definitely was charming. And, you know, that's all I thought about her. I didn't really think anything else. I didn't really know anything back then about her like we do now. But she was very much interested in getting to know the other girls, you know. And she was definitely an organizer of the only woman there with a bunch of men.

Starting point is 00:52:11 So definitely like the organizer of the girls being introduced to the men. I saw a couple friends like sitting on their laps and things like that. And it was definitely a flirty environment. I mean, I found out years later, one of my friends was brought into a room with one of the other men and assaulted and things. So how did that make you feel when you found that out? Well, it didn't make me feel good, you know, since I had brought them there. It made me feel really bad about that. But I didn't know then really what happened.

Starting point is 00:52:47 This was years later I found out about it. So it wasn't really told. Like we weren't really, like I said, nobody really said anything about it back then. What, when you would be invited to a party like this and then they'd say bring friends and then you do? and you've had bad things happen to you, but then you also said, you had that other side of the relationship where he's like,

Starting point is 00:53:13 oh, he's kind of a mentor and helping my career. Is that, like, kind of looking back on you as a very young woman when this was happening? Is that kind of what made you be like, yeah, it'll be fine. If they're there with me, it'll be fine. Like, is there that thought in your head

Starting point is 00:53:27 that, like, nothing will happen if it's all of us there? No. Well, not really. I just knew that, anyone who knew him benefited from it, I would say, that they got kind of what they wanted. So a lot of times they wanted to meet him.

Starting point is 00:53:46 So like, a lot of times I didn't want to introduce my friend, but it's like, oh, your friend helped you get that. Can I meet him? It was like that kind of thing, you know. And so these are my really close friends. It wasn't like I went and pick somebody off in the street and they're like, okay, I'm coming in. It's my really good friends.

Starting point is 00:54:03 Like, what? You know, you got to go to NYU, you know, or you got to do, And it's like, oh, well, okay, if you want to meet him, like, knowing, well, he does, like, these creepy massages. And just so you know, you know, like, it was kind of like that. You did say that. Sometimes, you know. But I don't think I ever thought or knew that they would be assaulted.

Starting point is 00:54:22 Sometimes you, and a lot of survivors say this, like, a lot of times you think it's only you because they're not saying that it happened to them, you know? So I didn't really know the extent of these assaults until, you know, modern day. I didn't really know then what was what was really going on with them. I mean, sometimes you would ask them and they would say no. So I didn't, you have to understand. The way we think about Epstein today is nothing like we thought back then. A lot of people just didn't really talk about him so much. That's right. You even have the top of the icebergs scraped back then. Yeah, until it became a conversation. That was, that wasn't until late 2003, early 2004, when

Starting point is 00:55:07 became a conversation. I think it was even after that, right? Well, not me. Well, he was still involved with a lot of my friends and other people to 0506, but for me, I was out early 2004. Okay. And it was only because a girlfriend of mine came to me and said that she was abused through Jeffrey, you know, and she said she went to go see him on the Upper East Side apartment, I guess, mansion. I guess it had never been that bad, but there was a situation. where he had told her with that demon look in his eyes, like, you need to go in that room right now and you need to have sex with him.

Starting point is 00:55:47 And she was scared and she did it. She went into the room and somebody came in, had sex with her, just dismissed her and left. It was kind of this quick thing, which you fucked her up, you know, because that wasn't what she was wanting or expecting. And then from there, that's when everything opened up because then she was the first one to say, this man made me do something.

Starting point is 00:56:11 It's like, what? Like, he made you? And then we started questioning, like, well, I wonder if, like, when he would call us to go, maybe that's what he wanted us to do. You know, but this was like a force thing with her. Like Virginia, Jeffrey explains in her book, go do that, you know?

Starting point is 00:56:28 And so when she said that, she was just like, you have no idea who Jeffrey is. And like, what are you talking about? Like, what do you mean? And so we called the friends over, we're all talking like what do you mean what do he make you do what's going on here so it was more of like this oh my gosh are you serious this this type of conversation that we never had before so this is three to four years in um now you hear it from other people yeah and things are unraveling yeah

Starting point is 00:56:55 so it's a completely different um way of thinking about this man did you guys at any point in that conversation when this is coming out, did someone suggest to call the police or something like that? Or was it assumed that it's like, yo, this guy's powerful. We got to stay away. Well, we talked about it, about contacting the FBI. There was definitely talk about it, but nobody wanted to do it. We just wanted to, what we talked about was just the best way to get away from him so we didn't have to see him again. That was just what we spoke about. I'm not quite sure if she ever saw him again after that. I'm thinking, no, because she moved away after, I moved away. We all just tried to get away from New York where he knew that he spent most of his time.

Starting point is 00:57:48 And he would, before this, though, he would like call you, you were saying too. So that would be a lot of the contact where he's like, go meet with this person in Hollywood or go do this audition, and then ask you about it afterwards. That was a lot of your communication with him, right? Well, in person, yes, or maybe a phone call. That's when he was pretty serious because he's right to the point. But sometimes it would be the secretary's calling for things and you would have the chance to say no or I'm out of town or tell them out of town, you know, and maybe they would just try to hound somebody else to do something, you know?

Starting point is 00:58:18 I never really thought that those horrible things were happening. I just kind of thought, okay, if he sent me for an audition and I was assaulted or somebody tried to have sex with me, that it was just that separate situation between the two of us, I had no idea that it was because of he was sending me for that reason. I just knew when I got back, I always thought it was strange. And even at Keppled Hill, when I talked to all the girls and we sat down, I would say, did he groomed? I would say, did he ask you whenever you got back from meeting with anyone exactly what happened? They were like, oh my gosh, he wanted to know exactly every single detail of everything that happened from the moment you sat down with him and talked to him,

Starting point is 00:59:01 how he approached you, if he tried to assault you, if he tried to, you know, what he said, every single one of them said the same thing. And we're just like, wow, that's what I always thought, because I always thought it was weird. He would ask me so many questions about one little incident about one stupid audition, you know. But then there were girls sent to the same audition. Okay. When I sell my business, I want the best tax and investment advice. I want to help my kids, and I want to give back to the community.

Starting point is 00:59:30 Ooh, then it's the vacation of a lifetime. I wonder if my out of office has a forever setting. An IG Private Wealth Advisor creates the clarity you need with plans that harmonize your business, your family, and your dreams. Get financial advice that puts you at the center. Find your advisor at IGPrivatewealth.com. So let's take a director, right? He's getting auditions from innovative artists and Abrams artists and all. the different agencies they're sending you know their talent to specifically for this role but then

Starting point is 01:00:06 epstein is sending 10 girls yeah there's a difference that he's sending these 10 girls you know for an audition he's not a movie agent you know what i mean so that should have been the first red flag right there but people are introduced to directors it doesn't matter who you are um i think back then i was I was just excited to go on audition with a really big director, right? Yeah. I had asked you earlier where people, maybe if they aren't abused, learn to groom like that, and you said someone has to teach them. And there is a lot of evidence that one of the people who taught Jeffrey Epstein about this stuff

Starting point is 01:00:48 was adding in Khashoggi. That's a separate issue. But what you're saying right here, and I'm not saying this to make light of it at all, I'm just drawing a parallel, is a. sick sadistic version of like an NFL coach watching a lot of tape and learning every single thing about the other team when he would call you and in my opinion just hearing you describe it and ask you about every single thing that happened he's studying to see what the other person does or if they were because you said he would say to you like oh you didn't do anything or something like

Starting point is 01:01:19 that and then he'd be like disappointed or something so the disappointment might have been so sick that he's like, oh my God, they weren't good enough to get her to do something. Yeah, could be on that. Oh, that's a level of depravity that's a little beyond the bill. Wow. Have you, have you followed, did you follow the Diddy case at all? Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Starting point is 01:01:45 Did any of that surprise you? With Diddy? Yeah. Well, I mean, in the early 2000s, Diddy was around a lot and everybody knew about his parties you didn't want to go to. I mean, there were the white, well, there were the white parties, you know. I mean, I went to a white party. I mean, everybody wanted to go to the white parties.

Starting point is 01:02:03 But like, you know, the after parties I never went to where most people I know didn't go to those. And they had a reputation of you didn't want to go to those parties. So that was very well known back then. I also knew like a club owner that used to say that, you know, he's gone to those parties and, you know, about the bisexuality and things. of Diddy and stuff. It was pretty well known. Very open. Yeah, it was pretty well in the music industry back then that a lot of those men were doing

Starting point is 01:02:34 those types of parties and stuff. So the difference with Sean Combs is that he drugged. There was a lot of drugs around. And with Epstein, he liked you to be very present and there was never any alcohol or drugs around. So you never saw him drink or anything like that. Or he would never give you drugs or alcohol. He wanted you to be present.

Starting point is 01:02:54 And he hated drugs and alcohol. Yeah. Like he looked down on you if you did him. You know, that's the difference with P. Diddy. I think there was lots of drugs and alcohol involved. I mean, I think there was even drugs in the baby oil, right? So I think there was, it was very different environments, but still, you know, sadists, abuse, you know.

Starting point is 01:03:17 Yeah. Now, when you met Virginia Roberts Choufrey years later, right? Well, actually, before I get to that, because you've mentioned it a few times that I think we should talk about that when he first did you know that he got arrested in 07 08 in that case happened were you aware of any of that yes of course oh at the time I just didn't follow it closely okay and I didn't pay like a lot of attention to it I definitely didn't pay a lot of attention to it so you didn't know the details of like there were 43 12 and 13 and 14 year old it's coming

Starting point is 01:03:56 Did anybody know that then? I don't think so. No, I just knew that they were underage girls. And then I would speak to some of my friends about it, gosh, did you know that Jeffrey was with the underage girls? And then I had to remember there was this one time that my girlfriends and I, we flew on the airplane down to, like, West Palm Beach. And we were supposed to be going to Miami. We ended up in West Palm Beach. And I remember one of the girls, Rina O, she's been pretty outspoken.

Starting point is 01:04:26 I remember. And yeah, Rina called Jeffrey and was like, oh, we're stranded in West Palm, you know, we need a ride. And he had, he organized a car to pick us up to take us to Miami. And when we got into the car to take us to Miami, there was a really young girl in the car. And I remember we were just like, why is she here? Like, that's so weird. And I remember we'd always spoken about it.

Starting point is 01:04:51 Why was that young girl in the car? And then now we know why there was a young girl in the car. But that was the only thing that I ever saw that I would never have thought that he was into anyone underage. He was very, very adamant of any of the girls that were around were over 18. And that's what I always saw. And that was, that's what I always thought anyway. They could have been underage, but I never knew. The girls on the island I found out were underage, but I never knew then that they were.

Starting point is 01:05:21 The ones you were there with. I never knew they were. I mean, I'm sure maybe they were told a lie and say they were overage or we probably didn't even talk about it. That's a thing. That's a thing about like the blackmail and stuff. Like all you got to do if you want to blackmail someone like that is, let me think about a really blatant example. I don't know how this would work, but you have rooms camered up. Some guy goes in to have what, you know, even on camera might appear to be consent.

Starting point is 01:05:53 sexual sex, but let's actually assume it's not. But it might appear that way. According to law, you might be able to make the argument. But if someone comes in afterwards and pulls out the driver's license or the passport or whatever identification of that person and just holds it up to the camera, you're fucked. Yeah. It's done. And so there are people because it's so hard to skim through all this and be like, could

Starting point is 01:06:16 this person be innocent? Could everyone just looks guilty and you just want to go off with all your heads? but there are people who have said like people who are viewed as as perpetrators of this stuff who have said exactly what you just said which is I always saw them with young women but I never saw them with a 12 or 13 year old or 14 year old or something like that they were always of age and so it's like all right whatever and it's like when I hear people say that I'm like I could see how the fog sets in but to me it's like looking at it from their perspectives.

Starting point is 01:06:54 All right, you go into an island with the guy and it's you and him and like a few housekeepers and like fucking 10 women that's not a little weird. Yeah, exactly. Even just the 16, the 22 year olds that are on the island,

Starting point is 01:07:08 you know, is a little weird to have a whole bunch of young girls on the island, you know? Do these men even know that their passports are taken away and they can't leave until he says they can leave? That's great. You know, stuff like that.

Starting point is 01:07:18 Who took your passport again? Well, Epstein would take the passports of the girls when you go to the island. Personally. Yeah, so you can't get away. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so people don't know all this stuff is going on. And you don't really know which men knew of young girls or the really young girls.

Starting point is 01:07:41 You just don't know until you read the files and you do with an investigation, you know. I mean, you have Bill Gates saying, you know, I had sex with a Russian girl. Was it a 16-year-old Russian girl or was it a 22-year-old? you know I mean she's not coming forward but like what do you know you know you got an SDD from her

Starting point is 01:08:01 you know that you're trying to hide from your wife I mean I love Melinda Gates oh she's going to oh I love her she's just going off and that's what we need women who say you know enough is enough

Starting point is 01:08:12 she's an Epstein survivor you know she survived him you know because her husband was locked in there and saying all these years oh I just don't know that guy that well. The best line ever. He's like, well, he's dead. So. Yeah, he's dead. You think, you think all

Starting point is 01:08:30 your skeletons in your closet go away just because he's dead? That's not an answer, my man. Oh, my God. Oh, it's so bad. When did you, did you not meet Virginia Roberts Schuphrey until 2019? Yeah, well, I never actually met her in person. I've only spoken to her on the phone a few times. Okay. I reached out to her because she spoke out in 2019. about Prince Andrew. Right. And I reached out to her because I knew of two things

Starting point is 01:08:58 about Prince Andrew and I wanted just to corrobor her story or support her. The first one was seeing him on the island and the second one was my girlfriend. She was made to have sex. And she told me it was a prince. Was that the one who went into the room

Starting point is 01:09:12 and came back and blew the whole whistle? Yes, that was the one. And that was in the mansion. Well, she had told me it was a prince. And I said, I met a prince on the island. Yeah. And so we put two and two together.

Starting point is 01:09:27 And then Virginia spoke out and said she was abused by a prince. And I, you know, during those years I started speaking out, I didn't really have a support system. So I reached out to the survivors, Virginia and the other Maraca and the other girls that were there. And started talking, you know, with them about our stories and how it lined up. It was the same years. So. What?

Starting point is 01:09:50 Because you were, you said you were. were at least aware a case was happening in 08 when it was happening 0708. In 2019 when he got arrested, obviously the story went crazy mainstream. And that is a big difference here. They kind of like shove the other one under the rug when it was happening. What made you go, whoa, and have it all, like have your moment. And when was that moment where it all came back and you're like, holy shit, I was trafficked, assaulted, all this stuff.

Starting point is 01:10:17 And I've never talked about this. Like, what was that moment? Well, the traffing, the assault, all that stuff took years to come out. So there wasn't that moment. But there was a moment when he died when everything came like off my shoulders. With him dying was when I was finally able to say, okay, wait a second. I had a, I had just a reaction to it that just was, it was really profound. So I wanted to know answers.

Starting point is 01:10:46 And I just wanted to know, like, what was going on? There was so many things back then. And I just wanted to reach out to people and try to, you know, understand the story. And that took, took several years because when I spoke out in 2020, 21, you know, it was really to support other survivors in their stories. It wasn't even like, I hadn't even really gotten to my story yet. That came a little bit later with being deposed for things and talking about it. The Epstein Fund, I started talking a little bit more about it.

Starting point is 01:11:15 The more I started. Wait, the Epstein Fund? Yeah, there was this, you know, Virgin Island Epstein Fund. And I didn't get a payout or settlement of it, but a lot of the two hundred-something survivors did. But I did go and tell my story. That was almost like, you know, like almost being re-abused again because those women were not empathetic at all. And so I kind of shunned away from telling my story. So it took me some time to get there.

Starting point is 01:11:41 When did you start therapy? Two years ago. So it took some time. Oh, wow. Yeah. So not at all right. Well, actually, no. I did start therapy right after that, but it didn't really work for me.

Starting point is 01:11:52 It was just talk therapy, and it didn't really do anything for me, just talking about stuff. What was different about the therapy? The therapy that I got two years ago was EMDR therapy. And so EMDR is when they use like a flashlight, and they go back and forth like this, and your eyes go back and forth like this, and you go into that kind of like memories that are stored, and you bring those up, and you talk about them, and then you kind of restore them. And so it's like this kind of like hypnotherapy. It's very popular with trauma victims.

Starting point is 01:12:25 And it works. It works. And it's very traumatic to bring these new, actually old thoughts and the memories back. But then you kind of compartmentalize them and take them delicately, you know, sensitively to talk about them and kind of put them back. And then there's pulsating things in your hands. So the memories are going back and forth in your head, the flashing lights, the music. And so it's going back into that part of your memory that's suppressed. And trust me, mine was deeply suppressed in there.

Starting point is 01:13:04 So it took a little bit of time, but you would definitely have outburst and, you know, moments of like breaking down and crying fits and things like that, trying to get through it because you don't really want to go there as they're starting to run. re-remember things. And unfortunately, it goes into your childhood and the abuse maybe that you had in your childhood that you don't really want to talk about because I tend to be like, I had the best childhood. I traveled all around the world and I had everything I wanted. That's what you said earlier.

Starting point is 01:13:34 I've always said that, you know, but EMDR taught me, you know, girl, they did not have the best childhood. childhood. You did not have a support system. You didn't feel safe. You didn't have the emotional capacity to, you know, be. loved in the way that you needed. Like my parents bought me everything I needed, you know, and they will say today, well, you know, and when you lived in New York, those eight years, you know, I came

Starting point is 01:13:58 there, gave you 15 grand for your, for your divorce, you know, I was there for you. But I'm like, I lived there for eight years. You never came. You never helped me out for eight years. You came one time in eight years. You know, that's not the love and attention and what I needed then, you know, you know, the type of people who say, you know, all these things that you did wrong, but never gave you that support to make it better, you know, to leave your child in survival mode, which is I was in for so long, you know, and so EMDR taught me, you know, you didn't have a safe place. You didn't have that love that you needed. And granted, no, I have it with my children. So I had to bore people to get the love and support that I needed. And trust me, it's the best love and support I'll

Starting point is 01:14:42 ever have unconditional love. So I do have it now. But EMDR therapy, it'll take you by the balls and like, it makes you really look deep and hard in things. But because I had that was the reason why I'm able to be this person in front of you that's powerful and brave today. If I didn't have EMDR therapy, I would never been able to be this person in front of you. I needed some type of horror therapy. And to be able to hold space for people in my podcasts of their, you know, traumatic stories. I go to EMDR on Wednesdays for two hours for myself. Oh, you're actively doing it. For myself. And on Thursdays, I go for the survivors, you know, I go for their stories because it's traumatic. Oh, so you guys do it in a group setting? No, I go for myself just to work on what Lisa needs to

Starting point is 01:15:33 work on, personal stuff. And then after I, work with survivors and do this. You know, this work is not easy to talk. You know, you're doing it with me. Talking to survivors and hearing their stories, especially in domestic violence and stalking and all the things child abuse that we go into on my podcast. I have to go to EMDR therapy to deal with the trauma from others.

Starting point is 01:15:54 Yeah. I'm taking on their trauma because I'm the one sitting there crying where they're the bold and brave ones talking. So, you know, it's a lot of work. I'm surprised you're not in therapy for it. I think, you know, I, I get to talk with so many different types of people. I do all different types of content.

Starting point is 01:16:14 And thank God, because if I had to do, I mean, this is amazing today, but if I had to do one like this every day, I probably would be in therapy. Because you do really, first of all, there's like a great delicacy to one like this because I don't want you talking about things you don't want to talk about. There's also cameras rolling and everything too. And I want you to feel comfortable and all that. But I'm also trying to understand something that's not possible for me to fully understand, but do it enough that I can get it to a place to where you can at least share an experience to other people out there.

Starting point is 01:16:54 It can be like, oh, my God, wow, I never thought of it that way or something like that. And when you do that, I mean, these aren't happy stories, you know, what I mean? No. But they're so important to tell. Yes. Like you just said it, like, so people can understand and think, oh, I never thought of it that way.

Starting point is 01:17:14 That's the whole point of doing it is for you to get a better understanding of how things work, how these master manipulators operate, how people groom, how they, how they can sexually assault you over and over. Why do you keep going back? All these questions, you know, and so people can really understand, you know, the complexity of abuse, especially when it comes to a serial predator like an Epstein, you know, even just like a Cosby, you know, even understanding how these actresses went to go meet with this guy and how they were drugged and raped and don't even know what happened to them.

Starting point is 01:17:50 Right. You know, how everyone has their, like, M.O. And how they can get away with it for so long. I speak out for those reasons. And also the other half of it is because I want to be there for survivors. and I'm always representing hundreds, if not thousands of survivors every time I step up on Capitol Hill, every time I'm on the podcast,

Starting point is 01:18:11 every time people send me hundreds of messages all the time. I was just in Ireland, you know, all the messages that come in from people in Ireland who are like, I have something I want to tell you, you know, and just like getting it off their chest. Like this is something that is a huge, massive movement that's happening right now where people are actually being, aware for the first time speaking it out loud of their abuse that they had.

Starting point is 01:18:37 Because we all, one in three, one and four, have had some type of abuse, whether it's just like your narcissistic girlfriend, you know, you know. All different forms. There's all different forms of it. Absolutely. You know, and two really the worst forms of it. Yeah. Yeah. When you were doing, what's it, EMDR?

Starting point is 01:18:56 It's called. When you were doing EMDR for the first time in 23 or 24, two years ago when you were doing it. and it made you look back on your childhood and everything. This is also, if I'm not mistaken from what you explained earlier, this is also since you kind of ceased having a relationship with your parents, right? And your parents, at least the way I understood it, please correct me if I'm wrong, it kind of stemmed from them not being comfortable with you talking about this or sharing your experiences and they kind of abandoned you from that.

Starting point is 01:19:28 did that make it I don't know if the word's easier but give you a clearer path to maybe look at your childhood differently through the lens of this therapy because you were now past the point where you're like God at a moment I needed them the most

Starting point is 01:19:43 my parents literally said you're gone yeah the moments I needed them the most they weren't there for me that was the years when I lived in New York City when I had three young children they weren't there for me and not

Starting point is 01:19:58 to say they don't have their reasons, but I mean I'm their child. There's never any reason in my book. There's no reason that I'm going to turn my back on my child. There's never anything they could do. So I don't understand that. I did ask my mother. I did ask her, and I think it was 2023 in January. There were some text messages that went from my mother to an ex-boyfriend who had seen me on a documentary and had reached out. to me, you know, and had formed a relationship with me and he pretended like he was a friend. And my parents had met him and, you know, he was a really good Christian guy. And after getting to know him, he was very clear that he wanted to abuse me. You know, he wanted to have a threesome with me.

Starting point is 01:20:52 He wanted to choke and spit on me. He wanted to do all these sexual things with me. And I didn't want to have a relationship with him. And I don't know. my mother, for some reason, took his side because he was like this good Christian man. And on paper, he was like this good guy. And she didn't understand why I didn't want to have a relationship with this guy, even I was trying to tell him he was abusive.

Starting point is 01:21:11 So we had this big falling out over this particular man. Did you tell her what he wanted to do? Yeah, I did tell her. But for some reason, a lot of parents, I don't know, I've come to realize a lot of mothers want their daughters to be in a relationship, no matter if it's abusive or not. They want to have that relationship where, you know, this wealthy man has taken care of you and your family. Oh, he said he was going to take care of your kids and put him through college. Yeah, mom, but he told me he wanted to choke me and spit on me too.

Starting point is 01:21:39 You know? So there was just all this crazy stuff going on with this person who had definitely groomed and manipulated my mother. So long story short, I'm just trying to explain why I don't speak to them anymore. Yeah, no, it's clocking for me. So things weren't good with my parents after this relationship with this. particular man. Then six months went by, and so January comes about, and I'm looking at my phone, and text messages are coming in from my mom, but they're not to me. They're to the other guy that had broken up with six months earlier. And I'm like, oh, what's funny? Why is she texting him?

Starting point is 01:22:15 But I read the text messages, and she's telling him how I should have never left him, and he was the best thing that ever happened to me, and shame on Lisa. And so I finally had the guts, because normally I'm just like oh my mom you know she just must be a bad moment or something I was always sticking up for her but in this moment I hadn't spoken to her in a while and so I said oh mom you know why are you talking to this person like that you know and I can clearly see that you're saying you know oh I don't even talk to Lisa anymore and I'm like well I didn't know you weren't talking to me anymore you know that's news to me and I said well what's the problem and she goes well I'm ashamed of you and so she wrote it I can read the text message you know I'm

Starting point is 01:22:56 ashamed of you. And I was like, oh, that's funny. You're ashamed of me, but you're not ashamed of this guy who's like sleeping with a 70-year-old, you know, ratchet call girls, you know, which I had like eight pictures I sent to her of him with these ratchet call girls. Like, this came out about him, but she was ashamed of me, you know, who's this mother of kids who was just trying to be in a real, relationship. So it's just all this stuff came out where my mom clearly said, you know, like, I'm ashamed of you. And that was the last text message I ever got from her. It was the last message.

Starting point is 01:23:31 And that was January of 2023. And so for me personally, that was the hardest relationship I ever had to let go of. It took me a year to deal with the fact that she didn't want to be in my life. She wanted to be in my life to everyone else around, you know, to pretend like she was in my life. That's how she really felt about me. on her terms. Yeah. And it was hard for me.

Starting point is 01:23:59 So I needed that EMDR therapy really bad to be able to me that was the biggest heartbreak of my life because not only that did I had to let go of her because of her and her flying monkeys and all the other people had to let go. My aunts and my cousins and my sisters and brothers because, you know, that she, you know, infiltrated to them, you know, how she thought about me. and I didn't have a chance to like save myself. And so now I'm had to deal with this through this therapy. Took me a long time.

Starting point is 01:24:35 It probably took me a good year and a half to finally get to the point where my therapist is trying to drill in my head. You know, your mother's never been there for you. She's never supported you. She's never probably really loved you the way that you needed. You need to move on from this. And so I finally got to the point probably was more recently where I'm just left the point where I'm like, you know what?

Starting point is 01:24:52 if you're not good for me, if you're taking other people's sides than your own daughter, like I have to step away. So I got to the point where I was creating these boundaries. Finally, for the first time of my life, I'm there now. I'm literally locked in now. Like nobody's coming in unless you are really fully supportive of me. And that means anyone who's even trying to be in a relationship with me, any man, nothing. So, you know, of course, because of that reason I've been single for a few years. Um, um, um, um, leading up to to a year ago. And, you know, just had to create these boundaries. But that gave me, actually for the first time, that power to take my power back and be like, you know what,

Starting point is 01:25:35 I'm only going to have people that love and support me around me, which meant there wasn't that many of them. And then had to go find the people that love and support me like you, and other podcasters, another survivors, and other people that we've formed now this real family, you know, of support system that's beautiful. and I never really had before. I'm sorry that happening. That's, uh, whenever I hear that, and I know, like, Dief can speak the same way.

Starting point is 01:26:02 Like, it just makes me feel really lucky. Like I had, like, great parents, you know what I mean? You're very lucky. It just doesn't. I had another guy in here, talked about his mom on her, the fourth husband and third husband, I can't remember, was like the main one from his childhood, some abusive stepfather.

Starting point is 01:26:23 And there was a day where, where she told him, I love you, but I love him more. Which means she didn't love her kid. That just like doesn't even process to me. And hearing what your mom says, like literally taking the side of abusers, I might add. You know, I think I kind of was like getting at this earlier. But now that you've gone back in therapy and like looked at this, do you feel like your mom maybe never loved you or she just doesn't know how to,

Starting point is 01:26:55 show or feel love? Well, I think that I was always aware of it. You know, I was always aware of it, but I never wanted to admit it. You know, I never really wanted to be fully abandoned by her. So I didn't, that was actually the third time I'd seen messages like that that accidentally went to me or that I had seen. It was a third time. And so the first couple times I just, oh, it just can't be true.

Starting point is 01:27:23 I was just a mistake or, you know, she can't really feel that way. But by the third time, I was like, Lisa, wake up, you know. This person is not on your side and I had to realize that, you know, but when they make it look like to everyone else that you're the problem and not them and that I feel this way and she's the one who doesn't want to be in my life, no, it's not really that way. I'm the one who I feel like I was always desperately wanted my family to be in my life and be supportive, like I feel like I am of them.

Starting point is 01:27:53 But we don't always choose our family. You have a wonderful family, and you're so blessed for that. To me, that's the most beautiful thing in the world. But it's the reason why I dedicated my life to my children to be the best thing for them. And my kids know that, that mommy is like 100% for them. And they feel safe. You know, they feel really safe. And that's, I think what all kids really, really need is to feel safe.

Starting point is 01:28:19 Well, that's 100% true. and also like that's the best case scenario. Like what you don't want to do is continue the cycle. Yeah. The brave thing is to be able to, and the right thing is to be able to break the cycle and be the opposite of all the things that you were missing. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:28:38 It sounds like obviously you're doing that. So that, I mean, that's the silver lining on the other side doesn't change that these things happening. I'm sorry about that. Well, people love in different ways. I mean, my parents were very functional. You know, they gave me everything they wanted. We traveled around the world.

Starting point is 01:28:51 I mean, I had, trust me, everything I ever wanted, you know, and they were great parents. So I always had that, like, narrative all the time. Like, I had the best upbringing, the best childhood. I lived on a boat and I did all these things, you know. But then it's like my therapist, like, look, lady, wake up. You didn't have emotional support. Give me a reason. Give me a time when you had emotional support.

Starting point is 01:29:12 I never had to realize. I never had it. I spent months away. You know, I never knew how to miss people. Like, I would, I didn't know how to, I didn't know how to, I didn't. have that emotion of missing someone. Like I would go away for three or four months at a time away from my family and I never miss them. I would have friends or roomies, you know, who would be like, I just miss my mom so much. I miss my dad. My dad's everything. They would get little notes from him

Starting point is 01:29:37 or I miss my boyfriend. And I never really had someone to miss. Like I never had that feeling of missing. You know, I only had it like in the last year. I finally met someone a year ago, you know, who we have this wonderful friendship, you know, this foundation of, you know, just safety. Like, finally, for the first time in my life, the first time of my life, and I'm in my 40s now, a safe relationship that isn't based on knowing that guy just wants to sleep with me or just wants my body, you know, which is, you know, a lot of women have this type of relationship with men. That is the ultimate compliment from a guy's perspective, the number one compliment. that you can ever get from a woman is when they say, I feel safe with you.

Starting point is 01:30:26 Yeah, right. And it's true. Is it true? Yeah. And I, you know, I'm sure that sometimes there's people who take advantage of that, which is awful. But it sounds like you've finally found something where you genuinely feel that way and have seen that exhibited over a long period of time. And that's great. I'm happy for you with that. Thank you. Have you talked to your...

Starting point is 01:30:51 dad at all? Is your dad in the same boat as your mom? Or? Well, my dad was just the type that never reached out. He never called her texts. My mom, my mom always did it. So she was always the one that I spoke to. So when she wrote that text message to me in January, 23, and I stopped reaching out. And I stopped trying. No, I didn't really hear from my dad that much after that. He came out recently for, you know, for something with my family. And, you know, he saw a plaque on the wall that said, like, you know, like top entrepreneur or, what was it, like top, like one of the 10 top people to look out for in 2024.

Starting point is 01:31:40 One of the, sorry, one of the top influential people to look out for in 2024. It was like a headline like that with my picture. And he pointed out it and said, you know, I'm really proud of you, you know. So that meant a lot to me. That's all I ever wanted, you know, words or affirmation are my love language. And so all I ever wanted was to feel like my parents were proud of me. You know, I never really felt that through my life. So that felt good. That's interesting. Yeah. And you still don't have a relationship with your siblings. You said your mom would like kind of pit you guys against each other as kids. Yeah, up until, yeah, present day.

Starting point is 01:32:16 What's the age gap between each of you? Older brother, a younger sister? No, my brothers are you younger. My sister's just three years younger. Okay. I said, wow, you guys are pretty close in age too. You're not tight. That makes sense.

Starting point is 01:32:32 Well, come to find out a lot of siblings aren't tight. It sounds like, though, there's a lot of siblings, because I was an only child, so I can't speak to this from experience. But I know I see what you're saying, there, but I'll see a lot of relationships where siblings aren't tight, but there's, it's more like, um, mutual respect or? No, what's the word? Like there's underlying tension, but there's very clear shared lived experiences that they can go to. And it sounds like you didn't really have that part.

Starting point is 01:33:08 Yeah, I didn't, I never understood that because I had girlfriends that did not have a close relationship with their sisters, but they were sisters. They were still get together, the family and they're still sisters, even though they weren't close. And I know guys that hate each other, you know, their brother, they like hate each other. But like whenever they're together in holidays and stuff, they're still brothers. You know what I mean? It's just like I never really had that close family dynamic and we were a very small family. So I didn't, I just didn't have that. That's why I took marriage seriously, why I wanted to have a big family. I, you know, I always wanted to have kids and have that my own family to have, you know, a really close, you know, knit relationship.

Starting point is 01:33:46 But, you know, I do have that now. You've done that. Yeah, it's awesome. Are you, are you religious at all? Or have you ever been religious? Well, I mean, I wasn't raised under any religion. My mom was Roman Catholic, but we weren't raised. My father just let us believe, you know, figure it out on her own.

Starting point is 01:34:01 I mean, I feel like I'm very, very spiritual, you know, I do a lot of, you know, meditation. And I have, like, this retreats and things. go on. I feel very spiritual, but I'm not like a religious person now. But do you believe in like a higher power? Oh, for sure. Yes, a definite higher power. I believe in God. Yeah. I'm not a religious person either, but I certainly believe in God and certainly believe in a higher power. And I try to live my life assuming I'm humble and not knowing what comes next and I'm going to have to answer for things I do here,

Starting point is 01:34:38 so do as much good as possible, right? And I think everyone has to kind of have their own relationship with that. So however people get to that is great with me. Yeah. But I got to tell you, reading through these files and seeing the things that they're talking about and the things they did and hearing about personal experiences that you've shared today

Starting point is 01:35:01 and other victims have shared, and again, all the stuff we don't even know about yet. It is impossible to not look at this and say there is Satanism going on, whatever that is. I don't even, I'm not the guy that can define that. There's way better people in the comment sections that could actually like really define that. But do you have a similar experience when you read about this and see these things like shit, this is like ritualistic in a way? Well, Satanism is real. it really is a

Starting point is 01:35:37 I mean the Epstein world is a cult it's a cult if you look up anything about cults this has the exact same the leaders you know and the followers and the major grooming that's going on and if you look at the rituals and stuff that they do the pretty disgusting rituals that they do

Starting point is 01:35:57 it is a form of devil worshiping and yeah. I mean, I think with one extreme, you have to have the other, and the beautiful light and the God and the peace and the beautiful universe and things that we know are real as well, you know. I don't really get into all the other religious stuff and people can believe whatever they want to, but I do believe there's a very dark evil

Starting point is 01:36:21 with also the beautiful light. And I feel like we're all trying to get to that beautiful light right now and try to take it. take some of that evil away. Now that we're aware of what's going on, we're hoping somehow to move away from it or shift something that we can't. Those people aren't able to do those horrendous things anymore.

Starting point is 01:36:47 There's got to be something. We can't just now know what's going on and not do something about it. What that is and how we're going to get there, I have no clue. You know, that's we're all have to figure out right now, but we have to keep trying. Because now that we've seen how dark that goes,

Starting point is 01:37:03 How could you sit around and let that happen? I agree 100% Lisa. It's, you know, and I hope something does. But you've described that look in Jeffrey Epstein's eyes a few times. I believe the word you used was like demonic, like the demon look. Yeah, that shift. Yeah. Do you think there's something more to that, meaning like if demons are real,

Starting point is 01:37:30 than he was possessed by one or was one. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of conspiracy theories about how far that goes with like the lizards and the vampires and all this crazy stuff. Anything is possible. I don't like to say, nope, that can't be possible. I don't know. I do know there's some demonic stuff going on there

Starting point is 01:37:54 within him, with Galen, with many of that. many of them. I mean, you was clear as day if you read it on files. So I'm not like, you know, making, making anything up. It's, it's clear as day. So I don't know, for me, it's very scary. And there's a reason why a lot of people have a lot of fear around it. Yes. And Les Wexner's even, he even talked about it openly in the past. Now, because you could say it's a figure of speech possible, meaning possibly, but I don't think it is. I think it was an honest Freudian slip, if you will, but he talked about in, Deef, can we pull this up? It was in the 80s or 90s. There was a big article spread on him. Maybe in GQ, I could be misremembering it, but we'll, I'm sure

Starting point is 01:38:38 Dief will find it. It was in GQ. Okay. But he talked about, he's possessed by, I believe it's called a Dybik, which is a Yiddish word for demon. And literally says it, and it's like it drives him and it makes him do the things he does. not in a court of law you could say oh he's just saying he's trying to drive towards wealth or whatever but i said that right when i see the evil the bachelor billionaire right when i see an evil of a guy like this yeah deep got it right here and he's actually saying something like this it's like d i b b y k or something like that yeah they protect him for whatever reason in the files and everything they protect him that was one of the things that the pan bondi hearing when they i think was massy he brought

Starting point is 01:39:25 it up, right? And he had to demand. They released that name. And it was his. Yes. There were six names that Rokana said after he and Massey went and visited the DOJ to review it and then walked out and said them. And I still have to do, I recognized a bunch of the names. I still have to do more homework on the other ones. The one that I gave a shit about immediately was that he was one. And it's like, yeah, five mentions. There it is. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So in the, can you just zoom? in a little bit deep? Thank you, brother. So in the morning, Leslie Wexner became a billionaire. He woke up worried, but this was not unusual. He always wakes up worried because of his dibic, which pokes in prods and gives him the itchiness of soul that he calls schficus. Sometimes he runs

Starting point is 01:40:20 away from it on the roads of Columbus or drives away from it in his Porsche or flies away from it. Can we get the next? Yeah, the next instance. That was already creepy. He met his Dybick again when he climbed Vail Mountain and changed his life. All right, let's go to the next one. I want to see where they defined it. All right, here it is.

Starting point is 01:40:39 Perhaps it's time to reintroduce Leslie Wexner's Dybick, the demon that always wakes up in the morning with Wexner and tweaks and pulls at him. When he was a boy, his father called it tumble, a churning. So he feels, quote, molten and unformed. by the spiritual pins and needles. He met this demon again when he was 40 and already worth half a billion when he climbed the mountain. Wow.

Starting point is 01:41:06 I mean... What the heck? Yeah, I feel like if... I feel like a lawyer could work with that. Why did they even print that? Okay, so he says that the dibick saying more. What next? He went too fast and got into trouble in 1979.

Starting point is 01:41:24 He turned operations over to some other fucking... dude and did the buying himself he was always competitive so the dibick drives him for more more more more money money money wow that's the other thing with these people Lisa it's clear they like when people talk about satanism in this stuff it's it manifests not just quite literally through like maybe doing some weird ritual and bowing before a ball or you know the devil but it manifests in worshiping things and worshipping materialism and worshipping things that you put above the value of humans. Yeah. Now, I do have to say this to be fair, just like journalistically.

Starting point is 01:42:06 Nancy Mace, who I appreciate has been really pushing some things recently to try to get this out. She did say when they released the files, obviously they're awful, but she said that she was told to be careful with information you see related to, you know, government reports and stuff like that, like from 2020 and on. And the reason she said this is valid. Basically, once this case went mainstream, you know how it goes. Just like Harvey Weinstein probably abused fucking 2,000 women, but like 40,000 women accused them of it because they could get in on it. Your schizophrenic neighbor could say that that happened. Yeah. So I will say I have read like some because the FBI, obviously they fucked up their job

Starting point is 01:42:56 a ton here. Their job is to just review any lead that comes in. So you will see dead serious straight emails of just FBI person one to FBI person two saying like, all right, uh, witness claims that blank, blank, blank. And there's no like opinion on it. They're just reporting to their colleague what they said. But there's quite a few emails. I mean, hundreds of them that are way before 2020. That's correct. That's correct. I'm just saying for this one right here where it's stated, this is a December 2021. So I have to say that. Yeah, I'm aware of that. I mean, I, I, you know, I'm the person, well, a lot of the survivors are that came forward. You know, other victims that come forward and they speak to us about the, you know, their assaults and things like that. And many, many girls or women, I don't know if there's this thing of, you know, upstein survivors being like the rock stars these days. you know, people looking up to them, but quite a few have come forward saying they're obscene survivors and then you get into those stories and then you realize I've never even

Starting point is 01:43:56 met them. Right. You know, so I'm aware of that. Remember the 9-11 lady who like ran the victims fun and claimed she was there and she literally lived in Spain at the time and was caught years later? Yeah, it's ridiculous. It's unfortunate because it hurts the real victims. No, exactly. I agree. You know? Yeah. But that's, you know, as you said, there's many emails. prior to 2020 between these people where they were talking in code about stuff and you can't even like rule out the stuff that it's

Starting point is 01:44:27 it's just like it's nuts to me. Yeah. It's nuts. Now when he died obviously you said this all kind of came forward, what was your first thought when he died? You're like did you think there's no way this guy unalived himself or do you

Starting point is 01:44:43 think it's possible that he did? I mean the day that I found out was pretty traumatic. I just focused on the fact that he was dead. It wasn't until a few months later I started speaking to other survivors and started thinking about the story

Starting point is 01:45:00 and started doing some documentaries and things like that. And unfolded over time. I'm not sure I think your question. I think when I really thought about it, there was no doubt in my mind that he was probably murdered and not taken his own life.

Starting point is 01:45:26 I never thought he'd. took his own life. I just don't think, just knowing the type of person that he was, that was something that he would do. I feel like he had so much on so many people that he wouldn't have a reason to, and he would have gotten off on it in some way, somehow. Technicality or something, they would have made something up for him to get a, because I think that he was necessary and needed by, for whatever reason, he was there.

Starting point is 01:45:52 So, I don't think they would have, I don't know. So many people say nowadays that he's alive. Like so many people say that. I mean, I don't even think it's true because it's only because I hope it's not true. And the reason why I spoke out was because he had died. I think a lot of survivors are in fear if he really is alive. Not that he can really do anything now, but you never know. I think there's just a lot of fear that comes with this man and just being in the public eye

Starting point is 01:46:25 and speaking out about it just because there's just so many layers of it. So I don't know, but I definitely don't think that he committed suicide. Yeah, I've always, I agree. And I've always thought he is in fact dead. And as of right now, I still think that. But once again, it's like after all the crazy shit we're seeing, I have to say it's on the table that maybe he's not, I had a guy, Candace Gibson in here who became friends with a couple chefs that worked on the cooking team.

Starting point is 01:46:58 afterwards. Oh, yeah, yeah. And they think he's alive. Why? They said, they said, there's no, similar to the logic you said, there's like, they said, A, there's no way he would have, he would have off himself because he was too narcissistic. Yeah, we know that. And he always thought he could get out of it.

Starting point is 01:47:15 But why do you think he's alive? Because they believed, I, Kenneth was like unclear on some of it. But essentially, like, they believed he had too much power and too much influence over. over too many very important people to not have some sort of out switch. Yeah. Yeah, that's what I would have thought that he always thought that he was going to get away with it. So, and be protected. That's the reason why he was able to do all that he was doing.

Starting point is 01:47:45 Um, but then again, if he was dead, they already have everything. I mean, someone has those videos from all of his homes that saw everyone who went in and went out and who went into what door and out of what door. So almost like what did they need him for when they have everything that he could possibly tell them, I would think, is there. Right. So I don't know. That's a hard one. What if you look at all these people who are like a part of the cover up now and trying to not release this? There's still, as of the time you and I are talking, there's still two and a half million documents that they say they're never going to release. Forget redacted. They're just never going to release them.

Starting point is 01:48:26 You know. If they're never going to release three more million documents. documents. What the heck is on them? That's what I'm saying. How can it be any darker, more disturbing than what we've already seen? Because that's what it means when they say, we're not going to release it. There's a reason. There's like nothing on it. We're not going to release them because there's nothing on it. Obviously, this is the worst stuff on it. It's so hard to think about because like look at the JFK thing, right? Just with this example, you'll see where I'm going with this. If you could point to, and I think you can, like the government killed the guy.

Starting point is 01:49:12 There were high-level people at the Pentagon and CIA who did it. I don't know. Let's say there's 100,000 people working at those two places at the time. Realistically, 99,900 in some of them had no idea that was going to happen that day. But they work at the Pentagon or CIA or these places that have a name on the door where very high-level people, made the decision under the jurisdiction of those organizations to do it. If the American people ever got full proof of that and found out, those places are shuttered the next day.

Starting point is 01:49:48 And the reality is for all the horrible shit that we know organizations like that do. I mean, it's been well documented on this podcast, the horrible shit CIA does. There are objectively also people there who are actually doing their job and, you know, stopping a terrorist attack. Yes, of course, exactly. Exactly. That's the same thing I think. So what I'm saying is the weird thing is with something, now bringing back to the Epstein case, if it were powerful enough people that like the whole house of cards came down if all the information came out at once and then like the fucking country ceased to exist.

Starting point is 01:50:24 If I'm sitting on the other side and I know that that's what's going to happen if the information comes out, I can't even imagine. having that decision because you are covering up the most vile crimes known to man. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I don't know. When it comes to cases like this, I just try to look at the facts. So let's say he did commit suicide. Why?

Starting point is 01:50:52 Then everything would have just been fine, the way everything, the guard would have been awake, that there wouldn't be missing tape, that everything would just be in place, right? But then why are there so many things out of place that didn't function? right or why there's so many discrepancies around just a suicide if he really did take his life that's right yeah it's very strange that is this all you have to really look at if it was just so cut and dry everything would be in place like it was a normal day but why on that day perfectly everything just didn't go right why you see the document in the files where they had the date the day before.

Starting point is 01:51:35 Yeah. Why is there so many weird? I mean, they make some of these stupid mistakes. I know. The other thing that's so strange about this case is it reveals how small the elite circles really are. Everyone knows everyone. You can trace a guy in 1974 to someone in power now who was that guy's friend's golf buddy.

Starting point is 01:51:57 Oh, yeah. Well, because when you make a certain amount of money, when you're in that bracket, you only hang around those people. Yes. Yeah. And there's a much smaller amount of people. Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:52:06 Did you, when you would be in, in the rooms, like, where you go in there and it's all these old weird dudes, was there a feeling of like, there's them and they look at us as like, oh, yeah. They're here, but they're not. They're not with us. They're just here at our pleasure. Yeah. I mean, of course, they don't really want to get to know you. Right. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:52:27 It's always just kind of weird that you're even there. Yeah. Now, what do you think of the whole Giefer? Glenn thing going on because now she just pled the fifth or whatever, which I guess is her constitutional right to do. But she's been sent to a minimum security prison. If that was even her. If that was even her. It didn't even look anything like her. The nose was different.

Starting point is 01:52:46 It was just a whole face. That was so weird. Like that really freaked me out. Right. That's the first time I saw like where is Gelen? Where does she go? That is not her. They put like a fake Gelen in there to answer the questions, you know? This is the whole thing gets like a weirder and weirder. It gets weirder and weirder. Where do they take her?

Starting point is 01:53:13 I mean, I really do hope that's her, but if they took her out of there, she's like, this is just the weirdest. We live, we live like in the twilight zone. Right? It's like you can't make this shit up. All the things that, like I said, used to be like, come on. Now it's like, that's on the table. And I'm trying, like in my seat. Yeah, but these things were told years and years ago.

Starting point is 01:53:36 Yeah. Yeah. People just died once they talked about it. Yep. You know? Now it's like, you can't kill everybody now. Now it's all out there, you know. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:53:46 It's hard like to do it journalistically too because you're like, you want to stick to all the facts. And then you see a lot of code words and stuff and you're like, we don't have full facts. But man, if that were a mob case, that looks, you look guilty. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And how about the fact that all these people feel so comfortable in their position in society

Starting point is 01:54:13 that they openly send all this stuff on email, open source email to each other? Well, they never thought anyone was going to look at those emails. They never thought anyone was ever going to see those emails. They never thought they were ever going to release it, those files. All right, let me go one step farther with you, though. I don't know if this changes your opinion. But we're talking about billionaires and stuff. What happens with billionaires a lot?

Starting point is 01:54:38 They get sued. Yeah. What happens in civil courts when you get sued? You have discovery, which means your emails are discoverable. I don't think they ever thought Epstein's were going to be. There's no frigging way they're writing that type of stuff. Yeah. Thinking is ever going to be out there.

Starting point is 01:54:54 I mean, Bill Gates never thought any of that stuff. Bill Gates never thought any of that stuff was ever going to be out there. There's no way. I'm sure they fought like to the nail to make sure those that didn't come out. But. Yeah, some of it's out now. Well, it's just, the only thing that's happening to these men is they're being embarrassed in society. That's all.

Starting point is 01:55:14 People get to laugh about it for a little while and they get to go on with their lives. I hope not. I hope some of them really do see justice with this. Well, that's up to our justice department, isn't it? Yes, it is. Or they want to do something about it or not. It is. I mean, they have total capability of doing so. They have everything in front of them to make the right decision and to, you know, go after them civilly or criminally. Absolutely. Yeah. Let's see what happens. Let's see what unfolds.

Starting point is 01:55:48 Well, I really appreciate you not only going through everything, but also being brave enough to speak out about this for so many years now and represent not just, as you said, the voices for this case who can't speak out. out or might even be dead and really can't speak out, but also the voices for people around the world in other cases who feel pressured to not be able to say anything. It's a really important example you're setting every day. And I hope you can see the, can't change what happened to you, but, you know, the positive force you're now using on the other side of it to make some change. I think it's really, really amazing. Oh, that's awesome. Thank you for saying that. I do see the difference now and being there and doing this and I never thought if you told me a year ago that I was going to be at Capitol Hill and at the state of the union like all these things I would never have

Starting point is 01:56:42 believed you but it's it's so important and I you know I can't stop now and I look forward to season two of my podcast where I can have more survivors on and you know and have them tell those stories and have them have their moments as well yeah we got to get we got to get Sarah on there that's what we all need we need those moments you know that make us feel like we have some justice. Absolutely. All, Lisa, thank you so much. And I wish you and all the victims, all the best.

Starting point is 01:57:09 And hopefully you actually see some justice for all the things that happen here. Yeah. Thank you. All right. Appreciate that. Everybody else, you know what it is? Give it a thought. Get back to me.

Starting point is 01:57:21 Peace. What's up, guys? Thanks so much for watching the video. If you have not subscribed, please hit that subscribe button before you leave, as well as leaving the like on the video. It's a huge help. You can join my Patreon via the link in the description. And you can also join my clipping community via the Discord link down below.

Starting point is 01:57:34 See you for the next episode.

Julian Dorey Podcast - #398 - “He KNEW!” - Epstein Survivor: NYC Mansion, Hollywood Trafficking & Les Wexner | Lisa Phillips

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