Julian Dorey Podcast - #406 - "OCCULT!" - Epstein Investigator UNLOADS on Craziest Elite Global Network | Henry Abbott

Episode Date: April 8, 2026

SPONSORS: 1) MANDO: Control Body Odor ANYWHERE with @shop.mando and get 20% off with promo code JULIAN at https://shopmando.com ! #mandopod 2) PROTECT MY DATA: Go to https://protectmydata.com and use code JULIAN for 30% off all annual plans. 3) AMENTARA: Visit https://amentara.com/go/JULIAN and use code JD22 for 22% off your first order. JOIN PATREON FOR EARLY UNCENSORED EPISODE RELEASES: https://www.patreon.com/JulianDorey CLIPPERS DISCORD: https://discord.gg/8QmWEKJ3BT (***TIMESTAMPS in description below) ~ Henry Abbott is an award-winning journalist and founder of TrueHoop. He led ESPN's 60-person NBA digital and print team, which published several groundbreaking articles and won a National Magazine Award. He has written extensively on the Global Elite Network of Jeffrey Epstein. HENRY's LINKS: X: https://x.com/TrueHoop Substack: https://www.truehoop.com/ Website: https://www.henryabbott.com/ FOLLOW JULIAN DOREY IG: https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey/ X: https://x.com/juliandorey JULIAN YT CHANNELS - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Clips YT: https://www.youtube.com/@juliandoreyclips - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Daily YT: https://www.youtube.com/@JulianDoreyDaily - SUBSCRIBE to Best of JDP: https://www.youtube.com/@bestofJDP ****TIMESTAMPS**** 0:00 - Julian remembers finding Henry’s Epstein Work, Russian Oligarchs are WILD 11:08 - Catherine Belton, Russian Kompromat, Satanic Rituals 20:55 - How Money Laundered, CIA, Buzzy Krongard 31:25 - How Apollo Global was born, Michael Milken, Eli Black, Leon Black, Dr*g Money 43:31 - Milian Rodriguez, French Bank tied to Epstein & Black, Paris Fire 54:51 - Name Change Coverups, Bankers Trust Scandal, Epstein POA, Steve Hoffenberg 1:05:48 - S*x Trafficking Kompromat, Epstein’s large group, Joshua Harris 1:21:20 - Harris “perfect mark,” Private Equity, Dave Chappelle 1:30:00 - Henry goes to Britain, DJ near Zorro Ranch 1:43:31 - CIA installs Iran Shah (COUP), Bill Casey, Stanley Pottinger 1:49:38 - Jared Kushner & Jeffrey Epstein, Apollo & Epstein, 660 Fifth Ave, Supervillains 1:59:00 - BCCI Scandal, CIA Banking, Drexel Burnham Lambert & BCCI, Les Wexner 2:08:52 - Financial System & Illegal Money, Epstein CIA Dr*g money, Treaty of Versaille 2:19:10 - OSS & Rigged Game, Hitler Vacuum, US (Dulles) complicity w/ Nazi Germany 2:27:38 - Jay Clayton, Leon Black at Knicks game 2:36:19 - “Wizard of Oz” & Epstein, Howard Lutnick, Council on Foreign Relations, Arms Deals 2:45:10 - Who is guilty w/ Epstein, Michael Wolff, Steve Bannon History & Epstein 2:58:45 - Occult Rituals, Riklis Family, Whistleblowers? 3:05:11 - Wild S*** Julian recalls w/ people in NYC, 9/11 Shadow Commission Epstein Emails 3:14:15 - Systemic Corruption 3:17:11 - Henry’s work CREDITS: - Host, Editor & Producer: Julian Dorey - COO, Producer & Editor: Alessi Allaman - https://www.youtube.com/@UCyLKzv5fKxGmVQg3cMJJzyQ - In-Studio Producer: Joey Deef - https://www.instagram.com/joeydeef/ Julian Dorey Podcast Episode 406 - Henry Music by Artlist.io Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

All right, Henry, I need you to take a trip down memory lane with me right now. I need you to picture this. Okay. I'm in my parents' house. It's towards the end of 2021. I've been doing this for a year and a half, seven days a week, looking into the Epstein case like crazy. And I find out that this guy whose blog on ESPN that I read growing up as a kid, great blog, by the way, had done this investigation into Apollo Global and the connections to Jeffrey Epstein because I believe

there were two or three MBA teams at the time that had ownership structure that was tied to Apollo. And I go and I look at this. And basically, you had like an intro before all the links to the different chapters because you would just finish pretty much all of them at that time. Or maybe there were still two more to come. But there were like 19 or 20 on there. And your intro was like, yo, so look, I was just going to do a quick like two-parter on this. And shit got crazy fam. So here it is.

And I'm looking at this. And there's like 10 likes on it. And I'm like, all right, I mean, was, were people looking at this or did they just write it off? Because the basketball guy wrote it. I'm like, all right, I'm going to give this a look. And I would literally like read a chapter like this on my phone, like in the one room. And it would take me like an hour and then I'd like get up. Oh, God.

Oh, God. I'm like walking around like, no. No. I'm like, this guy went back to like the Treaty of fucking Versailles. We did do that. Yeah. And where on, what happened? Please walk me through this.

It's so great to finally have you here. I have shouted this out for years and people need to know about your work because you're getting back in the game with it now. But what happened? All right. So I was writing about the NBA for years and I just have an oddity that I do not like to be lied to. We can suck to analyze me about that if you want. But like, I just, it's just, it's not, it doesn't sit well with me.

And so I always was a little tripped up in the like NBA. was kind of a front door for me to see, like, billionaires and how they behave. Because essentially the league offices work at the best of 30 billionaires. That's right. There were just kind of a bunch of stories I was involved in. I ran a big team that was, like, investigative and stuff. And we kept running into this, like, kind of just horseshit. And so I got a little annoyed at, like, what are these billionaires doing?

You know? And so then at the time we were relaunching True Who post-EspN, I did a big investigation into the oligarch Mikhail Prokerov, who owned the Brooklyn Nass. Yes. And that was hairy. That was crazy. I went to, one of the things I did was go to this, like, secret meeting invite only called Putin Khan, which was like 200 feet below the surface of Manhattan.

And like when everyone there was like the, like the FSB has already hacked all of our phones. I'm like, you know, but these people talking about how Putin works, right? And in the system. And like, I learned so much at Putin Khan and in that whole investigation. And like one of the things became like to like, what Putin generally does, right, and his oligarchs is like they have a public game of like patriotism and rah-rah, but privately they are taking, I forget the number of it's like five to ten billion dollars a month for 20 plus years just out of Russia and then they want to park it somewhere where it can't be seized if Putin loses power.

Don't worry about it. Yeah. So they were parking it basically with blue chip American companies. They're buying like Citibank stock and stuff, right? but through a network that's hard to follow, right? And for reasons that are complicated, you really can't move that amount of money out of Russia and just without the mob participating.

The Russian mob. Yeah. So you get in this, like if you have a business that's going at all well in Russia, you're going to hear from your local mobster. You're going to cut them in and you're going to cut the intelligence agencies in. And like together they have this beautiful thing going.

And like, so that's fine. But their money ends up at places like Apollo Global, right and so like our financial system the global financial system used to be one percent offshore money and now it's 10 percent of all money is offshore money that almost seems low but yeah it's crazy it's a crazy number but if you're raising money if you're like you're raising a fund right like you can't ignore this money right this is where the big easy money is this is where law firms get their money like this is important money and then you know as i'm kind of going through this like Putin learning process i was like huh

It seems like that whole story, this, once you get this offshore money and big amounts, it kind of overlaps a lot with arms trade and with the drug trade and with BCCI and with like all this stuff you've been talking about. Once you get to that, you're like, oh my God, like this is, this system kind of is our system. Yes. And so then I was like, all right, well, and then Epstein story started popping up more and more interesting ways. And I was just like, I got to like, I got to figure this out, right?

I got to figure out how this ties to the NBA. Yeah, I actually saw. I was looking at a date stamp right before you came here. The initial, like, first story you did on it before you went and did your series was two days after he was arrested. So you were on it right away. I remember the day that he, I mean, I said to a friend of mine, and by the way, at that time, everyone in my life was like, what are you doing? You know, like, like, like, like, what? You write about basketball.

Yeah, like, what are you doing? And also just like, I mean, a bunch of people were like, are you going to get killed? And I'm like, I don't think so. I think I would be like seventh on the list at the highest, you know, maybe much lower. So, but I was like, you know, if this is, like, if the world is as fucked up as I think it might be, then Epstein's just going to die in custody, right? I said that to a friend. And then, like, I was waiting.

My daughter was in the theatrical thing, Riverside Church in Harlem. And I was double parked outside the church waiting and pick her up. And then my friend calls me, he's like, they fucking killed him in prison. I'm like, what? You know, like, like, like I kind of just said that. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't really believe that.

You know, but I said that. I did say that. And then I was like, oh, that day, I was definitely like, like, we need to understand what the fuck is going on here. Like, we do. We just do as humans. Like, we just need to, we got to get a handle on this. Hey, guys, three quick things. Number one, if you haven't subscribed, please subscribe to huge, huge help.

Number two, if you'd like to join my page. Patreon for early uncensored releases of the full episodes, you can join via the link of my description or in the pin comment below. And number three, if you'd like to join my clipping community for a chance to make content from the show and make money, you can join via the Discord link in my description below. Can I actually go back a step to what you were saying at the beginning there, though, before we even get to Epstein? Absolutely.

Because we're going to run through your investigation. We'll probably have to have Henry back because we ain't fitting this into three hours. But, you know, when you talk about the leaps correctly, I might add and that it's been proven that you made when you started looking at Prokharov when he owned the Nets and getting around some of these other groups that you didn't even know existed to where you said money's going offshore. It's being laundered through the mob intelligence agencies and then goes to like legitimate places like Apollo Global and stuff like that. But you then tied it directly to these people who are doing arms deals and some of the things that, you know, people could get their their heads going like, oh my God. I know. We sound like the crazy ones. We do. Yeah. But it's now been exposed in the emails that there's things I would have previous thought were

a little crazy that it's like, well, this isn't so crazy. But the guy Prokerov, that was so interesting because he was like a flash in the pan. It's funny you bring him up. Now you have, I believe, a Chinese billionaire who owns the Nets. So he sold to him a few years ago. But I remember this dude like coming up and he's like, I met with Carmilla. I looked in his ice and said, come play for the Nets. And then he went to the Knicks.

But like he was this flashbang like hand grenade into the NBA and then he was gone. Was there something behind the scenes there to where he got pushed out? Did that have anything to do with some of these groups you were looking at? There's so much behind the scenes with every oligarch, I think, really. Yeah. I mean, there's so much. There was one thing that really blew my mind. about how he exited the MBA, which was,

there was an executive from associated with him who was traveling China, like looking to drum up, I heard, a deal to sell the nets. And I was like, well, why do you care? Like, why do you care where the owner was from? Right? But the deal is like, China's the country that Russia is scared of.

So like, all the, everyone in Putin's sphere is worried about having all their assets just taken by Putin. Right? Like he'll just, he can un- oligarch you anytime he wants, right? But the idea is like basically you cut a deal with someone who's holding it in China, then he can't touch it. It's safe there, right? Putin has no sway in this giant militarized country that he has like a 2,000 mile border with, right? So the idea is like, have someone who's ultimately protected by the Chinese government purchase it so that your purchase is

secure. And then do you bank it in China? I don't really understand what happens after that. But so I saw that report. And then I talked to everybody I knew involved and I was like, wait, did they like seek out a Chinese buyer and I was like, no, no, I don't know why you'd say that. I'm like, are you sure? Because he found a Chinese buyer. Yeah. Like, but I don't, that was interesting to me. I never really got to the bottom of it.

But there's so much like, because there's a guy, Prokerov before all of this, Prokerov's, like, oligarch buddy who kind of like navigated the early, the early days of oligarchy were like very dangerous, right? And he was in the most dangerous businesses, right? aluminum and nickel and so. And he had a Harvard-educated kind of Russian-American partner who maybe got a little big for his britches and started cutting some big aggressive deals.

And ideally you're supposed to kind of get permission from like the higher-ups before you go making these big deals. But he was kind of a Western mindset businessman. And he started cutting these big deals and then just found his body in his vacation house. Like, dude was murdered. Yeah. And that's a problem for Adam.

well that was before and then let's not forget Procrow first made news not for anything to do with the NBA but he was in the international headlines because he was accused by French authorities of trafficking a whole plain full of women

that he was like bringing to the Alps to have sex with all of his friends and then you know and Prokrov was like that's absurd we're just partying together like you know and they somehow got an apology or whatever but like you know

Oh my God, are they all just sex traffickers, dude? Like, how hard is it? You're a billionaire. You got to traffic with it. It just seems like cowardly. You know, that so many of them are doing this stuff. I might take it. So do you know what Catherine Belton is?

It doesn't ring a bell. You should get her on this show. Okay. Catherine Belton is an absolute genius wizard hero. Like, she wrote this book called Putin's people that's like, she's that face to face with the oligarchs and like grilled them. and she like knows her stuff and she didn't back down. Then they sued her in London because one part of her book, they said was wrong.

And her publisher had her back and they had a big thing. And they changed like the most minor wording. But I'm like, okay, you guys, the oligarchs met and tried to figure out how to shut up Catherine. And their biggest weak point in her book was like this page, right? Meanwhile, other page of the book says Putin was involved in the cocaine trade. Like, but they left that one alone. Yeah, they're like, that is okay. The CIA deal cooking too.

Yeah, yeah. But her, like, in the end of her book, there's a little part about, like, oligarchy has changed and, like, how the new oligarchs work. And her thing is basically just compromise on everyone. Like, you don't get to be senior if you don't, if you're not on video, doing something terrible. That's right. Spring is in the air.

The weather is warming up and summer is right around the corner. And I, for one, can't wait to be spending some days at the beach. And you know what I won't have to worry about during those long, hot days at the beach? Body odor. You know why? I have Mando. Mando whole body deodorant takes care of exactly what it says it does, your whole body. Unlike other deodorants that wear off when you sweat after a few hours, with Mando, you put it on at the beginning of the day and you don't worry about it ever again.

Their whole body deodorant is also safe to use anywhere on your body. That includes pits, balls, thigh folds, belly buttons, butt cracks, and feet. And we're talking about a product here that was originally created by a doctor who saw firsthand how B.O. was being misdiagnosed and mistreated. So he invented a deodorant that could block odor all day and control odor for up to 72 hours. And today, Mando has different product options for whatever floats your boat. There's a solid deodorant stick, which is formulated and powered by mandelic acid to stop odor before it starts. And then there's the spray deodorant, which is aluminum-free and ideal for hard-to-reach places.

And today, when you go to shopmando.com, you're going to get a deodorant that's clinically proven to control odor better than Old Spice. Some men mask their be-o with scents. Mando men get the job done right. Don't mask it. Mando it. Head on over to shopmando.com. That link is in my description below because for a limited time, our customers are going to get 20% off sitewide using our exclusive code Julian. So use code Julian at shopmando.com for 20% off today. That's S-H-O-M-A-N-D-O dot com. Link in description below. Mandoz got you covered with deodorant plus sweat control, say goodbye to sweat stains and hello to

long-lasting freshness. Please support our show and tell them that we sent you. So to me, this is probably why I don't even think like this sex trafficking I think is part of it. It's just like look if you want to you're trying to raise money for your business like great come party with me in the Alps and if we end up with you on video we might give you alone. Right? But if we don't get you on video

we can't have you. We can't we can't have you on your we're not interested in you in our portfolio if we don't have total control of you, right? We have to be able to end your career like those are the conditions. That is the most ass backwards thing ever. It's like be a horrible person and you win. Don't do it. You lose.

So John Kariyaku was in this chair? Or was he in that chair? This chair? And he was like, oh, I can't believe that they didn't notice this. I'm like, no, I think you have to do that. It's not that like, this wasn't a screw up. You know what I mean? Like, this is how you get in the club.

It's a criminal organization. And you don't get in by being like, oh, I'm good at business. You know, like you get in by getting on video. And that's the other thing. You know, these intelligence organizations, one thing that seems to be pretty clear is they are extremely good at psychological. and I mean that for like their own people as well and knowing John for a long time and knowing his stories and talking with him so much on air off air you know he he got high up over

there yeah but it is so clear to me that they would have pegged him as hey he's he's a serious dude and he can accomplish serious missions but there's shit we cannot bring his way because he'll never stand for it that's why I've always I was always surprised that they tried to bring the enhanced interrogation to him. And of course, he famously said fuck off right away. But like, that's the lightest of what we're talking about here. Some of the other stuff I genuinely think he never saw because they wouldn't have brought a guy in like that. But the reality is all these intelligence organizations around the world, they have what are the definition of dark alliances? It's very, very strange. It's not okay. Like, I mean, well, look,

I'm not going to say I know how to run an intelligence organization. I'm just saying that like the stuff that we don't know is the stuff that you'd be like, oh yeah, that checks out. Right. You know, like stuff you'd be like, holy. I mean, these stories, like, this is definitely the part of the story I know the least about, but these like kind of increasingly convincing reports about like satanic rituals and ritual murders and stuff. Like what?

I know. It's the darkest. It's like, if you put it in a movie, they'd be like, it's not believable. Exactly. It's too dark. Yeah, there's stuff that I have had since the January 30. and really going through those emails. There's some stuff that is still not proven,

but the fact that now it's a possibility. Number one, I have to say that's a possibility. And number two, you got to apologize to some people who were like, yo, some of the shit's real. And I'd be like, do we have evidence? Well, now we got evidence. Yeah. You know, if there wasn't some before that I missed.

And it's just, I don't know, like, what do you think it is that gets a fellow human being who most of these people are obviously wealthy, had access to education, you know, obviously like intelligent individuals that way. Not that has anything to do with good or evil, but you would think there's some level of like, well, this seems fucking crazy. Like, what do you think it is that gets someone to push themselves over that cliff to do not even necessarily the worst shit like that, but some of this stuff, be it the sex trafficking

or, you know, just total manipulation of and abuse of minors and stuff? There's a lot. I think a lot goes into it. A long time ago, a whole other life, basically, I taught sex ed. I taught like a, I don't even get me, whatever, I had to read a bunch of stuff on this, right? Like, one of the things is that, like, pedophilia, like, apparently they're not a tremendous number of people who have, like, fantasies about sex with a child. Instead, what happens is a lot of people find adults troublesome, right? Like, you're in a equal power relationship, and you have to kind of negotiate.

It's a little bit of a dance, like, do we get to have sex or not, or do we get to do what I want to do or you want to do. But the people who end up with children are that power hungry, right? They're the ones who like can't stand guff, right? And this is exactly how the stories are, right? Like the anecdotes and the reports are like, you know, I said, give me a blowjob and you didn't. And so I'm going to slap you, right? Like, so to me, I think a lot of it is like these are blatantly power hungry people, right? They just can't fathom any, any sort of slowing down on the road from here to what they want, right?

Whether that's sex or a certain meal or to be on this vacation or whatever, right? They're just like, private jets. everywhere. We're just going, no delays. And so I think that's a big part of it. But then also, like a huge, huge factor in who's a pedophile is people who were victimized as children. And so in some of these cases, I think it's just there's like these, this is where it's kind of the European part of the story, I think, where there's like, I do think there are these like, you know, where did I see somebody rolled through just like all of the pedophiles who were around the royal family? Like, it's just the ones that we know about is.

A lot. So what's going on there? I think what's going on there is that it's absolutely the furthest thing from meritocracy. Your greatest fear in the world is that you would just like open the doors and everyone compete for the job, right? So you have to have, you know, somebody won the right to run the monarchy a gazillion years ago. And they're trying to pass that down through generations that have no business.

Like, they're just not worthy. Right. So, like, how do you keep that thing, that power structure together? And I think they've been using pedophilia. as like a repeated generational tool. And it works because if you abuse this one, then that one becomes an abuser. It's like, it's so sick.

But I think that in some of these people, I think are coming from that, right? There's just so many stories of effed up childhoods among these people. And then I guess there's, when we know the CIA has done a lot of research, I don't sure everyone tells on how to get people to do what you want. And this is one of the tools that they know about, right?

So presumably that's another driver. Yeah. No, I think everything you say there is not crazy, unfortunately. And I think there's something to it. And, you know, we have to now open our minds to some of these possibilities within power structures. And it's not to say, therefore, everyone who's associated with this, this or that is therefore guilty. But the air of suspicion around how things work needs to be very, very strong. strong moving forward from society because now we've seen some sort of lens into it.

But the other part with the oligarchs that you were talking about with how they would get the money offshore, I'm just knowing the investigation you ended up doing with Epstein that we're going to talk about in a few minutes, obviously you were able to tie a lot of this together. And my guy, Alessi Alamon, who Deef was telling you about earlier, who did the documentaries, He's like, you know, I turned him onto your work like three, four years ago, and that's what he was blown away with. He's like, Henry just was able to tie these different institutions and where the money's flown and all that. So obviously you got a baseline of that from work in these other stories. Can you give me, you know, without, I guess, like, confidential details or whatever, can you give me some examples of like how that would happen when you describe the money would be moved from the oligarchs through the Russian mob?

through intelligence agencies, through like Apollo. Can you just give like an example of that? So we have a baseline? Yeah. Well, a really well documented version of this is like Panama in the heyday of like cocaine, right? So they would literally collect money. They had a system of like, you know, they sell cocaine all over North America. And they'd be like, a married couple that lives in a house with a fence.

And like, and then, you know, all the people would drop off their money at that house and they'd accrued in the garage. And then they've purchased, I forget the name of it, but like one of these like freight companies. They purchased a, the drug dealers owned one of America's big freight companies. And they would like load up all this money. They take it to some airline. And I think they also invested in. It was like Eastern Airlines is one of them. And then fly it all to Panama.

And then when the money lands at Panama, there's like a, uh, a branch of practically every major global bank right there near the airport. So the Panamanian army protects the monies that goes right to like whichever bank you prefer. And then it's like boom, now it's in Citibank, right? Now it's in like whatever major institution, right? And later we learned that the CIA, like, you know, they were meeting with the people involved all the time, right? So I had someone sitting in the chair who did that. Yeah, see, there you go. There you go.

So there's that version of it. Okay. And then in Russia, it's a little different where, you know, basically you're, you're an oligarch and you've given, given the right to purchase, like in Prokroft's case, a giant, I think it's like the biggest nickel company in the world, Norl's nickel for a fraction of what it's worth. Then you take it over, you start running it, and you just start throwing off all these profits. And then I don't know what his banking habit was. I mean, he ran a bank before, so he probably had pretty good bank ties.

But you could go to Deutsche Bank. certainly you could walk into the Moscow office and say, hey, man, I've got like quite a lot of money that I'd rather have in another country. There are all these rules preventing this, but you could do, they got in trouble for this thing called mirror trades where basically you'd go in, let's say you'd go into the Deutsche, I think I have this right. You'd go to the Deutsche bank office and say, I own, you know, 500,000 shares of this Russian company that trades on the stock exchange and all of these facts are probably, wrong. Trades in on Stock Exchange somewhere else in Europe. And so you'd like sell them in Moscow. Meanwhile in another city, another person from the same bank would purchase an equivalent amount of stock at the same price. And so like because the bank trusts each other, like you really have just moved a whole crap ton of money out of Russia. And like people went to prison for this.

Like this was like a known thing that these global banks were facilitating. There's a million others. Actually, this book, Moneyland by Oliver Bullock is like... Money. I haven't heard of that one. Oh, it's good, man. It's good. Basically, you move the money into Moneyland. It's not in a country anymore. It just goes to Moneyland. Yeah, there it is. Yeah, that's a really good one. Shout out Oliver Bulla, you said. I think his Bullock, I think he's a... Moneyland. He's a great guy. The Inside Story of the Crooks and Kleptocrats who rule the world. And he wrote this in 2019 something tells me this is going to be like a harbinger of what was to come in a way wow he was a

big like there's several others but like he was one of the people who was like really like made me kind of understand better like I dare anyone to read that book and say that he's like a crazy person makes stuff like he's like very sober and evidence based that's that's what I liked about you too because when I was reading this it was funny like you'd be writing this amazing thing but then you'd be having a conversation with the reader. Like, I know this sounds crazy, but please, look at this source here. Look at this source here. Look at this source.

And then I'd go look at it. I'm like, God damn. He ain't fucking kidding, bro. Just bagged up like four layers. Damn. Well, thank you for being a careful reader. I feel like a lot of people are just like, I don't know. I don't know, man.

That sounds crazy. Like, you know, I just, it does. It just sounds crazy. And mostly I'm an anti-conspiracy theorist. Like, I am. Most of my career, I'm just like, people would call me with like, you're all gonna believe. Well, I'm like, guess what?

I don't think so. Like, I just don't buy it. This is the only story of ever encountered where it's like, no, the crazy version is the true version. Yeah, all of us classically trained conspiracy theories, as my friend Mark Gagnon says, start as full anti-conspiracy theories. And then something happens and we're like, wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait, where's that going? Holy shit. Yeah.

But you actually, my friend David Satter, I had him in for episodes 92 and 133, he is, he became the chief, the bureau chief for the financial times in the Soviet Union in 1976. He did? Yeah. Okay, so you're familiar. Oh, with the apartment bombings? Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's an eye-opener. Yeah, so he, that, I'm talking about an eye-opener. But he actually, there was a connection to you with him. because when I had him in, I was reading one of his books afterwards and he casually mentions this one-day war that happened. It was, I keep forgetting, I've told this on camera like three, four times. I keep forgetting to go re-look this up to make sure I get it all right. But it's, it happened in like Dagestan or something like that. And I want to say, 1999 when Putin was consolidating power. And basically some version of the Russian army or something flew in for an hour, shot a few things.

dropped a few bombs and then flew out and they were going to come back. But there was this negotiation that was, yeah, I think Dave saw on it right here, the August September 1999 invasion of Dagestan by Chechen-based militants led by Shemil Basayev and even Al-Qaitev triggered the second Chechen war. So that might not be the same one because this one like they were able to pull it back, whereas the Chechen wars lasted a while, but it was Daugistan. And essentially the way that this one was cooled down was once they pulled out, there was some sort of meeting that was negotiated with Russian leadership and then the other factions as well, where they went to, I believe it was Nice France. And he very casually put to attend a meeting of the minds at Adnan Khashoggi's house.

And I was like, it was like the Leo meme. I'm like, wait a minute. Wait, that's the guy. That's the guy. And I found out about him from your report. So let's get into it now. Let's do it because like you were revolutionizing some of these people that now everyone talks about that they weren't back in the day. So you as we said start this with I'm going to find a connection between Epstein and Apollo and then it goes, kabum. So just take me to day one. You mentioned where you were when Epstein died and you really started going after this. But like when did you realize, oh my God, this is way more than I was looking at? I mean, definitely an early concern of mine was this guy.

A. B. Cronguard. Buzzy. And I'm still blown away. I feel like his name should be in everybody's coverage of the Epstein story all the time. Agreed. And I can't even

probably remember off the top of my head all of the ties here. But let's just, to the best of our ability, 100% this guy is a CIA guy. And we know that he became, later in his career, he was appointed as the number three, like the executive director of the CIA

and oversaw like the RENG program. And and then he was the person who like gave all the deals to Blackwater. And then Blackwater put him on the board. Then he got in trouble with Congress because like the inspector general who investigated to see if it was crooked was his brother. His Buzzy's brother's nickname was Cookie.

And like they put cookie on the stand to like testify that his brother had nothing to do with Blackwater. And then they figured out during the course of the meeting his brother had been at Blackwater's annual meeting as a board member. Anyway, you know Eric Prince is sat in that chair. Oh my God. Yeah. He's one of the he didn't know any of this stuff, but he's one of the scariest out there. He well, don't get me started. So, but this guy, Buzzy, who is definitely in the CIA and later was on the Apollo board before all that was the banker who took Microsoft public. Like he's literally the man who like made Bill Gates rich. who made Steve Balmer rich, who made Paul Allen rich, and a bunch of other companies, too, over when other IPOs through his company. So, and there's another banker who was like, hey, during that period, he tried to recruit me to the CIA.

So I'm like, okay, so I have to believe the most likely thing is that this guy's been in the CIA since college. There's some evidence of that. He kind of had some Nixon ties and stuff early. But so that means Microsoft went public. via CIA. And it also means that when Apollo Global, when Leon Black was paying Epstein,

Apollo Global had a CIA person on the board, right? And later they had Jay Clayton, who had been a partner at Sullivan and Cromwell, which is kind of like notoriously the CIA's law firm. Yeah, that's Dulles' old law firm. Exactly right. Yep. Remember when I had Mike Yagley in here for episodes 343

and 351. And remember what he said that he used to do, allegedly used to do and doesn't still do in some ways, but he definitely probably still does about collecting your data and using it without you realizing it? And remember how he said that there are data brokers who make up one of the largest unseen industries on earth who are constantly doing this every day with your data that you don't even know about? Well yeah, that's kind of a problem. In Mike's case, he was looking at it from a national security perspective. In your case, you're looking at it from a privacy perspective, which is why you need to be using Protect My Data. Data brokers collect and sell your personal information online.

But Protect My Data comes in and removes it from 300 plus data broker sites to reduce spam, scams, and identity theft. And if you don't think it could happen to you, well, last year Americans lost an estimated $196 billion to fraud, which means there's also probably a lot we don't even know about thief. And no, we're not just talking about the daycares in Minneapolis. It's far beyond that. There's even estimates that up to 278 million people in the United States.

United States last year had their data compromised. This can include sensitive information like your name, number, home address, and income, and it's all happening without you even realizing it. So take back control of your privacy today. Visit protectmydata.com, link in my description below, and use code Julian to get 30% off all annual plans and remove your information from data broker databases. That's protect my data.com, link in description below, promo code Julian. So to me, I'm like, well, this is like kind of a big like there's no way to just tell myself that there's nothing going on here when like this guy is in the middle of it all so then i tried to like figure out like in the middle of what yeah that's we're still doing that you know still not totally didn't nail that you never get it

fully untangled no you never get it fully untangled but so you were you were essentially again starting with the ownership and then almost i'm trying to picture you doing this you're like okay let's draw Apollo global here in the middle Epstein right here in the middle with them we'll leave Epstein right there and you're like okay who are the people on their board ooh Buzzy Crongard who's he and then you're going like this yeah and creating all these new decision trees of like oh he's connected to this guy and that guy how do you then how do you put that all together and bring that back to

Epstein well so pretty quickly I'm trying to remember this time too it got to Michael Milken Jacksleburton Lambert Oh, please explain this to people. Okay. So everybody at Apollo, like Apollo was born out of the explosion of Drugs of Bram-Lam-Lambert. So it's like it's not, you don't have to take my word forth. This is a continuation of that. So Michael Malkin was a trader at a big, you know, Drugs-Lberna-Lam-Brandert

as a big New York City-based investment bank, I guess. And, but for some reason, he convinced them that he should move his operation. to Beverly Hills. Weird. And then they brought in like a bunch of billionaires who had felt rejected by the other banks, right? So they had like questionable money. Some of them kind of blatantly had mob ties. Some of them were, you know, we should talk about Ivan Boski.

Let's not forget that. Ivan Boski is very important. We'll pull up as what to be. Well, let's do that right now. Ivozky is a great example. Ivan Boski talked to Michael Moken every day. They would get up, Michael Malk, and got up early, and they talked every day.

Yeah, it's also kind of, by the way, like, you say the Beverly Hills thing is nuts, like, why would you do that? It's also, not to say there aren't some big asset management firms, like I believe Pimcoe and some other ones that are based out of the West Coast, but you got to remember, market opens here in the U.S. at 930 Eastern.

So these guys, you know, you're three hours behind out there, and you're in an industry that's like, you're supposed to be. getting ready for the market at 7 a.m. They're getting ready at 4 a.m. You know, it doesn't make sense. But there are the headquarters of giant arms companies and there are lots of beautiful women. Well, they had, they would have these parties at the-Boski took a header last year. Yeah, he did. Yeah. So, okay, this guy, this is, every single Rocky turnover has like more interesting things.

But okay, so Ivan Boski was about as close as anyone got to Malcolm Moken and he was a funnel. He had a bunch of money from before, which was very, very eyebrow raising how he got rich. But he was from, I don't think it would be as trash to say possibly a mob family in the Midwest. His dad owned, like, strip clubs. Right. Then he went to college and he, I don't think, I think it's, this is interesting. I think it's been removed from Wikipedia, but after college, he went to Iran because he had a great Iranian friend from, from, from, from, from, from, you know, from, high school. I think I'm high school. And he lived in... And this is in the 60s? Yeah, I think so. He lived in Iran for a while. And then he came back and then he got a pretty nice job in New York

for the Rothschilds. Yeah, L.F. Rothschilds. I don't think he ever graduated from college, but the Rothschilds were like, how he seems like a great guy. Listen, they're really good at at spotting talent as ever looked. So then he has all this money from all these crazy investments he makes Oh, did you see this by the way, Henry? Like, you're spot on. Although he lacked an undergraduate degree,

he was admitted to Detroit College of Law, now Michigan State University of Law and graduated from law. How do you? Yeah. You don't get a law. Maybe you do and I'm like fucked up right now. I'm not aware of anybody else doing that.

Yeah. And I understand he also, maybe it says it here, but he gave a bunch of money to Harvard later And so they kind of like, like, they knew how to pick them. He had the ability to say something that Harvardy that sounded like nobody went to Harvard. And he like, he didn't go in any of those schools. Yeah. But so then he like, well, so he has all this Iranian connections, Iranian and a ton of unexplained money.

Okay. Then I have not looking to this, but Whitney Webb, who I think, I think as far as I can tell, she's a genius. Like maybe this, I haven't gone, I haven't, it's hard to verify almost anything she says. But I think she's dead on. But she's like, oh, well, the CIA was moving all this money through Iran, especially after Iran contract. There's also a bunch of like – That's later. But yes.

Reports of like Ari Ben Manashi, like, was saying that basically like the Israelis made lost money and they had to bring it through Iran. So like, anyway, a whole bunch of money came from Iran from this guy into Michael Milken's big pot of investor money. Interesting. So then – but then they started this thing. Leon Black was a young employee there. He was kind of seen as a near-do well. near Dewell. Well, he had a party, you know, that yelled at him. You come in late. They're the prostitutes in the office and stuff. And, but his dad had friends who were all

investors in Juxelburn and Lambert. His dad, Eli Black, had purchased United Fruit, which was like famously the CIA company. And then jumped or was pushed from the, I think the 44th floor of what was then called the Pan Am building. Was it now? I think he did jump. I think he had really fucked up. That's one I actually think he he committed. I mean, maybe he was pushed. Maybe. I don't know. I don't know. He's not, well, he didn't, it didn't turn out well. It did not turn out well. Yeah. Yeah. There's the MetLife building. Well, now it's met life, but it was the Pan Am building at the time. Yeah. It's like, I walked there every day. Well, look up, you know?

So, I didn't know that though. Leon Black was a near-do-well. considered like a little bit of a fuck up. Yeah, he was a little bit of a fuck up. And somehow, like that guy, I think his name's Jesse Cornbluth, the journalist, who's written a lot. Jesse Cornblis wrote this thing that I think everyone should think about more, which is that according to him, Epstein targeted Leon Black like back then. It was according to Leon Black.

There was something about Leon Black that was especially attractive to Epstein back then. I guess this would be the 80s. Yeah, I got a guess. So then Milken, was he was like the junk bonds guy he was it well that's what they say he's a junk boy guy but like it said people on wall street that wasn't really his defining thing his defining thing was that they pulled together these like rogue billionaires or and and then leon black invented this thing called the highly confident letter so basically they would they would write a letter

like pan am and say hey you know we have enough money to take over like you know they would purchase however corporate raider stuff yeah corporate raider stuff and pan am be like, well, I don't think you have that much money. So they would get, rather than some laborious process of like putting all the money into my account, they would, Leon Black had mentioned like, well, we just, we have a bunch of billionaires and we might be able to get it from any one of them. And so we're just going to write a letter that we're highly confident we can get the money. And it worked. So then they started writing these highly confident letters and like taking over a whole bunch of big businesses, right? It's like robbing a bank with a note. It's like robbing a bank with a note.

And then once you get control, I think this is an important part of the story is like, it's one thing to be an investor. Let's say you're, you got some, let's say you are Israeli intelligence and you really do have some money that you're worried someone's going to take from you. So you're going to give it to somebody, maybe Avamboski,

and he's going to give it to Michael Milken, and then he's going to invest it in something that has a CEO, and like you might feel like you don't have a lot of control over that money at that point, right? But two ways that can get way better for you. One is if you get control of the end company, because you didn't just buy 20% of it, but you bought 51% of it.

Now you're in a lot stronger position. But two is if all those people along the way are on video doing charitable things, right? Like, that's another way to make sure that no one's going to steal your money in the end, right? Just like, hey, guys, are we all good here? Are we all? No one's going to, you know? So I think something like that, you know, I'm not sure I described it, chain of custody perfect, but I think like roughly those elements seem to be together.

And then once you have that group of people with a lot of money and all on video doing terrible things, well, now we don't just have to limit ourselves to buying like publicly traded American stock, right? Like that same crew is ready to go. Like you can get into any industry in the world. And you're kind of advantaged in that you're like kind of locked together in this way. I might be overthinking this, but in the process of basically like schlossing the money around, Are they also creating effectively like shell companies to do this? Oh yeah, tons.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I'll tell you, okay, this is Lara. You know, so like, well, why wouldn't you have drug money in this mix, right? Right. It's one of the biggest industries in the world.

And drug dealers very much would like to get their money in. And like, that was another, that's another big moment for me was like the church committee, John Kerry, when he was like a young, newly elected official ran this committee. that Wait, John Kerry was on the church committee? I think I'm totally

lying. I think that the church committee was before. I think that John Kerry ran the committee that looked into

the cocaine trade in the early 80s. And they like... Investigating himself. But he had this guy Millian Rodriguez who was an accountant for the mob

who got busted. And Millian Rodriguez sat in that chair. You can read all testimony online and they just like, he's like, here's how it works. And you know,

and we, he's like, we have, We have invested in like every blue chip thing you can imagine. It's like, you know, the most mom and pop apple pie American stuff like we own, right? And he's like, you guys think you busted somebody and like, you know, you got a guy who's Spanish is his first language and you think you got cleaned up now. He's like, let me tell the people coming after me.

Like they all went to Harvard. And they're like, you know, super buttoned up and like this money's not stopping. Right. So I think you kind of, that's what happened, right? Well, at least they're putting it back into the American economy. I can appreciate that. There you go. That's the win.

Jesus Christ. What was the guy's name, the accountant? Milian Rodriguez. Milian Rodriguez. So yeah, you mentioned it, though. The church committee was in the 70s. So I guess what you're talking about is like the early 80s or something with Kerry, but it's similar. It's interesting, though, with the church committee, Frank Church, I want to say his first name was Frank.

He put that together and then his primary. Yeah, that's how that goes. Yeah. Nobody likes that guy. Very, very fascinating. Nobody likes that guy. Did you find something deep with this dude? Yeah, it was Frank Church.

I'm trying to find millions. It's like M-I-L-I-A-N. And maybe John Kerry. I think you can find an on-true who probably. But you said he was an accountant for the mob? Yeah. So they obviously had him. And he like flipped as a witness kind of.

He like, I think that he was like getting into his plane. He liked to fly around to live in South Florida. And he was getting his plane and they like arrested him. And there was like pounds like okay in the plane. So they did like this Frank Pantanjali thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gotcha. Okay.

I haven't heard of that one. That's interesting. We'll see if we can find it. That's a little bit of a... I want to make it hard for Dief, you know? A what? I want to make it hard for Dief. I want to do to work.

If it's out there, he'll find it. Okay, good, good. The first podcast... There you go. Ram on that already. Fucking unreal. The first podcast we went to do where Dief was taken over the seat,

we had Mike Ben's in here. Yeah. Who's like a document dump kind of guy. And before we start, Ben's go, like, like, looks at me and I'm explaining what I explained to you where I'm like, Defe can pull up anything in you on the screen. He's like, okay, great.

And then he literally goes like this. And he goes, turns to Deve. He's like, oh my God. I just want to apologize before we start. When I was on Joe Rogan last month, you know, they were like, dude, you asked for too many links. So just if it's too much, whatever. And Deaf's like, we're good.

We got it. And I'm like, oh, we are so fucked. This is first podcast. Every fuck. I was like half the time. I'm like looking over here. And then the podcast, finish up and Mike Benz went over and shook his hand first.

Nice. He's like, that was amazing. That's got a good day for you. But all right, we got it. So this is from, yeah, July 22nd, 1987, drug trafficker testifies before Senate committee on, what was that title of these? Sorry, go. On CIA, Nicaragua and Contra involvement in drug trade.

Oh, so, Henry, this might have been, maybe I'm fucking up the timeline, but this might have been when they did the official special process. prosecutor related to Contra? Remember that? Because some of that overlapped with when Reagan had left office. I just don't know how long it went. There was like a podcast. A hangover. Yeah, there was a podcast done by what, oh my God, what's it? Serial or something like that, like one of those where they do the series. Yeah. I listened to a few years ago and they were explaining this whole thing. But yeah, in late June, the Senate Foreign Relations Committee went into a secret two-day session to take testimony from Cuban American Ramon

Milan Rodriguez. He is currently serving a 35-year sentence in a federal prison reportedly in North Carolina, and it goes through who's interviewed. Milan Rodriguez said he was one of the supervisors of money laundering for the Ochoa Escobar cocaine cartel in Colombia handling up to 200 million a month. On camera, he stated that he had been asked to launder through a Miami company cocaine money destined for the Contras. Wow. Wow. Wow. Later, Milan Rodriguez told the Senate committee that the contact was Felix Rodriguez. Why does he always come up? He comes up on every podcast.

Rodriguez, a Bay of Pigs veteran, had long been associated with CIA counterinsurgency projects. Most recently, he was assigned to the Ilocongo Air Base in El Salvador to supervise air supply drops to the Contras. Wow. So they're just, it's all tied together. I mean, yeah. It's crazy. So Drexel Burnham Lambert, you hinted at this earlier. It blew up.

Blew up. On Black Monday, effectively. And then like thereafter, because now that had to do with the junk bonds, right? Yeah. It was Giuliani. Giuliani went after Michael Milken. And I don't remember exactly even what they got them on. But the part that interested me was there's a thing I haven't really written about.

It's too confusing. But so they owned. you know, Drexel owned tons of bonds and tons of different things, and a lot of it really was garbage. But some of it was super valuable. And so, you know, they were forced to liquidate all this stuff and Malcolm goes to prison and everyone's out of a job. And then this French bank, Credit Leone, which super associated with Robert Maxwell, probably it seems to be one of the places that like this, you know, this big ball of offshore untrackable money was like an early beachhead of it was credit Leon A.

According to the video that used to be on the Apollo global website, it's Leon Black saying like, I just got a call out of the blue from these guys in France. They wanted to give us $4 billion. And so I flew over there and said, no, you have to give me $8 billion. I want that call. Yeah. I want that call. That's how Apollo was founded.

And then what they don't put on the video in the Apollo website is that in the aftermath, they basically snapped up a lot of the assets that Milken used. to own because Leon Black knew kind of which ones were the good ones. Right. So he bought him low. But then they got, there was like a massive investigation of whatever happened there. And like, and he was maybe going to get in real trouble. And I can find it. I have some notes on somewhere, but like, but the people who were the investigators of that, and this is back at the founding of Apollo were like, like, they're, they're livid still. Right. Like, they were like,

like, they found bad evidence of bad stuff. happening they did not get to seek justice. Are you getting at like some sort of insider trading type stuff or worse? I don't even know. It was more just like there's all these arcane rules around like, you know, what you have to disclose in the investment community and all my eyes like gloss over at that part. Right. That's the other part I'm like, I'm a basketball writer.

I don't know what you guys are talking about, but boy, these people sure are mad. Yeah, I wonder what it could be because bonds get weird because it's, you know, there's all different types of them. But a lot of times you're buying like local bonds for counties and cities and stuff or you're buying federal bonds for governments. And I don't, I don't know. I was never, as I worked on Wall Street for four years and I knew about insider trader cases and things like that that were happening with equities. But I never, Bonds was such a weird world because it's so boring to your point that most people are just like, I don't know. Yeah. What are we doing here?

And that I can imagine there's all kinds of shady shit that happens there. This is where this is the worst. This is my memory from years ago on a topic about which I'm a complete buffoon. But I sort of have a feeling it might have been something like as they liquidated Drexel, they said that these things were worth nothing. And then they went and bottom up because Leon knew they weren't worth nothing. I think it might have been something like that. In communities across Canada, hourly Amazon employees earn an average of over $24.50 an hour. Employees also have the opportunity to grow their skills and their paycheck by enrolling in free skills training programs for in-demand fields like software development and information technology.

Learn more at AboutAmazon.ca. Almost like he had a source. Yeah, yeah. Someone that knew something. I do wonder about that because Milken's still a billionaire today. He did like three or four years in prison, you know, he was worldwide speaking tours and everything. So it worked out for him.

But I do wonder about the whole sacrificial lamb aspect to where it's like, ooh, we got a lot of things that we can work with here. But there's too much attention on this. this is the guy everyone knows. Let's give him up. You get too hot and you're no longer useful. Yeah. Almost like they did DeBstein, by the way.

Yeah. Yeah. But then it's like, okay, so who are the breadcrumbs behind that? So you correctly point out the credit Leonese, Leonet, is that how you say? I think the S is silent at the end of the French word. I don't have a good ear for French, but credit Leonet, correct me in the comments. They call them up out of the blue and say, we'll give you $4 billion or something like that. And you mentioned that they were connected to Robert Maxwell,

Gieland's father. So he had been doing his banking there for his companies for years? So it's very confusing what he was doing. But I think that started to make sense for me when I read, I want to say Craig Unger. Have you read any Craig Unger? Craig Unger is a baller. Like he's a no-joke journalist.

He's written about a lot of stuff that's in and around the story. But I think it was Craig Unger who has. had a story about Robert Maxwell helping Russian, like the KGB basically was like the Soviet Union's going to break up. And we don't like, we might lose the nation, but we don't want to lose the KGB. So we're going to offshore all this money, put it aside, keep it safe, and then Russia can do whatever it does, and then we'll bring the money back. And Robert Maxwell apparently created like 600 companies to like hold all this money outside of Russia, outside of the Soviet Union, right? And so I think about that. And now during the same period, when credit lending out all this money in a

crazy way to Apollo, they were also lending it to other companies. Adidas was one. But the biggest creditor was Robert Maxwell. And another one was Steve fucking Bannon. Steve Bannon got credit lieney money and moved his investment operation to Beverly Hills during the same period. And imagine that. I know. And then, you know, finally the investigator took a while, but the investigators were like, you know, we got to look into this Credit Leon A thing. And then the beautiful, giant old, like revered building in the middle of Paris that was

the headquarters of Credit Lain A just burned to the ground right before the investigators, we're going to knock on the door. And so, well, we're going to know what happened to Credit Leone. Was there a good investigation into that burning? I don't think there was. There were, people did go prison, like, not for the burning, but for running Credit Leone. in a fraudulent way. Like people, the executives did get in trouble.

But $20 billion, never found it. Just went missing. Whoa. Yeah. Fire ravages French Bank headquarters, May 5th, 1996. Remember? Audio's coming soon. There's a 96th with it.

Fire swept through the headquarters of France's beleaguered. Creditly, it was already beleaguered, too. Funny. Credit Leonet's Bank, sat. Sunday, injuring at least 23 people, most of them firefighters. The blaze began in a computer room at around 830. Hard drives do burn very effectively. I've heard that.

Okay. At 8.30 a.m. and about 300 firefighters had it under control nine hours later. Wow. And so did this end the bank? Were they done after that? I think so. We should double check that. Yeah, let's check that.

I should have credit Leon A history. because they still had, even with the fire, I imagine they still had assets. So someone had to buy them up, like they bought up, like Barclays bought up Bear Stearns. Right. Was that it? No, JP Morgan had Bear Stearns. JP Morgan brought up Bear Stearns. Barclays bought up Lehman Brothers.

Just like you said. Yep. Credit Leonas did not technically go out of business, but was acquired and absorbed by Credit Agricolae in 2003 following severe financial distress in the early 90s. The bank was rebranded as Elgined. CL in 2005, which continues to operate your subsidiary of Credit Agriculli Group. This is another way that things get lost to history and rewritten. It's so simple, but just name changes. Totally. You know, like people don't think about where stuff comes from. Like, you can follow the

Rockefeller's back and realize like, oh, JP Morgan Chase. It's got JP Morgan in there, but it doesn't have Rockefeller in there. Totally. You know what I mean? But David Rockefeller was like a guy who made them a powerhouse when it was, I forget what it was called, but it was called something else in the 40s, 50s, and 60s and 70s. So when Buzzy, our CA guy was running a bank that the one that took Microsoft Public, it was called Alex Brown. Weird name. It was like Alex.

Space Brown. I don't know why it's that way, but that's how it is. And then things got real confusing and kind of involved Russia, but then they sold it to bankers trust. And then bankers trust immediately became like a giant. scandal that is not well told, but that involved Russia for sure. And then Bankers Trust quickly became Deutsche Bank, which created this acronym D-B-A-B, which is Deutsche. What is it, D-B-B-that doesn't make sense. It made a little acronym of like the new,

this is the new part of Deutsche Bank that used to be Bankers-Trust. And if you search that in the Epstein files, like, that's where Epstein banked. Like, that's, that's, that's, that's, like, that's on files of Epstein banking transactions. Um, right now. Like, this is where they banked. So part of me was like, I don't know. What does that mean? I don't know.

Does that mean the money we know about? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But definitely like those bankers were the ones that he had emailed with a lot. And that's where he got, uh, power of attorney over Leon Black's accounts, right? is in like this little. Wait, he got power of attorney over those?

I don't remember that. So he had, you know, kind of blanket power of attorney for Leslie Wexner. Yes. Only from this most recent foul dump did we learn that there's like emails from these Deutsche bank bankers. And they're basically saying like, you know, the paperwork is in like, you know, so that Jeffrey Epstein now has authority to trade on behalf of Leon Black through Deutsche Bank.

I think you're spot on with what you said earlier. It's the compromatted. Look for the compromise on the compromat. And they just create a line. And Jeffrey Epstein's like, he looks like a didler. All right. Got him. That toupee ain't passing in 1979.

I do want to play with Leon Black's dupeie, like toss it around. But that's, wow. I just learned a scandalous thing today. That seems like something I should have known before. but apparently the redactions are not so great in some of these horrible pictures, which I frankly haven't looked up very much. But apparently Leon Black's penis is unredacted. I didn't want to know that.

That's the facts, man. I don't want to see that. He is accused, and I have to say accused, of some heinous things. I mean, stuff that just awful, awful things, man. He's the proof that the... judicial system is not working. Yes. Right?

Like the fact that he hasn't been touched. I mean, you paid like $61.5 million to the Virgin Islands for something. For something. You know, they investigated a bunch, hauled him in and settled. But, yeah, I mean, he's got all the, he checks every box of badness, right? Yeah. Funding Epstein's operation, credibly accused by multiple accusers. How about paying him 170 million?

dollars over five years for estate planning now Leon Black today is worth 13.3 billion yeah he's worth a lot of money there is no one on earth maybe with the exception of Saudi oil guys Vladimir Putin and Elon Musk who should ever be paying someone 170 million dollars for estate planning no there's no one on earth I don't care how rich you are right like what the fuck is that have we ever traced what that really is um oh it's this one

would you pull up thief you want to pull your mic in d'if's just fucking rolling over here yeah he's going to hold I wanted to look up those Deutsche Bank emails to see if I could find them but instead I found this this is a list of companies that they're

requesting to close on July 8th 2019 and you got some Epstein shells in there. Wait a second. Who's request, go up? Who's requesting it? Kimberly Hart.

Kimberly Hart to Stuart Oldfield. Stuart Oldfield is a Deutsche Bank banker. Okay. There you go. You're on it. So C-Ced Andrew Gallivan, Don Forbes, Daphne Kales,

who may be their Deutsche Bank do? I don't know. And then, so Darren Indyke was his attorney, I believe. And this is urgent, need to close accounts ASAP. Please, and that's a day

after he's arrested, right? Can we check that? He was arrested, I want to say, like, July 7th. I hope I'm not making that out. What day was he? Well, this is a... July 6th, 2019. So two days afterwards. This is a fast. So this is probably like Deutsche Bank PR coming along with like you guys. Get this shit off the balance sheet. What are the JSC interiors? That's what I would name a shell company. LSJ E, LLC. Wait, LS. Jaye Jeffrey Epstein, L.S. Short for Leslie? Seems like it's got to be someone with an S last name.

Or it could be like L.S. like Leslie. I don't know. I'm just speculating people. I'm with you. Mort Inc. Neptune LLC. N-E-S-L-L-L-C. There it is Zorro Management, Zorro LLC, referring to Zorro Ranch. Wow. That's a hot find there. Jay Epstein Virgin Islands Foundation. Okay. I was just asking about someone, about black though.

Have we ever figured out what the fuck that $170 million is for? For real. Well, okay, so I think we, I think just the most rational, sober version of events here is that Epstein was running a compromise operation on behalf of a bigger group, right?

It wasn't just for him. Yeah. To me, this was something like, Of course, this is, this is for them, right? Like, it seems like, you know, it's not even in dispute that this was to fund his operation. It did fund his operation, right? So, I don't know who ultimately controls that process, but it seems to me pretty clear that there's been very bad people who were business with Leon Black, and he's a guy who ends up

holding the bag sometimes, right? Steve Hoffenberg, before he died, was an important source for me. Oh, you talk with him a bunch? Like a shit ton. Yeah. So he was the Tower's financial thing with Jeff. Can you explain that for people who weren't familiar? Apparently it was the biggest Ponzi scheme of all time.

And they were bad people. I mean, Steve Hoffenberg, no choir boy. But they were running this giant Ponzi scheme. And he met Epstein through Douglas Lease, I believe. The British arms dealer. And Lees was basically like this guy's influential wizard with no moral compass. And Hoffmanberg's like, great, I could use a guy like that. And, and, and, and Hoffenberg had this weird, like, honor among thieves thing where he just

wouldn't rat him out. Mm. But from Hoffenburg's point of view, like, Epstein did something. The Hoffenberg didn't well understand it in real time. And Hoffenberg did, I think, 18, 20 years, something like that. And, uh, and got out a little ticked, right? He was a little like, like, you know, his view is that their scam enriched Epstein tremendously. Mm-hmm.

And, like, you know, got him on and started on his way. and Hoffenberg did all the time, right? I think Hoffenberg was a mark. I think that's another one of those. Like, I don't know that, but when I've looked at that case, it's like he was such a mark. And he bought the New York Post right before he went away, too. That's the game on.

Okay, let me tell you this. There's a crazy, no one in the world except you, Jillian, and you, D, if you care about this. But, like, there's a letter in the Epstein files, which is Hoffenberg in like, you know, I think of mine in 2019, writing a letter to like some authority somewhere, basically saying, like, hey, if you guys remove Jeffrey Epstein from this business operation,

we have a guy ready to take his job, and that guy's name is Don Engel. Like, Don Engel is the man who supplied the women at the parties at Druxleborn and Lambert. What? All right. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. When was that sent?

Let's look it up. Is this in J-mail? Like, this is from the dumps? I think you should find it. Like, E-N-G-E-L is the guy's last name. E-N-G-E-L. So when was that letter written? I think it was 2019-ish, something like that.

So it was a throwback, TBT. Yeah, it was a throwback. I remember those parties somewhere Bill Kun is like, oh, they were great. I don't think Engel at that age would have been the guy you'd want running that party. All right, he'll keep, oh, we got some? No, I'm trying to find. That's the spelling you want? Yeah, E-N-G-E-L.

No, let's look at that. if we want to buy something, Dave. What's going on in a can? We can dream, right? Or look up Hoffenberg, I guess. It's probably the easier thing to look up. Yeah, yeah. That's probably what I did.

That's how you spell it, right? Yeah, Steve Hoffenberg. So he was still coordinating with Epstein in 2015. No, not with Epstein. He was... Why is he on emails with Leslie Groff? Can we hit that Leslie Groff one, January 22nd, 2015? Steve Hoffenberg left me a two-minute message.

Go fuck yourself, Jeff. He is going on a... on about how he can help you. Has feds lined up? Your banks lined up. Brad Edwards lined up. Brad Edwards being the victim's attorney. He says, I should be careful as well. I save the message if you. Wow, what a find. That's a wild email. Hoffenberg is an interesting guy, man. He really got super excited about what I was doing. And he was like really want to because he was like, He was like, it's a finance, like, it's the biggest financial crime of all time. And everyone's talking about sex.

He's like, but it's just a, it's a mistake. Right. And so he was trying to help me. But he was very, like, every third call, he was like, you know, I need you to do is like go raise like four million dollars and we'll split it. And then we'll like make a documentary. And I'm like, dude, I'm not like, well, he's dead now. Quote, quote Bill Gates. Well, he's dead.

That's not happening. So I don't work out. Yeah. That's great. All right. I want to come back to Hoffenberg with you. But the way he put that, that's so interesting because I don't know. Like I've been trying to make sense of this like everyone else.

And what it seems to me is that sex trafficking was the doorway to compromise, which was then the doorway to dirty money and funneling money altogether, which was then the door. And this goes back to what you were saying at the beginning with the oligarchs, which was then the doorway to like, I don't know, secret societies, if you will, arm's stealing. Yeah. That's kind of the funnel up. And then you have the guys like Koshoggi and Doug Lies, I can't speak to like the sex trafficking, but Koshoggi was involved with all the above. Jeffrey Epstein was clearly involved with all the above. And so, you know, they use a mark like Hoffenberg to get there, to get to the money.

And this is something I was thinking about the other day. I don't know if you ever came across this in any of your work, Henry. But Bernie Madoff had an office in the lipstick building on 53rd, like 53rd and 5th, something like that, don't quote me on that. Third. Yeah, between second and third, something like that. So there's no connections between Bernie Madoff and Jeffrey Epstein. I've never been able to find one yet.

Yeah. They ran in the same elite New York City circles for the better part of at least two decades. That's very interesting to me that you can't find anything connecting the two of them. Oh, like it was managed. Is that what you're saying? I'm not saying that they work together. I'm saying that there could have been some sort of like they both have a job to do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's there's, there's, I'm also interested in these like, just super audacious criminals, right? Like, um, we mentioned Eric Prince, right? Eric Prince went to the Senate Intelligence Committee and basically just told him the fuck off. Like, I mean, he was like scoffing that he would have to answer their questions. You know why? I would like to know why.

because they I'll take his side on this they they committed a crime and they didn't pay for it they outed him as a knock okay so the head of CIA Leon Panetta went to the same Senate Intelligence Committee I believe it was the same Senate Intelligence Committee and outed him as a knock and if I'm remembering the story correctly then they went public with it it was reported that way a knock is a non-official cover it's like the deepest form of a CIA spy and And, you know, I put contracts on his head. He already had some, but that made things extremely difficult for him. And that was his, I actually understand that one.

That was his fuck you moment. And that was also in the same era where they fucked over the Blackwater Four with that whole case, which was if you actually look into that case and what that was, I'm not saying those guys were like the best trained guys ever. Yeah. But it was such total bullshit. Yeah. And that's why they were eventually part. and they should have never been in prison. So he had both of those things happen at that time.

And obviously, like Eric's been around. There's no doubt he's been around a lot of interesting things for sure involved with intelligence and all that. So I can't speak to all those things. But on those two issues, he's very much like, fuck you. And he was in Special Forces with Buzzie's son. Was he really? Yeah.

That's where they're. I'm going to have to ask about that next time. Yeah. So, okay, but maybe he's not a good example. But like, let's say that the Senate Intelligence Committee, was unfair to me, right? I would still have to be a little bit differential to them,

and the less they punished me further, right? To me, Eric Prince took this tone that was like, what are you going to do about it? Right? And maybe it's because he's mad, but also I think it's, because he's, he felt safe doing that, right? Which to me a little bit like these, you know, Hoffenberg buying the New York Post,

like you are full on Ponzi schemer and you're getting like millions from like people's insurance funds or whatever that you're never going to get back, but you're just like holding press conferences. Right. Right. Like there's like a, it's kind of brazen, right? And and that like I'm starting to think that that's a little bit of a tell that you're like, what does this word mean?

Like connected. Connected. Right? Like if you feel good, being like, I'm like, yeah, I fucking fuck you. All this stuff. Like I'm also, yeah, let's get my makeup right. You know, let's get this perfect. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like that's a weird, that's a very strange position to take. Like it's a next level criminality of like, do it on TV. Oh, I agree. You know what I mean? Like the word you use is right, brazenness of it. Yeah, yeah. Those people interest me. That's like, it's like, why, like where do you get off doing that, you know?

Did Hoffenberg, he first contacted you, you said, versus you contacting him? I don't remember, but I, maybe I emailed him. I think I might have emailed him. I found an email address somewhere, I think is what it was. And then he read about the first time I talked to him, he was like a mile a minute was just like he was a huge fan of what I was doing. He really was. And like he really wanted. I think he felt just so ripped off by Epstein.

And he kept he was always like this is the, you know, this is the biggest crime of all time. And it's Epstein and his large group. Like he would never, he always had Epstein and his large group. And at one point I was looking at these SEC filings of like the Apollo, the three Apollo founders have had accounts that when they. they were principles of Apollo, their personal accounts have to be disclosed publicly, right? So this is Black, Harris, and who's the third? Rowan, who runs Apollo now, Mark Rowan. And it's BRH Holdings.

Epstein is in the files emailing Leon Black saying this is by far your biggest asset. Was the BRH agreement. So the agreement has many parts, but like one of the accounts you could see in the SEC filings really clearly was in the Caribbean. I forget which country. And it's $10 billion to sitting in account. And I mentioned this. I had a lot of questions for Steve Hoffenberg, some of which were about like crime

and some of which were just about like Wall Street. You know, because I just like didn't know how these things work. But he knows a lot about it. But he was basically, he was like, yeah, that's the, that's the bag. You know, he's like, this is not, they didn't start this, right? This has been, this has been going on. This is a, this is a decades old crime. And just like, that's where the money is now.

you know but it's like didn't start with that most people think mushrooms are either psychedelic or functional but there's actually a third category the mushroom I'm talking about is called Aminita muscaria the red one with the white spots you've seen in art and folklore like alice in Wonderland forever it's not psilocybin it's not a traditional psychedelic for me it's way more grounding at lower doses it puts you in this calm focused almost flow state headspace some people even refer to it as

nature's wine which isn't a perfect analogy but it's pretty close Sometimes when I'm really wired from a long day, I'll take a Blue Lotus extract capsule and I sleep so well. It is relaxing, sedating it away without you feeling like you're drunk or anything like that. And the reason I even felt comfortable trying this is because of my friends at Amantara. If you've looked into Aminita at all, you know the space is full of sketchy gas station mushroom products, synthetic knockoffs, fake lab reports, and more. It's messy. Amantara is the opposite of that.

They've served over 50,000 customers and their sourcing is clean, lab tested and transparent. No synthetic analogs, no mystery blends, no weird research chemicals. They also have the largest selection of Aminita products that I've seen at the best prices compared to what's out there. Also, their shipping is fast, their support team actually responds, and their site is packed with educational guides and real dosing info, so you're not guessing. So if you'd like to check out Amatora's products for yourself, you can go to www.mantara.com slash go slash Julian that link is in my description below and use code jd 22 for 22% off your first order once again that's www. www. amantara.com slash go slash julian link in my description below use code jd 22 at checkout

for 22% off your order now there's one thing I keep forgetting to bring up but I feel like this should be brought up it's a little bit of a tangent point but it's related to what you're saying you mentioned those three founders of Apollo so black rowan and Harris obviously Harris has owned my sixers for the last fucking 15 years which is 14 and a half years too many so please sell the team but he is in these files which is a bad look and he knows Jeffrey Epstein and he's meeting with him and met with him at his Manhattan townhouse and all that the thing about Harris I do have to give him and maybe there's more this story and I won't have to give them anything, but he co-founded the company and he was

Leon Black was the CEO. He was always viewed as the heir apparent. Like he would take over his CEO when Leon stepped aside. And obviously he became a billionaire in this process, Josh Harris. And it was his lifelong dream to run that company that he helped build and found. And after the Epstein stuff started coming out in 2019 internally at Apollo, he took a stand. and told Leon Black, you got to fucking step down. This is bullshit. And as a result, was pushed out of the company, which he aspired and dreamed to always lead. And you don't hear that.

I will give him that. You don't hear that from a lot of people that are anywhere around this guy or around this case, actually taking some sort of moral stand where there's some line in the sand where they're like, this is bullshit and losing something in the process. It's not, you know, he's got $8 billion to cry into, but still, like, you know, is there more to that? Am I missing something there? Or is that effectively what you heard happened? So, I don't, did he use the Epstein News to bump off the king so he could be the king?

Possible. Or did he use it because he was upset about it, right? Like, I don't know, but my problem here is, like, when they swear you in, they say, do you swear to tell the truth the whole truth, right? And this is where, like, we're failing on all fronts. Like right now when people are getting grilled about this, whether they're in the media or in front of the congressional committee or whatever, the game is, can I catch you? And so you have to deflect and deflect. Like, no, no, no. Like, we're never going to get those.

We're never going to paint this picture through these little dumb sparring matches in the last five minutes. We need people. I need Josh Harris. To me, Josh Harris is a dirtbag unless he could just tell me what happened, make it make sense. And there is, there are two things in the files that I think he needs to really explain. One is there was a multi-hour breakfast with Bill Gates at Jeffrey Epstein's house, after which Jeffrey Epstein emailed did you have fun? Like, I don't like that.

I don't like that either. Like, explain that, right? And there are, there's an email with Jeffrey Epstein emailing Leon Black's assistant, Melanie Spinella, saying, you know, I've been in touch with these, like this lawyer and this banker to arrange, I forget the amount, but something like $2.4 million. payment from Josh Harris to you. Whoa, can we pull that up? 2.4 million?

It's some amount like that. It's more than a million. If you look up, Melanie Spanilla, you're going to get a lot of, Josh, yeah, there you go. It's an email from Epstein. You want to just hit the search

and then we'll scroll that one. I saw that, that was the breakfast one. Oh, because they... Because it's not really... Yeah. Shout out to the guys who built this. It's amazing. It's unbelievable what they pulled off, so I'm not complaining. But when roughly, what year was that?

Hold on. It's untrue. Let me find it really fast. It's long after his conviction, obviously. Let's see what we got here. See, there I am. Giving credit to someone. Someone else don't want to give credit to.

Terrible owner. You found it, Thief? Can you just look up 2.4? It's 2014. June 10th, 2014. Okay. There it is. All right.

So this is from your True Hoops substack, which, by the way, we're going to have Henry's blog linked down below. Everyone go join. It's great. You're going to get all this information. And basically...

You're walking around like young Julianne. Yes. Basically, the original 21 chapter report, and that is what it is, is effectively like a 400-page book. It's incredible. That's quite a lot. All right.

So Melanie Spinella, Tuesday, June 10th, 2014. I remember where I was that day. That's crazy. You do? Do you have one of those memories? Yeah. I've asked Rich Jocelyn to follow up with Brad Oaken on Josh Paris payment to you for $2.4 million. Oh, that's bad.

Now, do you think that is it maybe I'm, because I don't know much about what you mentioned, but the BRH thing? was he hired as an advisor for that? Because that's Black, Harris, and Rowan together for their personal fund. So it looks like he definitely had this like involved relationship with Leon Black. And Epstein did. And honestly, to Epstein's credit, like, well, I think that the tax advisor explanation makes no sense at that price. But like I, from the files, I'm also impressed at like Epstein did a lot of tax work for Leon Black like he really did.

And maybe it was worth a lot. doesn't mean that no one else could have done that for a fraction of the price. But then it definitely looks like Epstein tried to get the other two partners in on the similar. He tried to get billionaires to sign over their stuff to him, right? He definitely did that. And to Josh Harris' credit, it looks like Epstein really pushed hard. And Harris, like, I mean, I think rebuffed him mostly. but there's still some emails that are a little,

I mean, they went through a lot of emailing about things that might have been investments. It's hard to tell. So anyway, but I think it's, this, this text is outside of any sense of like the rest of the chain. Right. Like, maybe it's an Epstein move to just have like, like, this is going to sound speculative as hell because it is.

But like, let's say Leon Black needed to pay her $2.4 million. Like, that's a bad bank record to have. You know what I mean? Let's say Leon Black, what? I missed the part of that. But let's say for some reason, Leon Black needed to up his assistant salary significantly. I don't know why. Like, you can't have an Apollo Global check or a Leon.

You know what I mean? Like maybe Epstein is the kind of guy who can facilitate. Like, hey, we just have it coming from Josh, you know. And Harris is a good mark, too, because you've got to. face that could stop a clock. So you can, sorry, he just does. But like, well, one guy told me that like, I don't know, I don't know who to believe on this. But one guy who knows everyone involved was like, the reason that Josh didn't get to lead Apollo is because the clients of Apollo were like, we don't like him. We don't want to hang out with him. He's unpleasant. Mark Rowan's a pleasant guy.

He's very hard. And that's just, he's so distant to. That's why like in Philly, they kind of hated him right away. Like he just, he didn't have any basic understanding of like what it's about. I mean, you've covered the NBA a long time so you know how like Philadelphia fans are. It is like we live for that shit. We live for our teams and everything. And when you're the guy who still lives up in New York, the Ivy League are coming down and running it like a business purely and he would land his helicopter in the middle of like some kid's soccer field to make it to a game and they'd have to like clear the game. It's just like optically not not the best you know but that doesn't surprise me because he's very standoff issues. He's awkward. He's awkward. He's awkward. Have you talked with him?

Not really. I mean I've been to like so I think when he was a new owner he came to the NBA draft lottery and which is like a big swirl of people. It's just off Times Square and we talked briefly. and I know a bunch of people who know him and I don't know I find him to be just all of these people actually just transactional as hell yes and absolutely

that used to seem like it kind of came with Tadroar but now I'm like oh that is that's a problematic personality trait that leads you open to all kinds of corruption yep right like it just does like this is the back to the future version where Biff wins and like it's like all casinos and like people getting tossed out in the street like that's what a transactional culture looks like. So I don't think it's bad to have transactional

people and we all like transactic. I go to the grocery store. I'm transactional, right? But at the same time like when you think that everything that isn't transactional isn't real, you're an asshole, right? That's sociopathy of a kind, right? And so I always got that vibe from him. I just and actually this is going to sound really crazy. But if the point of what you and are talking about, today is you know kind of bad people have too much power in the world one of the things that I think has the biggest impact I learned about from listening to Josh Harris getting interviewed by Steve Forbes I'm I've told this for a few times nobody thinks it's a big deal except for me but to me it was like what the fuck I've always wondered why we don't why the real reason we don't have health care here

right like our health care system is just such a horrible it's just ridiculous setup like even if you're just like competence you wouldn't like it like let alone I'm not going to make my liberal like cry for me speech right now but like it's just a bad yeah system I know at one time like we actually pay as much per user as places that do have nationalized health care but we just pay it through like the ER right like it's like what is what a stupid system why is it like it's hard to see who benefits from this setup but then Steve Forbes had Josh Harris on and he's like on what some show the Steve Forbes hosts or something and and Steve Forbes is like well Joshua oh you know there's many kinds of investments and, you know, investment types.

And why would we need what you do? Like, why wouldn't we just, why couldn't you just go to a bank or go to a Wall Street firm and have them invest your money? And Josh Harris's answer was that the healthcare costs escalate too quickly for, like, the teacher's pension fund to keep up. So, like, they got to insure all the teachers of California for infinity amount of years. And when the costs go up 4% a year, they can invest traditionally. when the cost goes up 11% a year,

like they have to bring their money to Apollo. Numbers, numbers, numbers. And so I'm like, oh my God. And meanwhile, I had noticed, at one point I went through just like public filings of where, like, Leon Black donates. And the answer is every politician, like all of Congress, everyone, right?

And I'm like, this is so much. He's a nice guy. You know? Nice guy. Very generous. I was like, oh, that's, like, they don't, that's their worst nightmare that we would have decent health. healthcare. Yep. Right? It ruins private equity specifically would be ruined by that. Yeah, you're cooking

right now. Now, because it relates to exactly what you're saying with a guy like Josh Harris, I completely agree. He's a transactional individual. And there's something that happens in people who I guess are just motivated by having a bigger number today than they did yesterday and that's all they care about where people, before you even get to some of the fucking horrible crimes that some of these people then end up doing. Assume they don't for a second. I'm saying just people that are purely transactional. They start to view people as not people. And that's another thing. Like Michael Rubin, when he was on the ownership team with the Sixers, he at least was like a public guy and whatever. And there's a lot of people who don't like Michael Rubin because they think he's like kind of weird or whatever.

But like he knew how to talk to the people. And he always had to clean up. He was like the 10% owner of the Sixers. He always had to clean up Josh Harris's messes. Beginning in the pandemic, He was like the first owner to like cut all the staff. Yeah. Of the Sixers. And then Michael Rubin and Joelle Embed came in. And they're like, all right, yeah. We'll let the employees of the fucking company pay the other employees because the owner's not doing it.

It's just it's kind of fucked, man. It's really fucked. It's extraordinary. I mean, like it's a kind of mental disease. Yeah. I don't hate you for having mental disease, but I don't think you should be in charge. Yes. You know, like I don't think politicians should answer to you.

Yeah. Dave Chappelle had a great bit on one of his Saturday Night Live standups like when he was doing the opener. Maybe it was a couple years ago, two, three years ago, something like that. But he was talking about the phenomenon of like why Trump rose up. And I'll get it wrong. He delivered it so perfectly. But he was like, you know, regardless of what you think his actual motivations are, whether he's just completely full of shit or whatever, when he was coming up, he was the billion.

in the suit who was in the room that you're not allowed into with all these people and was the only one to walk out the front door and look you in the eyes and say, yo, I've been in that room the whole time. You're not allowed in, but there's some crazy shit in there, bro. And everyone was like, this motherfucker, at least he's taught. Like, it doesn't seem that. It's kind of true. Right. Yeah. Like, it's not that these people, they just don't under, when they get transactional, they don't understand basic humanity. And if you guys wanted to manipulate people, all you got to do is walk. It's, you're not. out and pretend to care, pretend to talk to them. And these guys don't even do that, you know? Have you heard of this phrase, hubris syndrome? Like the word hubris, like for bride? No. So, um, what's the name? Okay, there's a book called The Hour Between Dog and Wolf.

Oh, actually, this is, you're gonna like this. I know about this book. Okay, so when- The Hour Between Dog and Wolf? Yeah, this is really, yeah, John Coates, that's the guy. Oh. Well, I look, maybe he doesn't want me to say it, But I learned about this from a Sixers front office employee.

But anyway. Scott O'Neill? No. But so this guy. Oh, I know who. I know who. I won't say. Go ahead.

So this guy worked on Wall Street and he, during the dot-com boom. And he noticed that that, like, super smart trader on Monday would make like a bazillion dollars on some trade. And by Friday, the guy's, like, drunk at work. You know, he smells like a prostitute. And he's making stupid trades. And he's like, what? Like, this guy's stop. being smart, right? Like, what happened to him? Just because he made a bunch of money on Monday.

And so he went back to England and he did the, I think he has like a PhD or beyond now. And he started this whole institute studying like this particular syndrome where basically if you're in leadership or in power for 10 years, I'm paraphrasing his work, you should read the real book he wrote on it. Then your mirror neurons stop working. Like you lose empathy. Whoa. And so like, you know, when we all watch a movie and see somebody like cut their hand, your hand hurts a little, right? Like, not at it. if you've been in Trump's position for 10 years, right? You're just like, whatever, man, I told me, I told me, you're going to get hurt, you know?

Like, like, and I feel like I'm seeing that right and left in the NBA, right? And in this Epstein story. Oh, yeah, no, no. That's, wow, that's what he called it, the hour between dog and wolf. That's sick. God, what a title. There's a follow-up book. So this book is the before version, and then you went and did a bunch of research and wrote

another book that I forget the name of. Did his name rhyme with Schminky? I mean, that's a really good guess. And Sam Hinky and I are friends. But in fact, I did not learn about this book from... I want to get Sam Hinky on the podcast. He's a reticent... He's a reticent little guy.

I know he is, but he's a genius. Yeah, he's a genius. Yeah. He's a very smart guy. Okay. The hour between dog and wolf, I'm going to read that. It's a great book. That makes a ton of sense because it's human nature gets used to things no matter

what it is. Negative, supposedly positive and everywhere in between, but like you get used to I've seen it. You know, it's like complacency in a way. It's the same psychology. So it makes sense because you get it far enough removed in your ivory tower or whatever that then everything below you is just grass. And there's a weird, you know, there's something that's going on with these like, you know, I went to a snobby British boarding school for a short amount, a very short, like less than a semester. You said you were born in Britain? Yes, born in England.

Moved here, though, was an infant? And then my parents got divorced, and then my dad became like really excited that we should, that coming to America was a mistake and we should move back. And so we're like, there were kind of like efforts, you know, like, efforts to move back. They didn't really take. But for a while, I was in this Ritzie boarding school. And you just have this feeling of like, oh, like, there's a portion of this hubus, hubris syndrome that's part of like England's rigid class structure, a little bit of let

meat cake kind of thing where it's like, well, we can't fix everything for everybody, right? Yeah, and there's a little bit of like it's ingrained. And like, why would you want that? It's like, well, I think you want that because you, you need everyone to feel okay with the fact that like it's going to suck for a bunch of people. Yes. Right? And but we do have these carriages and we do have these like beautiful, shiny, you know, people on horseback and everything. It's all wonderful. Don't get confused, but like, yeah, Jeffrey Upsons invited to the Buckingham Palace a bunch of times. He was landing on active military bases as well. They're finding that out.

That's not a good time. Like cleared to land on active British military bases. In his private jet? Wow. That's not good. Like, what? You guys. You guys.

Who do you know? We're going to need some better explanations than we've had. far. This is where to me like I just take this it's like okay just take one landing right one landing of a Jeffrey Epstein jet and it's like I think it would be really useful for a journalist to like just go talk to everybody. Yes. Like like just make it make a huge thing out of a small thing but really do the homework. Don't give it away. Go do it. But there's a fucking 10,000 of them. Like I just I'm some journalists there's a there's an airfield in what it's going to be like surrey or something.

Right? Like, just go do it. Just go talk to everybody who was working that day. That probably we're still around. Like, and just figure out what happened. Go to TNAC. Go right here. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. We haven't really had that level yet.

We have that time for those stories to come out. But I think those are like there's there are. We have evidence of, I don't know, a million crimes. Like, just tell me one. Yeah. Get that narrated. None of them are narrated really now other than like the victims. Yes.

Like we're putting them in this weird spot of like, well, I don't know. Right? Like, if it's true, it's like, no, let's figure it out. Let's stitch the whole quilt together. You know, like, like, what happened this day at this place? It's like a, this is like a dystopian. I'll just invent a stupid term right now, like black fairy tale. So like the opposite of a fairy tale where there's this whole Sims world and you could just like put a blindfold on and hold your finger and land right here and open it up. And then be like, all right. So I land. landed on 1997 Surrey Airport, Jeffrey Epstein lands. Let's go there. Yeah. And you can write a book about it. You write a book about the next day.

Absolutely, absolutely. And this guy was operating probably since the late 70s in a way at Bear Stearns at least. Yeah, yeah. Have you heard it all of like there's a, like a DJ guy, like a local radio guy in New Mexico who's been investigating Epstein since like forever? No, let's shout this guy. Yeah. No, I don't know his name, unfortunately. But I don't get it.

New Mexico, like, radio DJ, yeah, yeah, you'll see it. He's given a bunch of interviews and stuff. But he basically just, he has, he's like, he's like, why did you, why were you doing this? And he's like, because I don't have a call screener. Like, yeah, that's the guy. Because I don't have a call screener?

Yeah. So, so people would call his show and they'd be like, yo, some crazy stuff's happening at this ranch. And they, yeah. And imagine being that guy, like you're holding this insane secret and you're like, man, what do I? I'm going to call the radio DJ. That's it. Hey, Steve from Long Island, friend of the show.

Jesus Christ. But he's pretty locked in to like, he would be the perfect person to write one of these books. He looks like he investigates Epstein. Hell yeah. Let's scroll down deep. He got it. But he's got like pretty deep. He basically was like, I know everybody you work there.

at Zorro. Yeah. He's like, I know which ones were allowed in the house, which ones were allowed in the barn. I know, like, what their shifts were.

Like, he knows, like, all the stuff. I'm like, okay, well, this is a good starting point for the narrative, the fun to consume, but like the, the well-told version,

as opposed to just like this litigious kind of like just dropping a bunch of facts and documents, right? Right. People aren't going to get it that way. Zorro's the one I'm starting a deep dive on behind the scenes a little bit. I think,

say, Sergei on Twitter got me into this. He's doing some great work. I hope I'm saying that right. I've been talked with him. He's going to come on the show. Guys doing amazing stuff, but he's digging on a lot of stuff. I think initially when I saw one of his threads, I want to say.

I was like, all right, it's time. But that, do you see who owns that now? It's like some friend of Epstein's right? Donne, well, indirectly. Okay. Don Hafinez or something. Okay. This is New Mexico. He bought it.

By the way, who the fuck wants to buy something like this after it's all exposed? Like, that's just crazy. So it's this, like, very Bible thumping kind of guy, and I say it that way because it's like, why are you buying this? Who's running for maybe Solicitor General or something in Texas right now, backed by Steve Bannon? So to the extent that this is a big thing, right? Like, people keep seem to doing things that don't seem to be in their best interests. So, like, like, Leslie Wexner really wanted us. give power of attorney to somebody over all of his money, right?

I don't think Leon Black wanted to give power of attorney someone over his money, right? Like, um, or all of these properties, I mean, or like two townhouses in Manhattan transact for like $10 each or whatever they did. And like the like, like, like this is somebody telling someone to do something, right? This is not like, why wouldn't you sell their market rates? And one of them standing next to the president. I know. It's just like there's no, like it just doesn't make any sense. Like to me like, like we don't know who the boss is, right? I don't think we know who the boss is or bosses.

Like, that sounded crazy when I said that like that. But to me, I'm like, I don't know, man, Leon Black was, someone told him to give all his money to Jeffrey Epstein. Yeah. Right? Like it feels like that to me. Your early point about the compromise thing being the right of passage makes a lot of sense. Because Wexner, like you see, they've always asked Wexner about if he had a gay relationship

with Jeffrey Epstein, which actually, for all the sick shit, Jeffrey Epstein did. Like, this is the one, like him using compromise of like a gay relationship with another guy is the one I would actually think he didn't do because every piece of evidence we've ever looked at. It was always girls or young women, right? So he had a type and it wasn't guys. What I do wonder, though, is if part of the compramat of Wexner was that he was gay or something and then maybe was also doing some really bad stuff that's beyond like being gay and maybe

abusing boys and stuff like that and maybe that's how they got in because there's a threat I've talked about it a few times before and someone more talented than me and who knows more about this stuff and following the money should really pull on it but what I can't get out of my head is tarapal Mary did a great podcast I'm sorry for people who've heard me say this before but I got to repeat this friend. He did a great podcast, she did a great podcast back in 2020, two of them. One was like the Maxwells and one was Epstein. And with Epstein, she went around with that one, she went around with Virginia Robert Schuphrey. And it's like a documentary. She did eight episodes where she's recording like an edited documentary. And what they would do is they would go to the

usually gated communities of people connected to Epstein who Virginia had known from her time around him and try to talk to them. So they went to Adam Perry Lang, the famous. his chef who knew Virginia and he was like, oh, I remember you and said, you can't come meet with me. But when they went to Wanalessi's mansion, I guess, and his community, he let them in. Juan Alessi was the house manager for Epstein, immigrant, had to sign a crazy NDA, all this stuff. And to his credit, he allowed Tara to put the recorder out and record all of them talking. And he said a lot of interesting things in there. But among them was he talked about how in 1992,

he's like Epstein had money in the 80s and I worked with him and he lived on the Upper East Side and everything. But 1992 shit went crazy. Right. He started flying in private jets everywhere. I think he started looking at buying his own jet at the time. He wasn't, I'd said this earlier, but he wasn't in the mansion yet. I know that now. But I have to run back to that podcast and see exactly what one unless he said. But basically he said he went from whoa to whoa like out of nowhere. And it's very fascinating to me because he's very fascinating to me because he's the exact one of Lassie said. But basically he said he went from whoa to whoa, like out of nowhere. And it's very fascinating to me because. He's very fascinating to me. because Robert Maxwell was pushed off that boat in November 1991. His body was immediately taken to Israel to the Mount of Olives, the most sacred place you could be buried, funeral attended by heads of state. We can all do the math there. And buried with honors, but leaves behind a $400 million-plus pension scam at his company and was supposedly worth nothing.

Robert Maxwell is a very bad guy. Never made sense to me that he was worth nothing, especially when his sons were then put on trial for that and found not guilty. When are Sions ever found not guilty when they built the fucking public or a bunch of regular Joe's from what they did? And so Epstein getting all that money at the same time and also cozing up to Wexner at the same time, who is a money bag man when you look at a lot of the evidence surrounding like the case,

very, that's a, that has never squared up to me. And but I can't speculative. But it's interesting because, like you said, for him to be granting all that power, including power of attorney, giving him that place for $10. Yeah. Something. Yeah. Something made right. And I think of I'm right that before that, Epstein, before he lived in that townhouse, Epstein lived in a building owned by Iran.

I'm pretty sure. Check me out on this. Either he had an office or he lived in a place. Epstein. All right. Let's look this up. He stepped out for a second. Epstein building owned by Iran.

And that would have been post-revolution Iran? Yeah, I think. Yeah. I think, do you see that? Do they think I'm up? All right, let's see. The State Department once rented a townhouse seized from Iran. So they seized it from Iran to Jeffrey Epstein, then sued him for subletting it.

Classic. He makes a profit on it. That's classic. A weird and forgotten case from the 90s. shows how connected Epstein was to power. So his Upper East Side Mansion has become, this is from BuzzFeed News, has become notorious for its reportedly macabre,

interior decor immense size and monetary value and as the site of some of his lurid alleged crimes. But Epstein, the financier who has been charged with sex trafficking and accused of sexually abusing young girls, used to live in a different Upper East Side mansion only a few blocks away. It's a mansion that's embroiled him in a dispute involving a lawyer for French.

connection heroin ring suspects, the State Department, and transitively the government of Iran. The now-forgotten case laid out in newspaper clips from the time and extensive court documents offers a glimpse into a strange facet of Epstein's life at the time. Beginning in February 1992, Epstein rented a former Iranian government building that had been taken over by the State Department during the Iranian Revolution at 34 E-69 Street. So that's literally like two blocks away in one of Manhattan's most expensive neighborhoods at a rate of $15,000 a month. But things went sour when, by the way, $15,000 a month in February 1999. It's a lot of money. It's clocking. And he got it in February 92, what I just said with Juan Alessie. It's clocking.

So, but things went sour when the government sued Epstein in the Southern District of New York, alleging that he had at one point failed to pay the rent on time and it violated the lease by moving out in early 1996 and subletting the place the place without the state department's submission. His subtenant was Ivan Fisher, a New York City criminal defense lawyer who had famously defended members of the French connection and the pizza connection Italian Sicilian mob drug rings. The government also sued Fisher. Jesus Christ, man. And then I mentioned Ivan Boski earlier, but I'm a key, we should look this up. But I'm pretty sure. I'm right in saying that after...

So he, there's a thing called, so the CIA installed the Chauvaron. Yes. Not even controversial, right? Not even controversial, right? That was Kermit Roosevelt's nephew or something. Yeah, something like that. And with MI6, because most of the deck had been elected and was going to nationalize the oil. Yep, can't have that.

Yeah. And so now it's like, I think of BP mostly, whatever after that. When WestJet first took flight in 1996, the vibes were a bit different. People thought denim on denim was peak fashion, inline skates were everywhere, and two out of three women rocked, the Rachel. While those things stayed in the 90s, one thing that hasn't is that fuzzy feeling you get when WestJet welcomes you on board. Here's to WestJetting since 96.

Travel back in time with us and actually travel with us at westjet.com slash 30 years. So the Shah was like not a good ruler, right? It was from the Pahlavi family. Then there's the Pahlavi Foundation owned a skyscraper in Manhattan, which I think later was seized and distributed to victims of terrorism.

But I'm pretty sure that in between Ivan Bowsky had an office in there. Which is like, what the fuck? So, look, I don't... It would make sense. When you told me that... What you just read out loud, that kind of stuff makes me think like, well, the unseen part almost has to be intelligence.

Do you know what I mean? Like, who else could pull this kind of thing off? Or like, you're kind of keeping this guy in these houses. And they're, you know, he definitely got a sweetheart deal on the next townhouse up. But like, you know. Got a sweetheart deal on this one too. And the guy, you know, and you know when he was at Bear Stearns, Bill Casey was there. I forgot about that.

Tell people who Bill Casey was. So Bill Casey ended up running the CIA, but he... Another one who could stop a clock. Oof. Yeah. But he, Bill Casey, I'll just tell you that if you read all the books I've read and all the freaking research, like his name just comes up 10 million times associated with like some of the shadiest stuff you ever heard of the CIA being accused of.

a lot of Noriega meetings, you know, this kind of stuff. So, and, you know, and Iran Contra. So, yeah. He was like the architect of that, if I remember correctly. Yeah. And then while Epstein, somewhere in these years, Epstein has an office maybe in that building that he shares with Stanley Pottinger. Who was he again?

Stanley Pottinger was like a, a major figure in Iran-Contra, who later became like a popular novelist, and I think his son is in the Trump administration right now. But Stanley Pottinger, many people will believe, was, like, working on behalf of the CIA in Iran-Contra. It feels like all you got to do is be connected to Jeffrey Epstein, and you get a job in the government. Every government, Democratic and Republican. It's just... Leon Blackson has a job.

And that's what I'm saying. Yeah. So, you know, just on the surface, sons are, you're not guilty of what your father did. I love Woody Harrison. He's a great actor. You know what I mean? Like his dad was a serial killer. That said.

That was a crazy podcast. Yeah. I forget what was it called? The, the, was that another serial one? I don't think so. I think it was an independent one. But anyway. Not story.

But, you know, that said, when you're running a White House, especially, there's no place where optics matter more. Yeah. and to hire this fucking guy, his son, into the White House, after all this shit was out, what are you doing? What are you doing? I've always felt like Trump was kind of like an errand boy for bigger forces, you know? And to me, it's like, well, they just told him to do it. You know, that's why they told him to do it.

Yeah, you know what? There's something that really sticks out with me when he did that podcast with Joe Rogan shortly before the election. one of the things Joe asked them about was all the turnover of people from his first administration. And I forget, I'm going to paraphrase, people can go check it out and see what he said. But in a very un-Trump-like way, he actually admitted, you know, maybe Joe asked him like some mistakes. Maybe that was how he asked, are there some mistakes from your first administration that you wouldn't want to do again? and Trump was like he said some of the people I hired

and some of the people I brought around and he brought up John Bolton he's like that guy never saw someone he didn't want to bomb you know look at us now right and he actually got John Bolton arguing against the Iran war that's how I asked backwards we are but like there's something to it that maybe those people are people

it's what you're saying they were like placed around him and he just agreed to it and now maybe he's doing it again despite the fact that he seemed to have at least some self-awareness. He was doing that last time. But it is, I agree, Henry, it's hard for me to not see that same pattern because it's like, how many of these guys are you going to put around you that it just is easy for us on a fucking podcast to pull up and be like, well, look who he's connected to. There's no way it's the best and brightest.

You know what I mean? These are not the people who, I mean, just look at Christine No and whatever. Like, she's just, oh, moron. Like, she's just terrible. Moron. But unthreatening, right? Like, she's not going to, like, no one's going to say, we should. should make her president to replace him. You know what I mean? Like it's safe for him.

He's sludge you won't 25th me. Yeah. No chance. No chance. Oh my God. That's good. Jesus Christ. Real quick, Henry, can I just run to the bathroom? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's always a good idea. We'll be right back. All right. So we actually just while we were taking a bathroom break, there's something a little fresh off the press. I just sent it to you, D. if we got it. So you're going to like this. Can you go back? No, that's actually good. Sorry, Defe.

So New Jared Kushner and family and Epstein were close according to the latest Epstein files. Who's this from, Deef at Merlin? This is from? Just X out for a second. Oh, sorry. So I can give the Twitter account. Merlin's capital. Merlin capital.

Okay, so there's an email August 24th, 2017 to Monday. Michael Wolf, the author, where Wolf says, great, I'm in D.C. on Wednesday with Kushner. How about Thursday? And after Jeffrey Epstein said he was in, Wednesday to Friday, and then go to the next one, Dief. April 9th, 2015, to subject, Josh Kushner, redacted, writes to Jeffrey Epstein, were you the one that introduced him and Stephen? His girlfriend, Carly Klaus, just did a coding thing for girls. to do something similar at the bank. So this is someone at a bank. That's interesting. We can reach out officially, but always nicer to have a personal touch when possible. I wonder if this is Jess Staley,

who wrote this. I'm totally speculating. But, and then go to the next one right here. There you go. Mother load. Friday, May 17th, 2019 from Chris Deloreo to redacted subject Apollo slash Epstein slash Kushner connection. Okay. Have you, this Chris guy, Chris Deloreo, Are you familiar with his name? No. So in the Epstein files, if you search the stuff that I search, Chris DeLoreo is a disgruntled, he's like an engineer who got ripped off with some startup or something. And since then he's been emailing the SEC, like, like he has these, just see that big blacked out wall at the bottom of that email?

That's because he's writing to like the entire SEC, like one by one. And he's just like, basically like is sketching out massive. money laundering, fraud of all kinds, and he's narrating it. Like, he's one of these people who'm like, I don't know if he knows what he's talking about or not. I have no reason to believe he doesn't. But like, you know, it's just, if you read these Chris Lurio emails, they're all just like 10,000 crimes are alleged.

It's like, I've probably, I don't know. Like, sure. We have to do a little homework. But he's an angry, plugged in guy. And he's all tuned into the idea that like all these people are money laundering and committing various kinds of crimes. man, because he's had so much power in both administrations. It's not like he's pulling the strings and stuff. There's some people who want to believe that he's not, but he's had significant

power to negotiate deals, especially in the Middle East. And it's like, you hear him talk, he's not a dummy. I'll give him that. Like he's clearly a smart guy, but came into a lot of money and as a real estate guy hasn't been the most successful dude ever. I mean, they had the famous building, what was it, 6, 6, 6, 6 in Manhattan or something? something like that can we look that up thief they bought for some outrageous sum and it was worth half that like a year later is that is that right yeah six six six fifth avenue interesting number on that one uh but now six six zero fifth avenue it's purchased in 2007 for a record one point eight billion often troubled real estate dealings before a 2018 bailout it was the most

expensive building purchase in new york city history at the time of its acquisition by Krishna companies. It's just weird. Like, why, like, you're trying to negotiate no war with Iran allegedly, and you're sending Steve Woodcoff and Jared Kushner. Yeah. Like New York City real estate guys. Yeah. No, it's, when we were talking about transactions and deal guys, right? Like, to me, the whole Trump administration are deal guys. Yeah. Right. Which means, like, the opposite of a deal to me is a relationship, like a real honest, like, you know, like a marriage or a, you know, whatever. So, like, we think of the government as like, oh, well, these are our representatives, like, for America.

And they're thinking about America's interests. And it's like, I've seen no evidence of a single scrap of that anywhere in any of the Trump administration. It's like, no, these are deal guys. Yeah. And there's a story, um, really amazing book by Connie Rook called Predators Ball, which is like the story of Milken and Drexel. It's like, it's great.

Predator, you're bringing some great books up. you got to read that book. Connie Brooke is like a legend. She's a New Yorker writer. She's a legend. She knows so much. She was in the room for a lot. Like it's incredible work.

But one of the themes of that book is that Michael Milken had his brother work with him. And his brother kept another set of books, which wasn't, it wasn't like fake Drexel books. It was Milken books, right? It was like, at the time that they're investing on behalf of Drexel, they're also investing on behalf of Milken. Right. And so his brother's books were very threatening and felt off to like the other Drexel employees. Because they're like, well, what are you guys doing?

Like, I know what we're doing, but what are you doing? And this was the like, and I feel like that's a hallmark. The second set of books to me is a hallmark of, you know, it's never good. And that's where, you know, like Josh Kushner is mentioned there. So like he's the one is married to Carly Claus and part owner of the Memphis Grizzlies. Is he really? I didn't know that. And so it seems to me like family is particularly good to have this like second accounting, right?

But basically, you know, Jared Kushner in the first administration, there was a New York Times article, was flying to like meet with all these people on behalf of Trump in like the Middle East. Yep. But Josh Kushner went around the same time and did deals. I was like, well, that's the second set of books happening there, right? It's like, like Jared wants Saudi Arabia to do X, Y, and Z. on behalf of the taxpayers of America. And then Josh is like, eh, it wouldn't hurt if you invested in this thing, that thing, right?

And so Josh has been frequently successful in raising money. And so I, you know, the fact that, like to me, a deal person would be, God love them, you know, people got to buy things, but like the last person you would send to go and represent you and me in Tehran or whatever, right? Like, of course not.

They're going to do deals because that's what deal people do. Yes. It's like the scorpion and the frog or whatever, right? Like they're going to, the beneficiary of the deal is going to be this guy, right? It's like, well, we need someone who's trying to benefit hundreds of millions of Americans, right? And it's like, we don't have that. I think what you're pointing out on a bigger scale is something that I just think is the way it is now.

And that is in most cases, every accusation is a projection. You know, when you look at these two parties, the Democrats and Republicans, they each have their different weak points of like things that they do. or things that it's like objectively like what the fuck was that but the style with which they do it the swampy kind of style is the same yeah and that's what's really like removing the politics and everything from it that's what's been really disappointing about trump particularly in a second term it's like this is the outsider this is the guy is supposed to come in and drain some stuff and i'm seeing the same shit that plague the Biden administration happening in some different vortex with Trump. And I think the way you're characterizing it of like it's just make a deal. And there's some of that stuff that, of course,

that occurred in the first administration as well, as you're pointing out, like, you know, more for me, but not for thee. That's just, that's the way this class of people thinks. And what's even scarier, Henry, is that one of the things that's becoming clear from these emails that I think I've cited it a million times now. I'm going to keep citing. it, but I think Tucker Carlson put it perfectly. He's like there's this supra government kind of thing. He's like, there's your elected leaders, some of your leaders of industry and the people that you think have power, but there's actually two classes above them. The top class is the people who really run the world. The class in between there is really rich fixer people who work for those people and tell the people that you think run the world what the fuck to do.

And Jeffrey Epstein's in that middle class. You can make it like the Rothschilds in the top class or whatever. But when you see people running around the world and making deals behind the politics, you got to think they're from those top. two classes right there. Yeah. And I think I you know I think that's right but I also think don't give it too much credit. Like to the extent that I've had any exposure like they're they're not super wizards. They're not super villains. They're not movie that like they're douchebags. Like they're getting away with it because they're appointed and chosen representatives like because we fall for it. So that's why I think like what you're doing is kind of this is the front line of this battle for

for America or whatever right here right now because. Yeah, it's you guys. It's fucking go. Because to me, like the question is like when whoever takes the microphone to explain like, well, we looked into it and it turns out like Steve Wickcoff's in the clear. Like do you buy it? Is the question, right? Like for most of history, like this Cabal's brand of BS has worked because you have like, you know,

a white guy who went to a good college and wears a red tie and a blue suit and speaks in a certain tone and has certain bar certifications, whatever. And that person says, like, well, it all, which it all checks out. And then enough Americans are like, well, they thought they looked into it, right? But now it's like, you know, the head of BCCI flew on Jimmy Carter's plane. No, no, sorry, Jimmy Carter flew on his plane all over. And I'm like, fuck. Not okay. And I don't want Jimmy Carter. I mean, I don't, I don't want anyone to tell me that it was all in the clear. It's like, no, I want, you know, evidence, or I don't believe anybody, right? And who was banking with BCCI at that time? And what were they doing? Can you explain the whole BCCI thing?

Let's let's do it. I've been holding it off all right. Let's go. Well, so BCCI was, there was a guy named Abedi, A-B-E-D-I, I'm not sure I'm saying it, right? Who was, I think, kind of a genius who figured out that basically there wasn't an Arab bank, but there were all these like Arab governments that might invest with an Arab bank. And so they went around to all of these governments that, hey, you should, you can bank with the Jews if you want, but like, why wouldn't you bank with us? And so they had a really great time just raising money across Africa and the Middle East. At the same time, though.

Pakistani, Abedi, he's from Pakistan. Yeah. And it depends who you believe on this exact point, but it kind of looks like this guy, I bet he went to the royal family of Abu Dhabi, which was before there was such a country as the United Arab Emirates. They were the ununited Arab Emirates, right? And Abu Dhabi was one of them. And this Al-Nihan family ran Abu Dhabi.

And he was like, you know, like, if you guys got together, you could be kind of a moving force in the banking world because they had oil, right? But instead of being all like, you know, these, how many of there are seven emirates, I think? And being all warlike with each other, just get together and you can be kind of a big force. So it looks like BCCI formed the UAE. And then, but meanwhile, we learn later, BCCI has like squads of people that murder. They have, there's like all the opium is grown in Afghanistan and then it's exported into the tribal areas of Pakistan. And then it was processed in all these different processing facilities that had a bunch of deep CIA ties.

And then they make a bunch of money, but you can't get your money out of Pakistan well. and like BCCI was like, we got you. A lot of the biggest ship, there was like a huge shipping company was like BCI's biggest client, like just shipping stuff all over the world. And so it became this kind of catch-all of, it's definitely a bank. It was maybe also just like a hub of transnational crime,

certainly involving drug money. And then the CIA bank there. Because the story was because they needed ways to like, you know, move money quietly offshore. Yes. They do need that. Okay, get this, though. There's so many parts that are bad shit crazy.

But one part of it is, so then they hired secretly. They hired one of the most reputable lawyers in D.C. I think his name. I don't want to guess it his name, but it's easily findable or publish it. And he kind of ran interference because they were banned from the U.S. banking system, but they wanted to buy U.S. banks to get their assets from this dirty network. Why were they banned? Great question.

I don't know. They banking regulars in the U.S. were like, we're not dealing this BCCI thing for some reason. And they were controversial. They were only cover of Time magazine.

It was like, the world's dirtiest bank and stuff, you know. It wasn't like a total secret. And maybe financing terrorism, I think terrorism money came through BCCI. We don't like that. Yeah.

So, but this guy, like basically made it so they sneakily bought the bank of Georgia and I think another bank in the U.S. Using shell companies. Yeah,

using shell companies with like this, you know, highly regarded American lawyer as like installing the figurehead run. Okay, so all this is happening. Okay. Here's what gets really crazy. As this is happening in Beverly Hills, the high-ranking employees of Drexel call Michael

Milken Shep. That's his nickname. Shep. Shep. Shep. S-H-E-P, which is short for Shepard, which is the villain that. the arch global villain who leads a team of murderers in this novel called The Mattery Circle. And like, it's a Luddlum thriller about like, you know, this global cabal that uses young women as sexual playthings to entrap people and then like controls the world by taking over boards and murdering people who don't go along, right?

So you're not beating the allegations right now. So they call them Shep. And then in that book, they're like, like, there's, you know, there's still a spies and running around and. good guys and bad guys. But in that book, and the sexual slaves and all this stuff, but in that book, they're like, well, how do you move the money? It's like, oh, like through a bank, through an Arab bank, they have their headquarters in Atlanta, which is actually where at that time, when this book came out, nobody knew that BCCI, the Arab Bank secretly controlled this bank in Atlanta. When I read that Atlanta line, I was like,

what the fuck? Yeah. And then there's definitely BCCI had significant overlap with Drugs of Burden Lambert. Like their money. intermingled in a bunch of ways. They got in some trouble for it, but I think we probably only saw a tiny percentage of it. I want to get to that quick question, though. You mentioned they were involved in laundering, basically taking the money and possibly partnering with CIA to do it that was coming through the illegal heroin train in Afghanistan. Yes.

You know John Kirooku tried to blow the whistle on that. Oh. Yes. That would have been very helpful if you had. Yeah. And then they arrested him right after on a case they had closed. He was working for John Kerry. who he said is like the worst guy ever.

Yeah. And he was the investigator for the Senate Foreign Intelligence Committee. Yeah. And he went to Afghanistan. And he's like, what the fuck? Yeah. We're supplying 93% of the world's heroin.

And they're like, yeah, don't look at that. Yeah. And then he got to charge. And then, you know, at the one of those committees, it might have been the church committee, like they were basically like Southern Air Transport. Like, you know, what's this? And they basically, you know, it's in the meeting,

like CIA, planes, cocaine. into the U.S. And they were like, well, would you do? They asked some CIA guy like, you know, like, would you do it again? And he's like, well, like, you know, not this way or whatever. Like, what do you mean? Like, well, we would definitely just be like way more covert. We covered up better.

They literally moved that company to Leslie Wexner's local airport in New Albany. And there's recently reporting that. Well, that's fucking obvious. Yeah. Like they're trying to cover it up more and they move it to his airport. I mean, no one knew West's name then, right? It was just like, no, we're just using these planes that, you know, to transport the limited apparel. That's what they said.

And they did, even after that, there's a report they did find cocaine on those planes. But yeah, I'm not a mobster. I don't know a lot about the mob, but I'm thinking if you, so it's no argument the CIA has been in the drug trade. Yeah. Big time. Remember the headline? The CIA investigated itself with regard to the drug trade and found no. No wrongdoing.

Perfect. Good job, guys. So, but do you know how unusual it is to like, A, B, in the drug trade at a high level, which is basically just an infinite supply of money, right? And then just quietly get out of it. Yeah. That doesn't make, nobody does that.

No way. But they're basically zero percent chance of getting caught because they are the CIA. Anyway, this is like a dumb thing for me to talk about. No, it's not. Because unfortunately, it underscores the overall point. here. These different agencies around the world, including our own here right at home, are willing to get involved with the dirtiest businesses. Not willing. They voluntarily and excitedly get involved

with the dirtiest businesses to mankind if they view it as something that can help their needs. I mentioned it earlier, but just for context for you, one of the guys I had sitting in your seat is a former knock from CIA who the only reason he's not still operating. is because a foreign intelligence service got a leak in CIA and then leaked five names on the dark web. That's not nice. And he was, yeah, so he had to be pulled from the field and everything. But he eventually ended up in the cartels

as one of their chief money launders around the world. That was his cover. And part of what he did, and he told the story sitting in that chair, was he worked a guy who was a top 10 guy to top 10 bank at a bar, developed a relationship with him and eventually got him to launder money for the cartel And the idea is you use a dark criminal underworld organization like that, which has inevitable connections to slide in as a spy, not to stop them, but to work with them so that you get access

to their connections and get intelligence from that that you deem as a better tradeoff for the bad things that they do. And for me, I'm like, okay, so poisoning our streets and killing people every day with fentanyl being complete savages and killing people because you disagree. in a fucking card game or whatever it might be dropping heads up the other stuff is worth it for that it just doesn't from as a normal human being it doesn't clock for me and you know like cocaine used to be imported into the u.s by like a kilo at a time on flights right very shoe yeah and then over the 80s the CIA got involved and it became like you know boatloads plane loads you know

and not just a guy with a carry-on suitcase, right? And family court, like the number of instances of families getting blown apart and going to court to like went up sixfold, I think I might say, over the 80s, while the total value of all of the money in Wall Street doubled. So like, to me, like our financial services industry is like, I'm not saying that doubling was all cocaine money.

Right. I see what you're saying. It's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot. And so to me, like, if, you know, I, I had lunch with a friend. He's a great guy who knows a lot about investing or whatever. And I was like, what's the bank that is good at like not taking drug money? And he couldn't even like, I couldn't even like process the question.

He's like, well, you know, you can get a lot of trouble if like, you know, like, know your customer rules. I'm like, no, but like assuming they're reasonably good at like moving at one or two steps before it would come to you. And now it's just an investment from like a family trust. Right. like our South Dakota, whatever. Like and he's like, oh, that's totally allowed.

I'm like, work with me on this. Like, like, is there a bank that's like savvy? And he was basically like, look, the only filter is like what will actually, what will you, the lawyers actually get you in trouble for? Yeah. Right? And like, that's not a filter at all. Spot on.

Yeah. Exactly what it's like. It's exactly. That's why it's so hard. I mean, I fucking hated working at a bank because there were rules, dumb rules on everything. Yeah. good rules like that.

But like, that's all it was. It was never, you can't do this because it's wrong. Yeah. It was you can't do this because our legal team says you can't. So if you could find a way to circumvent that that the legal team was like, well, that checks out for me. They wouldn't care what it was. There's a forest trees problem there.

Exactly. Yeah. And so John Coriaco has been to Afghanistan and seen large-scale drug trade. That's 93%, you said. So, okay, so that's what we could do the math on the profits of that. Like, where's that money? So people at the CIA who don't You know who

John Caracca was like they hit it from him Right so there's like a small cabal With the CIA That has a governmentalist Yeah And they have all this money They gotta put it somewhere They have to put it somewhere they trust it

Right like is that what we're looking at With this Epstein scandal Right? Like is that the money Like is this CIA drug money that we're talking about? I don't know But some of it has to be It's got to be somewhere. Some of it has to be.

I feel like he's almost above that, though. I feel like that's like, oh, let fucking, you know, Apollo take care of that or something because he was a fixer who served a lot of places. And it's very clear he served. When you look at the evidence, he served Mossad dominantly. That was the place he was most loyal to and obviously crazy relationship with the Hoobarak and many other people. But he worked with CIA. And there's the evidence shows.

it goes back to like a RAN contra. And I feel like, I feel like where you're on to something is that he would be a guy who would know where all that money was going. Well, they're going to want to keep it in the Compromat network. Yeah. Right?

Like you can't, somebody whose money it really is, and that person's name won't be on an account. Right. So the person whose name is on the account has to be on video. Yep. If my theory is correct here, right? So to me,

that's where it's seen super useful, right? So I don't know. Like, we seen emailing a million bankers. Yeah. Right? Like he can direct money around all kinds of places, right? I have a feeling that, well, it would be very weird for the CIA not to use him for that.

You know what I mean? Yeah. If they know this guy and he's good at that. Deal with the devil. Yeah. Yeah, I was asking Andy Boostamante, who is definitely still in CIA, but your resident kind of on-camera CIA guy about this. Very handy. have. Yeah. And he was like, what, how do he put it in a really good way? He's like, the two most,

the, how did he say it? He said the first most shocking day at CIA is the day you figure out who really runs the world when they tell you that. That's handy to know. And the second most shocking day is, is learning how you operate within that system because you ain't going to change it. Yeah. He says it better than that. But. But it's a cynical way of putting it. I don't suppose he told you who runs the world. Well, I'll give him this because it's kind of strange to see him changing a little bit with this story coming out now.

I was like, huh. But he's always been the guy who, and this is, you know, he's got people online that really enjoy him and then people who fucking hate him. And the people who hate him, it's because, well, number one, they think he still works for CIA. and I would agree with them. But number two, he's never seen a conspiracy that he couldn't poo-poo and like Occam's razor it away.

And it's like, all right, Andy, come on. Some of them are you doing PR for here. But he, when I talked, I was talking with him about that a couple weekends ago, and the context of the conversation was like the Rockefellers. Yeah. And I was like, interesting. He would have never, ever, like, kind of commented on that kind of thing a year ago. but he is now.

So maybe it's like, well, they know. We're giving up the game. I don't know. I don't know, but I found that very fascinating for sure. It takes out on a lot of levels. Yeah. Now, your investigation, this is what really got me, like, when I was first going through it, is how far back you ended up jumping.

Because, again, you're looking at this at the time, like 2019, 2020 NBA. And then you're writing chapters on like, so the Treaty of Versailles, like, how did you, Was that just strictly going down the dullest rabbit hole? I'm trying to remember how that happened. I think so. There was a Sears Roebuck founders, like the Rosen. Anyway, there's a, yeah, I was trying to look at the earliest days of the CIA. And like the OSS is kind of unavoidable in the story because, you know, Donald Barr hired Jeffrey Epstein.

He was in the OSS and like, what were they doing? And then it turns out like the OSS is crazy. Yeah. What makes it so crazy to you? Well, I think the first leader of it was this guy, like, I think his name was Wild Bill. Wild Bill Donovan, right? And he spent the war in London having, like, orgies and stuff. Like, I mean, look it up.

I don't take my word for it. But, and then, you know, then the Bank of International Settlement, right? This is some crazy stuff. So basically, the Dulles brothers are the Sullivan, Kromwell attorneys who work for the richest Americans of all time, including, I think I mind saying the Rockefellers, but check me on that. So what are they really doing? I don't know, but they get themselves into the negotiations for the Treaty of Versailles, so we're like figuring out how much Germany has to pay France, basically, for doing a bad job in World War I.

Right? And then, you know, and then these, the Germany's like, Hitler's top banker has all these meetings with American executives about like the importance of having multinational corporations. I don't even really understand this. And this is the early late 20s or yeah, this is all actually that starts in like like 1905 and stuff. They're like and so and you know that time Germany has the world's leading dye companies like like to dye clothes. And somehow in cahoots with their American meetings they commit them to become basically pharma companies and they're multinational farmer companies and they're the farmer companies. And they're the farmer companies. We have.

today. Like, these are those same companies, but then they make the gas that kills the Jews and the Kets.

Yeah. But they're multinational, which means that, that the whole time Hitler's doing this, like they can just shuffle money around and it's not,

Nazi money anymore, right? They can have like, like, you know, this is where Swiss banking was invented, right?

Really? All right. Can you explain this a little more? Yeah. So, Swiss banking wasn't really a thing. But it just, IG Farben is the big company that made Zyclon B.

And it's one of the biggest drug companies at the time. And I think that I've published on this. We should go and look at the original story. But like, I think I'm saying that this guy schlocked was like Hitler's lead banker. And you can see a meeting with all these American banking executives. Basically, they figured out a way to make IG Farben have headquarters in multiple. countries so that when they make a lot of money from German taxpayers purchasing Zyclon B, they can then report it as income in Switzerland and put it in a bank. And these banks

have special rules where no one can tell whose money that is. Right. And then at the same time, the U.S. becomes like a key force managing the Bank of International Settlement, settlement, headquartered in Switzerland overseen by a Dulles brother. And like, and basically their Hitler there's bank they'll literally like we'll take your like you have crates and crates of gold teeth pride from the mouths of people in concentration camps like you know deposit here also where was alan dullus during the whole war burn switzerland yeah so that's what he was doing there so he was there he was america's liaison to the bank of national settlement there's a great book about the i think it's called devil's chessboard uh is that the one you're thinking of no because there's a lot

Devil's Test Board is like almost when I first read it I was like this is almost too much. Yeah, I'm gonna look really fast. Defe, it was chapters 13 and 14 of Henry's full, yeah, there it is. There you go. Hitler's American business friends. Yeah, there you go. Is that 13, Defe? And so they were offering American corporations monopolies, right?

So they're like, they're like, Hitler's going to conquer all of Europe. And then Texaco can be the unique supplier. of petroleum to all of Europe. Uh, where are my gloves? Come on, heat. Any day now? Winter is hard, but your groceries don't have to be. This winter, stay warm.

Tap the banner to order your groceries online at voila.ca. Enjoy in-store prices without leaving your home. You'll find the same regular prices online as in store. Many promotions are available both in store and online, though some may vary. And they're talking with the people who essentially would become the founders of the OSS in doing this. Yeah. So the founders of the OSS are like, you know, well, it seemed to be on the wrong side of this. Yeah.

Yeah. So that's why I got Treaty of Versailles. The Treaty of Versailles, too, is one of the most ignored parts of history to me because they rigged the game to create a vacuum in Germany. Yeah. It's like it's on, it's not like they knew at the time who Adolf Hitler was in 1919 because he hadn't made a name yet. But they created an opening throughout the 20s in Germany by fucking Germany into the fucking fifth century that there was going to be the opportunity for some sort of extreme voice to rise.

Right. And create some sort of revolutionary power. Yeah. And the Sullivan Cromwell guys are the dudes who, basically told Woodson or Woodrow Wilson what to do. Yeah. That's nuts. It's pretty sadistic.

It's very sadistic. Yeah. But that's the thing. Like you're talking about who they were, who their clients were and who they were allied with. We're talking about the masters of the universe, the Rockefellers and stuff like that. So it makes you think, you know, are the Dulles brothers that same class, that fixer class? Yeah. As like Epstein.

Yeah. So in the devil's chess board, like they, you know, basically like, you know, basically like, JFK is like, I'm kicking you guys out and then he just got shot. Yeah, no, the fuck you're not. Yeah. Imagine like getting kicked out by the president and then you still run the world's most powerful intelligence agency from your Georgetown apartment because you can. Yeah.

And LBJ is like, all right, I'll keep you. You can come back now. In fact, you can sit on that commission. What do you guys need exactly? Yeah, you can investigate yourself and find nothing. So you end up at that. And then you were also the one who wrote about how I cite this a bunch on the podcast, about how when things started turning and America was becoming enemies with Hitler, like the government,

these guys were like, come on, really? And then eventually Pearl Harbor happened, Germany, declare's war. And they're like, all right, we'll go to war with the Nazis. Well, this is inconvenient. Call them up like, sorry, Adolf. Listen, it's nothing personal. But like they didn't even, they were like not even. for stopping him there

just like this would have been good for us. Oh, we were on, I feel like, you know, in like the financial class in New York was like on rails. It's just like, yeah, we're doing a Hitler deal, right? Like, we're in on this. Like, this is a win. They've been investing for years, you know?

Texaco was shipping, like, the gas in Hitler's tanks was Texaco gas. And they evaded blockades from the British government to, like, deliver it. Because they wanted the monopoly in Europe. So they would come and, they had meetings like at the Plaza Hotel. I forget the name of the guy,

who was like Hitler's representative in New York, but they just like had meetings with these business leaders. They're like, here's what we're gonna do for you. Here's what we're gonna do for you. Can we find that from chapter 13, Dave? Because it's called Nazis. That was the best chapter title. Nazis at the Waldorf Astoria.

Or Waldorf Astoria. What was the name of the guy? Yeah, if you keep going to... Yeah, let's try that. Plaza, you think. Yeah, let's try that. Plaza. Hotel? The Waldorf Astoria Hotel. Yeah, keep going down.

That's where Leon Black's dad, Eli, convinced shareholders to approve the takeover of one of the most intelligence-connected firms of all time, United Fruit. You know what you didn't mention here? It's also where Lucky Luciano had a residence. I didn't know that. Yeah.

It's where Golan Maxwell has been photographed, grinning in formal wear. And it's where David Stern hosted the first NBA draft lottery ever. David Stern made an appearance in the files. No, it's not him. It's not him. Yeah, it's a different guy with the same name.

I know I sound like I'm like Andrews Tamante here. But like, but yeah, it's literally, there's a guy who's like an assistant to some of the royal. He's an American banker, I think, who like worked for Sarah Ferguson. Oh, that's, yeah. Sorry, David. Rest and peace of the commissioner. He caught a drive by for a while there. Yeah.

All right. And then after celebrating Hitler, do, do, do. Is it Westrick? Yeah, I think that's right. But after the war, Westrick himself told the story of visiting the U.S. at the behest of Hitler's foreign minister and meeting industrialists like Henry Ford. Yeah. Wow.

And I think there's a picture there of, let's see, 1929, J.P. Morgan executives traveled to Paris to meet with the president of the German Reichs Bank. I don't know I say it. Helmar shocked to negotiate an economic plan to stabilize Germany's economy after World War I. So that guy shocked then became Hitler's like chief banker. And so he's like meeting in a photo here with J.P. Morgan. With J.P. Morgan. Yeah. These are like the big wigs of J.P. Morgan meeting with Hitler's chief banker.

Oh, with the company. I thought you were saying the actual guy. Still, though. Yeah. In 1929, that's a bad omen. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, let's crash the stock market and put Hitler in power.

Is that's the other thing. We almost avoided them. if the stock market didn't crash he wouldn't have got in why's that because germany as bad as it was in the early 20s then he went away to prison and they weren't balling or anything but like the economy recovered just enough that people were like all right you know we can live and then the stock market crash affected the whole globe crashed everything again he had come out of prison and then wow vacuum i didn't know that i wonder if they were cooking it up right there yeah all right so we're going to get this guy joe kennedy

he's going to buy and speculate on all these stocks. All these people just like sit in rooms and fuck each other. I know. It's we got to just like, like somebody has to tell us the story, right? So I was saying this to a guy, a guy I know, knows a lot of these people. And he's freaked out, right? He's not okay with it. He's learning things now that are blowing his mind.

Like people that he's met and, you know, worked for or whatever. and he's like, you know, what is happening in the world, basically. He's pushing me, but he's like, you have to explain this to me. I'm like, I have to explain it to you. You know what I mean? Like, you've been in the room, my God. You know, like, but I said to him, I was like, look, there have to be a bunch of people who like participate in this in some way,

know a lot, but did nothing with little girls or whatever. And they have to want to, like, clear their name. And this guy was immediately, he's like, no. He's like, not right now. It won't happen. He's like, because right now everybody assumes that if anybody gets in trouble there, to get pardoned by Donald Trump. He's like, so until, but if one person goes down, then there's a bazillion people who will

talk because they have to believe that they're going to go to prison if they don't. They think they're going to get pardoned by Donald Trump. According to this guy. So I'm like, so this is not thinking, all right, someone's got to go down. Your first, Leon, that's my, that's my thought here. It's just like, he's the most obvious worst guy. I cannot, there's no possible explanation for something like, I think we got to be a little focus here. I think we got like, it's already in the SDN way files the whole case against him.

Like, we just need people in power to make the choice. Like, it has to cost them to not prosecute. It has to cost people in power right now. Which actually is a segue to thing I'm dying to tell you about. Please. Which is, I just published this thing on Saturday. Okay. Oh, yeah. He's, Henry's back in the game now. Back in the game. He entered back in. He like, this is how I described it. I was, I was actually, I was talking with Mark Gagnon about this. And I'm like, Henry basically walked in, hit like a fucking 550 foot walkoff shot and walked out of Yankee Stadium. Never looked at it again.

No one cared. No one appreciated it. And now he's like, y'all, I'm back. I'm here, dog. And I don't know. Like, I will not be the one to like narrate the bigger picture. It's dizzying to me. But there's like, I feel like I've got a clear view of like some things.

Yes. Right? And like, I'm going to take responsibility for those things. And one of the things that's just been like driving me batch of crazy is Jay Clayton runs the Southern District of New York right now. Yeah. Okay. So let's just talk about Jay Clayton for a second. So he graduated from college, went to law school, and then he worked at Sullivan and Cromwell, which may have come up 12 or 15 times today.

Then at Sullivanville, his, let's see, his private clients there were, um, a who's who of Epstein friends. Reed Hoffman, Barclays, when it was run by Jess Staley. Goldman Sachs was his big client, Harvey Weinstein's company. Oh, that's nice. Deutsche Bank,

UBS, which actually has some Gleine Maxwell ties. And also this guy, Paul Tudor Jones, who's maybe come up, you know, I'm not sure. Big hedge fun guy. Big hedge fun guy. So he worked for all those people. made a lot of money. And then Trump appointed him to run the SEC in the first administration.

At this time, now there's like very credible information that the SEC did not adequately police Apollo during that period. Yeah, there it is from your work. Okay. So then he's running the SEC. And then there was a very strange news story where Bill Barr met with Jeffrey Berman, who did run the SD&Y in the first administration, is the person who arrested Epstein. Bill Barr meets with them in the Pierre Hotel and says,

we're going to go in a different direction. We don't want you to run the SD&Y anymore. And he's like, look, you don't have the authority to fire me. I'm staying. And so then Bill Barr releases a press release and he's resigned. And he holds a press conference and says, I have not. And they have this like standoff. And what they want to do is bring in Jay Clayton.

This is public that they're going to bring in Jay Clayton to replace Jeffrey Berman. Jeffrey Berman went on fresh air and told Terry Gross that they want to to do this, I'm quoting now, to disrupt and delay the investigations we were pursuing. What, when, this is 2019? Uh, well, we're 2018. 2020. 2020.

So this is, wow, last year. Yeah, here, this is from your piece right here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, June 9, this is Berman talking that June 19, 2020, he called me to a meeting at it. It's kind of weird that the AG's calling you to a meeting at a sweet. the Piero Hotel in New York. That's a little weird to me. And he's from the CIA too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And as soon as the meeting began, he told me that he wanted to make a change. He wanted me to resign and take the position at Maine Justice and he wanted to put in Jay Clayton. Why was Jay Clayton considered a Trump ally? Berman says, well, Jay Clayton was currently the chairman of

the Securities and Exchange Commission, but the important thing, and I knew what Barr's agenda was. It wasn't to have someone nominated and confirmed by the Senate that remember this is five months before the election. Barr's agenda was to get somebody in immediately as acting U.S. attorney pending whatever nomination was going to happen, but to get someone in immediately in the Southern District, someone from the outside, someone who he trusted, which would disrupt and delay the investigations we were pursuing, which included, as we mentioned, the Steve Bannon, we build the wall investigation as well as the Ukraine investigation that we were pursuing. pursuing out of the indictments of Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman. I wonder if he's also holding in, I don't know this, I'm speculating, I wonder if he's holding in the Epstein thing too. So then Clayton doesn't get this job. They end up appointing Berman's assistant to do it for a little while, kind of a compromise

and Berman steps away. And then the first, then Clayton resigns from the SEC. and goes back into private practice where he works with Sullivan and Cromwell again, while he's also the chairman of the board of Apollo Global. He makes $500,000 a year as this like outside appointee to the chairman. Well, initially he's got some like outside director title,

but then he becomes the chairman of Apollo Global. It's a serious position. And then he goes right from that appointment into running. He's never been a prosecutor. of any kind. And when Trump's first takes office the second time, one of his first appointments is Jay Clayton is going to run the Southern District of New York. And now we know that they have in their files just a fat trove of Leon Black stuff that nothing's happening with that. And so to me, like this is where it comes back to what you guys do and us and the people listening to this

and watching this is, you know, are we cool with that? So far we've been cool with that. They're not marching in the streets about Jay fucking Clayton, you know? But like, I'm not cool with it, right? Like, I'm not, if he were to say that there's nothing in the files with prosecuting, like, I do not believe it. Right? Because I've read the fucking files.

100%. You know, so what's he doing there? How could this possibly be the choice? It's an insight. It's just right. It's right. It's just when it's, I almost appreciate it. Don't take this the wrong way.

but like, I almost appreciate it when they actually take the effort to cover it up. Do better. Because when they just throw it right in your face to where you're leaving your report writing about, you know, fucking LeBron James's latest negotiations with the front office of the Lakers to see something obvious like this and be like, people, why aren't we looking at this? Like, that's crazy. Or I'm sitting here and Dief and I can look through emails and be like, why aren't we talking? People out there can go on to Twitter and say, look at this.

email, why are we, but it's offensive. It's offensive to basic intelligence. And you make the point about the protest. I've been saying that too. I'm not a protest guy, right? You wouldn't catch me dead at this stuff. But like, First Amendment matters and I support people's right to do it. You know, I watch cities burn because one guy died. Yeah. We're talking about satanic child trafficking rituals here, and you see nothing. And I talked about that on a recent episode. We put out the clip and many people commented 100% correctly. They said, yeah. because it's not in the government's interest and they don't fund it with their dark money. Yeah.

Well, and also, look, I spent a lot of time examining digital traffic at ESPN, right? Just we're trying to, like, what's a hit story? We're trying to make hit stories, right? Just kind of seeing what works. And, like, the fact is, like, you know, the George Floyd, George Floyd's death has powerful narrative force, right? It's just like. Of course. And it's not really one guy, right?

Like a million people have seen or felt something similar, right? So like it's, it checks out in the emotional stores of tons of people who see it, right? Like lots of people have been knelt on. There's a, right? Well, what you're saying is there's a video of it too. So people could viscerally be like, what the fuck. There's a movie scene. There's a powerful movie.

Like, this thing we're talking about, like, you and I have spent years looking into it. We're still like fucking sure what it even is. Right. Right. So like it just doesn't have, like, before you can put your life on the line to go, standing in front of like the whatever like the tanaman square tank or whatever like you have to really be clear about what it is that's what i'm saying there yet i would have said that i probably still would have seen that argument pre january 30th for the most part but now even

though they're redacted the pictures and videos we have you see him holding the jeffrey upstein holding little girls who in some cases look like they're eight years old it's like now we have that now you got you got those moments and it's the most powerful people doing it and it's like they're big club and it just sits so every part of it sits so fucking wrong with me man no me too and i'm like okay what's the the number of people that i'm like pretty certain should be like behind bars is a lot a lot it's a big number but they're not behind So they're doing stuff. I just got a picture, a friend of mine was at a Knicks game the other day and Leon Black was there.

And I'm like, I'm like, okay, so he gets to like, he's shown his face. Slump around in public and do it. And I'm like, all right, man, at the very least, I'm going to tell you like, like, I don't care what you say about anything. I think you're lying on everything. And like, and I don't know how much of that affects him in the rest of his life, but I think it's unpleasant to go around and have people just be like, whatever, man, like blah, blah, blah, blah.

I do think it's important not to, there's a Wizard of Oz component to this too, where I think that it seems like, for sure, Leon Black is like deeply, deeply connected to some very, very proud people in ways that are hard to explain. And everybody from victims writing in their journals to like my friend who works on Wall Street

are like, you know, no, he's like untouchable because of like stuff I don't understand. Right, he's in some kingpin position and someone I understand. So in a way it's like, man, mess with mess with that bull, you're going to get the horns, right? That's probably true. But the other hand, I'm like, I don't fucking buy it.

I'm also just like, he's the little, he's a little guy. He's actually a big guy. But like, you know, pulling some strings behind the curtain, trying to make it look like the great and powerful Oz, right? And like, I think it's important just to be like, I think when this is all done and we understand it a lot better, like, we're going to be like, those fucking losers. I don't think they're going to be like these great mastermind criminals.

I think they're going to be like, nice try, guys. Like, it worked for a long time. Yeah, I hope you're right. But they need to be ostracized. Did you know? And don't do anything stupid to people, even though we don't trust the justice system because they're fucking up, like, that is what it is. But ostracized from like, no, you can't just, who the fuck, you know, we see people heckle athletes at every fucking game. Heckle that guy.

Yeah. Heckle the shit. That's, yeah, it's legal. You can do that. You know what I mean? And it's just so that air of superiority that this Epstein class has. there's no better example of it than Howard Letnik. There's, and I hate that guy.

I really have a despondent nature of my soul that just fucking, and part of it is because I defended him in the past on calls over the years of my friend Danny Jones because he would come up with other stuff. And I had known Howard Lettick's story on Wall Street. Like he was a guy that

like saved Canter Fitzgerald. His brother died in the tower. He lost 650 of his people in one day. and somehow kept it all together. And it was like a good story. And I think something about having just defended him in that respect, you know, when other people raised questions about him over the years and then to see him so blatantly lie in people's face,

I mean, the way that he concocted that story in that interview. And I said I will never spend any time around that disgusting. Just it was so dramatic and perfect. And he knew damn well. Yeah. He was in all these emails with him. He knew damn well he'd been on that island.

And then once it all came out, he still had the balls not only to not resign, but he had the balls to go in front of Congress and say, yeah, I lied. What are you going to do about it? Yeah. And he's still advising the president today. That's Leon Black to me. It's the same class of people. That arrogance, fuck you, dude.

Yeah. I hate it. And I just, you know, and I try not to hate anybody. You know, I try to live and let live. So it's just like my anger talking right now, but just the contempt. He's earned it. Yeah, the contempt I have for someone like that. He's holding the back.

You know, like his sons run like World Liberty and Financial era, which is the greatest way Trump's been enriched since he's been in office. And like so that's why he's untouchable, right? I would guess, right? He's like he's holding the back, right? He's holding. Yeah. Yeah.

And I, to me, like, we have not well understood all the nooks and crannies of this. But I think we've gone far enough down the road to know that like Howard Lundick's going to get to sample life without credibility because of his wealth and his wealth. his, you know, zip code and dress or whatever. Like, he got to just be, like, one of the guys. And life was pretty good for Howard Ludnik, right? Not anymore. I think now it's like, he's not going to be shunned from much in his daily life,

but he's not going to, he can't hold a press conference and sway anyone on any topic ever again. And, or there's another one is I, I've been messing with Claude as everybody has, you know. And I put in the current and past membership of the Council of Foreign Roarrow. relations. Oh, yeah. And I was just like, hey, can you find, like, you summarize like what Epstein ties we have here? And Claude's like, oh, buddy, we don't have time. You know?

Like, it's like, this is really a lot, you know? And I'm like, okay, so that's, it used to work. Like that organization is an emblem of many others, but it used to be a good enough system to do whatever the hell they're doing, right? But I was interested, I think John Carriaco told you that like his friend got senior enough that she would go to those meetings, like it's all those arms trading, right? So I'm like, okay. So like we thought that maybe it was something Ivy Leagueish or, you know, something beyond us.

But no, it's like they're just selling missiles, right? That's what they're doing, I guess. Yeah. So and then, and then, I mean, according to Claude, you were saying those people knew Jeffrey Epstein. I'm like, well, that's, that's interesting. Yeah. I don't think that. They're not a credible organization to me anymore.

Yeah. There have been some people, you got to make some decisions fast when you're doing this. Like, oh, well, we have this guest in or that guest in. And sometimes, like, you'll see some weird connections and you'll be like, all right, fuck it. We'll do it. But there have been some people that were closely associated with that that I was interested in the subject matter that they were going to bring, but I didn't do it. Oh, really? Yeah, because I've done some past podcasts, I'm like, I shouldn't have done that.

Oh, really? what I mean. Now, it's hard when you're dealing with people in like DC that are anywhere near lobbying, which is just the dirtiest business ever, if you actually run into someone who's being vaged for is like, no, no, I really like this guy or whatever. You're still always going to find money and connections. It's like, oh, that's, oh, they're funded by Soros, like shit like that. And you got to try to make a call. My best way to look at it is like we put it on camera and people out there can listen to them for three hours it's hard to hide for three hours you know what i mean but there's going to be a point where like you hit a brick wall it comes out it comes out if someone's really

surreptitiously doing things i really believe that i think i think people at home are not stupid about that at all i think i think they pick up on that well i followed that for years like in comment sections but sometimes like the guys with council of foreign relations i'm like i can't do it you know what are you going to be advocating, who are you going to sell me? It, like, it just feels like they always need a war. Yeah. And those are the guys at the middle of it. I think we just shift, like, it makes me sad.

I'm a dad, and, you know, I have one kid in college and one kid recently graduated, and they have smart friends. And it makes me kind of sad that, like, you know, these wonderful, hardworking young people, like, come over and, you know, you're just like, you're rooting for them, right? But by and large, if they want to make the most possible money out of college, they have to go do something for these guys. There's almost no one else to work for that can pay you top top dollar. You're somehow in this tree of like people who know Leon Black and run big stuff. Right?

I mean, it used to be even like, you know, when I was at NYU from 91, 95, there were so many just local businesses in Manhattan run by like mom and pop. or whatever, right? And now, like, just the coffee shop downstairs in any building, like, they have to, like, cut a deal with the private equity guy who owns the building. Yep. Because they can't afford the rent. So they're kind of like this, like, boutique show coffee shop. They're not real, real entrepreneurs, right? And it's just sad. It's like, it's like this strange mall where ultimately decisions are all made by Leon Black or someone like him, right? And I'm like, in that environment, like, you certainly aren't going to go start a coffee shop. No. You know, like, it's rigged.

You got to do like, you have to petition to the lords to do almost anything in the business world. And that is not in the interest of the free market or America, right? Like, we definitely want to have a different market where the best coffee shop entrepreneur has the most money from coffee. Right. Right. We don't have anything like that right now. And so when you're talking about these people, like, there probably are really smart people who started with love in their hearts who just got, I'm sorry. got ground down a little bit over time into doing these like, well, we don't touch that one

and we're going to avoid this and just don't ask me any questions about that. And next thing you know, you're emailing Jeffrey Epstein about how to raise money for your fund or whatever, which a lot of good people did, right? The good scientists and stuff. Like, death by a thousand cuts in a way. Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right about that. And that's the thing. It's like if you were around this guy, there's always going to be the question. Yeah. It's always going to be the question. Like, how much is it? And then the volume of it, you have to question that at some point. years of three years ago i had a guy in that seat laurence grouse who's in the emails not in a good way 500 times he didn't do very well you know what i mean no and like it is hard for me to believe

you are innocent if you are corresponding with that individual that much he's the one who is the arizona state yep yeah yep and he was trying to get epstein on joe rogan back in 2017 you know because he had just going on the show. But like guy who was respected in the physics world, done some very interesting work. We got along with him well when he was here. But like you can't ignore that, you know? And it's like how many, does that mean?

Because I know who like introduced me to him to be like, bring him on the show. I think that guy's fine. He's nowhere in the files, right? Yeah. But how far does it stretch? Is it just you took a picture with him a few times? Or did you have 7,500 emails?

You know, there's, levels to it. But if you were even around it, there's always going to be that thing where it's like, yeah. How well? How well did you know, you know? It's kind of, and this is where I'm like, whole truth, right? Like, I don't really care if Lawrence can like explain away his particular thing. I'm like, no, no. Like, that's not the problem we have. I don't care, frankly, if it was you or another person like you. Like, what I want to know is everything you know. Like, what was happening? What was the story? Like, what made you feel weird? What means you know? What made you know? You know, who was there?

What else did they say? And like, this is where nobody's doing that. Literally no one is narrating the lived experience. Other than like, like, I, Michael Wolf is a tricky figure in this. The author. The author. Like, I pay for his substack and I listen to Fairman on his podcast just because at least of the people who were in the room with Jeffrey Epstein. He's one of the only ones who, like, tells stories.

Yes. I don't know if I trust his storytelling totally. He's a little more implicated than I'm comfortable with. But at least he's trying to tell a story. Yeah. And like, what was Steve Bannon doing there? He's a guy who will, like, riff on that, you know? And that's another thing, because we should get into Bannon now, too.

But the Michael Wolf, Steve Bannon dynamic is so bizarre. Because Michael Wolf does that famous book in 2017, where he had this unprecedented access to the Trump administration, which I'm like, why would they have given him that? they knew he didn't like them. And Steve Bannon gave him all the access and he made Steve Bannon look like a jackass but they're talking like buddies long after that here.

It's very strange. Like have you pulled on that thread at all? Like what the bigger picture is there? I was, I mean, I don't know, but to me like, so then Steve Bannon gets arrested like on Guo Wingay's yacht and that guy's like a The Jeffrey Epstein of China basically, right? He's like I literally was setting up people

and sexual. Oh, I don't know much about that. Yeah, so that guy, if you, like, there's published, that's on Troop too somewhere, but like there's, you know, he ran a bunch of hotels and had hidden cameras

and like, had pull with the party because he had people on video doing this to that. And then they kicked him out, right? kicked him out. Well, it's hard to know. Was he, like, right? Right, right? Like, or is he like the guy

who can run money offshore now because you cleaned up the party or whatever? And they say he's wanted. I got you. Yeah, I don't know. But, so, so Bainon's, What Bannon's really doing is way more sorted than being this right-wing nut job in Trump's ear, right? He's making a currency with that guy.

They were trying to make some digital money. They were doing all kinds of crazy stuff. And what he really wants to do is clear the decks for no crypto regulation, which is a way for the worst people in the world to move giant's amount of money without oversight. So to me, like maybe this Michael Wolf thing is that it looked like kind of a simpleton. Right? He looked like a guy who was easy to understand and definitely not like a high level. Right. Epstein accomplice. You, you were, you were the first guy to paint the picture of like Steve's full timeline, though, which is crazy because then I would find I would get totally unrelated tidbits in other conversations with other people over the next two, three years where they would mention some about Ben and a place he was in some year.

And I was like, what the fuck? And to me, and I've said this privately to people for years, and I've talked about it publicly now too. I, since reading your stuff, I don't see a scenario where he's not a spy. Yeah, I don't, I mean, you know more people in that world than I do. But like, I, if you just look at like the things he's interested in, like Cambridge Analytica is like a mind control company. That they were investing in in 1992, effectively.

Yeah. and and you know he's right there with milken in those years and yeah then now he's got this extensive Epstein relationship like it just doesn't check out it just doesn't make sense that this would be a career and now like and what's with this like tons of partying as house and DCs you follow this like make it make sense yeah there's an article you can't find anymore maybe people out there will be able to find it but i want to say it was from like bloomberg business week they did a big spread on him after he was named chairman of the campaign late summer 20 2016 you know people are now learning who this steve banon figure is and the author talked about a

i can't remember if the article was from before and they were just like re-releasing it to talk about who he was or if they were writing it now but the author talked to about how Steve gave him full access to him, you know, a few years before. And he went to the townhouse with him and they just had this wild conversation. Like, for example, Steve Bannon said one of his favorite people that he respects the most on TV was Rachel Maddow. Like, I was like, what the fuck? Like, she believes everything the opposite. He's like, yeah, but she's brilliant. And here's how she builds her cases and stuff. Interesting. So he's showing him some pictures on like the mantle, like straight out of a movie scene. And the author said, what, what are your

politics. Like, what do you believe? Yeah. And Steve Bannon said, and I'm almost directly quoting here, but I can't find this article. He said, I'm a Leninist. And the guy said, Leninist, like Vladimir Lenin from the Soviet Union, he goes exactly. And he's like, there's a communist. You hate communist. He goes, no, no, I'm not a communist. I'm a Leninist. He's like, yeah, explain to me the difference. And he goes, I want to burn it all down. And it's so emblematic of the actions, that he takes politically, and then you see how he's talking behind the scenes. And not only does it appear he's not burning it down, it appears he's actually, you know, setting up where all the fire extinguishers need to be for these people.

Yeah. It's very, very odd. Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, in 2017, he got on the National Security Council for a while. Mm-hmm. Like, for him personally, maybe it's like a fun thrill or something. But it doesn't make any, you know, he's a political advisor. Right.

And it didn't last long. But I'm like, okay, if you're a political advisor, then this is not terribly meaningful. But if you're a spy, it's the, oh, look at that. Look at Deep got it, bro. That's interesting. Yeah. What was this from, Dee's? Oh, you got it on archive.if,

Daily Beast, yeah. That's it. But if you're a spy, right, then being on the security council is like 10 times more valuable, right? Yeah. You learn stuff that you give to somebody else, right? I don't know what I'm saying I know who that would be,

but like it seems like, was the email and what I've seen about that? I wonder, I haven't seen that. Like, who's like, no, no, no, make, tell Trump to put you on security council, right? Like, who was that? Who was in it? Bands here about that. I like to know that.

The question I've always asked since reading your stuff and then doing more work on it and like trying to figure it out is who and I've talked. I like Danny Jones and I've gone back and forth about this for years. Who was he a spy for? Yeah. And where I'm at right now at this point is no one. Like as far as intelligence agencies go, I'm sure he had he was like an access agent in a way like a Robert Maxwell kind of character with no real. dominant allegiance, I would guess. Just guessing. But like the people that maybe he really was doing it for was that secret class, you know, the Rockefellers of the world, the Rothschilds of the world,

insert it here. And somehow he got in that position. He's like the man in there checking in to make make sure this Trump guy doesn't burn down our fucking system right here. You can keep his ass in line. I wonder if that's what it is because he finds his way up next to all these people over all. the years. I mean, you're talking about the guy who finance fucking Seinfeld. Like, come on. What the hell? Like what, you know, you see that and that he gets royalties on that to this day. Yeah. He's like a fucking billionaire. Yeah. It checks out. It's well also, you know, if you were Steve Bannon and you see Jeffrey Epstein and how things are going for him, I could see you might be like, that looks pretty good. You know, like I could get some of that. Like, so how do you do that?

Right. I think he did a pretty good job of getting a master class, right? Yeah. Getting in, you know, whoever Epstein worked for, whatever Epstein knew and the leverage that he got. Epstein got to just, I think Bannon's life is a lot harder than Epstein's. You know what I mean? Yeah. He gets to parade around on private jets with 17 pairs of readers everywhere he goes. And like, I don't know how Bann's living, man, but it looks harder.

Yeah. You can see the wear and tear on his face, man. He looks like he's going through it every time he talks. Just like, fuck, man. Look, are you, are you old? Listen, just give me my Jack and Coke. And let's get through this. Totally.

Yeah. That's like the best picture of them too. Yeah. Yeah, it gets worse from there. He's weathered. He is weathered for sure. But what, you know, did you come across when you were originally investigating this? Obviously, we got a lot more look through into some of the really, really satanic kind of stuff in these latest.

emails. But did you come across anything that pointed in that type of direction back in 2020, 2020, where it's like, oh, maybe they're like sacrificing kids? Yeah. Have you followed Kirby Summer at all? Do you I'm talking about? That does sound familiar. So she was, um, she's all over Twitter and stuff. Um, she's a victim of, she was like kept as a sex slave by she says you know and i see no reason not to believe her um a guy named ira ricklis um so i have seen this so mshulam ricklis like invented private equity in the

u.s and um he bought pick fair which is like this famous house in hollywood that later was dr jerry bus's house um and he married piazadora i want to say Michelle and Rickliss did. And I tried to connect with Kirby Summer and like, you know, and like she says a lot of things that are along these lines. And I'm inclined to believe her, but I never know like how she knows it. And so, you know, we just, I have to try to be journalistic and bet this, right? Yes.

It's a difficult thing. It's very, very difficult to do. But she's written a bunch of books. And so, you know, the notion that all this like, like in the version, she is not alone in telling this version. There are a bunch of people who are like, no, it's thousands of people and it's murderous and it's satanic and it's, you know, Hollywood galore and, you know, people are groomed from young ages and all this kind of version of events. I, you know, I just didn't know what to do with it, right? Like, I'm worried for the people involved and I just didn't have a way to get to like step two of like, you know, can we confirm this fact and we're like, what this time of place?

And so for me, I'm like, I'm open to it. I'm open to it. It seems pretty convincing. I'm also surprised that there aren't more, like, if you didn't have some big method of controlling everybody, like, there would be whistleblowers, if that makes sense. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. You know, and every now and again, like some Hollywood starlet or young star will come and be like, you guys don't understand. Like, you know, like, everybody was molested when we were all on the kids show together.

And most of the rest of the group was like, I don't know what he's talking about. And I'm like, who's lying here? Right. Honestly, a thing that really freaked me out. This really freaked me out was Harvey Weinstein kind of sideline to the careers of some promising young actresses who wouldn't sleep with them, right? Maybe do you remember their names? I forget right now. But, you know, they're names that we know.

And so they had been in some movies and TV shows and had some level of success. and then encountered this roadblock of they wouldn't become sexual playthings of Harvey. And he's like, oh, you're kind of done. And then essentially the rest of Hollywood, their friends, some of them, presumably, right, just said nothing. That's what's crazy. Freak me out. That freaked me out. I'm like, why?

You know how eager Hollywood people are to talk about good causes and fighting a good fight and all this stuff? And like, well, your friend has had her career ended because she won't sleep with this rich guy. And like everybody's silent? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, an example, like, I'm a fan of Brad Pitt, love his movies, you know, and I don't know what happens behind closed doors, but Brad Pitt apparently famously when he was dating Gwyneth Paltrow, who ran into problems with Harvey Weinstein, said, like, threatened to beat the shit out of her, like, kill Harvey Weinstein if he went anywhere near her or whatever. but then it's like that was in the mid-90s 12, 13 years later, stars in one of my favorite movies of all time

and glorious bastards by the Weinstein Company. Oh wow. And it's like, I mean, selfishly, I'm glad he did. It was a fucking great movie, but, you know, we didn't know at the time the darkness of like Harvey Weinstein behind the scenes, but you wonder what that is, that cognitive dissonance or whatever. Yeah.

You know, and even like not necessarily on camera or whatever, if I ever met Brad Pitt and was just talking with him privately, I would, I'd want to ask him about that. Yeah, what's the deal? What's the calculation there? Yeah. Was it just, were you like, you know what? As long as he's not on set, I'll just fucking do this. And then overlooking things you knew in the past.

And do you feel bad about that? Or were, was it more like, well, I guess it's just the way things work and you're accepting it, which either one has problems to it, to be clear. Or, I mean, this is crazy? Or is there not an option that's better? You know, like that one made news, but maybe the other producers involved in the other options you'd like occur out of. Like, maybe they're just not good either. Yeah.

Yeah, I, you know. And there's people where you see stuff that they came up with through Hollywood and you're like, mm. Yeah. Something. There's one I'm thinking of right now that is just so textbook where it's like, oh, my God, he was around that guy who later went to prison for diddle and all these. but I don't like to speculate on that publicly because it's a personal thing. Even if they're a star, obviously. You know, I think probably I've been guilty of that in the past, speculating on some stuff.

But you know, there's some sort of darkness there that people don't talk about at dinner parties. Yeah. They talk about it at the after party when they're forced to. Yeah, for sure. But it's fucked up. I had a weird day of call. I think about this all the time. Sitting around regular day at NYU in the 90s.

And we're talking about something, you know, just kind of like gross men touching women, right? And like basically everyone in the room is like, oh, yeah, you know, it happens. And mostly they're like, oh, you know, like we got to put a fucking stop to this, right? But there was one woman who was like, no, it's just part of life. You just got to deal with that. And I was like, this is surprising to me. Like, this is like, I mean, I'm not going to say that's like a wrong position.

But I think like that person's probably a steadier bet to be a Hollywood star. than everyone else in the room. Yes, because they're willing, psychological profile. These people are excellent at that. Yeah, unfortunately. Yeah. The predators know when they got one.

And I think, so this is, honestly, you asked how I got into this. Like, part of it is a little bit of this dynamic, which is, like, I think the number one criteria for having a sustained NBA career is to not be a whistleblower. Right? Like, you can't be, like, you know, Alvin Gentry, He's a very proud man.

And I really respect him and think he's a cool guy. But he was Donald Sterling's head coach for a long time. I'm like, I'm telling you just from like friends who work in the band, it's like, you don't, of course you don't think. Of course you don't. Can you tell people who Donald Sterling was? Oh, sorry. Donald Sterling owned the Clippers and, you know, was kicked out of the league for.

Lifetime band. Lifetime ban for being like blatantly racist on. It's like he's telling, he's married. But he has like a girlfriend on the side and he's telling her, on the audio not to come to games with black people. And, you know, it's a little bit worse than that. But, you know, but I will tell you that Donald Sterling was surrounded by women he paid to hang around with him and to entertain. And he threw parties that a whole bunch of the NBA world, you know, players, media, people who media who are on TV and went to these parties in the, in many cases.

They would like hand you a woman as you arrived. And, and, you know, everybody knew all about this for years. And he got in huge trouble. He was like a real estate magnet, but he wouldn't let non-white people live in his garage properties, including like his wife being on tape saying, we're not going to have these people living here, blah, blah, blah. They got in trouble with, like, he was just a bad. It was famously a bad guy and everybody knew it.

And they didn't kick him out forever. And the whole time he had like a GM and a coach and all these people who just like just to not along. And you know, he's the overt case that now has been exposed. But I'm telling you there's like there's not a, I don't know, maybe there's not a billionaire who's like doesn't have as this criteria. Like don't rock the boat, right? If you want to work in the NBA, you, the first criteria is protect the billionaire, right?

So what worries me isn't NBA. I don't think it matters very much. Well, I mean, it does because I, because we love it, right? Yeah. But what worries me is I think the same dynamic is true in lots of businesses, right? Wall Street, Hollywood, you know, I don't know how the arms business works. But if you just take the business I just described, it's a giant chunk of the U.S. economy. Yes. We're like, we're just like everyone's in this protection racket.

Yeah, you get to a point where you like cross the Rubicon and it's like, ah, he's untouchable. Yeah. He has escape velocity. Yeah. You know, I agree. Yeah. there were a couple times before where and this is what gets me you know i'm going to keep this shit to myself because it's it's it's un to me it's unproven or whatever it's anecdotal but i remember a couple times in new york city sitting next to people i didn't fucking know who were openly talking about texts

out loud with me and other people there who could listen to what they were saying with extremely powerful people. This happened twice that I can think of off the top of my head. Saying things that if it ever got out to public, those people would never fucking be seen. They'd be Donald Sterling. Yeah. And I'm like, that's why I've always thought

about it because I'm like, this asshole sitting here in this place in New York is just saying this to people to hear, but nothing's going to happen to that person. And I do think you guys stand up a little bit. Like maybe, let's admit everyone's not going to be a hero here. But like,

the number of heroes is too small. You know, like, if you have an inkling to join, like, you and, like, just, like, start being like, yo, what's up with this? Like, I think it is very powerful for the tide to turn a little bit, right? So right now it's like, oh, like, 12 guys online are really mad at Leon Black. It's like, well, if it's a thousand, like, that's a whole different thing. Especially when you can really get evidence. Yeah.

When you can real, that's a big part of it, too. Because, like I said, like, the two I'm thinking of, fucking asshole could have been a co-kehead. blowing smoke and it might not be real. Didn't sound that way to me. But like with this, Leon Black, we can point to it. We'd be like, yo, look at this, look at this claim, looking at him with this person in this year, look at Henry's report about the money

that was being funneled to him in 1988. Look who's connected to that. It's like it's right there. The public can fucking put this together. It's crazy to me. Well, that's where I'm like, this last file dump, I don't understand what happened. Like, at the same time that they held back half the fire.

breaking the law and redacted a bunch of things to redact. They also just shared way too much to keep it covered up. Right? Like I know we should all be mad about what's redacted, but also like, thank you. Like this is an unbelievable, like I don't know, like what do you think happened inside the Department of Justice where they were like, that's a go, that's a go?

Like they shared an unbelievable roadmap to Epstein's activities that is completely damning to dozens of people. Like was it insubordination? I just understand what's happening here. Like we just, I feel like we got way too much. We're never going back now. Campaign promises, followed by public outcry when they tried to walk it back, followed by already public information that was known from investigations into this case and how weird it was.

Followed by an expectation that like everything else, people would get over it, and they seem to have miscalculated on at least some of that, hopefully. followed by it could be a red herring for what they're not releasing to try to tell us like look at all we're giving you but by the way don't pay attention to the fact that all the files between 1999 and 2001 aren't released and whoops we released that email about the shadow commission of 9-11 you weren't supposed to see that but nothing there what is that bro i mean that that that had that scared us when we read that what's your understanding of it i don't even really understand it john chiroika was having a full-blown, I know John, like he was having an existential moment in front of me when he read that email. He literally was like, I've never seen the guy speechless in my life. Yeah. I mean, guys got stories for days. Yeah. He was speechless. Because you could tell even the things that he thought he knew about that day. There's a lot of stuff that it's like, people are like, what the fuck was going on there? But like, even the stuff that he thought he knew, you could see

in real time him going, oh, maybe that's not even. real and why aren't we getting those so i i don't know henry but it's a good point like they have given us a lot and i'll give the administration that they're the first all these democrat and republican administrations before them have completely covered it up totally this is the first one that's like trying i do have to say that but you know now you got to release it all they have to they have to it's and what's in there what's in there like what's in there i mean yeah it's if this is the good stuff Like, what the fuck is the bad stuff? I'm laughing, but only like...

It's crazy. No, I know. I know why you laughing. It's nuts. And I'll tell you another thing that happens... Okay, so journalism might not be the right tool to crack this. Here's what I'm saying. So, the way journalism works is I have to...

Oh, it's only me. Like, from my point of view, I have to, you know, get the evidence and then publish it, right? And so if I'm trying to figure out... like what was Leon Black doing? Like, it's very, very hard, you know, to get the evidence. But so this guy, Jeff Asher, who's a friend of mine, and he publishes on like crime stats, but he used to be an analyst with the CIA. And in the middle of this operation I was doing in the pandemic, he was like, oh, you should read this book on like, it's like the handbook on intelligence analysis. Did you know him previously?

No, I don't remember exactly how we met. He's a great guy, though. Great guy. just came into your life when the true hoop guy started to sway away from the hoops. No, but he's an, I'm telling you, he's an analyst. Like, he's definitely from, like, the dorky end of the CIA. But in any case, you recommended a really good book, which you guys should read called The Psychology of Intelligence Analysis by Jay Richards Hewer. And it's like, it's basically if you're an analyst, your job is to take, like, all this human intel and you're going to advise the president and say, like, we think this guy will be

a nice leader of a rant. And here's why. You have to like, and you have to be, like, all of the methods you have to use within your own head to be accurate about that are probabilistic and sober and you have to not be emotional. You have to defeat your own emotional thinking. And so that seems to me much more useful than what journalists do, which is like the Watergate model of like, ah, like we've got deep throat and now we have all the evidence and we busted the bad guys. It's like, we don't, we're not going to have that opportunity. maybe we will going forward now after this file dump, but we haven't had that opportunity.

I certainly didn't have it before this file dump, right? So I'm just going to like, so instead I have to think probabilistically, like what's going on here? Which is actually how I did my job as an editor. I used to oversee a team of reporters, and I would basically say, like, I think there's gold if you dig here.

I can't map it for you, but I see a lot of signals, and we never missed. Like, there was gold every time. And like, this is where I feel like, okay, so 9-11 is one of these ones that like, I don't know what the fuck's going.

on with 9-11. But I know that it does not stop coming up. That's right. It just like, why is, we're talking about a money-lenderer sex trafficker. Why do we keep talking about 9-11? Like, I am not here to tell you that I believe the towers were intentionally brought down by some conspiracy. But I know that like the people who work in this space can't shut up about the fact that our story, not the straightforward story. Like it's, there's just, there's more to it. And the same douchebags who are involved in this Epstein story are heavily involved in this nine. Like, why would Galane Maxwell be invited to the shadow? Why would there be a shadow commission and why would she be on it, right?

What the hell? We're not close to understanding that. And why is a journalist asking her to be on it, by the way, journalist at Epstein? But that, you know, did you know people who died in the tower? It was you're from the area. That was a scary day. We thought we thought a friend of ours He was like supposed to be there

And all day the phones weren't working You know so the whole day I was like Fricked out but turns out He wasn't there Where were you that day? I was in New Jersey Yeah But yeah that was that was crazy

That was a scary day So when you're from this part of the world I'm from South Jersey But like we knew a couple people That died in the tower and everything And you know that again That's like this part of the world here There's things that

I used to just be like, no, no, no, no, it's this, this or that about it, that, you know, even before the story came out over the past year or two, especially, I've had to be like, you know what, Julian, remove, because that's one of the first days I can really remember, like, very well. I was like seven, eight years old. And I just remember everything about that day. And I think there's an emotional imprint that happens there and then kind of imprints your opinion, if you will.

And I've had to step back and be like, you know, I used to think this, this and this at least were, there was always fishy shit. But I'm like, I used to think those things were definitely true. I don't know that anymore. I'm not saying I know what the truth is. I don't think anyone does fully. But it's amazing that you can see things with your own two eyes. Something as drastic as that. And it's like, well, that's not all that was there.

Well, you know, I've lived in Ecuador or I lived in India. and, like, you know, those places had corruption in the sense of, like, you get pulled over and you don't have a legal license, like, you can probably give the guy five bucks. Right. You know? I like those countries. Like, we don't, like, we're very proud in America that, like, you know, like, the food is all safe in the grocery store. Because the food inspectors aren't taking bribes, presumably, right?

Like, or way less than Ecuador and India. Let me tell you that, right? Like, Russia can't build big things. they can't build planes and stuff anymore because it takes a lot of trust to have a factory that big and they can't muster the trust because everybody's on a take

right? Like we build big things here because you know like the like those skyscrapers you have like you know like the HVAC people trust the steel people who trust the concrete people and like it you know I'm not saying there isn't corruption in there but like we buy in large if you get pulled over try to give the cop five bucks

it might work but I think it's not going to work right like we're proud of that. Like regular Americans, I think, are pretty much not corrupt and pretty proud of that. But at the story that I didn't know until I was too old is that at the top is where we keep our corruption. Yes. Which is a really weird place to keep it. But like that's where, like those people, you know, like these lawyers who take money from BCCI or whatever, you know, there's infinite supply of us.

Like, they are the system. Rules for thee, not for me. Yeah. I'm above it. Yeah. That's our corruption. Like in India, I don't know. I live there in 1993.

I'm sure it's very different now. But, like, it was low-level stuff. Yeah. You know? And we would say kind of like, oh, this backward place. It's like, no, no, no. Like, our corruption is just way bigger. Yep.

Just because you can't see it, don't mean it's not there. That's a great point. Henry, I could talk with you all day about this, man. going for like three hours and 15 minutes or something your work as i have said for years is fucking amazing so people please go subscribe down below to the subsdack true hoop again also great NBA coverage we didn't talk about as much of that my my business partner is like literally the personal coach for a crap ton of the best NBA players they call him every day he preps them every day and like he knows stuff like would blow your mind like this is one category of what we do

There's a very important other category. Yeah, I might need to have him on, too. I'm a huge NBA fan. Oh, you should pick his brain all day. But listen, man, great work. I'm glad to see you back in the game now. Thanks again. And I got a lot more questions, so we may have to do this again.

I'm not far. All right? Everybody else, you know what it is? Give it a thought. You back to me. Peace. What's up, guys? Thanks so much for watching the video.

If you have not subscribed, please hit that subscribe button before you leave, as well as leaving the like on the video. It's a huge help. You can join my Patreon via the link in the description. And you can also join my clipping. community via the Discord link down below. See you for the next episode.