Julian Dorey Podcast - #58 - Justin Baker: DATA PRIVACY; ANTITRUST IN TECH; EXTREMISM; ORGANIZED RELIGION; THE TRUE MEANING OF SCIENCE; SOLVING DEATH

Episode Date: July 29, 2021

  Justin Baker is the Co-Founder & CTO of Soar, a spatial technology company that specializes in AR/VR and compression innovation. The company’s mission is to make volumetric technology (like holograms) a central part of our everyday lives. ***TIMESTAMPS*** 7:52 - The data question; Immersive Tech; Apple Tracking Opt-Out 20:21 - Using the phone to view holograms vs. Hardware Capabilities being used to develop experiences; Why there aren’t a lot of volumetric capture (Volcap) companies 33:50 - The transition from a 2D to 3D world in comparison to what happened in the music industry; Gamified everything; Selection 230 and Cancel Culture; Divide and Conquer Power Structure in society 45:29 - Jeff Bezos, Amazon, and the Antitrust question; Monopolies and Oligopolies; Everyone on the internet has an opinion     56:39 - Gender & The LGBT Community discussion; Baker explains Quantum Entanglement to Julian 1:03:03 - “There is inherent good and evil in everything”; Organized Religion debate; Religions and Cults discussion; The actual meaning of the word “Science” and why many on the internet have no idea what they’re talking about 1:22:22 - “We live in extremes”; Why people don’t want to be wrong and what effect that has on discourse; How a multi-planetary system could solve the problem of extremes 1:38:50 - Narcissism and Social Media 1:45:21 - Groupthink in the tech community; Participation trophies and winning vs. losing today 1:56:46 - “Money Runs the world” through the lens of the NBA China example 2:03:16 - Apple’s stances on Privacy; Facebook and their VR future (via Oculus); How close are we to full VR adoption?; Mark Zuckerberg’s track record 2:20:02 - Edward Snowden’s Claims and Apple’s Privacy reputation conundrum; Why you can’t have it both ways; Capitalism vs. Socialism 2:43:33 - Baker’s ultimate Dream; Solving Death; Space, Robots, and the Incoming Generation of Man vs. Machines ~ YouTube EPISODES & CLIPS: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0A-v_DL-h76F75xik8h03Q  ~ Get $100 Off The Eight Sleep Pod Pro Mattress / Mattress Cover: https://eight-sleep.ioym.net/trendifier  Julian's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey  ~ Beat provided by: Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We live in extremes, you know, at our core, we're the most of people are, are binary people. And I mean, I'll obviously not talk about the gender aspect of that. But the fact that you're a zero or one, you play on a spectrum. And you have the extreme, you have the extreme. Yes. We should live in the gray in the middle 98%. know it's cool acknowledging the extremes outside of that be open what's cooking everybody i am joined in the bunker today by mr. Justin Baker. Baker is a co-founder of the company Soar, which you may remember I had in the other two co-founders, so now we've had all three. I had in Anthony Fenu and Riley Horvath for numbers 30 and 50, respectively, and now we have Baker here at number 58. This guy is the CTO of the company, so he's the engineer who is in there building

this stuff every day. And for those of you who didn't hear those previous two episodes and aren't familiar with Soar, Soar is a startup that produces live streamed holograms. They have the software that can produce that. And that is exactly what it sounds like. And it's pretty insane. And they're going to bring these futuristic movies we've seen for years now to the world pretty damn soon. Like it's kind of happening. So Baker and've had a chance to bring these guys in here while they're on that journey so that this is not only content that's wild to listen to right now while we're thinking about this world these guys are trying to craft every day but also five ten years from now we can look back on these episodes and be like damn that's that's where they were

or like yo that's what they were thinking or oh wow this they were right about this or wrong about that like there's there's so much in there that is going to be able to be picked apart in in in a good way so to be able to do that in the bunker here is has been awesome and and as i said with the previous two i'll say it once again with with justin here i'd look forward to having him in here again i mean this guy is intelligent as hell i mean he's just it'll come across right away but you know we had a lot of laughs we were having a good old time but also i mean he fried my brain a few times he just he builds these arguments that should take a normal person 20 minutes he can do it in like three minutes succinctly and brilliantly and i'm just

like oh my god like so i love when someone can come in and kind of fry my brain and that's exactly what happened and it also makes for great, great content. One quick note on the episode itself, the first five to ten minutes, you will hear that Baker's voice is a little softer. I couldn't tell while we were recording that he was a little bit far away from the mic at first, so then he moved in and it got better. I didn't want to get rid of that first part because we introduced like some pretty good topics to set the stage. So I left it, but just bear with me there

and the rest of it should be pretty good and balanced. Now, if you have not used the link in my description along with the code TRENDIFIRE at checkout to purchase your 8 Sleep Pod Pro mattress or 8 Sleep Pod Pro cover. As I say every week, you should consider it. Not just because it helps yours truly here and it's helping with the earliest parts of paying the bills, but 8 Sleep is the first real tech company to really actually try mattresses instead of a mattress company trying tech, which has never really worked. Let me focus on the second of the two products though. So I said the mattress right there. And at the front, I said the mattress and the cover, the cover is what I want to keep the

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sleeps customer service team is phenomenal like they are phenomenal so they're great to deal with if you need any help or need clarification points whatever you can call them up and and they're great so give that a try and get $100 off using that link in my description along with the code TRENDOTFIRE at checkout. Anyway, if you're not subscribed, please subscribe. We are on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube. And if you're on YouTube right now, hit that subscribe button, hit that bell button, and leave a like and comment on the video if you would, please. To everyone who has been doing the word of mouth thing every week and passing along the podcast to

a friend who enjoys podcasts, please keep doing it. It's amazing. Like, it's working. I see it. I get hit up by people. They tell me that's how they found it. There are certainly a lot of people, like, I'd still say the majority of people find me on TikTok, but now I have a clear second opening there that's starting to happen with people, by the way, by and large, who found me on TikTok sharing the podcast with their friends and their friends are now listening to it. And that is unreal. Word of mouth is the number one piece of marketing in anything. I don't care what anyone tells you. It's the most powerful thing. And so I'm pretty honored that people have taken it upon themselves to do that. Even before I was starting to encourage this, I guess like maybe five, six weeks ago, something like that. It's, it is an enormous,

enormous help. So to everyone who's done that, thank you. Please keep doing it. Like you guys are amazing. And if you haven't done that yet, and you have some friends who like podcasts and they haven't heard of this one, if you can pick out your favorite episode or maybe this one, maybe it's the most recent, and send it to them to give it a try, I think they're going to like it. If they're your friend and you're listening to the podcast, I think they're going to like it. So once again, thank you to everyone who's done that and to everyone who hasn't. If you want to join the party, that would be awesome. That said, you know what it is. I'm Julian Dory, and this is Treader. Let's go. This is one of the great questions in our culture. Where's the news?

You're giving opinions and calling them facts. You feel me? Everyone understands this, but few seem to do it. If you don't like the status quo start asking questions those are the guys that they're gonna find their way into something really fucking cool and you want to be there when they do it's all about the company you keep you know quality over that quantity and that's the thing that has crushed me about the the whole social media age is everyone's trying to Live the highlight reel And that highlight reel is you know out there for millions and millions of people to see and you you corrupt people like that

It's gonna be interesting to see what the next decade brings Because now that we're really in the thick of it and people are sort of wise enough to it's like, you know What happens from here? I'll have the answer and you're not a social know what happens from here i don't have the answer and you're not a social media guy right you don't have any of it none of it did you ever have any of it had a facebook uh oh gee oh yeah yeah yeah yeah never had myspace had a facebook um for a little bit back maybe 10 10 12 years ago uh that's long gone so you were there for the dawn of michael spears political rise yes i was very quick to get onto facebook and then leave facebook uh i never had the i think that was the moment that i said uh i never wanted to hop back onto a platform like

that never dealt with instagram dealt with snapchat and i do respect snapchat from the perspective of a tech company because i think what they do and what research they do and uh you can just see in the acquisitions they make they they're a little bit more than you know the company that allows you to send 10 second nudes that that's interesting though because when we all look at them like the general public and we're not behind the scenes like you we see a lot of the same things at the major companies the ones who won you know you talk instagram snapchat facebook whatever but like what makes snapchat far more effective in your mind behind the scenes when it comes to tech and what they invest in versus say what facebook's doing through instagram because you know you see a lot of filters and stuff there too which is what i know you're at least primarily concerned with

right um if we're doing a one-to-one snapchat and instagram and you know putting that in a vacuum ignoring facebook and that facebook reality uh uh, part of the company. Uh, I just think on its face, they're both kind of, uh, appealing to the lowest common denominator of let's create these really simple, artificial, superficial, uh, experiences. And I think that's kind of by design and why they've, they've kept on that pace is they're getting people used to the, excuse me, the concept of, uh, immersive, I guess. Uh, but what do you, what do you mean by immersive content? That isn't like the dancing hotdog, I guess is like the one I go to, uh, that is the, I guess the Miley Cyrus of immersive, I guess I would liken it to,

which is important because at the end of the day, mass adoption is, is what's critical. Yes. And if you don't have that, you have nothing, you have a cool little tech thing and that's it. I appreciate Snapchat and Instagram from that perspective of getting people used to the technology, like as Apple drips, stuff like that from, you know, spatial audio to AR kit and all that stuff. But how they go about taking user information and how they go about enabling these influencers, I'm not a fan of, and I never will be. Okay.

I want to come back to the influencer thing because that was a nice left hook there at the end. But the point before that is probably more interesting on my part but the data point because i agree with you that these platforms and it's not just them it's a part of the overall system you know you look what the government's been able to do for a long time snowden shout out to our boy but you look at the the viewpoint they can have into all of our lives and technically we do on the platforms for example click the terms of service and allow them to do it but no one fucking reads those of course obviously but it does require that to give it requires you giving data to get certain utility uh the platform like the people becoming the product. And the reason I ask you about it is because when we're talking about what SOAR can do, and we'll get into that for people that

didn't hear number 30 or number 50 with Anthony and Riley, who are your co-founders. Soar, you guys are a hologram company. But in order to put out the tech that you have the ability to do, it does require you to get a lot of data from people. So I think there's a difference between acquiring data and handling data. I think the acquisition of data is a rather important thing. This is how we train neural networks, machine learning models. It's all about how you handle that data. Uh, some companies a little better than others. Um, I am a hundred percent against targeted advertising. Um, I understand why people, uh, take the data and leverage data and use it in that way. You know,

it makes a shit ton of money and I get that, but i think that we're seeing a change especially now with apple enacting their uh their uh tracking uh mechanism that allows people to basically opt out of this uh specific advertising i actually don't know about that yes yeah and this is the whole thing about facebook running ads saying in a nicest way as possible, uh, Hey, you know,

click that button to let us track you because you want the most relevant ads, of course. And Apple's all about, no, we want to give, we don't want to necessarily stop it. We want to make sure users are aware that you're doing this and that they can opt into it or they can opt out of it.

Cause I think the acquisition of data is important. Uh, but also the type of data uh i always like into to you know if we we draw a parallel from the digital world to the physical world would you be okay with somebody following you on the street uh basically writing down everything you're doing seems harmless because you know what's the worst that comes out of that and like you're not a criminal so like it doesn't matter but at the same time i don't want people knowing everything about me yeah you know it's a it's a privacy thing and you know i don't want to get lost in like some of the minutia around it because then it gets far above my pay grade for what, you know, to the world that you kind of understand. But I still don't see how, you know, you can get around the fact that, okay, maybe you're not collecting what everyone's doing at all times,

or like the things they like, or their information in that way. But in order to create a 3D representation of someone live streamed, and if that's going to become – if your software is going to be adopted as the thing that the world uses, you do have to get where they are and what their surroundings are. And that is significant information. And just as like a little context, I always use this example just to think of the veracity of tech over – I don't know if that's the word, but like the growth of tech over time and how crazy it is. But think about in the end of 2001. So what's that, 20 years ago? We were using technology back then. and the al-qaeda guys were recording like in the caves they were measuring the phosphorus and shit in the rocks on the camera behind them to determine what part of the mountains out in

whatever the fuck really yeah yes so think about we had that then think about the data abilities and what the power of that tech is now and like you have an understanding of that right for so i still think about it like okay maybe we're not collecting who a person's personality is but we're collecting everywhere they are right which is inevitable i think with the evolution of technology uh which at this point the evolution of man is outpaced by the evolution of technology. And I think that's a good thing because that's how we see these, uh, giant leaps. Um, and that's, that's really great and all. Uh, but we're at a point where you don't have privacy anymore. It's just not a thing you're going to get. It's all about who you trust to handle your data and what kind of data you're

cool exposing, uh, you know, email address, uh, maybe phone number, your name, that's all fine stuff. Um, but you know, now that we're getting into, I guess this sort of more immersive future, um, are people going to be okay, you know, potentially wearing a, uh, mixed reality headset that is basically like another eyeball that can see out. Uh, would you be okay wearing that? I mean, I'm going to walk around with it. Are other people going to be walking around? I mean, just think of this. I mean, I know Facebook is partnering with, uh, Ray-Ban. Yeah. Yeah. We talked about that. Imagine just, yeah, yeah. I guess the makers of ray-ban um

yeah imagine where something like that i mean obviously it's gonna be a form factor that feels fine and it's light enough you know maybe a couple ounces at most to uh you know walk in public uh and basically have a uh computing platform that you know just you're able to engage with that. I'd be okay with efficiently. Yeah. That'd be, I thought you were talking about for a second,

like the full blown headsets when you see the motherfuckers like in their living room, like that in the wall and shit, this is all. Yeah. I mean, that is the state of where we're at right now. We do have a handful of companies,

uh, both publicly and not that are creating these, uh, this hardware. That's a much, much, much slimmer form factor.

Uh, so like no one's gonna be walking in the streets with a hollow lens on or a magic leap, you know, something that you have a tethered computer to your, uh, waist. And then you have, you know, these big, what looks like work goggles on your head. We will get into an all-in-one computing platform, uh, pretty soon. Uh, what do you mean by that? Essentially, you know, a pair of sunglasses that have, uh, the power of your, pretty soon. Uh, what do you mean by that? Essentially, you know, a pair of sunglasses that have, uh, the power of your, your iPhone. So no more Apple watch, no more iPhone in your hand. Well, I think we're seeing, I iPhone in the hand, I don't think it just magically vanishes,

but if we look at the, the suite products say apple has right the watch is a very important uh piece of hardware i think in my opinion uh it's more of a health-based piece of hardware something that you can use uh and they have a lot of new features coming out some of the leaks for the next watch are pretty pretty interesting with regards to glucose monitoring and stuff like that uh i think the watch the airpods you know especially the pros that have the ability to use spatial audio plus glasses you're essentially creating this uh this hardware suite that all interact with each other and gives you a uh this immersive uh way to live i mean never mind talking about you you know, BCI's brain computer interfaces that, you know, Elon Musk wants to create where they're like a little thing

connected to your brain. Yeah, he doesn't want us talking to each other anymore. Exactly. I think it's, I don't think, I don't think I even know what the next 10 or 15 years is going to bring when it comes to what an average person looks like walking down the street you know airpods came out right and people were like oh wireless earbuds really that's that's the thing and then overnight bam they got with it exactly people are more they want something that's easy to use and gives them value and i think that's the the key to it and i think that's easy to use and gives them value. And I think that's the key to it. And I think that's why we're not going to see true immersive experiences until there is a headset-based phone.

I guess you can liken it to because pulling out your phone to create a little – or to view a little experience feels not organic. Yes, and that's actually important. Quick sidebar on that so right now the main use of your tech as you're going to your clients and they're figuring out how to integrate it is where you use it with the phone so you and i could be in here right now and you could put austin richard post right here singing and we would have to take out our phone to see him singing and we could blow him up or whatever right so yes and no i do want to say as a platform um we enable ar experiences right but at our core we're a volumetric company what that means is video that

you can essentially view from any angle and that's important for a couple of reasons. It doesn't have to be an AR or even VR. It could be just an experience in a black vacuum of a background, and you can maneuver around or manipulate the content to experience it, whether it's swing analysis or stuff like that. Not necessarily streaming Jeff Ross into your living room for a comedy concert. I think at its core,d uh content is important not just an ar vr perspective but in a perspective to uh enable more analysis you know and more experience that isn't just uh 2d i guess huh i i don't know if I fully understood can you explain that how did you say it like in a black hole or something the uh you gotta bear with me so um what the the core of what the yeah

you because you said it doesn't have to be AR it doesn't have to be VR and then you're like you could be looking at something in a black hole so in a in a black abyss or a black background of sorts so essentially is a free viewpoint video where instead of video where you're watching it on a tv screen it's a video with that extra dimension that you can manipulate around okay now we're on the same page this is what i want to ask about then. Yep. So my point was that right now, the adopted way that people could do it, if it were a normal thing that people knew existed, which is what you're doing right now, you're getting it out to public, like, hey, we can do this. Like, let's do it.

Right. They're going to be using their phones because you guys are a software company. Right. You're not a hardware company. Correct. Right. So eventually, you know, we're going to have the football game right here. But to do it without a phone, right, it's going to be through some sort of concoction like a TV, but a TV for 3D that you guys are creating the underlying language for it allowed to do it.

Yeah, that initial software for these, for the brand new hardware. So essentially imagine if apple were to release a headset and you want facetime facetime gets another dimension added to it instead of just a 2d video yes okay so we're not there yet because that requires more pieces than who you guys are but you are at the point where it's like we can do this with the phones where we have post malone or something right here right your point though was that you think the adoption of this is going to take where we have that all immersive 3d glasses so to speak that everyone just in in vogue wears around yes i mean we're we're seeing it already in enterprise and that's where a lot of stuff starts to trickle out of um but you're also seeing it uh i mean think back 10 years ago right

a long time ago yeah a very long time ago think about social media then but think about what it's become we've already enabled mixed reality experiences but people think of them as these cool snapchat filters which is great because that's the way technology evolves and you get people interested intrigued at the thought of hey this is a pretty cool thing oh and then maybe someone has a thought of oh well what if i could have uh john mayer here you know playing a little song and i can watch him uh instead of having the dancing hot dog here to give me some sort of value it's that concept and what makes you guys i understand this now but like just for everyone out there to try to get a feel for it because we'll get again and review like some of the tech we've talked about on this previous podcast but what makes you guys different from just what they did with the dancing hot dog right uh so the dancing hot dog in itself is just essentially what is the 3d model uh 3d model anything you see in like a

video game or you know really anywhere around uh i think the the even better and deeper question is how are we different than other volumetric companies yes who you probably don't know the names of uh most people don't um for a few reasons you know the cost of creating a volumetric experience now um six figures and then what you're getting out of that is i guess likened to the dancing hot dog a very gimmicky experience maybe it's someone doing a silly dance which i don't know why the people do that but it's something that doesn't bring value nor give you a return on that i guess investment if you were to spend 100 200 grand on a three or four minute experience but because that dancing just to be clear because that dancing hot

dog is not live it's just something that's built into the app through their tech. That doesn't cost of capturing something like that right now. A lot of money, a lot of hardware, big places put that hardware, a lot of processing, a lot of rendering, extremely expensive. And it's a problem that we've seen Microsoft try to solve, Google try to solve, as well as these startups that have raised anywhere from $50 to $200 million. Except those companies that have raised $50 to $200 companies have raised 50 to 200 million dollars have been trying to say hey let's let's slim down the microsoft model let's not charge a million dollars for a studio right let's try and make it bill gates charging a million dollars first he would never he also wants to put a trackers on now are you gonna go there don't go there

that is not me that is not me i know that is not me i think you were like the first vaccinated person i ever met yeah that was back in january um i thought you got earlier than that no the beginning of january i believe it was okay yeah i think so um yeah but so essentially these companies wanted to essentially create a streamlined version of that Microsoft model, you know, charge maybe a hundred grand for a studio, but still limited to the fact of this is a tremendous fucking amount of data. You know, this is, you know, terabytes and terabytes of data that you're capturing at once from, you know, anywhere from 50 to a hundred cameras. What do you do with that data? How do you get it down to a small amount of size, a small amount of file size to then put anywhere on the internet for someone to experience? And the answer was, you don't. You don't really do that. And the path we took was,

instead of going from top down, creating very high quality uh high cost studio and experience it's built from bottom up let's create a very small studio that can be purchased for you know between all the hardware of one computer which is basically a gaming rig plus you know four to eight off-the-shelf depth cameras which you know a few hundred bucks each, um, you know, spend five, six grand on this hardware. What if we could create a real time, uh, version of this that people can essentially create and stream all in real time at a level of what is essentially an HD video bit rate, you know, like 10 to 20 megabit, something you're going to stream off Netflix, uh, or, you know, any other, uh, video streaming service. What if we could do that? What kind of use cases and experiences can we unlock there?

Since no one's been able to really answer the problem of or solve the problem of, how do we enable this? How do we create that compression that allows us to not only get bit rates down to a level that anyone can stream really in this country, but retain that high quality that you would expect or very close to the high quality you'd expect out of a massive studio. And that's where we walked in.

And that's where the compression comes in because this whole point you were making at the front end of that about the problem of a lot of data, even people that aren't coders like me or in the middle of it, we all know that the higher quality something is, the more data you have to capture to do it. It's pretty common sense at this point.

But when you're talking about capturing something with six degrees of freedom where it's like you or I are standing right here and we could walk around it and not know until we put our hand through it that it's not real the amount of like it's basically like capturing every little pixel of a person's body in that case and and making it not trick the eye right so to get to that point you have to create this pipeline of what'd you say terabytes worth of data and shit right so the ability to do that live let alone alone just do it at all, it's not – you can't do that on YouTube right now with their algorithm. So you guys built that algorithm, and this is what we've talked about. But it blows my mind that three assholes in jerseys – excuse my French – put a team together and figured this out because what you guys did is you built the infrastructure for something that all these big conglomerates with the smartest people in the world at it couldn't do it's an amazing thing the cool thing about it is you know research is public

so you can actually read the papers and see all the math these guys are doing and look at it and be like there's a much simpler way to attack this problem and just do it differently. Obviously you got to have the domain knowledge of a few different industries, have the right people on your team. It's not any single person doing everything. But I think we hit timing right when it comes to a solution and application like this. You know, volumetric is a rather recent medium development, I guess you could say. People, your average person probably is not aware of it or know it from the point of they've seen something

in some massive broadcast that has been able to give you a 360 view. It's like, oh, hey, that's really cool. And it's interesting. It's just, I feel like a timing thing and the right people type of thing and yeah we are three assholes in new jersey it's amazing at the core of it i mean that is a compliment by the way it's it's amazing because i can just imagine all these guys at these desks like in silicon valley like who who figured this out what that didn't happen like they're just offended by it but you guys did and you know that whole i like the vision or the image you put on it of everyone was trying to go top down and you wanted to go bottom up by building that infrastructure

it makes a lot of sense like from what i've seen of how the tech has then progressed because okay you built the infrastructure but then it's like okay well how do we capture it you know we know the cameras you knew all the actual physical stuff like okay this could be able to do we need this type of computer but how does it look when we do it how do we now play with that how do we use this new tool we have to continue to refine this to the point where again it's not you can't really tell you can't really tell that it's not them right it's it's crazy yeah it's it's certainly an interesting uh technology and as we go through product launch these next matter of weeks working with our initial customers uh

it's going to be interesting to see the feedback we get not from just the obviously the end user that's experiencing this this medium uh but the people using it because people are or the companies that have been using volumetric i guess up until this point they're used to these massive processes these things where you spend a full day trying to capture what's essentially a few minutes of content uh but it's these massive green screen studios these massive you know a rendering farm of sorts. And then you wait two weeks, you wait a week or two and you get your content. And what it is, it's just like a little MP4 file that you can,

you know, throw anywhere. Not live, not live, not live, not live. And I'm really interested to see the feedback when it comes to creation of the content. I don't think even though we have a handful of customers on board, I don't think even though we have handful of customers on board, I don't think people really do realize how efficient and easy it is now to create content, which used to take days, weeks and hundreds of thousands of dollars for a fraction of the cost and a fraction of the time.

I mean, on a much stupider, smaller scale. It's across everything. I everything. I mean look what you're sitting in right now. I'm an asshole in New Jersey, right? Like we put together a studio, but I can have John Borak walking here Who's been in the greatest studios known to man throughout his entire Emmy-winning career, and he's like yeah, this is good You know what I mean like there's there's access to things There's an ability to as you pointed out with like coding and stuff like that it's no different with everything else it's all it's publicly available to learn yeah right so i think that the content economy we live in right now is absurdly good as far as yeah do you get a lot of people throwing shit out there sure but like the level of talent at the top and the volume at the top

is unlike anything i've ever seen which now is really interesting when you start to consider like hey we're looking at it from the 2d world right how does that now look in the 3d world right that's a moment for me and it's interesting uh and i i would say the the first domino to fall in that was probably the music industry. You know, bootlegging was always a thing. And then, you know, the whole Metallica Napster controversy. But can you give context on that? I've heard people say that before, but I don't think I've ever seen the story. A condensed version is music gets leaked.

And it's like, how do we make money? And it's not necessarily about Metallica because Metallica is very rich, influential, and you know, they're not going anywhere and their bottom dollar is fine. It's for everyone else, for the people that don't have that massive record deal or for the people that do have that massive record deal, how do they make their money back? And this is why we saw the, the, the rise of streaming services. You know, you see Spotify, you see Apple music, so on and so forth that was able to open up at least a revenue stream for people that didn't have it anymore. With that being said, we need to see the next iteration because that revenue stream is very

small. You have Spotify, you have Apple music, you have Amazon all giving, you know, a fraction of a cent for, for a play. How do creators, how do musicians survive, even though they don't have to go to a record studio or recording studio, you can, you know, create your content just in a, in a room and have it be high quality content and, and, and sound great. How do people survive there? Even though you've made it accessible, how do the creators be able to not just create, but live on that? So how does your tech, because I see what you're saying

about giving something to the people to be able to use that is accessible, it's affordable, and it allows the independent, the little guy to be able to put themselves out there. But how does your tech take away the fact that you still have to have access to the public squares? And I'll expand that because we're living in a very paradoxical time. That's definitely not a word, but we're going to roll with it. Where we have this decentralized world.

People are going remote people are able to make wealth on the internet more than anything else people are able to provide value by reaching audiences that they couldn't access if they didn't have the power of technology and the internet things like bitcoin are a major response to an instant we can talk about that sure i see your face but they're a major response at least in theory to the institutions that have fucked over people for a long time right so you see all these different patterns but then you also see massive centralization and no better example than what you started off our whole conversation with which is the fact that if you want attention you have to be on the platforms that have the attention of people, nodes who access them. So when you create your technology, what makes it

different from the fact that those people in order for people, I don't care how good the work is, people have to find them on Instagram, YouTube, Spotify, Apple, places like that. What changes for those people? Because right now that's already the battle they have. Right. We are not the ones to change that. We have these massive nodes in place because – and there's only a few of them, right? And I think we see a major consolidation. I mean Facebook owns Facebook. It's WhatsApp, whatever.

You're going to see these central points to consume content. And that's the whole thing that we saw. I hate talking politics, but everything we saw politically the last one to four years. But it's interesting that people will – we're getting the tools, and blockchain is a great technology, the ability to decentralize to an extent but until until people create more open platforms we'll never lose the the centralization of consuming content what do you mean by open platforms platforms that essentially twitter has say over their platform and that's the whole thing. Are they a publisher or are they not?

Yeah, 230, baby. You just said you don't like talking politics, but here we go. I hate talking politics because both sides are wrong. Both sides are also right. So who wins? I mean, George Washington said the division of people, the parties are going to kill us. But here we are. Wait, did he really say that?

He said that. One of the old farts said that, I think. No shit. but people you know the parties are gonna kill us but here we are i mean did he really say that he said that one of the old farts said that no um but they were right is because you have a it's gamified like everything else you know the stock market has been gamified you see robin hood they gamified it everything is becoming gamified politics are gamified why is that the the media media has has done that for clicks because no one's reading newspapers anymore no one's watching that you know the six o'clock news they've had to go to a 24-hour news cycle which is mostly op-ed as well as create these websites of content that pull you in for clicks so it's it's just I hate talking politics because it's either a gonna stir people up or b get me cancelled in

the future people are gonna come back to us be like that dude's a nutcase i think you'd be uncancellable i don't think you'd give a that's the key yeah yeah i i agree and i guess being having enough behind you and having enough i guess i hate to bring up money or wealth at a certain point but having enough behind you and having enough, I guess, I hate to bring up money or wealth at a certain point, but having enough to say, fuck you, you know, because people don't really have that ability to say, fuck you. The world we live in right now doesn't really allow you to say that outside of, you know, going on Twitter, you can say fuck you to everyone there. Cause I think people are always chasing it and that goes from bottom to top

You know, there's there's an extent to which people who are high up in media who might get cancelled or in something some kind of attention They can't handle it because they can't handle not having the attention It's not about the money though. They probably are terrible at spending it majority of the time So maybe some of it does become about, am I going to run out? You can see some crazy amounts of money that people will run out of. That's certainly a real thing. But assuming that's not the case, a lot of them are just very afraid of not being able to do that thing for other people in the future. And so they will bow down to whatever the standard is that people need

to say or think and what happens is that's what gets pushed and you bring up like the section 230 and look man i i think i don't envy the position these platforms are in minus you know the wealth that they all get you know from building them and shit like that. Minus that aside, I don't envy the position they're in because they're fucked either way. And my one thing that I'll always go back to is when you start becoming the arbiter of what goes, that's where no matter what, it's the worst case scenario because you can't, it's hard to go back from that. You know, I'll play devil's devil's advocate. I don't necessarily think these platforms are fucked. We've seen our country change over the past 10 or 15 years. And these, I don't know if it was intentional, but these companies have ridden that wave.

Oh, I don't think they're, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say if I came across that way, I don't think they're i'm sorry i didn't mean to say if i came across that way i don't think i think they have more power than yeah no i i get the the notion of being fucked in and we're fucked yes yeah yes that's what i should have said i'm sorry yeah no i'm with you it's it's it's interesting i uh i i think there's gonna have to be a massive event or a massive exodus uh of these social platforms at a certain point because they've spiraled out of control to the point that uh they're being controlled where people thought they were going to be sense of an open platform uh obviously they're

not i think a big issue with that though is it becomes an equal but opposite situation so prime example parlor was parlor started by a centrist no it was started by a right winger was pissed off at the left wing so all the right wingers went there and created a new echo chamber every reaction there's a reaction yeah it was poorly designed the whole bit and you know then it created this like war and they got beat right away to get to a true place where it's just like you know what man anything good like almost this is fucked up to say but almost like a silk road situation but like not selling drugs you know what i mean like it was just like all right we're doing drugs like everything goes like not condoning setting something like that up but the concept when it comes to information

would be great i'm just i'll admit I'm cynical about it because I think everyone has a point of view and once you once you become ingrained in that point of view it's very hard to pull yourself back and see that there are other beliefs and not by the way not for nothing I I can I feel like I can speak on that because I have been both left and right wing in my life and I know how close-minded I was when I was on both of those things. And now it's like, you know, I wouldn't call you a cynic. I call you a realist. Yeah.

You know, and not to tie in the whole red pill, blue pill thing. People just got to stop treating it like a competition. You know, we're on the same boat here. Everyone's sinking. They're just trying to make it sink faster. george washington thing you brought up though that's that's the problem like what and and if he's the one who's i'm gonna look that up after that's awesome because we do talk about that a lot if i guess on here talking about it it's a theme i like i believe that the powerful seek to divide the least powerful to remind that to keep their focus off of who's in power.

Exactly. So looking at that, that's all it is. Like it's a power company. Like did, does a billionaire need to go from one to $2 billion? No, they do it.

Cause it's the fucking game, man. At the same time, it is hilarious watching the past 18 months of the pandemic. People that absolutely shit on Jeff Bezos or any of these people thinking that their bank account is actually increasing by this amount of value every day.

And it's hilarious because we went from buying in retail at Target to buying on Amazon because everything was more efficient. Everyone was pro-Amazon years everyone was pro amazon you know years ago this is so much more efficient and then they were shitting on jeff bezos while purchasing from amazon and then complaining about his wealth look he may have had money before amazon that's all well and good but i don't like this and and it's not because I want to necessarily be a billionaire, but this treatment of billionaires acting like they are the problem, unless they're, you know, breaking laws, the system is the problem. And the system is owned

by that government. And that government are the ones that really call the shots. Why are the loopholes not closed? It's not the billionaires. I mean, I'm sure these companies could be lobbying stuff. But the core of it, you're going to hate someone. Yes. The government. Yeah.

Create a boogeyman. But create the right boogeyman. Right. Bezos, I don't want to leave that one, though, because he's such an interesting one. Oh, yeah. So before I even say this, Amazon, Amazon, Amazon, Amazon, Amazon. I'm pointing around the studio, all the things from Amazon. Amazon, Amazon, Amazon, all Amazon. The custom artwork, not Amazon, but one of the non-customs, Amazon, right?

All this Amazon. Fuck if I don't appreciate it. They're maybe the most impressive company i've ever seen them or apple for sure right and i regard jeff bezos as maybe the best businessman i've ever seen yeah right like i look at jobs is like the greatest creative in that way he's a good thinker yes yes but i look at bezos is like on the context game from wall street like he that's that his this is background and that man made a trillion dollar company like that yes in 20

years time like what it's crazy and and the the if you ever go to the history of amazon page on wikipedia it's tactical i mean like when you read through that timeline it's incredible what he did so i never want to take that away i also don't give a fuck that he's worth $150 billion or whatever it is. I don't, I really, this whole concept of just attacking people because of their net worth, I will never get behind that. That's stupid. Well, people want to blame something. They want to blame the capitalist society for, you know, being able to create billionaires.

These, they worked hard for it. That doesn't necessarily mean they're in literal coal mines working for it but they were able they didn't cheat their way to it's not like they were born into you know a billion dollars I can think of a few people but yeah of course and there's definitely a few of them out there yeah yeah but you know they they built a company that solved problems yes and then were able to get people to say hey it's a great concept i i would love to purchase an ebook here or i would like to buy my clothes if i can get them in two days here or i need x object i can get that very fast very tactical as you said that's what i don't want to tear down because that's what we do when we attack bezos they attack everything he did

despite the fact that these same people are buying their off amazon right i hate that i don't want to attack greatness that's a very stupid thing what i do get concerned with and i wasn't for a long time i'll admit i i was just like ah these people worried about bezos i look at actions right and we talk about money you know i use the example of the person that goes from a billion to two they don't do it because they need the money money they do it because of the game right it's what it's a way of keeping score right and with these for some for that's fair it's not everyone but for others it's like i want more and more and more and more with bezos he passed the point a

long time ago of the money he wants or needs in his life we can tell that mathematically amazon just keeps growing amazon just keeps growing i look at the actions along the way and that's what gives me some concern because you know look at one of the best examples ever i'm i'm a realist when it comes to government i think government is largely very very uncoordinated and and by design by design a horrible institution but it is a necessary thing I'm not one of these people who's like get rid of it no income tax I'm not I'm not there like that's ridiculous but you know one thing I'll give them credit for for sure in the context of history is look what they did with Standard Oil they saw what John and John D Rockefeller was just a great businessman i know all the fucking conspiracy theorists are going to say shit

right now but fuck off i don't care about that the fucking the shit i do know about he was a phenomenal businessman and a shark he was a shark and once they came in there they realized like oh now he's never going to stop because he only knows that we do got to control this and they did a great i want to say a great job but they did a job they did a job and it was good like they broke up those and that has maintained a decent it's an oligopoly but it's better than what it would have been a monopoly yes literally a and people throw that term everywhere now nobody nobody at least in any tech industry i see right now, has a monopoly because there's competition. It may be a consolidation of competition and you see a duopoly or a triopoly or whatever the fuck you're going to call it.

But you're going to see a few. It's like there's a reason why there's essentially two or three phone choices. You have Apple. You have the Pixel, Google. You have Samsung Galaxy because there's no room for other phones. Other phones tried when someone gets it right they get it right and people gravitate to that where does it become where does it legitimately move from an oligopoly to a monopoly and i'm gonna i'm gonna stretch the definition here when we say monopoly it means one that is the definition of the word i'm gonna expand that and say it means two or three okay because if two or three run it

no one's coming in after a while no one's coming in there right and and there's seven and a half billion people on this earth like they're gonna they're gonna control the marketplace one way or another and with amazon it's like amazon and walmart right right like who else is really ebay is not a part of the conversation anymore they're for real for real right like they have a small percentage like who's really in the conversation yeah and with bezos it's like okay why are you now trying to get rid of the entire pharmaceutical industry and make it amazon do you need to do that no are you going to be able to yeah because you're going to go in there for three years and price gouge the fuck out of these people and then you're going to own it right

why do you need to fucking own the washington post like is that where is it fuck around and buy a newspaper day like did i miss that did i miss that you know what i mean there's all these little things and so that's where i criticize him because i'm like i have all the respect for this guy's a businessman but does he know like does he know where to stop how do you fix that i don't know but what i just said the government which i i hate fucking saying that but that's how that's the only way i can think of you're given you're giving power to someone yes who is it better in the public sector or the private sector i i don't know because i think i think humans at their core can be both bad and good, but when they,

you know, get in the same boat, like the government, it's all show. It's, it's a, it's political theater. You know,

everyone, two sides of the same shit coin, at least privately. Yeah. You see Bezos has blue origin and I'm a very big space guy and i advocate for more what we've seen you know i must do with spacex the past decade versus what nasa did on funding for the past 50 years is we got reusable rockets it's it's unbelievable it's amazing watching those things but like another guy who is stupid rich but i know he's been quoted saying the the purpose

of me to acquire wealth is so he can then distribute it into things like tesla or spacex or uh neural link or a boring company putting acquiring wealth to then solve real problems and and i i say real problem as something that affects humanity yes is the important thing and if you're not doing that at the billionaire scale you shouldn't be a billionaire and that's why he's on that wall and bezos isn't i mean truthfully and like people will rip musk on some things i i don't i i will always be i call it like i see it the whole pedo thing dude no one has ever the whole what the whole pedo thing when he called that cave diver. Oh, that shit was hilarious.

I don't care about that. That was fucking great. But like, you know, the whole Bitcoin thing and whatever. Listen, I'm a realist about some things. I understand. Elon Musk is the five ways to help humanity. Like that's, you just nailed it. That's what he sat in his dorm room like, the five ways I'm going to help humanity.

Solar and yeah. Like yeah, I was sitting there smoking weed and he was doing that but you know i love that the fact of the matter is it does require government contracts yes it does it does and i'll take that trade off all day i want him building that shit for sure when i see those falcon rockets land i'm like that shit's not real that's not real i watched i watched the fucking space shuttle columbia blow up like 15 years ago we've hit science fiction levels it's crazy it's insane so i want i'm doing that so like with i'm just using the one example of like a place where people rip them to shreds when he came out with the bitcoin thing about the environment i think it was misguided but i also know that that's probably not what he thinks and i also he's not an idiot dude putting

my little exactly putting my little tinfoil hat on that i feel pretty good about in this case someone at the government came up and tapped him on the shoulder and said hey elon you like those contracts right you're gonna send out a little tweet saying bitcoin's not too great does that mean they want to buy it or crash it i don't know but i'm pretty confident in that so when i see people come back at him like the idiots on bitcoin twitter like fucking morons and there's another word we're not allowed to say anymore but you're that that came back like you idiot you you dumb ass they're calling the smartest guy in the world a dumb ass read between the lines you dumb ass shout out like dude i sit there

owning bitcoin and i was like keep going down baby keep baby. We deserve it. Like, this is bullshit. And I shouldn't be doing that, right? But you look at it and that's what our society does. They try to tear down. I look at the full picture like you and when I see a guy like that, fucking guy lives in a shack. He lives in a shack. He sold all his homes. People just want to – people aren't able to peel back the onion layers they see and i

it's i mean no excuses but you know you blame the media you can blame the educational system you can blame the the family system you know looking at i don't want to get into it too much, but looking into the, the, the worst off cities in our, uh, country, our great country, people don't want to think, or don't have the ability to think further. And they see something, they react right away. Since we have that social media platform, they're able to, you know, log in and say, Hey, fuck this guy. And that's, that's it. And then that compounds and you have a lot of assholes around the country and world who never had that ability to express a really stupid opinion and you have people saying hey i agree with that and it's like well you shouldn't agree with that but you know echo chambers are a

thing when i had toby mustafa in here we were like mid-conversation on something related to this and he goes okay all men are trash i was like what and he's like 20 000 retweets 10 000 likes fucking 100 comments and i'm a hero i was like he's like you see you you are incentivized to put out the most ridiculous shit and then it creates these echo chambers where that's what gets the top of the page attention and now people gravitate towards it and so even if 80 of society is like has a brain and knows that that can't be true they're not going to publicly disagree with it you know that's where we run into the whole problem of like people saying there's no such thing as gender and shit

and it's like it's like all right well look whole problem of like people saying there's no such thing as gender and shit. And it's like, it's like, all right, well, look, 10 years from now, cancel me. There's two genders. I don't give a shit, dude. And that's the thing. Unless science proves otherwise, you know, fuck it. There's two genders. the people can't the issue with it is people hear you say that and they think you're you're against the whole alphabet community and i'm gonna call it the alphabet community because i don't know how many fucking letters and i think there was a number in there last time i heard i'm not gonna

touch that but okay look i'm gonna touch it yeah and if i get canceled in the future i'm not gonna say it right is my point i'm gonna get it. So I'll just let it be exactly how you described. No, no. And of course, I was always an advocate for gay marriage because why not? What's the difference? There is zero difference. I don't like the people throwing it in your face. And you say one thing that is factual.

And the factual thing is there are only two genders. And you're attacked for being you know the whole laundry list of horrible things that's my issue 100 man i think that people come at it like you know and and we see it used as a war for people it's it's one of those divide and conquer things so when i say that i'm not also then saying that if someone especially with the science we have today wants to be transgender and feels trapped in the wrong body yeah bro sis knock yourself out for sure hundred percent yeah but that does mean at some point you're going to be one or the other right and eventually we will have the medical ability to actually fully change it and right i'll accept it 100 for sure i got

no problem with it it's when people start saying well i don't identify as either or whatever again identify how you want but i draw the line where they start to then make that law so like if the government comes out and says you have to say this or say yeah fuck that like i know where that one goes yeah it's it's it's a very good historical example ahead of us of people taking that to lengths that have nothing to do with gender degree yeah look you want to just everyone leave everyone alone yes do whatever the fuck you want to do it it but that's across everything it's you know uh people who hate them, racism, all that stuff. These problems will never go away. You know, at scale, we are an 8 billion human world.

And once we get multi-planetary, we're going to be distributed. Hatred will survive. Hatred is innate. You know, we look at the animal kingdom. We see that there. That will never change. And if we were to get rid of hatred, I don't know what happens. You know, you get rid of darkness and everything's light.

You get rid of feelings. You get rid of sadness. You're always happy. How do you know how to be sad or, you know, the vice versa. There will always be hatred. You cannot solve it. So long as your rights are not being crushed and you can live your life exactly how you want to live it.

People are mean to you in your town. Get the fuck out of your town. You know, that sucks sucks but life is not fair it's true and the way you put that up front with the point about if there's no darkness then everything's light so what's the point that's like the meaning like when people say what is the meaning of life you nailed it that's when i think about it and i think about that question like everyone else does that's how i look them. Like the meaning of it is the how that could exist you know and that's not to say like we need people out there murdering people hey i wish no one did that but you know

what it happens it's crazy shit and people are we are complicated man we are so fucking complicated and we're more complicated than pretty much all the species on this earth that we know about because there's so many levels to us and if we want to sit here and act like the same people who preach love are also not doing hate then you're living in in in a different world you know there's there's these weird parrot i'm gonna get the word right at some point paradigm paradoxes i still have never googled it we're gonna go with it but there's these weird paradoxes that happen where people think it's just a push or it's just a pool right no it's physics says it's both yeah and don't even give me sorry i'm like quantum entanglement and shit like that what is quantum entanglement the fact that two particles can be linked together if one's here and one's in alpha centauri you know light years away the fact that you can observe it and instantaneously faster than speed of light

that particle and that particle have the same exact state which kind of disrupts the the you know special relativity relativity with einstein the fact that you know nothing can travel in faster and speed of light and the whole concept of space and space time the fact that two things and that's why quantum mechanics is such an interesting field is we don't know completely how that works but we use quantum mechanics when it comes to technology but the fact that two things could be linked that are so impossibly far away from each other at the same point upon observation just kind of blows my mind how does that relate to the world i understand what you mean now because i had you had to let my science catch up there for a minute you're getting a little

little far on me but are you saying that that means that it's the same concept like on our earth where if one person thinks something somewhere automatically someone they don't know far away thinks the opposite i don't know okay i might have missed that whole thing yeah i got eric weinstein right there all i'm saying is you know at its core people be good to each other. And at the end of the day, you don't really know as much, you know, and there's so much more to learn. And the fact that everyone bickers over really what is considered stupid shit and such small stuff, when in reality, we should be focusing on the tougher questions. You know, why are we here? What are we?

I guess is the better question you're a really interesting guy because you you yourself have a lot of different directions i'm trying to get a feel for this right now because we're we got dense they're faster and i expected that to happen but that's usually how it goes it's like on the one hand you said sayonara to social media 12 years ago signed off on the other hand you're building the things that social media 12 years ago, signed off. On the other hand, you're building the things that social media can't even keep up with that they're going to have to build into. On the one hand, you're about the privacy

and the ability to not have to show everything you're doing and have your own individual being and protect your data, a la, you know, like what Snowden exposed, as we said. And on the other hand, it's like, well, we do have to capture a lot of data to do what I'm doing but you also look at it as like this separate thing where it's like it's only certain data which people will rip you for but i understand what you mean and i want to talk more about that so i can say which way i go on that but i understand what you're getting at you're saying like i don't need to know everything about you i need to know these things and i think that's okay right yes and it's a you can opt out just don't use it and that's where the law of large

numbers comes in too because same as we were talking about with big platforms that attract a lot of people people want to go around other people inherently right even the most introverted people right like there's an aspect to which they don't want to be alone it's the worst place they can be i'll be the first one i met it and so the best place to the best places to do that with the easiest access now are through technology because it's like boom i can talk to someone right now if i want to go into a chat room about this table i can do it you know what i mean exactly so there's still which is awesome social media at its core is a phenomenal concept theoretically it would be perfect theoretically you don't take account of the shitheads and i think maybe it was uh george carlin said uh you know look at the average person

you know and then realize half the people are even dumber it's true when you look at the social media the outlet is now there and it's like pandora's box once it's opened can't slam it back close man god damn i i don't i i i hear what you're saying and i still want to come back at you though with like your being on this because on the one hand you're like there has to be good and evil in the world and on the other hand you're like it's the evil that's ruined social media so fuck that i'm out but they're not mutually exclusive right so like it's good and evil is just there is no inherent good or evil. Right.

So like from like a science perspective, there is nothing that is good or bad. There just is. And, you know, that's why religion who I, which I am very against organized religions. I don't have to dive into that right now though. Oh, we're going to dive, but keep going. It's, it's just, I don't have to dive into that right now though oh we're gonna die but keep going it's it's just i don't know it's just it's an interesting concept that there is two sides there will always be two sides no matter what and that's just something people have to appreciate what about the third side what's that there can't be a third side of course there could

be a third side and there's probably a third side it's just like how many dimensions do we live in we could be in the higher dimensions of a 10 dimension existence who knows there could be seven sides there could be religion though you know i'm not letting that one go fuck and i'll give you up front i'm much along your opinion with that. Where I'll say, for me, it does also come down to freedom. And it has a positive effect on a lot of people. Much more positive than negative. And so when people are, if they're Christian, if they're Muslim, if they're Jewish and they're devout, I'm all about it.

For sure. Do it. Yep. I think that the overall ideology that can then infect enough people within there for the wrong reasons creates a massive groupthink that then creates one side or the highway. How's it different than politics? Yes. That's exactly how I view it. Organization of people at scale is a scary thought. So is that like kind of your? side or the highway how's different than politics yes that's exactly how i view it organization of

people at scale is a scary thought so is that like kind of your i'll let you describe it how you want to but yeah i mean look i grew up um going to a sunday school of sorts uh me too they're not a fan of questions in in the sense of pushing the envelope a little bit which hey you know by all means it's your religion or whatever um my my father is jewish um he doesn't give two about religion ironically since his family is extremely jewish um my uncle lives in israel um my mother's side uh lutheran is not take it or leave it um but as soon as i was able to start i guess thinking for myself to a degree uh they're not huge i mean they say they accept everyone and like not gonna do shit about but like once you start questioning things i don't like the answers that i get because in reality they're not answers you know

and that's why i choose to believe in science and i'm not saying i don't like the answers that I get because in reality, they're not answers, you know, and that's why I choose to believe in science. And I'm not saying I don't believe in a God. All I'm saying is show me the proof. There could be, you know, I don't know what happened prior to the Big Bang. people that take the bible or the quran or the torah whatever literally yes or one crazy sorry and two if they go to if they go to cram that down your throat you're just as bad as the extreme conservatives and liberals you know read it's people that go too far in one direction whether that's because they need something to grab hold on to which is fine look if there's something you're going through and religion is your outlet awesome it's just like how music is my outlet that's all well and good um just don't throw it in someone's face or belittle them since they don't believe in agree your version of God or your version of how to be which it's just I don't know religion is one of those things I i just i'm not a huge fan of

though i do appreciate religion from the historical sense i think it's extremely fascinating unbelievably it's you know obviously i've read the bible uh hell of a story oh yeah oh yeah whether there's any truth in there written like like 600 years after that events thousand years after, but I think it's extremely fascinating. Uh, I think all religions are fascinating, but the fact that we have war based on religion, uh, that's wild have war in general.

I, I'm, I'm against, um, but the fact that, I mean, what divides a religion and a cult, in my opinion,

just scale. That's fucking brilliant. Wow. And cults can get huge, but yeah. No, no. And I don't even really want to add to that. I want to expand upon, like, ask a few things in there, because I think you said that pretty perfectly.

That reflects, that's how i look at it right like and it comes down to like a law of large numbers thing to that final point it's like the more people you have that can be like that then that's what you pay attention to and it's like you know the bible has a lot of great lessons in it but it's like anything else what was the bruce lee line take what's good leave what's bad get the fuck out of here right i definitely changed that a little bit that's what it is you know so so like that's how i look at that kind of thing and i i'm not if you start a quiz of me on the different chapters in there i get a lot of shit wrong but like i have a lot of the general stories i think there's good stuff to learn from it like from a human level

outside of the religion it's supposed to represent right if you wanted to look at some of it literally how about the fact that we know eyewitness testimony is one of the worst things ever as far as reliability most of the time and we're talking about eyewitness testimony that was passed down through like 12 Generations that all live 20 years I mean don't give me about burning Bush like yeah yeah Bernie I got I got news for you acid yeah acid a large amount of it too a lot of it there's some nice mushroom fields out there but anyway you know so that might happen it might it might happen like in his mind dimensionally but either way like i don't want to be an asshole it's like hey all that's a lie i know there's pieces of truth and everything to things we know that like people like jesus christ was

was a historical figure who existed but like did he walk on water maybe maybe not probably not i mean look how were the pyramids built if you're gonna be one of the tin foil hat guys i don't know yeah and and that's a great point what makes religion different from a tin foil hat theory in theory like in the scale yeah it's just scale you know you have all these assholes you have crazy theories and at the end of the day it's a theory because we can't prove it yeah it can't become a law and that's why i love science so much especially physics is there's so many theories everything is theoretical until things you know we need to experiment more that's the the fun part of i guess existence to me and that's why i don't try and it's not in my opinion it's not bad being a fence sitter.

I like to hear input from every side, whether there's three or seven sides. I like to hear everything and then make my own conclusion. I'll go on CNN. I'll go on Fox. And then I say they're both spinning shit. Yeah, good for you for still doing that. At the end of the day, I still don't give a shit. I just want to be knowledgeable about some sort of world it's it's just people have to be open now here's where it's an interesting place for you

to bring this up though you talk about you believe in science and like i've spoken with you a lot i agree with you i think that's what you're all about you believe in science as science is defined to be which is question everything argue over proof figure out what the best proof is and continue iterating over time as new information comes in for sure so there's things we may know right now that we're like later like we don't actually know what it is and that's how you look at it when when the word science however is thrown around these days i think science is the new religion because everyone who got a fucking d in physics and never paid attention and was probably smoking weed at the age of 13

not looking at the laws of dimension while they were doing it more likely watching mtv or jerking off we're doing both those are the people we're doing both exactly those are the people who are throwing around there and getting 30 000 retweets every time saying trust the science God and it's like but but they don't believe in science so how do you level with that as someone who you use the term because you have to I mean it's it's supposed to be a great term you don't try what do you mean you don't try there's enough information out there if someone wants to be open-minded and learn we have the internet there's literally zero excuse nowadays you can't it's you just don't reason with people like that you don't you don't

because it's never a fruitful conversation but those are the people a lot of times that drive attention this goes back to the social platform points because they're a part of pushing that quote-unquote science now not all of them but in some cases they have been won't name names but they've been a part of pushing that narrative of no this is the science this is how it goes like why does it matter right social media is such a very small part of our world and that's taken it is it's taken to the news and for the people that don't follow social media which are a lot of people or news they're conjoined at the hip. You have things spiral out of control a little bit, but that's also not what necessarily the majority of people think 30,000

likes versus 8 billion people is a different thing. True. But there's a, there's a million tweets behind that that have a similar level. And how many of them are real people? Very fair. Glad you asked that. A lot of them are,

are bots and systems that are set up that push by the way, the blue check mafia, right? It's likedit um i've got a few views on reddit and i do appreciate red as a platform even though every subreddit is its own echo chamber um it's good knowing knowing that going in but it's like the uh the politics subreddit which is now just a pure liberal subreddit it's interesting you don't know who's posting uh but it is fascinating uh i remember when uh jeslene maxwell got arrested uh there was a account there it was called maxwell h or something you're coming for all the smoke today let's go and uh the everyone considers it a massive conspiracy theory that the account was hers but very coincidental that the account stopped posting uh when she got arrested she was one of the largest accounts uh in politics

and news and the obviously everything she would push was you know anti-Trump and you know very Pro-Liberal uh but it's interesting seeing that we have this anonymous world in the sense on the internet that you don't know who you're getting information from. That's the scary part for me. I will disagree with the one point you made at the start of that that I think is also the one we need to talk about because it drives what does... It doesn't drive it. It considers what is it that drives everything what is it

that drives results politically geopolitically socially internationally whatever and that is sentiment and so you know do I agree with you that there are plenty of people who just don't participate in that world yeah actually more than you because you're still on reddit you know it's not like a true educational yeah yeah it's not like a true educational yeah yeah it's not like the others where your face is out there and it's like baker said today it's like you're probably like tin man number five or whatever like like you know i fucked your mom 69 like all these tiktok accounts that's that's probably you but you know you're on there like that you're even

still using it to an extent and it is driving like you get these kernels of information all day and chances are most people do own an iphone like it's not everyone or you know an android like but it's it's it's more than half of society in in civilized world and so i do think that that stuff does drive narratives because it honestly does i'm oh i won't disagree with that it drives narratives so what do you what do you mean by that where's that narrative going and what circle is that narrative a part of? So the point is that not necessarily we are all, and I guess maybe it's, I won't say just our generation, but like a subset of our generation is very social driven. How large of that is that circle? You know, because everything, something starts on social media and then breaks to the news or starts on news and then,

you know, flames and on social media, but how large is that circle actually? And how much, and not just how large, how much influence does it have on actual things, actual things, meaning outside of the news and politics sphere of,

of influence, like what? Anything that's real, anything that's education based anything that isn't a game I should say because at its core news has turned into a game you know who can get the most attention what's not a game go back to the gamification of everything that's what I mean every stock markets become a game which is crazy because it's the one thing that obviously the deck is stacked against you.

But now that we have these retail traders coming up in large groups and they're driven by these massive whales going against the other whales, the hedge funds, which you're never going to be to fund. It's just you don't have the money. But everything – I had to tell a few people that. Everything is being gamified. And that's the, I guess that is a scary point because now thinking about it, while that influence of social media and news, it did start out very small.

It has been grown. Where's the point that it stops that scale? Your parents who were telling you don't believe what you see on the internet and all that shit, 10 years later, we're talking about blockchain ballots as a global conspiracy. And it's funny you bring that up because my mom keeps

sending me with stuff of like oh would you see this on the internet this research study i'm like well one you read a headline two you didn't read the study and three i can do my own study right now put on the internet and get you know 10 000 clicks and you know then people play at the headline you're believing the shit on the internet and that's the that's the truth and then it starts to and i think about it all the time because it's like well what is the truth is it who's who am i to say quote i'm informed because i read a hundred different things instead of 10 like is there a number to it and then there's nuance to what you're reading there's nuance to the cut to the things that that little kernels in your head that little kernels in your

head that could plant you in one direction that you otherwise don't think about like i was talking with with my friend's wife yesterday and she was going over like nutrition in in foods and like pesticides and shit like all that shit that i don't know anything about and i would like troll a couple times and throw out these stupid one-liners like oh I'm not a pussy or whatever and then I threw out I don't even remember what I said but I it was like no vegetables are supposed to be x y or z and she's like and who the fuck told you that and I'm like I don't know I read it somewhere and she's like you read it somewhere and and then I thought I'm like she's right she's right because then she's and and it doesn't matter if she's right on her

point maybe she is maybe she isn't right she Cause then she's, and it doesn't matter if she's right on her point. Maybe she is, maybe she isn't. I think she might be, but unfortunately, but you know, like she's right in the sense that how often do we do that on the smallest things or the biggest things like, oh yeah, I saw this. So it must be true. That's it. That's what happened, you know? Cause there's so much information coming at us. That's why I just, I don't talk one. I don't talk on things I don't know about, especially things that I really don't know about to the point of like, I can, you know, talk about like the back of my hand, which is a very small amount of categories. Everything else, I just take in the information and say, hmm, interesting. Okay, well, if it's that interesting and I think about it when I'm heading to sleep at midnight, maybe I'll actually look into it. If not, gone. that interesting and i think about it when i'm heading to sleep at midnight maybe i'll actually look into it if not gone do you like do you think people could be as naturally reasonable as you are

though you're an incredibly reasonable person i really hope not because then we wouldn't have fun you're such a paradox i hope i i think there's one of me in the i mean if you subscribe to the multiverse theory well we can hop into that but one of me in this universe is is by more than enough than we can handle i think i'm doing i'm doing this sober right now you're killing me yeah well i look i'm also a realist in the sense that i understand that things that come out of my mouth especially Throughout the day every day not just on camera or whatever Things that come out of guests mouth things that come out of my friends mouth my family's mouth We are going to contradict ourselves

Several times a day and maybe not even know it on things that is how crazy the nuance in this world is and I'm okay with that and I'll admit it when it happens and There's also a difference between contradicting and changing your mind on something though you know i do that all the time right when i hear when someone sits across from me and they present a case on something that previously i would have been like that and now they present a great case and then i look at it myself as well look at some sources and i'm like i feel confident enough to say i think they're right and i was wrong and now that's my opinion like we need to have that and that's another thing by the way that gets punished and when I was bringing up the science is the new religion point that's exactly what I'm talking about man because it extends it it goes to it goes to propaganda not science I mean you saw what

happened with this lab leak theory I knew about the lab leak fucking in march 2020 oh yeah but if i had tweeted about it i was a racist but i wasn't a racist if i said a person from china ate a fucking bat that wasn't racist you know what i mean there's this cross between social and and and knowledge and that's what scares me because they hide it underneath an important word like that right we live in extremes in extremes, you know, uh, at our core, we're the most of people are, are binary people. And I mean,

I'll obviously not talk about the gender aspect of that, but the fact that you're a zero or a one, you play on a spectrum and you have the extreme, you have the extreme. Yes. We should live in the gray in the middle, 98%. You know, it's cool acknowledging the

extremes outside of that be open just everything comes comes back to that and this whole racist thing oh god i know it's a divide and conquer thing man and it doesn't mean you know my position like it certainly exists and we have we definitely have some problems i think it's like exactly what you say though we take problems and we make them far more extreme than they are i try to pull them back to the middle sometimes i do a bad job you know like i and i'm not gonna i'm not gonna be perfect on guiding the conversation on everything and i hear it sometimes when i'm in an episode like man i really went hard at this or that or whatever and like i'll get better over time that's my hope but overall at least 30 000 foot in the air view i do i do really believe that's that's what we do

we take it farther than it is and instead of saying like hey we might have an okay system or a good system on something and it needs x y and z improvements let's do that we say the whole thing's fucked and let's tear it down it's like well well i mean we're in this instant gratification era and people also don't want to be wrong if you're not wrong how do you grow i don't know i i i'll take a step away from saying i love being wrong but i kind of do love being wrong because then you know hey i learned something and that's that. And that's what matters because if you're not growing and evolving, what's the point of anything? But then you inject it into something really emotional. It's very hard to do that, especially when you have a public skin in the game on it whether that be something like a tweet or your

literal identity you know emotional agreed agreed I think that too much pragmatism and no emotions a problem first I think too much emotion and not enough pragmatism is a problem gray area yes yes but like you you mentioned you have family in Israel you said do. I do. So here's a great example right here. Because like on the Israel-Palestine thing, which is as old as time, you know, I don't make a lot of friends on that because I'm not anti either of them. I understand their positions and I feel horrible. I think Israel, everyone around them hates them and tries to blow them off the face of planet Earth every day. Of course. That country was formed after the world failed the jewish people and allowed i'm not going to say

that they knew the extent it was going to go but the signs were there and they did nothing and the world went oh oh my god and rightfully so we owe these people a lot and they said well here you go right yeah but then you also had other people there who weren't part of that and everything but now they had already been ruled by britain and everything and it's like get the fuck out and it's not like this is just like some place in europe this is like a holy land and so i feel horrible for everyone involved and yet when i talk to people who are hard on one side or the other of the situation, there is no ability for nuance there. And it's sad to me.

Yeah, of course. There's not really anything you talk about that, you know, the whole nuance thing. It's really not. At the same time, it just goes back to the whole religion thing. Well, here's a question for you. Judaism. It is a religion. Is it a race? that's a great question i've thought about that before and it's i don't have an answer for you because like i also don't

like i don't like defining i'm one of those like i don't i don't like putting people in a box or whatever like you know you got to be like evidentiary. Like, is there, is there, are there different sex, like S-E-C-T-S of, you know, Asian races? Are there, are there Anglo-Saxons? Are there black people? Are there. People just want to put a label on everyone. Yeah. So like, it's kind of weird.

It's like anything though people innately feel like they need to understand and and compartmentalize each thing no matter what yeah we see the music you know how many sub genres fall out of rock music you know you see the movies but people just have to understand like what you like and don't hate what you don't like i i feel like people don't have that that ability what you like and don't hate what you don't like I feel like people don't have that that ability a lot of people don't have that ability they have to be the correct one all right devil's advocate for everything I just said and you just said if that's the case do we why are there two genders science said they're two genders so science is fine well I mean there's two genders because like we can just see you know sexual organs there's there's two genders and I that's how

I see genders is the ability to uh procreate you know drawing parallels to the animal kingdom just like that sexual preference and gender are two different things in my opinion I mean obviously they are but yeah that's that's my stance on that. With race, though, and here's why I think that argument does stand up. The content of humanity is based on the ability of humanity, not the physical way a human looks. That's why we can have someone who walks this earth right now who's eight feet tall and another person who's four feet tall, right? It happens. And it's no different with the skin tone or color of your skin which has to do by the way literally with like climate and evolution over time it doesn't have to do with like brain fun like right like in the movie django the most ridiculous scene maybe of the whole thing remember when leonardo's like taking the skull out or whatever and he goes now if i go right here and i smash this skull in three parts you will see a dent right here right here and it's like

you listen to that and you're like oh this is why these people were very very dumb right because they're they're looking at it from a physical perspective and it's like that that has nothing it's all an internal thing whereas with gender and this is why I think your argument's okay, you have something that, yes, you can see it physically, but it has an internal function. Right? So a male has a certain half of the procreation, right? Right. That the female has a different half of, and then they play a different role physically and technically like emotionally and all the other things and how that then happens right right like a male doesn't birth a female right or doesn't

birth a kid right the female does but the male injects his sperm for the female to be able to do that right yeah what uh what do you want me to hit on there i figured you were just gonna bat that back but i don't know no i'm i'm just you were just going to bat that back but i don't know no i'm i'm just in full agreement that was full logic there okay i don't see anything wrong with that all right so that's why i i view the the gender and and the race thing a little different and i wish like it's not for me to say to being at the top of the intersectionality curve is a cisgender white male but it's not second privilege man hey check it right at the door baby we used to walk into bars and Mike Spear would like stop you like like you'd walk in and and he'd be like oh and be like what and

he's like coat rack and point to the coat rack and we're like what and he's like check your privilege man oh wow yeah we'll throw it for you but anyway like i i don't i don't look at that as for me to say on how to define it because as humans one of the failures we have is we have we've had people like leonardo dicaprio and django in the past who decide that oh i'm smart even though they're a right And then they inflict the worst of the worst on other people. So it is a topic of conversation that's important. I do dream of a world, though, where no one ever fucking noticed it. It's not going to be in my lifetime.

I don't think we'll ever get there. I don't know that we will. But that's the good thing about humanity. We shouldn't have to. You should have the right to think and say whatever the fuck you want, so long as you're not aggressive aggressive in someone's face about it. You want to think that there's a pasta God in the sky and that all black people are bad or all Jews are bad? Then you're right.

Sure. It is. You're right. And you should be defeated with logic. Right. And you're wrong. Yeah, exactly. And that person would be wrong but you know so long as they're not going around murdering people

or you know doing anything that has an actual physical impact you know digital platforms be damned that's not substance yeah i'm okay with whatever the hell you want to think because who am i say you tell you what's right and what's wrong and to tie into someone that would argue right against that and use the example of like in nazi germany when the government was saying these things about jewish people and the build-up to that oh so that was okay no first of all you're not saying it's okay at all that's not the point you're saying it's fucking terrible oh yeah and there's a huge difference there too they were the government they had the ability to silence everyone else

you are talking about in a free marketplace of people outside the government to be able to be defeated on bad ideas right completely agree yep if the government started saying that stuff that's a different story yeah oh yeah get the guns out i mean that's that's that's end war times right so yeah i we talked about that on a podcast early on i had my friend alex warowitz in here from eight sleep and he just nailed it on some things where he brought up he brought up the section 230 stuff and he's like look it's their right to do this but the the pandora's box that's been opened here is that again like i don't think they asked for this i don't think they were sitting around in rooms in

03 like we're going to create the global place for people to think but right they have it now and the fact of the matter is and this is why i was disagreeing with one of your points earlier the main public squares are social they are online they're the communities that people go to and so how do you level with that it's tough you don't i think it's as easy as that it's just like you know that it is what it is you know we've seen you know generations ago you know public lynchings things happening it's who can command the respect and the admiration from the most amount of people and i think that's and i hope as we become like a multi-planetary species, uh, we are distributed to the point of, you know, we extreme people are someplace, you know, and

not saying you create a utopia on Mars or, you know, if we terraform any planets, but, but the, the ability to disagree in a nice manner because without that you don't have evolution you don't you don't without that the stories of history don't happen positive negative charge like that's that's what we are made of and that's what it should be just the extremes and that's if you want to be extreme in your own head and you know talk about what you want to say that's fine you're probably either going to be alone or you're going to have a very small amount of people but the fact that social media existed that small amount of people in their basements were able to say hey

a bunch of smaller people a small amount of people over there said the same exact thing as us let's group up with them and large numbers and that's that's where all these different like factions form because it's weird that another paradox like we have two polarized sides that have attention more than ever but we have subgroups within them that are toxic and it's crazy you know how big are those extremes we so we see it right we see it in the in the way of likes and internet points and we see it in the sense of news and i'll do air quotes around news because news is to the point where it's mostly opinion-based right now at least you know the larger corporations because people want something to either massively agree with and defend or massively disagree with

an attack just like sports and everyone talking about like who's the goat my question is who the fuck cares how do you get to an answer you don't people are going to be doing this thing over and over and over again with lebron mj kobe and we talk about that that one example all the time on here in different combos i've had with people and it's like one of the things i took from kobe's death is i'm like done fighting over what these guys do on the court appreciate right of course i fucking love watching it like michael jordan was unbelievable when i watched lebron james he's a physical specimen the likes of which i've never seen it's unbelievable what he pulls off like i'm gonna enjoy the out of it and it's important to keep it too on the court because

you can disagree with lebron off the court you can disagree with how he handled china you can disagree how he handles a bunch of stuff and and i do but in a vacuum lebron is a hell of an athlete unbelievable one of the greatest to ever play the game I look at the good and the bad but like off the court too you know yeah be aware of it he doesn't impact my my goat debate he does incredible philanthropy like he's walked the talk with that it's an amazing thing everything he's done for Akron and just yeah country it's been incredible didn't forget where he came from I really like that I appreciate it and so there there is a lot of good i think people get pissed when he gets when he gets very um what's the word adamant politically you know almost like kind of talking down to people who could possibly disagree with him but you know what in all honesty that's what

we've created if you're on one of the two sides that's what you do politics has permeated every industry i i agree with your right to want to i i don't agree with like kneeling for the anthem i also don't agree with the anthem being there i came for a sporting match i want to see people play sports you know keep everything out of it you want to state your opinion that's cool it's like the with the olympics now you're repping your country that's different yeah that's a little different but i i don't know we we become such a charged society especially politically and it just permeates through everywhere and if you don't agree like before it used to be you don't agree about one thing we can agree about something else now it's like oh you're a trump supporter boogie man you're you're dead to me that's such

a fair take you know what i'd relate it to because people would be like well sports is different because everyone knows about it and the people are famous okay do they play the national anthem at the beginning of every movie and tv show you watch yeah i never if i go see metallica are they playing the national anthem there dude i i'll admit i've never thought of this i that's my opinion there yeah and and my stance always was like free country do what you want to do right i don't like when people are seemingly using a situation to overdo it or make points that aren't necessary and i'm with you when it comes to the olympics you decided to represent your country if you don't like it no problem don't go represent them like that's the one place where it's like this is a literal

expectation and like they're also right you're not the olympics brings together like every country with a viable population around the world of all different colors and everything this is one place where white supremacy is probably not going to be a great argument it's a and it's also a country competition it's not who's the best individual performer it's who has the best who has the best athletes people the best people have a tough time not making it about themselves though in today's era oh no that's that's what we're all about though it's it's sad and and when i talk to guys like you especially you know your conundrum because you're in the middle of building stuff you're not like this off-grid fucking

ripping a bogue in a back seat somewhere and like you know reminiscing on the 70s and being born in the wrong decade you're one of these guys who's like no you're in the middle of building shit but you also recognize that like this whole public forum no no no like i i don't need to i don't need to concern myself with that for the most part which is cool but you know it's still a matter of society being affected by it and and changing like our our level of narcissism whether you participate or not you know we all have a degree of it i even dude i'll look back on old posts i did and i'll ask myself the question now right why did i do that? Why did I put that

up? Was that because I wanted to, or because I wanted to appear a certain way to other people? And that retrospective is extremely important. And that's, I don't have that, uh, option. Like I can't go look at posts. I can think about what I was like, or what I said years ago, I've been pretty consistent in, I guess, my views after a certain point. Uh, but I appreciate that about you that you can, you can do that and grow from there. Yeah. I do think I have the cheat codes in the sense that, I mean, I talk with people for a long time on here. So like there's 150 hours of me talking to people online. you wanted to know who i am guess what it's there you know these aren't 10 minute combos where i can kind of act right right so i'm very

dis and what's what's the word desensitized to it like it's it's what it is and my flaws are out there my good things are out there it's whatever but i think part of it was as i was going through this process that was the final step to my perspective because i was always more wired to not be like that i was a late like i was on social media early but then never was not on instagram right i was dude i was doing marketing on instagram for people for two years and i wasn't on there right like i i was like who the fuck and they'd be like yo make an instagram like who the fuck wants to see what i you know what i mean but then you get on it and it's the gamification thing right and you don't think about it and so i wasn't the worst with it trust me like i wasn't out there like and here's what i'm having for breakfast here's my avocado toast like there was none of

that but i still look back on some stuff i'm like what the fuck was i doing right you know so i i don't know if i would be all the way there if I wasn't already forced to like, just put this out there and fail and succeed in front of people or whatever it's going to be. But that's a nice thing to come of it because I have that. And then I talk with people like you who can have these, these 30,000 foot in the air views on stuff like this and see the things that are wrong with it. And then it, it does make you think about, okay, well, what role do I play in it? That level of maturation is extremely important. At the end of it, the role that is important though, you're right. It's like, what role do

I play in it? But remember the average person, they don't think that that far, nor do they want to because you know, they're in the highlight reels that's all they care about they don't care about life they care about that highlight i i don't the thing is though i empathize with most of those people especially when i know them too you know and i and i can talk to them when they're not taking a picture with a filter for instagram or taking a video of whatever the fuck and it's like a lot of those people not all of them a lot of them though completely fake life on there and unhappy and you know it's the hamster wheel and they don't know they're on it and you can sit there and try to show them that maybe you should i don't say like yo you're on it but i'll try to like be like you know what about this they don't want the red pill

they they they don't want the what the red pill matrix red pill blue pill either you know what about this they don't want the red pill they they they don't want the what the red pill matrix red pill blue pill either you know you're cool and living in the matrix or you want to come out of it and like get some sort of self-awareness i thought you're talking about the other red pill for a minute but yeah exactly yes they don't they don't want that and it's like i can't tell them what to do and maybe maybe 10 years from now, they'll still be just as miserable because they're trying to live up to this thing that they can't be. Yeah. And that's exactly,

there's an expectation, I guess, set maybe a little informally for a lot of people when they go on these platforms and they say, Oh, I'm not, I'm not as good as I should be. What does that mean?

People don't want to, people have all their own answers for that, but it's just an interesting, interesting concept of people and how they interact with, with, with seeing that stuff. It comes up a lot. I'm just thinking about this like it comes up a lot on here and everything but i think it's a great topic because it is something that the majority of people can relate to that they struggle with and few people consistently talk about it openly with different perspectives if it were just me getting in front of the camera every day and talking about this would be the dumbest thing ever but seriously, I get to have all different people who many times don't know the last person who about the podcast, though, that is very cool. Those do mean a lot to me.

But it's the ones where people are talking about like, hey, you know, you're inspiring me to be more open about what I think or more open with being myself, especially on social media. Like I got one that said that like word for word last week. And I'm like, that's cool. Because maybe if we weren't doing this shit right here, that kid would have never seen this kind of thing. And then continues on the hamster wheel and just maybe listening to one thing that someone else said in here, he's like, whoa, this guy brought in this other guy who made this point.

And now, boom, I didn't know who that person was, but here I am. Yeah. Because you do good. And I mean, you do actual good things

and if you can make somebody actually think a little bit because all it takes is is is a little nudge and once that domino you know hits into the other ones it's kind of like people people wake up a little bit they say oh interesting and they follow that they keep pulling the string keep pulling the string and where's the lead them what about in your world though because you know what the stereotypes are you're in it so you can you can back down what's right and what's wrong or at least what you think of that but outside of it a lot of us see tech as this closed community where things like science is the new religion ideas come out of from the outside where people are like, oh, that must be what it is. But, you know, I'm a realist about it too because I'm like the brilliance and the talent and the incredible help to humanity in many ways that this industry has brought.

It's everything, right? Like you said earlier, there's good and there's bad and one of the bad things to me from the outside correct me if i'm wrong is that there is a significant level of groupthink like accepted thought and here's what it is so as a guy like you you are a pure creator in there you're this you're not just the co-founder of your company you're the cto you're building this shit every day you are bringing this tool to people you are one of the people who they're going to talk about like oh baker brought the world this software right here that now we take for granted because we use it every fucking day and so in the context like they'll talk how they talk then but you have to then get your way

through this community you have to have these conversations with people you aren't afraid to put your opinions out there and everything do you worry about the fact that there is such a level to which things that you say i mean you've said it as an as an aside a couple times today like oh they might cancel me for this or oh you know whatever do you worry about the fact that a that could happen and b it could prevent you from doing what you want to do to to bring this thing to the world it's a loaded question it is um no i try and be authentic whenever i can and whenever i can it should be all the time uh i i don't feel like i say bad things in the sense of hurting people uh i don't try and single out people unless they need to be singled out for a reason that isn't based on race or religion or something like that.

Good. But I try and foster a culture, at least at the company that is extremely open-minded. We do round tables every couple of weeks. Someone suggests a topic and everyone just gets together and we bring outside folk too. I'd love to have you on one of those as well. Would love to.

Do you talk about the engineering team? Company wide. Oh, the whole thing? Yeah, we do roundtables. We started on crypto, went to black holes. Just like fun stuff people want to talk about and learn about

because we've got some really bright minds there. But, you know, at the end of the day, I do what's best for the company and what's best for the shareholders because without them, you know, we're nothing. Yes. And, and I hope they buy into an early stage, you know, it's yeah, you buy into the product idea and all that, but you're not buying into the numbers and the revenue you're buying into the people. And I try and be authentic and I try and say what I

actually believe and not sugarcoat it that may be harsh for some people but you know we're also living in an age where everyone gets a trophy and I'm extremely against that you should get a trophy trophies be damned outside like the Nobel Prize you should be recognized when you should be recognized and that's it keep your path and so long as you're a good person that's that's all i care about be good and then do good that's what i try and live by yeah the participation trophy culture has infected everything and it's it's created a world where people believe that everyone can be a winner and not everyone's a winner yeah a lot of losers out

there but in the nicest way possible just because and everyone goes through that you you are a loser and then you're a winner it's like socks don't just go up you know it's cyclical you can lose but then that should give you the drive to win but once you win be gracious because you know the next thing that happens is you're probably gonna lose einstein he won with his you know theory of relativity awesome how about after that a lot lot of losing. And the conversations with Niels Bohr about quantum physics and how he was against that. And then Bohr was proven right about a bunch of stuff. You win, you lose. That's life.

People expect life to be a certain thing and linear in a lot of aspects. But it's just not. I can imagine, though. You talk about, yeah, your job is to restore value or create value for shareholders and the people who support you and everything, and that does create, and this is with everything in society within the context of the economy, this is how it works, it does create these boxes you have to check, right? so there are battles you pick and battles you ignore and i'm okay with that i'm a real there are people who are like you need to stand for every goddamn

thing every second i'm like that's not how life works you don't need to be talking about the meaning of gender with a guy who wants to invest five million dollars in you that is not the thing but i am curious when you know things do infringe upon something like freedom for you which is a huge thing you know you've expressed that today talking with you off camera you're the kind of guy and i think you've literally said this you're like on on camera today you want people to do what they want to do you know and everything and there are a lot of people who think they want that for people but are messaging the opposite and there happen to be a lot of people like that who work broadly in the tech space. Yeah, that's, I don't know, outside looking in what's your,

what's your perspective on that? My perspective is that people get painted one side or the other, and that there are a lot of people out there who actually may very well agree with one side or the other but try to make a point counter to opposite side, quote unquote, and they get labeled and it's hard to say the words liberal or conservative with what i believe because i don't even know what those two words mean anymore to be frank with you um it's it's a very fluid thing but in the context of traditional liberalism say like five years ago right yeah like i definitely lean that way i have a few beliefs that conservatives would yell at me if I said I was conservative about, but I'm not liberal about. And that tends to be on, like, taxes and government, right? But, you know, conservatives want – they think the IRS should be about – I'm talking about hardcore conservatives. They want the IRS, like, gone, no income.

Like, I don't believe in any of that. I'll pay taxes. I'm cool with all that shit, right? I just am a realist about it but when i go to to paint ideas out there whenever i take something that is assumed to not be on one side not the other side but not be on one side i'm attacked and i see it all the time on tiktok because the t the TikTok algorithm hates me because one post is going to hit all the lefties and they're going to like the fuck out of it. And the next post is going to hit all the righties. And then when they send it to one or the other, they're like, I thought you were

on our side. And I'm like, no, that's the whole point. And so you're asking me how I look at it from the outside. I look at it like tech is creating the arbiter of not the arbiter the the places where we express these things and they want to better humanity they want to solve problems and stuff but there are these accepted ways of thinking and then they they allow for the extremes to define what everyone else is and to me a lot of us live where i am in the gray area in the hardcore gray area and they get ignored well that's the majority of the world because what's interesting about it nothing the gray area is not interesting it's the extremes that are actually interesting you think people get will get clicks

well they didn't that's why they went to the extremes and that's why you see all these news outlets and the the stuff people want to consume is extreme content which is ironic because as a country we've tried to defeat extremism in the world but people don't realize and look you know inwards that is what we we we've cultured as a society is extremism and you wonder why that you know terrorists exist and stuff like that. I can explain easily why they exist. Look at us, look at how our government and nobody gives a shit about the rest of the

world as an American, right? You care about yourself, the majority of people and your, your country. And that's it. Our country does a lot of bad. People don't realize that as well.

And there's a lot of people that hate us because of that. And people wonder why we've gotten attacked and things like that. Terrible things have happened. Lots of people have died, but to say that we are innocent is crazy, but we have a, we have a very nice smile while we, while we do it. And we have a lot of citizens that have great smiles when they do it as well. It's, you know, the,

the media, you know, I keep coming back to that. Cause like they do a lot of damage and they cultivate this extremism that then permeates through all these mini sectors around the country. And then at a certain point you have what is essentially only two, two sides and then a middle who I wouldn't even consider a side. It's just a middle that,

that gray area. And that's, that's the terrible thing about, uh, I guess us is that happens everywhere in every industry. Tech industry is no different. Uh, we have these massive companies essentially acting like governments, governments can't regulate, you know, a handful of companies that equal the GDP of, you know, a lot of nations around the world, what are they going to do? You know, without the tech industry, this, what, what good is this country for? We, we import a lot of shit right now. Our biggest export is technology companies, you know, Google, Facebook, Apple, this stuff is prevalent across the whole world.

They are the ones that make the decisions. I mean, they are, you know, they're the ones that are able to then give people the ability to, you know, say whatever the hell they want to say. And then, you know, there's born the extremism and that's what gets the, all these algorithms on social media go for the, the the the most awarded posts or the most the posts with the most likes of course they're gonna be extreme why wouldn't they be fuck man you're blowing my mind today this happens a lot in here because i i get a chance to talk to people a lot smarter than me and they come in here and they say answers i wouldn't say i'm a lot

smarter than you you're you're smart as fuck but they say these things that have like 14 ideas in them and i'm like i want to hit all of them and i contradict myself all the time no that's okay i do too as i told you i do too but when you're talking about tech as being that arm like it almost like their own government You also said earlier that Someone has to have the power and it's gonna get bastardized or something like that when it when it does And so I don't think that changes by the point you just made and I think that's what it is and the only thing is when you look at these Google's and these apples and stuff as Tech companies from the u.s what does

that even mean anymore because it's globally scaled you know and money responds around the world you brought it here's a good example outside of tech too fuck it we'll go there like you brought up the china example with the nba this is another one where i piss off everyone because i thought it was crazy the things that were said publicly by the players and coaches after that where they weren't calling shit out. But I also understood because it's like, well, would you open your mouth to then give up hundreds of billions of dollars that is going to cost your buddies as well? You know what I mean? It's a fine line to walk. Unfortunately, that's a really tough spot to be but

these guys yeah they're reliant on that chinese market is enormous it's a deal with the devil i mean look at daryl morey who i'm a massive fan of and i'm i'm so thankful he's in philadelphia i think so highly of him i think he's a a mastermind and you're a huge basketball fan massive yeah huge sixers fan um trust the process of course what Daryl Morey did which is you know a simple tweet uh it just also shows how powerful social media platforms are and how powerful tech is the fact that China said no fuck you and then Daryl Morey's like oh okay and the NBA was like oh shit all right well players don't do that and no one said shit after that it's it's another one of those shit or fart situations because i want them to be able to say

that and i and i am proud of them for saying i didn't even know anything i thought hong kong and taiwan were like the same thing or whatever that's an indictment against our education 100 yeah so that gave me like then i looked into that situation and i still get mixed up sometimes but like taiwan's the one that's a country anyway um i think that's like four times on this podcast i don't think they like me in china very much that's what it is so like i i think it was great that he did that and then i felt horrible about the backlash and i also one thing i don't like is like when lebron and harden and some of these guys want to address it when there was when there was throwing maury under the bus they didn't need to do that don't feign ignorance lebron's look lebron may be one of the greatest players to ever play the game

and i won't even say that he didn't go to college. Cause I, my views on college are, you know, not great. He's not a dummy. I, well, I hate that argument for him to say that comment full knowingly,

of course, because obviously, you know, like Elon Musk, they're, they are smart people in the, in the sense of they know what to say and what to not say. The fact that he said that just say,

I have no comment, but no, he wanted to have the uh i guess some sort of dick swing contest or something and he had to say the statement he said and that was gross yeah i i think it was if you watch that print that initial press conference like during practice right after it happened where he said that i believe the line john bork brought it up i think the line he had was that daryl morey seems uneducated on the situation it was like well first of all the words uneducated in daryl morey i don't know that you can put those in the same sentence with a straight face unless they're separated by is not but this is where lebron gets himself in trouble because i i think like he he's a smart guy who sometimes says dumb things. And I think it's the same story every time.

He lives by that social media era, just instant react, and he doesn't think. And so this was a situation where it happened in person with the media, but it was an instant response. And it was like, what do you think? I think he's uneducated about it. We need to get the story off this. What do I say? And he said something really fucking dumb and that's where i like that's what i'm going to criticize because i'm like okay you i understand you're in a tough spot here and now the camera's on you and you don't want to

now really bury the ship here and cost everyone all the money in the world but don't attack that guy that's the thing there's a difference between you know playing defense and going on the offense correct and he on the offense correct and he did the latter and it was horrible thing to see and everyone knew it was bullshit he knew his bullshit why his team didn't step up prior to that and i mean i'm sure his team said told him various shit to say but it's lebron james you know there was no one in the world bigger than him so what he says goes and he has 100 control over what he says he does he does and it's guys now are held to a higher standard because of the exchange of information and the amount of it we can get

and the places where you can communicate it so you know it's not fair to compare communication to other Generations that didn't have this that that I don't do but that's just look that's one example of a major league and a foreign power that you know has all this and whatever but you know it it's another overall example of the blurring of lines of borders and how this whole world is interconnected and money is what runs it well because at its core it's not just a major league it's a business adscore it's a business it's just like apple bowing down to China on some things. If you want your product in their country, you play by the rules, which I understand.

You may not agree with the rules. And I think that's what people have a problem trying to understand is you play by the rules. You play by the law of the land. You may not agree with it. If you are that against it, don't do business there but the end of the day money runs everything you know that's where the utopian thing though comes in for me because in theory you're right we shouldn't be you know if you don't want to play by the rules of somewhere else that you decide to be in good don't play by the rules but it's much easier for

say google to quote unquote take a stand and leave Google China when they weren't making any fucking money there versus Apple leaving China one day when, by the way, China produces all their parts at a low price so that we can actually afford these goddamn things. And secondly, they have an enormous market. You know, like you said it yourself, and it's i'm and i don't disagree with it you there is a responsibility you have to serve the shareholders you can't be like you know fuck that i'm gonna be a hippie today you know it's not that simple so i i push back on in the sense that you know that's that's where i don't have a good answer for you period i don't think there is one you know you know i i genuinely don't believe there's not there's a good answer. Or an answer that satisfies people. All people.

Right? Because a good answer is all relative. But the satisfaction of people receiving that answer is the hard part. Because at the end of the day, you're right. Businesses, they can do good. And like, to rope Apple in there, privacy is a very big thing here we go and here and i really appreciate apple taking that that stance but if it wasn't for all the bullshit from google and facebook would they be so adamant about it i don't know because they carve themselves a

niche of saying oh we're the most privacy-focused massive tech company. Awesome. It's also selling a lot of fucking iPhones. Can you explain to people why they have that argument? Like what precautions? You did say earlier, this came up a little bit and we touched it. You said that they'll ask permission for things for you to do. Are there other things too?

Yeah. for things for you to do. But are there other things too? Yeah, so they'll ask you if you, so if a website or an app or someone wants to track you, track information, whether it's, you know, location or whatever. Now there's going to be a prompt that it says, hey, you know, X wants to track you. Are you sure? You can either say yes or no. A lot of the data has been saying a lot of people have been opting out for obvious

reasons. Um, and that's why Facebook ran all these ads about, Hey, you know, we're trying to give you the best experience and, you know, please, uh, you're going to hurt the small businesses and all that. And it's like, come on, Mark, what do you, what are you saying? Fuck off. You see the video of him a few weeks ago on july 4th with the whole with the flat oh my god you didn't see that no the flag of him on lake tahoe when i say i'm not on the internet i'm really

not you are dude this was like zuckerberg he got remember remember the thing you definitely saw this one a couple years ago and i'm talking away from the mic people that's why i'm far away right now i'm trying to get it but a couple years ago when he wore like all the sunscreen on his face where he looked like a ghost i don't think you don't remember that i don't think i remember so this was him this time on lake tahoe he was just like i don't know what the fuck that looks like a submarine on top of the water but he had the i liked it he had the american flag going very patriotic mark trying to rebrand his image look i'll never say anything about bad about mark um because who knows maybe we'll be under the facebook umbrella one day oh god i got my

issues with facebook from a privacy perspective though i do appreciate them leading a charge in uh a mix the mixed reality sector uh like i've been saying all all podcasts there's good and there's bad yes uh And people can be both. Someone's not just 100% good or 100% bad unless you have a legitimate mental illness. Zuck has done an unbelievable job growing a company out of nothing. Yes. And now positioning himself for a potential max exodus of that platform to be a leader in the mixed reality space, you know, with that billion dollar acquisition of Oculus and now, and

you know, the Facebook reality labs is just the, so many people are, were hired for that. You know, you talk about thousands of people that, that will be their, you know, lasting legacy. Can you explain this whole thing? I've, I've heard about this deal. Anthony told me about this, but I've not researched this at all. So pretend I know nothing. Yeah.

So when you're looking at mixed reality, there's the obvious leader of Microsoft when it comes to volumetric, when it comes to the HoloLens, HMDs. Then there's the Apple and the Googles of setting the groundwork you know wanting to give you the good frameworks ar kit ar core that developers can use to create augmented reality experiences right and there's facebook facebook you know up until the oculus acquisition

you know a handful of years ago they were a social media company still our social media company, still are a social media company, ironically a social media company for the older generation now. But what they is trying to build on top of oculus uh create their own mixed reality hardware their own mixed reality operating system because at the end of the day as we've seen with you know lawsuits flying around everywhere between microsoft apple uh the whole app store thing the operating system and who owns the uh the key to that gate that's the important part part. And Facebook said, well, fuck. We don't have our own phone OS. We don't have anything like that.

We need to create an operating system. So let's say, let's charge forward with the whole mixed reality thing. Let's create our own mixed reality operating system. So when people use Oculus or they use our mixed reality headset, they're going to be using Facebook top to bottom instead of using someone's hardware like Apple,

using a Facebook application on Apple, because obviously we've seen what that can bring and people bitching about app store fees and all that stuff. So they bought, how long ago did they buy Oculus? Was that five, six years ago? Okay. So they're building out. So when I see all those people batting around the pinata in their living room, like I talked about, that's the Oculus usually that they're using. The Oculus is the VR headset now. Yes. Yeah. Okay.

So Facebook is trying to create that world. Which they have one foot in with the Instagram people, you know, because like they have the AR stuff like Snapchat has, right? So Instagram and Snapchat are big competitors. Snapchat just made a half a billion dollar acquisition of a, uh, uh, wave optics, a hardware company to, you know, create their spectacles and whatever their final, uh, AR glasses platform will be. Facebook and Snapchat are working in the dark that people don't really see to create the next phone, but ensuring that their operating system is front and center. But the phone is glasses. Right.

He who owns the hardware sets the rules. Yes. That's wild to think about. Because we're so tied into, you know, even if people are PC people, you're so tied into the mac os with the iphones that's the most common thing well i mean an ecosystem that was the point was you know that for better or for worse they have a walled garden and you know that brings security that brings privacy but that removes some freedoms right so like you know the ability to do things on android

or pc versus mac and ios you know that's why there do things on Android or PC versus Mac and iOS. That's why there's a whole jailbreak community around the iPhones. That's what Steve wanted. He wanted the Walt Garden. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Which I understand because security-wise, it is the best.

You know, you are the buck starts and stops with you. You know, and that's why for the longest time, Macs weren't really getting viruses. Whereas, you know, Windows and PCs were, you know, riddled with them. I do think they went extreme with it. I don't know of a better solution than what they did. But that's another thing is like, you know, clothes are open. In that sense, it's just like any logic gate,

you know, there's a flip on flip off you know zero and one so it's interesting to see how that's going to evolve with more players in the space uh when it comes to the operating system level and how far away do you think facebook is with this i guess like mixed reality multiverse kind of deal. The metaverse, I guess people are calling it. Yeah, metaverse, I'm sorry. Like how close to adoption are we? We talking mass adoption? How close are we to a significant portion of the population, A, being aware of, and B, at least interacting with,

if not adding their own thing into it, but at least watching other people be a part of it, are we, we've already hit the ladder, you know, everything with filters and everything. That's just step one. Let's step in the toe. And I think we're about, I think once Apple releases there, obviously nothing public yet, but once they release some news about their headset, let alone show it at a conference over the next one to two, two and a half years, that's going to be the whistle. We're going to see everyone really bring to public light what they're working on. Then we're in like the old school space race. Who can create the best? It's not always the first.

It's who does it best. Yes. USA wasn't the old school space race who can create the best it's not always the first it's who does it best yes usa wasn't the first in space certainly the best at it though yes okay so now i'm thinking a little bit based off what you started this with though because you were saying you like what facebook's doing building this this metaverse that is going to be on their operating system and everything. But obviously, as you just pointed out, Apple is working on the same thing in their operating system. So they are just directly competing with that. And hypothetically, Apple could end up winning this and making what Zuckerberg's doing irrelevant. I don't think making it relevant. There's always going to be room, especially when it're it's trillion dollar company against trillion dollar company so long as your product is good i mean everyone will probably not remember or you know they blacked

it out with the windows phone microsoft tried to make a phone and it was not great oh i remember it was not great and that's why we're down to essentially two companies. I will say too, because Samsung, you know, you make quality phones, but like you're using Android. Who's who owns Android? Google. Yeah. So at the end of the day, the person that owns the hardware and software aspect of it reigns King. And there can be multiple of them. There can be a handful of them because over the years, Apple, Google facebook snapchat they've grown their user bases loyal user bases what that'll mean for the next generation of hardware i'm not sure but it's we're seeing it i liken it to you know the cord cutting phase right you see netflix netflix was the end all be all. You saw Disney, you know, they own now Disney plus Hulu

ESPN. You see Comcast with Peacock. You see, uh, AT&T with HBO max list goes on and on. We won't have that degree of, uh, amount of participants in the race. And I think the court cutting we'll, we'll see consolidation, uh uh back towards the amount of companies uh but i do think in the in the sense of how many people can there be there will be multiple winners apple will win google will win facebook will win snapchat will win but outside of that you're going to have a lot of smaller people. My issue with Zuckerberg, and I don't want to be a hater and take away stuff. For one thing, if you look into that case,

he did not make that alone. The Winklevoss twins got fucked there. If they had waited an extra year to settle that case, Mark Zuckerberg would not own Facebook today. Those two would. Because what happened was there was a hardware drive that was released i i think a year after the case settled that had all the instant messages of zuckerberg right admitting that you know he basically took the idea and ran with it himself which he wasn't allowed to do anyway my issue with him is that he did create

an unbelievable thing with facebook you know being a part of that and then bringing it up like he was the guy that then brought it to market and everything. Right. But Facebook, the reason that they're so successful is because they are at that point now. They've been at that point where they can buy stuff to they can buy the talent. Right. And so I don't I'm not going to sit here and say, you know, Facebook's going to fail because guess what? Facebook's bank account is not failing. Last time I checked.

Oh, yeah. Right. going to fail because guess what facebook's bank account is not failing last time i checked oh yeah right but when i look at leadership in space i think that's going to be really hard for them to be an all-out leader or win a space moving forward because i look at what they've done and what they've done is he ruined facebook it's a fucking dumpster fire he made it uncool he took it from where the 12 to 16 year olds were loving it and moved it you know to try to appeal to everyone which is instantly when something is then no longer cool and you have your fucking uncle on there putting opinions up and people are like i'm out so then when instagram makes something he brilliantly goes in and buys it and then slowly

ripped that platform away when sistrom and krieger stepped aside officially in august 2018 the flood gates open and now instagram went from the most impressive beautiful user interface i ever saw to a dumpster fire and you know look at what he did to whatsapp with the data now everyone's on signal everything he touches dies so like to me that's fair to me, like Oculus, and I don't know nearly enough about Oculus. I'm not qualified to really go there. I know the basics, but a company like that, he bought them, he's running them, or he's telling them what to do. At least there's no reason he can't ruin that. And the fact of the matter is, I used to hit Apple for after Steve died. I'm like, two, three years after he died, I'm like, man, they don't have any innovation.

They're just building on top of what he did. And to an extent, that's kind of still the case. Still is. But they brilliantly are creating. There's some things I think they're fucking up, like some simplicity things. But for the most part part they are brilliantly iterating and they're putting themselves in a position with a war chest where they're going to be able to get the next steve in there and let him tell them what to do i don't see that

culture at facebook what i do see at facebook is their stock price going up yes agreed i think think trying to align on what I want to say with Facebook. Um, they made Facebook a very complex beast and that took away the joy of, uh, you know, gamification, you know, the whole swipe, right, swipe left, two button clicks, and you made a million dollars or whatever. And that's ironically why you see the older crowd gravitate towards it. It's, it's just whale-ish enough where they get their, their social fun out of it. And all the younger kids are going to, you know, Snapchat, which is, quick flash in the pan type picture thing. Um, Facebook is, is interesting because I don't think their lack of privacy-focused software will kill them because I don't believe the majority of people in the country or even world give two shits.

Will that change in the next decade? Maybe. I hope it does because I think your personal information should be extremely important to you and you should have total say over it. But I can see Facebook, since we're entering a new era, kind of reinvent themselves and create a platform that is extremely open, simple, and something that the, cause they are building a product for a new generation. It's a brand new thing. You know, they're starting from square one and everything they've done correct or wrong, whatever your opinion is, hopefully they've learned from it. And they're a massive enough

company where they can get it right. I hope that they do get it right for the sense of innovation and advancement. And I'm behind anyone who wants to evolve the industry and the world. Because I believe that we're entering a spatial future that the more the better, so long as it's handled correctly. Yeah, and I'm rooting for them. I want people, I want the great people

to make the great innovations. And as you said, handle it correctly. I know some of them won't and we'll have to deal with it as it happens i don't know who it's going to be i look at some tea leaves and say i see some things i don't like there but maybe they will be the ones like he's he is he has enough of an ego that i could see him like purposely destroying instagram while he's building this to fuck around and you know build the perfect thing i don't know but like that's my comments on zuckerberg yeah i want to get sistrom in that seat right there that would be lock the door and say hey bro just pretend it's you and me everything i want to hear it all because like you know what what they did i just have the ultimate if you would have told

a male in 2010 a teenage male hey five years from now you're going to be spending all your time on your phone on a white app where you double tap for a fucking heart and it's all in like size eight font and the women are using filters and guess what so are you they would have said when did my balls come off but guess what we all did that's how brilliant that goddamn thing was so i respect it and i hate what he what zuckerberg did to it so it's a little personal but back to apple because like and i appreciate you clearing up some of the data things again because it's still it spins around in my head a lot but i look at some of the other examples when it comes to the actual privacy of

the phone itself and i see a couple different narratives and I don't really know how it works I know some of it but I I know what I read through what other people say and now I'd like to go to a source who does know a lot about this so on one hand you could see something like the San Bernardino shooter which happened back end of 2015 and very quick spark notes the San Bernardino shooter killed all these people awful guy the government was asking tim cook to unlock his iphone and tim cook huge shout out to him he said no not because he didn't hate that guy and want the government to be able to get whatever they needed to save other lives but he said if i do this where's the slippery slope and what

happens next so that was a very very hard decision and he did a great job for sure the other end of it is when we've looked at the government's power and we've mentioned snowden in passing a few times today but let's just go straight down that so what snowden was talking about with the government being able to spy on everyone has to do with legislation that was passed and things that were basically cutting around the law and breaking the constitution to do it but how did they do it they did it by as he'll explain it your iphone your anything connected to the internet your camera on your on your laptop and and the phone especially like let's just go back to that

they can spy on whatever like they can look into what you're doing at any time right they have to do that through an apple product so is that apple not protecting it or does apple just not have any ability to stop it oh that's a gray area because it's an apple product from where you enter the internet but the internet is a big space uh because you could talk about you know user information on the phone you could talk about the internet at large and you can also talk about the cloud-based part of apple right so like this the stuff that isn't necessarily stored on phone but stored maybe in the cloud their servers whether it's their servers or google's servers or amazon servers so it's it's the question of uh who's responsible for what and at the end of the day it's it's a

murky area because your information is all sorts of places and it can be accessed from a bunch of vulnerable points um i do i will say that apple protects the shit out of their hardware for sure as well as their cloud on their back end they do a hell of a job doing it then how does the government look in through my through my iphone camera the not that they're looking at me but i'm saying like they could be looking at anyone the and that's why a lot of these companies have a uh either you see like the flaps on the phone now or you have like little light indicators that should go on whenever someone is looking through your shit, like on a MacBook. So like you put on FaceTime or something, there should be like a little green dot that goes on that says, hey, video is live. Or like on your phone, you'll notice the orange or green dot now with the new iOS that says, hey, your microphone is live.

Why is it live but it's it's interesting it's uh the government snowden revealed a lot of shit for sure he did and i'm a big fan of his and what he did uh but it's it's interesting how the government has a lot more, and I believe it was total bullshit that they couldn't get into the phone themselves. I don't believe that. They definitely can. Yeah. They did. And they have.

They did. Yeah, exactly. I don't know why they brought it public. Because they wanted to make a point that we are the decision makers here. Apple, you bowed us and Tim was like yeah wait wait no hold on let's build on that they might have brought it public so that they'd put it in Tim Cook's Court to up or not fucked up yeah it's a struggle and then when he was like no we're not doing it they're like see Tim said we couldn't do it so all right all right pack up

go home boys it's over whereas in reality they things are only public at that scale when they want it to be public. Obviously, that was a strategy on the government's end, that they wanted it public because they wanted to set a precedent. They set one for sure. But that just grows distrust in them. Whereas Apple said, you know what, we are not the government. You can you can believe in us and you can know and be sure of that we'll try and protect your information. So long as it's not an extreme potential edge case. But Apple does great. I don't know as much about other companies when it comes

to Google or Facebook or even telecoms. That's a you know, Comcast and the Verizons of the world, how they are able to work with governments, uh, and, and, and give information. All this stuff is not, you know, you know, very public. You might find it on some forums and whatnot, but at the end of the day, for most of the companies or a lot of the companies, they're okay collaborating with the government because the government and that circles back to like why are there so many loopholes in tax code and stuff like that it's just it's a team game it is but it's the literal definition of down the slippery slope we go and we're already down it and it's like right you know one of my big things about snowden is that the guy did this amazing thing to me and he violated a slippery slope which is the argument there because he did have to break the chain of command to do it so what does the next guy do yep i still have to be a pragmatist

and look at it and say what was the reality of the situation here if he had taken that into the chain of command that is he ever heard from again oh no no of course this was the only way for him to do it and i deem it on unfortunately a hypocritical basis as yes it was it was far more than important enough for him to do it my problem is it happened and most people six months later were like oh yeah that no one really they're like wow this guy was leaking all this shit and everyone knew what he did but they didn't know what he did they didn't actually pay attention to it and then why would they why would they it's like cows to the glue factory man and you know i i feel like it's almost in vain what he did because we have a lot of problems in whatever it is, it could be social issues, it could be our government and all the things you and I may complain about about that. I will still say that we have the best overall country and systems in the world, and I just want to look to improve them but it scares me when i see things that it's like

this is where it starts and if it keeps going there will be a point it's not tomorrow it's probably not 10 years from now but there will be a point where we might not be able to say that anymore i think we'll always be king of the shit mountain you know i I think as we grow, the rest of the world will grow as well and bad will grow with it. But it's, it is interesting thinking about, you know, even like the next 10 or 15 years in that regard, I don't know, looking back 15 years ago, 20 years ago before Snowden, uh, you, you kind of lived in some sort of blissful ignorance, I guess, for a lot of people.

And the majority of people still do. Because why? Because the media doesn't want to, they don't want you to see that stuff. Because obviously all these big media conglomerates are friends with each other and friends with the government and all that. They care about,

they don't care about you knowing everything and learning they want to keep you riled up for one reason or another so the next 10 or 15 years are we going to see another snowden are we going to see another event like that as time goes on i i bet so and i and i hope so because we do need a level of i guess visibility and transparency uh but at the same time I can I can understand the the government not wanting secrets leaked out uh but at the same time again uh because you know for National Security and all that but what are they actually doing because like I get don't give your competitor or you know a a foreign hostile group knowledge. But at the same time, what are they doing to us or for us or to them externally or for them externally?

There is a trade-off. A massive one. Yeah. Yeah. There always will be. I'm cool with that. There's an extent to it. And people, this is another one, people will yell at you,

be like, then you're forgiving up all your data. I'm not. Extremes. But there there is extremes there is a trade-off and i might add another thing that is not said nearly loud enough that he deserves a ton of credit for is the precautions he took in this release were fucking brilliant oh yeah to this day even the people in government who hate him the most they cannot say that a single death happened because of what he did and how he it's unbelievable so he wasn't just some jerk off like here's my hard drive go he was tactical about it and so i respect the hell out of it but yeah like will we need another one yeah we will when it happens how much farther down the rabbit hole are we you know how much farther down the slope are we? Like, where do you put this back in the bag?

It's like, you know, you even saw and you see all these people who have convinced themselves that Bill Gates is putting a microchip in them with a vaccine. I think that's ridiculous and everything. And I'm not going to sit here and get caught up in that argument. But like one place where I'll say, you know, the same people will then take another argument is when they talk about like the passports and stuff and digitally and I'm like, okay, I see the argument there. That's that's different. It's not like did you get it or didn't you because you believe in science or you don't? It's like, well, now it's like, where does that kind of thing end? Because it's not just this right now. It's the same kind of argument. And I'm okay when we go there because i give this argument when we're talking about snowden but look i'm at fault man i didn't know like i was not i was what like 19 when he came out 18 19 when when he came out with this i was not sitting there going have you seen what edward snowden just did i was i was in college of course i was drinking and fucking you know what i mean and i didn't didn't become aware of it literally until he went on Joe Rogan and I listened to it and I was like. Because it didn't impact you.

It didn't. And why would you care? Why? I don't know. But that's hypocritical. And now I'm like, I want everyone to know about it and whatever. And I see so many people who still don't because there is some sort of a light on it. And that's why i try to be

like a realist with where the data trade-off is like i know we got to give up a lot and there's an extent to which i'm okay with that but where do you draw the line and then where do you draw the line on who handles it and like one of my other friends who i won't say who or where so people take this how you will but i i cannot put anything on it he's someone who would know put it that way but um he talks about how there is a button like and he's exaggerating there but he's like there's there's a button that the government has back end back door to all these companies and if they want it they got it and the companies are aware of it and it's like okay as long as it can't be used in a court of law fine but i've also seen that game play out

right they do use it i mean i i will die on this hill all due respect that's how they got ross ulbrich on the silk road oh yeah 100 for sure but what do you think of that because like the the i'm not talking about the event itself we can talk about that like they got having a button yeah they got to his server. There's no, I mean, I've talked to coders left and right there. Their explanation was stupid.

Like the FBI didn't just like suddenly like, Oh, we landed on his server called frosty. They illegally got in there. Of course they did. What other way was there? Especially, you know,

it's a murky area for sure. But the old thing is, you know, if you have nothing to hide, why hide it? And I get that. But at the same time, I want to be able to know that people are not peering into me internally and externally by the sense of like they can not get into my server, but like they can not see through my phone or stuff like that. So I do understand the government needing the ability to do that for massive threats. Because I think that we've thwarted

multiple terrorist attacks, multiple in the scale of tens to hundreds that we'll never hear about because they've done stuff like that. And I think that's where you go back to that trade-off is it worth it for the i guess greater good of things yes but to what degree and do i trust the government doing it i've never trusted the government on anything so it's like but also go to go back to like does it impact me no until it does and that's it the good and evil argument that's it's it's the same one that's been cited maybe 30 and 30 episodes on this podcast since

but the one i already talked about earlier in here with the with the with the horo episode number 17 that was the entire argument like you can't you can't have it both ways if you want these companies to innovate and you want a free market then guess what they are permitted to do the things they're going to do but if you are so worried about you know the tamping down on speech so to speak and data privacy and things like that then there's things that aren't going to happen and it's that's why i'm stuck in between it because I see the upsides and downsides of both. And I don't really have an answer for you. But I do like to hear about where companies are making some effort, you know,

and then what I care about is can governments use that. And let me take that a step farther. I worry less about our government and the power to use tech against us because yes it bothers me that they can get away with things like the silk road thing but let me play devil's advocate and let's say even though i'm a ross supporter ross did have to go to jail right like oh yeah he did that of course that was not good and i understand the point he was trying to make but you can't create an international drug market. So that said, two life sentences, the way they did the case, ridiculous.

It's fucking insane. For sure. So I can look at them knowing that, hey, the final result is we're going to get this guy, and that's good. But then the slippery slope of them doing it there, where else do they do it? Same argument, right? them doing it there where else do they do it same argument right despite all that with our government i'm less concerned i'm gonna get yelled at for this but it's true i'm less concerned about where this goes with the generation of tech with our government than i am with other governments who then can come to our people and do it right i want everyone to be free around this world but i

recognize that not everyone is so is that any different than our government doing that 100 and and if i were in another country and i saw those patterns i'd be saying the same thing and i should right absolutely should but like i think of something that i can definitely say with a straight face clearly is much worse which is like a communist government in china oh yeah and i go okay if they got access to this stuff in the future, now what happens? Oh, they've had access before us. What they've been able to do is, I mean, they're the largest world power. They've got a billion people.

They are. Massive. I mean, they are communist. Yeah. The government is. Yes. The government, make sure I say that, the government is communist. The people are, not all the people.

Right. Yeah. And I'd liken that to like the whole Hitler Germany thing, you know. But our country does, outside of treating their own people poorly, you know, the whole Muslim, whatever, Muslim thing. Our country is just a little better at not having it be public uh even though i don't know i don't know if i could say that definitively because like our news is purely domestic driven we don't even get much news externally like in the sense of learning about other countries and problems, other countries have outside of what you see on the internet. I mean, you're not really getting much from,

you know, your, your basic news channels, but what have we done that? That is at that level of bad, not level of bad of like, you know, killing your own citizens or whatever,

but level of bad about using technology and stuff like that to a crazy advantage to do harm against other countries it's like the whole russia thing with the whole uh election uh stuff which look if your citizens are that easily moved by a troll post then like fair game because like we got a lot of dumb people here they are and they are you right it's just crazy that we are not anywhere near a saint and there's a reason why uh a lot of people hate us and a lot of people hate all world powers of course for you know one or another reason uh but we do a lot of bad stuff uh it's just not as public or as public in our news whereas if you maybe were i'd like an external perspective of our country and our government uh you know from another country on the other side of the world not even like canada or mexico you know somewhere else

what are their actual thoughts on us based on the information they know fair very fair so it's it's it's an interesting conundrum uh and it's it and it's also why like i don't believe a in there should be a world police or b that we should be the world police because like who the are we we're just another country trying to make it and we have the same maybe less corrupt government than like you know a taliban or something like that yes definitely definitely yeah definitely but like we do our own bad as well yes and and once again it comes down to the trade-off not the trade-off but like the balance of there is bad there just happens to be a higher level of good in the system here than in other places so let's look to improve the bad

and let's point it out where it is yeah i i remember i talked about this a few episodes ago with somebody but there was a scene in homeland you ever watch that show i have not a huge fan but i appreciate the show a lot it was i think it just got too long in the tooth i think they kept going and i kind of faded but some of it early on especially was was really good in my opinion but there was what I think it was season four I forget the guy's name but there was this one really sadistic terrorist that they was the main bad guy in the season and it's interesting because I know this is a story but it's based on ideas that exist out there and I find myself trying to get really into

the head of someone like that and why they could think these things like i did the same thing with osama bin laden all the time who was very interesting because he was literally from billions of dollars right you know like it was such a bizarre situation and so on one hand i can say of course this person's a very evil person but how did that happen and there was a line that this terrorist said in the show where it was something along the lines of America hates what it can't and doesn't want to understand. And that hit to me with what you just said about how we don't report on other things. We report the snippet that's going to like make a headline or like create an opinion and it's so true because then we just assume that everything we're doing is great or that we're the best or you know it's not really that big a deal or how we feel about this issue versus that one isn't going to affect another country and their ability to have an economy or earn money or whatever it is you know but that's not true and so you get like in order to get people like al-qaeda back

in the day you have to create things that piss those people off to a degree that you can't believe that allow that opposite reaction to form. Isn't social media just a microcosm of the whole concept? Yes. I don't see how it's not. Right? It's, yeah, that's a great line from that show. Wow. Oof.

Phenomenal. That's a really good line. But it's true. You know, there's a great line from that show. Wow. Oof. Phenomenal. That's a really good line, but it's true. You know, there's, but people don't care. We care about the highlight reel and we care about our highlight reel. Nothing else.

And then we also do point out, we try to point out good in other places that isn't, you know what I mean? Like we cherry pick, we, in, in order to fix bad here, we paint it all as bad.

And then we pick out things that supposedly are good in other places and it's like nope that's not a good idea you know yeah like the capitalism socialism thing trust me i have a lot of critiques of capitalism there's a lot of issues but i can also say that of the broad systems in the world that have been tried and tested it's not even close capitalism is the best system it's not even a question it's not even a question but because there are some people who legitimately have some gripes with things that capitalism has done to them or to groups of people that therefore have perpetuated things even if they have an argument there they then use that argument to say well look at fucking slovakia with with with socialism and they haven't even had a war in 20 years and it's like it's like it's like the the the minimum wage argument where like

oh this country did uh 15 an hour and like their country is like six million people and like you know a fraction that's the workforce and a fraction of that is like the workforce who's getting that minimum wage it's like oh well you know we got 350 million people here. Going back to like that, the large numbers thing, not everything. It's not a one size fits all thing. You know, universal health care doesn't necessarily mean it works everywhere. My views on that are, you know, irrelevant, but, you know, there's good and bad out of every type of model. And I think that's the that's the takeaway.

Health care is another one, though. Like, I've never heard a good solution on that no of course not no no and and i think i truly believe that the good people not the opportunists which there's plenty of opportunists but i'm saying like the people who are on one side or the other who's who are like good people i think they want the right things i think the right thing that that's it man there's no there's no correct right thing because right's all relative right it's true you know like there's no in the eyes of a terrorist they're doing the right thing

no who are we to say they're wrong outside of the fact like hey you're killing our people that is wrong the reasons they're doing that may be correct to them for for some religious perspective or something else you know and that's why like we are a terrorist as well fuck that's deep man fuck that's deep and yeah it's putting the shoe on the other foot it's really which people hate fucking doing they hate it they want their one shoe and that's it and they think they think that they're good at it too that's the worst part when people are like they're convinced that they're so right that they're the empathetic and emotionally understanding one and in reality they're telling 50 of people to go fuck themselves it's like no you know so i don't deal with people

that's what what is your dream man because like you're building all this shit you're young you've already built something before this so you've had success and now it's like the second thing is like the big big big boy thing but like do you look at this like 20 years from now are you going to be in there building the next thing or are you the guy that's going to like sell all his possessions and move to Nepal and never be heard from again? Oof. I mean, I think there's a middle ground there. I'm not going to sell my possessions. I also don't possess a lot, nor do I want to material. I'm not very materialistic. Uh, I want to do good and I want to be happy. Uh, that's the core of how I make decisions.

Um, what's happiness, Dean? That I can go to bed without hating myself. That's what happiness is to me. And that's hard to get. I think for a lot of people, that's hard to get. And it's just the endless cycle of another day and another day and another day. And a lot of people can't wait until the end, whatever the end may be. And however they go about doing the end in my mind, I don't believe there is

an end and, you know, to segue into the whole, what do I, what's the next thing? Uh, I want to get out of the tech industry at large. I don't want to deal with consumers. I don't want to deal with other companies in the sense that deal with consumers. I don't want to deal with other companies in the sense that deal with consumers. Um, I want to keep solving problems at my pace and work with people. I enjoy working with like I do now and work with people towards a common goal.

Uh, whether it's to, uh, further space travel, make us a multi-planetary or multi-universal, uh, if you believe there's more than one universe uh or do you that's a long conversation okay all right very long conversation

that's next time i will say that uh i guess the the one spot i'm extremely passionate about obviously i've made you know a few physics drops this, uh, in this podcast is, you know, solving death because death is just a problem that we haven't been able to solve yet, whether it's biologically or technologically or a mixture of the both. Uh, there's a solution out there. Once we understand more of, you know, the theory of everything or more of understanding of the brain and consciousness and what then what the fuck consciousness is you know we don't know that but that's what i'd like to you know give my time to is helping understand that and look if i'm able to you know play any part in that with everyone who's come way way before me and who's doing it now awesome and you know if we solve some shit awesome and you know maybe we find the. And you know, if we solve some shit, awesome. And,

you know, maybe we find the way to, you know, stave off death or, you know, however you want to go about that. That's just where I want to be, uh, I guess in my life. Do you think we are of the generation that could have the ability to be immortal. Oh, well, 1000%. Yep. Yeah, for sure. So you're kind of on that Kurzweil vibe. Yes,

I do. I do believe that. Well, I mean, the sense of life and immortality is, is crazy. Cause you know, some of that is based on argument of like uh a soul and like who are

you as a person but like it could just be a bunch of quantum shit that's just going on in this gob of glue that we're able to then replicate and then extract and then you can still be you um i i want to i just want to keep learning and just becoming better and more and, you know, give back to the world that a lot of it I hate due to the inhabitants. But the theory of humanity, I love and appreciate. And I guess above humanity, because outside the, you know, the biological part of, is the idea of higher knowledge. And that theory is something I want to help ensure continues on in some regard, whether it's humans in this sense, humans in an android sense, or humans in the sense of just consciousness,

being able to go through a wormhole to somewhere else, just that ability to, to do more and to do good. That's an answer that should play many years from now when a lot said and done, because that's, that's what I would be looking for in somebody who's going to have, who's going to hone incredible intellectual capabilities like you and have the passion to build things like you and then go out and leverage the former and the latter. I think that a lot of times we see people who have a, they have an objective outside of finding new innovation and more of an objective of creating the world they want to see

and when you are truly open to so many different things like you just laid out and are curious about the like one very simple thing that ties every single person together no matter what which is like living and dying like i think that that gets to a point where it's like you're in it for the beauty of the game. And I got the same sense getting to know Anthony and Riley, and I get the same sense with you. And it's pretty amazing that the three of you are building something together based off of that type of belief. And it's so out there and open, and now it's also there for anyone to see on the internet by doing this. You know, it gives you hope that there is a lot of that out there and there's not just things that start to you know go for an agenda but you know looking at the the battle of life and death the other battle i i don't

maybe you brought up in there but it was it was a wild all over the place answer but the battle between human and machine is a big part of that. You said earlier somewhere in some context – I can't even fucking remember this one. But you were like tech is moving, is evolving faster than humanity. And you thought that's an okay thing, and it might be. But I think about this all the time. These pictures are picked out for certain reasons. And the one I'm pointing to over here is the

Rethinking of the painting of the hand of God and Adam but instead it's the hand of God in a robot and like you know I look at things like what Nick Bostrom has to say in the book super intelligence. I don't know if you ever read that I know about it. I've not read it. You got to read that. It's it's wild, but I see these people lay out these unbelievable arguments for simulation and also the problem with machines potentially overtaking what we can do on a human level. And it scares me because the way to get to solve a problem like death is to leverage the power of machines. We make robots in our vision, just like the religion,

religions say God made us in his image. So it's just cyclical we're we're making something to hopefully be able to be something that can then evolve just like we evolved yes and it's an interesting concept um and there's a lot of different answers on it and i am not the qualified person to ask on it i who is then i don't know but i'm gonna fucking find them because i hope once i get out of this venture and into doing what i want to do outside of this uh i hope i'm the dumbest guy in the room and i can learn that much about it because that is those are the questions i want answers to because those

are it doesn't get more difficult or more core to existence is the answers to those questions what about the dumbest guy in the room though because like i hear you say that and i'm going to speak for you right now i know that there are smarter people out there than you of course right like i frankly i think he's smart and you are all due respect but like yeah not many i think there are not when i say many there's seven and a half eight billion people it's all relative a very very small percentage of people and i ask you this because yes i think in the spaces you're running in and the things you're looking to do you will be able to get into those rooms where you are not the smartest person in it i think you've already

entered plenty of them where that's the case. I don't know that there's going to be a lot of rooms unless there's two or three people in there, including yourself, where you're going to be the dumbest guy in the room. And I ask this because like, I do think about it from the perspective of an Elon, right? Who I view as this genius and have studied what he does and how he talks and what he says and you don't want to be the guy to your point that walks in there and goes i'm the smartest in the room because then that's where you start to play god right right but what about when you are i because i can't relate i'm not the smartest guy in the room what about when you are is there a responsibility that you can recognize that and instead of saying i'm the smartest guy in the room what about when you are is there a responsibility that you can recognize that and instead of saying i'm the smartest guy in the room i know what to say instead be like but i can get a

lot of other smart people in here and all them together can come up with shit better than i do well smartest doesn't necessarily mean you have all the answers right so like the ability to suss out answers along with other at a threshold you know there's the there's a level of of intelligence a person has to have but there's outside the intelligence it's the openness and the willingness that it's kind of a trifecta of sorts you want people that are open to the same concepts of i want to learn i want to evolve i want to be better because you you know, intelligence outside of IQ, which I have views on IQ and measuring that you just want to be in a group that everyone doesn't necessarily think about that. It shouldn't be like, oh, shit, I'm the smartest person in the room because that's the case. Then that's a room you probably shouldn't be in.

Mm hmm. Yeah. then that's a room you probably shouldn't be in yeah and and that's why i ask it though because when you get to a certain echelon and you're trying to create certain things be it the space race the metaverse race the fucking death race whatever it is you know you get into those rooms where it's like well the reality is someone in here is the smartest and we're not dealing with like you know who's gonna have the best small business around here we're dealing with the future humanity it's a weird thing i i don't really know how to phrase it or how to think about it. But before I do let you out of here, I wanted to get at least a little bit

to the space thing that's been mentioned like in passing a few times today, because I know you're really into it. I have to check myself on a couple things that i've gotten more interested in but that i've never had enough curiosity on and to be honest that is space and then another level of it the more conspiratorial level would be the aliens thing which my my boy alessi alamon has been getting me into that more because he's all about it has a great podcast by the way i'll get you on there but you know like now i'm paying attention to it a little more but not not to go straight to aliens on on the space side of it it is amazing to me when i go and look at the tech i mean i made a mention of it earlier but when i go to look at

the tech we have now versus what we had 20 years ago and how we can take things literally for granted i mean that in a good way that we can do and yet i still kind of hear the same news clippings of like oh we might go to mars but it's so much more than that oh my god well it's kind of like mars was the end game for a lot of people for a lot of years but the not for the scientific community right mars was just the next step it's the next launching off point mars is cool and all but like there's outside of a massive solar system a massive galaxy universe the the idea that and we do have an insane amount of technology right now i mean we just saw what you know rockets landing themselves like what that's crazy this is you know shit out of science fiction from

you know you know a handful of decades ago it's's unbelievable, but it's not about Mars. It's about evolution and, you know, becoming multi-planetary to be able to say, okay, what of, I guess, intellectual people we have and the more amount of knowledge is still growing exponentially more the more people you have. So the ability for us to solve some issues that are potentially blocking the exponential increase of other problems is what I like about technology and solving core issues like death. Fuck, man. I think I've said that 10 times. You just leave some mic. This was a hard one for me. And that's a compliment because there were a few times today where like you were going through a few things and I'm trying to track.

I'm like, I think I see what he's saying. And then you landed the point. You just looked at me and I'm like, oh, fuck, it's my turn. Like, holy shit. I've been in enough of those conversations on your side that i know exactly what you all right well look you're such a interesting guy culturally and we didn't even talk like i know you're really into music you're really into basketball which we touched on a little bit but not really like you're really into all these other things and we didn't get there but like this is one of those when i'm going back and literally

while editing it where it's very hard to consume the content i'm just getting all the cameras right and shit right and taking the notes i'm gonna be like wait what the fuck just got said what like so i enjoy the hell out of that and to your point about not wanting to be the smartest guy in the room it's great when i when i get guys in here and i feel like a moron because i know that like in a good way all the listeners can too and we can all learn from it and we can also get you at a point same thing goes with anthony and riley as i've said before where it's like we're tracking you guys along the journey of what you're building and you know now there's some things that can be going public pretty soon as far as right what you can show people with which i I've seen, and it's fucking nuts.

And it's cool that you guys have given the trust to come in here and talk your way through it while that's going on. So I really, really appreciate it, man. And I look forward to doing this again. It's been really fucking cool, and you are one of the sharpest people I've ever met in my life. Hell of an experience. I mean, I learned a lot. I mean, you're a very bright guy. The amount of shit I was able to learn and even just stuff that I didn't necessarily know right off the bat or knew a little bit about, uh, it's extremely fascinating. I really want to come back to this cause I enjoy, I knew I would enjoy it. I didn't realize I would

enjoy it to this degree well that's that's the best thing i can get back and hell yeah like absolutely we will you will definitely be on here again so long as you come through up to you but yeah it's where i can get that exchange and thank you for i don't know what the hell you got from me but that's awesome you know and and like eventually we'll do a studio where we'll have some bongs ripping in here as well and really get deep and meta about some stuff but you know I'm working my way there if you know what I mean for sure

so Baker thank you brother and everybody else you know what it is give it a thought get back to me peace you