Julian Dorey Podcast - #65 - Anthony Fenu: "Building The Other Universe"

Episode Date: September 15, 2021

Anthony Fenu is the Co-Founder & CEO of Soar, a spatial technology company that specializes in AR/VR and compression innovation. The company’s mission is to make volumetric technology (like holograms) a central part of our everyday lives. ***TIMESTAMPS*** 0:00 - Anthony’s tells the story of the two attempted armed robberies at his and his high-profile neighbor’s house over the past week 19:36 - Why wasn’t Jake Paul a hologram in this last fight?; The replication of proprietary tech risk; Anthony’s strategy tips for a Series A Funding round 42:10 - The Metaverse: What is it, how does it work, are there many of them, what is its effect on humanity, Soar’s role in building it 51:17 - Soar wants to bring back dead people with their tech; “I don’t know how you deal with this every day”; Discussing the trash dump that is Facebook; Instagram’s disgraceful UI / UX descent into hell; TikTok’s design brilliance 1:26:51 - Facebook building the Metaverse (this is scary); “The Uncanny Valley”; Lil Miquela is getting frighteningly real; the finiteness of the Metaverse 1:56:08 - What’s going on in London and Australia right now; Founders who sell their soul for money; Anthony tells a story about a sell-out; free speech and the modern government; Julian threatens Anthony not to sell Soar (not really, but still) 2:20:03 - The power of going on record on a long form podcast like this while building a company of the potential magnitude that Soar could achieve; Star Power’s Upsides and Downsides 2:41:24 - Elton John is invested in Soar; Anthony lists off and describes a bunch of Soar prominent investors / team members; Soar’s guy in Australia who wrecks everybody online; Soar investor / advisor Aaron Lee Zucker’s turnaround of Call of Duty back in the day 3:06:28 - Anthony’s email to the Soar team that described the dreams and aspirations of the company ~ YouTube EPISODES & CLIPS: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0A-v_DL-h76F75xik8h03Q  ~ Get $100 Off The Eight Sleep Pod Pro Mattress / Mattress Cover: https://eight-sleep.ioym.net/trendifier  Julian's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey  ~ Beat provided by: https://freebeats.io  Music Produced by White Hot Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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first two things i led with right there but there's a reason for that so first of all i am joined in the bunker today by my very good friend mr anthony fenu and i saved this part for last because this marks a year into this podcast. Today, the episode is coming out on September 15th, 2021, and we started this podcast on September 15th, 2020. So I'm recording this intro the day before, so that's tomorrow. But what a wild ride. It has been crazy building this thing. It's obviously hard like anything else in

life anything worth doing is hard but it's so much fun man and and to see all you guys come in and believe in this show so early on is it's one of the most gratifying things in the world so i'm doing my best to continue to build this out into a better and better show and to see where everything is compared to starting on zero like it did is is a pretty amazing amazing thing we're we're nowhere near where we need to be but the early work has been incredibly incredibly rewarding and i can see that it's it's it's getting there it's it's on its way so we're going to keep it rolling but i'm really grateful that this this has gone on like this and continues to progress as it does. And I'm grateful for all of you who have made that possible.

So thank you. The reason I brought in Anthony for this episode is because Anthony's first time here was number 30. And I'll be frank. That was before this thing had an audience. I had maybe like 100 listeners an episode back then. And now there's a lot more. So a lot of people, a lot of you probably aren't familiar with him.

And his episode was a big turning point episode for me because it was a complicated subject matter with someone I didn't know when he walked in here and we really were able to bring it to the people in a very digestible way. And I think a pretty entertaining way, which was cool. So it also developed a really good friendship between Anthony and I and also that extended to his team. I'm very close with Riley and Justin who were here for numbers 50 and 58, his co-founders. Giovanni who was here for number 34 who's also when co-founders. Giovanni, who was here for number

34, who's also when he came in, wasn't a part of SOAR yet, but was introduced to me by Anthony. John Rondi, Johnny Drinks is another guy I met through Anthony. Chaz Servino has been doing a lot of work like on the side with a bunch of us working on some things around SOAR. So it's just very, very, very cool to see how this is all kind of tied together back to the podcast but for those of you that aren't familiar with anthony and maybe if you didn't hear numbers 50 and 58 soar the company that anthony is a co-founder with riley and baker on that he is the ceo of is that they're a hologram company they live stream holograms because they own the number one and only of its kind fastest compression algorithm to be able to do that in the world

which sounds crazy because it is and so this is something like holograms are something we think about in movies that started being talked about as much as 40 50 years ago but it's like it's never been here it's the future right well now it's kind of here so the last time anthony was here i found out about a lot of it on the show i went in pretty eyes wide shut so it's pretty cool to like be like what you're doing what oh my god like whatever what our goal was that time though was we were trying to keep it very simple and we were trying to make it all digestible. This time I wanted to get really meta. No pun intended because we talked a lot about the metaverse.

But I wanted to get really deep and ask complicated questions that would break my brain. And so a couple times I did and if you've been curious about that term the metaverse and some of the things around that because it's just this buzzword people are throwing around. It is a very legit term despite some of the people who are throwing it around like a $2 word. And it is something that we're talking about creating like a new world. And this guy is at the forefront of it because what he's doing – I don't want to tie my tongue here because we'll talk about it in this episode. But what he's doing is directly related to building that. And so we got deep into that. We also got deep into his vision.

And so the second half of the episode went into a lot of that and asked some hard questions. There's a lot of things that can happen with tech like this that is tough to think about. And I can't imagine being in his shoes. And I asked him about it on here we also talked a lot for the first time publicly about some of his investors and some of the guys on his team as far as like well they're also investors too but guys who are like advisors who are who are some big names I think he mentioned for the first time publicly that Elton John is one of the people his family office is invested in soar

and there might have been a few others i forget but he went public with some of that stuff today which was cool but love this convo it made all the sense in the world to bring him in for the one year just symbolically i thought it was really cool and i like the idea as i've said in the intros to baker's episode and and riley's episode i like the idea of getting these guys along the pathway to greatness and and doing these things you know a lot can go wrong there's no guarantees in life there's no guarantees that they wouldn't screw this up but i'm betting on these guys because i like them a lot i've seen them work and it's a fact that they have the tech that no one else has right now. And that's pretty fucking unbelievable.

So thank you to Anthony for coming in. A quick note. We do have like the first 10, 15 minutes. You'll hear that goddamn lawnmower a little bit. We waited like an hour to start. I swear to God these guys troll me. But right when he came in here on cue at a time they usually don't come. There were like 20 industrial lawnmowers right outside the studio. They like riding up the street i've never seen anything like it so finally

i got sick of it i'm like fuck it we're starting so we did but that goes away within like 10-15 minutes and it's a little bit in the background and then there was also a video i was looking for in there that i couldn't find so we didn't show it but i don't know if you saw jeff bezos when he got back from that space trip and he did that evil laugh it's terrible but I couldn't find it when we get to that part if you just want google that if you haven't heard it it's pretty wild so other than that I don't think I have any other notes so I'll just finish by saying thank you once again to all of you for a year and it's gonna be another hundred years after this hopefully so let's we're just

getting started. Let's keep this thing going. That said, you know what it is. I'm Julian Dory and this is Trendafire. You're giving opinions and calling them facts. You feel me? Everyone understands this, but few seem to do it. If you don't like the status quo, start asking questions. So I hear that right now, Baker is sitting at home on the front porch right there with a 12 gauge shotgun and the word on the street is that he is now also doubling as the armed security for what has become a high crime neighborhood over there yeah yeah apparently we're in uh just absolute chaotic times so what's been going on you guys you guys have been getting your house hit it's like the purge yeah yeah no rules no rules whatsoever since covid now so we had a new neighbor somewhat high profile neighbor i guess yeah at least we'll keep his name out of

it yeah yeah and uh yeah i'm not trying to talk something yeah uh including myself um not that anybody's like out to get me but i don't think they're out to get him either it's just like somebody that is a public figure of sorts um yeah it attracts some level of people trying to rob you yeah yeah robbery intrigue i don't know it could be a combination maybe it's like what's going on what is he yeah who knows but what happened in the first one the second one i talked about with you but the first one was like a week ago or something like that there's some dudes that rolled up and they were trying to break into your house because they thought it was his to to be honest i have no

idea we just saw a couple guys in ski masks come running up the driveway and fucking riley's in the garage sitting in his car all the lights are off because like when you pull into the garage it's got that like auto light so the light turns off if you're if there's no movement in like i don't know two three minutes something like that so the light goes off he's still sitting in his car probably sitting on his phone answering texts or whatever and fucking couple guys come running up the driveway jesus blacked out ski mask yeah chaos and uh he saw him turns the car on starts flashing his high beams they book it the other way and he fucking pulls out of the driveway starts chasing him i'm in the backyard um like near the grill so if you if you like lean over you can kind of see and i didn't see the guys but i see him peel the fuck out and i just texted him like hey

you home i saw him i saw his lights as he like backed in cut he cuts the lights off to be like courteous to the neighbors so like midway through backing into the garage he'll just like cut the lights so i see him back in i say hey you home uh kind of caught the light wasn't too sure um and then i just see him peel out doesn't answer the text um and apparently so what he was saying was those two guys ran to a car that was parked in the street. And, like, we live on a dead end. So they must have went down to the cul-de-sac, turned around, and were sitting, like, ready to book it. And the guy in the driver's seat was also blacked out, ski mask, whatever. So they were, like, they knew how to get out.

Because anybody else, like, the street curves so you would have no idea that you couldn't go out that way and like logically you should be able to go out that way they just never connected it so um i don't know why but um but that was just the first one yeah that was the first one so riley chases these fucking guys well how long did he chase him for it sounded like he just chased him out in the neighborhood but he was yeah after maybe like five minutes or so we're doing like a buck 10 down side roads and then there's there's this big curve uh near the golf course and i guess they hit that curve at like over a hundred holy shit and uh he riley's pretty ballsy

clearly oh my yeah i'm not hitting that curve at 100 i'm going into the golf course that's happening yeah so they took it and he slowed down he was like oh i'm not gonna die tonight and then like i guess by the time he made that curve not long they were like they were pulling away a good bit so these guys are absolute pros no question about it yeah I mean they were dumb luck I guess but yeah I'm gonna say probably the former so then that was wild when that storm was happening a few days ago where yeah and then tornado was happening which was like the way, that was less than a mile away from here, which is crazy because we didn't feel a thing. I was sitting here wondering if my electricity is going to go out. I'm like, oh, what the fuck?

And then people are texting me like, bro, are you okay? I'm like, about what? And then I take a look. I'm like, holy shit. I mean, it was a full-blown tornado. But that whole storm was all over South Jersey, and you were getting hit with it there. And these guys tried to hit you in the middle of that whole thing yeah yeah yeah i missed the tornado because i thought i was in the middle of an armed robbery but yeah no they so i i don't know what

i don't know what happened right but um they were so i i must have had something dropped off right and i wasn't expecting anything um so this is it took me like a day and a half to figure this out so they dropped something off it must have fell like off the side of the steps in the front um and i didn't see it our yeah maybe i shouldn't talk about the security system at the house too much but let's not give away all the secret codes yeah anyway um i i didn't see where that was right so had no idea that something got dropped off i just see this person run away and then like must have saw me or something get scared and booked it right so you're trying to hit your house again with a pa plate well so turns out maybe he was just delivering something i wasn't expecting

anything uh and the delivery was not in any of our names it was in our new neighbor's name so i'm gonna say somewhere they have our address as his address um which is mildly concerning because if you are trying to find him or picking a good house to rob because there might be valuable items in there uh he's a he's a target which i guess means we're a target now yeah it's not like you guys got nothing in there no no that's the other thing yeah someone's gonna walk in there and be like well shit we're at the wrong house but we hit a good one yeah yeah i mean stuff might be heavy but like we got expensive computer there's all kinds of stuff right so i would just pay to see them walk in and there's

no one i'm sorry to pick on him but no one but baker there and he just has to look at him like take the fucking computers please leave you want me to help you carry him out this one's a little heavy that's scary though man it's and it's like obviously without going into who it is it's really a shame too because it's not it's not tied to anything he does or anything like that it's just people being assholes trying to like come hit somebody who's got some money yeah no i i think it's just like again anybody that's a public figure there's a little bit more risk there and then um public figure with known dollar amounts things like that or estimated like yeah you're gonna you're gonna

figure it out yeah sad but it's how it is one thing that we love it's like a little bit off radar you know yeah we've we've done our best at not being in the spotlight when it wasn't necessary um not for that reason specifically i mean there's like a handful of them but uh that's one thing that you don't think about even like influencers um large influencers or i would imagine at at uh increased risk oh sure yeah yeah not to mention somebody like jake paul logan paul yeah that's why he has like an armory in his house. Yeah, yeah. You literally need it. Yeah, there is no privacy in a lot of ways in today's world. I mean, the people whose addresses you can find, it's crazy.

You know, I don't even know if you can scrub that from the internet. I'm sure you can. I know some people do. But there's like a lot of different loops you got to go through and hoops you got to go through to do that because there's so many different sources there's you know at my job one of my things was i had to know everything about everyone because i was out there trying to get business and things and so i was i got very good using google it was kind of weird but like i could find anything on anybody and i would be amazed at like you just kind of tie this keyword

to that keyword you find this little tidbit here you tie that back to their name and boom i mean you are the internet is just this wild place that has all the information there it's it's there to be found so it's scary but you know you guys have managed to stay out of the spotlight and everything but that's you know that's probably coming to an end here as i don't know if it's like the next six months but it's it's pretty soon so you might want to figure that out yeah yeah working on it i'm starting to get more and more pressure to do things like that and and if not i mean there's like clear benefits to being somewhat known um obviously like we're pretty well known in the communities that we either sell into work in etc but like that's much different than general public uh general public

it's like uh it's got its benefits but it's also has its downsides so yeah and and by the way as a note for people anthony and i sat here and waited an hour to start and you still hear some lawnmowers in the background like a little bit it was far enough that i could start now that should be ending any minute they these guys would not fucking stop they were like trolling me literally like every single house got hit with a lawnmower at once there's like 12 big industrial lawnmowers riding down the street so i was finally like all right let's start but chaos yeah sorry about that anyway but yeah i mean last time you were here it was you were looking at starting to go to market with let's say like some big names and then some some bigger

companies i think you were able to talk about a couple of them but i don't want to say in case i'm misremembering some of that but i gotta got to tell you, man, I'm sitting there watching the Jake Paul Woodley fight, and I got pissed off. I got really pissed at you because fucking Jake Paul comes out with an LED banner on his trunks, and I can't get him in a hologram form. Yeah. Come on now. Yeah, I know. It's been tricky early on, uh, with the, the fights that we originally wanted to do. Um, and we're talking to those guys about, um,

I think there was, there was so much in flux, even just in that space, right? Like, um, when we talked about the Logan Floyd fight, they went back and forth. And on Logan's side, it was a lot of like, I'm sitting, I'm sitting, I'm waiting. This is Floyd's game. He's going to tell me when he's ready to go, when he's ready to go, I have to be ready to go. It might not happen. It might happen. Even if he goes and says publicly, I'm doing this fight, there's a chance he decides not to. That's just how it works, and it's a little bit crazy. And then from working with that team as well on Floyd's side too, that's just how they work. Everything's dictated by them.

They control process. They control everything. So if he's ready to go they go uh when they were ready to go we were not ready to go that quickly and I don't know if you remember but uh both of those were very fast oh yeah yeah yeah and it was like lingering you knew something was hopefully gonna happen um but then 30 to 45 days flip a switch. Okay. This is the date. This is where we're doing the fight. Let's pull everything together. Uh, that's one downside, uh, of being at the size we are today. We can't necessarily flip that switch.

It's a lot. There's a lot of moving pieces in what you're doing. Obviously I'm kidding around with you, but still like selfishly, I do want want to see it because i know you can pull it off it's just you have to you went over some of it last time but the detail you have to have to actually get it right which is how you want to do it you want to make sure people are getting they're not getting some lagged bullshit experience they're getting the full thing the detail is down to the ground literally like okay you know it's easier in boxing than say in in mma but even in boxing like when they come in and they're and they're hugging tight and everything you got to be able to capture that whole thing in real time and make sure that you know it's not like those old madden glitches where like an arm's coming out the side or something like that so it's i would

imagine and i don't know timelines but you need to have obviously a full team of people do it running that full time and you need to probably have that set up including full understandings of having the full understanding of both fight camps but also anyone involved in the production there of what's going to need to happen for this to happen i mean that's got to be a 90 day 120 day full-time process in my head am i wrong um yeah i mean obviously like those timelines are meant to be broken and i tend to be a little bit on the aggressive side there um which is good and bad but um yeah i i think you need well the one thing that we noticed too right with um with limited resources and i'll not like um don't have enough resources it's more like can't get them fast enough right so uh if you want to scale that team so when we look at like

large-scale capture like boxing something like that it's it's a much more different uh environment uh capture the the same core is there but you have to do things a little bit differently than like just throwing an artist a music artist in the middle. Oh, sure. Right. So the team that's working on that, if you pull them away, we've seen great momentum inside music, entertainment, et cetera. So you pull them away to do something that is a little bit theoretical on a fight that's a little bit far out, something like that um you're losing valuable time so the answer to that obviously is add a bunch of hands build a dedicated team just for that that's something that we're working on now but easier said than done uh building the team

to where we got it today uh was difficult um we have a really strong team, um, and now it needs to be, uh, repeatable like rapidly. Well, that, that's another important question too, because money is the lifeblood of creating resources, obviously. And so you guys have managed to build the whole, I mean, you built it soup to nuts and built the product and have it it ready to go keeping your core team so you got you obviously have a lot of consultants but on like the full-time side you have your founding team and then you have a solid team of engineers but it's not like a hundred people right now no so to go to the next level of 100 people which can happen overnight it's going to be when you decide to do a series a which you guys have held off on doing i don't know if it's like happening now or like something moving forward but i know that's not something you can actually

confirm or deny publicly so i'm not going to ask you when but in your head i guess the question is are you thinking about it a lot like it's kind of like you're playing with house money and the minute you flip that switch then that problem the resource problem you talk about, is taken care of. And you can, say, do three projects at once because now you basically have heads. I mean you can, but there's also like the speed and expectation thing too, right? So you go out and you raise $20 million. There's an expectation that you're going to deploy the capital quickly. Yes.

Over a 12 to 18-month period, right? Sometimes that money goes even faster. You're also burning whatever you have coming in. Maybe you're extending runway. It's like you can pull those levers, but ultimately they want to see the money get put to work, right? So the day you take that check, we'll just call it a check, your expectations go through the moon. Sure.

So there's now a ton of external pressure. The smart thing might be to focus on building infrastructure a little bit before you pour gas on the fire. What do you mean by infrastructure? Just to be clear. Well, so we saw this on the sales side, right? Like we're really small on the sales and business development side. Yeah. It's like a couple of people.

You also – We know it intimately, right? But you also don't have – like your pipeline purposely, it's not like other companies. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like you're not selling – you're not selling a selling a phone for example which is still like an investment but like you're selling like a huge investment for an enormous very exclusive client you know what i mean so in some ways i almost think yes you want to you're going to increase that no doubt but like is that really holding you back right now um is the sales

side holding yeah like not having more than two or three heads really handling that well it yeah i mean it holds back how fast you can get deals closed um yeah and obviously the the push is to keep exponential growth um that's what you're looking for. But I think it's more, so what I was talking about on like the infrastructure side is a lot of like sales playbook or things like that that need refining. How do I hire somebody and day one make them effective? Obviously not day one, but theoretically. Right now we all know it intimately so anybody who's selling it has been doing it for a long time um some of that has been translated some of it hasn't i think that needs to be refined a little bit before you just go to flip that switch otherwise what you're going to do is you're going to burn a bunch of dry money so the first 30 to 60 days you're going to ramp that burn up crazy and what's going to happen you might not have the results

yeah um the i think too often the understanding is like spend a dollar make a dollar spend two make four spend you know what i mean like the quicker you spend money the more you're going to make uh faster um true if everything is laid uh laid out and and ready to go so we did a little bit of that and then on the other side to be honest like because the team is pretty small we've held off because we haven't needed to do it um and i want to make sure that we're not pulling focus when it is only a handful of people on sales and we're doing really well. So there's a couple of things to balance there, right? Like you want to grow as fast as you can. You want to pour gas on the fire when it's working.

You also don't want to pull people away for a long diligence process while you're in the middle of like large customer deployments and all kinds of stuff when the team is really small the bigger you get the easier it becomes to to not have that be a huge distraction but um yeah so that's part of why we've waited and we've been super transparent with uh anybody who reaches out um we've talked to a bunch of firms that we've known for a while. Some who have just reached out to us, love the space, love what we're up to, got connected to us through some of our customers, things like that. And the conversation has been pretty blunt and honest. We're doing really well. We don't necessarily need to do it immediately. We would like to do it. We know we're going to. I think we're really close to doing it now because we have a lot of that infrastructure built and things are a little bit more stable, but didn't want to dive into a 90-day or 60, 90-day diligence process and pull a bunch of focus away while our ARR was being driven up pretty good yeah and so when you're

talking about diligence just to be clear on that when you are going in to do like a like a big time raise like series a series b stuff like that obviously these firms and even high-powered individuals family offices whatever it may be they're going to run through every single thing you got going so they can run all their numbers and make projections and it's all it's a money thing but when that's happening i guess your point is that guys like you running the company really like the founding team even like including in some ways baker who's the cto like that's not even part of his job you automatically are getting pulled into that process and that's taken away from everything else you can do. And since you don't have that hundred person team right now, that's actually

a problem. And it's this opportunity cost trade-off. Yeah. Yeah. And I think the, so a diligence process can be like kind of anything, right? Like super early stage, you don't have that much. It might just be like your formation docs and like light projections on what you think you're going to do um or how impactful you think you can be how large the market actually is um you might just be looking for like is there potential for this to be a billion dollars plus um or do a billion dollars plus of revenue or whatever, right? And then as you get older and older or further in your company life cycle, there becomes more.

You have historical financials. You have legal docs. You might have previous financings. You might have all kinds of stuff, right? So board structures, voting structures, advisory share types, like there's this whole list of things that they want to dig through. And the more complex it gets,

the longer it takes, the more questions come up. I mean, in general, everything's like pretty clean. You can put everything into a data room, keep it organized. There's ways to like reduce how much of a headache it is, but there's always going to be some level of like back and forth that you want there to be. Otherwise, like they're probably not doing heavy diligence, right?

Everybody's a little bit different. I've gone through super light processes and uh really heavy processes um but the common denominator is it becomes a distraction if it takes too long my thing from the beginning has been uh when i look at financing it's like i want to get in get out i know it's something that we need to do to accelerate to ramp whatever um but i don't want to be in, get out. I know it's something that we need to do to accelerate, to ramp, whatever. But I don't want to be distracted by it 24-7 we have a business around. Do you think that a lot of these partners – partners. Let's just say that – let's keep it general just to make it easy.

Like the VCs reaching out. Do you think that with your company, there's also a lot more – I don't want to use this word, but I'm going to use it, a lot more patience and like, hey, yeah, we're willing to wait on it. Wait when you want to do it more on your terms strictly because they know that you have the tech within the hologram space that no one does or do are a lot of them still thinking fuck it we'll just go we'll fund somebody else and they'll be able to they'll be able to replicate the technology soon enough so i i haven't seen much of that obviously there are other companies that are raising money in the space um yeah uh but no i i think for the most part um at least with us, it's a lot of relationships. So I've known partners at firms for a couple of years before getting to this point. So there's a level of comfortability there. And even for folks that are new uh it's coming

through some sort of relationship so i i don't think anybody's like jumping to go finance somebody else it's like we're watching we're tracking uh some people just want to stay in front of you uh which i appreciate um as long as it's not over boy um but yeah no i i think everybody's been super understanding and and at the end of the day what's the most important thing it's customers uh whether that's like the revenue coming from it how happy they are um making sure that you're not dropping the ball on anything that they need uh that's the the lifeblo there. I think it's also a battle of how difficult the initial sale is for you. And that's why I'm at least, I understand, I'll say why you led with in the start of this conversation, the point of figuring out the balance of adding more bodies

to sales. And I still wanted to ask about the resources just because of the low number of clients. But I had a feeling I knew where you were going to go with that. And you did because when you say like hologram and for people that are listening right now and aren't familiar with SOAR, Anthony has been on this podcast. He was number 30. And then the other two co-founders, Riley, who's the CSO and Baker, who's the CTO, were on here for number 50, and I believe it was 58 apiece. Yeah. So there's been some talk on that. The other two we talked less about the company, but you guys obviously create live-streamed holograms,

which when you say that out loud for the first time, it's simple in the sense that holograms haven't really been a thing, but we've concepted in sci-fi for a long time the idea that you can make someone 3D and have them talk right there. Easy enough. Once you start to then point out to how you are going to get society to understand this right away, like the average person, the average consumer, and bring that into people's lives and just overnight make it a thing that they need, like the iPhone did and stuff like that getting to that point is very very difficult because all these other companies you know who you're talking with and even guys who become clients it's like okay we get it but are we going to understand how to

get it to people because i talked about this with riley i know, at least extensively. I don't know how much you and I talked about it, but right now, because you guys are the software side, you're creating the roadmap for it. We don't have a hardware company yet, or one that's at least prominent, that has created the TV for what you're going to do, whereby I can buy something right now, and them using your software i can put it in in the middle of my table and have it right here so as of this moment the way that the common way

that people would be interacting with your tech is i would whip out my phone and i would have to look at it through my phone and it would be like it's right here but i have to hold up this this physical object so without getting into when we're going to get there on the hardware we can talk about that later but getting people like the consumer to understand the value of that is difficult and so you don't you're not just selling it's like anything else to be honest but you're not just selling i don't know spotify or someone crazy like that some big company you're not just selling them on like hey look what we can do for you we're you're selling them on here's why and how we can get it to your people and make it so that the person can log into spotify like it's another day and it's it's something simple that they just inherently understand yep yeah so so we were

actually just talking about this the other day but there but there's kind of two pieces to any sale for us at least, right? Well, so actually I'll backtrack a little bit. There's kind of like two big buckets, two overarching buckets that we look at. One of them is people who are already using similar tech or already in the medium, but solutions are super expensive hard to use whatever right and it's not live correct yeah nobody is uh real time um so that bucket is really straightforward it's like you're spending a million dollars plus on just hardware 300K plus on software per year. This is 15 to 25K in hardware on the high end. 25K is like overkill.

And then 10K a month or 100K on the year for software for an enterprise company. And it scales down for smaller creators, right? But if I'm spending $1 million on hardware, going to $15K is killer. Yeah. It's a no-brainer. Same thing on software. If I'm spending $300K plus per year,

going to $100K is big, no-brainer. So that bucket's easy. The next bucket is people who aren't using it. And then it's a two-part sell, right? The first part is this is why you should be looking at the space. If you know nothing about it, this is what the tech is. It's volumetric video. It's holograms.

This is why it's impactful. We see the world moving to spatial. We think glasses will be the main compute device in the next couple of years, right? Like these are the core reasons or the things that provide this bigger picture for us. This is the key insight that we have that we want to share now that you know a we validated that we're an expert in the space this is what we're seeing this is why you should be taking a look at it the next part is okay we've established what the medium is why it's so impactful why you should be using this kind of tech now this is why there's really nobody else that you should be using this kind of tech. Now, this is why there's really nobody else that you should be looking at.

So two parts there. The first part, I absolutely love because that's like sharing vision, sharing the insight that I have, things that I'm seeing happen in the world and our team is seeing happen in the world, where we think things are going the second part uh again once you've gotten down to that point and somebody understands what

the tech is how it's so impactful to them um then it becomes fairly straightforward it's like one-to-one comparison uh type of conversation how much closer do you think we are to adoption though now like i mean the button getting hit and suddenly it's just everywhere as opposed to last time you were in here at the beginning of the year uh on the hardware side wait what do you mean hardware side adoption of what adoption of the medium yeah the adoption of the actual, of the idea itself. Well, so, I mean, we're much further along. Adoption of the medium is coming along so that the... And by medium, do you mean, are you referring to the hardware or are you referring to holograms themselves?

The type of media. So holograms. As a whole, yeah, yeah. Volumetric video, hologram, however it's being viewed, manipulable content. Yes. Right. I think there's been a significant amount of movement in that space. A lot more people playing with the tech, a lot more people capturing things.

We're starting to learn what we can do with it, where our limitations are, especially on content creation side. Well, and I don't want to turn the conversation completely into something else. I just want to wrap it into this because I feel like it's probably a good time to bring it up. But when you were here last, that was right when this whole NFT craze actually entered the mainstream. And so we talked about it when Riley was in here, but we've been doing some work on that which has been pretty cool and i think we're going to be able to bring a couple of those things public soon which is exciting but that whole thing was this mad rush that had a whole bunch of other aspects to it like it's it it started with just pure 2d art and it's still there in a lot of ways but you've seen all these other bit pieces arise out

of it you see something like these horse stables and stuff where you can buy you know yeah a horse in the metaverse which is why i'm bringing this up and people are buying real estate in the metaverse and they're being tagged as nfts in a lot of cases but outside of just the buzzword of nfts and what that all means and we could talk about that too but i'm more concerned with that the the capturing of that term in everyone's fascination which is metaverse because when we first talked even before you came in here you were talking about something along the lines of we're building we're building the metaverse right and you weren't looking at it from like oh it's just nfts or something like that you were looking at it like

straight out of sci-fi movie shit like the matrix almost we're building a new world that people will interact with each other in and it's not this it's not the physical world and then a few weeks ago and this is obviously fast forward way farther from our last conversation but a few weeks ago, and this is obviously fast forward way farther from our last conversation, but a few weeks ago you even saw the emoji metaverse that I think Zuckerberg demonstrated for Gayle King and CBS where he was sitting in a room with her as an emoji. She was sitting in the room as an emoji and they were having a conversation and it was this other world. And so people are starting to look at this now and it's still very confusing because a bunch of people still aren't familiar with the term, number one. Number two, people who are, they don't know what the fuck it is. And number three, people who know what it is are still like, but what's the difference? Like if I'm buying a horse as an NFT, is that a different world from like this world

that we're going to create where our content is all there and we're actually going to school and doing things in it and we're not leaving our homes so I'm kind of throwing it all spaghetti at the wall right now on purpose but for you today talking about your metaverse as you see it a how would you define it for people and B what is your exact role in it and does it have anything to do with nfts and stuff like that yeah so i i think the biggest thing for me is like it it acts as a digital layer a carbon copy but a digital layer on top of the physical world then that digital layer can be altered um you can make it interact between worlds so to speak right so i i i say a lot like the convergence of digital and physical.

That's what I mean. So like there is a 3D map of the world of its own. Um, if I am, uh, using like the, the most bare bones example, um, quite literally scanning and capturing the world in 3d so that there is now a 3d layer of everything. Um, it's, uh, it kind of evolves from there right so it's crazy yeah yeah I guess talking about the what role do we play in that

a the thing that's so exciting to me is our core is a pipeline for moving volumetric or 3D data in real time. So what do you need to connect those layers, connect those worlds?

You need a really good pipe. So that is super exciting to me and seeing how we can evolve our compression distribution pipeline. Simplest form, we're capturing people right now, right? People, objects, things like that. Wait, can I clarify one thing to make sure I'm understanding? Yeah, yeah. Because now, and I don't know if I said this in that long rambling trying to land the plane to get to this question, but the difference with the metaverse that we see right now in my mind, and I'll incorporate like the NFTs aspect of it, like people buying homes and buying horses and shit, is that these are actual objects that exist only in that space. Right? You're not you're not live streaming a horse from a stable and then it's it's right there it's this is a separate

thing that was created yeah you see what i'm saying yeah yeah what you're talking about is you're going to be able to actually take this world to use your words the carbon copy of it and you're going to be able to live stream it so that even if there's a different reality there – shit, I need some weed right now. But there's a different reality right there. You are taking things that are real that are actually existing in the real world and at least putting that – I'm fucking up and I don't want to say this. But putting it in that world and then saying it can change there. But this is now there's two of them yeah so so basically like once i have a 3d uh map of the world i can

almost do anything with it right so i i have this room uh a 3d map of this room um i am wearing a pair of augmented reality glasses it It looks like this room because I'm actually looking at this room. But I know I'm spatially aware now, right? I can have a piece of digital content that's not in my physical world now interact with my physical world because I know my physical world in digital. So that's where it really starts to like collide and you can get as creative as you want with what that looks like from like a user experience perspective,

everything down to like, how are you actually interacting with it like are you using your hands are you using like a remote whatever right um all the way to like what is the content um like the place a football game or a basketball game on your coffee table kind of thing is like an example of what one piece of content would be but you want spatial awareness is the best here's the second layer to it now and this isn't tomorrow but 20 years from now that basketball game or that football game are they playing it in the metaverse too meaning they're doing it in some facet in real life like i'm not saying it's going to be exactly

like the matrix where they're lying in the box and they can just concept it in their head because then anyone could be a professional athlete in that way which is a whole separate thing but i'm saying like are they going to be could you be playing against each other and not in the same building and it's the same which is creepy but um so now we're really getting we're getting deep out there yeah um i mean you could i guess theoretically i think there's a little bit deeper than like technology uh that's that seems like a lot of like hard science or deep tech haptics at a minimum you know a lot if you think well i've always said like one of the coolest things like an evolution of facetime where you

could use uh volumetric or holograms would be awesome but one of the biggest things that you would lose is like personal touch right so um you you've already lost that in like 2D. But- Wait, you would lose personal touch with that? Yeah, yeah. Well, that versus physically being with somebody, right? Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but I'm saying like from FaceTime, based on your example,

that's already a loss of physical right there. So now you're making it 3D. That feels at least better than just being on the 2D phone. Yeah, it feels better. But like, let's get it 90% of the way. Sure. You know, right? So what could you do?

One of the coolest things would be, like, a shirt with some sort of haptics in them so that I could give you a hug. Yeah. Like, the hologram could give you a hug and you would feel the feedback from the hug. That'd be awesome. And I would love to test that. so if anybody has a haptic shirt

please let me know well outside of the metaverse then we're just gonna go like the con the conversations with you are naturally complicated and my job is to also tone it down yes simple simplify it for everyone but like we're gonna go all around it this like things come up because I just have questions on everything. And I'd imagine people listening at home are constantly thinking of things when you're saying them like, wait, but does that mean this, then that? So whatever. We'll roll with it. But one of the things that we didn't get to talk about a ton that I wanted to because we got off into something else. But with Riley, he had brought up haptics which blew my mind because i

hadn't even thought about that like in the conversation here and haptics to be clear the ability to also as you were just pointing out like feel these things happen you know there's like a way that you can incorporate technology so that you can shake hands with a hologram and it feels like you're shaking a real hand but beyond the metaverse the thing we're going to create and maybe it's not maybe it's all a part of the same thing and i'm really just having trouble concepting it but when you're talking about recreating dead people it's a that is a deep deep complicated morally complicated yeah difficult thing to think about and i haven't talked about this with you in a while but i remember we had a phone conversation about it when we were talking

about some dead celebrities maybe like five six months ago and it was it almost like not to overplay it and this is literally just talking about celebrities that i happen to care about but it almost like it brings a tear your eye a little bit because you're like holy shit but it's not like this pure happy tear it's like what are the implications there so without talking about someone i know there's one that you've been going back and forth with to do this i won't use that example but i'll use an example that i know that also came up last time in another context but like tupac yep you know because he's been dead now for 25 years allegedly but you know like like bringing him back you would essentially

you have the tech even right now to not only recreate him but recreate a reality of him so if you added in haptics now you're feeling like if you go to hug tupac you're hugging tupac but also you're you're bringing something back to life so then to bring it even more personal and take it away from just like a celebrity that people cared about you know that whole concept of parents lose their kid to cancer or something and a father can have a 3d full representation created of he and his son when he was six years old having a catch right in front of him in life size down to the fucking freckle on him i mean that's a beautiful memory to be able to have and like almost touch and feel but it creates a like a false reality too and as a human being in

touch with our humanity and the fact that there's a life and there's a death and you know that's that's just what it is and you cross over and that's over it it's almost dangerously with that line yeah it is so where i that line, I think there's like two ways to look at it. Capturing memories that actually happen in a new way. We've been capturing memories for years, right? We've captured black and white video, black and white picture. What makes it feel a little bit more scary is it it's immersive it's a little bit more real right i don't think that goes beyond the line that doesn't go beyond my line i guess like i would love to have um i'm sure somebody will say this is creepy but like i would love to have a set of cameras in my living room and watch my kid grow up again, right? I'd love to sit with him when he's

10, he or she is 10, and place a memory on the coffee table and watch that memory with them. I think that would be killer. It's the same kind of thing as watching a home video of their first steps but you get to relive the entire environment everything that was happening the dog walking around on the other side of the room who turned his head and said oh is that baby moving right the dog talk yeah yeah the awkward little head turn right Like you now have the entire environment and it'd be awesome to just like place that on the coffee table and rewatch it. That naturally goes towards death.

You look at like happy moments and you look at sad moments for the things that we want to keep memories of. I think where it gets dangerous and where my line is is when you're taking or recreating and then using things like ai to make it feel like i can still interact with this person imagine this imagine that's for a second so imagine that your wife died and she died young. You're a 45-year-old guy and God forbid she died of cancer.

And your technology was then able to recreate a memory of her that also allows it to interact with the husband such that he's hugging her before he goes to bed at night. You see some of these people who lose someone tragically at a young age and they can't get rid of their clothes and they hug their clothes and stuff like that. And eventually it becomes a problem and their friends and their family have to like help them move on because time moves and you have to keep going. Now, inject the possibility that you're going to be putting a recreation of that human who's not sentient they're not they're not actually there they can't understand what you're saying at least i don't know if we're gonna get there fuck man but they can't understand any of that but they're there still like their physical being as a as an inflatable doll in a way that can absolutely fuck with someone's head and that kind of thing is

very scary to me we even see it with fake humans like i just said the inflatable thing but like you see it with people fucking around with sex dolls and stuff you see it like as we get farther and farther away from each other on it from a humanity standpoint and we become more and more digitized we lose the even if we want it more than anything in the world we lose the drive to get actual impact from another person for real and then we start to lose the line between what's real and what's not yeah yeah that's that's when it starts to become scary i i think that's that's like where my line is right i want to relive memories i think that would be fantastic i want to enable other people to relive memories in a new way um but when it starts to get to let's give a uh capture even if we had a capture of somebody right like there is a capture of me so if i were to pass away and somebody were to take my capture uh and

make me live on so to speak in a way that people could still interact with me. I think that's, we're starting to hit some lines. What's the purpose of it? I think there are good things that could come from that, right? Like maybe it is something that helps you cope enough to say for a week or so, whatever some predetermined period of time yeah or undetermined period yeah like okay i know this isn't him but this was this was cool but it could also go very poorly very quickly and that but that's also like pulling a rug too because let's say it was you said a predetermined time so like yeah so seven days you get it and the central system your company automatically pulls it so there's no

slippery slope it's like having a second death again yeah because now it's like oh my god now they're really gone yeah you know it's like a countdown clock you know exactly when it's coming that's another and maybe you can get over i'm sure you can get over that eventually but it's like it's almost cruel you know there is something about when it's over, it's over. And it sucks. And with death, we grieve it. But it's over. It's done.

Life goes on. When you start to then extend that line and extend the process and you create a systemized process, that's the kind of shit that scares the hell out of me man i mean you guys because the other thing is you guys have this tech and you have the patents around it and the market is your oyster you know you as long as you don't wait for 20 years here maybe a little less than that but you know what i mean like you're gonna bring this to market eventually

and that day is not too far iterations of this are going to be created by other people too like once you and someone's going to create this whether it's you or someone else someone's going to create this so you can't like that line you talk about of like i'm not comfortable going past here someone's gonna do it yeah yeah no i'm saying that's that's where like i don't want to go past i'm sure here's the other thing too like you put it out it's gonna get there it doesn't it doesn't matter it's it's just like anything right like people will do malicious things with tech that uh had a good intent to start um i don't necessarily want to be the one to encourage that because i think a lot of bad things can happen um i'll also say i think that's much better than some things uh that we could be

using uh ai for at least what do you mean um i mean there's like a lot of bad that you can do oh yeah yeah yeah so like in the scheme of things, if we're picking and choosing, okay, might not be great. But I'd rather somebody do that than something else. Oh, you're saying – I'll put an exact example on it to make sure I understand. You're saying you'd rather have the problem of recreating a dead person with haptic hologram technology than recreating a person as an ai where it's like can you even unplug them you know what i mean yeah yeah yeah precisely or or give an ai autonomy over something that is um like critical mission critical that's actually a really fair point to make it's scary it is it's choosing an evil versus an evil but i will agree with you a thousand percent you know my interest

in ai like yeah that's worse well if i'm if i'm choosing my death you know like um yeah it's heavy man it's just it's i don't know how you deal with this every day uh like what what could be yeah it's it's hard um yeah i mean yeah yeah it's tough um even look at the social media companies yeah look at look at well for now social media in quotes but like just look at i always use this example but look at twitter yeah the concept and i believe the concept of that was they were trying to create a group text that you could share with the world wasn't supposed to be more than that they didn't know that like that environment was going

to create i mean maybe they could have guessed some of this but you can't hindsight's 2020. they didn't know that environment was going to create this world where people could say whatever they wanted to anyone else including like evil yeah you know that drives us more and more apart and also creates think like it literally creates thought and how people view the world whether you know it can start with politics but it can go all the way down to what's real and what's not and and how other what other people are like versus what they're not like twitter didn't know that when they were creating it now that we have the modern examples of companies like twitter companies like apple with the iphone companies like google with search and what that then allows them to learn about a human being

now that we at least have those guys like you who are creating new things even if you can't chart all of exactly what could go wrong, I don't have that expectation, you at least can chart it like a little bit. You can at least chart the possibilities and realize that like, oh, we're not going to be any different than that. It's going to be something different, but it's going to be the same idea.

Like this is going to turn into something that we don't know or at the very least can't control. Yeah. Well, so here's another question. Right now with what we'll call building the metaverse, right? Mm-hmm. Who will control the metaverse? Who controls the most components?

I guess you could look at it. Because the company that everybody is quite frightened with in the space right now, Facebook, is working on quite a few pieces of the metaverse. So they own the end user device, the pair of glasses, if they did. The social, I mean, that's like... What do you mean the social? A no-brainer. Facebook as it is today, evolving to be 3D. It's like spaces.

It could be like your main method of communication it could be it could be anything all right can we bookmark this for one second to take a sidebar on that exact thing yep all right so and if we're coming back you were talking about how facebook is building the metaverse and the reasons why so i don't want to lose that but on the facebook thing because i know you're a huge ui ux guy i love that shit like you're very into that don't say love ui ux and facebook in the same sentence exactly yeah so we all know that zuckerberg along with the winklevoss twins sorry sorry, Mark. They created the blue F and they created what we know. And obviously Zuckerberg took it through the finish line and all that and was responsible for creating what started as a very innovative, beautiful platform. He then turned it into a trash dump.

I mean I can't even – I don't even go on Facebook. I don't even post there anymore. It's a waste of my time. Like it's a trash dump yep instagram which he did buy early on instagram allowed sistrom and krieger who started it to stay there and run it and i'm sure there was a lot of infighting behind the scenes but those guys ran the company until august or september 2018 And while I'm sure there were some things that came onto the app that they maybe weren't crazy about, they allowed that vision to build. And you had a beautiful, what I would describe at one point as a perfect app. It was simple. It was white.

You knew that you were getting either a picture or a video inside of 60 seconds in your feed. It was going to take up anywhere from 1080 to 1350 of your feed out of the 1920 on the screen. It required you to double tap to get a heart for a like, which is pretty self-explanatory. And there's a place that said comment. And even Even for a while there wasn't even the hamburger menu on your profile of the three lines That you see on a lot of different websites and stuff like that They didn't even have that everything was right in front of you and you could scroll through the feed and know exactly What you were getting the stories when they integrated that which was a little controversial I mean, I hate Instagram stories what what they become, but the idea was great

because it was simple. It was at the top. You saw someone's profile picture, it lit up or it didn't, and you clicked it or you don't, right? Everything was right in front of you. Now you go through that feed. I mean, probably one of the funnier tidbits was when you were trying to post from our last podcast onto Instagram. And like you go on Instagram. Like you're not using it. But you couldn't. You running a hologram company. Couldn't even fit.

And I don't blame you. Couldn't even figure out how to post an IGTV without help. Which should tell you something. Now you go through it. I don't know how much you've been paying attention to your feed recently. I can't even go through it. I spend less than. I barely am on that app at this point but instagram oh my god dude like my test is when i go like this

with my finger and take a swipe and let it let the screen move like relatively slowly how quickly does my eye capture exactly what's right in front of me now i don't even know what's there man i mean there's text everywhere there's bold there's's sponsored this. The feed is not in order. They're building a tremendous infrastructure back there as a VR company. And so what I think Mark is doing, because also Instagram wasn't his, and he always took that personally, which I guess I understand. But I think he's just milking whatever money he can squeeze out of Instagram to keep shareholders happy right now, which is his job. On the idea that like, oh, this we're we're phasing this out anyway and whether it's going to be through instagram or a new platform that facebook calls facebook x or something like that you're going to have this vr social media ecosystem which then goes right back to what we were talking about here that you brought up which is how facebook is quote unquote building the

metaverse so my question within that is am i wrong wrong about what my theory right there no i i i don't think so i mean i i still see instagram being a strong uh platform for a while um there's no competition for it yeah yeah and And to be fair, Instagram is much less cumbersome than Facebook. Facebook, like the Facebook app is ungodly. I get it's difficult when you start to jam-pack things into an app like that. I mean, it's been a very long time. They're constantly shipping things. Some of them work.

Some of them don't. There's a lot of, like, deep functionality. Messages, right? Like, Messenger had to be broken out. It's also easier to break it out um there are there was a point i don't know if there still is because again don't use it that much are there still a series of apps so you have like the main facebook app right then you have messenger are there yes are there a bunch of other ones those are the two i know of but i'm also definitely

i'm not paying attention what facebook's doing i mean i have it up behind you just so that like while we're talking about this live like the second you come to the page look at the and people can't see this right now but a lot of you have used facebook maybe you're not on it as much now but if if you go to your facebook page right now personally and look at the same thing we're looking at Look at the complexity of just the shape and the different The different size text and the fact that you have two sides you still fucking banner ads over there You have your messenger built in there. It is confusing It you don't even know like you know, it's on your mind Julian. What does that even you know what I'm you know? I mean like it's just the everything is it's clunky what's what's the tv icon which one this

now to the left that yeah i have no idea i guess that means that these are video only so it's and what is this even so like here's one it's putting random shit in there it says follow this so i obviously don't follow this so i guess this is based on data of some you know what i watched a video on i don't think on facebook i think it was on on instagram in my feed the other night of like someone shearing a sheep so here's a sheep shearing video so i guess that's what it's from but like that's the point they're overdoing this targeting so much that, I mean, it's been a long time that it's been this way, but the concept of the app has been lost. Well, so the targeting doesn't bug me nearly as much as like just how much stuff is jammed into this. Yeah.

Go to your settings or the dropdown. What would be the hamburger on the app? Is that it? i don't like did i even just even know but look at all that yeah that's unbelievable now look at hold on let's go to instagram for a second okay and so people do the same thing on your instagram is it you're gonna be looking at the same thing by the way i don't think i've done this in like i don't think i've used either of these on web anything in like five years at least yeah it's fair it's it's kind of it's roughly I rarely use them on my phone well Instagram I do but

roughly the same thing like it's getting across the same ideas but we go to Instagram it's actually it actually usually on for Instagram I won't say this about Facebook, looks a little better on my computer. I think because you're forced to scroll a little slower. But still, what starts happening is, first of all, I see posts from people that I've never interacted with. I still get posts from people I interact with, but I definitely miss some. I definitely miss a lot now because I'm using it less. But it starts to get to, I'm guessing it's less on the computer than on phone. But you see like all these little things like original audio, then there's a meme that's on the account.

They build a meme into it, but then there's more going on down here too, like with the text. There's what happens on the phone is you'll get these sponsors and it's very small and it's not bold. Whereas the other things are bold and you, you start to lose like where your feet is versus like what they're just throwing at you. You know what I mean? It's not self-explanatory. Whereas when I started on Instagram, I was on Instagram for a while before I was like, personally, I was doing marketing for people in here and I remember just scrolling the feed and realizing like how instantaneously I could spot like oh that's a post from so-and-so and like that chances are that was in the last three hours based on where I am in my scroll and now that's gone yeah it's it's it's messy I hate the the ham. If you need a hamburger icon with that many options,

you got to start taking a look at stuff. That's deep. Easier said than done for Facebook. I'm sure that's not an easy task. And I kind of wish I knew somebody in UIx at facebook now because i have loads of questions but um gonna go chew them out yeah yeah it's messy you know what's funny one of the best um one of the best like ui ux interactions that i've ever found um this is really weird but teledoc there's like a teledoc oh yeah yep yeah yeah so if you go onto the teledoc app that's like the when you that's the remote doctor appointment yes so

coolest cool one of the coolest designs uh that i've seen the interactions are fantastic and then in the bottom right corner um um once you like go through fill out your information the animations are kind of cool whatever when you get to like an actual appointment there's a little circle in the bottom right corner that you can move around so i think it spawns in the bottom right when you tap it so it's your face it's just showing you a little preview of like basically facetime when you tap the little circle these like options roll around the outside of it i absolutely love the interaction very strange uh but if anybody has ever seen it it's like i don't know it's it's it's addictive i gotta check that i love that

so it's fantastic remind me to check that out afterwards but i gotta think that if you're on facebook's ui ux team and you're not just somebody mailing it in there there's no way you don't hate what this is there's no way you don't hate it like you have to know what they're doing and yeah and i'm sure they all talk about it with each other like i can't believe we're fucking doing this i i actually don't i don't hate instagram's ui it is still like really deep but at a certain point i understand it's like what the hell do we do here i think i'm comparing it in fairness yeah it was perfect and so now it's got so much clutter that i hate it yeah it's not it's going in the facebook direction i think he is ruining it but it's not i will even admit it's certainly not there like it's not at facebook's

level well so ask like what's the fundamental reason behind some of the changes that you hate like i i hate like button placements and like unnatural interactions and things like that uh when i'm looking at like facebook instagram ui ux more so than i hate like how free-flowing the sponsored content feels right like it's literally right in the middle you might not even be able to identify it right away exactly um then it pisses you off why why is that the case why was that change made the value of 2d advertising uh rapidly diminishing what's like one of the underlying reasons why people are moving too immersive because we're milking the hell out of 2d let's move to 3d

i mean it's like a it is a natural progression but like if you're looking from a dollar perspective an advertiser is going to get more out of advertising in 3d right now it's going to be more targeted you're going to get you might get less eyeballs but they're going to be like much higher quality eyeballs um and it'll feel like you're interacting with something instead of like just a nuisance in the middle of a feed or in the beginning of a video or well that's where they still have a disadvantage with tiktok and this is where tiktok hasn't beat because of the difference in the content on tick tock it's simple you scroll your finger you're at the next full screen video it's one by one boom and it's

the ultimate boop boop just like that yep whereas on instagram it still takes up a certain portion of the screen so you have to aim it that stuff and there's more they have to mention what it is whereas in tick tock everything is all built into that bottom portion that tells you immediately if you look at it what the video is so with sponsored content on tick tock number one it's a video and there's not not that they don't have that on instagram they do but they have a lot of pictures too which is annoying because then you're trying to like take in what it is but number two it'll say you can immediately tell it's sponsored content on tick tock and number three it's the easiest way to get off boop just like that one scroll whereas on instagram you're like wait where'd my feed start again wait where's did we get past where the real content is and now it's

all sponsored i gotta go down here like this is five seconds of time but it's five seconds of decision points in someone's head yep that you add into their already decision point heavy day and so like from a user experience perspective it that adds up and pissing you off yeah whereas you then remember oh when i was on tiktok i got pissed off less you don't say that to yourself but you realize like man why do i stay on tiktok so long because it's easy yeah it's easy yeah they nailed that interaction and i get a lot of people hate it because it's like super addictive yeah um and like i guess there could be some like moral questions i don't know but um i absolutely love it from like a design perspective i think it's it's killer

um i can also find myself losing 20 minutes on tech oh yeah yeah yeah and at night yeah yeah see i have to study content on there because it's a part of what i do and so i do but i'm much more i do it at specific times i will do it like late at night when i know less work is happening because i'm prepared like i'm kind of doing work when i'm doing it because i'm constantly saving things and seeing what works and studying some stuff so it's not totally innocuous i don't know if innocuous is the word but it's it's not totally useless but still you kill 40 minutes where you thought you killed 10 yeah and it's more than on other platforms because there's just way more to choose from and they they throw you the content that you're most likely to interact with and it's it's live it's it's a video there's there's like a there's an element of personality to it that you

can't get on other platforms but yeah i mean there's there's the question there they've they've got from that from day one like how addictive they make it and everything and that's the nature of it it's all about capturing people's attention, and they do. Well, so TikTok for me is like, I'll go on there every once in a while and check out some of the funny memes and stuff. And Trendify. Yeah, yeah, correct. And Johnny Drinks.

And Joe Rogan and Johnny Drinks, yep. Rogan's not on there, though. You can find little clips, and now that I've looked at them a bunch it's the only thing i'll see um yeah so i'll get a bunch of like cool podcast clips i'll get like funny memes of dogs and things and then uh uh same same thing with reddit although reddit has become like um i now have found myself in small communities on reddit which is dangerous but cool um i didn't know there were that big like um tech uh well obviously

there's huge tech community on reddit but like specifically our space it's pretty deep so um that's super cool uh i can a just sift through and learn what people are like damn i really wish i could do this um and it just like helps provide insight or i'll ask like crazy stupid questions like um what happens if i put my hat in the dishwasher you know like yeah just weird stuff um reddit's an unbelievable tool man oh man it's it's a great tool but there's like weird sides of reddit oh yeah you can go down real real fast because it's all anonymous yeah yeah yeah i absolutely love it though like personalities come out oh yeah that's it's crazy it's it is the ultimate like it's it's the upside and downside to the greatest extent in both

examples yep of the internet and the funny thing about reddit that's ironic here is like reddit's ui is purposely like a 1990s web tool it's purposely horrific like the entire everything about is bad except maybe the upvote and downvote I think that looks okay but like it's clunkily put together in every way but it's like an irony it's purposely like that so I kind of appreciate it and it's also all anonymous it's not like you don't really look at a lot of people's Reddit profile unless you're in a direct conversation with them and you're like who is this person which you then can't figure out so it's like okay but if you want to get random shit answered on the internet that's where you go yeah or if a dude find things right like there's so somebody told me about it a couple of years ago, r slash hardware swap. It's literally, it's just people trading, buying, selling computer hardware.

And like during COVID, it was damn near impossible to get your hands on certain pieces of hardware. GPUs are still hard to get. I mean, they're becoming a little bit more available, but scal jack the price is up by 5x 3x depends but like a thousand dollar gpu that you can't buy for under 2k like that sucks at scale or even just like individually right like if i'm trying to build a computer and i just want to build like a like a gaming PC. Like that sucks. If I wasn't planning on spending six grand, I was only planning on spending two, right? So anyway, that community was awesome.

They were like putting an extra level of verification. They would try to track MSRP and only allow you to upcharge like 10% or something for keeps you honest yeah yeah and and the community was like just killer so I I ended up buying a whole bunch of stuff through hardware swap the final 10 of this studio of the decisions to buy everything in here and also set it up the way I did read it it was yeah it was 90 research and iterating and on all like going psycho mode and the last 10 like even down to as an example figuring out learning the eq process and the compression process on the audio and things like that once i had learned it i then went to reddit with the most ridiculous like down to the final detail questions like

i would try to come up with something like no one's going to be able to answer this and someone does yep and then they nail it yeah and then like if you're not sure you can go get it on another forum and if the answers line up you're like oh this is probably pretty good and then it was it's an amazing amazing tool but i do want to make sure i i get you back to the facebook metaverse the original thing that we started this on i just you know we have to talk you out of it is always a rabbit hole absolutely absolutely and and like talking about it on all these platforms and what they've done good and bad like we didn't get to twitter but that's another story but twitter's actually a decent example of pulling back some things and going

back to what made them great. So that was a good one. But back to Facebook building the metaverse because that's scary for a lot of people to hear. You were saying before I got you off topic that they are taking social – the idea is they want to take social into the 3D world. And so they want to – maybe they'll use actual facebook.com and instagram the apps whatever to do that maybe they won't but right now they're building the infrastructure behind the scenes and yet even as we say that they don't have your ability no no so well nobody does i know um it's wild yeah yeah very cool so it's well it's something

that becomes like a key piece for someone to do right so whether it's uh snap facebook there's um one of our advisors called it the xr arms race I think it makes a lot of sense. There's like a series of things that need to happen for that vision, the greater vision of the metaverse to become possible or usable at scale, things like that. You need the world to be captured in 3d you need uh which the ar cloud um neantic uh has acquired a couple of companies that were building the ar cloud i have a few friends that uh one of them sold his company in the antic um the ar cloud is what you're that's the 3d map of the world yeah yeah like building a map of the world uh in 3d okay so that's like people call uh if if people refer to like the ar cloud that's kind of what they're

referring to um got it yeah uh so that's one piece right then you need um how do we rapidly create 3D content? Creating 3D content is like a mundane process, right? You have to 3D model something, create texture, apply texture, whatever, right? And if you want it to move, you have to animate it, rig it, animate it. It's a process. But you guys do that in real time so we

don't do any of that we're actually capturing it right so so that's the difference if you start with something that's computer generated you have to generate all of it oh okay okay all right i didn't understand that's so you were talking about actually creating it rather than taking something that's real which is what you do yeah so well so the higher level is in this metaverse what do we need we need 3D content we want that 3D content to be lifelike or realistic so we have two options we can either create it we can computer generate it and we're getting pretty lifelike with things right um but mundane process expensive time consuming etc etc if we could capture it capture the world capture objects capture people uh

whether it's real time or not we need to do it rapidly so even if i'm I just need like references uh I need to to do a lot of them if I what do you mean references uh a table I need a table right I'm either going to model this table it's going to either be entirely computer generated or I can capture it which is you do the latter yeah correct you don't do any of the former correct and for for people it's the same kind of thing but to make a person look lifelike computer generated is extremely difficult yeah think about the process the uncanny valley think about like pixar yeah and what they have to do and that's not a real person and they purposely make it not look real yes because you get into the uncanny valley yeah wait the uncanny valley uncanny valley

i think so i believe we talked about this last time but the uncanny valley is once together the uncanny valley is basically like uh if it looks too lifelike but not exact you're going to say oh that's off that's fake so you want to avoid that but you also want to avoid um there's there's like a a couple of things there right so you don't want to try and make it too close but have it miss um so a lot of what a lot of people do is just like completely uh make it unrealistic right because then you know i'm i pulled up this example while you're talking oh what are you are you familiar with her little michaela michaela yeah yeah so i've i've talked about her a few times on this podcast yeah this is uncanny Valley this is uncanny Valley because you can tell

there's this what the she's got braces now too all right so hold on a second I have not seen this this is the first time I'm looking at this this is a post from six days ago what the so I'm gonna put this in the bottom corner of the screen for people who are listening right now if you want to go onto youtube and check it out and by the way like the video while you're there thank you anyway so this is six days ago the caption is ben was my first everything and our relationship felt so real how is he in my program memories then what the and there's a real human man with his arms wrapped around her in a prom pose and she actually looks a little bit creepily real right there bro what the yeah it's all up that is textbook

but this is less like this picture is less of a good uncanny valley example where out oh hold on i'm gonna go that other one too here's another one you can kind of tell that she's a little bit pixar now there's so many goddamn filters out there these days that people use that maybe you could see that someone just kind of like you know bad plastic surgery their picture and that's real versus like here's another picture right here is that computer jet no way oh my god all right i'm putting this one they're all in the corner so you can be watching right now. I actually think this is easier. That's computer.

So this is a picture of her. The caption says, still pick stuff up with my feet, still work well with others. Guess I'm a soccer girl for life. So for the record, Lil Miquela was created like three years ago or something, and she was created as a 16-year-old girl or something. This is a picture of quote-unquote Lil Miquela as a five-year-old at her soccer game in like an early 2000s type shot, and it looks fucking real. Yeah. So like I said, I actually think this is easier to do than the last one that is super creepy, not real real but almost believable so like this the last one i'll

pull that up again uncanny valley this one that's that looks real so you wouldn't call that no no you're out of the uncanny valley but it's also a photo so it'sanny valley, and yeah, we're talking photos right now, but uncanny valley is very subjective. Hypothetically. It is kind of, yeah. So it's not like a... But you know whether you're in it or not. Because you either think it's real or you know it's not real, but it's pretty close and it's like, oh, this is creepy.

It's like you can use like a creepy meter. That's how you can figure it out. So like... you want me to go back to that it's okay no no no i'll go back a little michaela sorry i took it down people okay where do you want me to go nowhere um yeah so like the that one looks pretty fucking real it it looks real but you look at her and you say like there's something off here like it doesn't the eyes that's what it is so the first one doesn't have her eyes open right second one has her eyes open and the eyes look beyond a filter and then look at this one her eyes are almost shut that's this was the first one we were looking at the prom pose that's why it looks kind of real because her eyes are almost

shut there they're squinting yeah so the inner teeth and like look at the eyes here that looks like i mean i look at this and i think video game right immediately exactly see that it's the eyes yeah yeah so a lot of people to avoid the uncanny valley, they just make it, like, blatantly not real. Because if it's blatantly not real, you're not going to have this, like, ooh, this is kind of creepy feeling. But you can get that, ooh, this is kind of creepy feeling, if it's, like, 90-something percent there, right?

So, yeah, I want you to stay on top of what you were getting at. Yeah. That was just a good example. Yeah. So, like, you can either capture it and it's actually going to be real unless you, like, augment it in some way, kind of like you would augment a picture that is a capture of something that's real with Photoshop and make it not real. So, you can either capture it or you can generate it.

If you make it from scratch, you're going to get to like Michaela or a little bit less. That is a lot of work. It's a lot of work. It's expensive, time consuming, et cetera, et cetera.

Right. So to do that with everybody big mess because she's fake she's a total complete creation they're not capturing anyone i'm sure she was based off of a few people but they have to create it so this is separate from what you are this is where you know my my head gets tied because like we were talking about that metaverse and everything, but it's like you're a piece of it. You're creating what you view as the metaverse, but people are also creating what they view as the metaverse, and are those going to be separate worlds? I guess is a good question. So like are people going to create fake people like little Michaela and put that in its own metaverse versus you creating real people that are captured in a real universe to put it in a metaverse and they're going to stay separate? Or is it all going to be like spaghetti and just kind of flow together like an acid trip?

I – the – so like basically is there going to be one standard yes great question i i think naturally there will be it will shake out um but there might be multiple spaces within it i i i don't know how that shakes out on a on a large scale i mean i could get into like my opinions on how people should approach it i think it's uh not necessarily black and white i think a lot of it comes to like how are the pieces being pulled together but those types of things are being done in this metaverse like that kind of stuff Does adoption work the same way though? And that's a really broad question. So to give you an exact example, Facebook was Facebook because they captured the market.

You can't have social media if there's nothing social going on, if there aren't other users coming in. So like someone might have created a perfect looking platform, but two people were using it. No one cares. It's a centralized base so with the metaverse well when you say facebook is controlling the new one is that because they are betting that they're going to get the most users to come in so that's going to become the standard so think think of the metaverse like like the cloud today right like we bucket it as the cloud um it is not just the cloud right like it's it's it's not one platform okay the cloud is like a layer um or how can i easily compare this? So Amazon AWS is one of the biggest, maybe the biggest. I'd be surprised if they weren't.

Cloud providers, right? They don't control the cloud. There are many ways to create a cloud environment. You can use AWS. You can use Google Cloud. You can use- Yeah. Linode.

There's like a thousand things. Dropbox. Right? So the metaverse, I don't think, is going to be this one space, like Oculus, what is slipping? There's an Oculus marketplace kind of thing. That's the VR headset. Yeah, like if you put an Oculus Go on, you go to this central location,

and then you can enter into a bunch of apps and do all kinds of things. I don't think there's going to be like just one of those, will effectively control what the metaverse shapes out to be so if facebook is building the hardware that people wear on their faces if they're building uh the standards for interacting with content they're building uh all of these things that are required the ir cloud uh etc etc etc um facebook will naturally uh dictate like what that metaverse looks like before anybody else builds things but people are going to be free to build metaverses is it metaverses or metaverte or how are we saying it it's a great question it's like cloud cloud do you say clouds yeah you usually just say cloud all right that's interesting i think that's like a good example obviously it's not a one-to-one but this we don't have i don't think we have the

technological capability to do what i'm about to say right now and it's probably i'm guessing very amateur guess but this is something that is probably a couple decades away but could a system be created such that metaverses can just be created on demand as simulations so hypothetically there can be trillions of metaverse i meant i don't fucking know what it is but there can be trillions of metaverse I meant I don't know what it is but there can be trillions of metaverses and if I'm just chilling in my house on a Tuesday I can decide to like a video game enter this simulation right here where all these fake people exist but they don't feel fake and I start to lose the grip between what's real and what's not. I don't know about decades.

Probably sooner than that. A decade? But again, I'm pretty aggressive with these things. Not that that's something you want to be aggressive with. As far as like, but as a prediction, it's not up to you in a way, so it's okay to be aggressive with but as far as like but as a prediction you know it's not up to you in a way so it's okay to be aggressive with it yeah yeah i mean if you would have told people a decade ago the things we'd have some people might have believed you but it still goes to show you how fast it moved. The pace of innovation is tremendous.

It's unreal. Yeah. And I love innovation. You know I'm all about it. It still scares me. Like some stuff going so far. Like every day I think about it. That's why I can't imagine being you.

But I feel like we're at a really like the inflection point is in the midst right now like it's not over it started though and it's like covid was the event that actually springboarded it because it changed our expectations on things. But people are blown away right now when they see that video of Zuck with Gayle King talking in the Emojiverse. Yep. And yet, it's here. And people, they shouldn't be blown away by that.

Yeah. We shall see. I'm excited. I think it's an interesting time um we get to kind of pave what happens next um yeah alongside those companies that's the other thing there are quite a few people fighting to build these key components I wouldn't be surprised if Facebook is just like the clear absolutely abominate absolutely kills everything else what about Apple is a little mushroom what about google and what about exactly yeah yeah so google um i think it's snap snap apple google facebook uh neontech you think snaps that eye up wow oh no i wasn't ranking them oh those are the those are the big ones um to watch out for although i've Oh, wow. I mean, the company that runs TikTok, I was concerned about that for a long time. I talked about it on this podcast, too.

Oh, ByteDance. Yeah, because ByteDance is a Chinese company. It's controlled by the government. But the first guy to break the foundations to me getting more comfortable about it was on this podcast. My friend Mike Laxamamana who's an engineer and walked me through it and he explained the things i was most concerned about about data capture i'm generalizing here but data capture for like machine learning and stuff like that and creating a visual representation in the united states you know in a foreign hands of a foreign

government yeah he was explaining to me the data power that that would require and straight up that it's not yeah it can't be done right now and then i talk i think i talked to you about it too now that it's all blended together but i think you were explaining to me that that there was another part of it that that also can happen so i haven't you know then i got on tick tock and i was comfortable enough to do it i know that there's definitely some stuff going there but when you start to get into the fact that they may be looking to create it that does start to be like okay well what are the capabilities there again because the fact that they are at the mercy of of a foreign power that is not exactly free you know like could that be like how much death can i guess that's a real good question to go to

how much death can happen in a metaverse that then drags into real life like war stuff like that what do you mean by death let's say country a and country b on a large scale enter the same metaverse are they fighting for real estate they're the same same metaverse are they fighting for real estate there the same way that they'd be fighting for real estate I mean all wars are fought over money and land you know and resources yeah are they fighting for it the same way in the metaverse and then does that drag into real actual death or is it like a video game death like if they fight a war in the metaverse that's it I guess it's a good question it could be like whoever controls okay I think of metaverse is

like this overarching term that can be used for a series of things and how you use those, those things, those tools, um, can vary, right? Kind of like cloud. Like when I say cloud, I could mean, uh, content delivery, uh, like a CDN. I could mean storage. I could mean like there's there's a series of things that are all bucketed under cloud and uh i think that's that's similar to like metaverse so there's there's like a ton to unpack in that uh but if you're talking about like a uh a physical space it's it's it's i guess it's kind of the same as like if i took a piece of paper and uh said that this is now a new world um am i gonna you know like fight you over a square well that's the other thing that's finite yeah that paper's eight and a half by eleven say yeah yeah you can either take two inches of it or three inches of it but when you do it that's two or

three inches of it that are gone like you have it it can't be replicated whereas here's another question great for the metaverse if it's not a physical place and it's a simulated place it effectively has no limits like they always joke about god's not making any more land so buy it right because the earth is finite the metaverse hypothetically you can just keep adding to no correct but that would impact things like price yes willingness to go to war over it that's another question so like am i gonna go to war with you if i know we can just make more land you know so here's a good example down at the jersey shore i know that this exists like at least in ocean city and i think it exists in the other ones that have to check it out but

my grandparents have lived down there forever and they live on the beach and in the contract of their home there is something along the lines of their land extends to 10 feet past wherever the tide is at all times so it they own the land hypothetically 10 feet into the ocean at all times now the beach itself is a public property that the state reserves the right to allow people to go to they don't control that but when it comes to selling their land and the ownership deed on it, they own that deep into the ocean because if the earth moved, and it does, and the tide changes, and enough space gets between that a builder wanted to come in and got permission from the state to build a neighborhood behind them, well, that means that they're no longer a beachfront home so the value of their home goes down so to protect the value they have the ownership into the tide now take that to the metaverse if i build a house in the metaverse

that goes for four million dollars because it's a five thousand square foot house is there a way on a certain plot of land is there a way then that we can create smart contracts or something that guarantee the fact that no one else can build that same house and that if someone else builds a house of a similar size it's not going to water down the price automatically due to whatever restrictions you would put on it but by creating those restrictions you're putting you're making it finite i didn't even think of that yeah so so so that's the thing like it might not be finite in and of itself but you can find ways to make it uh limited or increased value right and and if it's me and i know i can just build the same thing next to it or whatever

obviously i'm not going to go to war over it i'm not going to overpay for it i'm going to offer you whatever i want because i can just do that again uh somewhere else or right next to it or whatever the case um doesn't require physical labor all that shit shit. Correct. It's movable, simulatable as you build. I'll just do it. Right? So, and if that was $4 million, like, yeah. Yeah. I think all of those things get taken into account with price just like they do or price

willingness to fight, like any of those things uh just like it would physically so if i'm buying that beach beachfront property it's beachfront today but i don't have that uh a clause like that in that contract in the the purchase of the home, then I'm not going to pay as much because it's not worth as much if something were to happen. Okay, that makes sense. So you can do things like that in a metaverse. Just because it's digital

doesn't mean we can't place restrictions. I guess the question is, who is placing those restrictions same thing that's where you get into the yeah same thing as colonizing Mars correct and you hear Elon and Jeff talk about that yep we like the whole well who sets the laws there yeah it's like and it sounds like a stupid question. It's not. Yeah, it's like the way that we did it here probably wasn't that great. Can we talk about Bezos' laugh after he got back from space, though? It's kind of on the issue. I mean, he doesn't help himself.

No. If people haven't seen that, I'll pull up the video. I'll put it in the corner so you can kind of watch it. But you got to listen to it yourself. he got what was what was the story with that trip again i'm already forgetting what was that uh what when he went to space yeah and like how long was he there uh not long they just kind of went up and but who went up what was it was first what's his company called blue uh blue origin blue origin it was um him i think a college kid and then it was also like his brother or something

i think i cannot remember i know it's so they put the oldest woman in space the youngest person in space i think and they just and they had like one one pilot or something and they went up there for like 15 minutes i think yeah right so it might not have even been 15 minutes that sounds long so how far did they go into space i don't think they went far but the idea was that you could take like a civilian trip there and come back and it's nothing correct yeah so he goes this is him and his brother getting interviewed by cbs or whatever and they were this is right when he got back i think i got turning up in our earbuds damn that kind of looks like a dick i mean they all do but yeah that was the that was the other thing coming out of this kind of looks like a dick i mean they all do but yeah that was the that was the other thing coming out of this that literally looks like a dick all right so let's see

if he's let's say i think this is the end where he laughs but you have to start and big things start with small steps fuck there's no laugh in there he did this laugh i want to get that that it like if dr evil were in real life this was him you know what i'm talking about right yeah yeah yeah because obviously i pick on that guy sometimes but it But it's kind of hard not to with his actions and all that shit. Yeah. But he's in the space race right now.

And he's the guy that's trying to take us there. And so is Elon. Which, I guess the competition, that aspect of it's good. But there's still... There's questions about if he gets gets there first who's in the jurisdiction who's going to make the call on what we're doing like is it is it jeff is it yeah does he have to report back to governments and like you know then you bring in the governments i mean they're they're useless these days it's a mess it's it's a mess but actually not to totally turn it but let's turn it on that I talked with

you a lot over the past few months about data and we've talked about it more from like the perspective of the requirements that that you need to be able to do capture on people and whatever. And that's, that's one thing. And that's like your focus because it's your product. But like looking at this from a broader perspective, we have this whole argument going on in society with people fighting over the goddamn vaccine and everything, which I'm very sick of. But one of the things that is that i separate from the vaccine i think it's it's a part of the issue but it's not about the actual getting the vaccine or not is the whole passport thing they're doing and all that and so so i am not familiar all right so

they're taught like new york and san franc for example, require you to show proof of vaccination how to go places. Got it. And they're talking about implementing that across society. Now, previously, if you go to school, like you put your kid in schools and stuff like that, you have to say whether or not it's like a common question. And it's always been accepted except by the crazy pre-COVID anti-vaxxers where it's like you have to say whether they got tetanus and all that and i've never had a problem with that and i'm not gonna but this one the idea that you will have to show it to go places i don't really on the surface it's an inconvenience i don't care that much but i know the slippery slope of it that's where I started to go well

what else are they then going to make you do and now I mean have you seen what they're doing in Australia uh no and I feel like I probably should oh Australia is insane dude really they are locking people in their houses they had like nine COVID deaths over the summer with the new variants and so in the city of Sydney, for example, they made people stay in their homes under military lock and guard. So the military was fucking watching from the sky in helicopters to see if people were coming out. And again, it's an unarmed society. So no one can really do anything because the guys with the guns of the government. And now in South Australia, I believe it is, we'll check it after. But they are testing out in South Australia a new app that the government runs that people can get checked in on randomly.

Maybe every 15 minutes to have to take a picture of themselves to prove where they are. And if they don't respond to it, the government can send the police to go find their whereabouts. So you know it's funny. So that sounds a little extreme compared to a friend of mine went to London. A couple of friends went to London over the past few months. Also, by the way, I think they just shut the border. Again. um also by the way i think they just shut the border again i'm pretty sure uh u.s citizens cannot travel for leisure to europe right now okay could be wrong but i thought i saw that

uh we'll check it out somewhere the other day um anyway had a couple of friends that went to London. When you land, you have those mandatory quarantine two-week period things, right? Government housing kind of condo apartment situation. Every couple of hours, knock on the door, don't answer. Like alarm. They sound the siren that's hardwired through the apartment uh if you don't come up come to the door and prove that you're there um they'll they'll come after you so like every i think he was saying three to four hours even in the middle of the night so like couldn't sleep straight through the night every three hours somebody's knocking on the door um they're making sure that you're that you're in

there and i think that was that might not have been a full two weeks that might have been a week i don't care if it's a couple days but if people that's extreme if people can't see the precedent of these things yeah yeah and it's like police at the at the door knocking on the door you have like a couple minutes to respond or whatever and then they're like coming in the power that you are willingly give that you are willingly giving the government to do that yeah is not even remotely close to worth the trade-off. And it's not to say, hey, we all just got to go out there and everyone's got to die.

Well, that's not what it is. It is a danger. But here's the other thing. There's a lot of misinformation on the actual vaccine itself about its efficacy and what's working. And it's driving more of that anti-vax argument and stuff yes would i like to see a vaccine work in the sense that you never know you have the thing it's supposed to protect against if it comes into contact with your body

sure is this vaccine working less technically in that department i I guess so. The data shows that. That said, in my opinion, if you look at the data, the vaccine is working because the people who are getting it, especially people who are high risk, who are vaccinated and then contract the new variants, by and large, they're doing well. It's the people who are unvaccinated who are filling the emergency rooms and leading to deaths right now. And I don't mean to be mean here, but it's going to come across how it comes across. I do believe you should have a choice what you put in your body. But I am not willing to change my life for you when you have access to this and have made a decision not to do it.

That's on you yeah and now we have governments telling people that because other people aren't complying they're dragging it on to everyone else including the rest of us who are vaccinated and that i'm not okay with because they are now using this as a way to gain power over people including people who take the correct steps that are at their fingertips to take and therefore then have their lives completely completely upended because other people won't do it that's a problem yeah yeah no i agree i think um just like anything it's a it's a balance um yeah it's so it's it's a hard topic i know but i bring this up not not to go off of it but i bring it up because like the australia example for for that one or even the london one if there's some sort of this tracking using technology yep they are using that tech they you are essentially the same

thing we're arguing over about quote unquote vaccine passports you kind of already have it because you have the phone in your pocket and when it's not going to be a phone it's going to be something else and they can use the data to circulate where you are and technically you don't have any privacy and so i'm starting to worry about like privacy has always been an issue and there's parts of it that we just willingly give up to get access to things and benefits like you talked about. my alarms go up because now you are telling me that governments are using in this case in australia the i guess the iphone or the the apple and the google app systems to create an app that google and apple have to let them create i guess that's probably how it works that then you know they're

basically commandeering those companies to use their infrastructure to control a population and some people will say i'm being naive right now because that's already been happening for a long time. Of course it has, but this is the issue. This is what Snowden tried to point out. This is what in the past we seem like the San Bernardino situation with Apple not turning over that guy's cell phone to the government where the government wanted it, at least publicly they did you know we're going backwards and you're in the middle of that world you're not apple you're

not google you're not building that but you're you're part of building a new infrastructure here and the question of you know to what extent do people tap on your shoulder from powerful organizations and by that i usually mean the government who don't have the right intentions in mind to what extent does that then affect guys like your ability to make a decision that's best for people or best for the company to what extent has that happened so far? Do you anticipate that happening? I imagine it hasn't happened a ton yet. It's happened a little bit. Really?

Yeah. Can you go into that? I don't know how much I should. Yeah, I mean, nothing terrible. But yeah, it has happened a little I don't it hasn't impacted any decisions

that I've made that I can happily say and I would like to think that if it did it would be a good thing

but I also am aware that it probably will not always be that um i i truly do not know um i do have friends that are in or have been in those positions before um i'll say one of them was not forced but chose to sell a very fast-growing company he made a lot of money it was a nine figure sale but chose to sell versus make some difficult decisions uh that may or may not have been like against morals against etc etc wait a second you're if i'm understanding that correctly you're saying that he was forced into a cell with a private entity where the connotation was that the government,

wherever it was, was pressing upon that sale to be made so that they would have access to whatever it was. No. So, so there was there was a lot of pressure to provide uh access to data that he did not want to provide access to um and i think at a certain point he chose to sell. I think it became, this is going to be an ongoing battle and I have to decide whether

I am the one to fight this war or if I should sell this to somebody that I know will fight this war with me or for me kind of thing. They weren't huge. They were extremely valuable, but not huge. And I think at a certain point it was, I can't take this war on myself, that kind of thing.

So he chose to sell it. And then I think once he was comfortable that it was in good hands um the tech um he is i think he's building another company now but um how comfortable can you be that something's in good hands though that's a really fair question never i i think uh there were two parts to it one it was um access to data ongoing and the the use to be or i guess the fear that you could use um information already gathered or that you may gather in the future for things that are bad. But also, he was like, that whole company was built on transparency to customers. His company was? Yeah. Or yeah new one that was buying him

no well i kind of both of them but the first one more so or his more so so that that was like his golden rule was like we play in gray areas um i'm going to be extremely transparent because these are gray areas. So I think we might've talked about this before, but like great example, the capture a 3d model of the inside of your home. Is that personally owned or is that owned by the company? Is that owned by anybody? Should that be public? These are like difficult questions and it's somewhat gray area, right?

I might be able to publicly find a floor plan of a house or like technical drawings, I guess. I'm not sure if that's public, but I'm sure you could dig it up online. A 3D map of your space uh everything in it manipulable like that we're starting to get a little no i i like this you know it's good i i think i think it the main thing you have to remember is that this all breaks down into eras. So internet 1.0 was introducing the internet. And the gray area of that introduction was what happens when we all have the ability to actually connect in a community that isn't in the real world. And that can instantaneously bring a bunch of different countries around the world together. Internet 2.0 was the social revolution.

So the gray area there was what happens to our personalities and the way we think when we create massive opportunities for groupthink in an entirely new world. Internet 3.0 is the reality gray area. And the answer, the question that we have there is that what happens when we start to bring things together that aren't real and tell people that they are what effect does that have on human beings this is a wild thing to consider and my thought is that you will see people continue just as they have in the first two to just go with the flow and you will even see that with companies like your buddies right there,

which is a part of the quote-unquote business capitalism system of it and going with the flow of the fact that you're going to have offers and everyone has a number. And there comes a point where it's like, well, you know what? I think I will go build the next thing.

I'll cash out on this one. I think it's in good hands and I'll move on. The problem is you think it's in well you know what i think i go i will go build the next thing i'll cash out on this one i think it's in good hands and i'll move on the problem is you think it's in good hands maybe it is maybe it isn't but you let it out of your hands someone else is now and so the tool that's used there and it's someone's going to use something for bad as we already talked about yeah but like the tools that you use there like he can say all day and i'm not ripping this guy i understand exactly where he's coming from and like if i were talking with him i'd say it just like this it's not well so it came from a point of like i know i can't win this battle and that's and i wasn't even going to say that but that's another point because if he's sitting

there going i know no matter what if i take a moral stand it's not going to matter in six months or i can do this and they have a fighting chance i may not now that's fair and so in that case he made the right decision but the honesty or question of the honesty around i'm always going to be transparent with this company i believe him in intent but the final result is going to be not that if you're faced with that type of scenario because once you start to get to a scenario where you're going to give it up, well, now you can't guarantee transparency, and I guarantee you you're not getting it. Like I'm going to take the more not optimistic side there and say they're not carrying on wherever he sold it to. They're not carrying that on at least in the full vision that he had it. No. You know, that's why I also respect these places that frankly generate like a lot of hate because of it.

But you see places like, let's use 8chan, for example, which essentially like hatched QAnon, which we can all agree, I hope, that was bad. Like, you don't want to see that. That's a bad community that formed it's people that are desperate for something to cling on to something and have all these ideas and it shows you how manipulable so many people are but the fact that it was a forum that was open to everything made at an 8chan i mean made 8chan unique and i appreciate that with a with a now internet form that seems to be closing everything because there are still the internet is still an

open place so when people want to find a way to meet they can and i think brady briquette said it in here he said it brilliantly i agree with him he's like if they're gonna do it i want them doing it where i can see him yeah you know and that's like that's the other thing like people who really thought trump was bad for twitter i'll even agree with you he was but like don't you want him where you can see him don't you want him where it's like you know what he's doing i don't know what he's doing right now you know it might not be bad it might it might be fine like he's probably done hopefully that is the case but like you don't see it you don't know what's going on so what did you really accomplish with that and it comes back to censorship obviously that's what i'm talking about here but the we have this world that has the ultimate transparency and is even

talking about ridiculous transparency like some of the things you have to think about with a world that's also closing down transparency and telling you you can't do it in certain instances and it's the same like that's a conundrum we have that's opposites and another conundrum is decentralization becoming more centralized you know we're talking about decentralization with currency cryptocurrencies and things like that and Bitcoin and stuff that I believe in, in a world that is also more and more controlled by few, you know, these companies in this case, who are then hand in hand with the government and everything, every deal ends up coming back to them because they have the greatest economies of scale and the greatest connections. Yeah. It's money. It's power. It's impact. actions yeah it's money it's power it's uh impact can be scary do you ever talk about this like with some of those guys because i know you got guys at these companies no no very very rarely i mean i

could probably count on one hand the number of conversations. You mean like folks at like the big – yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely not at like director or higher level. Sure. higher level sure is the other thing and it's got to be said is that there's no telling that it wouldn't be the right move for you if the right opportunity came around to sell to a big company like that especially if they threatened your ability to exist at all in which case it becomes the exact

question your friend had like well it's going to happen anyway yeah do i want to make a moral stand and be the idiot that it didn't do anything and and i got nothing or do i want to be like all right well at least this will fund my ability to move up with the next project and maybe i'll be at a point where i don't have to take that kind of deal well so we've already seen we've seen M&A interests I don't know how much I've said to you but yeah yeah so so we've we've been there a little bit um I don't expect that to slow down I think it's probably going to pick up um if you look at it in in reality it's it's super attractive to any number of them any big tech company making a significant investment in ar vr right now um or spatial uh computing or next generation of media or any of those areas,

this is a good acquisition for them, depending on the number. Depending on the number. Yeah, yeah. And I think for us it's like, don't get me wrong, because this is probably quite a quite a large win uh to most sure but i think um i mean i don't see any reason why uh can't be a large public company yeah because each one of these companies did have to avoid that yeah at some point even apple like back in the day had to avoid giving in to the number and selling they had to have whether you agree with what it turned

out to be or not they had to have some sort of greater vision that like no we're going to pave the way we're going to be that so like you know you got your apple you have your facebook you have your google you have your amazon you have your Airbnb. They all managed to stay the course and maybe take a huge risk in doing that that they were going to get beat or beaten by larger economies of scale that other companies have. And yet they managed to hang in there and then become that company. I mean do you – is that the ultimate goal if you had your choice ultimate goal what like would that be what you want a company yeah yeah um goal for the company yeah yeah yeah i think that's like i could see it as a very real possibility. I'm also not naive, though. I know there are quite a few companies

that this would be very valuable for, that it's probably a good fit, that will probably use it in the right ways. And if everything made sense and got to go there and continue to run it or head up product or something like that right um there's a lot i guess there's a lot to think about um but i i wouldn't be um naive and say i I would never, you know,

we would never look at that. Like, yeah. Yeah, you can't say that. We look at it if it's serious and we've looked at them before and we'll continue to. You're also under a requirement to your investors to do that. Yeah.

You can't just say, fuck it. Like, you have to at least look. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, selfishly, I hope it goes the way of the ultimate goal goal which is that you carve your own way because you're also doing something different here we'll see how this show

goes obviously we're getting there right and if i could just keep doing this like that's the dream that's and that's fuck it i'm not gonna fail like we're gonna keep rolling but yeah you're doing this format you're on record this is now your second time doing it and as people can tell i ask you whatever the hell i want to ask you sometimes there's something that you can't give you know some sort of detail on and we say that but this is an open forum where you're just shooting the shit and talking about it and as far as i can tell maybe there's an example out there i'm unaware of but in a platform like this that's not some fucking you know production at cbs or something like that i don't think there are

there are people who have now made it big names in tech like zuckerberg chesky something like that that have the record of doing this while they're building even musk you know with rogan because he gets pretty gets pretty real on those after the fact but he's in the middle of doing a lot of and it's cool and that's why a lot of people he's a lightning rod but a lot of people really trust him and like him because he tells you what he's doing you know there's not you don't worry most people do not think about the ulterior motives quote-unquote of Elon Musk like they do of Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos because Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos don't do this no no it's silence you

know so I appreciate the fact that you're on record talking about these things out loud because people can see where that decision that tough decision is and you're kind of talking them through it before it happens whatever way it goes. So I think – like let's paint a scenario here and let's say two different scenarios. First one is two years from now, you guys sell. You sell to Facebook and you're in there running product. You're on record talking about that that could happen and you're talking about what you would want to see from it. And so people can say like, okay, he got offered a lot of money. So he's going to go along with some things in there. But at the very least, they know that you already said,

hey, that's a possibility. And here's why I would do it. So they appreciate that level of the transparency. And then they hope for the best. And they hope it's like you hope it's going to be in there. The second scenario is, we're sitting here two years from now and you're the new Airbnb for this space. And you've now the new Facebook, whatever. You've carved your own way. And now you have this power because you're running this company that's fucking changing the world. And people can go back and look at this and see how you were of concern you have even if you're numb to some of it the level of concern you have for what the rights of people are going to be and what what the right way to use this

technology is you're thinking about that well so that that's the other thing that i was going to say even if i don't respond in depth um these are things that are very much top of mind. So, yeah. No, I think that's... I think it'll be cool to see. I do think there's some appeal to building in the dark um what elon does opens himself up to uh extreme criticism and i think uh so he gets he gets a ton of praise and it's awesome right i'm huge elon fan i love the way that he operates i like how he's blunt he's he's brutally honest um

he's a little aggressive on timelines i tend to be the same way so sometimes you get hung up on that but realistically um i i like it there are downsides to it the other thing, like going on Joe Rogan, that event can be called a distraction, right? Sure. So this is the same kind of thing that I think about. And part of why it took me a while to do things like this, it's not because I don't want to. It's not because I don't have a lot to say or actually have quite a bit to say. Yes. But, and have learned a lot

and would love to share things like that. This has been a blast. But there's this like, it might just be some sort of mental block myself too, but as the company grows, there's more and more cetera. And all of these people, there's like a reasonable expectation that you're going to do everything you can all the time to ensure the success of the company. So like, I think that for me for a while was like a block.

It was like doing something that isn't, you don't see immediate value in is like maybe something I shouldn't be doing. Or a downside. You see potential downside in it. Yeah, yeah. Correct. That's the other thing, right?

Could it be a liability instead of an asset? It's because you're not viewed because you haven't been public you're not viewed yet maybe in the private circles that are aware of you like outside your company like investors stuff like that you're not viewed as irreplaceable yet elon is irreplaceable because he's been there done that right you're doing it once you have that demonstrated brand power and demonstrated ability to get the result you won't have to think about that as much you you can think of it in the context of how much of a distraction do i want to be for certain things like how much do i want to openly bring on that's still a question the downside question but there's less of a question of self-preservation of if i do this i may lose it like no you're not you you are going to be able you know as long as you're not out

there committing crimes and like that like yeah you're going to be able to do what you want to do you know what's interesting that that actually doesn't bug me i completely get that and i'm sure uh part of me uh doesn't do things like that's definitely a reason that I think about but I don't I don't think that like blocks me that that doesn't that doesn't bother me that much like if I um I the reality is like I am replaceable to some degree, right? Like I could give you 50 reasons in 30 seconds as to why, like, I think I can do what I'm doing better than anybody else can, uh, and why that should be the case for a very long time. Um, but I also know if there's a reason or if at some point was not, true anymore then like i would i would want that

to change does that make sense so yes so if i go and do something stupid or say something stupid like i'm bringing it upon myself i would expect that to happen um again maybe that's just like, uh, I'm a little bit harsh on like personal performance and things like that. But, um, yeah, yeah. So that doesn't bug me as much, but it is the reality too. So in some way, even subconsciously, it's something you think about. Like, I don't want, A, I don't want to be distracted because there is a reasonable expectation that I am doing these things, but also because I will personally feel like I am not doing enough if that is how external parties or internal parties are taking it. You know what, though?

Let's just use the elon example you brought up when you create a lightning rod of a situation like that like going on joe rogan smoking weed like the ultimate lightning rod of a situation balls yeah you were going to guarantee that among the general public a lot of people are going to hate you, including people who are in and around directly invested in Tesla or powerful people, including who are, have some ability to impact your bottom line, customers, whatever, all this stuff. However, you are also going to guarantee that you are going to get an Illuminati of people who fucking love you and you can do no wrong, which is a dangerous, if you're not a good person that's a

dangerous thing to get if you look at someone like jeff bezos and mark zuckerberg though who don't do publicity powerful people like that what is our automatic opinion of them across the majority of society yeah we don't like them yeah they don't get upside because they don't do anything like they may be a distraction if they do stupid shit like go smoke weed on Joe Rogan but they're also gonna get a lot of lovers yeah Elon gets a lot of lovers and then plays into that by being this openly transparent guy fucking Trump when he won office did the thing. Think about all the times he shot himself in the foot. He was able to take two steps forward to win office because he did so many things that people found endearing

or loved about, including flaws. Whereas all these other buttoned-up politicians were like, don't make a mistake. Don't talk to them about this. Don't lose script on this. They got punished for that. Well, that was, yeah. So that was one of the things i was going to say i think that's like the biggest reason um when when you see mark or jeff do uh like press conferences and stuff

it's either they're talking at the dev conferences that they hold. They're announcing new products. Prepared questions. Yeah, yeah. And it's very scripted. Or something catastrophic happened, and they're playing damage control. It's never the brutally honest in the middle. I think that was one of the coolest things about Clubhouse in the early days of Clubhouse, too. And I'll be honest, I haven't been on there very much.

RIP Clubhouse. Yeah, right. When they had, when Sriram, who I think he's a partner in Dreesen now. Yes, yes. When he had Mark on, it still felt a bit robotic. Mm-hmm. But you could tell he was starting to get to the point uh where he would just have a conversation it was cool and then he would divert back to like okay i'm reading

off of like bullet points that somebody's telling me to say or whatever but um that was like the first of that you you at least for me i had seen um it was better than this was on there too it was better than the base i agree yeah yes uh and elon it's like it's just wildly different even if you're just shooting the shit it's right off the top of the brain he's not thinking about it um or if he thinks about it almost feels like he's overthinking it um and by overthinking i mean like uh every situation playing out in front of you uh before you do something if this makes sense to you there is a tone there's something in somebody's voice before you even see them on camera which is another thing clubhouse didn't have that hurts but there is just a thing that we can

as humans pick up on where we know whether or not the face just went on or you're getting the good bad and indifferent of exactly what this person is and like with elon he had the famous clubhouse one where he came on for the first time after the robin hood thing and then pulled gladden and you listen to him, he sounds almost like a little kid, just like, ah, fuck it, let's do it. And I think he was even cursing a little bit too. He was, yeah. As Vlad came in, he's like, so what the fuck happened?

Exactly. Whereas when you heard Zuckerberg in there, I agree with you, when he was in there that one time, he was in there for like an hour. So it wasn't this bullshit 10-minutebs production it was more off the cuff you still felt like though the robot came on number one and number two he was definitely told ahead of time and we don't know that but he was definitely told ahead of time like here's the different subcategories we're going to go into here's some questions you can expect you know what I mean whereas Elon subjects himself to like Rogan where you know some people argue with this but

go listen to that first one yeah that was the most off-the-cuff thing you love like I do this for a living I know like what that is it's off the cuff like mighty have said told them ahead of time here's a few things i'll definitely go into absolutely but when you sit down with someone for two and a half three hours you know it now too like yeah buttons are gonna get pushed man like it's not just run you're free flowing so and i give you a lot of credit for doing that because you came on when i'm a nobody i'm still a nobody right now but i'm less of a nobody than last time and this does live forever. It's online You know what I mean? Yeah, so someone some kids gonna be looking at you ten years from now and maybe you're you're now Anthony Fenn you it's like

Zuck and Fenn you whatever, you know what I mean, but they're gonna be able to point to something like this Whereas with Zuck, they're only gonna be able to point to bullshit conferences Sit-downs with Gayle King, you know, Karish Wisher, prepared questions. It's not controlled situations. So I think that there's – is there downside to it? Sure, but you can create your own Illuminati following through that of people who actually feel like they know you and understand you. I mean look at Pomp in the crypto space. He's done that effectively because he's

been a man of the people on twitter and he he is even though his podcast is very regimented and it's a similar length every time and it's you know certain things are always going to be asked of people he's out there he's talking with people he's's in the communities. He's having the conversation. He's doing the fucking pizza in Central Park with people. He's a human, you know, and he happens to be a pretty powerful venture capitalist now at this point, too. There aren't enough guys who are leveraging that and doing that, you know. So I appreciate the fact that you're doing it, being someone in that world and whatever and and you as you said we're always careful about what press you did and you actually did no press for like two years ahead of doing this yeah but the first time you jump back in is in a scenario where you didn't know what was coming

yeah i mean i i told you i just talk with people and you actually watched like all my podcasts before that so you knew exactly what it was yeah and you were like i'm gonna do it yeah yeah i walked into a couple of like uh quotes in articles and stuff like tech articles um by accident um i think baker did too uh i don't know he sent me a link to something one day. It was like an AI article on TechCrunch. And I'm like, what is this? Yeah, man, I got quoted. Yeah, yeah. He's like, I talked to so-and-so over there, and he tossed me in.

I'm like, okay. Some random. Probably had no idea who he was talking to. No, no. I think he was at some party in silicon valley or something at some bar and somebody asked him who he was and he was oh my god okay oh by the way i'm writing a story that's a bad story christ bad story yeah right but anyway yeah that was like the first time i had uh done anything um and it was an absolute blast and happy to be back and yeah thank you i was

it was that was a key episode here that was something that really started to i think looking in the context of it knowing what i know now and knowing from people who've adopted the show and and all the listeners out there that's something that really early on was the first stick your finger up in the air like that and see where the wind's going and people started to take things somewhat seriously here which was cool because it was you could tell what it was and i i also and i'm glad it happened this way you and i talked on the phone before and i had a concept of what you were doing i was like oh wow then you sent me an email with some links and that i also purposely didn't look at some of them i never

told you that but it was kind of funny to look at afterwards but i went in there really eyes wide shut and i was legitimately finding out on the podcast like oh wait a second oh this is like legit oh wow you know and i think that that ended up in hindsight being a good decision because I had a lot of basic questions on things because I really didn't know. And then you got really deep in some of those answers. And so people are hearing this like, holy shit, this guy is inventing the metaverse. So I like having that. But it's also a matter of like what people are going to give you. And you were very, you know, there's when it comes to funding and stuff like that, you have to be confidential about things. We know that.

Like that's fine. I don't think people really give a shit about that. But, you know, when it came to details of what you're looking at and how it works and explaining compression like a pipe and how your pipe plays into the other pipes and stuff like that people hear that and they're like oh wow like he's actually he's divulging here you know this is not this is this is a real time real conversation about it and then you also generate those fans i talked about from that because now people you're on their their radar and you had mentioned something about this maybe like 20 minutes ago something like that it all blends together but you had mentioned something about this maybe like 20 minutes ago, something like that. It all blends together.

But you had said like you've done everything to kind of stay out of the spotlight. You're known in the communities that are important. When you got to talk to a prominent venture capitalist who we all know their name from the public, they know who you are. That's what matters to you, right? But you guys are not Instagram influencers. Far from it. You guys also managed to, as I call it, be three assholes in Jersey just chilling like in a house away from Silicon Valley. Still away from Miami, though I know that's certainly a temptation. Yeah, that one hurts.

Right. But the point is everyone else, Ziggs, and you guys have been content and not hurt by zagging and kind of staying in your own actually i don't want to call it your own bubble managing to stay outside of that bubble and continue to kind of just build on your own and things like that but you're talking about how that naturally and we touched this last time but now we're closer to it that's coming towards an end and there's a benefit in that people in pop culture who you want to work with they're going to know who you are yeah your reputation will precede you you won't have to sell them you know it's going to be like oh that's the hologram guy yeah let me talk to him right you have a lot of

leverage you also then have leverage to control narratives in public you can even do it coming in here by how you answer questions i ask you or what you bring up or talking with tech crunch whoever it is you have more like oh anthony fenu or riley horvath or justin baker got quoted let's check that out like people there's the recognition but the downside is you also now have in that situation you're going to have the spotlight on you and you're going to have you're going to be open to criticism and people are going to form narratives against you and until you do a lot like demonstrate a lot a lot that changes the game there is early on leverage that say the media or people that don't give a about your interests are gonna have against you so have you thought a ton about

that seeing as it's like you're on the doorstep of it and do you think that that's gonna it's gonna change how you run the day-to-day operations of the company or do you feel like you can kind of keep it flowing how you are and just have a pr team as well to kind of duck and cover um it's a good question um i think i've put maybe one percent of thought to it um so very little I think it's happening quick. The couple of things that we did do have been awesome. So naturally, want to keep doing them again, want to be conscious of how we do things. Like what kinds of things anything well from a company perspective what we release when we release it i think we should we kind of have like a this big backlog from um i don't know cool people that we work with to um a handful of amazing investors that have pretty large names yeah things like that that um we can start to talk about i think everybody is okay with us talking about them it's just uh we never did so it just became i think it just became assumed that like all right they're just

gonna they're just gonna keep it on the low for now. Um, I actually had a conversation with somebody about this the other day and he was like, yeah, man, like go out and talk to people. You can tell them that I'm involved.

Do, do, do you please? Who was that? Uh, I'll give another one. Cause you just got back to no corner. We put together a release though.

Uh, okay. Is that release coming out within a week two weeks i'm gonna hold you do that two weeks yeah if it's not out i would have just burned our first release almost did it uh give another one though that's not a release um be an investor client whatever yeah yeah also trigger uh agency in los angeles is the first physical studio setup uh or second physical studio and i've heard of that what's their so trigger is a an immersive agency um we've been working with uh pretty much the whole team over there, but Jason, the CEO, and Ryan Holman on the immersive production and technical team is fantastic. When you say agency, can you explain to people what you mean there? Yeah, so like a content creation,

they'll create immersive content. They'll build brand experiences they do deployments with large brands things like that using your software so customers include like Verizon

AT&T I'm pretty sure they work with most of the big ISPs like beverage brands so what kinds of things would they be creating i won't use verizon because there's a lot of different things there at tnc what kinds of things would they be creating for them well so they they do a lot of like marketing advertising campaigns physical activations things like that um okay and then they'll build like like a physical activation might have some utility so an example um like golf so swing analysis um i know that's a physical activation that um they're working on uh with like a couple of pga guys and um i believe a large basketball well-known

basketball player um i know who that is are you saying who that is though because you told me i know i know who you're talking about yeah i don't i don't know who who who can you talk i'm trying to give i'm trying to give the people something now. I can talk about a couple of our investors, advisors. Yeah, let's do that. Fantastic. Start there. Sandeep Kumar from Night Scape Ventures out in Austin. And then Luke Lloyd Davies from Elton John's family office.

So Elton John's family office. Um, and. So Elton John's invested in SOAR. Yeah. And then. It's fucking awesome. Um, yeah,

that's, that's super cool. I don't think we've ever said that publicly. There we go. Um, that's a big one. That's a good one. Um,

yeah. And there's, there's a, a handful of them that have been fantastic um so yeah it's super exciting we're surrounded by great people um i think everybody's got a common goal and just super excited now like elton john's a perfect example though because all right he's got and a lot of people don't know this about some of these guys but like he's a good example he's got a great family office

very interested in tech and investing in all kinds of shit but he's also even though he's older he's he's a legend and he's he's music right he's a creator he's the exact type of person you want to work with so not only do you get someone personally invested in your success but then they also are invested in wanting to use the product and bring it to the world yeah so like i i know you guys have been thinking about a lot of different things and there's nothing like concrete like that you're going to do first but just on like a broad level i assume within elton john among the types of things you can consider is that okay let's figure out how to put you in concert in all different places for people is that something that he's

automatically interested in um i wouldn't say like automatically interested so you got to sell him on that a little bit i i think it's like a like what's what's happening at the time is this like a a thing that makes sense for what i'm doing right now right like so uh he's going into a new again i don't know how much of this is okay public but yeah be careful he's releasing um some music yeah he announced that the other day okay you're okay cool cool cool was the whole thing he announced i'm not don't don't say but i know i remember because there are several stories about it yeah like on instagram i put one on my instagram i just can't remember what was yeah just he released something we'll leave it at that so we have no gray area there yeah um And so like some things attached to that would be great timing.

Got it. Yeah, yeah. And so like also like that's a group too. So Luke, who... What do you mean it's a group? So, well, there's the family office, but Luke, who runs the family office, also runs or is the coo of rocket entertainment group which is him uh elton and david furnish um his husband yes yeah yeah and and rocket entertainment is like they've done uh tv shows uh they have the the record label a few things you can do there yeah right so like pretty deep and and it's super strategic so um yeah luke's been awesome the whole everybody there's been great see that's a home run. Yeah. Like, it's just, if you can get them to invest a dollar,

just like it's a home run. Yeah, yeah. And that's like the, so we, I connected with them through another investor, advisor, and good friend now who runs a venture fund in New York.

New York and London is that what I think it is Nick Shecker Demian who's an absolute killer yeah he's been he's been fantastic so he's built a couple of companies. Now he runs a venture fund. He does big SPVs all the time. I think he – they're investors in like BlockFi, Axiom Space, did a $100, $150 million round. A couple of big names. it i just put it something on the screen there for you that's not him right i don't want to say that out loud oh no but can totally talk about uh baron do all right let's do that yeah yeah so aaron lee zucker was one of the early guys at PayPal. And then from PayPal...

Wait, he was in the PayPal mafia? He was not in the mafia. He was like one of their early employees. Yeah, yeah. When you think of the mafia, you think about like Max Levchin, Reid Hoffman. Elon. Yeah, yeah. Peter Thiel.

You know, it's funny. I think we actually ran through all these names last podcast too. We did. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so he was not in the mafia but he was pretty early employee number five that kind of deal yeah yeah he was pretty low i don't i don't actually know the number and i can't remember that's fine i'm just saying like yeah early employee yeah so he was an early employee of PayPal. He built merchant services at PayPal, which is now huge. Right. Then after PayPal, he ended up at Activision, and he led Call of Duty.

He led the revamp of Call of Duty when they started to ship really late it was just like a dare I say dumpster fire so he led the revamp of engineering at Activision I believe he was like the interim

CTO for a while or for a bit he was so he made Call of duty what it is yeah effectively or a good way to say it is he kept it from absolutely tanking because i think i think what was happening at the time and um i'm probably gonna mess this up but i think uh somewhere along the way they started to get really backed up on releases, like extremely backed up. uh revamp things and pull it back up and then hit releases on time or it was going to absolutely tank they were going to release uh even more uh planned games way late like we're talking like a year plus late um so went through that uh helped revamp call of duty stated activision for a bit um and has just been an absolute uh

guru he's he's one of the smartest people that i know um again good friend advisor um yeah is he an investor too or yeah he he is. That's awesome. Yeah. Well, so that's kind of the thing. It's like a natural fit, right? Oh, yeah. And this happens with us too. It's like if you're going to put a bunch of time in advising, you want financial upside, right?

Like what's the easiest way to get financial upside um cut a check become a uh some type of owner right i think it's also though you're thinking about not just who's gonna cut a check and then be invested in like the success but who who's still in that type of position of power because obviously they spent years getting there and they've done a lot of work who still has the drive to like be kind of boots on the ground with you too well yeah and it sounds like he's that guy yeah yeah that's that's the thing and and so it's ironic he he actually just started another he started another company no yeah yeah recently um he is super stealth so I don't know much about it okay um yeah I kind of I wish I knew a little bit more I'm sure I'll prize some more out of him but

um I know it's it's in biohacking um oh which is super interesting uh he is a guru in the space. I know absolutely nothing. Is he a CRISPR guy? I have no clue. Anthony, you've got to get informed on that space man. Yeah, I don't know much about it. I feel like I've had my head in the weeds there. But I would back Halsey on anything.

He's an absolute killer. Wow. Yeah. there but i i would back lz on anything he's an absolute killer uh wow yeah so uh yeah yeah but but overall he's he's been fantastic uh both as an advisor to the company but like personally too um i think he helped i know he helped a lot with personal growth over the past year, longer. Set some, I guess we'll call it infrastructure for movement toward mindfulness and awareness. And that whole journey has been super interesting, super eye-opening for me, and extremely helpful for high performance and stress management. Like a founder whisperer kind of deal. Yeah, yeah. Consular.

Yeah, like a – I guess we'll call it a coach of sorts. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, he's just a guru so on top of having been there multiple times um he's much further along in like the uh process i guess you could say another guy i'm thinking of i and i just want to make sure before i say this i don't have to edit anything just like we did with the other guys which was good yep but your friend in Australia with the uh coding yeah yeah Connor okay all right so we can talk about him yeah yeah we keep his last name out okay so Connor sorry is he's an engineer that's worked for you guys who's a genius and he's not like 10 either he's he's

been around yep who was a part of leading up the team within your company that found that quote-unquote compression algorithm in 2018 that is now patented as among compression it's the fastest compression algorithm in the world for because there's all different types for specifically live streaming holograms correct yeah roughly speaking yeah it's also the only one that achieves live right so it's it is its own thing and it is property of you guys because as a part of your team along with connor put it together and connor has I don't have the rankings in front of me so I don't want to say for sure but roughly speaking if you go on to

github and you look at the compression rankings of open source meaning not patented they're available for anyone to use of compression around the world for different use cases that guy is all over the board he owns like the top a lot of the top 20 as i understand yeah so i forget exactly um i forget exactly what it is but um there is there's like some some sort of compression ranking where he's been going back and forth with this company. It's quite literally a company and that is like their core and they work on it and they ship updates regularly and he'll go on. He,

he waits. It's like a cruel game. He'll wait. And then like, uh, I forget when the last time he did it was but uh it might have been like um i don't know one of the last holidays it was just like yeah by the way i'm gonna take an extra day they're starting to do okay i'm gonna crush them again and then he'll just like turn up the heat and absolutely absolutely demolish them and if you go in there it's people like who the fuck is this guy because

there's it's a single person no well it is all of that is but there's but it's still that it's the fact that like you have a team of fucking people that are like doing this all the time and then connor in a weekend can beat him and connor in a weekend can set them fucking six months back why are they doing an open source if they're a company well it might not be their core you know why are they doing anything open source though well there's a ton of companies that do i mean we could open source a bunch i know but at that level like with that kind of you know what i mean like i feel like that's it that's where it gets into proprietary you know what i mean you can well so like like we have proprietary stuff that um will contribute to the volumetric format association you know it's it's like not so it's what ingredients you give that

are going to threaten the company versus what ingredients you can give that are just for the good of the space and you're going to be all right correctly okay yeah or correct yeah you just like kind of pick and choose obviously what makes sense what doesn't make sense um and uh you you ultimately you want to help the community too so even if it was something that like you could make money on you could make a lot of money on if you're going to make a lot of money on a lot of other things you pick and choose and you're like all right well will this dramatically increase the amount of content that's being created because now people can create more content or whatever that chain might look like there's probably some ancillary benefit to just like open sourcing it this guy and i don't know him but everything i've heard about him i like him

yeah he's interesting he's he strikes me as a real fuck it kind of rebel in a lot of ways is that somewhat fair to say it's interesting because there's like two there's like two dynamics there one of them is like it rebel and the other side that's constantly pulling is like perfection it's it's it's super interesting um but yeah he's he's like very meticulous very uh everything needs to be like perfect but you pull the other way and it's like it this is far from perfect let's just run it it's working got it let's go move move move yeah it's i mean it's a good thing you you actually like i would prefer that dynamic over anything because it's like if i need to move quickly to get something to a customer or to do whatever or some breaks and like i got

to fix it real fast like i want to get that out as quick as possible it does not need to be perfect it just needs to be marginally better than whatever we fucked up last time. Right. Like that's a situation where moving quickly is perfect on the other side, like longterm, you want that meticulous, sure. Like product is done when everything is perfect.

So I guess the question is is though this is a guy who seems to very much value a decentralized ecosystem value the group iterating on things given by the fact that he makes fucking everything open source so how did you convince him to come on board you know because this was early on this is before you had anything i mean he's part of the team that put together he was probably the key player to come in to build the damn thing how do you convince him like hey i know you're a big open source guy and whatever but can you come build something privately with us as well and work with us because he's he seems to be gung-ho like fits in perfectly to the team everyone loves them and and it's mutual and everything and

it's also like to get there like to even get that opportunity kind of blows my mind that he said yeah fuck it i'm in well so he worked on he worked on early game engines so like he worked on unreal uh unreal engine he worked on unity like really really really early yeah uh he knows like i'm pretty sure he knows david from unity the one of the founders of unity really well um i think same thing with tim sweeney at unreal um so he he worked on like game engines super early that's kind of why he had that like perfect background to be able to, uh, fill in the gaps from what we knew. But, um, he went from game engine stuff to, well, actually kind of stayed in there and

was at Crytek, uh, for a little bit. Um, and then he was just doing consulting um so when we reached out to him he was doing a lot of like robotics consulting um but it was all contract work so um yeah i i think it was like a little bit of timing a little bit of like passion for the space he it's not like he was i'm never gonna work for some that kind of like yeah and i think he'd seen how much value this could have um because he was at the game engines in the early days i think in some ways sees a ton of similarities um yeah but i think mostly similarities to what oh you guys have a day i got it yeah yeah um i i'd like to say most of it, though, was just how awesome our team is. That's great.

I think it's how awesome our team is, how much fun it is to work on crazy new tech. Yeah, and then he gets paid pretty well. Yeah, well, you see guys like that come on board early you know when you guys were fucking still almost teenagers and work on this kind of stuff and now you see where it already is a few years later and someone like that a core part of the team and everything it's that to me when you're talking to investors they got to be like oh damn you know like this is just this this didn't happen overnight these guys are plotting it's i mean that in a good way they are they're drawn out they see the vision here they're executing on it on a very bite by bite basis they're not over rushing things that

you know there's a level of maturity that i guess also comes with having already run a successful company when you were young and learning there you know so the comfortability from people throwing around checks not that they don't do that all the time but when they're buying into the founders they're like okay these guys get it yeah yeah yeah it's it's like you know it's funny I get like pretty frequently oh can tell even just like talk talking to like attorneys i think attorneys say it the most but like um the comment will just be thrown out there i'll say something like really light i won't think anything of it and the immediate response will be like oh god you've done this before yeah like really i just said i don't even realize what i said but um i guess that helps yeah you're and you're like a laid back speaker too it doesn't come from i know what i'm talking about you know like you're just like

you're almost like too carefree sometimes but you do it in a way that people are like okay he gets it oh all right yeah yeah and and it's it's it is it's disarming too you know you see a lot of founders out there who try to mimic and try to be steve jobs or something which they're not you know or they try to try to be a tough guy or say how it is or they have personality problems that lead them to not be able to communicate effectively. It's a strength when someone knows what they are and they know what they're not, and they seem to be pretty comfortable in both of those worlds. And so I'm sure a lot of these investors see that, and that's a part of the reason that they buy you and they buy the team. And Baker and Riley come across the same way in their own way.

There's no one who's like gung-ho this is what it is fuck you so you know you you sent an email that you shared with me that was a broad email and i asked you about this earlier today just like if it came up if if it could so i i have it up behind you would you mind actually reading it it's a it's a big tech big text but the reason i say that is because when i met you and then hanging out with you after we did the podcast and then also working on some stuff the thing that i've admired the most is you tend to have a very on most things a very long view in the room and you've practiced at that just like what i was just talking about you've built this company in pieces over time you're not you don't rush to things you

haven't rushed to this series a even you know it's not like you're not funded with some other things but you know there's a lot of people are like oh i can go get 25 million tomorrow let's do it you know you're willing to take that type of slow step into it and i felt like i don't know if you're trying to do this but i felt like this email really captured how you look at the impact here and what you're trying to do and i thought it was it was a good moment for you so i i feel like if you could share this with some people they'd kind of they'd know you even better than they know you listening to a podcast like this yeah yeah i mean do you want me to read it yeah do you want to read it what do you want you tell me you read it all right i'll read it all right sore team following

a big week of both adversity and great achievements i wanted to share a quick note to all i like to think everyone on the entire i like to think everyone on the entire team has gotten to know me at least a bit by now. Some might say I have completely irrational standards for everyone's personal performance, including my own, but also collectively as a whole. I'm a believer that in cases of true innovation, folks who tackle the impossible are not just innovating in matter, but also in mind. Definitions can be useful, so my definition of impossible is anything that has never been done and some or most believe will never be done

I believe that if we devote our time and energy to achieving things that lie within the realm of possibility We sometimes find ourselves achieving things that are beyond our wildest dreams in a literal sense four-minute miles interplanetary travel absolute fucking moonshots When we started this company we aim to shift the way fans interacted with athletes and entertainers. What began as a desire to create a more engaging experience for a niche group of people very quickly broadened into something that will have a lasting impact on every human being interacting with digital content throughout their daily lives. Why can't the digital and physical worlds coexist? Why must one travel to experience the desired atmosphere or level of intimacy when we can transform slash augment the space around them? How is the shift to 3D slash immersive happening so rapidly

without the community having nailed content slash rapid distribution? Why are solutions so expensive today and yet still leave viewers feeling as though there's a decade of building needed before the medium is ready for mainstream? As we look at the journey ahead, there will undoubtedly be change, sometimes rapid. We'll be scaling our team, building critical infrastructure, supporting and listening to our customers, and maintaining slash accelerating our pace of innovation as to outperform some of the largest tech companies in the world.

We will hit delays, we will have customers churn, and we will struggle at times. But through all the challenges, it's imperative we celebrate the wins. As it stands today, we've created the world's first-time volumetric streaming pipeline. We're empowering individuals, agencies, startups, and large companies to create content in an entirely new medium, something that, for many, felt completely inaccessible or unsustainable for years. In many ways, we're kick-starting a fundamental shift in communication, the way we connect with humans. A friend shed light on this

recently as he went through the Epcot ride in Disney. The entire ride centers around the evolution of communication, from cave writings to the printing press, radio, television, the first computer, etc. In his words, not mine, quote quote right now the ride stops when bill gates creates one of the first personal computers there's no doubt in my mind the sword team could be holding the key to the next room volumetric unquote i wake up each morning excited to step into battle with all of you and look forward to continuing to restructure and reshape the world's expectation from impossibility to inevitability. Cheers, Anthony. I think that when you hear that, first of all, most of that is very simply written, which is great.

So an idiot like me can read that and understand what you're getting at. Secondly, if I'm an investor reading that, not even just a normal person, I think I get you. I think I understand what you're in this for. I think that in a world where people's cynicism – I don't know if that's a word, but we'll go with it – can devolve very quickly into people are just looking to create something new to get their payday. I think you read something like that and you're like, no, this guy is a little crazy. That's good you know he's like he wants to do some cool as you would say yeah i mean you know it's funny that's like um that's one of the first like all team emails that i've sent like that. Um, and I think just with how chaotic everything has been, um,

I wanted to, I wanted to make sure that that got across, right? Like we're all here for the same reason. Um, that's why I'm here. That's why I wake up and do what i do that's why um yeah that that's that's like the fire um it's the today but it's also uh the tomorrow and what tomorrow can be um i i also think across the board we we are extremely critical, like really, really fucking critical. Um, I'm, I can be pretty bad at this, right? Like, uh, we'll set sky high expectations and if we fall a little bit short, it's still a huge fucking win, but it might not feel like a win because everybody's looking at it saying,

fuck, we didn't 3X this month. That's like a chaotic month. That's huge. Either way, it's a win, right? Somebody, one of the guys on our team sent me this yesterday and i kind of wrote uh something to the tune of it uh but his response to that email was you're saying yeah yeah on the on the mug so tossing rocks at the moon that what what he was saying um in response to that email was the way he looks at it and i completely agree

we're trying to throw a rock at mars if we hit the moon it's still throwing a rock at the moon when nobody else can get the rock off the ground yeah do we want to hit mars yeah if you hit the moon you still won or are winning right yeah i think that's like a good way to look at it and uh especially for everybody on our team i want to make sure that um that doesn't get lost in any of the craziness. Bro, it's been really cool. You just came in as a podcast guest to start, and the cool thing about this podcast is then usually I develop really good friendships with the people I don't know

before they come in here, but also getting a chance to work with you guys a little bit on some projects and be a little bit boots on the ground as far as compared to the average idiot. To see some of the stuff you're doing has been pretty unreal. It's exciting for me that all three of you are rolling through here on a rolling basis. I like that. I like that repetition as you're building here because people get to see, like,

when I look at my podcast, even though it doesn't have anywhere near the fucking, you know, consequences that this stuff does, I look at it in a similar though it doesn't have anywhere near the fucking consequences that this stuff does. I look at it in a similar way to which you approach stuff, which is I'm not thinking about the people who are listening to this the day it comes out. I am thinking about them. I want it to look great and be a perfect product. But I'm really thinking about the people who listen to this 10 years from now. How's this time capsule going to look? This is not just some current event you know you and me talking about what's going on in the world

though those are cool too as time capsules to see what people were thinking this is like i'm getting you guys along the process and i've said that before but it's it's a beautiful thing to me and i really appreciate you allowing it to happen and and riley and Baker as well to to share this kind of thing but I specifically wanted to bring you in for what will be the one year anniversary episode of starting this podcast this is going to come out on September 15th which will be a year to the day since I launched because for me also to kind of track the timeline of things, I already mentioned today that the podcast we did was a big turning point, and it was. But also, to get this kind of content where it's like, yo, there's a founder on the cutting edge of something right now trying to do some crazy shit that's going to have a lot of consequences regardless of who ends up taking it to to the mainstream it's like i think there's a lot of value in people experiencing that like they're sitting at the table here with us and the final point would be the whole point of a medium like

this where we just talk and you can't really fake it it's fucking three hours is to give people a dose of like they're talking with their friends in a world where we're moving farther and farther away from humanity something like this sitting in somebody's ear to take up three hours of their day while they're going about things makes them feel more connected to people because as i said they feel like they're sitting here with us they feel like they're a part of the conversation maybe they're just not saying anything and that's that's an exciting part of this entire podcast to me like everything that's happened so far because the world is zigging and we're finding a way to zag here and we're doing something that

not a lot of people at least in this medium are doing i don't see a lot of long-form conversations with whoever the fuck um so that's special to me but it's also not possible without the people who come from all different perspectives coming on here and sharing them and being vulnerable about it and you've now done it twice which is great and it's on something this serious and so that's why to me i wanted to have this make sense as the and it was a no-brainer to be the one year. It's kind of like a little bit of the story of the podcast so far. So thank you for doing it. Of course.

Yeah. Like I said, it's been a blast. And I think we'll see some pretty crazy progression on both sides. Okay. Rapidly. Next time you're in here, maybe like six months from now something like that i want to be able to show some of these goddamn products too that we've been capturing sounds good that you've been captured yeah yeah but some of the ones i know about and stuff so oh yeah we too

there's yeah it'll be really cool to announce one from this one too yeah yeah that one's gonna be good that one's gonna be good that one's gonna be good but i want to i want to do it i want to be able to show people on the screen too if we can i don't know if we'll be that far but at least be able to say like all right we did this capture here's what to look for or whatever yeah i think that'll be really cool for people cool sounds good all right brother all right man thanks dude of course everybody everybody else you know what it is give Give it a thought. Get back to it. Peace.