Julian Dorey Podcast - #43 - Mak Kemenosh: "Bitcoin is Freedom"

Episode Date: April 14, 2021

Mak Kemenosh is a Venture Capital / Private Equity Talent Evaluator, Startup Founder, Surfer, and longtime Bitcoin Maximalist. Mak originally began investing in Bitcoin back in 2015 and currently keeps 99% of his financial assets in BTC. He has lived coast-to-coast over the past decade and his extensive startup experience has included companies in the logistics, aviation, and financial services industries. ***TIMESTAMPS*** 6:18 - The religiousness of Bitcoin; Mak’s early days of finding Bitcoin through gold; People can’t get ahead; Money & Health; Money as Tech; Government open to BTC?; Problems with The Fed; “The Bitcoin Standard” by Saifedean Ammous 23:50 - Peter Schiff; Transaction speed of Bitcoin; Bitcoin is like the sun; FDR & the gold bullion recall; Germany post WWI & Venezuela as examples of government currency manipulation gone wrong 40:34 - Who is the real Satoshi Nakamoto?; the Cyprus Crisis of 2013 that drove Bitcoin adoption; Bitcoin as a unit of account; Mak’s earliest days in crypto; The top-down nature of money & BTC; Bitcoin is freedom; private keys explained; The media is terrible; The tradeoff of critical thinking for safety 1:06:11 - Politicians in Covid; Ron DeSantis & Francis Suarez; One issue voters; Barack Obama and the drones question; Osama Bin Laden; Sound money means no wars?; Janet Yellen & Nepotism; The Cantillon Effect 1:26:24 - New York City in Covid; “The State has become God”; End of Roman Empire vibes?; What’s going on Miami right now; Self-driving cars and Covid 19 1:40:40 - Julian recounts his recent visit to NYC; With political ruin of Covid can an outside-the-system thing like Bitcoin “win?”; 1:49:00 - Brainwashing through repetition (with video of KGB Defector, Yuri Bezmenov’s 1984 warning to America about this very problem); Revisiting Nick Gurol’s Flat-Earth Psychology experiment with his round-earth-doubting students (from TRENDIFIER #37 - Nick Gurol) 1:56:28 - What were we doing a year ago when the Pandemic started?; Covid destroyed critical thinking; Jeffrey Epstein and how he is the ultimate symbol of the Fiat Currency System;  2:04:52 - Are all Bitcoiners “good people?”; Bitcoin faucets; Laszlo Hanyecz and the first exchange of Bitcoin for pizza; Bitcoin as a core pillar of basic human needs; The energy usage of Bitcoin mining and why Mak thinks Bitcoin mining will be beneficial to the environment in the long run 2:26:42 - Did Satoshi own BTC ahead of its first day trading on January 3rd, 2009?; Satoshi is Jesus; “I’m here to end the Federal Reserve”; Prominent Bitcoiner, Russell Okung, and his video tweet of the lint roller security guard; We’re at an inflection point in history 2:34:40 - Libertarians, Libertarianism, & Bitcoin; “The Fourth Turning” & Societal Cycles; Can we live in a world of total personal responsibility?; Breaking down the problems with the healthcare system; Covid should’ve been a massive AB Test; Why Trump left office as a member of the swamp; Can BTC be adopted in our two party world?; “It’s time to flip the board over” 2:50:46 - Why Altcoins feature so many scams;... Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It won't take long to tell you Neutral's ingredients. Vodka, soda, natural flavors. So, what should we talk about? No sugar added? Neutral. Refreshingly simple. That doesn't work. It doesn't work.

And like if you really understand Bitcoin. And you're playing chess. With these like establishment knuckleheads. The only way to win the game. Is to fucking flip the board over stand up and be like i'm doing it a different way what's cooking everybody you asked so you shall receive. This is the Bitcoin episode. If you want to know anything about Bitcoin, if you don't, or if you know a lot about Bitcoin and want to hear the

philosophy behind it and just have a nice, good conversation as if you're sitting here, right here with us, discussing it yourself, this is the podcast for you. I am joined in the bunker today by none other than Mr. Mac Kemenosh, aka Bitcoin Jesus. Mac is somebody who's been in Bitcoin for a very long time. He is a true Bitcoin maximalist. Is he the son of Satoshi, aka the son of God, and delivering Bitcoin unto us, and eventually maybe dying for the sins of fiat so that bitcoin can live i don't know i don't know i'm not i'm clearly kidding but you get the picture as far as what we touched today there is not much that we didn't touch when it comes to bitcoin and the system that it is and the opportunity that it represents before i get to some of that list though i do want to say this while i am an open believer in bitcoin and i would even say not the believer

that that mac is because he's on a whole nother level but while i am an open believer in bitcoin and invest my own money in it and have for a long time i am very very very open to the contrarian opinions as well so if if there are people who speak out against bitcoin and have evidence that they find behind their arguments and they want to talk about it, I am open to having someone like that in here. I want all conversations to happen. I think that's a good thing. So I'm just leaving that out there. This does not need to be a constant like, oh, Bitcoin, and we won't hear anything else.

I like the other opinions, whether I agree with them or not. So just keep that in mind. But today, today we talked about, among many other things, I'm just going to list off some of the highlights. We talked about the Bitcoin standard, gold and Bitcoin, history of money problems around the world, which that'll blow your mind if you don't know some of those. Who is Satoshi? Is it Pomp? Cyprus, like the country in the middle of nowhere in the Mediterranean. Wait till you hear that one, too. That will also blow your mind.

The early days of Bitcoin, Bitcoin and freedom, private keys, the media and the sc of nowhere in the Mediterranean. Wait till you hear that one, too. That will also blow your mind. The early days of Bitcoin. Bitcoin and freedom. Private keys. The media and the scumbags that they are. Trading critical thinking for safety. Money and wars, but can't feed the poor. The Cantillon effect. New York City and Miami.

Brainwashing propaganda and the KGB. Why Epstein is the fiat system. That is exactly what it sounds like. Bitcoin mining and energy efficiency. Russell Okung. Libertarianism and Bitcoin. Bitcoin and the two-party system. Shit coins.

Bitcoin as a unifier. And thinking of the world in terms of Bitcoin. If you don't know, you're going to know. Somewhere years ago in a room long before she died, the late and not-so-great Christine Lagarde once said, Let them eat cake. And for the record, I don't think Christine Lagarde's dead, but she's old as fuck. So she probably did say that, and that probably did happen, and she's still old.

So anyway, the point is, people like that, and Christine Lagarde's like a French lady who's in charge of some kind of money distribution. I don't know. But she's in charge of money, of like money distribution and i don't know but she's like in charge of money like you know one of the elites these people have continually continue well words are hard continually printed money for years and years and years and taking the value right out of your bank account from under your nose without you knowing and not one of them whether it be in america here at the federal reserve which we'll talk about today, or in the European Union with the ECB or whatever China's bank is, not system, the quote-unquote fiat system, has been something that has been disintegrating for a long time because governments and the people who are unelected within them ruin it. So that will be a big theme today, and it is something

that regardless of whether or not you like Bitcoin or are going to like Bitcoin after this, is a very, very relevant conversation to all of us. I will also add that some of this is deep and then a lot of it is very very very understandable we kept things high level so if there's like the occasional tangent where you're like what the fuck did they just say just ignore it we'll we'll continue on and and it's it's very simple and and it was very wide-ranging, very wide-ranging. So thank you to Mac for coming in. He will be in again. And for now, you're just going to have to have this episode where he talks pretty much all about Bitcoin and not about also his work as well, which is extremely interesting.

We did not get to that today. We will get to that next time he's here. Anyway, if you're not subscribed, please subscribe. We are on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. And if you're on YouTube right now, hit that subscribe button, hit that bell button, and leave a like and comment on the video if you would, please. And also, again, subscribe. To all the people who have left five-star reviews with a comment on Apple Podcasts, thank you. You're crushing it. They're great.

They're huge for new listeners coming in and deciding whether or not to give the show a shot. So I really, really appreciate it. If you haven't had a chance to do that yet and can take a minute to leave a review with a comment, I would really, really appreciate you as well. That said, you know what it is. I'm Julian Dorey, and this is Trendfire. Let's go.

This is one of the great questions in our culture. Where is the nuance? You're giving opinions and calling them facts. You feel me? Everyone understands this, but few seem to do it. If you don't like the status quo, start asking questions what kind of what kind of liquor we got here tonight we got blade and bow never had it

before say this real fast go for it go for it thank you for bringing it of course blade and bow it's pretty good so far 45 i like that what's going on man nothing man good to to be here thanks for having me on i know we've been chatting about this for a bit of course of course you're like my bitcoin rabbi that's what i tell people when i need some information i go straight to you we might uh we might get religious here i have some pretty passionate beliefs about bitcoin and the grateful dead so any chance to talk about both of those i am i'm pretty sure we're gonna have a religious experience. I like that you use that word. Because, you know, in a lot of ways, people talk about Bitcoin and like the Bitcoin community, and they talk about how religious it is. And it's like a slight. And the thing is,

what is fiat? Fiat is pretty religious. I mean, you got to you got to have the belief in that system not failing at any you know potential turn in the road to actually continue it for so long even when things go wrong and the fed prints a lot of money no one questions anything yeah like did you see that uh reddit investors tweet today no because it was like yesterday and it was like all of the commodities are up like 30 to 100 percent lumber's up 100 percent uh oil's up 35 and then they tell you that there's no inflation and i think that's like why i'm so drawn to bitcoin in terms of like honesty and transparency like i'm so sick these central banks like running rough shot over everyone's life and basically like pissing in the wind telling you like it's raining like there's absolutely inflation out there and it's ridiculous that they can

continue to lie to people's faces and i like that bitcoin is kind of like an has become at least in my opinion like an arbiter of truth like a universal measuring stick in the global economy i think that will continue to evolve. And I think that's a super positive development for really humanity as a whole. When did you get into Bitcoin? So I got into Bitcoin through gold. I used to sell gold and silver for quite some time. Wait, that's a way different entry to Bitcoin than I've ever heard. So you were on that side? Yeah, I was on that side um kind of selling gold and silver right after the last bull market and gold and silver so late to the party

kind of like the business was struggling i would say right in terms of like gaining clients when the asset that you're selling is dropping precipitously from like 1800 down to 1100 not the easiest sale so some of the companies I or the company I was working for was looking for a way to diversify and basically like bring in more business. And that was kind of right at the time when Bitcoin was sort of being built out or the infrastructure was being built out. So you could put Bitcoin inside of retirement accounts, which is primarily how we were dealing. What year is this? This is like 2015, 2016.

Oh, wow. So like right before the 2017 bull market in crypto. So I was like, hey, this looks fascinating. I'm open to kind of like diversifying my earning potential. Like let's see what Bitcoin's about. Coming from gold and silver, I had always kind of like derided it or written it off. Like, oh oh that's magic internet currency so you know shame on me for you know having had an opportunity to look at

bitcoin when it was like 200 but i think it's always better late than never on that front i'm trying to think if it was 2015 2016 though you were still looking at it before is that a thousand yeah yeah yeah it was what like 400 500 yeah roughly in there yeah um and then just kind of started going down that that rabbit hole that i think you know most people that are still in bitcoin experience and went through you know the different altcoin phases as you and i have discussed um we're just kind of like circled back to Bitcoin because to me, I think, you know, the way that I think about it,

like we're separating money and state, right? Like you're talking about like fiat as a religion. Like I think this is our best chance to take money out of the hands of government who have proven to be totally inept at basically issuing currency. like i'm a big believer that like if you fix the money you fix the world like i think if you look around right now everyone's so agitated right like don't you feel like we're in like an agitated 100 state um

like people are rightfully angry but i i think they don't know why they're angry. And if they knew what was like the source of that, like consternation and like angst, like to me, it comes back to kind of like the top down structure of central banking. Like people feel like they can't get ahead because the currency is always being manipulated. Like you can't save if the central bank's always printing money. So I kind of view, there's like a lot of left versus right in this country. Like to me,

we should all take a step back. Like we have a lot of things in common with our neighbors. And like one of those things that we have in common is like central banking is the enemy of like the common person. All right. There's a lot to unpack here. And I want to and i want to i want to talk about all this so some we're going to circle back to sure but i think the point you

just made is important even beyond like i like how you said it was top down because money and health are the two things that tie everyone together regardless of who you are what your background is or what you believe it's if you want to call money taboo fine it's a reality it pays for everything you do so when you look at it people in in your mind getting fucked by central banks are then taking their anger and putting it in other places not realizing if i'm restating you correctly that the real problem lies in the fact that as you said they can't get ahead so they can't make enough money to get by. They wonder why the minimum wage hasn't changed. They wonder why the dollar doesn't seem to buy them as much anymore, or maybe just inherently what it did five years ago. And what you're saying is that we have this

unelected group of officials at the Fed who are placed there. I believe they're all appointed by the president. So an elected president, but he appoints these people who then make these decisions when they have the fed meetings every quarter and frankly more than that to say like okay well where there was two dollars right there now there's three yeah exactly and you know i think the the breakthrough for me was like thinking about we like we don't study money no we don't like and if you think about it money is like the original technology all it is is like a storage of your time to exchange for good or service as a later date at a later date right so i never thought about it that way i like that i never heard that yeah until like getting i think it's from safety and from the Bitcoin standard. Like all money is, is you storing your time and effort to exchange for something you need at a later date.

So like once I kind of wrapped my head around that, I was like, these people are fucking stealing from me. And like I find that to be unacceptable, particularly they're not elected, like you said, said right like if there's only a few insiders that can change the rules there's really no rules at all right and i think you're seeing that like unfold in in financial markets right now like it's just stimulus after stimulus like i think they've totally lost control and you know i used to think they would be hostile to bitcoin but now i think maybe they're open to bitcoin Bitcoin as a soft landing because fiat has just become a joke if you're paying attention. So wait, you think that the government, I won't even say the Fed, but the government,

is going to be open to a, let's get the buzzwords out there, let's get them rolling, a decentralized system of currency that operates entirely on the internet without the purview, ability, or even the ability to have control over it from the government itself, whose sole eminence of power derives from the fact that they help determine how money moves to places. Like how the economy – like what policies are going to set how the economy works. How they – I mean the IRS is collecting is collecting money right like that's how they fund it so if they lose control of money that's always the argument that i'm not sure about and i hear it like in the libertarian bitcoin community all the time where they're like no government all bitcoin and i'm like what how how could that happen and then to hear you say right now oh i

think the government might be open to that as a soft landing. It just surprises me. Yeah, like, I'm still kind of working through the thesis in my head. But like, you see like US senators, who is it? Cynthia Loomis, you see like, Francis Suarez, and in Miami, I think people are starting to understand it in terms of it being like an emergent system that they can't stop. So I think there will always be like government, but what I think we're going to see in like the very near future is like a mobile class of capitalized people via Bitcoin,

where instead of this like omnipresent, like suffocating again, like top-down fear of the the government like i think governments are going to have to start competing to attract bitcoiners and their intellectual capital as well as like their actual capital so it's just going to flip that dynamic on its head where government becomes more additive and competitive versus suppressive if that makes sense whoa okay i was not expecting that so the one thing that i'm not really sure how to concept in my head there is attracting bitcoin intellectual capital because at the end

of the day even though it is still a complicated system for people who just aren't used to it right they're used to money screen you hand it out wait it's digital what is this it's on the internet even though that part is complicated when you actually get into it and break down what is bitcoin and you get to okay there's going to be 21 million bitcoins total by year 24 or 2140 like it's done and that means the supply is capped it can't be changed it's on the blockchain which means no one can hack it and people buy and trade it and place value in it by adopting it. Once you get that, it's pretty simple. So how much intellectual capital do you need to operate that?

Because it's not like altcoins or some of them at least where – I guess a lot of them – where it's human beings who are operating it on the other end. Like even Ripple who operates XRP. They can say whatever they want but it's true ripple i can't believe i ever owned that um we're gonna talk about that too sad day for me maybe like let me rephrase intellectual capital i think they'll be looking to attract capital bitcoin capital people that own a lot of bitcoin and are basically building the rails of like a new economy in and around bitcoin like you see them starting to do it like bitcoin beach in el salvador where they have this

like little zone in el zante like of el salvador where it's like a circular bitcoin economy so so nothing else in there yeah they're just like exchanging via lightning network what's this called bitcoin beach bitcoin beach and how long has that been around i think it's been around for like a year or so i need to get down there to serve so now what's the i mean was that the government there like the local government saying we want to try this out no no hell no no no so how did this how did this be allowed to exist i'm not sure like i haven't i haven't fully researched it i've just seen it i've seen like bitcoiners pop in and out there but that type of environment right where i think the narrative is always that like the government's going to be hostile towards bitcoin but i think the cat's out of the bag on that front when you have like tesla and microstrategy and square like

you're gonna fight with their like phalanx of corporate attorneys like they're not gonna go down like without a fight so sailor's out of his mind too he's like he's like let's fucking go i fucking love that guy um so no i just think i i think it'll bring like some sanity right like you know i think we just like this past, what's the best way to phrase this? Like, just looking at the way, no matter what you feel about, like, any specific issue, like, looking at the events that have unfolded over the last year and, like, looking at the federal government, really any government, and being like, oh, these people should have more power, like, to me that is, like, mind-boggling. Agreed. These people have people have like muffed every line like they've literally they haven't done one thing right so like i just see it comes back to that

point that i i think maybe i didn't finish earlier where it's like money is the original technology right it's how we measure all of our time it's it's a layer of communication right there's like language music and money is like a way that that we communicate and exchange value and like if somebody's manipulating that like core base layer of society it creates all these friction points so like if we have a system like bitcoin that's unchangeable it allows people to like plan for the future better and to have like an agreed upon method of exchange that like you have a level of confidence in and it just it's a sturdier base to build i think like a more robust society than you know like 50 central bankers around the world

like constantly constantly manipulating rates to you know help their friends out on Wall Street. I don't know what the psychological term is I'm trying to think of to describe how I want to approach the inflation question with you, but I'll get to it. First of all, you mentioned Safedine earlier with the Bitcoin standard. We'll definitely talk about that because he wrote this book and it really, it gives, I did remember that line, by the way, once you explained it. Can't claim it as original. But yeah, but yeah but it's it's it is a great line and he broke down what i loved about it is he broke down the history of money yeah in the first basically like full half of the book yeah he doesn't even talk about bitcoin yeah it's totally just about like here's how they traded in the 1200s in africa with you know exactly so it starts to give you imagery of how value and trade of value works.

You know, you always heard people talk about the tulip market in the 1600s and people don't think about, oh, when tulips got popular, people could go get tulip seeds and grow more tulips. I mean, that's inflation in and of itself. But when you're talking about all these central banks, and it's like the buzz lines we all talk about. You and I go back and forth all the time online about this. And it's like, okay, then people who aren't in money or aren't looking at it every day and how it works go, all right, what does that even mean? I still bought something on Amazon today. I always have, and I feel like I have pretty good answers to it, but I want to talk through it on a podcast, is if all of the central banks are inflating their currencies, which is a virtual impossibility that they're all going to work in concert. Let's get that straight. But let's say in a utopian society, they all work in concert and they all inflate their currencies at the same time.

How does it not even out over time? because that means everyone's value in their pocket is technically going up but not up at the same time you see what i'm saying yeah i think i see what you're saying i guess what you're exchanging that money for is still finite right which is like why you're seeing the commodities prices currently spike and then i think you also have to ask like who is inflation good for right like this that's like this whole keynesian notion that like it's like the broken what's it called it's like the broken window fallacy it's like i know what you're talking about yeah like oh you know a criminal goes and breaks a window like that's good for the economy you have to put like a new window in like there has to you know what i mean like it doesn't make any sense so wasn't keens like pretty fucked up too i don't

know a hell of a lot about him but yeah he's like a pedophile oh that was him yeah yikes so okay continue sorry i had to get that one in there we'll see if that makes the cut um but you know i don't think inflation is good for like the the average person right like it's good if you're you know issuing currency um if you're the one taking on like all the debt but for like the average end user particularly like when we have tech that is deflationary like i just don't inflation is good for the banks i don't think it's good it's not good for me and you at the supermarket why is it good for the banks that's a good question you probably know better than than me like in fine i don't because what i would say

just as a as an upfront on that is that with banks we were always looking at rates you know that's how you make a spread and so when you have such low rates if they're like maybe if they're low enough that with the clientele or companies you're dealing with they're big enough that they can just do massive shit at scale okay it works well but it you know if you're making a spread of you know 30 basis points on very low rates whereas you could be making a spread of like 60 at a higher rate system math is math yeah that adds up so i gotta think on that one but um yeah i don't know i don't have a good answer for you on that one let me come back to me on that one okay but at going back to some of the gold question though because you

were in that a lot of people during covid have been now trying to say i mean peter schiff's like one of the biggest ones out there sorry i'm gonna hit all of them today who fucking hates bitcoin yeah and people are now like him are trying to say run to gold because gold is is tried and true what i will say is that i personally don't really have a hell of a lot against gold because and i think safadine in the book broke this down extensively but gold you know we are not mining more than i think the maximum amount is 2.5 percent supply in a given year so it does hold value and we have decided as a society across the world that this physical shiny object called gold we like right so i'm not necessarily against it my issue is it can be a volatile market number one not the bitcoin is but number two it's held

its value against fiat over time but it's not convenient you can't just like pick up a brick of gold and walk to the store and say like oh let me chop you off a brick whereas i think there was a famous picture on twitter like i don't know six months ago or something where it showed all these bars of gold and then showed a flash drive yeah and said these two things are equal but you'd never know it sure and the flash drive has the same value on it but in bitcoin i don't see why people like peter can't see that that at least has a lot of potential i think peter's playing the heel at this point in time like have you seen his interactions with his son on twitter a little bit because his son's a huge bitcoiner his son's a huge bitcoiner and they're basically like arguing i think it's like the perfect way for him

to adopt bitcoin but like still get free marketing i mean i tell bitcoiners on twitter don't engage with the guy like his his arguments like lack any intellectual sophistication so it's just like a very cheap engagement play and i don't have anything against gold as well like the bitcoiners have that website like what the fuck happened in 1971 like when we went off the gold standard and you kind of like look at the inflation of money and and where things have like inflated and deflated but i think you made a great point and i think that's why bitcoin gets compared to digital gold because it has that low stock to flow that you're you're mentioning in terms of like how much is produced each year but it's highly transportable and way

more divisible so it's basically gold but improved in every way well the other question that comes up for people that know like a basic amount about it is the transaction speed sure and then no one i don't want to say no one a lot of people don't understand the mining they know it exists they understand that like okay there's some sort of computation that goes on and it has to happen in the market the network has to do it fuck if they know how it actually happens and and i won't pretend to really understand that process either it's like a little weird but essentially you are relying on the way satoshi set up the system the pseudonymous founder of bitcoin is you are relying on computer programmers around the world to be incentivized to want to execute transactions as they happen and so even with mass

adoption at this point there's still a delay yeah in big transactions so if we went not that we could do this because it's not stable yet it's in adoption mode but let's just say it was somewhat of a stable cryptocurrency at this point which i know isn't the pure way to describe bitcoin but you know what i mean sure like let's say that was the case if you went into a store and use your bitcoin credit card it might take three minutes to clear at the register which we all know no one's going to do right so i don't really care about that and my perspective is this i view bitcoin i'm gonna borrow a line from a guy i heard a few months ago it's brilliant i view bitcoin like the sun it's there it provides the light to the system it is the original it is the one that has no human

being that can fuck with it. And it is strictly an animal of the internet. No government can control. Which some people argue with me on. But I really do believe that. I think what it's going to enable. And this is just a hypothesis. Is underneath it.

You are going to have brilliant people iterate some sort of like stable currency that is earmarked to bitcoin so bitcoin becomes a much more utility laden when it comes to money type gold right and also more scarce than gold just by definition and therefore better and within a digital universe what are your thoughts on where bitcoin can scale to? Sure. And do you think that Bitcoin could, in a soon enough fashion, become fast enough on the computational end to be able to actually be the currency too? Or is it just more likely to be the main store of value like the sun, which is not a bad thing? Yeah, not a bad thing, right? Like if it's the main store of value, that puts it at gold's market cap. So that's like $500,000 of Bitcoin. Easy. the sun which is not a bad thing yeah not a bad thing right like if it's the main store of value

that puts it at gold's market cap so that's like 500 000 a bitcoin easy and then you think about all of the offshore money real estate art some of it's good some of the these rich people buy highly debatable classic cars wine um equities, bonds. So, you know, if it eats even a fraction of some of those markets, you're looking at seven-figure Bitcoin. But I think like what you're referencing in terms of the scalability, I would say that it's happening on the top layer of Bitcoin right now as opposed to being like earmarked underneath. I know blockstream has

like a liquid product i know nothing about that but i think what you'll see is like bitcoin being kind of like the base layer and then like layered money on top of bitcoin so like lightning network would be kind of that instant exchange have you played with it like at all like has ever sent any lightning payments not at all so like marty bent who does tftc tales from the crypt so i've seen him on you have him like on your twitter yeah yeah i'd like him um good guy um and so they're starting to play with like lightning basically twitter but with like lightning network so it's instantaneous enough in terms of payment like to see the tweets you need to pay a small fee on lightning network like 90 satoshis which is like 0.001 cent and it happens instantaneously so and by the way satoshis are they're the they're the 0.001 of a bitcoin correct just for people

yeah okay of course so um i think you're already starting to see that instant payments scale just in the same way that if we go back before 1971, your dollar was redeemable for a certain amount of gold, right? So if you built players money, it was gold, dollar, then you had credit cards on top of that, other financial instruments. I think you'll see the same thing. It's already starting to happen. Wasn't it already cheated though because of what like because roosevelt basically just took gold from people and then re-earmarked the price yeah they like 6106102 i think i think that's what it is and

i'm roughly estimating here so don't take these numbers literally but i think it was something like 20 per something of gold He then outlawed owning bullion, so the government forcibly bought it back. Correct. And then immediately repriced it, I don't even know how this works, at like $35. Correct, yeah. So you just said before 71, which is when Nixon officially took us off the gold standard, meaning he took, I'm just trying to give context. Yeah, of course. Took the paper money, the dollar, and separated it from the gold. So as you said, meaning you can't go to the bank and redeem your dollars for straight gold.

It's not earmarked the same way it was the day before. Yeah. Because it can fluctuate in price. Before that gold standard, it couldn't. But I'm saying between like say 1937 or whatever it was when Roosevelt did that in 1971, you already had lost significant value, maybe, I don't know, 40% to 70% on your value of gold had you owned it before then, or it's passed down in your family because the government already just like

totally subjectively decided that, no, it's worth something new now. Yeah, 100%. So, you know, their meddling in the currency has gone on for for quite some time and i think you know what i envision is again like kind of what saif deen talks about is like a renewed renaissance right like if we're like you have so many smart people on this podcast like i talk to so many smart people at work, like, can't imagine

what the potential is. Like when people are kind of freed from the shackles of central banking and like, constant currency devaluation, and like, the blue collar guy that works hard, you know, why does he have to be like a financial expert and like have a super complex portfolio what if he just has like a simple savings vehicle that allows him to like feel comfortable to pour more into his work like pour more into his family like we've there should be a simple saving mechanism for people across the entire world and i think bitcoin as like a store of value has the ability to do that because it's deflationary and like the ultimate inflationary environment and it's it's straightforward like when you say deflationary just just for people we touched on this earlier

yeah at least quickly but it's capped at 21 million bitcoins meaning that once we get to year 2140 or 20 is it 2140 or 2141 ish yeah right so 2140 we'll just call it that once we get to that year there will never be another one created and that cannot be changed correct 100 so it's a hard cap it's baked into the code and to your earlier point about like how it's better than gold that's one thing that i missed um in terms of it being highly divisible highly portable right the rails of the internet you can't stop it the portability sheet yeah and then verifiable right like that is what maybe really separates bitcoin is that anybody can run a note like It's lightweight enough that you can run it on any laptop. You can run it on a Raspberry Pi.

So anybody really anywhere in the entire world with an internet connection can verify the supply of Bitcoin, verify that their Bitcoin is well and truly theirs versus gold. It's anonymous though. What, the notes? In the sense that, because I think people get hung up on this sometimes i know when i was first learning about bitcoin back in 2017 i was still like wait because you know you're used to a banking system where like they can go in and check the record and it'll be like

julian d dory bought this at whatever in bitcoin you have a code and it puts personal responsibility on you so when you do a transaction you have access to what that you know 50 character sure symbol the transaction was so what you're saying is that if i needed to prove that something happened that i had x money and in this case bitcoin i can go back and say here is my here's my key number one and also here's my transaction data and so without my name it then goes in and it's like oh yeah yeah that happened because it's on the blockchain and and it's all there's already a record of it yeah 100 okay i mean it's anonymous to a certain extent right but like there's it's not as anonymous as people would make it seem like it's pretty easy

to do that forensic work what i think is important is that the optionality of it and there's like no coercion to it like anybody that wants to participate can kind of send transactions and i think that's important because in the u.s like you and i have access to banks like we don't have banking problems but you know in venezuela argentina turkey like it's it's kind of like an an Anglo-centric viewpoint to be like, oh, the current banking system works fine, maybe for me and you, but not worldwide. Do you know a lot about the Venezuela one, for example?

At a high level, I see the pictures of donuts where the currency was this high, and now to get a donut, it's this high. It's a pretty visual reminder of what debasing a currency looks like and i think venezuela is a great example in the sense that like they're a pretty energy or resource rich country like i remember yeah maybe like 10 or 15 years ago like they have a ton of oil you should be in like a very strong position in terms of global trade. And they've just tweaked their currency so much that people are literally...

It's like the Weimar Republic in Germany all over again. People are wheelbarrowing in cash to get a cup of coffee. Can you tell people what they did in World War I there? The Weimar Republic. That's wild. And people don't understand because you talked about it earlier money makes everything top down i would make the argument and i think i'm going to win this argument 130 times out of 100 that the entire reason hitler happened and world war ii therefore then happened yeah was because of what the weimar republic did not on the

battlefield in world war one what they did off of it with their money yeah i think that's a huge huge part of it um in terms of where to start with that one because you know if you look at some of the charts of like u.s dollar and like what what the mark looked like back then it's a little it's a little bit sketchy but and like some of like the side effects too like people kind of became like day traders like it evokes like the whole robin hood gamestop thing but the og day traders the og j day traders but um yeah i mean look they basically fully debased their currency and pretty much wrecked their economy and it allowed somebody to come in that, I mean, we all saw what happened from that point in time. the war they were having trouble financing like some of their arms that they were getting i guess from disinterested parties like other countries who were not currently involved in the quote-unquote world war and in order to do that they just printed money and so eventually especially when

they lost the war and they were held at gunpoint pretty much i'm like here's everything you're going to repay then they didn't even have the money to do it and they had to print more of it and so the world the other currencies suddenly became earmarked against theirs at like you know a ridiculous 99 increase or whatever and so as my friend mike spear says they were burning fucking deutschmarks yeah out in the streets for fire and you talk about the image of the dona in v. There was a line I saw. I don't remember where this was, but it got way more useful to use their bolivars or whatever the hell they're called as toilet paper than it did as actual money. Because as toilet paper, it was worth more. The rolls of toilet paper were worth more than the money. So if you can't realize that and

and how quickly that can happen and you also brought up how they were energy rich i mean yeah they were more of a one-dimensional economy in that way but to your point it was oil even today with tesla and all that blown up oil is still huge it'll eventually like start to fade right but it's and you could say it's fading a little bit now but it is still used every day everywhere and just because the prices of oil went a little bit fucking nuts their entire economy took a took it it basically took a swan dive a survivable swan dive but their government didn't accept it and said we don't want any kind of swan dive so you know what we'll just print a lot of money and throw it at the problem

that, that, that won't cause more of a swan dive while no one's buying fucking oil. And then no one was buying oil. And suddenly people, you know, the neighboring countries there, cause it's not a big country or suddenly like, you know, Argentina, which not a great example, but all of these other countries, their, their currencies were worth way more. And so then to buy a banana suddenly became difficult and then it got down to everything yeah i mean it sounds pretty familiar in terms of like what's going on on on a global scope right like to me like the 2008 financial crisis where bitcoin was born and like do you think satoshi is like one guy do you think it's a group of people like what's your opinion on that damn i was gonna ask you that um the i i like the the funny like not important things

around it like studying the language patterns yeah people have done like in-depth research yeah yeah where they're like well that word is from a more british context and that word is from a more german inglo content you know whatever somebody's done like a time zone breakdown i gotta see that one i think it's jameson lopp did like a time zone breakdown in terms of when he would uh post the Bitcoin talk forum. Oh my God. Okay, I got to check that out. It was to disprove fucking Craig Wright. Who was saying what? He's that fucking knucklehead that says he's Satoshi,

the Bitcoin, the BSV guy. If you say you're Satoshi, you're not Satoshi. No shit. You think Pomp's Satoshi? No, I don't think Pomp's Satoshi. He's not Satoshi. No, no chance. He'd be fucking hilarious if he was though

i mean that would be it would be a perfect 2021 troll but i don't i don't think it's like yeah i don't think it's pop but anyway i think it is most likely multiple people i think so i also don't really care i do i know i don't want to give this guy any credit whatsoever. So forgive me for this. I do think that Dan Pena has one point where he's like, if Satoshi got revealed, it's going to fucking zero. I don't know it would go to zero, but I think that could be problematic. So I do think about that once in a while.

I don't know like that's such a heavy piece of information that if suddenly there was a human face to it yeah i worry about that but it it seems to me that the system was set up so well that you would have to have almost i don't know if this is the right word, but almost like multiple cultural viewpoints on it. To be able to come up with something that in some way was going to touch all these different places. And like probably the thing that sold me on that the most was when you saw one of the most discreet places in the world become a big hub of Bitcoin adoption in cyprus back in 2013 because for people that don't know what happened there cyprus basically had they were i guess they were like trying to get back into the eu or something and they had a serious financial problem and the eu wanted to

bail them out that's an oversimplified way of putting it but the eu wanted to bail them out and the eu stipulated okay any bank accounts you have over a hundred thousand euros you're to take every euro above that yeah and the context was well anyone that's rich in cyprus is with the russian mob or something yeah i remember yeah which is how i sold gold yeah sold a grip of gold oh my god so exactly they were coming after things like gold or whatever but when all these and there were were a lot of Russian mafia money people there, sure. But if there's even one person who worked for all their money and one day the government – what happened was they shut down all the banks for like a week. They had a bank holiday and the customers knew that when they came back, if they had even a euro above 100,000, it was no longer going to be there so if even one person had their money stolen from them not just

by their own government but by a consortium of governments they're looking at that going i mean would you ever trust the government again after that no right so they all not all of them a lot of them suddenly said well fucking bitcoin doesn't do that this crazy thing on the internet that just got got the silk road guy arrested it doesn't do that so let's get that yeah you know so i i see something like that and i'm like that's the most like discrete culture there is it's an island in the middle of the mediterranean that's not like a particularly great economy outside of a little bit of tourism and when shit hit the fan, people did very interesting things. And they did the smart thing. And they went to something that their government couldn't fuck with.

Yeah. I mean, it kind of feels to me like shit's hitting the fan in this country at this point in time. Like, I think there's a reason that Bitcoin's at 60K. The news is, like, so bullish. Yeah. And you don't, like, there doesn't feel like the same environment as 2017 no you know what i mean people didn't understand it yeah 2017 they're kind of just like piling in like i'm not it's it's all institutional driven i think

i agree with you actually i think people like i think banking and like the institutions and the man for lack of a better term have like tried to fight it for so long and now they have recognized that I think the cat's out of the bag I just don't think you can stop it at this point which is great the guy worked for who is the man like yeah loves eats sleeps and shits financial markets does right like not like matrix to a Bloomberg turn around hundred percent not a tech guy though by any stretch like you know by any stretch of the word and at banks you're not even allowed to talk about bitcoin which is

hilarious right and i talk with some of my guys and who are still in banks and they're smart as hell and they know what's going on and they're like it's the most counterintuitive thing ever right but i remember talking to him back. I mean, I had left my job. I'd been gone from there. Maybe it was early fall, something like that. And I'm thinking, I'm going to save Bitcoin, and Larry's just going to be like, fuck you.

Shut up. And I just said, Larry, just please listen to me. Just take $10,000. I know that's nothing to you just take ten thousand dollars you got lying in the back room throw it in bitcoin just forget about it you'll thank me and like you'll thank me within a year and he was like honestly i might do that and i and i looked at that i'm like holy shit i was expecting a huge push back right and and then he didn't do that and i started to

think about that and then i started talking to i started hitting up some people who i thought would be instantaneous like no no on bitcoin and i wasn't getting a lot of that and they still didn't understand yeah but i wasn't getting a ton of that and i started to think okay these are all smart people i'm calling up these are not dumb people at all and they're not opposed to it whereas if i had said that in 2017 they would say yeah go buy your fucking tool yeah tulips you know so i see that and then i hear your point about the retail the reason i agree with you is because when we think retail we think regular american the people i was talking about are older and successful right they have a lot more money than all of us the regular americans still looking at things and they still think of it

this way like oh bitcoin's sixty thousand dollars what am i gonna do buy the one satoshi you know so that's a part of the battle but i think that there's enough adoption this is what i want your thoughts on on on at scale that at some point here retailers will continue to drip in and they already are but will continue to drip in at a faster rate and say you know what yeah you know buying 0.001 bitcoins is actually like a good start for me to get my financial freedom yeah 100 i think that's why the stacking sats movement is i love that stacking stats. It's great. I think Matt O'Dell started that with Marty Bent. But I guess I haven't been that excited about the Bitcoin price action.

There's been a couple days where I've been excited. January, you were excited. I was pretty. Early January, you were pretty pumped. I was pretty fired up in January. You were pretty pumped, yeah. But I have a mental price of what it should be at in US dollars. And until it gets to that price, maybe then I'll be excited.

What's that price? I think I'll be excited when we're at gold market cap, which is 500K. And that's $9 trillion roughly in total market. It's like a 10X from here. But I don't know how you got involved in crypto, so maybe we can go over that. But when I got involved in it, I was definitely of the mindset like,

oh, this is like a frothy little scheme they're running here. Like, let me get in, get out. Like, you know, can you know yeah flip it you know like not that i'm good at trading or anything like that but i was like i was still thinking in terms of us dollars like i can get into bitcoin at 3k and sell it at 30 like and price my gains in us dollars and i think the thing that's changed for me over the years is that like, Bitcoin is now my unit of account. The only thing that matters to me, I don't fucking care about the price, really. I care that the number of sats and the number of bitcoins that I have

continues to go up. That's the only thing that matters to me because that's my unit of account and like i bought these stupid fucking sneakers i have on i hadn't like bought any clothes are they yeezys no they're fucking golden goose i'm like embarrassed to even say it live but everyone has to know now not yeezys not yeezys and like you know if I price that purchase in Bitcoin, like that's $500 I could have put in Bitcoin. But like these are going to be like $5,000 shoes in five years. Right. So just like it's totally like once you change your unit of account, like that was the breaking point or like psychedelic moment of it where it's like when you get far enough in bitcoin and like you realize what the future of bitcoin is going to be like the current illusion of of this like fiat system which is fucking jury-raged and like

duct-taped together like it's like i love that word fiat it's a it's like the fucking scarecrow tin man like it's just like this piece of shit that's duct taped together. Once you realize that there's something that's sitting right in front of you and is way better and is a more stable unit of account, it just reframes the way that you see everything, you price everything, the way you price risk, the way you make financial decisions. And it's better. It's for the long term like

the economy now i think is like predicated and that this isn't an original line because we're sourcing it we're sourcing it but look there's some brilliant like is anybody doing twitter better than like the bitcoiners like they're having they're having fun on there they're having a lot of fun like they take the salt and they just like manufacture memes instantly they're nicer they're also like sometimes i get worried about the cultish stuff but again fiat religion bitcoin's got to be a religion i get it they're nicer than the xrp people the xrp people fucking suck not all of them most of them and the bots like they're they're i would like to say that they all suck yeah they're they're terrible i've talked to a couple who

are kind-hearted individuals but with bitcoin like yes they'll shut you know dan held's aggressive guys like that are funny and pierre richard's a great troll but i think he's the best troll he's pretty fucking because he's like you can tell the guy is like very sharp and it was yeah they're not mean yeah you know what i mean like they're they're they're opinionated but they're not mean and it's it's they know a lot yeah they know a lot they've been and i like the fact that a lot of them and you're an og with them too you've been in the game for a long time i think you said like the first time you were you were really looking at and making at least the investment even if you were making it in terms of dollars was like 2013 2014 if i remember correctly like 2015 2016 yeah so either way like far before the bubble and whatever and

even with some mistakes that happened there everyone was making mistakes like you've been at it for a long time and a lot of that community has and then once you start to get to the smart people like the guys who study this every day and study the history of money and you get to the savadines and stuff you start to realize okay this isn't just like some grifter salesman coming in and saying oh let's let's let's pump and dump here maybe it's not like that like that car slaps meme that's a great one what's the car slaps me it's like the used car salesman like slapping the car he's like you can fit so many like blank in this car like like xrp idiots but like pierre i think like pierre charred hopefully you see this um and i'll track you down i'm going to the bitcoin conference in austin you should i'll call show it to him you should uh you should come to that you should come down

when is that i think it's in like end of august i do have to get down to austin one of my former clients is down there he's killing it and now dappolito who's on here last week is now the head of content at truckbucks and his ceo nick nonicos works down there so i'm starting to know nick hayden another guy who's like big on big on like an og on linkedin not one of the not one of the insufferable ones but um he's he's in the sports tech community down there so there's a lot of people going down there so i i i may think about that yeah bit block boom is end of end of august who's running that this guy gary leland he's like i know that name i've seen that he's like a he's like a bitcoin boomer which i love like like the young bitcoin guys like love it when like one of these old guys hop on the Bitcoin bandwagon.

They're more excited than even if somebody's a young kid getting on it. They love the boomers to get it. But Pierre kind of turned me into a Bitcoiner. And he has, I think, the best phrase that summarizes the current economy and like the results of this like top-down banking system that we're talking about i don't know if you saw this tweet it's a little dated but he called it a high velocity trash economy i don't think i saw that and i think that's a great summation of like how the economy currently functions on like a fundamental level it's all about consumerism and consumption and like high velocity like buy

buy buy have to spend inflation's good like keep spending your money okay and i think covid showed like the fragility of like the the top down systems that we're talking about right like putting aside any reaction to it or how it's been handled certainly have thoughts on that but like a couple more glasses yeah we'll get to that yeah sure um but like think like everything is optimized for that like instant gratification and it's optimized for continued velocity versus like saving for a rainy day. Like supply chains around the world are like falling apart. All these businesses falling apart. Hard not to when you're shut down,

but like a global event like this, I just think it exposed like the structural weaknesses of a fiat regime because it just, like everything has fallen apart so quickly when the velocity slowed down. Like, nobody has a rainy day fund. Because people had to rely. I'm going to take a leap of faith here and then tell me if I'm right or wrong on what you're saying.

People had to rely on a government telling them what to do with their life, hypothetically, with this whole unprecedented thing that then dragged out far too long and ignored a lot of facts right exactly yeah remember when that was the thing two weeks so they had this whole unprecedented thing and the government was telling them what to do and because the government also controlled what the monetary system was and then controlled therefore what parts of the economy were allowed to be open and were allowed to be paid under said systems people had either complete in access or access depending on the importance of their job sure air quotes right there according to the government to be able to make money and provide for their family so with bitcoin it doesn't necessarily solve the problem of like government saying like oh there's a curfew tonight yeah that

it doesn't do so that part of the argument i'm like not on board with but if i'm taking the leap of faith and understanding what you're trying to say if you had a system that could that could operate outside of their bounds that could you know pay people for modern day skills and activities whatever they are and therefore allow people to make decisions for themselves because the government is not in a powerful enough position to tell them what to do. Therefore, you'd have a better system that allows more freedom to the individual. Thousand percent.

Okay. Because it's all, to me it comes down, like my obsession with Bitcoin is around freedom. Yeah. And I think one of the core beliefs that i've kind of like clung to or like has become more important to me especially like with bitcoin the internet with like the computing power that everybody has in their hands like good ideas don't require force like good that's a great line like good ideas should be opt-in like you opt in to bitcoin because you think it's better money it's also open source code

if you think you can do it better copy and paste it and go try and like recreate the network effects yourself you can't do it but it's like totally open oh i should be saying you know what i mean so like the network effect is there but it's like a totally open transparent system that everyone can like opt into or opt out of i think if you opt out of it at this point you're eventually gonna have to opt in like peter schiff everybody gets fuck you pete yeah you're gonna get you're gonna get bitcoin at the price that you deserve buddy and that's that's a great like bitcoin twitterism like everyone's gonna buy bitcoin you're gonna get it at the price you deserve and to me if you can still buy, if you can exchange fiat for Bitcoin,

it's cheap. Because there will come a time, I think, when you have to earn it. But to me, it comes down to individual sovereignty, freedom, freedom of choice, freedom of speech. These are things that I feel are severely in jeopardy at this point in time and in the current climate that we live in. And if it weren't for Bitcoin bitcoin i'd be a lot more pessimistic but with bitcoin there i'm i'm actually like super optimistic about what can be built and unleashed in terms of like human production in the future when you say like human production in the future though and what can be built and unleashed you're saying that with the assumption that bitcoin becomes like the central – not to call it centralized but like the central system that we all rely on, right? Yeah.

And decentralized but central system and therefore gives that power to the individual such that whether it be companies or gig economy members, people working on their own for themselves, they have the ability to go after sources of money and sources of the ability to make money that they don't currently have under a fiat system that the government controls and tells them where they can go and where they can't. I think so, yeah. I think it's, for me, it's about like freedom

and putting power like back to the individual. And that comes with some trade-offs, right? Like you were talking about owning and managing a private key. Yeah. That's personal responsibility. And can you actually explain that for people? Because a lot of people ask me all the time, what does this mean? How does this work?

Sure. I know you know about that. Yeah, of course. Got me on the interest rates but i got you here um i think like the best way to think of bitcoin is think of like houses on a street right like think of a row of houses on the street and if you have the private key you can enter said house right you know if the pink house is yours you have the private key, you can enter said house, right? You know, if the pink house is yours, you have the private key to the pink house, you can enter it. If you lose that private key, you can no longer enter that house, the house still exists, but you no

longer have access to it. So if you haven't backed up that private key, and you lose it, that's a donation to the network, like, you're never going to get that Bitcoin back. So that's the trade-off like and they say that like five to ten percent of the supply of bitcoin is gone forever yeah because there's like so many stories of early adopters losing like a hard drive with you know fires even like random shit landfill the one guy is trying to like dig up the entire landfill in england i would too for 400 million dollars there's not a lot i wouldn't do for 400 million dollars i'm sick i shouldn't be laughing but i'm sick for that guy he probably feels like shit but you know if he was

that early he probably has more but i guess like my point is that the trade-off for like self sovereignty and like independence and freedom is individual responsibility and i feel like individual responsibility is at like an all-time low worldwide in terms of the climate and the thinking and i'm hoping that bitcoin can like turn people's gaze inward instead of like the distractions that are constantly peddled at us. Like what if you just turned off the news and like didn't did something for yourself for an hour a day, meditate, go for a walk, lift weights, put your phone down, talk to your spouse, your family, right? Like there's this this whole it's all about like distraction right do you see that or feel that like it's like 100 everyone's like the establishment and the

corporate press is the feds enemy number one for me corporate press is too like do you watch the news never i used to like the last time I watched the news, like, legitimately, was like three years ago. You didn't watch it during COVID, like when it started? At the very beginning, actually very little. Really? Yeah. You know what I would have on? Like Bloomberg.

Mm-hmm. Just see what's, you know, I wanted, and they would be giving me the news, right? Yeah. Because they're going over the financial markets. I really, as far as CNN, MSN msnbc fox no none of it like that shit is toxic oh it's the worst like i turn it on sometimes or if like i happen to come across it you can watch about like five minutes it's not even there is zero journalistic integrity these people are just like a state mouthpiece they fucking hate you they want you to be scared they're profiting off of you being scared so i

guess that's like my point in terms of like looking inward and that like personal sovereignty and responsibility like stop listening to these people like they don't care about you they don't have your best interests at heart like focus on you're you're equating and and i think this is fair by the way but you're equating the media whether it be the right or left wing in the media with sources in the government and what they're messaging us yeah yeah i agree with that a thousand percent i think it's fairly obvious but some people are still like well you know there's some there's some fair journalist integrity out

maybe on substack and then they get attacked exactly they're not called journalists they're called the cancelled like that it's ridiculous it is unbelievable to me it's unbelievable to me that like people are willing to trade

like critical thinking for safety. I'm baffled. That's a great one. It's not the way that I view the world. So I guess that's my point. And that's, I think, what Bitcoin changed my frame of reference and it's like you can be connected to a global network of like-minded individuals and because you're like aligned in terms of your like high level thinking

it allows you to focus more locally like on what you can control right because you know the money isn't controlled the bag is secured like the federal reserve isn't gonna face fuck you and you can't do anything about it it's like hey i've got my money in bitcoin you can't fuck with me yeah now let me turn my attention to like like the last quarantine i was like fucking eating pizza every day and drinking beers and i was like all right this is like if we going to do it for another year, like I got to get in shape, but like money drives everything. So it's like,

if you don't have to worry about it and you have faith in money, you can have faith in money. That's a good line. Yeah. If you have faith in money, you can focus on your health, your family, the community around you.

Like there should be like covid if things were governed at like a more local level like take haddonfield like what if the mayor of haddonfield is making like the covid decisions versus like whatever it was trump knucklehead that he is biden harris like have you seen anyone handle anything correctly during this i have two in mind and that's it that's that's about it i'm sure there's other examples but like i think ron desantis has done a good good agreed agreed i thought he was a little shaky at the beginning, but did a good job. And then I think who you mentioned earlier, Suarez. Yeah.

Like, it's just, they've been more common sense about it. Yeah. Like, let people make decisions, still recognize the danger here, the precautions, let's get to a point where, you know, we have a, whatever, you know, a vaccinated society, whatever the fuck it is. But until then, like, let's just allow people to be informed on what the issue is here and allow them to be able to still make money for themselves sure and i don't think that's a political thing it shouldn't be it it shouldn't and i've often i'll call out my own hypocrisy here for years i i don't want to say i've ripped but i've i've called out the issue in society of one issue voting right and you know for me like i i'm always i always want to be up front about what i'm doing politically so 2012 obama guy 2016 trump

guy 2020 no guy right so take that as you will but for me i always thought of like well no i want to vote on far more than one issue right i i want to i i want to know about foreign policy i want to know about if we're talking about presidents and and things like that i want to know about what's going on with economic policy i want to know about social policy and i want to make an informed decision on who the best option of the two or whatever is when it comes to elections right now if i were to vote in them for me it's like a guy like desantis I could probably guess what his other stances are because he's a Republican, but I've never looked at him. I'd vote for him in a second because he did the one thing, the one thing that I will vote on, which is he had the audacity to say, you know what? I will not exercise complete control over your life.

Yeah. That is such a low bar. And Suarez did the same thing. Yeah. That is such a low bar and suarez did the same thing yeah that is such a low fucking bar yeah and and i don't mean to be a cynic but that's where we're at so it's cynical but i feel like it's also fairly true it's 100 true you're missing the most important third party candidate bitcoin every time i like that you're bringing this up but keep going it's i mean that's honestly

what i think and like i've only voted in one election it was for obama like i was like this guy's gonna be the change and then kids are still getting fucking sniped and you many drone strikes and recognize that there's like corporate lobbyists the military industrial complex and like ivy ivory tower intellectuals like running this country and it doesn't matter who the figurehead is can we take a side swipe real fast and i i want to ask you about that is that right yeah so not to defend and referring to like especially like the drone happiness like in the obama presidency not to defend it at all totally agree not good and said this before but he spoke out against it on the campaign trail he did at least the first time i don't know about the second time but the first time he did right and that's i that's when you voted for him oh wait yeah oh wait okay the one thing about that that i empathize with is that he was

i mean first of all he was coming at a really bad time well let's let's be honest fair enough the bush presidency not great not great not great so comes in at a bad time but he was also very green foreign policy wise he was a you know he was a domestic guy he was a junior senator who had been a community organizer so he's not a guy versed on middle east policy right so he comes in and you have all these agencies who whatever three letters they are you can the alphabet agencies the alphabet agencies and their whole thing is existence and subsistence and control of what they control because what they all have in common is that they were there before any

president or even 40-year senator which is all another fucking conversation got there and they're going to be there after they leave yeah and some of these people stay at these goddamn agencies for 60 years no lie right so their whole thing is let's maintain what we have we don't want to lose any ground of what we have so they walk in and they get a new president like obama forget what political party is doesn't matter they walk in and they say mr president we have x threat y threat z threat k threat a threat whatever threat if this all happens it's your fault and you're you're gonna have 12 9-11s tomorrow and so you got this new junior senator who just walked in to the highest office in land which he ran for he had to know this was coming in a way but suddenly he has all these things where it's

like we're already in a bad spot and now it's like yo if this shit happens it's on you and so what's all of politics it's cya cover your ass yeah and so to him it's like you mean i can throw a couple drones at it throw the fucking drones you know i get it i don't like it yeah but how many i don't care what political party you are i don't care if you believe in the fucking lemon pickle party if you're in that office like the whole point is like you have some control right yeah you're carrying the weight of that groupthink system yeah you don't want to fuck it up and so i have always empathized with the fact that people are like oh he was so drone happy and all this shit what the fuck was he gonna do you know and and like i almost wish in the back end he was more

aggressive with it when isis rose because then suddenly he got real fucking soft about it. And it's like – it's stressful for me, but just tossing that out there for you. How so? trying to kill two people and you bomb a neighborhood of 200 and piss off all those people, righteously so, for the rest of their lives and continue these systems of ideologies that create pissed off people. I get it. Yeah. Right?

Like, people don't, they look at an Osama Bin Laden who's a very complicated character and was a fucking horrible guy. We can all agree on that. But, you know, he grew up rich. Yeah. He got pushed there yeah right and and what people don't recognize about bin laden is he was a brilliant motherfucker he was sadistic but he was brilliant and so you add in some pretty smart people to people who get pissed off to things that they can point to to tell other people while they why

they should be pissed off you are creating a cycle that's never going to to tell other people why they why they should be pissed off you are creating a cycle that's never going to end so i have a big problem with it it's just like how do we incentivize a system where we're not just constantly pointing fingers at somebody if they have the audacity to say hey i'd rather do less than do more here yeah well i think the strategy you've outlined is actually better for national security mitigating blowback like what are we doing in afghanistan good question and what are we doing in syria now great question and to me like it comes back to bitcoin believe it or not i can relate anything and everything i still haven't touched the main question keep going yeah whatever we're just fucking going for it at this point but it comes

back to the money dude if you unfuck the money this is not fundable this is not feasible if you have to stand up and tell people you're still in afghanistan if you're on a bitcoin standard people are gonna be like why are you spending Bitcoin on this? This is scarce. This is valuable. But when you have fucking Jerome Powell just running the printer, it doesn't matter what Raytheon gets or what Lockheed Martin gets.

So you can fund endless wars because the money is worthless and it's created out of thin air. On a sound standard, it makes no sense. It makes no sense what we're doing in Afghanistanghanistan washington post scumbags that they are yeah actually did a great investigative article investigative investigative you just said that in the same sentence well played it's uh you know it's heavy they're they're the worst of the worst but like they did that great article in afghanistan and like poured through those congressional papers basically said it was like a

fucking it's a fraud there's no reason to be there and people are just like and i just don't think that's possible on a sound money standard be it gold bitcoin why because people hear you saying that right now they're like what what does that mean what do you mean sound money standard we're not going to be in the middle east like it's when you i get it right sure on the concept that like the world runs around money sure if people weren't poor and pissed off there'd be less problem i get it beyond just the simplicity of that like is it just in simplicity of that or is there like another layer to it that then says like if this then that i to put it viscerally like

let's say we're on a bitcoin standard and so it's under bush right we're on book bitcoin standard under bush he's spending a bunch of bitcoin bombing afghanistan and iraq for no reason besides to like enrich defense contractors and then like the hospital system in the u.s crumbles people are going to ask questions because the money is finite has been allocated to something else and not the public health so in the current system does it matter less because we live in like willy wonka's candy factory of fiat currency but like if we had a sound money standard there's only a finite amount of currency to place towards the public good or the public need so you would be incentivized to do the right thing by your constituents versus

like pork barrel freewheeling you're saying that if they couldn't just print money on a whim yes and it was completely controlled like the supply of bitcoin yeah they would have to they would they would have a boogeyman to blame in the sense that people who don't understand money because they're busy with their lives and just expect that the people who run the money to do right by them which is a bad bad expectation but it's the expectation right like they look at that and they're saying oh well if we don't fix it by printing money which is cheating but if we don't fix it these people are going to yell at us and not vote us back in whereas if they could just say hey not us blame the system here the system says there's a finite amount so we had two dollars two bitcoins to throw there a bitcoin to throw lost we lost it's what it is retreat then people

would have to say well they couldn't control that yeah we like live in a world without consequences how so i mean at the federal level what does anybody have to account for besides getting re-elected i think one of the best arguments for that ever is that in 2008 not one person went to jail yeah for what happened and it was a small number of people that actually really did that. It's a very small – it wasn't like all these banks were in on it. No, no, no. There's this groupthink ideology that happens where you expect the chain of command to do a certain thing. And when certain people do it wrong, it fucks up everyone.

But there were still a nice number of people here. The Angelo Mozillaillos of the world the who was the french guy at goldman who was like i'm i'm the magician i am the magician that fucking guy like who is the senator carl uh he was great the the minnesota guy carl levin that was it he was like do you mean to tell me like he just pointed all these people and they'd be sitting back and i'm like i don't want to be here i know but none of these people went to jail and so you see things like that where all right these so-called power structures of society have this double standard yeah whereas you could argue that then when you roll in the fact that tarp happened

and all this bailout happened and most of the banks lehman brothers aside bear stearns aside they didn't fail you could argue that like oh these people they're still at the beck and call of the government but i'm trying to phrase this correctly they don't have anyone to actually report to because the government often has people that were related to the banks or in the banks in the first place. So it still is this round circle of life that says, like, yo, we know you fucked up, but you're our boy, so we got you. Yeah. I don't know how I was trying to land that plane, but that was the final point i was trying to get to i think what you're saying is that there's regulatory capture and that like the banking executives are like interchangeable yes with the people in government right like fucking yelling what a joke what did she make like 10

million dollars in speaking fees for the banks and then and now she's treasury secretary she should she shouldn't be allowed to hold paper objects i mean she's just she likes to print them she sucks so it's just like i think i see like the and i think you see it too like the nepotism like that revolving door like i think i posted something the other day it's like i'm not a conspiracy theorist. Like, you're a fucking idiot. Like, if you think Citadel is paying Janet Yellen a million dollars for whatever she has to say for 45 minutes, like...

You're an idiot. I agree. I agree. I can't imagine what she's getting. Like, that doesn't make any sense. Like, it's for the regulatory capture for citadel to do whatever they want and like i just think do you think any bankers wanted to listen to hillary clinton god no no i mean she's a special candidate in the sense that she has the entire establishment

behind her and like still manages to lose because she was like the one candidate that could lose to trump i think bernie had a shot he had a shot too and they knifed him not think what you want about him they knifed him yeah like i don't like him but she was the like wow she just as far as like running in circles in the new york city areas they fucking know everyone i never heard a good word about her yeah from from people that even fully supported her yeah like at least with trump like i knew a lot of people for example that knew trump and voted for hillary all day like no fucking way am i voting for him but they would say like yeah he's fucking hilarious like he's just an idiot right i kind of miss the entertainment the entertainment was great but it was it was too

much but like they at least would say that about him like all right yeah and on on no planet am i ever voting for him but you know like he's not like the worst person in the world even if he tried to be with some of the things he said with her it was always like one of the best ones i ever heard and this was not directly from the source this was one source removed so i need to i need to hedge that but i remember there was a secret service individual assigned to her detail whose exact line was under no circumstances will I be taking a bullet for Secretary Clinton. And the person who told me the story, who was a very reliable source, said, that is literally in your job description. And the individual said, yes, but I was put on this detail as punishment.

That's too funny. Yeah. So, like, she just sucked. she was like the one person that could actually lose to him but you see people like her who just suck and these banks paying i don't know what they paid but they paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to her to have her go well you know when i'm president well you know give her fucking robotic speech and it's like to your point they don't give a shit what she says. They already don't like her because she's going to regulate, you know, every politician is going to regulate them.

They don't like them. They're just trying to say like, yo, when we walk in the back door and say, you know, we need one right here. Just, you know, remember we did this. Yeah. It's like the fucking scene in Goodfellas where they walk through the restaurant. That's literally how like government functions that's the whole thing and like that's why i want to end that that seniorage and like that whole like the whole cantillan effect the cantillan effect cantillan

effect that is like that was another eye opener i don't know that for me so let's let's look it up let's pull it up but he's a french economist and he wrote about like the ethics of money production and basically like his high level thesis biflation is that what you're talking about the can't tell in effect biflation let me get yeah so that's a good one yeah okay so he see and this is just literally straight off wikipedia so we'll get a better source later but richard can't tell him was an irish french economist and author of the science of the nother the commerce i'm gonna fuck that up so we won't go there the cradle of the political economy

although little information exists on his life it is known that he became a successful banker and merchant at an early age at least he lived what he wrote yeah where is the whole go back yeah let me go to investopedia we'll go to the other pedia so he came up with biflation which is what you're trying to bring up right correct? Correct. So what is biflation? It is the simultaneous occurrence of inflation and deflation in an to – well, I should have just read this – general rise or decline in all prices rather than a change in relative prices between different economic goods or asset classes. Biflation is a neologism – I don't know that word – for a type of Cantillon effect, which occurs when expansionary monetary policy is applied to alleviate a recession

translate there you go so the way that i understand it like i think it's a little bit different than investopedia but the way that i understand can tell in effect is like being closest to money production so the federal reserve is printing money out of thin air who is closest to that the big banks the hedge funds yeah so and i would say the banks first before the hedge funds yeah personally but yeah yes you would know more than me there but so basically the closer you are to money production the more that you benefit right because you have a line in to control how that money is immediately allocated. And you can kind of see that in terms of what happened during COVID. Right?

Like, the country is locked down and the fucking markets are soaring. After that, like, huge correction a year ago, it's been like a V-shaped recovery. In dollar terms if you're pricing things in btc everything's crashing yeah but dollar terms for most of the the common man out there it's because they're fucking closer to the money production and that explains like how there is a huge disconnect between like what's happening in financial markets like the S&P hit 4,000 today yeah I think so like I look at that so much less than I used to like I believe I saw that have like have you been in Philly or New York

recently like it doesn't look like the fucking S&P hit 4,000. No. It looks like we're in the Dust Bowl in 1938. Have you been to New York? I have. When was the last time? About a month ago. You and I are similar.

So I was there almost two months ago, so a little bit before you. What did you think? First of all, so a little bit before you. What did you think? First of all, what did you think before you went? Like what were you prepared for, and then what did you think after you left? I went in with low expectations, and I left further disturbed. There's like so many vacancies. I think like the New York model is i think new york will bounce back i think new york has like a certain energy to it resiliency the people the structures like the

history it will be back but like midtown isn't coming back like in terms of the like the commercial real estate like the office rentals like they new york is a microcosm of like the 2008 and the covid crash right like if like if francis suarez was running new york like i would be so fucking bullish yeah like you couldn't contain he's not we have de Blasio oh buddy um so there is an opportunity like to stop like kicking the can down the road like eventually the music stops and we have to like deal with reality and like i think that's what we're talking about earlier like there's no personal responsibility because there's no accountability at like higher levels and this is something that we like touched on like a little earlier and maybe we can get deeper into like i'm not really religious but like the loss of like god in this country i think is interesting because like the state has now become the God.

I think that's like super dangerous that like, we're like worshiping Como, right? Like people were like, Oh, Como was amazing during fucking COVID. First of all, he's hiding death numbers,

sexually harassing people still hasn't resigned. So it's like, we've, we've substituted false idols for like principles and do you think he's calling the shots yeah i think he's fucking mopped up too he's like i won't touch that he's he's connected enough that he basically got accused of things that would get people kicked out of office, and rightfully

so, and he's just like, I'm not leaving. I'm not fucking leaving. I'm not leaving. There's, it's just, we can't keep kicking the can down the road. I think New York is in a really, I'm sure, like, the pension, like, everything must

be stretched, because it's, like, predicated on, like, that tax tax revenue yeah like having those commuters come in like every day right like it's it's a commuter city like I don't think the midtown commercial real estate like office market is coming back anytime soon none of my commercial real estate guys even hint that it's coming back so like what do they do and if they're forward thinking and they're not corrupt and like pseudo run by like the unions and whoever is like really pulling the strings like you take a super aggressive approach in my biased opinion you make it like the Bitcoin capital of the world as it should be which Suarez low-key in Miami is

he's doing he's gonna fucking crush it with that he listened just listen these people are so they don't fucking listen they don't listen because they huff their own farts

I was on a Zoom meeting with somebody who works right next to Suarez, I don't know, like a month ago. And it doesn't matter how I got connected to that. But we were going – like I was just asking him, like, how are you dealing with this? Because the influx to Miami is absurd. And I'm like like there's no way you're ready for this just because it's from everywhere now because this guy's just like how can i help and oh my god a politician didn't say what can what can you do for me just stole the

most basic vc line ever how can i help how can i help just call me up dm me that's how bad government it's such a low bar so i'm just like how are you dealing with all this inbound and the guy's just like yo we're not we're just like my position got invented three weeks ago we're just trying to keep up but you know what what the people want we're gonna give them like and he said a line really simple like that and it's not i don't want to say it's that simple and the things are never that simple but all they're doing down there is they're saying like okay we have an opportunity to attract talent and attract innovation and attract people who are going to be motivated to be in like build a great community of thinkers okay this is what i was talking about let's not tell them every fucking thing they have to do and let's just be

like all right you know it's on you this is what i was talking about in terms of like competing right like francis suarez is competing he's not like knife fighting someone just using common sense he's like you know what there's a lot of smart people doing cool shit they should do it in miami 100 like why not attract smart forward-thinking people like that's the disturbing trend for me that we've become like anti-innovation at like a high level like everything that america has achieved has been based off of like first mover advantage or like implementing systems being the front runner yeah and like now things that are coming out like bitcoin for instance like they're they're not embracing change and i feel like america has always been predicated on that like that revolutionary ideas are are good and like the common

good or progress or innovation is the most important thing just doesn't doesn't feel like the climate's like that anymore it's like any like everything is a threat because i don't know i'm getting like end of the Roman Empire vibes. I have not used those words a ton on this podcast, but that theme has come up and it's, it's, you have to look at trends. Why does, like, I really believe in patterns in history. Like they, they work because they tell the same stories in different contexts every time. And so we know that every world power air quotes that's ever existed it ends sure how does it end there's similar patterns that happen every time people start to turn insular rather than external and and look at problems and how they can better solve them out

there and they start to invent problems within that also doesn't mean that there aren't problems that exist and i think we've highlighted the biggest one in my opinion that drives everything which is the monetary system and the control the government has over it okay but when you look at all the all the problems with innovation like specifically to stay on that i had on brady briquette back on number 33 who you would get along with heavy like he thinks thinks very, very similarly to how you do. But he told me about a conversation I actually hadn't heard. I'm a fan of Naval Ravikant, but I had not heard him talk about this. Forget who – it was like Matt something.

I'll get it afterwards. But he was talking with this other guy about the concept of safety as an inverse to innovation, which is an obvious point. But he was looking at it like, okay, we see all the technology we have now and we go, wow, we must be doing great. We've developed all these things. We've changed our world from this separated physical system to this software in the ether system so quickly over the last, say, 20 years or so. Fine. What about the fact that we have not achieved things in the physical world or even in like to make it really simple like in some ways

hardware or or things that that exist that require risk meaning we went to the moon in 1968 or 1960 was it 68 or 69 did we ever go i think fuck man i knew you were gonna do that i did i think we went yeah we went i knew you were gonna do that but still but still so we went to like 68 or 69 why weren't we on mars in 95 because at some point there's a value don't get me wrong huge value to valuing human life more over time. There's a reason that the caveman walked out of the cave 2,000, 4,000 years ago, whatever, and didn't know if he was going to live today. And like, oh, well, if he didn't, and now it's like, oh my God, someone died. I think that's a good thing.

But we've made it, and you can relate this to COVID big time. We've made it such an emphasis that we don't want to take risks to even question because one death is too many. And like with the COVID example, I've had previous podcasts where we get into the conversation of, say, the self-driving cars. I use that as a parallel. And I say, okay, it's reasonable, like, let's just assume for sake of argument right now, and I believe this is true, self-driving cars have a 10% death rate to driven cars if you released 50 of all cars to be self-driving cars today onto the road and left 50 as humans and tonight a hundred people died in human car crashes but 10 people died or let's say 10 people died in human and one person died in

self-driving car crash that idiot media you talked about wouldn't pay attention to 10 humans. They'd say, the self-driving car killed somebody. Sure. Right? So we have these systems incentivized to value human life so much that we fear change. And as we fear change, we fear the risk that it takes to get to change. And when we fear the risk that it takes to get to change, we don't get those innovations such as getting to a multi-planetary system, getting that sustainability that everyone talks about, changing even a system like money. Because it's like, well, money drives our whole life, so isn't it dangerous if we don't have it?

And so we've created a system where everyone is so worried about living to tomorrow that they don't consider how tomorrow can be better. Yeah. I mean, we can just end on that if you want. No, we got a lot more to talk about. But I mean, I think he's, I think Naval is spot on on that. No, look, there's the risk assessment that I see lately is just like totally skewered. Like even in, in Silicon Valley, like it's all predicated on risk and like doing something innovative.

And I feel like that's being like stifled lately. Like there's everyone's, everyone wants to like, kind of like play it by the book. Like, yeah, it just doesn't, it doesn't add up to me like i don't understand having like all the tools at your disposal and just like not pushing for a systemic change and again all comes back to bitcoin like i like how you i i do like how you relate that back to everything because it drives home

the point as to what the importance is here it's beyond just like oh you know we have an investment it's like no no this is a system that drives behavior yeah it's the it's the best system that's ever been unleashed in human history because it's the first one that's been able to take the inevitable parts of human nature and like some of that is greed like humans like you're talking about the caveman like walking out like that caveman is like rising from the cave every day he's like how much food can i get forever and if he can get an infinite amount he'll take an infinite amount because that's like self-preservation so like bitcoin is the first system instead of like placing the emphasis in the hands of a few has like weaponized maybe that's not the right word

incentivized human greed to protect each other and it's like turned it inward right like everyone that's participating in the bitcoin network understands it as like a universal unit of exchange and is incentivized to make sure that nothing changes in terms of the base layer of money because if it changes for them changes for everyone and like can you can you explain that part again if yeah basically if you change the bitcoin protocol and you're willing but you can't which you can't okay but if if you wanted to you're fucking yourself yeah whereas like if the fed wants to change rates like they don't care no like they're screwing you but like if you want to try and play with the bitcoin protocol go for it but you're not helping yourself so like it's taken that like caveman-esque level of greed

and turned it inward and like made it productive so that it creates a virtuous cycle instead of like a pillaging cycle and it's a currency of enemies like you and i can fucking hate each other but if we agree on bitcoin we'll fight to protect that because that's like the value exchange mechanism even if we disagree on every single other thing, it can't be manipulated. It can tie together cultures in that way. Yes. That is how it becomes like this golden age of trade. But we have two worlds right now.

How so? Well, you brought up the New York example. Yeah. And what you thought, which your takeaway was my exact takeaway too and i'll add a layer of detail to it so one of the things i never get to do these days because i'm trying to build this fucking thing and i don't have time for shit but i never i never get to write anymore and that's my love like i'm a writer and that's that's what i do first so the most i do is you know a few nice sentences on Twitter that no one reads because, you know, whatever.

I'm there. You're there. You read. We're going to help each other. Like, exactly. So I, when I went to New York, as I said, my takeaways were the same. But adding that layer of detail, I had prepared myself for what i was going to see and i knew it wasn't going to be good but it wasn't so much the surroundings that were horrible there were

boards in places there was some graffiti there were some rats you know that previously weren't there standard fair right there there was there was there was some woodwork and there was some dirtiness like but the physical makeup of a city that has like a fucking 12 occupancy rate in corporate buildings right now was not that bad for me like when you went in the buildings like i went i went into grand central that was a religious experience in a bad way i was like there's two people in there on saturday like don't get me wrong not good but everything's intact yeah for the most part the thing that was way worse than even i could have imagined was the people yeah they're dead yeah so you talk about this world where everyone can you know take their individual freedom and

and go out and and do things for themselves and whatever and i understand you know i was up there when covid hit and that's that's where i was living and it was bad it was it was a cyclone and we saw the worst cases and there were so many that the viral load was big and more people were dying than in other places so it was ground zero and i get that but we have created an environment where 17 year olds are walking around with two face masks and like 12 masks and looking down and can't even look at you in the eyes when they pass on a 40 degree sunny day on a street corner and that fear and that resignation to that that has been beat into them and i'm not and i'm not sitting here like oh you know code it's not a big deal it's not the point the point is they have been led to believe that this is that thing that is going to kill all of us it's going to kill

fucking 15 of the population which is systematically not true. That they have been hypnotized, in a way, to just carry on life that isn't life. And I say I was a writer because I, for the first time since starting this podcast, sat down to write when I got home. And I never released it because I had this, like, I wanted to do it right. I had a 10-section essay to write out I got home and I never released it but because I had this like I wanted to do it right I had a 10 section essay to write out you know kind of like a 10,000 word kind of thing

and you know I couldn't get to all the goddamn sections but it was therapeutic for me to write the whole intro up and what I did was I streamlined the moment I arrived in on the train, and this is the end of January on a cold night, through the moment I left as far as just things I saw, like images and whatever. And when I went and read that back to myself, and I never put it out there, but it was frightening for me because I realized, holy shit, this is not just a bell you can unring so then i i pull an image like that like the greatest city in the world a place i love yeah with all these people who have across all cultures and across all occupations or wealth classes i i pointed out an example of everyone i saw all these people who have accepted this reality and then i say all right in the cultural hub of the world there are people who have been put in a position to accept that kind of reality, even if it was ground zero.

And we're going to believe that in a place with all that information and all that brilliance, we can also then simultaneously have a world where people say, we're not going to accept shit and we're going to say, fuck the system and beat it with something as high level as money it does make you question a few things and i'm not saying i'm not discounting that something like miami hasn't happened it has it's amazing and what suarez is doing is like god's work in my opinion and i hope it continues he's going to be president one day he might be if he wants to do it i mean he's on a line to do it and and he's likable he's like i guess he's a republican but he's like very centristy like kind of like

stays above the fray like i like that guy a lot me too and you know i i want to believe that's going to win out but you talked earlier about the narratives of the state yeah that hold people's attention and they do and they drive this propaganda out there they drive this this messaging i mean i could go into examples on that all day i worry about how much that can actually lose versus what the potential of gain for the individual is i think if you can wake up the individual and maybe it happens person by person i don't know what that looks like i think if you want an example of a great long-running scam without getting too political the food pyramid like if you want to listen to people that told you to eat fucking pasta

six times a day and get diabetes have fun fucking knuckle futs like are you kidding me like i've never gone deep on that well how's that because that's i do know it's changed a lot over time and it's like this i've heard it's just go to just go to a grocery store and like if you if you didn't go through the middle aisles where everything is like pre-packaged, preservatives, refined carbs, sugar. Is that what the caveman that you referenced is eating? No. It's a bunch of fucking sludge. So they'll put sludge in your body. They'll put sludge in your mind. What people need to realize, and I think we're at at like close to a tipping point to get back to what you're saying like how do you enact that change the powers that be have like started to push

too hard on all this and like people are waking up to the fact that like they don't have your best interests in mind they're just trying to get re-elected they're trying to get money in their pocket like mitch mcconnell's been a senator for like what 40 fucking years 40 years how is he worth 15 million dollars on a 200 000 a year salary the funniest was biden was like the 89th richest out of 100 senators or something and he lived and i'm not even faulted to be you know he lives in like a million dollar house people don't ask these questions he's doing it wrong clearly he's clearly he's not doing right not enough deals not enough deals man what they're doing to him is is sinister the guy is clearly yeah i think

he's he's losing it but back to the point that like i think that we're at that point of like overreach because i think like most people just want to be free i think most people like are inherently good there are bad apples they're extremists like if you think about the average person, don't they want to just go about their life? Like, don't they just want to like, have their job where they find some meaning, like have their family, spend some time, have some friends, couple hobbies? Like, people are simple, but they do want to be left alone and we're at the point where like the average person everything is being infringed upon and i think people are going to start pushing

back i hope i hope they do what about the people and i'm just using it as an example as a devil's advocate what about the people in new york and i got a lot of listen i got a lot of friends there who have stayed there the entire time i might add yeah who i would i would not call because i talk to these people all the time they're not brainwashed at all no no and i wouldn't even say they're like scared they're they're a little bit resigned yeah and i almost don't blame them because that's that's the environment they wake up in every day like you know repetition yeah it doesn't matter how smart you are yeah you're gonna you're gonna come to accept things so that's an extreme example but who's to say that that can't happen

in a lot of places it has it's happened at scale yeah It's been implemented. And there's that old clip of this guy from the KGB, like 1984. It's on YouTube. You can look it up. Yeah, I'll pull it up. But basically, like if you are fed misinformation for like a period of 30 to 45 days continually and like relentlessly you'll believe it like it won't even if you're presented like all evidence to the contrary that is like the period that it takes to like totally change your opinion or like wash your mind of like any rationality so

i don't know i guess that's a long-winded answer to your question of like how does it change like yuri beznamov i think so yeah all right i want to pull this up because i have heard of what you're talking about before but i've never watched it all right so we'll pull it up right now mr bezmanoff was born in 1939 in a suburb of Moscow. He was the son of a high-ranking Soviet army officer. He was educated in the elite schools inside the Soviet Union and became an expert in Indian culture and Indian languages. He had an outstanding career with Novosti. I miss the newsman voices like this.

I miss having a real newsman. The press arm or the press agency of the Soviet Union, it turns out that this is also a front for the KGB. There you go. The escape to the West in 1970 after becoming totally disgusted with the Soviet system and he did this at great risk to his life. He certainly is one of the world's outstanding experts on the subject of Soviet propaganda and disinformation and active measures.

Well, you spoke several times before about ideological subversion. No, we're just watching and then I'm afraid some Americans don't understand. When the Soviets use the phrase ideological subversion, what do they mean by it? Ideological subversion is a slow process which we call either ideological subversion or active measures, Идеологическая субверсия – это медленный процесс, который мы называем идеологической субверсией или активными мероприятиями, активными мероприятиями в языке КГБ, или психологическим войском. To such an extent that despite of the abundance of information No one is able to come to sensible conclusions in the interests of defending Themselves their families their community and their country. Yeah, it's a great brainwashing Process which goes very slow and it's divided in four basic stages. The first one being demoralization.

It takes from 15 to 20 years to demoralize a nation. Why that many years? Because this is the minimum number of years which requires to educate one generation of students in the country of your enemy, exposed to the ideology of the enemy. In other words, Marxism-Leninism ideology is being pumped into the soft heads of at least three generations of American students without being challenged or counterbalanced by the basic values of Americanism, American patriotism. The demoralization process in the United States is basically completed already. For the last

25 years. This is 1984? What a year. Actually, it's over-fulfilled because demoralization now reaches such areas where previously, not even Comrade Andropov and all his experts would even dream of such a tremendous success. Now we're putting it in 1964.

What happened in the late 60s, early 70s? Thanks to lack of moral standards. You know. As I mentioned before. What happened on campuses? Exposure to true information does not matter anymore. He said it was done. A person who was demoralized is unable to assess true information.

The facts tell nothing to him. Even if I shower him with information with authentic proof with documents with pictures even if i take him by force to the soviet union and show him concentration camp he will refuse to believe it until he he is going to receive a kick in the in his fat bottom when a military boot crashes his balls then he will understand but not before that that's the tragic of the situation of demoralization all right let's cut it there so i i i get the concept and i had nick roll in here i guess like a month ago who was we we talked about a whole bunch of we started talking about top shot

because he was like in that like day one but one. But he's like a brilliant psychological mind, and he got to this thing. I can't remember the name of it. I should look it up, though. But I remember the concept. And what he was talking about was with the flat earth theorists. So he had 15 minutes of fame because he went to war. Oh, I think I saw that. Yeah, he went to war with Kyrie Irving in the national media

because he was getting his master's at the time, so he was teaching a middle school class. Gotcha. And all the kids were fans of Kyrie in 2017, and they were all coming in saying the earth was flat. And he was like, oh my God, no, it's not. So all these kids were so bought into Kyrie that they would not listen to evidence. Gotcha

So the way he beat them psychologically and made them face their their lack of understanding Was he created an incentivized project that allowed them to get like a prize meaning they didn't have a test or something like that Gotcha that had them review sources Like like primary sources quote-unquote. Yeah and determine what was good and what wasn't. And there was a correct answer. So, like, if you reviewed a – like, high level speaking. If you reviewed a source that was like an encyclopedia for, like, words. Yeah.

Good source. He then put on there flatearth.org. So they had to come to grips with the fact that they either were going to be so dug into their belief system that they were going to purposely lose this project because they knew that inherently it wasn't a good source. Or they were going to admit it wasn't a good source and therefore admit Kyrie Irving was full of dog shit. That's genius. These guys understood that. And they understood no one's going to do that. It's crazy. It's just,

there's been no pushback to it. Like there's just full buy-in and like it's slash. It's just blown my mind. Like in terms of like, what were you doing a year ago more than a year ago now ish i was i went and got like a like a full cardiology stress test on friday march 13th and it was all clean by the way i was good heart was good but i was going through this whole thing and i was going into this year yeah exactly i was talking to the doctor and saying you know what do you think of this code shit and he was like well

i'm changing my opinion on it and i was was like, turned to him like, well, what do you mean? Because I'm thinking about going to the office right after this. And he's like, you know, it's not great. And he starts going through some data. And he did explain. He's like, look, this is not killing. His exact words were like, this is not going to kill 10% of the population. But he's like, you know, this is worse.

And here's why it is. And here's why I didn't believe it at first. And now I'm starting to think otherwise. And so then I remember I went home and I quarantined after that. And the reason I bring it up is because when you ask that question, whether there's an intonation on it or not, I think all of us, regardless of what we thought about the world at the time, we saw something that was so new and we were like, okay. Yeah. You know, let's just chill the question that you've brought up that i think is such the central question the whole thing is at what point did we start to accept and not consider yeah i think you pull

that mic in a little bit yeah yeah um it's like quashed critical thinking in a way i find that to be dangerous i find like some of the censorship i think i'm willing to go out on a limb here on dr seuss i think that's a hill that I'm willing to discuss. I'll die on that hill with you. Publicly, as fucking Cardi B performs WAP with Megan Thee Stallion and does some exceptionally interesting things, the world is just upside upside down and in certain ways and i feel like it's like a litmus test and we've continually failed as a society to just like call bullshit like like if you said something dumb or like one of my friends said something dumb i feel like you're fucking full of shit like why can't we why can't we do that on a macro

level like there's no intellectual honesty and for me the tipping point we weren't going to get through this podcast without discussing this was fucking epstein dude we gotta go there it's like i was kind of getting into bitcoin then so it's like starting to get like a little orange pill gets arrested sitting there with my dad i was actually visiting from california and i was like they're gonna kill this guy yeah i was like i give it two weeks on the button and it's like i told you i can tie everything back to bitcoin epstein is in that circle close to the money printer close to all of these people there's flight logs of people like on that plane and the most telling thing to me is all right you're on the plane not one person was

like not one celebrity bill gates whoever's been on that plane not one person was like came out and was like oh hey i had no idea what was going on. Like, that's abhorrent. I'm so sorry to ever be associated with. The fucking silence is deafening. The silence is deafening. That is the thing that has bothered me the entire time about this, because you have all these very public high profile powerful figures across culture i mean it's it's it's every type of person and like i understand that there are some people

he just got photographed with because he was a nut job i know eric weinstein's talked about that a bunch like he talked with him once tells you everything about the conversation what a nut job he thought he was but there are a lot of people who flew on those planes with him multiple times multiple times whether you know bill clinton's the famous one 27 fucking times you know yeah jeffrey jeffrey takes us down to an island i don't know what goes on down there i just know jeff's a good time i didn't know he was into touching little girls like he doesn't even come out and say that that should be a very simple even though we would none of us would believe him like it should be a very simple thing to come out

and say like this guy's a child pedophile rapist psycho but they don't do that kevin spacey not that we should expect anything from him says nothing chris tucker says nothing you brought up with me earlier like larry summers who i think was a guy who was just photographed with him still no they connections so he might have gone down there i don't know they made the guy from who's the guy that just stepped down running the investment firm the victoria's secret guy who's basically oh oh my god lex uh lex yeah yeah i was thinking about lex friedman because all the bitcoiners are shitting on him but it's the other lex they shouldn't be shitting on Lex. Lex is just curious.

Welcome to the terror dome, dude. He's just curious, man. He's curious. Don't hate on him. He had on pop on his podcast. Don't hate on him. I get it. I love Lex.

But no, the silence really is deafening and this this leads me again to believe that the corporate media are a bunch of fucking scumbag status pieces of shit who was the abc chick uh i don't recall the one who was like one she got caught on the hot mic i mean she got caught by project veritas but it was real it was real video project veritas is their right wing yeah so you can't listen to anything they say they had real video of that like they she had them now and like you know it's something that that matters to me like people's rights like that like that fucking matters to me and the fact that there's like zero journalistic integrity around it. That stuff really fucking pisses me off. That's when I rage buy a lot of Bitcoin.

Because again... Epstein was a Bitcoin buy signal. He is absolutely... If I see somebody related to fucking Jeffrey Epstein, I buy Bitcoin. Because Jeffrey Epstein is the ultimate fiat leech. He functioned as a blackmail agent in the fiat system, as a go-between between powerful agencies and powerful people,

and was able to pin them in corners doing disgusting things and that's what fiat does at like a at a high level what if he would have used bitcoin to do it he could he could he could so what makes fiat and i'm and i'm i'm on your side i'm not a fan of that system at all but in that context what makes fiat the boogeyman there uh i feel like i'm thinking about like larry summers and like the political connections and again like the closeness to the money spigot that we're talking about like that that insiders club there's nothing except that there's nothing from preventing him to use bitcoin to do it what i think prevents him and what's still not priced in in bitcoin or bitcoiners themselves like they're

the white blood cells like i don't see bitcoiners maybe they are but like from what i can grasp i don't see people that believe in Bitcoin engaging in that type of disgraceful behavior. Whereas I see... Okay, hold on. Because before you go on, I want to push on that and let's attack these things. Because I want to get to the libertarianism aspect of Bitcoin. And I have not tried to drive the conversation there because there's been so much other good shit going on. I've just tried to drive the conversation there because there's been so much other good shit going on. I've just ignored it. But when you start to make generalizations of because someone thinks this, then they would never do this.

I get worried about that because all it takes is one. Sure. You know, Epstein and Ghislaine were two people. Yeah. Now, were they supported by a fuck ton of people? Yes. Yes. Yes.

Yes. Were they even the only masterminds behind it i don't even think so probably not i think they're the front people they're probably right so we can agree there are multiple people or organizations or more maybe if you want to put on the full tinfoil hat maybe there's a lot of global organizations either way they're still good and bad actors in this world so i do worry about and i and again i'm coming from your side in the sense that I'm a huge believer in Bitcoin. I've learned a lot about Bitcoin through you as well and some of the guys you connected me to. But I think it gets a little dangerous when we start to say it is this complete like, oh, no, no, no.

It's only a holy grail. There is not any bad to come into it. Do I think that someone who buys into Bitcoin for all the personal freedom and responsibility reasons that it's supposed to represent, do I think that they're more likely to be a pure individual in that way and not somebody who's a fucking whatever the hell you call Epstein, like a lunatic? Sure. I agree with that. Do i think that that means that it is going to be the complete rule and there will be no exceptions no because i i believe in the fallacy of human nature yeah i think that's fair i'm probably overzealous on that front that's okay um but i would like to think my only and i think that pushback is totally fair my pushback would be that over time bitcoin

is incentivized to eradicate and snuff out bad actors whereas fiat is incentivized to insulate and promote and perpetuate bad can you explain i think I know exactly what you mean, but can you explain how it just for context? Yeah, because I think corrupt systems are corrupt. So if you get, it's like a tick, you get underneath the skin, right? Like the skin is like the, the barrier. And like, once you get into like the more central nervous system, the blood system, your bones, like everything that's like kind of underneath the skin like once you're in you're in right and you can wreak havoc and that's like what fiat looks like like once you get closer like a tick getting under your skin isn't important

until you get like lyme's disease right like you can once you get underneath there like you can unleash these things that are destructive you can start you get underneath there like you can unleash these things that are destructive you can start like manipulating power structures through the central nervous system through the circulatory system through the muscular system and once you're in you're incentivized to like push people in the wrong direction with bitcoin once you onboard something comes back to that human greed like you're incentivized to do the right thing because it helps you you're only helping yourself in a bitcoin system because you're basically pumping your own bags like hey join

bitcoin because it's great i already have more bitcoin than you like it keeps going up and like that's just the difference like some people make money there's still a finite amount though right that's like the fiat system where like you're closer to the money production money production yeah whereas bitcoin it's like hey we're all in this together i got in a little bit earlier than you but we can still all help each other you're incentivized for me to do well even if i'm getting in after you did so therefore frankly not as well in all likelihood with buying power being equal yeah okay but i mean it can't can't be more fair than like the way that bitcoin was distributed like there was a time where there were Bitcoin faucets on the internet.

You mean faucets? There were literally websites like a Bitcoin faucet. What does that mean? I have no idea what that is. After Bitcoin was launched to distribute the coin, there were devs set up a faucet website. If you fucking went to the website and clicked on it, you could get 10 Bitcoins just for clicking on the website so who made money on the back end of that nobody

how does that exist then that's the great like the early days of it or the wild west is crazy because it's like the bootstrapping of the network like that's why laszlo always comes up with like the pizzas yeah people are like oh this fucking guy he spent like 500 million on pizza because it wasn't worth anything then supposedly it wasn't yeah like he created the first real world value exchange like and for context that was what how many what was the number how many bitcoins for two pizzas he traded in 2010 10 000 10 000 oh my god those are some expensive papa john's papa john i hope he got like extra toppings with that three for context three years later crete was buying bitcoin in in droves. But what people don't understand about that story is that, number one,

Laszlo is like an OG miner. He probably has a fuck ton of Bitcoin. Number two, he monetized it. That is a huge event in its inception. Number two, he monetized it. That is a huge event in its inception. Set the precedent. That it was actually exchangeable for something as trivial as a pizza. Number three, he did it because Satoshi scolded him.

Because at that point, the network didn't require the requisite computing power that we currently think about, which is, like, having specialized miners tapped into, like, Chinese hydroelectricity. Like, you could mine Bitcoin from that laptop. And so Laszlo was the first person to be like, oh, like, I can custom build a computer for this and, like, fuck this network up like i'm gonna win every uh computation which we didn't tap into earlier but that's all mining is right it's like

network effects of it too it got talent attracted to trying to find those solutions so like all he was doing was like all solving for bitcoin mining is it's like you're solving a math problem and like the more computer power that you have the quicker you can process that so like people were like mining on laptops like people have laptops like that making like 50 bitcoin per block and he was the first one to like specialized equipment at it. And Satoshi was like, hey, no, it's too fucking early. You're going to monopolize supply because you're taking too much because of the computing power. So that's why, that's his sacrifice.

Like, oh, I did something wrong. Let me monetize Bitcoin, kind of make up for like kind of jumping the gun like lazlo still paid in bitcoin like nobody should worry about lazlo what's the line he had to die for all of us to live he's kind of like yeah yeah yeah he's kind of it's kind of like the bitcoin jesus i agree with you. And I think that, I mean, like how many, because you and I, I definitely know a lot less than you do, but we're not experts on the mining aspect of it, as we said earlier. But do you know some guys who have been involved with that? Not like personally. Okay.

No. I'll never forget because, you know, I'm an experiential guy with shit like that. I know what I know. I don't know what I don't know. I'm not a fucking engineer. I don't understand computer engineering. I know how to produce a podcast. This is the extent.

This is the extent. It's great. You're doing great. Hey, we're working, baby. But I will never forget walking into my buddy Mitch and Mike's townhouse in Jersey City back in beginning of January 2018. Interesting time to be doing that. But they're both brilliant engineers, like fucking building hydroponic gardens down the stairs next to like 12 computers and all this shit and when i walked in there the first time there was this this computer chip on a motherboard sitting down there and and you know it's a dark darker basement but you could almost see like heat coming off of it yeah and it wasn't big you know it was almost the size of those two

remotes together maybe another remote right there yeah and i remember seeing that and and i walked down there i'm like mike what what the fuck is going on here and he's like oh we're mining bite coin it wasn't even bitcoin it was bite coin i'm like what the fuck is that he goes oh it's fairy dust dude it's it's not worth anything yeah i'm like why are you doing he's like well technically right now it's worth like a few cents so we just leave this computer running and it costs he like goes through it like it costs x amount per hour to run this and that's why it's heating like that and we get y amount based on the fact that it's still worth like a few pennies so you know we just do it and so then i started

asking him about like the bitcoin mining side and that's when i learned about the power of and this is what i want to pivot to a little bit the incentive the incentivization structure of adoption yeah because and we touched on this earlier but you need that network of people coders quote-unquote around the world who are going to make money i.e make bitcoin in this way beyond what their expenses are to be able to confirm the transactions sure and so when satoshi invented this technically there were zero nothing there was nothing yeah and what i think gets lost in the process here is that we're only you know bitcoin started trading january 3rd 2019 or 2009 excuse me and it was invented on october 31st 2008 so we are 12 years into this process and we went from zero to millions of people mining this trillions of dollars in value

trillions of dollars in value no founder that you can point to unless you're talking to Dampania. No marketing team. It's the most valuable startup of all time. It's not a startup. It's fucking fire, the wheel, the printing press, the internet, and Bitcoin. That's the five fundamental, like, evolution, next level, like, exponential increase in human productivity. Those are the five things. But in terms of, like, energy consumption and mining, I think you bring up a really great point. And it's, like, what all the fucking blue check marks are screeching about on Twitter.

And I just want to let them know that the screeching will continue until morale and adoption approves. Like, Bitcoin should have better critics at this point. Like, the FUD this cycle is the same as 2017. It just proves that the establishment are a bunch of like weak-minded narrow-minded they're not thinking deeply about this topic because like what bitcoin mining which is energy intensive like i want to go on record like yeah it takes energy it's still not efficient but it's it's better than it was five years ago. Well, when you say it's not efficient, you have to think of it versus the U.S. military. Pretty energy intensive, because that's what the dollar is backed by.

Violence. A bunch of violence. Vampire energy, right? Everything that's plugged in all the time. Until we start there and if you're like a green energy person and you don't include nuclear your opinions are relevant but as i've digressed um like bitcoin is really pushing forward i think like some of the greenest developments in energy like in terms of like methane gas that's flared, natural gas that's flared, these are emissions that are going to go into the environment.

And Bitcoiners have figured out a way to attach a generator to it and attach Bitcoin mining units to it. And instead of it getting flared into the atmosphere, it's functioning as an economic battery to capture that energy that has no buyer of last resort and then convert it to something else like they're doing such cool shit on that front and because the incentives are aligned because if you're mining okay okay because i'm not gonna lie You lost me on that part because I'm not a fucking miner. But you know more than you think. Incentives are a lying part, though. We can all get behind that if I have some context. Okay.

Explain. All right. I'll try and keep it tight. Okay. We've got all night, dude. Yeah. We've still got a whole thing of fucking doers right here. God forbid we get to that. Might be a Dory, dude. Yeah. We still got a whole thing of fucking doers right here. God forbid we get to that.

Might be a Dory sleepover. Yeah. There's a bedroom back there. Don't worry. So in terms of miners being aligned, I think it's like a less talked about and like super interesting portion of Bitcoin because supply, as we've talked about throughout this conversation is crunched

right there's 21 million it's probably really 17 million yeah what what is the accepted number like eight percent is gone i think it's like four million bitcoins gone so let's play a lot let's pick it let's call it there's actually 18 million Bitcoin in existence. So you can either – Minus four. Well, there's 21 million. Because there's 21 total. There's a little more than 18 and a half right now.

So minus roughly four. Yeah. So there's 14 and a half, 15, call it, round number in existence. Good double check on that. Okay, yeah. Because most of the Bitcoin do exist. Like the issuance schedule is such that so you can buy over the counter or i think the people that are really smart and savvy are like figuring out how to mine it right because that's that's simply purchasing through other means You can either buy it over the counter with cash,

or you can buy miners and find an energy source to make acquiring Bitcoin via mining more economically feasible than just paying cash up front for it. So what that does, and what people miss in the whole Bitcoin boiling the oceans nonsense narrative, is that the margin there is on energy so like the cheaper energy you can find the more stranded sources the more outliers that you can find and somehow monetize into the bitcoin network that increases your margin and you get more bitcoin and that is everyone's goal. Wait, wait, wait, wait, hold on.

Explain that one more time. I want to make sure I got that. You can either buy Bitcoin for cash or you can mine Bitcoin. Which means you are using your computational power that you pay for to be able to, as a coder, to mine for it. Not as a coder. It's, yes. Just, yeah, let's keep it high level and assume you have to be able to as a coder to mine for it not as a coder it's yes just yeah let's keep it high level and assume you have to be i know you technically don't have to be but let's just

say you are yeah so you mine for it you are paying up front to be able to try to incentivize winning more than you give up like profit margin correct okay And so you can either, let's put it into two camps. You have cash. You pay for Bitcoin. You just buy it. You exchange it. If you think you're smart, you have an angle. You pay for mining equipment and you find a source to mine Bitcoin.

So I guess like the capital calculation there is does it cost less for me to buy it up front versus buying bitcoin mining equipment and finding stranded energy to then convert to bitcoin my point being that bitcoin drives green innovation because it is a search for stranded resources that would otherwise be unutilized and pointed at the Bitcoin network to transfer stranded energy into a battery that is globally transferable. Does that make sense? It makes sense to me. I hope everyone got that.

I just had a mindfuck moment while you were explaining because the second the first time i was like is that what he's saying and then the second time like oh shit that's what he's saying it is an economic battery it's this is not a great parallel but it's a borderline parallel when we moved from a world where you had to take all these activities and do them in all different places and then went to this world where it was all on your iphone yeah we created a again i'm using i hate to use this word because it's counterintuitive but we created this centralized space where we did it right to take a stretch there what you're saying with bitcoin is that we have all these other systems that quote-unquote waste a lot of things or cause a lot

of problems and cause a lot of energy problems caused quote-unquote climate problems cause us issues such that we worry about are we gonna have to go multi-planetary which science appears to say we're gonna have to here elon's working on that to be able to sustain humanity over the next thousands of years with a system like this when you incentivize putting everyone i'm trying to restate what you're saying when you incentivize trying to put everyone into one space where they all agree like okay this is the money that we use. And here's the system through which we have to create it or mine for it or get it, which requires energy. We are then going to use building on the innovation there to drag on to everything else,

such that everything else becomes more streamlined. And because of the system we're adopting, I'm really getting wild here. But because of the system we're adopting in Bitcoin, this new monetary system, there is going to be less need to use energy here, here, and here, and here, such that it will all be centralized and then over time innovated in a way that less and less energy is used. Yes, I think so. Yeah, it got complicated, but I think i know what you're saying i think what i'm saying is that there is under or unutilized energy like flared gas is like the most what's flared gas so it's like oil fields that are like you know you have like an oil rig and then there's like methane spewing into the atmosphere. Right. Isn't that like all of them? Yeah. That's like every oil rig. Yeah. So what the Bitcoiners have figured out is instead of like spewing that into the atmosphere, which does not help climate change, let's build a funnel, right? We'll capture that flared methane put it through a pipe put it

through like a conduction engine and then we'll attach bitcoin miners to it and fucking make bitcoin out of it so it's something that was going to be wasteful harmful becomes power becomes powerful becomes like an a battery transfer mechanism like for elon's big picture like his last frontier is like battery transfer power and like bitcoin is oh it's like close to being that like it's what about dogecoin i just love that he's a fucking troll i love the richest guy in the world he doesn't take himself too seriously he doesn't give a fuck dude it's great it's great it's fantastic but shout out to chas on joe on dogecoin i hope it goes to zero for you yeah go ahead you deserve it no like there's there's innovation at every turn and like again it comes back to incentives right like when we are all aligned

when we all start with an equal playing field and like equal is you could have been in bitcoin in 20 2011 like you could have yeah it was on the internet like shout out sloan brakeville it wasn't a fucking secret you could have right like that's as fair as it's gonna get like satoshi creating the network mining it walking away there's a million coins that'll never move like that like immaculate conception is as as fair as it's ever gonna get quick question this is some semantics yeah i don't know the answer to this i might not either all right well if you don't no problem the white paper was released on october 31st 2008 yes bitcoin started trading on january 3rd 2009 second or third one of them either way

did he own it ahead of the trading or was it officially constant this might be just a bullshit stupid semantics question but was it actually consummated on the third it's officially consummated on the third and i think it's absolutely not a bullshit question it's 100 important so he didn't have any worth no he've he pre on the 31st he pre-signaled it versus like you and i've talked about like all coins and different things like i disagree with like the pre-mine these people are trying to like pre-mine and dump into u.s dollars and in my opinion on a broad scale i think there's some innovation to be had but but I'm here to fucking end the Federal Reserve. And to do that, you have to have...

It's got to be the cleanest bank job in the world. And Satoshi did that. He created... I think he's going to win a Nobel Peace Prize. If we come back to a rational world... I don't disagree with that in due time i think he's like i don't know we talked about religion i guess he's say it say no say it he's like a modern day like jesus christ dude he's like like he Bitcoin

to me I think about it all the time like aside from work and the wife and like well thank god she's in there hey like it's to me like the way that I

think about it now it's like a modern abolitionist like like, movement. Because if you think of the way, if we go back to, like, that top-down structure, like, we're a bunch of tax cattle. Like, people don't fuck, like, the... Like, they don't fucking care about, like, anything beyond their revenue. revenue no self-interest and it's

like they just they just don't care like it just doesn't it doesn't add up and like i want people like you follow me on instagram like i fucking shit post like just low low key i'm gonna do a shameless plug right now i fucking hate instagram stories let me put that out there i do them because i have to i don't even watch my own instagram stories i i miss snap stories because no one tried too fucking hard yeah nobody cared oh my god snap stories are still great now no one posts them so i miss those things shout out to the the og stories instagram stories are still great now. No one posts them. So I miss those things. Shout out to the the OG stories Instagram stories are generally annoying. I generally click through them. Your stories are fucking hilarious Even like if it's something like I don't totally agree with you just spit flames of meme culture. That is on

Paralleled Unparalleled so as far as if you want a great instagram follow for the stories i don't even know if you fucking post for the stories super chaski yeah yeah yeah i'll put the link in the description but continue go ahead no it's just like meant to like make you like don't you feel like there's like a lack of thinking that's like like what I feel. That's like what I feel lately. I look around and I feel like I'm an idiocracy. It's just like, what is everyone thinking? They're not.

Yeah, that's a problem. They're not thinking for themselves. They're not. People don't question anything. And like, don't get me wrong. I think people that over question fucking everything are annoying. Don't get me wrong. I think people that over question fucking everything are annoying. Don't get me wrong. I do.

Could be me. But I would rather have that than people who are just trained to the cattle. I think you used that term earlier. But there was, I know you follow Russell Okung on Twitter. He's the goat, man. What a guy. Oh my God. Can you get him on

here that would be like your magnum opus i would i i would never pay to have someone on here but if hypothetically i were gonna pay to have someone on here i'd throw that guy a fucking satoshi here stack some sats for him to sit across from me russell okun who is like legit all pro linemen won a super bowl in the nfl still in the nfl still a very good player richest player in the nfl richest player in the nfl because he's half paid in bitcoin russell okun never tweets about football it's great he tweets all about like he tweets a lot about bitcoin because he's been into it for he's like an og he's been into it for a long time he tweets all about critical thinking and he posted a video that was lifted from tiktok i'm pretty sure maybe this

is like a month ago something like that i don't know if you saw this but it was hilarious but also scary because some dude just lined up outside some store in some city like a wawa or something and took out a lint roller he took out he took out a fucking lint roller and i'm going to put the video in the corner right now so people can if they're watching right now they can see this while i'm talking through it takes out a lint roller and stops people at the door and starts telling them to put their arms out and one them with a lint roller and all these people who are from every generation and walk of life without asking a question stop hold out their arms allow the lint roller to go around them

and then proceed to go in the store as he waves them in and you're watching this right now mind blown and what russell akung said is we have created a society where no one even stops to fucking ask a question of like is this even halfway legitimate and like again and and no disrespect to russell on this the questions he's asking on something some of them are brilliant some questions he asks should be like a bare minimum but he is special in modern day society because people aren't asking them which should tell you everything you need to know about where we stand. It's, some days I look up and I'm just like, what's the best way to put this?

Some people that I think are incredibly intelligent that don't question the narrative and it just it's maybe goes back to like that indoctrination video that we watch but i find that scary i find that to be troubling on like a deep level in the sense that, you know, the people that have like censored or burned the books over the course of history, the people that have like grouped people over history, they're never the good guys. There's not one instance of them being the good guys.

And I feel like that's kind of where we're at. And it's like, it, it troubles me deeply and glad that there's like Bitcoin and other like open source software as an outlet but you know i feel like we're at like a real inflection point like there's it's a fucking wild time i want to take this to finally actually go into that libertarianism point sure because i agree with you no matter what regard i don't care what you think i don't care where you are on the political spectrum i don't care whether you believe or disbelieve in bitcoin we are at a critical

inflection point and if we wanted to do a 30 minute back and forth right now explaining the concept of the fourth turning we could i'm not going to do that but go read that book great book great book history repeats in these cycles to really dumb it down and i look the reason i'm bringing up the libertarianism right now is because i look at bitcoin and that religious concept we talk about emanates from to overgeneralize a type of individual who buys into bitcoin it's not everyone like this but someone who would match your standard a little bit is someone who believes in personal freedoms which you know i think everyone should believe in that in a way right and someone who believes in personal responsibility which starts to get

into some arguments but you know in in fairness it's well, it's up to you, right? And then it all comes back to this wide-ranging concept of libertarianism. Now, libertarianism has been, you know, the Gary Johnson, the, what the hell was her name, who was just on the... Oh my god, I already forgot, which is bad. Andrea. I don't even think that was it. It wasn't even andrea she wasn't very good she wasn't great but anyway it's been this wide-ranging thing to where you can have like some person who's like not that she was in it but almost like a jill stein type to like a ran paul who's literally like a Republican in Senate, right? Like more of an establishment type.

So it's like, well, to say nothing of his dad. Like how do you have that? How do you define it? Bitcoin to me has been the first community to put a little bit more of a centralized belief system on it because the Bitcoin community community and you've hit on this theme and i think you realize you have throughout everything you've said the bitcoin community wants to take the the thing at the top of the pyramid money

and translate it to the individual and detract from institutions running life be it government yeah big banks be it big corporations, lobbyists, whatever. All the same. Yes, all the same, exactly. All these groupthink systems and take it down to the individual takes power that they've created that religion out of it and they've also created a political movement because we have seen, and I'm absolutely included in this, and there's a lot of people who have different political beliefs than me included in this we've seen a lot of people in society become completely disinterested in the political options we have and it doesn't mean that they're a

libertarian it doesn't mean that they're a liberal a conservative it just means they're like fuck these people right and so bitcoin has taken up the mantle in the rhetoric of it online, which Twitter is the best spot for it, of, fuck you, we're taking back the system. Now, you're a guy who I think has been an incredible spokesman for that mindset. And it doesn't mean I agree with every single thing you say, but in concept, I agree with most of the things you say. My question is, do you think we can live in a world where fairly, and Bitcoin is just the best example of this, where fairly the individual is responsible for absolutely everything with no backstop and the reason i ask that is not because it's not possible for every person that exists i wonder whether it's

possible for every person at the same time that exists because there are different environments that cause different people that cause different problems that cause different potential fucking you know to overgeneralize sob story scenarios sure so my question back to you would be like do you want that as fucking biden's health care plan or do you want like a sound money standard where everyone's trading on bitcoin and we're hyper localized and people can, can you define that? Can you like paint how that looks? Yeah. So like it currently looks like whatever fucking dipshit press conference we're

currently doing for like a $3 trillion stimulus bill, which you'll never see any of it. Yeah. Yeah. You'll, stimulus bill which you'll never see any of it yeah yeah you'll uh you'll get maybe fifteen hundred dollars while the house that you've been eyeing up goes up fifty thousand um inflation yeah it doesn't exist um no i think there should be a backstop. I guess I'm just of the mindset that the free market can always do it. So let's say, where are we at? Mullica Hill? Mm-hmm.

There's a Mullica Hill Association. And we're all making X amount of Bitcoin. We put 10% into a fund. And if there's problems know somebody needs medical care like let the free market decide what insurance premium should be or like what the treasury should look like versus having like state mandated taxes based off of income brackets which is like i guess what i'm saying let me rephrase that there is a one-size-fits-all mentality from the federal government like how can they know what 500 million people want across the country and that's and what i like about that point is that's

not a part that is one thing that's not a party problem that has nothing to do with anything yeah that's that's that is a government ideology problem like how can how can half how can everyone how can everyone in a 500 million person country fall into two categories everyone's that simplistic everyone's that like programmed or trained like we should be focusing on like a local level so do i think there should be a backstop absolutely like i'm not like a not like a wilderness i don't feel like i'm like will smith and like i am legend like go fucking murk these zombies and like yo yo no lie new york felt a little bit like it was like 25 of the way to i am legend when i was there it was saying like i don't think it's there but like

i guess my point is that people should like choice i guess choice choice and freedom like you should be able to choose how much you want to contribute to like an insurance fund at a local level that you would be able to utilize quickly if you needed it versus like how would that work i and and talk to me like an idiot because what and i always say this as like an out front. When it comes to healthcare, I feel like an idiot. I understand my healthcare. Yeah. And I understand why I think the two political parties have made bad arguments on healthcare. Yeah.

I don't understand in any way what a potential solution could be. And I've never heard a potential solution that seems to be within a modicum of range of actually being able to happen. Yeah, I don't pretend to have it. But I think the fact that you found it so divisive, again, that's the strategy. If we're talking about overarching things here, it's like divide and conquer. It's like confuse people, make them agitated, make them choose sides.

I don't know what the answer is on health care but maybe it's more localized like maybe there's a health care fund for mulga hill that's it like maybe people and people contribute what they want to it or a set amount a small set amount it's invested properly i don't have the answer but paying like a high premium and then having the insurance company facebook you when you actually need something is definitely not the answer i agree with the back end of that and i agree with the front end of like yeah no one wants to pay a high premium and i think it's unfair like like someone with a pre-existing condition they didn't they can't even get it they didn't ask for that no it's not their fault and why should like i do agree and i've heard this from both parties on like the

you know and it's the typical political line but i agree with the line itself we don't want people dying in the streets right exactly but how do you solve for it so that you create a system where people are okay picking up some burden for other people who didn't cause that burden it's like it's one thing if you're in a group project in school and some guy slacks off and goes and drinks every night that's different somebody's has a pre-existing condition that's not their fault yeah and they got and they also got to live with that pain and everything and like as a human being if i can help them out with that in a small way and incentivize the system to want to help them out, I want to do that. But I don't want to do that to where it creates a very small amount of actors to have to help out everyone else such that they're paying a ridiculous amount and everyone else is just free riding.

I think that's where we're at right now, right? Yeah, it seems that way. So, I don't know. just free riding i think that's where we're at right now right i yeah it seems that way so i don't know i think that the answer is like some type of reconstruction locally which is what i i think is the answer for a lot of things and like you've seen it with florida you've seen it with texas like the overlords are kind of losing their grit. Like, they're a little... There's people, like, flaring up. What do you mean? But you say Florida and Texas.

They're examples of overlords not being too overlordy. I'm talking about, like, the federal overlords. Oh. Like, the federal government. Like, Texas and Florida have kind of been like, eh, go kick rocks yeah so maybe it's like a solution in that vein where like there's just more localized thinking i think there's so many tools in terms of like connectivity sass applications, like we should be like massively,

like COVID should have been a massive AB test on like human reaction. Like it should have been boiled down to like municipalities or cities, towns, like underneath the county level. And like we should have let everyone handle it the way they thought was best, have let everyone handle it the way they

thought was best which is still how it's being handled in terms of like vaccines like you can get a vaccine somewhere but you can't get it you know what i mean yeah so that's how it's handled anyway we should have like crowdsourced it ab tested it we could have learned so much we could we could have pressure tested the system strengthened it but instead we waited for fucking donnie to like come out like every wednesday and tell us it was the greatest listen listen we have it totally under control i just want to go on record dr falchi back here great guy great guy take a tide pod we'll be good. It's like, dude. I miss the entertainment. The entertainment was great.

It was A+. But I will say that during COVID, it was so cringy. It was bad. Like, he was the only guy, by the way that he acted, who could make Fauci not look like a clown yeah he managed to do that yeah for a time there and then once he got silent like you know then fauci revealed himself as you know i'm not a fauci guy sorry people but like you know it's like there was with trump like forget politically the unforced errors with him yeah are stunning and my and not you know what fuck it we'll go on this tangent the thing that really bothers me about him and i don't know what happens when you go to washington dc but the one thing you can't take from him when he went into office is that he was an outsider in that way yeah sure he was a billionaire and all

this shit he was never accepted in those circles yeah talk to anyone who was in them they're like yeah that fucking guy right which when you're looking at it from like a candidate perspective that's one thing that forget his policies again forget that that's one thing that you could be like okay all right he's not like a he's not completely in that court because he's not even accepted there couldn't be there if he wanted to but he comes in with this whole drain the swamp thing and to me he walked out with his dick between his legs yeah as the representation of the swamp like the ultimate example is the lack of the pardons that didn't happen at the end which is simply pardons right it's individuals it's not whatever but like didn't pardon snowden didn't pardon assange didn't commute ross didn't do any of these things and then also claim to want to do all these

things that take away like the swamp of dc like lobbying and stuff and and he repeals his own executive orders that said like oh if you worked in x offices in government you can't be a lobbyist for x number of years repeals him on the way out because now his people were in there and it's like to me if you're not like i don't care where you stand politically when he leaves office and you see that that outsider just went in for four years and you see how he walked out if you are not pissed off at the political system regardless of party if you're not pissed off at the federal system to say nothing of the fact that you should have been pissed off at every failure of government in the covid response yeah then you're not fucking watching yeah you're not paying attention no that's a great point

yeah i don't have anything to add there it's like it's an unbelievable system that i'd like to end as quickly as possible do you think that bitcoin and the the quote-unquote and i'm labeling i shouldn't be labeling this but for the sake of argument the libertarian concepts of bitcoin which on the level regardless of whether i agree with libertarian concepts and i don't agree with all of them in practice but let's just say i agree with them when it comes to the general purpose of bitcoin do you think that can be adopted in a system where we have liberals and conservatives yeah like i guess the libertarian angle um i actually think the libertarians are a bunch of fucking larping pussies at this point um what's what's a larping pussy live action role-playing

fucking puss tanks um because like they don't they don't back Bitcoin. They're attached to gold. They want to go through the political process. We can vote. That doesn't work. It doesn't work. And if you really understand Bitcoin, and you're playing chess with this these like establishment knuckleheads the only way to win the game is to fucking flip the board over stand up

and be like i'm doing it a different way like you can't win within the current parameters that they set you it is an unwinnable game when people hear all these other coins though i want to bring this right into it because you took you've you've hit on all coins like six times tonight and it's an important topic because and you and i have talked about that off air but like we were both at one point years ago like oh maybe xrp is the thing or whatever right cross-border payments what makes what makes them a part of that system that you want to flip over the board on versus bitcoin and like i know and you and i know and i think a lot of people listening to this conversation should at least know up front that bitcoin is truly in the ether right there's no human around it that's the

obvious point yeah but then okay not to pick on xr people let's say xrp just has a company ripple has a company ripple behind it right yeah what makes them having any type of say over the flow of supply on ripple a problem for the system of the people being able to take control just to find that for people you just did they have they have a say over the supply the flow of it that's the problem there should be no central oversight it should be like a free and pure mechanism that you can either engage with or not. If anybody is identifiable in terms of policy or direction at like the protocol level, that is a security hole. Because you're again fucking with the state's senior age on money production

they do not take that lightly lightly like if xrp somehow is the standard like some of these fucking crackheads say online half of them are saudi bots by the way but okay go ahead what are they doing they're just like punching away yeah i mean that's the free market i guess um that's a great answer that's a great answer um true to form by the way salute i would like to think that i'm cohesive in certain areas but like there's just if if you can identify somebody in cryptocurrency that can push policy it's a problem so what what if tomorrow we find out that satoshi is pomp we're so it's done just dust it we're going to like the FEMA gulags. Like we're done. Don't fuck with me,

pop, pop, shut it down. No, like that, that is, I can't harp on that enough because that's like Satoshi's gift to the world. It really is like a sacrifice. It's like,

it's some modern day fucking religious shit to like but he does own a good amount or they whoever they are like out there i i think it's hal finney probably isn't he dead yeah he got like als and like died like he was like the first he he received like the first transaction from Satoshi. Um, but yeah, like that immaculate conception I think is, you can't recreate that in terms of him figuring out like the Byzantine generals problem, like the double spend, like who comes first building off of like Nick Szabo. Can you explain the double spend real fast

that's important yeah so basically like what the bitcoin hashing algorithm is doing is solving a problem basically like a mathematical problem and it's making sure that all the transactions are legitimate and then basically like stamping them into a time chain after they're verified. So think about like an insect in amber, right? In what? Like Jurassic Park shit. I do not follow like even in the slightest. Not even in the slightest.

All right. So like an insect in amber, you know what I mean? No. What is amber amber like i know fucking amber alert like fucking sally down the streets missing no like like in jurassic park remember they get the dna out of the fucking dude i remember the music from jurassic park and chris bosh running around fucking killing people i'm sorry go ahead it gets it gets condensed and it gets like pushed down and it gets like it gets crystallized like in rock like every transaction gets built upon so you can't once a

to bring it back once it is recorded it cannot be fraudulently rescinded yeah right okay so it gets it gets buried in amber it's like the jesus christ what is amber i'm gonna pull it up jamie pull that up i've never heard of this unless it was a color or a missing person amber defined all right google give me something yeah see fossilized resin no shit fucking learn i always thought amber was bluish too it's like fucking piss yellow no it looks piss yellow it looks like gold looks like bitcoin so okay yo shout, shout out. Shout out to the Holy Grail right there.

But anyway, so go back to the fossilized, like, fucking Jeff Goldblum amber shit. You can't change it. Like, it's just baked in. And so double spend says that right now in the legacy financial system, I could technically say that a transaction happened and then launder money on the back end and hypothetically find a way to outsmart the system to get away with it. That's an extreme example. Whereas in Bitcoin, I can't do that yeah because you have so much computing power like honed in on the network and like it's designed to snuff out fraud so it's like designed to snuff out

double spend like it's about keeping everything pure and straightforward and egalitarian i'm like that's like the beautiful thing about it that's no no when did you like we all saw the well not all of us but a lot of us saw the bubble in the beginning of 2018 and i want to go through this because i i can give my own background on that at some point but i'm more concerned with yours because you've said that at least back then you at least were looking at some alt coins as well and thinking that they could be they could be worth something whether it's xrp that's the most common example but other ones too what made that change minus the oh fuck we just lost a ton of money in this market and what made you suddenly be like okay this system of the jurassic park and the amber is much better than these other things

minus and also because you've in fairness to you you've already defined minus the fact that there are human beings yeah attached to these other ones which is important but besides that what else i think i came like for money, like everyone else. It's like a speculative bubble. Pull that in a little bit. Yeah, I think I came for the speculative bubble. I made high six figures with an altcoin rush. I was like i'm a god was it tron no come on it wasn't tron it was it was absolutely tron no it was tron it was icx

oh god i lost like fucking four g's onon. That was a lot for me back then. I made a lot of money. Fuck you. Never really cashed it out. Justin's son. Right there, buddy. Anyway. No, I love you, Justin.

Fucking knucklehead. I love Justin because he at least pushes the space. I'll give him credit for that. But go ahead. So you made money on Justin. No, I never cashed it out. Oh. So I saw it go up like in terms of bitcoin value

and then you know that that like 2018 dip i think i woke up and like took a piss one day and it went from like six figures to like to like five and i was like holy shit and i woke up and just that's like come to jesus moment like like what are you invested in like what do you think like what is your thought process like that was like a fundamental like redirection of like like what are you doing like what are you doing um and that's where like i realized i was like directionally correct but not specified enough and that was like the transition to bitcoin and when approximately was that like end of 2018 official because you already own bitcoin i know that but yeah going for the question is is here going full bitcoin and full like that's the belief system and until i get a great argument as to even something else that could possibly exist below it

that is the only thing i'm going to believe in yeah so this is like 2018 okay where like i started to figure out like shelling points and like the lindy effect and like how networks work and i was like okay i'm here for the right reasons i might have fucked up a little bit in terms of like execution but there's still a simple standard that I can take part in. And I just want full Bitcoin. So you moved over all your assets from anything else you were in? Yeah, I mean, just for the record here, about 99% in Bitcoin. I have very little cash. Everything gets converted to Bitcoin.

I like that because you're backing up the talk. I like that a lot. Yeah, like I'm not fucking around, dude. Yeah. Like every day, I'm trying to end the current system every day. I'm trying to do it actively. One of my favorite tweets of all time was because you live in philly it was every day i i walk past independence hall and i bow and then i and then

i walk past the mint and i give a i give a middle finger i do that's true. That's a religious experience. Dude, like, my vision is for Philadelphia to, like, be the birthplace of, like, a new... There's no reason that, like, Philadelphia can't be the most Bitcoin-friendly city in the world. Like, Francis Suarez is doing it in Miami. Like, let's bring him back to, like, the birthplace of America. Like, walking around Philadelphia, like, seeing those buildings, like, thinking about those discussions that happened there, like, I find it to be powerful, and I think it should be inspiring to people that, like, there's a different way to do things.

And, like, those buildings were built, and those buildings are like, have significance because those fucking guys didn't want to pay a 3% like tax. Like we have strayed from fucking God's light. Like they didn't want to pay a 3% tax. And now we sit here and take a bunch of bullshit. But like the things that they like built and the structures and the documents like i find it like really inspiring to like walk by and like i i enjoy walking by it every day like it

makes me think about where we can go like i like i don't want to come off as like pessimistic here like i know have some critiques of like the current system but like really feel like optimistic about what is possible via bitcoin and technology and like what people are building like i think we can build a new american revolution based off of clean energy optimization bitcoin standard and just like talking to your fucking neighbor those are that that's my that was actually in fairness i made funny for the first tweet that i loved but i wasn't making fun of it i loved it i just thought it was funny like the whole bowing and shit but you had another tweet in there you just reminded me of it of like you have a lot you said

something i'm paraphrasing of like you have a lot more in common with your neighbor than you think and so your political divides that separate you are not the real thing that separates it was something like that and it was so fucking spot on because i think it does come back to what you introduced early in this conversation which is this top-down system that's fucking people is causing us to look in all the wrong places and the thing that we have in common is the thing that's fucking us yeah it's like that red ant black ant thing probably seen it on instagram it's like the what it's like if you like put like a group of like red ants and black ants and like a cup shake them up they'll fight each other yeah

like if you never did they'd be fine like it's if you just went out and like talk to your neighbors that's what i'm talking about when i say like think local like just go knock on your neighbor's door just be like what's up buy bitcoin buy bitcoin for sure cash app um no but like they want the powers that be want everyone to feel different but like we're all human at like a certain level like we all have this like shared experience and i i feel like like the last year has been trying to separate that like everyone's experience is different and i don't i don't think that's the case i think it's it varies like i think it's think everyone has a different experience, but I think there are fundamental themes that we can all relate on,

and those are being torn apart, be it family structure, belief. We're all closer to each other than is being currently portrayed. Does that make any sense? A hundred percent. And I want to tie it back to something you said earlier, where you talked about like how there's this, and I'm restating what you said. You didn't say this exactly this way,

but correct me if I'm wrong is how you meant it. There's like this disincentivization of belief in God and shit like that. And they believe in the state. What you're not saying i don't think and correct me if i'm wrong is that you have to you gotta fucking believe in god what you are saying is that people have a right to believe what they want to believe and find comfort in the things they want to find comfort in and the fact that someone else finds comfort in something different than you does not make you does not make them wrong or

you right or vice versa yeah so to tie it back i think what you're saying is that if you can unite under one commonality of people having control over one thing that's important in their life which is money which in this case you believe to be bitcoin i agree with you there you can find more common day-to-day things that make your differences not matter a hell of a lot yeah i i think that's dead on did you see that there's a guy on on twitter who's like very i don't even want to state an opinion on him because like he just makes me think and i don't i probably disagree with a lot of shit he says but like i have to read it every time and then i probably agree with a lot of shit he says but there's this this dude hotep jesus i yeah i've seen him yeah and he did have one of his tweets that i just thought he nailed it was it was a couple months ago, where he said the way to – and I'm paraphrasing – but the way to keep a class divide system in place is to divide the lower classes by certain political or identity beliefs and make them think they're enemies to distract them from fighting against the common

enemy which is the people who hold the power yeah and i think that and he didn't intend it this way but on top of many other meta themes that that touches that he's right about in my opinion he's 100 i think he he is making an argument for bitcoin more than anything else i i really did take that away i mean i guess if you haven't taken away the theme from this, everything's an argument for Bitcoin. But no, I think, look, he's kind of like a lightning rod on Twitter. But it's good that he is. Yeah.

Like there's... Makes you think. Like even I'm risk averse even i'm saying whatever 99 bitcoin risk averse baby i love it i mean shouts out to mia thanks for i was gonna say does your wife approve of this she does yeah we can definitely go over that. Another time. I think, no, she was like, I mean, she knows I'm fucking crazy. She doesn't see who I am. Yeah, that's good.

She likes that. Crazy is good. We need crazy in this world. I think we do. I think we need, I think thoughtful is crazy now. That's a quote. I'm going is crazy now. That's a quote. I'm going to use that. I will trademark you.

I'll trademark you. Thoughtful is crazy. I don't need it. We should be constantly pushing the boundaries of everything. I feel like that came to... That's my problem with like covid more than been anything like substantive in terms of people movement or anything like i dislike the like the intellectual stagnation that's now

accepted like i just i just don't like that it's a good way of putting it it's like yeah i just don't i don't know what do you think like i just i just i talk about that a lot on this show and i've and what i'm thankful for is i've guessed from across the political spectrum who regardless of where they are whether they're like left or right or somewhere fucked up in between yeah like you and me like they all have thought that and it gives me some hope because we look we see the loudest voices on on the twitters of the world the instagrams we see the hard left and the hard right, and they don't want any of that. But there are a lot of people out there who could even be firmly on one side or the other who do want some of that.

And I always use these examples, and I will forever because they're great. But Terrence Jones and Mike Spear, who come from left and right ideologies respectively, they do want that. They like that conversation, and they prove it by coming in here and having a long-form conversation but a lot of people don't do that and so you know that like the two of them i think in a room together as leaders would be great they'd fucking piss each other off all day but there's an extent to which they could be like all right yeah i see it i see it like that okay all right that's a fair argument let's let me halfway on this. And we don't have much of that. And so when I see systems like, Hey, let's question the money. It does make me think like maybe that's a commonality we can find. Maybe that's something where people can say, you know what?

I do get behind that belief. And that, that is where I run into issue with certain Bitcoiners being like pro censorship and shit. I think stuff like that is counterintuitive i think they missed the the concept of who's being pro-censorship do i need to say it yeah definitely who runs the platform we're fucking big and i'm you know what who jack yeah with jack and i've said i think he's a hostage i agree i've said this on the record i don't think jack is calling the shots i think he's a woke idol and a hostage because i actually

disagree with the first part but go ahead yeah let me rephrase that um putting the block clock behind his right shoulder for a congressional hearing, I think he's held hostage by the board. Agreed. I think it's more than that, but I agree. What do you think it's about? I think it's a man in a black hat. I do. And I don't give a fuck if people say tinfoil hat.

If you don't consider the fact that there is crazy shit out there beyond your control and institutionalized systems that have a certain way of going, which I accept to some degree, which, by the way, some people will now say, like, fuck you for doing that. I don't give a shit. Whatever. If you don't think, though, that that can go to potentially evil spots and force people to do things uncharacteristically of who they are, you're out of your fucking mind. Yeah. And he has never struck me.

I look at actions. His actions in the past have never struck me as a pro-censorship guy. And yet everything that's happened in the last six months, even if like some things that he was censoring, I disagree with, which I frankly, I disagree with pretty much all of it. Yeah yeah it doesn't make it right because i believe in the slippery slope and the slippery slope is terrifying i mean we're down it we're down it yeah we're down the slippery slope and i guess i'm very comfortable going on record here that i feel like freedom of speech is we're in jeopardy it is people argue about the second amendment and i'm a big second amendment guy the dave chappelle had the best has the best take on that what's that he said the second amendment is there in case the first

doesn't work out i've heard that i didn't know that was him that invented that but that's great i mean he's a fucking genius but i will come back and say it might be right and for all the right reasons it might be wrong because with all due respect to the second amendment which i do agree with him does protect the first i feel like we've jumped the jump the shark here and gone to that first and if we lose the first the second amendment almost doesn't matter i'm concerned about the first amendment yeah yeah you and i share that i'm like deeply deeply deeply concerned all right i'm not going to touch that because we got to wrap up this has been awesome we're gonna do this again the takeout is downstairs i'm sure it's been there for a while we went through a full blade and boy it was good it was good i've never had this it was great

we went through a full one of those we talked about life bitcoin in the pursuit of happiness that's how it should be thanks for having having me, dude. Dude, pleasure. We didn't even get to what you do, which is some wild shit. So hold off. Don't say anything. We'll come back. He'll be in here in a few months. But Matt Kaminosh, thank you, brother.

Dude, thanks, Julian. Good to see you. Everybody else, give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace.