Julian Dorey Podcast - #459 - Charlie Kirk Investigator vs. Forensics Expert on COVERUP | Baron Coleman & Joseph Scott Morgan

Episode Date: August 7, 2026

SPONSORS: 1) ULTRA POUCHES: Don’t sleep on @ultrapouches. New customers get 15% Off with code JULIAN at https://takeultra.com! #UltraPouches #ad 2) MARS MEN: For a limited time, get 50% off for life, free shipping, and 3 free gifts at Mars Men at https://mengotomars.com. #ad JOIN PATREON FOR EARLY UNCENSORED EPISODE RELEASES: https://www.patreon.com/JulianDorey CLIPPERS DISCORD: https://discord.gg/8QmWEKJ3BT (***TIMESTAMPS in Description Below) ~ Baron Coleman is a Trial Lawyer, Investigator & YouTuber. He is one of the most prominent commentators on the Charlie Kirk Case in the world. Joseph Scott Morgan is a Forensics Expert, Author & YouTuber. His book, “Blood Beneath My Feet” is considered by many the greatest forensics memoir ever written. BARON's LINKS - YT: https://www.youtube.com/@realbaronpodcast - X: https://x.com/baroncoleman - IG: https://www.instagram.com/realbaronpodcast/ JOSEPH's LINKS - YT: https://www.youtube.com/@josephscottmorgan - X: https://x.com/JoScottForensic - IG: https://www.instagram.com/josephscottmorgan/?hl=en - BOOK - https://a.co/d/08xwD7ML FOLLOW JULIAN DOREY IG: https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey/ X: https://x.com/juliandorey JULIAN YT CHANNELS - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Clips YT: https://www.youtube.com/@juliandoreyclips - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Daily YT: https://www.youtube.com/@JulianDoreyDaily - SUBSCRIBE to Best of JDP: https://www.youtube.com/@bestofJDP ****TIMESTAMPS**** 0:00 - Baron & JSM Examine the Kirk Evidence 8:13 - The .30-06 Oddities 20:51 - The Most Important Kirk Evidence Nobody Has 30:22 - The Grease Wipe, Kirk's Strange Physical Reaction & Why the Spinal Cord Matters 46:12 - "Brian Harpole Claims He Cut It Off" & Why JSM Says ‘This’ is Below Standard 56:20 - ATF Testing, First Responder Failures & How to Determine Gunshot vs Something Else 1:05:10 - Video of Responders After Fatality & Blood Pour Out Examined 1:16:30 - Witness Said "It Came From Down There" & Absent Space Sound Theory 1:27:17 - Necklace Was Never Collected & Erika Kirk Wearing Repaired Version 1:38:40 - JSM Confirms Baron’s Suspicions & Strange Issue with Cameras 1:51:09 - Crime Scene Errors & How JSM Would Have Handled This 2:00:59 - FARO Is a Game Changer & Video of Charlie Being Carried to His Car 2:14:12 - Every Security Person Will Be Called to Trial & Spinal Cord Question 2:23:44 - Body Immediately Embalmed & Chain of Custody Problems 2:35:17 - Events before pronounced Dead & Why Police Have Different Case Numbers 2:46:43 - Personnel in the Room With Charlie's Body & What Happens at 10:30 PM 2:58:34 - Opening the Body Up & Damage to the Top of the Heart Significance 3:04:53 - Reading the Medical Examiner's Report 3:15:54 - What Comes After the Preliminary Hearing & Standards in Organ Photography 3:27:00 - Opening the Skull, Brain Stem & Probably Finish Around 1:30 AM 3:37:40 - Chain of Custody Post Autopsy & Police Should Have “This” Key Evidence 3:48:50 - Rooftop Video Oddities, GATE Analysis & "Few Hands on This Weapon as Possible" 4:00:54 - 7 Apparent Bullet Fragments and Only 4 Given Up Question 4:11:50 - "They Oughta Be Very Generous With Evidence" 4:15:35 - Baron Coleman & JSM’s Work CREDITS: - Host, Editor & Producer: Julian Dorey - COO, Producer & Editor: Alessi Allaman - https://www.youtube.com/@UCyLKzv5fKxGmVQg3cMJJzyQ - In-Studio Producer: Joey Deef Julian Dorey Podcast Episode 459 - Baron Coleman & Joseph Scott Morgan Music by Artlist.io Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm so glad you did not get stuck in Newark Airport for like the 50th fucking time. You were like the Tom Hanks of the terminal of the Newark Airport. Barron, this guy, every time he flies here, Newark just shuts down and he gets stuck sleeping on the floor there. Yeah. It's a black cloud. It's a black cloud for you. It is. Yeah.

I was digging it, though, for a while. For a while. Yeah, yeah. They had me down the international terminal. And that was, they had circles. Everybody was in their own little ethnic groups. And I was left out in the cold. So I spent the night down there.

Oh, that's good. That's good. Well, we had a great podcast yesterday, Barron, so now we got both you in here. Obviously, Joseph, you were in here a few weeks ago, been on the show a bunch of different times talking about cases. We, of course, are going through the Charlie Kirk case. This man, Baron Coleman, is like the dude online. What is it, 152 episodes and counting now? It sounds close.

Yeah, close. Yeah, I honestly don't know the number, but it sounds about right. It's a lot. He's live streaming three, four times a week going through every single piece of it. And so I thought after people had been requesting you to come on, of course, I was going to bring you on, and then I had done the episode with you. And my thought was I'd probably have Baron on like two months later. I ended up doing that way faster because I think it'd be way more effective with the two of you in here. Barron, you're obviously like a lifelong litigator. Joseph, you're a lifelong forensics expert. Those are two different pieces of this case. Barron, you've covered a lot of the context around the case, building up to it, motives, stuff like that. That's less your lane, Joseph. You're more looking at. at the investigation, what could have been right, what could have been wrong. So we had a chance to all hop on a Zoom and talk for an hour and go through some ideas of like how we might approach this. And so I think today what would be good is to kind of go through different parts of the case and obviously

break down what you think could have happened from an investigative standpoint, what did actually happen, what's been reported to happen, and then you can fire away with all the many questions you have surrounding things that seem suspect about this, Barron. Hey guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five-star review. They're both a huge huge help. Thank you. But to begin, just for people who somehow have not seen you online at this point, Baron, I'd like you to just introduce yourself in your background. And Joseph, for people who haven't seen you on my show before, I'd like you to introduce your background.

And then we'll go from there. Baron Coleman, been a lawyer for the last 20 years, done civil defense litigation, medical malpractice litigation. political consulting, lobbying, broadcasting. I don't know, man. I feel like I've done everything. Got a podcast right now on YouTube. If you Google Baron Coleman, it'll be the first thing that comes up. You forgot the tax collecting.

Oh, I did do seven and a half weeks with the Alabama Department of Revenue. Yikes. I'm on to this guy. I probably processed your tag at one point, Joseph. Oh, Lord. It's all right. I worked at a bank before this, so people will run with it. Joseph? Yeah, sure. Let's see, 21 years now in academia. Currently at Jacksonville State University.

I'm a distinguished scholar of applied forensics there. And prior to that, I was the senior investigator with a medical examiner in Atlanta. And prior to that, I was with the Jefferson Parish Coroner's Office in New Orleans. And so started my career there. So been at it for about 40 years, I guess. Quick question on that too, because it's something I mess up all the time. But, you know, people, all of us out here, like we'll interchange terms like medical examiner and coroner, which I think is totally understandable. But if there is like some sort of difference between the two, how would you define that? Yeah, so typically coroners are elected, all right? And even in Louisiana, where I started my career, the corners there are elected, but by state law, you have to be an MD in order to run for a coroner. Whereas in other places, there are other states where you can have as little education as a GED to run for the office. It's one of the oldest offices that falls under the umbrella. British common law. It's actually mentioned in the Magna Carta. It's like one of four words that you can actually sheriff, bailiff, coroner, and there's one other, I can't remember. But you can actually sit in like the 27th paragraph. Medical examiners, though, are physicians. And typically, they're board-certified forensic pathologist. And so if you look at their background, you got to go to medical school, obviously, that's four years. Then if you get a pathology residency,

that's five years. So that's anatomical and clinical. Then if you want to become a forensic pathologist, you have to do an additional year of a forensic fellowship. And there's, I don't know, there's probably 24, I think, in the nation. We had one in Atlanta. We took two students per year, one international, one national. And, And it's rigorous strength. It's like one of the few jobs you can get in medicine where the more education and training you get, the less money you make. Because at the end of the day, if you're a forensic pathologist, unless you become a private

consultant, you're going to be a bureaucrat. So that's what it comes down. So there's a lot of bureaucrats out there, too, in different offices across the country who probably don't do as good a job maybe because of the qualifications. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That would be, I think that that would be a reasonable statement. And there's, there's not a lot of them. There's just not a lot of forensic pathologists that are out there.

Not many. You know, you can beat around the country and, and they're not going to go to like the small rural areas of the country because there's none of cases. So, you know, in state I live in, like, the bodies literally from where I am, They have to be transported two and a half hours to get to a forensic pathologist for those autopsies to be conducted. Yeah. So there's probably more neurosurgeons out there.

I'm sure there are than forensic pathologists. Got it. Yeah. All right. All right. Well, let's start right at the beginning of the case, obviously, where Charlie is assassinated and he gets hit with something, which is up for a lot of debate. So, Barron, you and I had a chance to go into some of this yesterday in what will be the previous episode. but what the state has said is that a German Mouser rifle that belonged to Tyler Robinson's grandfather, is what they allege,

shot Charlie Kirk with a 30-ought-6 from the rooftop 138 yards away, and according to what they say, the bullet did not exit. It hit him here, where the carotid jugular and what's the other one? Oh, the external jugular. External jugular. Any of the structures, bony structures. So it hit them there. Obviously, we also lost a lot of blood.

But what were your biggest issues with that part as far as what we've heard from the state at this point where you have a lot of open questions? Well, I think, you know, it wasn't initially a question of mine until the YouTubers who are the sniper experts and the Green Berets and all the gun experts, they're getting out there. And they're like, well, let's recreate the shot. And they get ballistics gel and they get dummies and they get cows and pigs and hamhawks and legs and thighs and thigh bones. and femurs and they keep taking this shot over and over and over and I watch hundreds or thousands of rounds go through this and nobody can replicate the shot nobody can get it to stop at all inside of anything they'll put you know 16 18 20 inches of muscle and tissue and fat and bone and steel plates and and concrete cinder blocks and and I mean they just stack stuff up and they cannot

get the shot to stop inside of it and and so you look and and as I'm watching it, I'm thinking, man, maybe he wasn't shot with a 30 out six. Maybe it was it was another gun from another location. Maybe it was, you know, Chris Martinson had come along at this point. We talked about this yesterday. Martinson saying maybe it was a lower caliber round from a different angle. Because if you look at the, where it entered the neck, it was kind of the left side of the neck, well left of the Adams apple, and it was at a nine degree angle. And, you know, if you, if you trace that nine degree, and Martinson did a good job. He put up a slice of a neck and he showed an arrow going right through it and it's nowhere near the vertebra. It's it's well to the left of it.

And so you you just put it all together and you start looking at it and you say this is, if it was rare, that's one thing. You know, if one out of a thousand shots that these guys were trying to replicate could have stopped inside of something or a hundred or ten of them or some number greater than zero, you start to look at it and say, hey, maybe this was just a really rare occurrence. And at the time, we didn't know what kind of round it was. We didn't know if it was hand-loaded. We didn't know if it's frangible. We didn't know if it was a full metal jacket. We didn't know what the grain was.

We know all that now. They showed us the box of rounds that it came out of. Or they told us the box of rounds that it came out of. We got to see the spent casing that it came out of. And so now we know a little more about it. And I think it's even less likely that, you know, you could come up with a scenario intellectually. And you could say, yeah, you know, but bullets do weird things. And they, you know, dump a lot of energy.

and that energy disperses inside a living human, you can go through that scenario, but if you can't ever replicate it, ever, you can never redo it. I mean, science is replication. If you can't replicate something, it's not science. It's a guess. It's a hypothesis. The science is being able to say, here, let's reproduce it.

And it's irreproducible, as far as I'm concerned. It can't be reproduced. And so if there's some theoretical basis upon which you could mathematically explain that it might be able to happen, I'm willing to accept it, and I've told you yesterday, I'm open to the fact that Tyler Robinson shot him with the 30 out 6. I just find it increasingly more unlikely with every additional piece of evidence that comes out. Ever woken up and immediately needed a nicotine pouch or a cup of coffee just to feel like a human? I mean, so many people out there are relying on coffee, pouches and energy drinks from the moment they wake up to the moment they go to bed every day just to stop from crashing.

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After you purchased, they're going to ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them I sent you. Yeah, do you think if you had to forget the rest of the case and who it was, just pretend it wasn't Charlie Kirk, who was any kind of case where we saw someone. shot from this far away and what obviously happened with a lack of exit wound. If you had to go into court and prove that 30-0-06 did it, I guess that would be from the prosecution side. You believe that you would have an extremely difficult case in front of you to do that and convince a jury that that happened. Yeah, because jurors are not required to leave their common sense of the door.

And in fact, in an opening and a good defense lawyer will tell them that in the opening. You can't bring in any fact-based knowledge about this case, the only thing you're allowed to learn about this case is going to come from that witness stand and what the judge tells you you can consider. And if the judge says you cannot consider something, you are not permitted to consider it. But at the same time, you're not required to unpack all the common sense, all your lived experiences, put them in a suitcase, put them by the courtroom door, walk in, make a determination, pick it back up and leave on your way out. You're allowed to consider your lived experiences.

This is Utah. It's a rural place. It is a, these people are not unfamiliar with firearms. They're just not unfamiliar with firearms. You're not either. You fire a lot. Yeah, I shoot. And I'm a fan.

And it's, it's, it's just inconceivable to me that you'll catch 12 people on a jury who all 12 will go, yeah, okay, that makes sense. And not just makes sense. Not that just possible. Again, the standard is reasonable doubt. Right. Almost absolutely certain. You know, a reasonable person could not disagree. with this outcome on any one of these elements, including that it was a 30 out six.

And I think that's a very, very steep burden considering. Now, you're going to be able to pay an expert to come in and say it's possible. Yeah, I mean, you can pay any expert. And I say this as someone who's hired a lot of experts. It's not unlike most professions. You're paying them for a service. What do you need me to say? Okay, I'll be happy.

I can come up with a mathematical scenario where that's possible. I can tell you examples of how it might have happened. I can, you know, experts are allowed to hypothesize. size. So I can tell you a way in which it might happen. Well, the defense is going to go find somebody who's going to say, impossible, not possible. And so this is ultimately going to come down to a battle of the experts. You're going to have an expert from the prosecution side. You're going an expert from the defense side. And you're going to have a jury of 12 decide which expert they like better on that issue. And but they're also going to have their lived experiences. They're going to

have their common sense. If you've ever fired a 30 out six, you know that sound. It's different from a 308. It's different from a 223. It's a deep, big, powerful sound. It's a huge round. It's like firing a cannon. And if you've ever shot something with a 30 out six, you're immediately going to say, no, no, I don't believe it. You're going to have to have a really powerful expert from the prosecution

to overcome that lived experience. Joseph, if we didn't have a video of it, because obviously most cases you went to in your life, it's not like you had a video of the shot happening. I wish I had, yeah. Right, that would have made it easy. No kidding. But without even the video,

So starting with just looking at it, if you got to the scene, let's say same scenario, the body was taken off the scene, obviously, because they had tried to do life-saving measures, and you were able to get witnesses there to describe what had happened. What would be the number one questions you'd be asking them about what they would have observed on the body so that you could make a determination or some hypothesis on what might have killed him? Well, I think from the perspective of, and this is to the exclusion of not having a video is what we're saying here. So, right. So I think that probably, from my perspective, just talking to people and not having, not having videography and not having a body to see at the scene in place. My big question, first off, always ask about sound. and that's one of the common things that we go, you know, what did you hear? You know, sight is one thing, but what did you hear, you know?

And then you consider the dynamics of this environment that this places in, because where he was perched is down in a hole, essentially. And they're saying that this round was fired from an elevated position. Well, sound can be deceiving, you know, and we've seen this played out over and over and over. I've seen it played out, you know, on the street, you know, relative to cases that we might work. because you don't know what the point of origin is, but you want to get as many perspectives as you can relative to this. Right now, you have this huge collection of people that were there, right? And how many direct statements did they take at that moment of time?

So I would personally start with sound. What did you hear it? At what point in time did you hear it? And then what did you see? Where were you standing when you saw this? How far away were you when you saw this? And what was your initial response? Because people will say they heard something and then they didn't follow the rest.

They didn't follow the rest of what's being played out before them. They'll turn away. They'll duck. You'll have all this kind of dynamic, this dynamic environment. You can actually see it in the video. You'll see people, you know, kind of reacting like this. And then so you're going to have multiple POVs on this as well. And again, this particular.

case is separate from anything I've ever worked like this. You know, like where even if I had a huge collection of people, the biggest collection of people I've ever had that actually witnessed a shooting was under 100 people. They're saying thousands, maybe, 3,000. I'm not really sure that were there that day. So that many witnesses, that many eyes on this situation. I'm very curious as to what these statements are going to be like. Little sidebar here. I don't know. I don't if this will be helpful. If it's not, just ignore it. But you were on the scene of the Richard Jewel case, which was a bombing in 1996 at the Atlanta Olympics. Right. Okay. So that's not a gunshot. It's a bombing. But the same kind of questions that you're wondering right there with what is in this case a gunshot,

where you asked people. And we had videography with that too. You did. Oh yeah. Yeah. You can see the explosion. Jack Mack and the heart attack were playing at the, there was a concert. And, the actual single fatality that we had who was a school teacher from South Georgia. She was standing there

and she was standing adjacent to like a bronze statue. And if she had been standing one foot to the left when that thing detonated, she would have lived but she caught a sheet metal screw

in her eye and went into her brain stem. So yeah, we had videography of that. Of course it wasn't the quality that these things rise to today.

I mean, can you imagine? Plus, you had a lot of injured people there. Right. We're very fortunate that night. But you were asking similar questions about the dynamics and everything because they're obviously ducking for cover. Yeah, yeah. Same situation.

Okay. What about the kinetic energy? You and I had talked about this in episode 448, and there's a lot of debate on that. But if you fire any gun, let's just start with that, center mass. Obviously, you know, you're hitting it where it can, most kind of explode across and actually have the energy evenly distribute.

If you fire it off mass, it might behave a little differently. I don't know. To me, it still is very suspect that there wouldn't be an exit wound or anything like that. But would it be possible for a 30-a-6 to not exit, in your opinion, if it doesn't hit center mass and actually hits on this side where there's more arteries and, I don't know. Yeah, soft tissue is what you're referring. into. And, you know, because you are left of the midline. Now, I can say definitively that I see a defect appear and blood appears, or what appears to be blood, right, appears from that defect in the neck.

What appears to be blood? I wasn't there. I can't say definitively that that is blood, right? I thought he was going with a Charlie still alive thing. Yeah. I was getting real Epstein body. If you want to get your ass into a sling with an attorney on stand, unless you can test the blood you say that you see and confirm that it is blood, like with a Castle Meyer test at the scene, it ain't blood. You can say it appears to be blood. So it appears to be blood. Very lowly of you.

Thank you. I've been burned enough. So you see the defect appear, right? And then you see what appears to be blood exiting forth from that location. And it is soft tissue. So if you'd had a midline impact, say where you're going through, you're going through the trachea, for instance, where it enters right here and you've got this cartilaginous body in here, that would slow it a bit more, I think, all right? Okay, it would diminish some of the velocity. And what do you mean by that? Because it, because it's a firmer structure

and it can begin to distribute all that force? Yeah, yeah. But it's still, you're still going to have, in my opinion, you're still going to have this kinetic reaction, right, to the soft tissue where you'll see this kind of travel out. Now, of course, we haven't seen all the video, I don't think. I've got that one view where he's struck, and I can't really make out a tremendous amount of detail relative to that as to how the skin reacts, however, or the tissue. I see the shirt, and I see the shirt billow. And for me, automatically, everything that we learn,

in ballistics and terminal ballistics, you know, you're going to have this kinetic delivery. And so when you see this kind of billow like this, as we kind of see like this, for me, immediately when I saw that, I knew that that was the delivery of that energy from that round into the neck. And then, of course, there's been, and one of my big questions is, and I don't know if we talked about this, and one of the things that's troubling to me about this case is, I want to know where the shirt is. I've got to know where that shirt is.

What would the shirt tell you? Oh, it's going to tell me a lot. It's going to tell me a lot. And this is why. If we have the shirt, any other kind of speculative things that are out there, any kind of other terminal instrument that may have been used? Because it's, you know, guys, I've got to tell you, forensics is not just merely confirmatory.

in the sense of finding a positive finding. Forensics is also about negative findings as well. Is there an absence of something? So let's just say, for the sake of saying, that we've got an explosive device. Well, the explosive device that might be utilized in an event like this, that the propellant that you would see, say, for instance, with a 30 out six round,

that's contained in the casing that drives that range, round down range. It's not going to be the same as say something that you use as some kind of shaped charge on a, you know, on a mic or something like that. So what we would do with the shirt and I hope that they saved it. I truly do. I don't know what because I've seen guys, I can't tell you how many times I've seen things thrown into garbage cans, shirts that are cut up the middle when they're doing heroic measures, things being ripped off and then you don't get the shirt or any other item of clothing and you're looking for a particular matter that might go back to something. Is it more common to keep the clothing? Yeah. 50%, 80%, 100%? Yeah, most, you know,

to the point like, and I'm just kind of, I don't want to go too far off in the, you know, weeds with this. We can go off in the weeds. Well, no, no, no. What I'm saying is, is that we've, we have tried to make a real effort with emergency room staff now in the days. In the days, And this is why, because if a person rolls in and they're being treated, right, many times, you know, they'll just, nurses always have scissors, you know, so they'll take their scissors off, you know, and cut it, you know. And the next thing you know, the custodian is gathering up all of the, you know, the red bags with the bloody trash in it and they're putting it in the dumpster. I've done dumpster dives behind Grady Hospital in Atlanta, behind chair. Hospital in New Orleans looking for one single item like that because it's a key. And I hope that they secured every stitch of clothing he had because again, going back to the point, it's as important

to rule things out as it is to rule things in because you're trying to stay in the middle with the science itself. So two things on that. One, is there a procedure? Is that like a standard procedure save all the clothes? Yeah. And I mean, is that well known across the board? or Tempanooga's hospital would have known. Absolutely. And not state to state. It's the same across the court. Yeah, well, yeah, and I can't speak to necessarily what their procedures would have been at this facility.

But they have enough trauma cases, I would imagine, that have come in over the years. There should have been a police officer that was there that was being directed by a detective or the investigators. It could be a state ME investigator that was stationed in that area. I don't know how they're distributed around the state. you know, somebody like in my former position, I'm going to track down the charge nurse that's running that code. I'm going to talk to the emergency room physician, where are his clothes, where are his clothes? And even in a case like this where I've got an individual that, you know, for a sight, you're seeing them shot from a distance, I don't give two hoots in hell, I'm bagging their

hands. I'm going to bag their hands just in case there is anything there. You know, because You can't just merely assume you talked about just a moment ago, what if we didn't have CCTV? What if it was just done? I don't know what anybody saw. I don't know what I wasn't there. So I'm going to bag the hands so that I can do any kind of sampling at the emergency. Well, not at the emergency room, but back at the ME's office where I can collect anything, any kind of GSR that might be on the hands. Rule it in, rule it out.

I don't know. You know, I have no idea I wasn't there. That should have been collected. The shirt in particular should have been collected, tested. I want to look at the collar. Any, you know, people have talked about microphones and all these sorts of things, wherever a mic is positioned. It was right.

Yeah. I want to know. I want to know. Left clavicle. I mean, right, clavicle. What is going on with that particular area? Because if anything, and I mean anything initiated right there, you're going to have residue. So second thing on the shirt, you said it's pretty standard across.

the board. It is. They know. So what likelihood is it? In other words, in your experience, how often do you see the shirts not kept? More so now than in the past. You see them not kept more now? No, I see them more kept now than in the past where you would just, you know, because some people that are just working, you know, you got to, you know, the medical staff that's there, they're going on to the next case. And I know we're talking about Charlie here, but there's other people coming in to be treated, right? And so they're going from case to case. And it all depends on what the caseload is like that particular day. That's why it's so important that you want to have law enforcement representatives that are there that are tuned in because once they have called

the code, once they have said, this is done and pronounced death. And pronouncement of death is different than time of death, all right, just so you guys understand. Can you explain that? Yeah, pronouncement of death is a legalese term. That's the official time. You know, I declare you dead. Time of death is a scientific finding. That's why we do rigormortus and libramortus and algermortus and stomach contents and all that stuff. So there are two different things and people conflate those things all the time. Anyway, so once he has been declared dead, we know that this is a homicide or we suspect that it's a homicide. That body is now your central piece of evidence. And it should be protected at all costs.

Including all the things that came in on. Everything. And so maybe final question on the shirt. Yeah. Can you quantify it in a percentage basis of how often the shirt is preserved or not preserved? I could. Like how unusual is it that the shirt would be cost? I'll put it to you this way.

I think in my own in my own perception, when I first started in the field back when dinosaurs were on the earth, I would say. You're only 87. Only 87. I mean, you look great. Still dragging my stumps across the ground. Yeah. Yeah, so I would say probably back in the day it may have been a 50-50 proposition as to whether you're not going to get it. I'd say that number has probably come up hopefully to just above 80% now.

And some people will look at it that are civilians that don't do forensics that are working as someone in an emergency room. They might not necessarily see the value in it. We try to see the value in everything that comes in with the body. Everything has a purpose. Everything has, you know, has value to it for us because we have to have as much sample as we can to test it. How would, no, Baron, you said that the injury map was all the way from down here. It was from the top of his heart to the top of his head. Yeah, what did you say was on his head?

In the pridal low, I'm way outside of my depth here, but there was some sort of damage above that between his skull and that region of his brain. Okay. So we'll come back to that because that's important. But staying with the shirt for a second. So, i.e., the shirt is the most critical piece of clothing just based on where the injuries all occurred. For me, it would be. And again, going to this idea of exclusion. One of the questions is that will be asked and has to be answered in court.

When that forensic pathologist gets up on the stand, which they will, they're going to look at that autopsy report. And if they, the state, this is not Morgan saying that, if the state is saying that this is, in fact, a gunfire-related death, all right, the attorney is going to ask a question that is similar to this. So, Dr. Smith, whatever the doctor's name is. Guajardo. What, in your opinion, what was the range of fire on this round?

Okay, your assessment. The range of fire? Yeah. So he's going to say it's indeterminate. That means you can't tell, right? You cannot tell how. far away this round was fired based upon the examination of a defect. Okay? All right. The bullet hole itself.

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He's going to look at the jury and he's going to say something like, okay, so, this is how it works. If someone, and you'll get very, you'll have variable numbers that come along with this. So they'll say something like, well, if it's a press contact, close contact, you're going to have very tight deposition of unburned powder. Okay. Unburn powder. Anything comes out of the muzzle is going to tattoo the skin. It'll, you know, like this and it'll kind of surround that area.

all right unburned powder you can get smoke you can get all kinds of stuff and that could be from different things yeah we're talking about we're talking about a close range close range you know round like this and then the further you move away it's like a the best way to describe it so that folks really understand it's like having a a water hose with a nozzle on it so as you move further and further away the spray kind of distributes like that okay and based upon the that you can come up with, the kind of the diameter of the deposition of the powder and all of that stuff, you get an idea of rain. That's how they determine range of fire with a firearm.

But there's a point where it's generally between about, people will say between 18 and 36 inches away. Okay. And a lot of this is dependent upon the type of weapon it is, what type of ammo is being fired, what kind of load it is. what kind of load it is. As you move further and further away, well, anything coming out of the muzzle of that weapon that is not a lead core projectile has no, has very limited or inadequate aerodynamic characteristics.

So it's almost like talcum powder at one point in time we're just kind of showers to the ground. You're not going to have anything. You move further and further back. So this rampant, that's being fired allegedly from here. 138 yards is what they say. Yeah.

You're talking about no evidence of deposition, but here's the cool thing about it, is that with a distance round, if you have something that is fired at a distance, there's two things we look for. There's going to be an abrasion. And this abrasion is, is,

Barry, can't see your wrist real quick. Okay, so this is what it's going to look like. Yeah, hold it on.

Remember, remember when we were kids, and I'm not going to do this. No, you can, Indian burn. You remember when we were kids and someone would grab your wrist like this,

and they would twist like this and like this opposite, right? And you get this burning feeling, circumferentially all around here. Okay? Well, now... Indian burn. You said that.

I wasn't going to say it. Wait, he can't say that now. Come on. You're not allowed to say that? Wait, hang on. Hush. Everybody hush. I hear knocking at the door right now.

Jesus. He's culturally appropriated wrist injuries. I'm a college professor. I have to do this. I have to be careful. Anyway, so imagine this round, this traveling down range that is spinning at this incredible, incredible speed.

And when it hits the skin, guess what happens? It literally corkscrews into the skin. So you get this little abrasion ring right there. We look for that. And that's evidence that a bullet pass through. Okay. Now, the other thing that we look for is something called grease wipe or bullet wipe. And unfortunately, you don't have any rounds around here.

but if you see a casing on a fully intact live round, where the neck of the round is right here, and the projectiles actually seated down into the neck or seated down into the neck, there's a little bit of grease that they put on this thing, and then they crimp it like that, and that holes around, and that's lubricated, so that when it comes out,

when that firing pin initiates through the little flash holes, It hits the propellant and then drives this thing out. It's being held in there by the crimping, okay? That holds it in place. But you want it lubricated to a certain degree, so it's going to begin to spin out in an effective manner. Well, you get a little bit of grease in there, too. So you'll see not only the little collar.

It's actually called a collar abrasion where the skin is twisted. You'll also see a little grease ring. And if the weapon is dirty, you can actually see, or the rounds are dirty. you can actually see dirt deposit, particularly microscopically, if they go in and take a section of the actual entry point, which in this case I hope they did. Matter of fact, I hope they excised the entire wound and took it out. Excised it? Yeah, just cut it all out and saved it.

I'm hoping they did. Saved it? Oh, hell, yeah. Like the mortician. I've got so many things. I want them to have saved in this case. They've got to save all this stuff through the termination of his legal procedures. So in a death case, that's until they put the needle in his arm.

Yeah. All this stuff has to be saved. Has to be retained. Yeah. The other thing I'm hoping that they saved are all the structures of the neck. Everything. I'm talking about the larynx, the fernics, the tongue. Can I ask you a question?

What if they didn't? What would they tell you? If they didn't, then they feel very comfortable. I hope they feel comfortable with it because if you don't retain it and save it, then you can't go back and, you know, like you were just, you know, pointing out, Aaron, you know, retention is a watchword with any, people always flee away from this. I don't know why it is, but people always flee, flee away from the idea of stating that a human body is evidence. This is a big piece of evidence that we have. You know, why would you go and

send it back to the funeral home? You know, we're doing the Nolan Well saying, talked about that a few months golf camera. And people are losing their minds over, No. in Wells because the state of Mississippi retained all of the structures in his neck. As they're supposed to. As they're supposed to, yeah. I've not followed that. Was he strangled or what was the... They don't know.

I mean, they haven't released it yet. They're thinking drowning. They don't know, but the state ME in Mississippi felt as though that need to save that. So when the second autopsy was performed by somebody retained by the family in D.C., matter of fact, it was done by the guy that was the former chief medical examiner for D.C. great guy, very thorough. We've already seen his report. He says, you know, I can't look at the hyoid, where we heard the hyoid before.

Can't see the hyoid because they still have it, you know, at the M.E.'s office. Well, how much more so with this case, we're not talking obviously about an asphyxial case. We're talking about a gunfire. But these organ structures, the structures of the neck, and we do refer to them as the organs of the neck, those should have been retained. And here's one more. that one the vertebra should have been retained so I would I would go and I've done this before I would go as high as I've removed C1 through C6 can we put that on

the screen deep just so people and can I ask you a question while you're well we're pulling it up yeah if they if they had taken those out and retained them would that be something really evident to the to the funeral home or whoever prep the body? Would he immediately upon examining the body or prepping the body? Probably make a comment about it. Yeah, if they had seen it absent because there's certain things, yeah, there you go. So the Atlas is C1. Julian, I think we talked about that before. That's like Atlas, you know, supporting the earth and supporting the head. So that's top end. That's a superior position. So I, you know, I probably, you know, if it were me, I would advise the forensic.

pathologist to probably keep the lion's share of the cervical vertebra intact and here's another reason if and I assume I don't know who they've retained at this point Tyler Robinson you know that is the accused I'm assuming his team is going to retain the services of a forensic pathologist somebody that will be retained on his behalf that can review this stuff. Review, obviously they'll review the autopsy report, the microscopy relative, or the histology, the little tissues that they took, talks, all that stuff. But the dynamics here are very important because you want to see this and you also want

to see the spinal cord because one of the things that you saw in that, or at least I did, is you see this kind of reactive event where he, you know, kind of clutches his thumb like this and list over to the left. And that's, that's like, you know, any kind of event where you see, like, you know, you watch football, you know, on the weekends. You see these guys get head injuries, right? And that's, you know, that concussive thing that happens. It's impacting the he actually was, he actually was more flexed at the elbow. Yeah. It was clenching his fist. So what would that tell you injury-wise? Well, I mean, it would indicate to me at least if I was viewing that, I'd say, you know, there's some kind of neurological thing going on here.

Something was impacted that. It's disrupting the electrical impulses. But is he getting impulses from his brain to his muscles? Hard to know. Hard to know. And I don't know. They might call in a neuropathologist to talk about that. I would.

Because they have released a few lines of the examiner's report. And I don't know if you've seen them. As far as saving the cervical vertebrae, I don't. don't know whether they were able to do that. In the report, they described a complete obliteration of the left side from C2 to C7. And then they said the spinal cord, the cervical spinal cord, was traumatically absent from C2 to C7. So I don't know that there's anything. Trematically absent. Trematically absent. So I don't know that there's anything to save. No, there is because what you can do by saving the physical structures of it is you can go back and you can demonstrate it. Okay.

So if there is a defect in the bony structure, you don't want any unanswer questions here. Yeah, but knowing that now, do you think it's more likely they would have saved it? I would think so. And what would it tell you if they didn't? They felt very comfortable with their findings. What do you mean by that? That the assessment that they did in what we refer to as being in situ,

which means fancy word for in place. They felt comfortable enough. with their assessment in situ with the cervical vertebra and the disc and the spinal cord that they left it in place and they didn't take it out. So any kind of documentation they would have had to have done, we talked the other day before they would, and I can promise you they did this, pretty sure, before they ever broke out the cold steel in the autopsy room, they would have. gone into that defect with...

Oh, the green... With probes. Yeah, and they would have taken images in profile... With the sticks, like... In place, yeah. Yeah, that would have happened. But when you say they feel comfortable with it, comfortable enough to make the determination of cause and manner of death?

Not just that, but to hold forth on the stand relative to their anatomical findings and the tremendous. that in the trauma assessment that they did, they would look at that and say, well, we're not going to need it. And a lot of this is going to be pro-sector dependent. How comfortable does the forensic pathologists feel with their skill level? And also, some tend to be a bit more, how can I say this, politely, fastidious about things that they're going to retain and hold on to.

So what, at a bare minimum, what do you think they were just in order to even keep the standard? What do you think they retained? Well, hopefully, at minimum, I'm hoping they retained the spinal cord. Okay. Which you would have to trim out. And you think it would fall below the standard if they didn't? For me, it would. Okay.

And what else? Particularly where, I'd hate to say this, because it elevates this case above all other homicides. And I don't believe in that. You know, I think that the standard should be the standard, no matter who it is, all right. but you do have cases where you will have pathologists that will take extra measures because of they're aware, trust me, they're aware of the static in the air and they'll do things to the point. Now they can do it to a fall too because as you know legally as you know if they I'm just I'm nitpicking here but they can get them on the stand and said we've never done this in the other case.

choose to do it in this case you know and that's that's the kind of thing so the cervical cord yeah spinal cord you think to meet the standard absolutely what other things what are the structure this the cerebral the the cervical vertebrae i would think and you're saying c2 to c7 yeah that's what the report said yeah and so to meet the standard uh you think if they they go to trial and they say we didn't keep this you say they fell below the standard yeah in my opinion and anything else they would have kept yeah yeah anything else that would in order to meet Yeah, the external, that's why I was saying, like, this injury right here. Okay.

So those, but those three things, vertebrae, spinal cord and the wound itself. And anything else is any other trauma-related area? Well, they said all this was destroyed as well. Yeah, well, destroyed is relative. Yeah, I don't know to what degree. Destroyed is not a medical term. No, no, no. I understand.

Disrupted is. Disrupted is a great, great. You can pull it up. It's in one of the filings. It's anatomically disrupted, you know. I actually wanted to. So we obviously can't put this on the screen deep, but can you actually get the video, the main one that everyone saw? While he's going up, can ask you one more question about the shirt?

Absolutely. So different angles of the event seem to show some of the angles seem to show that there might have been a hole punctured in the shirt. I can't tell if that's like a little drop of blood that came out, you know, or if it's, you know, like a little drop of blood came out of the wound. and fell on the exterior of the shirt, or when the shirt came up and did that kind of violent display up into the wound, did it touch it and make a little red that came through? If there's a hole in the shirt, what would that tell you? Well, if there's a hole in the shirt,

scientifically you would have to put forth the idea that something passed through it. I mean, it's kind of an obvious statement, but does it marry up? And where you're going with this, I think, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but where you're going with this is if this is married up. And that because, you know, clothing is very dynamic. You know, when we, it's so weird, guys, when you, if you have somebody that's wearing, like, loose-fitting clothing, oh, I'm sorry.

When you're wearing loose-fitting clothing, you're trying to assess defects in the clothing and trying to match them up with, like, defects in the skin. It's a kind of a treacherous journey sometimes because the two things just don't meet. You think about Trayvon Martin, for instance. I've talked about him extensively. When he was shot, Trayvon Martin was shot. George Zimmerman, when he discharged that weapon, Trevon Martin's hoodie, the infamous hoodie, fell away from the body. Well, when the firearms examiner examined the hoodie,

his assessment was this was a contact gunshot wound. When the forensic pathologist examined Trayvon's Martin's body, and you can actually go and read the office. autopsy report, the body arrived at the facility nude. That clothing had already been removed. And so when the forensic pathologist looked at that and they did their assessment, you know what he said, indeterminate range, just like I was talking about the distance thing. So to try to go into clothing, if you have like a defect in it, a hole in the clothing itself, on the collar, wherever it is, I want to see the shirt. That's why, you know, nothing is left to change.

And I don't think it's clear what it is, but it's a dot that appears. And I remember day one or two, I looked at that and thought, wow, how did a gunshot wound that arrives at his neck? Yeah, yeah. And it could be, it could be blood. And blood's interesting relative to distribution and kind of how it ebbs forth from a defect like this. You know, we saw this kind of, I think the question is at what point in time, and the videography is is difficult to kind of assess without it being super enhanced and whoever enhances it and all that stuff so at what point in time did this i don't know anomaly or whatever you want to call it where at what point

in time did it appear right i think that that's that's a salient question there was something i was thinking when you were describing barron the what was the word they said dramatically destroyed Tramatically absent. Tramatically absent. Okay. So you and I had also talked about how, and I think it was related to that, but correct me if I'm wrong, this would suggest that the spinal cord was completely detached from the brain, which means that there would be no signaling hypothetically coming from the brain. You talked with a neurosurgeon, I believe, about this, right? Yeah.

Okay. So we obviously can't play this on the screen deep, but for us in the room right here where we can see this, let's make that full screen. for a second, Defe. So all we're doing people off cameras, we're watching the video that unfortunately everyone saw last year where you see the shooting. So just let that play for one sec, Thief. Okay. So he gets hit and he still fences. His body comes up, the muscles tense in the elbow and everything. And what you were saying, Baron, that I think is pretty fascinating is that hypothetically, if your brain was completely disconnected upon the shot from your system. How did you describe it? Your body just completely goes. He said it would go flaccid. He said

you have about a 10th to a 10th and a half a second, 10th to a 10th and a half of a second of motor control. And then you'll lose all muscle tone. Everything will go flaccid. Well, and then I went back and time this and it's well over a second that he's holding onto that microphone. So I asked him, I said, could he have, you know, just held on the microphone? He said, no, the hand would have just opened. It would have immediately gravity would have taken over over the whole body. And he said, I can't reconcile that with the injuries that are described. So if we watch... But that's just one man's opinion.

Yeah. Well, if we, it's, I mean, it's a neurosurgeon as well. So, I mean, he deals with this stuff. If we see this again, just in real time, so he's hit and he's still, there's still muscular action. It's still up all the way the ground. That's about, I'm eyeballing it. That's two and a half seconds or so right there.

So that would be far more than what was it, a tenth of a second to a tenth and a half of a second? Yeah. Does that, is that interesting to you? Yeah. is also going to the mic you can see the mic kind of fall away there's and if I can just address this for a second like you're saying like in here we can yeah yeah and there fall away the lapel mic or the SM 58 he's holding the one he's holding yeah there that's what I was

referring to he just you know eventually it falls away from his hand and I don't know how exacting that is as far as but I'll tell you this said we, in our world, in the medical legal world, we, we handle far more, see how I can use this so it didn't get edited out. We handle far more self-harm firearm-related events. and I Thanks for helping the T. Thanks for not TOS bombing the podcast. Jesus.

These people, man, I'll tell you what. God. I was sitting here like, where is he? I know. It makes me going to drive my head through a brick wall. Anyway. Anyway, people always believe that when there is a self-afflicted event to the head that automatically individuals drop a handgun.

They don't. I come across as many people that are still holding handguns as, you know, as we're not. I mean, people will continue to hold them, you know, after death, after this. And I've seen everything from intra-oral to, I've seen, you know,

obviously temporal shots, frontal. I've seen people do occipital shots, inverted weapons like this, beneath the chin, everything. And so they don't necessarily drop an item. You know, your hands just don't necessarily go like that. But in that situation, you're still, you still have the connection from the brain to the body. Yeah, you do. And that's an excellent point.

See, I don't think I've ever had, to the best of my knowledge, I've ever had a case where somebody's self-inflicted in the neck. I've had center mass in the chest. That happens a lot. Sternal area like that. But that's not necessarily going to impact the spinal cord. Okay. So that's certainly something that's going to have to get cleared up at trial, like what the timeline of that was for sure.

I've got a question. I'd love to know. Have you heard anything about the status of the clothing? I mean, is that something that has been discussed? or because I got to, you know, just watching this right now, I would love to know what happened to that Freedom shirt. Yeah, we all would. Yeah. I mean, what the status of it is.

So the only thing we heard about the Freedom shirt was Brian Harple alleges that he cut it off. He did. Brian Harple said on, I think it was Sean Ryan, that he wheels him. into the emergency room, finds a stretcher right to the left, he puts him on the stretcher, they put him in a room, he jumps on top, he cuts the

shirt off because he wants to prepare for a defibrillator. Now, I don't believe any of that. I think that's totally made a... The security guy? Yeah, yeah. That's his... I mean, Brian, don't sue me. I know you're suing people. Don't sue me. But I think I'm accurately representing what he

said on Sean Ryan. Wow. And at that point, that's the last we've heard of the Freedom Shirt. Is that, does that strike you as odd to have a security guide, take control of a body when it's in an emergency room and do anything with the clothing? Secret Service were some of the biggest assholes on the face of the planet when it came to Kennedy now, weren't they? Yeah. And they were quite odd. Yeah.

You know, they're putting, you know, Dr. Rose against the wall, threatening to arrest him. We're taking the body with us. Oh, right. You know, so I don't know. Wouldn't happen to my world, but, you know. A lot of medical professionals have weighed in and said they don't believe that story. I've never seen that happen. It's possible.

I guess it's possible. Imagine you're a doctor that walks in there and you see a civilian in his case just looking at him for the first time, cutting on the body you're about to work on. Like, that's wild to me. But I'm glad you brought it back to the shirt because I wanted to ask you about this earlier. You were talking about the things, all the evidence you'd be looking for on the shirt. And you mentioned, you know, where the mic was, all that. What, like, medically speaking, or I should say scientifically speaking,

what kinds of tests are you performing on the shirt? What are you using products on it? Like, for all of us out there that have no idea how this works. Yeah, so there are specific explosive residue tests that can be done And I got to tell you guys, if it were me, state crime lab, I'm sure, is fantastic in Utah. That shirt for me, I would want that in the hands of ATF because that is where they dance, baby. And I would want them to check that thing from stem to stern. Is this just a microscopic examination?

Are they adding chemical fluids? There's, there can, yeah, there is actually, there's two ways of testing it. First off, we do what's called a gross examination, which the gross examination is literally as it sounds. You are physically looking at the same, you're using hand lenses, and you're also using scopes that have a certain magnification, and you can look over the surface of it. And this is kind of the multi-step process that it goes through. and it's at that point once they have cleared it.

And I wanted to point this out as well, just so you guys know. And we can get to this with DNA as well later because I think a lot of people wonder about how the samples are taken. That shirt would be broken down into little grids. Okay, so if you've got it laid out, for instance, we do this with what are called tape lifts, Tape lifts, like if you take tape and you lift off of the surface of a shirt, say it's the right arm. Well, this is going to be the right anterior arm of the shirt. Okay. That tape lift is set aside, and this is designated like A1.

A2 would be the left anterior aspect and then B1, B2 on the back. And so you're breaking, so that it's controlled. You know, you're just not like randomly searching it. And just as you search it, you would break an item up like that into grid so that you can go back and identify it. Say, I examine grid, such and such. And in here, I found nothing grossly. Then you go back with whatever kind of chemical testing they're going to be doing. And they're going to look for a wide variety of things.

And anything that collect also microscopically is not necessarily. It's not purely a chemical test as much as it is you have, you're going to use spectrometry where certain chemicals bend light in a particular way. And so they're going to look at it from that perspective microscopically. They would run this thing through the mill very, very thoroughly. That's why. So is this the medical examiner? Is this? That's going to be the state of me.

But does the medical examiner take custody of the? Yeah, temporarily you do. And a lot of people don't understand it. I'm glad I got a chance to kind of explain it. So if a body comes into the morgue and it's fully clothed, the best practice is to, in fact, have a crime scene investigator physically there from whoever the law enforcement agency is that is working the case. Okay.

And those items generally are turned. over to that subject, okay, that's in charge of it. Now, there are certain cases where, like, a shirt like that, is going to be super saturated. Obviously, you can see it, you know, that's going to be really, really wet and gunky, okay? We have what we refer to as evidence dryers. Now, they're not like a tumble dryer. It's like a big box that you look.

literally place something on a hanger and you hang it inside the sing and there's no humidity in it and it dries this thing out in place so that it becomes so that any evidence that's on there is manageable and you're not going to lose it and that's not the medical examiner either it all depends on the department okay if you go to la they've got an in-house forensics department there okay so it might have to go somewhere else and it's going to pass through a lot of hands so not even state to state it could be different cities city town to town absolutely and it all depends on you know what kind of resources Again, you're talking about bureaucrats, right? Right.

You know, so it all depends on, you don't know what their funding is. You don't know, you know, there's a lot of unknowns relative to that. Okay. So they would put that in the grid section, so they have that back to refer to. Now, when you're looking at, just take it on the hole rather than focusing on each part of the grid, when you're looking at it, what types of things would you be looking at right away to determine gunshot or something else? Well, for me, in a gross examination, if we go back to the idea that there was an explosive event, okay, explosive events look completely different than firearms events. So you'll actually see, like, bits of charing, you know, around an area.

I've seen cases where things have exploded on people in clothing is like singed, burned. there's a certain element of heat, like really intense heat, that arises from that in the immediate area. So you're not necessarily saying that that happened, but it has to be taken into consideration. If it's a question that has been asked, you want to try to be able to facilitate answering that question, either in the negative or the positive. We don't see any evidence of that or, hey, you know, this might be evidence of it. So in the gross examination, that's kind of what you would be looking for. also with clothing that where you have an explosive event you'll get you'll get this kind of fragmentation thing that takes place so you'll see like little bitty defects in there you know if

if it's if you've got some item that is blowing apart you'll see little defects that are not they're they're not necessarily uniform but you'll see the clothing kind of frayed and torn and that sort of thing okay now Now, once he was actually shot and you see the security team go around it, let's bring the video back in now because we do have video. I had said earlier, let's pretend we didn't have video. How do you look at it? You bet. What are the first things that a good, well-trained, first responding security team should be looking to do handling a body like that on the spot that has been hit with something that traumatic?

Stim the bleeding immediately. I mean, pressure has to be applied, but you can't. This is a, this is a difficult area, man. I mean, it's difficult. You don't want to choke them out. No, you don't. Like, you know, because, you know, one of the things, I mean, you know, it's like, again, when dinosaurs were on the earth, when I went through the Army, you know, when I went through Army basic train all those years. 1824.

It was, man. We had those springfield rifles, man. And muzzle loaders. You, you know, you know, they teach you to apply direct pressure. They do that in any kind of first aid course. The neck in particular is very difficult. you know, how much pressure do you apply in that specific area? But look, if you can't stem the bleeding, all is lost, man.

I mean, you're going to have to stem it. And with an injury or an insult like that. What would you use to stem the bleeding? Your hand? Direct pressure. Yeah. And if you have, I would assume that if you had somebody that had some baseline medical training, they may try to take a four by four,

which is the four-by-four, you know, kind of bandaged thing that you see and try to plug the hole. Perhaps it, I mean, desperate times, desperate measures. But, you know, even if you had a team of surgeons that were standing by with that shot or with that defect, that trauma, they would have a difficult time under those circumstances. Even right on the spot. Yeah, I think they would, yeah. So we have video of them responding. It's difficult to tell what they're doing back there.

What would it look like if you couldn't see him and them? What would they be doing to stem the bleeding that you would be able to tell from above the table? Would you see them reaching, repositioning him? Yeah, probably because they're seeing. What you're seeing is because his heart's maybe still beating at this point. Don't know, all right. Might have agonal, agonal respirations, which. It's just kind of this, you know, that kind of shallow thing that's going on.

Life is ebbing away. When you see that what appears to be blood issuing forth from the defect, that's not going to last very long. If the heart is still pumping, because these are major, major vessels in here. And they have a tremendous amount of pressure, particularly the carotid. If it clip the carotid with the heart, you know, pumping away like this, It's, you know, and we see this with like bloodstain analysis. You know, like we call it arterial spray, for instance. Like if you have somebody that has their throat cut and it clips, clips an artery.

You'll see it. Did you see spray in that video? No, I just saw kind of a flow at that point, but it's really hard to make out. Looks like someone just poked a hole in the bottom of a gallon jug. Yeah. It just sort of poured out. It almost looks. it almost looks like Venus blood.

So what does that tell you? I'm sorry, Venus like the jugular pain. Not the planet. Yeah. I mean, that's where my head was going to go to Jersey. Yeah. But what does that tell you that it just, it looked like it more just dumped out? Yeah.

And you might have multiple vessel. You have to in this area because it's so, it's so complex in here. Whether you're going to have multiple, multiple structures that are clipped in here because it's so tightly. It's like if you ever go into a building, and I'm getting in trouble for this, but you see like cable that's being run through the wall, you know, and you get into it, if you kind of compare that to vessel structures like that, you go into one, you're going to clip other things, and it's so very delicate. And if we have a fragmenting round even more so on, particularly when you get,

because not only do you have these vessels here, you actually have, A blood supply that's very delicate as well. There is a vertebral artery back here too that is deadly. Very, very deadly. Like when people have some kind of neck injury, it's not just the spinal cord that will be damaged. If you fracture a vertebral body back here, that bone becomes,

I've cut myself on bone before in the autopsy room. It'll pass right through your gloves. Done it a number of times. And it's sharp. I mean, you know, our ancestors made weapons out of them. But what do you? So it'll actually, that vessel could be clipped as well. But the fact that it just poured instead of spurted.

Yeah. What do you, what conclusion? Well, just again, viewing this image and it's limited. It's very, very limited. It's not like we've got a tight, high-deaf shot. it looks like Venus flow to me. It just does because it just comes out. It's not like doing this.

So talk to me about the anatomy of where those two are located. Is one in front of the other as you face the, say you're standing in Charlie? You have the external, well, you have the external carotid that's right here. And that's the arterial blood. Yeah, that's arterial blood. So are they laying like this? Yeah, kind of opposing like this. But is one in front of the other as the other?

as the, yeah, yeah. Which one's in front? It's the carotid. Okay. Right here. And so it's going to pass through, pass through and clip. And it can clip both of them. It'll create a defect in both of those,

not to mention all the other little arterial and venous supplies that are branching off of it. So tracking down, of course, the carotid splits down and goes into like the subclave right here, which runs right beneath the collar, bone and it branches off very highly complex and again that's why I was saying there's so much damage that can be done in this particular area so much damage that can be done in this particular area that even if you had a team of surgeons standing there it would be very very but when you say you see what you perceive as primarily Venus blood yeah is it

Is it possible the venous blood is of a higher volume relative to the total? Or is it that you think it may not have arterial blood at all? Why does it look that way to you? I don't know. I couldn't say. I couldn't say. So just going off what we can see here, obviously we have the main story they've told us, like we said, the beginning 138 yards away, 30 aught sex, Tyler Robinson shoots it.

When you see a wound like this, though, could you see something like that occurring from something that's not a bullet? I don't know. I'd have to, I would have to have an idea of what that would be. I mean, is it something that's propelled through the air and driven that creates that? And again, I say shape, I can't fully appreciate the shape because it's at such a grand distance. I know that it's not a massive open area like this. It's not like something that has exploded in the sense of like, I'd keep going back to Kennedy, but with, Well, that's your case. Yeah.

Go back there. I wish it had been my case. Yeah. It would have been handled a different. You'd be dead, but I probably would be. You don't have this explosive event like that. This is a concentrated area. So if you're asking me to speculate on what else could cause this, I really couldn't.

It has to be something that's dense enough that would maintain its physical characteristics in order to create a defect that you're going to have blood. pouring from it. Initially, when people watched it, they all assumed it was an exit wound. I mean, the first day, everyone was like, that looks like an exit wound because it was so big. When you first see it before the blood starts pouring out, you see a, I mean, it's hard to tell on a two-dimensional video, but it looks like it's the size of a nickel or larger, which is a lot larger than a typical entry wound. Is it possible that that is blood coming out and nothing had gone in, meaning there's some

action on his body that caused it to erupt through the skin? I can't, to my way, to think nothing comes to mind right now that would explain. That's where I am. Yeah. I mean, I just figured I'd ask you the expert. No, no, no, no. I mean, and nothing, you know, nothing comes to mind that, you know,

where I'm thinking about, that it could be, you could have something that would produce that kind of insult. And I'm sure that there are a lot of people that have speculation about that. So Martinson's original thought where he was talking about it was a shot from somewhere else. in that situation to go back what you were saying, just to set the standard here, if it is another type of weapon, or another type of gun that fired around,

you'd still, would it matter what kind of bullet or what kind of gun to be able to see that same kind of spinning cycle you were describing with the bullet to be able to examine the wound and figure out the entry point? No, no, no, no. The abrasion collar that I was referred to earlier, it's going to look, you'll still see it. Okay.

Would you see that? You'd see it with a 22 round. I guess it would depend what another kind of weapon would be. But are there other things that aren't guns where you would see a similar behavior cylindrically? That's not a word, but you know what I mean? No, I know what you're saying. Yeah, that would cavitate through that area and create that.

Not that I could think of that's not, you're talking about something, just so that I'm clear, you're talking about something that is being projected. Sure. Okay. So I know that's kind of obvious, but I just have to ask. ask that question. So you're talking about something as being projected. Not in my experience that I've seen. You know, if you're thinking some kind of air-driven thing or something else that's been discharged

through the air that could stay on that trajectory and strike and be lethal, nothing comes to mind for me. Okay. Real quick, I have to go to the bathroom, but this is a good point. when we're while we're away can we get video of the immediate aftermath like the crowd right there video uh the video of the guy removing the camera cartridges as well the SD cards and then also video of them carrying his body to the truck and we'll have that queued up ready to roll and we'll go to the next steps of it all right we'll be right back all right we're back so barron you were

just saying something off air to go back around to some of the sound conversation, the dynamics of that that we were talking about earlier? Yeah, when he was talking about sound, he said one of the first things he would do as an investigator show up and ask people what they heard. And we ran a whole montage of people, witnesses. He won't you to slide that way a little bit. Oh, I'm sorry. He ran a whole montage of witnesses that were on camera and they all said they heard a firework or a firecracker, a pop. I talked to a student at UVU the other day, and I asked him the same question. What did you hear? What did it sound like? And he said, honestly, he sounded like a balloon popped. And I was like, well, where were you? And he said, I was 10 feet to Charlie's left. He said,

I was like two or three rows up, maybe 15 feet. And I said, you didn't hear like a loud boom, like a rifle boom? He said, no. He was over there. He was to Charlie's left. Like to our right. Yeah, to our right. Yeah, to our right looking at him. And he said, I just heard a, a, a, pop? I said, did you hear like a boom, boom? You know, like something you'll hear a, if you're downrange, you'll hear the crack, and then you'll hear the boom behind it. And he said, no, there was no second sound. It was just a loud pop, like a balloon. And all the different people that said they thought someone was shooting off a firework or a firecracker. Is that what you would expect with a 30 out six? Yeah. Oh, okay, with a 30 out six. Well, again, it all depends on where you're

position relative to it. Okay. And where the shooter, if it is someone shooting a 30 out six, where they are positioned relative to the rest of the crowd. I'd be very curious if a, because, you know, there's, there have been cases out there where they have audio people that actually come in and do audio mapping, you know, of cases like this. Fed's done it before, you know, what could you hear?

And another thing that there's so many. There's so many dynamics that can impact the way you hear things at a scene. In this case, if you've got somebody who's in an elevated position, how is that sound going to disperse into the air as opposed to being flat on a flat range if you're firing a rifle where you can hear the concussion of it, you know, kind of traveling out at that moment's time. So it's it, and this is such an odd setup. Again, I got to tell you all, if it's,

If I was, and I'm not, never want to be, but just, you know, and everybody can be Monday morning quarterback. This is not the position. I would want my guy in because it is a bowl. I mean, it's a death trap. Oh, yeah. He's looking up at the watchtower. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's a horrible, horrible circumstance to be in.

You're not alone in that because most of his people that have gone on the record said when he walked in, they were like, I don't like all these roofs up here. No, and why in the hell they? You don't have people up there, you know, walking about and doing, and of course, these questions have come up in other cases, you know, relative to Butler and all these sorts of things. Well, speaking of direction of sound, he has a video. This is a video. You can see the people still running away and dispersing. So this was seconds afterwards. Okay.

These people. This is the one you sent him? Yeah, this is the one I just sent him. These people are standing just to position you. Just to position you. Just to position you. These people are standing between the last. Lose Center and the tent.

Gotcha. They are on the, on the, on the ledge directly in front of it. So if, if, if the shot was 138 yards, these people are maybe 20 yards in front of the alleged shot. And so. All right. All right. The shot came from down there. That's insane.

That's insane. Well, I deleted it. Yeah. So the, the alleged shot would have come from behind the perspective. of this camera, they're pointing down towards the tent and saying, this shot came from down there. You know, I, again, there's no one single piece of evidence I look at and say, that was not a 30 out six from the roof. But I see something like that. And those are eyewitnesses. Immediately.

Immediately. I mean, these are basically excited utterances. And they're saying the shot came from down there. Is there a way that I'm really unfamiliar with the science of sound and what it can bounce off of in a situation like this? is there a way that because of the buildings around there and the nature of the fishbowl atmosphere that the sound could have traveled so again you're not you don't know it's coming either so you're reacting to it so you have to try to remember it afterwards but they are instantly recording this which is great because it's their instant memory is there a way that sound could have traveled in

such a way that it reflects off some sort of walling or building that could make it appear like it went from somewhere else it's certainly you know it's certainly something that's uh you have to entertain. Again, I keep going back to Kennedy. And you think about there in the buildings, of course, there in Dealey Plaza that are surrounding that area are a lot higher. And that's going to impact the way that sound is dispersed in this environment, but you still have structures. It's not like you're out on the open prairie here. Okay. So yeah, all of that has to be factored in. Even the people have to be factored in because I see. submit to you that if you have a fixed point of an origin of sound, if you've got nobody down there

and you've got 3,000 people down there, even the presence of human bodies is going to impact the way the sound is going to travel, depending upon where the point of origin is. If it's down the ground, okay, it's going to disperse differently than if it's, you know, superior to everybody else. In my opinion, but what do I know? I'm not a sound engineer. When we brought that up in the break, you also mentioned, though, like the Las Cés Lettras and their pager operation, referring to Massad and like how that would have worked from like, I think you're referring to it. Was that from a sound perspective you were talking about that? No, I was just, no. I was, I was talking about how savage it is. Like when just the, the pagers, you know, when you see, and the one that stands out in my mind

is the guy, I think he's, he looks like he's in a grocery store. I think he's adjacent. like a fruit you know like fruit bins and all that sort of stuff when this thing detonates it's very violent tremendous amount of smoke and all this sort of thing yeah we can't show that thief but we can watch it in here okay so they're in the store I don't know I want to watch it and they cut away oh did they cut away before yeah well no because it gave me a warning before the videos it should I may I clipped it out anyway and they took it out Yeah, for the best. Okay. But you were saying, Joseph? Yeah, it's just, you know, that, just referring to that itself, you know, nothing relative to audio. I was just merely talking about

what a violent, violent event that was, and you can see everybody in that space, and it's a very tight space, you know, reacting to that. And you'll have that kind of concussive event that goes forward in a contained area like that, you know, in the, whatever that is, a bodega or whatever the hell that is when this thing detonates. And it's very impressive, you know, to see it. Just physically viewing it, you can kind of see that cloud and that burst like that. And that guy reacts very violently. That's the victim right there. Yeah, okay. Yeah, you can see him totally. Even the hat, you know the hat flies off all these sorts of things i just thought of this actually because dave we we pulled up a bunch of videos that we're going to be referring to in a few minutes here on the break

there's another one though the side profile of charlie that shows the back of his shirt you're talking about and i believe there's a chain back there as well that lifts up that lifts up as well can we get that from a from a timing perspective and while you're doing that let's talk about one other thing Barron, you have discussed publicly a picture that you are in possession of that you had a chance to show Joseph as well, which I'll let you describe past this, but it at least shows Charlie's body sometime shortly after this. And on the shirt, there is, I think what you described as dead space, meaning like there's blood and then a bunch of space where there's not blood about right. Do you, can you do camera one for this right here? So there's a bunch of space about right here where there's not blood. and then blood up here, blood down here.

Right. And you were, and I was too. What appears to be blood. That's right. He's learning. He's learning. There you go. Gold star, man.

What appears to be blood. But that struck me as weird and it struck you as weird. What about you? No. Well, going back to my example of the self-harm people, you know, with firearms. Unaliving. Thank you. When, and I'm just talking about from that perspective, what we see,

relative to blood deposition. And one of the areas that we kind of dance in in forensics is blood deposition, blood splatter, you know, that sort of thing. So when you'll have somebody that's in a position, and I'm not referring to Charlie here, I'm referring in general, all right? So you can have absent space. And it's a good pickup because it's a question. I've actually got an image that I show in my class of a guy that was in this position.

He's got blood down his legs. He's got blood around his collar. But he laid back on a bed and then there's nothing here. And this is, he bled profusely. All right. But there's that initial blast where it kind of poured, you know, poured onto his legs, poured onto it. But this area was protected.

It had specific margins to it. And you can appreciate that sometimes with blood deposition. And that explains it. It all depends on the attitude, physical attitude of the subject that you're talking about. where they were positioned. And again, people don't think about this. Your clothes move independent of your body. They do not move.

They do not move in concert with your body to the degree that they're like a second skin on your body. They're going to arrange, depending upon how they're physically constructed, how you're dressed. Is it tucked in? Is it out? You know, all these kind of dynamics play into. it.

So it might move in the same direction but the timing may be. Yeah, it's going to be completely different because you've got your body's rotating on one axis and the shirt is not keeping up with it. Okay. Do we have that video, the side profile one? Okay. So again, this is not something we can show on screen, but you guys, if you follow the case, you've probably seen this online.

But let's just play this real quick just for us in here. So this is at the point of impact. You can see obviously the back of his head. the back of his head where his hair meets the neck, totally shus position on the shock of entry. The shirt almost in concert on the frame changes positions too, but it changes at the top. So like if I'm looking at the back, yes, there's movement in where the shirt is on the upper back. But when I look up at where the trap meets the neck, it moves profusely right there in, I'm going to say, eyeballing at about a 25 degree upwards direction.

So seeing as the bullet is fired from technically above him at 138 yards, as they say, is that strange that it would, that the neck and shirt are moving almost like in an upward direction like that as opposed to online? Yeah, I couldn't say because of the dynamicism of this. And that shirt is also anchored in the back where he's leaning back like this. Do you see that? So it's anchored. It's kind of held in that position.

It really doesn't change position there. So how is that energy going to transfer about or how is it going to translate in appearance to the cloth or the fabric of the shirt as this round is allegedly striking the body? I find this shot tickly. Let me rephrase that. I find this imagery particularly fascinating because of what you're seeing relative to the anatomical changes. The anatomical changes. Yeah. Well, you can see the neck actually protrudes a bit there, not a bit significantly.

It pulls away posterior right. You can see even the hairline changes there. How does that not have an exit wound if it changes that profusely? I have no idea. The energy transfer, if it did in fact, you know, as Barron pointed out earlier, which is fascinating relative to what they're saying about. C2 through C7? Seven.

Yeah. An incredible level of violence, internal violence there. And the skin is reacting to that wave of energy that's going through there. And Lord only knows, I would love to know to what degree. Well, first off, specifically, what was, what vertebral body was actually impacted. like specifically. Because you can get this kind of peripheral fracturing that takes place because of a concussive event, you know, where you'll get these little hairline fractures and all

that. But which vertebral body did it actually slam into if that's what they're saying, you know, with C2 or C7. And how is that affecting externally the skin there? And the hair itself is standing up. Yeah. It looks like it's being blown. It does.

It really does. Like it looks like a rush of air is driving the back of his hair on. Yes, it does. Yes, it does. And the skin actually billows as well. You can see it. What do you mean by billows? Well, the diameter of the neck, of the neck, if you go inferior to the right ear, okay, and then posterior downward like this, the elasticity.

The elasticity of skin is always fascinated me relative to. things I've seen happen to human bodies, how it'll extend and then it'll retract again after this has happened. You've got a lot of things that are going on internally, all of the muscular structures that are in there, the fascia that even connects the skin to the muscle. If you don't know what fascia is, if you've ever had a pork roast, it's that thin white membrane. you know, it's on the surface of, you know, like pork roast or beef roast or whatever it is, that, you know, you kind of have to strip it off, that sort of thing. The fascia is even impacted and affected, and it anchors, you know, it anchors our skin in place, right?

Over the surface, you know, you've got the dermis and then you've got subcufat and then the fasces beneath that, it kind of lays over the musculature back there. You were talking about as traps right there. Right. Yeah. Anything else there, Barron? You want clarify? The necklace, does that, does a necklace snapping?

Brother, I'm sorry, I cannot, my eyes are so bad. I cannot even see. Is there any way you could expand that for me because I can't appreciate? Yeah, so you'll see a flash right above his shirt over his right trap right there. Okay. So his necklace. It's got a wave in it. Well, it snapped.

Yeah. It snapped. It's a very hard. Yeah. Yeah. You can kind of see it right over the front of his neck. But like between his neck and. between his collar and his chin, you can see the neck.

And the necklace then wraps in the succeeding frames all the way around. So it obviously broke. Yeah. Is that something you see consistently with people wearing necklaces? They're shot in the neck. And it has. Again, it all depends on the caliber of the necklace. I've had a lot of cases involving people wearing very heavy chains over the course of my career.

and the narrow the diameter or the caliber of the metal, they become more fragile or more susceptible to an impact. Most of the time when I see them, though, when I've seen them, the thing is bent and twisted, and that's because a round passed through the necklace as opposed to, or maybe a fragment of a round, or if a round is passing through like what we refer to as an intermediate target. Like if you have rounds that come through a wall, which happens frequently, you know,

particularly with high-powered weapons, you know, AK-47s, those things, these sorts of things that have this tremendous muzzle velocity. You can still retain enough energy that, you know, you'll have necklaces broken. I've seen that happen. But from a direct impact? Yeah, generally from a direct. I've never seen it like in a concussive. I'm not saying it couldn't happen.

Right. It's very well possible. But from a concussive event, you know, I don't think I've ever seen one snap. Yeah, it looks like it snapped down by, you know, it had a charm on it that was hanging down by his sternum. So he's pointing at right, camera one. I'm going to do. Barron's pointing right here. It's just below where his camera is.

So I just want to point that out. You're pointing right here. Right there, yeah. So he had a cross charm that was hanging there. And it looks like that's where it broke. And it's stumped a lot of people because they say, how do you take a round of the neck? And then your necklace breaks in the middle of your chest and then slings over your head. So I figured I'd ask you since I had you here.

Did we know that I'm assuming they collected that necklace? They did not. They did not? Erica Kirk is currently wearing it, a repaired version of it. Lovely. They did not collect it. That was actually in the Brian Harpole, Sean Ryan interview. Or no, maybe that was Frank Turrick that talked about finding it.

Is that the pastor guy? Yeah. Erica apparently was calling asking about the necklace. Nobody knew why. Nobody I knew identified a necklace with Charlie, as that was like the identifying characteristic of Charlie. Maybe a microphone, but on a necklace. That's one of the major problems I have with high-profile cases,

is that, and again, I'll go back and return to what I said earlier. When you start to treat, when you start to treat cases differently, than other cases. That's problematic. Because from an evidentiary standpoint, the necklace has value. Because if it broke, guess who I want to take a look at it?

I want toolmark people to take a look at it. The toolmark people with the crime lab. I want them to see it. I want them to see, hide the same fracture. Give me your opinion. Because again, ruling in, ruling out, you know,

no, I'm not going to give a necklace back to somebody that was around neck of an individual that has been publicly executed? No. Is you out of your mind? How about the mic? She's got the mic. She's got the mic in a, like a fucking Lombardi trophy in some glass box that she takes

to events that you pay 10,000 bucks a fucking plate to donate. And it's still got the blood on it, by the way. But like, don't you think that should probably be in the chain of? Everything there. Thank you. Thanks for playing that up. evidentiary, you're going to get me spun up now. Please.

Everything there. Everything there has evidentiary value. That chair is particularly, has particular value. Oh, I didn't even think of that. You're talking about the chair that Terrell Farms were stood in to get the camera? Well, I mean, people are going to do what they do in the immediate. Yeah. I don't necessarily.

What's the evidentiary value of the chair? Oh, well, I'll tell you specifically. Joseph, not to direct here a little bit, but when you're talking, just a little bit more on an angle, just so people here can kind of see it. How's that? Is that better? Okay. I'm sorry, I've got to... You're doing great. I've got to direct my eyes. I'm going to look at you. Okay. No, no, I want you to look at Barron, but just like keep it where you're kind of like in between us, that kind of thing. I want to tell you. Look at deep. I love your haircut. I love your haircut, by the way, too. It looks good, man. Thank you. You got a haircut. You got a haircut. I didn't you? No. No, I just thought yesterday. I forgot to talk behind my ears. I was a retard. It's okay. It's a bad word.

Okay, so. Mark it. He's learning. So that chair has specific value. Do you know why? No. Okay. Think about how we're sitting right now.

Everybody at home, think about how you're sitting. Okay. The elevation that you're talking about, the position of the body. Of his body comes into play here. And that's significant. because the platform on which that chair is positioned should have been assessed without him in it in that position or wherever they found it because you can never like let's say the chair got kicked aside or kicked away it did you cannot go back and place it in the exact position

however there's an accounting that has to take place with that specific chair because even if that chair came off the line at the manufacturer with a hundred other chairs. That chair is unique to itself. The measurement from the rear of the legs to the back back here. And how does his body fit into that chair? What position is he in? Because, you know, we're talking here. One of the big questions here is trajectory, right? You know, we're talking about, is it a flat trajectory? Is it an elevated position? Whatever it is, that chair has significant value. And it can have evidence on it as well. Blood deposition. These sorts of We don't know what's on the chair.

You know, for all I know, somebody's, I don't know where it is now. I have no idea. I don't know if it's been, you know, if you go to a university, I can go to my university. And we've got stacks of chairs everywhere. They just take the chair and stack it back up or did the state police or whoever it was, did they collect that chair? That's his chair. Okay.

Well, and did they. And his platform? Yeah. And did they collect it and did they hold on to it or did it go back into the rotation? Or be thrown away. Yeah. And that's a problem. So who would that fall on?

Would that fall on? The police? Oh, hell yeah. The people actually examining the crime scene? Yeah. Once people are absent this scene, get your ass out of there. And I'm referring to any civilians that are around there. Because if you're not part of the investigative team, you're a civilian.

Period. End of paragraph. All of that stuff should have been secured at that particular time. And this is not me Monday morning quarterbacking. This is baseline stuff. This is like ground, like this is something that you would teach a freshman class in Forensic Science 101. So what would it tell you if there was no chair and no platform and everything had been removed? Well, it's going to tell me that any kind of measurements that you take where you're trying to pull trajectories, your data is potentially skewed.

Yeah, you're good. I have coffee for you right there. Do you've got it? Look at that. He's on it, man. He just floats in and out of it. That's it. So, all right, so chair is a problem. Also, this is not an adjustable chair as far as I can tell. It looks like a wireframe kind of. Right.

So it's a static chair. Imagine if they put that back in rotation. Jesus Christ, that would be insane. I think it's more likely it was thrown away, but maybe the police have it. I don't know. We don't know. No, I hope they do. And all of the surface area there,

deep, is there any way you can, there's one, yeah, hold it right there if you can't, if you don't mind. just freeze it right there. Actually, we can put that on screen too because there's no bullet right now. YouTube, there's no bullet, no blood, no anything. We're in concert. He's not pressing play on the video. Thank you.

Okay. So do you see the, and forgive me, Baron, because I don't know. What's the composition of the surface that this thing is contained on? It's a carpeted, indoor, outdoor kind of. So it was a grass base. and then there was a platform, an elevated platform. That's what I'm referring to right here. The surface of this platform.

What is that made out of? It was a plastic platform with a, I believe, a metal exterior around it and the metal legs that went down. So all of that surface surrounding that chair moving to his left, Ford, any of that area right there has value to it because you've got blood deposition there. Now you say, well, why is that important? Well, it's very important because you want to demonstrate, you want to retain that from an evidentiary standpoint to,

you can not go, people ask this question frequently when you have like a really bloody scene. They want to know if you can approximate the volume of blood that will spill. You can't. That's an empirical impossibility. But you can demonstrate it visually to show where the deposition is. And this is not a, sightseeing tour. This is something that you hold on to and you want to hold on to everything.

This is something significant. This is where a homicide and we can all agree it's a homicide. This is where a homicide took place. If it was on a carpeted surface in an apartment, I want that section of carpet. I've gone into places where we've completely pulled up linoleum, all right? I know I have colleagues that have pulled up ceramic tile before and held onto it. It's a pretty significant piece of information here that you're retaining. And so that in and of itself is important, but also the structure of this platform along with the chair, the height of the platform, the underlying ground, the topography of it. Well, they dug that up and paved up. Right. Yeah. And so, no, I'm just saying that.

I wouldn't even go in there yet. No, no, no, forgive me. But no, I'm just saying that in totality, in totality, when they started working the scene, they didn't have anybody hooked up on charges yet. Everything there has value to it. Every single thing. I'm not saying that you go out and you need to keep those, the railing that's keeping everybody back. You don't want that, but I'll tell you, I won't.

The closest radius. I want the top, I want that canopy. I want to see this. I want to know if there's blood. I want to know if there's blood deposition up there. I want to know. I've got anything above him. Could that rule out, could all of that that you just described,

rule out the explosive microphone theory or any of the other theories? Because, you know, if you said the shirt, you might be able to test rule out. What about the chair? What about the platform you're sitting on? Perhaps. Yeah, I suppose that it could because with an explosive event, you're going to have a residue that, and, you know, when an explosive event takes place, you know how I talked about the powder a little while ago?

the umberk and it acts like talcum powder it's a very violent event in the immediate but you've got this particulate matter that kind of showers down on everything it's not it's because a lot of stuff is it has no aerodynamic uh characteristics or uh not no but it limited thank you very much it has limited aerodynamic uh characteristics and so gravity you know it's just going to fall and it's going to settle. And so you want to test these areas. If you look at, you know, even, you know, even overseas when there's been explosive events, you know, just with our troopers that have been, you know, deployed all over the world, when they, you know, they have teams that go out there and they do post-blast assessments relative to all this. You had it with Boston Marathon, you know,

all these things you can go out and you can do these samplings of everything. Well, if that's something that people are thinking about and I don't know that they were thinking, about this at the time. You could either rule it in, rule it out, certainly. But for my purposes, just from the deposition that appears to be gunshot related, I'm going to want to know about the impact, the surrounding area, how blood is deposited. I'm going to want to see that chair, his clothes, and not just the shirt. I'm going to see the pants as well, his shoes, his socks, anything that's on him. So would it, and again, I asked this earlier, would it fall below the standard in your opinion if the chair, the platform, and all this isn't preserved,

and it was just cleaned off and thrown away or put back in rotation? Way below the standard, yes. And where would it be stored, just from a layman's perspective? In an evidence room somewhere. And again, it all depends on who's processing. So anything you identify, anything you identify as evidence, you don't think should have been turned back over to TPSA to store? Hell no.

Okay. No. Are they an investigative agency? Do they have prosecutorial powers? You know, because we're talking about it. Again, let's all kind of come back. I'm not being smartest. No, I know.

I know. Let's all come back. Center mass here. It's a homicide investigation. It should not be treated any differently than any other homicide investigation out there, period, end of paragraph. Now, here's one thing about this. And we mentioned this earlier, but now you're really bringing into context when you talk about all the different pieces here and things you would have wanted in a perfect world preserved or not touched at the time. A lot of homicide, most homicides that occur, you know, it's in a more secluded place, a lot of them.

Or at the very least, it's not in front of 2,000 people. Yeah, you don't have an audience. You don't have an audience like that. So in this case, you have a public event, a major speaker, chaos immediately ensuing. So naturally, there's going to be some things that are not treated perfectly well right away just because of the cascading effect of so many people there. That said, once his body, and I'll come back to that video with Karen into the truck thief in a little bit, But once his body is taken out of there and people begin to disperse a little bit and leave, let's start with the video that we have deep of the camera guy, removing the camera SD cards that

were behind Charlie right here. Is this the kind of situation where there should be cops trained to be way closer to the perimeter number one and number two, not letting anyone get into a space like this? An ideal world, yeah. But if you're talking about campus police that are there that have limited manpower, I would imagine at this point in, Barron, correct me, please, if I'm wrong here. I'm assuming that there are no other law enforcement assets around this area other than campus police. So not exactly. The guy in the blue shirt in the background and there's another guy in a red hat that keep ducking in and out.

Those are officers from other agencies. So we're playing close. This guy back there in the far back. Right. So for them, they understand at this point. Now, I'm thinking about crowd control and all this stuff. Like your boy that just walked into frame there, it's pouring water over the back of his neck or whatever the hell he was doing.

He doesn't need to be in that space, period. And I don't know whether he's law enforcement. I know for a fact the other two are. This is nine minutes later, by the way. He doesn't need to be there, period. Yeah. That guy doesn't, nobody needs to be within that area because I can, the thing about, okay, here's the thing about crime scenes and we teach this over and over again. You can always set your perimeter up at a very distal, distal point, okay, all the way around, right?

You can, first off, you can do that. And then you can contract it where you're bringing it back to center. However. So get back, get back, get back. get back. As far you want as many people away and you're going to cordon that entire area off. When you run into trouble is when you only focus on that and you, you know, you set your tape up or whatever it is. You create this boundary in that little area.

Well, you know, as an attorney, if I go back and I move that tape, guess what happens? You can say, well, this was not controlled out here. That's right. This has been contaminated. you know, at this point in time. So you always start big and then you contract after that. So even though they weren't UVU police, the fact that their uniform,

plane clothes officers carrying badges and guns, they know that this crime scene should be sort of sacrosanct in this moment. Yeah, I teach at the State Police Academy in Alabama. That's basic training for Academy graduates that if they're, you know, post-certified police officers, state of Utah, which I'm, again, I'm assuming they are, they know that that's a critical area right there. You don't want to let anybody into that area specifically. But even though he's an employee,

those people up on that amphitheater area. In the back. In the back. And I'm just throwing this out there just for consideration in an ideal world. And again, giving them a little bit of grace, because they ain't got a lot of manpower. I think that we can both, we can all acknowledge that, Okay. Because there's some things that are just, it's not possible to facilitate. However, the stands up there, you see, I don't care if you left your book bag, your phone, whatever it is, you ain't getting back in there, period. Because I don't know what value any of that stuff.

Nobody knows what value it has at that critical moment in time. You're pushing everybody back. You're locking it down, and you're going to keep it locked down. So you think having an employer. milling around the area, the immediate adjacent area in Terrell Farms was his name. But you think that falls below the standard? Yes, it is. Okay.

Yeah, they should, you know, you get out of here. Unless he is a principal witness at that point in time and they need to speak with him, he still shouldn't be right there. You, come here. You stand right here. Do not move from the spot. Yeah. Don't walk around.

Don't pour water. Don't pour water on the surface, please. The crime scene. I beg you. That's a no-go. So you don't want to, because you're introducing something into this now, and understand how I'm using this word. This is a pristine crime scene at this point, time, or should be.

It's pristine in the sense that it's untouched at this point. It has not been processed. You want to take any element that you possibly can away from this. It's going to impact how. any of the structures are set up or were left behind or whatever the case might be. Well, I'll proffer that the guy walking around talking to those two cops, grab the chair, set it up under the camera, took the cameras down, moved them, set them on the table, removed some object from it.

We believe it's the SD card. That's his story. Remove something from the camera and then walks off. Does that fall below the standard and allow that to happen? Can I play that on a loop? yeah that's I just wanted that on the record yeah that's

on the record oh my god yeah yeah that that would be below record below the standard yeah is there any if you were the responding official on this scene and you got here right now

it's nine minutes afterwards and it's still somewhat pristine minus water boy over there once you begin to examine all the things you just walked us through the chair the the ceiling the canopy above him, the splatter, the area around it. And let's say someone also shows you the video. So you've now seen that and you know the shot came from up there. As you are looking out

from the vantage point of Charlie, what are you most looking for at that time? Like what are the key elements that you want to take note of to try to solve where this may have come from? I'm going to start concentrically and then work eccentricly. So I'm going to look at those things in my immediate area and then extend out my field. the vision incrementally. And again, in a perfect, in a perfect world, if I were like the sole guy that was there, I'd be saying send every post-certified officer that you have available to my location. We've got to lock this thing down.

As a matter of fact, if there is currently a police academy class in session with cadets, send them out here, we'll direct them to set up a perimeter and face outward and don't let anybody through. Was there ever a point where something like that happened too late, you know, 40 minutes later or something like that? They did establish a pretty good perimeter around the top of the amphitheater, like the last concrete step. That's a great spot to have it. But it was 20 plus minutes after. Well, again, going to playing devil, I don't know if I'm playing devil's advocate. It's just practicality. I've been, you know, I've, I've been out on cases before where, I'm sorry, guys, there's some kind of court or something here. There we go. I hope I didn't

unplug anything. Where we just, we didn't have the ability, you know, to cover an, and, you know, and who, nobody anticipates. You can go through all of the, you know, through all of the emergency management stuff that they send you through, where you have critical, critical events, and you have mass casual events and you can, you know, tabletop it is what they call. You know, you go in and you tabletop all this stuff. But until it actually happens, you don't know how it's going to, you know, how can you plan for this scenario? Well, you always try to plan for the very worst that you possibly can. It's almost like, you know, containment where you can always contract it. But if you, if you ain't got the warm bodies, you ain't got the warm bodies. Do you consider the SUV they took

come out in as a crime scene? Probably. Is there valuable information you could glean from accessing that SUV? Again, back to Kennedy. It's not the same as the Kennedy limousine because that's where a violent act took place. It has value to me in that if I'm a law enforcement or crime scene person, I don't know any of these people in his group.

I don't know them. and if I'm, you know, working the scene, if I'm involved in this, my name's going on in the report, I'd want to hold on to it until, you know, let me see the vehicle. You know, what did you do? What did you do? What did you do? Where were you seated? Where were you seated?

What did you say? What were your actions? Did you remove anything? Is there anything we should be looking for in here? Now is the time to tell me right now because I don't want to get this thing and find something on the floor that you didn't tell us about. So there's a come to Jesus moment, you know, where you're talking to everybody, tell us what you did. And then it's at that point in time that they can either choose to retain it or, you know, release it. But I'd have to, there's going to be photos taken.

There's going to be photos taken of this thing to document it. If they cut it loose and send it back to from once it came at that point in time, you document, document, you're never going to go wrong if you document everything. So we mentioned the necklace. you thought should have been retained. What about that lapel mic he was wearing? Yes, lapel mic. Should be an evidence? Anything on his body?

Okay. It's a corpus delecti, man. I mean, it's the body of the crime. It is how in the hell they don't have that mic? I don't know. And why they don't have that necklace, I don't know. I'm, I need it. Yeah.

I'm sorry for your loss. I need it. I mean, they're a hundred bucks. Go buy another one. I couldn't remember. I couldn't remember yesterday. Was it Parkland you were talking about where the jury got to go back and visit and they had preserved the area? Yeah, Parkland High School, not Parkland Hospital.

Right, right, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's funny. That's a similar. That's a little bit of a lot. It is, isn't it? Wow. Wow. No, yeah.

It's not 33 years later at least, but still. No, yeah. And look, guys, I know, again, back to practicality here, okay? Parkland High School, for those that don't remember, please look it up because it was a huge, just tragic event, mass killing in that school. That's a standalone structure where those events in that place were contained, okay? You know, you ask anybody that works in forensics crime scene, most of them are going to say, I would, I take, you know, 10 outdoors, I mean,

indoor scenes as opposed to one outdoor scene because outdoor scenes are almost impossible to secure for a protracted period of time. But with Parkland, going back to that, and again, Idaho comes in here too because I've had my detractors on this. I don't really care. Because, you know, with Idaho,

I was so averse to them tearing down. Co-burger. Co-burger. How long did they leave it up for they toward now? A couple months, I think. Yeah, a few months. And the university bought it, and it was hurting people's feelings. So they had to take it down even before the thing had gone to trial.

He's upset about two months or three months, though, as opposed to two days. You know, they paved over the crime scene here in five days, right? Yeah, that would really... Does that fall below the standard? Ask and answer. Yeah. Yeah, actually. For me, and again, we can get into this.

I have an idea as to how they probably documented the scene out there. How would they do it? Well, I think that probably a Fero system, F-A-R-O, is going to be in play here, which is a device that has been used with great success. It's, you know, whereas in the past we would have taken hundreds of, you know, images, right, from various perspectives. You just kind of follow the compass and you take macro and intermediate range and you take micro and all the sorts of things. We can't even begin to touch as mere mortals what a pharaoh system can do.

Thousands and thousands of images. You've got this thing that's set up on a stand. It's spinning. It's got a mirror that's spinning in an opposite direction. And it's just snapping perspectives all over the place. I mean, just voluminous. You think they, do you think they use that? Yeah, I think that every state police agency has that technology now.

And you can, you'd be surprised, here you go, you'd be surprised how quickly they can document, they can pull trajectories with this. This now, you know, we used to use, years ago, you used to use something called Total Station. And Total Station, it kind of arose out of the need to document motor vehicle accidents, actually. and because it's so dynamic, right? And you want all. Pharaoh now is a game changer relative to documenting the scene and all of different perspectives.

Like for instance, if you've, one of the examples that's cited, for instance, is that you can take like a trajectory rod if you have a bullet hole and a wall and it's got these, you can take the trajectory rod and it's got these two balls on it, right? You insert it into the wall. right, where the defect and bullet defect is.

This thing's taking pictures. It's pulling trajectories from all these different perspectives all over the place. And it turns it into this huge 3D model so that when you take this thing in the court, you're kind of looking around. You're there. Right. So going back to the chair. Chair's not in place. Right.

Don't know where the chair is. Platform's gone. Or it's been altered in some way. And if you have to go back out and do something else and you've taken, just so I get this figure right, I don't want to misspeat. 10 inches of soil. That's what I hear. Eight to 10 is the generally accepted.

And then you're going to pave over to put pavers down. And then put big planters on top of the pavers. Yeah. So you've changed the topography of the surface. Oh, yeah. And I'm so glad you use the term topography there because you truly, people don't appreciate the role. Right. You know, like if you're out in your yard, you know, most people don't think about, well, you know, they look at their lawn.

They might think it's flats really not. Right. It's rolling. It really is. And the slightest, and plus, when you're talking about pulling a trajectory on a shot that is allegedly at this distance, the slightest deviation from that at all is going to skew your data. So I hope that they got this out there. One other thing, I apologize, I don't mean to be all overboard.

You guys kind of got my wheels turning here. No, no, no, I'm just, if I could go back to, and we haven't, well, I guess we kind of have, but when you think about the dimensions of Charlie Kirk as a person, right? So I'm talking about physical dimension. So if he's in a seated position, one of the measurements I'm going to want at autopsy is I'm going to want from the top of his head, from the crown, all the way down to his buttocks. Okay, so we think about how we're positioned in chairs right now, right? Well, this is kind of, this is our height right now, right? Our height is not as we're standing now. Our height is this position.

So, yeah, exactly. And then I have to account for these metal legs. Also, how much do you weigh? So, and if you look at that chair, that chair's not like... It's got a little flex. It does. So it's going to, it's not tubular. I guess it's tubular.

I don't really know how to describe it. But that's not my bailiwick, but the chair is going to bend some. So I'm going to want to try to understand that as well. And you're saying like a tenth of a degree could put someone 20 feet higher in the air or lower. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not a sailor. But if you've got a compass that's not, if you're off one degree, you're going to wind up

a thousand miles in another direction. That's an over the top example. But you know what I'm saying? It's actually even, I would say when you're taking into account a bullet and how far it could have been coming from, it's even more. of a degree of difference because you're also trying to account for where it hit them. Yeah. How it hit them.

Whether or not, you know, how it went in, how it did or it didn't come out. So I think, yeah, the compass is actually even less maybe. Yeah. And I'm just, guys, look, I mean, I'm not, you know, trying to secure anybody here or skewer anybody here or, you know, diminish anybody by their efforts because the police can only do what the police can do at that moment time. And I don't know how long it was before they had robust resources on site, where they're locking everything down and processing the scene.

And this scene would take, it's a scene that would take some time to process. But we do things a lot quicker here in the U.S. Like I travel abroad, I speak to people. people in England and done instruction over there and that sort of thing. And, you know, like I've got friends that formerly worked at Scotland Yard and they would take like a homicide scene and the Brits would, they'd lock down a homicide scene for three or four days and take that much time to process. We don't work like that. Yeah. We're a microwave. We're a microwave group of people, man. Is it because we have better technology or they're just more thorough? No. Well, I think

and again, it all depends on where you are too. If you're in a, if you're in a metropolitan area like this, you know, ain't no ball scurron on me. I'm going to have to go to the next case, right? But if you have the time and you can lock it down, what's the harm in locking it down? Not a lot of murders in Orem, Utah. Yeah.

You know, for a protractive period of time, what's it going to harm, you know, at all? Is it because people are getting offended by seeing a site, you know, on the ground, where something took place? I don't care. I don't care if you're offended by. I don't care if it hurts you.

your feelings. You've got to work the scene and you got to hang on to it. Can we pull up the video we have of them carrying the body to the truck? We just can't show it on the screen obviously, but people out there you're probably seeing on Twitter. There was a, we couldn't find it. Dief and I were looking off camera for a while. There used to be a farther shot that showed like in 60 frames a second from an iPhone, like the full carryout where they're doing it. But this is at least something in slow-mo, so we'll play it for us in here. So you can see it. Again, since you as an investigator would have access to camera angles for something very public like this to review afterwards, what would you be most looking for on how they handled his body to see how it may have changed any of the injuries or affected, I don't know, a wound site?

I'm getting a little above my pay grade here, but you know what I mean? No, no, you're not. No, you're not. Well, first off, I'd want to see what they're doing with the body relative to is treatment going on or an attempt at treatment? No. Or they just, is it a moment of conveyance? Relocation effort. Yeah. And that's, and also has anything been taken away?

Do I have visual evidence of somebody taking clothes off, removing anything, making adjustments? And I know this is kind of morbid. I'd want to see if he, and I don't see it here, but I want to see if he was dropped, because that does happen, lots of times. I want to see if I have a good perspective, I want to see if he's banged in to anything. His head was, I can remember the other video, which we can't see right here right now, but his head was hanging and bouncing around like in the air. In the air.

Yeah. So that's not as troubling to me as, say, for instance, if when you're, and this just happens. I don't know that people realize this, but, you know, individuals, bodies, they get banged against things. Well, he did fall out of the chair. Yeah, yeah, he did, but I'm saying in the removal process itself and getting him into the vehicle, I want to know what they did with him during that period of time. How did you get him secured? And also, who got into that space physically with him was his head cradled in somebody's lap like this

on the other side of the vehicle, was somebody elevating his feet? What would all that tell you? Well, it would give me an indication as to, were they making an attempt to stem bleeding and to make this a survivable in their mind at this point in time? Because, you know, you can't really predict how anybody's going to react in a situation like this. Nobody. I don't care how many deployments you've had or how many dead bodies you've stood over.

If you're engaged with somebody like this, you personally know them, you don't know how they're going to react at any moment in time to take some kind of heroic measures that could skew your data or could make it give a separate appearance from what you're seeing when you're standing over the body, you know. One of the things Brian Harpole mentioned on one of the podcasts was opening the wound to stick stuff in it. Does that change the forensic examination at the medical examiner's office or the ability to preserve evidence in a way that we can?

What in the hell do you stick in there? Was it his dirty little finger? or was it a probe, was it a pen? Well, he claims gauze, but I'm assuming he's sticking the gauze in with his finger. Yeah. So if you're applying, if you're applying gauze in there, again, I'd mention the four by four a little while ago. You're kind of packing the injury, which, you know, medical people do that themselves. They're generally more to have a great grasp of the anatomy there.

And they also know how bodies react to specific types of trauma. You've got to do what you've got to do. So I'd want to know what steps he had taken. What was it he had packed the area with? Was the packing left in place? Was it removed when you got him to the hospital? I can only imagine that anything that was stuck in there would now have been removed by the person doing the assessment because you cannot do an assessment through whatever the packing element is.

That would have to be removed. Was there anything from the packing that was left into the defect at all? and what happened to the packing. You know, where did that go? Did you guys just throw it on the floor or is it discarded in the parking lot? Would you want that as evidence? Yeah, I'd want it. Yeah, I'm pretty much going to, you can box check me here.

Anything was it touching him? I'm going to want it. So just to get it on the record. It falls below the standard if they don't have it? Ask an answer. Yeah, fair enough. I feel like that's the 15th time today. No, it's okay.

Can you actually walk? Joseph through Barron, what the story is that Harpal and Turrick have described. I think maybe another guy in the car described as well, but what the consensus story has been of what allegedly happened once they got him into the car to see if there's anything there that could be problematic. Yeah, so it starts at the scene itself. He falls and Brian says he's trying to stem the bleeding there, Brian Harpole. Then they pick him up. Nobody's got a hand on the wound. His wound is actually down. So he's he's injured on the left side and as they're carrying him off, it's, it's, actually no, it's right side down. But they're carrying him off. They don't have any support on his

head. They're not, they're not supporting his neck anyway. No one's applying pressure. There's nothing visible in the pictures that's that's packed in there. Then they carry him to the car. I believe Rick Cutler ran to the other door and got in to be kind of the receiving figure. So that would have put his head, at least on that side of the SUV. They claim, that his feet, he's too long, they couldn't close the door. And so they drove off with the door open. While they're in the car, Brian says he puts 36 feet of gauze into Charlie. 36 feet.

That's what he does. I don't know if he knows what he's saying, but that's what he says. Yeah, I mean, I'm just, forgive me. I'm doing my best rendition, Brian, please, again, no lawsuits. I'm trying to be. Pure spec. It's pure spec. It's not speculation.

I'm trying to be faithful. to a story. But he's packing, packing, packing, wrapping, applying. No, no, let me, okay, just as a little caveat here, if he's absorbing a lot of blood, I can understand 36 feet is robust, okay? Yeah. But if he, if it's not stemming the bleeding, okay, which if we've already talked about the vascular structures in there, if it's not stemming the bleeding,

this thing's going to be super saturated. So yeah, you might, I don't know the nature of this packing, but you might have to tear it, cast that aside, grab more, repack it. It's going to continue to absorb blood. And the further you have to go in this vehicle transporting him, the more time is ticking off the clock. But I'm thinking about it relative to your description of the, I can't remember how you said it, the circumferential ring around it,

the abrasion you compared to an Indian burn, the potential grease. It's not going to affect it. Okay, so that'll all still be there. Not to step on you. Now, even if they have to open it up to get it in there? Yeah, you could still appreciate it. Okay. Now, what about it?

I need you to clarify, open up for me, though. Are they these people open in it or is this a surgeon or a physician that's open in it? I believe I'm accurate saying his assessment, Brian Harpold, the security guy in the car, said that he was having to open it up to access it to get more in there. Okay. Yeah. And again, is he, because to me, if he's absent any kind of tool, this would be him bluntly dissecting this out, literally using his fingers to spread it apart. I don't know that that's what he did, but he's saying open it.

So is he hyper extending? because you can, if you want to observe a wound in a neck in the morgue, for instance, there's a hyper extension you can do. You can pitch the head this way, that way, backwards like this, and you can apply pressure, and you know, you want to kind of hyper-extend. It's like what we do with bodies on autopsy tables. We put the, if everybody's in the block that we use beneath the shoulder blades at autopsies before we open the body, we do that to hyper extend the body so you can see all of the organs. If he's hyper extending, I just want to, I just want to try to understand was this bluntly, you know, are you talking about taking a finger

and running it through there? That's what it sounded like to me. Maybe he was cutting with a knife or a scissors. I don't know. But that's one of the things they said. There was some debate or dispute over whether CPR was attempted towards the end of the car ride. If it was, it was the guy in the far back leaning over leaning over yeah so um but but i find much of their discussion to be less incredible so who knows what actually happened in there yeah and i don't you know i don't know that anybody i don't know we'll see what happens when they get called would that affect the trajectory analysis though if they are shoving 36 feet of gauze in there and opening the wound would you still be able to do like you described the problem track um let me go back now

If when we're talking about when we're talking about the the collar abrasion that I was referring to earlier, you know, the. Yeah. And also the bullet wipe. Remember, we talked about the grease, right, off of the, or dirt. That, when that happens when you have a round impact like that, that is traveling at such a rate that's kind of imprinted in there. Okay. You can still appreciate it. It'd be better if you had it completely intact,

but wishes in one hand and something else in the other see which one fills up first. So it is what it is. You just deal with it. But the critical part to this, and this is where people in the medical legal field come in, does questions have to be asked and answered? Come here. What did you do to the body? What heroic measures did you take?

to save your employer, your friend, or whatever your relationship is. What heroic, and tell me precisely what you did. I don't want to hear it in a secondary interview off of a media outlet somewhere. I want face-to-face deposition. I want you to tell me what you did. And that'll be recorded by an investigator? Yes. Which means that they would present that hypothetically if they did that correctly.

All these guys right here, they're going to be called as witnesses. Right. Every single one of them. And any depositions or statements they took would be presented at trial? Yep. Okay. Every single one of them. I wouldn't go that far. Their out of court statements will not be presented at trial. Yeah, I don't know anything.

They might be brought in for impeachment purposes, but they're not going to introduce them as evidence. Okay. Why wouldn't they do that? I'm not aware. Because they're an out of court statement for the truth of matter asserted. Now, they could find some hearsay exception to that, but generally speaking, a written statement. statement out of court's not going to come in. Okay. All right. So obviously once they take Charlie's body of the hospital, we actually covered on both of our podcast together, the whole like miracle bullet and all that bullshit. So I won't go through that again. But he is pronounced dead. Is that the correct term? There you go by the doctor. Okay. How long do you think that would have taken? How long do you think that would have

taken? Not long. Because this assessment, if what my eyes are telling me, right here, not based upon anything else. If what I'm seeing right here, this would not have lasted very long once you got to the emergency room if it did, in fact, last that long. And I'm talking about from, because, again, time of death is different than time pronouncement. Time pronouncements to a government comment, all right? So when did he physically cease to live? And they're going to determine that in an autopsy based on it?

They could. Or, no, you will never be able to specifically determine that, contrary to what you see on all these television shows. Damn it. I know, right? Failure. What the doctor will do is because an attorney will ask them, if they so choose to ask this. So, Doc, given this injury that you're describing here, how long would he have lived? you know, and the doctor will throw out a number to them based upon, and you know what a lot of this is going to be based upon?

This is kind of an interesting little point. When we get into doing autopsies, did you know that there are cases where we have someone, here's another $10 word for you, exsignates, which means bleed out? Do you know that there are times when we have cases of exanguination where we have a hard time drawing blood? Hmm. Yeah. Like you'll go. Because there's not enough pressure on the system. Right. Well, no, there's just no longer, because there's no pressure at all. You don't have enough blood. We don't have any blood because normally you either go directly into the heart or you go into the aorta, which arches right here. So you go directly in there and draw blood from there. And there's many times where you can't draw any blood. And the doctor, sometimes the doctors will draw a conclusion based upon not being able to,

to draw blood, they'll say, yeah, they exsinguinated. They lost. The term that they love to use is that the volume of blood loss is incompatible with life. It's generally what they will say. And so they'll look at that and they'll say, yeah, we couldn't even draw blood. Now, you can go to peripheral areas like we'll draw it from the femoral artery many times. Where else have we drawn it from? I've done some axillary draws before. But looking at this, you think he, you think as when he arrived the hospital, the doctor looked at him and been like, guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah, probably so. And if if we are to believe what we're hearing about the cervical trauma that he's sustained, and thanks for bringing this up about the spinal cord. I think that just came out Wednesday or Thursday,

so you haven't missed anything. Yeah, the spinal cord obliteration. Yeah. And that really gives you an idea of the extent of the trauma. The spinal cord is fascinating in the sense that it's one of the most difficult anatomical sites to get to. I've been present where we do an entire spinal cord dissection where we remove the entire length. It is one of the most laborious things that you will ever do. What makes it, though?

Because it's encased in the spine. And it's very difficult to get to. because again, I hate to keep using this term, but I have no better term. The vertebral bodies are so robust and they're so odd. Out of all the other pony structures in the body, they have a very unique form to them. You have to be very careful. If they're talking about that you've got spinal, what is it? They said the obliterated vertebra.

Right, right. And then traumatically absent. Trematically absent, which means that if I'm, I'm to interpret that, what I'm hearing, that means that the actual cortex, which looks a lot like the cortex of the brain, because, you know, if you think about, you know, spinal cord looks like a big tail, if you take the brain out and the spinal cord at the same time, it looks like a big tail, looks like an alien creature, you know. That means that the cortex of the spinal cord would be gone. and also the dura, which is the case that surrounds the spinal cord. It's that the brain has a dura kind of floats around the sack. It's washed and cerebral spinal fluid.

That would have to be gone as well. So that's a tremendous amount of trauma. I don't know where else going with that. Sorry. Thanks for the visual. Yeah. Oh, I was asking. How long do you think it took the doctor to make the call?

Not long. Not long. Minutes, hours? No. Minutes. No, it would be minutes. Okay. Yeah.

All right. So whenever Doc makes this call dead, as you've said, many times now, the body now becomes the most important. I mean, from the beginning it was the most important piece of evidence, but now he's officially dead. It is officially evidence. Yep, yep. So I remember when I saw, he was shot approximately 12, 13. p.m. local time on a Wednesday and we know that there was the flight from Utah to Arizona where we see everyone on coming on the tarmac with his casket at around I believe 530 p.m. local time

the next day and within a couple days of the assassination Erica had posted that very odd post of her over the embalmed body of Charlie as they told us and I remember at the time because I remember this phone call with you. Once they had, once the news reports had reported like when the family had time to be with the body and all that, we were able to determine that she was taking that Instagram video somewhere midday on Thursday, meaning approximately in the 24 hour period after Charlie had been killed. And I immediately called you and said, okay, you're telling me that the body of the wildest political assassination in recent memory was already embalmed in a casket prepared with a with with with the suit on and everything and out there for the family to be able to take

their time with it 24 hours later when you need to do the whole autopsy have you know the body transport to where the autopsy needs to happen this is all like probably an overnight kind of thing and then it has to get to that local funeral parlor to be prepared for the family. And again, I called you as someone who knows nothing about the timing of all these things, but you're someone who does. And Baron, you've raised a lot of great questions about this about like what the fuck is going on here. So let's go through this in its entirety. And Baron, maybe you can step in and say the first spots that are a cause of concern to you as to how this could have happened so quickly and turn around like that.

So we have at 7.57 p.m. news footage of him leaving the hospital. Gotcha. Heading to Taylorsville, which is where the state medical examination is. Which is how far away? 30 to 45 minutes. It's traffic.

Yeah. You're taking a line of cars. I don't know how fast they drove. Right, right. Did he leave? Do you know if the body left with an escort? Yes. Like police escort?

Police escort. The medical examiner, the transport company, everybody left at the same time. Yeah. Okay, gotcha. And so I don't know how fast they were going. It would have been, you know, 838-45, we could probably guess when it shows up in Taylor'sville.

That's assuming, you know, they never made an announcement that that is when Charlie's leaving. It's just that's when the motorcade left. Yeah, yeah. I guess it's possible he left earlier. I don't know. So my question is, let's assume eight's right. He's dead. The doctor pronounces him inside an hour, right?

So he arrives at the hospital no later than 1240. let's say 1.30, 140, he's pronounced dead, no doubt. What's happening to his body? Because after that, because Eric O'Kirk says that he was still warm when she viewed the body, and she didn't get there until 4 o'clock. So what's happening in that couple of three hours? So where did she visualize the body in the hospital? Which room? Was he still being held in a treatment room at that point in time? I don't know that that's ever been stated. But she said he was still warm. It's highly irregular to hold a body in a treatment room for three hours.

Where else would he be if not a treatment room? And that would be cold. Yeah. They wouldn't just leave him out on the side. Yeah. I mean, again, unless they're making a special exception here. Okay. So, but that's something that you would want to know the answer to.

Oh, yeah. I want to know what's happened to the body. As a matter of fact, if I'm with the M.E, I don't want any of the staff. members. I don't want anybody touching the body. And I'm I'm rather cold that way. Well, we know the MEs van or truck showed up at like 450. We have news footage of it rolling in. It's possible someone from the M.E's office came in advance of that M.E vehicle. But we know no later than 450. Let me stop you right there real quick. Do we know if this M.E. van, is this a contract livery service or is this an official state medical examiner vehicle?

That vehicle is an official vehicle, but the body was transported by a contractor. A livery service that is contracted by the state to do this. And that's very common. So here's one of the problems that you run into with hospitals many times is that they put a body in a morgue pack, which is like a, well, they can either use a plastic wrapping, which I hate, to wrap a body in. that's called a morgue pack, or they can have their own body bags that they'll use. Generally in hospitals, they're white most of the time, and then they take them back to their cool room, or if they actually have a morgue. Some hospitals don't have morgues.

They have what are called cool rooms, and they pull the temperature down in there, and just for short periods of time, they'll hold the body there. I don't feel particularly comfortable with the fact that they would call, would pronounce death and then leave his body in there for a protracted period of time. Because anybody that studied biology, you know that the longer you leave a body out, the body begins to turn and that they held the remains out. And I don't know who else is coming in contact with the body. You see?

Like a chain of custody issue? That's a major problem, man. And, you know, who's, you know, all it takes is some person in the hallway, say, hey, guess what? Charlie Kirk's in there. Right. This is reminiscent to me, like, when you think about the length of time between, you know, 1240 maybe when he's, or I'm sorry, like 140 when he's pronounced dead and 757 when the body actually leaves. I keep thinking Princess Diana in my head because Princess Diana, they left her body in there and had people coming in and out for hours and hours and then I think like the. Prince Charles flew in and eventually they then took possession of the body and we know there's a lot of sketchy questions about like well what the fuck

What was the people talk about like that small partner heart is actually what caused the death? But was there other information we could have gleaned it? Anyone fuck with the body like same kind of thing It just seems like again you said earlier you want to treat every case at the same standard every life is supposed to be every single time Is supposed to be treated in a perfect way so that nothing is fucked with But especially when it's something like this you would think chain of custody and the speed and efficiency of that would be top of mind because of how public this was.

Yes. Yeah. And you would, it would be palpable. Right. Like you would understand what you're in the middle of and that any delay that you take is going to be viewed poorly. If you have redirected your path from whatever your standard operating procedure is, now I don't know what their standard because everybody's is.

different, all right? But I know with the national standard, which I was one of the people that helped create, you know, the national standard for medical legal death investigator. You did? Yeah, I was part of the original Milwaukee Task Force. Yeah, flex right there. Yeah, boy. Yeah, that and I don't know, $2.30 and get me a cup of coffee at a Waffle House. That's right. So you want, you want to be as time of that. as possible, get control over those remains as soon as you can. And people think that it sounds very cold and callous because, well, aren't you going to let the family see the body? No, is it unusual to let the family see the body? That quickly? Well, the problem is, is that before

the medical examiner gets there many times, the social workers at the hospital get involved and you have to have your grieving moment. Well, the grieving moment is not going to help you when you're trying to process evidence. Right. And the grieving moment is always trumped by evidentiary value, period. So is it unusual or just not desirable? It's not desirable at all. It would be I'd have a conversation with somebody if I was a supervisor.

So let's take her at her word. Let's assume, I don't know how safe that is to take Erica Kirk at her word, but let's assume she's being accurate that the body was still warm or at least not on ice when she saw him around 4 o'clock. We know the body then didn't leave the hospital before 4 o'clock. The earliest it could have left is sometime after that. But then we see the procession at 8 o'clock, and most people assume that's when the body left.

If it arrives at the medical examiner's office, well, let's go back one step further. Sure. So after she sees the body at 4, if it doesn't leave to 8, where's it go from then? Is there a medical examiner examining on site? Yeah, there could be. I've gone into mercy rooms as an environment.

investigator for years and conducted my initial examination in the emergency room. And I actually kind of treat the little treatment area as kind of a tertiary scene, I guess, where I will photograph the body on the gurney or on the stretcher that they have in there because most of these emergency room, you're going to run a code in there. It's not like a regular stretcher. It's, you know, a treatment treatment bed. And I'm going to make my observations. As a matter of fact, I'm going to bring my own bags to bag the hands. How long does that take?

As long as I want it to take or as long as, well, I don't have to do it anymore, but as long as my colleagues deemed necessary. What would be the maximum amount of time something like that might take if you're really? It all depends on your travel time from point A to point B. I've always practiced in big metropolitan areas. We know they were there no longer, no later than five. Like, we know by five they were there. Yeah, you should, once you're notified, and it would be the charge nurse at the emergency room,

that would call the Emmy, the on duty, whoever it is, at the Emmy's office, say, look, and this is the way the conversation generally goes. Yeah, we've, this emergency room at such and such hospital, we have a homicide victim. We need to tell you about. And generally, if I hear homicide, I'm saying, say no more, let me grab my bag, I'm getting in my vehicle, and I'm beating feet there. I'm getting there as quickly as I possibly can. And I will expressly say, don't let anybody near that body, period.

And I will probably, if it's a homicide, I am going to call the investigators that will be assigned to that case because you know who's coming up next in the rotation. So you've got the ME and the police investigator converging on that one spot, and you begin to coordinate and have a conversation with one another, which is cool because if you've got anybody in the hospital that's on staff and they're trying to get cakey with you in any way about anything regarding what needs to be doing with the body, that conversation is going to end really, really quickly. And again, it goes back to control over the remains.

And, you know, my old standby was you want to see, look, I'm sorry for your loss. You want to see your loved ones remains. Go ahead and make funeral arrangements. But at this point in time, we cannot allow you to have access to the body because I've seen, you would not believe the things I've seen families do with bodies when they're standing over bodies, hugging, grabbing, pulling. Taking things off of and screaming and pulling their hair out and everything else. And that's a normal, it's a normal reaction. understand that but from evidentiary standpoint it's a nightmare that's right so let's say they let's

let's just follow the timelines five o'clock the body's still warm because she said it was warm at four so we assume it's still warm at five we see the train leave at eight so we can assume perhaps the medical examiner did some sort of cursory examination at the scene took a hour two maybe three pack the body up get it ready to go and get it out of there it arrives in taylor'sville at 830 or 845, we're guessing. Do you start cooling the body at that point? What do you do? No, I've, no, you don't have to cool the body at all. You're already in a controlled environment. I'm making phone calls at this point. Who you call me? If I'm calling the autopsy technician that's on duty. And if it's a senior, if they have a senior morgue supervisor, I'm calling that person.

Look, we've got to get this done. We've got to get it done now. And I say, I, what I'm saying is the chief medical examiner has probably been notified for the state. Whoever the pro sector, that is the deputy medical examiner that's on duty, they're rushing there to their facility and they're getting suited up. They're going to rock and roll right then. If you've got a separate x-ray tech calling them, I'm coordinating with the police. You got detectives. We're going to start in an hour, have your representative here, then get there now. Is that the rush on any homicide or is that just because it's Charlie Kirk? No, that would be Charlie Kirk.

Okay. Because I've done cases on high profile cases, two o'clock in the morning. Okay. You know. But not not Jim Bob down the road. He waits to him. No. Like one case in particular comes to mind.

It was a serial homicide event and we suspected that that case that we had. There's been others as well. And particularly if you get a mass fatality event, you don't dictate what time is happening. The event dictates the time to you. And if they're being pressured in any way whatsoever, they'll respond not by saying something to somebody. They're going to say, we need to go ahead and get on this and get everything collected. We need to get and go through the entire procedure as expeditiously as we possibly can. So if he, let's say it arrives at 830, best, best case scenario for the timeline.

Yep. At what point do you think it starts? What time are we? And by starts, I mean, you tell me what's the first step, but what time does that first step take place? Yeah. So first step you're going to do is you're going to take, first off, the body will be in, it'll go into intake,

and it will be assigned in a session number, which is that listed number that you're given. Everybody's given in a session number that comes through the medical exam or the coroner's office. So that number becomes the name. The name becomes the number. So that's how you're going to be identified. And that's essential because every bit of evidence that's collected off the body is going to be tracked by the medical examiner a session number.

The police will have a separate case number. All right. So we have it's because we handle, the medical legal community handles 10 times more deaths than police do. And they're doing other stuff like burglaries and all that stuff. and they have individual case numbers for that. We deal only with dead. So we've got naturals, self-harm, accidents, unexplained deaths, other homicides. Okay.

And each one of those gets a unique number that is unique to that individual. So it goes to intake and get the number. How long does that take? Not long. It'll roll right up. And now in the digital world, and they'll begin to print out labels. Well, how long does it take to get them from the car that's arrived at 830 onto the table to get the number? as quick as you can get it through the door.

You're just rolling it in? Okay. And here's one other thing that I forgot to mention that is part and part is there's three things that we do in the medical legal world. We determine manner of death. There are five. We've talked about that before, the cause of death. We also determine ID.

And it seems kind of a passe kind of thing, but it's important to understand because you have to document how you've got this individual ID. And I know that many people out there say, well, this is Charlie Kirk. Okay, cool. I'm glad that it is. How do we get him identified? And there will have to be, and when you look at documentation from a medical examiner's office, there is a place on there where it says, how was this individual identified? So who specifically identified it? And you'll have a name that. Say wife or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It'll say wife and it'll specifically name. Or it could be one of the people on the security team. They positively identified them. you know and so that's that's part of the process that has to be documented there'll also be fingerprints that are done now many cases it all depends upon the office if if his hands are bagged which i hope

they were that would follow the autopsy so you roll prints after that everybody gets a print rolled that comes that comes through the medical examiner's office i don't care if it's an 80 year old granny, it doesn't matter. They're going to have a print roll. But I digress. So once the number has been given and assigned, the next thing you're going to do is you're going to take what's called a slap shot, which is where there will be an identifying photograph where you'll take. Some medical examiners will have a camera in the ceiling and you take the gurney and you put it beneath the camera and you'll see a television screen and get lined up like that and they'll take a facial shot. All right. Then the next step is going to be going to whatever x-ray apparatus you have. That's going to be essential because you, if doing an autopsy, we've learned, particularly one that involves firearms. If you don't do a

x-rays, it's like taking a trip without a map and you don't know where you're going. So the x-ray is paramount. You have to get x-ray shot. They'll do APs and they'll do laterals just like they do on us, you know, when we go to the hospital. But you have to manipulate the, you have to hold everything for the film. But it gives you some sort of a three-dimensional understanding of where stuff is. You develop that really quickly and that way you can put it up on a light board. and see it now some some facilities actually have access to even more robust uh kind of love that word

for some reason um you know cts for instance they can you know and this has happened i think they did like gabby pittito a little world it was they ctied her body uh so it all depends on what your department has access to and every everything that you document before you ever start the procedure itself is is is key baron and are you you you taking pictures all along the way here of each step? Yeah, yeah. And so there will be a morgue photographer. And you'll also have a crime scene person that comes from the police department that will take their photographs as well.

How long is everything you've been describing so far? What kind of timeline are we talking about if we do all of it? It all depends on how many injuries you have. And it also understand that the physician that is in the suite and the autopsy, suite, they are the master and commander in there. So whatever they want, they're going to get. And if they want a thousand images or 10, that's what they're going to get. And they're going to do it from various, various depths. Like, well, let's just say we've got a gunshot one of the neck. Okay. So you would take an image without scale that will kind of give you the perspective of the neck.

okay and then you'll take one width scale then you'll come in at an intermediate range all right where you still have like if you're doing it in profile that people will feel where their atoms apple is and it's positioned like this you still want to have this visualized in there so if you've got a jury they say oh okay that's the atoms apple then you take with scale without scale and then you come in to do a micro shot where you're going to do with scale without scale where you're going to do with scale without scale And you'll do it from a couple of perspectives. You'll do it straight on. And this is such in an eye,

if we're talking about a wound that's right here, you'll get it from this perspective, and you'll step over here and take another one from this perspective. You know, and maybe even lean over the body like this, going north and south and taking it here, here, so that you have these three points of view. Okay. It all depends on,

you know, what the medical examiner is asking for. And then you've got all these camera people that are kind of bouncing around. Yeah, that's another thing because I think you started to say this, and we definitely talked about this when you were in here for 448. But, like, who's in the room? In Utah, like, Charlie Kirk's body comes in. It's delivered. Whoever delivered it and doesn't need to be there leaves.

Who's all there? So you're going to have, obviously, the pro-sector, the forensic pathologist will be there. the autopsy technician or the path assistant is going to be at their side and you will have dependent upon the office you will have a a morgue photographer that'll physically be there then the police will be there in the case of a homicide or they should be we always encourage police to attend autopsies you'd be surprised I may choose not to And that is the detective. But most of the time, the investigating department is going to send their own crime scene technician that will be assigned to do nothing but take photographs.

And this is not going to be the same person that's at the scene, working the scene. That's a different kettle of fish. When you say that jurisdiction, like Utah County? Yeah. Yeah. Whatever they have available. Or if they've spun up the state police at this point in time, you might have a state police. You might even have, if this has been sent out to the state PD, you might, because this is a state medical examiner.

This is not a county, it's not a county entity. So they're plugged into the state police. They might call their own call, whoever's up. You know, you remember that old show, a homicide life on the street, and they had the board where the next investigator would loop up. That's the way it actually works. You know, you're up next. And so you're on call. I was going to say, you know, you're carrying the pager.

Boy. How. People still carry. I remember back in the day. So that person would be on deck next and they're going to catch this case. They would want to physically come to the autopsy or have one of their colleagues, Utah is a big place. They might have somebody that is in the Orem area that's not going to be the lead, but they're going to be the representative for the state police as an investigator at that autopsy. And they might even send their own crime scene people there too.

So you're looking what eight or ten people? Yeah. Potentially, again, it comes down to resources and what your needs are going to be. Because, you know, you can have, as we've talked about with JFKee, too many people in a room. And many times you've got the, you might have, you might have eight to ten people in the room, but are they the right people to have in the room? You just don't want anybody in the room because you don't know. I can't imagine why they would have somebody there that was just there for their amusement.

But human nature, you know, you want to make sure that everybody that is there, in fact, does have a purpose. Let's say he arrives at 830. They roll him in. They intake him. They assemble the team. Let's say the team's all there because he died seven hours ago, eight hours ago. We know we're going to do this tonight. Or at least we had a couple hours of lead time.

Go ahead and get in here. He's on the way. Yeah, yeah. What time do they start? I mean, within a minute, within five minutes, within 20 minutes? As soon as that, as soon as all those initial photographs are done, the doctor will walk around traditionally with a clipboard in their hand, and you've seen autopsy diagrams where you've got like the, you know,

and they'll start doing their renderings, right? They'll. There's abrasion left knee. Yeah, exactly. And they'll have a ruler. They're walking around with an ABF, ruler. If you've ever seen one, 9-degree ruler, it's got a gray scale on it.

And they're placing this there. They're doing the measurements and they'll look at the photographer and say, take this shot right here. And they're still taking notes and doing everything that they have to do as that's visually being captured. Because once they move on from that, they're going through the next thing.

And it can be anything you could have... But the autopsy doesn't start until that process is done? Yeah. And how long is that take? The autopsy. So we call it, it's actually referred to as the external and then the internal exam. So the external exam can actually be a bit more tedious than the internal exam. Why is that? Because there's so much of the body surface you have to examine and you're also examining clothing. And do they roll them over and look at his back? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You're going to

look stem to stern, soles of the feet, the back. Inside the folds of everything. Every inch of the body. You're looking behind the ears. You're doing an oral examination, which is particularly difficult. have somebody with Riger that's setting you have to break the Riger in the jaw. They're also checking for the... How long does all that start to take place? The Riger setting in depends on temperature most of the time. So the warmer something is, the quicker Riger sets in. So you'll first appreciate it in the smaller muscle groups.

It's happening everywhere like you won't see it in the thighs, right, immediately. But you'll see it. It happens in the eyelids, happens in the jaw in particular, sets in really because these muscle groups are smaller. So you assess a level of rigidity, and they're going to make note of post-mortem deposition of like if you're laying in a supine position like this, they'll roll the body over and they'll say if the post-mortem validity is blanchable or not blanchable. If you take your thumb and press it into your skin, those of us that are living, it'll blanch because you're, you know, you're stemming blood flow into that area. the dead can't stem. So if it's... He's pointing right here, by the way.

Just do... Oh, sorry. Like that. So... Point him right here. Yeah. And it's just an example. If somebody has lividity on their back, for instance, and it's literally livid.

Lividity. It's purple. If you depress it, right, and it doesn't blanch, there's a time frame that that takes to set in. Okay. And... But just the rigor setting in on the initial phases, is it an hour, two hours, ten hours? you'll first see you'll begin I you'll first be able to see rigor begin to rigor rigger people say it different ways I'm probably mispronouncing you no no no no there is no

correct way there is no correct way you whatever blows your hair back so depending upon the temperature the hotter the body is the hotter the environmental temperature it speeds it up. So if you're you're going to see the first signs of it probably within about two to four hours. That's about, and that's one of the, it's one of the elements that we use to determine time of death. So eight hours into this, he's probably got it. He's got rigidity already setting in. You're going to already be able to appreciate it in the fingers, maybe the elbows. You're going to check flexation in the knees, the hips, the feet, all that sorts of, do they flex or do they not? So he doesn't. So he doesn't.

Does the external examination, that takes 10 minutes, an hour? Depends on the person. In a case like this, it could take up to an hour. Okay. Yeah, yeah. That's realistic. So what are we at maybe like 10 o'clock now? It gets in there at 8.30.

They do a half hour to do pictures and all that, get everyone ready. Does that sound about right? Yeah. Okay. Now what do we do? Well, you're going to go back since we're talking about a defect in the neck. your man's going to walk over to the light board with the films that they will probably bring the assistant over with them and say all right let's take a look at this and see what the orientation is and they're going to look for any kind of radio opaque fragments that are there

because they're trying to see if there is what we refer to many times as a lead storm so if you've got around that has pass through, you don't just look for the core of the round itself. You're going to look for any kind of little bits of fragments and they'll be, you'll see them, you know, they'll be all over the place. Sometimes you can appreciate kind of the cavitated area that it creates. There'll be some disruption and all depends on how good the x-ray is, but you're looking for those little fragments. And you're going to look at them, like I said, in the lateral sense and in, you know, straight on like this, AP and lateral. So you're looking through. here trying to determine and they're coordinating about how they're going to approach this one thing

I forgot we had mentioned it previously you're going to put in the trajectory rods before this before you ever break out the the scalpel and those photographs are going to be done so you're going to take they look like dowel like dowel rods yeah d'if can we pull that up again for people we found that last time just said they can see it but go ahead Joseph they look like dowel rods is that a quick process a few minutes it's a delicate process. Okay. You have to be very careful because if you're,

what are they called Joseph? I'm sorry. Trajectory rods. Yeah. Yeah. And they're static. It's not like you're, it's not like you're using lasers or something like that. This is not that lasers aren't static.

You know what I'm saying. It's something that the doctor is going to place this in there. And generally they're going to be pretty thin. We used to use these kind of, I've seen people use metal. Yeah. That's a dial rod there. Right. Those are.

Which ones? the best one to show? Let's see. With the cop holding it like that? No, I like the one you got up there with the body. I'd love to see what that one looks like. Okay. Can you expand that at all or no?

You are a human. There you go. Okay. You may not. That's what I'm saying. I don't know. But I just, yeah, for purposes of orientation, you see what I'm talking about, though, and you can see the pitch on it and that sort of thing.

You have to be very delicate when you place this in there because you can disrupt structures. And also, if there's a projectile in there. Can move it. Yeah, I've seen physicians that will get, you know. Yeah. And you can, one of the worst things you ever want to hear is that metal tink. Yeah.

Yeah, if, since we're not showing it just so I can describe it to people, I want you to imagine, and you can Google this as well. But if Charlie's wound is here, it is a long, very thin rod that would be put in at approximately what they would determine the trajectory to be based on where the wound is. So maybe like that, maybe like that. and it just sticks out. And Joseph's saying they would do it obviously slowly and carefully to try not to fuck with the area. You do not want, you as the examiner do not want to dictate the position of the rod.

You want the defect to dictate the position of the rod. That's kind of, you know, it's kind of elemental, but it's essential here because any deviation off of this, you know, it's going to skew data. And we remember how we were talking about the chair just a moment ago. Well, this is an essential component here to see if what we're seeing the more, if it is within acceptable parameters to marry up to what we're seeing that happened or allegedly happened, you know, from what they're saying from the roof down to here, is it plausible? You know, that's one of the questions that we would have.

But on a time basis, is this a few minutes? Is it pretty time-consuming? Yeah, I hate to keep walking. I know. It's all depends on. the skill of the pro sector, how fastidious they are. And some of them, I've been around a lot of them that just like to blow and go. They'll go, go, go.

And then other people, they're like a deer in the headlights. Sometimes you're wondering if they're even actually thinking. Sometimes they'll just stand there, you know, trying to, you can see the, you know, the wheels kind of turning. And they're thinking, where do I go now? And it all depends on the skill level of the individual. I would imagine that whoever did this autopsy, Guelhardo, is probably going to be at the top end of the skill level in the staff.

You're not going to want to throw a newbie out there. And you don't know this guy, Quilharter? You know a lot of these people. So I'm asking. Nope. He's now the medical examiner of Duchess County, New York. Oh, okay. Yeah, they're, forensic pathologists are kind of transient.

And that happens with some frequency. They'll move around because there's so few of them. If they get a better gig somewhere, they'll go to it. So whether it takes a few minutes or a long time, this is done. And then now it's time to open up and take a look inside. Yeah. And it's going to start with, and again, it's pro sector dependent. You've got to do a standard Y incision, which everybody's seeing, starts here.

The apex of shoulders. comes down over the sternum. You make that initial incusion and then down to the pubis, the midline, and you can open the body up. Do they have to open the sternum

or they just open the flaps? Yeah, they create flaps. They're triangular. It's like a slice of pizza right here. And you have to, what's called reflecting, you reflect this back. Remember I was talking about

the fascia, the connected tissue. You reflect. collecting this back, back, back, back, back, and flips over the face. Then you go down the midline, open up here. And then either you're going to use bone shears, or limb shears, which most offices use limb shears like you clip a limb with. Or they use a striker's a brand name like Kleenex.

But you're going to use an agitating saw. It looks like a cast saw. You're going to remove the breastplate at that point of time. And then you go through all of the organ systems. There's one of two ways to do it. You do an organ by organ dissection, or you do what's called on block. On block means that everything comes out in one big block.

In a case like this, you would probably do organ by organ because you're trying to be delicate with each organ. I'm just kind of walking you guys through a standard autopsy here, right? So hearts probably going to come out first. You're going to weigh the heart, see what it weighs. The technician is taking the heart out. The doctor is not taking the heart out. So you're open up the paracardial sac.

It's kind of like, you know, I talked about the brain has a sack. Heart has a sack. You're going to open it. It's going to have, you're going to say it's got straw-colored fluid in it, which the paracardial fluid is straw-colored. You'll open it up, look at the heart externally. you'll hand it to dock, put it in scale, we weigh it. And then you go lung by lung.

You know, lung by lung, dissect out the diaphragm, examine the liver in place, check the gallbladder in place. See if it's got stones. Remove the liver. Look at the spleen. Splean's kind of connected to the pancreas. You're going to go working by organ, posterior, the adrenal glands on top of the kidneys, and you're going to take the kidneys out.

You're going to weigh each one of those. And then you're going to do the bowel dissection. which is lengthy, and it's done on every autopsy. What do you mean by lengthy? It just takes a while because you have to do what's called running the bowel. And so you go through every inch of the bowel and you're looking for any kind of lesions that's in there. And that's just standard.

Again, you don't want to deviate. You don't want to make exceptions. I'm not a big fan of partial autopsies either because some people, they will do cases. I know of cases where people will have a gunshot wound. And they only go in and they only dissect the trauma that's created by the gunshot. Do you think that would fall below the standard in this case if they did that? Yes, it would.

You're going to really get yourself into a lot of trouble. And that's another question too. Again, you want to treat every single thing the same? Yeah. But when you had really high profile cases that you were doing, would it be maybe human nature normal in your seat sometimes to maybe take your time a little more, even with a process like that, Oregon by Oregon? No, no, no.

No. In cases that I've been involved in over the years, we really weren't respecters of persons in there. I'm not having a big kumbaya moment here. It's just that you have to treat each case, you know, the same. In a sense of you don't want to do less for somebody or more for somebody. There are certain cases that are dictated

where you have to do more like anybody that dies in custody. That dissection takes forever because you're actually dissecting the back, the backs of the legs, souls of the feet, palms of the hands, the whole nine yards, because you're looking for any trauma

that an institution could have done. And there are different procedures that you do. The on block is referred to as Rogatansky. And it's a Rogutansky dissection or on block. And you just lay everything out. But when you're talking about trauma, that's not really a good way because you want to keep everything contained. I don't know how far down that trauma. You could have had lead fragments coming down.

Well, not, yeah. And areas of impact or if this thing fragmented, like, you know, they're showing those, the images from the preliminary hearing of the same. I don't know where those wound up. Yeah, so to your point, and those create, those cavitate in their own little way, because those are, once it fragments, it becomes its own little projectile. Well, and they did mention in the recent filing that there was damage to the top of the heart, for example. So, yeah, there's probably kind of a contused area there. And again, that goes to, if I had, did they say anything about the lungs that there was like at the top of the lung?

lungs that there was any kind of a second pull it up and send it because many times if you if you see you know that kind of again that kind of kinetic effect you'll you can get contusions on multiple surfaces depending upon the the velocity transfer the energy and how far out it extends from there yeah all right let's take a quick bathroom break and we'll pull that up and come back with that right away sounds good all right we're back so we just left off after we went through all the process of what you would take out internally, the lungs, weighing all that. And our timeline, where were we at with the timeline now, Barron? I think we thought around 10 o'clock the Y cut would start, give or take, based on the timeline, not holding anyone to it, but just guessing.

Okay, ballpark 10 o'clock. Now what? Yeah, so at this point, after you're done with the thorax, essentially. All the organs of the chest, the abdomen are removed and weighed. Each organ is dissected. They're going to take samples of every organ and it's going to go into preservative. So they've held everything. They've got sections of bowel, reproductive organs, bladder, the whole nine yards, heart, lungs, liver, everything. Now comes the really detailed part, okay. Because all you have left are the head and neck. And in this case, you're in the sweet spot here. So before we get to head and neck, how long is the abdomen take?

Oh, the abdomen itself. I don't know. I've been involved in autopsies. I've been involved in autopsies that the autopsy itself, you know, and I'm talking about the actual prosection of remains. once you get in, and this is after you've got up and running and you're working, right? Less than an hour. Okay, less than an hour.

And again, this is all dependent upon, all dependent upon how, what type of trauma you're talking about. So if you're going in, you've got somebody that's got multiple gunshot wounds all over their body, it's going to take you an hour. It's going to take you hours, okay, because you're going to have to track every one of those wounds. And you're going to do trajectories through all of those wounds. And you have to make note of what organ systems and what vessels are impacted by each one of those wounds. And that's just kind of an over-the-top example. Motor vehicle accidents take a long time, many times because you've got so much trauma.

But if you're talking about a single, let's just say the abdomen, there's no trauma, there's no trauma in the chest. You'd mention the heart, you know. I'd like to know if the lungs were contused at all. So if you go to the bottom of this page, and I guess Steve can pull it up. That paragraph there and it'll spill over under the top of page three. That's the descriptions from the medical examination. What document is this, Baron, that we have? This is the state's summation of the preliminary hearing.

Gotcha. Gotcha. All right, so this bottom paragraph is what you're talking about? Yeah, and it rolls over on the top of page three. Okay, so it says the bullet or at least parts of it, quote, sequentially perforated the anterior left side of Mr. Kirk's neck. neck, strap muscles of the left side of the neck and the left common cartoid or carotid and left internal and external jugular veins, unquote, states examination 11 ST3. The bullet also, quote, obliterated the left side of the C2 to 7 vertebrae and transected the cervical spinal

cord, unquote, ID. The medical examiner observed that, quote, a significant portion of Mr. Kirk's cervical spinal cord was traumatically absent, unquote, ID at 3-4. Mr. Kirk suffered other severe injuries, including, quote, bilateral, apical and posterior intercostal hemorrhages, pulmonary apical hemorrhages slash hematomas, and multiple disruptions of the thyroid, cryoid, and tracheal cartilages, idea, unquote, idea three. The medical examiner also observed hemorrhaging around Mr. Kirk's heart, hemoparicardium, both of his lungs, quote, left and right hemothorax, unquote, and the subarachinoid space around the, quote, cerebellar vermus and the parietal regions, unquote, of Mr. Kirk's brain ID at 3.4.

Wow. Okay. So the last part's pretty impressive because you're talking about the cerebellum, which is the base back here. You've kind of got the base. base of the brain. You're talking about the vermus there and the parietal region. So parietal is lateral. So these are your, this is your temporal area. Okay. Parietal, some people call it parietal is right here. Okay. So you've got hemorrhage that's extending up into here. And you've also got, let me see, didn't say anything about the oxiput, which the oxenot is probably going to involve the cerebellum. So back here, Okay. So all of this is impacted. Again,

when you say impacted, what do you mean? Well, it's impacted by this concussive event, you know, where you've got the concussion of this round. Unless, you know, because what we don't see here is any further, any further, they're just using the term, well, for there, they're using term disruptions. The medical examiner also observed. Hemiparicardium.

So hemoparicardium. Cardium means that he had blood, blood surrounding the heart. People might think, well, of course you have, no, you don't have blood inside the heart. So this kind of traumatic event, both lungs left and right. What does that suggest if it was surrounding the heart? What does that suggest to you? This could be as a result of heroic measures that were being done, sorry, by doing compressions perhaps hemothorax you have blood and chest you've got subaract

wood space yeah so yeah this there's a lot going on here that we and again they don't because they didn't have the ME come up to stand the in the preliminary you know which was strange yeah kind of was I would have preferred from my perspective because that's kind of the area that I dance in you know the medical legal area I wanted but they just kind of, what do you guys call it? Admitted it. Admitted the autopsy report without further comment. The only evidence we had it of a dead body was a cop reading the conclusion of the M.E.'s

report. Yeah. So. Is there a reason why they might hold back their hand completely in this case? I don't know. I think, I got to thinking about this the other day, tooling around. And I was thinking, why didn't I call the M.E? and they, you know, there were those multiple stoppages along the way when they were, you know, they were not,

they would either shut the thing down or, you know, of course, they had sidebars and whatnot, but there are certain things that they wouldn't show and talk about everything that the Emmy is going to talk about is going to be considered to be prejudicial, I think, from a traumatic standpoint. Not in a preliminary hearing. Yeah, I know, but. If there was any kind of, if, and again, this is not my area. All right. I'm just saying, I'm thinking, trying to think like the judge,

if there's anything prejudicial that's going to impact the pool at all, the pool of potential jurors. And I, again, I'm just kind of spitballing. I've covered enough trials, though, live coverage on court TV and law and crime where we do. And I've seen, I've seen them hold stuff back relative to MEs before because they view it. But again, we have to contextualize this and say this is a preliminary hearing. But I'm just trying to think ahead and think why would the judge not compel them to have, you know, the ME come to the stand, you know, which I find, you know, fascinating. Yeah, nobody testified who saw a dead body.

Yeah. Not one person. Yeah. So, and again, I don't know if that just goes to prejudice. And I mean prejudice in the sense of the pool. Hard to have a murder without a dead body. Yeah. Corpus delucti.

There you go. So I love saying that, by the law. It makes me feel very lawyerly, even though I'm not. It feels very high brow. It does. So back to our dissection. Yeah. Okay.

So a lot of injuries there. And this is even further evidence of, in my opinion, this is where they would have spent the most time. Okay. So they're going to be doing what's referred to as a layered dissection. I mean, layer by layer before they ever begin to remove anything. So all of the structures in the neck, they're going to gently kind of reflect, reflect all of these surfaces down. You know, they talked about the strap muscles. For instance, if you don't know what strap muscles are, it's something we examine.

We pay particularly close attention to these in cases of asphysealox strangulation. They're kind of these crisscross muscle structures that are in here and like when somebody is grabbed, they, you'll see focal areas of hemorrhagen. Can you roll back up to the strap muscles? I thought that I'd seen them mention. I wasn't sure. Where he says the common carotid? Yeah, carotid. Yeah, carotid, sorry.

Left internal, external, yeah, so that top line strap muscles, okay, so the bullet, or at least parts of it, sequentially perforated the anterior left side of the neck and strap muscles. So, yeah, so right through here, and then it passes through these muscular structures on the left aspect. So they're seeing focal areas of hemorrhage in here and you would have hemorrhage because we're still blood's still public, right? Coursing.

So it's going to bleed out into those little soft, soft bodies in there. Again, going back to what I'd said earlier, I'm hoping that when, I'm sorry, I'm getting ahead of myself. As they're going through this later dissection, they're stopping for photographs. you're going to have no question no question okay you have to man you have to do it again the word in situ and you'll hear forensic pathologists use that term all the time i want this and like the strap muscles as once you get through every layer as you go through each layer and you're kind of pulling these back and you'll see the dissection of like the strap muscles they'll be laid to the side you'll see them actually kind of laid out like this and they'll take an anterior shot and then

the underside of it too. You'll see a photograph there. So they're going to have those photographic images. Now, whether or not they'll actually use them if this thing goes to trial. They haven't even produced them. Okay. So, and that's another part. They'll have to have, and correct me if I'm wrong, counselor, they have to have a separate, I think people think that the preliminary hearing is once that happens and it has happened and if he comes back and the equivalent of, I guess, like a true bill where he says, yeah, it's going to, this is, we're moving forward with this. There are still, like, other hearings that are going to take place relative to admission of evidence.

I've talked about extensively about just testifying to photographs over the years, you know, and it's tedious. And so they'll have to decide what you have to state in clear terms. Why are you showing this photograph? What does this demonstrate? because you cannot just throw up photographs to throw up photographs. Hey, we took a thousand photographs or a thousand images. You have to state a reason, and it has to be a good reason,

while you're showing this in court. Now, you could have, there could be hundreds and hundreds of other photographs that are never seen in any case. Trust me, this happens, right? You want the ones that are going to best demonstrate the point that you're trying to make as the prosecution. Now, I'll be curious. to see if defense gets access to all the photographs.

I would assume that they would in discovery. They'll be able to review everything. And they'll be able to make an argument. And they'll talk about, you know, we need this. They don't need this. We want our experts to see everything because they're going to retain somebody, I guess. I still don't. They've indicated they're going to.

Yeah. So, and it makes sense that they would. But at the beginning, when you're in the autopsy, the attitude is you'd rather be looking at it than looking for it. I'd really be drowning. in photographs than not have any at all. So you're going to have multiple photographs from multiple perspectives. And it can be down to the tiniest little hemorrhage, pinprick hemorrhage that you'll see.

They're going to photograph that thing. And they'll do it again, pulling back, mid-range, micro. So over and over and over again. And I hate to keep asking the question. No, please. But the reason I do is because I want to know, is this your opinion of the way it should be done or is this the standard? So would it be substandard? Would it be below the standard?

to not have photographed each other way. Definitely, Baron. It would be below the standard not to photographically document every single thing here. And you're talking hundreds potentially. Yeah. Or more? Well, hundreds. I think that's a reasonable number.

And you've kind of got a concentrated area, don't you? So how many photographs can you take of one specific area? Right. You know, over and over and over. But like as they're taking the organs out and documenting the injury to the heart and the lungs, Are they photographing that before they remove it? Yes, they would have. And then they're going to take when they put an organ,

when the technician hands the organ to the doctor, the organ actually goes onto a dissecting board. Sometimes they're cork. They look like they're about that thick. They sit on a dissecting tray. The cork board is up here. And the physician has all of their instruments here. So what they will do is they'll take the organ

and they'll either photograph it on the on the dissecting board or they'll take a have you ever seen a blue surgery drape it's it's kind of a brilliant I don't know what to tell you guys it's kind of a baby blue color I guess it shines yeah yeah it kind of contrast right so you would take like with the heart yeah yeah yeah that's exactly right so you would have a there are drapes not like you're doing surgery but you lay it out flat and so you'll you'll you'll take the organ and you'll you'll take the organ and you're and you'll rotate it, you know, left, left aspect, right aspect, straight on, posterior, and you're taking scales with each one of those. So you're popping all those. And then I'm just thinking heart here as you're dissecting the heart, you're doing what's called breadloafing. So you're taking the big dissecting knife and you're slicing it and you can flip through it like a book or like a loaf of bread, right?

And you look for trauma or you look for any kind of natural disease pathology through each organ. Now, you're talking about this kind of hemopacardium and also the hemothorax. And if the lungs are demonstrating any kind of focal areas of hemorrhage there and the heart as well, that will be particularly of particular interest traumatically where each one of those elements will be, not just in a sense that you're taking an overall shot. you're going to take very specific shots, and here's one other thing. They're going to take sections of that, and they're going to retain the sections. And that would be that standard practice.

Would those injuries, let's say it was those injuries relative to a, you know, heroic life-saving measures, CPR, whatever? Right, right, right, yeah. Would those injuries be consistent with a post-death, you know, a guy's been dead 10, 15 minutes, and then we start doing it? Or would that? No, you're going to have to have at least some kind of like agonal respirations where, you know, you're in kind of, there's three stages relative to the status of the dead.

You've got anti-mortem that people hear about before death, right? Like going into a pyramid and you go into anti-chamber, right? You hear that term. And you have post-mortem after death, right? Well, there's that stage called perimortem. And it's kind of that milky twilight area. And you can still get focal areas of hemorrhage during that period of time. You know, the lights are kind of going out at that point.

But in order for him to experience those injuries, it would have to be some, evidence of life. Yeah, yeah, they would. The dead don't hemorrhage. So if he's dead at the scene like they claim and then they did CPR in the car just for the heck of it. Yeah, but again, that's a perimortem state. So if you're doing chest compressions on somebody in there in that perimortem state and you traumatize this area, it's going to demonstrate. Now if we- But if he's missing his C-spine, he's dead. Yeah, or at least he is in the process of dying. It all depends on when this was initiated. Well, they're saying it was like 10, 15 minutes later.

How rigorous this was, you know, when they're doing this. Yeah. And it will present. And again, I don't know if these presentations that we're talking about, because I don't know what the ribs look like. But if he's missing his C2 to C7 spinal cord, he's not breathing. I wouldn't think that he would be. No.

So anything that's a part of that, that has impacted the autonomic nervous system. Because if that happens. that happened simultaneous with the injury, and that's all traumatically absent, they say. That's what he said. And transected. Yeah. He wouldn't be breathing. Yeah, the lights have gone off.

Yeah. There's no more breathing. Yeah. So maybe he caught it in the last breath and there's a little hemorrhage. There might be. And again, you don't know, again, back to this. Because that's what I was going to say about, you know, lots of times with, and medical professionals can testify to this.

You'll see, I've seen fractured sternums, you know, relative to, you know, this. You'll see. this fractured, I've seen fractured ribs, all sorts of things. I've actually seen punctured lungs as a result of heroic measures. But he'd have to have some measure of life. Yeah, there would be something pumping through his system. That's why I'm very interested in kind of, again, back to this idea of the kinetic transfer of the energy, how much of this is impacted. This area is too far out. But we see how, you know, going to your idea about the robust nature, as it were again, Of the 30 out six, how far out did that kinetic energy extend?

If we're talking about this and we're talking about this, you know, how's it impacting the viscera, the underlying viscera? And that's going to be a question that again, back to testimony that the medical examiner will answer. I imagine that whoever the emergency room doc was in there is, going to be called as well. And maybe the nurses, too. So you're going to get a real sense about what his status was in all of that. And so timing, knowing these injuries. Yeah.

How long do you think the thorax? I think that I don't mean to point it. No, no, you can point. No, I'm just saying, I think that these structures in here and given the level of trauma, I could see this, this area alone. probably taking up to an hour perhaps you know with with the dissection here and trying to document everything because we don't know what systems and what structures were impacted and if this thing fragmented you can have separate

little satellite injuries in all of the vessels as well and all of those are going to be annotated and then so they they do that takes about an hour and now how do they how do they determine the injuries to the brain yeah so well back to the neck real quick this is going to be completely removed. When I say completely, the tongue is coming out. Okay. So tongue comes out. You dissect posteriorly and this is all laid out. And that's the standard. That is the standard, brother. And so they're going to take all of this. I'm hoping that they have retained all of this. I would. But that's what you would do in that scenario. That's what a good, I'd retain. Well, I think

that a forensic pathologist would retain this area because it is, it's demonstrative of of this fatal trauma. But could they meet the standard? I'm playing devil's advocate, but could they meet the standard by saying, well, we documented it really well. So we didn't think it needed to stay. We didn't think we needed to keep it.

Or would it require keeping it to meet the standard? I think that it would probably require to meet the standard because all the little vessels that are passing through here, you want to hold on to that. I can't imagine. I'm trying not to be, I'm trying to be as respectful as possible. But, you know, when you do an autopsy, people think that the organs all go back into the same place.

They don't. They go into a bag and they're commingled with everything else, including the brain. And it's all been dissected. So you've got this big mass in a bag. I can't imagine any circumstance where you would take the organs of the neck and just after this kind of event and just toss them into a bag and send them to the funeral home. to probably be destroyed more than likely. Yeah, I was just going to ask a really stupid question. I haven't thought of this, though.

Was he an organ donor? And does that have any impact on this? No way at that point. Yeah, that's the only thing that you could harvest off of a body in the state would be skin and bone. Okay. And that does happen. And also eye nucleation, you can get corneous. But yeah, that's, and this is a homicide case, I can't imagine.

Even if you are an organ donor, the ME would be well advised not to give permission to do that. And they trump that decision relative to organ donation. Got it. So we have the timeline now. I want to make sure I'm about right here. Maybe it's about 1130 based on everything we've talked about, 1115, 1130. And as you've laid out, Joseph, you would have been going over the top to make sure all the proper photos are taken and everything is done correctly. and they really focused on obviously the area of the most trauma.

We discussed way earlier the fact that you want to know where the fuck that shirt is and what they would have done there. And you already laid out how you would have gritted that out. Yes. And so what else would there be to do at this point? You got to open the head. That's the big part here. And not just to open it.

When we do the dissection of the head, again, reflection. The incision is made from behind the ear. It goes from ear to ear like this. And the scalp is pulled forward. It's pulled forward or pulled back posteriorly. And you're going to, if you'll place your fingers right here, you fill all these attachments and musculature, this back here, with an injury like this.

We're going to dissect all the way down. I mean, really, really get into this very, very deep. And we're going to look for. for any kind of focal areas of hemorrhage on the backside. Well, first we're going to examine the backside of the neck. We saw what happened with the ballooning. Remember, we were seeing that? And, of course, they're not going to know that at the time of the autopsy.

That videography came, you know, was presented well. Days later, yeah. Yeah, days later. So, but. Ooh, there's a question. Since this was public, though, would the medical examiner be requesting access to any and all video that we already have in the public domain or that the investigator may have. Yeah, I mean, I don't think there's any, it would, here's the rub, and this is more of a legal

thing. So how do you, if he's, if the ME is using the videography to make a scientific determination, how do you validate the source of the videography? And that would be a question I think the prosecutor and both the defense would ask, because, you know, has, you know, has that how does that play into play into say for instance the decision that the Emmy is going to make and they might even ask well you saw the video how does that influence your you know your you know your your findings here so I think that that's very important to try to understand so do they extract the how did they get into the brain yeah so pull the skin but

mm-hmm yeah so we after you have reflected anterior and then posteriorly. You have to now remove the temporal muscles, which on either side of the skull. And again, you have to examine all of the musculature back here. And are you taking pictures this whole way? All the way. Yeah, there'll be tons and tons of pictures of the head.

Very interesting, I mean, by the way, everything that you would have preserved and you've been talking about that throughout the day, but you just laid it out a couple minutes ago as well, because if we find out at trial that any of that was not preserved, it hurts the case potentially. I think that it does. Yeah, I think that it does. And again, going back to the vertebral bodies, maybe they don't take C2 through C7,

but I think that it's incumbent to take those bodies that are specifically impacted by this round or whatever this was and you have to demonstrate, you know, this piece that you've, you've, uh, bearing that you've, you've talked about relative to the obliteration of the spinal cord. You have to demonstrate an absence of the spinal cord, right? Or the remnant, the sheath that the spinal cord goes up through. Um, or, you know, it was encased in, rather as poorly stated. Um, you have to, you have to demonstrate that. And the retention of those. of those vertebral bodies, I think is essential here. You know, any kind of cosmetic things

that you're thinking about relative to funeral practices and all that, that's all secondary. Right, right. You can always close the casket. Well, you can always close the casket. And plus mortuary science people do incredible things. I mean, they really, really, it's amazing what they do. I couldn't do it.

I wouldn't want to do it, but it's amazing what they can do. So you have to open, you're going to have to open the skull, the cranial vault, and carefully remove the brain. And first off, you're going to have to do, once you get the calvarium off, which is the skull cap itself, once you remove the calvarium, you're going to look at it. Looks like a bowl, okay? And then the brain will be here. It'll be interesting to see if he noted any kind of swelling in the brain, because that's a reaction. You get a reaction to trauma. You'll have to weigh the brain.

By the way, all these organs are being weighed, and there's a standard that you look for, and it's bracketed. You know, no two people are the same. So these weights are bracketed for an individual at this age, his body weight, all these sorts of things. And so they're going to weigh, they're going to examine the brain in place.

They're going to make note if it appears swollen or not. If the vessels in the brain are dilated, if they see any kind of, evidence of congestion in the brain. Again, that's a reactive kind of thing because you're talking about cerebral spinal trauma, right? So you have to make note of that. It would not surprise me at all if they got a consult from a neuropathologist in this case as well. Somebody that they would reach out to that is probably on contract. Trust me, medical examiners have contracts with neuropathologists because neurostuff is, neurotrauma is something you deal with a lot.

Did they just send them a picture and say, what do you think? No. They bring them in physically. Bring them in or you hold the brain. You retain the brain. Yeah, and the brain is preserved. And I'd be interested to know if the brain was dissected that day or if they fixed the brain, which means that you set the brain up in a solution because the brain is, it's kind of like a heavy wet sponge. It's hard to dissect in the immediate.

So you fix the brain in formalin, not formalde, but it's called formalin. it's akin to formaldehyde. And then after it has fixed, you wait days later and then you do the breadloafing on the brain. And you can get a neuroconsult. They'll come in and take a look at it. You might even, I've been involved in cases where we had neuropathologists that have come in and they've actually done the dissection with a forensic pathologist right there. I'm not saying that's what happened here.

But there's so much potential neuropathology here involved in this. and you're going to want to get that brain stem. You have to collect it. Preserve it? Yeah, most definitely. What does it tell you? Well, brain stem is therein rest of the autonomic nervous system, right? And so that's lights out right there.

So any kind of trauma, if it was impacted anyway at all, again, I hate to keep saying this, it better to have it, you know, and not have it and hold on to it. when do you suspect and if I skip something here it could bring us back but doing it all correctly by the book if that is how it was done and saying maybe they started at 830 when do you think this would have been done and when it is done what is the process right there of custody of the body and what is that time yeah i'm thinking again i'm spitballing here just based on my personal experience with something like this, one-ish, one-thirty-ish probably.

I would imagine if you get started at that exact time. Exactly at 8.30 or whatever? Yeah, you're going to need that kind of cushion here. And again, it all depends on, first off, how well the pathologist works with their technician and the photographer, you know, getting that, because it's like a dance. It's kind of weird, right?

You've got these people that are moving about the body, doing photography, there. They're doing it. And everybody has their role to play. How smoothly? How well old is this? And so I would think that if you started at 830, um, 130 might be an outer marker, I think. So they would document the start time and finish time. Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. As a matter of fact, that's going to be in the, the kind of, um, this is what it'll read like. It'll be and you check it yourself. It's gold. It, there's that little preempt. in the beginning of an autopsy report.

And it generally states something like, this pro sector was met at the morgue by technicians, so-and-so, officer so-and-so down the line. So it literally enumerates everybody that's present in there. This autopsy was started at

20, 20, 30 hours on this date. And then they're going to go Are they dictating as they go or someone taking notes? Most of the time they're taking notes. A little interesting aside, how I got to work in the morgue, this is how I started. I worked as a scribe. Were you writing?

Yeah, and I had to learn on the fly. So I would work with a forensic pathologist because you don't, they're not, they don't have the microphone. There's too much noise. You can't do it. And so I would sit there and just feverishly take notes and I'm having to learn as is I'm going, and I learned this as a young man. I was 20 years old just sitting there on a stool,

listening to everything that he said, and by guy, you better not get it wrong, and having to take down measurements and all that. So wait a minute. Because he's dirty, and you're not. Your hands are clean. So they will walk over and write, and they'll write on a grease board,

but if they're asking for specific notes, you're writing down for them. So there's nothing that happens where, like, when I'm in a doctor's office, I'll see my doctor lean over after I tell him what's wrong with my ankle or something like that, and he'll make vocal notes of it and say like patient reports, there's nothing like that that happens?

Most of the time, not in it, again, variable. But in my experience, most will wait until they de-gloved, wash their hands. So they will do it after? They can. Okay. And depending upon their caseload, I've seen doctors sit down with all of their notes and they might sit down. I've seen doctors dictate eight cases in one day.

And I don't see how they remember some of the stuff. It's mind-blowing to me. But with this case, with those injuries? You're going to step too. I mean, I can't state what this person did. I have no idea, but I know that you would want to do it while your memories were fresh. And that's a question that defense attorneys never asked doctors, which is kind of interesting. They never say, when did you dictate this? And how many other cases were you doing that

day? I remember sitting down and having lunch one day with a guy, Dr. Gold, who did the autopsy on Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman. And I just asked him straight out. I was like, and we were at an affiliate meeting in St. Louis, as a matter of fact, and I'd never met anybody from L.A. County Corner. I'd seen Dr. Noguchi speak, but I was just sitting here, and it turns out this guy, you know, and I was like, what's your typical day like? You know, like when you go into the shop, you know, how many autopsies you're doing? He's telling me some days he'll do 12 and 13 autopsies in one day. And they were really short-staffed at that period of time. This is before the O.J. Simpson thing. So I was sitting there and is having a conversation with him.

It's like a dog groomer. Oh, and then, you know, in the meantime, you're spending the next day, you're not on, you're not on duty the next day, and oh, by the by, yeah, you've got to go testify. You imagine the L.A. County, how many autopsies, I mean, how many cases you have to testify in? So, anyway, the volume sometimes, I wouldn't think their volume would be like that. I'm just stating that. You know, it's kind of wild, and you think about everything they have to retain at that moment, time. So what happens if they finish on her about 130, M.E. goes into dictate and all that. where's the body, what might be a decent timeline for the body to be taken possession of to go to the funeral, the local funeral. Almost immediately, I've been present for autopsies where we sewed the body up. How long does that take?

Ten minutes? Yeah, most, yeah. Sometimes funeral homes don't want you to sew the body up because every time you do a baseball stitch like this. And every time you pull a needle through, that's another hole they have to patch. They're trying to preserve the body. So sometimes they will just say, leave it like it is, you know, like that. And I've pulled bodies directly off of tables in a bag. You know, we put them back in a body bag or we'll do the autopsy in the body bag.

Pull them over onto the funeral director's gurney and out the door they go. Let me ask you one final question before we go back to timeline. Anything on the back of the body? Mm-hmm. So we did the Y, we did the neck, we did the head. Yeah, you're going to, they're going to dissect the, there'll be a muscle dissection back here too. All these muscles.

Yeah, yeah, there'll be, and all that stuff's going to be visualized. And, you know, you know how you asked me just a few moments ago about they're taking a look at the back? Well, you have to take a look at the back again because when you saw the back initially, this wasn't dissected. And so you literally have to reorient the body again with this being demonstrated back here to take the shot back here to say again either it's present or it's absent. And so that you can, so the doc can not only see it for their own personal reference, but it can be demonstrated in court because that's going to be a question. Certainly in this case.

And it would obviously fall below the standard to not do that to the back. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you got to do it. You've got to do this section back here, snap the photos. And then also, if you do see evidence of hemorrhage, again, back to this idea of the macro intermediate and micro photographs, you're going to dictate it. Look, fellas, I know it gets, it's very tedious. But if you're looking to do something quick and dirty in forensic pathology, you're in the wrong

field. It's like, it's like working on watches. You know, it's sometimes it's like, some days it's really, really easy, but you get something that's very, very detailed. It takes a while. Okay, so going back to timeline 130, you said it can happen quickly with the local funeral home, taking possession of the body. And also at some point here, I remember you explained this to me in that first phone call we had shortly after his death when I called you about all this that was referenced in earlier, how funeral homes will work like Flores, because obviously he was then flown to a different funeral home

in Arizona, which means they would have been in touch with the one in Utah saying what they wanted done with the body for it to get there. So maybe you can explain that. But like, what is the, what does the custody of the body look like after 1.30 and how reasonable is it for it to be in front of Erica Kirk and family at 1230 or 1 o'clock that day local time? I don't think that's an unreasonable amount. To me, it's not given. And here's the thing about it, y'all. I don't know what kind of preceding prep they had done before the body is transported from the local funeral home. I'm not talking about it. from the medical examiner.

The medical examiner will, you know, clean the body, will wash the body after this, all right, to a certain degree, but not to the degree of the funeral home will, okay? So the funeral home would take possession of the body. They have to sign, there's a release document that you have to sign. And also, here's an interesting thing too.

There's a personal effects log. Okay, so like typically, if an individual came in, with a wallet, rings, you know, like wedding rings, that sort of stuff. That would be turned over. However, you know, you think, you know, we were talking about the necklace a little while ago. Well, how did she, if this is the way it happened, how did she get her hands on the necklace? Did it come from the Emmy's office or did it come from another individual? If Frank Turrick can be believed it came from him, he gave it to someone she knows who gave it to her.

So he took it off the body at some point before it was ever. Emmy. Apparently the police searched the SUV and then he went back out to the SUV to grab his bag and the necklace was there. He grabbed the neckliss. This is how this conversation is supposed to go. The conversation is supposed to go, oh, I found a necklace back here. It's got blood on it and it's torn apart. Can you guys send somebody else back out here? We need to photograph this right here. And then it's none of my business at this point. And I'm talking about the finder. The police collect that. They take it into evidence. Yeah. That's how that conversation goes. It doesn't go any other way, period.

And again, I don't know what's real and what's Memorex here. So I have no idea. So that would be the way I would view it. Anything. And so everything, any kind of effects that they don't have evidentiary value would be released along with the body. Like wedding room. What about a cell phone? I got to tell you, if I'm an investigator.

I want cell phone. He's a murder victim. Right. Someone might have texted him, said no message. Yeah. I mean, cell phones are the new crime scene. I mean, that's the world that we're in now.

Every cell phone plays some role. Do you think it falls below the standard to hand the phone to the life? If you're in law enforcement, yeah, I do. Yeah. I mean, the ME shouldn't have anything to do with the cell phone. I mean, the body comes in with a cell phone. In case like this, hey, you know, you guys need to get back up here.

We got a cell phone. Gotcha. We'd like for you to. But you think the police should have retained possession of the cell phone. Yes. Period. Yeah. Absolutely.

Is there anything in the timeline here in this 24 hours, Baron, that you need more clearance on as far as what Joseph's laid out? No. I mean, I think it's, I think you've done an excellent job. Oh, well, thank you. Genuinely. Thank you. Yeah. It was enlightening because I've never been to an autopsy.

I've never seen the results of an autopsy. I've seen pictures. I've seen read, you know, passages, but I've never seen it front to back like that. That was interesting. Well, it's fascinating to me, you know, just on this side, to be able to participate in this. So thank you all.

Oh, we still got some more here. Yeah, I know. But I'm just saying from to be able, no, no, no, just to lay this out, though, because my preference is for everybody should understand how the process works. And for years and years, people have always been so guarded, you know, about what goes on in the morgue, how it's processed. Because either people are offended by it or they just don't want to hear about it, but you need to know how this works. And that's an important.

This is a key to this. I also do want to say, Baron, I really, really appreciate you doing this second one today as well. Because, to be honest with you, I really felt sick to my stomach after the last podcast because I really felt sick to my stomach after the last podcast because I, I'm not the expert on this case. And frankly, I accidentally hung Joseph out the drive with a couple things on the case. I'm dead serious. And it made me really sick to my stomach. And the blame was going at you publicly.

And it should have been going at me. And so to be able to do this with like the preeminent litigator, like public litigator on the case in this way is extremely helpful. And this is, in my opinion, I hope people out there agree this is going great with laying out the details. So you can blame me for the last one there, but now we can actually go through everything. So timeline there is set up. Obviously, once he's taken Arizona and it's a whole funeral situation now at this point, the evidence process is finished. Whatever's been fucked up has been fucked up.

Well, it's been collected. It's certainly not finished. Yeah. I'm sorry. Yeah. So the collection, meaning like using his body as a piece of evidence to get everything you're going to need for any later testing or stuff like that has been done. Yep, yep, you're on target with that. Yes, it is.

And that's the key here because once the body's gone out the door, the body's gone out the door, you know, you can't unring the bell at that point. So you have to make sure that everything you're going to collect, everything that you need, you have acquired at that point in time. So yes. The next thing we've now gotten, because, again, there's a lot of things that we're leading up to Charlie being killed, that Baron obviously looks into heavily. that's not your space.

We're talking about it from the investigation standpoint here. So that stuff obviously refer to Barron's channel, as usual, everybody. But when we're talking about this rooftop video that I know you've had a chance to see now that got released, I guess, last week by Candice and you've broken it down on your show, Barron. Do we have this ready to go, right?

So what had happened was they played a video in court that then was misrepresented by sort of, certain people in court coming outside of the preliminary hearing. We've already been through this, Joseph. And now Candace Owens has released a video that I believe, Baron, she got from law enforcement. Is that correct? I have no idea where she got it.

Okay. Don't hold me to that. I want to say that's what she said in this episode, but people in the comments help out here. That is basically like a closer rendering of this video to where we can actually see the figure on the rooftop in a better range, if you will. It's still foggy in the sense that you can't see there. actual face. But we'll play the video right now, what you can observe on it and Barron, you and I had a chance to go through this on the last episode, but what you can observe is that the person on the rooftop, whether it's Tyler Robinson or not, does not appear to have a limp,

as Tyler Robinson did, does not appear to be hiding, what is it, a three foot gun in... Three and a half. Yeah, it should be longer. Yes, longer than three. Three and a half foot gun in his pants. He's moving carefully. He also then this individual is able to do, if I may say, what appears to be a pretty perfectly executed military crawl once he gets down onto the ground and then is able to get into some sort of position where we cannot see him maneuver a three and a half foot gun quickly onto the ground and then is doing a signal as well we see like a bright flash again we're going to look at this in a second and we also see that there's no evidence that a three and a half foot gun is whipped around for him to get up and then run off of the actual roof and we do not see

evidence of an actual trigger pull as well. Maybe it happened, but you cannot tell on this video. So let's let it play for people. And then, Baron, if you want to add in any commentary as this is playing of like what you were seeing, that that might be helpful as well. Go ahead, Dief. So he's going down into position. That's the... I think this flash we're about to see. I think people have pretty demonstrably figured out it's a windshield. A windshield. A windshield? Yeah. Okay. So that wouldn't be coming from him. That's coming from someone else. So that's the military crawl right there. And on the way to this, he was not limping.

But here's the military crawl demonstration. But see how he's holding the gun out to the side when he's crawling the guy on the right? Yep. I don't see that in the guy on the left. I don't see that either. And that's the windshield you're talking about right there. Yeah, I think people have, because they saw it sequentially coming towards that person and the timing ends up. I don't know definitively.

There's the military belly crawl. some sort of flipping out of something I don't know what that is it looks to me like a mat or something he crawls up on but I honestly don't know but I still don't see a gun and he

lies down in the prone position and then we don't see that I can tell another movement until he gets up to run and this is all in real timing and they're not skipping any frames here or anything this is just straight through so he's lying down Maybe he's been still for 10 seconds, give or take.

And it's hard to tell, but, like, again, I don't see an enormous weapon being maneuvered right there. Yeah, I think the absence of the weapon really comes out when you see him get up and run. And that's going to be in a second right here. Those are all cars, obviously, moving in the background right there. That's below the roof. Yeah, there gets up to go. And I just don't see a gun. I don't see it either.

Like, I saw a bag or a... a towel or a mat or something flapping around. Three and a half foot gun. Three and a six is a big gun. It's robust. I took a bunch of rifles out in my front yard and tried to recreate that crawl. Do it begin with my neighbor? Do we have video of that?

Not released. Nor will you see it. No, we're getting that video. But it was a feat. I mean, it's not something you're going to do with a 30 out six on the first try, I don't think. And I'm not the most unathletic person I've ever encountered. Tyler looks significantly less athletic than I think I am. But it's it, you hold, you have to hold it out to kind of counterbalance as you go.

Most of the military, if you, I can't recall, I don't, this weapon wasn't equipped with a sling, was it? Didn't have a sling. It didn't have it in the pictures. Okay. So if he, if it had a sling, devil's advocate. Because you'd hook your, yeah. You'd hook your index finger through the sling with military, even with like low crawling like this. They teach you to hook your finger and you're, you know, you.

You turn your head from the side, you know, like this. And the side crawl thing, I've never seen anybody do that. I'm assuming they do it. I've never seen anyone do that. Yeah, I have an odd. Hey, let me ask you something, because from a forensic standpoint, one of the things I'd be very interested in this. And we've talked about this in a couple of other cases that it's come into play now in the digital world. If they have this video, there's a couple of things I'm interested in.

First off, when we have those facial shots of, you know, where he's allegedly coming up and down, stairwell or whatever it is. I wonder if they did biometrics on those if FBI has applied biometrics to this. With this in particular, I'd be very interested if they're going to do forensic gate analysis here, which is something that we see with like where we have CCTV, like there's a couple of cases I've covered where somebody came into somebody's apartment, kill them. I've covered on body bags extensively and then they just kind of vanish and you can actually see them in profile walking. Comes to mind the case up in Ohio where the dentist traveled to Ohio, I think he was a dentist and killed the husband and wife in their home and you can

see him walking down the alley and, you know, gate analysis was they were talking about that. So how you move, right? And so FBI does gate analysis. And it's something that's been used in medical circles for a long time because they do occupational therapy, physical therapy, you know, how are you moving up against a gridded wall, gives you an idea of movement. You can see if the individual, when we talk about footprints, we talk about pronate, supinate, all those sorts things, the stride distance. And those are things that might be measurable here. I don't know, but if they got their hands on the video, that'd be a question.

If there's any question about identity here, I think that's something that they... I never considered that. Yeah, it's just gate analysis. You can, you know, and it's not my bailiwick, but I'm just saying I'm aware of it. And then what about the guns?

So the gun he abandoned in the woods, was it right by there? That's the official narrative. That's the official narrative. That he jumps off the roof with a rifle, runs across the street, turns right, goes, I don't know if he goes into the trees,

immediately or down the road, but then dumps it, I don't know, six, eight, ten feet off the road or something. And like a rookie cop or something found it? Yeah. Okay. From an evidence standpoint of the gun, what's the custody you want there? And then what are you most looking for it to be able to actually match it? As few hands on this weapon as possible. Whoever found it, they secure it where it is, photographs it in place. period. Like you call it crime scene, you quadrant off that area. We found a weapon. We don't know if it is the weapon. You photograph it there because I probably whoever found the weapon, they may have, and I don't mean this in a negative way. Okay. Don't misread what I'm saying.

They may have manipulated the covering in some way just to verify. Like they may have picked it up and moved it. So if they moved it, if they moved the towel that the thing is wrapped in, you have to note that. So the finder, which would be this officer, the finder, did you touch the towel? Did you touch the surface of the weapon anyway? Did you touch the shrubs? Anything around it. You'd be looking, and even depending upon how, I don't know, soft as area is,

did you disrupt anything here as far as like potential footprints? Is there mulch nearby where there's impressions into the surrounding area? So I'm just thinking right now out loud, what types of things are you going to be looking for that could be connected to the weapon and the space that it occupies? And even like- Would that be documented that they asked those questions? Yeah. And it should be documented photographically because let's just say we have a weapon here in the middle of the table laid out before us. Again, one of the reasons we follow the points of the compass, I want to know points of,

ingress and egress, like if you're putting it here, how did you get to that point? What's the most obvious path that you would have taken? I want to take a photograph, you know, showing that. I might even put somebody in the photograph for scale, perhaps, I don't know. Just and certainly a marker, you know, those yellow markers that we use. You've got one that is clearly marked with an end on it that demonstrates north, right? So you take a photograph of that and it gives you kind of an orientation. So I'd want to document it in place and really handle this thing very gingerly.

Package it very carefully. I don't think I would want to remove the towel until I got it to a very secured area. I would just want to gently lift it up, place it in to probably a gun box. Secured area, meaning not at the crime, not at the scene. I want to, yeah, I don't want to remove it. I don't want to change or alter anything in it on it. And by this time, you already know you're talking about a firearm-related death, right? I mean, how many times you're walking through the woods?

Oh, look, there's a 30-0-6 rifle laying on. You can kind of make this kind of logical connection. So you want to touch this thing, you want to handle it like it's radioactive, right? You don't want to disrupt it in any way. You want to preserve it, photograph document, measure it. You want to measure it from all different points. and then secure it and then be able to have very specific accountability to who is in this chain of custody and where did it go?

Did it go to an evidence room or did they drive it directly to the state crime lab and hand it off to the technology? So the testimony was that it was unwrapped at the scene. It was made safe at the scene, meaning they pulled the bolt, unloaded it, and then photographed it. That's when they photographed it. I understand the making safe thing because, you know, you don't know. But those procedures or those steps would have to be specifically annotated. I'd have to know who made it safe. I'd have to know what their experience is with this weapon or weapon platform.

What areas of the weapon did, talking to the person that made it secure, where did you touch this weapon? you know, how many points of contact are there on the surface from your hands to this? Were you gloved when you handled it? Now, I'm assuming that they would have been gloved, okay? That's a big assumption. And I'm not talking about the gloves that you wear, that a beat cop would wear the leather gloves that kind of protect their hands.

You know, I'm talking about, did you latex up? Okay. Do you have actual gloves on? Who else touched it? Did other people come over and inspect it? Because there's a problem with looky-lose many times with other police officers. Hey, let me see. Well, one of the interesting things I noticed about it was there were two sets of,

there were two photographs that were released of it. One was in the dark and it was bolt side up or bolt handle side up. And the other was in the light and it was handle side down. So is that even remotely normal that it would be outside in an evidence box at the scene in daylight and at night? and then you're flipping it over? Yeah, that's a good point, Baron. I think that it all depends on how long it took them

relative to available daylight, how long it took them to process the scene and collect this. You know, how... Well, they found it like two hours before sunset. Yeah, so how long did it take them to process it and remove it from the scene? But when I say process it, I'm not talking about like checking for DNA

or dusting or anything like that stuff. I'm just talking about processing. it more accurately, how long did it take them to document it? Like the position of it, orientation to spatial orientation, directional orientation, all these sorts of things that you have to consider. And then the surrounding area. And then where did you clear this weapon? Did you clear it physically where you recovered it from?

Did you walk back to your squad car and clear it there? How many people watched you clear it? If you cycle that round out of there, which, you know, we've been told that, that the spent round was the casing was still in place. And I have to know this because if you have ejected this round, now you've created new marks on the surface of the casing. You have ejector and extractor marks so that when you cycle that bolt, every time it grabs the base of that, it pulls it back.

So it drags alongside. of the casing itself. And then when you cleared it, did you eject it up into the air and it dropped to the ground? Or did you? Carefully. Cycle the boat very carefully and then physically remove it like this, very careful.

And would that have been documented every step of the way? Oh, with photographs? I would hope that. Oh, with photographs? Good question. Because I think it would be easy if you're framing someone I'm not suggesting that's what they did

But if you're framing someone it'd be easy to say Oh we found all this in the gun Yeah yeah yeah rather than oh look there's a gun And here's it in the box and here's the towel unrolling And here's the bolt opening Oh look we saw this here's the bolt coming out Yeah it's one guy in the book depository building Yeah precisely there's that classic I was just thinking about this

There's a classic video of the guy Holding the Krikano over his head like this and he doesn't have gloves and this is the weapon we recovered you know and he's holding did did they have fingerprint technology back then yeah yeah they did and of course they they didn't have DNA though no no we we knew about DNA but we didn't it didn't have forensic utility but you know they they claim that they you know they had uh oswald's palm print i think on the surface of that weapon You know what I think we forgot to bring up was because we skipped over it because we'd already done the Colvette tweet in both of your podcast. But if it is to be believed that there was a bullet pulled from him, it was the surgeon that pulled out the bullet or claims he pulled out the bullet.

Who's supposed to take possession of that? And is that sent along if that's the case? Is any bullet remains sent along with the ME so that they can examine it next to the body? So if a round is extracted by a surgeon, the police department will go directly there to take possession of that, take possession of a projectile and any kind of fragments that they were. If there was a surgical procedure done with a surgeon digging around in there, yeah, that's something that the police would have taken possession of. Now, it doesn't mean that forensic pathologists do not see recovered weapons or ammo because they do. I've had any number of cases involving like hammer attacks, knives, where the police will have collected these items and they'll bring them to the item. And we do it for comparison sake.

Like if we have a hammer injury, it's a claw hammer. You've got the claw marks. And, you know, we'll reflect the scalp and everything. If there's damage, there's classic photograph that floats around. But we do this. where you kind of show the business end of the hammer compared to like a depressed skull fracture. But what's the ME going to learn from a fragmented round?

Nothing. Okay, that has been removed from the body by somebody else. I'm very specific here. Now, the ME, if they're removing the round or the fragments of the round, going back to the X-ray, if they recovered that, they're going to lay each individual fragment out in the morgue on that blue, the blue sheet, and they will take photographs of that along the way.

And then it's then taken and submitted either to a police officer that's there present in the morgue or the ME personnel will package that, and their investigators will take it and submit it directly to the state crime lab. Now, what the state crime lab does with that, I don't know. They could, in this case, I think that it's been kicked up to two federal agencies. I've heard the FBI and the ATF. I don't know why it was in that order because I prefer ATF than FBI because alcohol, tobacco, and firearms. And so what did the state do with it? What do the people do with it?

I'm referring to all of the fragments. You know, how did that chain of custody work? I don't know. maybe you have insight into that, but that would be something that would be collected, you know, at autopsy, and those would be submitted and packaged. I would imagine, because you're not going to want them clinking around with one another. So if you get one fragment, that's, they would label it as projectile or they might call it bullet. I hate using term bullet, but bullet frag one, bullet fragged one, bullet fragged two, bullet fragged

And it's also going to have the decedent's a session number on there as well. So each one of those would be submitted. She said she got it. The federal lady that testified said she got it in a manila envelope. And that there were seven fragments extracted from the body, but she only got four. And she doesn't know what happened to the other three. Lovely. Is that unusual?

Well, they're saying that there are seven fragments extricated. My question is, where are the? the other three fragments, that's a reasonable question to ask, right? I think so. And trying to understand, you know, what those fragments look like, what state it is, and also their total weight. Because one of the things that we're curious about here is how much in grains did this projectile, if, you know, I'm thinking about, let's just, I'm just pulling a number out here because

I don't know how many grains these weighed, but let's just say it's 150, 150 grain. So if it's, if you have the point of origin where X box of ammo, these rounds, the projectiles are supposed to weigh 150 grains. Well, if I got fragments that in total come up to 119, I have to ask the question. where's the rest of that mass? Where does it exist? Some of it could be dust distributed into the body. It could be fragmented.

Would that be an appreciable quantity that would add up to? Perhaps and it would be really hard to quantify, I think. Because you know how I talked about this is why x-rays are so important? Because if the thing shatters and you get the lead storm like I refer to, I'll go ahead and tell you right now that you're not going to recover every single one of those fragments because some of them will be kind of caught up in the tissue. They could, you might not be able to physically, you know, observe them to retrieve them.

So, yeah, some of that stuff can be left in the body, and I've seen it left in the body. Have you ever been in a situation, whether it was a high profile case or one that maybe you didn't think of first was a high profile case, where you felt unduly pressured by anyone else involved in the investigation, whether that be law enforcement or anyone involved in the chain of, custody to hurry things along when you did not want to have it hurried along or you know even in

worst case scenario come to a desired result because that's what happened here the latter yes i've had that feeling before i've never the former i've never really in my experience this is just i'm just one little slice of the pie you know so um i've never felt necessarily rushed I've had friends, colleagues across the country, you know, dependent upon what political interest is and all that sort of stuff. And because, you know, we're in the medical legal world, we're politically agnostic we're supposed to be. You know, we're swall like medical examiners

as opposed to thinking about corners that are elected officials. They're not dependent upon who's going to come to the polls and who's going to vote them in and that sort of thing. You kind of, that becomes nil at some point in time. So you're supposed to play it right down the middle. And I have been in, you know, where it's like, we think it's this. You know, it's like, cool, I'm glad you do. Shut the fuck up and get out of it.

Yeah, I mean, and I try to be more diplomatic than that. But there are. You got to remember, I've heard the off-camera stories. I don't know about that. Well, no, I mean, it's, you know, it's an interesting position to be in, particularly when you're talking about a death investigation. And automatically, you know, your default position is, what the hell is your motivation? What difference does it make to you?

You know, well, you know, you're trying to make a case or they're trying to make a case or whatever the case might be. That's redundant. But you just sally forth and, you know, try to understand what the body is telling you and what the evidence is revealing to you. And, you know, as they say, let the hide come with a hair, you know. I've never heard anyone say that. I've never heard that either, but I was going to let it out.

That's another pepawism. My grandpa used to say that. Let the hide come with a hair. So there you go. What are we missing here, Baron? I don't know, man. I think he was thorough. I really do.

I genuinely appreciate you sitting down. Of course, man. I enjoyed this. This is a blast. I can't think anything else that we hadn't talked about. There's a lot of things, though, I'm thinking about replaying some things you asked today that it's like, well, that burden of proof better be met. Yeah, that's why I kept asking about the standard. I wasn't trying to put you in a seat of judgment.

I'm just genuinely curious. What is the medical standard here? Yeah, I'm just, you know, I think the retention of the bone, I think is a big deal because as you've well stated, you know, this, we're talking about a massive destructive event here. your photographs are fine. That's all cool. Good for you. But do you still possess physical evidence of this? And one other thing we cannot forget. And well, I can't.

I got to remain mindful of this. This is not going to trial. This guy is not convicted. And in the world in which, regardless of how you feel, if there was evidence to be collected and he has a team of experts. They have just as much right to see this evidence as anybody else. I would rather see the powers that be go over the top and be generous to the in the sense of because a lack of cooperation and generosity can get a case overturned in the future. If that's your goal as a

prosecutor, my door's open man. Discovery. You can get what you want. The ME should say you have access to me. He doesn't, they don't have a dog in a fight. They're just, they're not trying to prosecute anybody. They're just presenting their results. Um, and come talk. Let's have a conversation about it. If the, uh, if the defenses expert wants to come in and chat with the forensic pathologist from the state. Yeah, sure. Come on down. That happens. That does happen. Come on down. You know, you're a colleague. Come on in. Let's have a conversation. Doesn't mean, you know, they're not going to start throwing down or anything. They have their view of it and they, you know,

and prosecution has their view. As, you know, Baron pointed out, and rightly so, you can take a bit of science and you can have multiple views of it. Right? Yeah. And it's all about probability. Is this possible that this could have happened this way? Yes, but here's another possibility.

So there you go. And Jerry has to make a call. Yes, they do. It's on them. God bless them. Wherever they are, wherever they're doing. Well, I know you're going to keep covering it each step of the way. So everyone check out Barron's live streams.

By the way, doing that live and like just right off the cuff, three and a half hours every time, hour and a half all by yourself and then rolling with people. Very, very impressive. So it's been a great couple days having you in here. Thank you so much for doing it again. Thank you for having me. It's been fun. Of course.

Of course. And Joseph, thank you for coming in town so quickly again. Oh, no worries. It's nice for bringing me up. It's been a treat to meet Baron and hang out. Yeah, this was great. I mean, this went. I knew it was going to go well when we talked on the Zoom call, but like, holy shit, you guys knocked this out of the park today. So everyone can check out Barron's channel. You can subscribe down below to follow along with the entire case and other things that Baron talks about as well. And if you'd like to check out Joseph's channel and his show body bags on there, that will also be linked down below. So as always, give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace.

What's up, guys? Thanks so much for watching the video. If you have not subscribed, please hit that subscribe button before you leave, as well as leaving the like on the video. It's a huge, you chelp. You could join my Patreon via the link in the description, and you can also join my clipping community via the Discord link down below.

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